Thoughts on Increasing Amber Pet Stun Proc Rate?

Did a short test of Amber pet stun proc rate after noticing that it hasn't procced for me a single time in RvR.

Procced 4/100 swings so I'm gonna say the proc rate is right around 5%.

I think it would be a good idea to (significantly) increase that to 10%. Reasoning is as follows:

1) Pet run speed means that the amber pet only ever gets a maximum of 2-3 swings off if you're kiting your target. 5% proc rate means that your chances of getting a stun proc against your target in those 2-3 swings are very rare.
2) A change like this would probably really only benefit solo cabalists. In group RvR, it's much more common to use a different pet such as Ruby, so I don't see this affecting group play significantly.

A change like this would give solo cabalists a chance to survive against frontload classes like assassins and high utility solo classes like Skalds while not taking away the extreme advantage those classes have over solo casters (they should have that advantage, just to be clear).

Sun 19 May 2019 2:51 PM by Luluko

only if that stun gives immunity and the last time I got stunned by one it didnt give immunity

Sun 19 May 2019 4:54 PM by teiloh

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=8573

It was 25. It got ninja nerfed last patch, as did Em sim. Now spirit champion is basically Amber Sim except instead of a con buff it has a bt lifetap DD proc's as well, is 150 percent better at stunning, and intercepts much more than 50% of attacks. Balance?

And luluko SM pet proc's 2.5x as much as Amber, you notice this immediately whenever you have an SM pet on you.

On live 1.65 it was the other way around, SMs would always bitch about it not proccing. And Amber Sim is supposed to have 500+ range on their stun but it almost never goes off at range.

Sun 19 May 2019 7:02 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 4:54 PM
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=8573

It was 25. It got ninja nerfed last patch, as did Em sim. Now spirit champion is basically Amber Sim except instead of a con buff it has a bt lifetap DD proc's as well, is 150 percent better at stunning, and intercepts much more than 50% of attacks. Balance?

And luluko SM pet proc's 2.5x as much as Amber, you notice this immediately whenever you have an SM pet on you.

On live 1.65 it was the other way around, SMs would always bitch about it not proccing. And Amber Sim is supposed to have 500+ range on their stun but it almost never goes off at range.

I am not against that it that the amber pet should have the same stun chance like sm pet but I wasnt stunned by a sm pet yet since I dont play any 50 alb/hib toons, I only remember that the amber pet used to stun me once and I got no immunity even tho that has been awhile so maybe they fixed that already.

Sun 19 May 2019 8:08 PM by teiloh

Amber pet should stun much more than SM pet, both in principle and as it was on live.

Sun 19 May 2019 8:20 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 8:08 PM
Amber pet should stun much more than SM pet, both in principle and as it was on live.

I dont see why it should have a higher chance, its no intercept pet but sm also has no access to a ranged pet or one with disease.

Sun 19 May 2019 8:56 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 8:20 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 8:08 PM
Amber pet should stun much more than SM pet, both in principle and as it was on live.

I dont see why it should have a higher chance, its no intercept pet but sm also has no access to a ranged pet or one with disease.

All three pet classes pretty much use their "best" pet. SM pet intercept alone makes it one of the best out of anything that can be summoned.

Cabalist pets after being repeatedly nerfed and homogenized (aka ninja/stealth nerfed) are the worst. Ranged pet doesn't snare like Companion, Stun pet is just a SM pet that's garbage, etc.

Amber sim absolutely should have an advantage over SM pets.

Sun 19 May 2019 10:44 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 8:56 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 8:20 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 8:08 PM
Amber pet should stun much more than SM pet, both in principle and as it was on live.

I dont see why it should have a higher chance, its no intercept pet but sm also has no access to a ranged pet or one with disease.

All three pet classes pretty much use their "best" pet. SM pet intercept alone makes it one of the best out of anything that can be summoned.

Cabalist pets after being repeatedly nerfed and homogenized (aka ninja/stealth nerfed) are the worst. Ranged pet doesn't snare like Companion, Stun pet is just a SM pet that's garbage, etc.

Amber sim absolutely should have an advantage over SM pets.

I dont see why tho with all the tools cab has he is quite equal to sm just not vs stealthers since the intercept pet is just pretty awesome against those, but against casters and in grps cab with pet/ns/disease and debuffs is prolly the strongest of all 3 mostly because of ns for range rupt. He isnt that viable at soloing but none of those 3 classes are really for different reasons but I dont think amber pet needs a better stun than sm pet equal is enough. But from the last few discussions we had I gathered I can prolly write what I want here your tinted pink albion glasses are just too strong to see anything else than nerfs to alb and buffs to hib/mid.

Mon 20 May 2019 4:23 AM by teiloh

First of all, don't forget that SM pets stunned much less than Cabs on live. You need strong justifications to alter that status quo, much less completely reverse it in a ninja nerf, no less. And the SM pet doesn't just stun, it procs three other things. SM pets were already custom buffed once with intercept damage being greatly reduced from what it was in 1.65. Not only that, but if you're talking groups SM pets get both sets of resists and base buffs from the Pac Healer.

Cabs having NS is NOT a good thing for Alb - they're the main debuffer and main assist and needing them to go off-train to NS/DZ ****s your DPS unless your group is in sync, like top 98% percentile group coordination. SMs have AOE stat debuffs, the highest DPS single target nuke in the game on Mid's main train (Cold) and they demezz. Any Mid group with SM has a third demezz. Their role in a grp is very clear-cut and meshes well with the realm.

Mon 20 May 2019 9:40 AM by Druth

I kinda suspect that they wanted a general nerf to pets, but that SM pets are going under the radar because so few RvR.

Mon 20 May 2019 10:04 AM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 4:23 AM
First of all, don't forget that SM pets stunned much less than Cabs on live. You need strong justifications to alter that status quo, much less completely reverse it in a ninja nerf, no less. And the SM pet doesn't just stun, it procs three other things. SM pets were already custom buffed once with intercept damage being greatly reduced from what it was in 1.65. Not only that, but if you're talking groups SM pets get both sets of resists and base buffs from the Pac Healer.

Cabs having NS is NOT a good thing for Alb - they're the main debuffer and main assist and needing them to go off-train to NS/DZ ****s your DPS unless your group is in sync, like top 98% percentile group coordination. SMs have AOE stat debuffs, the highest DPS single target nuke in the game on Mid's main train (Cold) and they demezz. Any Mid group with SM has a third demezz. Their role in a grp is very clear-cut and meshes well with the realm.

Sure cab has a lot of toys and isnt easy to play in grp if you want disease/ns/debuffs utilized all at once but so is healer and healer is way more important since they need to cc/rupt/heal/cast cele and what not. And what else does sm pet have except stun? Ats debuff/lifeleech like on live? No need for amber to have that cab already has insta ats debuff and doesnt even need a pet for that and he also has the saphirpet for lifeleech which is pretty useless anyway. If that are things what sm pets have sure give it all to the amber pet aswell I dont care. And I actually dont care much how the stun chance was at a certain patch level in the past phoenix is a custom server anyway.

Mon 20 May 2019 5:06 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 10:04 AM
Sure cab has a lot of toys and isnt easy to play in grp if you want disease/ns/debuffs utilized all at once but so is healer and healer is way more important since they need to cc/rupt/heal/cast cele and what not. And what else does sm pet have except stun? Ats debuff/lifeleech like on live? No need for amber to have that cab already has insta ats debuff and doesnt even need a pet for that and he also has the saphirpet for lifeleech which is pretty useless anyway. If that are things what sm pets have sure give it all to the amber pet aswell I dont care. And I actually dont care much how the stun chance was at a certain patch level in the past phoenix is a custom server anyway.

If you gave Amber pets intercept Spiritmasters would have a meltdown, but they sure don't care when their pets are buffed and ninja buffed and Ambers are nerfed into the ground by stealth.

Other than stun it procs a DD, lifetap and self bladeturn.

Mon 20 May 2019 5:57 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 5:06 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 10:04 AM
Sure cab has a lot of toys and isnt easy to play in grp if you want disease/ns/debuffs utilized all at once but so is healer and healer is way more important since they need to cc/rupt/heal/cast cele and what not. And what else does sm pet have except stun? Ats debuff/lifeleech like on live? No need for amber to have that cab already has insta ats debuff and doesnt even need a pet for that and he also has the saphirpet for lifeleech which is pretty useless anyway. If that are things what sm pets have sure give it all to the amber pet aswell I dont care. And I actually dont care much how the stun chance was at a certain patch level in the past phoenix is a custom server anyway.

If you gave Amber pets intercept Spiritmasters would have a meltdown, but they sure don't care when their pets are buffed and ninja buffed and Ambers are nerfed into the ground by stealth.

Other than stun it procs a DD, lifetap and self bladeturn.

yeah well cab with intercept pet would be a little too op, and you see them quite a lot in rvr so its not that they need huge buffs, while sms are quite rare

Tue 21 May 2019 1:38 AM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 5:57 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 5:06 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 10:04 AM
Sure cab has a lot of toys and isnt easy to play in grp if you want disease/ns/debuffs utilized all at once but so is healer and healer is way more important since they need to cc/rupt/heal/cast cele and what not. And what else does sm pet have except stun? Ats debuff/lifeleech like on live? No need for amber to have that cab already has insta ats debuff and doesnt even need a pet for that and he also has the saphirpet for lifeleech which is pretty useless anyway. If that are things what sm pets have sure give it all to the amber pet aswell I dont care. And I actually dont care much how the stun chance was at a certain patch level in the past phoenix is a custom server anyway.

If you gave Amber pets intercept Spiritmasters would have a meltdown, but they sure don't care when their pets are buffed and ninja buffed and Ambers are nerfed into the ground by stealth.

Other than stun it procs a DD, lifetap and self bladeturn.
yeah well cab with intercept pet would be a little too op, and you see them quite a lot in rvr so its not that they need huge buffs, while sms are quite rare

Cabs are popular because they have Alb's cast debuff.

Tue 21 May 2019 6:18 AM by Sepplord

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 1:38 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 5:57 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 5:06 PM
If you gave Amber pets intercept Spiritmasters would have a meltdown, but they sure don't care when their pets are buffed and ninja buffed and Ambers are nerfed into the ground by stealth.

Other than stun it procs a DD, lifetap and self bladeturn.
yeah well cab with intercept pet would be a little too op, and you see them quite a lot in rvr so its not that they need huge buffs, while sms are quite rare

Cabs are popular because they have Alb's cast debuff.

and that means.... ?

Tue 21 May 2019 8:08 AM by teiloh

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 6:18 AM
and that means.... ?

It means they're popular because they have a necessary mechanic locked onto their class, not because their pets are good or Matter or Body are particularly stellar lines.

Tue 21 May 2019 9:36 AM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 8:08 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 6:18 AM
and that means.... ?

It means they're popular because they have a necessary mechanic locked onto their class, not because their pets are good or Matter or Body are particularly stellar lines.

well not everyone can have the utilitiy of a light eld and then also have a pet

Tue 21 May 2019 10:06 AM by Sepplord

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 8:08 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 6:18 AM
and that means.... ?

It means they're popular because they have a necessary mechanic locked onto their class, not because their pets are good or Matter or Body are particularly stellar lines.

Seems a bit like arguing that shamans should get a healline comparable to healers, and when someone points out that shamans are in all groups anyways go "ya, but that's just because of buffs"...well no sh**, that's also the reason why their healline is weaker. Combination of all available stuff makes a class. It doesn't make sense to look at one portion and compare it to a similar portion of a completely different class.

Tue 21 May 2019 3:15 PM by Boxy Brown

Lots of good points here.

I dont think increasing the amber pet stun chance would have a particularly large effect on group/zerg RvR.

My main concern is with solo/duo play where that stun can actualy make a difference. I really like playing solo cab and having the stun basically never proc really hurts.

I also think it’s fair to compare them to SMs in this regard. If the SM pet has a high chance to stun, I don’t see why the amber pet should lack that chance. Both classes have unique advantages and disadvantages in solo/group play. SMs are undoubtedly the better solo class, but if the amber pet stun were brought back up to 25% proc chance (or whatever the SM pet is) then I don’t think it would hurt anything group-wise and would serve as a much needed boost to friendless solo players such as myself.

Tue 21 May 2019 5:16 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 9:36 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 8:08 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 6:18 AM
and that means.... ?

It means they're popular because they have a necessary mechanic locked onto their class, not because their pets are good or Matter or Body are particularly stellar lines.

well not everyone can have the utilitiy of a light eld and then also have a pet

You're comparing a purple NS to a grey or blue one? Light Eld also has a spec nuke for Mana conservation, and AOE stat debuffs which you apparently don't appreciate

Tue 21 May 2019 5:19 PM by teiloh

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 10:06 AM
Seems a bit like arguing that shamans should get a healline comparable to healers, and when someone points out that shamans are in all groups anyways go "ya, but that's just because of buffs"...well no sh**, that's also the reason why their healline is weaker. Combination of all available stuff makes a class. It doesn't make sense to look at one portion and compare it to a similar portion of a completely different class.

Don't jump into arguments without reading context. lulukos argument was that SMs should have an equal or higher stun rate than Amber's which has never been the case on live - because "you see a lot of cabs in RVR and not SMs". This doesn't mean SMs are bad. They're an assist caster, not the debuff caster, so obviously there will be fewer of them because they're not as essential. They more than carry their weight, it's just that with Cold Nukes you have a lot of other options in Midgard. BDs being another pet class and arguably being very overpowered detracts from SM groupability as well.

Tue 21 May 2019 5:54 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 5:16 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 9:36 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 8:08 AM
It means they're popular because they have a necessary mechanic locked onto their class, not because their pets are good or Matter or Body are particularly stellar lines.

well not everyone can have the utilitiy of a light eld and then also have a pet

You're comparing a purple NS to a grey or blue one? Light Eld also has a spec nuke for Mana conservation, and AOE stat debuffs which you apparently don't appreciate

no I am saying that you cant expect to have almost all the tools of a lighteld and also have an op pet and debuff your own damage type

also if all the toys elds/sm have are so great just play them instead even its only in thid

Tue 21 May 2019 6:39 PM by Boxy Brown

Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 5:54 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 5:16 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 9:36 AM
well not everyone can have the utilitiy of a light eld and then also have a pet

You're comparing a purple NS to a grey or blue one? Light Eld also has a spec nuke for Mana conservation, and AOE stat debuffs which you apparently don't appreciate
no I am saying that you cant expect to have almost all the tools of a lighteld and also have an op pet and debuff your own damage type

also if all the toys elds/sm have are so great just play them instead even its only in thid

Why do you think increasing the stun rate on the Amber per would be OP?

Tue 21 May 2019 7:54 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 5:54 PM
no I am saying that you cant expect to have almost all the tools of a lighteld and also have an op pet and debuff your own damage type

also if all the toys elds/sm have are so great just play them instead even its only in thid

Red NS and Grey NS are nowhere near the same plane of existence, and on top of that it's far better to have NS on an assist caster and not your primary caster/MA.

Completely different from Healers with Heal + CC, because the Pac is the off-healer to a Mend, and CC/Healing come at different times during the flow of combat and almost serve the same role (mitigation).

The Cab is a strong class but Alb's debuff train setup is not particularly good. The only thing that makes them stand out is the fact that at least one body caster is necessary in almost every single Alb group.

You floated the idea of making the pets identical, I'm just saying that the SM pets should stun less.

On principle, and based on Live performance.

Tue 21 May 2019 8:34 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 7:54 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 5:54 PM
no I am saying that you cant expect to have almost all the tools of a lighteld and also have an op pet and debuff your own damage type

also if all the toys elds/sm have are so great just play them instead even its only in thid

Red NS and Grey NS are nowhere near the same plane of existence, and on top of that it's far better to have NS on an assist caster and not your primary caster/MA.

Completely different from Healers with Heal + CC, because the Pac is the off-healer to a Mend, and CC/Healing come at different times during the flow of combat and almost serve the same role (mitigation).

The Cab is a strong class but Alb's debuff train setup is not particularly good. The only thing that makes them stand out is the fact that at least one body caster is necessary in almost every single Alb group.

You floated the idea of making the pets identical, I'm just saying that the SM pets should stun less.

On principle, and based on Live performance.

grey ns still has 2,3k range enough to rupt and being annoying + pet to take out one supporter, sure cab has no ae dex debuff and no baseline stun but lifeleech and can debuff his own damage what eld cant, both got access to disease if they want its really even because cab cant get red ns without sacrificing other things while having a baseline pet/lifeleech while sm has to specc for a lifeleech. And if the amber pet gives stun immunity sure it can be 5sec stun or so I dont mind but the last time I got stunned by one it didnt gave immunity if I remember right but this has been months ago so I am not sure if thats the case anymore feel free to clarify that. If it doesnt give stun immunity the procc chance should be really low and if it does sure 5sec or so with 10-20% chance sounds fine for me.

Tue 21 May 2019 8:49 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 8:34 PM
grey ns still has 2,3k range enough to rupt and being annoying + pet to take out one supporter, sure cab has no ae dex debuff and no baseline stun but lifeleech and can debuff his own damage what eld cant, both got access to disease if they want its really even because cab cant get red ns without sacrificing other things while having a baseline pet/lifeleech while sm has to specc for a lifeleech. And if the amber pet gives stun immunity sure it can be 5sec stun or so I dont mind but the last time I got stunned by one it didnt gave immunity if I remember right but this has been months ago so I am not sure if thats the case anymore feel free to clarify that. If it doesnt give stun immunity the procc chance should be really low and if it does sure 5sec or so with 10-20% chance sounds fine for me.

Cab disease starts with a 250 radius at level 15ish and it goes up by 50 each tier. Almost no Cabs have 350/400 disease, unless you go for garbage Tri-spec and completely gut your group's damage.

Eld Disease is always 350, and Sham gets 400 for free.

NS is not only used for interrupts. Red NS can completely shut down and overwhelm a group. Grey NS is an inconvenience.

It doesn't matter that an Eld can't self debuff damage in a group, they are hitting Chanter damage debuffs and Chanters have no job other than hitting instas, debuffing, sending pets and nuking.

Lifeleech does almost nothing in groups, and solo 60% is not enough to save you. If you're being damaged you're not casting 95% of the time. It actually benefits an SM because an SM with a pet around can sit through 1-2 people meleeing him and still get a cast off, and mitigate enough damage so that the 90% lifetap actually heals them enough to change TTK.

Cab stun leaves no immunity but neither does SM. I watched my friend on Theurg get stunned 3 times in 12 seconds, when on live 1.65 an SM pet would almost never stun; maybe 5% or less. I'm not sure, but they may have set immunities as well. They complained about this all the time.

Tue 21 May 2019 9:45 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 8:49 PM
Cab stun leaves no immunity but neither does SM. I watched my friend on Theurg get stunned 3 times in 12 seconds, when on live 1.65 an SM pet would almost never stun; maybe 5% or less. I'm not sure, but they may have set immunities as well. They complained about this all the time.

well no immunity then the stun chance should be low for sm and amber pet problem solved, also I dont really understand why you even care for that, the stun pet isnt really used much in grp play anyway and most of your arguments are from a grp setting perspective

and a solo cab would prolly go full matter anyway and zergsurf where the amber pet is pretty useless anyway

imho it seems you rather ask for nerfs for the sm (one of the least played classes in rvr) just because you maybe died to one? I really dunno what is with you are you just bored and want to argue just to argue?

also what are all those other comparisons for? there are also many things where alb has better skills/spells

better never come to mid and play a sb/zerk or a damage shield sm you will never stop complaining then if you compare those to the other realm classes

Tue 21 May 2019 10:43 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 9:45 PM
well no immunity then the stun chance should be low for sm and amber pet problem solved, also I dont really understand why you even care for that, the stun pet isnt really used much in grp play anyway and most of your arguments are from a grp setting perspective

1. They don't set immunity
2. SM pet abilities stack up. The last pet does everything, stun, dd, lifetap, blade-turn, intercept.

Wed 22 May 2019 3:10 PM by Boxy Brown

I agree that the Amber pet isnt really used in group/zerg play and is much more useful for a solo (not zerg surfing) cabby.

Thats more or less the whole basis of my argument that the stun should proc more.

I don’t think it would be OP, I think the proc rate is currently underpowered and should be brought up regardless of whatever the proc rate on the SM pet is.

Part of what makes cabbies fun is selecting the proper pet for the proper situation. They all have unique abilities that make then shine in different areas. The problem, as I see it, is that the amber pet’s unique ability (stunning the enemy) doesnt fire with enough frequency to warrant its use in the area where its most applicable (1v1/1vX).

I think the fix for this is pretty simple (increase the proc rate), and the consensus so far in this thread seems to be that it wont really affect any other aspects of the game.

Wed 22 May 2019 3:48 PM by Lev

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 10:43 PM
2. SM pet abilities stack up. The last pet does everything, stun, dd, lifetap, blade-turn, intercept.

yes and that means it does not stun every time when a proc is fired. a proc can be all of the above (except intercept, thats no proc).
further a SM has no pet which does ranged damage, can't spec for pet runspeed, has no pet with disease. he basically has only one pet.
actually a SM pet has a different use, it's a bodyguard which needs to be near the SM to do its job. why even compare these two?

Wed 22 May 2019 6:17 PM by teiloh

Lev wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 3:48 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 10:43 PM
2. SM pet abilities stack up. The last pet does everything, stun, dd, lifetap, blade-turn, intercept.
yes and that means it does not stun every time when a proc is fired. a proc can be all of the above (except intercept, thats no proc).
further a SM has no pet which does ranged damage, can't spec for pet runspeed, has no pet with disease. he basically has only one pet.
actually a SM pet has a different use, it's a bodyguard which needs to be near the SM to do its job. why even compare these two?

SM pets should not have higher chances to stun. And the proc rates definitely are not mutually excluding.
Both based on live and the pre-stealth-nerf version of Phoenix