Changes to Shadowblades - Phoenix Freeshard

Before you start with "Shadowblades do fine, they topping Herald" etcetera - please count to 10 and come with a coherent argument as to why you think the proposed changes are imbalanced / OP.

Currently the down-sides of playing a SB:
* No single off-evade stun like our counterparts (NS, INF) have in the form of Beartooth, Dragonfang, Horizontal Blade or Diamondback.
* Single weapon-type (slash-damage); no weapon-spec which our primary stat (DEX) affects.
* Our armour is slash-weak ; which is a damage-type our counterparts can spec. We can't return that favor.
* Our 2-chain stun is much higher in the specs (34 Axe, 39 for Sword and Left-Axe) than our counterparts have, which hinders our spec-options greatly. Essentially our counterparts can drop weapon to 52 composite and keep the stun, we can't. That means in order to keep our stun we need 39 Left-Axe or waste spec-points to go above 52 comp-weapon

Up-sides of playing a SB:
* Access to 2H - completely useless in typical encounters on a SB. Yes it is, no you don't know better than all the SB's - it is useless
* Access to a 70 STR/CON race

When the style-rework was done on Phoenix in late beta, it consisted for stealthers out of "Find and Replace "after block" and "after parry" to "after evade". For this reason only, both Beartooth and Horizontal Blade became an off-evade stun. Since neither Sword nor Axe have an off-block/off-parry stun SB's did not get this.

As said, our specs are basically pigeonholed - and in order to keep your (2-in-chain) stun you either need 39 Sword / 34 Axe or 39 Left-Axe. In order to remove this problem, I would propose the following change to SB's:

* 25 Axe style "Raider", change the Bleed in a 5 sec stun it.
* 25 Sword style "Ice-Storm", add a 5 sec stun to it.

This is a small change and it fixes 2 problems in 1 go. As a result we get our off-evade stun like our counterparts and you open up more (viable) spec-options. I understand this change wouldn't fix all SB-problems - but this seems less invasive than changing armour-tables or giving us Bludgeon or a different weapon-damage type.

Sun 12 May 2019 8:12 PM by Numatic

I dont have a problem with SB getting an off evade stun. At a lower spec.

However I will say that I have yet to out damage a SB on my NS and the only way I ever survive is completely RNG (evades, procs etc.). I never understood the gripe about NS being an OP assasin. Though I'm a luri peirce shade so dunno.

Mon 13 May 2019 6:12 AM by pollojack

I don't have problems with SBs on my NS. I think giving the SBs a 34 skill based stun would be an improvement to gameplay.

Additionally, I would push for the reduction in INF stun duration. Without purge if they purge its basically game over, a 4 or 5 second stun isn't quite so I win though.

I run pierce, and feel WS is more important than dmg. If there was a ws drop to use crush, as I am sure that's what yall want, I think that would be acceptable. 70 STR crush is quite a bit of ws/dmg more than 40 for our slash or 60 for our pierce.

Mon 13 May 2019 6:33 AM by Druth

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 7:38 PM
Before you start with "Shadowblades do fine, they topping Herald" etcetera - please count to 10 and come with a coherent argument as to why you think the proposed changes are imbalanced / OP.

Okay, I will not do that then.

But please then ask yourself first: "Why are SB's doing so well in weekly rps?".
Maybe despite them not being equal to other assassins they are good vs. visible?
Or might it be just because Midgard pop, and a few people who play them a lot?
Or that SB's don't have to fight BD's?

It's just that in all due respect, asking for a buff when your class (seemingly) does better than the other it wants to compare itself to, you should first try to figure out if you are missing something when you compare their respective strengths/weaknesses.
Like I said, it could be due to other factors, but just ignoring the numbers seems to me a little deceptive.

If all assassins could do was fight other assassins, then I completely agree they should be equal.
But keep in mind that 2-hand perf is really really good vs. casters/archers/etc... it might not come into play vs. other assassins, but it's still a major advantage SB's have that other assassins don't have.
Every fight you can finish fast, means higher chance of re-stealthing.

And down the line, your changes are really very modest. I don't think they would even be registered by the majority. So respect for that.

Mon 13 May 2019 6:46 AM by easytoremember

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 7:38 PM
* No single off-evade stun like our counterparts (NS, INF) have in the form of Beartooth, Dragonfang, Horizontal Blade or Diamondback.

Aren't 3 of those 4 styles thrust damage?
The tradeoff for slash advantage is giving up Beartooth/Dragonfang as infil
The tradeoff for slash advantage is giving up Diamondback as NS while retaining option of Horizon Blade (low level)

There's no imbalance there (except Celt NS being available)
If you want to go on to compare the Inf/NS followup stuns for Slash,DW/Blades,CD please do so

Mon 13 May 2019 6:55 AM by Turano

Trade your thrust resistent armor for at least thrust neutral, then we can talk about damage types.
Infils and Nightshades have the option to either spec their good damage type (thrust/pierce) to counter their weak strength and have better styles but have to fight SB's at - 10% or go blades/slash for worst damage (low str) and styles just for the bonus.

Nightshades have to deal with both Infils and SB's having thrust resistend armor.
And Infils are doomed no matter what, for NS have slash resi and SB's thrust so they have to choose where to get shafted

Mon 13 May 2019 10:15 AM by Luluko

Turano wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 6:55 AM
Trade your thrust resistent armor for at least thrust neutral, then we can talk about damage types.
Infils and Nightshades have the option to either spec their good damage type (thrust/pierce) to counter their weak strength and have better styles but have to fight SB's at - 10% or go blades/slash for worst damage (low str) and styles just for the bonus.

Nightshades have to deal with both Infils and SB's having thrust resistend armor.
And Infils are doomed no matter what, for NS have slash resi and SB's thrust so they have to choose where to get shafted

pretty easy to choose for infis since most of the action is in emain and mids are closer

Mon 13 May 2019 11:01 AM by Turano

Luluko wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 10:15 AM
pretty easy to choose for infis since most of the action is in emain and mids are closer

I guess it is not that easy. Most Infils play thrust for it being the waaaaaay superior specline in case of styles and weapon skill (dex/str vs str only) and having access to an offhand weapon with damadd proc and just life with the damage penalty vs SB's

Mon 13 May 2019 11:13 AM by jelzinga_EU

Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 6:33 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 7:38 PM
Before you start with "Shadowblades do fine, they topping Herald" etcetera - please count to 10 and come with a coherent argument as to why you think the proposed changes are imbalanced / OP.

Okay, I will not do that then.

But please then ask yourself first: "Why are SB's doing so well in weekly rps?".
Maybe despite them not being equal to other assassins they are good vs. visible?
Or might it be just because Midgard pop, and a few people who play them a lot?
Or that SB's don't have to fight BD's?

It's just that in all due respect, asking for a buff when your class (seemingly) does better than the other it wants to compare itself to, you should first try to figure out if you are missing something when you compare their respective strengths/weaknesses.
Like I said, it could be due to other factors, but just ignoring the numbers seems to me a little deceptive.

If all assassins could do was fight other assassins, then I completely agree they should be equal.
But keep in mind that 2-hand perf is really really good vs. casters/archers/etc... it might not come into play vs. other assassins, but it's still a major advantage SB's have that other assassins don't have.
Every fight you can finish fast, means higher chance of re-stealthing.

And down the line, your changes are really very modest. I don't think they would even be registered by the majority. So respect for that.

To be honest, rather than guessing why SB's do better it makes more sense to me to just compare the assassins and have an objective comparison between them. If I had to guess why SB's "do better on the Herald" than NS/INF I think it is mostly down to dedication of those players (e.g. time invested). Objectively speaking an INF is in almost all situations better than a SB. In reality I can't find any advantage on a SB over an INF besides the 70 STR/CON - but feel free to point them out to me. Even tho I do understand that fighting BD's is annoying I think INF has the advantage seeing the classes they fight with and against.

About the 2H: No it is not good vs casters/archers. You don't "insta-kill" with a 2H Perf - so the delay between PA and CD actually gives them more time to react before the stun. If it does not insta-kill and it comes down to a situation where you need more attacks to kill the best way is to use LA so you can minimize the time between PA and CD (stun).

Mon 13 May 2019 11:17 AM by jelzinga_EU

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 6:46 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 7:38 PM
* No single off-evade stun like our counterparts (NS, INF) have in the form of Beartooth, Dragonfang, Horizontal Blade or Diamondback.
Aren't 3 of those 4 styles thrust damage?
The tradeoff for slash advantage is giving up Beartooth/Dragonfang as infil
The tradeoff for slash advantage is giving up Diamondback as NS while retaining option of Horizon Blade (low level)

There's no imbalance there (except Celt NS being available)
If you want to go on to compare the Inf/NS followup stuns for Slash,DW/Blades,CD please do so

I think I said something about coherent arguments. Instant off-evade stun > follow-up stuns. NS/INF have those options, SB do not. Whether or not they are in thrust is irrelevant, it is all about making choices and having options which are not available to SB's. That is the imbalance...

Mon 13 May 2019 11:49 AM by eclipse2k

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 7:38 PM
Before you start with "Shadowblades do fine, they topping Herald" etcetera - please count to 10 and come with a coherent argument as to why you think the proposed changes are imbalanced / OP.

Currently the down-sides of playing a SB:
* No single off-evade stun like our counterparts (NS, INF) have in the form of Beartooth, Dragonfang, Horizontal Blade or Diamondback.

Albs only get a direct after-evade stun if they skill pierce, in which case they no longer have bonus damage against you.
Hibs only get a 4 sec stun in Blades. Trying to get that in is probably a 50/50 gamble whether it's going to do you more good than starting the high-dmg after-evade chain of Critical Strike with a proper Hamstring.

* Single weapon-type (slash-damage); no weapon-spec which our primary stat (DEX) affects.

Mid never had thrust.
I agree how ever, that nothing would break if SB got Bludgeon here, like they did on live.

* Our armour is slash-weak ; which is a damage-type our counterparts can spec. We can't return that favor.

If they do, though, they gimp their stun-capacity.

* Our 2-chain stun is much higher in the specs (34 Axe, 39 for Sword and Left-Axe) than our counterparts have, which hinders our spec-options greatly. Essentially our counterparts can drop weapon to 52 composite and keep the stun, we can't. That means in order to keep our stun we need 39 Left-Axe or waste spec-points to go above 52 comp-weapon

You should be speccing 39 LA anyway, and most SBs on live always did. You probably won't have 50 composite poison AND the LA stun. That being said, this is basically a straw man argument, because there is nothing keeping you from speccing 34 Axe, which is only 1s less of a stun than 39 LA, and will not at all gimp your spec.

Up-sides of playing a SB:
* Access to 2H - completely useless in typical encounters on a SB. Yes it is, no you don't know better than all the SB's - it is useless

No it is not useless. If "all the SB's" agree that it's useless, then I do indeed know better than "all the SB's", because I played a SB for years on live, and 2h PAs are fucking awesome. Plus it teaches even utter newbies to start fights with 3 poisons. Because if you try to CD with your 2h, you deserve to die.

* Access to a 70 STR/CON race

This is actually pretty good pre-ToA. I will now shed a single tear for the gimped Kobold and Valkyn SBs, but 70str/con is pretty good here, with no ToA bonuses, no artifacts etc, a 20 difference in stats actually matters.

When the style-rework was done on Phoenix in late beta, it consisted for stealthers out of "Find and Replace "after block" and "after parry" to "after evade". For this reason only, both Beartooth and Horizontal Blade became an off-evade stun. Since neither Sword nor Axe have an off-block/off-parry stun SB's did not get this.

I'm an infiltrator here on Phoenix, was a SB on live, and I do agree that this is unfair to SBs, but then again, the stuns combined with slash damage still suck in Alb and Hib.

As said, our specs are basically pigeonholed - and in order to keep your (2-in-chain) stun you either need 39 Sword / 34 Axe or 39 Left-Axe. In order to remove this problem, I would propose the following change to SB's:

* 25 Axe style "Raider", change the Bleed in a 5 sec stun it.
* 25 Sword style "Ice-Storm", add a 5 sec stun to it.

34 Axe is hardly gimping your SB.
However, I don't see any issue with giving SB 5sec stuns. It will however make them objectively superior specs to NS and Infi Blades/Slash spec, at which point other people will start the crying. And don't forget that Infis and Ns that are pierce spec, and have the proper stuns that made you sad, are at -10% damage on Mid leather.

This is a small change and it fixes 2 problems in 1 go. As a result we get our off-evade stun like our counterparts and you open up more (viable) spec-options. I understand this change wouldn't fix all SB-problems - but this seems less invasive than changing armour-tables or giving us Bludgeon or a different weapon-damage type.

SBs slightly outdamge Infis and NS already though, if they're properly specced.

Mon 13 May 2019 11:55 AM by Druth

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:13 AM
To be honest, rather than guessing why SB's do better it makes more sense to me to just compare the assassins and have an objective comparison between them. If I had to guess why SB's "do better on the Herald" than NS/INF I think it is mostly down to dedication of those players (e.g. time invested). Objectively speaking an INF is in almost all situations better than a SB. In reality I can't find any advantage on a SB over an INF besides the 70 STR/CON - but feel free to point them out to me. Even tho I do understand that fighting BD's is annoying I think INF has the advantage seeing the classes they fight with and against.

About the 2H: No it is not good vs casters/archers. You don't "insta-kill" with a 2H Perf - so the delay between PA and CD actually gives them more time to react before the stun. If it does not insta-kill and it comes down to a situation where you need more attacks to kill the best way is to use LA so you can minimize the time between PA and CD (stun).

Well, my point was specifically that it doesn't really matter how well SB does vs. infil/NS, unless their fights are predominant vs. those classes, especially when discussing margins.

hehe, I know you hate the numbers. But even if I remove top 50, and only focus on bottom 200, the average rps from kills/weekly made by SB/infil/NS are almost equal, with infils being lowest.
Looking at the amount of kill to death ratio, all assassins are equal as well.
So again, it might be that SB's peform bad vs. infil/ns, but isn't this okay if they still on average perform as well?

Seemed to me that the top SB in Beta hit my chars in Alb/Hib with 2H, as opener, but could be wrong...

And now for my snotty remark... putting "objective" in front of a statement does not make it objective... your statements are subjective, because not only are you highly invested in your conclusion, "Objectively speaking an INF is in almost all situations better than a SB" is pretty impossible to prove wrong, because the variables (skill and targets, and more) can not be accounted for.
If we had some stats from PvP events for SB/Infil/NS, then we would have some grounds for concluding who "is best in almost all situations".
But even then, a few "dedicated" players can twist the results.

Mon 13 May 2019 12:25 PM by Luluko

Turano wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:01 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 10:15 AM
pretty easy to choose for infis since most of the action is in emain and mids are closer
I guess it is not that easy. Most Infils play thrust for it being the waaaaaay superior specline in case of styles and weapon skill (dex/str vs str only) and having access to an offhand weapon with damadd proc and just life with the damage penalty vs SB's

guess thats true and prolly depends if you want to kill chain classes more easiely even tho I am not sure how infis do against those but I get rarely jumped by them solo on my skald

Mon 13 May 2019 1:29 PM by dbeattie71

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:13 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 6:33 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 7:38 PM
Before you start with "Shadowblades do fine, they topping Herald" etcetera - please count to 10 and come with a coherent argument as to why you think the proposed changes are imbalanced / OP.

Okay, I will not do that then.

But please then ask yourself first: "Why are SB's doing so well in weekly rps?".
Maybe despite them not being equal to other assassins they are good vs. visible?
Or might it be just because Midgard pop, and a few people who play them a lot?
Or that SB's don't have to fight BD's?

It's just that in all due respect, asking for a buff when your class (seemingly) does better than the other it wants to compare itself to, you should first try to figure out if you are missing something when you compare their respective strengths/weaknesses.
Like I said, it could be due to other factors, but just ignoring the numbers seems to me a little deceptive.

If all assassins could do was fight other assassins, then I completely agree they should be equal.
But keep in mind that 2-hand perf is really really good vs. casters/archers/etc... it might not come into play vs. other assassins, but it's still a major advantage SB's have that other assassins don't have.
Every fight you can finish fast, means higher chance of re-stealthing.

And down the line, your changes are really very modest. I don't think they would even be registered by the majority. So respect for that.

To be honest, rather than guessing why SB's do better it makes more sense to me to just compare the assassins and have an objective comparison between them. If I had to guess why SB's "do better on the Herald" than NS/INF I think it is mostly down to dedication of those players (e.g. time invested). Objectively speaking an INF is in almost all situations better than a SB. In reality I can't find any advantage on a SB over an INF besides the 70 STR/CON - but feel free to point them out to me. Even tho I do understand that fighting BD's is annoying I think INF has the advantage seeing the classes they fight with and against.

About the 2H: No it is not good vs casters/archers. You don't "insta-kill" with a 2H Perf - so the delay between PA and CD actually gives them more time to react before the stun. If it does not insta-kill and it comes down to a situation where you need more attacks to kill the best way is to use LA so you can minimize the time between PA and CD (stun).

Don’t open with it, open with a fast wep and switch to 2h.

Mon 13 May 2019 2:26 PM by Numatic

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 1:29 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:13 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 6:33 AM
Okay, I will not do that then.

But please then ask yourself first: "Why are SB's doing so well in weekly rps?".
Maybe despite them not being equal to other assassins they are good vs. visible?
Or might it be just because Midgard pop, and a few people who play them a lot?
Or that SB's don't have to fight BD's?

It's just that in all due respect, asking for a buff when your class (seemingly) does better than the other it wants to compare itself to, you should first try to figure out if you are missing something when you compare their respective strengths/weaknesses.
Like I said, it could be due to other factors, but just ignoring the numbers seems to me a little deceptive.

If all assassins could do was fight other assassins, then I completely agree they should be equal.
But keep in mind that 2-hand perf is really really good vs. casters/archers/etc... it might not come into play vs. other assassins, but it's still a major advantage SB's have that other assassins don't have.
Every fight you can finish fast, means higher chance of re-stealthing.

And down the line, your changes are really very modest. I don't think they would even be registered by the majority. So respect for that.

To be honest, rather than guessing why SB's do better it makes more sense to me to just compare the assassins and have an objective comparison between them. If I had to guess why SB's "do better on the Herald" than NS/INF I think it is mostly down to dedication of those players (e.g. time invested). Objectively speaking an INF is in almost all situations better than a SB. In reality I can't find any advantage on a SB over an INF besides the 70 STR/CON - but feel free to point them out to me. Even tho I do understand that fighting BD's is annoying I think INF has the advantage seeing the classes they fight with and against.

About the 2H: No it is not good vs casters/archers. You don't "insta-kill" with a 2H Perf - so the delay between PA and CD actually gives them more time to react before the stun. If it does not insta-kill and it comes down to a situation where you need more attacks to kill the best way is to use LA so you can minimize the time between PA and CD (stun).

Don’t open with it, open with a fast wep and switch to 2h.

That doesnt make sense. The whole reason to use a 2h is to PA with it. Using it for CD is pointless.

Mon 13 May 2019 2:44 PM by dbeattie71

Numatic wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 2:26 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 1:29 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:13 AM
To be honest, rather than guessing why SB's do better it makes more sense to me to just compare the assassins and have an objective comparison between them. If I had to guess why SB's "do better on the Herald" than NS/INF I think it is mostly down to dedication of those players (e.g. time invested). Objectively speaking an INF is in almost all situations better than a SB. In reality I can't find any advantage on a SB over an INF besides the 70 STR/CON - but feel free to point them out to me. Even tho I do understand that fighting BD's is annoying I think INF has the advantage seeing the classes they fight with and against.

About the 2H: No it is not good vs casters/archers. You don't "insta-kill" with a 2H Perf - so the delay between PA and CD actually gives them more time to react before the stun. If it does not insta-kill and it comes down to a situation where you need more attacks to kill the best way is to use LA so you can minimize the time between PA and CD (stun).

Don’t open with it, open with a fast wep and switch to 2h.

That doesnt make sense. The whole reason to use a 2h is to PA with it. Using it for CD is pointless.

Swing Speed
First off, allow me to dispel the myth that you swing your weapon at your current swing speed. Stay with me here. Do you notice how when you pull out your weapon and take a swing with it that for the initial hit, there is no delay? That’s because your swing speed before you attack is 0. That’s right, zero. That’s why your first swing comes out instantly. You will always have your current weapon swing at the speed of your last weapon swing speed. A better term for it would probably be called weapon delay. So if I first swing with a weighted longsword (4.2 speed) there is no delay. Then I immediately swap to a fast weapon in the mainhand, such as a falcata (2.7 if I remember correctly) then the falcata’s first swing will happen at 4.2 speed (minus modifiers for quickness and haste), but the damage modifiers will be acting on a 2.7 speed weapon, not a 4.2, because I’m actually swinging a falcata this swing, not a weighted longsword. If I then switch back to a weighted longsword for the next swing, the delay between the falcata and the swing of the weighted longsword is 2.7 (minus the modifiers of course), but the damage modifiers are for a 4.2 speed weapon (and modifiers). This is why the best slam tanks back on classic always slammed with a small shield then whipped out that polearm. Because this is a classic-lite server, weapon delay means something again, as there is no TOA and post-TOA madness to allow everyone to swing 4.2+ speed weapons and still hit the cap speed of 1.5 seconds.

Have you tried it? It makes sense if you don’t want to get cc’d and still use a 2h.

Edit: quote from Drunken Rangers guide.

Mon 13 May 2019 4:36 PM by Numatic

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 2:44 PM
Numatic wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 2:26 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 1:29 PM
Don’t open with it, open with a fast wep and switch to 2h.

That doesnt make sense. The whole reason to use a 2h is to PA with it. Using it for CD is pointless.

Swing Speed
First off, allow me to dispel the myth that you swing your weapon at your current swing speed. Stay with me here. Do you notice how when you pull out your weapon and take a swing with it that for the initial hit, there is no delay? That’s because your swing speed before you attack is 0. That’s right, zero. That’s why your first swing comes out instantly. You will always have your current weapon swing at the speed of your last weapon swing speed. A better term for it would probably be called weapon delay. So if I first swing with a weighted longsword (4.2 speed) there is no delay. Then I immediately swap to a fast weapon in the mainhand, such as a falcata (2.7 if I remember correctly) then the falcata’s first swing will happen at 4.2 speed (minus modifiers for quickness and haste), but the damage modifiers will be acting on a 2.7 speed weapon, not a 4.2, because I’m actually swinging a falcata this swing, not a weighted longsword. If I then switch back to a weighted longsword for the next swing, the delay between the falcata and the swing of the weighted longsword is 2.7 (minus the modifiers of course), but the damage modifiers are for a 4.2 speed weapon (and modifiers). This is why the best slam tanks back on classic always slammed with a small shield then whipped out that polearm. Because this is a classic-lite server, weapon delay means something again, as there is no TOA and post-TOA madness to allow everyone to swing 4.2+ speed weapons and still hit the cap speed of 1.5 seconds.

Have you tried it? It makes sense if you don’t want to get cc’d and still use a 2h.

Edit: quote from Drunken Rangers guide.

SB's dont use a 2h for fighting. They use it for PA for the 2h damage modifier. Using it for CD is inconsequential and makes it more likely to be evaded (since dual wielding halves defenses such as evade). Its a trade off for the swing speed difference between PA and CD.

Mon 13 May 2019 4:55 PM by Mavella

Use 2h to PA with so you're that much more likely to eat a slam, stun or QC CC before the CD. Your enemies will thank you.

Mon 13 May 2019 5:41 PM by dbeattie71

Numatic wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 4:36 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 2:44 PM
Numatic wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 2:26 PM
That doesnt make sense. The whole reason to use a 2h is to PA with it. Using it for CD is pointless.

Swing Speed
First off, allow me to dispel the myth that you swing your weapon at your current swing speed. Stay with me here. Do you notice how when you pull out your weapon and take a swing with it that for the initial hit, there is no delay? That’s because your swing speed before you attack is 0. That’s right, zero. That’s why your first swing comes out instantly. You will always have your current weapon swing at the speed of your last weapon swing speed. A better term for it would probably be called weapon delay. So if I first swing with a weighted longsword (4.2 speed) there is no delay. Then I immediately swap to a fast weapon in the mainhand, such as a falcata (2.7 if I remember correctly) then the falcata’s first swing will happen at 4.2 speed (minus modifiers for quickness and haste), but the damage modifiers will be acting on a 2.7 speed weapon, not a 4.2, because I’m actually swinging a falcata this swing, not a weighted longsword. If I then switch back to a weighted longsword for the next swing, the delay between the falcata and the swing of the weighted longsword is 2.7 (minus the modifiers of course), but the damage modifiers are for a 4.2 speed weapon (and modifiers). This is why the best slam tanks back on classic always slammed with a small shield then whipped out that polearm. Because this is a classic-lite server, weapon delay means something again, as there is no TOA and post-TOA madness to allow everyone to swing 4.2+ speed weapons and still hit the cap speed of 1.5 seconds.

Have you tried it? It makes sense if you don’t want to get cc’d and still use a 2h.

Edit: quote from Drunken Rangers guide.

SB's dont use a 2h for fighting. They use it for PA for the 2h damage modifier. Using it for CD is inconsequential and makes it more likely to be evaded (since dual wielding halves defenses such as evade). Its a trade off for the swing speed difference between PA and CD.

Casters don’t evade, he’ll if I had a SB I’d at least try it. I did it with my shade and it worked, pa caster with fast wep and cd with slower, they can’t get any cc off then.

Mon 13 May 2019 10:25 PM by Numatic

Mavella wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 4:55 PM
Use 2h to PA with so you're that much more likely to eat a slam, stun or QC CC before the CD. Your enemies will thank you.

Typically it's for casters. Most cant react with a QC fast enough before the CD anyways. Like I said, it's a trade off. Theres always a risk to it.

Tue 14 May 2019 7:08 AM by Sepplord

Casters die either way if you hit CD....it doesn't matter if you CD with 2h or LA.
That's like arguing that The Hulk has an easier time beating up a toddler if you give him a knife. Yeah...might be true, but does it really change anything? Hulk can throw the knife away and beat up toddlers, just like most SBs threw away their 2H long ago.

PA doesn't take equipped weaponspeed for damage calculation but a normalized speed (confirmed by gruenes a few days ago), that's another reason why 2h-PA is bad

The only niche use would be if the next attack with LA doesn't kill, but with 2h it would kill. Which is almost impossible to predict, and due to less defense penetration of 2H is a toss-up even if the niche situation is there.

Tue 14 May 2019 7:50 AM by jelzinga_EU

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 7:08 AM
Casters die either way if you hit CD....it doesn't matter if you CD with 2h or LA.
That's like arguing that The Hulk has an easier time beating up a toddler if you give him a knife. Yeah...might be true, but does it really change anything? Hulk can throw the knife away and beat up toddlers, just like most SBs threw away their 2H long ago.

PA doesn't take equipped weaponspeed for damage calculation but a normalized speed (confirmed by gruenes a few days ago), that's another reason why 2h-PA is bad

The only niche use would be if the next attack with LA doesn't kill, but with 2h it would kill. Which is almost impossible to predict, and due to less defense penetration of 2H is a toss-up even if the niche situation is there.

Took 3 pages despite saying in my initial post "2H is useless" but finally someone understands game-mechanics. Basically 2H vs LA is 2 step-functions and in certain short time-windows it might be that 2H has a shorter TTK - but since it is impossible to predict and LA has higher base DPS than 2H there is a point (for my 52 Comp Weapon / 41 LA spec it is after 12 secs) where LA > 2H no matter what.

But after 4+ months of Phoenix I'm kinda losing faith in any change for whatever stealther. Archers asked for changes, do not get anything except "we're discussing it internally" and SB's lack quite a bit when comparing it to their counterparts but since they do reasonably well it is a hard-sale to correct their imbalances and mistakes on the class without pissing off Albs/Mids.

Tue 14 May 2019 9:00 AM by SlowMo

While we are at it:
1) side stun for everyone
2) after evade stun for slash
3) 100% offhand swing for everyone

and /ironic on
4) mirror classes for all realms

I want my Shadownightfiltrator

Tue 14 May 2019 9:04 AM by Druth

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 9:00 AM
4) mirror classes for all realms

You'd need mirror races, and mirror PvE content as well, to satisfy people.

Tue 14 May 2019 1:57 PM by jelzinga_EU

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 9:00 AM
While we are at it:
1) side stun for everyone
2) after evade stun for slash
3) 100% offhand swing for everyone

and /ironic on
4) mirror classes for all realms

I want my Shadownightfiltrator

So, in your eyes, the classes should be different and advantages and disadvantages should obviously be mixed around a bit.

I've listed the down-sides of the SB-class, what do you think are the down-sides of INF/NS ? Or is your idea that 1 class needs more disadvantages and should be weaker ?

Tue 14 May 2019 6:18 PM by SlowMo

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 1:57 PM
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 9:00 AM
While we are at it:
1) side stun for everyone
2) after evade stun for slash
3) 100% offhand swing for everyone

and /ironic on
4) mirror classes for all realms

I want my Shadownightfiltrator

So, in your eyes, the classes should be different and advantages and disadvantages should obviously be mixed around a bit.

I've listed the down-sides of the SB-class, what do you think are the down-sides of INF/NS ? Or is your idea that 1 class needs more disadvantages and should be weaker ?

In my eyes no class has disadvantages, they are just different to Play or performing different in various situations.

Tue 14 May 2019 6:19 PM by PingGuy

We already did 56 pages on this SB bullshit. Give them the off-evade stun and auto-lock any future threads that complain about SB's being under-powered.

/underpop disagrees with your assessment that SB's have issues.

Tue 14 May 2019 6:48 PM by Sektor

Ok deal, but make celt an allowable race for ns and highlander for inf. How does that sound? 😂😂

*edit* why stop there? Let’s make dw and cd hit with offhand with EVERY STYLE. Sounds legit.

Tue 14 May 2019 7:03 PM by Kappu

Numatic wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 4:36 PM

SB's dont use a 2h for fighting. They use it for PA for the 2h damage modifier. Using it for CD is inconsequential and makes it more likely to be evaded (since dual wielding halves defenses such as evade). Its a trade off for the swing speed difference between PA and CD.
[/quote]

It doesn't halve evade read the patch notes they've reduced that number.

style spec and base weapon spec is used (for the styled attack only, offhand / unstyled uses base weapon spec) - dual wield now reduces block and evade chance by 1/4 (down from 1/2) - melee absorb of animist main pets has been increased - all fnf dd shrooms are now shown as forest heart - fixed ...

Tue 14 May 2019 7:04 PM by Kappu

Turano wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 6:55 AM
Trade your thrust resistent armor for at least thrust neutral, then we can talk about damage types.
Infils and Nightshades have the option to either spec their good damage type (thrust/pierce) to counter their weak strength and have better styles but have to fight SB's at - 10% or go blades/slash for worst damage (low str) and styles just for the bonus.

Nightshades have to deal with both Infils and SB's having thrust resistend armor.
And Infils are doomed no matter what, for NS have slash resi and SB's thrust so they have to choose where to get shafted

You at least have the option to spec a weapon line that your counterparts are weak to..........

Tue 14 May 2019 7:12 PM by Kappu

I think you have to pick your battles based on population and what you're fighting. You won't get the best of everything, but you can spec based on what you see the most of to increase your likelihood of getting a kill.

This option is only available for two realms....... SB's get slash and slash there is literally no argument you can make about getting a choice when one class doesn't have one at all.

One thing that has always bothered me is why Inf/Scout have a varying resist table in what they are weak, vulnerable and resistant to, but Mid and Hib's sneaks are on varied at all on the resistance table.

Tue 14 May 2019 7:37 PM by Turano

Kappu wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 7:04 PM
You at least have the option to spec a weapon line that your counterparts are weak to..........

I do? Neither can I see a crush specline for Infils nor blunt for Nightshades
All I can see is NS double fucked with their presumably strong choice thrust for both mid and alb leather are thrust resistent or going blades with 45 str races. Whatever you do you have a big disadvantage.
And Infils can choose where to fight against resistant armor

Tue 14 May 2019 7:56 PM by Kappu

I never said you had good stats based on weapon choices, but you do have the option to go a spec line that is good against your counterparts armor types.

If you preplanned your race and starting points you'd be fine there are numerous Kobold SB's that do well and the advantage they get for giving up some strength is the ability to evade more often and have an easier time capping swing speed.

NS and Infs also have dex as a primary stat for one of their weapon lines while SB's are stuck with their primary stat as dex which increases every level but doesn't even affect the spec line the get.

I do? Neither can I see a crush specline for Infils nor blunt for Nightshades

I can't believe you even said this when you have two damage type spec lines while SB's have one.