placing shrooms on top of keep walls

currently it is possible to place shrooms up on a keep wall from below. this is - of course - meant from outside the keep as an attacker.
intended ot not?

first of all this is just question. it may lead to a discussion, but I really just want it to be clarified. :p

Thu 18 Apr 2019 12:07 PM by Ashok

Placing shrooms inside a keep while another realm controls that keep should not be possible.

"Inside a keep" is defined by:
Placing on battlements while outer keep door(s) are closed + the Animist is outside.
Placing inside main keep while inner door is closed.

In case you see something that does not fit that explanation, please report it as bug https://tracker.playphoenix.online/issues

Thu 18 Apr 2019 2:37 PM by Expfighter

Ashok wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 12:07 PM
Placing shrooms inside a keep while another realm controls that keep should not be possible.

"Inside a keep" is defined by:
Placing on battlements while outer keep door(s) are closed + the Animist is outside.
Placing inside main keep while inner door is closed.

In case you see something that does not fit that explanation, please report it as bug https://tracker.playphoenix.online/issues

Happened at Beno 2 days ago, albs were taking Beno and on the Lord when a fruity gaggle of hibs showed up with 93, albs had 95 inside, and within seconds of hibs getting there the shrooms were on the front walkway inside beno nuking everyone down where you could NOT defend the front of the keep. it was mentioned many times during the siege to appeal, i have appealed many times in the past and told to provide evidence and that the gm doesnt see shrooms on the inside, yea that was 2 hours later.

hibs have exploited this on alb keeps MANY times.

Thu 18 Apr 2019 3:05 PM by

Uthred

/servernews from today (April 18th)

- fixed shroom prevention near enemy keeps, it was doing exactly the opposite of what was intended. Intention: do not allow shrooms within a certain radius of an enemy keep until the outer door (or both in case of the double door keeps) is down. Behavior before this fix: only allow shrooms within this forbidden radius

--> https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=7770

Thu 18 Apr 2019 3:48 PM by Menfany

but even with this change.. it shouldnt be possible to place shrooms without LoS..

in fact.. we had several keep fights lately where shrooms were placed on the marked spot from OUTSIDE the keep.. which shouldnt be possible right? No matter the 1.door is open or not..
https://ibb.co/x2ZvZQs

Thu 18 Apr 2019 6:53 PM by Menfany

ok we had a keep fight right now at Dun Bolg.. this is the proof of placing shrooms on top of wall.. behind railing.. where the animists CANT have LoS from outside

https://ibb.co/N1MqRK1

Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:39 PM by Auranyte

Menfany wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 6:53 PM
ok we had a keep fight right now at Dun Bolg.. this is the proof of placing shrooms on top of wall.. behind railing.. where the animists CANT have LoS from outside

https://ibb.co/N1MqRK1

Ok that looks like a snapping issue with where the server decides the pet is placed, not the animist. I'm pretty sure the animist is putting their ground target on the lip to the right of the shrooms on the screenshot. The server pathing(?) is making the shrooms appear in the spot in question, because the lip is not big enough to hold the shroom ontop of it.

I remember those lips not being a valid ground target spot in the old days, as most animists would have to put their ground target on top of the wall climbspots since they were wide/big enough to hold the shroom. I recall a similar issue with Mid keeps and being able to put them on top of the lip but not between the "arrow slots".

Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:53 PM by Menfany

Auranyte wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:39 PM
Menfany wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 6:53 PM
ok we had a keep fight right now at Dun Bolg.. this is the proof of placing shrooms on top of wall.. behind railing.. where the animists CANT have LoS from outside

https://ibb.co/N1MqRK1

Ok that looks like a snapping issue with where the server decides the pet is placed, not the animist. I'm pretty sure the animist is putting their ground target on the lip to the right of the shrooms on the screenshot. The server pathing(?) is making the shrooms appear in the spot in question, because the lip is not big enough to hold the shroom ontop of it.

I remember those lips not being a valid ground target spot in the old days, as most animists would have to put their ground target on top of the wall climbspots since they were wide/big enough to hold the shroom. I recall a similar issue with Mid keeps and being able to put them on top of the lip but not between the "arrow slots".

the question is.. why i try this as animist?
only if i know exactly this will happen.. so its bugusing. right?

Thu 18 Apr 2019 9:05 PM by Auranyte

Menfany wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:53 PM
Auranyte wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:39 PM
Menfany wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 6:53 PM
ok we had a keep fight right now at Dun Bolg.. this is the proof of placing shrooms on top of wall.. behind railing.. where the animists CANT have LoS from outside

https://ibb.co/N1MqRK1

Ok that looks like a snapping issue with where the server decides the pet is placed, not the animist. I'm pretty sure the animist is putting their ground target on the lip to the right of the shrooms on the screenshot. The server pathing(?) is making the shrooms appear in the spot in question, because the lip is not big enough to hold the shroom ontop of it.

I remember those lips not being a valid ground target spot in the old days, as most animists would have to put their ground target on top of the wall climbspots since they were wide/big enough to hold the shroom. I recall a similar issue with Mid keeps and being able to put them on top of the lip but not between the "arrow slots".
the question is.. why i try this as animist?
only if i know exactly this will happen.. so its bugusing. right?

At this point it could be considered that yes (depends on the Devs). Especially if there was/is code to prevent an animist from putting it up there at certain times. I do not know if the doors were down in that SS you posted or not. But to recap. Animist has LoS to his ground target on top of that lip. The server is spawning/snapping the shrooms he is casting to that spot out of LoS. So it will depend on if the devs feel that those lips should not be a valid ground target.

That being said theres a fake climb spot over near where the person is standing in the SS that an animist could also put shrooms and clear out that corner of the keep without "abusing" anything.

Thu 18 Apr 2019 9:53 PM by

gruenesschaf

It's actually the client that "decides" where the shroom was placed, well rendered. If you put it in a position the client deems invalid, the client will show it at the nearest valid position whereas the server will have it exactly where it was actually placed and los will be from the actual / server position.

Thu 18 Apr 2019 10:00 PM by Auranyte

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 9:53 PM
It's actually the client that "decides" where the shroom was placed, well rendered. If you put it in a position the client deems invalid, the client will show it at the nearest valid position whereas the server will have it exactly where it was actually placed and los will be from the actual / server position.

Always thought that was server side.. So In this case, could it be possible for the animist to see his shroom on the lip, while the others see it behind the lip?

Thu 18 Apr 2019 10:18 PM by

gruenesschaf

No, everyone will see it at the same place but that might not be the actual position, the server might have it on the lip but every client will render it behind it. For all intents and purposes it then is on the lip as for functionality only the server position matters.

Thu 18 Apr 2019 11:19 PM by Menfany

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 10:18 PM
No, everyone will see it at the same place but that might not be the actual position, the server might have it on the lip but every client will render it behind it. For all intents and purposes it then is on the lip as for functionality only the server position matters.

in my opinion.. it dosent matter WHERE the shroom is rendered..
Important is.. WHY they do dmg?
if only the rendered shroom is inside the keep.. but the point where the dmg goes off from is at the point an animist have LoS to.. it shouldnt do dmg inside the keep right? but in fact it does..

And even you "cast the shroom in the air"..and he gets rendered on the next possible ground texture..
Should THIS the way you want shrooms to be used?
Place them "around the corner"?

I have a suggestion for a solution..
Make shrooms check every 10sec having LoS to their caster... like you did with the LoS check of the necro pet..
If the shrooms get placed on a point where the animist can see them.. fine.
If not.. selfdestruct.
Should not harm animists too much while PvE.. and on open field RvR too..

Fri 19 Apr 2019 12:45 AM by dbeattie71

Auranyte wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:39 PM
Menfany wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 6:53 PM
ok we had a keep fight right now at Dun Bolg.. this is the proof of placing shrooms on top of wall.. behind railing.. where the animists CANT have LoS from outside

https://ibb.co/N1MqRK1

Ok that looks like a snapping issue with where the server decides the pet is placed, not the animist. I'm pretty sure the animist is putting their ground target on the lip to the right of the shrooms on the screenshot. The server pathing(?) is making the shrooms appear in the spot in question, because the lip is not big enough to hold the shroom ontop of it.

I remember those lips not being a valid ground target spot in the old days, as most animists would have to put their ground target on top of the wall climbspots since they were wide/big enough to hold the shroom. I recall a similar issue with Mid keeps and being able to put them on top of the lip but not between the "arrow slots".

I’ve put a shroom down where the GT is on the ground and can’t find the shroom. Ended up being in the room above the mile gate, wtf. So people complain a lot but Anis are trying to find a scrap of dirt to put a shroom on, if there aren’t already 14 of course and sometimes they don’t even show up on the GT.

Fri 19 Apr 2019 8:30 AM by Menfany

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Apr 2019 12:45 AM
Auranyte wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:39 PM
Menfany wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 6:53 PM
ok we had a keep fight right now at Dun Bolg.. this is the proof of placing shrooms on top of wall.. behind railing.. where the animists CANT have LoS from outside

https://ibb.co/N1MqRK1

Ok that looks like a snapping issue with where the server decides the pet is placed, not the animist. I'm pretty sure the animist is putting their ground target on the lip to the right of the shrooms on the screenshot. The server pathing(?) is making the shrooms appear in the spot in question, because the lip is not big enough to hold the shroom ontop of it.

I remember those lips not being a valid ground target spot in the old days, as most animists would have to put their ground target on top of the wall climbspots since they were wide/big enough to hold the shroom. I recall a similar issue with Mid keeps and being able to put them on top of the lip but not between the "arrow slots".

I’ve put a shroom down where the GT is on the ground and can’t find the shroom. Ended up being in the room above the mile gate, wtf. So people complain a lot but Anis are trying to find a scrap of dirt to put a shroom on, if there aren’t already 14 of course and sometimes they don’t even show up on the GT.

I will not accuse every animist to try this "on purpose".. and i can understand its hard to put shrooms when there are 5+ animists around..
but atm shrooms are the biggest problem for attacker/defender at keeps... because they cast through walls and be placed on points you are normaly safe at.

and to pick up your "problem" with casting a shroom on an GT.. and he appears in the room above.
If the devs pick up my solution to "selfdestruct" shrooms after a few seconds if they have no LoS to their caster.. it should solve this problem.

Fri 19 Apr 2019 1:29 PM by Menfany

ok.. i made an Animist and reproduced the GT setting to put shrooms on walls.. without to have LoS to them..

Its pretty easy.. you cast them "in the air" above the wall.. and they will created at the nearest ground under them.

So another solution would be.. check ground structures near GT when casting.. no structure near GT should not allow to cast them
..which would probably "passed by" by placing them on the "side" of an tower... but still would make it way harder then its right now

Fri 19 Apr 2019 5:40 PM by Expfighter

Menfany wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Apr 2019 1:29 PM
ok.. i made an Animist and reproduced the GT setting to put shrooms on walls.. without to have LoS to them..

Its pretty easy.. you cast them "in the air" above the wall.. and they will created at the nearest ground under them.

So another solution would be.. check ground structures near GT when casting.. no structure near GT should not allow to cast them
..which would probably "passed by" by placing them on the "side" of an tower... but still would make it way harder then its right now

Better idea, put a large radius around all keeps where shrooms can't be cast at all, make it go to the outer edge of the plateau where the keep is.

That will solve the problem, won't hurt the shroomers too much, they have their bombers/aoe bombers that go thru doors and stack before exploding!

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:07 AM by dbeattie71

Expfighter wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Apr 2019 5:40 PM
Menfany wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Apr 2019 1:29 PM
ok.. i made an Animist and reproduced the GT setting to put shrooms on walls.. without to have LoS to them..

Its pretty easy.. you cast them "in the air" above the wall.. and they will created at the nearest ground under them.

So another solution would be.. check ground structures near GT when casting.. no structure near GT should not allow to cast them
..which would probably "passed by" by placing them on the "side" of an tower... but still would make it way harder then its right now

Better idea, put a large radius around all keeps where shrooms can't be cast at all, make it go to the outer edge of the plateau where the keep is.

That will solve the problem, won't hurt the shroomers too much, they have their bombers/aoe bombers that go thru doors and stack before exploding!

I don’t bother doing keep stuff since I’m to dumb and can’t figure out where I can put shrooms down. I had a thid Ani and got yelled at by a GM because my shrooms were damaging people through the walls. To me the shrooms looked fine but the GM said they were in the wall. After that I haven’t been near a keep with my Ani, don’t want to risk getting banned because and alb noob died. Best part was when the GM was verbally undressing me I died to thurg pets that came through the door.

Just implement the logic for leaving a pk when a relic is in play for Animists trying to go near a keep but without a timer lmao.