SB needs Bludgeon for assassin pvp balance

I demand the ability that exist. it's Bludgeon.
it's Added 1.82 patch for assassin balance.

Per patch 1.82: (02.16.06)
- Upon reaching level 10, Shadowblades will be granted the ability to turn their weapons to the side and inflict blunt damage for 30 seconds. (Re-usable every 5 minutes). This ability is found in the abilities list in the spells window.
< https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.82 >

DAOC armor resists are really garbage to Stealther.
I use 4.2 speed weapon, but give a less DMG to Blade NS with a str30 lower than me.
My weapon give (-75) DMG but Blade NS and Slash Infil give (-30) DMG. Is this balance?
So i can't win even low 3rr Blade NS and ranger than me. If Blade NS/Ranger or Slash Infil is nearby, i should be avoided like a rat. Why should I play like this?

Many SBs left this server. Phixion Stranded Riyu and my guild SB players..,
Why? Because of many enemy duo and trio stealther grp?
Nope! I don't think so.
I think, no matter how hard you try to raise R-rank, we can't win Blade NS/Ranger and Slash Infil even low rankers.
This is DAOC's horrible armor resists balance.

So DAOC development team made Bludgeon. It's 2006.
Now is 2019.

Please adds Bludgeon for balance.
I don't demand Increase specialization points from 2.2 to 2.5 per level like Infil. i don't demand NS's instant DD.
I demand the ability that exist.

< My Eng is really horrible, so i used Google Translation. >

Fri 24 May 2019 1:47 PM by Lollie

I don't think giving an ability that not only goes against ALL alb leather wearers, but their plate wearers as well would be "fair". Also bards and bms would be at a disadvantage in your "assassin pvp balance".
Maybe a different way would just to change the armour vulnerabilities.

Fri 24 May 2019 2:02 PM by hwa2019

Lollie wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 1:47 PM
I don't think giving an ability that not only goes against ALL alb leather wearers, but their plate wearers as well would be "fair". Also bards and bms would be at a disadvantage in your "assassin pvp balance".
Maybe a different way would just to change the armour vulnerabilities.

Assassin can't win same rank of pure melee.
Because assassin has no IP, and assassin's damage table is 18, but pure melee is 22. so base DMG has a big difference.
< Damage Table https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Damage_Table >
< Melee Damage Calculator http://tool.excidio.net/melee.htm >

Friar is an untouchable class.

And what Bard does soloing?

Fri 24 May 2019 2:08 PM by Sepplord

You are demanding something?

well that's a bold strategy, let's see how it plays out

Bludgeon on this patchlevel would give us on-demand dmg-type advantage without downsides.
I agree that SBs are disadvantage and should either get a tier1 evadestun or dmg-type downsides reduced (aka 5% isntead of 10% for example) but getting bludgeon would be very OP.
And afaik bludgeon was introduced after elemental weapons were ingame. Which is a completely different situation than what we have

Fri 24 May 2019 2:16 PM by Lollie

The problem is a lot of people cant see outside of their bubble and don't see the extra consequences of a buff which, yes, could balance out the assassin wars (which is why you want it) but also buffs them against other classes.

Fri 24 May 2019 2:43 PM by Pops999

Keep asking for your custom buff to make an already strong class a bit stronger across the spectrum to shore up a weakness against a few. You just might find your vanish nerfed to accommodate all visible classes weakness.

Fri 24 May 2019 2:58 PM by Hejjin

The Herald solo kill statistics do not appear to reflect/support this perceived imbalance.

Fri 24 May 2019 3:00 PM by Turano

hwa2019 wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 1:37 PM
I don't demand Increase specialization points from 2.2 to 2.5 per level like Infil. i don't demand NS's instant DD.
I demand the ability that exist.

Sure, what you want is a flat out damage boost of 20% against nightshades, Rangers, blademasters and bards and 10% against Infils, friars, armsman and Paladin.

Sorry, but no. And you demanding it will not help either

Fri 24 May 2019 3:07 PM by Isavyr

Maybe there's a bigger problem than the damage type, and a problem many stealthers overlook, which is 'Why should a class be created to only kill itself?' Most assassins fight, and judge their success, based on assassin v assassin fights. How does this largely contribute to the game? Are there better ways to implement mechanics to make assassins more relevant across the board?

Fri 24 May 2019 3:07 PM by Cadebrennus

hwa2019 wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 1:37 PM
I demand the ability that exist. it's Bludgeon.
it's Added 1.82 patch for assassin balance.

Per patch 1.82: (02.16.06)
- Upon reaching level 10, Shadowblades will be granted the ability to turn their weapons to the side and inflict blunt damage for 30 seconds. (Re-usable every 5 minutes). This ability is found in the abilities list in the spells window.
< https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.82 >

DAOC armor resists are really garbage to Stealther.
I use 4.2 speed weapon, but give a less DMG to Blade NS with a str30 lower than me.
My weapon give (-75) DMG but Blade NS and Slash Infil give (-30) DMG. Is this balance?
So i can't win even low 3rr Blade NS and ranger than me. If Blade NS/Ranger or Slash Infil is nearby, i should be avoided like a rat. Why should I play like this?

Many SBs left this server. Phixion Stranded Riyu and my guild SB players..,
Why? Because of many enemy duo and trio stealther grp?
Nope! I don't think so.
I think, no matter how hard you try to raise R-rank, we can't win Blade NS/Ranger and Slash Infil even low rankers.
This is DAOC's horrible armor resists balance.

So DAOC development team made Bludgeon. It's 2006.
Now is 2019.

Please adds Bludgeon for balance.
I don't demand Increase specialization points from 2.2 to 2.5 per level like Infil. i don't demand NS's instant DD.
I demand the ability that exist.

< My Eng is really horrible, so i used Google Translation. >

Fri 24 May 2019 3:18 PM by Luluko

instead of giving it for free they could also just give sb the hammer line as a specc or a lvl 40+ style in axe or sword which does 20+ crush damage and should cost like 15% endurance. Imho sb is quite fucked vs other assassins and you cant do anything about that except playing another realm, even damage add wont help much against -75dam just because of the armor tables.

But I doubt this will happen way too mids still playing and the devs dont seem to really care about the stealther balance.

Fri 24 May 2019 4:28 PM by jelzinga_EU

Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 3:00 PM
Sorry, but no. And you demanding it will not help either

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 2:08 PM
You are demanding something?

I don't know the guy nor do I know his native language. But since he states he's using Google Translate, it might be that the finer nuances of his words (in his own language) are lost in translation. Depending on your own language you might have the occasional confusion arise simply because a concept or language-style isn't available in your own language. To some people this might sound like an alien-concept, but not everyone is fluent in English and not everyone only speaks English

For example, In French "demande" means to ask. If you throw in some English sentences into Google Translate you will see a pattern that the finer meaning of a sentence is sometimes lost:

I demand = Je demande
I request = Je demande
I ask = Je demande

With that out of the way, and on subject: Obviously everyone who plays an assassin and has any idea about how the assassins are balanced know that SB got shafted in an assassin vs assassin fight. Those fight occur a lot and can be quite disheartening - mostly because the classes are so... well equal. We all share 3 identical lines (Stealth, Envenom and Critical Strike) which are the bread and butter of the assassin-classes, which would, in theory, give an interesting and balanced fight. Sure, some have lower STR, others lower CON, DEX or QUI but those stat-differences are peanuts when you face a +10% and -10% dmg-modifier on your attacks which you can't change at all by changing your specs (as a SB).

Then throw in some differences into stuns - where SB's also draw the short straw and you end up with a situation where Blade-NS vs SB ends up with something like a 80/20 advantage - where the classes are practically mirrors of each other. You can say a lot about Mythic/EA/Broadsword but at least they changed that by adding Bludgeon and Elemental Weapons.

It would be nice if Phoenix dev's would acknowledge the problem - and would do at least something to close the gap a bit.

Fri 24 May 2019 4:47 PM by Turano

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 4:28 PM
Then throw in some differences into stuns - where SB's also draw the short straw and you end up with a situation where Blade-NS vs SB ends up with something like a 80/20 advantage - where the classes are practically mirrors of each other. You can say a lot about Mythic/EA/Broadsword but at least they changed that by adding Bludgeon and Elemental Weapons.

It would be nice if Phoenix dev's would acknowledge the problem - and would do at least something to close the gap a bit.

Bludgeon was added when elemental weapons were already implemented so that it did not influence balance at all.
Nightshades have to spec their weak weapon line just to have a fighting chance against Infils and SB's. The after evade stun and the change of debuff poison to weaponskill/con instead of str/con make it at least viable. In the process they gimp themselves against the biggest danger apart from other assas: skalds.
I'ld go back to pierce in a heartbeat if i could use elemental weapons and/or choose my damage type freely otherwise.

Infils are shafted whatever they do. SB's are thrust resistent, ns are slash resistent. Some decided for themselves that specing slash just for the bonus against mid leather is worth the massive disadvantages it brings.

And now you want to one sidedly give SB's the ability to change there damage type at will to match their enemies armor weakness? For nothing? No

Fri 24 May 2019 5:01 PM by jelzinga_EU

Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 4:47 PM
Bludgeon was added when elemental weapons were already implemented so that it did not influence balance at all.
Nightshades have to spec their weak weapon line just to have a fighting chance against Infils and SB's. The after evade stun and the change of debuff poison to weaponskill/con instead of str/con make it at least viable. In the process they gimp themselves against the biggest danger apart from other assas: skalds.
I'ld go back to pierce in a heartbeat if i could use elemental weapons and/or choose my damage type freely otherwise.

Infils are shafted whatever they do. SB's are thrust resistent, ns are slash resistent. Some decided for themselves that specing slash just for the bonus against mid leather is worth the massive disadvantages it brings.

And now you want to one sidedly give SB's the ability to change there damage type at will to match their enemies armor weakness? For nothing? No

Obviously you would spec Pierce if you could do that while picking any damage-type, duh. More damage (due to higher DEX) without losing anything. It is not even a choice, as you only gain something and don't lose something.

It is funny you say Infils are shafted because they either fight resistant SB or resistant NS. But now look at SB's: They can't chose or decide anything and will face resistant NS no matter what (Axe or Sword) and neutral INF's. SB's are shafted even more, by your own logic (!)

I didn't say I wanted to give SB's Bludgeon. This discussion was done months ago and gruenes_schaff convinced me that it was a bad idea. But that doesn't mean doing nothing is the better course of action. Something should be done, at least if you're interested into balanced fights between the 3 assassins. It could be instant off-evade stun in LA or offering neutral-to-all leather to all realms or something along those lines.

Fri 24 May 2019 5:25 PM by Bradekes

No it's currently balanced.. SB get haste effect from LA 100% of the time and LA has amazing styles.. It's balanced on that premise.. Infy high DW makes them balanced too.. Don't take those full power LA styles for granted.. Lvl 50 style has dd proc which is killer if pulled off with that huge growth rate.

Fri 24 May 2019 5:26 PM by Turano

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 5:01 PM
It is funny you say Infils are shafted because they either fight resistant SB or resistant NS. But now look at SB's: They can't chose or decide anything and will face resistant NS no matter what (Axe or Sword) and neutral INF's. SB's are shafted even more, by your own logic (!)

That is right. The balancing factor has always been that SB 's have thrust resistent leather and a high str race to choose specing slash/blades had major disadvantages for infis/nightshades.
Then toa was released and with that elemental weapons and artefact weapons, namely battler and malice. While the former eliminated the armor reist problem the latter made slash/blades viable and for Infils, after the df nerf, even the best option together with the change of the debuff poison.
Also toa stat cap bonus and the use of buffbots made starting stats way less important that they were or are here.
Bludgeon on live was a way for SB's to keep using their artefacts against slash resistent armors and not having to switch to elementals (btw Infils or nightshades would have found this usefull as well

) . But it was not a major balancing factor

Here it would change the balance completely to the SB 's favor for no cost at all on their behalf.

Elemental weapons would be the obvious choice but this is a can of worms I am not sure the devs would want to open

Fri 24 May 2019 6:36 PM by jelzinga_EU

Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 5:26 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 5:01 PM
It is funny you say Infils are shafted because they either fight resistant SB or resistant NS. But now look at SB's: They can't chose or decide anything and will face resistant NS no matter what (Axe or Sword) and neutral INF's. SB's are shafted even more, by your own logic (!)
That is right. The balancing factor has always been that SB 's have thrust resistent leather and a high str race to choose specing slash/blades had major disadvantages for infis/nightshades.
Then toa was released and with that elemental weapons and artefact weapons, namely battler and malice. While the former eliminated the armor reist problem the latter made slash/blades viable and for Infils, after the df nerf, even the best option together with the change of the debuff poison.
Also toa stat cap bonus and the use of buffbots made starting stats way less important that they were or are here.
Bludgeon on live was a way for SB's to keep using their artefacts against slash resistent armors and not having to switch to elementals (btw Infils or nightshades would have found this usefull as well ) . But it was not a major balancing factor

Here it would change the balance completely to the SB 's favor for no cost at all on their behalf.

Elemental weapons would be the obvious choice but this is a can of worms I am not sure the devs would want to open

Thank you for the history-lesson; but neither current live (or just after TOA live) is really relevant to the current situation. As you say, speccing Slash/Blades was having disadvantages for NS/INF - but also for SB and they had no other option. A lot of those disadvantages have been removed for (especially) NS, e.g. stuns and the likes, but SB's never really got the same treatment as NS/INF got in the current version on Phoenix.

Bludgeon would probably overdo it, not so much for fights against INF/NS but also having a huge impact for friars, BM's, Arms, Rangers, Pallies etc. so I do not see as the proper way to tackle the problem. But the problem remains, elemental weapons is a can of worms as you say. An easier solution is changing damage-tables for assassins -melee only, e.g. make everyone the same (resistant, weak or neutral) to eachother's damage - it would have the added benefit for NS/INF to make Thrust and Pierce once again much more viable - and SB's would at least play on even grounds.

Fri 24 May 2019 6:45 PM by Lollie

The only problem I can see with changing armour resist tables is it would be a side nerf to every blade/slash using character out there. I don't think there is a solution that won't adversely effect some other class. The only thing I can think of is make everyone's armour neutral and scrap the whole r armour resist thing.

Fri 24 May 2019 10:36 PM by djegu

I agree with OP, also give +30quick base to SB so they can keep their #1 position in the stealth war and also give them perma vanish so they can escape bad adders.

Sat 25 May 2019 3:17 AM by Mgh

Just make all assassins wear cloth. Problem solved.

Sat 25 May 2019 5:55 PM by Cadebrennus

If only Shadowblades had a huge strength and weaponskill advantage over those darn noodle-armed Blades-using Elf and Lurikeen Nightshades..... if only.....

Mon 27 May 2019 6:55 AM by Lillebror

Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 4:47 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 May 2019 4:28 PM
Then throw in some differences into stuns - where SB's also draw the short straw and you end up with a situation where Blade-NS vs SB ends up with something like a 80/20 advantage - where the classes are practically mirrors of each other. You can say a lot about Mythic/EA/Broadsword but at least they changed that by adding Bludgeon and Elemental Weapons.

It would be nice if Phoenix dev's would acknowledge the problem - and would do at least something to close the gap a bit.
Bludgeon was added when elemental weapons were already implemented so that it did not influence balance at all.
Nightshades have to spec their weak weapon line just to have a fighting chance against Infils and SB's. The after evade stun and the change of debuff poison to weaponskill/con instead of str/con make it at least viable. In the process they gimp themselves against the biggest danger apart from other assas: skalds.
I'ld go back to pierce in a heartbeat if i could use elemental weapons and/or choose my damage type freely otherwise.

Infils are shafted whatever they do. SB's are thrust resistent, ns are slash resistent. Some decided for themselves that specing slash just for the bonus against mid leather is worth the massive disadvantages it brings.

And now you want to one sidedly give SB's the ability to change there damage type at will to match their enemies armor weakness? For nothing? No

As a inf with 2.5x spec points i was tempted to test at rr5 (might be that this work even better with going high DW instead of CS, depends on playstyle)
35 stealth
37 thrust
37 slash
44 cs
14 dw
35 envenom
With all these easy mode switch macroes i should have no touble swapping to the best dps type.

NS can close to same with
35 stealth
35 pierce
35 blade
39 cs
8 cd
35 envenom

Giveing SB a specline that gave another dps type would be a solution, crush dps on will for free aint. I agree that they could reduce the armor weakness to 5% instead of 10 (all weakness/resistance) so the diffrence wasnt that big.

But as all other point out, this all water things out and in the end we all can only make "human" races that got equal stat/resists and only one spec and only one template is fotman.