They need to get fixed, changed or whatever. Big radius, good damage and you get rupted - this should be enough. It should really affect only the same level where the ground target lies and not several level above and under it. Its a game breaker in towers and way to strong.
Twf
Started 14 Jul 2019
by
Connavar
in
Suggestions
Sun 14 Jul 2019 5:19 PM
by
Svekt
It only has an effect up to 250 units above and below it, sounds more like you had multiple twf on multiple levels. You should bedazzling aura or soldiers barricade when it happens to mitigate the damage, i usually also immediately hit a heal pot when in one as well. Definitely survivable tho.
Sun 14 Jul 2019 9:20 PM
by
keen
Still a ridiculous Ra. All DMG Ra's got tuned to the setting, but twf.i don't know who can see the logic here.
Imo twf should be banned from keep fights like they did with shrooms and no place areas. Much too decisive in keep fights and makes them boring for all but twf classes.
Keep fights would be much better without twf.
Imo twf should be banned from keep fights like they did with shrooms and no place areas. Much too decisive in keep fights and makes them boring for all but twf classes.
Keep fights would be much better without twf.
Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:41 AM
by
Lollie
Towers are pretty much un defendable at the moment, namely due to twf.
Mon 15 Jul 2019 11:39 AM
by
relvinian
I play a twf class now.
Before it gets DEADLY, it needs to be lvl 5 and you have to spend 30 points.
That is a lot of points.
Near as i can tell it is one level up and two levels down on TWF. So if you throw it on the lord in a tower it gets pretty much the whole thing. Or a big chunk of it.
Throw in the snare and so forth and its pretty nasty.
That being said, every realm gets the ability.
If you don't want to die to a lone twfer, change your tactics a little bit and it won't happen much.
It has been nerfed somewhat already by reducing range up and down and also you can't use it through walls, u have to see the target.
I wouldn't be against any reasonable change if it is needed, but i sure hope they don't nerf it to oblivion.
Before it gets DEADLY, it needs to be lvl 5 and you have to spend 30 points.
That is a lot of points.
Near as i can tell it is one level up and two levels down on TWF. So if you throw it on the lord in a tower it gets pretty much the whole thing. Or a big chunk of it.
Throw in the snare and so forth and its pretty nasty.
That being said, every realm gets the ability.
If you don't want to die to a lone twfer, change your tactics a little bit and it won't happen much.
It has been nerfed somewhat already by reducing range up and down and also you can't use it through walls, u have to see the target.
I wouldn't be against any reasonable change if it is needed, but i sure hope they don't nerf it to oblivion.
Mon 15 Jul 2019 3:46 PM
by
keen
Fine for you if you play a twf class now that is the most powerful in keep fights just because of one Ra.
One Ra is more important than 20 other players in fights, especially in tower fights where it is deciding everything.
I don't thing an Ra like that should exist and be that influential making others irrelevant.
I would like to see no twf areas around lords so keep and tower fights are actual keep and tower fights and not who places the highest and best twf.
One Ra is more important than 20 other players in fights, especially in tower fights where it is deciding everything.
I don't thing an Ra like that should exist and be that influential making others irrelevant.
I would like to see no twf areas around lords so keep and tower fights are actual keep and tower fights and not who places the highest and best twf.
Mon 15 Jul 2019 4:00 PM
by
Vkejai
I said it before , this RA is easily survival unless you get stunned or not at full health already. NM is just as deadly if your stunned. Zerg tactics taking towers enable kills due to players not paying attention and mindlessly charging keep lord.
I hope this isn't needed as without RAs like this attacking / defending keeps and towers will be super boring.
If I die to one it's because I am stunned , low health already , afk or messed up some way.
I hope this isn't needed as without RAs like this attacking / defending keeps and towers will be super boring.
If I die to one it's because I am stunned , low health already , afk or messed up some way.
Mon 15 Jul 2019 4:10 PM
by
Gweinyth
Vkejai wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 4:00 PMI said it before , this RA is easily survival unless you get stunned or not at full health already. NM is just as deadly if your stunned. Zerg tactics taking towers enable kills due to players not paying attention and mindlessly charging keep lord.
I hope this isn't needed as without RAs like this attacking / defending keeps and towers will be super boring.
If I die to one it's because I am stunned , low health already , afk or messed up some way.
I agree. I hate getting hit with it but in keep / tower attacks there are ways to avoid it. Don't have everyone rush the lord and you won't have a whole bg wiped out. If it is in front of the door SOS in if you are going to defend. This is not an RA that will allow those who have it to totally dominate the playing field unless you let it.
Mon 15 Jul 2019 4:21 PM
by
Druth
Gweinyth wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 4:10 PMVkejai wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 4:00 PMI said it before , this RA is easily survival unless you get stunned or not at full health already. NM is just as deadly if your stunned. Zerg tactics taking towers enable kills due to players not paying attention and mindlessly charging keep lord.
I hope this isn't needed as without RAs like this attacking / defending keeps and towers will be super boring.
If I die to one it's because I am stunned , low health already , afk or messed up some way.
I agree. I hate getting hit with it but in keep / tower attacks there are ways to avoid it. Don't have everyone rush the lord and you won't have a whole bg wiped out. If it is in front of the door SOS in if you are going to defend. This is not an RA that will allow those who have it to totally dominate the playing field unless you let it.
What is the tactic if you are defending a tower, and opponent has twf?
If you drop it in lord room, it affects the whole tower.
Mon 15 Jul 2019 5:53 PM
by
relvinian
keen wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 3:46 PMFine for you if you play a twf class now that is the most powerful in keep fights just because of one Ra.
One Ra is more important than 20 other players in fights, especially in tower fights where it is deciding everything.
I don't thing an Ra like that should exist and be that influential making others irrelevant.
I would like to see no twf areas around lords so keep and tower fights are actual keep and tower fights and not who places the highest and best twf.
I don't like pa chain because it doesn't feel fair. I would like it if they would get rid of pa chain.
I don't like slam. I think we should get rid of slam.
I don't like bd pets. I think we should get rid of bd pets.
I don't like minstrel charm.
etc etc etc.
No twf areas around lords and keeps and towers? You want training wheels with that and a binky?
Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:10 PM
by
ExcretusMaximus
Druth wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 4:21 PMWhat is the tactic if you are defending a tower, and opponent has twf?
If you drop it in lord room, it affects the whole tower.
Walk away for thirty seconds.
Bam, you survived and they no longer have access to the "broken" ability.
If they drop it in the lord room, the roof and one floor below are being hit; stand in the bottom and kill anyone who comes down. If they drop it below the lord room, run outside or to the roof, depending on where you are when it's dropped. It is an easily avoidable RA with a very defined border and you're acting as if it's the classic one where you had no idea where it was and could accidentally be running further into it instead of away from it.
It's not broken unless it's being used against stupid people, and we shouldn't be catering to the stupid.
Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:22 PM
by
keen
I dont see any reasoning in your post?relvinian wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 5:53 PMkeen wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 3:46 PMFine for you if you play a twf class now that is the most powerful in keep fights just because of one Ra.
One Ra is more important than 20 other players in fights, especially in tower fights where it is deciding everything.
I don't thing an Ra like that should exist and be that influential making others irrelevant.
I would like to see no twf areas around lords so keep and tower fights are actual keep and tower fights and not who places the highest and best twf.
I don't like pa chain because it doesn't feel fair. I would like it if they would get rid of pa chain.
I don't like slam. I think we should get rid of slam.
I don't like bd pets. I think we should get rid of bd pets.
I don't like minstrel charm.
etc etc etc.
No twf areas around lords and keeps and towers? You want training wheels with that and a binky?
TWF is way to powerfull in keep fights and decides whole fights by itself. this should never be the case with any ability hence making it not usable at lords so everyone can have more fun in keep fights sounds reasonable to me.
Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:54 PM
by
keen
you can not avoid being wiped by twf in a tower. your healers can not go anywhere since twf is hitting everything and on top you get farmed by volley.Vkejai wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 4:00 PMI said it before , this RA is easily survival unless you get stunned or not at full health already. NM is just as deadly if your stunned. Zerg tactics taking towers enable kills due to players not paying attention and mindlessly charging keep lord.
I hope this isn't needed as without RAs like this attacking / defending keeps and towers will be super boring.
If I die to one it's because I am stunned , low health already , afk or messed up some way.
if you are the offensive realm it is an advantage because of twf. what more to say.
Mon 15 Jul 2019 9:22 PM
by
Druth
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:10 PMDruth wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 4:21 PMWhat is the tactic if you are defending a tower, and opponent has twf?
If you drop it in lord room, it affects the whole tower.
Walk away for thirty seconds.
Bam, you survived and they no longer have access to the "broken" ability.
If they drop it in the lord room, the roof and one floor below are being hit; stand in the bottom and kill anyone who comes down. If they drop it below the lord room, run outside or to the roof, depending on where you are when it's dropped. It is an easily avoidable RA with a very defined border and you're acting as if it's the class one where you had no idea where it was and could accidentally be running further into it instead of away from it.
It's not broken unless it's being used against stupid people, and we shouldn't be catering to the stupid.
So the solution as defender is to leave tower? Kinda defeats the purpose of a defence?
Mon 15 Jul 2019 9:28 PM
by
Voso
The current TWF vertical radius on towers has to be addressed. You can't defend a tower anymore... Set TWF in the right location then you can hit targets on 3 levels = broken. If you take into consideration you have TWF on BD which is the most popular class on mid you can see why they're the most powerful realm. Devs don't seem to care about the statistics or balance of RvR. This is a team game. I recall excellent tower defenses/open field fighting/bombing on live back in the day with 1-2fg of highly skilled players vs massive zergs which made DAoC unique and exciting. No class should have 1 skill/ability that can be consider a win button to any attacking/defensive position this ruins the whole aspect of the game. Those who play Reaver/Warden have nothing else to rely on so they'll need a buff to make it more appealing to continue to play these low population classes if changes are made. BD should be fine they're already very versatile and popular.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 12:05 AM
by
Slap
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:10 PMDruth wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 4:21 PMWhat is the tactic if you are defending a tower, and opponent has twf?
If you drop it in lord room, it affects the whole tower.
Walk away for thirty seconds.
Bam, you survived and they no longer have access to the "broken" ability.
If they drop it in the lord room, the roof and one floor below are being hit; stand in the bottom and kill anyone who comes down. If they drop it below the lord room, run outside or to the roof, depending on where you are when it's dropped. It is an easily avoidable RA with a very defined border and you're acting as if it's the classic one where you had no idea where it was and could accidentally be running further into it instead of away from it.
It's not broken unless it's being used against stupid people, and we shouldn't be catering to the stupid.
I'm not sure if you are speaking for invaders or defenders. The main issue is with defending a tower. The diameter of twf takes up the entire diameter of the floor above and two floors down. There is no running or walking out of it. There is also no way to stand on the bottom or walk outside the postern as defenders because you'd have to run through a zerg to get there... So all of the healers and casters defending the tower sit there getting rupted while the attackers push up. Nothing can be done in defense because of this, as all of the attackers healers are on the bottom freecasting while they push the permanently rupted healers and casters up top...
I'm also not sure if you participate in tower defense or attack because it is not avoidable. It happens every time. There is no way to defend a tower and the only way to defend a keep is to get on one of the four raised corners on the roof. The RA is extremely overpowered and makes keep and tower defense nearly impossible when used. The solution is to make it only affect one floor at once, otherwise it will remain an i-win button and make a large part of rvr (defense) utterly broken.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 1:04 AM
by
gotwqqd
Why can’t defenders use it?
Do attacker’s drop it on first floor then run out?
Do attacker’s drop it on first floor then run out?
Tue 16 Jul 2019 1:14 AM
by
relvinian
Please, i just fought a minstrel with an elyl sage. Talk to me about too powerful.
Seriously there are so many powerful things in this game. Damn near unbeatable.
You don't understand the point of my post? Whatever class you play, whatever lame ass duos like skald and bd or bard and champ, whatever it is, that is fine.
you can pa chain casters all day long for free rps and that is fine. Anything is fine but whatever you do not like.
So nerf it?
Send one tank into a tower to check it out or wait 30 seconds. Send stealthers in, if you pa chain someone and stun them, they cannot twf.
Seriously there are so many powerful things in this game. Damn near unbeatable.
You don't understand the point of my post? Whatever class you play, whatever lame ass duos like skald and bd or bard and champ, whatever it is, that is fine.
you can pa chain casters all day long for free rps and that is fine. Anything is fine but whatever you do not like.
So nerf it?
Send one tank into a tower to check it out or wait 30 seconds. Send stealthers in, if you pa chain someone and stun them, they cannot twf.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 2:18 AM
by
Azrael
mh , perhaps it is a difference if something is powerful against one, two or a few but not the whole fucking grps who are inside the tower? Why do you pretend you were never in a deff situation in a tower? Or are you doing what the other guys recommend just going out of the tower xD ?and regarding your stun, I guess he could purge and drop twf afterwards - woop wooprelvinian wrote: Please, i just fought a minstrel with an elyl sage. Talk to me about too powerful.
Seriously there are so many powerful things in this game. Damn near unbeatable.
You don't understand the point of my post? Whatever class you play, whatever lame ass duos like skald and bd or bard and champ, whatever it is, that is fine.
you can pa chain casters all day long for free rps and that is fine. Anything is fine but whatever you do not like.
So nerf it?
Send one tank into a tower to check it out or wait 30 seconds. Send stealthers in, if you pa chain someone and stun them, they cannot twf.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 2:21 AM
by
Tigerforce
Druth wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 9:22 PMExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:10 PMDruth wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 4:21 PMWhat is the tactic if you are defending a tower, and opponent has twf?
If you drop it in lord room, it affects the whole tower.
Walk away for thirty seconds.
Bam, you survived and they no longer have access to the "broken" ability.
If they drop it in the lord room, the roof and one floor below are being hit; stand in the bottom and kill anyone who comes down. If they drop it below the lord room, run outside or to the roof, depending on where you are when it's dropped. It is an easily avoidable RA with a very defined border and you're acting as if it's the class one where you had no idea where it was and could accidentally be running further into it instead of away from it.
It's not broken unless it's being used against stupid people, and we shouldn't be catering to the stupid.
So the solution as defender is to leave tower? Kinda defeats the purpose of a defence?
Sometimes a good def plan is changing to Offense. TWF keeps ppl from camping a twr with pbaoe and aoe CC's. Exact reason why they removed the 2 story buildings and ladders that used to be on bridges. TWF prevents that. If it were any weaker ppl wld just ignore the shit and have tank utilize their RA's like someone previously stated.
Get tanks to spec in their group RA's instead of always grabbing stuff to make themselves stronger for solo's. If they don't know abt it, teach them.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 2:24 AM
by
Tigerforce
Ppl need to stop asking for freaking nerfs. Nerfs ruin a game over time, and tone it down to such a level where its unbearable, and they only start buffing again.
People need to know it is impossible to fully balance a game. There will always be situations where one thing is superior over another. This is why ppl make vids to have bragging rights. Play a difficult class or a underdog toon and take out the meta's.
"Get GOOD"!
People need to know it is impossible to fully balance a game. There will always be situations where one thing is superior over another. This is why ppl make vids to have bragging rights. Play a difficult class or a underdog toon and take out the meta's.
"Get GOOD"!
Tue 16 Jul 2019 2:44 AM
by
gotwqqd
I don’t see powerful ra’s being toned down as a nerf. They shouldn’t define a classTigerforce wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 2:24 AMPpl need to stop asking for freaking nerfs. Nerfs ruin a game over time, and tone it down to such a level where its unbearable, and they only start buffing again.
People need to know it is impossible to fully balance a game. There will always be situations where one thing is superior over another. This is why ppl make vids to have bragging rights. Play a difficult class or a underdog toon and take out the meta's.
"Get GOOD"!
Tue 16 Jul 2019 2:51 AM
by
ExcretusMaximus
Druth wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 9:22 PMSo the solution as defender is to leave tower? Kinda defeats the purpose of a defence?
Healers drop to the ground and heal the people in the tower, or all drop and then come back inside on the bottom floor.
Strategy involves more than just nearest enemy and sticking people.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 3:22 AM
by
relvinian
my warden has 20 regrow and if i sit at bottom of a tower and spam my base group heal i will keep a group alive through a twf.
Assuming they are all temped and 50.
Particularly if they get their asses out of there and drink a heal pot.
Yeah you been rolling people with 8 to 1 or 75 to 40 and you run into a tower with no caution and you get killed.
Try not doing that.
Assuming they are all temped and 50.
Particularly if they get their asses out of there and drink a heal pot.
Yeah you been rolling people with 8 to 1 or 75 to 40 and you run into a tower with no caution and you get killed.
Try not doing that.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 6:15 AM
by
Sepplord
this server also has no destroyable towers which would make camped-in groups really strong without having RAs that serve as area-denial
Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:00 AM
by
Druth
Sepplord wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 6:15 AMthis server also has no destroyable towers which would make camped-in groups really strong without having RAs that serve as area-denial
This is the only viable argument I've seen.
The "get good" is horrible, because why doesn't it apply to the one dropping a TWF and then cashing in rps, even if dead?!? And why doesn't "get good" mean TWF only affecting one level, so actually have to plan where to put it?
That's the problem with "get good" arguments, it always seem to be aimed at everyone but the one having a broken ability.
And then someone compares a single target ability, to this
TWF has the delve that matches a setting with +25% heal, +10% casting time, +300 (or more) hp's, essence res buff, and Egg of Youth, plus many more I forgot.
So obviously it's broken.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:10 AM
by
Ceen
25 % heal and ress buff yes, rest hm noDruth wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:00 AMSepplord wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 6:15 AMthis server also has no destroyable towers which would make camped-in groups really strong without having RAs that serve as area-denial
This is the only viable argument I've seen.
The "get good" is horrible, because why doesn't it apply to the one dropping a TWF and then cashing in rps, even if dead?!? And why doesn't "get good" mean TWF only affecting one level, so actually have to plan where to put it?
That's the problem with "get good" arguments, it always seem to be aimed at everyone but the one having a broken ability.
And then someone compares a single target ability, to this
TWF has the delve that matches a setting with +25% heal, +25% casting time, +500 (or more) hp's, essence res buff, and Egg of Youth, plus many more I forgot.
So obviously it's broken.
It's 10 % cast time and no more HP pool since that's Catacomb Championlevel.
TWF is very strong here and might need a nerf like all the other actives, but it's still better than ending up with tower camping bomb grps or endless zerg fights
Right now if you prepare your inc one zerg can wipe the other zerg quickly, without TWF you will lose that momentum and end up in endless stand offs.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:19 AM
by
Druth
Ceen wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:10 AM25 % heal and ress buff yes, rest hm noDruth wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:00 AMSepplord wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 6:15 AMthis server also has no destroyable towers which would make camped-in groups really strong without having RAs that serve as area-denial
This is the only viable argument I've seen.
The "get good" is horrible, because why doesn't it apply to the one dropping a TWF and then cashing in rps, even if dead?!? And why doesn't "get good" mean TWF only affecting one level, so actually have to plan where to put it?
That's the problem with "get good" arguments, it always seem to be aimed at everyone but the one having a broken ability.
And then someone compares a single target ability, to this
TWF has the delve that matches a setting with +25% heal, +25% casting time, +500 (or more) hp's, essence res buff, and Egg of Youth, plus many more I forgot.
So obviously it's broken.
It's 10 % cast time and no more HP pool since that's Catacomb Championlevel.
TWF is very strong here and might need a nerf like all the other actives, but it's still better than ending up with tower camping bomb grps =)
The casting speed is way off, unless you calculate in higher dex. My mistake
But the RA is copied from Live, meaning all bonuses from all expansions apply.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:21 AM
by
Ceen
TWF values never got adjusted, they are the way they are since TOA, no catacombs ++.Druth wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:19 AMThe casting speed is way off, unless you calculate in higher dex. My mistake
But the RA is copied from Live, meaning all bonuses from all expansions apply.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:34 AM
by
Druth
Ceen wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:21 AMTWF values never got adjusted, they are the way they are since TOA, no catacombs ++.Druth wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:19 AMThe casting speed is way off, unless you calculate in higher dex. My mistake
But the RA is copied from Live, meaning all bonuses from all expansions apply.
Oh well, but with +hp cap, + con cap and +25% buff bonus you land at 3-400 bonus hp anyway.
A warrior would be able to stand in a twf and not need any heals.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:06 AM
by
Slap
The issue isn't with the 250 dmg ticks, it's with the fact that the entire defense is interrupted for 30 seconds. I'd much prefer a 5 minute standoff until someone can push hard enough to drop a twf/nm on a single level instead of mass rupts with defenders falling off the sides and getting murdered in less than a minute every time.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:15 AM
by
Hejjin
Supposedly, It can also be used with line of sight to the groundtarget from someone else in your group, including a dead member that has not released. I say supposedly because I have not tested it, but I have seen that tactic being discussed in BG chat.gotwqqd wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 1:04 AMWhy can’t defenders use it?
Do attacker’s drop it on first floor then run out?
Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:37 AM
by
Hejjin
I healed plenty of groups on my Friar with 16 rejuv using the level 45 base group heal, that was usually enough to keep people alive through TWF's, but as you say, it is caution, or lack of it, that decides on how effective TWF is.relvinian wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 3:22 AMmy warden has 20 regrow and if i sit at bottom of a tower and spam my base group heal i will keep a group alive through a twf.
Assuming they are all temped and 50.
Particularly if they get their asses out of there and drink a heal pot.
Yeah you been rolling people with 8 to 1 or 75 to 40 and you run into a tower with no caution and you get killed.
Try not doing that.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 9:05 AM
by
keen
This ignorance is unbelievable, so you suggest to go to the ground floor as a defender while the enemy zerg is chasing up and they will let you heal there?Hejjin wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:37 AMI healed plenty of groups on my Friar with 16 rejuv using the level 45 base group heal, that was usually enough to keep people alive through TWF's, but as you say, it is caution, or lack of it, that decides on how effective TWF is.relvinian wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 3:22 AMmy warden has 20 regrow and if i sit at bottom of a tower and spam my base group heal i will keep a group alive through a twf.
Assuming they are all temped and 50.
Particularly if they get their asses out of there and drink a heal pot.
Yeah you been rolling people with 8 to 1 or 75 to 40 and you run into a tower with no caution and you get killed.
Try not doing that.
That someone can argue twf is fine in keep fights is just above me. It is so out of line with any other ability, you must see that.
Please remove it from keep fights by ban zones at lord's so we can have standoff fights for keeps and towers and not 20sec rush festivals with defenders being on the much weaker spot. Keeps structures should help the realm, not harm it cause of one realm ability.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 9:26 AM
by
Ceen
Ah yeah thats trueDruth wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:34 AMCeen wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:21 AMTWF values never got adjusted, they are the way they are since TOA, no catacombs ++.Druth wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:19 AMThe casting speed is way off, unless you calculate in higher dex. My mistake
But the RA is copied from Live, meaning all bonuses from all expansions apply.
Oh well, but with +hp cap, + con cap and +25% buff bonus you land at 3-400 bonus hp anyway.
A warrior would be able to stand in a twf and not need any heals.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 9:31 AM
by
Wooshh
Lol are you all solo players? Get some healer. You want to take a keep and not getting hit or not getting interrupted. Ras like twf give the opportunity to a small zerg to beat a big zerg, if coordinated and with inc inside the tower, remove them and will be just a war of numbers. And every realm got this ra (not like mushrooms)
Tue 16 Jul 2019 9:35 AM
by
Hejjin
I lived through several late arriving TWF's on my solo friar last night during keep takes by moving to a corner of the keep out of the radius of the TWF. I survived plenty of TWF's in OF which were a lot narrower when there was not the line of sight restrictions on the TWF groundtarget.keen wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 9:05 AMThis ignorance is unbelievable, so you suggest to go to the ground floor as a defender while the enemy zerg is chasing up and they will let you heal there?Hejjin wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:37 AMI healed plenty of groups on my Friar with 16 rejuv using the level 45 base group heal, that was usually enough to keep people alive through TWF's, but as you say, it is caution, or lack of it, that decides on how effective TWF is.relvinian wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 3:22 AMmy warden has 20 regrow and if i sit at bottom of a tower and spam my base group heal i will keep a group alive through a twf.
Assuming they are all temped and 50.
Particularly if they get their asses out of there and drink a heal pot.
Yeah you been rolling people with 8 to 1 or 75 to 40 and you run into a tower with no caution and you get killed.
Try not doing that.
That someone can argue twf is fine in keep fights is just above me. It is so out of line with any other ability, you must see that.
Please remove it from keep fights by ban zones at lord's so we can have standoff fights for keeps and towers and not 20sec rush festivals with defenders being on the much weaker spot. Keeps structures should help the realm, not harm it cause of one realm ability.
Where does the nerfing end? Once TWF is nerfed, and no doubt it will be a knee-jerk over-reaction like the animist nerf, what will be the next topic for mass complaints trying to get an ability rendered (mostly) useless? Phoenix Beta supposedly ended in 2018...
Tue 16 Jul 2019 9:39 AM
by
Lollie
It doesn't need banning, just the hitting above and below needs to be removed imo.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 10:06 AM
by
Sepplord
Wooshh wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 9:31 AMLol are you all solo players? Get some healer. You want to take a keep and not getting hit or not getting interrupted. Ras like twf give the opportunity to a small zerg to beat a big zerg, if coordinated and with inc inside the tower, remove them and will be just a war of numbers. And every realm got this ra (not like mushrooms)
i believe people are upset because healers are interrupted and can't heal...still i think there is a point. There are plenty of counter-RAs that work to mitigate/nullify TWF.
And without structures being raised, there must be area-denials otherwise it would turn into a simple numbers game everytime
Tue 16 Jul 2019 10:31 AM
by
keen
There is no counter to twf in towers, have you been part of tower raids recently? It's the attacker drops a twf they rush up clear everything cause of twf DMG+rupting everyone while the attackers heal freely outside. It's easier to raid than to defend with twf, this is complet against game design and hence should not be possible.Sepplord wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 10:06 AMWooshh wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 9:31 AMLol are you all solo players? Get some healer. You want to take a keep and not getting hit or not getting interrupted. Ras like twf give the opportunity to a small zerg to beat a big zerg, if coordinated and with inc inside the tower, remove them and will be just a war of numbers. And every realm got this ra (not like mushrooms)
i believe people are upset because healers are interrupted and can't heal...still i think there is a point. There are plenty of counter-RAs that work to mitigate/nullify TWF.
And without structures being raised, there must be area-denials otherwise it would turn into a simple numbers game everytime
Tue 16 Jul 2019 11:29 AM
by
relvinian
It doesn't need nerfing, just the above and below part removed. That wouldn't be a nerf. We could change the name of twf from thorn weave field to basket of flowers.
At most, it should be one up and one down, as a nerf.
But i actually feel that the server has had enough nerfs.
At most, it should be one up and one down, as a nerf.
But i actually feel that the server has had enough nerfs.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 11:44 AM
by
Kaziera
relvinian wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 11:29 AMIt doesn't need nerfing, just the above and below part removed. That wouldn't be a nerf. We could change the name of twf from thorn weave field to basket of flowers.
At most, it should be one up and one down, as a nerf.
But i actually feel that the server has had enough nerfs.
Pls dont fix any more bad things! You fixed so many bad things allready!
Tue 16 Jul 2019 2:18 PM
by
Boric
I like the Alb group last night that was running 4 Reavers, it was hard to keep count.
Triple/Quad TWF in an open field was fun = we won multiple of these fights.
Then we watched them destroy 50+ attackers as they TWF an entire tower and surrounding (watched the poor guys die trying to run down, out , around the tower to no avail.
Watched them again destroy same large group when they were attacking a keep as they ran in and TWF entire courtyard and entrance.
Do we actually believe 4 TWF should be able to pretty much destroy all non RR5, 3 healer groups?
Triple/Quad TWF in an open field was fun = we won multiple of these fights.
Then we watched them destroy 50+ attackers as they TWF an entire tower and surrounding (watched the poor guys die trying to run down, out , around the tower to no avail.
Watched them again destroy same large group when they were attacking a keep as they ran in and TWF entire courtyard and entrance.
Do we actually believe 4 TWF should be able to pretty much destroy all non RR5, 3 healer groups?
Tue 16 Jul 2019 3:20 PM
by
gotwqqd
Hodor!
Tue 16 Jul 2019 3:23 PM
by
Tigerforce
Druth wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:00 AMSepplord wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 6:15 AMthis server also has no destroyable towers which would make camped-in groups really strong without having RAs that serve as area-denial
This is the only viable argument I've seen.
The "get good" is horrible, because why doesn't it apply to the one dropping a TWF and then cashing in rps, even if dead?!? And why doesn't "get good" mean TWF only affecting one level, so actually have to plan where to put it?
That's the problem with "get good" arguments, it always seem to be aimed at everyone but the one having a broken ability.
And then someone compares a single target ability, to this
TWF has the delve that matches a setting with +25% heal, +10% casting time, +300 (or more) hp's, essence res buff, and Egg of Youth, plus many more I forgot.
So obviously it's broken.
The "get good" argument is for those that play an underdog class and win against cheese classes such as a TWF user. Its bragging rights so to say. It's not just a way to troll. More then likely they are playing in a way that made the cheese player fk up or not allow them to just sit there and gain RP's, while other ppl mindlessly run into situations then QQ about how they weren't able to get their RP's by /sticking or playing following the leader /MA for RP's. People are lazy and people love to cry.
Again, there is no perfect balance, there wont be ever, nor has there ever been. There have been Nerfs or buffs that suited one person more then the other, in them thinking its balanced.
From experience constant Nerfs ruin a game. Peoples skills at playing games needs to evolve. Just like /stick or /face. People literally cried abt that 12-15yrs ago in saying they needed to remove that. That's how petty ppl are. Now ppl are used to it and know how to play with it. Same is to be said with TWF. Get use to it, EXPECT IT, KNOW if your in a twr to have a game plan cuz its going to happen. How can you make them waste that shit in the tower? jumo out make them follow then get them in YOUR twf. So many ways around not sitting in lords room waiting for RP's to come and getting mad when u get hit by TWF's.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 3:49 PM
by
Tigerforce
The real issue is that its takes 1 days to get to RR4 at which someone can get TWF5. It's too easy to get rp's here. If it was harder less ppl would be rocking TWF5. Perhaps increase the amount of points needed to spec TWF5 since rp's are so easy to come by. Reserve it for those dedicated rvr'ers to where you need to be around RR7 to spec into TWF5? It will still exist, but one obviously one needs to work for it, rather then roll a fresh 50 and grab one of the best RA's so early in game.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 4:20 PM
by
Pops999
Sounds like every class should have TWF not a certain few.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 4:57 PM
by
Enyore
Just fix the height to 50 or 100 units so that it will only hit 1 floor level and if they drop it in the middle on the stairs it will max one of the floors or none of them.
No need to actually nerf the damage of it. There are plenty of TWF classes in the zergs to simply drop one on each level as they go up and that's fine, it requires some kind of coordination at least.
As it is now its just silly - some dude will run up and drop the magic TWF in the lords room that hits everywhere in the tower except the bottom floor and you will have to jump off the roof to get out of it or use grp instsa if you are running with casters as they will otherwise not survive. It beats the purpose of an actual defense imo as you force the defenders to vacate the tower or die to 1 single spell.
No need to actually nerf the damage of it. There are plenty of TWF classes in the zergs to simply drop one on each level as they go up and that's fine, it requires some kind of coordination at least.
As it is now its just silly - some dude will run up and drop the magic TWF in the lords room that hits everywhere in the tower except the bottom floor and you will have to jump off the roof to get out of it or use grp instsa if you are running with casters as they will otherwise not survive. It beats the purpose of an actual defense imo as you force the defenders to vacate the tower or die to 1 single spell.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 5:17 PM
by
Leandrys
Tigerforce wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 3:23 PMHow can you make them waste that shit in the tower? jumo out make them follow then get them in YOUR twf.
*coughs*. Hard to not troll right there.
Or maybe do not give it to one of the most popular caster class, decency is always a good beginning.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:23 PM
by
Vkejai
Surely if one guy is allowed to run up to you then your not guarding the entrance gate very well are you.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:00 PM
by
Voso
Enyore wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 4:57 PMJust fix the height to 50 or 100 units so that it will only hit 1 floor level and if they drop it in the middle on the stairs it will max one of the floors or none of them.
No need to actually nerf the damage of it. There are plenty of TWF classes in the zergs to simply drop one on each level as they go up and that's fine, it requires some kind of coordination at least.
Agreed. Damage is fine and having it on a overpopulated class such as BD is fine as long as you fix the height issue. This RA shouldn't be able to hit 3 floors of a tower or keep... If you look at every tower fight you have a solo BD camping in there waiting to TWF and get massive rps this requires 0 skill so you'll hear a lot of complaints about adjusting it. I have a warden and have started to use this strategy, but I still agree this needs to be resolved sooner rather than later.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:51 PM
by
relvinian
After you nerf twf you can run up into an enemy keep without sending scouts or using any sort of caution.
Won't that be nice.
Won't that be nice.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:53 PM
by
gotwqqd
So wait...it’s being used defensively also?!!!!Voso wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:00 PMEnyore wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 4:57 PMJust fix the height to 50 or 100 units so that it will only hit 1 floor level and if they drop it in the middle on the stairs it will max one of the floors or none of them.
No need to actually nerf the damage of it. There are plenty of TWF classes in the zergs to simply drop one on each level as they go up and that's fine, it requires some kind of coordination at least.
Agreed. Damage is fine and having it on a overpopulated class such as BD is fine as long as you fix the height issue. This RA shouldn't be able to hit 3 floors of a tower or keep... If you look at every tower fight you have a solo BD camping in there waiting to TWF and get massive rps this requires 0 skill so you'll hear a lot of complaints about adjusting it. I have a warden and have started to use this strategy, but I still agree this needs to be resolved sooner rather than later.
Tue 16 Jul 2019 9:14 PM
by
Aph
Nerfing damage will only affect the Zerg fights. The damage is more or less insignificant 8v8. So from a balancing perspective it looks fine. No realm will benefit afaik and 8v8 won’t cry.
I cant say if it’s a good nerf or not though only been in a tower siege 1 time recently! That fight did have 10 twfs going at the same time actually...
I cant say if it’s a good nerf or not though
only been in a tower siege 1 time recently! That fight did have 10 twfs going at the same time actually...
Tue 16 Jul 2019 9:23 PM
by
keen
The DMG is needed in 8v8 Vs eg theu moc pet spam, so in my opinion No place areas around lords is better. Having better keep fights not touching open field fights where it is just a fine Ra.Aph wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 9:14 PMNerfing damage will only affect the Zerg fights. The damage is more or less insignificant 8v8. So from a balancing perspective it looks fine. No realm will benefit afaik and 8v8 won’t cry.
I cant say if it’s a good nerf or not though
DMG should still be tuned like any other active offensive ra has been except twf to match no toa no catacomb bonuses.
Also adjusting DMG doesn't solve the problem that the defences are still all rupted while the attackers can stay outside and heal freely.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:45 AM
by
Sepplord
Voso wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:00 PMEnyore wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 4:57 PMJust fix the height to 50 or 100 units so that it will only hit 1 floor level and if they drop it in the middle on the stairs it will max one of the floors or none of them.
No need to actually nerf the damage of it. There are plenty of TWF classes in the zergs to simply drop one on each level as they go up and that's fine, it requires some kind of coordination at least.
Agreed. Damage is fine and having it on a overpopulated class such as BD is fine as long as you fix the height issue. This RA shouldn't be able to hit 3 floors of a tower or keep... If you look at every tower fight you have a solo BD camping in there waiting to TWF and get massive rps this requires 0 skill so you'll hear a lot of complaints about adjusting it. I have a warden and have started to use this strategy, but I still agree this needs to be resolved sooner rather than later.
So idiots run into the tower and die in TWF instead of baiting it and rushing afterwards or *gasp* have a healer heal the mediocre damage from safety? And thats why you believe the RA needs change?
And even if it has been discussed for multiple pages how it is bad for defenders, but makes attacking too easy, you still write that comment complaining about solo-BDs wiping zergs while on defense?
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:12 AM
by
Druth
relvinian wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:51 PMAfter you nerf twf you can run up into an enemy keep without sending scouts or using any sort of caution.
Won't that be nice.
Won't it be nice if either of:
- TWF stopped working after caster was dead, so you'd actually have to be careful not dying, and not run in like a headless chicken (which strangely enough is what proponents of the current version seems to think people that die to it do)?
- TWF didn't affect more than the level it was cast on, so you'd actually have to place it carefully, which again would have no effect on open field battles but only balance it according to sieges?
- Damage was adjusted to match no ToA, like Wrath was?
Either be nice.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:21 AM
by
Druth
Sepplord wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:45 AMSo idiots run into the tower and die in TWF instead of baiting it and rushing afterwards or *gasp* have a healer heal the mediocre damage from safety? And thats why you believe the RA needs change?
Idiots can drop it, and not worry about dying.
And that's why I see most of the debate as idiotic, somehow it's the people that die to it that are dumb, and not the people who can cast it without interruption, and have it work flawlessly even if they die.
I see two sides of idiots, but saying it does not make the discussion progress.
No way to destroy towers.
Wardens and reavers being unwanted (mostly) outside sieges.
Are the two arguments I can see warrant a status quo of the RA.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:55 AM
by
Hejjin
For the record I have a Reaver with TWF 5, but I have not actually played him since around the time we changed from OF to NF.Druth wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:21 AMSepplord wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:45 AMSo idiots run into the tower and die in TWF instead of baiting it and rushing afterwards or *gasp* have a healer heal the mediocre damage from safety? And thats why you believe the RA needs change?
Idiots can drop it, and not worry about dying.
And that's why I see most of the debate as idiotic, somehow it's the people that die to it that are dumb, and not the people who can cast it without interruption, and have it work flawlessly even if they die.
I see two sides of idiots, but saying it does not make the discussion progress.
No way to destroy towers.
Wardens and reavers being unwanted (mostly) outside sieges.
Are the two arguments I can see warrant a status quo of the RA.
The Phoenix server launched on January 12th, TWF's were being dropped on a regular basis in tower sieges very early on here, so why now is it such a massive problem about TWF? Are people honestly trying to say that TWF is more of an issue in NF keeps than it was in the OF keeps? If they are, I very much disagree with them. In old frontiers the towers were narrower and there was zero line of sight requirement on TWF until just before we changed to NF. If TWF damage and vertical height would have been addressed very early in the server's history I would have had zero complaints about changing various aspects of it, but now? Any change will seem like a reaction to the complaints on these forums. So what will be the next target to be nerfed due to mass complaints? Where does it stop?
Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:14 AM
by
keen
Sorry but I can't follow your arguing. Just because the hight adjustment came late doesn't mean you can not fix anything more about it.Hejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:55 AMIf TWF damage and vertical height would have been addressed very early in the server's history I would have had zero complaints about changing various aspects of it, but now? Any change will seem like a reaction to the complaints on these forums. So what will be the next target to be nerfed due to mass complaints? Where does it stop?
If they change twf for keep fights now it means they listen to the community and after reading all arguments coming to the decision that the arguments to adjust twf are more reasonable and healthy for the server. I would say this is a good thing.
Next target doesn't matter in this discussion. If there are more problems arising we can have another discussion and they will weight arguments again and come to a conclusion what's best for the server.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:17 AM
by
Druth
Hejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:55 AMFor the record I have a Reaver with TWF 5, but I have not actually played him since around the time we changed from OF to NF.Druth wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:21 AMSepplord wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:45 AMSo idiots run into the tower and die in TWF instead of baiting it and rushing afterwards or *gasp* have a healer heal the mediocre damage from safety? And thats why you believe the RA needs change?
Idiots can drop it, and not worry about dying.
And that's why I see most of the debate as idiotic, somehow it's the people that die to it that are dumb, and not the people who can cast it without interruption, and have it work flawlessly even if they die.
I see two sides of idiots, but saying it does not make the discussion progress.
No way to destroy towers.
Wardens and reavers being unwanted (mostly) outside sieges.
Are the two arguments I can see warrant a status quo of the RA.
The Phoenix server launched on January 12th, TWF's were being dropped on a regular basis in tower sieges very early on here, so why now is it such a massive problem about TWF? Are people honestly trying to say that TWF is more of an issue in NF keeps than it was in the OF keeps? If they are, I very much disagree with them. In old frontiers the towers were narrower and there was zero line of sight requirement on TWF until just before we changed to NF. If TWF damage and vertical height would have been addressed very early in the server's history I would have had zero complaints about changing various aspects of it, but now? Any change will seem like a reaction to the complaints on these forums. So what will be the next target to be nerfed due to mass complaints? Where does it stop?
Well, first of all games like this evolve, and people move towards what works.
This is also why DaoC has had a hard time seeing broken things before after it's been implemented a while.
I don't think TWF was as big a problem in OF, because the keeps were hopeless to defend anyway, but the main thing is that twf (placed correctly) covers a whole tower.
I personally don't think one RA should define a siege success or failure.
It's why it's a good thing oil is easy to remove, and that you can't put catapult close to keeps, or even inside towers etc...
There are so many fixes that has helped make it so sieges are about more than a few abilities (no pbaoe through walls, for example).
I don't think single target abilities like baseline stun is bad, because it's both a "get better" ability thing, but also only hits one target.
Aoe stuff better not be decisive, single target stuff (in 1v1 for example) doesn't matter as much if it's decisive.
And people keep forgetting that TWF came after ToA that introduced so much aoe stuff, and better defences against stuff like TWF.
I'd much prefer to nerf TWF, and improve warden/reaver some other way, BD doesn't need a buff anyway.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 10:28 AM
by
Kaziera
Make twf only interrupt on the first tick like dots.
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 12:33 PM
by
Hejjin
My point is that TWF has been incredibly powerful and well used in keep defences and sieges since not long after the server launched, and yet the developers have mostly avoided changing TWF except for the changes to prevent multiple TWFs from stacking and imposing a line of sight restriction where a member of the TWF casters group has to be in LoS of the groundtarget. That seems to imply that the devs were not overly concerned with TWF. The server has a fraction of the population that it had when TWF classes were dominating keep sieges. Is there some new tactic that has only just been discovered (other than those around LoS to the groundtarget) that is causing new issues? One of the reasons I voted for NF despite having concerns about aspects of it, was how much easier it was to actually defend keeps. Nothing I have seen has altered that opinion. So why change TWF now? What has changed to justify nerfing TWF when it was never felt necessary before?keen wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:14 AMSorry but I can't follow your arguing. Just because the hight adjustment came late doesn't mean you can not fix anything more about it.
I have highlighted the portions of your reply that are most troubling to me, you might not be concerned about the next target but I am., What will be the next bandwagon that will result in a nerf? Static Tempest because it resets stun immunity timers? Champions because the handful of masochists soloing on their Champs are incredibly difficult to defeat by solo melees / hybrids without Divine Intervention from the RNG Gods in the form of resisting one or more of their debuffs or will it be normalising melee stun immunity to that of caster induced because of the clueless people that are unable to differentiate between numb and slam and purge the wrong stun? Where do these bandwagons end?keen wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:14 AMIf they change twf for keep fights now it means they listen to the community and after reading all arguments coming to the decision that the arguments to adjust twf are more reasonable and healthy for the server. I would say this is a good thing.
Next target doesn't matter in this discussion. If there are more problems arising we can have another discussion and they will weight arguments again and come to a conclusion what's best for the server.
My view is that the constant nerfing is hindering and not helping the server.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 12:54 PM
by
Hejjin
True enough, however I have yet to see any new tactics evolve round TWF usage, other than the ones required for LoS to the grountarget, so what has evolved?Druth wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:17 AMWell, first of all games like this evolve, and people move towards what works.
This is also why DaoC has had a hard time seeing broken things before after it's been implemented a while.
That made me smile, in part because of its accuracy, keeps defences were mostly hopeless, but also because I believe that TWF was much more of an issue in OF Keep defences than in NF.Druth wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:17 AMI don't think TWF was as big a problem in OF, because the keeps were hopeless to defend anyway,
I do not believe that is entirely accurate, at least not for a single TWF, I have been in multiple NF keep sieges either as an attacker or defender where I have been able to move to a location that is fractionally outside of TWF. I will have to log my Reaver in and test coverage to see if there is an actual location that covers ALL of the tower, if there is, then i will apologise and concede the point.Druth wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:17 AMbut the main thing is that twf (placed correctly) covers a whole tower.
I agree, but is TWF more of an issue now that it was several months ago? Has there been some new previously unused tactics discovered that makes TWF so much more effective than it used to be? Or is this the result of the population decline in general and those playing healers?Druth wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:17 AMI personally don't think one RA should define a siege success or failure.
Again my question is why now? If the answer is because there is now a forum bandwagon to get it nerfed then I want no part of it, because I just see that as a start of a series of bandwagons to get things nerfed that some vocal players dislike.Druth wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:17 AMIt's why it's a good thing oil is easy to remove, and that you can't put catapult close to keeps, or even inside towers etc...
There are so many fixes that has helped make it so sieges are about more than a few abilities (no pbaoe through walls, for example).
I don't think single target abilities like baseline stun is bad, because it's both a "get better" ability thing, but also only hits one target.
Aoe stuff better not be decisive, single target stuff (in 1v1 for example) doesn't matter as much if it's decisive.
And people keep forgetting that TWF came after ToA that introduced so much aoe stuff, and better defences against stuff like TWF.
I'd much prefer to nerf TWF, and improve warden/reaver some other way, BD doesn't need a buff anyway.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 12:54 PM
by
ExcretusMaximus
20 Mids defended a tower against 50 Albs last night. The albs ran in with stacked TWF and Negative Maelstroms.
What did the Mids do? They stepped onto the ramparts, out of the TWF. Thirty seconds later, we went back into the postern and wiped the Albs.
It's almost as if everything I said earlier in this thread is true, and you can defend against TWF if you actually think instead of stand there crying about it being broken.
Wow!
What did the Mids do? They stepped onto the ramparts, out of the TWF. Thirty seconds later, we went back into the postern and wiped the Albs.
It's almost as if everything I said earlier in this thread is true, and you can defend against TWF if you actually think instead of stand there crying about it being broken.
Wow!
Wed 17 Jul 2019 12:58 PM
by
keen
Then the TWF was miss placed i guess and also no second TWF afterwards. Just because you got lucky once doesnt mean it is not a problem. Tower defenses i have attended usually end up with attackers winning most of the times just by placing a good TWF.ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 12:54 PM20 Mids defended a tower against 50 Albs last night. The albs ran in with stacked TWF and Negative Maelstroms.
What did the Mids do? They stepped onto the ramparts, out of the TWF. Thirty seconds later, we went back into the postern and wiped the Albs.
It's almost as if everything I said earlier in this thread is true, and you can defend against TWF if you actually think instead of stand there crying about it being broken.
Wow!
Wed 17 Jul 2019 1:05 PM
by
ExcretusMaximus
Despite what you think, TWF does not cover the entire circumference of a tower; it's not even close.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 1:15 PM
by
Chill
There is nothing wrong with twf. The Problem are the classes who throws ist. The warden is not a very much played class compared to bd and reaver. I´ts like the animist would have twf then it would be equal. But then it would get nerfed because of ani... so just play on.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 1:25 PM
by
Hejjin
I have just logged in my Reaver, Caer Beno keep is approximately 1010 units by 1160 units. Therefore no single TWF can cover ALL of that keep. I will check out other keeps when I get chance.Hejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 12:54 PMI do not believe that is entirely accurate, at least not for a single TWF, I have been in multiple NF keep sieges either as an attacker or defender where I have been able to move to a location that is fractionally outside of TWF. I will have to log my Reaver in and test coverage to see if there is an actual location that covers ALL of the tower, if there is, then i will apologise and concede the point.Druth wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:17 AMbut the main thing is that twf (placed correctly) covers a whole tower.
Beno watchtower is approx 1350 by 1170 units with the central portion being approx 800 by 775 units
Edit : I also checked Bold and Hurbury keeps, both have same dimensions as Beno, which is what I expected. So it appears it is only the towers where a single TWF can be applied to cover everything, at least when attackers have forced their way in and taken control of the ground floor.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 1:32 PM
by
Lollie
Hejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 1:25 PMI have just logged in my Reaver, Caer Beno keep is approximately 1010 units by 1160 units. Therefore no single TWF can cover ALL of that keep. I will check out other keeps when I get chance.Hejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 12:54 PMI do not believe that is entirely accurate, at least not for a single TWF, I have been in multiple NF keep sieges either as an attacker or defender where I have been able to move to a location that is fractionally outside of TWF. I will have to log my Reaver in and test coverage to see if there is an actual location that covers ALL of the tower, if there is, then i will apologise and concede the point.Druth wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:17 AMbut the main thing is that twf (placed correctly) covers a whole tower.
In fairness Druth says tower not keep
Wed 17 Jul 2019 1:53 PM
by
Hejjin
Reavers are not as popular as Bonedancers.Chill wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 1:15 PMThere is nothing wrong with twf. The Problem are the classes who throws ist. The warden is not a very much played class compared to bd and reaver. I´ts like the animist would have twf then it would be equal. But then it would get nerfed because of ani... so just play on.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 1:56 PM
by
Hejjin
True enough, which is why I went on to measure the towers as well as the keeps ;-). Is everyone ONLY referring to the outer towers, or are people using tower to refer to the tower in the keep where the commanders are located?Lollie wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 1:32 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 1:25 PMI have just logged in my Reaver, Caer Beno keep is approximately 1010 units by 1160 units. Therefore no single TWF can cover ALL of that keep. I will check out other keeps when I get chance.Hejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 12:54 PMI do not believe that is entirely accurate, at least not for a single TWF, I have been in multiple NF keep sieges either as an attacker or defender where I have been able to move to a location that is fractionally outside of TWF. I will have to log my Reaver in and test coverage to see if there is an actual location that covers ALL of the tower, if there is, then i will apologise and concede the point.
In fairness Druth says tower not keep
Wed 17 Jul 2019 1:58 PM
by
Horus
gotwqqd wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 2:44 AMI don’t see powerful ra’s being toned down as a nerf. They shouldn’t define a class
Define a class? More like define the entire BG keep/tower warfare system. Whomever brings the most TWF to siege/defense battle wins, esp with towers. No RA should have that much effect.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:09 PM
by
Druth
Hejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 12:54 PMAgain my question is why now? If the answer is because there is now a forum bandwagon to get it nerfed then I want no part of it, because I just see that as a start of a series of bandwagons to get things nerfed that some vocal players dislike.
I understand your point, and appreciate your extremely polite discussion
But I don't necessarily agree. If something becomes a problem, it should be open both for criticism, debate and analysis.
I think people are using the wrong arguments as to "if" a adjustment should happen. To me they ring to me of "To big to fail" argument.
But I have seen good arguments against a nerf, and bad ones for a nerf, make no mistake.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:22 PM
by
Druth
That we can't destroy towers, and thus TWF means no group can camp towers and not be flushed out.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:30 PM
by
Hejjin
The highlighted portion is the part I have issues with, TWF has been a constant problem since a few weeks after launch, so it has not just become an issue.Druth wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:09 PMI understand your point, and appreciate your extremely polite discussion
But I don't necessarily agree.If something becomes a problem, it should be open both for criticism, debate and analysis.
I think people are using the wrong arguments as to "if" a adjustment should happen. To me they ring to me of "To big to fail" argument.
But I have seen good arguments against a nerf, and bad ones for a nerf, make no mistake.
Oh well, we will just have to agree to disagree ;-). I just don't want this to be the start of a slippery slope that leads to other things being nerfed.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:33 PM
by
Sepplord
Hejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:30 PMThe highlighted portion is the part I have issues with, TWF has been a constant problem since a few weeks after launch, so it has not just become an issue.Druth wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:09 PMI understand your point, and appreciate your extremely polite discussion
But I don't necessarily agree.If something becomes a problem, it should be open both for criticism, debate and analysis.
I think people are using the wrong arguments as to "if" a adjustment should happen. To me they ring to me of "To big to fail" argument.
But I have seen good arguments against a nerf, and bad ones for a nerf, make no mistake.
Oh well, we will just have to agree to disagree ;-). I just don't want this to be the start of a slippery slope that leads to other things being nerfed.
It has also undergone quite a few changes since then too...so why would another change be so unthinkable?
I am against a change currently, as long as towers can't be raised, but i can't follow your logic there. No offense
Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:44 PM
by
Hejjin
Hmm to the best of my knowledge and recollection, it has only received two changes, the first to prevent TWFs stacking, the second was the LoS requirement. I am just dubious about how TWF is more of an issue now than it used to be.Sepplord wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:33 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:30 PMThe highlighted portion is the part I have issues with, TWF has been a constant problem since a few weeks after launch, so it has not just become an issue.Druth wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:09 PMI understand your point, and appreciate your extremely polite discussion
But I don't necessarily agree.If something becomes a problem, it should be open both for criticism, debate and analysis.
I think people are using the wrong arguments as to "if" a adjustment should happen. To me they ring to me of "To big to fail" argument.
But I have seen good arguments against a nerf, and bad ones for a nerf, make no mistake.
Oh well, we will just have to agree to disagree ;-). I just don't want this to be the start of a slippery slope that leads to other things being nerfed.
It has also undergone quite a few changes since then too...so why would another change be so unthinkable?
I am against a change currently, as long as towers can't be raised, but i can't follow your logic there. No offense
Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:56 PM
by
Lollie
Hejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:44 PMHmm to the best of my knowledge and recollection, it has only received two changes, the first to prevent TWFs stacking, the second was the LoS requirement. I am just dubious about how TWF is more of an issue now than it used to be.Sepplord wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:33 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:30 PMThe highlighted portion is the part I have issues with, TWF has been a constant problem since a few weeks after launch, so it has not just become an issue.
Oh well, we will just have to agree to disagree ;-). I just don't want this to be the start of a slippery slope that leads to other things being nerfed.
It has also undergone quite a few changes since then too...so why would another change be so unthinkable?
I am against a change currently, as long as towers can't be raised, but i can't follow your logic there. No offense
Twf Z radius was reduced as well :
2019-3-31 Sunday
Damage Shield variance adjustment (PvP only)
Damage Add variance adjustment
Fixed some typos
Lifedrain health returned over the listed value is now a random variance and no longer linked to spec
XP / Kill Credit range has been doubled
NPCs with an offhand swing chance can now actually swing with the offhand
Static RAs (ST, TWF, Maelstrom) had their Z radius of effect reduced to 256
Animist bomber will die when their target vanishes
Animist bomber will die when their target stealthes outside the detection range
Many instance related fixes and features (still closed)
Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:57 PM
by
Sepplord
Hejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:44 PMHmm to the best of my knowledge and recollection, it has only received two changes, the first to prevent TWFs stacking, the second was the LoS requirement. I am just dubious about how TWF is more of an issue now than it used to be.
it also got it's z-axis range nerfed, originally there was no height check at all...you could drop it on the floor in an OF-keeptower and cover the whole thing up to (and including) the roof. And afaik in the first iterations the height limitation didn't work properly (but maybe that's incorrect, i know i read crypost about TWF covering the whole tower after it already got fixed but that doesn't mean it really happened)
And it could be more of an issue since more people started using it. More people made chars to specifically use that RA because they saw how effective it is, and NF makes getting to a siege much easier. In OF you had to usually travel multiple zones to get there now in NF you can get almost everywhere relatively safe per boat
Wed 17 Jul 2019 3:07 PM
by
Hejjin
Fair enough.Sepplord wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:57 PMit also got it's z-axis range nerfed, originally there was no height check at all...you could drop it on the floor in an OF-keeptower and cover the whole thing up to (and including) the roof. And afaik in the first iterations the height limitation didn't work properly (but maybe that's incorrect, i know i read crypost about TWF covering the whole tower after it already got fixed but that doesn't mean it really happened)
That is true, but that was also the case in OF, there were a lot of TWF bots months before NF arrived.Sepplord wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:57 PMAnd it could be more of an issue since more people started using it. More people made chars to specifically use that RA because they saw how effective it is, and NF makes getting to a siege much easier. In OF you had to usually travel multiple zones to get there now in NF you can get almost everywhere relatively safe per boat
Wed 17 Jul 2019 3:08 PM
by
Hejjin
Cheers for that.Lollie wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:56 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:44 PMHmm to the best of my knowledge and recollection, it has only received two changes, the first to prevent TWFs stacking, the second was the LoS requirement. I am just dubious about how TWF is more of an issue now than it used to be.Sepplord wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 2:33 PMIt has also undergone quite a few changes since then too...so why would another change be so unthinkable?
I am against a change currently, as long as towers can't be raised, but i can't follow your logic there. No offense
Twf Z radius was reduced as well :
2019-3-31 Sunday
Damage Shield variance adjustment (PvP only)
Damage Add variance adjustment
Fixed some typos
Lifedrain health returned over the listed value is now a random variance and no longer linked to spec
XP / Kill Credit range has been doubled
NPCs with an offhand swing chance can now actually swing with the offhand
Static RAs (ST, TWF, Maelstrom) had their Z radius of effect reduced to 256
Animist bomber will die when their target vanishes
Animist bomber will die when their target stealthes outside the detection range
Many instance related fixes and features (still closed)
Wed 17 Jul 2019 4:21 PM
by
Voso
Sepplord wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:45 AMSo idiots run into the tower and die in TWF instead of baiting it and rushing afterwards or *gasp* have a healer heal the mediocre damage from safety? And thats why you believe the RA needs change?
And even if it has been discussed for multiple pages how it is bad for defenders, but makes attacking too easy, you still write that comment complaining about solo-BDs wiping zergs while on defense?
The issue isn't about the idiots in the attacking/defending realm dying to the TWF. Damage / Radius / Interrupt is good. The issue is the height of the RA hitting multiple floors while in a tower/keep. People say that fixing this issue would cause keep/tower stalemates, but this doesn't stop another TWF from being placed on the next floor to keep pushing the opponent up or down at least it would require some coordination and tactics. Also if they were to implement raised towers and the ability to punch holes in the keep walls that would help prevent any stalemates. I don't think I said that a solo BD can wipe a zerg... The solo bd camping every tower is a good example of how powerful this 1 RA is and how popular the class is.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:35 PM
by
Anelyn77
Why not just make it so you can have only ONE TWF affect an area, and no other TWF can be cast in an overlapping circle? Same for Negative Maelstrom and Ichor, so at best you would have 1 ichor with 1 NM and 1 twf which can be healed through.
If you want to wipe zergs, get moc 5, get purge 2, have healbots and try to be a hero in a bomb grp, not press 1 button kill peeps because 10 other press same button and even if you all die, everyone else will die.
This won't affect small / 8m at all, but will prevent class representation across all 3 realms to play a major role in keep fights, ty very much ^^ We want to fight other peeps that's the whole point of it RvR, if you are good (as player / small / 8m) you will make same RPs, if you just zerg surfed with a max twf bot, you won't have same results = balance.
/Bnotashamed + Aicha
If you want to wipe zergs, get moc 5, get purge 2, have healbots and try to be a hero in a bomb grp, not press 1 button kill peeps because 10 other press same button and even if you all die, everyone else will die.
This won't affect small / 8m at all, but will prevent class representation across all 3 realms to play a major role in keep fights, ty very much ^^
We want to fight other peeps that's the whole point of it RvR, if you are good (as player / small / 8m) you will make same RPs, if you just zerg surfed with a max twf bot, you won't have same results = balance./Bnotashamed + Aicha
Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:38 PM
by
Roto23
On the first floor of every tower there is that tiny back rectangular area that is always safe from the usual placed twf. I go there and chill.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 6:04 AM
by
Sepplord
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:35 PMWhy not just make it so you can have only ONE TWF affect an area, and no other TWF can be cast in an overlapping circle? Same for Negative Maelstrom and Ichor, so at best you would have 1 ichor with 1 NM and 1 twf which can be healed through.
If you want to wipe zergs, get moc 5, get purge 2, have healbots and try to be a hero in a bomb grp, not press 1 button kill peeps because 10 other press same button and even if you all die, everyone else will die.
This won't affect small / 8m at all, but will prevent class representation across all 3 realms to play a major role in keep fights, ty very much ^^
/Bnotashamed + Aicha
afaik TWFs don't stack already
Thu 18 Jul 2019 8:48 AM
by
Vindicator
A keep tower counter could be that if a twf is active in a keep it can be countered by an enemy also activating their twf. They would nullify each other. Perhaps keep the snare mechanic on both but cancel the damage element. Could be scaled so a twf 5 overrides a twf1 minus the damage of twf 1 but it would be at least a counter to somebody just running in and dropping twf. Doesn't nerf the ra and somebody else has to drop their twf as well so uses up two of them.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 3:21 AM
by
relvinian
Vindicator wrote: ↑Thu 18 Jul 2019 8:48 AMA keep tower counter could be that if a twf is active in a keep it can be countered by an enemy also activating their twf. They would nullify each other. Perhaps keep the snare mechanic on both but cancel the damage element. Could be scaled so a twf 5 overrides a twf1 minus the damage of twf 1 but it would be at least a counter to somebody just running in and dropping twf. Doesn't nerf the ra and somebody else has to drop their twf as well so uses up two of them.
I like out of the box suggestions but i don't think too much customization is good.
If so, I want a jet pack and a light sabre.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 8:41 AM
by
keen
You play a twf class and don't want it changed to sth reasonable.
It's completely out of line with any other ability in keep fights.
It's completely out of line with any other ability in keep fights.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:40 AM
by
Hejjin
That is not accurate, the following quote was made by Relv on page 5 of this thread :keen wrote: ↑Fri 19 Jul 2019 8:41 AMYou play a twf class and don't want it changed to sth reasonable.
snip...
I have highlighted what I consider to be the operative part of his post. I would certainly call the scope of that change to be reasonable, if you don't, it makes me wonder just how drastic a change you want.relvinian wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 11:29 AMIt doesn't need nerfing, just the above and below part removed. That wouldn't be a nerf. We could change the name of twf from thorn weave field to basket of flowers.
At most, it should be one up and one down, as a nerf.
But i actually feel that the server has had enough nerfs.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:47 AM
by
Sepplord
it's hard to tell though if that is serious or irony...
not only because of the rest of the sentence, but also because removing the up/down axis would clearly be a nerf (and also leads to huge problems on anything but completely flat terrain)
not only because of the rest of the sentence, but also because removing the up/down axis would clearly be a nerf (and also leads to huge problems on anything but completely flat terrain)
Fri 19 Jul 2019 10:04 AM
by
Hejjin
Shrug, I would certainly consider it a nerf ;-), but I also believe he was stating that he was not against the vertical height being changed, but only Relv can confirm that.Sepplord wrote: ↑Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:47 AMit's hard to tell though if that is serious or irony...
not only because of the rest of the sentence, but also because removing the up/down axis would clearly be a nerf (and also leads to huge problems on anything but completely flat terrain)
On my Friar, I have been on enough keep takes / defences to observer that a significant number of players fail to pay attention when they are on the commander, and that usually resulted in me, and the other healers having to resurrect those people after the TWF and then commander fight ended, a significant number of said people never even managed to make it off the floor where the commander spawns before dying to TWF. I believe that if the vertical height was changed so it only covered 2 instead of 3 floors, there would still be lots of corpses of the perpetually unwary.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:27 PM
by
Hawkaye
Playing a healer in tower defense I can tell you if they place twf centered in the lord room there is absolutely no place to go on the top 3 floors where it wont hit you . the only places you can go are out onto the oil level which is usually camped by climbers just waiting for that, or jump off tower into the attacking BG and die instantly.
Fixes Id like to see: Make twf obey LoS no LoS to the point it was cast it should not hit. The actual caster must be in LoS to cast it no more necro shade cheese running up into the defenders to assist on casting it and no getting assist from dead people.
Fixes Id like to see: Make twf obey LoS no LoS to the point it was cast it should not hit. The actual caster must be in LoS to cast it no more necro shade cheese running up into the defenders to assist on casting it and no getting assist from dead people.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:48 PM
by
keen
Alb BG Had 10 Reavers today. Also adjustments in z axis would be completely useless since multiple twfs were dropped on every level.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 11:08 PM
by
relvinian
Today on a pug with a lvl 38 in it and a 45 i was the only one healing with 20 regrowth.
Nobody died to twf when they ran into it.
At the bottom spamming group heal my 20 regrow kept them alive.
Nobody died to twf when they ran into it.
At the bottom spamming group heal my 20 regrow kept them alive.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 11:16 PM
by
keen
Whom do you want to impress with this out of context msg? For sure you have not been fighting any larger numbers, maybe a solo dropping twf and you could jump out.relvinian wrote: ↑Sat 20 Jul 2019 11:08 PMToday on a pug with a lvl 38 in it and a 45 i was the only one healing with 20 regrowth.
Nobody died to twf when they ran into it.
At the bottom spamming group heal my 20 regrow kept them alive.
The problem is with raids where you can not go to the bottom because you will get killed there, you can't go to any floor because you will die in twf, and you can not jump outside either since you will also be killed there while the attackers freely heal everyone inside from outside. Giving the attackers a big advantage while the structures were placed to give defenders an advantage.
As I said today 10 Reavers in alb BG dropping multiple twf from ground floor up to the top. Covering the whole tower with twf, no way to go anywhere for the defenders. And twf player count is going up and up, so this is not even the end of twf numbers we see here.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 2:00 AM
by
relvinian
I would say that it is reasonable to examine the way that all ras work in nf, how it works in towers, etc.
Right now u can sos up into a tower through a twf and then drop ur own twfs.
all realms have access to twf. Also maelstrom. Etc.
Now necromancer happens to the the only class who can run into a tower, have the pet be mezzed or stunned, and without purging drop maelstrom, ichor, and volc pillar while mezzed or stunned.
BD not only gets TWF, but also maelstrom as well.
Right now u can sos up into a tower through a twf and then drop ur own twfs.
all realms have access to twf. Also maelstrom. Etc.
Now necromancer happens to the the only class who can run into a tower, have the pet be mezzed or stunned, and without purging drop maelstrom, ichor, and volc pillar while mezzed or stunned.
BD not only gets TWF, but also maelstrom as well.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 8:27 AM
by
Hejjin
Careful Relv, people will take up the cry to nerf warden healing ;-).relvinian wrote: ↑Sat 20 Jul 2019 11:08 PMToday on a pug with a lvl 38 in it and a 45 i was the only one healing with 20 regrowth.
Nobody died to twf when they ran into it.
At the bottom spamming group heal my 20 regrow kept them alive.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 10:28 AM
by
Hejjin
Please define which type of tower you are referring to, do you mean the outpost/guard/watch outer towers, or do you mean the inner keep towers? If the latter then you are wrong, go do what I did, place a groundtarget at one end of the keep roof, walk to the edge of the other end and do /gtrange, then repeat that across the other section of roof, then compare that to the radius of TWF. You are correct about the outer towers though, once that outer door is down there is no way for you to escape TWF.Hawkaye wrote: ↑Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:27 PMPlaying a healer in tower defense I can tell you if they place twf centered in the lord room there is absolutely no place to go on the top 3 floors where it wont hit you . the only places you can go are out onto the oil level which is usually camped by climbers just waiting for that, or jump off tower into the attacking BG and die instantly.
Fixes Id like to see: Make twf obey LoS no LoS to the point it was cast it should not hit. The actual caster must be in LoS to cast it no more necro shade cheese running up into the defenders to assist on casting it and no getting assist from dead people.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 10:32 AM
by
Hejjin
So what are you now suggesting? That TWF be removed in its entirety? I believe the old adage applies : Give someone an inch and they'll take a mile.keen wrote: ↑Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:48 PMAlb BG Had 10 Reavers today. Also adjustments in z axis would be completely useless since multiple twfs were dropped on every level.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:20 AM
by
Leandrys
Get rid of any kind of vertical range on TWF, lower damages, increase casting time to at least 5 secs (same than mines btw), numerous simple fixes to an urgent balance issue.
And if it still allow abuses and determinates the win/loss of RvR by itself, then yeah, get rid of it. It's much too strong right now, way much, something has to be done to get rid of the crappy ultimate DAOC experience :
"Look mom, i pressed button, they die lol".
But do something Phoenix staff, really, otherwise a lot of people will start to wonder what is really going on. I mean, giving BDs both NM and TWF, what the heck ?
And if it still allow abuses and determinates the win/loss of RvR by itself, then yeah, get rid of it. It's much too strong right now, way much, something has to be done to get rid of the crappy ultimate DAOC experience :
"Look mom, i pressed button, they die lol".
But do something Phoenix staff, really, otherwise a lot of people will start to wonder what is really going on. I mean, giving BDs both NM and TWF, what the heck ?
Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:25 AM
by
Wooshh
I did from 35 to 50 entirely in rvr with my scout, and i did many keep taking or keep defense, i think i died twice for twf... And i was always solo,no heal. Nerf twf why? The timing of twf is known. The points where twf is landed are known. It can be countered in 90% cases
Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:26 AM
by
florin
Wooshh wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:25 AMI did from 35 to 50 entirely in rvr with my scout, and i did many keep taking or keep defense, i think i died twice for twf... And i was always solo,no heal. Nerf twf why? The timing of twf is known. The points where twf is landed are known. It can be countered in 90% cases
Lol - maybe because you were hiding with the girls in the back
Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:45 AM
by
Wooshh
florin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:26 AMWooshh wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:25 AMI did from 35 to 50 entirely in rvr with my scout, and i did many keep taking or keep defense, i think i died twice for twf... And i was always solo,no heal. Nerf twf why? The timing of twf is known. The points where twf is landed are known. It can be countered in 90% cases
Lol - maybe because you were hiding with the girls in the back
so girls dont die from twf, while you die and QQ. You dont need a nerf, you need a change of sex
Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:45 AM
by
Hejjin
Or perhaps he was actually paying attention and noticed exactly when the TWF arrived, then noticed which areas of the structure were slightly outside of the TWF and immediately moved to those areas? Yes multiple TWF's can be an issue, a single TWF is not an issue in the main keep towers, except to the perpetually unwary. Personally I have always felt that TWF was too strong in certain specific situations, however I am just surprised as to why people are now more vocal about it in NF than they were in OF where TWF was much worse due to how narrow the OF keep towers were.florin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:26 AMWooshh wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:25 AMI did from 35 to 50 entirely in rvr with my scout, and i did many keep taking or keep defense, i think i died twice for twf... And i was always solo,no heal. Nerf twf why? The timing of twf is known. The points where twf is landed are known. It can be countered in 90% cases
Lol - maybe because you were hiding with the girls in the back
Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:50 AM
by
florin
Hejjin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:45 AMOr perhaps he was actually paying attention and noticed exactly when the TWF arrived, then noticed which areas of the structure were slightly outside of the TWF and immediately moved to those areas? Yes multiple TWF's can be an issue, a single TWF is not an issue in the main keep towers, except to the perpetually unwary. Personally I have always felt that TWF was too strong in certain specific situations, however I am just surprised as to why people are now more vocal about it in NF than they were in OF where TWF was much worse due to how narrow the OF keep towers were.florin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:26 AMWooshh wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:25 AMI did from 35 to 50 entirely in rvr with my scout, and i did many keep taking or keep defense, i think i died twice for twf... And i was always solo,no heal. Nerf twf why? The timing of twf is known. The points where twf is landed are known. It can be countered in 90% cases
Lol - maybe because you were hiding with the girls in the back
Someone has to rush the keep/tower. A lvl 35 not rushing is what I expect - not necessarily a strategic mastermind
Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:51 AM
by
florin
Wooshh wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:45 AMflorin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:26 AMWooshh wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:25 AMI did from 35 to 50 entirely in rvr with my scout, and i did many keep taking or keep defense, i think i died twice for twf... And i was always solo,no heal. Nerf twf why? The timing of twf is known. The points where twf is landed are known. It can be countered in 90% cases
Lol - maybe because you were hiding with the girls in the back
so girls dont die from twf, while you die and QQ. You dont need a nerf, you need a change of sex
I’m a necro - I don’t die from twf
Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:56 AM
by
Hejjin
Yes someone has to engage the defenders and the commander, but a lot of solo people also rush in to the commander, and they are usually the ones that end up dead.florin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:50 AMHejjin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:45 AMOr perhaps he was actually paying attention and noticed exactly when the TWF arrived, then noticed which areas of the structure were slightly outside of the TWF and immediately moved to those areas? Yes multiple TWF's can be an issue, a single TWF is not an issue in the main keep towers, except to the perpetually unwary. Personally I have always felt that TWF was too strong in certain specific situations, however I am just surprised as to why people are now more vocal about it in NF than they were in OF where TWF was much worse due to how narrow the OF keep towers were.florin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:26 AMLol - maybe because you were hiding with the girls in the back
Someone has to rush the keep/tower. A lvl 35 not rushing is what I expect - not necessarily a strategic mastermind
Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:08 PM
by
florin
Hejjin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:56 AMYes someone has to engage the defenders and the commander, but a lot of solo people also rush in to the commander, and they are usually the ones that end up dead.florin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:50 AMHejjin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:45 AMOr perhaps he was actually paying attention and noticed exactly when the TWF arrived, then noticed which areas of the structure were slightly outside of the TWF and immediately moved to those areas? Yes multiple TWF's can be an issue, a single TWF is not an issue in the main keep towers, except to the perpetually unwary. Personally I have always felt that TWF was too strong in certain specific situations, however I am just surprised as to why people are now more vocal about it in NF than they were in OF where TWF was much worse due to how narrow the OF keep towers were.
Someone has to rush the keep/tower. A lvl 35 not rushing is what I expect - not necessarily a strategic mastermind
Regardless of my view on twf. (Personally think it’s fine) - a solo, stealth, ranged, lowbie class coming here and saying Learn2play and avoid twf is a bit weak. But hey kudos, pat on the back. Job well done .
Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:08 PM
by
Hejjin
So to summarise : Nerf it to oblivion and if it still causes any sort of problems remove it altogether...Leandrys wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:20 AMGet rid of any kind of vertical range on TWF, lower damages, increase casting time to at least 5 secs (same than mines btw), numerous simple fixes to an urgent balance issue.
And if it still allow abuses and determinates the win/loss of RvR by itself, then yeah, get rid of it. It's much too strong right now, way much, something has to be done to get rid of the crappy ultimate DAOC experience :
"Look mom, i pressed button, they die lol".
I am wondering if some of you are new to Phoenix or Keep sieges or have only just started to pay attention, especially as you are only now questioning what classes get specific RAs.Leandrys wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:20 AMBut do something Phoenix staff, really, otherwise a lot of people will start to wonder what is really going on. I mean, giving BDs both NM and TWF, what the heck ?
Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:14 PM
by
keen
I suggest that TWF gets banned around Lords so you can use it open field where it is just a fine RA, but cant use it for keep defense where it is an iwin RA that turns attackers into being on a big advantage over defenders while keep structures are supposed to give the defenders an advantage.Hejjin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 10:32 AMSo what are you now suggesting? That TWF be removed in its entirety? I believe the old adage applies : Give someone an inch and they'll take a mile.keen wrote: ↑Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:48 PMAlb BG Had 10 Reavers today. Also adjustments in z axis would be completely useless since multiple twfs were dropped on every level.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:26 PM
by
Hejjin
Shrug, that is between you and Wooshh. TWF can be a complete PITA, especially multiple TWFs with partially overlapping fields, I am more concerned about the forum bandwagons than about any changes to TWF.florin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:08 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:56 AMYes someone has to engage the defenders and the commander, but a lot of solo people also rush in to the commander, and they are usually the ones that end up dead.florin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:50 AMSomeone has to rush the keep/tower. A lvl 35 not rushing is what I expect - not necessarily a strategic mastermind
Regardless of my view on twf. (Personally think it’s fine) - a solo, stealth, ranged, lowbie class coming here and saying Learn2play and avoid twf is a bit weak. But hey kudos, pat on the back. Job well done .
Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:28 PM
by
bm01
What I'm wondering is, did people really thought TWF affecting only one floor wasn't strong enough? How?
Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:42 PM
by
Wooshh
shrug x 2, concerned about bandwagons x 2Hejjin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:26 PMShrug, that is between you and Wooshh. TWF can be a complete PITA, especially multiple TWFs with partially overlapping fields, I am more concerned about the forum bandwagons than about any changes to TWF.florin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:08 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:56 AMYes someone has to engage the defenders and the commander, but a lot of solo people also rush in to the commander, and they are usually the ones that end up dead.
Regardless of my view on twf. (Personally think it’s fine) - a solo, stealth, ranged, lowbie class coming here and saying Learn2play and avoid twf is a bit weak. But hey kudos, pat on the back. Job well done .
Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:55 PM
by
Hejjin
I believe a better solution would be to define a 1200 by 1200 unit area around the keep tower and code it so that only a single TWF can be active within that area, but only the devs can say if that would be possible,keen wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:14 PMI suggest that TWF gets banned around Lords so you can use it open field where it is just a fine RA, but cant use it for keep defense where it is an iwin RA that turns attackers into being on a big advantage over defenders while keep structures are supposed to give the defenders an advantage.Hejjin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 10:32 AMSo what are you now suggesting? That TWF be removed in its entirety? I believe the old adage applies : Give someone an inch and they'll take a mile.keen wrote: ↑Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:48 PMAlb BG Had 10 Reavers today. Also adjustments in z axis would be completely useless since multiple twfs were dropped on every level.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 1:21 PM
by
Leandrys
Hejjin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:08 PMI am wondering if some of you are new to Phoenix or Keep sieges or have only just started to pay attention, especially as you are only now questioning what classes get specific RAs.
Don''t try to be that guy, you're bad at it anyway, and i've been talking of this broken RA since the beginning, so thank you for your attempt of intervention, but it's related to nothing tbh.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 1:32 PM
by
Hejjin
Perhaps you have, and I failed to notice them.Leandrys wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 1:21 PMDon''t try to be that guy, you're bad at it anyway, and i've been talking of this broken RA since the beginning, so thank you for your attempt of intervention, but it's related to nothing tbh.
Why would anyone that has been playing the game for a while only now start to wonder about the following?
Leandrys wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 11:20 AMBut do something Phoenix staff, really, otherwise a lot of people will start to wonder what is really going on. I mean, giving BDs both NM and TWF, what the heck ?
Sun 21 Jul 2019 3:06 PM
by
Leandrys
What's the point you're trying to do exactly ? Makes no sense at the moment. I have 7 or 8 millions RPs on Phoenix all toons together, maybe more now, really think i'm starting to discover RAs ? Never heard of rhetorical questions before, didn't think for one moment i had something in mind ?
Sun 21 Jul 2019 3:32 PM
by
Hejjin
Shrug, Obviously I am aware of what a rhetorical question is, I was commenting about the phrasing used. I am not a fan of nerfs in general, as much as I think the server would have been a better places without Animists, BDs and Necromancers it is too late to do anything about the RAs that have been given to any of those classes.Leandrys wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 3:06 PMWhat's the point you're trying to do exactly ? Makes no sense at the moment. I have 7 or 8 millions RPs on Phoenix all toons together, maybe more now, really think i'm starting to discover RAs ? Never heard of rhetorical questions before, didn't think for one moment i had something in mind ?
Sun 21 Jul 2019 7:29 PM
by
keen
Hejjin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 3:32 PMShrug, Obviously I am aware of what a rhetorical question is, I was commenting about the phrasing used. I am not a fan of nerfs in general, as much as I think the server would have been a better places without Animists, BDs and Necromancers it is too late to do anything about the RAs that have been given to any of those classes.Leandrys wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 3:06 PMWhat's the point you're trying to do exactly ? Makes no sense at the moment. I have 7 or 8 millions RPs on Phoenix all toons together, maybe more now, really think i'm starting to discover RAs ? Never heard of rhetorical questions before, didn't think for one moment i had something in mind ?
it is not to late, you can just adjust TWF so it fits the settings.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 7:34 PM
by
Hejjin
I meant as in removing them entirely or changing what RAs a specific class gets. At this point in time there is nothing that should be done about BDs having both TWF and NM regardless of how powerful the RAs are, or how popular the class is.keen wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 7:29 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 3:32 PMShrug, Obviously I am aware of what a rhetorical question is, I was commenting about the phrasing used. I am not a fan of nerfs in general, as much as I think the server would have been a better places without Animists, BDs and Necromancers it is too late to do anything about the RAs that have been given to any of those classes.Leandrys wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jul 2019 3:06 PMWhat's the point you're trying to do exactly ? Makes no sense at the moment. I have 7 or 8 millions RPs on Phoenix all toons together, maybe more now, really think i'm starting to discover RAs ? Never heard of rhetorical questions before, didn't think for one moment i had something in mind ?
it is not to late, you can just adjust TWF so it fits the settings.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 8:47 PM
by
Leandrys
What ? Every online game does that on a regular basis, there's no problem, whining people = abusing people on a native flaw in general design, Team Phoenix messed up badly with RAs, giving them to classes which didn't need them on a total arbitrary decision.
What were they trying to compensate for with TWF BD ? That the class allready was strong without it ? They shoulda've received Ichor or NM + Juggernaut at the best, that's all.
How to change this ? Well, just change this. Strangely, nothing's done, while blatantly OP. Curious, right ?
What were they trying to compensate for with TWF BD ? That the class allready was strong without it ? They shoulda've received Ichor or NM + Juggernaut at the best, that's all.
How to change this ? Well, just change this. Strangely, nothing's done, while blatantly OP. Curious, right ?
Sun 21 Jul 2019 8:48 PM
by
relvinian
I tell you what. This is my sincere proposal regarding twf.
It effects the floor it is on and one floor above it and TWO floors below it.
I would either leave TWF as it is so you don't make the server into a carebear server. And tell people to SCOUT the goddamn towers.
OR
AT MOST, I would make TWF effect the floor its on, and ONE UP and ONE DOWN.
That is another nerf but if it isn't the last one i want to reroll the class of my choice to 50 for free.
And i want free realm and rvr respecs.
Selling warden temp, cheap!
All war is deception-- Sun Tsu.
If you run in a straight line in predictable ways into towers without scouting and die?
Boo hoo.
It effects the floor it is on and one floor above it and TWO floors below it.
I would either leave TWF as it is so you don't make the server into a carebear server. And tell people to SCOUT the goddamn towers.
OR
AT MOST, I would make TWF effect the floor its on, and ONE UP and ONE DOWN.
That is another nerf but if it isn't the last one i want to reroll the class of my choice to 50 for free.
And i want free realm and rvr respecs.
Selling warden temp, cheap!
All war is deception-- Sun Tsu.
If you run in a straight line in predictable ways into towers without scouting and die?
Boo hoo.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 8:50 PM
by
Leandrys
One floor, still extremely strong this way.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 9:36 PM
by
Hejjin
Increase the snare component or the radius?
I am not proposing either of those changes, just curious as to your views on them.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:39 AM
by
gotwqqd
Someone should not be picking a class based on it having access to an RA
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:52 AM
by
Druth
gotwqqd wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:39 AMSomeone should not be picking a class based on it having access to an RA
Trying out my BD in RvR the last week, specifically to see TWF from the perspective of using it.
It doesn't always work, but when it work it works well.
I've had it hit a few, and lots of people, and when it hit lots of people I both got 7k rps from kills, but also 4k from bonus rps when task ended.
And that was twf4, maybe twf5 is not even worth taking, but when I can I will try it.
It's also won me a few 1v1/2 fights, but being low RR and wanting to get high twf, I dont have purge, so hard to win 1v1's vs. remotely competent people.
But it's besides the point how I do in 1v1 situations.
The point is that the RA is, in my personal view and experience, is to strong and way to vital to a successful siege.
Funny sidenote, yesterday a group advertised for: "/lfg lfm skald/pac healer/twf5"
Note it was not even BD, it was twf5
Mon 22 Jul 2019 7:15 AM
by
Freedomcall
The problem of twf is you can't actually figure out which floor it is cast on.
Lots of time, you have to choose going upstairs or downstairs simply by guessing, and if your guess is wrong, your pretty much dead.
Lots of time, you have to choose going upstairs or downstairs simply by guessing, and if your guess is wrong, your pretty much dead.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 8:02 AM
by
gotwqqd
Why does it need hit multiple floors? Seems obvious the smaller vertical coverage is a good fix
Mon 22 Jul 2019 11:12 AM
by
Connavar
Thornweed Field - it's a field. Field means one flat area and not up and down too. It would help defending towers which are really small. Keeps are bigger and less a problem like in OF.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 3:57 PM
by
Leandrys
Thornweed Giant GLobe.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 4:59 PM
by
gruenesschaf
gruenesschaf
Connavar wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 11:12 AMThornweed Field - it's a field. Field means one flat area and not up and down too. It would help defending towers which are really small. Keeps are bigger and less a problem like in OF.
The magnetic field would like a word with you.
Anyways, on topic: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=10457
Tue 23 Jul 2019 6:03 PM
by
dougphisig
In regards to the: Someone should not be picking a class based on it having access to an RA
I think Wardens would like a word, this is one of their few things that make them unique besides pbt (which in pve is almost always preferred to have bubble from ani) & resists. They can be pretty dull if they didn't have this RA imo. It was literally the only reason i rolled warden because of access to twf and it being such an important role in pvp atm.
I think Wardens would like a word, this is one of their few things that make them unique besides pbt (which in pve is almost always preferred to have bubble from ani) & resists. They can be pretty dull if they didn't have this RA imo. It was literally the only reason i rolled warden because of access to twf and it being such an important role in pvp atm.
Wed 24 Jul 2019 6:05 AM
by
gotwqqd
Then the class has issues at its coredougphisig wrote: ↑Tue 23 Jul 2019 6:03 PMIn regards to the: Someone should not be picking a class based on it having access to an RA
I think Wardens would like a word, this is one of their few things that make them unique besides pbt (which in pve is almost always preferred to have bubble from ani) & resists. They can be pretty dull if they didn't have this RA imo. It was literally the only reason i rolled warden because of access to twf and it being such an important role in pvp atm.
Wed 24 Jul 2019 9:23 AM
by
keen
There is nothing wrong with a warden. It is a very strong class and part of almost every strong group.gotwqqd wrote: ↑Wed 24 Jul 2019 6:05 AMThen the class has issues at its coredougphisig wrote: ↑Tue 23 Jul 2019 6:03 PMIn regards to the: Someone should not be picking a class based on it having access to an RA
I think Wardens would like a word, this is one of their few things that make them unique besides pbt (which in pve is almost always preferred to have bubble from ani) & resists. They can be pretty dull if they didn't have this RA imo. It was literally the only reason i rolled warden because of access to twf and it being such an important role in pvp atm.
Wed 24 Jul 2019 10:24 AM
by
gotwqqd
I don’t knowkeen wrote: ↑Wed 24 Jul 2019 9:23 AMThere is nothing wrong with a warden. It is a very strong class and part of almost every strong group.gotwqqd wrote: ↑Wed 24 Jul 2019 6:05 AMThen the class has issues at its coredougphisig wrote: ↑Tue 23 Jul 2019 6:03 PMIn regards to the: Someone should not be picking a class based on it having access to an RA
I think Wardens would like a word, this is one of their few things that make them unique besides pbt (which in pve is almost always preferred to have bubble from ani) & resists. They can be pretty dull if they didn't have this RA imo. It was literally the only reason i rolled warden because of access to twf and it being such an important role in pvp atm.
I played one on live and they seemed to over solo well and rvr adequately.
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