Reflex attack nerf .. how has it effect you ?

How bad is this nerf .. and how do we make up for it ?

Thu 23 May 2019 8:30 PM by Yokahu

I shelved my RR5 friar a month ago when assassins started to ignore me. So I rolled an infil to take the fight to them.

With the nerf, I might get those points from RA5 into purge, MoParry/pain, and More dex. Maybe assassins will start attacking me more often now.

Who am I kidding, I’m having too much fun with my infil to retake the friar. I guess the nerf won’t affect me after all. Oh, I might engage Nate now if he doesn’t quit over this.

Thu 23 May 2019 9:18 PM by Dramead

So how many friars quit today ? Its almost as if they do not want any class to be original .. a month ago they buff friars to make them more viable . and now we nerf em.. hmmm

Thu 23 May 2019 9:30 PM by Dramead

Hmm also I was thinking since friars were feared by stealthers which made them fit perfect in the rock , paper, scissors thing.. And now not so much.. And since were on a server that likes to buff and nerf class uniqueness . How about this for a RA nerf,

Vanish .. If 1 person is withing 500 units then vanish has a 20% chance to fail.. 2 people withing 500 units it has a 40% chance ot fail . 3 = 60% , ECT.. I mean if were going to nerf the anti stealth then lets even the playing field with stealthers ..

Thu 23 May 2019 10:19 PM by Blitze

I played tonight and it is the least fun I’ve had in a long time, it felt exactly like I was rr2 again.

Yours
Blitze - a solo friar.

Fri 24 May 2019 6:21 AM by inoeth

poor friars have to actually use abilities now LOL

Fri 24 May 2019 8:30 AM by Hejjin

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 6:21 AM
poor friars have to actually use abilities now LOL

We had to actually use abilities against assassins even with RA5, well except against the absolutely clueless ones...

Fri 24 May 2019 11:45 AM by inoeth

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 8:30 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 6:21 AM
poor friars have to actually use abilities now LOL

We had to actually use abilities against assassins even with RA5, well except against the absolutely clueless ones...

a /laugh macro is no ability...

Fri 24 May 2019 12:03 PM by Sepplord

Dramead wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 9:30 PM
Hmm also I was thinking since friars were feared by stealthers which made them fit perfect in the rock , paper, scissors thing.. And now not so much.. And since were on a server that likes to buff and nerf class uniqueness . How about this for a RA nerf,

Vanish .. If 1 person is withing 500 units then vanish has a 20% chance to fail.. 2 people withing 500 units it has a 40% chance ot fail . 3 = 60% , ECT.. I mean if were going to nerf the anti stealth then lets even the playing field with stealthers ..

Good friars are still a rock to the assassin-scissors....they already were before phoenix buffed them up (but i think the other buffs were still fine)
RA was bugged, and is now affected like all other proccs ingame by attackers and defenders weaponspeed.
I am pretty sure no serious friar player is quitting over this. The ones quitting are the ones that jumped the friartrain when the state of RA became widely known

bringing up vanish in this thread about RA is kind of showing how biased you are ^^

Fri 24 May 2019 12:03 PM by Hejjin

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 11:45 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 8:30 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 6:21 AM
poor friars have to actually use abilities now LOL

We had to actually use abilities against assassins even with RA5, well except against the absolutely clueless ones...

a /laugh macro is no ability...

I have never emoted in RvR...and yes I did have to use abilities, but heyho, it is what it is I will just revert back to my previous build. A free respec would have been nice...

Edit : Correction, I have emoted, a /bow against other soloers after the fight (when I won, obviously)

Fri 24 May 2019 12:42 PM by Dindelion

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 12:03 PM
Dramead wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 9:30 PM
Hmm also I was thinking since friars were feared by stealthers which made them fit perfect in the rock , paper, scissors thing.. And now not so much.. And since were on a server that likes to buff and nerf class uniqueness . How about this for a RA nerf,

Vanish .. If 1 person is withing 500 units then vanish has a 20% chance to fail.. 2 people withing 500 units it has a 40% chance ot fail . 3 = 60% , ECT.. I mean if were going to nerf the anti stealth then lets even the playing field with stealthers ..

Good friars are still a rock to the assassin-scissors....they already were before phoenix buffed them up (but i think the other buffs were still fine)
RA was bugged, and is now affected like all other proccs ingame by attackers and defenders weaponspeed.
I am pretty sure no serious friar player is quitting over this. The ones quitting are the ones that jumped the friartrain when the state of RA became widely known

bringing up vanish in this thread about RA is kind of showing how biased you are ^^

Let's not start to lie. I know it's hard to stay without a bias, especially since you're playing a SB, you're directly involved. Whether it needed a nerf or not is one thing, but It was NOT bugged. Devs decided to treat it like a proc but it was absolutely not a bugfix. RA has always been a fixed number (50%, or 30% in later patch on Live).

Also stop pretending vanish has nothing to do with it, we all know why RA has been nerfed for friars (that's what the change is, because it barely affected light tanks), if you can answer who cried the most on forums and if you can connect 2 dots, you can understand why people start talking about vanish. I know you can.

Fri 24 May 2019 1:15 PM by florin

Dramead wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 9:30 PM
Hmm also I was thinking since friars were feared by stealthers which made them fit perfect in the rock , paper, scissors thing.. And now not so much.. And since were on a server that likes to buff and nerf class uniqueness . How about this for a RA nerf,

Vanish .. If 1 person is withing 500 units then vanish has a 20% chance to fail.. 2 people withing 500 units it has a 40% chance ot fail . 3 = 60% , ECT.. I mean if were going to nerf the anti stealth then lets even the playing field with stealthers ..

This is a great idea - please make a suggestion thread.

Pretty much make vanish an aoe spell with a chance to be resisted

Fri 24 May 2019 1:22 PM by Dakkhon

Well after all the melee and stealthers crying over RA...you know that UNSTYLED attack that was killing them by the droves they nerfed it. Must of had friends in high places to get that done. Several other nerfs to alb it seems as well. Funny how history repeats itself.......guess we knew it would happen anyways so. I guess we will see what other balance changes are coming. Just listen for the crying lol. Keep playing your Friars folks. Because I think you will see it wasnt RA that was killing them...they just where not that good imo.

Fri 24 May 2019 1:23 PM by Sepplord

Dindelion wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 12:42 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 12:03 PM
Dramead wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 9:30 PM
Hmm also I was thinking since friars were feared by stealthers which made them fit perfect in the rock , paper, scissors thing.. And now not so much.. And since were on a server that likes to buff and nerf class uniqueness . How about this for a RA nerf,

Vanish .. If 1 person is withing 500 units then vanish has a 20% chance to fail.. 2 people withing 500 units it has a 40% chance ot fail . 3 = 60% , ECT.. I mean if were going to nerf the anti stealth then lets even the playing field with stealthers ..

Good friars are still a rock to the assassin-scissors....they already were before phoenix buffed them up (but i think the other buffs were still fine)
RA was bugged, and is now affected like all other proccs ingame by attackers and defenders weaponspeed.
I am pretty sure no serious friar player is quitting over this. The ones quitting are the ones that jumped the friartrain when the state of RA became widely known

bringing up vanish in this thread about RA is kind of showing how biased you are ^^

Let's not start to lie. I know it's hard to stay without a bias, especially since you're playing a SB, you're directly involved. Whether it needed a nerf or not is one thing, but It was NOT bugged. Devs decided to treat it like a proc but it was absolutely not a bugfix. RA has always been a fixed number (50%, or 30% in later patch on Live).

Also stop pretending vanish has nothing to do with it, we all know why RA has been nerfed for friars (that's what the change is, because it barely affected light tanks), if you can answer who cried the most on forums and if you can connect 2 dots, you can understand why people start talking about vanish. I know you can.

I didn't lie, don't assume malice when ignorance works just as well

. I don't know how it worked on live...i haven't played much in TOA and nothing afterwards. And i never played assassin back then. I took it from being a proc but not having the procchance calculation unintentionally. If that wasn't the case, and it was supposed to be like that intentionally then it was just a balancechange, no fix and i was wrong. You immediatly calling me a liar also shows how emotional you are currently in this discussion. Similar to bringing up vanish

Which bring us to the next point, vanish. You claim that RA only got nerfed because stealthers whined...i disagree (because there are countless stealther whines, that created much more pages of comments, that didn't result in a change). But EVEN IF that statement was correct...what would vanish have to do with it?

Your line of thinking: RA got nerfed --> assassins whines are to blame --> in a thread discussing RA-nerf i will now complain about vanish to get revenge

Twist it like you want....bringing up vanish in this thread makes no sense at all and is simply a result of you being upset and needing to vent. (see how i am not calling you a liar for claiming how it is connected, but looking for a more reasonable and understandable explanation why you would make such claims

)

Fri 24 May 2019 1:27 PM by Sepplord

Dakkhon wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 1:22 PM
Well after all the melee and stealthers crying over RA...you know that UNSTYLED attack that was killing them by the droves they nerfed it. Must of had friends in high places to get that done. Several other nerfs to alb it seems as well. Funny how history repeats itself.......guess we knew it would happen anyways so. I guess we will see what other balance changes are coming. Just listen for the crying lol. Keep playing your Friars folks. Because I think you will see it wasnt RA that was killing them...they just where not that good imo.

Most assassins are aware that friars are still killers and not targets for them. Friars were strong vs stealthers in SI, without all the buffs they got here on phoenix. The ones not realizing that are the whining FOTM-friars (not all friars...just the whining ones). Your first half screams butthurt pretty loud though...so i am confused into which category you fall into ^^

Fri 24 May 2019 1:51 PM by Blitze

I am not a FotM friar, and to my knowledge I have played a friar in every iteration of DAoC.

But I think it makes sense for the friar community to whine when we are an underperforming and underplayed class and our best solo RA got massively nerfed. In my opinion this happens because of a large number of whines from over performing and overplayed classes...

Yes in SI on live friars were decent Vs stealths but overall very gimped, therefore, they were massively buffed (heal-styles, heal-procs, WS-boost, 1.8 specc points) to a far greater extent than they have been here...

Also here you have to remember a number of custom Phoenix server changes that go against a friar:

1. Full cheap buffpots
2. permasprint for all
2. Stealth WS/con poison (not str/con)
3. No dodger
4. No good RR 5 ability.
5. NS/SB have vanish

I believe the devs do listen here and I hope friars get a /respec and ideally reflex attack swapped out for a useful RA, Ichor, AotG, DI, PR etc or I would love the Devs to put the old RR5 pbaoe dmg/disarm in.

Fri 24 May 2019 1:59 PM by mhenfhis

Reflex attack should have % maybe reduced to values like live has , 40% for lvl 5 and also not work on stun / mezz. That would be fine. I didnt test the new changes, but i understand now, for reflex to pop more vs stealthers now we have to use a fastest weapon?

Melee wise a stun after evade/parry reactonary would be nice but guess thats a problem many other classes faces with the 1.65 styles.

Fri 24 May 2019 3:23 PM by Hejjin

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 1:27 PM
Dakkhon wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 1:22 PM
Well after all the melee and stealthers crying over RA...you know that UNSTYLED attack that was killing them by the droves they nerfed it. Must of had friends in high places to get that done. Several other nerfs to alb it seems as well. Funny how history repeats itself.......guess we knew it would happen anyways so. I guess we will see what other balance changes are coming. Just listen for the crying lol. Keep playing your Friars folks. Because I think you will see it wasnt RA that was killing them...they just where not that good imo.

Most assassins are aware that friars are still killers and not targets for them. Friars were strong vs stealthers in SI, without all the buffs they got here on phoenix. The ones not realizing that are the whining FOTM-friars (not all friars...just the whining ones). Your first half screams butthurt pretty loud though...so i am confused into which category you fall into ^^

Hmmm

I was RR6.2 before I switched to RA 5 to mostly farm in PvE, I am currently RR6.4 and that gain is from keep defences / takes, so am I a FOTM Friar? Check my stats out (Dhavon), you will see I have a grand total of 34 solo kills, mostly from before I swapped to RA...

Fri 24 May 2019 4:05 PM by phixion

Dakkhon wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 1:22 PM
Well after all the melee and stealthers crying over RA...you know that UNSTYLED attack that was killing them by the droves they nerfed it. Must of had friends in high places to get that done. Several other nerfs to alb it seems as well. Funny how history repeats itself.......guess we knew it would happen anyways so. I guess we will see what other balance changes are coming. Just listen for the crying lol. Keep playing your Friars folks. Because I think you will see it wasnt RA that was killing them...they just where not that good imo.

Why do you keep saying it was a Friar thing, it was Reflex Attack thing.

Watch any of Nate's videos and tell me that's acceptable. A zerker swinging twice in a fight and the rest of the damage coming from a passive ability.

Whether that passive ability be on a Friar or Zerker, it was overpowered.

Now, if Friars had stealth, do you think they would still be as underplayed as they are now? I don't... People play stealthers here to avoid the zerg, if you are willing to run out on a visible then it's your choice--I personally wouldn't bother because I know the pain outweighs the fun, for me at least.

Fri 24 May 2019 4:59 PM by kratoxin

i mean i don't really understand why friars are complaining about solo, look at how badly savages are hurting solo wise on the herald LOL and we basically kill ourselves using buffs.

be lucky you even have good RA's

Fri 24 May 2019 5:14 PM by Sektor

kratoxin wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 4:59 PM
i mean i don't really understand why friars are complaining about solo, look at how badly savages are hurting solo wise on the herald LOL and we basically kill ourselves using buffs.

be lucky you even have good RA's

The difference is friars are a solo class. Every melee train wants savages.

Fri 24 May 2019 5:21 PM by Hejjin

Sektor wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 5:14 PM
kratoxin wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 4:59 PM
i mean i don't really understand why friars are complaining about solo, look at how badly savages are hurting solo wise on the herald LOL and we basically kill ourselves using buffs.

be lucky you even have good RA's

The difference is friars are a solo class. Every melee train wants savages.

As someone that started on Mid, I am not sure that is true, otherwise there would be substantially more Savages.

Fri 24 May 2019 5:34 PM by kratoxin

Sektor wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 5:14 PM
kratoxin wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 4:59 PM
i mean i don't really understand why friars are complaining about solo, look at how badly savages are hurting solo wise on the herald LOL and we basically kill ourselves using buffs.

be lucky you even have good RA's

The difference is friars are a solo class. Every melee train wants savages.

any class can be a solo class, all you have to do is go out solo LOL

Fri 24 May 2019 6:47 PM by jelzinga_EU

Dakkhon wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 1:22 PM
Well after all the melee and stealthers crying over RA...you know that UNSTYLED attack that was killing them by the droves they nerfed it. Must of had friends in high places to get that done. Several other nerfs to alb it seems as well. Funny how history repeats itself.......guess we knew it would happen anyways so. I guess we will see what other balance changes are coming. Just listen for the crying lol. Keep playing your Friars folks. Because I think you will see it wasnt RA that was killing them...they just where not that good imo.

Sure, it has everything to do with "get gut m8". Swing back on a a SB back on every combat-round is completely balanced and the real problem was the lack of skill on the SB-player...

If anything, it was most likely the opposite: A very "skilled" SB could get his ass handed by a very "mediocre" Friar, simply because there was no counter available to Reflex Attack. There still isn't, and I have not yet attempted a friar again, but hopefully the proc-rate is lowered enough that less friars might take it up. Or alternatively, they specced now other RA's and the friar will still beat me, but then at least it is not because of a silly RA without any counter and perhaps better gameplay will turn the tide next time

Sat 25 May 2019 12:23 PM by Cruella

5 solo fights after getting zerged all day.... lost 3....could have won 2.. but vanish... yeah.... works like indented i guess.

Time for a 30 min vanish timer now

or die like a man if you miscalculated a fight....but wait... noone wants to loose right.... /giggles
All the stealther community wants are "fair fights"... i totaly got that wrong sry

Sat 25 May 2019 2:54 PM by Sektor

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 6:47 PM
Dakkhon wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 1:22 PM
Well after all the melee and stealthers crying over RA...you know that UNSTYLED attack that was killing them by the droves they nerfed it. Must of had friends in high places to get that done. Several other nerfs to alb it seems as well. Funny how history repeats itself.......guess we knew it would happen anyways so. I guess we will see what other balance changes are coming. Just listen for the crying lol. Keep playing your Friars folks. Because I think you will see it wasnt RA that was killing them...they just where not that good imo.

Sure, it has everything to do with "get gut m8". Swing back on a a SB back on every combat-round is completely balanced and the real problem was the lack of skill on the SB-player...

If anything, it was most likely the opposite: A very "skilled" SB could get his ass handed by a very "mediocre" Friar, simply because there was no counter available to Reflex Attack. There still isn't, and I have not yet attempted a friar again, but hopefully the proc-rate is lowered enough that less friars might take it up. Or alternatively, they specced now other RA's and the friar will still beat me, but then at least it is not because of a silly RA without any counter and perhaps better gameplay will turn the tide next time

Right. Double frost spam takes sooooo much skill. 😂

Sat 25 May 2019 3:20 PM by jelzinga_EU

Sektor wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 2:54 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 6:47 PM
Dakkhon wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 1:22 PM
Well after all the melee and stealthers crying over RA...you know that UNSTYLED attack that was killing them by the droves they nerfed it. Must of had friends in high places to get that done. Several other nerfs to alb it seems as well. Funny how history repeats itself.......guess we knew it would happen anyways so. I guess we will see what other balance changes are coming. Just listen for the crying lol. Keep playing your Friars folks. Because I think you will see it wasnt RA that was killing them...they just where not that good imo.

Sure, it has everything to do with "get gut m8". Swing back on a a SB back on every combat-round is completely balanced and the real problem was the lack of skill on the SB-player...

If anything, it was most likely the opposite: A very "skilled" SB could get his ass handed by a very "mediocre" Friar, simply because there was no counter available to Reflex Attack. There still isn't, and I have not yet attempted a friar again, but hopefully the proc-rate is lowered enough that less friars might take it up. Or alternatively, they specced now other RA's and the friar will still beat me, but then at least it is not because of a silly RA without any counter and perhaps better gameplay will turn the tide next time

Right. Double frost spam takes sooooo much skill. 😂

You're right, it doesn't. But if you bring it down to that level, nothing really requires any skill in this game.

Sat 25 May 2019 4:11 PM by Dramead

sry double post for some reason

Sat 25 May 2019 4:24 PM by Dramead

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 4:11 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 12:03 PM
Dramead wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 9:30 PM
Hmm also I was thinking since friars were feared by stealthers which made them fit perfect in the rock , paper, scissors thing.. And now not so much.. And since were on a server that likes to buff and nerf class uniqueness . How about this for a RA nerf,

Vanish .. If 1 person is withing 500 units then vanish has a 20% chance to fail.. 2 people withing 500 units it has a 40% chance ot fail . 3 = 60% , ECT.. I mean if were going to nerf the anti stealth then lets even the playing field with stealthers ..

Good friars are still a rock to the assassin-scissors....they already were before phoenix buffed them up (but i think the other buffs were still fine)
RA was bugged, and is now affected like all other proccs ingame by attackers and defenders weaponspeed.
I am pretty sure no serious friar player is quitting over this. The ones quitting are the ones that jumped the friartrain when the state of RA became widely known

bringing up vanish in this thread about RA is kind of showing how biased you are ^^

Bias ?? I have a 50 infi, 50 reaver, 50 necro, 50 ranger, 50 animist, 50 shaman, 45 BD... Umm how does that make me biased ? As a Stealther myself it was nice knowing we has some sort of counter.. Not so much anymore .. Last week I had to ask myself before attacking someone is that a RA class ? Yes , ok well what RA's are up and rdy .. ECT.. Now I don't have to ask..

I bring up Vanish because it is one of if not the strongest RA in the game.. And it belongs to one of the if not the strongest class types in the game.. RA was only effective VS melee classes and required said classes to think about their game play instead of just rolling over everything. Vanish effects every single other class in the game .. A literal LOL button.

And for those of you who say ra VS 1 assassin its not that bad.. Your right .. Its not that bad for the assassin now... FYI for the future , when someone defends a class or ability when it gets nerfed. Does not mean they do it because it effect them directly ..

Yes I have, or had a friar. For me personally the nerf was enough for me to shelve it. After a long day of LOL'ing all over people with my infi and ranger . It was nice to jump on a friar and actually play the counter to the class (infi) I had been dominating on all day. I do not like friar enough to play it for any other reason . So you did get me on the fact that I do not claim to be a REAL friar...

Sat 25 May 2019 4:39 PM by Sektor

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 3:20 PM
Sektor wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 2:54 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 6:47 PM
Sure, it has everything to do with "get gut m8". Swing back on a a SB back on every combat-round is completely balanced and the real problem was the lack of skill on the SB-player...

If anything, it was most likely the opposite: A very "skilled" SB could get his ass handed by a very "mediocre" Friar, simply because there was no counter available to Reflex Attack. There still isn't, and I have not yet attempted a friar again, but hopefully the proc-rate is lowered enough that less friars might take it up. Or alternatively, they specced now other RA's and the friar will still beat me, but then at least it is not because of a silly RA without any counter and perhaps better gameplay will turn the tide next time

Right. Double frost spam takes sooooo much skill. 😂

You're right, it doesn't. But if you bring it down to that level, nothing really requires any skill in this game.

Thanks for negating your entire post. Only difference then is the, as Dramead said, the LOL vanish button.

Sat 25 May 2019 4:53 PM by jelzinga_EU

Sektor wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 4:39 PM
Thanks for negating your entire post. Only difference then is the, as Dramead said, the LOL vanish button.

Not sure I follow you. Are you saying the entire "validity" of the friar-class (or your friar) in a solo-setting was determined by having Reflex Attack ?

Because in all honesty: Yes, my shadowblade has Vanish, but if you nerfed/removed it, I wouldn't really be all salty about it. Vanish isn't doing anything in my fights, all it does is give me a chance to escape superiour numbers and avoid a /release - not give me more RP's from a fight I decided to bail out with Vanish.

Sat 25 May 2019 6:08 PM by Dramead

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 4:53 PM
Sektor wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 4:39 PM
Thanks for negating your entire post. Only difference then is the, as Dramead said, the LOL vanish button.

Not sure I follow you. Are you saying the entire "validity" of the friar-class (or your friar) in a solo-setting was determined by having Reflex Attack ?

Because in all honesty: Yes, my shadowblade has Vanish, but if you nerfed/removed it, I wouldn't really be all salty about it. Vanish isn't doing anything in my fights, all it does is give me a chance to escape superiour numbers and avoid a /release - not give me more RP's from a fight I decided to bail out with Vanish.

Ok so where is everyone elses chance at avoiding a release ? The point is RA was strong .. Very strong .. RR3 or 4 friar could stomp a group of 3 assassins if played right .. Not anymore .. But you still have your chance to avoid /release right ? You still have your tools .. Your still rock,paper,and scissors all in one class...

Sat 25 May 2019 6:16 PM by dbeattie71

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 4:53 PM
Sektor wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 4:39 PM
Thanks for negating your entire post. Only difference then is the, as Dramead said, the LOL vanish button.

Not sure I follow you. Are you saying the entire "validity" of the friar-class (or your friar) in a solo-setting was determined by having Reflex Attack ?

Because in all honesty: Yes, my shadowblade has Vanish, but if you nerfed/removed it, I wouldn't really be all salty about it. Vanish isn't doing anything in my fights, all it does is give me a chance to escape superiour numbers and avoid a /release - not give me more RP's from a fight I decided to bail out with Vanish.

I’ve fought plenty that used it to avoid losing a fight they started, so it isn’t just for avoiding superior numbers. It’s like the chicken door at the end of the line for roller coasters. 😂

Sat 25 May 2019 6:55 PM by Turano

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 6:08 PM
Ok so where is everyone elses chance at avoiding a release ? The point is RA was strong .. Very strong .. RR3 or 4 friar could stomp a group of 3 assassins if played right .. Not anymore .. But you still have your chance to avoid /release right ? You still have your tools .. Your still rock,paper,and scissors all in one class...

Wait, so the ability of killing 3 opponents solo (that "if played right" has to be a joke) is the same for you as the possibility of escaping a fight (added or not, whatever) every 15 minutes?
I can absolutely see where you guys come from and vanish can be annoying to deal with when you have a 1v1 and the other gtfo's.
But saying this and a passive ability that guarantees you the win in nearly every 1on1 with another meele is even in the same category is ridiculous

Sat 25 May 2019 7:13 PM by Hejjin

Turano wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 6:55 PM
Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 6:08 PM
Ok so where is everyone elses chance at avoiding a release ? The point is RA was strong .. Very strong .. RR3 or 4 friar could stomp a group of 3 assassins if played right .. Not anymore .. But you still have your chance to avoid /release right ? You still have your tools .. Your still rock,paper,and scissors all in one class...
Wait, so the ability of killing 3 opponents solo (that "if played right" has to be a joke) is the same for you as the possibility of escaping a fight (added or not, whatever) every 15 minutes?
I can absolutely see where you guys come from and vanish can be annoying to deal with when you have a 1v1 and the other gtfo's.
But saying this and a passive ability that guarantees you the win in nearly every 1on1 with another meele is even in the same category is ridiculous

Three was possible if the assassins basically added to the fight without even attempting to land a perf or coordinate with each other at all, so it was not so much skill from the Friar more the lack of skill / or just bad positioning from the assassins. It was never an automatic to win against more than 1 assassin, but it did require the assassins to work together and modify their tactics against the Friar, alas a lot of assassins seemingly either could not, or did not want to do that. I was not against RA being modified, I even suggested it needed toning down, but the extent of the change was rather drastic, especially in PvE which is what I was mostly using it for.

I have been out testing RA with various speed staves today, it is not as good as it was, or anywhere close to it, but it can perform ok in certain scenarios, I had a number of very close fights with similar ranked assassins (RR6 and above) that basically came down to the difference of 1 hit, but RA did not make that much of a difference, certainly less in terms of hp's done than If I had instead invested in more aug dex, moparry, mopain and IP2 for extra hp for myself. So I am just not convinced it is worth 30 points for a Friar, though from what I have heard it is working fine for zerks.

Sat 25 May 2019 7:27 PM by Dramead

Turano wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 6:55 PM
Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 6:08 PM
Ok so where is everyone elses chance at avoiding a release ? The point is RA was strong .. Very strong .. RR3 or 4 friar could stomp a group of 3 assassins if played right .. Not anymore .. But you still have your chance to avoid /release right ? You still have your tools .. Your still rock,paper,and scissors all in one class...
Wait, so the ability of killing 3 opponents solo (that "if played right" has to be a joke) is the same for you as the possibility of escaping a fight (added or not, whatever) every 15 minutes?
I can absolutely see where you guys come from and vanish can be annoying to deal with when you have a 1v1 and the other gtfo's.
But saying this and a passive ability that guarantees you the win in nearly every 1on1 with another meele is even in the same category is ridiculous

You miss the point ... Its not about RA or Vanish . Its about R,P,S and the tools that balance each other out . You mess with the tools of 1 group of classes without messing with the others and the balance gets thrown out of wack worse then it all ready is .. I am not tring to say DAOC was ever balanced . Once again RA was very strong against melee. Thats it. All ranged ate RA users for breakfast. And all assassins should eat casters for breakfast . Most tank eat stealthers for breakfast. Circle of life, Ying and Yang .. R,P,S.. The point is RA was strong VS melee because it was SUPPOSED to be ..

When i talk about Vanish its not because I think it is liken to RA. Its not . 15 min timer .. BUT you can escape almost anything you want to .. Whats a RA user escaping ? some melee who do not understand the concept of R,P,S ? Or some whining stealthers who think that R,P,S should not apply to them and they should be able to kill anything with ease ?

Sat 25 May 2019 7:28 PM by jelzinga_EU

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 6:08 PM
Ok so where is everyone elses chance at avoiding a release ? The point is RA was strong .. Very strong .. RR3 or 4 friar could stomp a group of 3 assassins if played right .. Not anymore .. But you still have your chance to avoid /release right ? You still have your tools .. Your still rock,paper,and scissors all in one class...

You're seriously not seeing the difference between 1 RA which is active and gives the assassin no RP's but a chance to avoid a /release once every 15 mins (and if it fails a free trip back seeing as you're disarmed for 30 secs) and the other being a passive RA which literally made you do 80%+ more DPS, depending on type and number of enemies ?

SB's have no speed, no CC, no heals, no buffs, no AoE and no ranged damage and thus no grouping with other classes. We need to be in melee-range to do our thing and being in the fray with our defenses (leather, low HP, and only frontal evade). If you start to complain about Vanish - take a real good look about the RA's others have and then tell me a 15 mins vanish with a 30 sec disarm which gives me no additional damage or CC is really that OP or are you just salty about "the one that got away" ? I got a real Moby-Dick and Achab feeling about this one :<

Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM by Dramead

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:28 PM
Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 6:08 PM
Ok so where is everyone elses chance at avoiding a release ? The point is RA was strong .. Very strong .. RR3 or 4 friar could stomp a group of 3 assassins if played right .. Not anymore .. But you still have your chance to avoid /release right ? You still have your tools .. Your still rock,paper,and scissors all in one class...

You're seriously not seeing the difference between 1 RA which is active and gives the assassin no RP's but a chance to avoid a /release once every 15 mins (and if it fails a free trip back seeing as you're disarmed for 30 secs) and the other being a passive RA which literally made you do 80%+ more DPS, depending on type and number of enemies ?

SB's have no speed, no CC, no heals, no buffs, no AoE and no ranged damage and thus no grouping with other classes. We need to be in melee-range to do our thing and being in the fray with our defenses (leather, low HP, and only frontal evade). If you start to complain about Vanish - take a real good look about the RA's others have and then tell me a 15 mins vanish with a 30 sec disarm which gives me no additional damage or CC is really that OP or are you just salty about "the one that got away" ? I got a real Moby-Dick and Achab feeling about this one :<

And you are seriously not see the fact that RA only did 80% more DPS to one type of char in the game( which happens to be the type you play

) .. Melee ... thats it.. Counter, counter, counter...RA has never done 1DPS to a ranged char ..

Oh and Friars have no venom, stealth, DW, crit strike , ECT

And once again I do not nor have I ever mained a Friar .. I care more about classes, abilities, realms , game as a whole then individual classes . Just fairness

If anything I care more about the fact the the old RA kept assassins at bay.. How many times do you think the mere presence of a RA5 friar kept assassins from popping on a grey.green,blue, ect . Now youll see that they ( YOU ) have free rein again. Congrats

Sat 25 May 2019 7:43 PM by jelzinga_EU

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
And you are seriously not see the fact that RA only did 80% more DPS to one type of char in the game( which happens to be the type you play ) .. Melee ... thats it.. Counter, counter, counter...RA has never done 1DPS to a ranged char ..

It is not only against my char (SB) - it is also against Rangers, Nightshades, Berserkers, Savages, Blademasters highly effective. Then it still is more than twice as effective as any other RA in melee-combat.

Just because it doesn't work against certain classes/types doesn't mean it was balanced. With your reasoning, Avoidance of Magic does nothing against most melee, so therefore it should be I-win versus (most) casters?

Devs saw that it was OP - and fixed this I-win crap. Deal with it.

As for:

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
Oh and Friars have no venom, stealth, DW, crit strike , ECT

I was pointing out assassins have no groupability nor ranged attacks, therefore an escape-button every 15 mins with a hefty downside isn't a big deal.

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
And once again I do not nor have I ever mained a Friar .. I care more about classes, abilities, realms , game as a whole then individual classes . Just fairness

If you cared about fairness you wouldn't even attempt to defend such an ability, so what is it ?

Sat 25 May 2019 7:48 PM by MyCatKevin

phixion wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 4:05 PM
Dakkhon wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 1:22 PM
Well after all the melee and stealthers crying over RA...you know that UNSTYLED attack that was killing them by the droves they nerfed it. Must of had friends in high places to get that done. Several other nerfs to alb it seems as well. Funny how history repeats itself.......guess we knew it would happen anyways so. I guess we will see what other balance changes are coming. Just listen for the crying lol. Keep playing your Friars folks. Because I think you will see it wasnt RA that was killing them...they just where not that good imo.

Why do you keep saying it was a Friar thing, it was Reflex Attack thing.

Watch any of Nate's videos and tell me that's acceptable. A zerker swinging twice in a fight and the rest of the damage coming from a passive ability.

Whether that passive ability be on a Friar or Zerker, it was overpowered.

Now, if Friars had stealth, do you think they would still be as underplayed as they are now? I don't... People play stealthers here to avoid the zerg, if you are willing to run out on a visible then it's your choice--I personally wouldn't bother because I know the pain outweighs the fun, for me at least.

Except it wasn't as heavily nerfed for zerks as it was for friars.

Sat 25 May 2019 7:53 PM by Dramead

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:43 PM
Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
And you are seriously not see the fact that RA only did 80% more DPS to one type of char in the game( which happens to be the type you play ) .. Melee ... thats it.. Counter, counter, counter...RA has never done 1DPS to a ranged char ..

It is not only against my char (SB) - it is also against Rangers, Nightshades, Berserkers, Savages, Blademasters highly effective. Then it still is more than twice as effective as any other RA in melee-combat.

Just because it doesn't work against certain classes/types doesn't mean it was balanced. With your reasoning, Avoidance of Magic does nothing against most melee, so therefore it should be I-win versus (most) casters?

Devs saw that it was OP - and fixed this I-win crap. Deal with it.

As for:

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
Oh and Friars have no venom, stealth, DW, crit strike , ECT

I was pointing out assassins have no groupability nor ranged attacks, therefore an escape-button every 15 mins with a hefty downside isn't a big deal.

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
And once again I do not nor have I ever mained a Friar .. I care more about classes, abilities, realms , game as a whole then individual classes . Just fairness

If you cared about fairness you wouldn't even attempt to defend such an ability, so what is it ?

Umm Not to be captain obvious here but , almost half the classes you mentions also have access to the same reflex attack RA.. Rangers well they can use a bow.. If they CHOOSE to play as melee then they fall under the same rules as other melee in the R,P,S plan..

Now most classes with access to AoM are all ready the scissors VS casters the Rock . So its helps .. Its far from an I win button.. On the flip side if that melee,tank player reaches that caster .. it normally game over in 2 to 4 hits.. On the flip side to that caster can get PD.. Same difference .. You think PD keeps a caster alive for more then a hit or two ?

Sat 25 May 2019 7:55 PM by Hejjin

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:43 PM
Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
And you are seriously not see the fact that RA only did 80% more DPS to one type of char in the game( which happens to be the type you play ) .. Melee ... thats it.. Counter, counter, counter...RA has never done 1DPS to a ranged char ..

It is not only against my char (SB) - it is also against Rangers, Nightshades, Berserkers, Savages, Blademasters highly effective. Then it still is more than twice as effective as any other RA in melee-combat.

Just because it doesn't work against certain classes/types doesn't mean it was balanced. With your reasoning, Avoidance of Magic does nothing against most melee, so therefore it should be I-win versus (most) casters?

Devs saw that it was OP - and fixed this I-win crap. Deal with it.

As for:

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
Oh and Friars have no venom, stealth, DW, crit strike , ECT

I was pointing out assassins have no groupability nor ranged attacks, therefore an escape-button every 15 mins with a hefty downside isn't a big deal.

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
And once again I do not nor have I ever mained a Friar .. I care more about classes, abilities, realms , game as a whole then individual classes . Just fairness

If you cared about fairness you wouldn't even attempt to defend such an ability, so what is it ?

Sorry it was not highly effective against BM's and Zerkers, nor savages, then again I do not recall ever encountering a savage soloing, they were always in at least small man groups.

Sat 25 May 2019 7:59 PM by Hejjin

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:43 PM
Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
And you are seriously not see the fact that RA only did 80% more DPS to one type of char in the game( which happens to be the type you play ) .. Melee ... thats it.. Counter, counter, counter...RA has never done 1DPS to a ranged char ..

It is not only against my char (SB) - it is also against Rangers, Nightshades, Berserkers, Savages, Blademasters highly effective. Then it still is more than twice as effective as any other RA in melee-combat.

Just because it doesn't work against certain classes/types doesn't mean it was balanced. With your reasoning, Avoidance of Magic does nothing against most melee, so therefore it should be I-win versus (most) casters?

Devs saw that it was OP - and fixed this I-win crap. Deal with it.

As for:

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
Oh and Friars have no venom, stealth, DW, crit strike , ECT

I was pointing out assassins have no groupability nor ranged attacks, therefore an escape-button every 15 mins with a hefty downside isn't a big deal.

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
And once again I do not nor have I ever mained a Friar .. I care more about classes, abilities, realms , game as a whole then individual classes . Just fairness

If you cared about fairness you wouldn't even attempt to defend such an ability, so what is it ?

Hmmm

In another thread you are asking for a buff to SB's by adding bludgeon to bring parity with your assassin peers, but seemingly you fail to notice that would substantially increase your dps against other non assassin classes, and yet you talk about fairness? Really??? We are obviously using vastly different definitions for that word.

Sat 25 May 2019 8:01 PM by Dramead

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:53 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:43 PM
Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
And you are seriously not see the fact that RA only did 80% more DPS to one type of char in the game( which happens to be the type you play ) .. Melee ... thats it.. Counter, counter, counter...RA has never done 1DPS to a ranged char ..

It is not only against my char (SB) - it is also against Rangers, Nightshades, Berserkers, Savages, Blademasters highly effective. Then it still is more than twice as effective as any other RA in melee-combat.

Just because it doesn't work against certain classes/types doesn't mean it was balanced. With your reasoning, Avoidance of Magic does nothing against most melee, so therefore it should be I-win versus (most) casters?

Devs saw that it was OP - and fixed this I-win crap. Deal with it.

As for:

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
Oh and Friars have no venom, stealth, DW, crit strike , ECT

I was pointing out assassins have no groupability nor ranged attacks, therefore an escape-button every 15 mins with a hefty downside isn't a big deal.

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
And once again I do not nor have I ever mained a Friar .. I care more about classes, abilities, realms , game as a whole then individual classes . Just fairness

If you cared about fairness you wouldn't even attempt to defend such an ability, so what is it ?

Umm Not to be captain obvious here but , almost half the classes you mentions also have access to the same reflex attack RA.. Rangers well they can use a bow.. If they CHOOSE to play as melee then they fall under the same rules as other melee in the R,P,S plan..

Now most classes with access to AoM are all ready the scissors VS casters the Rock . So its helps .. Its far from an I win button.. On the flip side if that melee,tank player reaches that caster .. it normally game over in 2 to 4 hits.. On the flip side to that caster can get PD.. Same difference .. You think PD keeps a caster alive for more then a hit or two ?

To try to once again put the balance in perspective .. your an rr7 SB .. 1VS1 there is no class in the game that is currently your counter .. You can roll over caster,melee,tanks, and even other stealthers ... But a few days ago 1 maybe 2 classes , Friar being one of them would have handed you your ass in 10 sec. Matter of fact you prolly would have skipped right over a rr4 or 5 Friar and killed the blue running 1000 units behind him . That alone tell me that RA for friars was working as intended .. Pure counter to assassins and most other melee...

Sun 26 May 2019 3:29 AM by Cadebrennus

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:53 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:43 PM
Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
And you are seriously not see the fact that RA only did 80% more DPS to one type of char in the game( which happens to be the type you play ) .. Melee ... thats it.. Counter, counter, counter...RA has never done 1DPS to a ranged char ..

It is not only against my char (SB) - it is also against Rangers, Nightshades, Berserkers, Savages, Blademasters highly effective. Then it still is more than twice as effective as any other RA in melee-combat.

Just because it doesn't work against certain classes/types doesn't mean it was balanced. With your reasoning, Avoidance of Magic does nothing against most melee, so therefore it should be I-win versus (most) casters?

Devs saw that it was OP - and fixed this I-win crap. Deal with it.

As for:

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
Oh and Friars have no venom, stealth, DW, crit strike , ECT

I was pointing out assassins have no groupability nor ranged attacks, therefore an escape-button every 15 mins with a hefty downside isn't a big deal.

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:30 PM
And once again I do not nor have I ever mained a Friar .. I care more about classes, abilities, realms , game as a whole then individual classes . Just fairness

If you cared about fairness you wouldn't even attempt to defend such an ability, so what is it ?

Umm Not to be captain obvious here but , almost half the classes you mentions also have access to the same reflex attack RA.. Rangers well they can use a bow.. If they CHOOSE to play as melee then they fall under the same rules as other melee in the R,P,S plan..

Now most classes with access to AoM are all ready the scissors VS casters the Rock . So its helps .. Its far from an I win button.. On the flip side if that melee,tank player reaches that caster .. it normally game over in 2 to 4 hits.. On the flip side to that caster can get PD.. Same difference .. You think PD keeps a caster alive for more then a hit or two ?

Uh yes with high PD. On live I knew a Caster who would run around TRYING to get Perfed because he maxed his PD.

Sun 26 May 2019 5:48 AM by jelzinga_EU

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:59 PM
In another thread you are asking for a buff to SB's by adding bludgeon to bring parity with your assassin peers, but seemingly you fail to notice that would substantially increase your dps against other non assassin classes, and yet you talk about fairness? Really??? We are obviously using vastly different definitions for that word.

Please read my posts thorougly:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=66738#p66738

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 6:36 PM
Bludgeon would probably overdo it, not so much for fights against INF/NS but also having a huge impact for friars, BM's, Arms, Rangers, Pallies etc. so I do not see as the proper way to tackle the problem. But the problem remains, elemental weapons is a can of worms as you say. An easier solution is changing damage-tables for assassins -melee only, e.g. make everyone the same (resistant, weak or neutral) to eachother's damage - it would have the added benefit for NS/INF to make Thrust and Pierce once again much more viable - and SB's would at least play on even grounds.

or:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=66723#p66723

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 5:01 PM
I didn't say I wanted to give SB's Bludgeon. This discussion was done months ago and gruenes_schaff convinced me that it was a bad idea. But that doesn't mean doing nothing is the better course of action. Something should be done, at least if you're interested into balanced fights between the 3 assassins. It could be instant off-evade stun in LA or offering neutral-to-all leather to all realms or something along those lines.

Now exactly where am I asking for Bludgeon recently?

edit: When reading more replies in here - I'm gonna give up this discussion. There is so much stuff said which isn't true or with which I disagree so much that it is just not worth my time. I got what I wanted (a change to Reflex Attack) - and I think it was because GM's, DEV's and Admin's saw the situation the same way as I (and others) did. That is enough for me, I do not need to convince everyone - especially not people I do not know and which appear to have a completely different image about how the game should be.

Sun 26 May 2019 7:04 AM by Hejjin

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 26 May 2019 5:48 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 7:59 PM
In another thread you are asking for a buff to SB's by adding bludgeon to bring parity with your assassin peers, but seemingly you fail to notice that would substantially increase your dps against other non assassin classes, and yet you talk about fairness? Really??? We are obviously using vastly different definitions for that word.

Please read my posts thorougly:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=66738#p66738
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 6:36 PM
Bludgeon would probably overdo it, not so much for fights against INF/NS but also having a huge impact for friars, BM's, Arms, Rangers, Pallies etc. so I do not see as the proper way to tackle the problem. But the problem remains, elemental weapons is a can of worms as you say. An easier solution is changing damage-tables for assassins -melee only, e.g. make everyone the same (resistant, weak or neutral) to eachother's damage - it would have the added benefit for NS/INF to make Thrust and Pierce once again much more viable - and SB's would at least play on even grounds.

or:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=66723#p66723
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 5:01 PM
I didn't say I wanted to give SB's Bludgeon. This discussion was done months ago and gruenes_schaff convinced me that it was a bad idea. But that doesn't mean doing nothing is the better course of action. Something should be done, at least if you're interested into balanced fights between the 3 assassins. It could be instant off-evade stun in LA or offering neutral-to-all leather to all realms or something along those lines.

Now exactly where am I asking for Bludgeon recently?

edit: When reading more replies in here - I'm gonna give up this discussion. There is so much stuff said which isn't true or with which I disagree so much that it is just not worth my time. I got what I wanted (a change to Reflex Attack) - and I think it was because GM's, DEV's and Admin's saw the situation the same way as I (and others) did. That is enough for me, I do not need to convince everyone - especially not people I do not know and which appear to have a completely different image about how the game should be.

My apologies, for some reason I thought it was you that suggested adding Bluedgeon, I have just checked and it was not, so again I am sorry for that.

Mon 27 May 2019 12:09 AM by AlanMtX

Personally i want say only a thing. Ok to balance ra but this is a balancing only 1 VS 1 fighting. Devs must introducing a best formula to calculate a good balanced modifier for multiple attacker (in example 2 vs 1 , 3vs1 , zergvs1 , etc)

Mon 27 May 2019 11:35 AM by Sepplord

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 8:01 PM
To try to once again put the balance in perspective .. your an rr7 SB .. 1VS1 there is no class in the game that is currently your counter .. You can roll over caster,melee,tanks, and even other stealthers ... But a few days ago 1 maybe 2 classes , Friar being one of them would have handed you your ass in 10 sec. Matter of fact you prolly would have skipped right over a rr4 or 5 Friar and killed the blue running 1000 units behind him . That alone tell me that RA for friars was working as intended .. Pure counter to assassins and most other melee...

Here's your (and many others) problem: you have no idea what classes absolutely destroy assassins. Friars are still very good VS assassins. Champs absolutely shit on assassins and don't even need to be similar RR. I haven't fought Thanes on my SB, but everyone i ask absolutely LOVE being attacked by assassins and take multiple bad ones at once if they get the chance to.
Fulltanks destroy assassins too, if they know what they are doing. Even without being solospec. In the few minutes of soloing on my warrior i wrecked any stealther attacking me, despite being RR4 back then with most points bound in Det/LW/tireless.

Mon 27 May 2019 11:47 AM by phixion

Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 8:01 PM
To try to once again put the balance in perspective .. your an rr7 SB .. 1VS1 there is no class in the game that is currently your counter .. You can roll over caster,melee,tanks, and even other stealthers ... But a few days ago 1 maybe 2 classes , Friar being one of them would have handed you your ass in 10 sec. Matter of fact you prolly would have skipped right over a rr4 or 5 Friar and killed the blue running 1000 units behind him . That alone tell me that RA for friars was working as intended .. Pure counter to assassins and most other melee...

Armsman
Friar
Infiltrator
Mecenary
Minstrel (Kiting)
Necromancer
Paladin
Reaver
Blademaster
Champion
Hero
Nightshade
Ranger (melee spec destroyed me until I got higher RR)
Valewalker

Mon 27 May 2019 3:24 PM by Fames

We were talking about counters to SBs, not counters to Phixion.

Mon 27 May 2019 3:51 PM by Sindralor

Back to reaver

Mon 27 May 2019 4:44 PM by Dramead

phixion wrote: ↑
Mon 27 May 2019 11:47 AM
Dramead wrote: ↑
Sat 25 May 2019 8:01 PM
To try to once again put the balance in perspective .. your an rr7 SB .. 1VS1 there is no class in the game that is currently your counter .. You can roll over caster,melee,tanks, and even other stealthers ... But a few days ago 1 maybe 2 classes , Friar being one of them would have handed you your ass in 10 sec. Matter of fact you prolly would have skipped right over a rr4 or 5 Friar and killed the blue running 1000 units behind him . That alone tell me that RA for friars was working as intended .. Pure counter to assassins and most other melee...

Armsman
Friar
Infiltrator
Mecenary
Minstrel (Kiting)
Necromancer
Paladin
Reaver
Blademaster
Champion
Hero
Nightshade
Ranger (melee spec destroyed me until I got higher RR)
Valewalker

Well I have fought you on 5 of the above mention classes . Granted your RR11 but yeah did not even get a shot off on ya.. And you have earned your RR so not trying to take that away from you .. I am sure if my RR on said classes was higher it may have gone different ..

Do not currently have that issue as I am on my 7th 50 and currently the cycle of realms has landed me in Mid.. I think I only have a class or two left to have all my fav classes.. I have fought my fair share of friars as well. And avoided my fair share .. The shear fear of the realm ability RA was enough to bring some sort of balance. Does not matter anymore .

C ya'll out there ..

Tue 28 May 2019 9:28 AM by Beren

After reading through this thread i now know, where most of the idiots play:
In Albion! And they play(ed) a Friar!
Then they came here to tell us how special they are.
And that they deserve to have a guaranteed I-win against so many classes.
Lately Friars were like BDs. Zerg them hard, even now, i say!
There can be no fairness for players, that chose a class, that was or is innately unfair.

Tue 28 May 2019 10:51 AM by Blitze

If you think a friar was unfair or overpowered, then you need to check your perspective... All rocks look overpowered when you are scissors.

Solo Friars (e.g. friars that devote their speccpoints and RA points to solo) were very good against stealthers, and specifically brutal against DWers. Sadly alot of whines came in from this large and popular community as the solo friar was a rock to their scissors.

Also it has been very sad to see was how few SBs and NSs changed their game (e.g. use a 2hnder or snare, kite & DD.) and instead choose to avoid friars on the battlefield and whine about them on the forums.

If you come from another perspective, BDs, SMs, ench, RM, Hero, Warr, Skalds, VWs, Champs, Thanes, Shamans; then you would understand that friars were a fair fight or very easy RPs.

In summary,
Super popular scissors classes complained that the underpopulated and very niche rock was too rocky for them and rock got nerfed.
Paper is like whatever, rock was always easy.
Rock is like now annoyed as it is less good at beating scissors and loses just the same to paper.

Tue 28 May 2019 1:32 PM by Sepplord

Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 10:51 AM
If you think a friar was unfair or overpowered, then you need to check your perspective... All rocks look overpowered when you are scissors.

Solo Friars (e.g. friars that devote their speccpoints and RA points to solo) were very good against stealthers, and specifically brutal against DWers. Sadly alot of whines came in from this large and popular community as the solo friar was a rock to their scissors.

Also it has been very sad to see was how few SBs and NSs changed their game (e.g. use a 2hnder or snare, kite & DD.) and instead choose to avoid friars on the battlefield and whine about them on the forums.

If you come from another perspective, BDs, SMs, ench, RM, Hero, Warr, Skalds, VWs, Champs, Thanes, Shamans; then you would understand that friars were a fair fight or very easy RPs.

In summary,
Super popular scissors classes complained that the underpopulated and very niche rock was too rocky for them and rock got nerfed.
Paper is like whatever, rock was always easy.
Rock is like now annoyed as it is less good at beating scissors and loses just the same to paper.

Sorry, but this is mostly nonsense.

Friars are still rocks to assassin-scissors. They were back then, before phoenix came and buffed them HARD.
And ironically many of the classes you listed are also rocks to assasins/stealthers without producing so many whines....guess why that is? (hint: something something they press buttons to be a rock).

People like you like to point at assassins and call them whiners, just because you gleam in joy as soon as something exists/happens that makes an assassin unhappy. It doesn't matter to you if they have a point or if it is baseless whining, all that matters is that assassin dislike something for you to embrace it.
Welp, RA got changed because it was completely over the top and instead of questioning your previous attitude you double down on your stance, because an assassin can't be right no matter what.

Also it has been very sad to see was how few SBs and NSs changed their game (e.g. use a 2hnder or snare, kite & DD.)

Yes, i can see how it is sad to you that they didn't feed you even more. Kiting a friar after going into melee with them is supereasy (cough backsnare + sidesnare cough) and suggesting 2H sounds good on paper, and would probably work against friars that are AFK and only have RA. Against friars that use all their tools and are a PITA without RA, switching to a sub-optimal equipset to reduce RA-effectiveness just lets the rest of friars kit shit all over us.

Tl;DR: friars are strong rocks, without RA. Assassins didn't whine because there is a class that is hard. There are plenty other classes that are basically impossible to beat as assassin without any whines about them. RA was a problem, not friars beating stealthers. Nothing changed about that anyways

Tue 28 May 2019 1:56 PM by Blitze

If you think Phoenix buff friars compared to stealthers I don’t think you’ve played many other servers/settings.

I’ve mentioned this before but in general (with exception of reflex attack) solo friars are in one of the poorest states here:

Pros-
We are on a better WS/dmg table
We have low level proc heal
Assassins can’t switch repoison

Cons-
1. We have no dodger (this was better for friar than assa)
2. Everyone has near to full buffs (from cheap pots)
3. WS/con poison is here instead of str/con
4. Vanish on both SB and NS
5. Everyone has perma-sprint.
6. No RR5 ability (and friars was a good one)

Tue 28 May 2019 2:18 PM by Sepplord

Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 1:56 PM
If you think Phoenix buff friars compared to stealthers I don’t think you’ve played many other servers/settings.
i am comparing it to SI/PRE-NF, why would the settings of other freeshards be of relevance?

I’ve mentioned this before but in general (with exception of reflex attack) solo friars are in one of the poorest states here:

Pros-
We are on a better WS/dmg table
We have low level proc heal
Assassins can’t switch repoison
evade reduction from DW cut in half (or set to the amount of a much later patchlevel)
no buffbots, stronger selfbuffs than charges

Cons-
1. We have no dodger (this was better for friar than assa) how was this better for friars? friars got cut in half back then. Not saying you are wrong, just that with my current information it doesn't seem logical. Evade was always very good VS 2h and mediocre VS dualwielders
2. Everyone has near to full buffs (from cheap pots) compared to everyone being buffbotted, that's a PRO for friar
3. WS/con poison is here instead of str/con
4. Vanish on both SB and NS doesn't impact the course of the fight, doesn't make friars easier targets to beat...mute point
5. Everyone has perma-sprint.
6. No RR5 ability (and friars was a good one)

Tue 28 May 2019 2:42 PM by Beren

Friars were never meant to be assassin-hunters.
Only in Blitze's mind the class is meant to be the Rock for the Assassin-scissors.
The visible class purposefully designed by Mythic to be also good at hunting stealthers is Reaver.

Tue 28 May 2019 2:49 PM by niromu

Beren wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 2:42 PM
Friars were never meant to be assassin-hunters.
Only in Blitze's mind the class is meant to be the Rock for the Assassin-scissors.
The visible class purposefully designed by Mythic to be also good at hunting stealthers is Reaver.

What were Friars supposed to be then? Sub-Par healer for groups? Sub-Par peeler for groups? Melee Train? 0 Solo tools?

Sounds about right....

There is a reason Friars were completely reworked on Live... They were garbage once Dodger was removed and RA was nerfed.

I know it's easier to say "Good Riddance" to Friars receiving this nerf but, they literally just gutted a class without any signs of change for it in the near future.

At the end of the day, it's fine. I am still able to kill people a few RRs below me as long as they are by themselves and they don't really know how to play. =D

Tue 28 May 2019 2:58 PM by Sepplord

niromu wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 2:49 PM
Beren wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 2:42 PM
Friars were never meant to be assassin-hunters.
Only in Blitze's mind the class is meant to be the Rock for the Assassin-scissors.
The visible class purposefully designed by Mythic to be also good at hunting stealthers is Reaver.

What were Friars supposed to be then? Sub-Par healer for groups? Sub-Par peeler for groups? Melee Train? 0 Solo tools?

Sounds about right....

There is a reason Friars were completely reworked on Live... They were garbage once Dodger was removed and RA was nerfed.

I know it's easier to say "Good Riddance" to Friars receiving this nerf but, they literally just gutted a class without any signs of change for it in the near future.

At the end of the day, it's fine. I am still able to kill people a few RRs below me as long as they are by themselves and they don't really know how to play. =D

what are you talking about? no signs of change?
friar is THE most often buffed/changed class on this server...i wonder what amount of buffs you need to think: they seem to care, they will make it work somehow instead of keeping the whining

Tue 28 May 2019 2:59 PM by niromu

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 2:58 PM
niromu wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 2:49 PM
Beren wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 2:42 PM
Friars were never meant to be assassin-hunters.
Only in Blitze's mind the class is meant to be the Rock for the Assassin-scissors.
The visible class purposefully designed by Mythic to be also good at hunting stealthers is Reaver.

What were Friars supposed to be then? Sub-Par healer for groups? Sub-Par peeler for groups? Melee Train? 0 Solo tools?

Sounds about right....

There is a reason Friars were completely reworked on Live... They were garbage once Dodger was removed and RA was nerfed.

I know it's easier to say "Good Riddance" to Friars receiving this nerf but, they literally just gutted a class without any signs of change for it in the near future.

At the end of the day, it's fine. I am still able to kill people a few RRs below me as long as they are by themselves and they don't really know how to play. =D

what are you talking about? no signs of change?
friar is THE most often buffed/changed class on this server...i wonder what amount of buffs you need to think: they seem to care, they will make it work somehow instead of keeping the whining

Cool.

Tue 28 May 2019 3:40 PM by Blitze

I thought that in solo pvp it has generally been: casters = paper, tanks = rocks and assassins = scissors.

Obviously some hybrids (e.g. reavers/skalds/VWs) are capable of killing casters and stealthers and tanks.

Its just that in all the iterations of DAoC i've played, if a friar chooses to spec solo, his best matchup is against a stealther and whether Mythic "meant" this or not is irrelevant...[There were some dark days of friars before the huge buff they got].

This means that nowadays, people who play a solo friar expect to excel in stealth killing, just like Savages expect to deal huge DPS in 8v8.

However, i do believe that the Devs will continue to look for ways to further tweak the friar, i just hope that the version of a friar they create is a fun class to play in all forms of rvr including solo.

Tue 28 May 2019 4:14 PM by Turano

Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 3:40 PM
I thought that in solo pvp it has generally been: casters = paper, tanks = rocks and assassins = scissors..

Please tell spiritmasters, bonedancers and necromancers that they are supposed to be paper

There is no rock paper scissors in daoc and there never has been such a thing
Every class can kill another under the right circumstances
PvP regardless of the game is never predetermined that way and it never can be. There are no hard counters to anything, it always depends on the situation.
Some have disadvantages over one group while being more likely to win versus others, but you still have to play to see who will win.

What you guys are crying about is that you are no longer the hard counter against every dual wielding class in the game

Tue 28 May 2019 4:29 PM by phixion

Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 10:51 AM
If you think a friar was unfair or overpowered, then you need to check your perspective... All rocks look overpowered when you are scissors.

Solo Friars (e.g. friars that devote their speccpoints and RA points to solo) were very good against stealthers, and specifically brutal against DWers. Sadly alot of whines came in from this large and popular community as the solo friar was a rock to their scissors.

Also it has been very sad to see was how few SBs and NSs changed their game (e.g. use a 2hnder or snare, kite & DD.) and instead choose to avoid friars on the battlefield and whine about them on the forums.

If you come from another perspective, BDs, SMs, ench, RM, Hero, Warr, Skalds, VWs, Champs, Thanes, Shamans; then you would understand that friars were a fair fight or very easy RPs.

In summary,
Super popular scissors classes complained that the underpopulated and very niche rock was too rocky for them and rock got nerfed.
Paper is like whatever, rock was always easy.
Rock is like now annoyed as it is less good at beating scissors and loses just the same to paper.

Niche rock was only niche because he didn't have stealth.

How many of those Friars were made after seeing how good RA was? It's no surprise there was a boom in numbers shortly after everyone hit RvR.

Tue 28 May 2019 5:59 PM by niromu

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 4:14 PM
Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 3:40 PM
I thought that in solo pvp it has generally been: casters = paper, tanks = rocks and assassins = scissors..
Please tell spiritmasters, bonedancers and necromancers that they are supposed to be paper

There is no rock paper scissors in daoc and there never has been such a thing
Every class can kill another under the right circumstances
PvP regardless of the game is never predetermined that way and it never can be. There are no hard counters to anything, it always depends on the situation.
Some have disadvantages over one group while being more likely to win versus others, but you still have to play to see who will win.

What you guys are crying about is that you are no longer the hard counter against every dual wielding class in the game

I think it's less of a "I can't fight a dual wielder anymore" and more of a "I can't really fight anything at the same level as me anymore."

Like Kaze said, I'm sure they will do something to rework the class eventually to bring it back up to a playable level.

In the meantime, everyone enjoy the donated RPs as us Friar mains continue to grind.

Tue 28 May 2019 6:03 PM by Hejjin

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 4:14 PM
Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 3:40 PM
I thought that in solo pvp it has generally been: casters = paper, tanks = rocks and assassins = scissors..
Please tell spiritmasters, bonedancers and necromancers that they are supposed to be paper

There is no rock paper scissors in daoc and there never has been such a thing
Every class can kill another under the right circumstances
PvP regardless of the game is never predetermined that way and it never can be. There are no hard counters to anything, it always depends on the situation.
Some have disadvantages over one group while being more likely to win versus others, but you still have to play to see who will win.

What you guys are crying about is that you are no longer the hard counter against every dual wielding class in the game

We were a hard counter to assassins and rangers, not to BM's/Zerks and I presume Mercs, but I never actually fought one when I was using RA.

I expected it to be toned down, I actually thought they would have normalised damage to that of a faster staff, and removed its ability to proc when stunned, I did not expect it to reworked in such a way that a Friar that wanted to maximise the potential of RA had to swap to a much faster staff.

Shrug, the change was made, so those of us that were playing Friars way before it became a FOTM class will just rework our builds and get on with playing.

Tue 28 May 2019 6:08 PM by niromu

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 6:03 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 4:14 PM
Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 3:40 PM
I thought that in solo pvp it has generally been: casters = paper, tanks = rocks and assassins = scissors..
Please tell spiritmasters, bonedancers and necromancers that they are supposed to be paper

There is no rock paper scissors in daoc and there never has been such a thing
Every class can kill another under the right circumstances
PvP regardless of the game is never predetermined that way and it never can be. There are no hard counters to anything, it always depends on the situation.
Some have disadvantages over one group while being more likely to win versus others, but you still have to play to see who will win.

What you guys are crying about is that you are no longer the hard counter against every dual wielding class in the game
We were a hard counter to assassins and rangers, not to BM's/Zerks and I presume Mercs, but I never actually fought one when I was using RA.

I expected it to be toned down, I actually thought they would have normalised damage to that of a faster staff, and removed its ability to proc when stunned, I did not expect it to reworked in such a way that a Friar that wanted to maximise the potential of RA had to swap to a much faster staff.

Shrug, the change was made, so those of us that were playing Friars way before it became a FOTM class will just rework our builds and get on with playing.

Tue 28 May 2019 6:10 PM by Hejjin

phixion wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 4:29 PM
Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 10:51 AM
If you think a friar was unfair or overpowered, then you need to check your perspective... All rocks look overpowered when you are scissors.

Solo Friars (e.g. friars that devote their speccpoints and RA points to solo) were very good against stealthers, and specifically brutal against DWers. Sadly alot of whines came in from this large and popular community as the solo friar was a rock to their scissors.

Also it has been very sad to see was how few SBs and NSs changed their game (e.g. use a 2hnder or snare, kite & DD.) and instead choose to avoid friars on the battlefield and whine about them on the forums.

If you come from another perspective, BDs, SMs, ench, RM, Hero, Warr, Skalds, VWs, Champs, Thanes, Shamans; then you would understand that friars were a fair fight or very easy RPs.

In summary,
Super popular scissors classes complained that the underpopulated and very niche rock was too rocky for them and rock got nerfed.
Paper is like whatever, rock was always easy.
Rock is like now annoyed as it is less good at beating scissors and loses just the same to paper.

Niche rock was only niche because he didn't have stealth.

How many of those Friars were made after seeing how good RA was? It's no surprise there was a boom in numbers shortly after everyone hit RvR.

...and yet that boom in numbers only resulted in Friar numbers having parity, on average, with the numbers of assassins in each realm. On a regular basis during the month that friar's became popular, their numbers were below that of either Infs, or NS's during the times that I play.

Tue 28 May 2019 6:19 PM by Hejjin

niromu wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 5:59 PM
I think it's less of a "I can't fight a dual wielder anymore" and more of a "I can't really fight anything at the same level as me anymore."
snip...

That is not accurate, since the RA change, I have beaten assassins of similar RR to myself, I have also fought and won solo fights against other solos of similar or higher RR to myself, I have also had assassins vanish from 1 v 1 fights they were losing. I have also been absolutely owned by a pair of RR3.5ish NS's in Molvik despite using the fastest staff possible to make the most effective use of RA.

Tue 28 May 2019 7:15 PM by Cadebrennus

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 4:14 PM
Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 3:40 PM
I thought that in solo pvp it has generally been: casters = paper, tanks = rocks and assassins = scissors..
Please tell spiritmasters, bonedancers and necromancers that they are supposed to be paper

There is no rock paper scissors in daoc and there never has been such a thing
Every class can kill another under the right circumstances
PvP regardless of the game is never predetermined that way and it never can be. There are no hard counters to anything, it always depends on the situation.
Some have disadvantages over one group while being more likely to win versus others, but you still have to play to see who will win.

What you guys are crying about is that you are no longer the hard counter against every dual wielding class in the game

"First, I needed justification that the rock, paper, scissor mechanic is still the best way to go for the game and this needed to be based on enjoyable gameplay..." - Mark Jacobs

https://camelotunchained.com/v3/foundational-principle-6-rock-paper-scissors-natch/

Tue 28 May 2019 7:31 PM by phixion

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 6:10 PM
...and yet that boom in numbers only resulted in Friar numbers having parity, on average, with the numbers of assassins in each realm. On a regular basis during the month that friar's became popular, their numbers were below that of either Infs, or NS's during the times that I play.

Stealth.

Tue 28 May 2019 8:27 PM by Hejjin

phixion wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 7:31 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 6:10 PM
...and yet that boom in numbers only resulted in Friar numbers having parity, on average, with the numbers of assassins in each realm. On a regular basis during the month that friar's became popular, their numbers were below that of either Infs, or NS's during the times that I play.

Stealth.

If it was only stealth, the numbers of Hunters and Scouts would be much higher. I believe it more accurate to state a combination of stealth and how strong the assassin, and to a lesser extent, ranger classes are on here.

Tue 28 May 2019 9:29 PM by Luluko

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 8:27 PM
phixion wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 7:31 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 6:10 PM
...and yet that boom in numbers only resulted in Friar numbers having parity, on average, with the numbers of assassins in each realm. On a regular basis during the month that friar's became popular, their numbers were below that of either Infs, or NS's during the times that I play.

Stealth.

If it was only stealth, the numbers of Hunters and Scouts would be much higher. I believe it more accurate to state a combination of stealth and how strong the assassin, and to a lesser extent, ranger classes are on here.

archers are just crap and cant really kill anything solo without ip3+ up

just because something else is crap doesnt mean something else is too good.

Also I am loving all the tears of the fotm friars which wanted nice fights and only got zerged/vanished on. Guess back to your infis and have a little challenge now.

Tue 28 May 2019 11:04 PM by Beren

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 7:15 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 4:14 PM
Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 3:40 PM
I thought that in solo pvp it has generally been: casters = paper, tanks = rocks and assassins = scissors..
Please tell spiritmasters, bonedancers and necromancers that they are supposed to be paper

There is no rock paper scissors in daoc and there never has been such a thing
Every class can kill another under the right circumstances
PvP regardless of the game is never predetermined that way and it never can be. There are no hard counters to anything, it always depends on the situation.
Some have disadvantages over one group while being more likely to win versus others, but you still have to play to see who will win.

What you guys are crying about is that you are no longer the hard counter against every dual wielding class in the game

"First, I needed justification that the rock, paper, scissor mechanic is still the best way to go for the game and this needed to be based on enjoyable gameplay..." - Mark Jacobs

https://camelotunchained.com/v3/foundational-principle-6-rock-paper-scissors-natch/

Thank you, Drunkenranger. Very interesting read!

However friars were never meant to be the counter to assassins.
I can understand, that they assumed that role, and they still should be capable to. What Blitze said in his last post also totally makes sense to me,
but the RA in the former Shape was just wrong. It's like SBs and Zerks defending the Double-Frost-Bug after Patch 1.64.

Tue 28 May 2019 11:07 PM by Cadebrennus

Beren wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 11:04 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 7:15 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 4:14 PM
Please tell spiritmasters, bonedancers and necromancers that they are supposed to be paper

There is no rock paper scissors in daoc and there never has been such a thing
Every class can kill another under the right circumstances
PvP regardless of the game is never predetermined that way and it never can be. There are no hard counters to anything, it always depends on the situation.
Some have disadvantages over one group while being more likely to win versus others, but you still have to play to see who will win.

What you guys are crying about is that you are no longer the hard counter against every dual wielding class in the game

"First, I needed justification that the rock, paper, scissor mechanic is still the best way to go for the game and this needed to be based on enjoyable gameplay..." - Mark Jacobs

https://camelotunchained.com/v3/foundational-principle-6-rock-paper-scissors-natch/

Thank you, Drunkenranger. Very interesting read!

However friars were never meant to be the counter to assassins.
I can understand, that they assumed that role, and they still should be capable to. What Blitze said in his last post also totally makes sense to me,
but the RA in the former Shape was just wrong. It's like SBs and Zerks defending the Double-Frost-Bug after Patch 1.64.

I'm taking no side here. What I posted was to inform the severely uninformed. But yes, DAOC classes were originally designed with a "rock-paper-scissors" mentality.

Wed 29 May 2019 12:28 AM by merfp27

A little off topic, but out of curiosity, do friars get dex as a rising stat here or is it still piety, con, str?

Wed 29 May 2019 1:02 AM by gotwqqd

Beren wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 11:04 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 7:15 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 4:14 PM
Please tell spiritmasters, bonedancers and necromancers that they are supposed to be paper

There is no rock paper scissors in daoc and there never has been such a thing
Every class can kill another under the right circumstances
PvP regardless of the game is never predetermined that way and it never can be. There are no hard counters to anything, it always depends on the situation.
Some have disadvantages over one group while being more likely to win versus others, but you still have to play to see who will win.

What you guys are crying about is that you are no longer the hard counter against every dual wielding class in the game

"First, I needed justification that the rock, paper, scissor mechanic is still the best way to go for the game and this needed to be based on enjoyable gameplay..." - Mark Jacobs

https://camelotunchained.com/v3/foundational-principle-6-rock-paper-scissors-natch/

Thank you, Drunkenranger. Very interesting read!

However friars were never meant to be the counter to assassins.
I can understand, that they assumed that role, and they still should be capable to. What Blitze said in his last post also totally makes sense to me,
but the RA in the former Shape was just wrong. It's like SBs and Zerks defending the Double-Frost-Bug after Patch 1.64.

What was this DF bug?

Wed 29 May 2019 7:54 AM by Hejjin

Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 9:29 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 8:27 PM
phixion wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 7:31 PM
Stealth.

If it was only stealth, the numbers of Hunters and Scouts would be much higher. I believe it more accurate to state a combination of stealth and how strong the assassin, and to a lesser extent, ranger classes are on here.

archers are just crap and cant really kill anything solo without ip3+ up

just because something else is crap doesnt mean something else is too good.

Also I am loving all the tears of the fotm friars which wanted nice fights and only got zerged/vanished on. Guess back to your infis and have a little challenge now.

I realise that, I was just pointing out that the simplistic answer of stealth was not the only reason people were playing those classes, I thought I had made that point abundantly clear, but obviously not.

So I am FOTM Friar? I was RR6.2 before I even swapped to RA, in the month where RA was dominating I hardly RvR'd on my Friar, I used RA for farming ROG's, I went from RR6.2 to RR6.4 and almost all of that was on keep defences / takes. Yes a number of Friars have gone to assassin classes, the acceptable flavour of the server group of classes. As for challenge, the list of classes that assassins struggle against is shorter than that of Friars, as was the case pre-RA change.

In regards to RA, when the notorious video was posted I pointed out the issues that I had with RA, so it is not as if I blindly believed there were zero problems with it, I just did not expect them to address the issue by forcing those that stay with RA to use much faster staves to maximise RA's potential.

Wed 29 May 2019 7:54 AM by Hejjin

merfp27 wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 12:28 AM
A little off topic, but out of curiosity, do friars get dex as a rising stat here or is it still piety, con, str?

Strength

Wed 29 May 2019 8:24 AM by Luluko

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 7:54 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 9:29 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 8:27 PM
If it was only stealth, the numbers of Hunters and Scouts would be much higher. I believe it more accurate to state a combination of stealth and how strong the assassin, and to a lesser extent, ranger classes are on here.

archers are just crap and cant really kill anything solo without ip3+ up

just because something else is crap doesnt mean something else is too good.

Also I am loving all the tears of the fotm friars which wanted nice fights and only got zerged/vanished on. Guess back to your infis and have a little challenge now.
I realise that, I was just pointing out that the simplistic answer of stealth was not the only reason people were playing those classes, I thought I had made that point abundantly clear, but obviously not.

So I am FOTM Friar? I was RR6.2 before I even swapped to RA, in the month where RA was dominating I hardly RvR'd on my Friar, I used RA for farming ROG's, I went from RR6.2 to RR6.4 and almost all of that was on keep defences / takes. Yes a number of Friars have gone to assassin classes, the acceptable flavour of the server group of classes. As for challenge, the list of classes that assassins struggle against is shorter than that of Friars, as was the case pre-RA change.

In regards to RA, when the notorious video was posted I pointed out the issues that I had with RA, so it is not as if I blindly believed there were zero problems with it, I just did not expect them to address the issue by forcing those that stay with RA to use much faster staves to maximise RA's potential.

I wasnt especially talking to you when I mentioned fotm friars. Also assassins struggle against many classes but the good ones can win vs some of those. Friar didnt struggle at all vs them they are free rps if they didnt run and they prolly still are now. If you put the free points into st/ip/purge and just use the selfhaste you will woop their asses, you just cant kill 3+ at the same time anymore.

Wed 29 May 2019 9:03 AM by Hejjin

Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 8:24 AM
I wasnt especially talking to you when I mentioned fotm friars. Also assassins struggle against many classes but the good ones can win vs some of those. Friar didnt struggle at all vs them they are free rps if they didnt run and they prolly still are now.

In a lot of cases it is simply not possible to run.

Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 8:24 AM
If you put the free points into st/ip/purge and just use the selfhaste you will woop their asses, you just cant kill 3+ at the same time anymore.

I have run a ST/IP/Purge build, it was not particularly effective solo, as it only stuns for 2 out of every 5 seconds, allowing all but the clueless, or snared, to move out of the range of the ST stun. As a Friar my options to snare are limited to side and back style, getting either of them off against an assassin that jumps you is easier said than done, unless you rely on the low level 3 second evade stun, but then you have to switch to, or be using, a staff that is less than 4.5 spd, getting a snare off during the ST was even more of an issue due to its 2 second stun duration. Against assassins my previous build of Aug Dex, MoPain, MoParry and IP was far more effective. As for your point about killing 3+ assassins, that would only occur against the absolutely clueless assassins, who not only did not try to open with PA, but also failed to run away or vanish if RNG was against them, because contrary to what some assassins tried to portray, RA was RNG, there were no guarantees. Two assassins working together regularly killed RA5 Friars with ease, but it did require them to be capable of thinking and adapting their tactics, and not just mindlessly playing their assassins as if they were shadowzerkers.

If DAoC was a game where you could have one spec for PvE and another for PvP, RA would be my PvE farming spec, as it is still good for that if I use a fast staff with an ablative proc.

This is the result of testing with a 3.5 spd staff in PvE against mobs that are yellow and orange to 50 :
Staff 3.5 v Pitch Skeleton
Totals
My Attacks : 357
Enemy Attacks : 1147
My Hits : 301
Enemy Hits : 362
My Miss : 52
Enemy Miss : 88
My Parries : 300
Enemy Parries : 0
My Evades : 397
Enemy Evades : 0
Possible RA : 750
Actual RA : 357
RA from Parries : 114 of 300
RA from Misses : 47 of 88
RA from Hits : 196 of 362
Damage : 57910
Average per RA : 162.21

Wed 29 May 2019 11:34 AM by niromu

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 9:03 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 8:24 AM
I wasnt especially talking to you when I mentioned fotm friars. Also assassins struggle against many classes but the good ones can win vs some of those. Friar didnt struggle at all vs them they are free rps if they didnt run and they prolly still are now.
In a lot of cases it is simply not possible to run.

Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 8:24 AM
If you put the free points into st/ip/purge and just use the selfhaste you will woop their asses, you just cant kill 3+ at the same time anymore.
I have run a ST/IP/Purge build, it was not particularly effective solo, as it only stuns for 2 out of every 5 seconds, allowing all but the clueless, or snared, to move out of the range of the ST stun. As a Friar my options to snare are limited to side and back style, getting either of them off against an assassin that jumps you is easier said than done, unless you rely on the low level 3 second evade stun, but then you have to switch to, or be using, a staff that is less than 4.5 spd, getting a snare off during the ST was even more of an issue due to its 2 second stun duration. Against assassins my previous build of Aug Dex, MoPain, MoParry and IP was far more effective. As for your point about killing 3+ assassins, that would only occur against the absolutely clueless assassins, who not only did not try to open with PA, but also failed to run away or vanish if RNG was against them, because contrary to what some assassins tried to portray, RA was RNG, there were no guarantees. Two assassins working together regularly killed RA5 Friars with ease, but it did require them to be capable of thinking and adapting their tactics, and not just mindlessly playing their assassins as if they were shadowzerkers.

If DAoC was a game where you could have one spec for PvE and another for PvP, RA would be my PvE farming spec, as it is still good for that if I use a fast staff with an ablative proc.

This is the result of testing with a 3.5 spd staff in PvE against mobs that are yellow and orange to 50 :
Staff 3.5 v Pitch Skeleton
Totals
My Attacks : 357
Enemy Attacks : 1147
My Hits : 301
Enemy Hits : 362
My Miss : 52
Enemy Miss : 88
My Parries : 300
Enemy Parries : 0
My Evades : 397
Enemy Evades : 0
Possible RA : 750
Actual RA : 357
RA from Parries : 114 of 300
RA from Misses : 47 of 88
RA from Hits : 196 of 362
Damage : 57910
Average per RA : 162.21

Where did you get a 3.5 ablative staff?

Wed 29 May 2019 12:49 PM by Hejjin

niromu wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 11:34 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 9:03 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 8:24 AM
I wasnt especially talking to you when I mentioned fotm friars. Also assassins struggle against many classes but the good ones can win vs some of those. Friar didnt struggle at all vs them they are free rps if they didnt run and they prolly still are now.
In a lot of cases it is simply not possible to run.

Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 8:24 AM
If you put the free points into st/ip/purge and just use the selfhaste you will woop their asses, you just cant kill 3+ at the same time anymore.
I have run a ST/IP/Purge build, it was not particularly effective solo, as it only stuns for 2 out of every 5 seconds, allowing all but the clueless, or snared, to move out of the range of the ST stun. As a Friar my options to snare are limited to side and back style, getting either of them off against an assassin that jumps you is easier said than done, unless you rely on the low level 3 second evade stun, but then you have to switch to, or be using, a staff that is less than 4.5 spd, getting a snare off during the ST was even more of an issue due to its 2 second stun duration. Against assassins my previous build of Aug Dex, MoPain, MoParry and IP was far more effective. As for your point about killing 3+ assassins, that would only occur against the absolutely clueless assassins, who not only did not try to open with PA, but also failed to run away or vanish if RNG was against them, because contrary to what some assassins tried to portray, RA was RNG, there were no guarantees. Two assassins working together regularly killed RA5 Friars with ease, but it did require them to be capable of thinking and adapting their tactics, and not just mindlessly playing their assassins as if they were shadowzerkers.

If DAoC was a game where you could have one spec for PvE and another for PvP, RA would be my PvE farming spec, as it is still good for that if I use a fast staff with an ablative proc.

This is the result of testing with a 3.5 spd staff in PvE against mobs that are yellow and orange to 50 :
Staff 3.5 v Pitch Skeleton
Totals
My Attacks : 357
Enemy Attacks : 1147
My Hits : 301
Enemy Hits : 362
My Miss : 52
Enemy Miss : 88
My Parries : 300
Enemy Parries : 0
My Evades : 397
Enemy Evades : 0
Possible RA : 750
Actual RA : 357
RA from Parries : 114 of 300
RA from Misses : 47 of 88
RA from Hits : 196 of 362
Damage : 57910
Average per RA : 162.21

Where did you get a 3.5 ablative staff?

I didn't, that was with Destiny's Bubble Breaker from Sidi. I have done most of my farming with a crafted 3.0 with ablative proc. I made a suggestion for them to add a crafted 3.5 staff so that we can put own choice of stats and procs on them. Using Destiny's requires me to redo my template and change 2 items due to the statt changes, given that I much prefer the ablative, I would much prefer if they just let us craft one.

Wed 29 May 2019 12:52 PM by Sepplord

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 9:03 AM
I have run a ST/IP/Purge build, it was not particularly effective solo, as it only stuns for 2 out of every 5 seconds, allowing all but the clueless, or snared, to move out of the range of the ST stun. As a Friar my options to snare are limited to side and back style, getting either of them off against an assassin that jumps you is easier said than done, unless you rely on the low level 3 second evade stun, but then you have to switch to, or be using, a staff that is less than 4.5 spd, getting a snare off during the ST was even more of an issue due to its 2 second stun duration. Against assassins my previous build of Aug Dex, MoPain, MoParry and IP was far more effective.

Static resets stuntimers too, so if you utilse your evadestun before using ST, it will allow another application of the evadestun.
Snaring a target that tries to run out of your ST should be possible as you have side AND backsnare, just queue them both, one will work even if you try to stand in front it won't happen if the target is trying to get out of the static. For 5points thats incredibly strong. If everony could get it it would be on the musthave list directly beside tireless and LW.

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 6:03 PM
I expected it to be toned down, I actually thought they would have normalised damage to that of a faster staff, and removed its ability to proc when stunned, I did not expect it to reworked in such a way that a Friar that wanted to maximise the potential of RA had to swap to a much faster staff.

Could you explain how new RA incentives faster staffs? As i understood the change staffspeed influences proccrate, but since dmg wasn't normalize a slower staff would procc less but for more damage. The whole point was to normalize the effectiveness accross different staffspeeds and NOT force people into a psecific staffspeed to get the best effects like it was before with a slow staff (well, and to nerf it because it was too strong, i am not claiming it wasn't nerfed, it was)

Wed 29 May 2019 1:50 PM by Luluko

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 9:03 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 8:24 AM
I wasnt especially talking to you when I mentioned fotm friars. Also assassins struggle against many classes but the good ones can win vs some of those. Friar didnt struggle at all vs them they are free rps if they didnt run and they prolly still are now.
In a lot of cases it is simply not possible to run.

Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 8:24 AM
If you put the free points into st/ip/purge and just use the selfhaste you will woop their asses, you just cant kill 3+ at the same time anymore.
I have run a ST/IP/Purge build, it was not particularly effective solo, as it only stuns for 2 out of every 5 seconds, allowing all but the clueless, or snared, to move out of the range of the ST stun. As a Friar my options to snare are limited to side and back style, getting either of them off against an assassin that jumps you is easier said than done, unless you rely on the low level 3 second evade stun, but then you have to switch to, or be using, a staff that is less than 4.5 spd, getting a snare off during the ST was even more of an issue due to its 2 second stun duration. Against assassins my previous build of Aug Dex, MoPain, MoParry and IP was far more effective. As for your point about killing 3+ assassins, that would only occur against the absolutely clueless assassins, who not only did not try to open with PA, but also failed to run away or vanish if RNG was against them, because contrary to what some assassins tried to portray, RA was RNG, there were no guarantees. Two assassins working together regularly killed RA5 Friars with ease, but it did require them to be capable of thinking and adapting their tactics, and not just mindlessly playing their assassins as if they were shadowzerkers.

If DAoC was a game where you could have one spec for PvE and another for PvP, RA would be my PvE farming spec, as it is still good for that if I use a fast staff with an ablative proc.

This is the result of testing with a 3.5 spd staff in PvE against mobs that are yellow and orange to 50 :
Staff 3.5 v Pitch Skeleton
Totals
My Attacks : 357
Enemy Attacks : 1147
My Hits : 301
Enemy Hits : 362
My Miss : 52
Enemy Miss : 88
My Parries : 300
Enemy Parries : 0
My Evades : 397
Enemy Evades : 0
Possible RA : 750
Actual RA : 357
RA from Parries : 114 of 300
RA from Misses : 47 of 88
RA from Hits : 196 of 362
Damage : 57910
Average per RA : 162.21

well seems like friars which didnt have a weaponless temp can retemp then, the same could be said about all stealthers since the charge nerf if you wanted to save inventory space and build them into the temp you can also use st to heal up again and its not that sb stealthers dish out that much damage against a class which max super evade and almost the absorb of a plate wearer and can also specc in parry

friars are still in a good spot vs stealthers not in pve tho and never were great vs casters

Wed 29 May 2019 1:57 PM by Hejjin

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 12:52 PM
Static resets stuntimers too, so if you utilse your evadestun before using ST, it will allow another application of the evadestun.
Snaring a target that tries to run out of your ST should be possible as you have side AND backsnare, just queue them both, one will work even if you try to stand in front it won't happen if the target is trying to get out of the static. For 5points thats incredibly strong. If everony could get it it would be on the musthave list directly beside tireless and LW.

I did state I tried it, rather extensively, I do know how to queue up attacks ;-).

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 12:52 PM
Could you explain how new RA incentives faster staffs? As i understood the change staffspeed influences proccrate, but since dmg wasn't normalize a slower staff would procc less but for more damage. The whole point was to normalize the effectiveness accross different staffspeeds and NOT force people into a psecific staffspeed to get the best effects like it was before with a slow staff (well, and to nerf it because it was too strong, i am not claiming it wasn't nerfed, it was)

I said maximise the potential, in other words how often it procs, that is not just the damage, it is also the spell proc on the staff, so a faster staff RA procs more, but the damage is lower, but, in my case, it has a much better chance of proccing ablative to help absorb sme damage. As I said to another Friar earlier today, I am still using my Brazen Stout Defender in RvR as it procs for less, but does substantially more damage per hit. In PvE farming, a faster staff with an ablative proc is much better than a slower staff.

Wed 29 May 2019 2:11 PM by Hejjin

Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 1:50 PM
well seems like friars which didnt have a weaponless temp can retemp then, the same could be said about all stealthers since the charge nerf if you wanted to save inventory space and build them into the temp you can also use st to heal up again.

Please just stop with the theory-crafting. ST stuns for 2 seconds out of every 5. If the assassin stays within the ST then no, you cannot just heal up in that time as you would need at least 2 seconds before you can cast your first heal, the casting time of which is over 2 seconds. Do the math.... If the assassin moves out of the field, then sure you can start to heal up, but most of the assassins then take that as an opportunity to run away and stealth without having to waste a vanish, that then gives them an opportunity to re-engage when they know that your ST and probably Purge are on cool-down...

Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 1:50 PM
and its not that sb stealthers dish out that much damage against a class which max super evade and almost the absorb of a plate wearer and can also specc in parry

friars are still in a good spot vs stealthers not in pve tho and never were great vs casters

All the assassins I fight tend to have rather good evade ;-). I am not claiming that Friars are now poor against assassins, I still like my Friar and think they are viable.

Wed 29 May 2019 2:25 PM by niromu

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 12:49 PM
niromu wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 11:34 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 9:03 AM
In a lot of cases it is simply not possible to run.

I have run a ST/IP/Purge build, it was not particularly effective solo, as it only stuns for 2 out of every 5 seconds, allowing all but the clueless, or snared, to move out of the range of the ST stun. As a Friar my options to snare are limited to side and back style, getting either of them off against an assassin that jumps you is easier said than done, unless you rely on the low level 3 second evade stun, but then you have to switch to, or be using, a staff that is less than 4.5 spd, getting a snare off during the ST was even more of an issue due to its 2 second stun duration. Against assassins my previous build of Aug Dex, MoPain, MoParry and IP was far more effective. As for your point about killing 3+ assassins, that would only occur against the absolutely clueless assassins, who not only did not try to open with PA, but also failed to run away or vanish if RNG was against them, because contrary to what some assassins tried to portray, RA was RNG, there were no guarantees. Two assassins working together regularly killed RA5 Friars with ease, but it did require them to be capable of thinking and adapting their tactics, and not just mindlessly playing their assassins as if they were shadowzerkers.

If DAoC was a game where you could have one spec for PvE and another for PvP, RA would be my PvE farming spec, as it is still good for that if I use a fast staff with an ablative proc.

This is the result of testing with a 3.5 spd staff in PvE against mobs that are yellow and orange to 50 :
Staff 3.5 v Pitch Skeleton
Totals
My Attacks : 357
Enemy Attacks : 1147
My Hits : 301
Enemy Hits : 362
My Miss : 52
Enemy Miss : 88
My Parries : 300
Enemy Parries : 0
My Evades : 397
Enemy Evades : 0
Possible RA : 750
Actual RA : 357
RA from Parries : 114 of 300
RA from Misses : 47 of 88
RA from Hits : 196 of 362
Damage : 57910
Average per RA : 162.21

Where did you get a 3.5 ablative staff?
I didn't, that was with Destiny's Bubble Breaker from Sidi. I have done most of my farming with a crafted 3.0 with ablative proc. I made a suggestion for them to add a crafted 3.5 staff so that we can put own choice of stats and procs on them. Using Destiny's requires me to redo my template and change 2 items due to the statt changes, given that I much prefer the ablative, I would much prefer if they just let us craft one.

Is that the crafted 50 value ablative?

EDIT: Woah typed that like I was sending a work email.

Wed 29 May 2019 2:36 PM by Hejjin

niromu wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 2:25 PM
Is that the crafted 50 value ablative?

EDIT: Woah typed that like I was sending a work email.

That is with the ablative tincture, 100 value, lvl 47 to use.

Mon 3 Jun 2019 5:18 AM by Sepplord

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 29 May 2019 1:57 PM
I said maximise the potential, in other words how often it procs, that is not just the damage, it is also the spell proc on the staff, so a faster staff RA procs more, but the damage is lower, but, in my case, it has a much better chance of proccing ablative to help absorb sme damage. As I said to another Friar earlier today, I am still using my Brazen Stout Defender in RvR as it procs for less, but does substantially more damage per hit. In PvE farming, a faster staff with an ablative proc is much better than a slower staff.

Thanks for the explanation, i thought the abla-proc also follow the proc-chance modifications according to the weapon you wield and it wouldn't make a difference

Mon 3 Jun 2019 7:48 AM by Hejjin

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 5:18 AM
Thanks for the explanation, i thought the abla-proc also follow the proc-chance modifications according to the weapon you wield and it wouldn't make a difference

The chance of a RA proc has altered, but they did not change the chance than an RA would proc the spell on the staff. Extensive testing in PvE with a 3.0, 4.2 and 5.6 speed staff with ablative shows that it does make a difference, a significant difference when directly comparing the performance of the 3.0 and 5.6 staves, pulls that are routine using the 3.0 staff often result in either death or barely surviving with the 5.6 staff, despite the fact that the Brazen Stout Defender has a 150 value ablative on it, and not the 100 on the crafted staff.

Edit :
There is also a significant performance difference between a 3.0 staff with ablative and a 3.5 without ablative. I have ablative on half of my armour pieces, so extensive testing with the Bubble Breaker staff helps to partially rule that out as a contributing factor, but obviously RNG is RNG even over thousands of hits.