50 slash or thrust scout - Phoenix Freeshard

Has anyone tried this? Just wondering its viability is all.

Thinking 50 weapon, 42 shield and some mastery of blocking. I know there were some mean melee scouts back in the day.

Sat 18 Aug 2018 10:28 AM by Cadebrennus

I was looking into this myself, especially for testing purposes.

First, look at growth rates in the styles. This site is pretty accurate;

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/albion_styles.html

Next, look at style EFFECTS, and what you need to fire off the styles. Alb seems to be lacking here in variety and effectiveness (probably because it was the realm that was designed first). Look at things like bleeds (plenty of those, and some really good ones), stuns, hinder (snare), and attack speed reducers (ASR). The sites are hit and miss when it comes to style effects so your best bet is to create a level 1 Scout and just /train and then push the Thrust or Slash slider to 50 (one at a time) and read the styles as they appear to get the best understanding of what style effects are available to you and their prerequisites.

Finally, look at armor tables to see which will be more effective against your chosen targets. Are you planning on fighting mostly stealthers? Then you have to choose one realm (Hib or Mid) that you want to be strong against and which you want to be weak against. Then choose Slash or Thrust based on that decision.

http://camelot.allakhazam.com/weapon_effect.html

Sat 18 Aug 2018 11:58 AM by ninjaminge

only advice i can give on this is 50 + 11 etc Bow
then up to you were to go from there but being a high melee scout = death alot
Plus Bow does alot more dmg and hits more then old daoc . no more miss fumble miss miss

Sat 18 Aug 2018 1:35 PM by Cadebrennus

ninjaminge wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Aug 2018 11:58 AM
only advice i can give on this is 50 + 11 etc Bow
then up to you were to go from there but being a high melee scout = death alot
Plus Bow does alot more dmg and hits more then old daoc . no more miss fumble miss miss

Good advice for getting ranged kills (although I think 50 bow is too much) but the problem with a pure archery spec is that it leads to complaints about not being "balanced" against other archers melee.

If someone wants melee they have to spec for it.

Sun 19 Aug 2018 12:05 AM by Tristaluna

I wondered the same to myself so I started to think about it and I made some theories:

Good things:
- You can make it Highlander as I did for Slash and dmgs.
- You have a pretty good melee resistance
- Ignore Pain
- Anytime Stun

But the bad things are more and it doesn't worth to spend months and do RR painfully cause:
- Stealthers have purge usually
- DPS with 1h compared to a Dual like Rangers is very low
- No self buffs (requires a lot of pots to be more or less, more less, buffed like a ranger or hunter)
- No dmg add/hunter's dog
- No 2h available
- No MoS (like latest versions of daoc) means you are a blind man looking for a PA in the middle of the street, you see the hiddens at 150 range

So, at the end, I thought that if you are looking for a stealther tanky, able to slash stun and do real dps you must run a Minstrel.

Chain armor, speed, more utilities, stun insta, dds, IP etc.. It has the same good things but you are not bound to a single chance of victory

Mon 20 Aug 2018 2:51 AM by Kha

Tristaluna wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Aug 2018 12:05 AM
So, at the end, I thought that if you are looking for a stealther tanky, able to slash stun and do real dps you must run a Minstrel.

Chain armor, speed, more utilities, stun insta, dds, IP etc.. It has the same good things but you are not bound to a single chance of victory

Not sure about that,
Don't get me wrong, there are some excellent stealth strels, however ... not the strongest tanky sneak.
Training points are limited, if you train stealth high enough you have to give up on some instrument or melee skills.
Also minstrel dps is the same as a paladin melee wise .. You have good DDs though, but slow reuse time.

Look into melee rangers

Dual wield, anytime stun (side but with practice ...) can use poisoned weapons at this patch level... IP ... AP ?
No shield, but a good evade. Some personnal buffs etc.

It's NOT OF, but here is a fun link :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsbHwbJCah4
It's a beast.

Mon 20 Aug 2018 8:29 AM by Cadebrennus

Slash has better growth rates but Thrust has better style effects. If it wasn't for Slam being available then I would say that Scout has the worst access to style lines across all three archers. With the Shield line their damage output is the lowest however I think they have the highest utility in game of all three archers if played well and as something other than pure snipers.

Mon 20 Aug 2018 2:09 PM by Magesty

I'd advise against rolling a pure melee scout.

This is like playing a Reaver but opting to go thrust/crush/slash instead of flexible. Sure, it will work sometimes as you are a level 50 char and are capable of doing damage. Unfortunately most of the time it will be miserable and you'll have a lot of situations where you will be going, "if only I had a spec line that was an extremely long ranged, high damage 2h weapon..."

Sure you can play with other stealthers and slam for them. Maybe even do 120 a swing with your melee and block some hits via guard, but it is going to generally be a sad and painful existence. Three out of the four enemy stealth classes you will be facing dual wield and that halves your chance to block. It is going to take a long time to actually kill anyone so you'll have to pick targets off the beaten path since the usual choke points are going to be rife with heartless adders. I'd imagine to be any level of successful in 1v1s you'd have to have someone envenom your weapons and cheese out wins that way.

I'm a big fan of weird specs and exploring off the beaten path, but this one is more like stepping off a cliff. No harm in trying it though, just play a Saracen and you can respec into archery comfortably if you need to.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 5:20 PM by phixion

I've been looking at Highlander Scout and I'm tempted. I had a Saracen Scout at this patch level and with 18 Thrust spec I got absolutely destroyed when my target got in to melee range.

I wouldn't spec pure melee, but I certainly wouldn't spec 50 Bow with a Scout.

I'd probably go Highlander, lose a bit of Bow damage, gain a bit of HP and Melee damage, but be a bit more rounded overall.

Looking at 40 Bow/42 Shield/34 Slash/35 Stealth.

Norse have the same base stats and you see plenty of Norse Hunters, even though their Spear is 50/50 Str/Dex.

Sun 2 Sep 2018 1:48 AM by Niix

If you want a pure melee scout, you might as well be a 50DW slash infil

Wed 5 Sep 2018 2:20 AM by Komaf

Archers don't get physical defense RA. This is what made melee rangers, for example, viable, or 2 handed hunters who with haste buff and shaman buffs (*during the buff bot era) were sick.

But yeah, Srit the keen ranger back when with druid buffs used to run around with like PD4 or so and just destroy.

Also, live daoc was about dex over strength due to strengh./con debuff poison..but here, everyone's screwed without a purge up because it's weapon skill debuff...

just some food for thought but archer go archery - if you really love melee then ranger every time on this patch but again, I'd do hybrid, not just melee...meaning 35 bow plus high pathfinding for the better damage than say higher bow with lower pf...

Google it up, lots of specs out there but no physical defense = no melee.

Thu 6 Sep 2018 12:14 PM by imissswg

Magesty wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Aug 2018 2:09 PM
I'd imagine to be any level of successful in 1v1s you'd have to have someone envenom your weapons and cheese out wins that way.

Can't do that here. Only assassins cam use poison weapons.

https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1932

Thu 6 Sep 2018 12:21 PM by Magesty

imissswg wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Sep 2018 12:14 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Aug 2018 2:09 PM
I'd imagine to be any level of successful in 1v1s you'd have to have someone envenom your weapons and cheese out wins that way.

Can't do that here. Only assassins cam use poison weapons.

https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1932

That post is from before the change.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 4:51 AM by depth

I don't know if this is at all relevant to this discussion... But my favorite hunter spec I ever ran was 50 sword 44 spear few points in bow, almost no BC. I enjoyed the back stun from spear followed up with some heavy hitting Ragnarok's from Sword, as well as the spears side dehaste style. Also worth mentioning, I was always duo with my brother who was specced into bow, so our setup was entirely built on me being tanky and having access to many snares and stuns.

Now, with that being said, I don't see very many Slash styles that would really augment or justify not just getting more weapon skill by speccing higher in Thrust. Blackslash is a great backstyle. Being able to switch damage types vs armor is incredibly useful. But the kicker for me would be that Slash would need that extra Ace in the hole style like a backsnare or something along those lines, to justify giving up so much when Thrust is already so good in Albion. Basiliskfang is your bread and butter, but it will be an uphill battle, especially if you're a soloer, to pull a split spec melee scout off.

Also worth mentioning:
Scouts, for whatever reason, do not have access to the Avoid Pain realm ability in classic like Hunters and Rangers both will (maybe because they have a shield? idk). This is an extremely powerful ability on anyone entering melee combat. It's essentially a personal BoF that lasts 60 SECONDS! Each point into this realm ability gives you 10% Absorption (30% at max level) and is on only a 15 minutes cooldown. It almost forces you to try and disengage, which then opens them up to use ranged attacks that you will now not have access to. I really don't know anything about stealthers but maybe there's something in here useful. It sounds like a funky idea and I do hope you try it out.

Cheers

Sun 23 Dec 2018 1:10 PM by Rom_1

With 2 mates, we tried several spec/race for scout :

1. Saracen full bow
- 50 bow, 42 shield, 35 stealth, 20 thrust
Pros : You can OS a caster with bow, dmg are stable.
Cons : When your slam is purged, just pray or run.

2. Briton full weapon (Slash)
- 50 slash, 42 shield, 35 stealth, 20 bow
Pros : Your ennemies are surprised to see you rush them. You really deal dmg, and the slash weapon styles are useful (and nice against leather)
Cons : Bow dmg are low, no rapid fire, but still is dmg dealing before you begin the fight

3. Saracen full weapon (Thrust)
- Same spec than 2. but replace slash with thrust
Pros : As saracen, you have high dex, so best attributes for thrust. Level 50 thrust weapon still has a 9 seconds stun on evade
Cons : You Don't really need that 9 seconds stun as you have slam, and after that, you Don't have the versatile aspect of the slash styles. Also Thrust is not as efficient against leather, or reinforced armor

4. Briton hybrid (the way I went to at the end)
- 35 bow, 42 slam, 41 slash, 36 stealth
Pros : You deal decent dmg with bow, have rapid fire 1, and you deal decent dmg with slash
Cons : Didnt notice a problem with this spec that would make me think the other ones are better.

Have fun at the release!!

Sun 23 Dec 2018 7:41 PM by phixion

Scout will always hit like a wet noodle in melee.

Mon 24 Dec 2018 11:59 AM by chois

44 thrust/ 42 shield/35 bow / 32 stealth it should be the better way, thrust is better simply cause u have ASR 34%, doesnt exist in blade, u ll probably run with charge af+d/q so better damage in thrust, moreover d/q is needed for shield so....
And no scout melee is not too weak
Skairipa (ranger) Tasya (hunter) Soliseth (scout)

Mon 24 Dec 2018 3:00 PM by phixion

It doesn't really matter how high you take melee lines, the damage doesn't increase that much.

There's a reason most slash Scouts end up at 29 slash, anything higher brings very little to the table for points spent.

Wed 26 Dec 2018 5:05 AM by Salviati

depth wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Oct 2018 4:51 AM
I don't know if this is at all relevant to this discussion... But my favorite hunter spec I ever ran was 50 sword 44 spear few points in bow, almost no BC. I enjoyed the back stun from spear followed up with some heavy hitting Ragnarok's from Sword, as well as the spears side dehaste style. Also worth mentioning, I was always duo with my brother who was specced into bow, so our setup was entirely built on me being tanky and having access to many snares and stuns.

Now, with that being said, I don't see very many Slash styles that would really augment or justify not just getting more weapon skill by speccing higher in Thrust. Blackslash is a great backstyle. Being able to switch damage types vs armor is incredibly useful. But the kicker for me would be that Slash would need that extra Ace in the hole style like a backsnare or something along those lines, to justify giving up so much when Thrust is already so good in Albion. Basiliskfang is your bread and butter, but it will be an uphill battle, especially if you're a soloer, to pull a split spec melee scout off.

Also worth mentioning:
Scouts, for whatever reason, do not have access to the Avoid Pain realm ability in classic like Hunters and Rangers both will (maybe because they have a shield? idk). This is an extremely powerful ability on anyone entering melee combat. It's essentially a personal BoF that lasts 60 SECONDS! Each point into this realm ability gives you 10% Absorption (30% at max level) and is on only a 15 minutes cooldown. It almost forces you to try and disengage, which then opens them up to use ranged attacks that you will now not have access to. I really don't know anything about stealthers but maybe there's something in here useful. It sounds like a funky idea and I do hope you try it out.

Cheers

Hmm, that's a shame about AP. Sounds like the admins feel like they fixed the Paladins and the problems in general in Albion. It just goes to show that the people running this show don't really care about Albion or simply don't understand the issues confronting it. Oh well, It'll be fun for a year or two and fade like the others. Even the free shards are getting old at this point. Nobody seems to understand what made the game fun and how to present that with modern QoL changes. Albion will once again be a zerg-or-nothing non factor with an elite 8 man or two who run caster groups. Everything else will just be alt runners and Sidi raids.

I'd play Albion if the devs had any understanding of the realm or how to fix it.

Wed 26 Dec 2018 4:32 PM by Dimir

Salviati wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Dec 2018 5:05 AM
Hmm, that's a shame about AP. Sounds like the admins feel like they fixed the Paladins and the problems in general in Albion. It just goes to show that the people running this show don't really care about Albion or simply don't understand the issues confronting it. Oh well, It'll be fun for a year or two and fade like the others. Even the free shards are getting old at this point. Nobody seems to understand what made the game fun and how to present that with modern QoL changes. Albion will once again be a zerg-or-nothing non factor with an elite 8 man or two who run caster groups. Everything else will just be alt runners and Sidi raids.

I'd play Albion if the devs had any understanding of the realm or how to fix it.

Pretty sure no on gets Avoid Pain with NF RAs. I think that post you quoted was before they changed to the new RAs.

Wed 26 Dec 2018 5:47 PM by Salviati

Perhaps, but the point still stands, eespecially with their latest comments on the Paladin. It's just senselessly mind boggling.

Thu 27 Dec 2018 2:13 AM by Dimir

Salviati wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Dec 2018 5:47 PM
Perhaps, but the point still stands, eespecially with their latest comments on the Paladin. It's just senselessly mind boggling.

What were those? Paladins seem pretty good being able to get Det, have the larger endo chant and are moved up a damage table.

Thu 27 Dec 2018 5:08 PM by Salviati

Dimir wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Dec 2018 2:13 AM
Salviati wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Dec 2018 5:47 PM
Perhaps, but the point still stands, eespecially with their latest comments on the Paladin. It's just senselessly mind boggling.

What were those? Paladins seem pretty good being able to get Det, have the larger endo chant and are moved up a damage table.

Damage wasn't the issue and is insignificant. The issue was being CC'd once out of the fight and not having any further utility. These solutions only go to show that the devs have no idea what they're doing. Rather, these solutions alone. They may get some determination now, but then what? So what? It doesn't even add up to a half measure. Endurance potions still delete them from the game and leave the class as one which is critical to the realm's PvE interest while being rejected in the other half. Albion tank groups still won't be successful unless the skill gap is so disparate that composition doesn't even matter. There's just way too much of a utility gap. The paladin needs more utility, whether through a celerity chant, a passive endo buff which opens access to resist chants or even perhaps an ablative absorb buff which would play into the Albion theme.

Albion is still going to be the overpopulated bastard realm that can only zerg to PvP, with 1 or 2 elite caster groups going and a shit load of stealters.

I would like to play albion, but I've known DAoC for almost 18 years now and I know where this goes and why it's going to go that way and they've made no fixes to address it. I will not play Hib, so it looks like another server which will break down to Mid dominance. It's a shame, but my first objective is fun, and shitty design dictates my avenues for fun.

Thu 27 Dec 2018 5:46 PM by Dimir

Salviati wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Dec 2018 5:08 PM
Damage wasn't the issue and is insignificant. The issue was being CC'd once out of the fight and not having any further utility. These solutions only go to show that the devs have no idea what they're doing. Rather, these solutions alone. They may get some determination now, but then what? So what? It doesn't even add up to a half measure. Endurance potions still delete them from the game and leave the class as one which is critical to the realm's PvE interest while being rejected in the other half. Albion tank groups still won't be successful unless the skill gap is so disparate that composition doesn't even matter. There's just way too much of a utility gap. The paladin needs more utility, whether through a celerity chant, a passive endo buff which opens access to resist chants or even perhaps an ablative absorb buff which would play into the Albion theme.

Albion is still going to be the overpopulated bastard realm that can only zerg to PvP, with 1 or 2 elite caster groups going and a shit load of stealters.

I would like to play albion, but I've known DAoC for almost 18 years now and I know where this goes and why it's going to go that way and they've made no fixes to address it. I will not play Hib, so it looks like another server which will break down to Mid dominance. It's a shame, but my first objective is fun, and shitty design dictates my avenues for fun.

I get where you're coming from but I think getting access to Det (even without Stoicism) is a really big deal. I played quite a bit with a EU guild on Uthgard that ran a Pally and wrecked the competition. I can't image how much easier it would have been if they had Det 5 and a bigger endo chant range. They also now get 2.5 spec points (I just read this and don't remember it being on the wiki before) which doesn't really address your concerns but it's something. Their AF chant stacking with other buffs is a huge boost though as that is a lot of extra melee mitigation. It's not all doom and gloom