Buff Changes Take #2

Started 7 May 2019
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
After the friendly feedback in the last thread we're going to do some changes to the announced changes.

Please keep in mind that this change effectively removes all long lasting stat buffs from charges and in order to do this while not taking a buff away entirely, spec AF has to be made available to the other realms. Before this everyone already has access to the 75 delve charge, therefore this is not suddenly giving another realm access to an albion only buff.

Anyways, the two major changes to the last post are:
1) we abandon the 3rd goal, not devaluing existing sc/dq charge items, and make them have the buff potion value thereby effectively removing them
2) all self buffs that aren't already at normal buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example

The two main goals were and still are:
1) If you are grouped with a buffer you are buffed by the buffer and don't need to use any charges / potions except for maybe useless things like str on caster
2) If you are solo / small man without a buffer, you use the combined buff potion and are done

The entire change list:

To achieve the first goal:
1) Increase the available conc by 25%
2) Remove 20 buff cap
3) Small delve increase to the acuity buff
4) Add spec AF to bards and healer

To achieve the second goal:
1) 30% buff of buff potion delve. This means from 65 (base + spec from current buff potion) or 101 (buff potion base + spec charge) to 83 (33 base, 50 spec)
2) haste potion and combo potion use the same haste
3) add appropriate spec AF to combo buff potion

All self buffs that aren't already at buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example, some already are at that level some are not.

Spec AF charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.
Acuity charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.
Dex/Quick charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.
Strength/Con charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.

The existing potions / charges will be automatically changed.


And to address some alternative suggestions:
1) Just increase the charge timer
This would alleviate the juggling problem but you still have the 2 - 3x charge timer preparation time until you are ready

2) Remove the charge timer
Would remove juggling, make everyone always have all charges up and be rather expensive

3) Reduce charge cost
Alone it doesn't address much, combined with 2 makes that more bearable but also makes it even more likely everyone uses those 2 to 3 items when starting a run.

2 and 3 together is effectively what this change does except in a nerfed variant (stat wise) and without having to use multiple items while keeping the charge cost for in combat use charges like mana or heal things.
Tue 7 May 2019 9:01 AM by amoz
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
2) Remove the charge timer
Would remove juggling, make everyone always have all charges up and be rather expensive

This would also go back to the beta stage when grps stopped running shamans/nurt druids. Kudos for not falling for that.
Tue 7 May 2019 9:15 AM by Lev
not my favorite way to solve this, but i like it a lot more than #1
i could even see this going live.

btw. lots of crying inc about "i payed so many feathers for this and that". well this isn't a static server, it should be obvious for all now.
i still like a free respec (spec&RA) if this goes live as it changes quite some things.
Tue 7 May 2019 9:16 AM by CarniX
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
4) Add spec AF to bards and healer

Why bard and healer? Give it to the primary buffers druid and shaman.

And where is conc based haste buff for albion?
Tue 7 May 2019 9:22 AM by Lollie
CarniX wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 9:16 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
4) Add spec AF to bards and healer

Why bard and healer? Give it to the primary buffers druid and shaman.

And where is conc based haste buff for albion?

I'm assume because shamans and druids have enough to buff and healers/bards have conc left over
Tue 7 May 2019 9:33 AM by teiloh
I understand buff charges are not meant to be as strong as a primary buffer - but could the stats be increased a little bit (from 30% to say 35 or 40%)?

Potion buffed players get stomped really hard by player buffed players. IMO the changes highlight a need for Alb to have a more viable 2nd buffer, and for Smite to be a better line. Enhance has heal proc as an advantage, but Smite being weak compared to the closest class equivalent (Druid) is a huge disadvantage.
Tue 7 May 2019 9:45 AM by Tamy
Sorry...but why?

Melee-Dmg for Soloplayers gets crippled twice -> every player now runs with a free AF-Spec Buff (no, not everyone was running AF-Spec!) and the Soloplayer does less Dmg against them (due to lower stats because of missing 75 delve items). Longer fights -> more adds...not to mention that if I want to join a Zerg/Groupfight I do less Dmg as well.

You just take out such a strategic and interesting feature with this change that I really don't know if I will enjoy this server as much as I did before. You just make it more simple and fill the cap between the player who wants to get everything out of his char (and invested time, gold and feathers for that) and the casual player (same goes for the haste pot btw). I consider myself to be somewhere in between since I'm not using 3 Charges, but 2 Charges most of the time.

Now I should just /use my Pot who gives me everything (but less of it) and /use one item infight...boring.

It was never the case that a player who only run the combined buff pot was totally gimp and couldn't kill anything. But there was always the small but noticeable cap between charges and combined buffs and if you wanted them you had to invest into them (strategic- and gold-wise).

I like the regular Buff Changes for Groups (although I do not really get your argument -> everybody uses AF-Charge in Group so lets just give it to Bard/Healer for free) but your second "goal" regarding Charges is just a totally unnecessary change. Furthermore you take out a crucial part of spending ingame gold (no, more gold for everybody is not always better...see Hibernia).

I know it's not a democracy and I really appreciate your work for this server (it's like a second youth for me regarding PC-Games) but a poll would probably just be the right way to do it in this case (for both Goals separately).
Tue 7 May 2019 10:03 AM by Seal
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
All self buffs that aren't already at buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example, some already are at that level some are not.

need clarification on this point (meaning which buff for example goes on 75 delve that are currently not)
i can see only champion getting it increased but i may be missing something here

edit : guess also it is for hunter/ranger but will then all spec levels selfbuffs based on a 75 delve on level 50 ? meaning a spec level 49 will be delve 73 if it wasnt before and so on ?
Tue 7 May 2019 10:28 AM by Bradekes
Tamy wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 9:45 AM
Melee-Dmg for Soloplayers gets crippled twice -> every player now runs with a free AF-Spec Buff (no, not everyone was running AF-Spec!) and the Soloplayer does less Dmg against them (due to lower stats because of missing 75 delve items). Longer fights -> more adds...not to mention that if I want to join a Zerg/Groupfight I do less Dmg as well.


Spec AF was available on live at 1.65 so to try and stay true to that patch level they did it this way.. He already said they were not giving something that wasn't already available.. They want to remove stat charges because that is what a lot of players are requesting...

Also to give buffers a place over the stat pots they have to give every realms buffers spec AF so they feel compensated for their diminished class skills...

Server population would continue to decline and the ones left would all be running the spec AF charge anyways so you'd have to get used to it anyways...

How about you take into consideration that these people actually took the time to listen to the population of their server which has actually made this change a lot better than it was going to be...
Tue 7 May 2019 10:29 AM by Gotmagi
I feel like this is a fairly good solution. Balancing out the selfbuff delves sounds very nice and makes some speclines more useful.
Tue 7 May 2019 10:46 AM by Warlay
Honestly it's still a joke as a solo stealther player, I'm a sb. we even don't have the max str/con with this change whereas we already have lack of str and lack of damage compared to other realms.

As Tammy stated you do overall less damage which means you get more zerged cause the fight will be longer.

Again, you will lose players with that
Tue 7 May 2019 10:53 AM by amoz
Warlay wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 10:46 AM
Honestly it's still a joke as a solo stealther player, I'm a sb. we even don't have the max str/con with this change whereas we already have lack of str and lack of damage compared to other realms.

Not correct. You will lose some dmg due to less str/qui but you will also gain some dmg due to lower spec af value.
Maybe it's not 1:1 ratio but it's definately not negligible.
Tue 7 May 2019 10:56 AM by Warlay
SB is so gimp on this server every nerf hit us, so yes I'm right
Tue 7 May 2019 11:04 AM by amoz
Warlay wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 10:56 AM
SB is so gimp on this server every nerf hit us, so yes I'm right

Great argument /s
Tue 7 May 2019 11:06 AM by Tyrlaan
Tamy wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 9:45 AM
Now I should just /use my Pot who gives me everything (but less of it) and /use one item infight...boring.

Agree. It dumbs down the game IMO.

Regarding giving AF to Bards and Healers: not everybody was running it as a charge, so this is increasing availability in these realms of something that was initially Alb-only (in fact I see the other realms have more conc to give it to everyone since their 2ndary buffer gets it, kinda like handing out RAs to other realms they sometimes went to classes more likely to encounter). How about making it Cleric/Paladin and the couple self buff classes only again? The Paladin and the Ranger/Hunter/Friar spec lines certainly could use something to make them worthwhile. The higher than pot delve at level 50 isn't cutting it, many don't spec that high into PF/BC/Enh.
Tue 7 May 2019 11:11 AM by Sepplord
This proposal is much better than the first, thank you for taking the massive feedback against the charges seriously

The reduced stats make sense, otherwise the mainbuffers shaman/druid/cleric wouldn't have any reason anymore to spec their enhancement lines. It might be a small cut for us soloers/smallmen, but we will have to wait and see how it plays out. The new convenience and no-charge-juggling anymore is a huge benefit.

Decreasing the gap between the casuals and the hardcore is probably also a good thing for the overall serverpopulation, that the harcores have individuals that are heavily against the casuals having ebtter fighting chances is to be expected.


I am ofocurse crying on one eye about the sunk cost of all my charge-items, but i'll get over it, and the current solution is better than the first proposal. I just wonder what will happen to inflation, but i am sure you have that in the back of your head and will find ways to give us other holes we can throw our plats into
Tue 7 May 2019 11:31 AM by relvinian
Effectively removing the charge items is not a big deal but what about people who used them in their temps and could have used other items or maybe still want to use them?

I play a necromancer 24/7, lol literally sometimes. I don't use charge items because i got tired of paying the 10 gold and i just use pots. Like right now i use enlightenment kegs. I don't use combined forces but i use kegs of invigoration and replenishment, heal and power.

The only real effect on me for this change will be better accuity and the potential for some opponents to take less dmg and do more damage to me. Fine.

Will there be any real harm to players with this change, concerning the charge items?
Tue 7 May 2019 11:38 AM by inoeth
really like this version!

finally also self buff values get increased, therfore specing self buff lines finally makes sense yay!
Tue 7 May 2019 11:56 AM by Tamy
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 10:28 AM
Tamy wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 9:45 AM
Melee-Dmg for Soloplayers gets crippled twice -> every player now runs with a free AF-Spec Buff (no, not everyone was running AF-Spec!) and the Soloplayer does less Dmg against them (due to lower stats because of missing 75 delve items). Longer fights -> more adds...not to mention that if I want to join a Zerg/Groupfight I do less Dmg as well.


Spec AF was available on live at 1.65 so to try and stay true to that patch level they did it this way.. He already said they were not giving something that wasn't already available.. They want to remove stat charges because that is what a lot of players are requesting...

Also to give buffers a place over the stat pots they have to give every realms buffers spec AF so they feel compensated for their diminished class skills...

Server population would continue to decline and the ones left would all be running the spec AF charge anyways so you'd have to get used to it anyways...

How about you take into consideration that these people actually took the time to listen to the population of their server which has actually made this change a lot better than it was going to be...

I have absolutely no idea what your statement regarding Spec AF for Buffers and its availability has to do with the part of my text (my own opinion) which you quoted.

However, regarding the changes for "Goal No.1" I have no real issues (since I'm almost never grouped with a buffer, so I don't feel in the right place to give a statement to that). I just did not understand the justification.

Regarding charges and the players who are requesting it: Proof? Was there a poll?
Tue 7 May 2019 12:00 PM by Tamy
amoz wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 10:53 AM
Warlay wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 10:46 AM
Honestly it's still a joke as a solo stealther player, I'm a sb. we even don't have the max str/con with this change whereas we already have lack of str and lack of damage compared to other realms.

Not correct. You will lose some dmg due to less str/qui but you will also gain some dmg due to lower spec af value.
Maybe it's not 1:1 ratio but it's definately not negligible.

Again: I think it's a totally false assumption to think that every enemy was running a Spec-AF charge.
Although you are right regarding fights vs. the serious soloplayers. But I don't know how to weigh that to each other. And that's my point: There wasn't a problem anyway and now we are discussing about such things...
Tue 7 May 2019 12:02 PM by Bradekes
Tamy wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 11:56 AM
Regarding charges and the players who are requesting it: Proof? Was there a poll?

There are plenty of complaints about juggling /use and pots on the forums.. Pretty easy to find, I read a lot on here so I've seen it along with the devs who probably wouldn't be making this change if they hadn't got enough feedback you know..
Tue 7 May 2019 12:05 PM by Exarcia
This seems like a better solution.

Can you consider granting a free race and/or starting stat respec for those wanting to re-optimize?
Tue 7 May 2019 12:06 PM by Tamy
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 12:02 PM
Tamy wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 11:56 AM
Regarding charges and the players who are requesting it: Proof? Was there a poll?

There are plenty of complaints about juggling /use and pots on the forums.. Pretty easy to find, I read a lot on here so I've seen it along with the devs who probably wouldn't be making this change if they hadn't got enough feedback you know..

Ok, so no proof. Thank you for answering indirectly.

I would love to see a poll and if the outcome would be really that obvious as you are predicting.
Tue 7 May 2019 12:07 PM by amoz
Tamy wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 12:00 PM
Again: I think it's a totally false assumption to think that every enemy was running a Spec-AF charge.

Every relevant enemy is using Spec AF charges.
Tue 7 May 2019 12:07 PM by hellcon
Interesting. Assuming they follow through completely that means:

Paladin's AF - 64delve from 56 (currently lower than Ranger's AF)

Ranger AF - unchanged or a decrease of 1
Rangers DQ - 72delve from 48

Hunter AF - 63delve from 52
Hunter DQ - 75delve from 50

Friar AF - 67delve from 58
Friar DQ - 67delve unchanged or decrease from 69

Champ SC - 75delve from 62
Tue 7 May 2019 12:16 PM by Ceen
amoz wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 12:07 PM
Tamy wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 12:00 PM
Again: I think it's a totally false assumption to think that every enemy was running a Spec-AF charge.

Every relevant enemy is using Spec AF charges.
But the RPs are made by the none relevant once in order to compete with the relevant once
I think less than 10 % of the player base used AF charge, cause people are that stupid/lazy ^^
Tue 7 May 2019 12:20 PM by Bradekes
Tamy wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 12:06 PM
Ok, so no proof. Thank you for answering indirectly.

I would love to see a poll and if the outcome would be really that obvious as you are predicting.

I guess I just don't understand your problem with the change.. You're pretty unreasonable... I'm not going to search the forums for you.. I'm at work and as a working man I enjoy the changes to my casual playstyle
Tue 7 May 2019 12:23 PM by Arkeon
Ceen wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 12:16 PM
amoz wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 12:07 PM
Tamy wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 12:00 PM
Again: I think it's a totally false assumption to think that every enemy was running a Spec-AF charge.

Every relevant enemy is using Spec AF charges.
But the RPs are made by the none relevant once in order to compete with the relevant once
I think less than 10 % of the player base used AF charge, cause people are that stupid/lazy ^^

I imagine, how difficult it is to take a single quest step for the chest
Tue 7 May 2019 12:27 PM by Yokahu
Great changes, thank you!
I hope this version makes it

I’ve been waiting for a level playing field ever since buffbots were a thing in DAoC! I’m pretty excited!
Tue 7 May 2019 12:38 PM by noobino
GOOD CALL NOT ADDING THE 20% MELEE/MAGIC RESIST CHARGES

Sure some RA's, starting stats and Temp items will need to be adjusted and TTK will likely raise a bit here, but nothing drastic like it could have been. Overall a good long term QoL fix that I think more people will be happy with once the dust settles on this issue.
Tue 7 May 2019 12:43 PM by Estat
YAY for hunter/ranger love!

The rest of the changes seems fair and a good solution for the given design

I like the fact that s/c and d/c charges can still be used to rebuff while potion is on timer.

I would prefer a slightly different solution (and slightly different design goals):

Leave spec AF as it is now. Groups in Mid and Hib could charge to get spec AF and soloers would have the option to use the charge if they want to get the top buffs. Classes with a casted spec AF like archers or friars would have a slight advantage because of it.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:00 PM by PingGuy
I think this is the best compromise that was possible. I will definitely be buying potions now, and leveling my Ranger.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:01 PM by djegu
Warlay wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 10:56 AM
SB is so gimp on this server every nerf hit us, so yes I'm right

it's not because you are bad at your char that SB are gimped on this server, actually SB are on the top of the food chain regarding stealth war so yeah i really don't understand where SB are gimped
Tue 7 May 2019 1:06 PM by buddhazeng
SO how about making the combined forces something i can use in combat, or do i now have to get single line pots for those long fights? will those single line pots also get buffed? or will they be gimped compared to combined forces? one min can be a long time to to rebuff after combat, or say theres a few mins left and a fight starts and you get hit before you get a CF pot off you can get caught without buffs for abit, so i would let them be used anytime or just dont do any of these silly changes
and do i get feathers back from all my charges?
Tue 7 May 2019 1:08 PM by Mavella
Not thrilled at the prospect of losing 80~ stats for the sake of "convenience" and every solo/smallman fight being decided by who has their DA or Legion heal charge off cooldown.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:15 PM by florin
1. Is necro considered a self buffing class and will it get higher delve?
2. This is still a nerf disguised as a QoL - I don't know anyone who asked for reduced stats.
3. Having no trade in for these charge item is a failure as well.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:20 PM by noobino
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:08 PM
Not thrilled at the prospect of losing 80~ stats for the sake of "convenience" and every solo/smallman fight being decided by who has their DA or Legion heal charge off cooldown.

What 80 stats? We're going from 101 to 83. You're losing 18. You're also gaining spec AF and 17% haste off Combined forces. No more haste pots required.

Additionally, its not just you losing stats -- Everyone is losing stats. We're all going to be in the same place we're in now, just with ever so slight min/max adjustments.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:21 PM by relvinian
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:15 PM
1. Is necro considered a self buffing class and will it get higher delve?
2. This is still a nerf disguised as a QoL - I don't know anyone who asked for reduced stats.
3. Having no trade in for these charge item is a failure as well.

Necro is a self buff class, imo.

I have 48 dex 42 str 43 str/con and 26 dex/quick with my own somewhat weird spec.

That is for my pet.

It's not a nerf for many but a buff, as they can now just run pots, and will have to farm less to pvp.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:22 PM by florin
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:20 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:08 PM
Not thrilled at the prospect of losing 80~ stats for the sake of "convenience" and every solo/smallman fight being decided by who has their DA or Legion heal charge off cooldown.

What 80 stats? We're going from 101 to 83. You're losing 18. You're also gaining spec AF and 17% haste off Combined forces. No more haste pots required.

Additionally, its not just you losing stats -- Everyone is losing stats. We're all going to be in the same place we're in now, just with ever so slight min/max adjustments.

18 str
18 con
18 dex
25 qui
Tue 7 May 2019 1:25 PM by florin
relvinian wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:21 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:15 PM
1. Is necro considered a self buffing class and will it get higher delve?
2. This is still a nerf disguised as a QoL - I don't know anyone who asked for reduced stats.
3. Having no trade in for these charge item is a failure as well.

Necro is a self buff class, imo.

I have 48 dex 42 str 43 str/con and 26 dex/quick with my own somewhat weird spec.

That is for my pet.

It's not a nerf for many but a buff, as they can now just run pots, and will have to farm less to pvp.

Players like myself who ran all charges and got multiple ones for extended rvr - say DF camping are the ones who get the schaft
Tue 7 May 2019 1:30 PM by noobino
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:22 PM
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:20 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:08 PM
Not thrilled at the prospect of losing 80~ stats for the sake of "convenience" and every solo/smallman fight being decided by who has their DA or Legion heal charge off cooldown.

What 80 stats? We're going from 101 to 83. You're losing 18. You're also gaining spec AF and 17% haste off Combined forces. No more haste pots required.

Additionally, its not just you losing stats -- Everyone is losing stats. We're all going to be in the same place we're in now, just with ever so slight min/max adjustments.

18 str
18 con
18 dex
25 qui

That's fair. But again, we're all dealing with it so remember if you feel gimped your enemies are too.

I ran with all charges and haste/shield too. I dunno what initiated this change, but whatever.... It is what it is.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:33 PM by Glimmer
So only for scouts it's a nerf compared to other 2 archers(ranger/hunt) less dex from d/q charge means even less now dmg and def.(If i understand these information correctly) In that case not nice !
Tue 7 May 2019 1:37 PM by Tamy
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 12:20 PM
Tamy wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 12:06 PM
Ok, so no proof. Thank you for answering indirectly.

I would love to see a poll and if the outcome would be really that obvious as you are predicting.

I guess I just don't understand your problem with the change.. You're pretty unreasonable... I'm not going to search the forums for you.. I'm at work and as a working man I enjoy the changes to my casual playstyle

I stated my opinion and it seems other people understood it. So I will not bother explaining it again and of course I understand that not everybody agrees on it.

Don't waste your precious time, gathering some forum posts that endorse your assumption isn't proof anyway. That's why I was saying that I would welcome a poll and how clear the result would be.

@Glimmer: Yeah I noticed that now as well. But we were so overpowered anyway.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:42 PM by Mavella
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:20 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:08 PM
Not thrilled at the prospect of losing 80~ stats for the sake of "convenience" and every solo/smallman fight being decided by who has their DA or Legion heal charge off cooldown.

What 80 stats? We're going from 101 to 83. You're losing 18. You're also gaining spec AF and 17% haste off Combined forces. No more haste pots required.

Additionally, its not just you losing stats -- Everyone is losing stats. We're all going to be in the same place we're in now, just with ever so slight min/max adjustments.

Your frist question was addressed by others. Also show me where devs state all haste pots are going up to 17% rather than down to 11% or at some point in between.

Also not EVERYONE will have lower stats those running in full groups/small mans with druids/sham/cleric will have higher specs and the gulf will be even greater now than it was. Obviously there needs to be an advantage/convenience factor to running to classes/specs but making it a 100+ Stat advantage across the group is just going to decrease the odds of victory to those those unfortunate to not have the opportunity to or unwilling to group with those classes for arbitrary reasons.

Were going to go from charge juggling to preloading ablative, legion charge, da charge, DD charges, or whatever else to try and ensure victory. This change isn't going to alter the behavior of people that will do anything to increase their odds of winning besides nerfing their stats for no reason and giving them more opportunity to pop "cooldowns"
Tue 7 May 2019 1:45 PM by Warlay
djegu wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:01 PM
Warlay wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 10:56 AM
SB is so gimp on this server every nerf hit us, so yes I'm right

it's not because you are bad at your char that SB are gimped on this server, actually SB are on the top of the food chain regarding stealth war so yeah i really don't understand where SB are gimped

lol ^^
Tue 7 May 2019 1:53 PM by noobino
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:42 PM
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:20 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:08 PM
Not thrilled at the prospect of losing 80~ stats for the sake of "convenience" and every solo/smallman fight being decided by who has their DA or Legion heal charge off cooldown.

What 80 stats? We're going from 101 to 83. You're losing 18. You're also gaining spec AF and 17% haste off Combined forces. No more haste pots required.

Additionally, its not just you losing stats -- Everyone is losing stats. We're all going to be in the same place we're in now, just with ever so slight min/max adjustments.

Your frist question was addressed by others. Also show me where devs state all haste pots are going up to 17% rather than down to 11% or at some point in between.

Also not EVERYONE will have lower stats those running in full groups/small mans with druids/sham/cleric will have higher specs and the gulf will be even greater now than it was. Obviously there needs to be an advantage/convenience factor to running to classes/specs but making it a 100+ Stat advantage across the group is just going to decrease the odds of victory to those those unfortunate to not have the opportunity to or unwilling to group with those classes for arbitrary reasons.

Were going to go from charge juggling to preloading ablative, legion charge, da charge, DD charges, or whatever else to try and ensure victory. This change isn't going to alter the behavior of people that will do anything to increase their odds of winning besides nerfing their stats for no reason and giving them more opportunity to pop "cooldowns"

That's fair. Its assumed the haste % is going to 17 rather than 11, but point still stands even if it goes to 11 we're all dealing with it.

Whats the problem with groups having a stat advantage if they group with a class that gives them stat advantages? Isn't that the point? That's your fault for not running with a shaman/druid/cleric. I'm supposed to be sympathetic towards that ignorance?

Of course nothing will change. That's the idea. We all collectively got hit with a stat nerf together. There is no loss on your end because im not gaining anything on mine. This goes for solo/smallman/idiots who don't group buff classes.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:56 PM by florin
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:53 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:42 PM
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:20 PM
What 80 stats? We're going from 101 to 83. You're losing 18. You're also gaining spec AF and 17% haste off Combined forces. No more haste pots required.

Additionally, its not just you losing stats -- Everyone is losing stats. We're all going to be in the same place we're in now, just with ever so slight min/max adjustments.

Your frist question was addressed by others. Also show me where devs state all haste pots are going up to 17% rather than down to 11% or at some point in between.

Also not EVERYONE will have lower stats those running in full groups/small mans with druids/sham/cleric will have higher specs and the gulf will be even greater now than it was. Obviously there needs to be an advantage/convenience factor to running to classes/specs but making it a 100+ Stat advantage across the group is just going to decrease the odds of victory to those those unfortunate to not have the opportunity to or unwilling to group with those classes for arbitrary reasons.

Were going to go from charge juggling to preloading ablative, legion charge, da charge, DD charges, or whatever else to try and ensure victory. This change isn't going to alter the behavior of people that will do anything to increase their odds of winning besides nerfing their stats for no reason and giving them more opportunity to pop "cooldowns"

That's fair. Its assumed the haste % is going to 17 rather than 11, but point still stands even if it goes to 11 we're all dealing with it.

Whats the problem with groups having a stat advantage if they group with a class that gives them stat advantages? Isn't that the point? That's your fault for not running with a shaman/druid/cleric. I'm supposed to be sympathetic towards that ignorance?

Of course nothing will change. That's the idea. We all collectively got hit with a stat nerf together. There is no loss on your end because im not gaining anything on mine. This goes for solo/smallman/idiots who don't group buff classes.

you're really not adding anything to this conversation.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:58 PM by dstrmberg
Exarcia wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 12:05 PM
This seems like a better solution.

Can you consider granting a free race and/or starting stat respec for tho wanting to re-optimize?

What he said.
Tue 7 May 2019 2:05 PM by noobino
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:56 PM
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:53 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:42 PM
Your frist question was addressed by others. Also show me where devs state all haste pots are going up to 17% rather than down to 11% or at some point in between.

Also not EVERYONE will have lower stats those running in full groups/small mans with druids/sham/cleric will have higher specs and the gulf will be even greater now than it was. Obviously there needs to be an advantage/convenience factor to running to classes/specs but making it a 100+ Stat advantage across the group is just going to decrease the odds of victory to those those unfortunate to not have the opportunity to or unwilling to group with those classes for arbitrary reasons.

Were going to go from charge juggling to preloading ablative, legion charge, da charge, DD charges, or whatever else to try and ensure victory. This change isn't going to alter the behavior of people that will do anything to increase their odds of winning besides nerfing their stats for no reason and giving them more opportunity to pop "cooldowns"

That's fair. Its assumed the haste % is going to 17 rather than 11, but point still stands even if it goes to 11 we're all dealing with it.

Whats the problem with groups having a stat advantage if they group with a class that gives them stat advantages? Isn't that the point? That's your fault for not running with a shaman/druid/cleric. I'm supposed to be sympathetic towards that ignorance?

Of course nothing will change. That's the idea. We all collectively got hit with a stat nerf together. There is no loss on your end because im not gaining anything on mine. This goes for solo/smallman/idiots who don't group buff classes.

you're really not adding anything to this conversation.

I guess I just dont understand where all the crying is coming from. The 20% magic/melee charges was really the only issue with this upcoming change. It's a wash otherwise since we all deal with it. I guess I just can't see the issue here. This is coming from a solo NS who runs all 4 charges, 17% haste, dmg shield and preloads ablative.

meh/10.
Tue 7 May 2019 2:07 PM by Sepplord
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:05 PM
I guess I just dont understand where all the crying is coming from. The 20% magic/melee charges was really the only issue with this upcoming change. It's a wash otherwise since we all deal with it. I guess I just can't see the issue here. This is coming from a solo NS who runs all 4 charges, 17% haste, dmg shield and preloads ablative.

meh/10.

Well, we would also all have had to deal with the resist-charges...but those whines you understand?
I generally agree with you, but just because everyone has to deal with something doesn't mean that everyone should be happy (especially since it impacts everyone a bit different, even if the change is the same on paper)
Tue 7 May 2019 2:10 PM by noobino
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:07 PM
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:05 PM
I guess I just dont understand where all the crying is coming from. The 20% magic/melee charges was really the only issue with this upcoming change. It's a wash otherwise since we all deal with it. I guess I just can't see the issue here. This is coming from a solo NS who runs all 4 charges, 17% haste, dmg shield and preloads ablative.

meh/10.

Well, we would also all have had to deal with the resist-charges...but those whines you understand?


Yes, because that was a TERRIBLE idea to introduce 20% magic/melee charges for 30 seconds. That would change the entire dynamic of rvr for everyone. It would have been a massive change in meta, playstyle, reactives, etc... Those are a ToA-style big deal.

Though an overall stat devaluation across the board for everyone for some QoL adjustments? Sure, whatever. Go for it.
Tue 7 May 2019 2:19 PM by Sepplord
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:10 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:07 PM
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:05 PM
I guess I just dont understand where all the crying is coming from. The 20% magic/melee charges was really the only issue with this upcoming change. It's a wash otherwise since we all deal with it. I guess I just can't see the issue here. This is coming from a solo NS who runs all 4 charges, 17% haste, dmg shield and preloads ablative.

meh/10.

Well, we would also all have had to deal with the resist-charges...but those whines you understand?


Yes, because that was a TERRIBLE idea to introduce 20% magic/melee charges for 30 seconds. That would change the entire dynamic of rvr for everyone. It would have been a massive change in meta, playstyle, reactives, etc... Those are a ToA-style big deal.

Though an overall stat devaluation across the board for everyone for some QoL adjustments? Sure, whatever. Go for it.

But now you are only applying your own opinion (which i agree with btw.), to justify the hypocrisy
The people complaining believe the newly announced changes are also terrible
You can't simply dismiss some peoples arguments with : everyone gets the same, no reason to whine....and then turn around and go "this is different because I believe it is" on a different issue that would also impact everyone the same.

Well you can, but then you look like a .....
Tue 7 May 2019 2:21 PM by florin
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:10 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:07 PM
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:05 PM
I guess I just dont understand where all the crying is coming from. The 20% magic/melee charges was really the only issue with this upcoming change. It's a wash otherwise since we all deal with it. I guess I just can't see the issue here. This is coming from a solo NS who runs all 4 charges, 17% haste, dmg shield and preloads ablative.

meh/10.

Well, we would also all have had to deal with the resist-charges...but those whines you understand?


Yes, because that was a TERRIBLE idea to introduce 20% magic/melee charges for 30 seconds. That would change the entire dynamic of rvr for everyone. It would have been a massive change in meta, playstyle, reactives, etc... Those are a ToA-style big deal.

Though an overall stat devaluation across the board for everyone for some QoL adjustments? Sure, whatever. Go for it.

Not that I agree with the resists but they were secondary tier - (applying to the damage remaining after the first tier is reduced)
Would be interested in the math but I have a feeling the stat decrease will hurt some classes more than the resists buff - over time.
Tue 7 May 2019 2:27 PM by cere2
I must say, well done Dev's.
I think this will help put more battles in the I won because of RNG/Skill instead of I won because of my charges that were up.

Thanks for listening.
Tue 7 May 2019 2:33 PM by Mavella
So we opt to deploy a nerf to stats across the board because reasons and instead of doing the logical thing and not making leigion/DA on a 10 min cooldown they will need to be used every. single. fight. or your likely hood of losing increases as dramatically just as if you weren't full buffed running out of the PK. We're just trading one must have/do for another and nerfing smallmen/solos vs fgs for the hell of it. This isn't making the game any more convenient it's just changing the parameters you have to adhere to or else you're at a disadvantage.

Don't nerf the total stats that potion gives. Do add longer cooldown to legion/DA/ablative charges. Do keep Stat charges available to people can pop one after a PR if needed. Do Keep the QoL stuff for buffers/self buffers as they should get some added convenience as well.
Tue 7 May 2019 2:35 PM by Eldoktor
doing shit again and again!
What's the point to remove 75 charges
They existed before and still should exist.

You're taking a Broadsword BS path as the time goes.....
No wonder why population decrease guys.

as for the AF it was available if you wanted to optimize !
This change is just a freaking nerf for anyone except the random zergers afk task!

Thx to make this server going worse patch after patch!
Tue 7 May 2019 2:38 PM by Turt
CarniX wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 9:16 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
4) Add spec AF to bards and healer

Why bard and healer? Give it to the primary buffers druid and shaman.

And where is conc based haste buff for albion?

why in the world would you want a conc based haste when the theurgist has timers they can give to anyone and not just their grp?
Tue 7 May 2019 2:46 PM by Druth
Turt wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:38 PM
why in the world would you want a conc based haste when the theurgist has timers they can give to anyone and not just their grp?

How dare you suppress their right to complain???
Tue 7 May 2019 2:47 PM by Dominus
when is the wonderful change schedule to go live?
Tue 7 May 2019 2:55 PM by Tamtrooper
With the removal of the 20% resist charges I'm on board with this--thank you for listening! I will now whine about the feathers I've spent getting 8 charge items for my toons and like 8 more for friends. Any chance of a refund?
Tue 7 May 2019 2:58 PM by pzeub
Dear mods / leaders / gods,

I don't usually post (here), and I have to say I'm quiet happy since you released Phoenix to be able to play on my favorite game of all.
Yet, I'm not sure to understand your motivation when it comes to this particular change.

Is it that:
- You're not happy to have soloer (aka casuals) around?
- You're not happy to have smallmen (aka casuals) around?
- You're afraid of loosing population and you want to enforce people to playing buses?
- You think "teams" should be rekt when outnumbered?

For most of people like me, father and working, I have few minuits per day to play. Yet I enjoy doing so. Most of my companions of former Brocéliande/Ys/Orcanie/Carnac are. We were happy to be capable of soloing, knowing that we could be outnumbered and killed at anytime. But we could still try some 1vX as we are starting on the same basis.

I started as a Nightshade, because I've always thought that assassins should be the best at soloing. So I leveled one, stuffed one. Took me ages. You then decided to nerf viper and chain dot. My NS was not anymore what I wanted to play. I didn't mind that much, because that's the beauty of DAoC and other games, it's called balance changes.

So I reroll visibles, because as it was in Ywain after dot nerf, visible became neet at soloing. I stuffed them, took me time, took me money, took me sleeping hours. But fine, I had great chars well temped.

My NS and visibles are all runing with s/c, d/q, spec AF and haste charges and pots.

But now you're introducing changes. It's not anymore about balance, it's just about more unbalanced changes. If anyone with a healer class in a group (N number of people) becomes even more powerfull than people in a N-1 grp. Meaning, you can't win 1vX anymore. You can't win N-1 vs V anymore.

Meaning I can't play anymore. Because all fights will be unfair. It will be just about who has more companions. But the population is decreasing. So do you think people will stay in the lesser group ? The lesser realm?

I can't wait to hearing from you and your motivations.

Cheers-
Tue 7 May 2019 3:00 PM by Bicstor
Devaluing/Removing the s/c and d/q charges honestly feels like a slap in the face. My time in game that I spent farming either the items directly or feathers to buy said items has essentially been rendered null and void. How i originally specced my SB(and other classes) was built around +75 equipped items and +75 charges, so that has been trashed as well.

Leave them as they are, those who cant be bothered juggling around timers or feel that they arent prepared to pay the recharge costs, do not have to use them.

It feels like you are trying to level a playing field when you shouldnt be.

Having said that, at least you are trying to improve the server and are listening to your player base as evidenced by the amended changes. So thanks for that.
Tue 7 May 2019 3:01 PM by kratoxin
Good changes thank you!
Tue 7 May 2019 3:09 PM by Ashenspire
Bicstor wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 3:00 PM
Devaluing/Removing the s/c and d/q charges honestly feels like a slap in the face. My time in game that I spent farming either the items directly or feathers to buy said items has essentially been rendered null and void. How i originally specced my SB(and other classes) was built around +75 equipped items and +75 charges, so that has been trashed as well.

Leave them as they are, those who cant be bothered juggling around timers or feel that they arent prepared to pay the recharge costs, do not have to use them.

It feels like you are trying to level a playing field when you shouldnt be.

Having said that, at least you are trying to improve the server and are listening to your player base as evidenced by the amended changes. So thanks for that.

Items get tossed aside all the time in MMOs. This has been a thing forever. You used them for awhile, you had an advantage because of them. That's what you paid for. They're devalued now, but they still served a purpose.
Tue 7 May 2019 3:13 PM by Keltar
I like this revised version, but it lacks one thing.

To me, it makes no sense that even if I were to spend 34 points on MoArcane 9 I can't cap out yellow str/con. Acuity, jury's still out since you're buffing its value so it may be attainable.

I get it, they aren't red buffs. But it feels like with the absence of +buff value items, which opens up the door to a whole other ToA can of worm, that high buff spec buffers who can do red buffs should be able to cap without any MoArcane, yellow buffs should cap with MoArcane 6-7 and blue buffs can't cap even with MoArcane 9 but would still be in a good option (higher than pots) if you invest 34 points in it.

Agreed that it sucks for those who got specific items with the current meta in the game, but also agreed that it's the nature of MMOs. But a set of respecs should be tossed around, though.

PS: Yellow D/Q caps at MoArcane 8, or is short 2 points at MoArcane 7 as it is. Yellow S/C reaches 89 (out of 93) with MoArcane 9. Acuity right now can only reach 84 with MoArcane 9 on the red buff so the change is a necessity. Most people would prefer running charges there.
Tue 7 May 2019 3:16 PM by Eldoktor
people whining about spec buff not getting+93...You couldn't have it back in the days! This cap was TOA made!
With 25% buff
Otherwise nobody ever had itbefore except buffbots!

The major change is the big FCK to soloers and small running charges, people took hours to farm and get it, and now they just SAY FCK U to those people ?
basicaly it's just a free rps for zergers ....But yeah guess the server is all about DUMBASS zergers afk task etc etc.

Now i see that!
Tue 7 May 2019 3:25 PM by Kalinda
Thanks for the change.

Pretty sure 80% of those who are crying are the sb/ns/infi but you are too overpowered anyway so lets all thanks the dev !
Tue 7 May 2019 3:35 PM by necrolove1
Will you make Necro pet buffs for DQ and SC baseline and with these added Delves? or make Dq/ dex transfer to pet from shade? cuz now literally every caster is gonna be at 75 dexquick pot charges, while necro has a green/blue Dexquick on pet at all times.
Tue 7 May 2019 3:36 PM by Keltar
Eldoktor wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 3:16 PM
people whining about spec buff not getting+93...You couldn't have it back in the days! This cap was TOA made!
With 25% buff
Otherwise nobody ever had itbefore except buffbots!

The major change is the big FCK to soloers and small running charges, people took hours to farm and get it, and now they just SAY FCK U to those people ?
basicaly it's just a free rps for zergers ....But yeah guess the server is all about DUMBASS zergers afk task etc etc.

Now i see that!

Never said it wasn't something you could achieve "back in the days", but that's what is nice about Phoenix... we don't have to live in the past! The cap exists, why not make it a thing? Whining? You're allowed to see it that way, but I'm not the one using capitalized words to express my deep feelings on this one.

PS: Small man can fill buffs up no problem, by the way. I can fully buff a 6-man group but may have to forego haste which is charged. This change wouldn't affect anything except let me possibly be able to fully buff an 8-man but that would depend on the setup of the group.
Tue 7 May 2019 4:00 PM by gorakthemighty
Rip smallman who don't have a buffer around, time to move on
Tue 7 May 2019 4:24 PM by Vkejai
I still cant see WHY this change is needed ....
Tue 7 May 2019 4:29 PM by FFpheonix
This seems like the way Charge Items should've been implemented from the start. Good work.

I really hate the "Who Gets My Buffs" mini game, so please implement the buffing changes for my Shaman.
Tue 7 May 2019 4:32 PM by Yokahu
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 4:24 PM
I still cant see WHY this change is needed ....
I think the only people that don’t understand why this change is needed are people who always run grouped with a buffer or smallman/solo players that run with all charges up. Which one are you?
Tue 7 May 2019 5:06 PM by cere2
Only people perhaps effected are smallman's that did not run with buffing class/healing class.
You might have won 3v3 if no one had healer/buffer before the changes....
18 more stats in a 3v3 or 4v4 in which only one party has a healer/buffer did not decide the outcome of the battle before the changes.
I would say this had the most affect on solo vs solo. Where those stats could actually make the difference. Especially if you had no spec AF charge up.

You were not winning solo vs a smallman before the changes, you won't be after.
You were not winning 3v8 before the changes, you won't be after.
Tue 7 May 2019 5:20 PM by Ceen
Never ending beta kills the server just saying.
Tue 7 May 2019 5:29 PM by Roto23
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
To achieve the second goal:
1) 30% buff of buff potion delve. This means from 65 (base + spec from current buff potion) or 101 (buff potion base + spec charge) to 83 (33 base, 50 spec)


Can some one tell me what this means? I have a d/q draught. I think it delves 42. So when I use it will I get (1.3) x 42 = 55 d/q?
Tue 7 May 2019 5:37 PM by Bradekes
Roto23 wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 5:29 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
To achieve the second goal:
1) 30% buff of buff potion delve. This means from 65 (base + spec from current buff potion) or 101 (buff potion base + spec charge) to 83 (33 base, 50 spec)


Can some one tell me what this means? I have a d/q draught. I think it delves 42. So when I use it will I get (1.3) x 42 = 55 d/q?

Spec Pots and charges will be 50/50...50str/50con 50dex/50qui
Tue 7 May 2019 5:42 PM by Dominus
Tamtrooper wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:55 PM
With the removal of the 20% resist charges I'm on board with this--thank you for listening! I will now whine about the feathers I've spent getting 8 charge items for my toons and like 8 more for friends. Any chance of a refund?


yeah, I bought 2 of each str/con and dex/qui item... silly me. 40k feathers poof!
Tue 7 May 2019 5:44 PM by Roto23
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 5:37 PM
Roto23 wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 5:29 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
To achieve the second goal:
1) 30% buff of buff potion delve. This means from 65 (base + spec from current buff potion) or 101 (buff potion base + spec charge) to 83 (33 base, 50 spec)


Can some one tell me what this means? I have a d/q draught. I think it delves 42. So when I use it will I get (1.3) x 42 = 55 d/q?

Spec Pots and charges will be 50/50...50str/50con 50dex/50qui

thank you.
Tue 7 May 2019 5:48 PM by gruenesschaf
Ceen wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 5:20 PM
Never ending beta kills the server just saying.

Not changing anything kills a server, changing anything kills a server. And the beta argument is bit weird tbh, that means you consider any mmo that ever existed and will exist a perpetual beta?
Tue 7 May 2019 5:52 PM by Kaseylol
Keltar wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 3:13 PM
I like this revised version, but it lacks one thing.

To me, it makes no sense that even if I were to spend 34 points on MoArcane 9 I can't cap out yellow str/con. Acuity, jury's still out since you're buffing its value so it may be attainable.

I get it, they aren't red buffs. But it feels like with the absence of +buff value items, which opens up the door to a whole other ToA can of worm, that high buff spec buffers who can do red buffs should be able to cap without any MoArcane, yellow buffs should cap with MoArcane 6-7 and blue buffs can't cap even with MoArcane 9 but would still be in a good option (higher than pots) if you invest 34 points in it.

Agreed that it sucks for those who got specific items with the current meta in the game, but also agreed that it's the nature of MMOs. But a set of respecs should be tossed around, though.

PS: Yellow D/Q caps at MoArcane 8, or is short 2 points at MoArcane 7 as it is. Yellow S/C reaches 89 (out of 93) with MoArcane 9. Acuity right now can only reach 84 with MoArcane 9 on the red buff so the change is a necessity. Most people would prefer running charges there.

This is also my only problem with this patch. You either run one full enh cleric (or maybe two depending on conc changes) to buff everyone but then you have a stunbot with shit heals and no shears.

Meanwhile hib and mid can run no shaman or druid and just use buff pots, roll dual healer or bard, or add a mana ment, and have insane utility classes while still getting spec af.

I do feel this nerfs alb a lot considering the primary buffer also has spec af, where a high utility class on other realms gets it. Putting skill gap aside, how can an alb group running an enh cleric compete with dual bard or dual healer groups? Even a bonedancer or mana ment add way more utility than an enh cleric and the stat difference from buffpot vs high enh or high MOA cleric is not worth the sacrifice.

Guessing the meta will turn to 42 enh clerics for red int and buff pots for everyone so the spec af cleric can still heal, but it feels a bit unfair to alb.

I do not think a buff pot should be a viable alternative to yellow buffs, especially when those buffs are spread out on high utility classes for two realms (spec af bard healer) but only on clerics in alb

Curious if anyone also sees this issue? I'm thinking a pretty large buff to MOA so that primary buffer classes in all 3 realms can more easily have access to fully capped buffs without sacrificing a shit ton of RAs or spec points would reliably bring back the usefulness of buff classes and help balance the gap between realms.
Tue 7 May 2019 6:03 PM by Warlay
how about, buffpotion buff all buffs like it does know but +75 st/con + 75 dex/qui, heal/ablative charge 20 min reuse timer?
= all are happy => problem solved

but honestly with your first idea of the changes i m a bit confused where you want to go. what comes next, an item which gives an overpowerd hot? a 500 ablative charge? next a stackable 500 melee/magic ablativ charge ? xD
Even the legion item with the heal needed noone and should be removed.
Tue 7 May 2019 6:34 PM by Laviski
personally leave as is but...
if you need to do anything at all

first goal:
1) Increase the available conc by 25%
2) Remove 20 buff cap
3) Small delve increase to the acuity buff
4) Add spec AF to bards and healer

second goal:
1) haste potion and combo potion use the same haste
2) add appropriate spec AF to combo buff potion
Note: note not to increase current buffs from pots...

don't change the items.
making farming pve etc useful.... hence leave the dex/qui and str/con charge items as is.

obviously this is a free shared but the patch picked is the reason i'm here, please stay true to that version of the game than making wholesale changes.
Tue 7 May 2019 6:36 PM by grated
Good changes. I mostly play solo SB and look forward to not needing to juggle charges.
Tue 7 May 2019 6:42 PM by Turano
Why not just change the buff pots to values that equals the ones we have now with forces + charges.
If your only reason is to get rid of the juggling for convenience , why nerf everyone that does it?

I just don't get what the reason behind it all is
Tue 7 May 2019 6:52 PM by grated
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 6:42 PM
Why not just change the buff pots to values that equals the ones we have now with forces + charges.
If your only reason is to get rid of the juggling for convenience , why nerf everyone that does it?

I just don't get what the reason behind it all is

The details are in the first post of this thread and the previous thread. What details are missing, what do you disagree with?
Tue 7 May 2019 7:04 PM by Mavella
grated wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 6:52 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 6:42 PM
Why not just change the buff pots to values that equals the ones we have now with forces + charges.
If your only reason is to get rid of the juggling for convenience , why nerf everyone that does it?

I just don't get what the reason behind it all is

The details are in the first post of this thread and the previous thread. What details are missing, what do you disagree with?

Where exactly does it explain and justify why solos/smallmans take an 80 point stat nerf? Just because? I've got not issues buffing up self buffers to be equal or a bit higher than charges if they invest heavily into that line. Why should the rest of us suffer?
Tue 7 May 2019 7:07 PM by florin
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 6:42 PM
Why not just change the buff pots to values that equals the ones we have now with forces + charges.
If your only reason is to get rid of the juggling for convenience , why nerf everyone that does it?

I just don't get what the reason behind it all is

bingo
Tue 7 May 2019 7:10 PM by PingGuy
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 6:42 PM
Why not just change the buff pots to values that equals the ones we have now with forces + charges.
If your only reason is to get rid of the juggling for convenience , why nerf everyone that does it?

I just don't get what the reason behind it all is

Because that screws over buffing classes.
Tue 7 May 2019 7:17 PM by grated
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:04 PM
grated wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 6:52 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 6:42 PM
Why not just change the buff pots to values that equals the ones we have now with forces + charges.
If your only reason is to get rid of the juggling for convenience , why nerf everyone that does it?

I just don't get what the reason behind it all is

The details are in the first post of this thread and the previous thread. What details are missing, what do you disagree with?

Where exactly does it explain and justify why solos/smallmans take an 80 point stat nerf? Just because? I've got not issues buffing up self buffers to be equal or a bit higher than charges if they invest heavily into that line. Why should the rest of us suffer?

They explain why, I think your disagreement is with the justification. How much do you really think it affects small mans?

* The 'have nots' of the charge world get a stat boost, not a nerf.
* Self buffers get a boost so their lines are worth the points.
* Small mans with at least a base buffer will still be better off than those without. It's their goal to make these buffing classes valuable. If you choose not to run one in your small man, that's your choice.

I think it's an interesting problem. The buff system in DAoC is broken IMO, figuring out how to make it sensible is an experiment. Players need to be forced to make choices with consequences - not maxing every stat all the time.
Tue 7 May 2019 7:28 PM by florin
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 5:48 PM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 5:20 PM
Never ending beta kills the server just saying.

Not changing anything kills a server, changing anything kills a server. And the beta argument is bit weird tbh, that means you consider any mmo that ever existed and will exist a perpetual beta?

Tuning is good - this feels like a bait and switch
Tue 7 May 2019 7:41 PM by Azuell
Sorry if this has already been suggested but I'm not going to read through all the complaints of this and the other thread to check.

Instead of making the current d/q str/con charge items worthless, couldn't you change them to heal/end/power charges like legion item? Or maybe not as high delve if you think it's too much. Or even short duration high value regen? I get that this would be similar to the resist buff charges but without adding something completely new which, I think, is what people didn't like about the resist buffs. Everyone is going to be running legion charges now anyways since they don't have to worry about buff charges. You might as well give us something for the feathers we spent.

Change AF/acuity charge items to caster speed or slightly below and charge 20g a pop to recharge, to throw the solo people a bone. Make it 10 sec cast time while stationary. 20 minute duration that you lose on combat. This way people won't always have speed up but gives them an option for long treks.
Tue 7 May 2019 7:42 PM by Mavella
grated wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:17 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:04 PM
grated wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 6:52 PM
The details are in the first post of this thread and the previous thread. What details are missing, what do you disagree with?

Where exactly does it explain and justify why solos/smallmans take an 80 point stat nerf? Just because? I've got not issues buffing up self buffers to be equal or a bit higher than charges if they invest heavily into that line. Why should the rest of us suffer?

They explain why, I think your disagreement is with the justification. How much do you really think it affects small mans?

* The 'have nots' of the charge world get a stat boost, not a nerf.
* Self buffers get a boost so their lines are worth the points.
* Small mans with at least a base buffer will still be better off than those without. It's their goal to make these buffing classes valuable. If you choose not to run one in your small man, that's your choice.

I think it's an interesting problem. The buff system in DAoC is broken IMO, figuring out how to make it sensible is an experiment. Players need to be forced to make choices with consequences - not maxing every stat all the time.

1- if you can't be bothered to farm up the plat or participate in raids to obtain the charge items that is your perogative. Should we lower the ceiling so those that don't want to/are too lazy to template or run combined forces are just as competitive?
2- The classes that have self buffs also come packaged with additional utility that is not added with just combined forces or charges. Do pots/charges devalue the current state of some of the more pathetic buffs? Certainly. It doesn't mean they can't be dialed up without nerfing everyone else.
3. No buffing class is brought along PURELY for its buffs. All of them bring significant utility that is necessary for full groups to be competitive ie heals, cc, speed, pbt, resists, disease. Pots and charges will never make these classes completely obsolete and it's stupid to think so.
Tue 7 May 2019 7:52 PM by Kaseylol
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:42 PM
grated wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:17 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:04 PM
Where exactly does it explain and justify why solos/smallmans take an 80 point stat nerf? Just because? I've got not issues buffing up self buffers to be equal or a bit higher than charges if they invest heavily into that line. Why should the rest of us suffer?

They explain why, I think your disagreement is with the justification. How much do you really think it affects small mans?

* The 'have nots' of the charge world get a stat boost, not a nerf.
* Self buffers get a boost so their lines are worth the points.
* Small mans with at least a base buffer will still be better off than those without. It's their goal to make these buffing classes valuable. If you choose not to run one in your small man, that's your choice.

I think it's an interesting problem. The buff system in DAoC is broken IMO, figuring out how to make it sensible is an experiment. Players need to be forced to make choices with consequences - not maxing every stat all the time.

1- if you can't be bothered to farm up the plat or participate in raids to obtain the charge items that is your perogative. Should we lower the ceiling so those that don't want to/are too lazy to template or run combined forces are just as competitive?
2- The classes that have self buffs also come packaged with additional utility that is not added with just combined forces or charges. Do pots/charges devalue the current state of some of the more pathetic buffs? Certainly. It doesn't mean they can't be dialed up without nerfing everyone else.
3. No buffing class is brought along PURELY for its buffs. All of them bring significant utility that is necessary for full groups to be competitive ie heals, cc, speed, pbt, resists, disease. Pots and charges will never make these classes completely obsolete and it's stupid to think so.

They don't need to make them obsolete, they just need to make them less useful than having a pure healer, dps, or cc rather than a hybrid buffer with all skill and/or realm points into buffing. That's the point here, it's now far too costly to get max buffs from a buffer, especially on alb where a low utility class has all spec buffs, rather than simply running buff pots.

Can you honestly say a theurg, cab, sorc, arms, etc are less useful than a 50 enh cleric? How about a rr5 42 enh cleric with no cure nearsight and all his points in MOA? Is that really preferable to a friar?

Would you really choose a high enh with no ra (all points in MOA) druid over a second bard? How about a mana ment? That's the question here, the trade off for a few extra stat points and a group slot is getting a bit unfair.
Tue 7 May 2019 7:56 PM by Vkejai
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 4:32 PM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 4:24 PM
I still cant see WHY this change is needed ....
I think the only people that don’t understand why this change is needed are people who always run grouped with a buffer or smallman/solo players that run with all charges up. Which one are you?

Solo mostly . Still doesn't answer my confusion about why these are coming into effect ?
Tue 7 May 2019 8:10 PM by grated
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:42 PM
1- if you can't be bothered to farm up the plat or participate in raids to obtain the charge items that is your perogative. Should we lower the ceiling so those that don't want to/are too lazy to template or run combined forces are just as competitive?
2- The classes that have self buffs also come packaged with additional utility that is not added with just combined forces or charges. Do pots/charges devalue the current state of some of the more pathetic buffs? Certainly. It doesn't mean they can't be dialed up without nerfing everyone else.
3. No buffing class is brought along PURELY for its buffs. All of them bring significant utility that is necessary for full groups to be competitive ie heals, cc, speed, pbt, resists, disease. Pots and charges will never make these classes completely obsolete and it's stupid to think so.

You can be a charge 'have not' if your timer is down or you haven't been alive long enough. I don't think I'm lazy for not wanting to manage charges every 2 minutes. It's not a skilled decision and it's not fun. It's an annoying requirement to need a combi buff, endo buff, af buff, str, d/q, haste, damage add, damage turn, etc. up all the time and the devs are right to address it. The argument about templating is a straw man, the two are quite different.

Sure they could dial the other spec lines up without taking charges out. I like that these changes further benefit these classes.

My point on number 3 is addressing your comment on it beings a nerf to small man's. Perhaps you run without spec buffs, that's the sacrifice you make. I don't think anyone here has concerns about these classes becoming obsolete. If anything they would be concerned about clerics spec'ing smite and you know they'll be nuking when they should be healing.
Tue 7 May 2019 8:23 PM by Saroi
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
2) haste potion and combo potion use the same haste


Do you already know how much it will be? Will you make it 11% or 17%? If it gets the lower one of 11%, will this also affect the 17% Alchemy haste charge to be reduced then?
Tue 7 May 2019 8:25 PM by Yokahu
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:56 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 4:32 PM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 4:24 PM
I still cant see WHY this change is needed ....
I think the only people that don’t understand why this change is needed are people who always run grouped with a buffer or smallman/solo players that run with all charges up. Which one are you?

Solo mostly . Still doesn't answer my confusion about why these are coming into effect ?

From my point of view (others and devs might digress), these changes are needed as a QoL and to level the playing field (the latter is what I care about).

For example, I don’t have the time to farm just so I can enjoy RvR, and if I go to the FZ without all the charges up, I get annihilated by other players that do (even lower RR than me). This frustrates me and I end up logging-in less and less until I quit. Every time I quit DAoC I because of that (buffbots in live and in this case it may be, charges).

It all comes down to who have the most charges up. IMO players that RvR with full charges don’t want this change to go live because they don’t want to lose their advantage against casuals that only run one or no charges at all.
Tue 7 May 2019 8:27 PM by florin
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:10 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 6:42 PM
Why not just change the buff pots to values that equals the ones we have now with forces + charges.
If your only reason is to get rid of the juggling for convenience , why nerf everyone that does it?

I just don't get what the reason behind it all is

Because that screws over buffing classes.

I won’t use their buffs anyway since I solo
Tue 7 May 2019 8:32 PM by florin
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:25 PM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:56 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 4:32 PM
I think the only people that don’t understand why this change is needed are people who always run grouped with a buffer or smallman/solo players that run with all charges up. Which one are you?

Solo mostly . Still doesn't answer my confusion about why these are coming into effect ?

From my point of view (others and devs might digress), these changes are needed as a QoL and to level the playing field (the latter is what I care about).

For example, I don’t have the time to farm just so I can enjoy RvR, and if I go to the FZ without all the charges up, I get annihilated by other players that do (even lower RR than me). This frustrates me and I end up logging-in less and less until I quit. Every time I quit DAoC I because of that (buffbots in live and in this case it may be, charges).

It all comes down to who have the most charges up. IMO players that RvR with full charges don’t want this change to go live because they don’t want to lose their advantage against casuals that only run one or no charges at all.

This is socialism. Make the rich poorer instead of making the poor richer.
Tue 7 May 2019 8:41 PM by BisbyHoughton
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:32 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:25 PM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:56 PM
Solo mostly . Still doesn't answer my confusion about why these are coming into effect ?

From my point of view (others and devs might digress), these changes are needed as a QoL and to level the playing field (the latter is what I care about).

For example, I don’t have the time to farm just so I can enjoy RvR, and if I go to the FZ without all the charges up, I get annihilated by other players that do (even lower RR than me). This frustrates me and I end up logging-in less and less until I quit. Every time I quit DAoC I because of that (buffbots in live and in this case it may be, charges).

It all comes down to who have the most charges up. IMO players that RvR with full charges don’t want this change to go live because they don’t want to lose their advantage against casuals that only run one or no charges at all.

This is socialism. Make the rich poorer instead of making the poor richer.

lmao
Tue 7 May 2019 8:44 PM by florin
BisbyHoughton wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:41 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:32 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:25 PM
From my point of view (others and devs might digress), these changes are needed as a QoL and to level the playing field (the latter is what I care about).

For example, I don’t have the time to farm just so I can enjoy RvR, and if I go to the FZ without all the charges up, I get annihilated by other players that do (even lower RR than me). This frustrates me and I end up logging-in less and less until I quit. Every time I quit DAoC I because of that (buffbots in live and in this case it may be, charges).

It all comes down to who have the most charges up. IMO players that RvR with full charges don’t want this change to go live because they don’t want to lose their advantage against casuals that only run one or no charges at all.

This is socialism. Make the rich poorer instead of making the poor richer.

lmao

That’s a fancy staff you got there..not everyone has the time to farm it. Let’s make your fancy staff less fancy to level the playing field. Bleh
Tue 7 May 2019 8:47 PM by BisbyHoughton
I empathize with your concerns even though I don't share them. The socialism analogy was just a direction I did not see this discussion going hence my chuckles. Carry on!
Tue 7 May 2019 8:52 PM by Bicstor
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:25 PM
From my point of view (others and devs might digress), these changes are needed as a QoL and to level the playing field (the latter is what I care about).

For example, I don’t have the time to farm just so I can enjoy RvR, and if I go to the FZ without all the charges up, I get annihilated by other players that do (even lower RR than me). This frustrates me and I end up logging-in less and less until I quit. Every time I quit DAoC I because of that (buffbots in live and in this case it may be, charges).

It all comes down to who have the most charges up. IMO players that RvR with full charges don’t want this change to go live because they don’t want to lose their advantage against casuals that only run one or no charges at all.

So your arguement is that these charge items ruin your enjoyment of game, because you either wont or dont spend the time doing what is needed to be competetive in rvr, so therefore theses charge items need removing from the game.?

So all those who are happy with the way things are or even perhaps prefer to PvE should be denied the choice to use these items because you dont have time to play to your full potential otherwise?
Tue 7 May 2019 8:55 PM by Yokahu
Bicstor wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:52 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:25 PM
From my point of view (others and devs might digress), these changes are needed as a QoL and to level the playing field (the latter is what I care about).

For example, I don’t have the time to farm just so I can enjoy RvR, and if I go to the FZ without all the charges up, I get annihilated by other players that do (even lower RR than me). This frustrates me and I end up logging-in less and less until I quit. Every time I quit DAoC I because of that (buffbots in live and in this case it may be, charges).

It all comes down to who have the most charges up. IMO players that RvR with full charges don’t want this change to go live because they don’t want to lose their advantage against casuals that only run one or no charges at all.

So your arguement is that these charge items ruin your enjoyment of game, because you either wont or dont spend the time doing what is needed to be competetive in rvr, so therefore theses charge items need removing from the game.?

So all those who are happy with the way things are or even perhaps prefer to PvE should be denied the choice to use these items because you dont have time to play to your full potential otherwise?

Yes
Tue 7 May 2019 9:14 PM by ashmir_daoc
Sigh. I feel like you guys (the devs) just don't get it. You originally stated that you didn't want those people who had spent feathers/time/resources to acquire those charge items to feel like they lost something, but you're totally making them lose something. Just make the changes to conc & buff caps, add the extra buffs where you're adding them, and leave the items that people have already purchased alone.

How hard is that?

I absolutely abhor the change to the s/c & d/q items (and now, consequently, the AF & Acuity items). Leave that as an option for people who want to use them. There are good reasons to use them other than saving your buffer conc, both in rvr & pve. Off the top of my head, four reasons:

1) It gives you a chance to get one buff up after a rez. One buff isn't overpowering, but it can be a lot of help.
2) It allows you to run with (at least) one buff up that you don't have to worry about dropping should your buffer die. Often, other support will charge d/q so that if the nurture druid or shaman go down, the disaster of losing the entire group's buffs is felt less.
3) It limits spec options. A nurture druid can go 40 regrowth and 36 nurture to get the cure nearsight and the group can charge the d/q instead of using the druid's blue d/q. With the proposed change, nurture druids will HAVE to spec at least 39 nurture to get yellow d/q to make up for what was lost and in turn not have access to cure nearsight. So a set group with 2 druids might have one cure nearsight while pugs will be hit much harder. This is not a friendly change to either the tryhard groups or the casual groups.
4) In pve, sometimes I like to use my charge items because there's no option of a buffer around. The buff to the combined forces pot is nice, but 10 gold for a recharge vs the cost of a combined reforces barrel? Big difference.

There are more reasons, but I don't want this to turn even longer.

Please do not go forward with this part of the change. This is, to be blunt, a terrible idea. Don't change existing items. Doing that is a fast way to piss off & run off your playerbase.

Good day.
Tue 7 May 2019 9:17 PM by Bradekes
Bicstor wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:52 PM
So all those who are happy with the way things are or even perhaps prefer to PvE should be denied the choice to use these items because you dont have time to play to your full potential otherwise?

I mostly think people don't like to have to micro manage items that are not part of the base kit of a class.. I don't enjoy any game that has uneeded management that distracts me from just enjoying my play time... I'm actually surprised at how many people don't mind this arbitrary chore..
Tue 7 May 2019 9:38 PM by Drominchen
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 9:17 PM
Bicstor wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:52 PM
So all those who are happy with the way things are or even perhaps prefer to PvE should be denied the choice to use these items because you dont have time to play to your full potential otherwise?

I mostly think people don't like to have to micro manage items that are not part of the base kit of a class.. I don't enjoy any game that has uneeded management that distracts me from just enjoying my play time... I'm actually surprised at how many people don't mind this arbitrary chore..

Noone HAS to micro manage his buffs. You are totally fine with combined forces pot + invig pot as long as you don't want to compete with the try hard solo crowd that runs 3 charges all the time. You could also run a self buff class like friar and only charge str/con to have all buffs. People that don't mind this arbitrary chore are those that always want to min/max their chars and cause of this run 3 charges and that are very few.
Tue 7 May 2019 10:43 PM by Bicstor
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 9:17 PM
Bicstor wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:52 PM
So all those who are happy with the way things are or even perhaps prefer to PvE should be denied the choice to use these items because you dont have time to play to your full potential otherwise?

I mostly think people don't like to have to micro manage items that are not part of the base kit of a class.. I don't enjoy any game that has uneeded management that distracts me from just enjoying my play time... I'm actually surprised at how many people don't mind this arbitrary chore..

I dont relish having to monitor the timers on charge items, but I am ok doing it if that is the price I have to pay(along with the charge cost) for having those buffs. I accept it as part of the game, just another challenge.
Tue 7 May 2019 10:56 PM by Bradekes
Drominchen wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 9:38 PM
Noone HAS to micro manage his buffs. You are totally fine with combined forces pot + invig pot as long as you don't want to compete with the try hard solo crowd that runs 3 charges all the time. You could also run a self buff class like friar and only charge str/con to have all buffs. People that don't mind this arbitrary chore are those that always want to min/max their chars and cause of this run 3 charges and that are very few.

Pretty sure no one wants to min their character only max ya know... I also like to max my character but I don't like it to be a hassle or chore and any change that let's me do that and allow me to focus on the fun aspects of the game is appreciated...

It sounds like a bunch of masochists just like the pain.. I don't want to have to be limited to my class choices because of dumb game mechanic. Friars are utterly boring to play...
Tue 7 May 2019 11:01 PM by Bradekes
Bicstor wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 10:43 PM
I dont relish having to monitor the timers on charge items, but I am ok doing it if that is the price I have to pay(along with the charge cost) for having those buffs. I accept it as part of the game, just another challenge.

So you think because you take on the challenge of tedious unneeded tasks that could be made easier you should profit?? What kind of joke is that?? Like your character should be better not by skill but because you've invested more time than others on stat boosts??

Sounds like participation trophy winner of the month 🏆
Wed 8 May 2019 12:06 AM by Dariussdars
Unless I missed it, are damage add charges unchanged?
Wed 8 May 2019 2:46 AM by adrockcafe
Take #2 much better than Take #1, thanks!

Only part I don't get (happy to be set straight if I just misunderstand):
If Hib/Mid gets conc-AF buff, where is Alb conc-CombatSpeed? Hib/Mid don't have to pop AF charges anymore to be "fully buffed" but Alb have to keep popping potions?

Respectfully just don't get that part, thanks in advance. =)
Wed 8 May 2019 2:57 AM by Bradekes
adrockcafe wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:46 AM
Take #2 much better than Take #1, thanks!

Only part I don't get (happy to be set straight if I just misunderstand):
If Hib/Mid gets conc-AF buff, where is Alb conc-CombatSpeed? Hib/Mid don't have to pop AF charges anymore to be "fully buffed" but Alb have to keep popping potions?

Respectfully just don't get that part, thanks in advance. =)

Maybe they could just make bard/Healer AF buff 23min timer no conc like alb haste that'd be cool right?
Wed 8 May 2019 4:04 AM by jelzinga_EU
adrockcafe wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:46 AM
Take #2 much better than Take #1, thanks!

Only part I don't get (happy to be set straight if I just misunderstand):
If Hib/Mid gets conc-AF buff, where is Alb conc-CombatSpeed? Hib/Mid don't have to pop AF charges anymore to be "fully buffed" but Alb have to keep popping potions?

Respectfully just don't get that part, thanks in advance. =)

You have theurgist give out haste-buffs, which is higher baseline than the druid/healer specced conc-buff.
Wed 8 May 2019 5:43 AM by Ceen
Drominchen wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 9:38 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 9:17 PM
Bicstor wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:52 PM
So all those who are happy with the way things are or even perhaps prefer to PvE should be denied the choice to use these items because you dont have time to play to your full potential otherwise?

I mostly think people don't like to have to micro manage items that are not part of the base kit of a class.. I don't enjoy any game that has uneeded management that distracts me from just enjoying my play time... I'm actually surprised at how many people don't mind this arbitrary chore..

Noone HAS to micro manage his buffs. You are totally fine with combined forces pot + invig pot as long as you don't want to compete with the try hard solo crowd that runs 3 charges all the time. You could also run a self buff class like friar and only charge str/con to have all buffs. People that don't mind this arbitrary chore are those that always want to min/max their chars and cause of this run 3 charges and that are very few.
Do we really live in a year in which clicking a button every 2 min is called micro management in games? Ever played StarCraft?
Wed 8 May 2019 7:59 AM by pax
Probably was a good idea to hold the same value of total stats as it was before with combined+charge but anyway is alredy something to let casual gameplay be a little more affordable as people who play daoc is getting older and have less time to invest in less funny activity as farming.

A merchant where we can sell our charge items that are dismissed to have back our value of feathers wasnt a bad idea either but i will accept it anyway, was just a couple of raids anyway..
Wed 8 May 2019 8:11 AM by Sepplord
Kaseylol wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 5:52 PM
Keltar wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 3:13 PM
I like this revised version, but it lacks one thing.

To me, it makes no sense that even if I were to spend 34 points on MoArcane 9 I can't cap out yellow str/con. Acuity, jury's still out since you're buffing its value so it may be attainable.

I get it, they aren't red buffs. But it feels like with the absence of +buff value items, which opens up the door to a whole other ToA can of worm, that high buff spec buffers who can do red buffs should be able to cap without any MoArcane, yellow buffs should cap with MoArcane 6-7 and blue buffs can't cap even with MoArcane 9 but would still be in a good option (higher than pots) if you invest 34 points in it.

Agreed that it sucks for those who got specific items with the current meta in the game, but also agreed that it's the nature of MMOs. But a set of respecs should be tossed around, though.

PS: Yellow D/Q caps at MoArcane 8, or is short 2 points at MoArcane 7 as it is. Yellow S/C reaches 89 (out of 93) with MoArcane 9. Acuity right now can only reach 84 with MoArcane 9 on the red buff so the change is a necessity. Most people would prefer running charges there.

This is also my only problem with this patch. You either run one full enh cleric (or maybe two depending on conc changes) to buff everyone but then you have a stunbot with shit heals and no shears.

Meanwhile hib and mid can run no shaman or druid and just use buff pots, roll dual healer or bard, or add a mana ment, and have insane utility classes while still getting spec af.

I do feel this nerfs alb a lot considering the primary buffer also has spec af, where a high utility class on other realms gets it. Putting skill gap aside, how can an alb group running an enh cleric compete with dual bard or dual healer groups? Even a bonedancer or mana ment add way more utility than an enh cleric and the stat difference from buffpot vs high enh or high MOA cleric is not worth the sacrifice.

Guessing the meta will turn to 42 enh clerics for red int and buff pots for everyone so the spec af cleric can still heal, but it feels a bit unfair to alb.

I do not think a buff pot should be a viable alternative to yellow buffs, especially when those buffs are spread out on high utility classes for two realms (spec af bard healer) but only on clerics in alb

Curious if anyone also sees this issue? I'm thinking a pretty large buff to MOA so that primary buffer classes in all 3 realms can more easily have access to fully capped buffs without sacrificing a shit ton of RAs or spec points would reliably bring back the usefulness of buff classes and help balance the gap between realms.

i can see that happening regarding hibernia, as bards already spec really high in enhancement....but healers? What aughealer will spec to purple specAF? they will also have shitheals then....
Wed 8 May 2019 9:10 AM by Kaseylol
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 8:11 AM
Kaseylol wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 5:52 PM
Keltar wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 3:13 PM
I like this revised version, but it lacks one thing.

To me, it makes no sense that even if I were to spend 34 points on MoArcane 9 I can't cap out yellow str/con. Acuity, jury's still out since you're buffing its value so it may be attainable.

I get it, they aren't red buffs. But it feels like with the absence of +buff value items, which opens up the door to a whole other ToA can of worm, that high buff spec buffers who can do red buffs should be able to cap without any MoArcane, yellow buffs should cap with MoArcane 6-7 and blue buffs can't cap even with MoArcane 9 but would still be in a good option (higher than pots) if you invest 34 points in it.

Agreed that it sucks for those who got specific items with the current meta in the game, but also agreed that it's the nature of MMOs. But a set of respecs should be tossed around, though.

PS: Yellow D/Q caps at MoArcane 8, or is short 2 points at MoArcane 7 as it is. Yellow S/C reaches 89 (out of 93) with MoArcane 9. Acuity right now can only reach 84 with MoArcane 9 on the red buff so the change is a necessity. Most people would prefer running charges there.

This is also my only problem with this patch. You either run one full enh cleric (or maybe two depending on conc changes) to buff everyone but then you have a stunbot with shit heals and no shears.

Meanwhile hib and mid can run no shaman or druid and just use buff pots, roll dual healer or bard, or add a mana ment, and have insane utility classes while still getting spec af.

I do feel this nerfs alb a lot considering the primary buffer also has spec af, where a high utility class on other realms gets it. Putting skill gap aside, how can an alb group running an enh cleric compete with dual bard or dual healer groups? Even a bonedancer or mana ment add way more utility than an enh cleric and the stat difference from buffpot vs high enh or high MOA cleric is not worth the sacrifice.

Guessing the meta will turn to 42 enh clerics for red int and buff pots for everyone so the spec af cleric can still heal, but it feels a bit unfair to alb.

I do not think a buff pot should be a viable alternative to yellow buffs, especially when those buffs are spread out on high utility classes for two realms (spec af bard healer) but only on clerics in alb

Curious if anyone also sees this issue? I'm thinking a pretty large buff to MOA so that primary buffer classes in all 3 realms can more easily have access to fully capped buffs without sacrificing a shit ton of RAs or spec points would reliably bring back the usefulness of buff classes and help balance the gap between realms.

i can see that happening regarding hibernia, as bards already spec really high in enhancement....but healers? What aughealer will spec to purple specAF? they will also have shitheals then....

Can you give me one reason a serious group would prefer a high enh cleric to a high Aug healer? Doesn't really matter anyway, you sort of ignored 90% of my post. I don't think any healer would go for spec af or MOA, but that was my point, they don't have to.
Wed 8 May 2019 9:20 AM by tweedledumb99
This is even better.

And to anyone saying this will make solo fights (melee or whatever) harder - thats BS cause were all on a level playing field, way more than before.

Relative defense, defense penetration, hp, all of that stays equal relative to any other solo player.

And it also makes any class that can other-buff or even self buff (e.g. ranger) more desirable for duo/small.

Now that I think about it, I kind of want to roll a solo melee ranger lol.
Wed 8 May 2019 9:25 AM by tweedledumb99
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 11:11 AM
This proposal is much better than the first, thank you for taking the massive feedback against the charges seriously

The reduced stats make sense, otherwise the mainbuffers shaman/druid/cleric wouldn't have any reason anymore to spec their enhancement lines. It might be a small cut for us soloers/smallmen, but we will have to wait and see how it plays out. The new convenience and no-charge-juggling anymore is a huge benefit.

Decreasing the gap between the casuals and the hardcore is probably also a good thing for the overall serverpopulation, that the harcores have individuals that are heavily against the casuals having ebtter fighting chances is to be expected.


I am ofocurse crying on one eye about the sunk cost of all my charge-items, but i'll get over it, and the current solution is better than the first proposal. I just wonder what will happen to inflation, but i am sure you have that in the back of your head and will find ways to give us other holes we can throw our plats into

QFT
Wed 8 May 2019 9:33 AM by BorealManager5
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 8:11 AM
i can see that happening regarding hibernia, as bards already spec really high in enhancement....but healers? What aughealer will spec to purple specAF? they will also have shitheals then....

I was asking the same question in the original thread.
If spec af is introduced to healer and bard in the same levels as cleric has it now.
Hib: red, 83af (+8), viable for red AE mezz or yellow inst AE Metz spec
Alb: yellow, 68 (-7), same spec as currently
Mid: blue, 53 (-22), just no way the one Main healer can afford to loose his most used heal spell for more aug spec.

This is from a 8man perspective. In solo zerg vs solo zerg, af matters very little and even less coming from a buffer as opposed to coming from combined forces.


Lastly: what happens to spec af PROCs?? I think they should retain the original value. While they certainly are not meta right now, their existence does not compromise the obejectives of the overall changes.
Wed 8 May 2019 9:40 AM by Sepplord
Kaseylol wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 9:10 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 8:11 AM
Kaseylol wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 5:52 PM
This is also my only problem with this patch. You either run one full enh cleric (or maybe two depending on conc changes) to buff everyone but then you have a stunbot with shit heals and no shears.

Meanwhile hib and mid can run no shaman or druid and just use buff pots, roll dual healer or bard, or add a mana ment, and have insane utility classes while still getting spec af.

I do feel this nerfs alb a lot considering the primary buffer also has spec af, where a high utility class on other realms gets it. Putting skill gap aside, how can an alb group running an enh cleric compete with dual bard or dual healer groups? Even a bonedancer or mana ment add way more utility than an enh cleric and the stat difference from buffpot vs high enh or high MOA cleric is not worth the sacrifice.

Guessing the meta will turn to 42 enh clerics for red int and buff pots for everyone so the spec af cleric can still heal, but it feels a bit unfair to alb.

I do not think a buff pot should be a viable alternative to yellow buffs, especially when those buffs are spread out on high utility classes for two realms (spec af bard healer) but only on clerics in alb

Curious if anyone also sees this issue? I'm thinking a pretty large buff to MOA so that primary buffer classes in all 3 realms can more easily have access to fully capped buffs without sacrificing a shit ton of RAs or spec points would reliably bring back the usefulness of buff classes and help balance the gap between realms.

i can see that happening regarding hibernia, as bards already spec really high in enhancement....but healers? What aughealer will spec to purple specAF? they will also have shitheals then....

Can you give me one reason a serious group would prefer a high enh cleric to a high Aug healer?

As i am no 8man-player i can't answer your question without (probably) giving you attack material. Why do you not simply answer the question i made instead of getting defensiv and inquring me to give specifics now?

I'll try anyways:

Realms are different, the decision to pick an augh instead of enhclerc isn't there. The choice is only between the whole albsetup and the whole midsetup as this isn't a PvP server. Comparing individual classes 1vs1 only makes sense when one is taking all the groupslots because it is much better and the other class doesn't get heals. I know many PAC-healers that have respecced to aug, because it's much less stressful gameplay. They would probably prefer if they could ONLY focus on heals infight, and didn't have a second mainjob tacked on.

What reason is there to take a skald if you could take a minstrel?
What serious group would take skald+healer when they can take bard+druid instead?
What serious group would take a high-Aughealer when they could take a Mend/Aug like before for the sacrifice of only a few AF? (Which brings us back to my initial question, getting an answer would be nice . It's just a question from a noob, i am not even sure HOW high healer would need to spec for 75AF-Buff?)

Is there any set-grp from Mid that is planning to ditch their Shaman after this goes live? Will that really happen? Don't Midgrps still need shamans for desease/roots/ichor and resistbuffs? To me your complaints seems to be based on the wrong predicament that Mids will ditch their shamans while Albion can't do that. My assessment might be wrong though, i am in no way an expert (or even very versed) for 8vs8meta.
Wed 8 May 2019 9:53 AM by Bicstor
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 11:01 PM
Bicstor wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 10:43 PM
I dont relish having to monitor the timers on charge items, but I am ok doing it if that is the price I have to pay(along with the charge cost) for having those buffs. I accept it as part of the game, just another challenge.

So you think because you take on the challenge of tedious unneeded tasks that could be made easier you should profit?? What kind of joke is that?? Like your character should be better not by skill but because you've invested more time than others on stat boosts??

Sounds like participation trophy winner of the month 🏆

Wow, going down the insult path. Perhaps I have made a spelling mistake you could correct while you are at it. Pretty sure I have used a to instead of a too somewhere as well, maybe you could highlight that.

If having to check if 2 minutes has passed since you last used a charge, which is made so much easier now, with the the time remaining showing on the buff icon, then having to press a key or click an icon on your quickbar is too much for you then simply dont do it.

If i spend 10% of my in game time ensuring I have the ability to use alll the resources available to me, that i choose to use, that makes me an inferior player to someone who wont do the same?

The real issue I have is that the s/c and d/q charges(which are available to all) are being nerfed for no solid in game reason other than people find them a pain to use. If they left them stat wise as is and removed the the timers on non offensive charges then that would be fine by me.
Wed 8 May 2019 10:01 AM by Fugitive
Remove self buffs from Beast Craft and PF and put them into archery for all archer classes. This is a pretty big nerf to scouts as they already a fairly terrible class.
Wed 8 May 2019 10:29 AM by Bradekes
Bicstor wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 9:53 AM
Wow, going down the insult path. Perhaps I have made a spelling mistake you could correct while you are at it. Pretty sure I have used a to instead of a too somewhere as well, maybe you could highlight that.

If having to check if 2 minutes has passed since you last used a charge, which is made so much easier now, with the the time remaining showing on the buff icon, then having to press a key or click an icon on your quickbar is too much for you then simply dont do it.

If i spend 10% of my in game time ensuring I have the ability to use alll the resources available to me, that i choose to use, that makes me an inferior player to someone who wont do the same?

The real issue I have is that the s/c and d/q charges(which are available to all) are being nerfed for no solid in game reason other than people find them a pain to use. If they left them stat wise as is and removed the the timers on non offensive charges then that would be fine by me.

Yeah well I'm glad you're not the one in charge here.. Sorry it's not insults it's just not enjoyable gameplay... There shouldn't be a 2minute minigame on every toon I play, especially one that costs me time and money to maintain AND then I also have to micro manage.. Why play then, it keeps away from the real enjoyment..

Also keeping the buff values the same is a poor option as well.. The charge spec buffs were higher than half the self buffer values even with the 1.25x bonus of self buffing... They had to make the decision to make a distinction between the two options..

All the scouts whining that it makes your class weaker is BS now your enemy is going to use their spec points for higher PF/BC meaning less in their melee or bow spec.. It equals out to pretty much the same... Shield spec on a class with the highest dex in game is not a bad gig..
Wed 8 May 2019 11:21 AM by tweedledumb99
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:10 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 6:42 PM
Why not just change the buff pots to values that equals the ones we have now with forces + charges.
If your only reason is to get rid of the juggling for convenience , why nerf everyone that does it?

I just don't get what the reason behind it all is

Because that screws over buffing classes.

QFT.

My only played char is a hero so my only stake with in supporting this change (other than leveling the playing field with low-hours-played players) is making buff classes more needed so the server has a better population of satisfied players playing those classes.

The number of posts that say that this nerfs soloers in any way shows how many people cant or wont read the OP.
Wed 8 May 2019 11:24 AM by tweedledumb99
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:32 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:25 PM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:56 PM
Solo mostly . Still doesn't answer my confusion about why these are coming into effect ?

From my point of view (others and devs might digress), these changes are needed as a QoL and to level the playing field (the latter is what I care about).

For example, I don’t have the time to farm just so I can enjoy RvR, and if I go to the FZ without all the charges up, I get annihilated by other players that do (even lower RR than me). This frustrates me and I end up logging-in less and less until I quit. Every time I quit DAoC I because of that (buffbots in live and in this case it may be, charges).

It all comes down to who have the most charges up. IMO players that RvR with full charges don’t want this change to go live because they don’t want to lose their advantage against casuals that only run one or no charges at all.

This is socialism. Make the rich poorer instead of making the poor richer.

No, wrong.
Wed 8 May 2019 12:04 PM by Tyrlaan
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 10:29 AM
Yeah well I'm glad you're not the one in charge here.. Sorry it's not insults it's just not enjoyable gameplay... There shouldn't be a 2minute minigame on every toon I play, especially one that costs me time and money to maintain AND then I also have to micro manage.. Why play then, it keeps away from the real enjoyment..

I wonder how you enjoy this game if you still "have to micro manage" CF pots, casted buffs, RAs and instants on cooldowns, styles and stuff, always having to pay attention to icons, effects and stuff. You might be playing the wrong game.
Wed 8 May 2019 12:15 PM by Bradekes
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 12:04 PM
I wonder how you enjoy this game if you still "have to micro manage" CF pots, casted buffs, RAs and instants on cooldowns, styles and stuff, always having to pay attention to icons, effects and stuff. You might be playing the wrong game.

Wow what an argument... 10 and 23minutes vs 2minutes... You sure are grasping at straws
Wed 8 May 2019 12:26 PM by Teehehe
Here is the fix we need.
All classes with self buffs/spec buffs are granted force skill/ra respec
1. Remove combat timer on using the combined forces potion.
2. Make combined forces equal to combined forces + spec charges (d/q, str/con, acuity, haste)
3. Increase the conc to enable more buffing
(optional) 4. Add spec af to bard/healers
5. All spec charges have been changed to an omni charge(15%?)
(optional) 6. increase combined forces timer to 20 minutes to put it on par with the resists/self buffs

PICK ONE
1. Slighty increase spec buffs(this would include all classes capable of buffing). This would still allow for MOA
or
2. Every X levels trained into buff line gain a level of MOA (remove MOA from RA's this would also carry into the sub categories like enchantment line, valor, pathfinding, beastcraft, etc...)
Wed 8 May 2019 12:29 PM by t4coops
yeah for sure the combined forces in combat, sometimes have long fights, its very lame when im doing well in a fight im out numbered in and its taking awile and my buffs start to drop and I cant use them and its GG

specialy since there are no shears here ? so I don't get what it would hurt to use in combat anyway ?



please let me lose a fight because I played poorly, not because I was doing so well it went on awile and my buffs dropped and I could no longer even try to compete
Wed 8 May 2019 12:30 PM by Yokahu
Food for thought:

There were 288 posts in the first 24 hours under the thread titled “Buff System / Buff Charges Changes”. Those posts consisted of people mostly complaining about the changes (more specifically about the 20% resists).

This new thread only got 119 posts (less than half the posts of the previous thread) in the first 24 hours; and most of the posts were people supporting the changes, and the same handful of people complaining about them on and on.

Overall, I believe these new changes are widely welcome by the majority of the players.

*edit: typo
Wed 8 May 2019 12:37 PM by Tyrlaan
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 12:15 PM
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 12:04 PM
I wonder how you enjoy this game if you still "have to micro manage" CF pots, casted buffs, RAs and instants on cooldowns, styles and stuff, always having to pay attention to icons, effects and stuff. You might be playing the wrong game.

Wow what an argument... 10 and 23minutes vs 2minutes... You sure are grasping at straws

It was a longer argument than yours for sure.

The whole game has timers, and most are for a reason. Long timers, short timers, everywhere. Immunity timers are 1min or less for melee stuns. That's a whole game of micro management right there. Poisons to reapply. Plenty of short time buffs or instants (speed classes, Paladin, Reaver, Savage, VW etc) to twist or cycle through. Styles to cycle (they call them chains). Timered buffs to stop in between and recast. The list is endless.

And you're telling me you feel overwhelmed with clicking a /use every 2min...
Wed 8 May 2019 12:43 PM by Bradekes
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 12:37 PM
And you're telling me you feel overwhelmed with clicking a /use every 2min...

No I'm not overwhelmed and you're obviously delusional if you don't see the problem.. DAoC is great but I've never played it with 2minute demand buttons that weren't part of my classes kit
Wed 8 May 2019 1:10 PM by Inkwell84
Hib Celerity ??????
Wed 8 May 2019 1:33 PM by Mauriac
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:30 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:22 PM
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:20 PM
What 80 stats? We're going from 101 to 83. You're losing 18. You're also gaining spec AF and 17% haste off Combined forces. No more haste pots required.

Additionally, its not just you losing stats -- Everyone is losing stats. We're all going to be in the same place we're in now, just with ever so slight min/max adjustments.

18 str
18 con
18 dex
25 qui

That's fair. But again, we're all dealing with it so remember if you feel gimped your enemies are too.

I ran with all charges and haste/shield too. I dunno what initiated this change, but whatever.... It is what it is.

Not true. Infs and shades will still be able to hit their evade cap off dex and quickness with this change along with max haste from quickness off this change.

SB will need to spec augqui 8 for max evade whereas before we only needes 3 or 4 and haste and Aug dex 3 for evade where before we didn't need any. This is a massive nerf for SBs because we just lost defense, swing speed and damage. Infs and shades lost a small amount of damage but no swing speed or evade loss because their dex and quick stats will still break the 250 barrier no problem.

Shitty change but on the bright side I just gained about 20 hours of free time per week.
Wed 8 May 2019 1:52 PM by Mauriac
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
After the friendly feedback in the last thread we're going to do some changes to the announced changes.

Please keep in mind that this change effectively removes all long lasting stat buffs from charges and in order to do this while not taking a buff away entirely, spec AF has to be made available to the other realms. Before this everyone already has access to the 75 delve charge, therefore this is not suddenly giving another realm access to an albion only buff.

Anyways, the two major changes to the last post are:
1) we abandon the 3rd goal, not devaluing existing sc/dq charge items, and make them have the buff potion value thereby effectively removing them
2) all self buffs that aren't already at normal buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example

The two main goals were and still are:
1) If you are grouped with a buffer you are buffed by the buffer and don't need to use any charges / potions except for maybe useless things like str on caster
2) If you are solo / small man without a buffer, you use the combined buff potion and are done

The entire change list:

To achieve the first goal:
1) Increase the available conc by 25%
2) Remove 20 buff cap
3) Small delve increase to the acuity buff
4) Add spec AF to bards and healer

To achieve the second goal:
1) 30% buff of buff potion delve. This means from 65 (base + spec from current buff potion) or 101 (buff potion base + spec charge) to 83 (33 base, 50 spec)
2) haste potion and combo potion use the same haste
3) add appropriate spec AF to combo buff potion

All self buffs that aren't already at buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example, some already are at that level some are not.

Spec AF charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.
Acuity charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.
Dex/Quick charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.
Strength/Con charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.

The existing potions / charges will be automatically changed.


And to address some alternative suggestions:
1) Just increase the charge timer
This would alleviate the juggling problem but you still have the 2 - 3x charge timer preparation time until you are ready

2) Remove the charge timer
Would remove juggling, make everyone always have all charges up and be rather expensive

3) Reduce charge cost
Alone it doesn't address much, combined with 2 makes that more bearable but also makes it even more likely everyone uses those 2 to 3 items when starting a run.

2 and 3 together is effectively what this change does except in a nerfed variant (stat wise) and without having to use multiple items while keeping the charge cost for in combat use charges like mana or heal things.

Awesome news, with our new master plan of lowering the population below live, these changes will set us on that path almost as fast as the last bullshit.

I said it on the last thread. Be careful with balance changes like this because you're NOT going to get people to come back over this but you will get people to leave. Clearly, population isn't a big concern for you then or perhaps you just take it for granted. Thanks for the fun the last 4 months with the server. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I don't like these changes though so I'm done. For those of you who do like them congrats and enjoy. Enjoy it while it lasts. I have no doubt the dev team will find an opportunity to take a shit on your class and / or play style at some point in the future as well. Except 8v8, since we all know that's really what daoc is all about.

Cheers,
Mortarion
Wed 8 May 2019 1:55 PM by cere2
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 1:33 PM
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:30 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:22 PM
18 str
18 con
18 dex
25 qui

That's fair. But again, we're all dealing with it so remember if you feel gimped your enemies are too.

I ran with all charges and haste/shield too. I dunno what initiated this change, but whatever.... It is what it is.

Not true. Infs and shades will still be able to hit their evade cap off dex and quickness with this change along with max haste from quickness off this change.

SB will need to spec augqui 8 for max evade whereas before we only needes 3 or 4 and haste and Aug dex 3 for evade where before we didn't need any. This is a massive nerf for SBs because we just lost defense, swing speed and damage. Infs and shades lost a small amount of damage but no swing speed or evade loss because their dex and quick stats will still break the 250 barrier no problem.

Shitty change but on the bright side I just gained about 20 hours of free time per week.

Please explain how?
So no racial stats difference for kob/norse/dwarf/valk etc?
No racial stats difference for saracen/briton/iconnu?
No racial stats difference for Luri/Elf?

Or, it is because perhaps you chose Norse, you want to say its a nerf to a class that has much more strength and therefore less quick/dex than others?
How much Aug Str do they need if they were trying to get 330 str?
Wed 8 May 2019 1:59 PM by Mauriac
cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 1:55 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 1:33 PM
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:30 PM
That's fair. But again, we're all dealing with it so remember if you feel gimped your enemies are too.

I ran with all charges and haste/shield too. I dunno what initiated this change, but whatever.... It is what it is.

Not true. Infs and shades will still be able to hit their evade cap off dex and quickness with this change along with max haste from quickness off this change.

SB will need to spec augqui 8 for max evade whereas before we only needes 3 or 4 and haste and Aug dex 3 for evade where before we didn't need any. This is a massive nerf for SBs because we just lost defense, swing speed and damage. Infs and shades lost a small amount of damage but no swing speed or evade loss because their dex and quick stats will still break the 250 barrier no problem.

Shitty change but on the bright side I just gained about 20 hours of free time per week.

Please explain how?
So no racial stats difference for kob/norse/dwarf/valk etc?
No racial stats difference for saracen/briton/iconnu?
No racial stats difference for Luri/Elf?

Or, it is because perhaps you chose Norse, you want to say its a nerf to a class that has much more strength and therefore less quick/dex than others?
How much Aug Str do they need if they were trying to get 330 str?

330 str lol lol lol. Not attainable even with Aug str 9. Gtfo and try again

You're right though. I did choose Norse. I could go kobold and not suffer from the stat problem but could just lose a ton of damage and continue to get fucked by being limited to one damage type, no one part off evade stun, and horrible resist tables something neither infs nor NS have to deal with. Next time think it through before you type. This shit isn't in a vacuum. Class and race performance has to be looked at in totality, not one piece at a time
Wed 8 May 2019 2:00 PM by cere2
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 1:59 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 1:55 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 1:33 PM
Not true. Infs and shades will still be able to hit their evade cap off dex and quickness with this change along with max haste from quickness off this change.

SB will need to spec augqui 8 for max evade whereas before we only needes 3 or 4 and haste and Aug dex 3 for evade where before we didn't need any. This is a massive nerf for SBs because we just lost defense, swing speed and damage. Infs and shades lost a small amount of damage but no swing speed or evade loss because their dex and quick stats will still break the 250 barrier no problem.

Shitty change but on the bright side I just gained about 20 hours of free time per week.

Please explain how?
So no racial stats difference for kob/norse/dwarf/valk etc?
No racial stats difference for saracen/briton/iconnu?
No racial stats difference for Luri/Elf?

Or, it is because perhaps you chose Norse, you want to say its a nerf to a class that has much more strength and therefore less quick/dex than others?
How much Aug Str do they need if they were trying to get 330 str?

330 str lol lol lol. Not attainable even with Aug str 9. Gtfo and try again

That was your response? Well done. Glad you could represent your claims so well.
Wed 8 May 2019 2:04 PM by Gotmagi
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 1:33 PM
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:30 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:22 PM
18 str
18 con
18 dex
25 qui

That's fair. But again, we're all dealing with it so remember if you feel gimped your enemies are too.

I ran with all charges and haste/shield too. I dunno what initiated this change, but whatever.... It is what it is.

Not true. Infs and shades will still be able to hit their evade cap off dex and quickness with this change along with max haste from quickness off this change.

SB will need to spec augqui 8 for max evade whereas before we only needes 3 or 4 and haste and Aug dex 3 for evade where before we didn't need any. This is a massive nerf for SBs because we just lost defense, swing speed and damage. Infs and shades lost a small amount of damage but no swing speed or evade loss because their dex and quick stats will still break the 250 barrier no problem.

Shitty change but on the bright side I just gained about 20 hours of free time per week.

What an utterly useless argument.
Wed 8 May 2019 2:06 PM by Mauriac
Gotmagi wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:04 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 1:33 PM
noobino wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:30 PM
That's fair. But again, we're all dealing with it so remember if you feel gimped your enemies are too.

I ran with all charges and haste/shield too. I dunno what initiated this change, but whatever.... It is what it is.

Not true. Infs and shades will still be able to hit their evade cap off dex and quickness with this change along with max haste from quickness off this change.

SB will need to spec augqui 8 for max evade whereas before we only needes 3 or 4 and haste and Aug dex 3 for evade where before we didn't need any. This is a massive nerf for SBs because we just lost defense, swing speed and damage. Infs and shades lost a small amount of damage but no swing speed or evade loss because their dex and quick stats will still break the 250 barrier no problem.

Shitty change but on the bright side I just gained about 20 hours of free time per week.

What an utterly useless argument.

Your contribution to this was amazing. I already explained why this is a big nerf to SBs and not our counterparts. Read and comprehend or get back on the short bus and have your handler help you out
Wed 8 May 2019 2:11 PM by Eldoktor
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 12:30 PM
Food for thought:

There were 288 posts in the first 24 hours under the thread titled “Buff System / Buff Charges Changes”. Those posts consisted of people mostly complaining about the changes (more specifically about the 20% resists).

This new thread only got 119 posts (less than half the posts of the previous thread) in the first 24 hours; and most of the posts were people supporting the changes, and the same handful of people complaining about them on and on.

Overall, I believe these new changes are widely welcome by the majority of the players.

*edit: typo
supported by the majority of unskilled zergers you mean

nothing else
Wed 8 May 2019 2:17 PM by Yokahu
Eldoktor wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:11 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 12:30 PM
Food for thought:

There were 288 posts in the first 24 hours under the thread titled “Buff System / Buff Charges Changes”. Those posts consisted of people mostly complaining about the changes (more specifically about the 20% resists).

This new thread only got 119 posts (less than half the posts of the previous thread) in the first 24 hours; and most of the posts were people supporting the changes, and the same handful of people complaining about them on and on.

Overall, I believe these new changes are widely welcome by the majority of the players.

*edit: typo
supported by the majority of unskilled zergers you mean

nothing else

Such a great argument! You must be part of your school’s debate team.
Wed 8 May 2019 2:20 PM by Tillbeast
Long thread again but here is my opinion.

From first post developers state....

The two main goals were and still are:
1) If you are grouped with a buffer you are buffed by the buffer and don't need to use any charges / potions except for maybe useless things like str on caster
2) If you are solo / small man without a buffer, you use the combined buff potion and are done

Point 1.

Is as it should be. You invite a class into your group to assist in the role that class is suppose to do which is to buff the other members with buffs only castable by invited class.

Point 2.

Never should a solo player be given access buffs that they themselves cannot cast themselves. If they want a strength buff on midgard for example they either group with a healer or shaman or roll a healer or shaman to solo with. Spec buffs like dex/quick you can spend feathers on to get the items with charges. The combined forces potions and any other potion that puts stat bonus on a player that is castable by another class should be removed from the game. Self buffing classes should not lose their advantage over a non self buffing class when they are solo. Some classes will have complete lines made extremely inneficient or outright pointless, taking for example rangers speccing high in path finding get basically just the dam add and speed burst whilst the hunter has a completely redundant line in beastcraft . You are forcing characters who don't need to level a lgm alchemist or pay 500-1p depending on realm for potions to be able to compensate for losing a spec line that is nowhere as good as getting fully buffed with every buff available.

Maybe make the combined forces potion work in pve only zones but I highly disagree with potion increases a characters attributes unless they can do it themselves or in a group with someone who an do it for them.
Wed 8 May 2019 2:27 PM by Peppar
Dont remove buff charges
increase timers is all we need, (15-20 min)
and make them shorter reuse
Wed 8 May 2019 2:54 PM by Svekt
RIP Phoenix
Wed 8 May 2019 3:24 PM by Colediddy2K
It's a good change, don't be swayed - I'm sure the vast majority of players prefer this idea. Kudos.
Wed 8 May 2019 3:24 PM by Meandow
Peppar wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:27 PM
Dont remove buff charges
increase timers is all we need, (15-20 min)
and make them shorter reuse

Word (or no changes at all)
Wed 8 May 2019 3:49 PM by Norad
Good change. make sure no OP magic/melee resist charge
Wed 8 May 2019 3:56 PM by Numatic
Welcome to Dark Age of GroupAlot!

Where grouping is all it's about and soloers dont matter!

Lol. Sorry that just popped into my head and I had to.

The fact that -anyone- in groups can gripe about a soloer being "just as buffed" reeks of irony to me.

You want my God honest opinion? Grouping is severely OP in this game when comparing to even 1 or 2 less in numbers. Even more so if those numbers are soloers. I have yet to witness 8 soloers defeat an 8man group.

If anything, DAoc should have had a 4 player group limit in RvR. You want variety, choose the type of group you want to run.

As an 8man group, a soloer should be able to buff even MORE than someone in a group. For christ sake the guy is solo. You have 8 people. Why should HE have a handicap? It boggles my mind where this logic from 8 mans came from. I have always had this nagging feeling in the back of my head that all these elite 8mans spent years fighting for their cause to remain on top over smaller numbers so they can feel powerful.

If you ask an 8man group, what do they fear? If one of them ever says "a solo <class>" I will admit I'm wrong.

I guess I'm just kinda ranting at the irony. I know there are balance issues etc.. but it just irks me somewhere in my soul when I see people complain that a soloer shouldn't be as "buff" as an 8man. 8mans are for utility, survivability, and damage using numbers and tactics synergistically. Saying a soloer should be handicapped against them feels like some sort of accepted travesty.
Wed 8 May 2019 4:00 PM by Tarticus74
Maybe the 8 man's will feel some pity for the solos and not decide to jump on them and gank them for there 70rps each lol

But I doubt it. Changes look ok I don't know how else they could solve the issue really.

But loosing my charge items causes issues and my ALC has just made about 50 haste pots better reduce the cost on my merchant
Wed 8 May 2019 4:03 PM by Norad
Numatic wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 3:56 PM
Welcome to Dark Age of GroupAlot!

Where grouping is all it's about and soloers dont matter!

Lol. Sorry that just popped into my head and I had to.

The fact that -anyone- in groups can gripe about a soloer being "just as buffed" reeks of irony to me.

You want my God honest opinion? Grouping is severely OP in this game when comparing to even 1 or 2 less in numbers. Even more so if those numbers are soloers. I have yet to witness 8 soloers defeat an 8man group.

If anything, DAoc should have had a 4 player group limit in RvR. You want variety, choose the type of group you want to run.

As an 8man group, a soloer should be able to buff even MORE than someone in a group. For christ sake the guy is solo. You have 8 people. Why should HE have a handicap? It boggles my mind where this logic from 8 mans came from. I have always had this nagging feeling in the back of my head that all these elite 8mans spent years fighting for their cause to remain on top over smaller numbers so they can feel powerful.

If you ask an 8man group, what do they fear? If one of them ever says "a solo <class>" I will admit I'm wrong.

I guess I'm just kinda ranting at the irony. I know there are balance issues etc.. but it just irks me somewhere in my soul when I see people complain that a soloer shouldn't be as "buff" as an 8man. 8mans are for utility, survivability, and damage using numbers and tactics synergistically. Saying a soloer should be handicapped against them feels like some sort of accepted travesty.


these changes are good for soloers since other soloers will have same buffs as you, you wont have to wait 8mins at a pk to run out with optimal charge buffs up. There should be a benefit to running a buffing class in solo, small man or group. You're projecting a lot because you dont see to care about the solo aspect of a buffing/self buffing class, you just want your non buff class to be more powerful and have equal buffs to a class that can spec into buffs ^-^
Wed 8 May 2019 4:04 PM by Svekt
Do you think the stealther population is: a) more likely to solo now or b) more likely to group with other stealthers now?
Given that most stealthers try to build to maximum swing speed through a combination of RAs, tweaked template, and CHARGE items given the very nature of their fights. A stealther relies on their ability to drop a target as quickly as possible so that it can re stealth freely or via vanish before he/she is discovered.

We can assume that statistically there are more players that carry a combo forces buff than players that carry a combo buffs potion + spec AF charge in their bag. You have now basically guaranteed that more players will be actively running a spec AF charge, even if it is lower value than the charge one. You can thereby deduce that players will take longer to drop due to the extra absorption of damage from their easily accessed spec AF buff in a 1v1. Also, we can assume that immediately stealthers swing speed will be affected and this will also contribute to a longer 1v1 fight. You have just extended the length of a great percentage of 1v1 fights just in the assassin and stealther category.

You have to think about the repercussions of these changes. Solo play continually seems to be dying for numerous reasons, not just patches and changes. This can be attributed also in part to what certain groups of players chose to do with their time making it harder for the solos to enjoy their play style. But on the developer end, this play style seems to be largely put to the side and forgotten about.
Charges were available at 1.65. Have you made some items easier to get via feather farming etc. …? Yes. So why now remove them on a server that’s based ,now loosely, around said patch?

Bottom line, people still have to go complete their epic for that free AF charge. Frankly a lot of them were not smart enough to use it and simply salvaged it for bars to tinker. Other players farmed for charges and coin to purchase charges.

Leaving the solo play style out of this, you’re messing with people’s time. Something they value and cannot get back. You are also removing a form of income. How many people here have leveled a character that they park at a spot just to farm when it’s open? They turn around and support their play style from farming these drops and selling them.

The trickle effect goes further but I’m sure most people are tired of reading at this point. Groups still need buffs when the buffer drops, and charges for your primary stats are often deployed after a rez or upon the buffer dropping via the use of charges.

I don’t even play a stealther on this patch. I honestly despise being perfed or plucked with arrows but they have their purpose in this game and here I am defending them and other players that are negatively affected by even the slight idea of this patch.
Wed 8 May 2019 4:10 PM by Norad
Svekt wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:04 PM
Do you think the stealther population is: a) more likely to solo now or b) more likely to group with other stealthers now?
Given that most stealthers try to build to maximum swing speed through a combination of RAs, tweaked template, and CHARGE items given the very nature of their fights. A stealther relies on their ability to drop a target as quickly as possible so that it can re stealth freely or via vanish before he/she is discovered.

We can assume that statistically there are more players that carry a combo forces buff than players that carry a combo buffs potion + spec AF charge in their bag. You have now basically guaranteed that more players will be actively running a spec AF charge, even if it is lower value than the charge one. You can thereby deduce that players will take longer to drop due to the extra absorption of damage from their easily accessed spec AF buff in a 1v1. Also, we can assume that immediately stealthers swing speed will be affected and this will also contribute to a longer 1v1 fight. You have just extended the length of a great percentage of 1v1 fights just in the assassin and stealther category.

You have to think about the repercussions of these changes. Solo play continually seems to be dying for numerous reasons, not just patches and changes. This can be attributed also in part to what certain groups of players chose to do with their time making it harder for the solos to enjoy their play style. But on the developer end, this play style seems to be largely put to the side and forgotten about.
Charges were available at 1.65. Have you made some items easier to get via feather farming etc. …? Yes. So why now remove them on a server that’s based ,now loosely, around said patch?

Bottom line, people still have to go complete their epic for that free AF charge. Frankly a lot of them were not smart enough to use it and simply salvaged it for bars to tinker. Other players farmed for charges and coin to purchase charges.

Leaving the solo play style out of this, you’re messing with people’s time. Something they value and cannot get back. You are also removing a form of income. How many people here have leveled a character that they park at a spot just to farm when it’s open? They turn around and support their play style from farming these drops and selling them.

The trickle effect goes further but I’m sure most people are tired of reading at this point. Groups still need buffs when the buffer drops, and charges for your primary stats are often deployed after a rez or upon the buffer dropping via the use of charges.

I don’t even play a stealther on this patch. I honestly despise being perfed or plucked with arrows but they have their purpose in this game and here I am defending them and other players that are negatively affected by even the slight idea of this patch.


You missed an important part of the main post. Spec AF charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.

The new changes will promote 1v1 more than anything since it's simple to just pop your combined forces and start your run. currently you have to wait at the pk for 2-8 minutes depending on how tryhard you want to be and how many charges you want. then when you go out you get a nice fight or you get zerged down by greater numbers and have to repeat the process. With new changes the wait time after dying will be way less so it will promote more people being out actually fighting instead of sitting at the Pk waiting for charge timers. If you factor in that people wont need to pve farm to rvr since potions are a lot cheaper than charges there will be even more active people.
Wed 8 May 2019 4:13 PM by noobino
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:10 PM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:04 PM
Do you think the stealther population is: a) more likely to solo now or b) more likely to group with other stealthers now?
Given that most stealthers try to build to maximum swing speed through a combination of RAs, tweaked template, and CHARGE items given the very nature of their fights. A stealther relies on their ability to drop a target as quickly as possible so that it can re stealth freely or via vanish before he/she is discovered.

We can assume that statistically there are more players that carry a combo forces buff than players that carry a combo buffs potion + spec AF charge in their bag. You have now basically guaranteed that more players will be actively running a spec AF charge, even if it is lower value than the charge one. You can thereby deduce that players will take longer to drop due to the extra absorption of damage from their easily accessed spec AF buff in a 1v1. Also, we can assume that immediately stealthers swing speed will be affected and this will also contribute to a longer 1v1 fight. You have just extended the length of a great percentage of 1v1 fights just in the assassin and stealther category.

You have to think about the repercussions of these changes. Solo play continually seems to be dying for numerous reasons, not just patches and changes. This can be attributed also in part to what certain groups of players chose to do with their time making it harder for the solos to enjoy their play style. But on the developer end, this play style seems to be largely put to the side and forgotten about.
Charges were available at 1.65. Have you made some items easier to get via feather farming etc. …? Yes. So why now remove them on a server that’s based ,now loosely, around said patch?

Bottom line, people still have to go complete their epic for that free AF charge. Frankly a lot of them were not smart enough to use it and simply salvaged it for bars to tinker. Other players farmed for charges and coin to purchase charges.

Leaving the solo play style out of this, you’re messing with people’s time. Something they value and cannot get back. You are also removing a form of income. How many people here have leveled a character that they park at a spot just to farm when it’s open? They turn around and support their play style from farming these drops and selling them.

The trickle effect goes further but I’m sure most people are tired of reading at this point. Groups still need buffs when the buffer drops, and charges for your primary stats are often deployed after a rez or upon the buffer dropping via the use of charges.

I don’t even play a stealther on this patch. I honestly despise being perfed or plucked with arrows but they have their purpose in this game and here I am defending them and other players that are negatively affected by even the slight idea of this patch.


You missed an important part of the main post. Spec AF charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.

The new changes will promote 1v1 more than anything since it's simple to just pop your combined forces and start your run. currently you have to wait at the pk for 2-8 minutes depending on how tryhard you want to be and how many charges you want. then when you go out you get a nice fight or you get zerged down by greater numbers and have to repeat the process. With new changes the wait time after dying will be way less so it will promote more people being out actually fighting instead of sitting at the Pk waiting for charge timers. If you factor in that people wont need to pve farm to rvr since potions are a lot cheaper than charges there will be even more active people.

I for one wait 6 minutes at a PK each time for D/Q, S/C and AF. This change will be good overall. It will be interesting to see what it does to the Combined Forces market. I have a feeling prices will steadily drop, which is good. It will be nice to just pop a pot and run out, then decided mid-fight what charge I want to use instead of juggling them and hoping I get into a fight within my window to use Legion/DA, etc.

~ Solo NS.
Wed 8 May 2019 4:16 PM by Norad
noobino wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:13 PM
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:10 PM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:04 PM
Do you think the stealther population is: a) more likely to solo now or b) more likely to group with other stealthers now?
Given that most stealthers try to build to maximum swing speed through a combination of RAs, tweaked template, and CHARGE items given the very nature of their fights. A stealther relies on their ability to drop a target as quickly as possible so that it can re stealth freely or via vanish before he/she is discovered.

We can assume that statistically there are more players that carry a combo forces buff than players that carry a combo buffs potion + spec AF charge in their bag. You have now basically guaranteed that more players will be actively running a spec AF charge, even if it is lower value than the charge one. You can thereby deduce that players will take longer to drop due to the extra absorption of damage from their easily accessed spec AF buff in a 1v1. Also, we can assume that immediately stealthers swing speed will be affected and this will also contribute to a longer 1v1 fight. You have just extended the length of a great percentage of 1v1 fights just in the assassin and stealther category.

You have to think about the repercussions of these changes. Solo play continually seems to be dying for numerous reasons, not just patches and changes. This can be attributed also in part to what certain groups of players chose to do with their time making it harder for the solos to enjoy their play style. But on the developer end, this play style seems to be largely put to the side and forgotten about.
Charges were available at 1.65. Have you made some items easier to get via feather farming etc. …? Yes. So why now remove them on a server that’s based ,now loosely, around said patch?

Bottom line, people still have to go complete their epic for that free AF charge. Frankly a lot of them were not smart enough to use it and simply salvaged it for bars to tinker. Other players farmed for charges and coin to purchase charges.

Leaving the solo play style out of this, you’re messing with people’s time. Something they value and cannot get back. You are also removing a form of income. How many people here have leveled a character that they park at a spot just to farm when it’s open? They turn around and support their play style from farming these drops and selling them.

The trickle effect goes further but I’m sure most people are tired of reading at this point. Groups still need buffs when the buffer drops, and charges for your primary stats are often deployed after a rez or upon the buffer dropping via the use of charges.

I don’t even play a stealther on this patch. I honestly despise being perfed or plucked with arrows but they have their purpose in this game and here I am defending them and other players that are negatively affected by even the slight idea of this patch.


You missed an important part of the main post. Spec AF charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.

The new changes will promote 1v1 more than anything since it's simple to just pop your combined forces and start your run. currently you have to wait at the pk for 2-8 minutes depending on how tryhard you want to be and how many charges you want. then when you go out you get a nice fight or you get zerged down by greater numbers and have to repeat the process. With new changes the wait time after dying will be way less so it will promote more people being out actually fighting instead of sitting at the Pk waiting for charge timers. If you factor in that people wont need to pve farm to rvr since potions are a lot cheaper than charges there will be even more active people.

I for one wait 6 minutes at a PK each time for D/Q, S/C and AF. This change will be good overall. It will be interesting to see what it does to the Combined Forces market. I have a feeling prices will steadily drop, which is good. It will be nice to just pop a pot and run out, then decided mid-fight what charge I want to use instead of juggling them and hoping I get into a fight within my window to use Legion/DA, etc.

~ Solo NS.

What you wrote is exactly the intended change they are looking for. No more juggle charges at the pk, just go out and play instead of wasting time.
Wed 8 May 2019 4:19 PM by florin
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 11:24 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:32 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:25 PM
From my point of view (others and devs might digress), these changes are needed as a QoL and to level the playing field (the latter is what I care about).

For example, I don’t have the time to farm just so I can enjoy RvR, and if I go to the FZ without all the charges up, I get annihilated by other players that do (even lower RR than me). This frustrates me and I end up logging-in less and less until I quit. Every time I quit DAoC I because of that (buffbots in live and in this case it may be, charges).

It all comes down to who have the most charges up. IMO players that RvR with full charges don’t want this change to go live because they don’t want to lose their advantage against casuals that only run one or no charges at all.

This is socialism. Make the rich poorer instead of making the poor richer.

No, wrong.

No.you
Wed 8 May 2019 4:21 PM by Mauriac
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:10 PM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:04 PM
Do you think the stealther population is: a) more likely to solo now or b) more likely to group with other stealthers now?
Given that most stealthers try to build to maximum swing speed through a combination of RAs, tweaked template, and CHARGE items given the very nature of their fights. A stealther relies on their ability to drop a target as quickly as possible so that it can re stealth freely or via vanish before he/she is discovered.

We can assume that statistically there are more players that carry a combo forces buff than players that carry a combo buffs potion + spec AF charge in their bag. You have now basically guaranteed that more players will be actively running a spec AF charge, even if it is lower value than the charge one. You can thereby deduce that players will take longer to drop due to the extra absorption of damage from their easily accessed spec AF buff in a 1v1. Also, we can assume that immediately stealthers swing speed will be affected and this will also contribute to a longer 1v1 fight. You have just extended the length of a great percentage of 1v1 fights just in the assassin and stealther category.

You have to think about the repercussions of these changes. Solo play continually seems to be dying for numerous reasons, not just patches and changes. This can be attributed also in part to what certain groups of players chose to do with their time making it harder for the solos to enjoy their play style. But on the developer end, this play style seems to be largely put to the side and forgotten about.
Charges were available at 1.65. Have you made some items easier to get via feather farming etc. …? Yes. So why now remove them on a server that’s based ,now loosely, around said patch?

Bottom line, people still have to go complete their epic for that free AF charge. Frankly a lot of them were not smart enough to use it and simply salvaged it for bars to tinker. Other players farmed for charges and coin to purchase charges.

Leaving the solo play style out of this, you’re messing with people’s time. Something they value and cannot get back. You are also removing a form of income. How many people here have leveled a character that they park at a spot just to farm when it’s open? They turn around and support their play style from farming these drops and selling them.

The trickle effect goes further but I’m sure most people are tired of reading at this point. Groups still need buffs when the buffer drops, and charges for your primary stats are often deployed after a rez or upon the buffer dropping via the use of charges.

I don’t even play a stealther on this patch. I honestly despise being perfed or plucked with arrows but they have their purpose in this game and here I am defending them and other players that are negatively affected by even the slight idea of this patch.


You missed an important part of the main post. Spec AF charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.

The new changes will promote 1v1 more than anything since it's simple to just pop your combined forces and start your run. currently you have to wait at the pk for 2-8 minutes depending on how tryhard you want to be and how many charges you want. then when you go out you get a nice fight or you get zerged down by greater numbers and have to repeat the process. With new changes the wait time after dying will be way less so it will promote more people being out actually fighting instead of sitting at the Pk waiting for charge timers. If you factor in that people wont need to pve farm to rvr since potions are a lot cheaper than charges there will be even more active people.

This new change does nothing to "promote" 1v1. It actually does the complete opposite.

All this change did was

1) make SBs in particular weaker relative to other sneaks with the loss of stats. If you don't understand why, read my previous post about quickness and dex soft caps and you will understand.
2) make solo and smallman fights last longer which on Phoenix means more time to get added
3) make it harder for a soloers, like an assassin for example to jump into a zerg fight because now we're going to hit softer and slower and the target, who is likely grouped, will be tankier. Translation from the dev team - join a group or get bent

Problem is, some classes aren't wanted in groups so really what the dev team is saying is just, 8man or get bent.

Meanwhile, we're giving spec AF to mid and hib cause it's unfair that only alb has it yet, SBs remain the only sneak without 1 part off evade stun or access to more then one damage type while hib gets to keep instant amnesia because unlike the spec AF issue, that's actually still fair because..... reasons.....

The good news is we have about 4 months max till WoW vanilla releases
Wed 8 May 2019 4:27 PM by Eidorf
Will there be an increase to the duration of combined forces buffs? 10 mins is just too short, needs to be way longer.
Wed 8 May 2019 4:28 PM by noobino
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:21 PM
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:10 PM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:04 PM
Do you think the stealther population is: a) more likely to solo now or b) more likely to group with other stealthers now?
Given that most stealthers try to build to maximum swing speed through a combination of RAs, tweaked template, and CHARGE items given the very nature of their fights. A stealther relies on their ability to drop a target as quickly as possible so that it can re stealth freely or via vanish before he/she is discovered.

We can assume that statistically there are more players that carry a combo forces buff than players that carry a combo buffs potion + spec AF charge in their bag. You have now basically guaranteed that more players will be actively running a spec AF charge, even if it is lower value than the charge one. You can thereby deduce that players will take longer to drop due to the extra absorption of damage from their easily accessed spec AF buff in a 1v1. Also, we can assume that immediately stealthers swing speed will be affected and this will also contribute to a longer 1v1 fight. You have just extended the length of a great percentage of 1v1 fights just in the assassin and stealther category.

You have to think about the repercussions of these changes. Solo play continually seems to be dying for numerous reasons, not just patches and changes. This can be attributed also in part to what certain groups of players chose to do with their time making it harder for the solos to enjoy their play style. But on the developer end, this play style seems to be largely put to the side and forgotten about.
Charges were available at 1.65. Have you made some items easier to get via feather farming etc. …? Yes. So why now remove them on a server that’s based ,now loosely, around said patch?

Bottom line, people still have to go complete their epic for that free AF charge. Frankly a lot of them were not smart enough to use it and simply salvaged it for bars to tinker. Other players farmed for charges and coin to purchase charges.

Leaving the solo play style out of this, you’re messing with people’s time. Something they value and cannot get back. You are also removing a form of income. How many people here have leveled a character that they park at a spot just to farm when it’s open? They turn around and support their play style from farming these drops and selling them.

The trickle effect goes further but I’m sure most people are tired of reading at this point. Groups still need buffs when the buffer drops, and charges for your primary stats are often deployed after a rez or upon the buffer dropping via the use of charges.

I don’t even play a stealther on this patch. I honestly despise being perfed or plucked with arrows but they have their purpose in this game and here I am defending them and other players that are negatively affected by even the slight idea of this patch.


You missed an important part of the main post. Spec AF charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.

The new changes will promote 1v1 more than anything since it's simple to just pop your combined forces and start your run. currently you have to wait at the pk for 2-8 minutes depending on how tryhard you want to be and how many charges you want. then when you go out you get a nice fight or you get zerged down by greater numbers and have to repeat the process. With new changes the wait time after dying will be way less so it will promote more people being out actually fighting instead of sitting at the Pk waiting for charge timers. If you factor in that people wont need to pve farm to rvr since potions are a lot cheaper than charges there will be even more active people.

This new change does nothing to "promote" 1v1. It actually does the complete opposite.

All this change did was

1) make SBs in particular weaker relative to other sneaks with the loss of stats. If you don't understand why, read my previous post about quickness and dex soft caps and you will understand.
2) make solo and smallman fights last longer which on Phoenix means more time to get added
3) make it harder for a soloers, like an assassin for example to jump into a zerg fight because now we're going to hit softer and slower and the target, who is likely grouped, will be tankier. Translation from the dev team - join a group or get bent

Problem is, some classes aren't wanted in groups so really what the dev team is saying is just, 8man or get bent.

Meanwhile, we're giving spec AF to mid and hib cause it's unfair that only alb has it yet, SBs remain the only sneak without 1 part off evade stun or access to more then one damage type while hib gets to keep instant amnesia because unlike the spec AF issue, that's actually still fair because..... reasons.....

The good news is we have about 4 months max till WoW vanilla releases

DAoC was never designed to be homogeneous. Keep that in mind. If you want an homogeneous experience DAoC isn't for you.
Wed 8 May 2019 4:35 PM by Numatic
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:03 PM
Numatic wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 3:56 PM
Welcome to Dark Age of GroupAlot!

Where grouping is all it's about and soloers dont matter!

Lol. Sorry that just popped into my head and I had to.

The fact that -anyone- in groups can gripe about a soloer being "just as buffed" reeks of irony to me.

You want my God honest opinion? Grouping is severely OP in this game when comparing to even 1 or 2 less in numbers. Even more so if those numbers are soloers. I have yet to witness 8 soloers defeat an 8man group.

If anything, DAoc should have had a 4 player group limit in RvR. You want variety, choose the type of group you want to run.

As an 8man group, a soloer should be able to buff even MORE than someone in a group. For christ sake the guy is solo. You have 8 people. Why should HE have a handicap? It boggles my mind where this logic from 8 mans came from. I have always had this nagging feeling in the back of my head that all these elite 8mans spent years fighting for their cause to remain on top over smaller numbers so they can feel powerful.

If you ask an 8man group, what do they fear? If one of them ever says "a solo <class>" I will admit I'm wrong.

I guess I'm just kinda ranting at the irony. I know there are balance issues etc.. but it just irks me somewhere in my soul when I see people complain that a soloer shouldn't be as "buff" as an 8man. 8mans are for utility, survivability, and damage using numbers and tactics synergistically. Saying a soloer should be handicapped against them feels like some sort of accepted travesty.


these changes are good for soloers since other soloers will have same buffs as you, you wont have to wait 8mins at a pk to run out with optimal charge buffs up. There should be a benefit to running a buffing class in solo, small man or group. You're projecting a lot because you dont see to care about the solo aspect of a buffing/self buffing class, you just want your non buff class to be more powerful and have equal buffs to a class that can spec into buffs ^-^

No I get it, I do. I just never understood the way DAoC went with the whole 8man vs solo argument. It's why stealthers are so popular because it's the only way to avoid them and get your solo fights.

I would be completely okay with removing buff pots for soloers if they were given some sort of number based damage reduction vs the amount of attackers. So if its 8v1, that 1 person would take 75% less damage and deal 75% more or something. Something to dissuade the motion that you "should group or get farmed". Its always been something I never really understood why DAoC went toward the "8man is king of RvR" notion. If that's what they wanted then that's okay. But we were always told by devs that it was meant for all playstyles. But that never made sense with how much emphasis was put into making 8mans stronger and soloers less viable.

I get that's just not how it works. It just bothers me that it was accepted as DAoCs fate.
Wed 8 May 2019 4:40 PM by Mauriac
noobino wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:28 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:21 PM
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:10 PM
You missed an important part of the main post. Spec AF charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.

The new changes will promote 1v1 more than anything since it's simple to just pop your combined forces and start your run. currently you have to wait at the pk for 2-8 minutes depending on how tryhard you want to be and how many charges you want. then when you go out you get a nice fight or you get zerged down by greater numbers and have to repeat the process. With new changes the wait time after dying will be way less so it will promote more people being out actually fighting instead of sitting at the Pk waiting for charge timers. If you factor in that people wont need to pve farm to rvr since potions are a lot cheaper than charges there will be even more active people.

This new change does nothing to "promote" 1v1. It actually does the complete opposite.

All this change did was

1) make SBs in particular weaker relative to other sneaks with the loss of stats. If you don't understand why, read my previous post about quickness and dex soft caps and you will understand.
2) make solo and smallman fights last longer which on Phoenix means more time to get added
3) make it harder for a soloers, like an assassin for example to jump into a zerg fight because now we're going to hit softer and slower and the target, who is likely grouped, will be tankier. Translation from the dev team - join a group or get bent

Problem is, some classes aren't wanted in groups so really what the dev team is saying is just, 8man or get bent.

Meanwhile, we're giving spec AF to mid and hib cause it's unfair that only alb has it yet, SBs remain the only sneak without 1 part off evade stun or access to more then one damage type while hib gets to keep instant amnesia because unlike the spec AF issue, that's actually still fair because..... reasons.....

The good news is we have about 4 months max till WoW vanilla releases

DAoC was never designed to be homogeneous. Keep that in mind. If you want an homogeneous experience DAoC isn't for you.

That's great. Maybe now you can explain what you actually mean by a homogeneous experience? Ummm, no shit? I've been coming back to this game since it released. I don't care about a "homogeneous" experience, whatever you think you're saying by that. I care about the viability of certain playstyles within the larger game. The dev team is making it quite clear, that they want their server to be a zerg and 8 man only playground. That's fine, it's their server. If I had tons of free time and the ability to code I'd make my own server, but I have neither so I have to play with what's available. This server was damn near perfect when it was released. Each successive iteration has pushed soloing and smallman out in favor of 8man and zerging. Again, that's fine, it's their server. But I don't enjoy that. I am voicing my opinion in the hopes I'll get heard and still be welcome in the server. Their response is "yeah sure, as a secondary or tertiary playstyle. Zerg or 8 man or accept being shit. Oh, and while we're at it we're gonna keep nerfing your sneak too so take that."

You said daoc isn't a homogeneous experience. I have no idea what you think you're saying by that but I'll take a guess. If by homogeneous experience you mean removing all charges so everyone has access to the same buffs (homogeneous) while grouped players have access to a superior version of said buffs (homogeneous) what you end up with isn't the version of the game we've been playing
Where there were tiers depending on how hardcore you want to play, there are now only two tiers. The solo/smallman get bent tier, or the buffed out your ass crush everyone tier.

So actually, these changes just made the game more "homogeneous" than it was before. Thanks
Wed 8 May 2019 4:44 PM by Norad
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:21 PM
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:10 PM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:04 PM
Do you think the stealther population is: a) more likely to solo now or b) more likely to group with other stealthers now?
Given that most stealthers try to build to maximum swing speed through a combination of RAs, tweaked template, and CHARGE items given the very nature of their fights. A stealther relies on their ability to drop a target as quickly as possible so that it can re stealth freely or via vanish before he/she is discovered.

We can assume that statistically there are more players that carry a combo forces buff than players that carry a combo buffs potion + spec AF charge in their bag. You have now basically guaranteed that more players will be actively running a spec AF charge, even if it is lower value than the charge one. You can thereby deduce that players will take longer to drop due to the extra absorption of damage from their easily accessed spec AF buff in a 1v1. Also, we can assume that immediately stealthers swing speed will be affected and this will also contribute to a longer 1v1 fight. You have just extended the length of a great percentage of 1v1 fights just in the assassin and stealther category.

You have to think about the repercussions of these changes. Solo play continually seems to be dying for numerous reasons, not just patches and changes. This can be attributed also in part to what certain groups of players chose to do with their time making it harder for the solos to enjoy their play style. But on the developer end, this play style seems to be largely put to the side and forgotten about.
Charges were available at 1.65. Have you made some items easier to get via feather farming etc. …? Yes. So why now remove them on a server that’s based ,now loosely, around said patch?

Bottom line, people still have to go complete their epic for that free AF charge. Frankly a lot of them were not smart enough to use it and simply salvaged it for bars to tinker. Other players farmed for charges and coin to purchase charges.

Leaving the solo play style out of this, you’re messing with people’s time. Something they value and cannot get back. You are also removing a form of income. How many people here have leveled a character that they park at a spot just to farm when it’s open? They turn around and support their play style from farming these drops and selling them.

The trickle effect goes further but I’m sure most people are tired of reading at this point. Groups still need buffs when the buffer drops, and charges for your primary stats are often deployed after a rez or upon the buffer dropping via the use of charges.

I don’t even play a stealther on this patch. I honestly despise being perfed or plucked with arrows but they have their purpose in this game and here I am defending them and other players that are negatively affected by even the slight idea of this patch.


You missed an important part of the main post. Spec AF charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.

The new changes will promote 1v1 more than anything since it's simple to just pop your combined forces and start your run. currently you have to wait at the pk for 2-8 minutes depending on how tryhard you want to be and how many charges you want. then when you go out you get a nice fight or you get zerged down by greater numbers and have to repeat the process. With new changes the wait time after dying will be way less so it will promote more people being out actually fighting instead of sitting at the Pk waiting for charge timers. If you factor in that people wont need to pve farm to rvr since potions are a lot cheaper than charges there will be even more active people.

This new change does nothing to "promote" 1v1. It actually does the complete opposite.

All this change did was

1) make SBs in particular weaker relative to other sneaks with the loss of stats. If you don't understand why, read my previous post about quickness and dex soft caps and you will understand.
2) make solo and smallman fights last longer which on Phoenix means more time to get added
3) make it harder for a soloers, like an assassin for example to jump into a zerg fight because now we're going to hit softer and slower and the target, who is likely grouped, will be tankier. Translation from the dev team - join a group or get bent

Problem is, some classes aren't wanted in groups so really what the dev team is saying is just, 8man or get bent.

Meanwhile, we're giving spec AF to mid and hib cause it's unfair that only alb has it yet, SBs remain the only sneak without 1 part off evade stun or access to more then one damage type while hib gets to keep instant amnesia because unlike the spec AF issue, that's actually still fair because..... reasons.....

The good news is we have about 4 months max till WoW vanilla releases

you missed many of my points on why it's good for solo, less time at pk to juggle charges, cheaper, easier to jump and play. you instead went on to whine about your sb being potentially weaker.

for spec af, every realm already had spec af with charges so it makes sense that everyone gets it again. clerics dont even have enough conc currently to buff it either so its not like albs get spec af buffed in most groups.

Some people already posted how they're excited they dont need to wait at the pk for 8mins to go run with optimal charges. that's the main reason for the changes, your time to death doom and gloom scenario is a little too dramatic and small in comparison to more people coming out because solo because more accessible. dont need as many charges + less wait time + less money on recharge.
Wed 8 May 2019 4:47 PM by Catholocate
I love everything! Except for this: it's very true.

Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:08 PM
....solo/smallman fight being decided by who has their DA or Legion heal charge off cooldown.
Wed 8 May 2019 4:59 PM by Citian
Good changes. Push it live
Wed 8 May 2019 5:04 PM by Tamy
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:44 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:21 PM
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:10 PM
You missed an important part of the main post. Spec AF charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.

The new changes will promote 1v1 more than anything since it's simple to just pop your combined forces and start your run. currently you have to wait at the pk for 2-8 minutes depending on how tryhard you want to be and how many charges you want. then when you go out you get a nice fight or you get zerged down by greater numbers and have to repeat the process. With new changes the wait time after dying will be way less so it will promote more people being out actually fighting instead of sitting at the Pk waiting for charge timers. If you factor in that people wont need to pve farm to rvr since potions are a lot cheaper than charges there will be even more active people.

This new change does nothing to "promote" 1v1. It actually does the complete opposite.

All this change did was

1) make SBs in particular weaker relative to other sneaks with the loss of stats. If you don't understand why, read my previous post about quickness and dex soft caps and you will understand.
2) make solo and smallman fights last longer which on Phoenix means more time to get added
3) make it harder for a soloers, like an assassin for example to jump into a zerg fight because now we're going to hit softer and slower and the target, who is likely grouped, will be tankier. Translation from the dev team - join a group or get bent

Problem is, some classes aren't wanted in groups so really what the dev team is saying is just, 8man or get bent.

Meanwhile, we're giving spec AF to mid and hib cause it's unfair that only alb has it yet, SBs remain the only sneak without 1 part off evade stun or access to more then one damage type while hib gets to keep instant amnesia because unlike the spec AF issue, that's actually still fair because..... reasons.....

The good news is we have about 4 months max till WoW vanilla releases

you missed many of my points on why it's good for solo, less time at pk to juggle charges, cheaper, easier to jump and play. you instead went on to whine about your sb being potentially weaker.

for spec af, every realm already had spec af with charges so it makes sense that everyone gets it again. clerics dont even have enough conc currently to buff it either so its not like albs get spec af buffed in most groups.

Some people already posted how they're excited they dont need to wait at the pk for 8mins to go run with optimal charges. that's the main reason for the changes, your time to death doom and gloom scenario is a little too dramatic and small in comparison to more people coming out because solo because more accessible. dont need as many charges + less wait time + less money on recharge.

Sorry, but why should you wait at the pk for the charges? I usually just use my potions plus af charge and run towards milegate. As soon as I can, I hit my second charge. If I have a fight before that it‘s of course not optimal but also not a dealbreaker. I still don‘t see any benefit around these changes regarding their second goal other than it will be an indirect nerf regarding my main class (scout) as well (due to the fact that ranger/hunter get buffed).

But whatever...I guess adapt or quit playing.
Wed 8 May 2019 5:34 PM by tweedledumb99
florin wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:19 PM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 11:24 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:32 PM
This is socialism. Make the rich poorer instead of making the poor richer.

No, wrong.

No.you

Lol
Wed 8 May 2019 5:45 PM by Numatic
Question, would leaving the buff charges in at their current value be such a bad thing? So those who want to min/max with charges deal with the juggling and cost and those who do not just use the buffpots?

Or was the intent to force solo players into a weaker state than they already were in a bid of "all soloers will be equally buffed"? Also some of us had to spend a great deal of free time farming enough feathers to get those charges in the first place. Seems like alot when you dont have any kind of "refund" for those.
Wed 8 May 2019 6:01 PM by jwalker
I personally do not like the overall stat nerfs but I like all the other changes.
I woud prefer that all stat charge items are changed to buff ALL charge buffs at once (both spec buffs, AF, Acu) and both combined forces and item charges have 20 mins dura. This would easily solve the juggling problem, keeps some of the value of those feather items and does not nerv current stats (especially 25 quickness loss is huge!)

Please don't forget that everyone getting a damage output nerf does not scale properly. We already have issues because of that but it will become even worse (that's for solo/smallman). Examples are:

Minstrel get a relative buff (with everyone having lower hp and damage output) -> minstrel pet and dd shouts retain full damage output, while opponents have fewer hp. Further, the mhb-song retains full value, while opponents do less damage. So relatively the damage output is higher (%based) while melee mitigation is increased.

Bonedancer are harder to kill: pets have same damage output, instant lt only gets minor damage change, pet heal stays constant, instant cast does not suffer from lower dex. Opponents do less damage which is NOT offset by the minor damage drop of the lifetap (slight piety loss) and heal pets are as powerful as before.

and there are so much more examples like viper 5 dot damage (stays the same) vs. casters (have even fewer life) and so on.

I'm writing this here as a ranger player, that most probably is hit by the stat nerf on a pretty low level, if dex/qui selfbuff gets a boost. I'm just convinced that the solo/smallman player already suffer enough by the low overall stats and that a further nerf is not as good choice.
Wed 8 May 2019 6:24 PM by playtester99
So what im taking away is acuity charge is nerfed so supports have to spec red acuity? Why is the staff listening to tank only shitters? You just fucked every druid and cleric, who cares about a bigger conc pool
Wed 8 May 2019 6:51 PM by Ardri
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
Anyways, the two major changes to the last post are:
1) we abandon the 3rd goal, not devaluing existing sc/dq charge items, and make them have the buff potion value thereby effectively removing them
2) all self buffs that aren't already at normal buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example

So...what's the change here? sc/dq charge isn't devalued so you still have to juggle these? And self buff classes have 75 delve now, cool.

Does that mean combi pot bases are buffed and you still have 75 sc/dq charge which means you get more than 101 now? Someone please explain. Not reading 17 pages of noobs rambling nonsense.
Wed 8 May 2019 6:54 PM by chryso
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 6:51 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
Anyways, the two major changes to the last post are:
1) we abandon the 3rd goal, not devaluing existing sc/dq charge items, and make them have the buff potion value thereby effectively removing them
2) all self buffs that aren't already at normal buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example

So...what's the change here? sc/dq charge isn't devalued so you still have to juggle these? And self buff classes have 75 delve now, cool.

Does that mean combi pot bases are buffed and you still have 75 sc/dq charge which means you get more than 101 now? Someone please explain. Not reading 17 pages of noobs rambling nonsense.

I am hoping that pots are lower than self buffing class buffs or that makes self buffs useless.
Wed 8 May 2019 6:59 PM by djegu
I think it's impossible for dev to please everybody, the change are good for average joe who's now 40 and have a life outside daoc, the change is bad for people that took the time to farm for feathers/plat/charges items etc. (myself included) to have an upper edge when they run.

I think the zerg mentality of the server will be slightly more exacerbate with this change, when fight will last maybe 10 to 20sc more than usual. You will for sure see more stealth grp, and the ones that are delusional "hey i can now go solo" will be disgusted very rapidly by the mentality.

Although i deeply hope i'm wrong and that change will change people mentality on how to approach solo fights.

One thing i don't like at all from the dev is the way they approached that change, "please we need feed back on how to reduce cost of charge and juggling"
"yeah sure, increase the duration and reduce the cost" was the most obvious (and asked) change from everybody in that particular thread, but as usual they did stuff people never asked for "thank you, your help was useless but at least we gave you the impression we cared"

Anyway any change that can improve the game are welcomed, And the only way to judge if it's a success or a fail it's to test it and implement it.

Also, please allow us to refund the useless charge items brought with feathers
Wed 8 May 2019 7:14 PM by cere2
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 6:51 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
Anyways, the two major changes to the last post are:
1) we abandon the 3rd goal, not devaluing existing sc/dq charge items, and make them have the buff potion value thereby effectively removing them
2) all self buffs that aren't already at normal buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example

So...what's the change here? sc/dq charge isn't devalued so you still have to juggle these? And self buff classes have 75 delve now, cool.

Does that mean combi pot bases are buffed and you still have 75 sc/dq charge which means you get more than 101 now? Someone please explain. Not reading 17 pages of noobs rambling nonsense.

It means the charges will buff the same as if you were to use combo potion. No difference. Still effective to have if you are rezzed and want to rebuff something immediately, as you will still have to wait to use /potion until combat timer is gone. But in essence for solo's they will have little to no /use anymore.
Wed 8 May 2019 7:20 PM by Cswag80
Awesome job with the compromise! Roll it out!
Wed 8 May 2019 7:24 PM by Bradekes
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 6:51 PM
So...what's the change here? sc/dq charge isn't devalued so you still have to juggle these? And self buff classes have 75 delve now, cool.

Does that mean combi pot bases are buffed and you still have 75 sc/dq charge which means you get more than 101 now? Someone please explain. Not reading 17 pages of noobs rambling nonsense.

SC & DQ charge are only 50 vs 75.. Then buff classes have full delve meaning 75x1.25(spec) = 93 which is buff cap
Wed 8 May 2019 7:25 PM by jhaerik
I don't see a reason to nerf stats down to 83.
Makes zero sense.

Every player that is going to care about the numbers was already running charges. So for them all this works out to be is a stat nerf. No one wants to play DAoC with +83 to stats buffs. The game is slow enough already without gimping swing/cast speed even more.

I'm sorry but all you folks did is come up with a worse version of the Buff NPCs.

Again I 'm only interested in playing something close to either the 1.65 or the pre-labby Classic server ruleset. Both of those had people running around buffed. In fact no version of DAoC other than private servers has EVER had players running around unbuffed/half-ass buffed.

I don't understand the private server hatred of buffs... but it's like playing Chess without knights. It's just part of how the game is played. It always has been and it always will be. From day one people used buff bots. Every single person that played Live DAoC did so while buff bots were being used. Soooo why didn't they all quit on day one? Why did they keep playing if it bothered them so much? You know why? It didn't bother them. They just blamed buff bots every time they did something stupid and died. Instead of doing something intelligent like.. I don't know.. asking a friend for buffs, grouping, or leveling their own buff bot.

DAoC isn't DAoC with crap buffs or no buffs.
Wed 8 May 2019 7:28 PM by Mauriac
cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:14 PM
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 6:51 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
Anyways, the two major changes to the last post are:
1) we abandon the 3rd goal, not devaluing existing sc/dq charge items, and make them have the buff potion value thereby effectively removing them
2) all self buffs that aren't already at normal buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example

So...what's the change here? sc/dq charge isn't devalued so you still have to juggle these? And self buff classes have 75 delve now, cool.

Does that mean combi pot bases are buffed and you still have 75 sc/dq charge which means you get more than 101 now? Someone please explain. Not reading 17 pages of noobs rambling nonsense.

It means the charges will buff the same as if you were to use combo potion. No difference. Still effective to have if you are rezzed and want to rebuff something immediately, as you will still have to wait to use /potion until combat timer is gone. But in essence for solo's they will have little to no /use anymore.

Minus the fact that you will have generally shittier stats and every 1v1 is going to be determined by who has dmg add or Legion heart available.

This does nothing for charge juggling. It just means you have to pop the right charge in your fight then wait 2 minutes cause if you get caught out.... Congrats, get bent. At least before I had the option of running more stats and basically having no window for dmg add or hol or having less AF or stats in favor of using dmg add or hol. Now it's just going to be whoever pops active wins. Still ToA, still shit.
Wed 8 May 2019 7:31 PM by Mauriac
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:25 PM
I don't see a reason to nerf stats down to 83.
Makes zero sense.

Every player that is going to care about the numbers was already running charges. So for them all this works out to be is a stat nerf. No one wants to play DAoC with +83 to stats buffs. The game is slow enough already without gimping swing/cast speed even more.

I'm sorry but all you folks did is come up with a worse version of the Buff NPCs.

Again I 'm only interested in playing something close to either the 1.65 or the pre-labby Classic server ruleset. Both of those had people running around buffed.

In fact no version of DAoC other than private servers has EVER had players running around unbuffed/half-ass buffed.

They have a solution for that. Zerg or 8 man. Or don't play. It sucks but that's what they want. I hate zerging and I don't 8 man so heh.
Wed 8 May 2019 7:33 PM by jhaerik
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:31 PM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:25 PM
I don't see a reason to nerf stats down to 83.
Makes zero sense.

Every player that is going to care about the numbers was already running charges. So for them all this works out to be is a stat nerf. No one wants to play DAoC with +83 to stats buffs. The game is slow enough already without gimping swing/cast speed even more.

I'm sorry but all you folks did is come up with a worse version of the Buff NPCs.

Again I 'm only interested in playing something close to either the 1.65 or the pre-labby Classic server ruleset. Both of those had people running around buffed.

In fact no version of DAoC other than private servers has EVER had players running around unbuffed/half-ass buffed.

They have a solution for that. Zerg or 8 man. Or don't play. It sucks but that's what they want. I hate zerging and I don't 8 man so heh.

Oh I already quit. I just keep up on the forums and wait to see if they ever fix things. So far, not looking good. People are leaving in droves.

Also removing the Acu charge alone is enough to low a massive amount of players.
Wed 8 May 2019 7:36 PM by chryso
This nerf of stat buffs does not go far enough. Self buffing classes are directly nerfed by stat pots and charges. These classes now have spec lines that are largely useless because other classes can get what they had to spec for with just a few gold.
Wed 8 May 2019 7:38 PM by jhaerik
chryso wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:36 PM
This nerf of stat buffs does not go far enough. Self buffing classes are directly nerfed by stat pots and charges. These classes now have spec lines that are largely useless because other classes can get what they had to spec for with just a few gold.

Stop being ridiculous.

Not for a single day in the history of DAoC has anyone good at RvR relied on self stat buffs. A bunch of super casuals died a lot, and asked for them to be buffed a lot. They have NEVER been good. Stop trying to remake the game. That's what EA did.

It's NEVER been a thing. Those buffs are only there to make it cheaper to grind loot/xp. Not for RvR.
Wed 8 May 2019 7:50 PM by cere2
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:28 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:14 PM
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 6:51 PM
So...what's the change here? sc/dq charge isn't devalued so you still have to juggle these? And self buff classes have 75 delve now, cool.

Does that mean combi pot bases are buffed and you still have 75 sc/dq charge which means you get more than 101 now? Someone please explain. Not reading 17 pages of noobs rambling nonsense.

It means the charges will buff the same as if you were to use combo potion. No difference. Still effective to have if you are rezzed and want to rebuff something immediately, as you will still have to wait to use /potion until combat timer is gone. But in essence for solo's they will have little to no /use anymore.

Minus the fact that you will have generally shittier stats and every 1v1 is going to be determined by who has dmg add or Legion heart available.

This does nothing for charge juggling. It just means you have to pop the right charge in your fight then wait 2 minutes cause if you get caught out.... Congrats, get bent. At least before I had the option of running more stats and basically having no window for dmg add or hol or having less AF or stats in favor of using dmg add or hol. Now it's just going to be whoever pops active wins. Still ToA, still shit.

Less charge juggling than before for sure, yeah you will still have legion to /use. <clap> which you always had.... But you wont be counting down 2 minutes for spec af 2 minutes for dex/qui 2 mins for str/con. Rinse/repeat...for eternity. Anyone that juggled this crap knows its a pain.
What you are seeing is people upset with losing some stats, which everyone does unless you have self buffs to spec in, or are grouped...in which case this won't effect you much at all.....
Wed 8 May 2019 7:59 PM by Mauriac
cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:50 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:28 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:14 PM
It means the charges will buff the same as if you were to use combo potion. No difference. Still effective to have if you are rezzed and want to rebuff something immediately, as you will still have to wait to use /potion until combat timer is gone. But in essence for solo's they will have little to no /use anymore.

Minus the fact that you will have generally shittier stats and every 1v1 is going to be determined by who has dmg add or Legion heart available.

This does nothing for charge juggling. It just means you have to pop the right charge in your fight then wait 2 minutes cause if you get caught out.... Congrats, get bent. At least before I had the option of running more stats and basically having no window for dmg add or hol or having less AF or stats in favor of using dmg add or hol. Now it's just going to be whoever pops active wins. Still ToA, still shit.

Less charge juggling than before for sure, yeah you will still have legion to /use. <clap> which you always had.... But you wont be counting down 2 minutes for spec af 2 minutes for dex/qui 2 mins for str/con. Rinse/repeat...for eternity. Anyone that juggled this crap knows its a pain.
What you are seeing is people upset with losing some stats, which everyone does unless you have self buffs to spec in, or are grouped...in which case this won't effect you much at all.....

The stat loss hits different classes races differently though. Saracens, Britons, lurikeens elves, kobold all lose some damage. Norse lose damage, swingspeed and evade because the stat losses set them way under the 250 quick and dex targets. The other races will have to spend very few to no points to keep their defense whereas Norse have to go Aug quick 9 just to hit 250 quick now. That's a big dps and defensive nerf.

I know juggling charges is a pain in the ass. I've been doing it this whole time. But as I said I had options. I could go max stats or lower my stats to keep some actives available. I prefer to have a character who is generally stronger (more stats) than bursty (actives). This change means I have to focus entirely on actives. Therefore, if you want to play your char to the max now, get a solo fight, use your active, then hide 2 minutes then look for another one cause if you get caught in that window you're screwed. That's why I don't like these changes. There was a simple solution. Increase the duration, reduce the cost. Devs asked and ignored the community on that one. Now, all of my stat items are fucking useless and I have to go farm a HoL if I want to keep up. I'd rather not. So much for not devaluing existing items and making rvr more accessible. Bunch of bullshit platitudes from them on that one.
Wed 8 May 2019 8:20 PM by phixion
So in total how much d/q and s/c are we losing?

Can we get a refund merchant for our hard earned charge items that are now useless?
Wed 8 May 2019 8:23 PM by cere2
get a solo fight, use your active, then hide 2 minutes then look for another one cause if you get caught in that window you're screwed. That's why I don't like these changes.

But this is what we do now. If I get caught with my Spec AF down, I am also screwed.
I know what you are saying and maybe I would feel worse if Hib had ability to even make a celt NS, but like I have said before. Each race comes with positives and negatives. Norse get a lot more Str then Elf...So they will suffer more from quickness stat loss, but less from str stat loss. Elf needs to train Aug Str 9 to get even close to SB strength.

The other issue is people having to play PvE for so much to keep up with the costs. Not all people can play for 8 hours a day and 2 of those for farming just to stay competitive. More people out in RvR land is better than half of them farming just so they can RvR later IMO..
Wed 8 May 2019 8:23 PM by Dominus
personally I have 2 of each dex/qui, str/con items so yeah.. that would be nice. And, pretty easy to implement an NPC to buy them back.
Wed 8 May 2019 8:24 PM by Saroi
For my SB I am looking forward to these changes. Sounds good to me.
Wed 8 May 2019 8:43 PM by mhenfhis
while is nice getting rid of charges, loosing 25quickness, is a bummer :O will have to use a faster bow now
Wed 8 May 2019 8:54 PM by Ardri
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:24 PM
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 6:51 PM
So...what's the change here? sc/dq charge isn't devalued so you still have to juggle these? And self buff classes have 75 delve now, cool.

Does that mean combi pot bases are buffed and you still have 75 sc/dq charge which means you get more than 101 now? Someone please explain. Not reading 17 pages of noobs rambling nonsense.

SC & DQ charge are only 50 vs 75.. Then buff classes have full delve meaning 75x1.25(spec) = 93 which is buff cap

Where does it say 50? So this means you only use sc/dq charge if you're rez'd or in combat? So effectively no change really at all from their original planned change. I guess the resist charges aren't going to be in now? Very convoluted post with a lot of words to say almost nothing.
Wed 8 May 2019 9:05 PM by Mavella
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 8:20 PM
So in total how much d/q and s/c are we losing?

Can we get a refund merchant for our hard earned charge items that are now useless?

Losing 18str,con,dex and 25 qui.
Wed 8 May 2019 9:06 PM by Bradekes
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 8:54 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:24 PM
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 6:51 PM
So...what's the change here? sc/dq charge isn't devalued so you still have to juggle these? And self buff classes have 75 delve now, cool.

Does that mean combi pot bases are buffed and you still have 75 sc/dq charge which means you get more than 101 now? Someone please explain. Not reading 17 pages of noobs rambling nonsense.

SC & DQ charge are only 50 vs 75.. Then buff classes have full delve meaning 75x1.25(spec) = 93 which is buff cap

Where does it say 50? So this means you only use sc/dq charge if you're rez'd or in combat? So effectively no change really at all from their original planned change. I guess the resist charges aren't going to be in now? Very convoluted post with a lot of words to say almost nothing.

As stated in the OP stat buffs will be 33 base 50 spec for a total of 83.. And they said they lowered charge stats to 50 from 75.. They forfeited the resist charge idea because many didn't like it
Wed 8 May 2019 9:32 PM by Kappu
It's laughable at all the people who don't understand why someone who invested time to get items is upset when they get nerfed.

MMO's have never been about level playing fields it's whoever farms the items or plays gets that slight advantage. If that's the case they should just remove all realm abilities also...... Because one guy with purge shouldn't win over the guy without right.

Why doesn't epic armor just cap all stats? I mean why even make someone craft a suit just make the Epic cap everything that'd be fair and level.....

Maybe we shouldn't even have buffing classes it's unfair if you hit a group with buffs and you don't have any......

Juggling timers aren't micromanagement it's someone doing it and enjoying that aspect of the game or they wouldn't do it. If you don't enjoy it don't do it. This isn't any different than timed buffs, resists or buff potions. If you feel it's too tedious don't do it and play lazy.

There is also absolutely no point in changing the delve on the charge items to the same as a potion..... It's still completely useless they could at least change the charge to something relevant if they are hell bent on not making them better than a regular potion. There's no point in using them or keeping them in the game if they're just a stat item.

You see you all live in a world where you don't want to work for those small advantages and this post completely exposes it. If you don't have the time to farm well it is what it is, but the guy playing and raiding shouldn't have to suffer because you have other obligations. If you're the kind of person that thinks you deserve stuff without work I feel sorry for you......
Wed 8 May 2019 9:40 PM by stinsfire
They should just allow stat charge items to be refunded at a merchant for their feather price.
Wed 8 May 2019 9:41 PM by sabyrtuth
I don't think I'm alone but I don't juggle spec charges for fun, I do it because it's necessary to stay competitive. Getting rid of that is QoL, I don't care if they become obsolete in the process.
Wed 8 May 2019 9:49 PM by Mauriac
Mavella wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 9:05 PM
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 8:20 PM
So in total how much d/q and s/c are we losing?

Can we get a refund merchant for our hard earned charge items that are now useless?

Losing 18str,con,dex and 25 qui.

more like losing players
Wed 8 May 2019 9:58 PM by Numatic
The only person this hurts is the solo/duo/smallman. In the sense that, when a large number of soloers take on an 8man, they will be even at a higher disadvantage due to weaker buffs. There is also a misunderstanding that if everyone is buffed the same a solo 1v1 would be no different with different value buffs. This is incorrect and thusly changes the dynamic of how the non grouped classes fight in 1v1, 1v2, 2v2 etc.

Here's a breakdown of what this change is if anyone was wondering

1. It essentially nerfed stat buffs for those who ran charges to obtain max stats. They nerfed the charges directly, and added those new values to the buff pots. So for the sake of convenience, you are now weaker than before. They just made being weaker more widely available. So for those who DIDNT run charges ever, this is a buff. But those who didnt knew full well they could if they obtained the same charges. Some just felt it was too much work and too expensive to keep charges up all the time. So instead of fixing the juggling and gold issue and keeping charges the same, they felt it would be better to give 8mans more of an advantage by nerfing those stats. Basically any non spec buffer will never be able to be as buffed as a player who was buffed by a group now. Like 8mans had such an issue with killing a soloer before right? This change came because Buff classes and self buffers complained that "why spec in buffs if you can just use a pot?" While I agree it nullifies a large part of the buff line, nerfing soloers wasnt the answer.

2. They gave spec AF as a conc buff to the other two realms as well as a higher conc pool so they can give out more buffs. They also increased the spec buffs to max old charge values (roughly)

3. This change means 8mans now have an even higher advantage than before because now that large group of congregated solo/duo etc. Will now be weaker.

4. While I'm happy its a buff to self buffers, it was a pretty good stab at the non 8man community. This change will likely force grouping and zerging, and will see the solo scene dwindle even more. I could put up with being rolled, but to say I should be given a handicap against higher number grouped players isnt a good thing. Before you had a small chance to take on an 8man as a large group of solo and duos. But now it's going to be even worse.
Wed 8 May 2019 10:04 PM by Mauriac
Numatic wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 9:58 PM
The only person this hurts is the solo/duo/smallman. In the sense that, when a large number of soloers take on an 8man, they will be even at a higher disadvantage due to weaker buffs. There is also a misunderstanding that if everyone is buffed the same a solo 1v1 would be no different with different value buffs. This is incorrect and thusly changes the dynamic of how the non grouped classes fight in 1v1, 1v2, 2v2 etc.

Here's a breakdown of what this change is if anyone was wondering

1. It essentially nerfed stat buffs for those who ran charges to obtain max stats. They nerfed the charges directly, and added those new values to the buff pots. So for the sake of convenience, you are now weaker than before. They just made being weaker more widely available. So for those who DIDNT run charges ever, this is a buff. But those who didnt knew full well they could if they obtained the same charges. Some just felt it was too much work and too expensive to keep charges up all the time. So instead of fixing the juggling and gold issue and keeping charges the same, they felt it would be better to give 8mans more of an advantage by nerfing those stats. Basically any non spec buffer will never be able to be as buffed as a player who was buffed by a group now. Like 8mans had such an issue with killing a soloer before right? This change came because Buff classes and self buffers complained that "why spec in buffs if you can just use a pot?" While I agree it nullifies a large part of the buff line, nerfing soloers wasnt the answer.

2. They gave spec AF as a conc buff to the other two realms as well as a higher conc pool so they can give out more buffs. They also increased the spec buffs to max old charge values (roughly)

3. This change means 8mans now have an even higher advantage than before because now that large group of congregated solo/duo etc. Will now be weaker.

4. While I'm happy its a buff to self buffers, it was a pretty good stab at the non 8man community. This change will likely force grouping and zerging, and will see the solo scene dwindle even more. I could put up with being rolled, but to say I should be given a handicap against higher number grouped players isnt a good thing. Before you had a small chance to take on an 8man as a large group of solo and duos. But now it's going to be even worse.

good summary of the changes. im pretty damn dissapointed by them. i solo and smallman, i dont zerg or 8man. This is basically the devs telling me and my playstyle to go f-myself. I've had a feeling for a while with each incremental change that the devs favor zerging and 8man play over all else. This simply reinforces that belief.
Wed 8 May 2019 10:16 PM by Estat
Kappu wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 9:32 PM
Juggling timers aren't micromanagement it's someone doing it and enjoying that aspect of the game or they wouldn't do it. If you don't enjoy it don't do it.
I dont enjoy suiciding for xp, yet i do it all the time. Not having fun while doing it, but im doing it. I guess im not alone.

I dont enjoy juggling cooldowns and farming money to pay for my cooldowns. I do enjoy winning though.

If you tell me "not having fun, dont do it" you are really telling me "not having fun, quit playing".
Wed 8 May 2019 10:21 PM by Mauriac
Estat wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 10:16 PM
Kappu wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 9:32 PM
Juggling timers aren't micromanagement it's someone doing it and enjoying that aspect of the game or they wouldn't do it. If you don't enjoy it don't do it.
I dont enjoy suiciding for xp, yet i do it all the time. Not having fun while doing it, but im doing it. I guess im not alone.

I dont enjoy juggling cooldowns and farming money to pay for my cooldowns. I do enjoy winning though.

If you tell me "not having fun, dont do it" you are really telling me "not having fun, quit playing".

exactly. with these changes the devs are saying "solos/smallman, accept being 2nd class citizens on our 8man/zerg server. keep playing so we can farm you or stfu and gtfo"
Wed 8 May 2019 11:35 PM by gruenesschaf
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 10:21 PM
with these changes the devs are saying "solos/smallman, accept being 2nd class citizens on our 8man/zerg server. keep playing so we can farm you or stfu and gtfo"

Probably pretty pointless to answer you but whatever.

You are currently charging, why? Because it's the best possible stats you can achieve and many of the non buffer enemies you'll encounter will likely have the same stats. After this change you don't charge and neither do your non buffer enemies because by using the potion you already have the best possible stats you can achieve.

Does it make you slightly weaker against people with group buffs than you are now once you have all charges up? Yes. Does it make you stronger if you don't stick around for 4 - 6 minutes at the tk before starting a run or letting a buff fade to have a free charge timer? Yes.

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that this is a change that makes life harder for solos.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:02 AM by Mavella
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 11:35 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 10:21 PM
with these changes the devs are saying "solos/smallman, accept being 2nd class citizens on our 8man/zerg server. keep playing so we can farm you or stfu and gtfo"

Probably pretty pointless to answer you but whatever.

You are currently charging, why? Because it's the best possible stats you can achieve and many of the non buffer enemies you'll encounter will likely have the same stats. After this change you don't charge and neither do your non buffer enemies because by using the potion you already have the best possible stats you can achieve.

Does it make you slightly weaker against people with group buffs than you are now once you have all charges up? Yes. Does it make you stronger if you don't stick around for 4 - 6 minutes at the tk before starting a run or letting a buff fade to have a free charge timer? Yes.

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that this is a change that makes life harder for solos.

When heal charge, damage add, or on demand ablative is available every single fight or needs to be ready every single fight it does impact solo play. How's does it not? Most people have a 2-4 minute window to pop these charges every 10 minutes. If you slip up with the current system your window of opportunity shrinks or you end up with a cooldown imparing your buff cycle.

You're just placing the cost of charging from stats and spec af to these in combat cooldown and making them pretty much required to be popped in any competitive 1v1. This alters this type of game play dramatically.

If I pop a heal pot + legion charge every fight that's basically a 30% heal available every 2 minutes? What's the cooldown on IP again?

It's not just a stat nerf. You're going to change the solo meta completely with these changes.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:21 AM by florin
Let me point out that not all people hang out at pk waiting for charge timers. Stealthers can hit af and run out and buff on the go. Is it annoying? Yes but not as annoying as losing 80 points of stats.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:23 AM by tweedledumb99
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:02 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 11:35 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 10:21 PM
with these changes the devs are saying "solos/smallman, accept being 2nd class citizens on our 8man/zerg server. keep playing so we can farm you or stfu and gtfo"

Probably pretty pointless to answer you but whatever.

You are currently charging, why? Because it's the best possible stats you can achieve and many of the non buffer enemies you'll encounter will likely have the same stats. After this change you don't charge and neither do your non buffer enemies because by using the potion you already have the best possible stats you can achieve.

Does it make you slightly weaker against people with group buffs than you are now once you have all charges up? Yes. Does it make you stronger if you don't stick around for 4 - 6 minutes at the tk before starting a run or letting a buff fade to have a free charge timer? Yes.

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that this is a change that makes life harder for solos.

When heal charge, damage add, or on demand ablative is available every single fight or needs to be ready every single fight it does impact solo play. How's does it not? Most people have a 2-4 minute window to pop these charges every 10 minutes. If you slip up with the current system your window of opportunity shrinks or you end up with a cooldown imparing your buff cycle.

You're just placing the cost of charging from stats and spec af to these in combat cooldown and making them pretty much required to be popped in any competitive 1v1. This alters this type of game play dramatically.

If I pop a heal pot + legion charge every fight that's basically a 30% heal available every 2 minutes? What's the cooldown on IP again?

It's not just a stat nerf. You're going to change the solo meta completely with these changes.

Sure, but now everyone can choose which charge to use in a fight because we're not on cooldown for 60-80% of the time. Then it's less random chance who has the luck of not being on cooldown - neither of us are so it's down to better choice of /use, better timing of it, and the /use available are cheap and can be put on any crafted gear.

It changes the meta for sure but that IS NOT a bad thing.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:25 AM by Quathan
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
After the friendly feedback in the last thread we're going to do some changes to the announced changes.


gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
2) Remove the charge timer
Would remove juggling, make everyone always have all charges up and be rather expensive
Absolutely the thing I'm voting for then

Even if you buffed the pot buffs to 70 I would still use charges because I need the quickness they give for my bow..

You guys made a great server here.. There really isn't much to complain about.. so charges expensive? If that's a real problem for people have I just dont think they are suited for games like these..

I'm fine with groups having enough conc. for their buffs and solo's having a pot their give them all the buffs they need..

But taking away even a single point of the Quickness available is hurting me as an Archer right now.. Fast shots is all I have at this point and making me dump all my Realm Skill Points into the speed is just too expensive to ever make it work..

So I'm on my knees.. Please leave the charges as they are..

And If developers read this please take the time to answer my post.. I really wish for some answers so I could brew up a suggestion thread for changes.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:25 AM by Numatic
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 11:35 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 10:21 PM
with these changes the devs are saying "solos/smallman, accept being 2nd class citizens on our 8man/zerg server. keep playing so we can farm you or stfu and gtfo"

Probably pretty pointless to answer you but whatever.

You are currently charging, why? Because it's the best possible stats you can achieve and many of the non buffer enemies you'll encounter will likely have the same stats. After this change you don't charge and neither do your non buffer enemies because by using the potion you already have the best possible stats you can achieve.

Does it make you slightly weaker against people with group buffs than you are now once you have all charges up? Yes. Does it make you stronger if you don't stick around for 4 - 6 minutes at the tk before starting a run or letting a buff fade to have a free charge timer? Yes.

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that this is a change that makes life harder for solos.

I think the general consensus is that, if DAoc was meant for all playstyles, why set soloers at even more of a disadvantage against group players? Shouldnt it be the opposite considering the advantage they already have by just being grouped? I think the take away here is that while the general idea is that "all non buffers are on even terms with buffs" is great, if it worked that way. From my experience in RvR, there are alot of "minizergs" with 12, 15, or 20 people or so who are all solo/duo/trio etc. If an 8man can look at that and not have the least concern for their well being, do you think solo should be at an even more disadvantage? I know you want to play Even Steven, but there is no reason to look at an 8man and think they should have even more.

The reason why you have such a large stealther population is because they are the only ones who can do 1v1 anymore. And even then that's not usually the case. The 1v1 or 2v2 etc scene here nearly extinct because of 8 mans.

Think of it this way. Be a little crazy and say "We are now introducing a cumulative damage reduction against ungrouped players depending on the amount players in the attacking group". See what happens. I bet you get 4000 made up scenarios by pro 8mans about how that could be bad, but not one based on how in reality it would work. In essence they dont want to lose the ability to train roll all the solo, duo, trio etc..
Thu 9 May 2019 12:26 AM by tweedledumb99
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:21 AM
Let me point out that not all people hang out at pk waiting for charge timers. Stealthers can hit af and run out and buff on the go. Is it annoying? Yes but not as annoying as losing 80 points of stats.

Who on earth are you fighting as a solo stealth who isnt ALSO getting the same 17 or 25 pts of stat loss? Am I missing something here? High PF spec+Mastery of Arcane Rangers? Who have bad base bow/stealth/dps because they're spec'd that way?

How on earth is that a problem if you're fighting other solos who have the same stats as you?
Thu 9 May 2019 12:28 AM by tweedledumb99
What drugs are you ppl taking that think that 17 pts of str/dex and 45 hp is letting you 1v4 before the upcoming changes?

Post a video lol or I'm calling BS.

That's got to be the silliest reason someone could cook up, I swear people just complain because they're globally afraid of change.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:28 AM by florin
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:26 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:21 AM
Let me point out that not all people hang out at pk waiting for charge timers. Stealthers can hit af and run out and buff on the go. Is it annoying? Yes but not as annoying as losing 80 points of stats.

Who on earth are you fighting as a solo stealth who isnt ALSO getting the same 17 or 25 pts of stat loss? Am I missing something here? High PF spec+Mastery of Arcane Rangers? Who have bad base bow/stealth/dps because they're spec'd that way?

How on earth is that a problem if you're fighting other solos who have the same stats as you?

Just cause I solo doesn’t meant I don’t attack grouped players. I kill casters, healers and stupid heros with no common sense all the time
Thu 9 May 2019 12:32 AM by tweedledumb99
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:28 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:26 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:21 AM
Let me point out that not all people hang out at pk waiting for charge timers. Stealthers can hit af and run out and buff on the go. Is it annoying? Yes but not as annoying as losing 80 points of stats.

Who on earth are you fighting as a solo stealth who isnt ALSO getting the same 17 or 25 pts of stat loss? Am I missing something here? High PF spec+Mastery of Arcane Rangers? Who have bad base bow/stealth/dps because they're spec'd that way?

How on earth is that a problem if you're fighting other solos who have the same stats as you?

Just cause I solo doesn’t meant I don’t attack grouped players. I kill casters, healers and stupid heros with no common sense all the time

Lol what? Show me you living through one of those fights, where you were actually solo the there's a chance that it TRULY was your +17 stats that made a difference (i.e. a vid of you 1v3 or 1v4 with a buff class - anything other than 1v3 or 1v4 doesn't count, and grp w no buff classes doesn't count).

Give me a single reason to believe you are applying any common sense to what you're thinking
Thu 9 May 2019 12:40 AM by florin
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:32 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:28 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:26 AM
Who on earth are you fighting as a solo stealth who isnt ALSO getting the same 17 or 25 pts of stat loss? Am I missing something here? High PF spec+Mastery of Arcane Rangers? Who have bad base bow/stealth/dps because they're spec'd that way?

How on earth is that a problem if you're fighting other solos who have the same stats as you?

Just cause I solo doesn’t meant I don’t attack grouped players. I kill casters, healers and stupid heros with no common sense all the time

Lol what? Show me you living through one of those fights, where you were actually solo the there's a chance that it TRULY was your +17 stats that made a difference (i.e. a vid of you 1v3 or 1v4 with a buff class - anything other than 1v3 or 1v4 doesn't count, and grp w no buff classes doesn't count).

Give me a single reason to believe you are applying any common sense to what you're thinking

You’re seriously either a troll or low iq. I’ve killed plenty and either not survived (but got the kill) or survived barely and vanished. In keeps, open fields, medding, 1 shot casters as fg runs by. You think these stats don’t matter? It all matters - 18/str dex feeds into our dps, dex qui our evades and since we we got fucked over on dodger. This is a min maxed setup not some slambot that hangs out at ligen.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:45 AM by florin
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 11:35 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 10:21 PM
with these changes the devs are saying "solos/smallman, accept being 2nd class citizens on our 8man/zerg server. keep playing so we can farm you or stfu and gtfo"

Probably pretty pointless to answer you but whatever.

You are currently charging, why? Because it's the best possible stats you can achieve and many of the non buffer enemies you'll encounter will likely have the same stats. After this change you don't charge and neither do your non buffer enemies because by using the potion you already have the best possible stats you can achieve.

Does it make you slightly weaker against people with group buffs than you are now once you have all charges up? Yes. Does it make you stronger if you don't stick around for 4 - 6 minutes at the tk before starting a run or letting a buff fade to have a free charge timer? Yes.

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that this is a change that makes life harder for solos.

Every post from you reduces my confidence in the long term health of this server. Not getting that this hurts stealther life after admitting a few sentences earlier that it’s a nerf is next level cognitive dissonance.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:46 AM by Mauriac
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 11:35 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 10:21 PM
with these changes the devs are saying "solos/smallman, accept being 2nd class citizens on our 8man/zerg server. keep playing so we can farm you or stfu and gtfo"

Probably pretty pointless to answer you but whatever.

You are currently charging, why? Because it's the best possible stats you can achieve and many of the non buffer enemies you'll encounter will likely have the same stats. After this change you don't charge and neither do your non buffer enemies because by using the potion you already have the best possible stats you can achieve.

Does it make you slightly weaker against people with group buffs than you are now once you have all charges up? Yes. Does it make you stronger if you don't stick around for 4 - 6 minutes at the tk before starting a run or letting a buff fade to have a free charge timer? Yes.

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that this is a change that makes life harder for solos.

right cause taking a giant stat nerf on a norse that puts me under the evade/swing speed caps, drops my dmg and now requires me to juggle DA or heal charge every fight instead of stats is totally NOT going to make my life harder as a solo.

give me a break dude. i get it thats it not your preferred playstyle but you clearly havent thought through how this is going to affect solo play, and you certainly havent thought it down the specifics of individual class/race combinations.

but hey, thanks for responding even though you're still incorrect in your assumptions.

edit: let me put this as bluntly as a can

1) you made this SLIGHTLY cheaper
2) youre nerfing a ton of items i spent time and plats to get
3) but calling it ok by making me use different items which is why its only slightly cheaper
4) now i have to juggle in fights instead of between fights
5) my character on the whole is weaker
6) the benefit to me is i have to click one button to go rvr

i'd rather have the current sytem
Thu 9 May 2019 12:53 AM by tweedledumb99
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:40 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:32 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:28 AM
Just cause I solo doesn’t meant I don’t attack grouped players. I kill casters, healers and stupid heros with no common sense all the time

Lol what? Show me you living through one of those fights, where you were actually solo the there's a chance that it TRULY was your +17 stats that made a difference (i.e. a vid of you 1v3 or 1v4 with a buff class - anything other than 1v3 or 1v4 doesn't count, and grp w no buff classes doesn't count).

Give me a single reason to believe you are applying any common sense to what you're thinking

You’re seriously either a troll or low iq. I’ve killed plenty and either not survived (but got the kill) or survived barely and vanished. In keeps, open fields, medding, 1 shot casters as fg runs by. You think these stats don’t matter? It all matters - 18/str dex feeds into our dps, dex qui our evades and since we we got fucked over on dodger. This is a min maxed setup not some slambot that hangs out at ligen.

lol ok I'm done, you don't want to see what most other ppl see, that this change is good for the game.

I can understand that you can 1 shot casters occasionally or helps in keeps, so that's actually the first coherent point you've made, well done.

It's just that the benefit to you isn't worth the cost of all those classes being unwanted in grps.

The cost of you losing 17 str/dex/whatever for your edge-case scenarios so they can be more viable in the game overall is 100% worth it, nice try tho.

Also re your terrible attempt at personal insults, try harder, you're not good at it.

Also, if you're gonna (attempt to) insult me by calling me a slambot, but keep dodging when I say come duel me, I'm gonna keep laughing.

Edit: I promise I wont use slam if you come duel me.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:58 AM by Mavella
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:23 AM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:02 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 11:35 PM
Probably pretty pointless to answer you but whatever.

You are currently charging, why? Because it's the best possible stats you can achieve and many of the non buffer enemies you'll encounter will likely have the same stats. After this change you don't charge and neither do your non buffer enemies because by using the potion you already have the best possible stats you can achieve.

Does it make you slightly weaker against people with group buffs than you are now once you have all charges up? Yes. Does it make you stronger if you don't stick around for 4 - 6 minutes at the tk before starting a run or letting a buff fade to have a free charge timer? Yes.

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that this is a change that makes life harder for solos.

When heal charge, damage add, or on demand ablative is available every single fight or needs to be ready every single fight it does impact solo play. How's does it not? Most people have a 2-4 minute window to pop these charges every 10 minutes. If you slip up with the current system your window of opportunity shrinks or you end up with a cooldown imparing your buff cycle.

You're just placing the cost of charging from stats and spec af to these in combat cooldown and making them pretty much required to be popped in any competitive 1v1. This alters this type of game play dramatically.

If I pop a heal pot + legion charge every fight that's basically a 30% heal available every 2 minutes? What's the cooldown on IP again?

It's not just a stat nerf. You're going to change the solo meta completely with these changes.

Sure, but now everyone can choose which charge to use in a fight because we're not on cooldown for 60-80% of the time. Then it's less random chance who has the luck of not being on cooldown - neither of us are so it's down to better choice of /use, better timing of it, and the /use available are cheap and can be put on any crafted gear.

It changes the meta for sure but that IS NOT a bad thing.

People having access to aotg2 or IP2 every 2 minutes is fucking idiotic. If you don't think so I just used the adjective thay describes you in the previous sentence. The current charge system forced give and take with a small window of opportunity to to have those in combat effects to even possibly even be usable or play an effect. After it'll be use these charges or your chance of winning plummets. It's playing the same game but making it worse in the process.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:59 AM by gruenesschaf
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:45 AM
Every post from you reduces my confidence in the long term health of this server. Not getting that this hurts stealther life after admitting a few sentences earlier that it’s a nerf is next level cognitive dissonance.

Why is there any cognitive dissonance?

In one scenario you lose some stats but gain those stats in another, after this change there is no possible way as a solo non buffer to ever see another non buffer solo that's better buffed than you. It's much more likely (almost guaranteed even) that both of you have your charge timers up and that you're hence not running in the scenario where you just charged up some buff and then get an inc of someone who is able to use their heal or dd or whatever charge while you're not able to.

This is neither a straight up nerf under all circumstances nor a buff under all, it is however a straight up qol improvement at the cost of achievable max stats while raising the standard stats.

It makes soloing / small manning a lot more accessible / less of a hassle.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:59 AM by Mauriac
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:53 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:40 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:32 AM
Lol what? Show me you living through one of those fights, where you were actually solo the there's a chance that it TRULY was your +17 stats that made a difference (i.e. a vid of you 1v3 or 1v4 with a buff class - anything other than 1v3 or 1v4 doesn't count, and grp w no buff classes doesn't count).

Give me a single reason to believe you are applying any common sense to what you're thinking

You’re seriously either a troll or low iq. I’ve killed plenty and either not survived (but got the kill) or survived barely and vanished. In keeps, open fields, medding, 1 shot casters as fg runs by. You think these stats don’t matter? It all matters - 18/str dex feeds into our dps, dex qui our evades and since we we got fucked over on dodger. This is a min maxed setup not some slambot that hangs out at ligen.

lol ok I'm done, you don't want to see what most other ppl see, that this change is good for the game.

I can understand that you can 1 shot casters occasionally or helps in keeps, so that's actually the first coherent point you've made, well done.

It's just that the benefit to you isn't worth the cost of all those classes being unwanted in grps.

The cost of you losing 17 str/dex/whatever for your edge-case scenarios so they can be more viable in the game overall is 100% worth it, nice try tho.

Also re your terrible attempt at personal insults, try harder, you're not good at it.

Also, if you're gonna (attempt to) insult me by calling me a slambot, but keep dodging when I say come duel me, I'm gonna keep laughing.

Edit: I promise I wont use slam if you come duel me.

i havent seen a single group that runs stat buffs and charges over and actual stat buffer and healing class.

basically ever. your point is null
Thu 9 May 2019 1:01 AM by florin
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:53 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:40 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:32 AM
Lol what? Show me you living through one of those fights, where you were actually solo the there's a chance that it TRULY was your +17 stats that made a difference (i.e. a vid of you 1v3 or 1v4 with a buff class - anything other than 1v3 or 1v4 doesn't count, and grp w no buff classes doesn't count).

Give me a single reason to believe you are applying any common sense to what you're thinking

You’re seriously either a troll or low iq. I’ve killed plenty and either not survived (but got the kill) or survived barely and vanished. In keeps, open fields, medding, 1 shot casters as fg runs by. You think these stats don’t matter? It all matters - 18/str dex feeds into our dps, dex qui our evades and since we we got fucked over on dodger. This is a min maxed setup not some slambot that hangs out at ligen.

lol ok I'm done, you don't want to see what most other ppl see, that this change is good for the game.

I can understand that you can 1 shot casters occasionally or helps in keeps, so that's actually the first coherent point you've made, well done.

It's just that the benefit to you isn't worth the cost of all those classes being unwanted in grps.

The cost of you losing 17 str/dex/whatever for your edge-case scenarios so they can be more viable in the game overall is 100% worth it, nice try tho.

Also re your terrible attempt at personal insults, try harder, you're not good at it.

Also, if you're gonna (attempt to) insult me by calling me a slambot, but keep dodging when I say come duel me, I'm gonna keep laughing.

Edit: I promise I wont use slam if you come duel me.

Like I said in your unsolicited pm- I will find you
Thu 9 May 2019 1:05 AM by tweedledumb99
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:58 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:23 AM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:02 AM
When heal charge, damage add, or on demand ablative is available every single fight or needs to be ready every single fight it does impact solo play. How's does it not? Most people have a 2-4 minute window to pop these charges every 10 minutes. If you slip up with the current system your window of opportunity shrinks or you end up with a cooldown imparing your buff cycle.

You're just placing the cost of charging from stats and spec af to these in combat cooldown and making them pretty much required to be popped in any competitive 1v1. This alters this type of game play dramatically.

If I pop a heal pot + legion charge every fight that's basically a 30% heal available every 2 minutes? What's the cooldown on IP again?

It's not just a stat nerf. You're going to change the solo meta completely with these changes.

Sure, but now everyone can choose which charge to use in a fight because we're not on cooldown for 60-80% of the time. Then it's less random chance who has the luck of not being on cooldown - neither of us are so it's down to better choice of /use, better timing of it, and the /use available are cheap and can be put on any crafted gear.

It changes the meta for sure but that IS NOT a bad thing.

People having access to aotg2 or IP2 every 2 minutes is fucking idiotic. If you don't think so I just used the adjective thay describes you in the previous sentence. The current charge system forced give and take with a small window of opportunity to to have those in combat effects to even possibly even be usable or play an effect. After it'll be use these charges or your chance of winning plummets. It's playing the same game but making it worse in the process.

Man, can't keep away from the personal insults when you don't have a leg to stand on eh?

IP2? What?

Anger of the gods? What?

Everyone has access to cheap /use charges, end of story.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:06 AM by tweedledumb99
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:01 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:53 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:40 AM
You’re seriously either a troll or low iq. I’ve killed plenty and either not survived (but got the kill) or survived barely and vanished. In keeps, open fields, medding, 1 shot casters as fg runs by. You think these stats don’t matter? It all matters - 18/str dex feeds into our dps, dex qui our evades and since we we got fucked over on dodger. This is a min maxed setup not some slambot that hangs out at ligen.

lol ok I'm done, you don't want to see what most other ppl see, that this change is good for the game.

I can understand that you can 1 shot casters occasionally or helps in keeps, so that's actually the first coherent point you've made, well done.

It's just that the benefit to you isn't worth the cost of all those classes being unwanted in grps.

The cost of you losing 17 str/dex/whatever for your edge-case scenarios so they can be more viable in the game overall is 100% worth it, nice try tho.

Also re your terrible attempt at personal insults, try harder, you're not good at it.

Also, if you're gonna (attempt to) insult me by calling me a slambot, but keep dodging when I say come duel me, I'm gonna keep laughing.

Edit: I promise I wont use slam if you come duel me.

Like I said in your unsolicited pm- I will find you

Sure, good, do that. Like I asked for 2-3 times, just tell me your charname so I know who I'm fighting That way I'll know not to use slam, etc.

(5 bucks he's gonna dodge again lol, that advanced evade working good for ya xD).
Thu 9 May 2019 1:20 AM by tweedledumb99
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:59 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:53 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:40 AM
You’re seriously either a troll or low iq. I’ve killed plenty and either not survived (but got the kill) or survived barely and vanished. In keeps, open fields, medding, 1 shot casters as fg runs by. You think these stats don’t matter? It all matters - 18/str dex feeds into our dps, dex qui our evades and since we we got fucked over on dodger. This is a min maxed setup not some slambot that hangs out at ligen.

lol ok I'm done, you don't want to see what most other ppl see, that this change is good for the game.

I can understand that you can 1 shot casters occasionally or helps in keeps, so that's actually the first coherent point you've made, well done.

It's just that the benefit to you isn't worth the cost of all those classes being unwanted in grps.

The cost of you losing 17 str/dex/whatever for your edge-case scenarios so they can be more viable in the game overall is 100% worth it, nice try tho.

Also re your terrible attempt at personal insults, try harder, you're not good at it.

Also, if you're gonna (attempt to) insult me by calling me a slambot, but keep dodging when I say come duel me, I'm gonna keep laughing.

Edit: I promise I wont use slam if you come duel me.

i havent seen a single group that runs stat buffs and charges over and actual stat buffer and healing class.

basically ever. your point is null

Lol what?

I've absolutely been in groups that do that, #1.

#2: people will take healing spec over buff spec and that's the issue, limiting people's playstyle or their chance of getting a group if they do more than 1 activity and dont want to respec for 2.5p twice a day.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:22 AM by florin
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:06 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:01 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:53 AM
lol ok I'm done, you don't want to see what most other ppl see, that this change is good for the game.

I can understand that you can 1 shot casters occasionally or helps in keeps, so that's actually the first coherent point you've made, well done.

It's just that the benefit to you isn't worth the cost of all those classes being unwanted in grps.

The cost of you losing 17 str/dex/whatever for your edge-case scenarios so they can be more viable in the game overall is 100% worth it, nice try tho.

Also re your terrible attempt at personal insults, try harder, you're not good at it.

Also, if you're gonna (attempt to) insult me by calling me a slambot, but keep dodging when I say come duel me, I'm gonna keep laughing.

Edit: I promise I wont use slam if you come duel me.

Like I said in your unsolicited pm- I will find you

Sure, good, do that. Like I asked for 2-3 times, just tell me your charname so I know who I'm fighting That way I'll know not to use slam, etc.

(5 bucks he's gonna dodge again lol, that advanced evade working good for ya xD).

No need I have plenty of purge
Thu 9 May 2019 1:29 AM by florin
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:59 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:45 AM
Every post from you reduces my confidence in the long term health of this server. Not getting that this hurts stealther life after admitting a few sentences earlier that it’s a nerf is next level cognitive dissonance.

Why is there any cognitive dissonance?

In one scenario you lose some stats but gain those stats in another, after this change there is no possible way as a solo non buffer to ever see another non buffer solo that's better buffed than you, it's much more likely (almost guaranteed even) that both of you have your charge timers up and that you're hence not running in the scenario where you just charged up some buff and then get an inc of someone who is able to use their heal or dd or whatever charge while you're not able to.

This is neither a straight up nerf under all circumstances nor a buff under all, it is however a straight up qol improvement at the cost of achievable max stats while raising the standard stats.

It makes soloing / small manning a lot more accessible / less of a hassle.

Let’s put aside the failed delivery on keeping the value of the charged items goal. While it’s a slap in the face that these items are devalued after Collective thousands of hours of pve gaming investment, I would welcome it if the combo pot was of equal value.

That being said - you’re making a broad assumption. You’re assuming everyone solo will run combo pot. You’re assuming that frontier pve soloers will be buffed with a 500g barrel. Assuming that the streams of solo albs running into rvr for task credit suicide will go buffed. This is not the case so why balance around that?

Secondly many of planned out characters race and starting stats to hit certain goals like qui softcap with full buffs available for 9 months or more. Some races are hurt more than others. No mention of addressing this from staff.

To your response - I understand the qol difference between being able to run out right after death (something we have a conflicting mechanic that prevents this during relic movement) and waiting charges. It’s really not that big of a deal compared to this slight adjustment. I pop AF at pk, run out to Amy and pop str/con, stealth and try my luck - it’s part of the rng. Now we get always on buffs at the cost of being nerfed. That’s the dissonance saying it’s good when many people say it’s bad. Like smoking when you know it’s bad for you.

Will there be players with higher buffs? Now those players are harder to kill as a solo. That is a nerf.

Not even sure why you would bring up the point of non buffers. Seriously like why?
Thu 9 May 2019 1:35 AM by Kappu
Estat wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 10:16 PM
Kappu wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 9:32 PM
Juggling timers aren't micromanagement it's someone doing it and enjoying that aspect of the game or they wouldn't do it. If you don't enjoy it don't do it.
I dont enjoy suiciding for xp, yet i do it all the time. Not having fun while doing it, but im doing it. I guess im not alone.

I dont enjoy juggling cooldowns and farming money to pay for my cooldowns. I do enjoy winning though.

If you tell me "not having fun, dont do it" you are really telling me "not having fun, quit playing".

Yeah, quit playing your idea of fun shouldn't trump someone else's idea of fun......
Thu 9 May 2019 1:37 AM by cere2
I said this earlier but seems it should be said again.

You didn't win solo vs smallman before this change, you won't after.
You didn't win smallman vs FG before this change, you won't after.

For those that can PA/CD a caster in a group and get the kill and vanish before group kills you, losing 25 quickness or .126 of a second in swing speed will not change the outcome.
The latest posts about killing fg's with solos is hilarious.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:38 AM by tweedledumb99
/snip
Florin says: "No need I have plenty of purge"
[/quote]

Ok.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:42 AM by florin
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:37 AM
I said this earlier but seems it should be said again.

You didn't win solo vs smallman before this change, you won't after.
You didn't win smallman vs FG before this change, you won't after.

For those that can PA/CD a caster in a group and get the kill and vanish before group kills you, losing 25 quickness or .126 of a second in swing speed will not change the outcome.
The latest posts about killing fg's with solos is hilarious.

You haven’t played a good assassin then

If it doesn’t matter then why change it? Call it even and leave it the same value.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:47 AM by Mavella
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:05 AM
Man, can't keep away from the personal insults when you don't have a leg to stand on eh?

IP2? What?

Anger of the gods? What?

Everyone has access to cheap /use charges, end of story.


Are you a moron? Aotg 2 12 dps damage add charge 11.3 dps. IP2 25% heal heal pot plus legion charge for 500~ hp average full buffed hp is what 1500-1750? These are extremely strong abilities on 10-15 minute cooldown and we're proposing making then available every 2 minutes. Having to full buff with charges curbed how often these broken charges were usable and their impact overall. I've beaten people without my spec af up when they did. I won't beat they same person if they can pop a 500hp heal or 11.3dps damage add and I can't. That's the fucking point.

The stat nerf sucks because it's completely unnecessary.

Also great job flexing on an heavy tanked specced to solo. If you lost to a stealther with moose and IP up you should probably uninstall. No one cares.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:50 AM by cere2
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:42 AM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:37 AM
I said this earlier but seems it should be said again.

You didn't win solo vs smallman before this change, you won't after.
You didn't win smallman vs FG before this change, you won't after.

For those that can PA/CD a caster in a group and get the kill and vanish before group kills you, losing 25 quickness or .126 of a second in swing speed will not change the outcome.
The latest posts about killing fg's with solos is hilarious.

You haven’t played a good assassin then

If it doesn’t matter then why change it? Call it when and leave it the same value.

Oh really. Your taking on lvl 50 smallman's ...meaning 3+ visi's and winning with your assassin? LMAO post this video! In 12 years of playing Live never saw someone that could do that vs any 3 man visi that wasn't afk so you must be amazing......
The only one's I hear complaining are Norse SB's. Because they chose a race with high STR and now take the worst hit when they have to re-assign RA's from MOP to aug quick. Or....you can always race respec and deal with training aug Str instead. Nothing said about Elfs/Luri/Saracen/Iconnu etc...how much aug str do they need to come close to norse?
Why not make them all 75 right? How much more do you want to crap on self-buffing classes specs. Yeesh.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:51 AM by Numatic
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:59 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:45 AM
Every post from you reduces my confidence in the long term health of this server. Not getting that this hurts stealther life after admitting a few sentences earlier that it’s a nerf is next level cognitive dissonance.

Why is there any cognitive dissonance?

In one scenario you lose some stats but gain those stats in another, after this change there is no possible way as a solo non buffer to ever see another non buffer solo that's better buffed than you. It's much more likely (almost guaranteed even) that both of you have your charge timers up and that you're hence not running in the scenario where you just charged up some buff and then get an inc of someone who is able to use their heal or dd or whatever charge while you're not able to.

This is neither a straight up nerf under all circumstances nor a buff under all, it is however a straight up qol improvement at the cost of achievable max stats while raising the standard stats.

It makes soloing / small manning a lot more accessible / less of a hassle.

I guess I just dont get it. I'm glad there is a QoL improvement with buffs and charges, but why is the cost a stat nerf? To appease buff classes? Is the cost of not spending money on buffs and charges not enough? How about the advantage of running with 7 other people with resist buffs available (ooo that's another thing we soloers should get right? Since things should be even I should get a say, 15% resist buffs to my magic right?)

Buffs still have a place even with max stats for soloers. We are ever reaching just to be able to be effective against a grouped player. And dont let anyone say "what soloer attacks a grouped player? Idiot". It happens ALL day long. Those fights back and forth between the apk and mpk in emain are full of them. That's the MAIN source of RvR. So ask yourself why arent you buffing soloers over grouped players? Because they are grouped they should be individually stronger? That's horse hockey and creates a seriously OP meta and it's what has always killed the casual scene in every single daoc server including live.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:52 AM by Turano
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:16 PM
What you wrote is exactly the intended change they are looking for. No more juggle charges at the pk, just go out and play instead of wasting time.
How about just getting rid of the 2 minute timer for buffcharges then? Problem solved
Thu 9 May 2019 1:53 AM by cere2
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:47 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:05 AM
Man, can't keep away from the personal insults when you don't have a leg to stand on eh?

IP2? What?

Anger of the gods? What?

Everyone has access to cheap /use charges, end of story.


Are you a moron? Aotg 2 12 dps damage add charge 11.3 dps. IP2 25% heal heal pot plus legion charge for 500~ hp average full buffed hp is what 1500-1750? These are extremely strong abilities on 10-15 minute cooldown and we're proposing making then available every 2 minutes. Having to full buff with charges curbed how often these broken charges were usable and their impact overall. I've beaten people without my spec af up when they did. I won't beat they same person if they can pop a 500hp heal or 11.3dps damage add and I can't. That's the fucking point.

The stat nerf sucks because it's completely unnecessary.

Also great job flexing on an heavy tanked specced to solo. If you lost to a stealther with moose and IP up you should probably uninstall. No one cares.

And why wouldn't you be able to pop your own 500hp heal or 11.3dps damage add? Because you were just in a battle? Or its a 2v1 and you expect to kill them both and mad you can't now? I don't get the logic here.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:53 AM by florin
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:50 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:42 AM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:37 AM
I said this earlier but seems it should be said again.

You didn't win solo vs smallman before this change, you won't after.
You didn't win smallman vs FG before this change, you won't after.

For those that can PA/CD a caster in a group and get the kill and vanish before group kills you, losing 25 quickness or .126 of a second in swing speed will not change the outcome.
The latest posts about killing fg's with solos is hilarious.

You haven’t played a good assassin then

If it doesn’t matter then why change it? Call it when and leave it the same value.

Oh really. Your taking on lvl 50 smallman's ...meaning 3+ visi's and winning with your assassin? LMAO post this video! In 12 years of playing Live never saw someone that could do that vs any 3 man visi that wasn't afk so you must be amazing......
The only one's I hear complaining are Norse SB's. Because they chose a race with high STR and now take the worst hit when they have to re-assign RA's from MOP to aug quick. Or....you can always race respec and deal with training aug Str instead. Nothing said about Elfs/Luri/Saracen/Iconnu etc...how much aug str do they need to come close to norse?
Why not make them all 75 right? How much more do you want to crap on self-buffing classes specs. Yeesh.

No - what was said is i find a target of opportunity with in that small man or fg and take out a player and either die or vanish. Maybe some one else made the claim but not me...on my necro ya, have done 5v1 with xpers
Thu 9 May 2019 1:57 AM by cere2
Numatic wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:51 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:59 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:45 AM
Every post from you reduces my confidence in the long term health of this server. Not getting that this hurts stealther life after admitting a few sentences earlier that it’s a nerf is next level cognitive dissonance.

Why is there any cognitive dissonance?

In one scenario you lose some stats but gain those stats in another, after this change there is no possible way as a solo non buffer to ever see another non buffer solo that's better buffed than you. It's much more likely (almost guaranteed even) that both of you have your charge timers up and that you're hence not running in the scenario where you just charged up some buff and then get an inc of someone who is able to use their heal or dd or whatever charge while you're not able to.

This is neither a straight up nerf under all circumstances nor a buff under all, it is however a straight up qol improvement at the cost of achievable max stats while raising the standard stats.

It makes soloing / small manning a lot more accessible / less of a hassle.

I guess I just dont get it. I'm glad there is a QoL improvement with buffs and charges, but why is the cost a stat nerf? To appease buff classes? Is the cost of not spending money on buffs and charges not enough? How about the advantage of running with 7 other people with resist buffs available (ooo that's another thing we soloers should get right? Since things should be even I should get a say, 15% resist buffs to my magic right?)

Buffs still have a place even with max stats for soloers. We are ever reaching just to be able to be effective against a grouped player. And dont let anyone say "what soloer attacks a grouped player? Idiot". It happens ALL day long. Those fights back and forth between the apk and mpk in emain are full of them. That's the MAIN source of RvR. So ask yourself why arent you buffing soloers over grouped players? Because they are grouped they should be individually stronger? That's horse hockey and creates a seriously OP meta and it's what has always killed the casual scene in every single daoc server including live.

The only class that attacks grouped player is an assassin, and only because he has vanish. Come on man....

Guess I should also add that they are also the only class that has the mass dps opener to do such a thing.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:59 AM by florin
Numatic wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:51 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:59 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:45 AM
Every post from you reduces my confidence in the long term health of this server. Not getting that this hurts stealther life after admitting a few sentences earlier that it’s a nerf is next level cognitive dissonance.

Why is there any cognitive dissonance?

In one scenario you lose some stats but gain those stats in another, after this change there is no possible way as a solo non buffer to ever see another non buffer solo that's better buffed than you. It's much more likely (almost guaranteed even) that both of you have your charge timers up and that you're hence not running in the scenario where you just charged up some buff and then get an inc of someone who is able to use their heal or dd or whatever charge while you're not able to.

This is neither a straight up nerf under all circumstances nor a buff under all, it is however a straight up qol improvement at the cost of achievable max stats while raising the standard stats.

It makes soloing / small manning a lot more accessible / less of a hassle.

I guess I just dont get it. I'm glad there is a QoL improvement with buffs and charges, but why is the cost a stat nerf? To appease buff classes? Is the cost of not spending money on buffs and charges not enough? How about the advantage of running with 7 other people with resist buffs available (ooo that's another thing we soloers should get right? Since things should be even I should get a say, 15% resist buffs to my magic right?)

Buffs still have a place even with max stats for soloers. We are ever reaching just to be able to be effective against a grouped player. And dont let anyone say "what soloer attacks a grouped player? Idiot". It happens ALL day long. Those fights back and forth between the apk and mpk in emain are full of them. That's the MAIN source of RvR. So ask yourself why arent you buffing soloers over grouped players? Because they are grouped they should be individually stronger? That's horse hockey and creates a seriously OP meta and it's what has always killed the casual scene in every single daoc server including live.

This is really the crux of the matter - he thinks he is helping solos.
Thu 9 May 2019 2:08 AM by Mavella
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:53 AM
And why wouldn't you be able to pop your own 500hp heal or 11.3dps damage add? Because you were just in a battle? Or its a 2v1 and you expect to kill them both and mad you can't now? I don't get the logic here.

Maybe i was just in fight and got popped out of stealth a minute later after I've sat and healed. I should have basically 0% chance to win that next fight because I possibly just had to use my charge previously? That's the more convenient alternative to the current system?

The "QOL" is supposed to get us away from having to pop /use items when its just forcing us to carry and use a different set of charges that will play more of an impact than missing a current spec buff or only having the pot version up. Plus we get the fortune of eating an arbitrary stat nerf just because as well.

I'm all for getting the convenience of getting all buffs from a bottle. I'm not OK taking a stat nerf for no reason. I'm also not OK having every fight come down to being required to pop an in combat cooldown to win.
Thu 9 May 2019 2:12 AM by Turano
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:57 AM
The only class that attacks grouped player is an assassin, and only because he has vanish. Come on man....

Guess I should also add that they are also the only class that has the mass dps opener to do such a thing.
this must be the biggest crap i've read from you so far
There are many more classes that are WAAAAAAAAAAAY more effective in killing grouped players than assas.
Sorcerers, Minstrels, even skalds come to mind. Everything that has good damage and CC capabilities, pretty much every caster with mezz is able to kill a group of players
Thu 9 May 2019 2:15 AM by Quathan
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:37 AM
I said this earlier but seems it should be said again.

You didn't win solo vs smallman before this change, you won't after.
You didn't win smallman vs FG before this change, you won't after.

For those that can PA/CD a caster in a group and get the kill and vanish before group kills you, losing 25 quickness or .126 of a second in swing speed will not change the outcome.
The latest posts about killing fg's with solos is hilarious.

I see you play/played alot of Archer classes, kinda scares me that you say losing 25 quickness aint gonna change outcome. It most certainly do imho.
Thu 9 May 2019 2:16 AM by cere2
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:08 AM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:53 AM
And why wouldn't you be able to pop your own 500hp heal or 11.3dps damage add? Because you were just in a battle? Or its a 2v1 and you expect to kill them both and mad you can't now? I don't get the logic here.

Maybe i was just in fight and got popped out of stealth a minute later after I've sat and healed. I should have basically 0% chance to win that next fight because I possibly just had to use my charge previously? That's the more convenient alternative to the current system?

The "QOL" is supposed to get us away from having to pop /use items when its just forcing us to carry and use a different set of charges that will play more of an impact than missing a current spec buff or only having the pot version up. Plus we get the fortune of eating an arbitrary stat nerf just because as well.

I'm all for getting the convenience of getting all buffs from a bottle. I'm not OK taking a stat nerf for no reason. I'm also not OK having every fight come down to being required to pop an in combat cooldown to win.

The fact they raised the buffs is something you should be happy about. Honestly I think classes that have self-buffs should not have their spec lines gutted because you think you deserve free buffs. But that's the way the system is atm, can you tell me what the point of wasting 50 spec points to get less buffs than you had with charges?

If they want to go the route of Live and give access to potions of supremacy..aka all purp buffs fine, but they would first need to fix spec lines that have self buffs and completely redesign them.

It sure is a bit selfish to care so much about losing 18 to some stats while some classes are completely gutted because their spec line is worthless.

Lastly if you get popped after just killing someone, such is life. And for that matter what if the person who popped you just got out of battle and now neither of you can use a charge. I mean if we are going to get into possible scenarios etc....might as well go both ways right?
Thu 9 May 2019 2:18 AM by cere2
Turano wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:12 AM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:57 AM
The only class that attacks grouped player is an assassin, and only because he has vanish. Come on man....

Guess I should also add that they are also the only class that has the mass dps opener to do such a thing.
this must be the biggest crap i've read from you so far
There are many more classes that are WAAAAAAAAAAAY more effective in killing grouped players than assas.
Sorcerers, Minstrels, even skalds come to mind. Everything that has good damage and CC capabilities, pretty much every caster with mezz is able to kill a group of players

What? What game have you been playing the last 12 years?
What solo visi is going to kill a grouped player before they are killed themselve's by the rest of the full group other than an assassin.
Are you for real? Or is the rest of the group AFK?

Obviously you misunderstood or are on some stuff I wish you would share....
Thu 9 May 2019 2:18 AM by florin
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:57 AM
Numatic wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:51 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:59 AM
Why is there any cognitive dissonance?

In one scenario you lose some stats but gain those stats in another, after this change there is no possible way as a solo non buffer to ever see another non buffer solo that's better buffed than you. It's much more likely (almost guaranteed even) that both of you have your charge timers up and that you're hence not running in the scenario where you just charged up some buff and then get an inc of someone who is able to use their heal or dd or whatever charge while you're not able to.

This is neither a straight up nerf under all circumstances nor a buff under all, it is however a straight up qol improvement at the cost of achievable max stats while raising the standard stats.

It makes soloing / small manning a lot more accessible / less of a hassle.

I guess I just dont get it. I'm glad there is a QoL improvement with buffs and charges, but why is the cost a stat nerf? To appease buff classes? Is the cost of not spending money on buffs and charges not enough? How about the advantage of running with 7 other people with resist buffs available (ooo that's another thing we soloers should get right? Since things should be even I should get a say, 15% resist buffs to my magic right?)

Buffs still have a place even with max stats for soloers. We are ever reaching just to be able to be effective against a grouped player. And dont let anyone say "what soloer attacks a grouped player? Idiot". It happens ALL day long. Those fights back and forth between the apk and mpk in emain are full of them. That's the MAIN source of RvR. So ask yourself why arent you buffing soloers over grouped players? Because they are grouped they should be individually stronger? That's horse hockey and creates a seriously OP meta and it's what has always killed the casual scene in every single daoc server including live.

The only class that attacks grouped player is an assassin, and only because he has vanish. Come on man....

Guess I should also add that they are also the only class that has the mass dps opener to do such a thing.

Maybe it’s different when you play but many of the milegate standoffs are between a mix of grouped and ungrouped.
Thu 9 May 2019 2:21 AM by cere2
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:18 AM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:57 AM
Numatic wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:51 AM
I guess I just dont get it. I'm glad there is a QoL improvement with buffs and charges, but why is the cost a stat nerf? To appease buff classes? Is the cost of not spending money on buffs and charges not enough? How about the advantage of running with 7 other people with resist buffs available (ooo that's another thing we soloers should get right? Since things should be even I should get a say, 15% resist buffs to my magic right?)

Buffs still have a place even with max stats for soloers. We are ever reaching just to be able to be effective against a grouped player. And dont let anyone say "what soloer attacks a grouped player? Idiot". It happens ALL day long. Those fights back and forth between the apk and mpk in emain are full of them. That's the MAIN source of RvR. So ask yourself why arent you buffing soloers over grouped players? Because they are grouped they should be individually stronger? That's horse hockey and creates a seriously OP meta and it's what has always killed the casual scene in every single daoc server including live.

The only class that attacks grouped player is an assassin, and only because he has vanish. Come on man....

Guess I should also add that they are also the only class that has the mass dps opener to do such a thing.

Maybe it’s different when you play but many of the milegate standoffs are between a mix of grouped and ungrouped.

And if these solos had 18 more stats they would win more? That's the point I am making. There are times when a FG gets attacked by multiple solo's.....but losing 18 stats or even 25 quick which is approximately .125 seconds/swing on someone who had 250 now has 225 quick....is not going to make the difference typically.
Thu 9 May 2019 2:31 AM by florin
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:21 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:18 AM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:57 AM
The only class that attacks grouped player is an assassin, and only because he has vanish. Come on man....

Guess I should also add that they are also the only class that has the mass dps opener to do such a thing.

Maybe it’s different when you play but many of the milegate standoffs are between a mix of grouped and ungrouped.

And if these solos had 18 more stats they would win more? That's the point I am making. There are times when a FG gets attacked by multiple solo's.....but losing 18 stats or even 25 quick which is approximately .125 seconds/swing on someone who had 250 now has 225 quick....is not going to make the difference typically.

Again if it doesn’t make a difference why nerf it. But seriously do you even play? Have you not seen what 30 solo albs can do to a fg? They are fighting for 20 rps a kill. Why make it harder?
Thu 9 May 2019 3:34 AM by Pirhana7
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 10:21 PM
Estat wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 10:16 PM
Kappu wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 9:32 PM
Juggling timers aren't micromanagement it's someone doing it and enjoying that aspect of the game or they wouldn't do it. If you don't enjoy it don't do it.
I dont enjoy suiciding for xp, yet i do it all the time. Not having fun while doing it, but im doing it. I guess im not alone.

I dont enjoy juggling cooldowns and farming money to pay for my cooldowns. I do enjoy winning though.

If you tell me "not having fun, dont do it" you are really telling me "not having fun, quit playing".

exactly. with these changes the devs are saying "solos/smallman, accept being 2nd class citizens on our 8man/zerg server. keep playing so we can farm you or stfu and gtfo"

Not sure why you think this hurts the solo / small man..... 8mans will run over you regardless of the buff changes before or after. This change brings convienance to everyone and solo vs solo, and small man vs small man will be more balanced now vs each other. Self buffs will actually be a little more important now solo and in small man. Nothing changes in the stealth wars..... personally I would have loved to see potions and charges completely removed. but I am happy with this.
Thu 9 May 2019 3:52 AM by Emeryc
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:40 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:32 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:28 AM
Just cause I solo doesn’t meant I don’t attack grouped players. I kill casters, healers and stupid heros with no common sense all the time

Lol what? Show me you living through one of those fights, where you were actually solo the there's a chance that it TRULY was your +17 stats that made a difference (i.e. a vid of you 1v3 or 1v4 with a buff class - anything other than 1v3 or 1v4 doesn't count, and grp w no buff classes doesn't count).

Give me a single reason to believe you are applying any common sense to what you're thinking

You’re seriously either a troll or low iq. I’ve killed plenty and either not survived (but got the kill) or survived barely and vanished. In keeps, open fields, medding, 1 shot casters as fg runs by. You think these stats don’t matter? It all matters - 18/str dex feeds into our dps, dex qui our evades and since we we got fucked over on dodger. This is a min maxed setup not some slambot that hangs out at ligen.
And here we have the problem. The fact that a solo can kill a member of a FG and survive is simply stupid and shows extremely poor design.
Thu 9 May 2019 3:53 AM by Pbuck
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:10 PM
You missed an important part of the main post. Spec AF charges will be set to the same value as the combined forces potion, thereby effectively removing them.

The new changes will promote 1v1 more than anything since it's simple to just pop your combined forces and start your run. currently you have to wait at the pk for 2-8 minutes depending on how tryhard you want to be and how many charges you want. then when you go out you get a nice fight or you get zerged down by greater numbers and have to repeat the process. With new changes the wait time after dying will be way less so it will promote more people being out actually fighting instead of sitting at the Pk waiting for charge timers. If you factor in that people wont need to pve farm to rvr since potions are a lot cheaper than charges there will be even more active people.

As someone who has rvred almost exclusively solo from rr8 to rr11+, I want to comment on this. I have never waited at the pk 2-8 minutes after a death, instead I pop a red s/c charge, forces+ regeneration charge, and loop around the front of pk if camped, or move directly to milegate if not. I would consider myself tryhard and wouldn't ever consider staying at pk even 2 minutes.So no, you don't have to wait 2-8 minutes at the pk, except if you think its hopeless, but then you can simply change zone.
Also people, contrary to what is being said here, never required alot of time to farm charges( the ones who used them), so it won't make much difference in the activity.

As for the overall statement that it will promote 1v1, I feel it will have the opposite effect. Soloers get added /zerged on a constant basis,have to play against hib amnesia,hill divers, camped milegates( enemy stealthers to unstealth+ groups looping/camping in the area),also play against pro-adders( small mans with speed ,that loop around the area constantly until stealther gets an inc with the sole purpose to add). Now they will also be more squishy and kill slower, getting added more since they will need more time for their kills. So some stealthers will decide instead to stop playing the solo game ,and either quit or group more.

Overall a bad change for serious solo play.
Thu 9 May 2019 3:59 AM by Pbuck
Svekt wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 4:04 PM
Do you think the stealther population is: a) more likely to solo now or b) more likely to group with other stealthers now?
Given that most stealthers try to build to maximum swing speed through a combination of RAs, tweaked template, and CHARGE items given the very nature of their fights. A stealther relies on their ability to drop a target as quickly as possible so that it can re stealth freely or via vanish before he/she is discovered.

We can assume that statistically there are more players that carry a combo forces buff than players that carry a combo buffs potion + spec AF charge in their bag. You have now basically guaranteed that more players will be actively running a spec AF charge, even if it is lower value than the charge one. You can thereby deduce that players will take longer to drop due to the extra absorption of damage from their easily accessed spec AF buff in a 1v1. Also, we can assume that immediately stealthers swing speed will be affected and this will also contribute to a longer 1v1 fight. You have just extended the length of a great percentage of 1v1 fights just in the assassin and stealther category.

You have to think about the repercussions of these changes. Solo play continually seems to be dying for numerous reasons, not just patches and changes. This can be attributed also in part to what certain groups of players chose to do with their time making it harder for the solos to enjoy their play style. But on the developer end, this play style seems to be largely put to the side and forgotten about.
Charges were available at 1.65. Have you made some items easier to get via feather farming etc. …? Yes. So why now remove them on a server that’s based ,now loosely, around said patch?

Bottom line, people still have to go complete their epic for that free AF charge. Frankly a lot of them were not smart enough to use it and simply salvaged it for bars to tinker. Other players farmed for charges and coin to purchase charges.

Leaving the solo play style out of this, you’re messing with people’s time. Something they value and cannot get back. You are also removing a form of income. How many people here have leveled a character that they park at a spot just to farm when it’s open? They turn around and support their play style from farming these drops and selling them.

The trickle effect goes further but I’m sure most people are tired of reading at this point. Groups still need buffs when the buffer drops, and charges for your primary stats are often deployed after a rez or upon the buffer dropping via the use of charges.

I don’t even play a stealther on this patch. I honestly despise being perfed or plucked with arrows but they have their purpose in this game and here I am defending them and other players that are negatively affected by even the slight idea of this patch.

Quoting this post because it nails the issue and summarizes my thoughts perfectly.
Thu 9 May 2019 4:27 AM by Pbuck
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 11:35 PM
Probably pretty pointless to answer you but whatever.

You are currently charging, why? Because it's the best possible stats you can achieve and many of the non buffer enemies you'll encounter will likely have the same stats. After this change you don't charge and neither do your non buffer enemies because by using the potion you already have the best possible stats you can achieve.

Does it make you slightly weaker against people with group buffs than you are now once you have all charges up? Yes. Does it make you stronger if you don't stick around for 4 - 6 minutes at the tk before starting a run or letting a buff fade to have a free charge timer? Yes.

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that this is a change that makes life harder for solos.

The best targets for stealthers,and the most numerous/common, are lower realm rank players that don't use charges( and use only stat force barrel).Those players drop relatively fast and therefore, there is a lower chance for enemy adds to ruin the fight.( and there are a lot of them around). If new changes go through, these players will now have more stats and spec af, while original stealther will have less stats than before, adding significantly to the kill time. Even a few added seconds can be the difference between killing and dying to adds. As a personal note, which other soloers can confirm, there are only a few more frustrating things than using 10-15 minute RAs like IP, and still dying to adds while enemy target hovers around 1-5% health, something that will become more common with those changes.

In a perfect world, your changes shouldn't really matter to solo play, since everyone gets nerfed the same way, but in reality, its a race against the clock, kill fast enough or fail and die to adds.

As a final comment, I never really cared to much about enemy pk campers, you can loop around them in most cases and don't really need to wait 4-6-8 minutes for full charges.

Dec 11L1 mincer, 4200+ solo kills
Thu 9 May 2019 4:58 AM by Mavella
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:16 AM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:08 AM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:53 AM
And why wouldn't you be able to pop your own 500hp heal or 11.3dps damage add? Because you were just in a battle? Or its a 2v1 and you expect to kill them both and mad you can't now? I don't get the logic here.

Maybe i was just in fight and got popped out of stealth a minute later after I've sat and healed. I should have basically 0% chance to win that next fight because I possibly just had to use my charge previously? That's the more convenient alternative to the current system?

The "QOL" is supposed to get us away from having to pop /use items when its just forcing us to carry and use a different set of charges that will play more of an impact than missing a current spec buff or only having the pot version up. Plus we get the fortune of eating an arbitrary stat nerf just because as well.

I'm all for getting the convenience of getting all buffs from a bottle. I'm not OK taking a stat nerf for no reason. I'm also not OK having every fight come down to being required to pop an in combat cooldown to win.

The fact they raised the buffs is something you should be happy about. Honestly I think classes that have self-buffs should not have their spec lines gutted because you think you deserve free buffs. But that's the way the system is atm, can you tell me what the point of wasting 50 spec points to get less buffs than you had with charges?

If they want to go the route of Live and give access to potions of supremacy..aka all purp buffs fine, but they would first need to fix spec lines that have self buffs and completely redesign them.

It sure is a bit selfish to care so much about losing 18 to some stats while some classes are completely gutted because their spec line is worthless.

Lastly if you get popped after just killing someone, such is life. And for that matter what if the person who popped you just got out of battle and now neither of you can use a charge. I mean if we are going to get into possible scenarios etc....might as well go both ways right?

Dude are you ever going to get off your cross with these self buffing classes? Every self buffing classes can spec for greater martial prowess(higher weapon, parry, CD etc) and still retain most of the utility of their buffing line. They don't NEED to spec those lines astronomically high to successful. Stop acting like they can't benefit just as much from the current system as everyone else. The ones that have it the worst are Hunters but they should be allowed to spec parry anyway.

If we're going to switch to a meta of /use items with overpowered abilities can i get purge and vanish on /use items then i can just spec high aug stats and get back to were i am currently? Thanks.
Thu 9 May 2019 4:59 AM by Citian
The only additional change to satisfy the remaining crybabies: every 30 minutes release a horde of epic wearing casters that don't have their shields/ABS cast that run/walk in a straight line and award triple arpeez and maybe also pop-up a cool mortal kombat dragon and tons of fatality messages server-wide.
Thu 9 May 2019 5:32 AM by jelzinga_EU
Pbuck wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 3:53 AM
As someone who has rvred almost exclusively solo from rr8 to rr11+, I want to comment on this. I have never waited at the pk 2-8 minutes after a death, instead I pop a red s/c charge, forces+ regeneration charge, and loop around the front of pk if camped, or move directly to milegate if not. I would consider myself tryhard and wouldn't ever consider staying at pk even 2 minutes.So no, you don't have to wait 2-8 minutes at the pk, except if you think its hopeless, but then you can simply change zone.
Also people, contrary to what is being said here, never required alot of time to farm charges( the ones who used them), so it won't make much difference in the activity.

As for the overall statement that it will promote 1v1, I feel it will have the opposite effect. Soloers get added /zerged on a constant basis,have to play against hib amnesia,hill divers, camped milegates( enemy stealthers to unstealth+ groups looping/camping in the area),also play against pro-adders( small mans with speed ,that loop around the area constantly until stealther gets an inc with the sole purpose to add). Now they will also be more squishy and kill slower, getting added more since they will need more time for their kills. So some stealthers will decide instead to stop playing the solo game ,and either quit or group more.

Overall a bad change for serious solo play.

While none of us will know what the exact impact this will have on solo-play - and your guess is as good as mine - I personally think almost nothing will change in the solo-experience. What will change is the fact you can play with 2 pots and be competitive for the majority of the fights.

While you seem to focus on the fact you will be more squishy and kill slower : The enemy is affected by these changes too. He will be more squishy too (and kill slower too). It might just be that TTK barely changes. For a minstrel : Shout-damage stays the same value, so it will do more damage relatively. Same for charmed-pets.

"Serious solo play" is hard to define, but the majority of players just wants to have some fun for maybe ~10 hours / week, perhaps even less. For the large majority of people the changes are mostly positive. Less need for farming (both items and gold) - less time wasted in PvE. While I appreciate the fact that some do have a lot more time on their hands to play this game, you have to remember that those are part of a very small set of players who have the time and dedication to do that.
Thu 9 May 2019 6:17 AM by Tamy
Pbuck wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 4:27 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 11:35 PM
Probably pretty pointless to answer you but whatever.

You are currently charging, why? Because it's the best possible stats you can achieve and many of the non buffer enemies you'll encounter will likely have the same stats. After this change you don't charge and neither do your non buffer enemies because by using the potion you already have the best possible stats you can achieve.

Does it make you slightly weaker against people with group buffs than you are now once you have all charges up? Yes. Does it make you stronger if you don't stick around for 4 - 6 minutes at the tk before starting a run or letting a buff fade to have a free charge timer? Yes.

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that this is a change that makes life harder for solos.

The best targets for stealthers,and the most numerous/common, are lower realm rank players that don't use charges( and use only stat force barrel).Those players drop relatively fast and therefore, there is a lower chance for enemy adds to ruin the fight.( and there are a lot of them around). If new changes go through, these players will now have more stats and spec af, while original stealther will have less stats than before, adding significantly to the kill time. Even a few added seconds can be the difference between killing and dying to adds. As a personal note, which other soloers can confirm, there are only a few more frustrating things than using 10-15 minute RAs like IP, and still dying to adds while enemy target hovers around 1-5% health, something that will become more common with those changes.

In a perfect world, your changes shouldn't really matter to solo play, since everyone gets nerfed the same way, but in reality, its a race against the clock, kill fast enough or fail and die to adds.

As a final comment, I never really cared to much about enemy pk campers, you can loop around them in most cases and don't really need to wait 4-6-8 minutes for full charges.

Dec 11L1 mincer, 4200+ solo kills

Agreeing to 100%

It's a completely false assumption by the devs that every soloer or grouped stealther is using charges all the time.

Also I don't get the argument about waiting at the PK to pop charges...like Dec said, use one at the PK and take a fairly safe route to the milegate (around there you can take your second one if needed).
Thu 9 May 2019 7:27 AM by chois
Agree too
Thu 9 May 2019 8:36 AM by Saroi
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 4:58 AM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:16 AM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:08 AM
Maybe i was just in fight and got popped out of stealth a minute later after I've sat and healed. I should have basically 0% chance to win that next fight because I possibly just had to use my charge previously? That's the more convenient alternative to the current system?

The "QOL" is supposed to get us away from having to pop /use items when its just forcing us to carry and use a different set of charges that will play more of an impact than missing a current spec buff or only having the pot version up. Plus we get the fortune of eating an arbitrary stat nerf just because as well.

I'm all for getting the convenience of getting all buffs from a bottle. I'm not OK taking a stat nerf for no reason. I'm also not OK having every fight come down to being required to pop an in combat cooldown to win.

The fact they raised the buffs is something you should be happy about. Honestly I think classes that have self-buffs should not have their spec lines gutted because you think you deserve free buffs. But that's the way the system is atm, can you tell me what the point of wasting 50 spec points to get less buffs than you had with charges?

If they want to go the route of Live and give access to potions of supremacy..aka all purp buffs fine, but they would first need to fix spec lines that have self buffs and completely redesign them.

It sure is a bit selfish to care so much about losing 18 to some stats while some classes are completely gutted because their spec line is worthless.

Lastly if you get popped after just killing someone, such is life. And for that matter what if the person who popped you just got out of battle and now neither of you can use a charge. I mean if we are going to get into possible scenarios etc....might as well go both ways right?

Dude are you ever going to get off your cross with these self buffing classes? Every self buffing classes can spec for greater martial prowess(higher weapon, parry, CD etc) and still retain most of the utility of their buffing line. They don't NEED to spec those lines astronomically high to successful. Stop acting like they can't benefit just as much from the current system as everyone else. The ones that have it the worst are Hunters but they should be allowed to spec parry anyway.

If we're going to switch to a meta of /use items with overpowered abilities can i get purge and vanish on /use items then i can just spec high aug stats and get back to were i am currently? Thanks.

And which class would that be?

Classes like Thane, Friar, Champion, Rangers all spec into the "buff" line anyway because they get other stuff. Basically every thane has 50 Stormcalling, champions have 50 Valor, Melee Rangers go 50 Path for the str buff and damage add.
They NEED it for their casts or other stuff and they have the Str/Con or Dex/Quick Selfbuff in that line too which becomes pretty useless and not an advantage anymore.

So no, most selfbuff classes do not have the chance to spec something else instead or benefit in the same amount like non buffing classes.
Thu 9 May 2019 9:00 AM by Tillbeast
Out of interest a question for all the players who play a non self buffing class.

Would you prepared to allow self buffing classes to have an ability that imitates a non self buffing class ability?

For example.

A hunter or ranger who both self buff get given a stun that imitates a scouts slam.
A thane or champion who both get self buffs gets a pbaoe effect imitating a reavers soul rending ability.
etc

If you are ok with this then your argument for combined forces being ok for non self buffing classes is fine.

Basically giving another class another class's advantage is wrong. Removing self stat buff potions levels the playing field and makes classes like the shaman, druid etc more valuable. Solo characters don't need self buffs unless your class has them as part of their class spec lines and group characters don't need self buffs as they have a class designed for buffing others in group. Potions like endurance, heal and power regen are always needed but giving access to non self buffing solo classes stat increase buff potions is in my opinion wrong. Although we don't have buff bots it will soon become like having buff bots where the players with time and resources to run 100% with potion buffs will have a huge advantage over those who do not. You may as well let players have a second account to bot.
Thu 9 May 2019 10:00 AM by SlowMo
I like the changes - it puts 1v1 and Smallman more in line, while still rewarding self buff / buff classes.

I guess we will be seeing a lot of DA / heal charge in combat now, which concerns me a little. I have the feelin win or loose will come down to who has it up.
And maybe we will see another tweak of this - but for now I am all for giving it a try.

Devs should however consider handing out:
feahter refunds
RA / race respec
Thu 9 May 2019 10:11 AM by Sepplord
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 9:00 AM
Out of interest a question for all the players who play a non self buffing class.

Would you prepared to allow self buffing classes to have an ability that imitates a non self buffing class ability?

For example.

A hunter or ranger who both self buff get given a stun that imitates a scouts slam.
A thane or champion who both get self buffs gets a pbaoe effect imitating a reavers soul rending ability.
etc

If you are ok with this then your argument for combined forces being ok for non self buffing classes is fine.

Basically giving another class another class's advantage is wrong. Removing self stat buff potions levels the playing field and makes classes like the shaman, druid etc more valuable. Solo characters don't need self buffs unless your class has them as part of their class spec lines and group characters don't need self buffs as they have a class designed for buffing others in group. Potions like endurance, heal and power regen are always needed but giving access to non self buffing solo classes stat increase buff potions is in my opinion wrong. Although we don't have buff bots it will soon become like having buff bots where the players with time and resources to run 100% with potion buffs will have a huge advantage over those who do not. You may as well let players have a second account to bot.

That makes sense on paper, but not after the reality has been that classbalance has been done for years with buffbos in mind, and several adjustments on this server to subpar classes, to make them worth. Don't get me wrong, i believe the changes will work out well overall...but the argument that the initial design of selfbuffs was to be balanced against unbuffed classes would require severe nerfs to all the selfbuff classes (and subsequently make them very useless in groupsituations).
Selfbuffers are not balanced VS unbuffed non-buffers. They shit all over them.
Thu 9 May 2019 10:53 AM by Tillbeast
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 10:11 AM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 9:00 AM
Out of interest a question for all the players who play a non self buffing class.

Would you prepared to allow self buffing classes to have an ability that imitates a non self buffing class ability?

For example.

A hunter or ranger who both self buff get given a stun that imitates a scouts slam.
A thane or champion who both get self buffs gets a pbaoe effect imitating a reavers soul rending ability.
etc

If you are ok with this then your argument for combined forces being ok for non self buffing classes is fine.

Basically giving another class another class's advantage is wrong. Removing self stat buff potions levels the playing field and makes classes like the shaman, druid etc more valuable. Solo characters don't need self buffs unless your class has them as part of their class spec lines and group characters don't need self buffs as they have a class designed for buffing others in group. Potions like endurance, heal and power regen are always needed but giving access to non self buffing solo classes stat increase buff potions is in my opinion wrong. Although we don't have buff bots it will soon become like having buff bots where the players with time and resources to run 100% with potion buffs will have a huge advantage over those who do not. You may as well let players have a second account to bot.

That makes sense on paper, but not after the reality has been that classbalance has been done for years with buffbos in mind, and several adjustments on this server to subpar classes, to make them worth. Don't get me wrong, i believe the changes will work out well overall...but the argument that the initial design of selfbuffs was to be balanced against unbuffed classes would require severe nerfs to all the selfbuff classes (and subsequently make them very useless in groupsituations).
Selfbuffers are not balanced VS unbuffed non-buffers. They shit all over them.

Self buffers don't shit over non buffing classes. A hunter is still a viable target for an unbuffed assassin. Just because the hunter has a dex quick buff and af does not mean they are stronger than the assassin. Some classes are not strong soloing for example you don't see many solo heros's (salute to the hard core ones that do) but you will see thanes and champions out solo more often. Giving a hero access to a str/con buff whilst not in a group is unfair as 10 times out of 10 the hero will get a group spot before a thane or a champion. They should just get rid of self buffs from classes like hunters, rangers, thanes etc and replace them with better abilities or allow second accounts so we can bot.
Thu 9 May 2019 10:58 AM by stetty
I feel like buffs have always been an important part of the game, especially the end game Min-maxing. With the exception of the primary healing classes having buffs, characters that get buffs in their spec lines has always been a thing but even then they might not have always been the best value compared to how you want to spec or just value wise anyway.

People used to run buff bots, then buffing NPCs were put in the game (iirc they weren’t as strong as buffbots), and now it seems like the next version (here) is to give buffs but a restricted version. Buffs are important for every class regardless if they spec for them or not.

I think BASE AF should be in the buff potion. Not spec, spec should come from and item or something else. Managing charges can be tough but the expense is tougher however they are still available of people choose to run them.

The debate rages on I suppose. But I’d like to believe that everyone in the end game PvP or PvE want to be as powerful as they can within the realm of buffs we have all come to grow with in the game. Any significant change like this would have to result in respecs being given out as realm abilities (aug qui, MoA) would have to be adjusted to account for stats that were once there and are not now. As a downstream indirect impact, maybe it opens up other racial options for some classes.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:05 PM by Numatic
These changes would be perfectly fine if there was a 1v1, 2v2 arena etc. But theres not, and any kind of nerf to solos, duos etc will push that player base farther away. Will it make things more even in 1v1? Perhaps. But the only 1v1 you're getting on this server is with stealthers. The idea behind 1v1 doesnt work because everything DAoC has done was to make sure 8mans stayed the norm. And this change is obvious that it's going to stay in line with that.

You should be asking what can you do to make the solo/duo/smallman scene competitive in RvR. While its perfectly logical an 8man shouldnt lose to an equal number of soloers, they should not have such an easy time against 2x the numbers of soloers. As it is now, theres no way to take an 8man down even with double the numbers. Why is this still a thing? Why do people reply on here saying an 8man SHOULD be able to roll 15-20 soloers in a grouped fight? Its ridiculous.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:05 PM by chryso
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:38 PM
chryso wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:36 PM
This nerf of stat buffs does not go far enough. Self buffing classes are directly nerfed by stat pots and charges. These classes now have spec lines that are largely useless because other classes can get what they had to spec for with just a few gold.

Stop being ridiculous.

Not for a single day in the history of DAoC has anyone good at RvR relied on self stat buffs. A bunch of super casuals died a lot, and asked for them to be buffed a lot. They have NEVER been good. Stop trying to remake the game. That's what EA did.

It's NEVER been a thing. Those buffs are only there to make it cheaper to grind loot/xp. Not for RvR.

Those classes are balanced based on their buffs. Since the self buff does not stack with pots then the self buffers are at a disadvantage.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:15 PM by Yokahu
Tamy wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 6:17 AM
Pbuck wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 4:27 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 11:35 PM
Probably pretty pointless to answer you but whatever.

You are currently charging, why? Because it's the best possible stats you can achieve and many of the non buffer enemies you'll encounter will likely have the same stats. After this change you don't charge and neither do your non buffer enemies because by using the potion you already have the best possible stats you can achieve.

Does it make you slightly weaker against people with group buffs than you are now once you have all charges up? Yes. Does it make you stronger if you don't stick around for 4 - 6 minutes at the tk before starting a run or letting a buff fade to have a free charge timer? Yes.

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that this is a change that makes life harder for solos.

The best targets for stealthers,and the most numerous/common, are lower realm rank players that don't use charges( and use only stat force barrel).Those players drop relatively fast and therefore, there is a lower chance for enemy adds to ruin the fight.( and there are a lot of them around). If new changes go through, these players will now have more stats and spec af, while original stealther will have less stats than before, adding significantly to the kill time. Even a few added seconds can be the difference between killing and dying to adds. As a personal note, which other soloers can confirm, there are only a few more frustrating things than using 10-15 minute RAs like IP, and still dying to adds while enemy target hovers around 1-5% health, something that will become more common with those changes.

In a perfect world, your changes shouldn't really matter to solo play, since everyone gets nerfed the same way, but in reality, its a race against the clock, kill fast enough or fail and die to adds.

As a final comment, I never really cared to much about enemy pk campers, you can loop around them in most cases and don't really need to wait 4-6-8 minutes for full charges.

Dec 11L1 mincer, 4200+ solo kills

Agreeing to 100%

It's a completely false assumption by the devs that every soloer or grouped stealther is using charges all the time.

Also I don't get the argument about waiting at the PK to pop charges...like Dec said, use one at the PK and take a fairly safe route to the milegate (around there you can take your second one if needed).

As I mentioned before:
It all comes down to who has the most charges up. IMO players that RvR with full charges don’t want this change to go live because they don’t want to lose their advantage against casuals that only run one or no charges at all.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:40 PM by dstrmberg
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:15 PM
As I mentioned before:
It all comes down to who has the most charges up. IMO players that RvR with full charges don’t want this change to go live because they don’t want to lose their advantage against casuals that only run one or no charges at all.

So.. you are saying that the "pros" are not really pros but crybabies that should harden the frick up? :-)
Thu 9 May 2019 12:59 PM by Tamy
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:15 PM
Tamy wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 6:17 AM
Pbuck wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 4:27 AM
The best targets for stealthers,and the most numerous/common, are lower realm rank players that don't use charges( and use only stat force barrel).Those players drop relatively fast and therefore, there is a lower chance for enemy adds to ruin the fight.( and there are a lot of them around). If new changes go through, these players will now have more stats and spec af, while original stealther will have less stats than before, adding significantly to the kill time. Even a few added seconds can be the difference between killing and dying to adds. As a personal note, which other soloers can confirm, there are only a few more frustrating things than using 10-15 minute RAs like IP, and still dying to adds while enemy target hovers around 1-5% health, something that will become more common with those changes.

In a perfect world, your changes shouldn't really matter to solo play, since everyone gets nerfed the same way, but in reality, its a race against the clock, kill fast enough or fail and die to adds.

As a final comment, I never really cared to much about enemy pk campers, you can loop around them in most cases and don't really need to wait 4-6-8 minutes for full charges.

Dec 11L1 mincer, 4200+ solo kills

Agreeing to 100%

It's a completely false assumption by the devs that every soloer or grouped stealther is using charges all the time.

Also I don't get the argument about waiting at the PK to pop charges...like Dec said, use one at the PK and take a fairly safe route to the milegate (around there you can take your second one if needed).

As I mentioned before:
It all comes down to who has the most charges up. IMO players that RvR with full charges don’t want this change to go live because they don’t want to lose their advantage against casuals that only run one or no charges at all.

Sorry but that is BS...yes charges give you an advantage (I for my part run two, af and d/q) but they don't determine a fight before it even begins. Luck, skill and fight opening are way more important. For example I don't see myself in a big disadvantage vs. stealther who are running 3 charges constantly. And the crux of the matter is that these charges are accessible for everyone and everyone can decide by himself what do run, what not and how much effort he wants to put in it.
Thu 9 May 2019 12:59 PM by jwalker
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:15 PM
Tamy wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 6:17 AM
Pbuck wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 4:27 AM
The best targets for stealthers,and the most numerous/common, are lower realm rank players that don't use charges( and use only stat force barrel).Those players drop relatively fast and therefore, there is a lower chance for enemy adds to ruin the fight.( and there are a lot of them around). If new changes go through, these players will now have more stats and spec af, while original stealther will have less stats than before, adding significantly to the kill time. Even a few added seconds can be the difference between killing and dying to adds. As a personal note, which other soloers can confirm, there are only a few more frustrating things than using 10-15 minute RAs like IP, and still dying to adds while enemy target hovers around 1-5% health, something that will become more common with those changes.

In a perfect world, your changes shouldn't really matter to solo play, since everyone gets nerfed the same way, but in reality, its a race against the clock, kill fast enough or fail and die to adds.

As a final comment, I never really cared to much about enemy pk campers, you can loop around them in most cases and don't really need to wait 4-6-8 minutes for full charges.

Dec 11L1 mincer, 4200+ solo kills

Agreeing to 100%

It's a completely false assumption by the devs that every soloer or grouped stealther is using charges all the time.

Also I don't get the argument about waiting at the PK to pop charges...like Dec said, use one at the PK and take a fairly safe route to the milegate (around there you can take your second one if needed).

As I mentioned before:
It all comes down to who has the most charges up. IMO players that RvR with full charges don’t want this change to go live because they don’t want to lose their advantage against casuals that only run one or no charges at all.
Id be perfectly fine if all buffs are on combined forces but stay 101 total stats. Im sure a lot of the "charges" user think the same.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:00 PM by PingGuy
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 5:32 AM
While none of us will know what the exact impact this will have on solo-play - and your guess is as good as mine - I personally think almost nothing will change in the solo-experience. What will change is the fact you can play with 2 pots and be competitive for the majority of the fights.

While you seem to focus on the fact you will be more squishy and kill slower : The enemy is affected by these changes too. He will be more squishy too (and kill slower too). It might just be that TTK barely changes. For a minstrel : Shout-damage stays the same value, so it will do more damage relatively. Same for charmed-pets.

"Serious solo play" is hard to define, but the majority of players just wants to have some fun for maybe ~10 hours / week, perhaps even less. For the large majority of people the changes are mostly positive. Less need for farming (both items and gold) - less time wasted in PvE. While I appreciate the fact that some do have a lot more time on their hands to play this game, you have to remember that those are part of a very small set of players who have the time and dedication to do that.

This.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:12 PM by Sepplord
chryso wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:05 PM
Those classes are balanced based on their buffs. Since the self buff does not stack with pots then the self buffers are at a disadvantage.

They are not though. (Archers are not a good example since they are in a bad spot either way here) But overall balancing always had buffed groups in mind, Buffbots were the norm and potion/charge-buffs aren't a freeshard invention.
Classes like friar/thane have recieved huge buffs to make them stronger and they would be completely over the top if everyone else had to run unbuffed, and also classes like champs have been made stronger/more viable here than they were back in SI.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:30 PM by tommccartney
Again you haven’t listened to your player base.

Buff system is fine the way it is - players never discuss/complain about it so why change ...

At this point, making fundamental changes to the server won’t gain Phoenix any players, but it can certainly lose player population, remember that.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:40 PM by kedelin
I like the changes... can't wait for it to go live.. I don't have to juggle timers when I'm solo or use charges in 8v8 cause my shaman can't get specs for everybody... I red through about 6 pages of this thread and realized it is the same 20 soloers crying..... the same ones crying about how cost of charging was too much and now it got fixed they have to find something else to whine about...
Thu 9 May 2019 1:54 PM by tweedledumb99
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:47 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:05 AM
Man, can't keep away from the personal insults when you don't have a leg to stand on eh?

IP2? What?

Anger of the gods? What?

Everyone has access to cheap /use charges, end of story.


Are you a moron? Aotg 2 12 dps damage add charge 11.3 dps. IP2 25% heal heal pot plus legion charge for 500~ hp average full buffed hp is what 1500-1750? These are extremely strong abilities on 10-15 minute cooldown and we're proposing making then available every 2 minutes. Having to full buff with charges curbed how often these broken charges were usable and their impact overall. I've beaten people without my spec af up when they did. I won't beat they same person if they can pop a 500hp heal or 11.3dps damage add and I can't. That's the fucking point.

The stat nerf sucks because it's completely unnecessary.

Also great job flexing on an heavy tanked specced to solo. If you lost to a stealther with moose and IP up you should probably uninstall. No one cares.

Who's proposing ip2 on a 2minute timer? Heal pot alrdy available every 1 minute. Legion heal charge also nerfed if diseased, so not like IP.

Everyone will have these available to them so why is it a problem.

[[This section @Mavella and Florin]] Also, what stealther fight are you talking about? Yes I'm saying come fight me cause florin is acting like an entitled whiny senseless jackass and I want to fight him in game. Edit: @Florin Ill even not use IP or Moose, cause mavella says theyre unfair. Ill add that to slam that you dont want me using. Itd be unfair for me to use block reactionaries too, clearly, would just be flexing on a tank specd for solo. Also no engage, clearly way too OP. No strcon debuff because thats just a symptom of the "catastrophic destruction of daoc" being proposed with this patch! And scale armor w 27% absorb, holy shit talk about OP! Too much tank flexing, better take that chest armour off. Come find me, Florin, w my no weapons, no shield, no chest armor, no moose, no IP, no celtic spear or lw, no debuff charges, and with your vanish up and we'll have ourselves a fair fight like Mavella wants.]]

How are you so badly missing the point and just not understanding things?

So many people just complain about any change to the game, seriously, it's not my or anyone elses responsibility to give you the attention you're craving, stop whining ffs.
Thu 9 May 2019 2:03 PM by jwalker
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:12 PM
chryso wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:05 PM
Those classes are balanced based on their buffs. Since the self buff does not stack with pots then the self buffers are at a disadvantage.

They are not though. (Archers are not a good example since they are in a bad spot either way here) But overall balancing always had buffed groups in mind, Buffbots were the norm and potion/charge-buffs aren't a freeshard invention.
Classes like friar/thane have recieved huge buffs to make them stronger and they would be completely over the top if everyone else had to run unbuffed, and also classes like champs have been made stronger/more viable here than they were back in SI.

This is true and i want to add to this

Melee friars would need to be "rechanged" to how they originally were and melee friars would be even less an option in group play compared to now

Ranger and hunters have trouble mostly because of the custom changes here (global changed that nerfed them from the start) but not because their selfbuffs are bad.
Nerfs? Loss of dodger, avoid pain, mos for 700+ stealth detection, physical defense, unfair detection range

Id go with 101 total with combined forces and change selfbuffs to just add +5 / colour (grey=5, green=10, blue=15 ...) on top! Easy and problem solved
Thu 9 May 2019 2:09 PM by tweedledumb99
@Mavella what classes are your mains?
Thu 9 May 2019 2:26 PM by Mavella
Saroi wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 8:36 AM
And which class would that be?

Classes like Thane, Friar, Champion, Rangers all spec into the "buff" line anyway because they get other stuff. Basically every thane has 50 Stormcalling, champions have 50 Valor, Melee Rangers go 50 Path for the str buff and damage add.
They NEED it for their casts or other stuff and they have the Str/Con or Dex/Quick Selfbuff in that line too which becomes pretty useless and not an advantage anymore.

So no, most selfbuff classes do not have the chance to spec something else instead or benefit in the same amount like non buffing classes.

Dude rangers have access to CD making them the top of the archer foodchain in melee by a WIDE margin. At rr5 you can wryd spec pick up 41 CD use those styles and still have access to the 150 speed boost and a permanent 3dps damage add. All while keeping 35 archery which is the supposed ceiling on this server.

Swinging that offhand for 70+ damage 30%+ more (and benefitting from the haste effect) is going to win you more fights than 6 more dps on a damage add.

Rangers also have the option to go pure melee keep high CD and pathfinding for the free Aug str7 and 9dps damage add making them melee monsters. I know one in particular seems to get off on making sins Vanish. Ask him about It.

Let's see how this proposed change is going to impact self buffers.

Thanes- no change as they all spec 50 storm calling. Nerfed with less dex/qui from charge.

Champs- No change they ready spec 40/50 Valor. The 40 Valor ones lose access to higher charges effectively nerfing them.

Warden - already wanted in groups. No change.

Friar - basically the defacto sin slayer in their current state. Will get that much stronger when everyone else gets nerfed. Not wanted in groups due to alb meta this change isn't going to alter that.

Rangers - The archer that is head and shoulders above the others yet a select few do a disproportionate about of whining about their capabilities. Speccing high CD > high pathfinding for dps if you insist on keeping 35 bow. End of story. Pure melee rangers are already capable. What more do they need?

Hunters- easily the worst off because the only thing they can spec is higher spear or more stealth. With everyone running epic procs the pet is basically a liability without a disease proc or something. They need the most help but don't whine nearly as much as rangers. It's laughable. #givehuntersparry

Archers do also have a case to complain about the current stealth mechanics but this change is going to stop them from eating perfs.

So we're going to spite everyone else to indirectly help the 1 class that needs it the most?

Next.
Thu 9 May 2019 2:53 PM by florin
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:54 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:47 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:05 AM
Man, can't keep away from the personal insults when you don't have a leg to stand on eh?

IP2? What?

Anger of the gods? What?

Everyone has access to cheap /use charges, end of story.


Are you a moron? Aotg 2 12 dps damage add charge 11.3 dps. IP2 25% heal heal pot plus legion charge for 500~ hp average full buffed hp is what 1500-1750? These are extremely strong abilities on 10-15 minute cooldown and we're proposing making then available every 2 minutes. Having to full buff with charges curbed how often these broken charges were usable and their impact overall. I've beaten people without my spec af up when they did. I won't beat they same person if they can pop a 500hp heal or 11.3dps damage add and I can't. That's the fucking point.

The stat nerf sucks because it's completely unnecessary.

Also great job flexing on an heavy tanked specced to solo. If you lost to a stealther with moose and IP up you should probably uninstall. No one cares.

Who's proposing ip2 on a 2minute timer? Heal pot alrdy available every 1 minute. Legion heal charge also nerfed if diseased, so not like IP.

Everyone will have these available to them so why is it a problem.

[[This section @Mavella and Florin]] Also, what stealther fight are you talking about? Yes I'm saying come fight me cause florin is acting like an entitled whiny senseless jackass and I want to fight him in game. Edit: @Florin Ill even not use IP or Moose, cause mavella says theyre unfair. Ill add that to slam that you dont want me using. Itd be unfair for me to use block reactionaries too, clearly, would just be flexing on a tank specd for solo. Also no engage, clearly way too OP. No strcon debuff because thats just a symptom of the "catastrophic destruction of daoc" being proposed with this patch! And scale armor w 27% absorb, holy shit talk about OP! Too much tank flexing, better take that chest armour off. Come find me, Florin, w my no weapons, no shield, no chest armor, no moose, no IP, no celtic spear or lw, no debuff charges, and with your vanish up and we'll have ourselves a fair fight like Mavella wants.]]

How are you so badly missing the point and just not understanding things?

So many people just complain about any change to the game, seriously, it's not my or anyone elses responsibility to give you the attention you're craving, stop whining ffs.

you need help
Thu 9 May 2019 2:55 PM by Mavella
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:09 PM
@Mavella what classes are your mains?

I play 1 class feel free to look on the herald.

Also here's a thought, heal after purging disease. What about vs classes that don't disease? Again it's a free ip2 available every. Single. Fight.
Thu 9 May 2019 2:57 PM by Seal
1. remove all potions from current frontier zones (keep them pve only)
2, open agramon with full selfbuff npc and 50% less rp in that zone so you dont kill rvr action in frontiers (or if a money sink is needed allow potions here)

(tbh im fine with the new changes, it was just to throw some new ideas into the mix )
Thu 9 May 2019 2:59 PM by Svekt
Suggestion here:

You need to make the ENTIRE server aware this debate and input thread is going on. Every player I mention this to in game has no clue this is up for debate. A large portion of the people I talk to are super upset with the changes and I just forward them here. I personally feel like you're only getting input from an isolated portion of the players by doing this here.

Every time I cross post from here to alliance discord or relay the changes in alliance in game pretty much everyone opens up about how this is stupid. Please reach out to ALL your players and seek this feedback. Maybe one of your bright yellow messages once every 12 hours to let people know potential changes are up for debate and to come bring feedback.

Shoot, maybe even pull a mythic and put a poll on the launcher that they have to vote on before they play....can include a skip option for those people that want to just click play and go, and then its on their butts for not reading.
Thu 9 May 2019 3:04 PM by florin
Seal wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:57 PM
1. remove all potions from current frontier zones (keep them pve only)
2, open agramon with full selfbuff npc and 50% less rp in that zone so you dont kill rvr action in frontiers (or if a money sink is needed allow potions here)

(tbh im fine with the new changes, it was just to throw some new ideas into the mix )

my friar would also be fine with it - my inf, not so much
Thu 9 May 2019 3:48 PM by Mauriac
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:55 PM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:09 PM
@Mavella what classes are your mains?

I play 1 class feel free to look on the herald.

Also here's a thought, heal after purging disease. What about vs classes that don't disease? Again it's a free ip2 available every. Single. Fight.

Dark age of timers, active edition.

Time to see what the staff does with this. Someone else mentioned in here that they should post this upcoming change in game, not just the forums. Most people don't read the forums. I certainly didn't until I was told about the upcoming env nerf. Not that posting did any good there. In a way I wish I had never become active on here since now all I see are a few ok changes but mostly ones that screw my favorite class and my playstyle.

Some people will like these changes. I think they will be surprised to see most don't. I've seen people selling str/con and dex/qui items in trade channel for way under price and poor souls are getting scammed since little do they know they're pissing away a few plat for nothing in a few days.

NJ dev team.
Thu 9 May 2019 4:19 PM by Drominchen
My opinion:

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
The entire change list:

To achieve the first goal:
1) Increase the available conc by 25%

OK

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
2) Remove 20 buff cap

OK

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
3) Small delve increase to the acuity buff

is OK as long as charge is as high as specced red acuity buff and vice versa making 42 enh specs etc. valuable

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
4) Add spec AF to bards and healer

not OK, all realms have it available with charge, no need for conc buff in hib and mid.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
To achieve the second goal:
1) 30% buff of buff potion delve. This means from 65 (base + spec from current buff potion) or 101 (buff potion base + spec charge) to 83 (33 base, 50 spec)
2) haste potion and combo potion use the same haste
3) add appropriate spec AF to combo buff potion

all bad decisions, just leave as it is at the moment. With:
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
All self buffs that aren't already at buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example, some already are at that level some are not.
buff lines are made much stronger and are then totally worth to spec in. Maybe make hunter pet a bit faster and give it a snare/disease proc.

You could increase duration on pots/charges but I think at the moment you have a very good balance with timers vs charge buffs / item uses. If you run 3 charges you have 2 mins to use one extra strong use item (DA / legion heal) or you get a downtime when you still have item timer but no charge buff up, if you run less charges or have self buffs you get more time to use a strong timer item use. You are competitive with 2 charges + combined forces with 101 stats (that is already 39-54 less points per stat vs a grouped enemy or selfbuffer that can buff base and spec like friar...) meaning you have to wait max 2 mins before you can run off again after death or you just run a safer route and can rebuff the second charge near milegate.
Thu 9 May 2019 4:26 PM by cere2
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:26 PM
Saroi wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 8:36 AM
And which class would that be?

Classes like Thane, Friar, Champion, Rangers all spec into the "buff" line anyway because they get other stuff. Basically every thane has 50 Stormcalling, champions have 50 Valor, Melee Rangers go 50 Path for the str buff and damage add.
They NEED it for their casts or other stuff and they have the Str/Con or Dex/Quick Selfbuff in that line too which becomes pretty useless and not an advantage anymore.

So no, most selfbuff classes do not have the chance to spec something else instead or benefit in the same amount like non buffing classes.

Dude rangers have access to CD making them the top of the archer foodchain in melee by a WIDE margin. At rr5 you can wryd spec pick up 41 CD use those styles and still have access to the 150 speed boost and a permanent 3dps damage add. All while keeping 35 archery which is the supposed ceiling on this server.

Swinging that offhand for 70+ damage 30%+ more (and benefitting from the haste effect) is going to win you more fights than 6 more dps on a damage add.

Rangers also have the option to go pure melee keep high CD and pathfinding for the free Aug str7 and 9dps damage add making them melee monsters. I know one in particular seems to get off on making sins Vanish. Ask him about It.

Let's see how this proposed change is going to impact self buffers.

Thanes- no change as they all spec 50 storm calling. Nerfed with less dex/qui from charge.

Champs- No change they ready spec 40/50 Valor. The 40 Valor ones lose access to higher charges effectively nerfing them.

Warden - already wanted in groups. No change.

Friar - basically the defacto sin slayer in their current state. Will get that much stronger when everyone else gets nerfed. Not wanted in groups due to alb meta this change isn't going to alter that.

Rangers - The archer that is head and shoulders above the others yet a select few do a disproportionate about of whining about their capabilities. Speccing high CD > high pathfinding for dps if you insist on keeping 35 bow. End of story. Pure melee rangers are already capable. What more do they need?

Hunters- easily the worst off because the only thing they can spec is higher spesr or more stewlth. With everyone running epic procs the pet is basically a liability without a disease proc or something. They need the most help but don't whine nearly as much as rangers. It's laughable. #givehuntersparry

Archers do also have a case to complain about the current stealth mechanics but this change is going to stop them from eating perfs.

So we're going to spite everyone else to indirectly help the 1 class that needs it the most?

Next.

This is such nonsense. Ranger's PF and hunters BC lines were designed without the knowledge that assassin's would be buffed. They were designed before buff-bots were a thing.
So when you add free buff-potions (same as buff-bots on live) you destroy the advantage those spec lines created.
How hard is this to understand?
You are already spoiled in the fact you get any buffs and yet here you are saying rangers/hunters are fine because they can spec CD instead?
And hunters should have parry?
#1 your thoughts on how someone should spec should not dictate you gaining buffs because....they're fine without that line, or they're fine with a 3.0 dmg add blah blah.
#2 Hunter's don't have parry...so...sucks for them eh?
I'm good with leaving buffs as they are if we can remove LA/CD/DW or CS from assassin's lines. Sounds fair? We lose a spec line, so would you...
Thu 9 May 2019 4:35 PM by Bobbahunter
IT would help to reduce the cost of Tears from 75 to 50? Increase Mats cost from 200g to 300g? Still time sink for gold but less trying to get feathers. Gold is easier to get than feathers.

Make an in-combat use CF that costs 100 tears and 500g. If you MUST have that pot ( Draught ) then that is your choice, don't go whining that you cannot compete because your not Elite without it.

I play a Hunter, RR6L3 atm. I still love playing a Hunter even though it is probably the worst stealth class to play. I don't run Elite Charges because I don't want an Elite Headache. If people want to juggle their play style like a circus clown then let them.

I can go out and kill 3 peeps 4 peeps 5 peeps or get killed every run. I will still get more RPs in that Hour than the person spending an hour farming Plats to run ELITE charges. There is NO reward without sacrifice. Here the rewards don't out weigh the sacrifice, its part of it.

I play the game to have FUN, it is not supposed to be work. Yes it can be frustrating but it also has its rewards but in the end the only cost we pay is the time we spend.

Play for the Fun.
Thu 9 May 2019 4:42 PM by speedr
Please implement these changes. It is tedious having to constantly use charge buffs to stay competitive even when running a certain spec buffers.
Thu 9 May 2019 4:57 PM by Toddola
Why are you making such a big change to buffs this late into the game? You have the players, if people hated it that much they would of already left.

I made my template around having the charges, farmed for hours. now you just make them useless, All because some wingers cant be bothered to farm or keep a few buffs up..

I only play solo and this just seems like a kick in the balls. I often attack a small man group and now with this change i will have no chance to kill anything other then another solo, thats if i can kill them in time before i'm zerged down.
Thu 9 May 2019 5:08 PM by Mavella
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 4:26 PM
This is such nonsense. Ranger's PF and hunters BC lines were designed without the knowledge that assassin's would be buffed. They were designed before buff-bots were a thing.
So when you add free buff-potions (same as buff-bots on live) you destroy the advantage those spec lines created.
How hard is this to understand?
You are already spoiled in the fact you get any buffs and yet here you are saying rangers/hunters are fine because they can spec CD instead?
And hunters should have parry?
#1 your thoughts on how someone should spec should not dictate you gaining buffs because....they're fine without that line, or they're fine with a 3.0 dmg add blah blah.
#2 Hunter's don't have parry...so...sucks for them eh?
I'm good with leaving buffs as they are if we can remove LA/CD/DW or CS from assassin's lines. Sounds fair? We lose a spec line, so would you...

Dude you are totally delusional. Rangers managed to survive on live for how many years with even better buffs being given by buffbots. What did they all do? Lowered PF and pumped CD. The same exact thing you're capable of here. You are under the assumption that you MUST spec pathfinding high to be effective which isn't the reality of the situation.

Can it work here in a very specific capacity(melee only ranger) due to the current nature of base str given by pots and the charge system? Yes it can.

Even after the change if you spec super high pathfind you're either going to neuter your melee dps or give up bow. Its not going to stop you from eating perfs and it's not going to help you to actually learn how to play your class. I'm not interested in taking the nerf bat or completely altering the solo meta to further your half brained adjenda. Sorry.
Thu 9 May 2019 5:52 PM by CsCDK
Just remove those pots completely, want buffs group with one that have or play one that has.

Simple fix, no cost for anyone
Thu 9 May 2019 5:57 PM by cere2
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 5:08 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 4:26 PM
This is such nonsense. Ranger's PF and hunters BC lines were designed without the knowledge that assassin's would be buffed. They were designed before buff-bots were a thing.
So when you add free buff-potions (same as buff-bots on live) you destroy the advantage those spec lines created.
How hard is this to understand?
You are already spoiled in the fact you get any buffs and yet here you are saying rangers/hunters are fine because they can spec CD instead?
And hunters should have parry?
#1 your thoughts on how someone should spec should not dictate you gaining buffs because....they're fine without that line, or they're fine with a 3.0 dmg add blah blah.
#2 Hunter's don't have parry...so...sucks for them eh?
I'm good with leaving buffs as they are if we can remove LA/CD/DW or CS from assassin's lines. Sounds fair? We lose a spec line, so would you...

Dude you are totally delusional. Rangers managed to survive on live for how many years with even better buffs being given by buffbots. What did they all do? Lowered PF and pumped CD. The same exact thing you're capable of here. You are under the assumption that you MUST spec pathfinding high to be effective which isn't the reality of the situation.

Can it work here in a very specific capacity(melee only ranger) due to the current nature of base str given by pots and the charge system? Yes it can.

Even after the change if you spec super high pathfind you're either going to neuter your melee dps or give up bow. Its not going to stop you from eating perfs and it's not going to help you to actually learn how to play your class. I'm not interested in taking the nerf bat or completely altering the solo meta to further your half brained adjenda. Sorry.

I'm delusional?
You didn't refute any of my points that I made about rangers/hunters having spec lines before buff-bots etc. Basically, archers are fine.
I played Live for 12 years and I have no issues learning to play my class. Apparently you didn't play much Live and therefore don't remember them eliminating PF, and readjusting the entire class. Actually all the archer classes. That's why rangers survived. Derp.
Changing the solo meta, that's classic.
The half-brained agenda is yours at this point along with maybe 3 or 4 other assassin's.
I honestly hope this gets put in soon as most of the posts other than those 3 or 4 agree that this is a good change.
Even some assassin's are happy they won't have to juggle timers so much anymore.
All assassin's will lose the 18 bud, so your still on the same playing field. QQ

BC/PF line was designed so rangers/hunters were balanced vs assassin's if they had their buffs up.
Scouts had slam with 30 minute purge, that was their way of balance.
Assassin's didn't have buffs at that time, now they do, but PF/BC remain the same, and purge isnt 30 min rut. So even scout is not near as strong here as they were.
You say they are still balanced because they can spec differently. I say PF/BC is part of what made them balanced to begin with.

I guess I keep repeating the same point because it's obviously going over your head.
Thu 9 May 2019 6:20 PM by Mavella
You're not making any points worth refuting is the problem. I've said time and again you get most of utility out of pathfinding for MINIMAL investment allowing you to improve your melee prowess. Investing heavy pathfinding is going to force you to neuter melee or archery and the investment isn't really worth it outside of a pure melee spec. It's not going to be any different if this change is pushed.

I also don't give a flying fuck what they did after ruining the game with ToA and Cata and all that garbage. If you want to play live with all the great changes feel free. I play a 1.65 server for a 1.65 experience. Pots and charges are the proxy for buffbots which was status quo for the era and I'm fine with the current system or making the "QoL" changes on making it all available from a bottle. I am not fine taking an arbitrary Stat nerf and making OP charges available constantly as a result of the "QoL" . I planned my character around expected stats and buffs at end game and have no interest in spending tens of plats paying for race and starting Stat respecs because we decided to alter the foundation of the buffing system 4 months after launch.

The only things that will be different.

-All solo/smallman groups are going have an increased likelyhood of getting added on. (preloaded ablative and heal+legion heal availability every fight)
-Solos and smallman are going to be even more ineffective vs organized players than they already are.
-You're going to need to pop a different set of charges to be competitive effectively changing nothing.
-whiners that have no idea how to play will be appeased and the remaining 200 of them on the server will rejoice.


Maybe if you actually played the server instead of lamenting on the forums about archers you'd actually understand these points.
Thu 9 May 2019 6:47 PM by Yokahu
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 6:20 PM
I play a 1.65 server for a 1.65 experience.
I think you want Uthgard then, not Phoenix.

Anyway, I would love if they make the pots as strong as buffbots’ buffs back in the day (101), but that would be a major hit to the buffing classes. Having said that, I remember groups not running buffing classes in their ranks because they would all be buffed by buffbots before leaving PK.
Thu 9 May 2019 6:54 PM by Mavella
I played Uthgard for a few years and had fun before it imploded and rebooted. The server is dead. This server is great but it's gonna tailspin sooner than later with half baked changes like this.
Thu 9 May 2019 7:07 PM by cere2
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 6:20 PM
You're not making any points worth refuting is the problem. I've said time and again you get most of utility out of pathfinding for MINIMAL investment allowing you to improve your melee prowess. Investing heavy pathfinding is going to force you to neuter melee or archery and the investment isn't really worth it outside of a pure melee spec. It's not going to be any different if this change is pushed.

I also don't give a flying fuck what they did after ruining the game with ToA and Cata and all that garbage. If you want to play live with all the great changes feel free. I play a 1.65 server for a 1.65 experience. Pots and charges are the proxy for buffbots which was status quo for the era and I'm fine with the current system or making the "QoL" changes on making it all available from a bottle. I am not fine taking an arbitrary Stat nerf and making OP charges available constantly as a result of the "QoL" . I planned my character around expected stats and buffs at end game and have no interest in spending tens of plats paying for race and starting Stat respecs because we decided to alter the foundation of the buffing system 4 months after launch.

The only things that will be different.

-All solo/smallman groups are going have an increased likelyhood of getting added on. (preloaded ablative and heal+legion heal availability every fight)
-Solos and smallman are going to be even more ineffective vs organized players than they already are.
-You're going to need to pop a different set of charges to be competitive effectively changing nothing.
-whiners that have no idea how to play will be appeased and the remaining 200 of them on the server will rejoice.


Maybe if you actually played the server instead of lamenting on the forums about archers you'd actually understand these points.

No valid points, or just none that you can dispute.
It's fine that your against this QOL improvement since they can't please everyone anyhow.
Love the people that come on forums and say learn to play etc when they haven't played this game for 10 years. Glad you enjoy this server, so do others. I have a job so can't play right now that's why I peruse the forums.
Kinda figured out the deal with you anyhow. Your afraid of self-buffing classes possibly having full buffs while your assassin won't. The old rock/paper/scissor thing.
It seems to me most are fine with the qol of this and it should be in game soon. See ya out there chuckle's
Thu 9 May 2019 7:22 PM by Mavella
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 7:07 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 6:20 PM
You're not making any points worth refuting is the problem. I've said time and again you get most of utility out of pathfinding for MINIMAL investment allowing you to improve your melee prowess. Investing heavy pathfinding is going to force you to neuter melee or archery and the investment isn't really worth it outside of a pure melee spec. It's not going to be any different if this change is pushed.

I also don't give a flying fuck what they did after ruining the game with ToA and Cata and all that garbage. If you want to play live with all the great changes feel free. I play a 1.65 server for a 1.65 experience. Pots and charges are the proxy for buffbots which was status quo for the era and I'm fine with the current system or making the "QoL" changes on making it all available from a bottle. I am not fine taking an arbitrary Stat nerf and making OP charges available constantly as a result of the "QoL" . I planned my character around expected stats and buffs at end game and have no interest in spending tens of plats paying for race and starting Stat respecs because we decided to alter the foundation of the buffing system 4 months after launch.

The only things that will be different.

-All solo/smallman groups are going have an increased likelyhood of getting added on. (preloaded ablative and heal+legion heal availability every fight)
-Solos and smallman are going to be even more ineffective vs organized players than they already are.
-You're going to need to pop a different set of charges to be competitive effectively changing nothing.
-whiners that have no idea how to play will be appeased and the remaining 200 of them on the server will rejoice.


Maybe if you actually played the server instead of lamenting on the forums about archers you'd actually understand these points.

No valid points, or just none that you can dispute.
It's fine that your against this QOL improvement since they can't please everyone anyhow.
Love the people that come on forums and say learn to play etc when they haven't played this game for 10 years. Glad you enjoy this server, so do others. I have a job so can't play right now that's why I peruse the forums.
Kinda figured out the deal with you anyhow. Your afraid of self-buffing classes possibly having full buffs while your assassin won't. The old rock/paper/scissor thing.
It seems to me most are fine with the qol of this and it should be in game soon. See ya out there chuckle's

I have no issue with then bumping self buffs. The playing field is currently even with everyone having access to all the same buffs with fairly minimal time investment. Your mental falacy is that classes like rangers are 100% reliant on speccing high pathfinding when I and others have told you that patently isn't true. You are the one that refuses to see reality. I'm perfectly fine with QoL changes but not when they are packaged with an arbitrary nerf and total meta change. Keep armchair quarterbacking though. See you in the frontiers...or not.
Thu 9 May 2019 7:29 PM by cere2
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 7:22 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 7:07 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 6:20 PM
You're not making any points worth refuting is the problem. I've said time and again you get most of utility out of pathfinding for MINIMAL investment allowing you to improve your melee prowess. Investing heavy pathfinding is going to force you to neuter melee or archery and the investment isn't really worth it outside of a pure melee spec. It's not going to be any different if this change is pushed.

I also don't give a flying fuck what they did after ruining the game with ToA and Cata and all that garbage. If you want to play live with all the great changes feel free. I play a 1.65 server for a 1.65 experience. Pots and charges are the proxy for buffbots which was status quo for the era and I'm fine with the current system or making the "QoL" changes on making it all available from a bottle. I am not fine taking an arbitrary Stat nerf and making OP charges available constantly as a result of the "QoL" . I planned my character around expected stats and buffs at end game and have no interest in spending tens of plats paying for race and starting Stat respecs because we decided to alter the foundation of the buffing system 4 months after launch.

The only things that will be different.

-All solo/smallman groups are going have an increased likelyhood of getting added on. (preloaded ablative and heal+legion heal availability every fight)
-Solos and smallman are going to be even more ineffective vs organized players than they already are.
-You're going to need to pop a different set of charges to be competitive effectively changing nothing.
-whiners that have no idea how to play will be appeased and the remaining 200 of them on the server will rejoice.


Maybe if you actually played the server instead of lamenting on the forums about archers you'd actually understand these points.

No valid points, or just none that you can dispute.
It's fine that your against this QOL improvement since they can't please everyone anyhow.
Love the people that come on forums and say learn to play etc when they haven't played this game for 10 years. Glad you enjoy this server, so do others. I have a job so can't play right now that's why I peruse the forums.
Kinda figured out the deal with you anyhow. Your afraid of self-buffing classes possibly having full buffs while your assassin won't. The old rock/paper/scissor thing.
It seems to me most are fine with the qol of this and it should be in game soon. See ya out there chuckle's

I have no issue with then bumping self buffs. The playing field is currently even with everyone having access to all the same buffs with fairly minimal time investment. Your mental falacy is that classes like rangers are 100% reliant on speccing high pathfinding when I and others have told you that patently isn't true. You are the one that refuses to see reality. I'm perfectly fine with QoL changes but not when they are packaged with an arbitrary nerf and total meta change. Keep armchair quarterbacking though. See you in the frontiers...or not.

Never said they were totally reliant on their buffs, that is something you keep saying I said.
I said that spec line is worthless when you can get buffs in other ways potions etc....re-read if you must.
You can keep armchair quarterbacking as well.
Perhaps we should have a vote on this issue, though I think even if the vote was yes, they would all be know nothing zerglings etc etc..
Thu 9 May 2019 7:43 PM by Mavella
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 7:29 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 7:22 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 7:07 PM
No valid points, or just none that you can dispute.
It's fine that your against this QOL improvement since they can't please everyone anyhow.
Love the people that come on forums and say learn to play etc when they haven't played this game for 10 years. Glad you enjoy this server, so do others. I have a job so can't play right now that's why I peruse the forums.
Kinda figured out the deal with you anyhow. Your afraid of self-buffing classes possibly having full buffs while your assassin won't. The old rock/paper/scissor thing.
It seems to me most are fine with the qol of this and it should be in game soon. See ya out there chuckle's

I have no issue with then bumping self buffs. The playing field is currently even with everyone having access to all the same buffs with fairly minimal time investment. Your mental falacy is that classes like rangers are 100% reliant on speccing high pathfinding when I and others have told you that patently isn't true. You are the one that refuses to see reality. I'm perfectly fine with QoL changes but not when they are packaged with an arbitrary nerf and total meta change. Keep armchair quarterbacking though. See you in the frontiers...or not.

Never said they were totally reliant on their buffs, that is something you keep saying I said.
I said that spec line is worthless when you can get buffs in other ways potions etc....re-read if you must.
You can also keep armchair quarterbacking as well. At least I have more experience on this server than with one class.
You have experience with one class on this server.
Which you said in an earlier post is all you have.
How do you know how this effects smallman and fg's? Do you have experience with visi's on this server?
Nope....

So if they aren't reliant on the buffs and they get utility with minimal investment what is your incessant whining been about the past four months. The claim is pots make Them useless when there obvious examples to the contrary given time and again . Are they not as attractive as they'd be In a world without free buffs? Certainly. We have never lived in they world however and no one is interested in experiencing it. Are these lines totally useless? Nope.


Also,

You can't seem to be successful on three of the strongest solo classes and have done nothing but piss and moan on the forums for months on end. Between that and practically admitting you don't play doesn't make me want to take you seriously. I also don't need currently play visible classes on this server when I have a fundamental experience at this patch level from both Live and Uthgard. What I do know is these changes aren't going to make you any more likely to not be terrible and your blame game will instead shift elsewhere and here you'll be whining on the forums. I've reiterated my points enough and am done responding to you in particular. Goodbye.
Thu 9 May 2019 8:08 PM by mhenfhis
i change your DW skill of ranger for my shield
Thu 9 May 2019 8:15 PM by Eidorf
I think this thread has gone on long enough, maybe it's time it was locked and the changes implemented...

Anyone with half a brain can see that the changes are fair and balanced in achieving the goals set out by the op. The only people who don't see this are a handful of stealthers who clearly have no interest in fairness anyway.

My only real concern is for all the people that are not aware of the impending changes who could potentially lose out on a good chunk of feathers. Personally I would be a bit annoyed if i had purchased a charge item one day, only for it to be nullified the following day. I would suggest at the very least a /servernews post informing players that a change to charges is likely.

One final thing Please consider extending the CF pot buff duration from 10 to 20 mins (or 23 mins) in line with self buffs as a QOL change.

Many thanks.
Thu 9 May 2019 8:15 PM by noobino
Anyone else notice the only people bitching about this change are Shadowblades? Why is that? I think its time to give SB's a self-buff line with +75 s/c, d/q, AF, 20% haste, 11.3 dmg add. Change the bonus to hib leather and alb leather. Give them SoS3 for free and a 2 min vanish timer exclusive to them so they can finally shut the fuck up.

See you out at APK Emain where I know where to find 95% of every SB on the server anyway.

~Your scary 20% bonus dmg Solo NS bud.
Thu 9 May 2019 8:59 PM by Mauriac
noobino wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 8:15 PM
Anyone else notice the only people bitching about this change are Shadowblades? Why is that? I think its time to give SB's a self-buff line with +75 s/c, d/q, AF, 20% haste, 11.3 dmg add. Change the bonus to hib leather and alb leather. Give them SoS3 for free and a 2 min vanish timer exclusive to them so they can finally shut the fuck up.

See you out at APK Emain where I know where to find 95% of every SB on the server anyway.

~Your scary 20% bonus dmg Solo NS bud.

Probably because if you do the math on the stat changes you realize SBs get fucked harder by these changes than infs and NS do. If you're interested, pull up a char planner and do the stat math. You will see what we're seeing. This changes aren't just QoL, they're meta altering AND balance altering being packaged as QoL for the casuals. It's basically lame and they're being disengenuous or incompetent by not acknowledging it.
Thu 9 May 2019 9:06 PM by Saroi
noobino wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 8:15 PM
Anyone else notice the only people bitching about this change are Shadowblades? Why is that? I think its time to give SB's a self-buff line with +75 s/c, d/q, AF, 20% haste, 11.3 dmg add. Change the bonus to hib leather and alb leather. Give them SoS3 for free and a 2 min vanish timer exclusive to them so they can finally shut the fuck up.

See you out at APK Emain where I know where to find 95% of every SB on the server anyway.

~Your scary 20% bonus dmg Solo NS bud.

A bit exaggerated because there are others complaining too like scouts but I get your point from the last pages. Especially as a SB I do not see how you can think this here will nerf you more than others. For my playstyle I see it as a Buff. I never use dex/quick charge because I love my damage add charge and I know a few other SB who prefer damage add over dex/quick too. So I will actually get more quickness now and can use my beloved damage add in fights more often. I am happy and looking forward to these changes.

ANd I don't like vanish because it is buggy af, so no need 2 min vanish timer. But I'd gladly take the SoS3
Thu 9 May 2019 9:07 PM by Quathan
I agree that we should have a community vote on this.. Maybe the numbers can give us an answer..

Looks like most people agree with most of the changes but just want charges as they are now. If the "small" amount of stats matter to people they can juggle charges and otherwise use the pot..
Thu 9 May 2019 9:29 PM by cere2
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 7:43 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 7:29 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 7:22 PM
I have no issue with then bumping self buffs. The playing field is currently even with everyone having access to all the same buffs with fairly minimal time investment. Your mental falacy is that classes like rangers are 100% reliant on speccing high pathfinding when I and others have told you that patently isn't true. You are the one that refuses to see reality. I'm perfectly fine with QoL changes but not when they are packaged with an arbitrary nerf and total meta change. Keep armchair quarterbacking though. See you in the frontiers...or not.

Never said they were totally reliant on their buffs, that is something you keep saying I said.
I said that spec line is worthless when you can get buffs in other ways potions etc....re-read if you must.
You can also keep armchair quarterbacking as well. At least I have more experience on this server than with one class.
You have experience with one class on this server.
Which you said in an earlier post is all you have.
How do you know how this effects smallman and fg's? Do you have experience with visi's on this server?
Nope....

So if they aren't reliant on the buffs and they get utility with minimal investment what is your incessant whining been about the past four months. The claim is pots make Them useless when there obvious examples to the contrary given time and again . Are they not as attractive as they'd be In a world without free buffs? Certainly. We have never lived in they world however and no one is interested in experiencing it. Are these lines totally useless? Nope.


Also,

You can't seem to be successful on three of the strongest solo classes and have done nothing but piss and moan on the forums for months on end. Between that and practically admitting you don't play doesn't make me want to take you seriously. I also don't need currently play visible classes on this server when I have a fundamental experience at this patch level from both Live and Uthgard. What I do know is these changes aren't going to make you any more likely to not be terrible and your blame game will instead shift elsewhere and here you'll be whining on the forums. I've reiterated my points enough and am done responding to you in particular. Goodbye.

Good,your just another troll that knows nothing of this game. Especially calling archers one of the strongest solo classes. That says it all.
And you think I play terrible? My character was/is Ceremon on Live, Any time you would like to duel and see how terrible I am let me know.
I don't play much on this server at the moment, mostly because the "strongest solo classes" are somehow tough to play at the moment.
Guess it must be my lack of skills....
Thu 9 May 2019 9:31 PM by cere2
Quathan wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 9:07 PM
I agree that we should have a community vote on this.. Maybe the numbers can give us an answer..

Looks like most people agree with most of the changes but just want charges as they are now. If the "small" amount of stats matter to people they can juggle charges and otherwise use the pot..

They want the charges as they are now so they don't lose 18 stats.
If the devs want to give out full on buffs like Live I'm ok with that as long as self buffing classes are redesigned.
Thu 9 May 2019 9:47 PM by Mavella
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 9:29 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 7:43 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 7:29 PM
Never said they were totally reliant on their buffs, that is something you keep saying I said.
I said that spec line is worthless when you can get buffs in other ways potions etc....re-read if you must.
You can also keep armchair quarterbacking as well. At least I have more experience on this server than with one class.
You have experience with one class on this server.
Which you said in an earlier post is all you have.
How do you know how this effects smallman and fg's? Do you have experience with visi's on this server?
Nope....

So if they aren't reliant on the buffs and they get utility with minimal investment what is your incessant whining been about the past four months. The claim is pots make Them useless when there obvious examples to the contrary given time and again . Are they not as attractive as they'd be In a world without free buffs? Certainly. We have never lived in they world however and no one is interested in experiencing it. Are these lines totally useless? Nope.


Also,

You can't seem to be successful on three of the strongest solo classes and have done nothing but piss and moan on the forums for months on end. Between that and practically admitting you don't play doesn't make me want to take you seriously. I also don't need currently play visible classes on this server when I have a fundamental experience at this patch level from both Live and Uthgard. What I do know is these changes aren't going to make you any more likely to not be terrible and your blame game will instead shift elsewhere and here you'll be whining on the forums. I've reiterated my points enough and am done responding to you in particular. Goodbye.

Good,your just another troll that knows nothing of this game. Especially calling archers one of the strongest solo classes. That says it all.
And you think I play terrible? My character was/is Ceremon on Live, Any time you would like to duel and see how terrible I am let me know.
I don't play much on this server at the moment, mostly because the "strongest solo classes" are somehow tough to play at the moment.
Guess it must be my lack of skills....

-No one cares who you are on the dumpster fire that is live.

-Rangers are strong. Ask the guys that are successful at it and get and get some pointers. Their situation is tougher due to custom stealth changes not because of pathfinding and buffpots/charges. Sorry you can't adapt and instead kick and thrash about self buffs.

-What's the excuse for the BD or skald?

Again, see you in the frontiers. Oh wait...
Thu 9 May 2019 10:09 PM by Mauriac
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:59 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:45 AM
Every post from you reduces my confidence in the long term health of this server. Not getting that this hurts stealther life after admitting a few sentences earlier that it’s a nerf is next level cognitive dissonance.

Why is there any cognitive dissonance?

In one scenario you lose some stats but gain those stats in another, after this change there is no possible way as a solo non buffer to ever see another non buffer solo that's better buffed than you. It's much more likely (almost guaranteed even) that both of you have your charge timers up and that you're hence not running in the scenario where you just charged up some buff and then get an inc of someone who is able to use their heal or dd or whatever charge while you're not able to.

This is neither a straight up nerf under all circumstances nor a buff under all, it is however a straight up qol improvement at the cost of achievable max stats while raising the standard stats.

It makes soloing / small manning a lot more accessible / less of a hassle.

this post is proof positive that this change was conjured up as an idea but you haven't actually sat down and looked at how the stats will play out on a per class/race basis with temped level 50s. It's more than a QoL change, it will impact certain classes/races differently than others. IE, some will lose damage, and hp, some will lose damage, and hp, and defense. that makes it a balance change as much or more than just QoL. People who never ran charges will notice minor increases in performance relative to everyone else. Either way, it's your server. i've made my thoughts pretty clear. Hope it does what you think it will do but i know it wont.
Thu 9 May 2019 10:11 PM by Mauriac
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 9:31 PM
Quathan wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 9:07 PM
I agree that we should have a community vote on this.. Maybe the numbers can give us an answer..

Looks like most people agree with most of the changes but just want charges as they are now. If the "small" amount of stats matter to people they can juggle charges and otherwise use the pot..

They want the charges as they are now so they don't lose 18 stats.
If the devs want to give out full on buffs like Live I'm ok with that as long as self buffing classes are redesigned.

i want the charges as they are now so i dont lose 80 stats.
Thu 9 May 2019 10:24 PM by Cswag80
EVERYONE will lose the same stats if they choose to use the potions. Lord forbid someone has to drop MoP5 to pick up aug quickness and the like. The "lost stats" (typically for the people who seem to love running charges CONSTANTLY) can be made up with RA's.

Adapt. 🤷🏼‍♂️
Thu 9 May 2019 11:38 PM by phixion
Surely if it was about QoL they would make d/q and s/c in combined forces the same as the charge value.

Cswag80 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 10:24 PM
EVERYONE will lose the same stats if they choose to use the potions. Lord forbid someone has to drop MoP5 to pick up aug quickness and the like. The "lost stats" (typically for the people who seem to love running charges CONSTANTLY) can be made up with RA's.

Adapt. 🤷🏼‍♂️

The levels of aug qui will vary massively depending on race, at this point most SBs will probably be respeccing to Kobold or Valkyn because Norse won't hit 250 qui, then they lose all the str which is their primary damage.

It's more a case of having to use charges when solo...
Fri 10 May 2019 12:38 AM by Griselda
All this stuff is so contrary to all you did on Phoenix so far... DID Blue or Abydos infiltrate your staff or sth? You guys lost your mind with those changes
Fri 10 May 2019 12:38 AM by florin
phixion wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 11:38 PM
Surely if it was about QoL they would make d/q and s/c in combined forces the same as the charge value.

Apparently this would break the buffer dynamics and change group composition like in beta. Simple fix - no charges while grouped.
Fri 10 May 2019 12:54 AM by Griselda
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
Before this everyone already has access to the 75 delve charge, therefore this is not suddenly giving another realm access to an albion only buff.
-> That is such a stupid justification. Where does it end? Why not give Clerics and Endu Regen buff, i mean its not like Albion did not have access to Endu Reg before so it would make perfect sense to make the access a little bit easier... You can apply this thoughtprocess to so many things. It's just dumb.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
2) all self buffs that aren't already at normal buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example
-> This is such a crazy proposal, what about the lower level self buffs if you are not 50 spec? Will you actually upgrade them to accordingly? If not, why not? JUST LEAVE IT AS IT IS FOR GODS SAKE THIS IS IDIOTIC

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
1) If you are grouped with a buffer you are buffed by the buffer and don't need to use any charges / potions except for maybe useless things like str on caster
-> WHY THOUGH??? Charges are exactly for that and it is not at all a big deal to get charges... Why would you turn this server into a communist one? People that put more time into the game should be rewarded for that. If one is to lazy to charge 1 or 2 buffs while he wants to take part in competetive gameplay HE SUCKS and WILL ALWAYS SUCK

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
The entire change list:

To achieve the first goal:
1) Increase the available conc by 25% -> DUMB and ALB NERF SHAMAN OP
2) Remove 20 buff cap -> DUMB and ALB NERF SHAMAN OP
3) Small delve increase to the acuity buff -> CHARGE IT LAZY BASTARDS
4) Add spec AF to bards and healer -> CHARGE IT LAZY BASTARDS

1) DUMB and ALB NERF SHAMAN OP
2) DUMB and ALB NERF SHAMAN OP
3) CHARGE IT LAZY BASTARDS = DUMB CHANGE
4) CHARGE IT LAZY BASTARDS = DUMB CHANGE

Im sorry for the rant but you guys got stuck in a stupid idea loop. All you should do is abandon this whole thing and move on to other topics.

Sincerly

Bloodwyne/Caroli/Loreen/Anub/Grizelda
Fri 10 May 2019 2:39 AM by Bradekes
Griselda wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:54 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
Before this everyone already has access to the 75 delve charge, therefore this is not suddenly giving another realm access to an albion only buff.
-> That is such a stupid justification. Where does it end? Why not give Clerics and Endu Regen buff, i mean its not like Albion did not have access to Endu Reg before so it would make perfect sense to make the access a little bit easier... You can apply this thoughtprocess to so many things. It's just dumb.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
2) all self buffs that aren't already at normal buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example
-> This is such a crazy proposal, what about the lower level self buffs if you are not 50 spec? Will you actually upgrade them to accordingly? If not, why not? JUST LEAVE IT AS IT IS FOR GODS SAKE THIS IS IDIOTIC

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
1) If you are grouped with a buffer you are buffed by the buffer and don't need to use any charges / potions except for maybe useless things like str on caster
-> WHY THOUGH??? Charges are exactly for that and it is not at all a big deal to get charges... Why would you turn this server into a communist one? People that put more time into the game should be rewarded for that. If one is to lazy to charge 1 or 2 buffs while he wants to take part in competetive gameplay HE SUCKS and WILL ALWAYS SUCK

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
The entire change list:

To achieve the first goal:
1) Increase the available conc by 25% -> DUMB and ALB NERF SHAMAN OP
2) Remove 20 buff cap -> DUMB and ALB NERF SHAMAN OP
3) Small delve increase to the acuity buff -> CHARGE IT LAZY BASTARDS
4) Add spec AF to bards and healer -> CHARGE IT LAZY BASTARDS

1) DUMB and ALB NERF SHAMAN OP
2) DUMB and ALB NERF SHAMAN OP
3) CHARGE IT LAZY BASTARDS = DUMB CHANGE
4) CHARGE IT LAZY BASTARDS = DUMB CHANGE

Im sorry for the rant but you guys got stuck in a stupid idea loop. All you should do is abandon this whole thing and move on to other topics.

Sincerly

Bloodwyne/Caroli/Loreen/Anub/Grizelda

Simple question here.. What about there being a haste buff in the pot?? Is that a hib nerf because haste is a druid buff??

Ohh there's also endo regen pots.. Is that a shaman nerf??

You could use Spec AF charges already and that is live like at 1.65 did mythic nerf alb with that??

I swear it's always the albs complaining when they have gotten the most custom buffs to their classes already bunch if friggen whiners
Fri 10 May 2019 3:49 AM by Svekt
Svekt wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:59 PM
Suggestion here:

You need to make the ENTIRE server aware this debate and input thread is going on. Every player I mention this to in game has no clue this is up for debate. A large portion of the people I talk to are super upset with the changes and I just forward them here. I personally feel like you're only getting input from an isolated portion of the players by doing this here.

Every time I cross post from here to alliance discord or relay the changes in alliance in game pretty much everyone opens up about how this is stupid. Please reach out to ALL your players and seek this feedback. Maybe one of your bright yellow messages once every 12 hours to let people know potential changes are up for debate and to come bring feedback.

Shoot, maybe even pull a mythic and put a poll on the launcher that they have to vote on before they play....can include a skip option for those people that want to just click play and go, and then its on their butts for not reading.

Repeating because I still have not seen this mentioned on the server. You have only a handful of peoples opinions. You guys are only looking at balancing issues and not the trickle down effect through the economy and its impact on the duration of fights. How many people are going to be pissed about farming and buying charges and then leave when they had no idea you were thinking about removing the charges. Every chance I get i mention this in game to someone and 80% of the time they have no idea this discussion is in place.
Fri 10 May 2019 4:26 AM by Seal
will bonedancers run in a group with all pet buffed now af included ?
Fri 10 May 2019 5:24 AM by jelzinga_EU
Seal wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 4:26 AM
will bonedancers run in a group with all pet buffed now af included ?

I doubt it. Even tho the 20 buff-cap is removed and concentration is increased most groups run an aug-healer for bases (and now spec-AF) and aug-shammy for specs. That leaves very little room to buff any remaining pets, except for the occasional bases from the pac-healer (which where already done on the pets if they wanted to).
Fri 10 May 2019 5:41 AM by jelzinga_EU
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 2:39 AM
Griselda wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:54 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
Before this everyone already has access to the 75 delve charge, therefore this is not suddenly giving another realm access to an albion only buff.
-> That is such a stupid justification. Where does it end? Why not give Clerics and Endu Regen buff, i mean its not like Albion did not have access to Endu Reg before so it would make perfect sense to make the access a little bit easier... You can apply this thoughtprocess to so many things. It's just dumb.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
2) all self buffs that aren't already at normal buff level are increased to that level, that means any spec self buff given at 50 spec will be 75 delve for example
-> This is such a crazy proposal, what about the lower level self buffs if you are not 50 spec? Will you actually upgrade them to accordingly? If not, why not? JUST LEAVE IT AS IT IS FOR GODS SAKE THIS IS IDIOTIC

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
1) If you are grouped with a buffer you are buffed by the buffer and don't need to use any charges / potions except for maybe useless things like str on caster
-> WHY THOUGH??? Charges are exactly for that and it is not at all a big deal to get charges... Why would you turn this server into a communist one? People that put more time into the game should be rewarded for that. If one is to lazy to charge 1 or 2 buffs while he wants to take part in competetive gameplay HE SUCKS and WILL ALWAYS SUCK

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
The entire change list:

To achieve the first goal:
1) Increase the available conc by 25% -> DUMB and ALB NERF SHAMAN OP
2) Remove 20 buff cap -> DUMB and ALB NERF SHAMAN OP
3) Small delve increase to the acuity buff -> CHARGE IT LAZY BASTARDS
4) Add spec AF to bards and healer -> CHARGE IT LAZY BASTARDS

1) DUMB and ALB NERF SHAMAN OP
2) DUMB and ALB NERF SHAMAN OP
3) CHARGE IT LAZY BASTARDS = DUMB CHANGE
4) CHARGE IT LAZY BASTARDS = DUMB CHANGE

Im sorry for the rant but you guys got stuck in a stupid idea loop. All you should do is abandon this whole thing and move on to other topics.

Sincerly

Bloodwyne/Caroli/Loreen/Anub/Grizelda

Simple question here.. What about there being a haste buff in the pot?? Is that a hib nerf because haste is a druid buff??

Ohh there's also endo regen pots.. Is that a shaman nerf??

You could use Spec AF charges already and that is live like at 1.65 did mythic nerf alb with that??

I swear it's always the albs complaining when they have gotten the most custom buffs to their classes already bunch if friggen whiners

The irony is that at the start only Midgard had an endo-buff. Later on, the shaman unique endo-buff was given to Hibs and Albs. But that was obviously different. Now the other 2 realms get an unique buff from Albion and the sky is falling. The funny thing is that giving endo to clerics "since there are already pots" means he disregards paladins entirely, even tho he plays one..

Most of the cries are revolving around a theoretical decrease in someone's performance which he thinks is more than his enemies get. Or some "pro-gamers" who think the lesser beings of this DAOC-world shouldn't be on the same ground as them with buffs. The non-vocal majority (casuals) will enjoy this change as it makes the game much more user-friendly and they can be on the same footing as the pro's - minus the 6 RR gap, obviously
Fri 10 May 2019 5:47 AM by Ceen
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 5:41 AM
The irony is that at the start only Midgard had an endo-buff. Later on, the shaman unique endo-buff was given to Hibs and Albs. But that was obviously different. Now the other 2 realms get an unique buff from Albion and the sky is falling. The funny thing is that giving endo to clerics "since there are already pots" means he disregards paladins entirely, even tho he plays one..

The irony is that actually Hibernia had the endu song and later on the Hibernia unique endu song was given to Mids and Albs.
Fri 10 May 2019 6:44 AM by Tamy
Svekt wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 3:49 AM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:59 PM
Suggestion here:

You need to make the ENTIRE server aware this debate and input thread is going on. Every player I mention this to in game has no clue this is up for debate. A large portion of the people I talk to are super upset with the changes and I just forward them here. I personally feel like you're only getting input from an isolated portion of the players by doing this here.

Every time I cross post from here to alliance discord or relay the changes in alliance in game pretty much everyone opens up about how this is stupid. Please reach out to ALL your players and seek this feedback. Maybe one of your bright yellow messages once every 12 hours to let people know potential changes are up for debate and to come bring feedback.

Shoot, maybe even pull a mythic and put a poll on the launcher that they have to vote on before they play....can include a skip option for those people that want to just click play and go, and then its on their butts for not reading.

Repeating because I still have not seen this mentioned on the server. You have only a handful of peoples opinions. You guys are only looking at balancing issues and not the trickle down effect through the economy and its impact on the duration of fights. How many people are going to be pissed about farming and buying charges and then leave when they had no idea you were thinking about removing the charges. Every chance I get i mention this in game to someone and 80% of the time they have no idea this discussion is in place.

This. Please consider devs.
Fri 10 May 2019 6:53 AM by jaybrewer
the buff changes scare me . spent a lot years on live I know this is different and that's why I came here,. but look at what happened there by keep messing with the solo.ers , they left in groves, and they kept taking from solo peeps, and see how many are there , a lot of us don't group cause we, cant and eventualy the solo'ers will make the same old stealth zergs we ended up with , and then boom everyone was leaving , by taking our chance to have good buffs , you take away our chances to win a fight . if you don't want people to solo just tell us save us from waiting .
Fri 10 May 2019 7:04 AM by tommccartney
I think it’s clear from the 33 pages of this thread that this change will upset the player base.

Do not make such a big changes to the server this late on.

Also, stop proposing big changes, whether they go live or not, or this server will be dead by Christmas.

People do not like investing their time, only for things to be changed and their hard work lost.

Phoenix is the best DAoC server I have played, it has perfect balance - the way it is.

Please reconsider.
Fri 10 May 2019 7:06 AM by Eystorvag
These changes sound reasonable and fair. I hope they go live with this Version.
Fri 10 May 2019 7:28 AM by SlowMo
tommccartney wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:04 AM
I think it’s clear from the 33 pages of this thread that this change will upset the player base.


There I disagree, there are tons of posts in this thread saying they like the change.
So please don´t spread false assumptions.
Fri 10 May 2019 7:30 AM by tommccartney
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:28 AM
tommccartney wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:04 AM
I think it’s clear from the 33 pages of this thread that this change will upset the player base.


There I disagree, there are tons of posts in this thread saying they like the change.
So please don´t spread false assumptions.

Oh yeah sorry, it’s 33 pages of ‘yeah that sounds great’ ...... my bad -.-
Fri 10 May 2019 7:37 AM by SlowMo
tommccartney wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:30 AM
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:28 AM
tommccartney wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:04 AM
I think it’s clear from the 33 pages of this thread that this change will upset the player base.


There I disagree, there are tons of posts in this thread saying they like the change.
So please don´t spread false assumptions.

Oh yeah sorry, it’s 33 pages of ‘yeah that sounds great’ ...... my bad -.-

There I have to disagree again.

Maybe you should stop acting like a 5 year old because this adds absolutely zero to this topic
Fri 10 May 2019 8:00 AM by tommccartney
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:37 AM
tommccartney wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:30 AM
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:28 AM
There I disagree, there are tons of posts in this thread saying they like the change.
So please don´t spread false assumptions.

Oh yeah sorry, it’s 33 pages of ‘yeah that sounds great’ ...... my bad -.-

There I have to disagree again.

Maybe you should stop acting like a 5 year old because this adds absolutely zero to this topic

Stop crying please lol, keep it on topic, thank you.
Fri 10 May 2019 8:06 AM by SlowMo
tommccartney wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 8:00 AM
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:37 AM
tommccartney wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:30 AM
Oh yeah sorry, it’s 33 pages of ‘yeah that sounds great’ ...... my bad -.-

There I have to disagree again.

Maybe you should stop acting like a 5 year old because this adds absolutely zero to this topic

Stop crying please lol, keep it on topic, thank you.

Nothing to add to this excellent argumentation strategy
Fri 10 May 2019 8:21 AM by spell
Simple:

Increase pool by 25%
Remove conc cap.

That’s it.

Leave everything alone. Hib and Mids still have to run Spec AF charges.

Those 2 realms run 3 buffers, Alb runs 2.
Fri 10 May 2019 8:32 AM by Dindelion
This change will devaluate feathers quite heavily, I don't know if it's a good thing or not, but you need to keep this in mind, especially since in the first thread you wanted a solution that doesn't do that actually. I don't really know how you can replace that feathers sink without new items / new charges, things that nobody wants. We might be overflowing with feathers quickly. (I hate epic dungeon so I personally don't care)

Also one good thing with the current system is you actually have to make choices with charges you pop out (hence why far from everyone is running spec AF). If people don't value their time and prefere to wait 6min at PK to have 4 charges up for 3min, then cool for them but I don't think a lot of people actually do that. Recharge cost is the real problem with the current system imo.

I think a lot of people playing solo / smallman prefere having a few red buffs with current charges than all buffs having the same level but lower than red, especially for key stats like acuity or quickness.

Still, kudos for giving up the 20% resists charge.
Fri 10 May 2019 8:54 AM by sirmick
If I may offer a constructive suggestion to this post (we have a lot of gloom and doom here, and there's room for constructive criticism):

Changing spec AF/Acuity/DexQui/StrCon charges to the same value as combo potion: I know this may sound strange, but: just don't do this one thing. Do all of the other changes.

This allows people who WANT to min/max, farm up the items, go through the tedium of managing their 2 minute charges, and farm up the gold to use them constantly that minor, razor's edge of benefit, lets them stay happy with the characters they've carefully built and crafted and invested the time into specifically around the use of these items.

Meanwhile, people who don't want to do all that are still behind, but with the buff to combo pots, still highly competitive as the gap between them and the min/maxers closes significantly with the better combo potions. Additionally, it allows the charge items to retain their group value of being used after a combat rez, and the AF charges will still be highly valuable (but again, less essential) to Mids/Hibs.

With the proposed changes to self-buff spec lines (assuming they buff for 1.25x delve after the changes and are scaled up to 75 delve at 50 spec like how Thanes have it), speccing high in PF/BC/etc will become slightly more attractive, since you can either sacrifice from other lines heavily to get a further stat increase than even the 75 charges offer, or you can spec moderately and get a similar effect as the charges without having to use the charges, offering up additional opportunities to use DA/heal /use items in your rotation.

As with the previous suggested system changes, this one has a lot of good and one point of severe pushback (and, for good reason). Implement the other changes, but keep charge items the way they are.

Edit: minor text fixes and added a thing about self-buff lines.
Fri 10 May 2019 9:54 AM by Erok
Though this isn't as bad as originally posted, this is still nerfing solos and small mans that are not running primary buffers. You are essentially forcing people to play in groups if they want to have a shot at competing in every fight they encounter. Yes I realize true 1v1 will not be affected, but honestly how often does that occur? As mainly a solo player, I can foresee these changes being a lot less fun for me.

Edit: after reading the above post I could concur as being a better change. Allow the people who want to get the full benefit of the charges and items that they have been running to most effectively play solo continue to do so, whilst allowing those who aren't as competitive still compete with the combined pots.
Fri 10 May 2019 9:56 AM by filbert
It might just be me but saying handing over the spec af buff to other realms isn’t doing a difference it isn’t true.

First of all - you place it classes who isn’t the primary buffers = they will always have massive conc leftover for the spec af... cleric still have to buff specs and bases.

Second of all - you're giving away a free "charge timer" to the realms, that they before used to get spec af.
The people who before had problems/issues with running all the charges decided to do so themselves...

We can always discuss how much it is, but simply saying it’s not changing anything due to the fact they already were able to charge spec af isn’t true.

The only thing I see as real improvement is that you add to the conc pool.
Fri 10 May 2019 11:04 AM by CsCDK
Why not copy and paste all classes to all realms, then its the same for all...

Daoc has always been about 3 different realms, with different classes and ways they worked at least in 1.65. Please keep it like that else it will not be Daoc.

Still think removing those silly pots will be the best solution.
Fri 10 May 2019 11:05 AM by Warlay
nice you did it just like this... dont know if i go on to play
Fri 10 May 2019 11:15 AM by Pbuck
So, now that you moved on to that hasty change without taking into consideration the effect on different classes, as a mostly solo minstrel I would like to ask you :
1) What was the reasoning for scouts losing 18 dex/con/str and 25 quickness and receiving no buffs to counteract this huge nerf, when at the SAME time there is a 26 page thread about how weak archers( and therefore scouts) are ?
2) Where is the free race respec for shadowblades who are now forced to respec into kobolds to hit the 250 quickness cap?

Minstrels weren't really hit by the nerf as hard as the above classes ( shouts remain the same in dmg), but the issue remains. You rushed a huge buff change, that throws some classes into the gutter, classes which weren't particularly strong/op to begin with, and didn't take any time to think of the consequences of your actions. Wouldn't surprise me if some people quit over this, and why shouldn't they?It does feel like a slap in the face, and an undeserved one.
Fri 10 May 2019 11:33 AM by Mavella
Good to see 70+ combined pages of discussion are tossed in the garbage without a community vote. Great job devs.

Guess I better go invest in some legion hearts. Great.
Fri 10 May 2019 11:34 AM by Ceen
Why is the int buff only 42 instead of 50 like S/C D/Q...
Fri 10 May 2019 11:38 AM by keen
Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 11:34 AM
Why is the int buff only 42 instead of 50 like S/C D/Q...
Should be 50 like other spec charges, maybe it got lost in translation. Guess will be fixed.
Fri 10 May 2019 11:46 AM by Saroi
Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 11:34 AM
Why is the int buff only 42 instead of 50 like S/C D/Q...

Probably because of the buff(from classes) to buff potion delve. Acuity buffs from Shaman/Druid/Cleric are 52(Well they buffed it now so not sure how high it is). Having a 50 acuity from potion would make only str/con and dex/quick have a more stat loss.
Fri 10 May 2019 11:48 AM by Ceen
Saroi wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 11:46 AM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 11:34 AM
Why is the int buff only 42 instead of 50 like S/C D/Q...

Probably because of the buff(from classes) to buff potion delve. Acuity buffs from Shaman/Druid/Cleric are 52(Well they buffed it now so not sure how high it is). Having a 50 acuity from potion would make only str/con and dex/quick have a more stat loss.
They increased the buff value for acuity.

So now every melee got his buffed stats reduced to
melee = 101/83 = 82 %
while caster
caster = 42/75 = 56 %

and the -18 dex for cast speed hurts way more than 18 quickness for melee swing speed.
Fri 10 May 2019 11:52 AM by jwalker
Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 11:48 AM
Saroi wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 11:46 AM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 11:34 AM
Why is the int buff only 42 instead of 50 like S/C D/Q...

Probably because of the buff(from classes) to buff potion delve. Acuity buffs from Shaman/Druid/Cleric are 52(Well they buffed it now so not sure how high it is). Having a 50 acuity from potion would make only str/con and dex/quick have a more stat loss.
They increased the buff value for acuity.

So now every melee got his buffed stats reduced to
melee = 101/83 = 82 %
while caster
caster = 42/75 = 56 %

and the -18 dex for cast speed hurts way more than 18 quickness for melee swing speed.

25 quickness ...
Fri 10 May 2019 12:06 PM by Yokahu
What!! The changes went live already?! So exciting, see you all out there tonight... stuck at work for 9 more hours
Fri 10 May 2019 12:08 PM by Xaneb87
Great change. Finally no more juggling around with those timers. Charge items are worthless now but I don't care. They served their purpose.
Fri 10 May 2019 12:09 PM by labra
Does the d/q selfbuff on friar remain the same (69 delve) or is it up to 75 delve?
Fri 10 May 2019 12:30 PM by Mauriac
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 11:33 AM
Good to see 70+ combined pages of discussion are tossed in the garbage without a community vote. Great job devs.

Guess I better go invest in some legion hearts. Great.

I'm just gonna move on to other games. Not going to support a server where the dev starts to resemble the team at Uth with their asinine changes. Was fun for a while though. Best 4 month daoc experience I've ever had so I appreciate them for that cause a lot of work went into this project. This is just another slap in the face though so I'm done.
Fri 10 May 2019 12:39 PM by dstrmberg
Nice job devs! Looking forward to try this out tonight.

Any news on giving out respecs (race/startingstat/skill/RA) wrt this change?
Fri 10 May 2019 12:53 PM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:30 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 11:33 AM
Good to see 70+ combined pages of discussion are tossed in the garbage without a community vote. Great job devs.

Guess I better go invest in some legion hearts. Great.

I'm just gonna move on to other games. Not going to support a server where the dev starts to resemble the team at Uth with their asinine changes. Was fun for a while though. Best 4 month daoc experience I've ever had so I appreciate them for that cause a lot of work went into this project. This is just another slap in the face though so I'm done.

Thank god.. Appreciate the devs for this forum change QoL
Fri 10 May 2019 12:58 PM by Warlay
when does genesis restart ? im really mad about this and dont know if i should log on
Fri 10 May 2019 12:58 PM by dbeattie71
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:30 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 11:33 AM
Good to see 70+ combined pages of discussion are tossed in the garbage without a community vote. Great job devs.

Guess I better go invest in some legion hearts. Great.

I'm just gonna move on to other games. Not going to support a server where the dev starts to resemble the team at Uth with their asinine changes. Was fun for a while though. Best 4 month daoc experience I've ever had so I appreciate them for that cause a lot of work went into this project. This is just another slap in the face though so I'm done.

Any free stuff?
Fri 10 May 2019 12:59 PM by Mauriac
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:58 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:30 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 11:33 AM
Good to see 70+ combined pages of discussion are tossed in the garbage without a community vote. Great job devs.

Guess I better go invest in some legion hearts. Great.

I'm just gonna move on to other games. Not going to support a server where the dev starts to resemble the team at Uth with their asinine changes. Was fun for a while though. Best 4 month daoc experience I've ever had so I appreciate them for that cause a lot of work went into this project. This is just another slap in the face though so I'm done.

Any free stuff?

No. Go earn it yourself. You might even get lucky and not have the items and your class nerfed by the dev team but somehow I doubt that
Fri 10 May 2019 1:00 PM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:53 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:30 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 11:33 AM
Good to see 70+ combined pages of discussion are tossed in the garbage without a community vote. Great job devs.

Guess I better go invest in some legion hearts. Great.

I'm just gonna move on to other games. Not going to support a server where the dev starts to resemble the team at Uth with their asinine changes. Was fun for a while though. Best 4 month daoc experience I've ever had so I appreciate them for that cause a lot of work went into this project. This is just another slap in the face though so I'm done.

Thank god.. Appreciate the devs for this forum change QoL

So much irony here
Fri 10 May 2019 1:02 PM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:00 PM
I bet you play league of legends too

No not a fan of LoL but I do play HotS
Master Probius player here
Fri 10 May 2019 1:05 PM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:02 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:00 PM
I bet you play league of legends too

No not a fan of LoL but I do play HotS

Your quote just seemed really ironic to me. Kind of like something a league player would say. I'm not sure why people on a server with a dwindling population would cheer at the prospect of a change that they may like but, will further reduce that servers population. That seems like a loop towards playing in a sandbox alone.
Fri 10 May 2019 1:08 PM by Sepplord
Best 4month of daoc someone ever had, but this change makes it completely unplayable and paper daoc is always right. dramatic exit

mindboggling
Fri 10 May 2019 1:08 PM by dbeattie71
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:59 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:58 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:30 PM
I'm just gonna move on to other games. Not going to support a server where the dev starts to resemble the team at Uth with their asinine changes. Was fun for a while though. Best 4 month daoc experience I've ever had so I appreciate them for that cause a lot of work went into this project. This is just another slap in the face though so I'm done.

Any free stuff?

No. Go earn it yourself. You might even get lucky and not have the items and your class nerfed by the dev team but somehow I doubt that

I lost stats but am still out there, use tactics and skill to win.
Fri 10 May 2019 1:12 PM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:05 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:02 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:00 PM
I bet you play league of legends too

No not a fan of LoL but I do play HotS

Your quote just seemed really ironic to me. Kind of like something a league player would say. I'm not sure why people on a server with a dwindling population would cheer at the prospect of a change that they may like but, will further reduce that servers population. That seems like a loop towards playing in a sandbox alone.

It's a very general buff to casual players.. I like that.. I felt charges were a niche elitest idea.. DAoC has the worst buff system of any game I've played.. I love it but hate how much it seperates the game...

If DAoC never had stat buffs and was balanced by the class skills/abilities alone it would be near perfect
Fri 10 May 2019 1:14 PM by Mauriac
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:08 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:59 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:58 PM
Any free stuff?

No. Go earn it yourself. You might even get lucky and not have the items and your class nerfed by the dev team but somehow I doubt that

I lost stats but am still out there, use tactics and skill to win.

Omg. Dude I like you but seriously, just stfu with that.

There are no tactics are skill that make up for a flat across the board nerf to raw damage, hp pool, defense and swing speed. And don't even try to come at me with this "but everyone lost the same stats" because no they didn't.

Luris didn't lose evade or swing speed with this. Brits lost a little and Norse lose a lot. Norse SBs also lose more raw hp from this than our counterparts. I've explained this at least three times in this thread how this change affects certain races and classes more than others because of where the breakpoints are for certain stats. Go read that before writing some nonsensical shit like you just did.

Edit: I sincerely hope you still have fun though. This pisses me off but that doesn't mean you don't have to like the changes. If you're ok with them then by all means continue enjoying the server. I don't like the changes so I'll find something else. Cheers m8. Was fun playing against you
Fri 10 May 2019 1:15 PM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:12 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:05 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:02 PM
No not a fan of LoL but I do play HotS

Your quote just seemed really ironic to me. Kind of like something a league player would say. I'm not sure why people on a server with a dwindling population would cheer at the prospect of a change that they may like but, will further reduce that servers population. That seems like a loop towards playing in a sandbox alone.

It's a very general buff to casual players.. I like that.. I felt charges were a niche elitest idea.. DAoC has the worst buff system of any game I've played.. I love it but hate how much it seperates the game...

If DAoC never had stat buffs and was balanced by the class skills/abilities alone it would be near perfect

I completely agree. But as I've said before, this is a balance change more than a qol change which is why I don't like it
Fri 10 May 2019 1:24 PM by Sepplord
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:05 PM
Your quote just seemed really ironic to me. Kind of like something a league player would say. I'm not sure why people on a server with a dwindling population would cheer at the prospect of a change that they may like but, will further reduce that servers population. That seems like a loop towards playing in a sandbox alone.

Where's the proof that a few min/maxers leaving the server will hurt it overall?
Do you believe, that people like us that are farming noobs without them having a fighting chance is somehow good for the casual mass that keeps the server alive?
Letting people overtediously trade playtime (waiting at PKs to charge up/farming 25% of playtime for gold to facilitate that waiting) for in combat advantages is much more a loop towards playing in a sandbox alone.

Just like Elitist-8man-groups leaving a server not being a loss, the same applies to the handful hardcore min/max-soloers that roll over 99noobs before they meet one of their own

Do i get being upset? Being butthurt for a few days? Voicing complaints...yes i get it. I've done it too, and i have also expressed the things i don't like about the change. But leaving the server without even looking at how it works out? ... nope
Fri 10 May 2019 1:42 PM by playtester99
Not sure how anyone could think the devs want this server to be 8v8 and zerg only with this change. You just fucked over every cleric and druid in a caster group, great job. Those buff charges were the only way to run a nature/cure nearsight druid, 25% more conc isn't compensation. A caster group would charge acuity, spec af and s/c or d/q on several people already. What are you supposed to do now? Are Hibs supposed to run a Warden so the bard has the conc to buff spec af instead of using a gimped charge? Are Albs supposed to run a Friar? This is so poorly thought out it boggles my mind.

S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
Fri 10 May 2019 1:47 PM by PingGuy
Likely situation before the change:

I run out on my Warden, without any buff pots or charges. Killed by assassin.

Likely situation after the change:

I run out on my Warden, with a combined forces pot. Killed by assassin.


It's a good change, the loss of stats isn't going to make it any harder for a SB to kill the visi's that will be running around. Think of it as a slight loss for yourself, as a trade-off for incentivizing your juiciest potential targets to come out to play.
Fri 10 May 2019 1:50 PM by dbeattie71
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:47 PM
Likely situation before the change:

I run out on my Warden, without any buff pots or charges. Killed by assassin.

Likely situation after the change:

I run out on my Warden, with a combined forces pot. Killed by assassin.


It's a good change, the loss of stats isn't going to make it any harder for a SB to kill the visi's that will be running around. Think of it as a slight loss for yourself, as a trade-off for incentivizing your juiciest potential targets to come out to play.

But it might take 1.5s for them to kill you instead of 1s.
Fri 10 May 2019 1:52 PM by Mauriac
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:24 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:05 PM
Your quote just seemed really ironic to me. Kind of like something a league player would say. I'm not sure why people on a server with a dwindling population would cheer at the prospect of a change that they may like but, will further reduce that servers population. That seems like a loop towards playing in a sandbox alone.

Where's the proof that a few min/maxers leaving the server will hurt it overall?
Do you believe, that people like us that are farming noobs without them having a fighting chance is somehow good for the casual mass that keeps the server alive?
Letting people overtediously trade playtime (waiting at PKs to charge up/farming 25% of playtime for gold to facilitate that waiting) for in combat advantages is much more a loop towards playing in a sandbox alone.

Just like Elitist-8man-groups leaving a server not being a loss, the same applies to the handful hardcore min/max-soloers that roll over 99noobs before they meet one of their own

Do i get being upset? Being butthurt for a few days? Voicing complaints...yes i get it. I've done it too, and i have also expressed the things i don't like about the change. But leaving the server without even looking at how it works out? ... nope

Or we could have done the easy fix and make recharging cost 2 gold not 10. Wouldn't have affected balance at all and require basically no farming. Consider that?
Fri 10 May 2019 1:55 PM by Sepplord
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:52 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:24 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:05 PM
Your quote just seemed really ironic to me. Kind of like something a league player would say. I'm not sure why people on a server with a dwindling population would cheer at the prospect of a change that they may like but, will further reduce that servers population. That seems like a loop towards playing in a sandbox alone.

Where's the proof that a few min/maxers leaving the server will hurt it overall?
Do you believe, that people like us that are farming noobs without them having a fighting chance is somehow good for the casual mass that keeps the server alive?
Letting people overtediously trade playtime (waiting at PKs to charge up/farming 25% of playtime for gold to facilitate that waiting) for in combat advantages is much more a loop towards playing in a sandbox alone.

Just like Elitist-8man-groups leaving a server not being a loss, the same applies to the handful hardcore min/max-soloers that roll over 99noobs before they meet one of their own

Do i get being upset? Being butthurt for a few days? Voicing complaints...yes i get it. I've done it too, and i have also expressed the things i don't like about the change. But leaving the server without even looking at how it works out? ... nope

Or we could have done the easy fix and make recharging cost 2 gold not 10. Wouldn't have affected balance at all and require basically no farming. Consider that?

If i have considered that? Yes, ofcourse. That proposal has been made a myriad of times, and the answer was always the same: it doesn't change a single thing about the tedious gameplay loop of charge-waiting. You know, the point you intentionally ignored when making your smartass comment instead of leaving like you promised to

I agree that it would have been easy, it wouldn't have been a fix though
Fri 10 May 2019 2:02 PM by Mauriac
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:55 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:52 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:24 PM
Where's the proof that a few min/maxers leaving the server will hurt it overall?
Do you believe, that people like us that are farming noobs without them having a fighting chance is somehow good for the casual mass that keeps the server alive?
Letting people overtediously trade playtime (waiting at PKs to charge up/farming 25% of playtime for gold to facilitate that waiting) for in combat advantages is much more a loop towards playing in a sandbox alone.

Just like Elitist-8man-groups leaving a server not being a loss, the same applies to the handful hardcore min/max-soloers that roll over 99noobs before they meet one of their own

Do i get being upset? Being butthurt for a few days? Voicing complaints...yes i get it. I've done it too, and i have also expressed the things i don't like about the change. But leaving the server without even looking at how it works out? ... nope

Or we could have done the easy fix and make recharging cost 2 gold not 10. Wouldn't have affected balance at all and require basically no farming. Consider that?

If i have considered that? Yes, ofcourse. That proposal has been made a myriad of times, and the answer was always the same: it doesn't change a single thing about the tedious gameplay loop of charge-waiting. You know, the point you intentionally ignored when making your smartass comment instead of leaving like you promised to

I agree that it would have been easy, it wouldn't have been a fix though

I just don't see how you think this is a fix. Charge juggling still exists. It's just mid fight now not prefight. And SBs just got weaker vs our primary opponents. Why the fuck would I cheer that situation on? It may very well be a good thing for casuals. But people won't return over this, but people will leave. That's not good overall long term.

And being on the forums doesn't mean I'm not gone. I removed the game as soon as I saw this bullshit go through. I have small hopes they will reverse course but something tells me they're as obstinate as blue was so in my opinion they will likely get the same outcome and deserve it
Fri 10 May 2019 2:06 PM by Mauriac
playtester99 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:42 PM
Not sure how anyone could think the devs want this server to be 8v8 and zerg only with this change. You just fucked over every cleric and druid in a caster group, great job. Those buff charges were the only way to run a nature/cure nearsight druid, 25% more conc isn't compensation. A caster group would charge acuity, spec af and s/c or d/q on several people already. What are you supposed to do now? Are Hibs supposed to run a Warden so the bard has the conc to buff spec af instead of using a gimped charge? Are Albs supposed to run a Friar? This is so poorly thought out it boggles my mind.

S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.
S T O P L I S T E N I N G T O T A N K O N L Y P L A Y E R S.

You think they spent more than zero seconds to consider the balance implications of this? That's adorable if you did
Fri 10 May 2019 2:07 PM by cere2
Great change. Glad it is in game.
Fri 10 May 2019 2:21 PM by Sepplord
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 2:02 PM
I just don't see how you think this is a fix. Charge juggling still exists. It's just mid fight now not prefight. And SBs just got weaker vs our primary opponents. Why the fuck would I cheer that situation on? It may very well be a good thing for casuals. But people won't return over this, but people will leave. That's not good overall long term.

And being on the forums doesn't mean I'm not gone. I removed the game as soon as I saw this bullshit go through. I have small hopes they will reverse course but something tells me they're as obstinate as blue was so in my opinion they will likely get the same outcome and deserve it

It is a fix to juggling. There's no reason anymore to wait at PK for multiple charge timers. You can use a single charge in combat, yeah....how is that juggling?
The tediousness of charges definitely is fixed. A min/max SB is nerfed a bit more than a min/max NS, but for the overall mass this change will be a huge QOL buff, despite (i agree there with you) it also changing the balance of some classes/matchups.

But people won't return over this, but people will leave.
That somehow implies that the average casual playerbase has already left and won't come back. The thing is, they are still here, and the change probably helps keeping it that way. I gladly lose a few more fights VS min/maxed NS (i lose vs those anyways unless RNG gods shine upon me) if that means that i get to play on a populated server for a month longer


What would be really intresting were stats about the population, how many players regularly charged 3buffs. How many didn't charge at all. How many didn't even Buffpot at all (yes those exist too ). Like someone else said before, maybe these more efficient buffpots will make more people use them and run out into RvR instead of not bothering at all since they'll get farmed by the charge-people anyways. (they will still get beaten up by min/maxers because of several other reasons, but they will be in RvR instead of chatting in the capital)
Fri 10 May 2019 2:29 PM by Mauriac
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 2:21 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 2:02 PM
I just don't see how you think this is a fix. Charge juggling still exists. It's just mid fight now not prefight. And SBs just got weaker vs our primary opponents. Why the fuck would I cheer that situation on? It may very well be a good thing for casuals. But people won't return over this, but people will leave. That's not good overall long term.

And being on the forums doesn't mean I'm not gone. I removed the game as soon as I saw this bullshit go through. I have small hopes they will reverse course but something tells me they're as obstinate as blue was so in my opinion they will likely get the same outcome and deserve it

It is a fix to juggling. There's no reason anymore to wait at PK for multiple charge timers. You can use a single charge in combat, yeah....how is that juggling?
The tediousness of charges definitely is fixed. A min/max SB is nerfed a bit more than a min/max NS, but for the overall mass this change will be a huge QOL buff, despite (i agree there with you) it also changing the balance of some classes/matchups.

But people won't return over this, but people will leave.
That somehow implies that the average casual playerbase has already left and won't come back. The thing is, they are still here, and the change probably helps keeping it that way. I gladly lose a few more fights VS min/maxed NS (i lose vs those anyways unless RNG gods shine upon me) if that means that i get to play on a populated server for a month longer


What would be really intresting were stats about the population, how many players regularly charged 3buffs. How many didn't charge at all. How many didn't even Buffpot at all (yes those exist too ). Like someone else said before, maybe these more efficient buffpots will make more people use them and run out into RvR instead of not bothering at all since they'll get farmed by the charge-people anyways. (they will still get beaten up by min/maxers because of several other reasons, but they will be in RvR instead of chatting in the capital)

Well I'm glad you like the changes. I hope you continue to enjoy them. Not every change can make everyone happy though. I got the short end of the stick this time so sucks for me.
Fri 10 May 2019 2:50 PM by tweedledumb99
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:53 PM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:54 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:47 AM
Are you a moron? Aotg 2 12 dps damage add charge 11.3 dps. IP2 25% heal heal pot plus legion charge for 500~ hp average full buffed hp is what 1500-1750? These are extremely strong abilities on 10-15 minute cooldown and we're proposing making then available every 2 minutes. Having to full buff with charges curbed how often these broken charges were usable and their impact overall. I've beaten people without my spec af up when they did. I won't beat they same person if they can pop a 500hp heal or 11.3dps damage add and I can't. That's the fucking point.

The stat nerf sucks because it's completely unnecessary.

Also great job flexing on an heavy tanked specced to solo. If you lost to a stealther with moose and IP up you should probably uninstall. No one cares.

Who's proposing ip2 on a 2minute timer? Heal pot alrdy available every 1 minute. Legion heal charge also nerfed if diseased, so not like IP.

Everyone will have these available to them so why is it a problem.

[[This section @Mavella and Florin]] Also, what stealther fight are you talking about? Yes I'm saying come fight me cause florin is acting like an entitled whiny senseless jackass and I want to fight him in game. Edit: @Florin Ill even not use IP or Moose, cause mavella says theyre unfair. Ill add that to slam that you dont want me using. Itd be unfair for me to use block reactionaries too, clearly, would just be flexing on a tank specd for solo. Also no engage, clearly way too OP. No strcon debuff because thats just a symptom of the "catastrophic destruction of daoc" being proposed with this patch! And scale armor w 27% absorb, holy shit talk about OP! Too much tank flexing, better take that chest armour off. Come find me, Florin, w my no weapons, no shield, no chest armor, no moose, no IP, no celtic spear or lw, no debuff charges, and with your vanish up and we'll have ourselves a fair fight like Mavella wants.]]

How are you so badly missing the point and just not understanding things?

So many people just complain about any change to the game, seriously, it's not my or anyone elses responsibility to give you the attention you're craving, stop whining ffs.

you need help

great comeback
Fri 10 May 2019 3:45 PM by Draygon
Id like to mirror the thoughts of many in this thread and say these changes were not very well thought out and ended up screwing over the primary healing classes and those that mained them. It has also made many feather items useless, which makes players feel like you (the Devs) didnt care about the time and effort that was put in to getting 100k or more feathers.

Also, in case you havent noticed by now the numbers are dropping on the server and this change has made it so that more players are wanting to quit because it wasnt a needed or wanted QoL change.

A good QoL change would be to add in a arena for solo or duo players, so that we/they could actually play the game and not get ran over by 8+ people. That would go a long way to making many happy.
Fri 10 May 2019 3:51 PM by Bumbles
This server will just become Uthgard v3.0. The crazy German Devs will just have these insane ideas that they feel are great and will fall flat and cause the population to dwindle away.
Fri 10 May 2019 3:59 PM by cere2
Draygon wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 3:45 PM
Id like to mirror the thoughts of many in this thread and say these changes were not very well thought out and ended up screwing over the primary healing classes and those that mained them. It has also made many feather items useless, which makes players feel like you (the Devs) didnt care about the time and effort that was put in to getting 100k or more feathers.

Also, in case you havent noticed by now the numbers are dropping on the server and this change has made it so that more players are wanting to quit because it wasnt a needed or wanted QoL change.

A good QoL change would be to add in a arena for solo or duo players, so that we/they could actually play the game and not get ran over by 8+ people. That would go a long way to making many happy.

They were just implemented. So you know the population drop from yesterday to today?
Please inform us of the exact numbers of players that /quit due to this change?
Also, could you include in your findings along with the statistical data, if any players came back because of these changes in this same time period?
That way we could know the exact pro's/con's of this change over the period of.....one day.
That would be awesome.
Fri 10 May 2019 4:01 PM by dbeattie71
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:14 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 1:08 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:59 PM
No. Go earn it yourself. You might even get lucky and not have the items and your class nerfed by the dev team but somehow I doubt that

I lost stats but am still out there, use tactics and skill to win.

Omg. Dude I like you but seriously, just stfu with that.

There are no tactics are skill that make up for a flat across the board nerf to raw damage, hp pool, defense and swing speed. And don't even try to come at me with this "but everyone lost the same stats" because no they didn't.

Luris didn't lose evade or swing speed with this. Brits lost a little and Norse lose a lot. Norse SBs also lose more raw hp from this than our counterparts. I've explained this at least three times in this thread how this change affects certain races and classes more than others because of where the breakpoints are for certain stats. Go read that before writing some nonsensical shit like you just did.

Edit: I sincerely hope you still have fun though. This pisses me off but that doesn't mean you don't have to like the changes. If you're ok with them then by all means continue enjoying the server. I don't like the changes so I'll find something else. Cheers m8. Was fun playing against you

Haduri is still pwning ppl, all is not lost.
Fri 10 May 2019 4:07 PM by Onnit
Master plan from the Phoenix GMs, all the cry babies will now quit and allow us to enjoy the server more. Thank you
Fri 10 May 2019 4:08 PM by Mavella
A r10 that can now pop 11.3 dps DA every fight is farming people. You don't say. :
Fri 10 May 2019 4:08 PM by filbert
and it still isn’t the 1st of April

I don’t get it... so many complaining about the first thread so now you just go on doing what you think is right instead of involving the playerbase - I guess a vote is hard to do.

You changed the balance in this game way more than you think with this patch and it seems like you don't even care.

It's not like the melee groups isn’t favored here already... the melee hit range is totally out of
proportions...

The buff nerfs will hurt the damage output on casters way more than melee – they lost both dex and acu.

A lot of people used sh*tloads of time to optimize their toons – that goes for race, start specs, farming items and bothering using charging items… these have been utterly screwed here.

To be honest – I still think the worst part here is that you just go ahead doing it like it doesn’t matter. Have you even looked at what it does to the game? I get it some people think using charges is a pain, but this is going way too far to please those.
Fri 10 May 2019 4:33 PM by Onnit
Don’t worry guys Uthgard still open
Fri 10 May 2019 4:54 PM by chois
back from work... log in daoc.... new buffs ..... log scout ton... lost 0.5 on each fire bow, 12% blok rate, scout friends we can keep this toon in the vaultkeeper....
Fri 10 May 2019 5:03 PM by Mauriac
cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 3:59 PM
Draygon wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 3:45 PM
Id like to mirror the thoughts of many in this thread and say these changes were not very well thought out and ended up screwing over the primary healing classes and those that mained them. It has also made many feather items useless, which makes players feel like you (the Devs) didnt care about the time and effort that was put in to getting 100k or more feathers.

Also, in case you havent noticed by now the numbers are dropping on the server and this change has made it so that more players are wanting to quit because it wasnt a needed or wanted QoL change.

A good QoL change would be to add in a arena for solo or duo players, so that we/they could actually play the game and not get ran over by 8+ people. That would go a long way to making many happy.

They were just implemented. So you know the population drop from yesterday to today?
Please inform us of the exact numbers of players that /quit due to this change?
Also, could you include in your findings along with the statistical data, if any players came back because of these changes in this same time period?
That way we could know the exact pro's/con's of this change over the period of.....one day.
That would be awesome.

You must think you're very smart by asking this question. You do realize that populations are generally analyzed by trends right? IE if you really want to see the effect you need to calculate the population drop trend line from release to yesterday. Then gather a few weeks of data from today to that point and recalculate the trendline to see the variance between to two. OR you could just poll the entire server or a "statistically relevant sample size" which would be hard to do since it's difficult if not impossible to quantify the difference between casual and hardcore players, and then examine their responses to see the results. Though I doubt you actually thought this through, now that I've given you the methodology you know full well that no one is going to bother to do it. You won't, I won't, and no one else will. The closest anyone will come is going to Google and searching daoc Phoenix population and examining the graphs that come up and get to their own determination. Or maybe it will be obvious enough on its own in time. Guess we will see
Fri 10 May 2019 5:16 PM by Draygon
chois wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 4:54 PM
back from work... log in daoc.... new buffs ..... log scout ton... lost 0.5 on each fire bow, 12% blok rate, scout friends we can keep this toon in the vaultkeeper....

Scouts have been the worst of the 3 archer classes for quite some time now, the Devs have said they were looking at buffing archers and I had hope of that, then this happened. You are correct that scouts are really bad now, Id argue though that almost all ranged classes are with the nerfs to casters as well.
Fri 10 May 2019 5:32 PM by tweedledumb99
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 4:08 PM
A r10 that can now pop 11.3 dps DA every fight is farming people. You don't say. :

Ppl who can str con debuff him every fight...
Fri 10 May 2019 5:33 PM by tweedledumb99
chois wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 4:54 PM
back from work... log in daoc.... new buffs ..... log scout ton... lost 0.5 on each fire bow, 12% blok rate, scout friends we can keep this toon in the vaultkeeper....

You lost 12% block rate from 17 dex against targets who lost 17dex/str? Pics or its a lie.
Fri 10 May 2019 5:35 PM by Roto23
Does anyone know if the value on the d\q draught will match the value on the combined forces pot? And how much that is?
Fri 10 May 2019 5:37 PM by Mavella
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 5:32 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 4:08 PM
A r10 that can now pop 11.3 dps DA every fight is farming people. You don't say. :

Ppl who can str con debuff him every fight...

So he can run viper 5 for a 13.3dps dmg add on top of his normal poison and pop his /use DA every fight. Who cares what his strength is in that situation. Oh and now everyone has lower hp making it even more effective.

This is what you all asked for. Reap what you sow idiots.
Fri 10 May 2019 6:03 PM by cere2
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 5:03 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 3:59 PM
Draygon wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 3:45 PM
Id like to mirror the thoughts of many in this thread and say these changes were not very well thought out and ended up screwing over the primary healing classes and those that mained them. It has also made many feather items useless, which makes players feel like you (the Devs) didnt care about the time and effort that was put in to getting 100k or more feathers.

Also, in case you havent noticed by now the numbers are dropping on the server and this change has made it so that more players are wanting to quit because it wasnt a needed or wanted QoL change.

A good QoL change would be to add in a arena for solo or duo players, so that we/they could actually play the game and not get ran over by 8+ people. That would go a long way to making many happy.

They were just implemented. So you know the population drop from yesterday to today?
Please inform us of the exact numbers of players that /quit due to this change?
Also, could you include in your findings along with the statistical data, if any players came back because of these changes in this same time period?
That way we could know the exact pro's/con's of this change over the period of.....one day.
That would be awesome.

You must think you're very smart by asking this question. You do realize that populations are generally analyzed by trends right? IE if you really want to see the effect you need to calculate the population drop trend line from release to yesterday. Then gather a few weeks of data from today to that point and recalculate the trendline to see the variance between to two. OR you could just poll the entire server or a "statistically relevant sample size" which would be hard to do since it's difficult if not impossible to quantify the difference between casual and hardcore players, and then examine their responses to see the results. Though I doubt you actually thought this through, now that I've given you the methodology you know full well that no one is going to bother to do it. You won't, I won't, and no one else will. The closest anyone will come is going to Google and searching daoc Phoenix population and examining the graphs that come up and get to their own determination. Or maybe it will be obvious enough on its own in time. Guess we will see

(Affected)
Only point I was making is that claiming people are leaving already after this just went into effect is dumb.
Fri 10 May 2019 6:10 PM by Nogrod
Well when Dev start to make unnecessary stupid change it's time to leave!
thx guys had some fun here
Fri 10 May 2019 6:20 PM by Eldoktor
Nogrod wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 6:10 PM
Well when Dev start to make unnecessary stupid change it's time to leave!
thx guys had some fun here

Well it's the exact thing most people are thinking right now
Dev are doing bullshit the last 2 or 3 patchs....

Server will go low pop soon.
Fri 10 May 2019 6:22 PM by Roto23
Nogrod wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 6:10 PM
Well when Dev start to make unnecessary stupid change it's time to leave!
thx guys had some fun here

Can i have your stuff?
Fri 10 May 2019 6:23 PM by Warlay
i speak with a lot of ppl ingame and dont know so many want to quit now, it is really sad to see.... i also dont want to spec viper 5 and use charges like on live. its not my playstyle. i guess you dont want such ppl.
then i wish you have fun with your soon empty server
Fri 10 May 2019 6:27 PM by Seal
Warlay wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 6:23 PM
i speak with a lot of ppl ingame and dont know so many want to quit now, it is really sad to see.... i also dont want to spec viper 5 and use charges like on live. its not my playstyle. i guess you dont want such ppl.
then i wish you have fun with your soon empty server

now that we became buddies u wanna leave ? give it time, stuff may change im kinda curious to see what will be the new trend
Fri 10 May 2019 6:32 PM by Warlay
of course i will give it a bit time but its hard to accept
Fri 10 May 2019 6:57 PM by chois
nice up for ranger and hunter (lesser but a good point), take Moa 7 and u will have 99.6 in all stats (close to 101 as before). But they dont up your spec buff line, seems logic.... when infi, sb, ns, scout have to spend lot of ra pts just to clog the gap
Fri 10 May 2019 7:01 PM by tweedledumb99
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 5:37 PM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 5:32 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 4:08 PM
A r10 that can now pop 11.3 dps DA every fight is farming people. You don't say. :

Ppl who can str con debuff him every fight...

So he can run viper 5 for a 13.3dps dmg add on top of his normal poison and pop his /use DA every fight. Who cares what his strength is in that situation. Oh and now everyone has lower hp making it even more effective.

This is what you all asked for. Reap what you sow idiots.

You really dont want to see the point here, and clearly don't understand that this affects everyone pretty much equally (at least all melee classes). Not my problem.
Fri 10 May 2019 7:24 PM by Eldoktor
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:01 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 5:37 PM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 5:32 PM
Ppl who can str con debuff him every fight...

So he can run viper 5 for a 13.3dps dmg add on top of his normal poison and pop his /use DA every fight. Who cares what his strength is in that situation. Oh and now everyone has lower hp making it even more effective.

This is what you all asked for. Reap what you sow idiots.

You really dont want to see the point here, and clearly don't understand that this affects everyone pretty much equally (at least all melee classes). Not my problem.
it doesn't affect people equally :
Many people didn't make the effort to farm for charges items.
it's a big FCK OFF to people trying to be efficient !
it's just a free up for useless morons from the zerg
Fri 10 May 2019 7:32 PM by Yokahu
Eldoktor wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:24 PM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:01 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 5:37 PM
So he can run viper 5 for a 13.3dps dmg add on top of his normal poison and pop his /use DA every fight. Who cares what his strength is in that situation. Oh and now everyone has lower hp making it even more effective.

This is what you all asked for. Reap what you sow idiots.

You really dont want to see the point here, and clearly don't understand that this affects everyone pretty much equally (at least all melee classes). Not my problem.
it doesn't affect people equally :
Many people didn't make the effort to farm for charges items.
it's a big FCK OFF to people trying to be efficient !
it's just a free up for useless morons from the zerg

This levels the playing field for solo players, so skills now play a decisive factor in the fights.
Fri 10 May 2019 7:59 PM by Turano
gotta have to let that settle for a day or 2
maybe then I will find out why this server was fun playing on again
Fri 10 May 2019 8:18 PM by Monkies
I’m going to hold judgment on the overall impact of the changes until after I’ve played with them in place for a while. My concern with the change is more about the approach to the server. We beta tested the server under one RA ruleset, and one charge and buff item ruleset. When the game went live, the launch was with a completely different RA suite so all the beta testing efforts seemed wasted. Now we’re seeing a sweeping revamp of the buff and charge items. I can see tweaking things here and there but this seems like a pretty major change. Which probably means the pendulum will swing too far one way and have to be corrected again. And again and again and again. I’m all for updates and changes but my experience has taught me that in a complex system with many moving parts, make very small adjustments or you will quickly become lost.

Monkies/Dogbyte
Fri 10 May 2019 8:38 PM by Tyrlaan
Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 7:59 PM
gotta have to let that settle for a day or 2
maybe then I will find out why this server was fun playing on again

Yeah good time for a break and see how this plays out. It feels like too much of a custom change for a server (past beta phase) that wants to revive the old DAoC experience. This ain't just QoL, it's items, spell delves, max attributes attainable etc changed. Others can beta test it (und whatever future changes the devs come up with). At least it is less time lost than when live fucked up. Thanks for the reminiscence.
Fri 10 May 2019 9:56 PM by Vkejai
I agree a break maybe good , way to many changes since beta , was looking forward to a server with QoL , more hasteners , port stone , RA tweaks and a lot of other things which would make this place what Uthgard should and could have been .

I am a little concerned what sort of finished product we will get here. Every class I got to 50 or close here , I have either deleted or shelved due to some change . Makes me wonder what class I want to play lately.
Sat 11 May 2019 12:38 AM by relvinian
a free full respec and feathers refund on the charge items would help.
Sat 11 May 2019 12:46 AM by Dominus
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 8:38 PM
Yeah good time for a break and see how this plays out. It feels like too much of a custom change for a server (past beta phase) that wants to revive the old DAoC experience. This ain't just QoL, it's items, spell delves, max attributes attainable etc changed. Others can beta test it (und whatever future changes the devs come up with). At least it is less time lost than when live fucked up. Thanks for the reminiscence.

I guess you weren't here 2 weeks before end of beta when they rolled out the new RA's.. lol.
Sat 11 May 2019 1:22 AM by Citian
Thank you for a positive change devs.
Sat 11 May 2019 4:01 AM by Laston
I like this change although i still feel like all the self buffing classes should get some minor buff to compensate for everyone running with pot buffs but just removing charges is a nice change.

one thing im curious about though is i cant see a red con spec af buff when i try /train on my bard is there one and is the /train function just bugged or is 34 the highest one you can get?
Sat 11 May 2019 8:25 AM by Ferdi
the skill of a player is also having the patience to use many charges, with this patch you have mediocrised the players' playstyle
Sat 11 May 2019 12:50 PM by Singul
Onnit wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 4:07 PM
Master plan from the Phoenix GMs, all the cry babies will now quit and allow us to enjoy the server more. Thank you

Nice said!
Sat 11 May 2019 3:03 PM by Bradekes
Ferdi wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 8:25 AM
the skill of a player is also having the patience to use many charges, with this patch you have mediocrised the players' playstyle

You mean improved gameplay?? Why would you want extra crap that's a burden and could be easily remedied to allow more focus on enjoyment?? These people defending the micromanagement of charges must be a precursor to some mental disease I swear...
Sat 11 May 2019 3:28 PM by cere2
Nice to be able to roll back out like 1 minute after /release. Nice not to be paying 60g a death.
Sat 11 May 2019 4:59 PM by Mrdoctore
1 Week ago, i said to a friend : when a server has more infiltrator or shadowblade than cleric or healer, its turning slowly to sthing wrong, or a future dead server we could say.

Everyone can aggree that there are way too many stealthers compared to visible players, at least in rvr … and i have a ranger and a NS 50

We were wondering with friends about changes to make people play more visible players and groups and etc …. this makes a viable server ….
Actually i have to admit that its not easy to make changes to achieve the main goal. I didnt have the perfect idea ( nerfing solo xp ? increasing xp in group ? nerfing only stealthers so the fans of shadow will keep playing and the casual stealthers like me will probably stop and go back to usual classes ).

But THERE ….

You made the actual opposite.

In conclusion, you (phoenix team) want more stealthers, less groups (who cares about the 20 buff cap etc, groups can deal with that easily especially with potion and charges). So basically, you want to kill your own server because we all know that a server with tons of stealthers and less grps will die soon.

Am i wrong or the logic is ruined here ?
Sat 11 May 2019 5:10 PM by Doiri
Singul wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 12:50 PM
Onnit wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 4:07 PM
Master plan from the Phoenix GMs, all the cry babies will now quit and allow us to enjoy the server more. Thank you

Nice said!

you're either being sarcastic, or you genuinely think that the indisputably most braindead post in this whole thread is "nice".

"don't like it, don't play it! *smug face*"

yeah this has worked out great so many times in the history of gaming. Patrick Soderlund and other idiots say Hi.
Sat 11 May 2019 5:49 PM by Mauriac
Doiri wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 5:10 PM
Singul wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 12:50 PM
Onnit wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 4:07 PM
Master plan from the Phoenix GMs, all the cry babies will now quit and allow us to enjoy the server more. Thank you

Nice said!

you're either being sarcastic, or you genuinely think that the indisputably most braindead post in this whole thread is "nice".

"don't like it, don't play it! *smug face*"

yeah this has worked out great so many times in the history of gaming. Patrick Soderlund and other idiots say Hi.

It's all good bro. The kind of person who posts retarded shit like that is the same guy who would prefer playing circle jerk on the "perfect" server with 10 people rather than a server with a healthy population that caters to many playstyles. He's too busy fondling the devs to really notice what's going on anyway.
Sat 11 May 2019 6:04 PM by Laviski
Mrdoctore wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 4:59 PM
1 Week ago, i said to a friend : when a server has more infiltrator or shadowblade than cleric or healer, its turning slowly to sthing wrong, or a future dead server we could say.

Everyone can aggree that there are way too many stealthers compared to visible players, at least in rvr … and i have a ranger and a NS 50

We were wondering with friends about changes to make people play more visible players and groups and etc …. this makes a viable server ….
Actually i have to admit that its not easy to make changes to achieve the main goal. I didnt have the perfect idea ( nerfing solo xp ? increasing xp in group ? nerfing only stealthers so the fans of shadow will keep playing and the casual stealthers like me will probably stop and go back to usual classes ).

But THERE ….

You made the actual opposite.

In conclusion, you (phoenix team) want more stealthers, less groups (who cares about the 20 buff cap etc, groups can deal with that easily especially with potion and charges). So basically, you want to kill your own server because we all know that a server with tons of stealthers and less grps will die soon.

Am i wrong or the logic is ruined here ?

Changes to the healers bards and conc was a good idea.
Pots shouldn't have being changed nor the charges. As others have said the level of change is high since release with questionable decisions such as the porting and the rvr reward (all be it sorted once we saw rr4 rr5 under lvl 36)

All these change is not keeping to the patch they based the release on. Why not just bring in TOA and if while ye at it I'm sure loads would love to play warlocks and vamps.
Sat 11 May 2019 6:10 PM by Bradekes
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 9:56 PM
I agree a break maybe good , way to many changes since beta , was looking forward to a server with QoL , more hasteners , port stone , RA tweaks and a lot of other things which would make this place what Uthgard should and could have been .

I am a little concerned what sort of finished product we will get here. Every class I got to 50 or close here , I have either deleted or shelved due to some change . Makes me wonder what class I want to play lately.

So what class did you shelve because of the BG change?
Also which one did you shelve because of the buffpot changes?

Pretty sure you're just intimidated by 50rvr
Sat 11 May 2019 7:31 PM by Azrael
Why did you increase buffpotion value? It only encourage people running without a buffing class while making them stronger.
Sat 11 May 2019 9:59 PM by Bradekes
Azrael wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 7:31 PM
Why did you increase buffpotion value? It only encourage people running without a buffing class while making them stronger.

except the new buffed pots are weaker than the old buffpot + Charge? how does it encourage what you're suggesting? Also the new buff value is only 83 total.. 72 points from a buffers 155.. 53% of a buff class... Seems balanced to me...
Sat 11 May 2019 11:56 PM by LedriTheThane
cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 5:06 PM
Only people perhaps effected are smallman's that did not run with buffing class/healing class.
You might have won 3v3 if no one had healer/buffer before the changes....
18 more stats in a 3v3 or 4v4 in which only one party has a healer/buffer did not decide the outcome of the battle before the changes.
I would say this had the most affect on solo vs solo. Where those stats could actually make the difference. Especially if you had no spec AF charge up.

You were not winning solo vs a smallman before the changes, you won't be after.
You were not winning 3v8 before the changes, you won't be after.

I've won 2v1 and 3v1 a few times as a solo thane. Now, I won't be after.
Sun 12 May 2019 1:50 AM by paul_g
why punish the people that are okay with investing a little more time in the server to have a bit of an edge over someone who doesn't want to run charges?
#bringthemback
Sun 12 May 2019 2:21 AM by Freedomcall
Solo players already abaondoned s/c, d/q, af charges and instead, started to use ablatives and self-heal charges.
Those are charges solo players almost couldn't use before update becuz of RUT.
And you devs forced them to buy new charges and not giving any refund to useless s/c, d/q, af charges.

Do you think players using only combined pots will be able to win against players using alba/heal charges?
that is 150+230=380 value!

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:58 AM
The two main goals were and still are:
1) If you are grouped with a buffer you are buffed by the buffer and don't need to use any charges / potions except for maybe useless things like str on caster
2) If you are solo / small man without a buffer, you use the combined buff potion and are done

If this is your true and faithful goal, remove ablative/heal charges too.
If you don't, I just can't think but you are lying, or you don't even know what you are talking about....
Sun 12 May 2019 3:31 AM by Trisha2019
All these changes are NOT healthy. Nerfing everything - now nerfing salvage too? I think it's time for me and my guild to take a break from this server.
Sun 12 May 2019 4:31 AM by dbeattie71
Trisha2019 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 3:31 AM
All these changes are NOT healthy. Nerfing everything - now nerfing salvage too? I think it's time for me and my guild to take a break from this server.

Will there be any free stuff?
Sun 12 May 2019 5:33 AM by paul_g
congrats lowest pop Saturday night i think ive seen since launch
Sun 12 May 2019 6:34 AM by tommccartney
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 9:56 PM
I agree a break maybe good , way to many changes since beta , was looking forward to a server with QoL , more hasteners , port stone , RA tweaks and a lot of other things which would make this place what Uthgard should and could have been .

I am a little concerned what sort of finished product we will get here. Every class I got to 50 or close here , I have either deleted or shelved due to some change . Makes me wonder what class I want to play lately.

I feel the same, a lot of unhealthy changes right now
Sun 12 May 2019 8:57 AM by Halma
paul_g wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 5:33 AM
congrats lowest pop Saturday night i think ive seen since launch

A lot of this drop will be because of the ongoing connection issues.
But it may also be from the salvage loot Nerf. Anyone who usually farms at this time won't do so until the salvage loot is back.
Sun 12 May 2019 10:29 AM by phixion
Mrdoctore wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 4:59 PM
Everyone can aggree that there are way too many stealthers compared to visible players, at least in rvr … and i have a ranger and a NS 50

There are many reasons for so many stealthers:

People dislike 8 man
People dislike waiting around for groups to form
People have no set groups
Hib Amnesia

I warned about people abandoning their visibles for stealthers months ago due to Hib Amnesia, still waiting for a change on that, yet charges get nerfed in to the ground and solo play is as good as dead.
Sun 12 May 2019 11:22 AM by jhaerik
chryso wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:05 PM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:38 PM
chryso wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 7:36 PM
This nerf of stat buffs does not go far enough. Self buffing classes are directly nerfed by stat pots and charges. These classes now have spec lines that are largely useless because other classes can get what they had to spec for with just a few gold.

Stop being ridiculous.

Not for a single day in the history of DAoC has anyone good at RvR relied on self stat buffs. A bunch of super casuals died a lot, and asked for them to be buffed a lot. They have NEVER been good. Stop trying to remake the game. That's what EA did.

It's NEVER been a thing. Those buffs are only there to make it cheaper to grind loot/xp. Not for RvR.

Those classes are balanced based on their buffs. Since the self buff does not stack with pots then the self buffers are at a disadvantage.

If they are balanced based on them. Stop complaining. Because those buffs suck. That means if you have full buffs you should be uber OP right?

....because reality says they are balanced around having full buffs. Like everyone else.
Sun 12 May 2019 11:57 AM by dbeattie71
Halma wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 8:57 AM
paul_g wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 5:33 AM
congrats lowest pop Saturday night i think ive seen since launch

A lot of this drop will be because of the ongoing connection issues.
But it may also be from the salvage loot Nerf. Anyone who usually farms at this time won't do so until the salvage loot is back.

Yeah, it’s why I logged early.
Sun 12 May 2019 12:33 PM by inoeth
although i like the new combined forces, i notice that many people now use legion heal charges+heal pot which almost is IP3 every 2 minutes. this is especialy annoying vs classes that do not have ip naturally like assassins. im playing melee ranger right now and it is not possible to kill even low rr assassins now because they have 1.5 the hp they normally have.
yeah one could say now "get the heals yourself" which is true and try to get them now but still this is kind of stupid and will again cost alot of gold to compete.
Sun 12 May 2019 1:43 PM by chois
That s true , now everybody run charge abla + heal legion, so it s clearly the same for the cost charges than before😊. So....
Sun 12 May 2019 2:40 PM by mhenfhis
phixion wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 10:29 AM
Mrdoctore wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 4:59 PM
Everyone can aggree that there are way too many stealthers compared to visible players, at least in rvr … and i have a ranger and a NS 50

There are many reasons for so many stealthers:

People dislike 8 man
People dislike waiting around for groups to form
People have no set groups
Hib Amnesia

I warned about people abandoning their visibles for stealthers months ago due to Hib Amnesia, still waiting for a change on that, yet charges get nerfed in to the ground and solo play is as good as dead.
Also the OF maps doesnt favour much solos with the mg bottle necks...
Sun 12 May 2019 2:56 PM by tweedledumb99
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 12:33 PM
although i like the new combined forces, i notice that many people now use legion heal charges+heal pot which almost is IP3 every 2 minutes. this is especialy annoying vs classes that do not have ip naturally like assassins. im playing melee ranger right now and it is not possible to kill even low rr assassins now because they have 1.5 the hp they normally have.
yeah one could say now "get the heals yourself" which is true and try to get them now but still this is kind of stupid and will again cost alot of gold to compete.

Someone is getting 50% hp healed from 500 worth of heals while fully buffed?
Sun 12 May 2019 3:03 PM by Svekt
The trickle down continues. Next time should poll your server on launch or announce the thread in game. It's amazing how much lash back you get when not everyone is involved in the process. relying on the same handful of people who actually use the forum vs the amount that actually use the server was just a silly idea.
Sun 12 May 2019 3:25 PM by Mauriac
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 4:31 AM
Trisha2019 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 3:31 AM
All these changes are NOT healthy. Nerfing everything - now nerfing salvage too? I think it's time for me and my guild to take a break from this server.

Will there be any free stuff?

Dude, this is at least the 5th or 6th time you've asked this retarded question. Why in the hell do you continue with this troll crap? Do you seriously not care if people leave? Are you one of those people who is perfectly content to play dick grab with the same 50 people as opposed to daoc with a healthy population? Jesus dude I seriously don't get you. One moment you post something intelligent, coherent and well reasoned and the next you post something that is literally moronic. Posts like "oh free shit" only reinforce a toxic atmosphere in the server and encourage people to leave. If you prefer that, then by all means continue with your troll posts. But if you prefer to actually play with something other than yourself or inflatable doll perhaps it's best to either ignore "I'm leaving posts" or at least respond with something that isn't retarded.
Sun 12 May 2019 4:04 PM by dbeattie71
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 3:25 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 4:31 AM
Trisha2019 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 3:31 AM
All these changes are NOT healthy. Nerfing everything - now nerfing salvage too? I think it's time for me and my guild to take a break from this server.

Will there be any free stuff?

Dude, this is at least the 5th or 6th time you've asked this retarded question. Why in the hell do you continue with this troll crap? Do you seriously not care if people leave? Are you one of those people who is perfectly content to play dick grab with the same 50 people as opposed to daoc with a healthy population? Jesus dude I seriously don't get you. One moment you post something intelligent, coherent and well reasoned and the next you post something that is literally moronic. Posts like "oh free shit" only reinforce a toxic atmosphere in the server and encourage people to leave. If you prefer that, then by all means continue with your troll posts. But if you prefer to actually play with something other than yourself or inflatable doll perhaps it's best to either ignore "I'm leaving posts" or at least respond with something that isn't retarded.

Others ask it too, it’s customary.
Sun 12 May 2019 4:27 PM by Mauriac
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 4:04 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 3:25 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 4:31 AM
Will there be any free stuff?

Dude, this is at least the 5th or 6th time you've asked this retarded question. Why in the hell do you continue with this troll crap? Do you seriously not care if people leave? Are you one of those people who is perfectly content to play dick grab with the same 50 people as opposed to daoc with a healthy population? Jesus dude I seriously don't get you. One moment you post something intelligent, coherent and well reasoned and the next you post something that is literally moronic. Posts like "oh free shit" only reinforce a toxic atmosphere in the server and encourage people to leave. If you prefer that, then by all means continue with your troll posts. But if you prefer to actually play with something other than yourself or inflatable doll perhaps it's best to either ignore "I'm leaving posts" or at least respond with something that isn't retarded.

Others ask it too, it’s customary.

I know but unlike the others you actually post intelligent stuff in other posts which is why I don't get it. The rest of the people who post that add nothing or very little to any discussion on here. Not meaning to single you out but that is just my observation
Sun 12 May 2019 4:58 PM by inoeth
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 2:56 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 12:33 PM
although i like the new combined forces, i notice that many people now use legion heal charges+heal pot which almost is IP3 every 2 minutes. this is especialy annoying vs classes that do not have ip naturally like assassins. im playing melee ranger right now and it is not possible to kill even low rr assassins now because they have 1.5 the hp they normally have.
yeah one could say now "get the heals yourself" which is true and try to get them now but still this is kind of stupid and will again cost alot of gold to compete.

Someone is getting 50% hp healed from 500 worth of heals while fully buffed?

i said almost .... could be less ofc but still its 500+ hp they normally dont have
Sun 12 May 2019 5:37 PM by dbeattie71
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 4:27 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 4:04 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 3:25 PM
Dude, this is at least the 5th or 6th time you've asked this retarded question. Why in the hell do you continue with this troll crap? Do you seriously not care if people leave? Are you one of those people who is perfectly content to play dick grab with the same 50 people as opposed to daoc with a healthy population? Jesus dude I seriously don't get you. One moment you post something intelligent, coherent and well reasoned and the next you post something that is literally moronic. Posts like "oh free shit" only reinforce a toxic atmosphere in the server and encourage people to leave. If you prefer that, then by all means continue with your troll posts. But if you prefer to actually play with something other than yourself or inflatable doll perhaps it's best to either ignore "I'm leaving posts" or at least respond with something that isn't retarded.

Others ask it too, it’s customary.

I know but unlike the others you actually post intelligent stuff in other posts which is why I don't get it. The rest of the people who post that add nothing or very little to any discussion on here. Not meaning to single you out but that is just my observation

Why are you still observing? Didn’t you quit?
Sun 12 May 2019 6:41 PM by paul_g
Are charges back yet?
Mon 13 May 2019 9:16 AM by REVOLTE
idk why ppl are so incredibly butthurt.
they removed a tedious part of the game....and even tho i already had my charge gear up n running....its quite nice i dont have to farm extra for my alts.

why not just enjoy the game for what it is?
Mon 13 May 2019 10:39 AM by Ceen
REVOLTE wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 9:16 AM
idk why ppl are so incredibly butthurt.
they removed a tedious part of the game....and even tho i already had my charge gear up n running....its quite nice i dont have to farm extra for my alts.

why not just enjoy the game for what it is?
It's the same game now with ablative / heal charge / damage add charge instead of the other charges.
Mon 13 May 2019 11:36 AM by Sepplord
no really, it is far less of a hassle...ablative charge isn't as strong as the stat-charges were, and it's heal OR DA, not use one, wait 2mins then the other and go
Mon 13 May 2019 11:51 AM by keen
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:36 AM
no really, it is far less of a hassle...ablative charge isn't as strong as the stat-charges were, and it's heal OR DA, not use one, wait 2mins then the other and go
so now you have to run 2 instead of 3charges to compete solo.
Mon 13 May 2019 12:10 PM by Sepplord
keen wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:51 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:36 AM
no really, it is far less of a hassle...ablative charge isn't as strong as the stat-charges were, and it's heal OR DA, not use one, wait 2mins then the other and go
so now you have to run 2 instead of 3charges to compete solo.

i don't think you need MHB to compete, it's a very slight difference. And before you also had DA/Legion for the infight charge...albeit not available much time (which is the reason it was changed right?)
The huge difference is: when i don't have a worthy fight, i don't need to use DA/Heal.
I don't agree with all of the change btw. but why is overdramatizing/overexxaggerating issues so important to so many people when they want to "discuss" something?

It is absolutely not the same game with charges now compared to before. I know that, you know that, and everyone who hasn't just stumbled upon this topic knows it too. So why do you feel the need to not only exxaggerate your claims into ridiculousness but also double down and defend it when getting called out for it?
Mon 13 May 2019 12:22 PM by keen
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 12:10 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:51 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:36 AM
no really, it is far less of a hassle...ablative charge isn't as strong as the stat-charges were, and it's heal OR DA, not use one, wait 2mins then the other and go
so now you have to run 2 instead of 3charges to compete solo.

i don't think you need MHB to compete, it's a very slight difference. And before you also had DA/Legion for the infight charge...albeit not available much time (which is the reason it was changed right?)
The huge difference is: when i don't have a worthy fight, i don't need to use DA/Heal.
I don't agree with all of the change btw. but why is overdramatizing/overexxaggerating issues so important to so many people when they want to "discuss" something?

It is absolutely not the same game with charges now compared to before. I know that, you know that, and everyone who hasn't just stumbled upon this topic knows it too. So why do you feel the need to not only exxaggerate your claims into ridiculousness but also double down and defend it when getting called out for it?
I do not think it is exaggerated. You'll need MHB charge running, and use a DA/Legion Heal every fight you engage. Solo fights are usually won just by a margin, so charging will determine if you lose or not in most fights.
So for the ones that already charged up not much is changing, since they will use 2charges and win over the ones that didnt use any charges before either.
Mon 13 May 2019 12:33 PM by Sepplord
Now we have gone from "it'S the same" to "it is different but not much"

So you claim going from 3charge to 2 charges (i explained why i disagree with that statement, but let's just assume it as baseline) is "not much" of a change

4minute wait to fullbuff (6minutes wait if you want to have actives) / 6(4) of10minutes ready to play

compared to

0minute wait to fullbuff (2minutes wait if you want to have actives) / 10(8) of 10minutes ready to play


A 100% (66,67% including actives) reduction in buffing time is "not much" according to you?
Seems dishonest from my POV

PS: i wonder why noone charged MHB before if it such a fightdefining buff...I guess all players that only charge 3statbuffs were going in with a disadvantage
Mon 13 May 2019 12:36 PM by Tyrlaan
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 12:10 PM
It is absolutely not the same game with charges now compared to before. I know that, you know that, and everyone who hasn't just stumbled upon this topic knows it too. So why do you feel the need to not only exxaggerate your claims into ridiculousness but also double down and defend it when getting called out for it?

Exactly, it's absolutely not the same game, DAoC. People built characters (i.e. chose race, starting stats etc) around the availability of 75 stat charges, people farmed items for it. Because it's been part of DAoC at the patch level this server claims to emulate. If this was still beta, who cares. But it isn't. And many are unwilling to farm even more to respec race or attributes for what could be just one of more changes because the devs feel like they're a good idea. They are not. And there's trust lost.

Also the goal of ppl needing less charges (or the whine about the gold cost, lol) is very clearly missed (and who would've thought). People freed up their timer to use something else at exactly the same cost (timer management and gold). Meanwhile max stats are nerfed, self buffers are mad too and it is making this game less attractive to spend time in (see above: trust lost).
Mon 13 May 2019 12:47 PM by Sepplord
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 12:36 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 12:10 PM
It is absolutely not the same game with charges now compared to before. I know that, you know that, and everyone who hasn't just stumbled upon this topic knows it too. So why do you feel the need to not only exxaggerate your claims into ridiculousness but also double down and defend it when getting called out for it?

Exactly, it's absolutely not the same game, DAoC. People built characters (i.e. chose race, starting stats etc) around the availability of 75 stat charges, people farmed items for it. Because it's been part of DAoC at the patch level this server claims to emulate. If this was still beta, who cares. But it isn't. And many are unwilling to farm even more to respec race or attributes for what could be just one of more changes because the devs feel like they're a good idea. They are not. And there's trust lost.

Also the goal of ppl needing less charges (or the whine about the gold cost, lol) is very clearly missed (and who would've thought). People freed up their timer to use something else at exactly the same cost (timer management and gold). Meanwhile max stats are nerfed, self buffers are mad too and it is making this game less attractive to spend time in (see above: trust lost).

Which are valid complaints that i understand and also feel myself to some degree. I have several charge items in my temps that i don't really need anymore (i somehow thought having them in the temp would be better, then i noticed it just made recharging a bigger hassle ) but since they are built in i have to keep them.
If i had min/maxed my temp to 250qui with d/q charge i would be pissed now too.
I just don't think that exxaggerating helps the discussion, nor will it make devs reconsider
Mon 13 May 2019 1:43 PM by keen
That most ppl didn't run mhb before the change was a convenient thing cause timing 3was already a hassle, now it's the best charge to use and for sure you have the edge over someone who doesn't run it.
So basically costs went down to 2/3, but you also need to reapply it when you had a fight, so it is more expensive than 2/3 to keep the charge up and that is why i dont see where the big change is for solo rvr.
Mon 13 May 2019 1:59 PM by gotwqqd
keen wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:51 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:36 AM
no really, it is far less of a hassle...ablative charge isn't as strong as the stat-charges were, and it's heal OR DA, not use one, wait 2mins then the other and go
so now you have to run 2 instead of 3charges to compete solo.

You want good QoL in the game? Find a way to do without charges and pots.
Mon 13 May 2019 6:22 PM by Emeryc
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 1:59 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:51 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:36 AM
no really, it is far less of a hassle...ablative charge isn't as strong as the stat-charges were, and it's heal OR DA, not use one, wait 2mins then the other and go
so now you have to run 2 instead of 3charges to compete solo.

You want good QoL in the game? Find a way to do without charges and pots.

Easy way to do this... eliminate pots and charges... done deal.
Mon 13 May 2019 10:52 PM by Numatic
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 6:22 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 1:59 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:51 AM
so now you have to run 2 instead of 3charges to compete solo.

You want good QoL in the game? Find a way to do without charges and pots.

Easy way to do this... eliminate pots and charges... done deal.

That would unbalance just about nearly every class. I think people forget that while buffed a class may do well in RvR, unbuffed they can be complete fodder. It's not a 1 for 1 trade. Thinking "if we're both unbuffed it should be no different than if we were both buffed" is linear logic but doesnt delve into how much has changed and been added to this game.
Mon 13 May 2019 11:57 PM by Turano
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 6:22 PM
Easy way to do this... eliminate pots and charges... done deal.
good job, you've emptied the server.
What's next?
Tue 14 May 2019 7:49 AM by Druth
People hated ToA because it introduced a system where you had no chance without the elements from it (ML/Arts), and it really separated the casuals from the "elite".

People left DaoC because they discovered some were getting a major advantage from having buff-bots, and they never signed up for a game that forced you to run 2 accounts to compete 1v1.


This server should never have had charges, and likely not even pots, and should have been balanced around that.
Having vs. not having them meant win or loose.
- Have endo reduce on char? Pfftt... endo is not an issue.
- Have selfbuffs? Pfft... your enemies run near full buffed anyway.

I bet stealthers would be miffed if server had items giving visibles access to assassin stealth on a reuse timer.


But... the cat is out, the server spend 6 months in Beta balancing around CHARGES.
As much as I hate charges, and the whole "pay to win" system, this change has thrown balance off.
And as much as I think assassins are whiny bi..es, this is a major nerf to them, and one that should have been there from launch.
Tue 14 May 2019 5:04 PM by Emeryc
Turano wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 11:57 PM
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 6:22 PM
Easy way to do this... eliminate pots and charges... done deal.
good job, you've emptied the server.
What's next?
I don't believe that would be the case.
Tue 14 May 2019 9:47 PM by Sauri
This Patch was a huge nerv to Alb!
Mid and hib get spec AF! And Alb get a kick i the butt.
Damage Tables was ok and balanced with spec af on alb side.
Now its broken.
For all Realms it was a Caster Nerv! No Red Acuity with good value anymore for all Casters!
And that after the long time now the Server is up!
The longer a Server is up the better the Melees get! (More Det and Damage avoidance RAs) And in that time you lower all Caster Damage over the Server....
I think this patch wasnt good for the gamefeeling for many people!

Just my thoughts!
Tue 14 May 2019 10:49 PM by Emeryc
Numatic wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 10:52 PM
Emeryc wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 6:22 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 1:59 PM
You want good QoL in the game? Find a way to do without charges and pots.

Easy way to do this... eliminate pots and charges... done deal.

That would unbalance just about nearly every class. I think people forget that while buffed a class may do well in RvR, unbuffed they can be complete fodder. It's not a 1 for 1 trade. Thinking "if we're both unbuffed it should be no different than if we were both buffed" is linear logic but doesnt delve into how much has changed and been added to this game.
In essence, I agree with you. However, I don't believe it would "unbalance" classes... I believe it would actually restore some balance. I agree that the growth is not linear, nor is it the same for each class... there are a few classes whose relative strength is increased far more by buffs than other classes.

All that said, I think the idea of "balance" as it is used here is really nebulous. What is balance and how do we quantify it? Maybe that's the discussion we should be having.

As I have said before, pots and charges do not make the game more sophisticated or challenging... they do the exact opposite. They create a highly homogenized state of play where everyone must have the exact same pots, charges, abilities in order to compete... precisely what we have now. Removing buff pots creates a wildly diverse list of choices which players must make... choices players do not have to consider, right now:
-Do I run solo and unbuffed or do I group with a buffing class? (For stealth zergs, this is a really tough decision... hmmm, wonder if it would cull them, a bit.)
-Can I give up some healing acumen or CC to increase my group's stats? Or do we need to run an extra Healer/Druid/Cleric?
-Do we focus the CC or the buffer? (In small man, this becomes a HUGE decision because dropping the buffer can have a profound impact on the rest of the fight.)
-Do I spam anytime styles or preserve endurance for reactionary styles? (Slam becomes a lot less appealing now.)
and a million others...

Would be nice to have the outcomes of encounters more heavily influenced by good (or bad) play than by who has what buff and charge available.
Wed 15 May 2019 5:37 AM by gotwqqd
I think quite a few classes would have a very hard time.
Particularly when trying to solo and help out in battles or trying to pick off grouped enemies.
Sure the buffed grouped should have advantage but it would be massive
Wed 15 May 2019 6:54 AM by Warlay
You can arguing what you want it is just bullshit, watch the herald much ppl stopped to play, me too. And I will not continue when they don't revert it.
Wed 15 May 2019 8:55 AM by Ceen
Warlay wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 6:54 AM
You can arguing what you want it is just bullshit, watch the herald much ppl stopped to play, me too. And I will not continue when they don't revert it.
The Herald displays only the top scorer (charge users), it doesn't display the population (pot users) at all.
So yes the charge users (me included) are in rage mode and stop playing, but does it effect the population? I don't think so.
Since the buff changes I see the FZ flodded with rr2-4 people somehow =)
Yes population is declining but not faster as it was before the change.
In the first month people just played for nostalgia or because they liked something new. Like with every decent project in the beginning you have full motivation and you see the benefits, not the problems.
After three month well we are in a phase where it shifts and people begin to see the problems + most likely it didn't turn out how they wanted the server to be.
\citep{Freud}
Wed 15 May 2019 1:58 PM by Laviski
These changes reveresed yet?
Wed 15 May 2019 2:37 PM by pax
I dont see a reason to not put old values of charges in the actual combined forces pot, idk why they choose to nerf a bit the values, i mean is not that a solo will get better buff or resist than a buff from a player with the pot.. or anyway even in a group is possible to spam a combined forces for what it is.. 3\5g each run\10min for getting haste\af or other buffs you wouldn't get with the actual group comb..
Thu 16 May 2019 6:49 AM by Freedomcall
They now allowed players to sell back their feather items for 50% of its original price.
So it became better for me to catch up 'early adopters for new charge item meta'
Thu 16 May 2019 6:53 AM by Sepplord
pax wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 2:37 PM
I dont see a reason to not put old values of charges in the actual combined forces pot, idk why they choose to nerf a bit the values, i mean is not that a solo will get better buff or resist than a buff from a player with the pot.. or anyway even in a group is possible to spam a combined forces for what it is.. 3\5g each run\10min for getting haste\af or other buffs you wouldn't get with the actual group comb..

because then there wouldn't be a need to take specbuffers in group anymore
Thu 16 May 2019 7:25 AM by pax
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 6:53 AM
pax wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 2:37 PM
I dont see a reason to not put old values of charges in the actual combined forces pot, idk why they choose to nerf a bit the values, i mean is not that a solo will get better buff or resist than a buff from a player with the pot.. or anyway even in a group is possible to spam a combined forces for what it is.. 3\5g each run\10min for getting haste\af or other buffs you wouldn't get with the actual group comb..

because then there wouldn't be a need to take specbuffers in group anymore

If i have to guess is a bigger problem that solos have now more nerfed stats vs duos\small\buffing class than other class have a line less where to spec.. They dont have a problem at all vs limiting the gameplay of everyone that have to encounter often full buffed classes\duos that can roll on them only because they have bigger numbers stats-side.
Is more fair to let solo access to the same stats they will have in group than viceversa, or their chances to win vs duos\trios will go down again by a noticeable margin.
Idk, was a smart change that help my gameplay too because i was rarely using charges, but if you did this step forward it make no sense to do three behinde and nerf stats for solos.
Thu 16 May 2019 3:32 PM by Pirhana7
pax wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 2:37 PM
I dont see a reason to not put old values of charges in the actual combined forces pot, idk why they choose to nerf a bit the values, i mean is not that a solo will get better buff or resist than a buff from a player with the pot.. or anyway even in a group is possible to spam a combined forces for what it is.. 3\5g each run\10min for getting haste\af or other buffs you wouldn't get with the actual group comb..

So that classes that have buff skill lines have a reason to spec in those lines and get an actual benefit of better buffs. Friars, Rangers, Hunters, Thanes, and Champs gain a lot more in their lines than what they would gain from the potion. Charges were almost as strong and for some classes stronger.
Sun 19 May 2019 5:31 AM by Inkwell84
Can someone give me short version of why stealthers are upset about the charge item nerf
Sun 19 May 2019 9:38 AM by grated
Some stealthers are upset at the loss of stat points from the charges, from 101 str/con/dex to 83 and similarly for quickness. They believe this puts them at a disadvantage when fighting classes who must spec for buffs or fighting groups who group a buffer. Some also believe it takes longer to get a kill, exposing them for longer.

Many stealthers are happy as they do not need to carry and manage so many charge items. Generally you're fighting other solos who are also on the same buffs, so the change is neutral.
Sun 19 May 2019 11:01 AM by Drominchen
grated wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 9:38 AM
Some stealthers are upset at the loss of stat points from the charges, from 101 str/con/dex to 83 and similarly for quickness. They believe this puts them at a disadvantage when fighting classes who must spec for buffs or fighting groups who group a buffer. Some also believe it takes longer to get a kill, exposing them for longer.

Many stealthers are happy as they do not need to carry and manage so many charge items. Generally you're fighting other solos who are also on the same buffs, so the change is neutral.

That is not the full truth sadly.

Everyone except self buff classes lost 18 str/con/dex, 25 qui and 3% haste. So all that build their temps around those available stats (cap swing speed with 250 qui and 17%) now have to rebuild their temps and/or invest points into aug qui and mastery of arms to compensate.

That means losing a lot of points in damage RAs and your opponents now have AF up 100% of the time because it is included in combined now resulting in a lot longer kill times and additionally making some targets that were very difficult before now even more OPed (hello friar losing only 25 con from this nerf for example). On a server where 90% of the action is packed in Emain and you only have so long to kill something without adds that makes soloing so unattractive that most soloers have lost interest to even try it.

But it is true those peeps that just play and add and kill everything they see or die trying are happy now because they only have to press one button for max buffs every 10 mins.
Sun 19 May 2019 11:04 AM by florin
Drominchen wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 11:01 AM
grated wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 9:38 AM
Some stealthers are upset at the loss of stat points from the charges, from 101 str/con/dex to 83 and similarly for quickness. They believe this puts them at a disadvantage when fighting classes who must spec for buffs or fighting groups who group a buffer. Some also believe it takes longer to get a kill, exposing them for longer.

Many stealthers are happy as they do not need to carry and manage so many charge items. Generally you're fighting other solos who are also on the same buffs, so the change is neutral.

That is not the full truth sadly.

Everyone except self buff classes lost 18 str/con/dex, 25 qui and 3% haste. So all that build their temps around those available stats (cap swing speed with 250 qui and 17%) now have to rebuild their temps and/or invest points into aug qui and mastery of arms to compensate.

That means losing a lot of points in damage RAs and your opponents now have AF up 100% of the time because it is included in combined now resulting in a lot longer kill times and additionally making some targets that were very difficult before now even more OPed (hello friar losing only 25 con from this nerf for example). On a server where 90% of the action is packed in Emain and you only have so long to kill something without adds that makes soloing so unattractive that most soloers have lost interest to even try it.
Should not affect temps as stats should be maxed there. The RA sink is huge for qui and other stats and hits some races harder.
Sun 19 May 2019 11:08 AM by Drominchen
florin wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 11:04 AM
Drominchen wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 11:01 AM
grated wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 9:38 AM
Some stealthers are upset at the loss of stat points from the charges, from 101 str/con/dex to 83 and similarly for quickness. They believe this puts them at a disadvantage when fighting classes who must spec for buffs or fighting groups who group a buffer. Some also believe it takes longer to get a kill, exposing them for longer.

Many stealthers are happy as they do not need to carry and manage so many charge items. Generally you're fighting other solos who are also on the same buffs, so the change is neutral.

That is not the full truth sadly.

Everyone except self buff classes lost 18 str/con/dex, 25 qui and 3% haste. So all that build their temps around those available stats (cap swing speed with 250 qui and 17%) now have to rebuild their temps and/or invest points into aug qui and mastery of arms to compensate.

That means losing a lot of points in damage RAs and your opponents now have AF up 100% of the time because it is included in combined now resulting in a lot longer kill times and additionally making some targets that were very difficult before now even more OPed (hello friar losing only 25 con from this nerf for example). On a server where 90% of the action is packed in Emain and you only have so long to kill something without adds that makes soloing so unattractive that most soloers have lost interest to even try it.
Should not affect temps as stats should be maxed there. The RA sink is huge for qui and other stats and hits some races harder.

of course it can also affect temps because you build with certain weapon speeds to achieve 1.5 swing speed. If you could reach that with 4.2 main and 3.3 before you can reach it now only with 4.2 main and 2.4 off for example (not exact numbers have to calculate it with real stats of course).
Sun 19 May 2019 11:27 AM by florin
Drominchen wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 11:08 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 11:04 AM
Drominchen wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 11:01 AM
That is not the full truth sadly.

Everyone except self buff classes lost 18 str/con/dex, 25 qui and 3% haste. So all that build their temps around those available stats (cap swing speed with 250 qui and 17%) now have to rebuild their temps and/or invest points into aug qui and mastery of arms to compensate.

That means losing a lot of points in damage RAs and your opponents now have AF up 100% of the time because it is included in combined now resulting in a lot longer kill times and additionally making some targets that were very difficult before now even more OPed (hello friar losing only 25 con from this nerf for example). On a server where 90% of the action is packed in Emain and you only have so long to kill something without adds that makes soloing so unattractive that most soloers have lost interest to even try it.
Should not affect temps as stats should be maxed there. The RA sink is huge for qui and other stats and hits some races harder.

of course it can also affect temps because you build with certain weapon speeds to achieve 1.5 swing speed. If you could reach that with 4.2 main and 3.3 before you can reach it now only with 4.2 main and 2.4 off for example (not exact numbers have to calculate it with real stats of course).
Hmm I guess you can get new wepns or get more qui or both. I went with more qui.
Sun 19 May 2019 3:56 PM by Turano
to be honest after trying it now for a bit I almost totaly have lost any interest in soloing anymore
with a dps loss of 15-20% it is now almost impossible to finish a 1v1 fight without anyone adding (and for me being hib that means in emain it's 90% albs or mids adding and I get kicked back to Ligen with a 7 minute walk ahead of me to get back to the action.
It is just not fun any more
Sun 19 May 2019 5:52 PM by Warlay
Turano wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 3:56 PM
to be honest after trying it now for a bit I almost totaly have lost any interest in soloing anymore
with a dps loss of 15-20% it is now almost impossible to finish a 1v1 fight without anyone adding (and for me being hib that means in emain it's 90% albs or mids adding and I get kicked back to Ligen with a 7 minute walk ahead of me to get back to the action.
It is just not fun any more

same for me i logged in a few times and i have the same experience. also i took 0 pleasure with that so i will take a break or whatever
Sun 19 May 2019 8:26 PM by Emeryc
Inkwell84 wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 5:31 AM
Can someone give me short version of why stealthers are upset about the charge item nerf

Stealthers (and other frequent solos) are often the most hardcore min/maxers in the game. Their specs, templates and even playstyles are often the most optimized for maximum advantage, especially in 1v1 scenarios. Stealthers generally like the idea of having a LOT of opportunities to create an advantage... hence, having tons of different pots, charges, procs, buffs, etc provides myriad opportunities for a fully optimized toon to have an advantage over other toons who may only be 99% optimized. Certainly, this advantage grows quite great as opponents are less optimized.
In other words, having lots of pots, charges, procs, buffs, etc. creates a far less level playing field. This is especially true for those players who do not invest the time and effort (either by choice or necessity) into creating a fully optimized toon. Stealthers and other solo players feast on this lack of levelled field.
Don't misunderstand me... I do not mean to minimize the skill of their play: I've been wrecked by lots of stealthers who would have still wrecked me with half the level of optimization they had.
Anyway, the change to charges and pots reduces the opportunity for Stealthers (and other solos) to gain those advantages. That's why many of them don't like it.
Sun 19 May 2019 9:15 PM by eqiz
I'm sorry, but these complaints are pretty comical.

Most of you are complaining as a solo you can't have the same stats as someone with a buffer in group? I mean is this a joke? What would be the point of having a buffing class if you can get the same, stats with press of a button? Makes absolutely no sense. They didn't even have these types of buffs back in early day classic.

People complaining about not being able to kill off duo's and trio's as a solo? I'm so sorry that you believe a higher buff would provide this possibility when they would have the exact same buffs? Your argument makes no sense.

To those complaining about putting in the time to get the gear for the stat items, so your argument is that this version of DAoC should be based off charges/uses just like what killed live with all that bs? Where if you didn't have specific charges/uses then you didn't stand a chance because you didn't farm out the gold/feathers to get the gear? get out of here.

If your skilled enough the changes aren't going to affect anything. IF your high enough RR to compensate then you will easily be able to.

Worried about being visible too long to kill someone? stop camping areas between PK and MMG's where there is constant traffic and your chances of being killed are significantly increased...

The only thing I would say is that the items that people purchased and complained about putting in the work for the feathers for, why not just make them sell back for 100% feathers for a limited time or something? easy fix IMO. Use those excess feathers to buy something else to sale/trade for other crap.
Sun 19 May 2019 11:46 PM by Numatic
eqiz wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 9:15 PM
I'm sorry, but these complaints are pretty comical.

Most of you are complaining as a solo you can't have the same stats as someone with a buffer in group? I mean is this a joke? What would be the point of having a buffing class if you can get the same, stats with press of a button? Makes absolutely no sense. They didn't even have these types of buffs back in early day classic.

Because an 8man has SO much to worry about from a fully buffed soloer

Disparity aside, why nerf soloers who wanted to min/max? While I agree charges should be gone with the wind, soloers should not be taking even more of a hit against a grouped player. 8mans have a lot more going for them than just buffs. Even if they were equal to what a soloer could have, it removes cost for pots. Mind you, a buff class also brings resists as well and other utility.

There are alot of fights involving a large group of soloers, duos, etc.. vs 8mans in RvR. Gimping their chances even more with min/max stat decreases further insinuates that the playstyle being adopted by the devs is 8v8.

So yes, being fully buffed does nothing for you in a 1v8 situation, but can make a ton of difference with 8-10+ soloers vs an 8man. As it stands now, a competant group of 8mans can decimate twice their numbers with ease against soloers.

The advantage of an 8man isnt buffs. It's the utility, survivability and synergy having 7 other people with you working together. It means you have a far better chance of fighting another 8man, or a larger group of ungrouped players congregated in a single area.

Grouping is already OP, and the new change made that gap even wider. And while I agree that it somewhat negates buff spec, the right answer wasnt to make soloers weaker against them. That's what people are complaining about.
Mon 20 May 2019 12:08 AM by Gosainkunda
*plays mmo*
”grouping is op”
Mon 20 May 2019 6:16 AM by Numatic
Gosainkunda wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 12:08 AM
*plays mmo*
”grouping is op”


Grouping isnt everything to many. A great number of players dont play mmos to group. They play for the variety of PvP action. Just like most dont play here for the PvE but some do. And quite frankly, many interactions with this community have been....subpar...so it gives me and others less incentive to group together.

But the change is in and it's likely not going anywhere so we just all live with the group or zerg mentality.
Mon 20 May 2019 7:12 AM by Sepplord
were the groups of 10-15soloers fighting 8mans in front of their portkeep really 3-charging buffs before the change?

i kind of doubt that the zerging mass betwen the milegates and telekeeps did get weaker because of these new buffs...
Mon 20 May 2019 11:25 AM by florin
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 7:12 AM
were the groups of 10-15soloers fighting 8mans in front of their portkeep really 3-charging buffs before the change?

i kind of doubt that the zerging mass betwen the milegates and telekeeps did get weaker because of these new buffs...

Many of the stealthers, necros, and albs in general run solo among the 8 and 16 mans. Why would they do better with 79 less stats?

1 charge at pk, 1 charge at mg and if you’re a stealther 1 charge behind the tree.
Mon 20 May 2019 11:30 AM by Sepplord
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:25 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 7:12 AM
were the groups of 10-15soloers fighting 8mans in front of their portkeep really 3-charging buffs before the change?

i kind of doubt that the zerging mass betwen the milegates and telekeeps did get weaker because of these new buffs...

Many of the stealthers, necros, and albs in general run solo among the 8 and 16 mans. Why would they do better with 79 less stats?

I know reading can be really hard from time to time, a total of two sentences that have to be read together made it more complicated than needed, sorry for that.
I'll spell it out for you:

i doubt that the majority of soloers that fight FGs between the milegates and their portkeep were 3-charging buffs before the change.
Which logically leads to: i doubt that the majority of soloers that fight FGs between the milegates and their portkeep have 79 less stats now

Clear now?
Mon 20 May 2019 11:33 AM by florin
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:30 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:25 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 7:12 AM
were the groups of 10-15soloers fighting 8mans in front of their portkeep really 3-charging buffs before the change?

i kind of doubt that the zerging mass betwen the milegates and telekeeps did get weaker because of these new buffs...

Many of the stealthers, necros, and albs in general run solo among the 8 and 16 mans. Why would they do better with 79 less stats?

I know reading can be really hard from time to time, a total of two sentences that have to be read together made it more complicated than needed, sorry for that.
I'll spell it out for you:

i doubt that the majority of soloers that fight FGs between the milegates and their portkeep were 3-charging buffs before the change.
Which logically leads to: i doubt that the majority of soloers that fight FGs between the milegates and their portkeep have 79 less stats now

Clear now?

Perhaps you should read all I wrote before you huff and puff keyboard warrior
Mon 20 May 2019 1:53 PM by Sepplord
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:33 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:30 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:25 AM
Many of the stealthers, necros, and albs in general run solo among the 8 and 16 mans. Why would they do better with 79 less stats?

I know reading can be really hard from time to time, a total of two sentences that have to be read together made it more complicated than needed, sorry for that.
I'll spell it out for you:

i doubt that the majority of soloers that fight FGs between the milegates and their portkeep were 3-charging buffs before the change.
Which logically leads to: i doubt that the majority of soloers that fight FGs between the milegates and their portkeep have 79 less stats now

Clear now?

Perhaps you should read all I wrote before you huff and puff keyboard warrior

I did, and just redid it. So if your goal was simply to waste my time, you suceeeded. I didn't find anything that would make me rethink my words.

You know what the differnce is between us two keyboard warriors (as you called us), i at least reword my claim to make it clear for the mere chance you really didn't understand, while you simply try to insult and have nothing to back up
Mon 20 May 2019 1:59 PM by florin
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 1:53 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:33 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:30 AM
I know reading can be really hard from time to time, a total of two sentences that have to be read together made it more complicated than needed, sorry for that.
I'll spell it out for you:

i doubt that the majority of soloers that fight FGs between the milegates and their portkeep were 3-charging buffs before the change.
Which logically leads to: i doubt that the majority of soloers that fight FGs between the milegates and their portkeep have 79 less stats now

Clear now?

Perhaps you should read all I wrote before you huff and puff keyboard warrior

I did, and just redid it. So if your goal was simply to waste my time, you suceeeded. I didn't find anything that would make me rethink my words.

You know what the differnce is between us two keyboard warriors (as you called us), i at least reword my claim to make it clear for the mere chance you really didn't understand, while you simply try to insult and have nothing to back up

No one really cares what the majority does. I care what I do. I used 3 charges, I solo 99% of the time. My game play experience has been negatively affected - I am not alone on this. People have quit over this poorly implemented change. Now some people will say good riddance - ya go and shoot your self in the foot. When your euphoria wears off, you will wake up with 64 players like Uthgard whose owners also thought it was genius to mess with charges. Have fun playing with yourself and trolling the boards tough guy.
Mon 20 May 2019 2:10 PM by Sepplord
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 1:59 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 1:53 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:33 AM
Perhaps you should read all I wrote before you huff and puff keyboard warrior

I did, and just redid it. So if your goal was simply to waste my time, you suceeeded. I didn't find anything that would make me rethink my words.

You know what the differnce is between us two keyboard warriors (as you called us), i at least reword my claim to make it clear for the mere chance you really didn't understand, while you simply try to insult and have nothing to back up

No one really cares what the majority does. I care what I do. I used 3 charges, I solo 99% of the time. My game play experience has been negatively affected - I am not alone on this. People have quit over this poorly implemented change. Now some people will say good riddance - ya go and shoot your self in the foot. When your euphoria wears off, you will wake up with 64 players like Uthgard whose owners also thought it was genius to mess with charges. Have fun playing with yourself and trolling the boards tough guy.

I wonder why you had to barge into the going discussion and quote me then, when i make a general statement, just because it didn't fit your personal agenda and despite not adressing you, you think you need to correct the general statement because it was incorrect for the small subset of "You".
At least you admit that it's just about YOU personally being angry/butthurt for being nerfed...But...Noone disputed that it was a nerf to some people.

The "problem" was that some of you guys (not you neccessarily) keep parrotting how this is a nerf to all Solos and how it "clearly shows DEV bias towards 8manning". Which is ridiculous, as the majority of those solos fighting fullgrps got buffed. These players are butthurt and are trying to paint the change that is a buff to the majority of the population and pulls casuals/hardcores to a more similar powerlevel in a bad light. They don't want to admit that they are just upset about themselves being nerfed (like you now did) but try to make it into a nerf to casuals to stirr up drama.

It really doesn't matter if you care about the majority or not, when someone says "the majority is impacted in this way or that way" and that information is correct, why do you feel the need to quote and "huff puff" (to use your own words)?
If you don't care about the majority, why did my comment about the majority trigger you so hard?
Mon 20 May 2019 2:16 PM by florin
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 2:10 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 1:59 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 1:53 PM
I did, and just redid it. So if your goal was simply to waste my time, you suceeeded. I didn't find anything that would make me rethink my words.

You know what the differnce is between us two keyboard warriors (as you called us), i at least reword my claim to make it clear for the mere chance you really didn't understand, while you simply try to insult and have nothing to back up

No one really cares what the majority does. I care what I do. I used 3 charges, I solo 99% of the time. My game play experience has been negatively affected - I am not alone on this. People have quit over this poorly implemented change. Now some people will say good riddance - ya go and shoot your self in the foot. When your euphoria wears off, you will wake up with 64 players like Uthgard whose owners also thought it was genius to mess with charges. Have fun playing with yourself and trolling the boards tough guy.

I wonder why you had to barge into the going discussion and quote me then, when i make a general statement, just because it didn't fit your personal agenda and despite not adressing you, you think you need to correct the general statement because it was incorrect for the small subset of "You".
At least you admit that it's just about YOU personally being angry/butthurt for being nerfed...But...Noone disputed that it was a nerf to some people.

The "problem" was that some of you guys (not you neccessarily) keep parrotting how this is a nerf to all Solos and how it "clearly shows DEV bias towards 8manning". Which is ridiculous, as the majority of those solos fighting fullgrps got buffed.

It really doesn't matter if you care about the majority or not, when someone says "the majority is impacted in this way or that way" and that information is correct, why do you feel the need to quote and "huff puff" (to use your own words).

I do apologize for barging in on your safe space snowflake - you made a generalization- that you doubt the majority of soloers used 3 charges for milegate fights blah blah. I’m telling you your generalization is flat wrong. Now if you are counting the suiciding, straight line running, rp/xp welfare folks - that’s not really solo, just rp cows. You want to live in your echo chamber go ahead.
Mon 20 May 2019 3:06 PM by Horus
As a soloer I like the changes, even though I lost 50% feathers on my pookah mantle. No biggie.

To those entitled snowflake assassins who have been playing easy mode..cry all you like. And feel free to quit if you are so butt hurt just because there is a little bit more of a challenge. You will not be missed.
Mon 20 May 2019 7:17 PM by Druth
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 2:16 PM
I do apologize for barging in on your safe space snowflake

Complains that soloing became harder due to change, and calls others snowflake...


Anyway, sad if people leave because of the change. Just wish they tried to compensate some other way, or changed their staunch stance on soloing.
Mon 20 May 2019 7:34 PM by Tyrlaan
Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 3:06 PM
To those entitled snowflake assassins who have been playing easy mode..cry all you like. And feel free to quit if you are so butt hurt just because there is a little bit more of a challenge. You will not be missed.

I remember this attitude when it came to NNNNNF. Cry more, you'll not be missed, blah blah. I'm sure, live and Uth misses the players now - and they'll never come back coz nobody is gonna invest their time into a MMO with dwindling or no population and just a-holes like you celebrating anybody who leaves. When changes cost population and don't gain any, the direction this project is heading to is pretty clear.

You should check the consistency in your reasoning, too. Is it easy mode to go to great lengths and use every advantage the game offers to win (e.g. charges albeit at a cost: gold and possible cooldown on timer) or is it too hard, tedious, whatever for people to juggle charges so that this change was necessary? Even you could've grown out of being lazy. Pot and go is easymode - and stale. How about active RAs next, them being up decides fights just as much as buffs do. The remark about communists somewhere earlier in this thread was spot on.

Anyway, have fun. I do.
Mon 20 May 2019 11:49 PM by Pirhana7
Turano wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 3:56 PM
to be honest after trying it now for a bit I almost totaly have lost any interest in soloing anymore
with a dps loss of 15-20% it is now almost impossible to finish a 1v1 fight without anyone adding (and for me being hib that means in emain it's 90% albs or mids adding and I get kicked back to Ligen with a 7 minute walk ahead of me to get back to the action.
It is just not fun any more

Losing 25 str / dex is not making you lose 15- 20% damage, its more like 3 or 4% damage. Also remember that every you are 1v1 against has 25 less con than they did before (other than champs and thanes) so they have less hit points. the only thing to be mad about is that you are facing more people with the exact same buffs and you don't have a buff advantage. Must really hate those balanced fair fights....
Tue 21 May 2019 1:45 AM by Turano
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:49 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 3:56 PM
to be honest after trying it now for a bit I almost totaly have lost any interest in soloing anymore
with a dps loss of 15-20% it is now almost impossible to finish a 1v1 fight without anyone adding (and for me being hib that means in emain it's 90% albs or mids adding and I get kicked back to Ligen with a 7 minute walk ahead of me to get back to the action.
It is just not fun any more

Losing 25 str / dex is not making you lose 15- 20% damage, its more like 3 or 4% damage. Also remember that every you are 1v1 against has 25 less con than they did before (other than champs and thanes) so they have less hit points. the only thing to be mad about is that you are facing more people with the exact same buffs and you don't have a buff advantage. Must really hate those balanced fair fights....
We also lost 3% haste and 25 quickness.
Before I had a swing speed of 1,77 seconds, after the nerf it is 1,99. That alone is a loss of 12,5%.
I have, fully buffed, 245 strength now. This includes aug str 5! This is laughable.
Don't tell me anything about fair fights. No online game is ever about fair fighting (ok maybe online chess). You always try to be in a better position than your opponents. Eve online has the saying that if you engage in a fair fight you've done something wrong.
And regarding that nothing has changed. People are just using different charges now than before to get an edge.
Tue 21 May 2019 1:52 AM by florin
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 7:17 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 2:16 PM
I do apologize for barging in on your safe space snowflake

Complains that soloing became harder due to change, and calls others snowflake...


Anyway, sad if people leave because of the change. Just wish they tried to compensate some other way, or changed their staunch stance on soloing.

I adapted and play another class - still solo cause I have a small kid that wakes up randomly. Rubbing afk wouldn’t be fair to the group.
Tue 21 May 2019 5:47 AM by Druth
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 1:52 AM
I adapted and play another class - still solo cause I have a small kid that wakes up randomly. Rubbing afk wouldn’t be fair to the group.

I feel your pain, a family man myself.
Tue 21 May 2019 11:00 AM by Ferdi
please restore charge value back
Wed 22 May 2019 7:22 PM by Horus
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 1:45 AM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:49 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 3:56 PM
to be honest after trying it now for a bit I almost totaly have lost any interest in soloing anymore
with a dps loss of 15-20% it is now almost impossible to finish a 1v1 fight without anyone adding (and for me being hib that means in emain it's 90% albs or mids adding and I get kicked back to Ligen with a 7 minute walk ahead of me to get back to the action.
It is just not fun any more

Losing 25 str / dex is not making you lose 15- 20% damage, its more like 3 or 4% damage. Also remember that every you are 1v1 against has 25 less con than they did before (other than champs and thanes) so they have less hit points. the only thing to be mad about is that you are facing more people with the exact same buffs and you don't have a buff advantage. Must really hate those balanced fair fights....
We also lost 3% haste and 25 quickness.
Before I had a swing speed of 1,77 seconds, after the nerf it is 1,99. That alone is a loss of 12,5%.
I have, fully buffed, 245 strength now. This includes aug str 5! This is laughable.
Don't tell me anything about fair fights. No online game is ever about fair fighting (ok maybe online chess). You always try to be in a better position than your opponents. Eve online has the saying that if you engage in a fair fight you've done something wrong.
And regarding that nothing has changed. People are just using different charges now than before to get an edge.

I will say to be fair they should have nerfed legion heart charges too. Now it sticks out even more as OP.
Thu 23 May 2019 9:28 AM by Citian
I vote that charge values be restored for assassins and archers and lowered further for visibles due to their innate utilities baked into each of their individual classes.

But for real though.

Movement pots should be created.

Make charge NF charge and give heavy tanks AoM9 at 35.

Amnesia should have its range lowered to 1875 or remain the same and have its speed drop removed.

Tanglers should have 1hp and an increased cast time via the pets casting speed and/or reduce its individual range to 500 for an effective reach of 1975-2000 rather than 2475-2500.

Remove mastery of the arcane except from main buffing classes.

Reduce the range of melee swings from a stationary or moving target to reflect factual placement of two models.

Fix whatever is wrong with stealth detection vs level of stealth vs level of character.

Give hibernia a portal into briefine by the Y or the nearest keep they control, even into emain at DC.

Otherwise the buff change is great and reflects honor upon your families. Noone is any more worse off and it is a QoL change to use one thing versus several: math dictates. Should other charges be tweaked or removed because now they represent more thought and button pushing? Possibly. Probably not though.

These other changes I mentioned are just to fix other blatant holes that are brought up and quickly buried under more meaningless garbage. Will it happen again? Oh boy, I am on the edge of my seat.
Thu 23 May 2019 4:00 PM by Juanito
So after trying this (bs) for a few days, now that you see that you basically gave 1 druid out of 2 free insta root / insta aoeroots and a real pet, any changes in the pipe or what ?
Thu 23 May 2019 8:25 PM by gotwqqd
I’d like to see 90% pots of this type available for all levels sold by npc
Sat 25 May 2019 12:28 AM by Kappu
People are still in here bitching?!? Shouldn't you have moved to Canada by now.....
Fri 31 May 2019 6:41 PM by suicide19
You cannot claim this was a game-wide improvement. The charge buff nerf, did nerf quite a few people, not just soloer's.

Relatively speaking it further increased the disparity between MID and Alb/Hib with regards to buff classes. You could go a run or two without a shaman and rely on charge buffs, but now you are that much worse vs. a group with a single druid or single cleric (main heals AND main buffer).

Smallmans got really nerfed. If you like 2-3 manning you are much weaker. Even 4 manning is tough for Mid vs. Hib. I know Phoenix isn't about catering to 8-manning and they appear to try in many cases to promote participation by all in Realm vs. Realm activity. But this change (thoiugh seemingly a QoL improvement) weakened many players who like to RvR in a more impromptu manner (unplanned, not staying glued to PK until all slots filled by perfect role/perfect spec).

I don't think the QoL improvements were worth this? Usually QoL improves everyone this certainly did not do that.
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