HP Increase/Melee Popularity - Problem?

This post is in reference to patch on '2019-11-8 Friday' where "player hp have been raised."

After playing for the past couple of months, spectating some streams, talking to friends who competitively 8v8 and observing the groups I've seen running around in-game - I have noticed a massive meta shift to tanks/melee. I am not here to argue or debate anyone who disagrees with the melee uptick in popularity. Without advanced analytics that I do not have access to, it's purely speculation on my part. However, I am sure the HP increase has made tanks stronger/more viable than casters.

So, here's my thought:

The HP increase was a Phoenix-specific change, so why can't the re-balancing of tanks/casters be a Phoenix-specific change, as well?

What if a form of speedwarp was added to one caster per realm? It can be a RA for 10, 15 or 20+ points or be placed deep in a spec line. It doesn't have to function the same as Live, it can have changed values (range, frequency, hp, cast time, etc.). And with tanks being so popular, there's no shortage of easy ways to kill/negate speedwarps.

I am sure this will be a highly unpopular opinion, but I wanted to at least try to start a dialog about the this HP increase and/or casters viability.

Wed 19 Feb 2020 2:29 PM by Razur Ur

HP buff have not rly a greater advantage for Tank Groups. High RR Caster Group is very strong on this server because of debuff nuke assist. You need vs Alb Caster
Group a perfect tank setup for winning the fight. my meaning is to nerf disease throught a immunitytimer and debuff value reduce or the server bringing CL Ability
for all, so we get more hybrid setup popularity.

Wed 19 Feb 2020 2:42 PM by thirian24

The change was meant to actually give tanks a chance to compete in RvR since caster groups were the meta and absolutely wrecking. Now, tanks can compete and are actually wanted in grps and not just for peeling. Giving everyone spec AF back in the day, already hurt tank grps from the beginning.

It's funny that you want some wonky speed warps to shift that meta back.

How about giving light tanks a proper charge? Lol

Wed 19 Feb 2020 2:55 PM by Razur Ur

The Caster Meta have never ending ;-) but that is boring and the reason for more Tankgroups.

Wed 19 Feb 2020 3:54 PM by bigne88

I think the option was to put back charge, so its fine.
Pure tank groups are still hard to play effectively against same skill caster party, who just need to kite a bit longer and use more mana pots.

What the hp buff changed was the hybrid setup meta, wich is fun to play and really effective.
Alb hybrid shine on this and thats why many 8v8 players went back to alb.

In reaponse, hib melee train can be effective thanks to VW tools.

Good ol' mid tank train, well, while the tanks press W and spam anytimers, the supports needs to be on the ball, othetwise their mighty dps will just be a sturdy crowling mass of RPs.

Wed 19 Feb 2020 6:36 PM by Tamtrooper

You certainly see more tanks now with the change and I, for one, don't see that as a problem. I'm not the most educated player in the 8 v 8 scene but imo this game has always been Dark Age of Castalot and the change has not shattered that dynamic. In my opinion, the meta still favors the caster but perhaps not as much as before which, as I see it, is good for the game.

Thu 20 Feb 2020 1:20 PM by idknemore

Gotcha, so everyone is cool with tanks being popular and stronger because they're "easier to play," even though they still get stomped when fighting good caster groups. I think that's more of a personal skill issue than a class balance issue, no? Should the game be balanced around what is perceived as easier to play, or what happens when Bad Player X fights Good Player Y? Just because you're fighting someone of a greater skill level, doesn't mean you need a stronger class/play style to compete - that's a you issue, not a class/balance issue.

What about tanks vs. casters when the skill levels are the same? I don't think that plays out how you think it should in your head.

Thu 20 Feb 2020 2:19 PM by Razur Ur

You meaning rly tank setup is easy to play vs caster groups? wtf :-)

Thu 20 Feb 2020 2:41 PM by ZioRed

Sure, when they'll give back the correct Charge RA to light tanks, that is CC immunity not an endurance reduction/whateveritisnow. Charge existed for a reason, here it's basically unuseful in my opinion (I didn't get it in any light tanks of my own). Here you have no chance against casters' CCs except for SoS and Purge, I don't even know why they decided to change the use of Charge that is the best counter-action to CCs for light tanks.

Thu 20 Feb 2020 3:16 PM by idknemore

ZioRed wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 2:41 PM
Sure, when they'll give back the correct Charge RA to light tanks, that is CC immunity not an endurance reduction/whateveritisnow. Charge existed for a reason, here it's basically unuseful in my opinion (I didn't get it in any light tanks of my own). Here you have no chance against casters' CCs except for SoS and Purge, I don't even know why they decided to change the use of Charge that is the best counter-action to CCs for light tanks.

Let's trade the correct version of Charge for a speedwarp?

Thu 20 Feb 2020 3:18 PM by idknemore

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 2:19 PM
You meaning rly tank setup is easy to play vs caster groups? wtf :-)

No, that is not what I mean at all.

Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:04 PM by Azuell

idknemore wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 3:16 PM
ZioRed wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 2:41 PM
Sure, when they'll give back the correct Charge RA to light tanks, that is CC immunity not an endurance reduction/whateveritisnow. Charge existed for a reason, here it's basically unuseful in my opinion (I didn't get it in any light tanks of my own). Here you have no chance against casters' CCs except for SoS and Purge, I don't even know why they decided to change the use of Charge that is the best counter-action to CCs for light tanks.

Let's trade the correct version of Charge for a speedwarp?

And remove det.

Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:07 PM by ZioRed

Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:04 PM
And remove det.

Both Determination and Charge are official RAs, both created for a balancing reason, you guys are trying to create another game that is not DAoC.

Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:08 PM by thirian24

Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:04 PM
idknemore wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 3:16 PM
ZioRed wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 2:41 PM
Sure, when they'll give back the correct Charge RA to light tanks, that is CC immunity not an endurance reduction/whateveritisnow. Charge existed for a reason, here it's basically unuseful in my opinion (I didn't get it in any light tanks of my own). Here you have no chance against casters' CCs except for SoS and Purge, I don't even know why they decided to change the use of Charge that is the best counter-action to CCs for light tanks.

Let's trade the correct version of Charge for a speedwarp?

And remove det.

🤣🤣🤣

Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:29 PM by Azuell

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:08 PM
Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:04 PM
idknemore wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 3:16 PM
Let's trade the correct version of Charge for a speedwarp?

And remove det.

🤣🤣🤣

Charge, Purge, and Det is too much. You might as well not even have cc at that point. Didn't charge have a relatively short cool down as well? Also what speed did charge give you? Or did it vary based on the RA level?

How do you counter that as a caster? The only thing I can think of is a MoC LT caster. That can be used every 10 minutes compared to every 3 (?) minutes for charge.

Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:32 PM by ZioRed

Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:29 PM
Charge, Purge, and Det is too much. You might as well not even have cc at that point. Didn't charge have a relatively short cool down as well? Also what speed did charge give you? Or did it vary based on the RA level?

Charge is speed 3, cooldown 15min/10min/5min/3min/90sec
Realm Abilities table: https://darkageofcamelot.com/content/realm-abilities
Either you're playing DAoC or you're playing another game, no way.

Counter-act as caster? REALLY? You're able to cast from 1500 loc (if not bolt at 2000+) and can kite ofc, while as melee we can only hit when upon you. For your understanding of casters, the light tanks would never have a chance to win against a caster (as really it is now for light tanks, without Charge, except for a GvG).

That is why most of 8v8 teams roll Hib or Alb casters meta, besides the insta-amnesia of bard. No fight lasts for more than 2 mins unless both teams are pretty skilled, that is 99% of fights lasts for lesser than 2 mins (considering adders and skill), so way lesser than Charge 5 at 90sec (I never got Charge 5 until very high RR because there are many useful RAs to get earlier, Charge 2-3 was enough).

Though I'm of course against the HP increase that they made (and of course against Charge ability change), because it unbalanced a bit above all the soloer fights that are now more difficult to handle with all the buff/heal potions/items available. And anyway I'm also against a speed warp to casters which would add even more difficulty to such soloers.

Thu 20 Feb 2020 7:03 PM by Razur Ur

Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:04 PM
idknemore wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 3:16 PM
ZioRed wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 2:41 PM
Sure, when they'll give back the correct Charge RA to light tanks, that is CC immunity not an endurance reduction/whateveritisnow. Charge existed for a reason, here it's basically unuseful in my opinion (I didn't get it in any light tanks of my own). Here you have no chance against casters' CCs except for SoS and Purge, I don't even know why they decided to change the use of Charge that is the best counter-action to CCs for light tanks.

Let's trade the correct version of Charge for a speedwarp?

And remove det.

and remove all hybrid tanks thx for game gg ;-).

Thu 20 Feb 2020 7:06 PM by Razur Ur

Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:29 PM
thirian24 wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:08 PM
Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:04 PM
And remove det.

🤣🤣🤣

Charge, Purge, and Det is too much. You might as well not even have cc at that point. Didn't charge have a relatively short cool down as well? Also what speed did charge give you? Or did it vary based on the RA level?

How do you counter that as a caster? The only thing I can think of is a MoC LT caster. That can be used every 10 minutes compared to every 3 (?) minutes for charge.

Kiting and better position in fight? you can tanks peeling, mezzing or rooting and have with debuff nuke insane dmg!

Thu 20 Feb 2020 11:36 PM by Azuell

You can't kite a tank that used charge...

That's my point, what does a caster have to counter charge?

Fri 21 Feb 2020 2:46 AM by gotwqqd

Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 11:36 PM
You can't kite a tank that used charge...

That's my point, what does a caster have to counter charge?

Well maybe that is the fix
Melee snare overrides charge

Fri 21 Feb 2020 7:37 AM by Razur Ur

Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 11:36 PM
You can't kite a tank that used charge...

That's my point, what does a caster have to counter charge?

On this server works charge not ;-).

Fri 21 Feb 2020 1:21 PM by idknemore

Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 11:36 PM
You can't kite a tank that used charge...

That's my point, what does a caster have to counter charge?

That's what I am saying, implement some form of speedwarp. Easy solution.

People nonstop crying about Charge is laughable at best.

Fri 21 Feb 2020 1:44 PM by Sepplord

but...the charge you guys are discussing about that needs a counter isn't ingame...so currently there is no need for speedwarps?
Afaik it specifically isn't ingame BECAUSE there would be no counter without speedwarps, and speedwarps are unwanted.

The whole post started with some statement about HP-increase buffing melees and nerfing casters. Afaik that was the whole point. So what is actually the problem existant NOW that needs to be adressed. A properly played caster will run away from tanks all the time and they can't reach the caster without external help.

Fri 21 Feb 2020 1:53 PM by Ele

ZioRed wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Feb 2020 5:32 PM
That is why most of 8v8 teams roll Hib or Alb casters meta, besides the insta-amnesia of bard. No fight lasts for more than 2 mins unless both teams are pretty skilled, that is 99% of fights lasts for lesser than 2 mins (considering adders and skill), so way lesser than Charge 5 at 90sec (I never got Charge 5 until very high RR because there are many useful RAs to get earlier, Charge 2-3 was enough).

Just a quick correction: Most GvG groups you encounter nowadays - at least from an EU prime time perspective - are tank or hybrid groups. A lot of fights last for more than 5 mins, longest my group encountered in the last two weeks was about 10 minutes vs. a hib tanker (we lost xD). Caster groups are of course still around and high rr casters can still burn people down in the blink of an eye, but it is not like a few months ago when literally every 8vs8 you had vs albs or hibs was a caster group.

Fri 21 Feb 2020 2:14 PM by idknemore

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Feb 2020 1:44 PM
but...the charge you guys are discussing about that needs a counter isn't ingame...so currently there is no need for speedwarps?
Afaik it specifically isn't ingame BECAUSE there would be no counter without speedwarps, and speedwarps are unwanted.

No, I was simply using speedwarp as a counter point to people randomly bringing up Charge. Adding Charge to the current state of the game would completely break things. People are turning this in to a "give tanks charge" thread which is asinine. And completely ignoring the fact that you need to be high RR on casters to do what everyone in this thread THINKS happens. Low rank casters do not just instantly blow things up on this patch. Ever.

Not to mention, if you didn't get high rank on casters before the HP change, you're already playing at a natural disadvantage. And if the HP balancing change was made around people playing RR10+ casters (because that's clearly what everyone is bringing up in this thread), and not realizing there are low rank casters who are playing the game, it shows that the HP change was incorrectly made.

-

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Feb 2020 1:44 PM
A properly played caster will run away from tanks all the time and they can't reach the caster without external help.

A properly played tank will have Det and use Purge all the time and they can't cast on the tank without external help.

Fri 21 Feb 2020 2:21 PM by Sepplord

Ok i fully agree on the first part. Bringing in NF-Charge doesn't make sense and would be horribly OP for the lighttanks

I disagree on the high-RR argument though. Low-RR tanks can be more easily CCed. Balancing low-RR casters VS high-RR tanks is just as unreasonable as the otherway around

Det and Purge don't teleport the tanks onto casters.
Tanks can't reach casters without external help, casters can't kill tanks without external help (they get at least one freecast out before they must start prekiting though)

Fri 21 Feb 2020 4:02 PM by idknemore

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Feb 2020 2:21 PM
Ok i fully agree on the first part. Bringing in NF-Charge doesn't make sense and would be horribly OP for the lighttanks

I disagree on the high-RR argument though. Low-RR tanks can be more easily CCed. Balancing low-RR casters VS high-RR tanks is just as unreasonable as the otherway around

Det and Purge don't teleport the tanks onto casters.
Tanks can't reach casters without external help, casters can't kill tanks without external help (they get at least one freecast out before they must start prekiting though)

Casters have to stop moving to do anything, thus enabling tanks to close the gap. You trying to theory craft a fight scenario, considering that there are an infinite amount of variables seems silly. Are we talking about 8v8? 1v1? Pure solo? 3v3? 5vX? I see your point, but I am not sure it's necessarily fair. :<

Furthermore, Det is cheaper here. So, lower rank tanks do factually have some sort of an advantage. Plus their increased HP.

(Please note: I think Det's RSP cost being cheaper is 100% the play and really like that change a lot)