weaponskill debuff - Phoenix Freeshard

WTF im doing 30-50 dmg less now vs assassins and cant win even with ip4
plz revert this stupid change

Sat 10 Aug 2019 7:59 PM by REVOLTE

the change was very crazy indeed.
even more incentive to play silly sneaks (which equals more wasted playercount.)

Sat 10 Aug 2019 8:03 PM by inoeth

before i did around 200 dmg with 4.7 spear on infis, now 150.. and they hit with 1h for 150 this is a joke! really!

Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:51 AM by trawetsnivek

ya it's quite OP... I'm losing fights that I would normally win.

My damage went from 170 mainhand to 120 mainhand against nightshades (using slash). Also makes Reflex Attack pretty much obsolete. My offhand hits for 26 dmg with a 3.2 spd.

Well, I guess this was the icing on the cake for me. Needed an excuse not to play anymore and here it is. Thank you.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:55 AM by Tigerforce

Now you know how we felt when attacking and hitting for 130's on the high end and 90's on the low end. You still hitting harder. For you light tanks stop complaining, that's why you get to spec in moPain and Reflex.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:56 AM by Tigerforce

trawetsnivek wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:51 AM
ya it's quite OP... I'm losing fights that I would normally win.

My damage went from 170 mainhand to 120 mainhand against nightshades (using slash). Also makes Reflex Attack pretty much obsolete. My offhand hits for 26 dmg with a 3.2 spd.

Well, I guess this was the icing on the cake for me. Needed an excuse not to play anymore and here it is. Thank you.

Normally win cuz we weakened. Now that you actually have to try, your losing.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 2:18 AM by trawetsnivek

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:55 AM
Now you know how we felt when attacking and hitting for 130's on the high end and 90's on the low end. You still hitting harder. For you light tanks stop complaining, that's why you get to spec in moPain and Reflex.

RA is garbage vs high defense classes and now garbage vs assasins. You do realize that sins also get moPain right? so that's not an argument.

It's a difference of 50 dmg per swing... why should an assasin hit as hard or even more than a light tank (or main tank for that matter)?

They needed a buff. Like a larger PA opener but not a ws debuff this strong that makes us hit like a wet noodle.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 4:29 AM by Tigerforce

we don't hit as hard. I hit for 115-130 on average. Non crit, non DW hit. If you hitting 150, +Crits +LA+ Reflex...… yah.. your fine.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 4:29 AM by Tigerforce

You also get IP, so its just forcing you to use your dam RA's like it should, again no argument against not having the debuff as it is.

Adjust, move on.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 6:19 AM by Kemoauc

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 4:29 AM
You also get IP, so its just forcing you to use your dam RA's like it should, again no argument against not having the debuff as it is.

Adjust, move on.

I haven't fought enough assassins after the change yet to really judge if and how the balance has shifted. But telling someone that he can counter the debuff with IP is just ridicolous. The poison can be reapplied without cooldown and is part of the basic kit of every assassin, IP costs probably 10-15 points to have an impact, has 15 min cooldown and only people that intend to play solo will get it. Also, you can still counter IP with vanish.

Generally, debuffs are a very unfun way of balancing because it just feels bad to play a weak version of your character. Nobody ever enjoyed fighting a champion for example.

Based on all the whining in the forums you could think that assassins currently are getting 1shot by everything. If I look at the herald they still dominate the solokill statistics and are doing fine in overall Rp gain.

Edit: after fighting a few assassins, the new poison doesn't appear to be overly broken. Together with armor resistances of NS the dmg is really low but still manageable

Sun 11 Aug 2019 7:38 AM by Joc

Where are the notes for this change?

Sun 11 Aug 2019 7:49 AM by Numatic

Joc wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 7:38 AM
Where are the notes for this change?

on the main phoenix page

Sun 11 Aug 2019 8:26 AM by Iuppiter

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 4:29 AM
we don't hit as hard. I hit for 115-130 on average. Non crit, non DW hit. If you hitting 150, +Crits +LA+ Reflex...… yah.. your fine.

"Don't mind these ticks of lifebane, move along!" Haven't fought anyone since the buff, I just find this rationalization funny

Also they say in patchnotes it's not even in its final form and may get upped even more! If I had to guess I'd say this was to make them more viable in the 1v1 zones vs the visi solo-oriented classes...but for classes that already struggled vs. sneaks GL.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 9:13 AM by

gruenesschaf

Iuppiter wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 8:26 AM
"Don't mind these ticks of lifebane, move along!" Haven't fought anyone since the buff, I just find this rationalization funny Also they say in patchnotes it's not even in its final form and may get upped even more! If I had to guess I'd say this was to make them more viable in the 1v1 zones vs the visi solo-oriented classes...but for classes that already struggled vs. sneaks GL.

Neither a nerf nor buff was directly intended, it's just that weaponskill debuff was implemented incorrectly. It's perfectly possible that once it's working as it should that the poison will see a reduction in the debuffed wskill% depending on how it turns out in the end, however, the very small effect it had was what caused me to test it in the first place and so an increase in effectiveness was more or less expected.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 9:41 AM by Killaloth

Thanks for the change, I haven't tested it yet but I hope it encourages more sneaks to hit tanks and light tanks.

With high viper it was already possible to kill a tank with purge down, even without landing a PA. But the number of sneaks that tried to hit me solo after RR8 was close to 0.

If this change helps sneaks to be a bit more brave then it's good news. Win or lose we'll hopefully see more action for everyone.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:33 AM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 9:13 AM
Iuppiter wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 8:26 AM
"Don't mind these ticks of lifebane, move along!" Haven't fought anyone since the buff, I just find this rationalization funny Also they say in patchnotes it's not even in its final form and may get upped even more! If I had to guess I'd say this was to make them more viable in the 1v1 zones vs the visi solo-oriented classes...but for classes that already struggled vs. sneaks GL.

Neither a nerf nor buff was directly intended, it's just that weaponskill debuff was implemented incorrectly. It's perfectly possible that once it's working as it should that the poison will see a reduction in the debuffed wskill% depending on how it turns out in the end, however, the very small effect it had was what caused me to test it in the first place and so an increase in effectiveness was more or less expected.

You and I have discussed the problems with using the Live server in its current form as a baseline for what DAOC should be. I thought you knew better at this point to NOT use the Live server anymore? Broadsword has tweaked things so far away from what it was prior to August 2016 that you're just asking and screaming for imbalance if you use Broadsword's version of DAOC. I highly recommend that you balance things to Phoenix standards and not Broadsword standards.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:50 AM by

gruenesschaf

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:33 AM
You and I have discussed the problems with using the Live server in its current form as a baseline for what DAOC should be. I thought you knew better at this point to NOT use the Live server anymore? Broadsword has tweaked things so far away from what it was prior to August 2016 that you're just asking and screaming for imbalance if you use Broadsword's version of DAOC. I highly recommend that you balance things to Phoenix standards and not Broadsword standards.

As I told you many times before, all they changed are values or adding / shuffling around entire abilities / spells. The underlying mechanics / formulas are still the same. The thing that was fixed here was how weapon skill % debuff works mechanically.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 11:15 AM by chois

Don t see exactly the impact, but if it s the same on my scout than on light/heavy tank, we re going from hardcore mode yet to welcome in hell😊

Sun 11 Aug 2019 11:25 AM by inoeth

a 25% nerf for everyone but sneaks is very very tough and i dont see any real reason for that.... on the other hand if viper gets removed i could live with that, but both in combination is devestating atm

Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:31 PM by Numatic

Basically from what I gather is that the weapon skill debuff was not reducing the damage correctly, but the effectiveness of the weaponskill % debuff may be reduced incase the corrected mechanic reduces the damage too much?

So let's say with the corrected fix it reduces wpnsk by 40%, which in turn reduces dmg by 25%. If that is deemed too much then the weaponskill percentage might be reduced, thus reducing the damage reduction inadvertently?

Just trying to figure out where this is going.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:33 PM by Campjr

Killaloth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 9:41 AM
Thanks for the change, I haven't tested it yet but I hope it encourages more sneaks to hit tanks and light tanks.

With high viper it was already possible to kill a tank with purge down, even without landing a PA. But the number of sneaks that tried to hit me solo after RR8 was close to 0.

If this change helps sneaks to be a bit more brave then it's good news. Win or lose we'll hopefully see more action for everyone.

Wow someone that gets it! Assassins in their current form have almost all but stopped attacking most tanks r4 and above. I don’t think the expectation should be to win 100% on either side, but if you expect to go out without purge , etc. you should potentially lose. 90% of classes are running around daring assassins to perf them with zero fear right now.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:36 PM by

gruenesschaf

Numatic wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:31 PM
Basically from what I gather is that the weapon skill debuff was not reducing the damage correctly, but the effectiveness of the weaponskill % debuff may be reduced incase the corrected mechanic reduces the damage too much?

So let's say with the corrected fix it reduces wpnsk by 40%, which in turn reduces dmg by 25%. If that is deemed too much then the weaponskill percentage might be reduced, thus reducing the damage reduction inadvertently?

Just trying to figure out where this is going.

Yes. The way it was implemented before is that it only reduced the relevant weapon stat (str or dex or (str + dex)/2) by the listed amount whereas wskill debuff on live, at least from the initial round of testing, appears to be 1.5 times as effective as listed and reduces everything, including what is commonly called the damage table, by that amount. Right now it's the same but "only" 1.33 times as effective as listed.
It's likely that the next update will fix it to 1.5 times but reduce the listed % debuffed by the level 47 poison to about 10% (needs some testing with before and after numbers) which should be a small increase against other low damage table classes but still a noticeable increase against high damage table classes.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:41 PM by Campjr

inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 11:25 AM
a 25% nerf for everyone but sneaks is very very tough and i dont see any real reason for that.... on the other hand if viper gets removed i could live with that, but both in combination is devestating atm

No it isn’t... I’m feeling like the exaggeration is coming from guys that barely play the game and are making huge assumptions without playing the game. I’m the highest earning assassin for the week and can tell you next to little game from fighting tanks, sm, bd, necro, minstrels. I’ve killed two wizards all week, 1 runemaster, 3 sorcs, zero cabalists. All RP have basically been forced by killing all sneaks.

A full PA chain against all tanks r4+ minus a savage is a 50/50 shot if they have purge down. If I have purge down, I’m dead. If they have purge up, it’s about a 5-10% chance against a competent player.

Hell, most tank fights go something like this, I PA/CD, they purge and just turn and anytime style me down. Most don’t use reactionaries, numb bait, positionals, etc. that’s not even getting into the fight goes too long and we typically end up zerged down anyway. The risk/reward just isn’t worth fighting.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:52 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Campjr wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:33 PM
Wow someone that gets it! Assassins in their current form have almost all but stopped attacking most tanks r4 and above. I don’t think the expectation should be to win 100% on either side, but if you expect to go out without purge , etc. you should potentially lose. 90% of classes are running around daring assassins to perf them with zero fear right now.

It's almost as if assassins are meant to be targeting squishy classes! If only they had a way of staying hidden until the correct target of opportunity appeared...

Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:56 PM by inoeth

Campjr wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:41 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 11:25 AM
a 25% nerf for everyone but sneaks is very very tough and i dont see any real reason for that.... on the other hand if viper gets removed i could live with that, but both in combination is devestating atm

No it isn’t... I’m feeling like the exaggeration is coming from guys that barely play the game and are making huge assumptions without playing the game. I’m the highest earning assassin for the week and can tell you next to little game from fighting tanks, sm, bd, necro, minstrels. I’ve killed two wizards all week, 1 runemaster, 3 sorcs, zero cabalists. All RP have basically been forced by killing all sneaks.

A full PA chain against all tanks r4+ minus a savage is a 50/50 shot if they have purge down. If I have purge down, I’m dead. If they have purge up, it’s about a 5-10% chance against a competent player.

Hell, most tank fights go something like this, I PA/CD, they purge and just turn and anytime style me down. Most don’t use reactionaries, numb bait, positionals, etc. that’s not even getting into the fight goes too long and we typically end up zerged down anyway. The risk/reward just isn’t worth fighting.

150mh+60offhand 100 lifebane 50 dot proc ... yes that is devestating!
nice ad hominem btw "barely play the game" im in the top 10 hunter list btw

Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:09 PM by Campjr

inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:56 PM
Campjr wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:41 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 11:25 AM
a 25% nerf for everyone but sneaks is very very tough and i dont see any real reason for that.... on the other hand if viper gets removed i could live with that, but both in combination is devestating atm

No it isn’t... I’m feeling like the exaggeration is coming from guys that barely play the game and are making huge assumptions without playing the game. I’m the highest earning assassin for the week and can tell you next to little game from fighting tanks, sm, bd, necro, minstrels. I’ve killed two wizards all week, 1 runemaster, 3 sorcs, zero cabalists. All RP have basically been forced by killing all sneaks.

A full PA chain against all tanks r4+ minus a savage is a 50/50 shot if they have purge down. If I have purge down, I’m dead. If they have purge up, it’s about a 5-10% chance against a competent player.

Hell, most tank fights go something like this, I PA/CD, they purge and just turn and anytime style me down. Most don’t use reactionaries, numb bait, positionals, etc. that’s not even getting into the fight goes too long and we typically end up zerged down anyway. The risk/reward just isn’t worth fighting.

150mh+60offhand 100 lifebane 50 dot proc ... yes that is devestating!
nice ad hominem btw "barely play the game" im in the top 10 hunter list btw

so a hunter should beat assassins in melee?

Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:11 PM by chois

He can, like a ranger can, like a scout can

Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:14 PM by Campjr

for the record, heres my personal stance and most from the top assassins. We simply want to wins fights through our CS line. Make PA mean something and give us the real ability to kill the classes we should (SM,BD, Casters, other sneaks, and potentially have good fights with lesser RR Tanks if you open like you should)

Winning fights through WS debuff shouldnt be our bread and butter.

Winning fights against casters should be 100% if land a PA

Want good fights where outplay is possible

Up PA damage, give us something on hammy chain, and give mez poison to deal with some of the untouchables/adds. Im completely fine with struggling with tanks as thats how it should be.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:23 PM by inoeth

Campjr wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:09 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:56 PM
Campjr wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:41 PM
No it isn’t... I’m feeling like the exaggeration is coming from guys that barely play the game and are making huge assumptions without playing the game. I’m the highest earning assassin for the week and can tell you next to little game from fighting tanks, sm, bd, necro, minstrels. I’ve killed two wizards all week, 1 runemaster, 3 sorcs, zero cabalists. All RP have basically been forced by killing all sneaks.

A full PA chain against all tanks r4+ minus a savage is a 50/50 shot if they have purge down. If I have purge down, I’m dead. If they have purge up, it’s about a 5-10% chance against a competent player.

Hell, most tank fights go something like this, I PA/CD, they purge and just turn and anytime style me down. Most don’t use reactionaries, numb bait, positionals, etc. that’s not even getting into the fight goes too long and we typically end up zerged down anyway. The risk/reward just isn’t worth fighting.

150mh+60offhand 100 lifebane 50 dot proc ... yes that is devestating!
nice ad hominem btw "barely play the game" im in the top 10 hunter list btw

so a hunter should beat assassins in melee?

ofc like it was always possible, it still is but much harder...

Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:29 PM by Campjr

inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:23 PM
Campjr wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:09 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:56 PM
150mh+60offhand 100 lifebane 50 dot proc ... yes that is devestating!
nice ad hominem btw "barely play the game" im in the top 10 hunter list btw

so a hunter should beat assassins in melee?

ofc like it was always possible, it still is but much harder...

as it should be, you chose an ARCHER base class. Not an ASSASSIN.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 3:28 PM by Taniquetil

Im really sorry Inoeth but you cant state that all tanks should beat stealthers in another thread and support the rock paper scissors argument and then in another thread state that ranger/hunter should beat assassins in a a straight up melee fight in the next. Either pick one or admit you’re biased and just want to be gifted wins in whatever you play. Please choose one and continue to argue but do not pick both.

If a hunter drops a crit and plays well they still win. Ask zamahoo. We duelled 4 times yest. Its down to skill now. Im gonna say you’re not that skill full as i easily stomp your hunter.

But if you want your thane argument to have a THREAD of credibility please stop asking for hunters to win straight up in melee vs sins unless played very well. This was a VERY well thought out balancing patch as rangers were a joke before.

Also yeah you’re top 10 hunter but realistically youre still bad at youre class. Zama is way way better than you.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 3:44 PM by Freedomcall

inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:56 PM
Campjr wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:41 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 11:25 AM
a 25% nerf for everyone but sneaks is very very tough and i dont see any real reason for that.... on the other hand if viper gets removed i could live with that, but both in combination is devestating atm

No it isn’t... I’m feeling like the exaggeration is coming from guys that barely play the game and are making huge assumptions without playing the game. I’m the highest earning assassin for the week and can tell you next to little game from fighting tanks, sm, bd, necro, minstrels. I’ve killed two wizards all week, 1 runemaster, 3 sorcs, zero cabalists. All RP have basically been forced by killing all sneaks.

A full PA chain against all tanks r4+ minus a savage is a 50/50 shot if they have purge down. If I have purge down, I’m dead. If they have purge up, it’s about a 5-10% chance against a competent player.

Hell, most tank fights go something like this, I PA/CD, they purge and just turn and anytime style me down. Most don’t use reactionaries, numb bait, positionals, etc. that’s not even getting into the fight goes too long and we typically end up zerged down anyway. The risk/reward just isn’t worth fighting.

150mh+60offhand 100 lifebane 50 dot proc ... yes that is devestating!
nice ad hominem btw "barely play the game" im in the top 10 hunter list btw

150mh+60offhand, 100 lifebane 50 dot proc..... that is called exaggeration.
To get viper5+purge4+vanish, you already need RR7.
And to reach 60 dmg with offhand... did he put moStr7 or smth?
I also did test about how much dmg dot proc does on average long ago, and even MoMagery9 can't reach 50.

So, who were you fighting against? RR13?

Sun 11 Aug 2019 4:05 PM by gotwqqd

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 3:28 PM
Im really sorry Inoeth but you cant state that all tanks should beat stealthers in another thread and support the rock paper scissors argument and then in another thread state that ranger/hunter should beat assassins in a a straight up melee fight in the next. Either pick one or admit you’re biased and just want to be gifted wins in whatever you play. Please choose one and continue to argue but do not pick both.

If a hunter drops a crit and plays well they still win. Ask zamahoo. We duelled 4 times yest. Its down to skill now. Im gonna say you’re not that skill full as i easily stomp your hunter.

But if you want your thane argument to have a THREAD of credibility please stop asking for hunters to win straight up in melee vs sins unless played very well. This was a VERY well thought out balancing patch as rangers were a joke before.

Also yeah you’re top 10 hunter but realistically youre still bad at youre class. Zama is way way better than you.

Both of his statement supports rps system.
Not saying it should be that way but those two arguments don’t conflict

Sun 11 Aug 2019 4:59 PM by inoeth

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 3:28 PM
Im really sorry Inoeth but you cant state that all tanks should beat stealthers in another thread and support the rock paper scissors argument and then in another thread state that ranger/hunter should beat assassins in a a straight up melee fight in the next. Either pick one or admit you’re biased and just want to be gifted wins in whatever you play. Please choose one and continue to argue but do not pick both.

If a hunter drops a crit and plays well they still win. Ask zamahoo. We duelled 4 times yest. Its down to skill now. Im gonna say you’re not that skill full as i easily stomp your hunter.

But if you want your thane argument to have a THREAD of credibility please stop asking for hunters to win straight up in melee vs sins unless played very well. This was a VERY well thought out balancing patch as rangers were a joke before.

Also yeah you’re top 10 hunter but realistically youre still bad at youre class. Zama is way way better than you.

ya you beat me easily because you add all the time, what kind of skill is that lol

i never said i support rock paper scissor... imo thats very stupid, because then some classes would be totally shit and others dominate, i prefer equal chances for everybody.

yes you are right rangers were a little bit too strong but now everyone is fucked, cool "well thought out balance"

realisticly you can not judge me at all since we rarely meet each other and when we do its mostly when you add me so stfu and stop this ridicolous ad hominem

btw rangers have not been a real problem for me prior the patch, now they are almost easy rp, was this intended?

Sun 11 Aug 2019 4:59 PM by Azuell

Campjr wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:14 PM
for the record, heres my personal stance and most from the top assassins. We simply want to wins fights through our CS line. Make PA mean something and give us the real ability to kill the classes we should (SM,BD, Casters, other sneaks, and potentially have good fights with lesser RR Tanks if you open like you should)

Winning fights through WS debuff shouldnt be our bread and butter.
Winning fights against casters should be 100% if land a PA
Want good fights where outplay is possible

Up PA damage, give us something on hammy chain, and give mez poison to deal with some of the untouchables/adds. Im completely fine with struggling with tanks as thats how it should be.

Lol. You're funny.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 5:19 PM by hawsey813311

btw rangers have not been a real problem for me prior the patch, now they are almost easy rp, was this intended?
[/quote]

are you talking about the hunter vs ranger matchup? whats changed in this last patch that made hunters do better vs rangers?

Sun 11 Aug 2019 5:59 PM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:50 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:33 AM
You and I have discussed the problems with using the Live server in its current form as a baseline for what DAOC should be. I thought you knew better at this point to NOT use the Live server anymore? Broadsword has tweaked things so far away from what it was prior to August 2016 that you're just asking and screaming for imbalance if you use Broadsword's version of DAOC. I highly recommend that you balance things to Phoenix standards and not Broadsword standards.

As I told you many times before, all they changed are values or adding / shuffling around entire abilities / spells. The underlying mechanics / formulas are still the same. The thing that was fixed here was how weapon skill % debuff works mechanically.

Yes I know. Like I have told you before, they changed the values on Live to pander to a very small group of players. This in turn pushed away the majority of players, which is why you currently have the population here on Phoenix. If you want to push away players like Broadsword did, then copy Broadsword. If you want to keep players, do not copy Broadsword's values.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 6:00 PM by bm01

inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 4:59 PM
ya you beat me easily because you add all the time, what kind of skill is that lol

We don't care. This isn't about your shitty stealther wars.

Apparently this "fix" can result in an increase or a loss of damage for the target of the debuff. What kind of range are we talking about? What classes suffer the most from it? More importantly, was there really an issue with balance before? As a Thane I felt like fights against assassins were fine. If they miss PA they have a very low chance to win, if PA hits it's about 50/50 but with an advantage for the tank at high rank. To me, it made sense. I'm asking because of what has been said earlier: "Neither a nerf nor buff was directly intended, it's just that weaponskill debuff was implemented incorrectly". Why fix something that has an impact on balance if you don't really want to change the current balance?

Sun 11 Aug 2019 6:01 PM by inoeth

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 5:19 PM
btw rangers have not been a real problem for me prior the patch, now they are almost easy rp, was this intended?

are you talking about the hunter vs ranger matchup? whats changed in this last patch that made hunters do better vs rangers?
[/quote]

str/con debuffs feels far more effective now too but maybe i just met very very bad rangers?

Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:51 PM by Taniquetil

inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 11:25 AM
a 25% nerf for everyone but sneaks is very very tough and i dont see any real reason for that.... on the other hand if viper gets removed i could live with that, but both in combination is devestating atm

We can all ignore this given 25% is incorrect and not founded in facts, the ajustment is closer to 3-5% more than it was previously to a total of 12-15% nowhere near 25%, Nesretnik has tested it. However its been made more impactful given previously WS debuff did very little, yes its noticeable but good players can play around it still and i still lose to good/well played heavy tanks, as it should be. PA is more effective. This change so far seems fairly well thought through, i dont know if more buffs should be added though.. this will remain to be seen

Equally it baffles me that rangers and hunters think they should win duels straight up vs sins easily, played well, yes, however easily just pressing IP etc, no i dont think so. Zamahoo still competes when using his class to its potential, tested in 1v1 zone post buff, he's still smart and knows how to play his class to give him an advantage.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 11:02 PM by Tigerforce

Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 6:19 AM
Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 4:29 AM
You also get IP, so its just forcing you to use your dam RA's like it should, again no argument against not having the debuff as it is.

Adjust, move on.

I haven't fought enough assassins after the change yet to really judge if and how the balance has shifted. But telling someone that he can counter the debuff with IP is just ridicolous. The poison can be reapplied without cooldown and is part of the basic kit of every assassin, IP costs probably 10-15 points to have an impact, has 15 min cooldown and only people that intend to play solo will get it. Also, you can still counter IP with vanish.

Generally, debuffs are a very unfun way of balancing because it just feels bad to play a weak version of your character. Nobody ever enjoyed fighting a champion for example.

Based on all the whining in the forums you could think that assassins currently are getting 1shot by everything. If I look at the herald they still dominate the solokill statistics and are doing fine in overall Rp gain.

Edit: after fighting a few assassins, the new poison doesn't appear to be overly broken. Together with armor resistances of NS the dmg is really low but still manageable

They do not dominate by finding the solo Champs and tanks out there. They are dominating like someone said because of their solo kills of the levelers, and casters. Mine is fully temp'd/ out , twinked,pimped w/e u wana call it. Max stats and yet a skald or anything really 2h will wipe the floor with me in 2-3 hits. There is no reason ppl should be QQ'ing cuz now they gotta swing 1-2 more times to get that hit due to being debuff'd or a light tank using reflex.

This is balanced!
Sin low dmg+posion= moderate dmg+hard to hit = fair
light tank Dual wpns (moderate dmg)+IP+Reflex (free dmg back towards those who hit you) = hard hitting without having to get every hit
Heavy tanks or 2h's High dmg/High block +IP = when hitting its taking chunks of life away or your blocking almost every hit, with the ability to heal and extend the fight.

Sun 11 Aug 2019 11:07 PM by Tigerforce

It is IMPOSSIBLE to perfectly balance a game. You either accept your roll in your class and understand your weakness or you play hop-scotch outside. In every fantasy inspired game, classes have been the same across the board.

Assassins- hard to hit, small dmg, but capable of big dmg, fast, usually associated with some kinda poison, die easy/fast
Tanks- lowish dmg, lots of armor/life hard to kill quickly usually got some kinda group def buff or ability
DW barbarians or 2h psycho's- output lots of dmg, at the expense of being relatively low in Def and avg in health
Casters- basically the same as the class above but different flavor in being magic users and at a distance, with even less def/health

ppl need to stop QQ'ing trying to come up with their own versions of a class to do everything or be able to fight everything kinda shit. If you want that kind of game go play ESO. There you will find your Stealth caster or Range/Magic DD tank, or Constant vanishing stealthier, you pick whatever you want, daoc is not that

Mon 12 Aug 2019 6:20 AM by Turano

bm01 wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 6:00 PM
As a Thane I felt like fights against assassins were fine. If they miss PA they have a very low chance to win, if PA hits it's about 50/50 but with an advantage for the tank at high rank. To me, it made sense. I'm asking because of what has been said earlier: "Neither a nerf nor buff was directly intended, it's just that weaponskill debuff was implemented incorrectly". Why fix something that has an impact on balance if you don't really want to change the current balance?

What exactly was it about PA that boosted assassins win chance against you by ~45%? Was it the 200-300 damage that are for nothing because it is less than what the con debuff takes away on max HP? Or is it the follow up CD that is either blocked/parried/evaded or if it hits more often than not purged.
Please tell me what about this overpowered combo gives assas a fighting 50/50 chance while missing it lets them "rightfully" loose most of the time.
I'm really curious

Mon 12 Aug 2019 6:43 AM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:50 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:33 AM
You and I have discussed the problems with using the Live server in its current form as a baseline for what DAOC should be. I thought you knew better at this point to NOT use the Live server anymore? Broadsword has tweaked things so far away from what it was prior to August 2016 that you're just asking and screaming for imbalance if you use Broadsword's version of DAOC. I highly recommend that you balance things to Phoenix standards and not Broadsword standards.

As I told you many times before, all they changed are values or adding / shuffling around entire abilities / spells. The underlying mechanics / formulas are still the same. The thing that was fixed here was how weapon skill % debuff works mechanically.

And as I've pointed out many times before, you're using the formulas from a server that has bonus caps to templates, buffbots, TOAs and Mythirians that boost melee. On that server a higher WS debuff doesn't hit a melee class as hard as it does here on Phoenix. If you're going to use Live formulas and end-result numbers to balance things like final chatlog damage numbers including debuffs/etc. then you need to boost Phoenix to Live values which include TOA/Mythirian % boosts, stat cap boosts in templates, and buff pots which delve on Phoenix for buffbot values on Live. Otherwise leave it alone.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 6:57 AM by inoeth

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:51 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 11:25 AM
a 25% nerf for everyone but sneaks is very very tough and i dont see any real reason for that.... on the other hand if viper gets removed i could live with that, but both in combination is devestating atm

We can all ignore this given 25% is incorrect and not founded in facts, the ajustment is closer to 3-5% more than it was previously to a total of 12-15% nowhere near 25%, Nesretnik has tested it. However its been made more impactful given previously WS debuff did very little, yes its noticeable but good players can play around it still and i still lose to good/well played heavy tanks, as it should be. PA is more effective. This change so far seems fairly well thought through, i dont know if more buffs should be added though.. this will remain to be seen

Equally it baffles me that rangers and hunters think they should win duels straight up vs sins easily, played well, yes, however easily just pressing IP etc, no i dont think so. Zamahoo still competes when using his class to its potential, tested in 1v1 zone post buff, he's still smart and knows how to play his class to give him an advantage.

said it several times now, prior i did around 200 now 150 ... that is 25% i dont care what others test say, i have seen so many "tests" that turned out to be wrong.

so what else does "zamahoo" do other than using anytimers, reactionaries, positionals, pet, pots, ras, charges? i mean what does he do what i do not? if its that clear for you, it should be easy to point that out. or did you just fuck up several times? or is it just that you try to bully me here? thats not going to work dude. im very satisfied with my overall performance so it doesnt bother me at all what you say.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 7:03 AM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 6:43 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:50 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:33 AM
You and I have discussed the problems with using the Live server in its current form as a baseline for what DAOC should be. I thought you knew better at this point to NOT use the Live server anymore? Broadsword has tweaked things so far away from what it was prior to August 2016 that you're just asking and screaming for imbalance if you use Broadsword's version of DAOC. I highly recommend that you balance things to Phoenix standards and not Broadsword standards.

As I told you many times before, all they changed are values or adding / shuffling around entire abilities / spells. The underlying mechanics / formulas are still the same. The thing that was fixed here was how weapon skill % debuff works mechanically.

And as I've pointed out many times before, you're using the formulas from a server that has bonus caps to templates, buffbots, TOAs and Mythirians that boost melee. On that server a higher WS debuff doesn't hit a melee class as hard as it does here on Phoenix. If you're going to use Live formulas and end-result numbers to balance things like final chatlog damage numbers including debuffs/etc. then you need to boost Phoenix to Live values which include TOA/Mythirian % boosts, stat cap boosts in templates, and buff pots which delve on Phoenix for buffbot values on Live. Otherwise leave it alone.

i dont see how that would affect relative numbers... if you get debuffed for a % value it doesnt matter if you have 2000WS or 1500WS you still get debuffed by that given % value. or did i get that wrong anyhow? enlight me please

Mon 12 Aug 2019 7:29 AM by Tigerforce

All I keep hearing is how fair it is now for melee to fight stealthers. Tanks/Light/Heavy are just shocked they actually have to play now when fighting one, they no longer see stealth as free kills.

If PA really effects you and u got a shield, your shit. I've PA'd chain tanks and still have lost, even weapon switching. The only time I ever get a kill on a decent one of them, is if IP or Purge is down. Other then that its like a 90% chance they winning. Literally all the tanks 2h's hits us for like anytimer PA's, stop your bitching, your embarrassing other ppl of your chosen classes to play.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 11:34 AM by bm01

Turano wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 6:20 AM
What exactly was it about PA that boosted assassins win chance against you by ~45%? Was it the 200-300 damage that are for nothing because it is less than what the con debuff takes away on max HP? Or is it the follow up CD that is either blocked/parried/evaded or if it hits more often than not purged.
Please tell me what about this overpowered combo gives assas a fighting 50/50 chance while missing it lets them "rightfully" loose most of the time.
I'm really curious

I don't know man, I don't play these classes. Ask Tani how he consistently (70% maybe) kills me. Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't see stealthers like him, the ones that I'm actually a little afraid of, complaining here.

I understand you have an inferiority complex but you completely missed the point of my post, I'm asking why change something that affects balance if they didn't want to change the current balance.

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 7:29 AM
The only time I ever get a kill on a decent one of them, is if IP or Purge is down.

Well isn't that obvious? That's why you have Vanish by the way. If you're implying that tank always have their RAs up, you're wrong.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 11:54 AM by Numatic

My SB got hit by a solo LW hammer hero for 321 and thats after i hit with PA and landed debuff. I PA'd him for about 370. Yet my brothers berserker is doin roughly 60 dmg less on his mainhand against a sin now. I think the way its affecting certain things may be....off. Not sure tbh.

What i will say is the inherent problem with sins. And that is, if they are too strong, all the soloers will play them and the few visi left will get tired of running into a PA train. Too weak and the solo gameplay suffers as they are generally the most solo friendly class.

I personally dont like the new debuff, but not because it makes sins too strong. It's that it doesnt play into the way a sin fights. All it really does is reduce incoming melee damage from your target. The debuff should be focused on boosting the assasins inherent skills.

The debuff should work like this

1. Increase chance for target to miss
2. Decrease targets passive defenses (evade, shield, parry etc..)
3. Reduce targets stats

I know that the debuff does affect these things, but only in the few % range which is paltry. I wpsk/con debuff someone and they still hit me just fine. My evade goes up a couple percent, and they still seem to rarely miss. Yet they are still sporting a 42% block/parry chance. Thats higher than my damn evade chance.

The entire playstyle of a sin is to hit your target, and not get hit in return. Sins cant take many hits. They are barely more protected than casters (and in some cases, less). So the entire idea about letting a sin get beat on but just reducing the damage doesnt really fit the playstyle. We should be avoiding the damage, not soaking it up at a slightly slower pace.

If you want to make sins a little better, that debuff should fit the playstyle of a sin. It seems more fitting to be on a tank rather than a sin.

Edit: Also, it would be nice if PA penetrated buffs (not self buffs like a casters AF). It would increase PA damage nicely without having to mess with the damage tables. It just doesnt have that fear factor anymore when a sin is getting hit for just as much with a 2h.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 1:16 PM by Taniquetil

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 11:34 AM
I don't know man, I don't play these classes. Ask Tani how he consistently (70% maybe) kills me. Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't see stealthers like him, the ones that I'm actually a little afraid of, complaining here.

Heh <3 Whats your character called?

Mon 12 Aug 2019 2:17 PM by Tigerforce

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 11:34 AM
Turano wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 6:20 AM
What exactly was it about PA that boosted assassins win chance against you by ~45%? Was it the 200-300 damage that are for nothing because it is less than what the con debuff takes away on max HP? Or is it the follow up CD that is either blocked/parried/evaded or if it hits more often than not purged.
Please tell me what about this overpowered combo gives assas a fighting 50/50 chance while missing it lets them "rightfully" loose most of the time.
I'm really curious
I don't know man, I don't play these classes. Ask Tani how he consistently (70% maybe) kills me. Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't see stealthers like him, the ones that I'm actually a little afraid of, complaining here.

I understand you have an inferiority complex but you completely missed the point of my post, I'm asking why change something that affects balance if they didn't want to change the current balance.
Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 7:29 AM
The only time I ever get a kill on a decent one of them, is if IP or Purge is down.
Well isn't that obvious? That's why you have Vanish by the way. If you're implying that tank always have their RAs up, you're wrong.

I'm not implying anything other then if your a chain user, who has access to a shield spec line and 2h, and your COMPLAINING you need to rethink how your playing. The only thing that's changed is that it might take you guys 2-3 more swings in killing a stealthier due to WS poison. We still die from 2h in just a few hits. That dot is more lethal towards other stealthers and that's it. If your a light tank, Spec in freakin Reflex attack. The more someone hits you the more chances you get free hits back in. There are zerkers who I kill myself on due to this. PA chain, poisons are not excuses for you guys to QQ, they are a necessity for the sin class.

I'll say it again you guys hit the same that we do with PA, only yours are anytime, with anytime stun, High block AF/Life, IP, Debuff (champ) Cast DD (thanes) , Free IP (hero) ect… the list continues. There will always be why anything class is better then yours or why you lost, vice versa.

YOU CANNOT PERFECTLY BALANCE A GAME! (This game is not incredibly imbalanced either, if it were you wld it being impossibly to kill certain classes, which isn't the case) If you're not getting any kills, then again I suggest you rethink how your playing. You cannot simply just /stick click buttons in order and hope to get your RP's. Ppl do not play that way anymore. IF YOU WANT "BALANCE" GO TO ELDERSCROLLS. There you will find your "perfect balance" and your stealth casters, stealth healer, caster/tank... whatever it is you can think of. DAOC is NOT that! Here we have specific rolls, and each of those rolls have certain instances where they excel and not excel so much. Get over it!

Mon 12 Aug 2019 3:11 PM by Wooshh

Mmmm i m not sure buffing assassins is what we need, i dont want to say they deserve to kill tanks or not, it s not important, but i think they already have enough appeal, the risk now is to see more stealthed and less unstealthed

I understood gms are fixing a bug and now studying the impact

Mon 12 Aug 2019 3:12 PM by inoeth

recently met a NS and hit him for 120 dmg with a 2h weapon!!! the NS did 150 mh

really guys this is stupid and need heavy adjusting.
while that i dont get why this needed to be done anyway, assassins were fine and stealth game was really balanced

Mon 12 Aug 2019 4:49 PM by bm01

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 2:17 PM
I'm not implying anything other then if your a chain user, who has access to a shield spec line and 2h, and your COMPLAINING you need to rethink how your playing. The only thing that's changed is that it might take you guys 2-3 more swings in killing a stealthier due to WS poison. We still die from 2h in just a few hits. That dot is more lethal towards other stealthers and that's it. If your a light tank, Spec in freakin Reflex attack. The more someone hits you the more chances you get free hits back in. There are zerkers who I kill myself on due to this. PA chain, poisons are not excuses for you guys to QQ, they are a necessity for the sin class.

I'll say it again you guys hit the same that we do with PA, only yours are anytime, with anytime stun, High block AF/Life, IP, Debuff (champ) Cast DD (thanes) , Free IP (hero) ect… the list continues. There will always be why anything class is better then yours or why you lost, vice versa.

YOU CANNOT PERFECTLY BALANCE A GAME! (This game is not incredibly imbalanced either, if it were you wld it being impossibly to kill certain classes, which isn't the case) If you're not getting any kills, then again I suggest you rethink how your playing. You cannot simply just /stick click buttons in order and hope to get your RP's. Ppl do not play that way anymore. IF YOU WANT "BALANCE" GO TO ELDERSCROLLS. There you will find your "perfect balance" and your stealth casters, stealth healer, caster/tank... whatever it is you can think of. DAOC is NOT that! Here we have specific rolls, and each of those rolls have certain instances where they excel and not excel so much. Get over it!

I don't even understand why you're quoting me in the first place. Where am I complaining exactly? I haven't even had many fights since the "fix". I'm basically simply replying to this post. I think the balance was fine as it was before (except maybe at high ranks since tanks have more layer of defenses), and that if your don't intent to affect this balance then maybe if would be better not to "fix" things that affect balance.

Stop whining over things I've never said.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 4:59 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 7:03 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 6:43 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:50 AM
As I told you many times before, all they changed are values or adding / shuffling around entire abilities / spells. The underlying mechanics / formulas are still the same. The thing that was fixed here was how weapon skill % debuff works mechanically.

And as I've pointed out many times before, you're using the formulas from a server that has bonus caps to templates, buffbots, TOAs and Mythirians that boost melee. On that server a higher WS debuff doesn't hit a melee class as hard as it does here on Phoenix. If you're going to use Live formulas and end-result numbers to balance things like final chatlog damage numbers including debuffs/etc. then you need to boost Phoenix to Live values which include TOA/Mythirian % boosts, stat cap boosts in templates, and buff pots which delve on Phoenix for buffbot values on Live. Otherwise leave it alone.

i dont see how that would affect relative numbers... if you get debuffed for a % value it doesnt matter if you have 2000WS or 1500WS you still get debuffed by that given % value. or did i get that wrong anyhow? enlight me please

I don't have exact numbers in front of me right now, but let's just assume that on Live with +25 stat cap, TOAs, Mythirian, and full spec buffbot you can hit for 300 damage one-handed. Compare that to hitting for around 150 one-handed here on Phoenix in the best of circumstances. If someone gets their WS debuffed which would remove damage on a percentage basis, then it hits the person who doesn't have all of the boosts on Live much harder. Let's say it's a 33% debuff. If that's the case the Live player sees their damage reduced to 200, and the Phoenix player is reduced to 100. If it's a flat decrease of 75 damage, for example, then it's even worse. That would be a total damage of 225 for Live and 75 for Phoenix.

Take these numbers with a grain of salt, being that I don't have the formulas or a DAOC calculator in front of me. These numbers were arbitrarily chosen just to show the difference in scale between Live and Phoenix. I keep warning Gruen about using Live as the guiderail for Phoenix which is always a bad idea because of the immense difference between the two servers.

Take all of this into account but also remember that WS affects defense penetration. Lower WS will make Assassins even harder to hit, and probably cap their evade rate Vs anyone who is trying to hit them.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:18 PM by bm01

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 4:59 PM
Take all of this into account but also remember that WS affects defense penetration. Lower WS will make Assassins even harder to hit, and probably cap their evade rate Vs anyone who is trying to hit them.

I'm not sure about that. I have a screenshot that is a few weeks old I believe. I took it because I wanted to understand why my block rate was so close to my parry rate (I only had 6+14 parry and 42+14 shield with MoB2 back then). But anyway, we can see my opponent's evade rate before and after purge, as well as my styled damage (on Revenge). Unfortunately there's also the Disease messing things up... But whatever.
We can see that his evade rate was 34.30% and 34.79% under WS debuff + Disease, then 33.10% after the purge. So I don't think we're going to see a huge increase there.
As for the damage, WS debuff + Disease made me lose around 15%. I don't know yet how much I would lose now.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:29 PM by jelzinga_EU

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:18 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 4:59 PM
Take all of this into account but also remember that WS affects defense penetration. Lower WS will make Assassins even harder to hit, and probably cap their evade rate Vs anyone who is trying to hit them.
I'm not sure about that. I have a screenshot that is a few weeks old I believe. I took it because I wanted to understand why my block rate was so close to my parry rate (I only had 6+14 parry and 42+14 shield with MoB2 back then). But anyway, we can see my opponent's evade rate before and after purge, as well as my styled damage (on Revenge). Unfortunately there's also the Disease messing things up... But whatever.
We can see that his evade rate was 34.30% and 34.79% under WS debuff + Disease, then 33.10% after the purge. So I don't think we're going to see a huge increase there.
As for the damage, WS debuff + Disease made me lose around 15%. I don't know yet how much I would lose now.

I've said before WS barely affects defense penetration. It is easily seen by comparing evade-% vs an INF/NS and a Merc/BM. There is a huge WS-difference between INF and Merc but the chance you evade (or parry/block) them barely differs.

As for your screenshot : Your block% is lowered by 25% because your opponent is dualwielding, where your parry is unaffected.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:31 PM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 4:59 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 7:03 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 6:43 AM
And as I've pointed out many times before, you're using the formulas from a server that has bonus caps to templates, buffbots, TOAs and Mythirians that boost melee. On that server a higher WS debuff doesn't hit a melee class as hard as it does here on Phoenix. If you're going to use Live formulas and end-result numbers to balance things like final chatlog damage numbers including debuffs/etc. then you need to boost Phoenix to Live values which include TOA/Mythirian % boosts, stat cap boosts in templates, and buff pots which delve on Phoenix for buffbot values on Live. Otherwise leave it alone.

i dont see how that would affect relative numbers... if you get debuffed for a % value it doesnt matter if you have 2000WS or 1500WS you still get debuffed by that given % value. or did i get that wrong anyhow? enlight me please

I don't have exact numbers in front of me right now, but let's just assume that on Live with +25 stat cap, TOAs, Mythirian, and full spec buffbot you can hit for 300 damage one-handed. Compare that to hitting for around 150 one-handed here on Phoenix in the best of circumstances. If someone gets their WS debuffed which would remove damage on a percentage basis, then it hits the person who doesn't have all of the boosts on Live much harder. Let's say it's a 33% debuff. If that's the case the Live player sees their damage reduced to 200, and the Phoenix player is reduced to 100. If it's a flat decrease of 75 damage, for example, then it's even worse. That would be a total damage of 225 for Live and 75 for Phoenix.

Take these numbers with a grain of salt, being that I don't have the formulas or a DAOC calculator in front of me. These numbers were arbitrarily chosen just to show the difference in scale between Live and Phoenix. I keep warning Gruen about using Live as the guiderail for Phoenix which is always a bad idea because of the immense difference between the two servers.

Take all of this into account but also remember that WS affects defense penetration. Lower WS will make Assassins even harder to hit, and probably cap their evade rate Vs anyone who is trying to hit them.

i dont get what you trying to tell me
the relative dmg difference on live would be 100 and here 50 but on live ppl also have 2k+ hp and here 1,5k

still... at least for my hunter this is a 25% nerf.... for others (kemy) it seems to be barely noticable, but why is that and is that intended? i mean hunters alrdy had hard times vs good assassins, but now you can just sit down... its like before dot swap and stealth change.
i can understand that tanks were too strong compared to assassins but they seem to still do very good vs them

Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:58 PM by jelzinga_EU

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:31 PM
still... at least for my hunter this is a 25% nerf.... for others (kemy) it seems to be barely noticable, but why is that and is that intended? i mean hunters alrdy had hard times vs good assassins, but now you can just sit down... its like before dot swap and stealth change.
i can understand that tanks were too strong compared to assassins but they seem to still do very good vs them

On my SB with 50+17 LA I hit Quambo (RR6 NS) for 128 (-72) mainhand before debuff. After debuff I hit for 93 (-52) -> 27.5% dmg-reduction. Since I hit him first with enervating I can't see his damage-reduction but afterwards it was 106 (-24) mainhand on Garrote.

Atleast I can return the favor as a SB - but you're completely toast now if it gets resisted and you don't notice it - or it is purged and you don't reapply fast enough

Mon 12 Aug 2019 7:12 PM by Campjr

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:58 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:31 PM
still... at least for my hunter this is a 25% nerf.... for others (kemy) it seems to be barely noticable, but why is that and is that intended? i mean hunters alrdy had hard times vs good assassins, but now you can just sit down... its like before dot swap and stealth change.
i can understand that tanks were too strong compared to assassins but they seem to still do very good vs them

On my SB with 50+17 LA I hit Quambo (RR6 NS) for 128 (-72) mainhand before debuff. After debuff I hit for 93 (-52) -> 27.5% dmg-reduction. Since I hit him first with enervating I can't see his damage-reduction but afterwards it was 106 (-24) mainhand on Garrote.

Atleast I can return the favor as a SB - but you're completely toast now if it gets resisted and you don't notice it - or it is purged and you don't reapply fast enough

Thats total of enerv. .. obviously not a 27% buff.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 7:22 PM by inoeth

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:58 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:31 PM
still... at least for my hunter this is a 25% nerf.... for others (kemy) it seems to be barely noticable, but why is that and is that intended? i mean hunters alrdy had hard times vs good assassins, but now you can just sit down... its like before dot swap and stealth change.
i can understand that tanks were too strong compared to assassins but they seem to still do very good vs them

On my SB with 50+17 LA I hit Quambo (RR6 NS) for 128 (-72) mainhand before debuff. After debuff I hit for 93 (-52) -> 27.5% dmg-reduction. Since I hit him first with enervating I can't see his damage-reduction but afterwards it was 106 (-24) mainhand on Garrote.

Atleast I can return the favor as a SB - but you're completely toast now if it gets resisted and you don't notice it - or it is purged and you don't reapply fast enough

i am not talking about absolute debuff, im talking about debuffed values before and after patch... i did about 200 with debuff prior the change nad now 150 soo the absolute % value is way higher ... without debuff it is something like 230

Mon 12 Aug 2019 9:14 PM by Cadebrennus

Where this is completely wrong is that the higher values are intended for live where people hit much harder, stats are much higher (Str/Dex/Con/Qui), and TOAs and Mythirians push damage beyond normal (bonuses to base damage, style damage, speed, etc.) By applying the higher debuff from live to a lower starting point here on Phoenix it pushes characters to a super debuffed state which never actually existed on Live at any point in its history.

Are you listening Gruenesschaf?

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:21 AM by Tigerforce

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 9:14 PM
Where this is completely wrong is that the higher values are intended for live where people hit much harder, stats are much higher (Str/Dex/Con/Qui), and TOAs and Mythirians push damage beyond normal (bonuses to base damage, style damage, speed, etc.) By applying the higher debuff from live to a lower starting point here on Phoenix it pushes characters to a super debuffed state which never actually existed on Live at any point in its history.

Are you listening Gruenesschaf?

shut up already

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:46 AM by Cadebrennus

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:21 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 9:14 PM
Where this is completely wrong is that the higher values are intended for live where people hit much harder, stats are much higher (Str/Dex/Con/Qui), and TOAs and Mythirians push damage beyond normal (bonuses to base damage, style damage, speed, etc.) By applying the higher debuff from live to a lower starting point here on Phoenix it pushes characters to a super debuffed state which never actually existed on Live at any point in its history.

Are you listening Gruenesschaf?

shut up already

lol are you scared that someone will reverse your new ez-mode?

You're pathetic.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:55 AM by jelzinga_EU

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 7:22 PM
i am not talking about absolute debuff, im talking about debuffed values before and after patch... i did about 200 with debuff prior the change nad now 150 soo the absolute % value is way higher ... without debuff it is something like 230

That is ... very odd. I don't quite understand how the debuff affects you so much more than it affects me. It might be that there is some double-dipping going on seeing as you use STR/DEX weapons.

Should test it in a duel, your damage without enervating and with enervating to see the numbers precisely.

I do not think a 35% reduction in damage is intended (assuming your numbers are correct). Not that I do not believe you, but your wording ("about"

tells me your numbers are not precise, that would be step #1.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:59 AM by jelzinga_EU

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 9:14 PM
Where this is completely wrong is that the higher values are intended for live where people hit much harder, stats are much higher (Str/Dex/Con/Qui), and TOAs and Mythirians push damage beyond normal (bonuses to base damage, style damage, speed, etc.) By applying the higher debuff from live to a lower starting point here on Phoenix it pushes characters to a super debuffed state which never actually existed on Live at any point in its history.

Are you listening Gruenesschaf?

Please provide exact numbers. What is your damage on a specific assassin before and after debuff. On my SB it is 27.5% damage-reduction, what is it on your merc/ranger/whatever you're playing now ?

It is not helping to shout and scream without providing test-data. Higher stats, TOA and what not shouldn't matter with a %-wise reduction - so I don't get your remark about that.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 4:28 AM by

gruenesschaf

A different and valid argument would be this: With wskill debuff now being fixed to mechanically work like it does on live, it might be reasonable to reduce the actual debuffed % by the poison to not have as much of a total change at the end, not because it's bugged, not because it never existed, but just because the % debuffed is just too large and was always too large, it's just that due to a wrong implementation the too large value wasn't an issue as the absolute impact was the same as if the debuffed % was much lower.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 4:49 AM by REVOLTE

With wskill debuff now being fixed to mechanically work like it does on live, it might be reasonable to reduce the actual debuffed % by the poison to not have as much of a total change at the end, not because it's bugged, not because it never existed, but just because the % debuffed is just too large and was always too large, it's just that due to a wrong implementation the too large value wasn't an issue as the absolute impact was the same as if the debuffed % was much lower.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 5:24 AM by Turano

The ws/con debuff should debuff exactly what an equivalent str/con (or in case of dex/str weapons dex/str/con) debuff would.
Not more, not less

Tue 13 Aug 2019 5:30 AM by Tigerforce

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:46 AM
Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:21 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 9:14 PM
Where this is completely wrong is that the higher values are intended for live where people hit much harder, stats are much higher (Str/Dex/Con/Qui), and TOAs and Mythirians push damage beyond normal (bonuses to base damage, style damage, speed, etc.) By applying the higher debuff from live to a lower starting point here on Phoenix it pushes characters to a super debuffed state which never actually existed on Live at any point in its history.

Are you listening Gruenesschaf?

shut up already

lol are you scared that someone will reverse your new ez-mode?

You're pathetic.

quiet frank no, 200 solo kills a week 300k+ rps I could care less whether my poison works or not lol, won't stop me from gaining RP's. It sounds like however it effected your play, by the sound of you QQ'ing. All this has done is level the playing field for stealthers to have better chances at tanks. Tanks have try a little bit harder that's it. Even today I still get killed my BM's, Champs, hero, Warrior.... obviously did not make a big impact on balance. The only impact it seems to of really made, is exposing avg players of a class to make them worker harder to get rp's (not that its really even that hard, like I said tanks can kill me in 3-4 hits) Essentially it means if you were "Average" probably shows your real skill at the class meaning you suck. Sorry but that's what all the bitching sounds like and actually is.

Again, I still die to tanks and light tanks, why is that? Perhaps they are good well-temp'd. Do the same.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 6:42 AM by inoeth

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 5:30 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:46 AM
Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:21 AM
shut up already

lol are you scared that someone will reverse your new ez-mode?

You're pathetic.

quiet frank no, 200 solo kills a week 300k+ rps I could care less whether my poison works or not lol, won't stop me from gaining RP's. It sounds like however it effected your play, by the sound of you QQ'ing. All this has done is level the playing field for stealthers to have better chances at tanks. Tanks have try a little bit harder that's it. Even today I still get killed my BM's, Champs, hero, Warrior.... obviously did not make a big impact on balance. The only impact it seems to of really made, is exposing avg players of a class to make them worker harder to get rp's (not that its really even that hard, like I said tanks can kill me in 3-4 hits) Essentially it means if you were "Average" probably shows your real skill at the class meaning you suck. Sorry but that's what all the bitching sounds like and actually is.

Again, I still die to tanks and light tanks, why is that? Perhaps they are good well-temp'd. Do the same.

stop this lying about better chances at tanks... its better chances vs all!! but it was only necessary vs tank. and it has nothing to do with "skill" when you suddenly do alot less dmg now.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 6:48 AM by Stoertebecker

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 4:28 AM
A different and valid argument would be this: With wskill debuff now being fixed to mechanically work like it does on live, it might be reasonable to reduce the actual debuffed % by the poison to not have as much of a total change at the end, not because it's bugged, not because it never existed, but just because the % debuffed is just too large and was always too large, it's just that due to a wrong implementation the too large value wasn't an issue as the absolute impact was the same as if the debuffed % was much lower.

Why do you use the live server (2019) as a reference for a server that has its setup somewhere around 2003/4? Just because you don`t any other server to compare?

Tue 13 Aug 2019 6:59 AM by Sepplord

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 9:14 PM
Where this is completely wrong is that the higher values are intended for live where people hit much harder, stats are much higher (Str/Dex/Con/Qui), and TOAs and Mythirians push damage beyond normal (bonuses to base damage, style damage, speed, etc.) By applying the higher debuff from live to a lower starting point here on Phoenix it pushes characters to a super debuffed state which never actually existed on Live at any point in its history.

Are you listening Gruenesschaf?

Could you elaborate why a higher base of stats on live matters at all when the debuff is a %-application? Because i currently have no idea what you are complaining about

Tue 13 Aug 2019 7:15 AM by REVOLTE

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 6:59 AM
Could you elaborate why a higher base of stats on live matters at all when the debuff is a %-application? Because i currently have no idea what you are complaining about

to be fair, base stats, in comparison to phoenix, have less impact on the performance of a character on live.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 7:21 AM by

gruenesschaf

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 6:48 AM
^
Why do you use the live server (2019) as a reference for a server that has its setup somewhere around 2003/4? Just because you don`t any other server to compare?

There is no other way to test and once more, pretty much all mechanics / formulas are either entirely unchanged or have just had stuff added onto them to implement the new stats which is why for formulas it's perfectly reasonable to test on live.
E.g. the melee formula, toa damage or the new mythical dps are just additional multipliers on top of what was there before, pretty much working exactly the same way as the two handed spec based damage bonus, the same is true for pretty much all "new" stats.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 7:22 AM by Sepplord

REVOLTE wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 7:15 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 6:59 AM
Could you elaborate why a higher base of stats on live matters at all when the debuff is a %-application? Because i currently have no idea what you are complaining about

to be fair, base stats, in comparison to phoenix, have less impact on the performance of a character on live.

I wasn't referring to the base-stats of a character

i am referring to the higher "base of stats" on live that the debuff gets applied to (aka "base" is here used in context of the percentage calculations, not regarding the games base stats. Sorry if this is worded confusingly, english is just my second language)

Tue 13 Aug 2019 7:37 AM by

gruenesschaf

REVOLTE wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 7:15 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 6:59 AM
Could you elaborate why a higher base of stats on live matters at all when the debuff is a %-application? Because i currently have no idea what you are complaining about

to be fair, base stats, in comparison to phoenix, have less impact on the performance of a character on live.

Base stats have more of an impact here, however, a reduction by 90 weapon stat were and are still about 18ish% damage when you had 300 weapon stat before. At 400 str a 90 stat debuff is obviously less of the total, only 15%.

100
* 2.50 <--- 1 + weapon stat / 2 * 0.01, here e. g. 300 str
* 1 <-- toa damage
* 1 <-- mythical dps
= 250

100
* 2.05 <-- 1 + weapon stat / 2, here 300 str - 90 = 210 str
* 1 <-- toa damage
* 1 <-- mythical dps
= 205

205 / 250 = 82%

or

100
* 2.5 <--- 1 + weapon stat / 2 * 0.01, here e. g. 300 str
* 1.1 <-- toa damage
* 1.1 <-- mythical dps
= 302.5

100
* 2.05 <--- 1 + weapon stat / 2 * 0.01, here 300 str - 90 = 210 str
* 1.1 <-- toa damage
* 1.1 <-- mythical dps
= 248.05

248.05/302.5 = 82%

Tue 13 Aug 2019 7:53 AM by

gruenesschaf

Anyways, the next update will reduce the debuffed weaponskill % from 21 to about 13% for the level 47 poison. That makes it still noticeably better than what it was before the last change but also pretty much the same as the original 118 str/con debuff reduced the damage for str weapon users at 300 str, which was the intent when moving to wskill / con debuff in the first place.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:01 AM by REVOLTE

i see, i see.
my mistake was, i thought the dmg formula used a base of GEAR + STATS (simplified ofc) and not GEAR * STATS.

that makes my point completely moot.
i appreciate your effort and feel bad now for wasting your time

Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:03 AM by inoeth

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 7:53 AM
Anyways, the next update will reduce the debuffed weaponskill % from 21 to about 13% for the level 47 poison. That makes it still noticeably better than what it was before the last change but also pretty much the same as the original 118 str/con debuff reduced the damage for str weapon users at 300 str, which was the intent when moving to wskill / con debuff in the first place.

phew thx hopefully this is playable again

Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:03 AM by

gruenesschaf

REVOLTE wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:01 AM
i see, i see.
my mistake was, i thought the dmg formula used a base of GEAR + STATS (simplified ofc) and not GEAR * STATS.

that makes my point completely moot.
i appreciate your effort and feel bad now for wasting your time

Well toa / mythical damage work in a different place, basically changing the weapon dps like the twohanded bonus, ie 16.2 * 1.1 etc. which in the end is multiplied by the speed and then multiplied with the damage modifier (which is where stats come into play) so the "formula" above was super simplified but unless you hit for cap where exactly that multiplication happens doesn't exactly matter (toa damage, 2h bonus or really anything affecting dps would for example increase the cap whereas stats wouldn't).

Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:10 AM by REVOLTE

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:03 AM
Well toa / mythical damage work in a different place, basically changing the weapon dps like the twohanded bonus, ie 16.2 * 1.1 etc. which in the end is multiplied by the speed and then multiplied with the damage modifier (which is where stats come into play) so the "formula" above was super simplified.

eh, i never considered mythical/toa boni playing a role here.
it was just the basic mistake of assuming that stats and weapon stat (multiplied by whatever, doesnt matter in that context) were simply added together and then multiplied (which would have shifted the impact of a stat-only debuff)

i was wrong, i feel bad, please dont waste anymore time on my bullshit

Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:46 AM by Stoertebecker

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 7:21 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 6:48 AM
^
Why do you use the live server (2019) as a reference for a server that has its setup somewhere around 2003/4? Just because you don`t any other server to compare?

There is no other way to test and once more, pretty much all mechanics / formulas are either entirely unchanged or have just had stuff added onto to implement the new stats which is why for formulas it's perfectly reasonable to test on live.
E.g. the melee formula, toa damage or the new mythical dps are just additional multipliers on top of what was there before, pretty much working exactly the same way as relic bonuses, the same is true for pretty much all "new" stats.

And you noticed that the debuff poison isn`t working as intended (or as on live) after.... 8 month (+ beta)?

It`s a huge difference between getting debuffed on live and here on Phoenix.
And i don`t think that the mechanics/formulars were unchanged after the last major class overhaul in 2013.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:50 AM by

gruenesschaf

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:46 AM
And you noticed that the debuff poison isn`t working as intended (or as on live) after.... 8 month (+ beta)?

Nobody reported that the enervating poison is reducing the damage by a way too small amount, basically until the last change it worked like a 16% weapon stat debuff, e. g. a 48 str debuff against a 300 str opponent.

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:46 AM
It`s a huge difference between getting debuffed on live and here on Phoenix.

Not really sure what that's supposed to mean

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:46 AM
And i don`t think that the mechanics/formulars were unchanged after the last major class overhaul in 2013.

Good for you. Because the necro now being an actual caster with some melee buffs or warlock now being a spread healer with plate absorb has really a lot to do with formulas changing and is not just an example of values being changed or new spells giving some values being introduced.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 9:03 AM by Taniquetil

gruenesschaf wrote: Anyways, the next update will reduce the debuffed weaponskill % from 21 to about 13% for the level 47 poison. That makes it still noticeably better than what it was before the last change but also pretty much the same as the original 118 str/con debuff reduced the damage for str weapon users at 300 str, which was the intent when moving to wskill / con debuff in the first place.

GG's @Gruenes agree current state a tad much, i'd imagine you might settle somewhere between the 21 and 13% values eventually. Well done as always for testing/learning.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 9:32 AM by Stoertebecker

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:50 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:46 AM
And you noticed that the debuff poison isn`t working as intended (or as on live) after.... 8 month (+ beta)?
Nobody reported that the enervating poison is reducing the damage by a way too small amount, basically until the last change it worked like a 16% weapon stat debuff, e. g. a 48 str debuff against a 300 str opponent.

Maybe because assassins on Phoenix thought the debuff is ok as it is. That would mean you changed something without need.

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:46 AM
It`s a huge difference between getting debuffed on live and here on Phoenix.

Not really sure what that's supposed to mean[/quote]

Well, i`ve played nearly the complete last year on live, mostly a sexy Shar-Ranger or a Norse Hunter. As an example...
Both had around 4k+ hitpoints and between 17xx and 2k weaponskill, (the Ranger a bit more due higher rr11+), important stats were always capped.
Do you really think it was a problem getting w/s debuffed by an assassin? With 4k+ hitpoints and all the tools archers have on live?

How the w/s debuff works on Phoenix atm is a problem, a hunter (example) has no 4k+ hp and not the tools they have on live.
But If you`re going to change it to a moderate value... we`ll see how it works.

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:46 AM
And i don`t think that the mechanics/formulars were unchanged after the last major class overhaul in 2013.

Good for you. Because the necro now being an actual caster with some melee buffs or warlock now being a spread healer with plate absorb has really a lot to do with formulas changing and is not just an example of values being changed or new spells giving some values being introduced.
[/quote]

Necro can take all roles he want on live, not that ridicilous op (if it comes to solo) as on Phoenix, but overall not the worst char.

Spread heal on a warlock, well, better than a healer for sure. But he`s lacking damage with this spec.

But comparing live with Phoenix....

Tue 13 Aug 2019 12:33 PM by bm01

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 4:28 AM
A different and valid argument would be this: With wskill debuff now being fixed to mechanically work like it does on live, it might be reasonable to reduce the actual debuffed % by the poison to not have as much of a total change at the end, not because it's bugged, not because it never existed, but just because the % debuffed is just too large and was always too large, it's just that due to a wrong implementation the too large value wasn't an issue as the absolute impact was the same as if the debuffed % was much lower.

That makes sense. Still, I believe it would have been nice if the debuff value adjustment was done as the same time as the fix, to not alter players experience with something that isn't really intended and that may or may not stay... But anyways, I'm not criticizing, thanks for replying and spending time on all of this.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 2:54 PM by Tigerforce

Despite the technicalities of the %, that doesn't mean "Balance" or at least in the way of a video game and different classes. Meaning you cant balance a mage class to fight X Class, and a Stealther to have that same "balanced advantage" that, that mage had against X class to have the same advantage against another class. Its an endless cycle of buff and nerf'ing.

A stealthier SHOULD have a near guaranteed chance to killing or having the upper hand in the target he/she opens up on. Despite how strong the poison may be, its essentially only ONE class he's or she is going to take down. Their class skill set is not designed to resist/block lots of dmg or (Adds) or take on multiple targets. Meaning the stealthier needs the advantage of the 1v1. They do not offer any group assistance. Those grp friendly classes that wish to solo, need to understand this, you are putting yourself at the disadvantage, due to the very nature of a "ASSASSIN".

The only way I see for the WS poison to be brought back down is to supply sins with their mezz pots. Its a reset for them in a fight much like IP is for other classes. Every class has some form of way to reset themselves due to adds or w/e situation they are facing whether its they have some aoe CC, or anytime stun +IP ect. Having a sin who has 1 WS debuff on 1 sword that can be Purged and swapped only 1 other time (before dying most likely) is not the end of the world. They are not taking out 3,4,5 people, like some other classes are capable of if played very well.

Again, ASSASSIN is not a brawler, its not some dual wielding barbarian, they rely on their stealth and poisons, just like any other game that associates a class with some kind of assassination skill set. This should not be new to any type of fantasy role-playing game player base.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:12 PM by Stoertebecker

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 2:54 PM
A stealthier SHOULD have a near guaranteed chance to killing or having the upper hand in the target he/she opens up on.

But not against fulltanks in plate or chain and wearing a shield. What kind of logic is that?

The only way I see for the WS poison to be brought back down is to supply sins with their mezz pots.

Yeah, sure, that exactly what this server needs, assassins with mezz pots or mezz poison as another option beside vanish to escape or reset a fight.

Then give stealth lore and remedy to all classes as a passive ability on a 10 min reuse timer.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:22 PM by cere2

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 2:54 PM
Despite the technicalities of the %, that doesn't mean "Balance" or at least in the way of a video game and different classes. Meaning you cant balance a mage class to fight X Class, and a Stealther to have that same "balanced advantage" that, that mage had against X class to have the same advantage against another class. Its an endless cycle of buff and nerf'ing.

A stealthier SHOULD have a near guaranteed chance to killing or having the upper hand in the target he/she opens up on. Despite how strong the poison may be, its essentially only ONE class he's or she is going to take down. Their class skill set is not designed to resist/block lots of dmg or (Adds) or take on multiple targets. Meaning the stealthier needs the advantage of the 1v1. They do not offer any group assistance. Those grp friendly classes that wish to solo, need to understand this, you are putting yourself at the disadvantage, due to the very nature of a "ASSASSIN".

The only way I see for the WS poison to be brought back down is to supply sins with their mezz pots. Its a reset for them in a fight much like IP is for other classes. Every class has some form of way to reset themselves due to adds or w/e situation they are facing whether its they have some aoe CC, or anytime stun +IP ect. Having a sin who has 1 WS debuff on 1 sword that can be Purged and swapped only 1 other time (before dying most likely) is not the end of the world. They are not taking out 3,4,5 people, like some other classes are capable of if played very well.

Again, ASSASSIN is not a brawler, its not some dual wielding barbarian, they rely on their stealth and poisons, just like any other game that associates a class with some kind of assassination skill set. This should not be new to any type of fantasy role-playing game player base.

Assassin's do have a reset. It's vanish. If a sin uses vanish they have essentially reset the fight. Especially if they vanished when someone was sub 20% with 1:10 sec left of disease. The debuff posion's are needing to be reduced. The values would be fine with someone that has 404 str, but most here have maybe 300, which makes the debuff along with a stacking weapon proc make someone hit like a wet noodle, while having their HP dropped by 400+. I agree assassin should have upper hand if they land an opener.
State of the game now is assassin doesn't need to land opener. Poisons/debuffs do almost all the work.
It is kind of like called shots on Live, faceroll.

I have watched multiple video's of assassin's, I have honestly yet to see one that had some type of "dancing" skill landing positionals etc. Every single vid is reactionaries with people sticking target. I am not saying I am some great player, but I can honestly land positionals on 90% of the population here at will.
Even when I start a fight landing positionals, I still have to blow everything to have a slight chance of winning if I am not playing an assassin.

Reducing to a % base I hope will be a better solution.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:32 PM by Tigerforce

Vanish is not a reset lol, its a more "get out of jail free card". Especially since it comes with a 30second disarm that cant be purged, and EVEN especially since there are stealth lore pots. That equation makes vanish completely useless at times and a waste of minimum 5 rp skill pts.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:42 PM by Stoertebecker

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:32 PM
Vanish is not a reset lol, its a more "get out of jail free card". Especially since it comes with a 30second disarm that cant be purged, and EVEN especially since there are stealth lore pots. That equation makes vanish completely useless at times and a waste of minimum 5 rp skill pts.

Spec vanish 2 or 3?
Btw, for 60 mins stealthlore you need 60 pots...600 claws.

As a tip, if you want snare poison without a timer or mezz poison, play on live.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:47 PM by cere2

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:32 PM
Vanish is not a reset lol, its a more "get out of jail free card". Especially since it comes with a 30second disarm that cant be purged, and EVEN especially since there are stealth lore pots. That equation makes vanish completely useless at times and a waste of minimum 5 rp skill pts.

Then you are not utilizing the skill to it's potential like some others are. 30 sec's of disarm yes. Can you heal up during that time?
What about your target, is his/her purge down now? Does it have disease on? In 30 secs can I not re-engage and utterly destroy said target?

Yes at times vanish is just an escape tool. Other times, its a reset that allows you to dominate someone who may have been dominating you.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:56 PM by jelzinga_EU

cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:22 PM
I have watched multiple video's of assassin's, I have honestly yet to see one that had some type of "dancing" skill landing positionals etc. Every single vid is reactionaries with people sticking target. I am not saying I am some great player, but I can honestly land positionals on 90% of the population here at will.
Even when I start a fight landing positionals, I still have to blow everything to have a slight chance of winning if I am not playing an assassin.

Pointless to try and land a positional at 50 LA : The arc of the back is too small to do it reliably which makes the trade-off, in my eyes, bigger than the gain, especially since the big damage comes from 3rd in chain..

If I had a side-chain in Left-Axe at all I would try it, but since I do not have it.... gg

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:58 PM by Taniquetil

cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:47 PM
Yes at times vanish is just an escape tool. Other times, its a reset that allows you to dominate someone who may have been dominating you.

This.

Also Tigerforce, if you're vanishing from a 1v1 at 1% life like you did to me yesterday, you're using it wrong.

Either tactically reset a fight against a more powerful opponent or use it to escape full groups. Bailing at low% life will more often than not get you killed. You're just lucky the 8 man turned up that time to save you.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 5:39 PM by Kemoauc

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 2:54 PM
A stealthier SHOULD have a near guaranteed chance to killing or having the upper hand in the target he/she opens up on. Despite how strong the poison may be, its essentially only ONE class he's or she is going to take down. Their class skill set is not designed to resist/block lots of dmg or (Adds) or take on multiple targets. Meaning the stealthier needs the advantage of the 1v1. They do not offer any group assistance. Those grp friendly classes that wish to solo, need to understand this, you are putting yourself at the disadvantage, due to the very nature of a "ASSASSIN".

This is going to be completely off topic.

Let's entertain the thought that assassins should have the upper hand against anyone they open up on:

The only thing that would happen is that nobody would play any other class solo anymore. Why do you think there are no solo wizards, cabalists, elds, enchs etc? They would do well enough against other visibles like me to make them viable. But they get farmed and farmed and farmed by assassins (or stealthers in general) that are unavoidable for them because stealthers can hide from everything that would kill them and can wait for the solo casters that have no way of surviving if purge is up. The requirement to play a solo visible is basically the ability to deal with stealthers.

Stealth is such a bad concept in general and leads to frustration on both sides. The classes that die to them stop playing solo and stealthers complain that they die to the rest of the classes and have to make their rps killing lowlvl/low rr people on the way to the zerg. The game would probably be better off without stealthers.

It is the general dilemma of solo players that if they are strong they will find no fights anymore because nobody is willing to die to them. As a strong visible class (vs other melee) I have a hard time finding fights because the majority of other solo melee visibles know and run from me, stealthers don't attack anymore and solo casters almost don't exist. By now, I'm basically fighting champs and thanes only in the /bow 1vs1 zones because the rest gave up because they don't win often enough.

However, in my case I can't force people to fight and they can group up and take me down because I can't hide which regulates the number of solo visibles as can be seen by the only handful of people that acually play solo on such classes. If an assassin would win every fight this server would be boring very very quickly because there is no remedy other than playing a stealther yourself.

I still think that assassins have a good chance to win against a lot of melee classes because a lot of them are specced for group play and/or don't have RA's like IP.

This comment is not referring to the poison change. I don't know how it affected balance at all because I did not play a lot the last few days. I'm just giving my two cents on general balancing of assassins.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:00 PM by Tigerforce

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:58 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:47 PM
Yes at times vanish is just an escape tool. Other times, its a reset that allows you to dominate someone who may have been dominating you.

This.

Also Tigerforce, if you're vanishing from a 1v1 at 1% life like you did to me yesterday, you're using it wrong.

Either tactically reset a fight against a more powerful opponent or use it to escape full groups. Bailing at low% life will more often than not get you killed. You're just lucky the 8 man turned up that time to save you.

I used it cuz the 3 mids came and added. Meaning I was banking on them killing u with casts while leaving me alive at w/e %. I pan when fighting. You cannot dominate with Vanish... you can only be annoying. The only time I guess you can "dominate" with it is if your going to kill someone with PA chain who is standing in keep or in a group forming up.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:04 PM by Tigerforce

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:42 PM
Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:32 PM
Vanish is not a reset lol, its a more "get out of jail free card". Especially since it comes with a 30second disarm that cant be purged, and EVEN especially since there are stealth lore pots. That equation makes vanish completely useless at times and a waste of minimum 5 rp skill pts.

Spec vanish 2 or 3?
Btw, for 60 mins stealthlore you need 60 pots...600 claws.

As a tip, if you want snare poison without a timer or mezz poison, play on live.

Never said I wanted it, I just said if they're take away the WS debuff from ppl QQ'ing to add something else. Even mezz pot is not a big deal 15sec that breaks on 1 hit. Let alone the way Det/Stoc works, its not making big impacts.

Stealth pots have what 3-5 charges each? not 1. Even so people tend to blow them simply cuz they running on a bridge or w/e they do not save them for vanish. The ones that do find the vanish stealthier very frequently.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:13 PM by Tigerforce

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:58 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:47 PM
Yes at times vanish is just an escape tool. Other times, its a reset that allows you to dominate someone who may have been dominating you.

This.

Also Tigerforce, if you're vanishing from a 1v1 at 1% life like you did to me yesterday, you're using it wrong.

Either tactically reset a fight against a more powerful opponent or use it to escape full groups. Bailing at low% life will more often than not get you killed. You're just lucky the 8 man turned up that time to save you.

I just read the rest of your thing, and remember the fight now on the dock. I did use it right (From my point of view) which situation dictates and change of "Usage" depending on situation. I SAW them coming + I SAW I was about to die. In order for me to save myself from the next 1-2 hits to keep me from dying I vanished. Knowing they wld take you out. I didn't get lucky and choose to vanish not knowing they were coming.... obviously from that point of view it makes me look like a tard who got lucky.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 9:18 PM by Stoertebecker

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:04 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:42 PM
Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:32 PM
Vanish is not a reset lol, its a more "get out of jail free card". Especially since it comes with a 30second disarm that cant be purged, and EVEN especially since there are stealth lore pots. That equation makes vanish completely useless at times and a waste of minimum 5 rp skill pts.

Spec vanish 2 or 3?
Btw, for 60 mins stealthlore you need 60 pots...600 claws.

As a tip, if you want snare poison without a timer or mezz poison, play on live.

Never said I wanted it, I just said if they're take away the WS debuff from ppl QQ'ing to add something else. Even mezz pot is not a big deal 15sec that breaks on 1 hit. Let alone the way Det/Stoc works, its not making big impacts.

I think assassins have already enough tools on this server. That will end in an endless loop, i`ve played against such crap last year on live. Alone the snare poison had no immunity timer, was really nice with this perma snare....

Stealth pots have what 3-5 charges each? not 1. Even so people tend to blow them simply cuz they running on a bridge or w/e they do not save them for vanish. The ones that do find the vanish stealthier very frequently.

Correct, my bad. Still 120 claws for 1h stealtlore. Atm for 3p+ in the Midgard hz.

I don`t know, i think the server is atm not in the best shape. It was way better within the first 5 month.
But thats just me...maybe, maybe it`s time to take a break.

A stealthier SHOULD have a near guaranteed chance to killing or having the upper hand in the target he/she opens up on.

This quote alone shows the problematic. Assassins thinking they should be able to kill each other class, even if it`s a fulltank in the best armor and wearing a shield.
This thinking is as old as daoc and never changed * We are the Top of the foodchain, noone should beat us in a 1v1*.
I´m pretty sure the first player that used a buffbot was an assassin or an archer....
The answer is...no, an assassin should never have a change against a fulltank with a similar rr, templated and on the same skilllevel.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 10:21 PM by Tigerforce

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 9:18 PM
Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 8:04 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:42 PM
Spec vanish 2 or 3?
Btw, for 60 mins stealthlore you need 60 pots...600 claws.

As a tip, if you want snare poison without a timer or mezz poison, play on live.

Never said I wanted it, I just said if they're take away the WS debuff from ppl QQ'ing to add something else. Even mezz pot is not a big deal 15sec that breaks on 1 hit. Let alone the way Det/Stoc works, its not making big impacts.

I think assassins have already enough tools on this server. That will end in an endless loop, i`ve played against such crap last year on live. Alone the snare poison had no immunity timer, was really nice with this perma snare....

Stealth pots have what 3-5 charges each? not 1. Even so people tend to blow them simply cuz they running on a bridge or w/e they do not save them for vanish. The ones that do find the vanish stealthier very frequently.

Correct, my bad. Still 120 claws for 1h stealtlore. Atm for 3p+ in the Midgard hz.

I don`t know, i think the server is atm not in the best shape. It was way better within the first 5 month.
But thats just me...maybe, maybe it`s time to take a break.

A stealthier SHOULD have a near guaranteed chance to killing or having the upper hand in the target he/she opens up on.

This quote alone shows the problematic. Assassins thinking they should be able to kill each other class, even if it`s a fulltank in the best armor and wearing a shield.
This thinking is as old as daoc and never changed * We are the Top of the foodchain, noone should beat us in a 1v1*.
I´m pretty sure the first player that used a buffbot was an assassin or an archer....
The answer is...no, an assassin should never have a change against a fulltank with a similar rr, templated and on the same skilllevel.

Even if that is the case, simply not ridding out chances of poison to kill the other classes fixes this. The only thing to do is to buff the tanks to combat such poisons. This is the issue and always has been with Nerfs. Things are always being nerf'd which depletes every class eventually. I have no issue in not being able to kill Warrior/Arms/Heros, but if this "should" be the case then giving them a passive of "Natural Immunities" or something to have higher rests chances or just resists in general or a /use to self remedy wld be needed. Not Nerfing us back to where, we are in the same boat.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 10:33 PM by Tigerforce

Every game to have a steather class has always given the edge to the stealthier towards a single target. EVERY GAME. Why? Because they have little bit better def/health then a caster, therefor die easily/quick. Which means they need to dish out dmg quickly to kill their target. Why is this again you may ask? Well most stealthers in all platforms do not offer any group type benefit, therefor are lone wolves. They need this high dps or "advantages" to be able to take out targets to make their class/play style viable. Again, its not me who thinks this, its every game creator who has instilled some form of stealther class to a game. Its what we see in real history, the word "Assassin" literally makes us think of someone hidden who gonna kill u in 3 ways, poison, distance, shiv's.

This mind set is the exact mindset that you have in thinking Tanks being the top of the food chain. As much as that does makes sense.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 12:54 AM by bm01

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 10:33 PM
Every game to have a steather class has always given the edge to the stealthier towards a single target. EVERY GAME. Why? Because they have little bit better def/health then a caster, therefor die easily/quick. Which means they need to dish out dmg quickly to kill their target. Why is this again you may ask? Well most stealthers in all platforms do not offer any group type benefit, therefor are lone wolves. They need this high dps or "advantages" to be able to take out targets to make their class/play style viable. Again, its not me who thinks this, its every game creator who has instilled some form of stealther class to a game. Its what we see in real history, the word "Assassin" literally makes us think of someone hidden who gonna kill u in 3 ways, poison, distance, shiv's.

This mind set is the exact mindset that you have in thinking Tanks being the top of the food chain. As much as that does makes sense.

Well... Not really. All of this comes from the assassin archetype, and ideally you'd be going behind the enemy lines to spy and kill specific targets in their sleep or poison their tea, but that simply doesn't work in MMORPGs. So they had to come up with something a little different, and now you're some kind of fighter (that doesn't make much sense, but that's another topic). If you want to be true to the assassin archetype, you wouldn't even be able to scratch a tank's armor.

But anyway, wanting stealth classes to be able kill any other class in 1v1 on the grounds that they're bring something to groups and you don't is silly for various reasons. First, you don't make a class weaker in a certain environment or situation because it's stronger in another. If a class happens to be good both in solo and group, that's good. Very good. The other reason is that you would quickly run out of targets because DAoC isn't an open PvP game. You're complaining that tanks are running around waiting to get PA'ed, now imagine if they knew they had no chance to win, well there would simply be no tank running around. The same way there no mages running around. It would just be stealthers against stealthers. Do you really want that?

Wed 14 Aug 2019 1:17 AM by Tigerforce

bm01 wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 12:54 AM
Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 10:33 PM
Every game to have a steather class has always given the edge to the stealthier towards a single target. EVERY GAME. Why? Because they have little bit better def/health then a caster, therefor die easily/quick. Which means they need to dish out dmg quickly to kill their target. Why is this again you may ask? Well most stealthers in all platforms do not offer any group type benefit, therefor are lone wolves. They need this high dps or "advantages" to be able to take out targets to make their class/play style viable. Again, its not me who thinks this, its every game creator who has instilled some form of stealther class to a game. Its what we see in real history, the word "Assassin" literally makes us think of someone hidden who gonna kill u in 3 ways, poison, distance, shiv's.

This mind set is the exact mindset that you have in thinking Tanks being the top of the food chain. As much as that does makes sense.
Well... Not really. All of this comes from the assassin archetype, and ideally you'd be going behind the enemy lines to spy and kill specific targets in their sleep or poison their tea, but that simply doesn't work in MMORPGs. So they had to come up with something a little different, and now you're some kind of fighter (that doesn't make much sense, but that's another topic). If you want to be true to the assassin archetype, you wouldn't even be able to scratch a tank's armor.

But anyway, wanting stealth classes to be able kill any other class in 1v1 on the grounds that they're bring something to groups and you don't is silly for various reasons. First, you don't make a class weaker in a certain environment or situation because it's stronger in another. If a class happens to be good both in solo and group, that's good. Very good. The other reason is that you would quickly run out of targets because DAoC isn't an open PvP game. You're complaining that tanks are running around waiting to get PA'ed, now imagine if they knew they had no chance to win, well there would simply be no tank running around. The same way there no mages running around. It would just be stealthers against stealthers. Do you really want that?

Clearly subjective. There are tons of example where a single person (spy or assassin) is sent to kill a "Big target" or corporation, whatever analogy u wana use for as "tank" or something that's not meant to be destroyed by a single unit. For instance how many battles have been won due to 1 dude sneaking around using 1 bomb to blow a tanks tracks ect… same concepts. Its just a mixture of different, in your words "archtypes". For instance they took Ninjas, Spy, Assassins (poisoning shits) and kinda combined all of their aspects together, since they are related. This argument can go on forever, since again.... ITS PURELY SUBJECTIVE in what one considered a spy or assassin ect… We can only go off what all other games preserved this class to pertain and act. Which they are all SIMILAR in a way.

Its already mostly like that, just like on live. Only stealthers meet and greet at 1v1 zones. The occasional DW merc/zerk/bm will show up or heavy tank. You didn't understand my argument. You do need to make a class stronger in areas against others that are weak. Its like a dam cycle, which maintains balance. If you change that then you end up games like ESO where all classes can stealth, all classes can wear heavy armor, wields 2h's Dual wield ect…. craziness. OR you need up with a game that's gone through so many NERF and BUFFS due to QQ and what communities beg for that its just becomes a mess and a completely different game like what World of Warcraft is today. Every class has a way to heal, tank, dps ect…. Leaving no class unique. Which then leads to dullness and futher no need for certain classes ect.. negative spiral.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 1:22 AM by Numatic

bm01 wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 12:54 AM
First, you don't make a class weaker in a certain environment or situation because it's stronger in another.

Just wanted to point out, that this is literally what daoc is. Every single class is situational and shines in one area while being absolutely garbage in another (typically). Pbaoe, garbage in open field. Great at keep defense. TWF? Same thing. Paladins? Great 1v1 class, but doesnt have as much value anywhere else. Same thing with champs. Solo caster? As good as dead. Caster in a group? Major range DPS.

Everything in daoc is about making a class great at something but bad at another. They all have downsides.

Tanks in DAoC are not like tanks in other games. They arent expected to be this god tier meat shield. They excel at absorbing damage in a group, but solo they can be cheesed.

Assasins should shine above most in the solo play field. Because that's what they are. Soloers. They bring nothing to a group, so they are forced to pick fights with stragglers. The main defense against an assasin is being in a grp, or having friendlies nearby. I watch all day long as fights break out and I cant help on my SB, because I'll die instantly without group support. This is the trade off.

I'm not saying assasins should be OP soloers because of it, but I hate this notion that assasins should be weaker at soloing a tank because they have stealth. Tanks are big bulky meat targets. Assasins are agile opportunists. Even a lone tank should be afraid of an assasin.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 7:17 AM by Stoertebecker

Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 1:17 AM
Its already mostly like that, just like on live. Only stealthers meet and greet at 1v1 zones. The occasional DW merc/zerk/bm will show up or heavy tank. You didn't understand my argument. You do need to make a class stronger in areas against others that are weak. Its like a dam cycle, which maintains balance. If you change that then you end up games like ESO where all classes can stealth, all classes can wear heavy armor, wields 2h's Dual wield ect…. craziness. OR you need up with a game that's gone through so many NERF and BUFFS due to QQ and what communities beg for that its just becomes a mess and a completely different game like what World of Warcraft is today. Every class has a way to heal, tank, dps ect…. Leaving no class unique. Which then leads to dullness and futher no need for certain classes ect.. negative spiral.

Since you came up with ESO, i´ve played it for 2,5 y from release and it isn`t that easy as described.

All classes can hide, not stealth, nor do all classes have the abilities of an assassin, and even assassins don`t have stealth 24/7 like in DAoC without a cost. Running stealthed costs endurance, which can be reduced with other abilities, items etc. Thats based on the concept of the elder scrolls titles.
Nothing for players that loved the concept of stealth classes in DAoC, nothing for players where the holy trinity is carved in stone.

There`s an interview with MJ around (stream or somewhere at mmorpg.com), a bit older tho, where he talks about his new game (Camelot Unchained) the influence of DAoC to it and what they`ve learned from DAoC. He said that how stealth works in DAoC will not happen again in CU, they just didn`t know it better in 2000/1, further he said that a big part of the issues they had balancing the game was caused by classes that have the ability to stealth. I think thats a clear statement.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 7:21 AM by Sepplord

As an assassin i don't think it would really improve our meta-game if we had the upper hand against Tanks in 1vs1 fights...
like others have said, it would simply mean that less tanks run around, just like you don't see many casters (besides necro/BD) running around solo

The problem is that the stealthwar itself is pretty unbalanced, in combination with no real alternative. Killing a caster out of group/zerg requires them to have fucked up their buffs and their healers to react really slow and you can only do it once every 15minutes or just die after taking out one target. You also have to pray that there is no battery active.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 8:53 AM by Druth

All smoke-screen and mirrors.

No stats/data suggests assassins needed any buffs, they were in the top middle of weekly rps, and how many play them. And considering they are not even wanted in groups and have no AoE for sieges, that is a remarkable feat.
It's all opinions and feelings, coming from people that started their assassin when they could plow through anyone by continuous weapon-switching, and archers had inferior stealth. No wonder you "feel" you need a buff.

The heavy tanks they seem to want to be better at killing, although some sins agree that is not what they want, are bottom feeders, absolute bottom feeders.
Champions didn't even manage to make it to top 250 last week.

It baffles me how anyone could think a game with invisible players that should be able to kill all, and have no HARD counter, is a good idea.
But they have always been extremely vocal, so I am not surprised by this change, and wont be surprised if more is to come.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 2:26 PM by Tigerforce

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 7:17 AM
Tigerforce wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 1:17 AM
Its already mostly like that, just like on live. Only stealthers meet and greet at 1v1 zones. The occasional DW merc/zerk/bm will show up or heavy tank. You didn't understand my argument. You do need to make a class stronger in areas against others that are weak. Its like a dam cycle, which maintains balance. If you change that then you end up games like ESO where all classes can stealth, all classes can wear heavy armor, wields 2h's Dual wield ect…. craziness. OR you need up with a game that's gone through so many NERF and BUFFS due to QQ and what communities beg for that its just becomes a mess and a completely different game like what World of Warcraft is today. Every class has a way to heal, tank, dps ect…. Leaving no class unique. Which then leads to dullness and futher no need for certain classes ect.. negative spiral.

Since you came up with ESO, i´ve played it for 2,5 y from release and it isn`t that easy as described.
All classes can hide, not stealth, nor do all classes have the abilities of an assassin, and even assassins don`t have stealth 24/7 like in DAoC without a cost. Running stealthed costs endurance, which can be reduced with other abilities, items etc. Thats based on the concept of the elder scrolls titles.
Nothing for players that loved the concept of stealth classes in DAoC, nothing for players where the holy trinity is carved in stone.

There`s an interview with MJ around (stream or somewhere at mmorpg.com), a bit older tho, where he talks about his new game (Camelot Unchained) the influence of DAoC to it and what they`ve learned from DAoC. He said that how stealth works in DAoC will not happen again in CU, they just didn`t know it better in 2000/1, further he said that a big part of the issues they had balancing the game was caused by classes that have the ability to stealth. I think thats a clear statement.

First off CU will never happen.... What game sits in limbo for 10-15years. All that thing is, I sa money pit which he keep collecting. Puts in 1-2 mill and receives double that in donations. Its happened multiple times.

It is that simple in ESO, although I didn't go into detail. Yes not every class can stealth, they hide, but the stealth class can be made into any class. You can make a stealth tank/caster/sin w/e. Stealth in that game is abused and worse off. You can claim its uses endo, so what, Stealth creates Crits which is why u can spam it after certain shots getting crits back to back. That's the equivalent to PA > Vanish > PA, how do I know I used to do it on my nightblade with a bow. Also did it on my stealth caster. PLus running around stealth takes soooo little endo and there are sets and way to combat that, again... in the end of the game its like why even have it cost endo when you enver basically run out or have it quickly healed. It would be the same in daoc. Sins would just run higher endo pots.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 2:46 PM by Taniquetil

Sounds like its going fairly off topic now.

On topic, this enerv debuff before the adjustment back down to the current level was ridiculous. I mopped up everything in the 1v1 zone, even Jackle without a PA, that shouldnt happen. Should be close/tough with a PA, without it should be a loss.

Glad its been balanced a bit, needs more testing still, glad they're testing. GG Devs.

p.s. If i got mezz poisons...oh man. This will never happen though. Not even sure I really want it. Maybe for a day, for the lols.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 4:03 PM by chois

ok tested and saw the changements, lost 20/25 pts in anytimer 40/45 on reactive, ty dev, just i join the bus or reroll infi or stop.... Not really a complaint but it s just another thing who stack with all others nerf on scout/up others, Not really nice to see the damage divided by 2 during beta and now.....

Wed 14 Aug 2019 4:08 PM by Turano

chois wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 4:03 PM
ok tested and saw the changements, lost 20/25 pts in anytimer 40/45 on reactive, ty dev, just i join the bus or reroll infi or stop.... Not really a complaint but it s just another thing who stack with all others nerf on scout/up others, Not really nice to see the damage divided by 2 during beta and now.....

I guess archers are once again collateral damage

Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:18 AM by Sepplord

Turano wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 4:08 PM
chois wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 4:03 PM
ok tested and saw the changements, lost 20/25 pts in anytimer 40/45 on reactive, ty dev, just i join the bus or reroll infi or stop.... Not really a complaint but it s just another thing who stack with all others nerf on scout/up others, Not really nice to see the damage divided by 2 during beta and now.....
I guess archers are once again collateral damage

scouts are, rangers and hunters were too strong in melee considering they also have range

but on the other hand, scouts have grouputility which shouldn't be forgotten completely (still think they should get something...at least they shouldn't be worse than rangers when shooting)

Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:49 AM by Wooshh

Do something for scouts, seriously. Nobody cares about groupability, it s a stealth class

Thu 15 Aug 2019 8:32 AM by Druth

Wooshh wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:49 AM
Do something for scouts, seriously. Nobody cares about groupability, it s a stealth class

What are you talking about?
Scouts are staple in all alb 8man groups.
2 cleric, sorc, minst, caba, 3 scouts. No group can deal with that.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 9:10 AM by Sepplord

Wooshh wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:49 AM
Do something for scouts, seriously. Nobody cares about groupability, it s a stealth class

And noone has ever seen a grouped stealthclass?

the stealthgroups are all solos coincidentially camping the same spot

albion stealthgroups already are advantaged with minstrels, scouts add into that with their group utility.

a solo scout is weaker than soloranger/hunter
but if you look at any stealth-duo/trio scout easily outperforms rangers and in most scenarios also hunters

When stealthgroups stop to exist i will agree with what you say

Thu 15 Aug 2019 12:21 PM by Killaloth

A little update after a fights Vs rr10 SB.

I used everything except str/con debuff and won with 5% life left. I'm rvr spec and similar rank.

I had several incs with the same SB before the change and I would still win with roughly 10% life left but without using IP. Roughly a 40% life difference. I would prolly die if not both purge and IP are up but happy with that as I'm not solo soecced.

Still a positive change for me, there's a bit more thrill when running to docks if timers are down.

Sun 18 Aug 2019 4:12 AM by cere2

A straight buff to assassin's. Classic.
I mean the con/str debuff plus weapon proc con/str debuff wasn't enough.
This is just beyond ridiculous.
Guess it's time to roll an assassin again....

Mon 19 Aug 2019 10:18 PM by jwalker

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:59 AM
It is not helping to shout and scream without providing test-data. Higher stats, TOA and what not shouldn't matter with a %-wise reduction - so I don't get your remark about that.

You are missing that we have multiplying values for damage vs. A variety of static values for damage mitigation. Heal/mhb procs and heal pots/items, the impact of weapon procs or dot poisions change their impact.

Here's an fictual example to show my point
1) 200 main 60 offhand damage without debuff
2) 100 main and 30 offhand with debuff poision (50% damage debuff)
3) 300 + 90 damage on life (toa bonus/stats)
4) 150 + 45 damage on life with same 50% debuff

Target has 150 mhb up and full heal procs on armor that accounts for 17 health per hit (10% chance to proc, 225 chest and 125 other pieces)

1) 226 damage (that is the damage of both weapons - heal reproc value × % chance)
2) 96
3) 266
4) 161

So here we would see a true debuff down to 42% (it.means the opponent needs to hit 2.35 times more to kill) while on life it would be a 60% damage debuff meaning 1.67 times more hits.

Same % of debuff totally different outcome. Hope that helps!

Tue 20 Aug 2019 5:55 AM by Cadebrennus

Why is this a unique debuff available only to one set of classes? All other classes must make do with str/con or Dex/qui debuffs (including charges and procs), but no WS debuffs that I'm aware of.

Tue 20 Aug 2019 6:02 AM by Turano

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 5:55 AM
Why is this a unique debuff available only to one set of classes? All other classes must make do with str/con or Dex/qui debuffs (including charges and procs), but no WS debuffs that I'm aware of.

Because SB's complained (rightfully so) for years that the debuff hits them way harder than (thrust) Infils and (pierce) Nightshades. So this was changed eventuelly

Tue 20 Aug 2019 8:09 AM by Cadebrennus

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 6:02 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 5:55 AM
Why is this a unique debuff available only to one set of classes? All other classes must make do with str/con or Dex/qui debuffs (including charges and procs), but no WS debuffs that I'm aware of.
Because SB's complained (rightfully so) for years that the debuff hits them way harder than (thrust) Infils and (pierce) Nightshades. So this was changed eventuelly

But what about the OP'ed Blades NS and OP'ed Slash Infils? Wouldn't that hit them the same?

Look, Assassin players can't have their whines both ways. Either they're hit equally with a Str/Con debuff Vs the "OP" Blades and Slash users, or they have the upper hand armor-table wise (or at least equal) Vs Pierce/Thrust users who aren't as affected by a Str/Con debuff, but are still affected by 50%.

Tue 20 Aug 2019 8:55 AM by Sepplord

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 8:09 AM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 6:02 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 5:55 AM
Why is this a unique debuff available only to one set of classes? All other classes must make do with str/con or Dex/qui debuffs (including charges and procs), but no WS debuffs that I'm aware of.
Because SB's complained (rightfully so) for years that the debuff hits them way harder than (thrust) Infils and (pierce) Nightshades. So this was changed eventuelly

But what about the OP'ed Blades NS and OP'ed Slash Infils? Wouldn't that hit them the same?

Look, Assassin players can't have their whines both ways. Either they're hit equally with a Str/Con debuff Vs the "OP" Blades and Slash users, or they have the upper hand armor-table wise (or at least equal) Vs Pierce/Thrust users who aren't as affected by a Str/Con debuff, but are still affected by 50%.

The changes also decreased the downsides of going blades as NS/Inf and might be a bigger factor in why it is now a much clearer choice. With old-debuff thrust-NS were stronger than they are now. It isn't unreasonable to believe that blade-shades/infs weren't considered much because before thrust was the superior choice, DESPITE worse resist-tables. Then the debuff got changed, heavily decreasing thrust-efficiency in the stealthwar which lead to an overpopulation of blade-users, shining light onto an imbalance that was either not on peoples radar up till then, or not a huge issue since people didn't abuse it as much.

Is that the only possible scenario? Ofcourse not. Is thinking about multiple scenarios better than your instant whining? Imo, clearly yes. (at least you found the right topic for your whines this time)

Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:04 AM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 8:55 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 8:09 AM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 6:02 AM
Because SB's complained (rightfully so) for years that the debuff hits them way harder than (thrust) Infils and (pierce) Nightshades. So this was changed eventuelly

But what about the OP'ed Blades NS and OP'ed Slash Infils? Wouldn't that hit them the same?

Look, Assassin players can't have their whines both ways. Either they're hit equally with a Str/Con debuff Vs the "OP" Blades and Slash users, or they have the upper hand armor-table wise (or at least equal) Vs Pierce/Thrust users who aren't as affected by a Str/Con debuff, but are still affected by 50%.

The changes also decreased the downsides of going blades as NS/Inf and might be a bigger factor in why it is now a much clearer choice. With old-debuff thrust-NS were stronger than they are now. It isn't unreasonable to believe that blade-shades/infs weren't considered much because before thrust was the superior choice, DESPITE worse resist-tables. Then the debuff got changed, heavily decreasing thrust-efficiency in the stealthwar which lead to an overpopulation of blade-users, shining light onto an imbalance that was either not on peoples radar up till then, or not a huge issue since people didn't abuse it as much.

Is that the only possible scenario? Ofcourse not. Is thinking about multiple scenarios better than your instant whining? Imo, clearly yes. (at least you found the right topic for your whines this time)

If this is the case then why is a WS/Con poison even necessary? It just looks like it was put in to satisfy whiney players like yourself. Seriously, look at how hard you just talked in circles to attempt to justify it, without actually justifying it! ROFL

Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:08 AM by Sepplord

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:04 AM
If this is the case then why is a WS/Con poison even necessary? It just looks like it was put in to satisfy whiney players like yourself. Seriously, look at how hard you just talked in circles to attempt to justify it, without actually justifying it! ROFL

look at how hard you are whining, without adressing anything i said.

The observant reader might have noticed, that i even hinted at the WS/Con poison not being as good of a change as it looks like on the surface. But you don't notice that, since you are compeltely blinded by your own bias and selfrighteousness.

I also doubt you "rolled on the floor laughing", because that would presuppose to get off of your high horse first

Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:11 AM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:08 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:04 AM
If this is the case then why is a WS/Con poison even necessary? It just looks like it was put in to satisfy whiney players like yourself. Seriously, look at how hard you just talked in circles to attempt to justify it, without actually justifying it! ROFL

look at how hard you are whining, without adressing anything i said.

The observant reader might have noticed, that i even hinted at the WS/Con poison not being as good of a change as it looks like on the surface. But you don't notice that, since you are compeltely blinded by your own bias and selfrighteousness.

I also doubt you "rolled on the floor laughing", because that would presuppose to get off of your high horse first

Yet you still resort to an ad hominem attack rather than justify the use of the poison, or admit that it's overpowered. Dude, you've been checkmated on two different threads at the same time.

Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:18 AM by Sepplord

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:11 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:08 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:04 AM
If this is the case then why is a WS/Con poison even necessary? It just looks like it was put in to satisfy whiney players like yourself. Seriously, look at how hard you just talked in circles to attempt to justify it, without actually justifying it! ROFL

look at how hard you are whining, without adressing anything i said.

The observant reader might have noticed, that i even hinted at the WS/Con poison not being as good of a change as it looks like on the surface. But you don't notice that, since you are compeltely blinded by your own bias and selfrighteousness.

I also doubt you "rolled on the floor laughing", because that would presuppose to get off of your high horse first

Yet you still resort to an ad hominem attack rather than justify the use of the poison, or admit that it's overpowered. Dude, you've been checkmated on two different threads at the same time.

If the goal was to see who can make the biggest retard of themselves...then yeah, you "checkmated" me hard. Besides that, i am unsure what your point even is. The old WS-debuff, the OP-one that was here for a few days, the current status? Seriously, with you jumping around from one accusation to the next, it is really hard dismissing all of your bullshit at the same time. You do not answer questions, yet the moment i don'T answer a single one yours i am "tapdancing" and "dodging".

If ad hominem attacks are a problem for you, you might want to remove them from your comment-habits too btw. I don't want to get into a "but you first"-kindergarden discussion, fact is, we both have used ad hominems, that you suddenly feel the need to whine about them is hypocritical at best

Thu 22 Aug 2019 2:41 AM by cere2

Fact of the matter is, assassin's were performing just fine before the buff.
WS debuff increases missrate, evade chance vs all melee toons.
This allows assassin's to have even more reactionary styles with higher growth rates/stun chances etc.
This change is retarded. Period.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 2:50 AM by hawsey813311

pretty rich coming from a ranger lol

Thu 22 Aug 2019 3:11 AM by Kwall0311

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 2:50 AM
pretty rich coming from a ranger lol

An adding ranger with under 130 solo kills at RR 6L4 lol. Must have loads of experience fighting that debuff

Thu 22 Aug 2019 6:42 AM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 2:41 AM
Fact of the matter is, assassin's were performing just fine before the buff.
WS debuff increases missrate, evade chance vs all melee toons.
This allows assassin's to have even more reactionary styles with higher growth rates/stun chances etc.
This change is retarded. Period.

Anything to prove that "fact" ?

I've got another "fact" (since it seems we are calling opinions facts now) for you: your class has on par melee with pure melee stealth classes while keeping considerably high ranged damage. Rangers and Hunters need to be toned down (and scouts buffed a bit). THAT would make sense.
The debuff change is a very small step in that direction

Thu 22 Aug 2019 7:36 AM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 6:42 AM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 2:41 AM
Fact of the matter is, assassin's were performing just fine before the buff.
WS debuff increases missrate, evade chance vs all melee toons.
This allows assassin's to have even more reactionary styles with higher growth rates/stun chances etc.
This change is retarded. Period.

Anything to prove that "fact" ?

I've got another "fact" (since it seems we are calling opinions facts now) for you: your class has on par melee with pure melee stealth classes while keeping considerably high ranged damage. Rangers and Hunters need to be toned down (and scouts buffed a bit). THAT would make sense.
The debuff change is a very small step in that direction

You truly believe this, don't you. Wow. Just wow. So with the WS debuff poisons working as they do, stacking a 3rd (Envenom) dot on top of two proc dots, and diseasing your target so that heal procs and heal pots are less effective, you actually believe that Rangers and Hunters are on par with Assassin melee. I just can't believe that you are actually serious.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 7:48 AM by Sepplord

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 7:36 AM
I just can't believe that you are actually serious.

I thought we had already settled that we think that of each other now. Why do you expect anything to have changed 24hours later?

I could also list a few random abilities and effects that rangers have, would that add anything to the discussion? You just recently claimed that you don't like "giving advice" without having testresults, yet you are here just listing a few ability names without hard testdata trying to skew people perception towards your own feelings.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 8:04 AM by Sindralor

Fighting -properly specced and geared- rangers before the new enervating was torture
try it on a shadowblade, see how fun those armor tables are

Thu 22 Aug 2019 8:38 AM by Lux.Thoras

I am playing a Paladin mostly for solo playing. The WS debuff poison is sometimes hard, sometimes not. It depends as always on the skill of the player.
I think the biggest problem with the poisons I can see is, that you cannot do anything against it.
If I purge it, after the next hit, the poison is there again.

From my point of view as an Melee char, I can live with the WS debuff poison and all other poisons, if there would be some limitations / changes of using poison.

For example if only the “3” weapons equipped can be poisoned. Weapons in the inventory cannot be poisoned. This would bring the possibility to the enemy, that he can choose to purge the poison or purge the stun.
Another solution would be, if I want to switch to a weapon from my Inventory (Bag), I cannot attack for around 5 seconds, because I will need some time to open my bag and get it out.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 9:02 AM by Sindralor

Those are some really great and awesome suggestions from a solo specced Paladin, I will make sure to keep an eye on this thread

Thu 22 Aug 2019 9:07 AM by Taniquetil

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 7:36 AM
You truly believe this, don't you. Wow. Just wow. So with the WS debuff poisons working as they do, stacking a 3rd (Envenom) dot on top of two proc dots, and diseasing your target so that heal procs and heal pots are less effective, you actually believe that Rangers and Hunters are on par with Assassin melee. I just can't believe that you are actually serious.

Hey dude, mostly I appreciate your work, feedback, how you've interacted with the devs to push and promote stealth classes and your feedback on swing speeds etc, found you super helpful whilst I was getting back in to the game. However, here, hugely disagree.

The WS, stats, buffs (MOA affecting buff pots and self buffs) and melee capability rangers have makes them dominant. RR3 Rangers beating rr9/10 SB's (and yes those SB's know how to play) in straight up melee. Easily. No sneak wants to touch Nesretnik, he stands on DC bridge will damn near impunity as no one will go near him.

Also everyone has access to dot procs, so thats irrelevant.

Rangers need a nerf imo, and thats just from watching, hanging out with, and observing.

Lux.Thoras wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 8:38 AM
For example if only the “3” weapons equipped can be poisoned. Weapons in the inventory cannot be poisoned. This would bring the possibility to the enemy, that he can choose to purge the poison or purge the stun.
Another solution would be, if I want to switch to a weapon from my Inventory (Bag), I cannot attack for around 5 seconds, because I will need some time to open my bag and get it out.

Lol, sure, and you only get to try to slam once every 5 seconds because if you miss you dropped your shield? Give sneaks an entire line of abilities and poisons but only let them use 30% of it. Get outta here hahaha.

This level of weapon swapping was always happening for any half decent assassin on live before these swaps were implemented, I had an equally large, if not larger bank of weapons on live because of a mix of heat, cold and matter legendary weapons to optimise damage against different classes too. It just made more accessible along with all the other QOL swaps. Same as tanks being able to immediately flick between 2h and shield between hits to maximise defences, not complaining, it happens, I play around it.

Tani.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 9:31 AM by Lux.Thoras

I think you did not understand what i wrote or you won’t.
Poison on weapons within the inventory is a completely other thing that a Slam that does not hit. If you miss your weapon to hit, you also do not throw it away. This is same behavior. So please stay objective.

As Tank i can wear a 1h Weapon + Shield and a 2 Hand Weapon, same number of items as an assassin can. Those you can see directly also on the character. All other weapons are in the inventory.
My suggestion for switching from inventory to equipment slot is nothing what should have been done to assassins only. It should be same for a Tank if he wants to put his 2h Hammer into his bag and bring out a 2h sword.

With the actual implementation of poison using, everybody with every skill change bring a rain of poison to every target and it cannot be prevented, also not with purge.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 11:03 AM by BashPi

Lux.Thoras wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 8:38 AM
I am playing a Paladin mostly for solo playing. The WS debuff poison is sometimes hard, sometimes not. It depends as always on the skill of the player.
I think the biggest problem with the poisons I can see is, that you cannot do anything against it.
If I purge it, after the next hit, the poison is there again.

From my point of view as an Melee char, I can live with the WS debuff poison and all other poisons, if there would be some limitations / changes of using poison.

For example if only the “3” weapons equipped can be poisoned. Weapons in the inventory cannot be poisoned. This would bring the possibility to the enemy, that he can choose to purge the poison or purge the stun.
Another solution would be, if I want to switch to a weapon from my Inventory (Bag), I cannot attack for around 5 seconds, because I will need some time to open my bag and get it out.

That would grant you the status "god" for all assassins. Even with weapon switching (a lot!), a well played solo pala just kills me.
Full- and offtanks are still the strongest ones in solo play (my opinion..). But thats absolutely okay!

Thu 22 Aug 2019 11:09 AM by BashPi

Lux.Thoras wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 9:31 AM
As Tank i can wear a 1h Weapon + Shield and a 2 Hand Weapon, same number of items as an assassin can. Those you can see directly also on the character. All other weapons are in the inventory.
My suggestion for switching from inventory to equipment slot is nothing what should have been done to assassins only. It should be same for a Tank if he wants to put his 2h Hammer into his bag and bring out a 2h sword.

Additionally: you can switch weapons too (im sure you do that.). A str/con debuff weapon is useless after the proc, so it should be in your interest to be able to switch it

Thu 22 Aug 2019 11:25 AM by Lux.Thoras

BashPi wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 11:03 AM
Lux.Thoras wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 8:38 AM
I am playing a Paladin mostly for solo playing...

That would grant you the status "god" for all assassins. Even with weapon switching (a lot!), a well played solo pala just kills me.
Full- and offtanks are still the strongest ones in solo play (my opinion..). But thats absolutely okay!

BashPi wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 11:09 AM
Additionally: you can switch weapons too (im sure you do that.). A str/con debuff weapon is useless after the proc, so it should be in your interest to be able to switch it

In both points I have to give you right and it is not what i want to achieve. My wish would be to have a possibility to encounter the poisons in some way.
Both of my ideas are only starting points for an discussion and really not a final solution.

Another idea would be, if you want to put poison on more than 3 weapons you have to skill viper. So that wiper is not only making poison better, it allows you to poison more weapons in your inventory.

I think it’s more about discussing a way which will work for most of the people.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 1:37 PM by cere2

These posts have just gone beyond reason.
RR3 rangers beating down rr9-10 SB's. GTFO.
Show some video proof. I mean you all have claimed properly geared/spec rangers are almost impossible since the stealth detection change.
Why do we still see so many NS/SB/INF video's, and no ranger video's beating the piss out of assassin's?
Assassin's were just fine prior to this unnecessary buff, and now its just stupid. The miss rate went way up, evade rate went up, more reactionaries, you name it.

Sepplord I figured you would chime in here and say it was definitely needed. If only you had some more buffs, you might be on par with a melee ranger...

But, your SB will never have the ranged capabilities of a ranger and since rangers have the same melee capabilities

, just continue advocating for more buffs to your class, you probably need them to be competitive.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 1:43 PM by Campjr

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:11 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:08 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Aug 2019 9:04 AM
If this is the case then why is a WS/Con poison even necessary? It just looks like it was put in to satisfy whiney players like yourself. Seriously, look at how hard you just talked in circles to attempt to justify it, without actually justifying it! ROFL

look at how hard you are whining, without adressing anything i said.

The observant reader might have noticed, that i even hinted at the WS/Con poison not being as good of a change as it looks like on the surface. But you don't notice that, since you are compeltely blinded by your own bias and selfrighteousness.

I also doubt you "rolled on the floor laughing", because that would presuppose to get off of your high horse first

Yet you still resort to an ad hominem attack rather than justify the use of the poison, or admit that it's overpowered. Dude, you've been checkmated on two different threads at the same time.

Holy sh*t... there is something clearly wrong with your thought process.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 1:45 PM by Campjr

cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 1:37 PM
These posts have just gone beyond reason.
RR3 rangers beating down rr9-10 SB's. GTFO.
Show some video proof. I mean you all have claimed properly geared/spec rangers are almost impossible since the stealth detection change.
Why do we still see so many NS/SB/INF video's, and no ranger video's beating the piss out of assassin's?
Assassin's were just fine prior to this unnecessary buff, and now its just stupid. The miss rate went way up, evade rate went up, more reactionaries, you name it.

Sepplord I figured you would chime in here and say it was definitely needed. If only you had some more buffs, you might be on par with a melee ranger...

But, your SB will never have the ranged capabilities of a ranger and since rangers have the same melee capabilities , just continue advocating for more buffs to your class, you probably need them to be competitive.

I really hate to go here, but honestly you need to get back to work on your ranger tbh man. I’ve been on every assassin at r7 and yes rangers are the most OP/dominant stealther in the server. Why you are whining makes no sense. You are one of the few that hasn’t figured out how to effectively play the class.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 1:55 PM by cere2

Campjr wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 1:45 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 1:37 PM
These posts have just gone beyond reason.
RR3 rangers beating down rr9-10 SB's. GTFO.
Show some video proof. I mean you all have claimed properly geared/spec rangers are almost impossible since the stealth detection change.
Why do we still see so many NS/SB/INF video's, and no ranger video's beating the piss out of assassin's?
Assassin's were just fine prior to this unnecessary buff, and now its just stupid. The miss rate went way up, evade rate went up, more reactionaries, you name it.

Sepplord I figured you would chime in here and say it was definitely needed. If only you had some more buffs, you might be on par with a melee ranger...

But, your SB will never have the ranged capabilities of a ranger and since rangers have the same melee capabilities , just continue advocating for more buffs to your class, you probably need them to be competitive.

I really hate to go here, but honestly you need to get back to work on your ranger tbh man. I’ve been on every assassin at r7 and yes rangers are the most OP/dominant stealther in the server. Why you are whining makes no sense. You are one of the few that hasn’t figured out how to effectively play the class.

Sure Kork,
Why don't you show me how to do it on a ranger. I mean other than Nesren who is 9L5, what exactly am I doing wrong? Can you make a video too showing me how you destroy RR9-10's on a ranger?
I think we would all like to see that.
Who are your Inf/SB's just so I can have some reference to know how I am the only ranger that hasn't figured out how to play one.
A guy that has 3 assassin's saying the buffs are fine and I need to learn to play ranger. Who would have thought?

Thu 22 Aug 2019 2:30 PM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 1:37 PM
Sepplord I figured you would chime in here

What a huge anticipation, i bet noone besides you saw it coming that i would join in

Regarding the rest of what you said, you are either intentionally misrepresenting my points or completely misunderstood them despite me literally saying ultiple times that Ranger are on par in melee... yet you put the words in my mouth that i want buffs to be on par

The whole point is that ranger should not be on par with assassins in melee because

*drumroll*

cere2 wrote: SB will never have the ranged capabilities of a ranger

So why do you believe being balanced in melee VS an assassin is fine?

Simple logic dictates that for balance classes must lose something in one area to gain something in the other. That's why assassins are weaker than Tanks in melee, because they get stealth. Assassins sacrifice melee power to gain stealth.
So, next step would be adding Ranged abilities, for which the sacrifice that makes sense would be melee-power. But no, in the status quo on phoenix, hunter and rangers don't have to sacrifice anything for that. The contrary, they get better stealthdetection on top. To be fair, assassin can climb walls. So apparently climwalls is euqally useful as 125extra detection range against assassin and the ability to do decent ranged damage.

Aka currently ranger and hunter should be toned down in melee. Simply buffing assassin could break the balance VS tanks, as seen in the fist implementation of the change.

There is so much RNG in daoc that fights can always go either way, so yeah, even with heavily unbalanced matchups you will always be able to produce videos where peoplewin against the odds.

just continue advocating for more buffs to your class, you probably need them to be competitive.

my class? you mean healer? because i have played my assassin just as much as my hunter in the last weeks (hint: not at all)

Thu 22 Aug 2019 9:05 PM by cere2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 2:30 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 1:37 PM
Sepplord I figured you would chime in here

What a huge anticipation, i bet noone besides you saw it coming that i would join in

Regarding the rest of what you said, you are either intentionally misrepresenting my points or completely misunderstood them despite me literally saying ultiple times that Ranger are on par in melee... yet you put the words in my mouth that i want buffs to be on par

The whole point is that ranger should not be on par with assassins in melee because

*drumroll*

cere2 wrote: SB will never have the ranged capabilities of a ranger

So why do you believe being balanced in melee VS an assassin is fine?

Simple logic dictates that for balance classes must lose something in one area to gain something in the other. That's why assassins are weaker than Tanks in melee, because they get stealth. Assassins sacrifice melee power to gain stealth.
So, next step would be adding Ranged abilities, for which the sacrifice that makes sense would be melee-power. But no, in the status quo on phoenix, hunter and rangers don't have to sacrifice anything for that. The contrary, they get better stealthdetection on top. To be fair, assassin can climb walls. So apparently climwalls is euqally useful as 125extra detection range against assassin and the ability to do decent ranged damage.

Aka currently ranger and hunter should be toned down in melee. Simply buffing assassin could break the balance VS tanks, as seen in the fist implementation of the change.

There is so much RNG in daoc that fights can always go either way, so yeah, even with heavily unbalanced matchups you will always be able to produce videos where peoplewin against the odds.

just continue advocating for more buffs to your class, you probably need them to be competitive.

my class? you mean healer? because i have played my assassin just as much as my hunter in the last weeks (hint: not at all)

The thing you seem to not understand when comparing melee of ranger vs melee of assassin is that archer's doesn't get poison's. We get ranged assassin's get poison's.
If archer's are on par with assassin's melee it would only be prior to any debuffing. Str/con, disease, dex/quick, ws etc.
Post debuff we are far inferior, and now with the added WS debuff %, assassin's are even more superior then they were before.

And detection is 250 for assassin to see archer and vise versa. Only difference is assassin vs assassin is 125. So in reality the detection is the same.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 9:36 PM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: The thing you seem to not understand when comparing melee of ranger vs melee of assassin is that archer's doesn't get poison's. We get ranged assassin's get poison's.
If archer's are on par with assassin's melee it would only be prior to any debuffing. Str/con, disease, dex/quick, ws etc.
Post debuff we are far inferior, and now with the added WS debuff %, assassin's are even more superior then they were before.

And detection is 250 for assassin to see archer and vise versa. Only difference is assassin vs assassin is 125. So in reality the detection is the same.

Again someone trying to distract by making false comparisons and acting like i just forgot about assassins having poisons

Selfbuffs would be a better compariuson but looking at individual skilllines is meaningless in DAoC. The complete package counts and that's where rangers are problematic. Their melee package is on par, their detection package is better and they get rangecapabilities on top

Really nice play on words to fool the unobservant reader into thinking you are right, or do you really believe what you wrote about detection?

Archers see archers 250
Archers see Assassins 250

Assassins see archers 250
Assassins see Assassins 125

And your claim is that it is the same in reality?
Archers see assassins twice as far as anyone else in the game, basically having a passive stealthpot effect VS assassins (that stacks with the pot too) is "the same".

W T F dude, but if that's the way you reach your conclusions i am starting to understand why you are so far off as soon as a topic isn't in your personal intrest

Thu 22 Aug 2019 10:26 PM by cere2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 9:36 PM
cere2 wrote: The thing you seem to not understand when comparing melee of ranger vs melee of assassin is that archer's doesn't get poison's. We get ranged assassin's get poison's.
If archer's are on par with assassin's melee it would only be prior to any debuffing. Str/con, disease, dex/quick, ws etc.
Post debuff we are far inferior, and now with the added WS debuff %, assassin's are even more superior then they were before.

And detection is 250 for assassin to see archer and vise versa. Only difference is assassin vs assassin is 125. So in reality the detection is the same.

Again someone trying to distract by making false comparisons and acting like i just forgot about assassins having poisons Selfbuffs would be a better compariuson but looking at individual skilllines is meaningless in DAoC. The complete package counts and that's where rangers are problematic. Their melee package is on par, their detection package is better and they get rangecapabilities on top

Really nice play on words to fool the unobservant reader into thinking you are right, or do you really believe what you wrote about detection?

Archers see archers 250
Archers see Assassins 250

Assassins see archers 250
Assassins see Assassins 125

And your claim is that it is the same in reality?
Archers see assassins twice as far as anyone else in the game, basically having a passive stealthpot effect VS assassins (that stacks with the pot too) is "the same".

W T F dude, but if that's the way you reach your conclusions i am starting to understand why you are so far off as soon as a topic isn't in your personal intrest

"Archers see assassins twice as far as anyone else in the game, basically having a passive stealthpot effect VS assassins (that stacks with the pot too) is "the same".

Got to be kidding me. You contradicted yourself in your own response.

You just put exactly what I said in writing. If assassin's see archers at the same distance archer's see assassin's then how is their detection better?
So it's worse if your an assassin you can't see another assassin at 250? That's the logic of archers have best stealth detection?
Jesus this isn't hard to comprehend. Archers see archers at 250 archers see assassin's at 250 and VISE VERSA.
You are trying to redirect a comparison of poison with self buffs?
With melee capabilities?
Not even worth replying to that nonsense.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 10:52 PM by hawsey813311

tbh cere you are pretty garb on your ranger, everytime i see you up at the keep i pray that you come to dc bridge so i can get those free rps. idk what youre doing wrong but you def have something messed up..... and you always pop me for groups.....

you did it yesterday in front of dc bridge, i thought you used a SL pot or something because you sprinted up out of no where just to side stun me out of stealth so the zerg could get you rps. its ok though, you came back to the bridge 10 minutes later and got fucken reckt lol, i didnt even have to blow purge.

and before you use this as proof that SBs are op send selfcare a tell, hes rr4 and fucks me up more often than not it seems. (im r8 btw)

Fri 23 Aug 2019 12:26 AM by cere2

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 10:52 PM
tbh cere you are pretty garb on your ranger, everytime i see you up at the keep i pray that you come to dc bridge so i can get those free rps. idk what youre doing wrong but you def have something messed up..... and you always pop me for groups.....

you did it yesterday in front of dc bridge, i thought you used a SL pot or something because you sprinted up out of no where just to side stun me out of stealth so the zerg could get you rps. its ok though, you came back to the bridge 10 minutes later and got fucken reckt lol, i didnt even have to blow purge.

and before you use this as proof that SBs are op send selfcare a tell, hes rr4 and fucks me up more often than not it seems. (im r8 btw)

Grats you got a kill dude. Who are you anyhow?
People kill me all the time, I don't camp my timers and go out with purge and IP down, I could care less.
RR8 assassin puffin your chest...cool man.

Way to contribute to the thread though....

Fri 23 Aug 2019 12:28 AM by hawsey813311

lilbusta

it doesnt matter if you have stuff up, youre free rps.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 12:31 AM by cere2

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 12:28 AM
lilbusta

it doesnt matter if you have stuff up, youre free rps.

Except when you donate yours to me, could care less man. Grats on killing a rr6 ranger though, oh and you do need to learn to dance, I land positionals on you at will, but yeah...still lose.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 12:33 AM by hawsey813311

ROFL, didnt realize you were so funny. the only time you get rps from me is when you are adding or popping me for groups.

also the side arc on this server is big af, if you werent able to abuse that side stun id be concerned.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 12:37 AM by hawsey813311

https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Cerebeblades

This is the dude talking about killing ppl lol. 136 solo kills out of 2034 total kills, which is a whopping 6% lol. 450 deathblows out of 2034 total kills, thats 22%. and if youre asking why im listing all of this, its because this is exactly what an adders stats will look like.

actually 600k of your 1.3 mill rps came from realm ticks lol, you just afk in the keep and talk shit on the forums it seems.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:01 AM by Campjr

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 12:37 AM
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Cerebeblades

This is the dude talking about killing ppl lol. 136 solo kills out of 2034 total kills, which is a whopping 6% lol. 450 deathblows out of 2034 total kills, thats 22%. and if youre asking why im listing all of this, its because this is exactly what an adders stats will look like.

actually 600k of your 1.3 mill rps came from realm ticks lol, you just afk in the keep and talk shit on the forums it seems.

Lol i could of told you that. He adds on everything and rarely ventures out from DC where he can get caught out alone. But yet he’s the one with the loudest voice in here about balance around 1v1’s when he avoids them at all costs.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:19 AM by cere2

Aww, bunch of affected kids in this thread. Makes me warm inside.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:20 AM by cere2

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 12:37 AM
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Cerebeblades

This is the dude talking about killing ppl lol. 136 solo kills out of 2034 total kills, which is a whopping 6% lol. 450 deathblows out of 2034 total kills, thats 22%. and if youre asking why im listing all of this, its because this is exactly what an adders stats will look like.

actually 600k of your 1.3 mill rps came from realm ticks lol, you just afk in the keep and talk shit on the forums it seems.

Whats your archer's stats?
Just hope you don't ever get caught losing to me, then you'll really look like an ass.....

Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:25 AM by hawsey813311

lol im not too worried about becoming solo kill #135.

also its pretty funny you are implying that we are "affected kids" in the thread crying about s/c poison being CORRECTED and you cant just stand there like a brick wall and click RAs while spamming anytimes to win a fight vs much higher RR enemies.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:34 AM by cere2

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:25 AM
lol im not too worried about becoming solo kill #135.

also its pretty funny you are implying that we are "affected kids" in the thread crying about s/c poison being CORRECTED and you cant just stand there like a brick wall and click RAs while spamming anytimes to win a fight vs much higher RR enemies.

Lol dude, talk about someone clikcing anytimer with a followup, I positional you any time I feel the need. Get real. And its about WS debuff...not s/c poison LOL
Also, I didn't have kills in OF killin greens coming out of the keep all day.
You talk about some great stats, yet you can't give me your archer stats, and how good you are with them.
Also color the kettle black about adding dude....
Regardless this is all off-topic. you obviously came in here to flex about your assassin's. You think I suck, fine. Doesn't bother me.
But you didn't even know the contents of the thread

Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:44 AM by hawsey813311

i dont have an archer......... if you want my sb stats https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Lilbusta since i guess you dont know hwo to use the herald yourself.
s/c poison is the weaponskill poison here......
you dont get kills in NF either lol half your rps are from realm ticks.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:48 AM by hawsey813311

just found cere and guess what.... sitting right next to critshots to duo ppl. was the perfect opportunity to run it back, shame you cant stop zerging for just a little bit.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 2:03 AM by cere2

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:48 AM
just found cere and guess what.... sitting right next to critshots to duo ppl. was the perfect opportunity to run it back, shame you cant stop zerging for just a little bit.

Lol, you were getting destroyed and he came in and shot you once, and again....I side stun you at will. Then purge vanish....I didn't use purge either heal pots or IP....but chalk it up as another win for you!

Fri 23 Aug 2019 2:08 AM by hawsey813311

he only shot you once..... for 812 total dmg in 2 shots. you two are a joke.

you keep acting like these side stuns are impressive in some way, they arent even hard to land.... and i certainly was not being destroyed, the fight lasted 4 rounds before your critshot adds in, ofc no CDs were used yet.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 2:30 AM by Campjr

cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 2:03 AM
hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:48 AM
just found cere and guess what.... sitting right next to critshots to duo ppl. was the perfect opportunity to run it back, shame you cant stop zerging for just a little bit.

Lol, you were getting destroyed and he came in and shot you once, and again....I side stun you at will. Then purge vanish....I didn't use purge either heal pots or IP....but chalk it up as another win for you!

I think that short yellow bus is waiting outside your house. You’re keeping them waiting...

Fri 23 Aug 2019 4:49 AM by cere2

Campjr wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 2:30 AM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 2:03 AM
hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:48 AM
just found cere and guess what.... sitting right next to critshots to duo ppl. was the perfect opportunity to run it back, shame you cant stop zerging for just a little bit.

Lol, you were getting destroyed and he came in and shot you once, and again....I side stun you at will. Then purge vanish....I didn't use purge either heal pots or IP....but chalk it up as another win for you!

I think that short yellow bus is waiting outside your house. You’re keeping them waiting...

Quit talkin smack and make a ranger show me how its done....or can you just talk the talk...

Fri 23 Aug 2019 4:58 AM by hawsey813311

dont have to make one to tell you how to do it. theres plenty of them doing it right, none of which are you though lol. i told you to ask selfcare whats up, dudes a ripper and only rr4.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 5:18 AM by hawsey813311

lol cere fucken WRECKED!!!!! he used all his cds and i had a rog machine hero on me. bring it back to the drawing board cere cuz you got fucked up.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 5:32 AM by cere2

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 5:18 AM
lol cere fucken WRECKED!!!!! he used all his cds and i had a rog machine hero on me. bring it back to the drawing board cere cuz you got fucked up.

Thanks for the RP's

Fri 23 Aug 2019 5:32 AM by cere2

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 4:58 AM
dont have to make one to tell you how to do it. theres plenty of them doing it right, none of which are you though lol. i told you to ask selfcare whats up, dudes a ripper and only rr4.

All talk no walk. Figured

Fri 23 Aug 2019 5:37 AM by hawsey813311

you know you cant fight me straight up lol. like i said earlier, the only time you get rps from me is with an add or popping me for groups.

[attachment=0]ss6.PNG[/attachment]

also i told you who you need to talk to about fixing your gimp gameplay, i can only lead you to the water, i cant make you drink it. tbh i hope you dont, i love these free rps.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 5:41 AM by cere2

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 5:37 AM
you know you cant fight me straight up lol. like i said earlier, the only time you get rps from me is with an add or popping me for groups.

ss6.PNG

also i told you who you need to talk to about fixing your gimp gameplay, i can only lead you to the water, i cant make you drink it. tbh i hope you dont, i love these free rps.

Dude! you killed a rr6 ranger at rr8! Congrats man, best to ever play the game lol. Glad your so affected, and ill take your rps whenever....as for leading someone to water, learn to dance. Keep poppin those Sl pots...Have fun out there!

Fri 23 Aug 2019 5:41 AM by hawsey813311

if i dance will the adds go away? you so dumb lol

Fri 23 Aug 2019 5:52 AM by cere2

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 5:41 AM
if i dance will the adds go away? you so dumb lol

GF, thanks for the rp's. peace.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 5:53 AM by hawsey813311

shout out to that ment that was came to your aid once you drug me into vision of the ppl sitting at keep. hope you gave him a tip for saving your ass.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 6:25 AM by REVOLTE

get a room you two.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 6:28 AM by Sepplord

Guys, could we get back to topic...you are arguing with someone who claims multiple times that 125 and 250 are basically the same, and doubles down when called out for it.

Cere is completely delusional and not capable of giving in, no matter how hard the evidence is against his current stance. Arguing is a lost cause, simply refute his bullshit when he states wrong facts in a balance discussion and ignore the e-peening

Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:42 PM by Irkeno

hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 4:58 AM
dont have to make one to tell you how to do it. theres plenty of them doing it right, none of which are you though lol. i told you to ask selfcare whats up, dudes a ripper and only rr4.

Thanks, Busta. Always a great fight every time we find each other.

cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 1:37 PM
These posts have just gone beyond reason.
RR3 rangers beating down rr9-10 SB's. GTFO.
Show some video proof. I mean you all have claimed properly geared/spec rangers are almost impossible since the stealth detection change.

Only doing this because you talk a lot of sh*t, RR10 SB vs RR3 Ranger. Straight melee.
No disrespect, Mavella. You're a solid SB.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 2:46 PM by cere2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 6:28 AM
Guys, could we get back to topic...you are arguing with someone who claims multiple times that 125 and 250 are basically the same, and doubles down when called out for it.

Cere is completely delusional and not capable of giving in, no matter how hard the evidence is against his current stance. Arguing is a lost cause, simply refute his bullshit when he states wrong facts in a balance discussion and ignore the e-peening

Your such a tool, who sees at 125? Assassins vs other assassin's. Not hard to understand.
You provide no evidence that says archers have the best stealth detection and claim its double assassin's. It's not worth trying to explain any further. Pretty sure everyone else gets it here except you.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 4:04 PM by Cadebrennus

cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 2:46 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 6:28 AM
Guys, could we get back to topic...you are arguing with someone who claims multiple times that 125 and 250 are basically the same, and doubles down when called out for it.

Cere is completely delusional and not capable of giving in, no matter how hard the evidence is against his current stance. Arguing is a lost cause, simply refute his bullshit when he states wrong facts in a balance discussion and ignore the e-peening

Your such a tool, who sees at 125? Assassins vs other assassin's. Not hard to understand.
You provide no evidence that says archers have the best stealth detection and claim its double assassin's. It's not worth trying to explain any further. Pretty sure everyone else gets it here except you.

This is why I'm not even bothering to reply to his outlandish claims anymore (such as Rangers/Hunters are equal/better than Assassins in melee after they're fully debuffed).

However I hope that anyone not familiar with the classes doesn't come into these threads and believe his claims. Players like him really messed up balance on Live because they couldn't stop whining. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as the saying goes.

Fri 23 Aug 2019 4:05 PM by Mavella

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:42 PM
hawsey813311 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 4:58 AM
dont have to make one to tell you how to do it. theres plenty of them doing it right, none of which are you though lol. i told you to ask selfcare whats up, dudes a ripper and only rr4.

Thanks, Busta. Always a great fight every time we find each other.

cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Aug 2019 1:37 PM
These posts have just gone beyond reason.
RR3 rangers beating down rr9-10 SB's. GTFO.
Show some video proof. I mean you all have claimed properly geared/spec rangers are almost impossible since the stealth detection change.

Only doing this because you talk a lot of sh*t, RR10 SB vs RR3 Ranger. Straight melee.
No disrespect, Mavella. You're a solid SB.

If this is the fight by Blend. I got caught just after using an ablative charge and sprint was on and I forgot to turn it back off which killed my endurance bar in the fight.

This is literally the fight that made me go and craft an endurance heal barrel. I was pissed but more at myself than anything else lmao.

Totally caught with my pants down. Oh well.

ops:

But yes to all doubters I did in fact die to a RR3 Ranger in melee.

Sat 24 Aug 2019 3:15 PM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 2:46 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 6:28 AM
Guys, could we get back to topic...you are arguing with someone who claims multiple times that 125 and 250 are basically the same, and doubles down when called out for it.

Cere is completely delusional and not capable of giving in, no matter how hard the evidence is against his current stance. Arguing is a lost cause, simply refute his bullshit when he states wrong facts in a balance discussion and ignore the e-peening

Your such a tool, who sees at 125? Assassins vs other assassin's. Not hard to understand.
You provide no evidence that says archers have the best stealth detection and claim its double assassin's. It's not worth trying to explain any further. Pretty sure everyone else gets it here except you.

What the fuck? YOU posted the same numbers i did...
You are always defaulting to comparing the detection of assassins and archers against each other, and THAT is the same. I never disputed that.
But archers see assassins twice as far as assassins see assassins.
If the goal is to find an assassin then an archer will be MUCH better than anyone else, since they have twice the detection range against assassins.

If the goial is to detect an archer, then both archers and assassins are equally good, since they have the same detection rate against archers.

How much proof do you need, besides just using the numbers you have already agreed on (and that are widely available and not disputed by anyone)

Cadebrennus wrote: This is why I'm not even bothering to reply to his outlandish claims anymore (such as Rangers/Hunters are equal/better than Assassins in melee after they're fully debuffed).

Which claim is outlandish?
250 > 125 is an otulandish claim?

Archer are detected at: 250range assassins / 250range archers

Assassins are detected at: 125range Assassins / 250range archers

IT really doesn't get easier than that, and both of you are surely capable of understanding and agreeing on that, if you would just stop digging in your heels and shoving fingers in your ears screaming lalalalala like a pre-schooler.
Seriously, if i already have to lay something out to you like that, and you still don't understand, something as basic as 250 being twice as big as 125, then you don't anything meanignful to add to any discussion taking place on these forums

Sat 24 Aug 2019 3:26 PM by gotwqqd

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Aug 2019 3:15 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 2:46 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 6:28 AM
Guys, could we get back to topic...you are arguing with someone who claims multiple times that 125 and 250 are basically the same, and doubles down when called out for it.

Cere is completely delusional and not capable of giving in, no matter how hard the evidence is against his current stance. Arguing is a lost cause, simply refute his bullshit when he states wrong facts in a balance discussion and ignore the e-peening

Your such a tool, who sees at 125? Assassins vs other assassin's. Not hard to understand.
You provide no evidence that says archers have the best stealth detection and claim its double assassin's. It's not worth trying to explain any further. Pretty sure everyone else gets it here except you.

What the fuck? YOU posted the same numbers i did...
You are always defaulting to comparing the detection of assassins and archers against each other, and THAT is the same. I never disputed that.
But archers see assassins twice as far as assassins see assassins.
If the goal is to find an assassin then an archer will be MUCH better than anyone else, since they have twice the detection range against assassins.

If the goial is to detect an archer, then both archers and assassins are equally good, since they have the same detection rate against archers.

How much proof do you need, besides just using the numbers you have already agreed on (and that are widely available and not disputed by anyone)

Cadebrennus wrote: This is why I'm not even bothering to reply to his outlandish claims anymore (such as Rangers/Hunters are equal/better than Assassins in melee after they're fully debuffed).

Which claim is outlandish?
250 > 125 is an otulandish claim?

Archer are detected at: 250range assassins / 250range archers

Assassins are detected at: 125range Assassins / 250range archers

IT really doesn't get easier than that, and both of you are surely capable of understanding and agreeing on that, if you would just stop digging in your heels and shoving fingers in your ears screaming lalalalala like a pre-schooler.
Seriously, if i already have to lay something out to you like that, and you still don't understand, something as basic as 250 being twice as big as 125, then you don't anything meanignful to add to any discussion taking place on these forums

Agree with this POV about best detection.
Though I can understand how someone may feel it’s the comparison of the two that determines best/better.

Sat 24 Aug 2019 5:33 PM by jelzinga_EU

cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:34 AM
I positional you any time I feel the need.

I notice I get positional'ed all the time too on my SB, but rather than thinking it is a skill in the enemy I'm pretty sure it is because something is messed up on Phoenix when it comes to side-arc. I know the side-arc is huge on live too, but look at this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKzIIeaRYTw#t=18m24s

I approach him head-on and he side-stuns me.. Somehow I think the positionals should be changed a tiny bit that "inside" the avatar of your enemy you shouldn't be allowed to use side-positionals.

In the videoclip above I do not expose my side to him, but I get side-stunned. That is not skill, that is a buggy thing only happening here on Phoenix to such extremes.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 12:01 AM by cere2

Sepplord said:

"Archers see assassins twice as far as anyone else in the game, basically having a passive stealthpot effect VS assassins (that stacks with the pot too) is "the same".

This is such a dumb thing to say. Do assassin's also have a passive stealthpot vs archers since they see them at the same distance?

This stuff is hilarious to be quite honest. You still riding that horse that archers have the "best" stealth detection. It cracks me up.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 3:14 AM by Campjr

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Aug 2019 5:33 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:34 AM
I positional you any time I feel the need.

I notice I get positional'ed all the time too on my SB, but rather than thinking it is a skill in the enemy I'm pretty sure it is because something is messed up on Phoenix when it comes to side-arc. I know the side-arc is huge on live too, but look at this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKzIIeaRYTw#t=18m24s

I approach him head-on and he side-stuns me.. Somehow I think the positionals should be changed a tiny bit that "inside" the avatar of your enemy you shouldn't be allowed to use side-positionals.

In the videoclip above I do not expose my side to him, but I get side-stunned. That is not skill, that is a buggy thing only happening here on Phoenix to such extremes.

That is your entire video? We’re you trying to show a particular clip?

Sun 25 Aug 2019 3:23 AM by Mavella

Campjr wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Aug 2019 3:14 AM
That is your entire video? We’re you trying to show a particular clip?

It should jump up 18min 24sec. He stealths up to a ranger and first attack he gets stunned and the ranger is still in front of him. I experienced the same shit on Uthgard 1 back in the day side styles are comically easy to cheese especially when your opponent is /stuck.

Probably a combination of latency related issues and extremely generous side arcs. Being able to land an Ice storm is definitely nothing to brag about as one has been doing in this thread.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 8:42 AM by Saroi

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Aug 2019 5:33 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:34 AM
I positional you any time I feel the need.

I notice I get positional'ed all the time too on my SB, but rather than thinking it is a skill in the enemy I'm pretty sure it is because something is messed up on Phoenix when it comes to side-arc. I know the side-arc is huge on live too, but look at this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKzIIeaRYTw#t=18m24s

I approach him head-on and he side-stuns me.. Somehow I think the positionals should be changed a tiny bit that "inside" the avatar of your enemy you shouldn't be allowed to use side-positionals.

In the videoclip above I do not expose my side to him, but I get side-stunned. That is not skill, that is a buggy thing only happening here on Phoenix to such extremes.

I watched the video. You actually attacked him and he evaded. It was not the Sidestun it was the evade stun. Your combat log isn't scrolled down to be up to date. You can see at 18:34 that you try to use Backstab 2, he evades and then damages you and stuns.

You can also see on his attack move that just the Mainhand is moving which is the animation for weaponline. Sidestun would be both weapons.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 10:57 AM by Turano

Saroi wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Aug 2019 8:42 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Aug 2019 5:33 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Aug 2019 1:34 AM
I positional you any time I feel the need.

I notice I get positional'ed all the time too on my SB, but rather than thinking it is a skill in the enemy I'm pretty sure it is because something is messed up on Phoenix when it comes to side-arc. I know the side-arc is huge on live too, but look at this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKzIIeaRYTw#t=18m24s

I approach him head-on and he side-stuns me.. Somehow I think the positionals should be changed a tiny bit that "inside" the avatar of your enemy you shouldn't be allowed to use side-positionals.

In the videoclip above I do not expose my side to him, but I get side-stunned. That is not skill, that is a buggy thing only happening here on Phoenix to such extremes.

I watched the video. You actually attacked him and he evaded. It was not the Sidestun it was the evade stun. Your combat log isn't scrolled down to be up to date. You can see at 18:34 that you try to use Backstab 2, he evades and then damages you and stuns.

You can also see on his attack move that just the Mainhand is moving which is the animation for weaponline. Sidestun would be both weapons.

exactly this

Sun 25 Aug 2019 2:26 PM by cere2

Mavella wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Aug 2019 3:23 AM
Campjr wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Aug 2019 3:14 AM
That is your entire video? We’re you trying to show a particular clip?

It should jump up 18min 24sec. He stealths up to a ranger and first attack he gets stunned and the ranger is still in front of him. I experienced the same shit on Uthgard 1 back in the day side styles are comically easy to cheese especially when your opponent is /stuck.

Probably a combination of latency related issues and extremely generous side arcs. Being able to land an Ice storm is definitely nothing to brag about as one has been doing in this thread.

It is comically easy to land side style and rear style when your opponent is stuck. And I am saying that 90% of the pop here hits /stick right away.
You know when you just /stick and hit 3/1../switch main 1...3/2../switch offhand 1...3/1./switch main 2...3/2....oh damn landed my evade reactionary..about to hit that #4!
That's some serious skills there too boyz.
What saddens me is the game really doesn't matter how much skill you have on phoenix, it's not like there's this huge choice of what your going to put in your template, what /uses you have available in such template etc. Everyone has access to pretty much the same shit. The big decision? Do I use DA or Legion...Ablative/Haste....skill used to be and pretty much still is a major factor in Live. A RR12 can actually lose to a RR3 that knows how to land position's and can perhaps kite etc.. here on phoenix it boils down really to much RR you have.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 2:38 PM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Aug 2019 12:01 AM
Sepplord said:

"Archers see assassins twice as far as anyone else in the game, basically having a passive stealthpot effect VS assassins (that stacks with the pot too) is "the same".

This is such a dumb thing to say. Do assassin's also have a passive stealthpot vs archers since they see them at the same distance?

This stuff is hilarious to be quite honest. You still riding that horse that archers have the "best" stealth detection. It cracks me up.

I am riding the horse since it's the logical winner.....you are still trying to deflect it with cade-pet support depsite it being a fact that archers are the best stealthdetectors.

If you want to detect an assassin, then an archer will do that job better than an assassin will. Because they have better stealth detection VS assassins.
If you can name me a scenario where an assassin would do a better job than an archer of finding a stealthed target, then please mentioned it, because otherwise archers are the best stealthdetectors.
You can't though, because in every other stealth-detection scenario assassin are only to archers.

You are just arguing against out of principle, unable to change your mind even when presented with overwhelming evidence (funnily you even provided the numbers yourself, and then two comments later wanted proof ^^)
Imho we have reached a point long ago where you should stop doubling down and admit, that in this case you just aren't right. Maybe you misunderstood something at start but it really is impossible that you still haven't thought it through.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 6:39 PM by cere2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Aug 2019 2:38 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Aug 2019 12:01 AM
Sepplord said:

"Archers see assassins twice as far as anyone else in the game, basically having a passive stealthpot effect VS assassins (that stacks with the pot too) is "the same".

This is such a dumb thing to say. Do assassin's also have a passive stealthpot vs archers since they see them at the same distance?

This stuff is hilarious to be quite honest. You still riding that horse that archers have the "best" stealth detection. It cracks me up.

I am riding the horse since it's the logical winner.....you are still trying to deflect it with cade-pet support depsite it being a fact that archers are the best stealthdetectors.

If you want to detect an assassin, then an archer will do that job better than an assassin will. Because they have better stealth detection VS assassins.
If you can name me a scenario where an assassin would do a better job than an archer of finding a stealthed target, then please mentioned it, because otherwise archers are the best stealthdetectors.
You can't though, because in every other stealth-detection scenario assassin are only to archers.

You are just arguing against out of principle, unable to change your mind even when presented with overwhelming evidence (funnily you even provided the numbers yourself, and then two comments later wanted proof ^^)
Imho we have reached a point long ago where you should stop doubling down and admit, that in this case you just aren't right. Maybe you misunderstood something at start but it really is impossible that you still haven't thought it through.

This is such a dumb thing to say. Do assassin's also have a passive stealthpot vs archers since they see them at the same distance?

There, same response to your long drawn out response that says nothing about my reply.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 8:16 PM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Aug 2019 6:39 PM
This is such a dumb thing to say. Do assassin's also have a passive stealthpot vs archers since they see them at the same distance?

There, same response to your long drawn out response that says nothing about my reply.

As you suddenly seem to like short answers:
I am still waiting for the example where assassins are a better stealthdetector than archers.
You chose to focus on the topic, so why are you keeping your special info a secret?

Wed 28 Aug 2019 8:55 PM by leb

just a question, weapon skill debuff is already gone ? this evenning i had a debuff s/c 118
so str and const effectively down. but my WS was still the same ??