Water & swimming suggestion

Started 6 Oct 2019
by Chaskha
in Suggestions
Bring back Master of Swimming, water should slow you down A LOT in normal situation.

It's a magic world so let's not make it painful as it would be for real but
* Speed record in water (8.88km/h = 50m in 20.26s) is roughly a quarter of the speed of speed record field sprinting (37.58 km/h = 100m in 9.58s).
* DAoC is full of superhuman able to swim with armors and shit, let's double it so water doesn't hinder to 75% but only to 50% hindering.
* Some swim faster than others, bring back the RA so MoS diminishes the hindering even more

Default: water 50% hindering
MoSw I [cost 1] -10% (water 40% hindering),
MoSw II [cost 1] -20% (water 30% hindering)
MoSw III [cost 2] -30% (water 20% hindering)

In the end, water, this way would still slow everyone by 20% minimum if MoSw III but going to MoSw III would only cost 4 points.

Now, it would be an opportunity to introduce a new skill to give to a class which had less appeal per realm: the mermaid song I, II, III, IV removing respectively 5%, 10%, 15% and 20% from the water hindering.
I would give that to classes which cannot climb walls, are not stealthers and don't already have neither the best speed nor the average one.
Maybe give a bit of appeal to the warden of hibernia, to the paladin of albion and to the warrior of midgard?

As always, phrase your opinion like a grown-up, argument both in favor or against without yelling at each other or calling you names, you are not 8 years olds afaik.
Mon 7 Oct 2019 7:54 AM by Sepplord
i believe it would create either a situation where it is another must have RA, like tireless/longwind or something that allows castergroups to cheese even more in water by being able to kite melees even better.

Passive movementspeed is just too strong to properly balance as RA without making it mandatory and mandatory RAs just increase the gap between low and high-RRs even further / increase the RR at which point people can start making actual decisions and not just follow the mandatory RA-plan
Mon 7 Oct 2019 8:23 AM by Chaskha
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 7 Oct 2019 7:54 AM
i believe it would create either a situation where it is another must have RA, like tireless/longwind or something that allows caster groups to cheese even more in water by being able to kite melees even better.

Passive movement speed is just too strong to properly balance as RA without making it mandatory and mandatory RAs just increase the gap between low and high-RRs even further / increase the RR at which point people can start making actual decisions and not just follow the mandatory RA-plan
I've come to value your opinion because you argument and lay bases of your thinking. Perfect, it's true indeed, that would be like tireless/lw, 2 mandatory RPs and that would force people to spend a total of 6 points instead of 2 before making other choices. Maybe set this on 2 points and 2 levels only then. Plus fighting in water or running away in water is somewhat of a choice and people could decide it's worth to cross the bridges instead.

Or the whole thing could be attached to Song of Sirens or it might be a new buff that can be crafted or be given to another buffing class?

I'm not adamant on it being a RA, I just wish something is done so water hinders a lot but there are some counter measures to the hindering.
Mon 7 Oct 2019 8:31 AM by gotwqqd
Chaskha wrote:
Mon 7 Oct 2019 8:23 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 7 Oct 2019 7:54 AM
i believe it would create either a situation where it is another must have RA, like tireless/longwind or something that allows caster groups to cheese even more in water by being able to kite melees even better.

Passive movement speed is just too strong to properly balance as RA without making it mandatory and mandatory RAs just increase the gap between low and high-RRs even further / increase the RR at which point people can start making actual decisions and not just follow the mandatory RA-plan
I've come to value your opinion because you argument and lay bases of your thinking. Perfect, it's true indeed, that would be like tireless/lw, 2 mandatory RPs and that would force people to spend a total of 6 points instead of 2 before making other choices. Maybe set this on 2 points and 2 levels only then. Plus fighting in water or running away in water is somewhat of a choice and people could decide it's worth to cross the bridges instead.

Or the whole thing could be attached to Song of Sirens or it might be a new buff that can be crafted or be given to another buffing class?

I'm not adamant on it being a RA, I just wish something is done so water hinders a lot but there are some counter measures to the hindering.
The counter is not going into it
I don’t see a reason to have RA for quicker water movement

Not everything needs a “counter”
Mon 7 Oct 2019 1:38 PM by Azrael
If you can not counter it, boat drop offs would be a deathtrap and if you try to cross a bridge you get a warm welcome from you local stealthgroups. If you can counter it it would just be a mandatory like sepplord mentioned.
Mon 7 Oct 2019 5:05 PM by Roto23
They should make you move a tiny bit slower in the water and no need for MOS.
Like you take a 10% movement penalty in water
Mon 7 Oct 2019 5:46 PM by Boltman
Water movement speed is already 90% of land speed. I tried to figure out why I was getting caught on my skald at speed 6. It turns out that you are slower in the water.
Mon 7 Oct 2019 6:35 PM by Roto23
Boltman wrote:
Mon 7 Oct 2019 5:46 PM
Water movement speed is already 90% of land speed. I tried to figure out why I was getting caught on my skald at speed 6. It turns out that you are slower in the water.

Are you shore about that.
Mon 7 Oct 2019 6:50 PM by gruenesschaf
There was never a scenario where water was meaningful in rvr and 90% movement speed potions / buffs weren't available. And if you ignore the official classic / non toa server it was even 100% with ml2.
Mon 7 Oct 2019 7:08 PM by Roto23
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 7 Oct 2019 6:50 PM
There was never a scenario where water was meaningful in rvr and 90% movement speed potions / buffs weren't available. And if you ignore the official classic / non toa server it was even 100% with ml2.

So what is it on our server? 90%?
Mon 7 Oct 2019 7:58 PM by Boltman
Roto23 wrote:
Mon 7 Oct 2019 6:35 PM
Boltman wrote:
Mon 7 Oct 2019 5:46 PM
Water movement speed is already 90% of land speed. I tried to figure out why I was getting caught on my skald at speed 6. It turns out that you are slower in the water.

Are you shore about that.

Test it yourself.. I did... 2 skalds running side by side, the one in the water goes slower.
Wed 9 Oct 2019 3:58 PM by Chaskha
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 7 Oct 2019 6:50 PM
There was never a scenario where water was meaningful in rvr and 90% movement speed potions / buffs weren't available. And if you ignore the official classic / non toa server it was even 100% with ml2.

You don't exactly do things by the book either. What if water became a thing to account for ? I would like it. I believe it would had strategic choices and a nice way to provide grouping perks to some classes.
Thu 10 Oct 2019 6:17 AM by Sepplord
Chaskha wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 3:58 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 7 Oct 2019 6:50 PM
There was never a scenario where water was meaningful in rvr and 90% movement speed potions / buffs weren't available. And if you ignore the official classic / non toa server it was even 100% with ml2.

You don't exactly do things by the book either. What if water became a thing to account for ? I would like it. I believe it would had strategic choices and a nice way to provide grouping perks to some classes.

I believe it would open up even more cheese tactics for castergroups, and fucking over melees even more. We can call that strategy (it is honestly) but that doesn't mean it'S an overall positive
Thu 10 Oct 2019 11:03 AM by Chaskha
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 10 Oct 2019 6:17 AM
Chaskha wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 3:58 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 7 Oct 2019 6:50 PM
There was never a scenario where water was meaningful in rvr and 90% movement speed potions / buffs weren't available. And if you ignore the official classic / non toa server it was even 100% with ml2.

You don't exactly do things by the book either. What if water became a thing to account for ? I would like it. I believe it would had strategic choices and a nice way to provide grouping perks to some classes.

I believe it would open up even more cheese tactics for castergroups, and fucking over melees even more. We can call that strategy (it is honestly) but that doesn't mean it'S an overall positive
Sure and my view might be biased as I play mainly casters tbh but melee all got huge deter, qc stun is worth nothing , one hit is between half and a third of the casters life while a caster would need 5 to 7 casts to kill it. I do agree that once melee is acquired, a caster should have little to no chance to survive but the opposite should stand true, a caster should be able to kite a little.

Now, water being a barrier for anyone, the only edge casters would have would be standing out of water and blasting people crossing outside of the bridges. If those casters are in smallman, they fall prey to stealthers (the ones with balls), 8man roaming the area. If that's a solo or duo they fall prey to any kind of stealthers. I don't see an 8man doing that all the time and just stay there as most like their mobility and roaming. Zergs want to take keeps, hell they even avoid fights sometimes.

And if siren song is given to melee, they'll swim faster and provide a boost to their group which may open a slot for a melee instead of a caster.

I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right but rather asking specifics of what I might be missing ?
Fri 11 Oct 2019 5:33 AM by Sepplord
Chaskha wrote:
Thu 10 Oct 2019 11:03 AM
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 10 Oct 2019 6:17 AM
Chaskha wrote:
Wed 9 Oct 2019 3:58 PM
You don't exactly do things by the book either. What if water became a thing to account for ? I would like it. I believe it would had strategic choices and a nice way to provide grouping perks to some classes.

I believe it would open up even more cheese tactics for castergroups, and fucking over melees even more. We can call that strategy (it is honestly) but that doesn't mean it'S an overall positive
Sure and my view might be biased as I play mainly casters tbh but melee all got huge deter, qc stun is worth nothing , one hit is between half and a third of the casters life while a caster would need 5 to 7 casts to kill it. I do agree that once melee is acquired, a caster should have little to no chance to survive but the opposite should stand true, a caster should be able to kite a little.

Now, water being a barrier for anyone, the only edge casters would have would be standing out of water and blasting people crossing outside of the bridges. If those casters are in smallman, they fall prey to stealthers (the ones with balls), 8man roaming the area. If that's a solo or duo they fall prey to any kind of stealthers. I don't see an 8man doing that all the time and just stay there as most like their mobility and roaming. Zergs want to take keeps, hell they even avoid fights sometimes.

And if siren song is given to melee, they'll swim faster and provide a boost to their group which may open a slot for a melee instead of a caster.

I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right but rather asking specifics of what I might be missing ?

the specifics (imo) are that the server is already heavily caster dominant, and fighting in water is already a caster buff currently (decreased speeds and backwards running being just as fast as swimming foward, making it impossible to backstyle kiting caster should a melee get close)

a caster should be able to kite a little

casters are not slower than melees, if you start kiting before the melee is in range you can do it forever and the melee basically has no chance to catch you unless with a team effort. Its such a core concept to PvP games in general that it has coined the term pre-kiting as its own name.
Sun 13 Oct 2019 7:49 AM by inoeth
Chaskha wrote:
Sat 12 Oct 2019 5:06 PM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 11 Oct 2019 5:14 PM
This whole thread is just lol.... Some ppl just want to roflstomp others with their caster and try to cover that suggestion as a "strategic" improvement.
Again just lol
I am sure the staff is not that dumb to follow your stupid explaination, so better close this ridicolous thread.
So you fast concluded that 1. I'm stupid 2. I'm trying to be deceptive
Hmmm let's see ... Because "lol", "you stupid" , "rolfstomp", "again just lol" I will just as conveniently conclude you have a micropenis ... So bright, uh?

Now, have you an explanation to provide to indeed conclude this is a really bad idea ? Maybe you have a clear view of why it is so bad and care to demonstrate helpful knowledge ?

awww you got triggered dude? and now you deny what i said and instead want others reasons why this is a bad idea? well there are no, this whole thing is just about getting advantage over others for ganking reasons..... as said by other posters before me too
Sun 13 Oct 2019 11:48 AM by Chaskha
inoeth wrote:
Sun 13 Oct 2019 7:49 AM
Chaskha wrote:
Sat 12 Oct 2019 5:06 PM
inoeth wrote:
Fri 11 Oct 2019 5:14 PM
This whole thread is just lol.... Some ppl just want to roflstomp others with their caster and try to cover that suggestion as a "strategic" improvement.
Again just lol
I am sure the staff is not that dumb to follow your stupid explaination, so better close this ridicolous thread.
So you fast concluded that 1. I'm stupid 2. I'm trying to be deceptive
Hmmm let's see ... Because "lol", "you stupid" , "rolfstomp", "again just lol" I will just as conveniently conclude you have a micropenis ... So bright, uh?

Now, have you an explanation to provide to indeed conclude this is a really bad idea ? Maybe you have a clear view of why it is so bad and care to demonstrate helpful knowledge ?

awww you got triggered dude? and now you deny what i said and instead want others reasons why this is a bad idea? well there are no, this whole thing is just about getting advantage over others for ganking reasons..... as said by other posters before me too
Sure, I'm the triggered one Oo ...
So you have no valuable opinion to provide on top of others and just came to insult people, smart dude ...
Sun 13 Oct 2019 12:53 PM by inoeth
Chaskha wrote:
Sun 13 Oct 2019 11:48 AM
inoeth wrote:
Sun 13 Oct 2019 7:49 AM
Chaskha wrote:
Sat 12 Oct 2019 5:06 PM
So you fast concluded that 1. I'm stupid 2. I'm trying to be deceptive
Hmmm let's see ... Because "lol", "you stupid" , "rolfstomp", "again just lol" I will just as conveniently conclude you have a micropenis ... So bright, uh?

Now, have you an explanation to provide to indeed conclude this is a really bad idea ? Maybe you have a clear view of why it is so bad and care to demonstrate helpful knowledge ?

awww you got triggered dude? and now you deny what i said and instead want others reasons why this is a bad idea? well there are no, this whole thing is just about getting advantage over others for ganking reasons..... as said by other posters before me too
Sure, I'm the triggered one Oo ...
So you have no valuable opinion to provide on top of others and just came to insult people, smart dude ...

what do you expect when making a no valueable suggestion?
and btw its not my job to bring the arguments, you made the suggestion and should bring a valueable argument for it, but you didnt. therefore one must assume you only want to roflstomp, which is again a really stupid suggestion.
Sun 13 Oct 2019 3:34 PM by Lillebror
Dont reduse speed, make it give damage (like the drowning) as soon your entering.
Sun 13 Oct 2019 10:04 PM by Chaskha
inoeth wrote:
Sun 13 Oct 2019 12:53 PM
Chaskha wrote:
Sun 13 Oct 2019 11:48 AM
inoeth wrote:
Sun 13 Oct 2019 7:49 AM
awww you got triggered dude? and now you deny what i said and instead want others reasons why this is a bad idea? well there are no, this whole thing is just about getting advantage over others for ganking reasons..... as said by other posters before me too
Sure, I'm the triggered one Oo ...
So you have no valuable opinion to provide on top of others and just came to insult people, smart dude ...

what do you expect when making a no valueable suggestion?
and btw its not my job to bring the arguments, you made the suggestion and should bring a valueable argument for it, but you didnt. therefore one must assume you only want to roflstomp, which is again a really stupid suggestion.
I did though ...
1. Water would snare (all classes) and therefore should be avoided so that bridges are again considered
2. A melee class would receive a song to decrease the water snare for its group so that classes less grouped maybe would become an asset

Maybe a charge could be provided to melee to ignore water snare.

I was just trying to open a door for more strategic choice in regards to water... Also I like when things remain with a bit of logic (I know... fireballs and stuff) and well, water slows down travels.

Now, again, would you explain why you think it would be a bad thing or will you just remain on your trollish position; ololol this is internet, I can come and say hey stupid to anyone without consequences, I'm such a king olol ? Enlighten me, for real, maybe something is clear to you and not to others.
Mon 14 Oct 2019 7:12 AM by inoeth
Chaskha wrote:
Sun 13 Oct 2019 10:04 PM
inoeth wrote:
Sun 13 Oct 2019 12:53 PM
Chaskha wrote:
Sun 13 Oct 2019 11:48 AM
Sure, I'm the triggered one Oo ...
So you have no valuable opinion to provide on top of others and just came to insult people, smart dude ...

what do you expect when making a no valueable suggestion?
and btw its not my job to bring the arguments, you made the suggestion and should bring a valueable argument for it, but you didnt. therefore one must assume you only want to roflstomp, which is again a really stupid suggestion.
I did though ...
1. Water would snare (all classes) and therefore should be avoided so that bridges are again considered
2. A melee class would receive a song to decrease the water snare for its group so that classes less grouped maybe would become an asset

Maybe a charge could be provided to melee to ignore water snare.

I was just trying to open a door for more strategic choice in regards to water... Also I like when things remain with a bit of logic (I know... fireballs and stuff) and well, water slows down travels.

Now, again, would you explain why you think it would be a bad thing or will you just remain on your trollish position; ololol this is internet, I can come and say hey stupid to anyone without consequences, I'm such a king olol ? Enlighten me, for real, maybe something is clear to you and not to others.

yes your "strategic choice" is still ganking. as long as there are no neraid pots for everyone, there is no reason to implement that and then one should ask why would you even bother implement that.
you are the one who tries to troll here
Mon 14 Oct 2019 9:25 AM by Chaskha
Ok, so your input is "for me, it is ONLY promoting ganking by casters"
Despite the one class having the song would be melee and crossing water would hinder any class just the same.

The fact that a group with that song class grouped could integrate any setup still seems unfair, it will be a melee class and be represented in all realm, still unfair.

Water should not represent an area of hindering because sometimes a caster will stand in water and if showing insane patience, could gank a melee coming his way stubbornly ? Or is it a caster on land able to hit stuff crossing water?

I'm not saying you are wrong, I just think these scenarii will not happen very often ... that's the beauty of trying something and removing it if there is an abuse.
Mon 14 Oct 2019 9:35 AM by Sepplord
Chaskha wrote:
Mon 14 Oct 2019 9:25 AM
Water should not represent an area of hindering because sometimes a caster will stand in water and if showing insane patience, could gank a melee coming his way stubbornly ? Or is it a caster on land able to hit stuff crossing water?

Imo that is arguing in bad faith and a wrong representation of the current situations/where fights take place.
Castergroups kite and extending towards a waterbody is extremely easy at 75% of the map where battles take place...

it's not like water is at some obscure far away places, engaging a fight near water to then extend into it when stuff goes wrong would be a standard procedure (already is by some castergroups, because of the 90% movementspeed that is currently active)

needing to slot a specific meleeclass might sound good for 8mans, but for smallmans it further increases the problem of must-have-classes
Tue 15 Oct 2019 7:06 AM by inoeth
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 14 Oct 2019 9:35 AM
Chaskha wrote:
Mon 14 Oct 2019 9:25 AM
Water should not represent an area of hindering because sometimes a caster will stand in water and if showing insane patience, could gank a melee coming his way stubbornly ? Or is it a caster on land able to hit stuff crossing water?

Imo that is arguing in bad faith and a wrong representation of the current situations/where fights take place.
Castergroups kite and extending towards a waterbody is extremely easy at 75% of the map where battles take place...

it's not like water is at some obscure far away places, engaging a fight near water to then extend into it when stuff goes wrong would be a standard procedure (already is by some castergroups, because of the 90% movementspeed that is currently active)

needing to slot a specific meleeclass might sound good for 8mans, but for smallmans it further increases the problem of must-have-classes

yes totally this ... also solo classes lose here if not this specific class with the water buff
Tue 15 Oct 2019 5:39 PM by Mavella
Turn the water into lava +1
Tue 15 Oct 2019 6:08 PM by inoeth
Mavella wrote:
Tue 15 Oct 2019 5:39 PM
Turn the water into lava +1

That could be a nice helloween event xD
Tue 15 Oct 2019 7:30 PM by chryso
inoeth wrote:
Tue 15 Oct 2019 6:08 PM
Mavella wrote:
Tue 15 Oct 2019 5:39 PM
Turn the water into lava +1

That could be a nice helloween event xD

That would burn down the boats.
Tue 15 Oct 2019 10:17 PM by Chaskha
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 14 Oct 2019 9:35 AM
Chaskha wrote:
Mon 14 Oct 2019 9:25 AM
Water should not represent an area of hindering because sometimes a caster will stand in water and if showing insane patience, could gank a melee coming his way stubbornly ? Or is it a caster on land able to hit stuff crossing water?

Imo that is arguing in bad faith and a wrong representation of the current situations/where fights take place.
Castergroups kite and extending towards a waterbody is extremely easy at 75% of the map where battles take place...

it's not like water is at some obscure far away places, engaging a fight near water to then extend into it when stuff goes wrong would be a standard procedure (already is by some castergroups, because of the 90% movementspeed that is currently active)

needing to slot a specific meleeclass might sound good for 8mans, but for smallmans it further increases the problem of must-have-classes
Ok, it would impair smallmen, that part I get, you're right!
Good lord, I finally got it ... Kiting in water will snare everyone but as casters still cast as fast as before, it would give them a free cast or two before the melee is on them... compared running on earth...
Took me long to picture this ...
Wed 16 Oct 2019 7:15 AM by inoeth
chryso wrote:
Tue 15 Oct 2019 7:30 PM
inoeth wrote:
Tue 15 Oct 2019 6:08 PM
Mavella wrote:
Tue 15 Oct 2019 5:39 PM
Turn the water into lava +1

That could be a nice helloween event xD

That would burn down the boats.

well we need to get the boats from ML5 then or its just possible to get to anthoer realm by crossing EV.... could be interesting
This topic is locked and you can't reply.

Return to Suggestions or the latest topics