Let Archers spec Mastery of Stealth for detection

title^

Fri 19 Apr 2019 6:49 PM by Glimmer

Just make assassins weaker, no need to buff archers then 90% of population will be happy.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 1:53 AM by Turano

hahaha .. no
the moment this shit would be on the server it's game over for all solo stealthers

Mon 22 Apr 2019 12:31 PM by stinsfire

Turano wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 1:53 AM
hahaha .. no
the moment this shit would be on the server it's game over for all solo stealthers

It already is. Stealth groups are really popular on here and I hardly ever fight a solo stealther. I don't really understand what is actually enjoyable about camping a pk and then minstrel stunning a single enemy and then usiing 3 PAs on him at the same time. Sounds as much fun as killing greys.

As someone in another thread said:

Seriously, I can count the number of solo albs stealths I encounter on a daily basis usually on no hands.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 2:28 PM by Sindralor

Give Scouts a shotgun too

Tue 23 Apr 2019 12:28 AM by Turano

stinsfire wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 12:31 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 1:53 AM
hahaha .. no
the moment this shit would be on the server it's game over for all solo stealthers

It already is. Stealth groups are really popular on here and I hardly ever fight a solo stealther. I don't really understand what is actually enjoyable about camping a pk and then minstrel stunning a single enemy and then usiing 3 PAs on him at the same time. Sounds as much fun as killing greys.

As someone in another thread said:
Seriously, I can count the number of solo albs stealths I encounter on a daily basis usually on no hands.

I have no problem finding solo stealthers.
But of course you have to look somewhere far away from Emain

Tue 23 Apr 2019 5:32 AM by Lillebror

Complane about adding and you fight outside a PK...

ofc Archers should be more on even footing with Assassins when it comes to stealth.

make MoS possible to spec, and Assassin used to stop at 3 and archers went to 5 (when 5 was max)

Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:14 PM by Turano

We got the silly See hidden/true sight ra's with classic
Then the stealthers hoped for it to be gone just to get an even worse system with MoS
The only ones that would benefit from that detection component being added in would be the stealth zerger, and I honestly don't think this particular group of players needs any buffing

Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:22 PM by Sepplord

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:14 PM
We got the silly See hidden/true sight ra's with classic
Then the stealthers hoped for it to be gone just to get an even worse system with MoS
The only ones that would benefit from that detection component being added in would be the stealth zerger, and I honestly don't think this particular group of players needs any buffing

All visibles also indirectly benefit, by all stealthers having to spend RAs on MoS...on top of the stealthzergs that can farm even easier with a MOS9-bot. Imo stealthers that want MOS-detection on phoenix haven't thought the consequences through, or are stealthzergers themselves...

Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:28 PM by cere2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:22 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:14 PM
We got the silly See hidden/true sight ra's with classic
Then the stealthers hoped for it to be gone just to get an even worse system with MoS
The only ones that would benefit from that detection component being added in would be the stealth zerger, and I honestly don't think this particular group of players needs any buffing

All visibles also indirectly benefit, by all stealthers having to spend RAs on MoS...on top of the stealthzergs that can farm even easier with a MOS9-bot. Imo stealthers that want MOS-detection on phoenix haven't thought the consequences through, or are stealthzergers themselves...

It's as if none of you played Live. I hate stealthzerg's. Bibyfly and crew on alb on Live was a pain in the bottom. But you know what, people would say where they were at...some stealthers would be around and pop them in front of visi groups etc and laugh as they all /released.

Do you think anything would be different if nothing changes? Like stealth groups won't be a thing?
Sorry but whether MOS is something or it's not, your still dying to stealth zerg whether your a 3 man or solo.

From what I can see, only players against changing the stealth detection are those who main assassin's. No surprise there. As none of them are willing to give any of the offensive RA's they train now.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 4:33 PM by Turano

cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:28 PM
It's as if none of you played Live. I hate stealthzerg's. Bibyfly and crew on alb on Live was a pain in the bottom. But you know what, people would say where they were at...some stealthers would be around and pop them in front of visi groups etc and laugh as they all /released.

Do you think anything would be different if nothing changes? Like stealth groups won't be a thing?
Sorry but whether MOS is something or it's not, your still dying to stealth zerg whether your a 3 man or solo.

From what I can see, only players against changing the stealth detection are those who main assassin's. No surprise there. As none of them are willing to give any of the offensive RA's they train now.

I played live, mostly classic to toa, then after nf with larger brakes. I played both assa and archer with the MoS system and it sucks on both ends.

Of course will stealth zerg never be gone, neither with nor without detection ra's.
But with detections a solo has nö chance to avoid the zerg. With or without, they first have to find you before they can zerg you. But with detection the range in which you are visible to them is like 10-20 times larger.
I don't know if you have noticed, but we are playing old frontiers and there are choke points called mile gates where everyone, solo or not, has to pass through.
I with you a lot of fun in trying that against a team of MoS stealthers.
So yes, the only one that can possibly want that is a stealth zergling or has simply nö idea of the implications

Tue 23 Apr 2019 4:58 PM by cere2

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 4:33 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:28 PM
It's as if none of you played Live. I hate stealthzerg's. Bibyfly and crew on alb on Live was a pain in the bottom. But you know what, people would say where they were at...some stealthers would be around and pop them in front of visi groups etc and laugh as they all /released.

Do you think anything would be different if nothing changes? Like stealth groups won't be a thing?
Sorry but whether MOS is something or it's not, your still dying to stealth zerg whether your a 3 man or solo.

From what I can see, only players against changing the stealth detection are those who main assassin's. No surprise there. As none of them are willing to give any of the offensive RA's they train now.
I played live, mostly classic to toa, then after nf with larger brakes. I played both assa and archer with the MoS system and it sucks on both ends.

Of course will stealth zerg never be gone, neither with nor without detection ra's.
But with detections a solo has nö chance to avoid the zerg. With or without, they first have to find you before they can zerg you. But with detection the range in which you are visible to them is like 10-20 times larger.
I don't know if you have noticed, but we are playing old frontiers and there are choke points called mile gates where everyone, solo or not, has to pass through.
I with you a lot of fun in trying that against a team of MoS stealthers.
So yes, the only one that can possibly want that is a stealth zergling or has simply nö idea of the implications

What implications? 10-20 times larger? LOL no way you played during that time then. Unless your talking about seeing lvl 10's with zero stealth. Seriously, if you want to debate something don't throw out garbage "facts" that have zero chance of being true to anyone that played this game. Only time you saw farther than maybe 750 units was if you had used an SL charge from an item. Past that, unless someone had little to no stealth trained we all saw each other typically at 500-600 units. Someone with MOS9 saw someone with MOS1 at maybe 800 units? But most of us accepted that at RR1 we needed to get MOS to compete with RR6's etc...derp.

So with detection a solo has no chance to avoid a stealth zerg? What chance do you have now? Do you see them so far away and they don't see you because all stealth zergs don't include assassin's? I mean are you serious?
So anyone that wants MOS the way it was is a stealth zergling?
Or perhaps this is another assassin playing that they "know how it is" to be an archer since they played one in 2003.
See, I can project too!

Tue 23 Apr 2019 5:01 PM by Tamy

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:22 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:14 PM
We got the silly See hidden/true sight ra's with classic
Then the stealthers hoped for it to be gone just to get an even worse system with MoS
The only ones that would benefit from that detection component being added in would be the stealth zerger, and I honestly don't think this particular group of players needs any buffing

All visibles also indirectly benefit, by all stealthers having to spend RAs on MoS...on top of the stealthzergs that can farm even easier with a MOS9-bot. Imo stealthers that want MOS-detection on phoenix haven't thought the consequences through, or are stealthzergers themselves...

/agree100%

Just get rid of the stealth advantage for sins...that's just ridicolous.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 5:51 PM by Turano

cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 4:58 PM
So with detection a solo has no chance to avoid a stealth zerg? What chance do you have now? Do you see them so far away and they don't see you because all stealth zergs don't include assassin's? I mean are you serious?

And that is where your mistake is. You think to avoid them you have to see them. But you don't. You just don't have to be seen yourself and that is what stealth is for. I know the theoretical detection range is 125/250 units. But that "stealth bubble" is not checked instantly but in pulses. And that pulse makes the big difference. With the current system 2 stealthers can pass each other, see a glimbse of the other for half a second and never find each other again.
That means the practical detection range is way shorter than 125/250 units.
With a detection range of 600-800 units that mechanic is simply gone, you have no chance of leaving the detection radius before the other Has A hard lock on you. And with that camped gates become unpassable

Tue 23 Apr 2019 5:59 PM by cere2

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 5:51 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 4:58 PM
So with detection a solo has no chance to avoid a stealth zerg? What chance do you have now? Do you see them so far away and they don't see you because all stealth zergs don't include assassin's? I mean are you serious?
And that is where your mistake is. You think to avoid them you have to see them. But you don't. You just don't have to be seen yourself and that is what stealth is for. I know the theoretical detection range is 125/250 units. But that "stealth bubble" is not checked instantly but in pulses. And that pulse makes the big difference. With the current system 2 stealthers can pass each other, see a glimbse of the other for half a second and never find each other again.
That means the practical detection range is way shorter than 125/250 units.
With a detection range of 600-800 units that mechanic is simply gone, you have no chance of leaving the detection radius before the other Has A hard lock on you. And with that camped gates become unpassable

So, your saying if a stealthzerg is camping a MG and with detection the way it is now, your getting passed it as a stealther?
I'll say maybe, and that's a big maybe...if your an assassin. Not happening if your an archer. So here we are back at square 1.
Most likely outcome is that if you encounter a stealth group as a solo you going to die.
But adding MOS with detection might make all other stealth classes at more even scales.
I mean leaving it how it is now is great if your an assassin, archers are mostly free rps. I can totally get why assassin's don't want a change..

Tue 23 Apr 2019 6:08 PM by Auranyte

Am I the only one that remembers being used to Stealth Zergs rolling through both OF and NF? I see all of this complaining about archers been too easily seen on this server, yet I remember it being worse on live during ToA/NF. (Keep in mind I understand that stealth detection on a whole seems broken on this server, what with grey cons spotting stealthers from /follow distance easily) Can't tell you how often I had to relocate where I was hunting people because the alb RR8/9 Stealth group from my server cleared me out while I was playing my shade or ranger. I kinda miss the old Stiles and Stelmar group at times, they would atleast sweep an area and cause the other stealthers to spread elsewhere.

That being said, I am all for bringing back MoStealth as an RA again for archers and assassins.(And the whole original stealth system) It will make most spec into it and we will have less people running around with high levels of vanish/viper/purge because those points are now needed in MoStealth. Dodger is another RA most assassins spent points on that are now going to vanish/viper/purge.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 6:21 PM by Turano

It 's not a maybe, it is a fact. Have done it myself, many others (yes rangers as well) have done it.
With enhanced detection range that will be gone and the zerg wins.
It's the same old discussions over and over again.
I had them with the introduction of realm abilities, with the first changes to see hidden, with the introduction of camouflage, with toa's 10 minute stealth lore buffs and the nessessary nerfs of it.
Then all changed with new frontiers. In the first beta tests people were happy. Sh and ts were gone and MoS was only stealth walking speed.
Then they gave US passive stealth detection with MoS and everything was worse than before.
The only thing that saved the stealth game back then was that the mile gates were gone. If they bring new frontiers MoS to old frontiers they kill the solo stealthers with it.
And there are many soloers around, every day in every zone and from every realm.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 10:07 PM by cere2

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 6:21 PM
It 's not a maybe, it is a fact. Have done it myself, many others (yes rangers as well) have done it.
With enhanced detection range that will be gone and the zerg wins.
It's the same old discussions over and over again.
I had them with the introduction of realm abilities, with the first changes to see hidden, with the introduction of camouflage, with toa's 10 minute stealth lore buffs and the nessessary nerfs of it.
Then all changed with new frontiers. In the first beta tests people were happy. Sh and ts were gone and MoS was only stealth walking speed.
Then they gave US passive stealth detection with MoS and everything was worse than before.
The only thing that saved the stealth game back then was that the mile gates were gone. If they bring new frontiers MoS to old frontiers they kill the solo stealthers with it.
And there are many soloers around, every day in every zone and from every realm.

Fact? Show me a video of it then, otherwise I call BS. No ranger is walking anywhere near an assassin and not being seen. If stealth zerg is camping MG they are camping the archway and the stairs, only time they move is if a fg of visis are inc. That's when you get through. Not when they are camping all areas of possibility.

And what beta are you referring to? Phoenix beta? What beta had NF? And when did they give assassins passive stealth detection with MOS only? Where are you pulling this info from? RA's came in patch 1.5...the Old RA's....camo was brought in 1.52...weird stuff you are saying here that I have never heard of. I'd like to see some patch note reference to these claims.

For all that need a refresher on what MOS was here ya go.
Type: Passive
Level 1: 1
Level 2: 1
Level 3: 2
Level 4: 3
Level 5: 3
Level 6: 5
Level 7: 5
Level 8: 7
Level 9: 7
Description:
Modifies stealth detection and stealth movement. Camouflage counters the Mastery of Stealth bonus, allowing an archer to only be seen at the normal range. Doesn't affect detect hidden classes when they are detecting other detect hidden classes. (Meaning it has no affect on assassins detecting assassins.)

Increase:
+ Rank 1: 10% detection, 75 radius
+ Rank 2: 15% detection, 125 radius
+ Rank 3: 20% detection, 175 radius
+ Rank 4: 25% detection, 235 radius
+ Rank 5: 30% detection, 300 radius
+ Rank 6: 35% detection, 375 radius
+ Rank 7: 40% detection, 450 radius
+ Rank 8: 45% detection, 535 radius
+ Rank 9: 50% detection, 625 radius

And sorry but Minstrel's did not have access to this ability.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 10:16 PM by lourock

This was voted on during beta apparently. I have a feeling that Assassin players greatly outnumbered archer enthusiasts during beta. I do not know what archer in his right mind would vote to have the same stealth detection as a speed5, chain wearing , red pet having, mezzing/stunning minstrel.

Wed 24 Apr 2019 6:08 AM by Sepplord

lourock wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 10:16 PM
This was voted on during beta apparently. I have a feeling that Assassin players greatly outnumbered archer enthusiasts during beta. I do not know what archer in his right mind would vote to have the same stealth detection as a speed5, chain wearing , red pet having, mezzing/stunning minstrel.

archers have better stealth than minstrels

Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:41 AM by inoeth

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:14 PM
We got the silly See hidden/true sight ra's with classic
Then the stealthers hoped for it to be gone just to get an even worse system with MoS
The only ones that would benefit from that detection component being added in would be the stealth zerger, and I honestly don't think this particular group of players needs any buffing

disagree!!

it was really nice to have it as a solo hunter, now i could actually "hunt" down any stealther