Suggestion: One of three to help Wardens

Acorny Treepun here! And after talking to my guild and several wardens I want to ask if it was possible to change wardens with one of several changes they made in the original game. The three changes I'd like to discuss are:

Changing the warden's damage table
Shield Spec
Celerity

All three of these were changes on live and I'd like to have a civil discussion about them. Right now, wardens do not have problems getting groups like I assume was the issue with friars, but the class is semi-pigeonholed into one spec to be viable in said groups. The general spec is 49 nurture, 42 regrowth, and at least 10 blades for the side snare (rest parry).

Changing the warden's damage table: Probably the one that would make the biggest difference to solo wardens, is having the warden on a higher damage table. Right now, the warden is on the same damage table as the druid and, with the damage add, my druid does more damage than my warden. With the addition of the druid's pet, this makes for a sad situation for the warden. Even bringing the damage up to similar hybrids would be helpful to the overall health of the class, as people would see higher blades or blunt as viable.

Shield Spec: Probably the most helpful change on live for wardens was shield spec. Most wardens never did go 42 for the anytimer, they did however go for the positionals which brought some fun and change to the speccing of wardens.

Celerity: Mids are going to hate me for this, but when albs and hibs gained celerity on live, it really helped with the overall condition of melee groups in those two realms. Right now, both Albs and Hibs are running mostly caster trains, whereas in Mid it's still deeply viable to run melee trains. This is VERY apparent in leveling groups where basically no one levels in a group unless they have a verdant animist in hib and melee is generally left to solo or take up "pulls/ social" spots.

To conclude, I just wanted to ask the devs to consider these changes that were made on live for the overall health of the class. Wardens are fun, and they bring a lot to a group, but as I stated they are pigeonholed into one specific spec. It would be very nice to have different specs be viable by doing one of the three changes requested.

Thank you for your consideration, Phoenix Community and I'll see you out there!

Tue 9 Apr 2019 1:44 PM by Dominus

excellent suggestions imho, and I do hope a civil discussion can be had.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 1:48 PM by Amp_Phetamine

IF anything were to be changed with Wardens, I'd be okay with upping their damage table.

This really wouldn't have much of an effect on the group specc'd Wardens as it's been previously stated they really only invest up to 10 blades for peeling.

This would give the rare person that desires to play a melee Warden a better option to do so.

Unfortunately for those requesting Warden changes, they're in a very good spot right now (group aspect) and the Dev's would have to consider ways if they choose to do so to increase their solo capability without resulting in an group performance aspect (which is why I think shield spec would push them over the top).

Tue 9 Apr 2019 1:57 PM by Ashenspire

Wardens are one of the strongest classes in the game right now in RvR. The game isn't balanced around solo play.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:04 PM by teiloh

Don't like the idea of homogenizing Celerity as was done on live. If Enchanters got a flat group + melee damage (up to 20-25% ish, final tier) in Enchantments I think that'd be enough.

For raising the damage table, there's really just no need for it. Wardens are a good enough solo class and can whittle people down with procs and their haste, which is a significant DPS boost. That said we cannot and should not be balancing around soloing.

For Shield spec, this would make them much stronger in groups and doesn't seem to be in the scope of the changes the team is pursuing right now imo.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:13 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Agree'd regarding balancing classes around solo play. We can take a look at Live and use the plethora of mistakes made there. No class should be balanced regarding their ability to solo (because in 99% cases this simply translates to an increased effectiveness in group play).

However that being said, IF anything were to be done to the Warden, and not that it really needs anything at all, the only thing I can see being functionally significant without drastically increasing the Wardens group utility would be bumping them up a damage table.

Of course if people truly are in love with the aspect of solo'ing on a melee Warden you can still do so. As other's have pointed out there are ways to supplement your damage through the use of procs dd's, dots and debuffs.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:15 PM by kedelin

As a mid I would be fine with wardens getting shield spec as long as they don't get more spec points... that way they have to give up buffs or heals toget shield... I will also say if they decide to do anything to wardens they should move pbaoe disease on shamans to level 17 instead of 27 so shamans have options to be able to spec more mend

Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:56 PM by speedr

I would personally like to see celerity on VW and increase the damage table of Wardens.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 3:00 PM by Amp_Phetamine

speedr wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 2:56 PM
I would personally like to see celerity on VW and increase the damage table of Wardens.

Celerity needs to stay on Midgard. Trust me, as much as I'd love to have Celerity on Paladins as well, let's not get that train rolling.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 3:13 PM by PingGuy

I think most people wouldn't be opposed to the damage table change. With that said, I think those same people wouldn't be opposed to leaving it how it is now.

My Warden is running 39 Blades for a solo spec, and the damage is kind of sad. To be fair, I didn't use any buff pots or charges, just the Warden's base buffs. But on the flip side, I am a Firbolg, and I think I put points into Strength at creation. If the increase was significant, then it might make a difference. Still I doubt it would make Warden's comparable to Skalds in solo battles, and due to how the classes are designed, it probably shouldn't anyway.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 4:56 PM by Bradekes

I have a Warden with 39blades 47nurt 20reg 14 parry.. He is celt with +15quick +10 str.. His DPS isn't horrible but he gets evaded/block/parried way too much.. He gets hit for very low damage most the time but high rank SB hit him very hard... Talking 150mh 80OH he has full SC capped melee resists.. He can take a beating but his dps is very bad with such low WS... I can't win hardly any 1vs1 vs templated classes.. I'm not sure why Warden is dubbed such a strong class as it is very lackluster... The only thing he can do okay is take a beating...

I think if they added a Weapon Skill buff like Vamp had to warden nurture line it would help a lot... Not going to suggest any delve value but something that will let the warden have any sort of defense pen would be welcome.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 5:47 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 4:56 PM
I have a Warden with 39blades 47nurt 20reg 14 parry.. He is celt with +15quick +10 str.. His DPS isn't horrible but he gets evaded/block/parried way too much.. He gets hit for very low damage most the time but high rank SB hit him very hard... Talking 150mh 80OH he has full SC capped melee resists.. He can take a beating but his dps is very bad with such low WS... I can't win hardly any 1vs1 vs templated classes..I'm not sure why Warden is dubbed such a strong class as it is very lackluster... The only thing he can do okay is take a beating...

I think if they added a Weapon Skill buff like Vamp had to warden nurture line it would help a lot... Not going to suggest any delve value but something that will let the warden have any sort of defense pen would be welcome.

The Warden isn't "dubbed" a strong solo class. It's dubbed an incredibly proficient and borderline over powered support class in 8man builds (that coming from the #1 Warden/Player on the server).

Class aren't (or shouldn't be) balanced around their capability to solo. That causes far too many issues.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 9:32 PM by Komaf

Of all three realms it's arguable to say Alb AND Hib have melee invite issues. Reavers might have more invites on Alb.... But I'll tell you no I've cares about BM's and Heroes for leveling - something that shows just how limiting this game is for "fun."

While this game is centered around RvR, ask any visible melee class about grouping to level on Hib and (unless they pay for PL)have friends) they might begin with a snarky comment. We need to get 50 before we can RvR, right? And, should we all just accept leveling more caster train groups? Getting old, isn't it?

Wardens having celerity would greatly affect the Hib player base. Melee groups would matter and we'd see more heterogeneous group builds that were functional xp groups.

For RvR this would add a great dynamic to an overtired, overplayed present state, RvR Hib model.

On a side note...Paladins should as well have celerity. But I'll leave that to the Alb forums.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 10:17 PM by stridberg

I'm all for seeing the warden damage table improved.

When it comes to the celerity/shield change it gets too close to making classes homogenized. I would personally like nothing less than seeing other realms get celerity, sorcs getting instants, bards getting cast amnesia etc.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 10:33 PM by Pirhana7

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 5:47 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 4:56 PM
I have a Warden with 39blades 47nurt 20reg 14 parry.. He is celt with +15quick +10 str.. His DPS isn't horrible but he gets evaded/block/parried way too much.. He gets hit for very low damage most the time but high rank SB hit him very hard... Talking 150mh 80OH he has full SC capped melee resists.. He can take a beating but his dps is very bad with such low WS... I can't win hardly any 1vs1 vs templated classes..I'm not sure why Warden is dubbed such a strong class as it is very lackluster... The only thing he can do okay is take a beating...

I think if they added a Weapon Skill buff like Vamp had to warden nurture line it would help a lot... Not going to suggest any delve value but something that will let the warden have any sort of defense pen would be welcome.

The Warden isn't "dubbed" a strong solo class. It's dubbed an incredibly proficient and borderline over powered support class in 8man builds (that coming from the #1 Warden/Player on the server).

Class aren't (or shouldn't be) balanced around their capability to solo. That causes far too many issues.

But classes are also suppose to have more than 1 spec option to be viable. Your right that classes aren't balanced around their ability to solo because it changes them in group play as well, BUT in the case of the Warden, this can be done without effecting or making the standard group spec any stronger, giving them an increased damage table would only open the door for more viable spec options in melee. It would only be a win win for balance.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 11:13 PM by Bradekes

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 5:47 PM
The Warden isn't "dubbed" a strong solo class. It's dubbed an incredibly proficient and borderline over powered support class in 8man builds (that coming from the #1 Warden/Player on the server).

Class aren't (or shouldn't be) balanced around their capability to solo. That causes far too many issues.

This is my experience with a melee specced Warden. You don't like melee Warden? Okay great, don't bring up support spec Warden then, because this thread isn't about you... If you enjoy standing back and healing and also feel sufficient in melee because you can interrupt a caster with it, great... I however do not enjoy your spec or I wouldn't be in this thread sharing my experience just to have someone like you pop in and try to invalidate it because you feel I am playing the class wrong.

Warden needs help in an area they are meant to spec in, if they weren't why give them Haste self buff or endo reduc? Those are both pointing towards an idea that Warden are meant to spec melee to some amount and should be at least competent with it.

Every realm has PBT or I might agree that Warden are even close to OP...

Tue 9 Apr 2019 11:43 PM by Riac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 11:13 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 5:47 PM
The Warden isn't "dubbed" a strong solo class. It's dubbed an incredibly proficient and borderline over powered support class in 8man builds (that coming from the #1 Warden/Player on the server).

Class aren't (or shouldn't be) balanced around their capability to solo. That causes far too many issues.

This is my experience with a melee specced Warden. You don't like melee Warden? Okay great, don't bring up support spec Warden then, because this thread isn't about you... If you enjoy standing back and healing and also feel sufficient in melee because you can interrupt a caster with it, great... I however do not enjoy your spec or I wouldn't be in this thread sharing my experience just to have someone like you pop in and try to invalidate it because you feel I am playing the class wrong.

Warden needs help in an area they are meant to spec in, if they weren't why give them Haste self buff or endo reduc? Those are both pointing towards an idea that Warden are meant to spec melee to some amount and should be at least competent with it.

Every realm has PBT or I might agree that Warden are even close to OP...

maybe they get haste buff and endo regen because they attack for so little. if youre going to hit for a little bit you might as well swing a lot. (i dont think wardens need buffs, last thing i want to see are battle wardens with lifetap rogs weaps and pbt trying to solo at the mgs.) nature druids get dmg adds and dmg shields. both of those abilities are pointing twds a druid wanting to get involved in a sort of melee brawl, should we up their dmg table also?

i also enjoy the line were you say "i wouldnt be in this thread sharing my experience just to have someone like you pop in and try and invalidate it because you feel im playing my class wrong" because thats all you do in the sb threads.

just because you dont enjoy a classes strongest spec in the meta doesnt mean they should make the other specs stronger to accommodate you, everything has its niche.

i leave you with on my favorite quotes ppl say "if you dont like it here, go back to live"

Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:19 AM by Bradekes

Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 11:43 PM
nature druids get dmg adds and dmg shields. both of those abilities are pointing twds a druid wanting to get involved in a sort of melee brawl, should we up their dmg table also?

i also enjoy the line were you say "i wouldnt be in this thread sharing my experience just to have someone like you pop in and try and invalidate it because you feel im playing my class wrong" because thats all you do in the sb threads.

just because you dont enjoy a classes strongest spec in the meta doesnt mean they should make the other specs stronger to accommodate you, everything has its niche.

i leave you with on my favorite quotes ppl say "if you dont like it here, go back to live"

Nature druid don't have melee spec... And I never said you were playing SB wrong, I said they are not hurting as they do great damage and I also pointed to some suggestions to resolving their discrepancy vs ns.

And the Meta won't be affected by a change like this... Also why would you be scared of Warden? SB tear them up no contest...

And when I did play live Warden were melee competent... I'd go play that version of live if it were still around but it's not... And there are plenty of people that miss their melee Warden

Also you bring no suggestions only hate.. just like every post you write

Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:39 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:19 AM
Nature druid don't have melee spec... And I never said you were playing SB wrong, I said they are not hurting as they do great damage and I also pointed to some suggestions to resolving their discrepancy vs ns.

And the Meta won't be affected by a change like this... Also why would you be scared of Warden? SB tear them up no contest...

And when I did play live Warden were melee competent... I'd go play that version of live if it were still around but it's not... And there are plenty of people that miss their melee Warden

Also you bring no suggestions only hate.. just like every post you write

There are tons of changes that "wouldn't affect the meta" and still probably won't be put in the game. Wardens simply don't need a WS table raise. Yes, it'd be nice, but lots of people want lots of things. Particularly with a WS increase, Wardens don't need to be better peelers than they already are.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:54 AM by Riac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:19 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 11:43 PM
nature druids get dmg adds and dmg shields. both of those abilities are pointing twds a druid wanting to get involved in a sort of melee brawl, should we up their dmg table also?

i also enjoy the line were you say "i wouldnt be in this thread sharing my experience just to have someone like you pop in and try and invalidate it because you feel im playing my class wrong" because thats all you do in the sb threads.

just because you dont enjoy a classes strongest spec in the meta doesnt mean they should make the other specs stronger to accommodate you, everything has its niche.

i leave you with on my favorite quotes ppl say "if you dont like it here, go back to live"

Nature druid don't have melee spec... And I never said you were playing SB wrong, I said they are not hurting as they do great damage and I also pointed to some suggestions to resolving their discrepancy vs ns.

And the Meta won't be affected by a change like this... Also why would you be scared of Warden? SB tear them up no contest...

And when I did play live Warden were melee competent... I'd go play that version of live if it were still around but it's not... And there are plenty of people that miss their melee Warden

Also you bring no suggestions only hate.. just like every post you write

but they do have a dmg add, does this not imply they should be doing decent melee damage?

i do believe you are one of the ppl that point to the success of some sbs saying they are fine, the implication being you are not doing as they are doing therefore you are playing wrong.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 4:01 AM by dansari

To me it doesn't make sense to give Warden celerity, though you do have to acknowledge the lack of diverse options hib rvr groups have. A damage table bump is probably the easiest, safest option, with shield spec being the next. We have started to get into the intricacies of class specs... Every class should have at least a couple of viable build options. If Wardens, or any class, is being pidgeonholed into one build path, something should change.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 10:24 AM by Bradekes

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:54 AM
but they do have a dmg add, does this not imply they should be doing decent melee damage?

i do believe you are one of the ppl that point to the success of some sbs saying they are fine, the implication being you are not doing as they are doing therefore you are playing wrong.

I've experienced fighting SB, never did I get the idea they were lacking and I'm non judgemental I like fair fights.. Can you say the same about fighting a warden? Did you get stomped?? If you had unbiased opinions I'd listen..

A SB hit my warden for 150mh 80oh I'm not seeing where they are lacking buddy.. My warden has full resists and scale armor... He was also doing more damage than my 4.4spd 1h with his mh.. With or without me being debuffed.. That's despite us both being slash vuln and me having 17% more abs and full str base buff..

Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:46 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 10:33 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 5:47 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 4:56 PM
I have a Warden with 39blades 47nurt 20reg 14 parry.. He is celt with +15quick +10 str.. His DPS isn't horrible but he gets evaded/block/parried way too much.. He gets hit for very low damage most the time but high rank SB hit him very hard... Talking 150mh 80OH he has full SC capped melee resists.. He can take a beating but his dps is very bad with such low WS... I can't win hardly any 1vs1 vs templated classes..I'm not sure why Warden is dubbed such a strong class as it is very lackluster... The only thing he can do okay is take a beating...

I think if they added a Weapon Skill buff like Vamp had to warden nurture line it would help a lot... Not going to suggest any delve value but something that will let the warden have any sort of defense pen would be welcome.

The Warden isn't "dubbed" a strong solo class. It's dubbed an incredibly proficient and borderline over powered support class in 8man builds (that coming from the #1 Warden/Player on the server).

Class aren't (or shouldn't be) balanced around their capability to solo. That causes far too many issues.

But classes are also suppose to have more than 1 spec option to be viable. Your right that classes aren't balanced around their ability to solo because it changes them in group play as well, BUT in the case of the Warden, this can be done without effecting or making the standard group spec any stronger, giving them an increased damage table would only open the door for more viable spec options in melee. It would only be a win win for balance.

Absolutely, and I agree with that. I stated previously that IF anything were to be done to the Warden an increase in their damage table would be the most reasonable. This would have essentially negligible impact on the group specc'd Wardens that only run 10 blades and it may assist players that choose to play the solo melee Warden a better capability to solo. That being said I don't foresee any changes in the immediate future as Wardens are in a very good position at the moment.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:53 PM by Ashenspire

"Put wardens on a higher damage table."

They're on table 18. Champions are on table 19. They should not be as proficient with their weapon as a Champion.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:56 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 11:13 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 5:47 PM
The Warden isn't "dubbed" a strong solo class. It's dubbed an incredibly proficient and borderline over powered support class in 8man builds (that coming from the #1 Warden/Player on the server).

Class aren't (or shouldn't be) balanced around their capability to solo. That causes far too many issues.

This is my experience with a melee specced Warden. You don't like melee Warden? Okay great, don't bring up support spec Warden then, because this thread isn't about you... If you enjoy standing back and healing and also feel sufficient in melee because you can interrupt a caster with it, great... I however do not enjoy your spec or I wouldn't be in this thread sharing my experience just to have someone like you pop in and try to invalidate it because you feel I am playing the class wrong.

Warden needs help in an area they are meant to spec in, if they weren't why give them Haste self buff or endo reduc? Those are both pointing towards an idea that Warden are meant to spec melee to some amount and should be at least competent with it.

Every realm has PBT or I might agree that Warden are even close to OP...

Pump the brakes on your Estrogen mate, I clearly stated Efke, who is the #1 Warden, commented his opinion on the Warden class which I re-iterated. I have no issues at all with players playing a class in whatever fashion they desire. But to suggest that Wardens (who are base archtype naturalists) are supposed to be melee oriented is a bit superfluous. Wardens have the capability of specializing in two melee combat lines, that doesn't necessarily imply that they are supposed to be dominant melee performers. I've stated it before, that I wouldn't mind Wardens having a damage table increase (similar to what they did to Paladins; although Paladins have significantly less utility then a Warden and absolutely required a damage boost). The problem that you will continue to run into; however, is that Wardens are not performing poorly outside of the 4 or 5 that desire to run a melee oriented version. Not saying your desire to be able to perform more proficiently in melee combat isn't warranted, it's just not something deemed critically relevant in my opinion.

Also the Dev's have already stated that they have no intention on altering the Warden class at the moment. I would continue, if I were you, to reason with the Dev's that upping their damage table a level (possibly two, obviously testing would be in order) is quite reasonable.

To answer your second point, you are currently somewhat competent in melee combat already. Obviously you aren't going to pump out light tank/heavy tank or melee oriented hybrid DPS because the core design of your class is to fill a support role with support DPS when required.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 1:29 PM by Arkeon

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:53 PM
"Put wardens on a higher damage table."

They're on table 18. Champions are on table 19. They should not be as proficient with their weapon as a Champion.

In a world where friars and paladins are at 21, you can have it XD
Anyway warden is in a great position, but only if he is of high rank and in a good group (the greatest utility of warden here is to be an excellent ra bot)

Wed 10 Apr 2019 2:28 PM by Ardri

This thread

Wed 10 Apr 2019 4:03 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 2:28 PM
This thread

TL;DR - Wardens need halp, we dont hit hard

Wed 10 Apr 2019 4:53 PM by Bradekes

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:56 PM
But to suggest that Wardens (who are base archtype naturalists) are supposed to be melee oriented is a bit superfluous. Wardens have the capability of specializing in two melee combat lines, that doesn't necessarily imply that they are supposed to be dominant melee performers. I've stated it before, that I wouldn't mind Wardens having a damage table increase (similar to what they did to Paladins; although Paladins have significantly less utility then a Warden and absolutely required a damage boost). The problem that you will continue to run into; however, is that Wardens are not performing poorly outside of the 4 or 5 that desire to run a melee oriented version.

Also the Dev's have already stated that they have no intention on altering the Warden class at the moment. I would continue, if I were you, to reason with the Dev's that upping their damage table a level (possibly two, obviously testing would be in order) is quite reasonable.

To answer your second point, you are currently somewhat competent in melee combat already. Obviously you aren't going to pump out light tank/heavy tank or melee oriented hybrid DPS because the core design of your class is to fill a support role with support DPS when required.

So when you say things like that I have to break your cardinal rule of comparing like classes... It's an eye roll I know but friar being base acolyte, thane being base viking both show that base classes don't mean as much.. Warden is most similar to friar... Having 2 melee lines and parry is showing more melee oriented than let's say the bard who no one is complaining about..

I already know devs have no desire to change warden but this is like the 5th thread started on it by different people in the last couple months and I still think warden could use a tiny bit of love in the melee department... Not even the same as friar or paladin even 1 bump on dmg table would be great ..

Wed 10 Apr 2019 5:19 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 4:53 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:56 PM
But to suggest that Wardens (who are base archtype naturalists) are supposed to be melee oriented is a bit superfluous. Wardens have the capability of specializing in two melee combat lines, that doesn't necessarily imply that they are supposed to be dominant melee performers. I've stated it before, that I wouldn't mind Wardens having a damage table increase (similar to what they did to Paladins; although Paladins have significantly less utility then a Warden and absolutely required a damage boost). The problem that you will continue to run into; however, is that Wardens are not performing poorly outside of the 4 or 5 that desire to run a melee oriented version.

Also the Dev's have already stated that they have no intention on altering the Warden class at the moment. I would continue, if I were you, to reason with the Dev's that upping their damage table a level (possibly two, obviously testing would be in order) is quite reasonable.

To answer your second point, you are currently somewhat competent in melee combat already. Obviously you aren't going to pump out light tank/heavy tank or melee oriented hybrid DPS because the core design of your class is to fill a support role with support DPS when required.

So when you say things like that I have to break your cardinal rule of comparing like classes... It's an eye roll I know but friar being base acolyte, thane being base viking both show that base classes don't mean as much.. Warden is most similar to friar... Having 2 melee lines and parry is showing more melee oriented than let's say the bard who no one is complaining about..

I already know devs have no desire to change warden but this is like the 5th thread started on it by different people in the last couple months and I still think warden could use a tiny bit of love in the melee department... Not even the same as friar or paladin even 1 bump on dmg table would be great ..

You're right. In everything that's been stated, I still have absolutely no problem with Wardens getting a dps bump because if the skill points remain as is, it wouldn't really matter to the group oriented support Wardens, they'd still only care for the 10 blades style.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 8:49 PM by The Skies Asunder

I doubt receiving a damage boost would even help solo Wardens at all. Without an offhand attack, shield spec, 2h damage, or higher evade you just aren't going to be winning many melee fights... Every other "melee" class in the game has access to these things, and as the Warden does not, it simply isn't a melee character on this server. The warden that everyone loved on the Live servers was from ToA, when they had access to shield spec, to tons of artifacts for /uses, and ML styles that dealt damage regardless of your terrible weapon spec, while simultaneously buff stripping, or endo/power tapping. The later addition of the combat HoT, and celerity certainly helped the Warden for small man tank groups, and solo as well. Short of adding similar things, the Warden will never feel the same as it did. I still strongly advocate for shield spec, and increased spec points, as it would drastically change their role from a healer/RA bot to at least being an actual hybrid. Either way, I don't see things changing for Wardens any time soon.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 10:15 PM by Ashenspire

Arkeon wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 1:29 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:53 PM
"Put wardens on a higher damage table."

They're on table 18. Champions are on table 19. They should not be as proficient with their weapon as a Champion.

In a world where friars and paladins are at 21, you can have it XD
Anyway warden is in a great position, but only if he is of high rank and in a good group (the greatest utility of warden here is to be an excellent ra bot)

Yeah, no, that's not how that works. Wardens aren't comparable to Paladins or Friars. You don't make 1 to 1 comparisons like that across realm.

However, If Wardens were put to a higher damage table than Champs that realms offensive Hybrid, there would be no reason for them to exist.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 11:13 PM by Arkeon

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 10:15 PM
Arkeon wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 1:29 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:53 PM
"Put wardens on a higher damage table."

They're on table 18. Champions are on table 19. They should not be as proficient with their weapon as a Champion.

In a world where friars and paladins are at 21, you can have it XD
Anyway warden is in a great position, but only if he is of high rank and in a good group (the greatest utility of warden here is to be an excellent ra bot)

Yeah, no, that's not how that works. Wardens aren't comparable to Paladins or Friars. You don't make 1 to 1 comparisons like that across realm.

However, If Wardens were put to a higher damage table than Champs that realms offensive Hybrid, there would be no reason for them to exist.

Paladins original table is 19 and friars 18 ( same as warden )
It was ironic btw, but following your logic, that the friar is two tables above the champion is pure heresy?

Wed 10 Apr 2019 11:36 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 10:15 PM
Yeah, no, that's not how that works. Wardens aren't comparable to Friars. You don't make 1 to 1 comparisons like that across realm.

Friar is base acolyte - warden is base naturalist
Friars have melee spec - warden have melee spec
Friars have parry - warden have parry
Friars have heal spec - warden have heal spec
Friar have buff spec - warden have buff spec

There's not one spec option that warden has over friar or vice-versa... Explain how they are not comparable? Literally are mirrored classes

There are literally no other set of classes that have such similar speccing abilities on such different weapon tables

Wed 10 Apr 2019 11:50 PM by Riac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 11:36 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 10:15 PM
Yeah, no, that's not how that works. Wardens aren't comparable to Friars. You don't make 1 to 1 comparisons like that across realm.

Friar is base acolyte - warden is base naturalist
Friars have melee spec - warden have melee spec
Friars have parry - warden have parry
Friars have heal spec - warden have heal spec
Friar have buff spec - warden have buff spec

There's not one spec option that warden has over friar or vice-versa... Explain how they are not comparable? Literally are mirrored classes

There are literally no other set of classes that have such similar speccing abilities on such different weapon tables

wardens get scale
friars get leather
wardens get twf
friars get twf and reflex attack

they are different

Wed 10 Apr 2019 11:53 PM by Bradekes

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 11:50 PM
wardens get scale
friars get leather
wardens get twf
friars get twf and reflex attack

they are different

I know the differences that is not what I said.. Friar have evade5, specAF buff, dex/qui, ABS buff to compensate.. I am comparing their spec options not the abilities in those specs.. Much like runemaster/eldritch/wizard each has their own abilities but they are all bolt casters..

Armsman have better armor than hero or warrior but only warrior is on a higher dmg table by 1 24÷23=4% increase more dmg... Friar is on 21 vs warden 18... 21÷18=16.5% increase..

Ranger and scout are 18 on dmg table vs hunter 19.. 19÷18=5% increase..

So of all the like melee classes there's no way the current setup is balanced.. There's no other discrepancy of the same proportions... There's not enough difference in abilities/options to justify the gap...

Thu 11 Apr 2019 12:32 AM by Riac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 11:53 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 11:50 PM
wardens get scale
friars get leather
wardens get twf
friars get twf and reflex attack

they are different

I know the differences that is not what I said.. Friar have evade5, specAF buff, dex/qui, ABS buff to compensate.. I am comparing their spec options not the abilities in those specs.. Much like runemaster/eldritch/wizard each has their own abilities but they are all bolt casters..

Armsman have better armor than hero or warrior but only warrior is on a higher dmg table by 1 24÷23=4% increase more dmg... Friar is on 21 vs warden 18... 21÷18=16.5% increase..

Ranger and scout are 18 on dmg table vs hunter 19.. 19÷18=5% increase..

So of all the like melee classes there's no way the current setup is balanced.. There's no other discrepancy of the same proportions... There's not enough difference in abilities/options to justify the gap...

wish there was a thumbs down button

Thu 11 Apr 2019 12:34 AM by Bradekes

Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 12:32 AM
wish there was a thumbs down button

Because there's no logical explanation you can only think of a thumbs down? Nice

Thu 11 Apr 2019 12:40 AM by Riac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 12:34 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 12:32 AM
wish there was a thumbs down button

Because there's no logical explanation you can only think of a thumbs down? Nice

no proof wardens need buffs

Thu 11 Apr 2019 12:53 AM by Bradekes

Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 12:40 AM
no proof wardens need buffs

They shouldn't need a buff no.. But where is the proof that Friar needed a melee buff? They just did it cause they wanted to, not because it was needed...

Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:16 AM by Riac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 12:53 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 12:40 AM
no proof wardens need buffs

They shouldn't need a buff no.. But where is the proof that Friar needed a melee buff? They just did it cause they wanted to, not because it was needed...

dont remember a melee buff, just a heal buff.

Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:19 AM by Bradekes

Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:16 AM
dont remember a melee buff, just a heal buff.

Yes, they got a weapon table buff before launch, before I even started playing Phoenix in Beta... I will show you the link, tell me how this is fair?

http://playphoenix.wiki/albion-class-changes/

– Can purchase Determination.
– Increased damage (Table increase from 19 to 21)
– The single target spec heal costs less mana and has a shorter cast time.
– Given a buff-line in the Rejuvenation specialization that procs group heals from melee attacks
– Cure Poison range 1500 -> 2000
– Cure Disease range 1500 -> 2000
– Level 34 staff style is now a back positional with a 60% snare for 15 seconds.
– Can additionally purchase Mastery of Concentration, Static Tempest, and Vehemant Renewal
– Static tempest stun duration has been reduced to 2 seconds (instead of 3 seconds)

Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:21 AM by Riac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:19 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:16 AM
dont remember a melee buff, just a heal buff.

Yes, they got a weapon table buff before launch, before I even started playing Phoenix in Beta... I will show you the link, tell me how this is fair?

http://playphoenix.wiki/albion-class-changes/

– Can purchase Determination.
– Increased damage (Table increase from 19 to 21)
– The single target spec heal costs less mana and has a shorter cast time.
– Given a buff-line in the Rejuvenation specialization that procs group heals from melee attacks
– Cure Poison range 1500 -> 2000
– Cure Disease range 1500 -> 2000
– Level 34 staff style is now a back positional with a 60% snare for 15 seconds.
– Can additionally purchase Mastery of Concentration, Static Tempest, and Vehemant Renewal
– Static tempest stun duration has been reduced to 2 seconds (instead of 3 seconds)

i dont think they should have it, they beat the fuck out of ppl 1v1 non stop. doesnt mean wardens should get buffed though.

Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:24 AM by Bradekes

Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:21 AM
i dont think they should have it, they beat the fuck out of ppl 1v1 non stop. doesnt mean wardens should get buffed though.

I just want it to be fair.. 1h nonspec shield gives 0 defense penetration... 2h staff atleast cuts parry chance 25% or 50% not sure their formula here.. And gets 10% 2h bonus... Warden just get the short stick...

I don't think friars should be so tough either and I'd atleast feel more balanced if their damage was reduced but in the current state it's just no fair... :/

Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:42 AM by Riac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:24 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:21 AM
i dont think they should have it, they beat the fuck out of ppl 1v1 non stop. doesnt mean wardens should get buffed though.

I just want it to be fair.. 1h nonspec shield gives 0 defense penetration... 2h staff atleast cuts parry chance 25% or 50% not sure their formula here.. And gets 10% 2h bonus... Warden just get the short stick...

I don't think friars should be so tough either and I'd atleast feel more balanced if their damage was reduced but in the current state it's just no fair... :/

thumbs down

Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:48 AM by Ashenspire

Arkeon wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 11:13 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 10:15 PM
Arkeon wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 1:29 PM
In a world where friars and paladins are at 21, you can have it XD
Anyway warden is in a great position, but only if he is of high rank and in a good group (the greatest utility of warden here is to be an excellent ra bot)

Yeah, no, that's not how that works. Wardens aren't comparable to Paladins or Friars. You don't make 1 to 1 comparisons like that across realm.

However, If Wardens were put to a higher damage table than Champs that realms offensive Hybrid, there would be no reason for them to exist.

Paladins original table is 19 and friars 18 ( same as warden )
It was ironic btw, but following your logic, that the friar is two tables above the champion is pure heresy?

i'm gonna make it REAL simple for you and the other guy that doesn't seem to get it.

It doesn't matter what they did to Paladins or Friars, as what they did to Paladins and Friars has no affect on the internal realm balance of Hibernia.

If you increase a warden's damage table above a Champions, there's no reason to ever group a Champion. If you increase the Champion to compensate, this hurts the attractiveness of Valewalkers. If a Warden and a Champion are put on the same damage table as Paladins and Friars, there is no reason to group Heroes or Blademasters, as they're only 1 damage table higher and offer significantly less utility.

Wardens are fine. You aren't meant to do damage. Roll something else if you want to do that.

Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:59 AM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:48 AM
If you increase a warden's damage table above a Champions, there's no reason to ever group a Champion. If you increase the Champion to compensate, this hurts the attractiveness of Valewalkers. If a Warden and a Champion are put on the same damage table as Paladins and Friars, there is no reason to group Heroes or Blademasters, as they're only 1 damage table higher and offer significantly less utility.

Wardens are fine. You aren't meant to do damage. Roll something else if you want to do that.

Lol... So them increasing friars damage table made it so reavers/paladins now get less group? Pretty sure champ debuffs far outweight anything a small bump to dmg table on warden would do, especially because champ get shield & 2h weapons which grow in dmg passed 52comp...
Groups only want Light tanks anyways for the most part... don't think you're going to hurt the meta.. Friar/Paladin changes didn't hurt alb meta warden buff wouldn't hurt hibs

Thu 11 Apr 2019 2:55 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:24 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:21 AM
i dont think they should have it, they beat the fuck out of ppl 1v1 non stop. doesnt mean wardens should get buffed though.

I just want it to be fair.. 1h nonspec shield gives 0 defense penetration... 2h staff atleast cuts parry chance 25% or 50% not sure their formula here.. And gets 10% 2h bonus... Warden just get the short stick...

I don't think friars should be so tough either and I'd atleast feel more balanced if their damage was reduced but in the current state it's just no fair... :/

You get PBT, DA, speed, better haste, better redux, and better co-supports.

It's plenty fair.

Thu 11 Apr 2019 2:59 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 2:55 AM
You get PBT, DA, speed, better haste, and better co-supports.

It's plenty fair.

You can't run PBT with DA, PBT recast 20seconds... Speed is castable not instant means no utility in a pinch.. The haste is nice but it doesn't help your damage when you can't hit your target anyways.. Low weapon skill no defense penetration... Kinda lame.. I already am giving up on my melee warden it's a joke... Got him 3L0 soloing and it wasnt fun the whole time mainly from task credit.. Can't win any 1vs1 and his gear is perfect so :/ there's not much to get wrong in combat you have haste debuff followup from firebladr, if you can actually hit with it... Then you have taunt style for anytime

Thu 11 Apr 2019 3:08 AM by Riac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 2:59 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 2:55 AM
You get PBT, DA, speed, better haste, and better co-supports.

It's plenty fair.

You can't run PBT with DA, PBT recast 20seconds... Speed is castable not instant means no utility in a pinch.. The haste is nice but it doesn't help your damage when you can't hit your target anyways.. Low weapon skill no defense penetration... Kinda lame.. I already am giving up on my melee warden it's a joke... Got him 3L0 soloing and it wasnt fun the whole time mainly from task credit.. Can't win any 1vs1 and his gear is perfect so :/ there's not much to get wrong in combat you have haste debuff followup from firebladr, if you can actually hit with it... Then you have taunt style for anytime

youre only 3l0 and already bitching lololol this sheds a whole new light on this shit. i thought you were atleast r5-6, you cant even drop a strong twf.... i just cant understand why my melee specced hybrid healer isnt winning 1v1s @ 3l0.... wtf lolol9oololol

Thu 11 Apr 2019 4:30 AM by Ashenspire

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:59 AM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:48 AM
If you increase a warden's damage table above a Champions, there's no reason to ever group a Champion. If you increase the Champion to compensate, this hurts the attractiveness of Valewalkers. If a Warden and a Champion are put on the same damage table as Paladins and Friars, there is no reason to group Heroes or Blademasters, as they're only 1 damage table higher and offer significantly less utility.

Wardens are fine. You aren't meant to do damage. Roll something else if you want to do that.

Lol... So them increasing friars damage table made it so reavers/paladins now get less group? Pretty sure champ debuffs far outweight anything a small bump to dmg table on warden would do, especially because champ get shield & 2h weapons which grow in dmg passed 52comp...
Groups only want Light tanks anyways for the most part... don't think you're going to hurt the meta.. Friar/Paladin changes didn't hurt alb meta warden buff wouldn't hurt hibs

Friars don't have a damage problem, they have a utility problem. So no, increasing their damage doesn't have them replace a Paladin/Reaver.

If you give a class with the utility of a Warden 95% of the weaponskill of a hero or Blademaster there's no reason to group the hero or Blademaster.

If you increase a wardens damage and don't supplement the other classes that are built SOLELY for damage, they lose viability.

It's really a simple concept.

Thu 11 Apr 2019 12:29 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 4:30 AM
If you give a class with the utility of a Warden 95% of the weaponskill of a hero or Blademaster there's no reason to group the hero or Blademaster.

You don't know anything about damage table do you? I asked for a single bump in warden dmg table... Warden is on 18 I'd like them to be 19 atleast.. BM and Hero are on 23... How is that even close????? Friar is on 21 and they aren't taking merc or armsman spots because they are out dps and have utility... Warden don't even have a way to stun someone, unless they go 50 crush for off parry stun they hardly ever block so I don't count blades stun

Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:39 PM by Ashenspire

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 12:29 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 4:30 AM
If you give a class with the utility of a Warden 95% of the weaponskill of a hero or Blademaster there's no reason to group the hero or Blademaster.

You don't know anything about damage table do you? I asked for a single bump in warden dmg table... Warden is on 18 I'd like them to be 19 atleast.. BM and Hero are on 23... How is that even close????? Friar is on 21 and they aren't taking merc or armsman spots because they are out dps and have utility... Warden don't even have a way to stun someone, unless they go 50 crush for off parry stun they hardly ever block so I don't count blades stun

Warden is 18. Champ is 19. If you bump up Warden to 19, you have to put Champ above them as they're an offensive hybrid and it doesn't make sense for the defensive hybrid to have the same melee damage potential. There is no 20, so Champs would go to 21, which is where VWs sit, which makes them less attractive.. BM and Hero are 22. Only warrior is 23.

Wardens are fine. You're either bad, or playing the wrong class.

Thu 11 Apr 2019 4:22 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:39 PM
Warden is 18. Champ is 19. If you bump up Warden to 19, you have to put Champ above them as they're an offensive hybrid and it doesn't make sense for the defensive hybrid to have the same melee damage potential. There is no 20, so Champs would go to 21, which is where VWs sit, which makes them less attractive.. BM and Hero are 22. Only warrior is 23.

Wardens are fine. You're either bad, or playing the wrong class.

Well guess I messed up a bit of dmg table info being on my phone replying from work.. Anyways you can't play a warden wrong lol.. Just fire blade spectrum blade, que parry style behind taunt.. There's literally like 5 buttons a warden can press besides active RA mid fight.. You can't twist like pala as PBT is on 20s cooldown.. My warden has all the bells and whistles... I'm certain they just suck, so I'm just working on other things as I don't enjoy support warden.

Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:04 PM by Ashenspire

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 4:22 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 1:39 PM
Warden is 18. Champ is 19. If you bump up Warden to 19, you have to put Champ above them as they're an offensive hybrid and it doesn't make sense for the defensive hybrid to have the same melee damage potential. There is no 20, so Champs would go to 21, which is where VWs sit, which makes them less attractive.. BM and Hero are 22. Only warrior is 23.

Wardens are fine. You're either bad, or playing the wrong class.

Well guess I messed up a bit of dmg table info being on my phone replying from work.. Anyways you can't play a warden wrong lol.. Just fire blade spectrum blade, que parry style behind taunt.. There's literally like 5 buttons a warden can press besides active RA mid fight.. You can't twist like pala as PBT is on 20s cooldown.. My warden has all the bells and whistles... I'm certain they just suck, so I'm just working on other things as I don't enjoy support warden.

"support Warden" is redundant. That is what the class is. A support. Through and through.

DPS Warden is an oxymoron.

Thu 11 Apr 2019 8:52 PM by Pirhana7

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 10:15 PM
Arkeon wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 1:29 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 12:53 PM
"Put wardens on a higher damage table."

They're on table 18. Champions are on table 19. They should not be as proficient with their weapon as a Champion.

In a world where friars and paladins are at 21, you can have it XD
Anyway warden is in a great position, but only if he is of high rank and in a good group (the greatest utility of warden here is to be an excellent ra bot)

Yeah, no, that's not how that works. Wardens aren't comparable to Paladins or Friars. You don't make 1 to 1 comparisons like that across realm.

However, If Wardens were put to a higher damage table than Champs that realms offensive Hybrid, there would be no reason for them to exist.

With that logic no Champs should exists because of Vale Walkers being on a higher damage table as a melee hybrid...…. But champs still do exist. Because Champs, VWs, and Warden are all different play styles. If Wardens got a damage boost it would not effect champs in anyway. Champs would still be the king of 1v1 and groups that want a shield spec or 2hand damage over a 2nd warden that is melee damage

Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:01 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:04 PM
"support Warden" is redundant. That is what the class is. A support. Through and through.

DPS Warden is an oxymoron.

Warden is not supposed to be main DPS, but it should at least be on the same damage table as every other hybrid, literally the only hybrid on 18... Justification for this??? I don't see any...

Warden were at a point good in melee, maybe not dealing damage but having shield and more spec points made them very good 1 vs 1... I am not asking for this because I think that is too much for this server, I am asking for a balanced melee option however seeings they are Hybrid not support like you say...

Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:05 PM by Ashenspire

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 8:52 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 10:15 PM
Arkeon wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 1:29 PM
In a world where friars and paladins are at 21, you can have it XD
Anyway warden is in a great position, but only if he is of high rank and in a good group (the greatest utility of warden here is to be an excellent ra bot)

Yeah, no, that's not how that works. Wardens aren't comparable to Paladins or Friars. You don't make 1 to 1 comparisons like that across realm.

However, If Wardens were put to a higher damage table than Champs that realms offensive Hybrid, there would be no reason for them to exist.

With that logic no Champs should exists because of Vale Walkers being on a higher damage table as a melee hybrid...…. But champs still do exist. Because Champs, VWs, and Warden are all different play styles. If Wardens got a damage boost it would not effect champs in anyway. Champs would still be the king of 1v1 and groups that want a shield spec or 2hand damage over a 2nd warden that is melee damage

They fight for the same spot in a group, and fill the same role. Champs already struggle to compete with VW in RvR groups for their spot. No one cares about 1v1.

Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:15 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:05 PM
They fight for the same spot in a group, and fill the same role. Champs already struggle to compete with VW in RvR groups for their spot. No one cares about 1v1.

So I am attaching a picture straight from the ToA Game Manual... I could not access the original manual for the game but, it clearly states Fighter Hybrid... meaning Warden is a fighter first support second... But this is not how they play on Phoenix and it should be fixed.

Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:48 PM by Ashenspire

ToA manual on a modified 1.65 shard. Okay.

Also that manual doesn't even include Blademaster. At all. Excuse me if I don't put any stock in it.

You shouldn't hit hard. You shouldn't heal for a ton. You shouldn't have the best buffs. You shouldn't have the best defenses. Jack of all trades, master of none. Every individual thing a Warden can do they should be the worst at. It's the combination of being able to do all of those things that makes them so strong in groups.

Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:54 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:48 PM
ToA manual on a modified 1.65 shard. Okay.

Also that manual doesn't even include Blademaster. At all. Excuse me if I don't put any stock in it.

You shouldn't hit hard. You shouldn't heal for a ton. You shouldn't have the best buffs. You shouldn't have the best defenses. Jack of all trades, master of none. Every individual thing a Warden can do they should be the worst at. It's the combination of being able to do all of those things that makes them so strong in groups.

This was Mythic's intent for the class, how can you dismiss the creators of the game??? how daft can you be honestly...

Wardens don't have the best heals, they don't have the best buffs, they don't have the best defenses, so I am not sure what you are talking about, they do have the jack of all trades(minus any sort of ranged interrupt) like you describe except their melee is subpar- as friar has all the same things as warden except PBT but friar as evade5... they are equal ine very respec except damage..

Fri 12 Apr 2019 1:49 AM by The Skies Asunder

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:01 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:04 PM
"support Warden" is redundant. That is what the class is. A support. Through and through.

DPS Warden is an oxymoron.

Warden is not supposed to be main DPS, but it should at least be on the same damage table as every other hybrid, literally the only hybrid on 18... Justification for this??? I don't see any...

Warden were at a point good in melee, maybe not dealing damage but having shield and more spec points made them very good 1 vs 1... I am not asking for this because I think that is too much for this server, I am asking for a balanced melee option however seeings they are Hybrid not support like you say...

I don't feel like shield spec, and addition points would be too much for this server at all. Without all the ToA abilities, celerity, heal procs, and combat HoTs they wouldn't be the 1v1 monsters they were on Live. I feel it would just open up more options for them in groups, to be on the assist train as the slam bot, or the ability to actually peel correctly in a protection role, since having a single snare side style doesn't exactly make you an amazing peeler. Small man would become a lot easier to set up too, as you might actually want a warden in a 3 or 4 man then. It would obviously make them a solid 1v1 character, but it certainly wouldn't push them over the top without all the other tools they were given, and the game isn't balanced for that anyway.

As for damage tables, I tend to agree with Ashenspire. Warden doesn't really need more damage, and if they did get more Champions would certainly be upset, and rightfully so. As he said, they are offensive minded hybrids, and Wardens are defensive ones. It's just that they don't have all that much defense here either.

Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:25 AM by Bradekes

The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 1:49 AM
I don't feel like shield spec, and addition points would be too much for this server at all. Without all the ToA abilities, celerity, heal procs, and combat HoTs they wouldn't be the 1v1 monsters they were on Live. I feel it would just open up more options for them in groups, to be on the assist train as the slam bot, or the ability to actually peel correctly in a protection role, since having a single snare side style doesn't exactly make you an amazing peeler. Small man would become a lot easier to set up too, as you might actually want a warden in a 3 or 4 man then. It would obviously make them a solid 1v1 character, but it certainly wouldn't push them over the top without all the other tools they were given, and the game isn't balanced for that anyway.

As for damage tables, I tend to agree with Ashenspire. Warden doesn't really need more damage, and if they did get more Champions would certainly be upset, and rightfully so. As he said, they are offensive minded hybrids, and Wardens are defensive ones. It's just that they don't have all that much defense here either.

I am not arguing that they should be more defensive... but I think them having slam would hurt champs more than them having a small damage bump... champs have that over warden and would have 2h and great debuffs and ranged interrupt... Warden would just have a slightly higher dmg still with just a 1h which isn't much honestly... it's definitely not overpowered lol...

If you were looking for M.Dps would you even consider inviting a Warden on a 21 dmg table vs a champ? lol I don't think so, those debuffs hurt too bad to see a tiny 1h trying to dps... I just think 19dmg table is more in line seeings every other hybrid in the game is on that table or higher.. no one will want a melee warden, they will still want support warden for 8man... Giving warden more spec points would change that because warden could melee and support, now they have to choose but their melee option just isn't viable enough

Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:29 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:25 AM
If you were looking for M.Dps would you even consider inviting a Warden on a 21 dmg table vs a champ? lol I don't think so, those debuffs hurt too bad to see a tiny 1h trying to dps... I just think 19dmg table is more in line seeings every other hybrid in the game is on that table or higher.. no one will want a melee warden, they will still want support warden for 8man... Giving warden more spec points would change that because warden could melee and support, now they have to choose but their melee option just isn't viable enough

"Other classes have it too" is not really a valid argument. Bards and Minstrels are also hybrids and on the same damage table.

Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:32 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:29 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:25 AM
If you were looking for M.Dps would you even consider inviting a Warden on a 21 dmg table vs a champ? lol I don't think so, those debuffs hurt too bad to see a tiny 1h trying to dps... I just think 19dmg table is more in line seeings every other hybrid in the game is on that table or higher.. no one will want a melee warden, they will still want support warden for 8man... Giving warden more spec points would change that because warden could melee and support, now they have to choose but their melee option just isn't viable enough

"Other classes have it too" is not really a valid argument. Bards and Minstrels are also hybrids and on the same damage table.

But minstrel get OJ pets and bard are seriously supports, no one has ever argued to increase bard melee options??? not sure why you would bring them up... Warden has no other form of damage, no shout nothing, no CC, no instant taunt interrupt... Melee is their only dps, that is why dmg table increase is a viable options, unless you want shields, which I think is too much..

Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:34 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:32 AM
But minstrel get OJ pets and bard are seriously supports, no one has ever argued to increase bard melee options??? not sure why you would bring them up... Warden has no other form of damage, no shout nothing... Melee is their only dps, that is why dmg table increase is a viable option

Wardens get 3x% perma self haste and Damage Add. It isn't nothing, and it's good enough. Wardens do not need anything, period, unless we're giving out of bunch of "this would be nice" buffs to everyone else.

Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:35 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:34 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:32 AM
But minstrel get OJ pets and bard are seriously supports, no one has ever argued to increase bard melee options??? not sure why you would bring them up... Warden has no other form of damage, no shout nothing... Melee is their only dps, that is why dmg table increase is a viable option

Wardens get 3x% perma self haste and Damage Add. It isn't nothing, and it's good enough. Wardens do not need anything, period, unless we're giving out of bunch of "this would be nice" buffs to everyone else.

Warden haste is good, I know this, but they have a hard time hitting anything other than casters, because they have no defense penetration and low WS.. the dmg add is moot, trust me it serves no purpose because Warden can't twist and PBT is too important to run..

I'd take dmg add from enchanter and put it on warden and remove dmg add chant, that would also be viable enough... seeings no one runs enchantment enchanters...

Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:39 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:35 AM
Warden haste is good, I know this, but they have a hard time hitting anything other than casters, because they have no defense penetration and low WS.. the dmg add is moot, trust me it serves no purpose because Warden can't twist and PBT is too important to run..

You can use it whenever PBT is ready to be refreshed and get 3-4 hits in with +20-30 damage. If you're in a group you shouldn't be hitting a tank head on either.

Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:40 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:39 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:35 AM
Warden haste is good, I know this, but they have a hard time hitting anything other than casters, because they have no defense penetration and low WS.. the dmg add is moot, trust me it serves no purpose because Warden can't twist and PBT is too important to run..

You can use it whenever PBT is ready to be refreshed and get 3-4 hits in with +20-30 damage. If you're in a group you shouldn't be hitting a tank head on either.

Warden dmg add doesn't do that much damage, and PBT is on a 20 second cooldown and uses a crap ton of power especially when you reuse it... DMG add does 11-20dmg on my warden 47 nurture

Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:42 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:40 AM
Warden dmg add doesn't do that much damage, and PBT is on a 20 second cooldown and uses a crap ton of power especially when you reuse it... DMG add does 11-20dmg on my warden 47 nurture

It's 16s and if you're fighting solo, you may as well double cast it.

Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:45 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:42 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:40 AM
Warden dmg add doesn't do that much damage, and PBT is on a 20 second cooldown and uses a crap ton of power especially when you reuse it... DMG add does 11-20dmg on my warden 47 nurture

It's 16s and if you're fighting solo, you may as well double cast it.

16s for what... 60dmg tops... how are you trying to justify that as any compensation?? 60/16 is 3.5dps lol... yeah that's worth the effort??? You realize that is the dmg of like a level 1 character hitting blue mobs right??

Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:47 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:45 AM
16s for what... 60dmg tops... how are you trying to justify that as any compensation?? 60/16 is 3.5dps lol... yeah that's worth the effort???

Yes, you should play your class to its maximum potential.

Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:50 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:47 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:45 AM
16s for what... 60dmg tops... how are you trying to justify that as any compensation?? 60/16 is 3.5dps lol... yeah that's worth the effort???

Yes, you should play your class to its maximum potential.

Yes... playing my character to max potential... You know I have tried this... as it makes no difference in the outcome... you know pbt has immunity timer too, so you actually waste 1 round of PBT that way refreshing restarts timer when you are immune so you may have caused yourself 150+dmg trying to finagle in 60dmg thru dmg add

red pbt is on 6 second refresh.. 16/6 means 2.66 of pbt meaning you need to wait 2 more seconds after your PBT has refreshed to obtain your master solution...

Or you actually just turned your red pbt into 8 second refresh every 16 seconds meaning you might as well run yellow pbt

Wardens only option in melee is spam your styles and hope the enemy dies... there is no cool fun exciting way to try and cheat the system, they are way too straight forward and have no cool tricks or twisting that is viable... Warden are melee first support second according to Mystic so I am not sure why everyone is hating on this idea so hard as it makes perfect sense given the current setup of this server...

I'll be sleeping tho look forward to the discussion tomorrow

Fri 12 Apr 2019 3:26 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:50 AM
Yes... playing my character to max potential... You know I have tried this... as it makes no difference in the outcome... you know pbt has immunity timer too, so you actually waste 1 round of PBT that way refreshing restarts timer when you are immune so you may have caused yourself 150+dmg trying to finagle in 60dmg thru dmg add

That's why you get hit, then pulse PBT again once the immunity is down (was it implemented at this patch level?). And whenever you double pulse PBT, you pulse DA with it as well.

Fri 12 Apr 2019 3:59 AM by Ashenspire

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:54 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:48 PM
ToA manual on a modified 1.65 shard. Okay.

Also that manual doesn't even include Blademaster. At all. Excuse me if I don't put any stock in it.

You shouldn't hit hard. You shouldn't heal for a ton. You shouldn't have the best buffs. You shouldn't have the best defenses. Jack of all trades, master of none. Every individual thing a Warden can do they should be the worst at. It's the combination of being able to do all of those things that makes them so strong in groups.

This was Mythic's intent for the class, how can you dismiss the creators of the game??? how daft can you be honestly...

Wardens don't have the best heals, they don't have the best buffs, they don't have the best defenses, so I am not sure what you are talking about, they do have the jack of all trades(minus any sort of ranged interrupt) like you describe except their melee is subpar- as friar has all the same things as warden except PBT but friar as evade5... they are equal ine very respec except damage..

That was the ToA manual. A manual that literally left out an entire class in Hibernia. A manual based on a version if the game after the one this shard is modelled after. So yeah, I will dismiss the creators intentions.

The point you don't seem to understand is I didn't say they have the best anything. Because they have access to so many options, however, they should be the worst at all of them. They shouldn't heal like druids, they shouldn't support like bards, they shouldn't do tank damage. They should be the worst at every single one of those things. Because the fact that THEY CAN do all of those things makes them greater than the sum of their parts.

Putting wardens up 1 damage table isn't asking for something little. It puts them on an even weaponskill table with Champions, and above assassins. It should never, ever happen. Wardens don't need more damage. They're not built for it. Stop asking for it. It's not their main focus.

Fri 12 Apr 2019 11:21 AM by Arkeon

Imo the fact that so many posts are born for the warden depends on:

Everyone wants a Warden in group, who has a good rank, nobody wants a ra bot without ra .

/warden, open herald, take the highest rr available ( if you don't have one online )

Then consequently if you have no fixed group, or high rank, and you are unable to do it alone... What they should do?

tf 5 + wall + 15 min afk is the best solution, but maybe they would like something more interactive XD

( my rr is ok and I easily find a group, it's just my hypothesis about the discomfort that drives a lot of players to constantly open the same tread )

Sat 13 Apr 2019 9:18 PM by Sadra

My point of this thread was to discuss potential for a different type of warden other than group heal warden. Their is literally no point to go anything but 49 nurture/ 42 regrowth/ 10 blades. People who do are few and far between. Even Bards who are pidgeoned into their spec have a LOT of choice on how much heals/ cc they want to go. I pointed out a couple of options that happened on LIVE as possible solutions.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 9:16 AM by CronU

Already 8 pages again on this topic... and this about an already overpowered class. ^^

Imo Wardens aren't even pigeonholded.
They just simply dont have a good third line, like most other classes have.
49/42/10 is the best spec wardens can go for. If you want the best spec possible of cause you will go for this one.
More points in Blades? You are not a damagedealer, every single point in blades is waste of utility.
More points in Parry? Sure possible.. to be more the kind of defensive spec. But does it improve the already so strong spec? No. it doesn't

As mentioned above, the spec is just simply that strong that you dont need any other specs, without loosing anything instead of gaining.

Mentalist, rvr-wise, is like that.
45 light, 28 Mentalism, rest Mana
There is no other viable Mentalist spec if you wanna go rvr. Is the class to weak? Well of cause not. Mentalist is THE spec nuker of Hibernia.

So does the Warden need a buff?
No, he doesnt. As the Mentalist is a damagedealer, the warden is a support class, not a dmg dealer. And as a supporter he is in a superior position. If you do not like the support warden and want a more dmg wise class, then just simply play another class.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:47 PM by Bradekes

CronU wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 9:16 AM
the warden is a support class, not a dmg dealer. And as a supporter he is in a superior position.

Warden are meant to be a hybrid, not support... Try telling a thane he is a tank not a caster or friar he is a support and not a dps.. Or valewalker he is a caster not melee...

All these other true hybrid work like hybrid except warden

Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:27 PM by Dariussdars

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:45 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:42 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:40 AM
Warden dmg add doesn't do that much damage, and PBT is on a 20 second cooldown and uses a crap ton of power especially when you reuse it... DMG add does 11-20dmg on my warden 47 nurture

It's 16s and if you're fighting solo, you may as well double cast it.

16s for what... 60dmg tops... how are you trying to justify that as any compensation?? 60/16 is 3.5dps lol... yeah that's worth the effort??? You realize that is the dmg of like a level 1 character hitting blue mobs right??

Warden damage add appears to be the same as a Skald's DA. Strange that I never see Skald's complaining about how weak their DA is. Warden also gets a combat speed buff, which Skald's dont get. Not quite sure what the issue is, Warden's get a lot of utility, use it.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:30 PM by Bradekes

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:27 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:45 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:42 AM
It's 16s and if you're fighting solo, you may as well double cast it.

16s for what... 60dmg tops... how are you trying to justify that as any compensation?? 60/16 is 3.5dps lol... yeah that's worth the effort??? You realize that is the dmg of like a level 1 character hitting blue mobs right??

Warden damage add appears to be the same as a Skald's DA. Strange that I never see Skald's complaining about how weak their DA is. Warden also gets a combat speed buff, which Skald's dont get. Not quite sure what the issue is, Warden's get a lot of utility, use it.

I've stated this now 4 times in this thread... Warden cannot use their damage add because they cannot twist PBT... Doing so would cause more problems than doing good... If warden had a reliable stun they could utilize their dmg add.

Skalds have 2 dds for reliable extra damage... They have no defensive chant other than health regen which is garbage.. So they have no choice but to run dmg add.. No real comparison here

Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:33 PM by Dariussdars

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:30 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:27 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:45 AM
16s for what... 60dmg tops... how are you trying to justify that as any compensation?? 60/16 is 3.5dps lol... yeah that's worth the effort??? You realize that is the dmg of like a level 1 character hitting blue mobs right??

Warden damage add appears to be the same as a Skald's DA. Strange that I never see Skald's complaining about how weak their DA is. Warden also gets a combat speed buff, which Skald's dont get. Not quite sure what the issue is, Warden's get a lot of utility, use it.

I've stated this now 4 times in this thread... Warden cannot use their damage add because they cannot twist PBT... Doing so would cause more problems than doing good... If warden had a reliable stun they could utilize their dmg add.

Are there no battle Warden's who solo? On paper, looks like a 39 blade/46 nurture/26 regrowth has a ton of utility. Decent melee, great utlity, and a 216 major heal. Would be strictly a solo spec, groups would probably hate having a battle Warden.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:35 PM by Bradekes

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:33 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:30 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:27 PM
Warden damage add appears to be the same as a Skald's DA. Strange that I never see Skald's complaining about how weak their DA is. Warden also gets a combat speed buff, which Skald's dont get. Not quite sure what the issue is, Warden's get a lot of utility, use it.

I've stated this now 4 times in this thread... Warden cannot use their damage add because they cannot twist PBT... Doing so would cause more problems than doing good... If warden had a reliable stun they could utilize their dmg add.

Are there no battle Warden's who solo? On paper, looks like a 39 blade/46 nurture/26 regrowth has a ton of utility. Decent melee, great utlity, and a 216 major heal. Would be strictly a solo spec, groups would probably hate having a battle Warden.

My battle warden solos.. But dropping pbt for 14dmg a swing is so much garbage you don't understand.. I'd rather run pbt.. Once a warden is in a fight he has only pbt as utility as his speed is castable and he has no in combat spells other than dmg add.. Not sure what you're argument is..

Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:37 PM by Dariussdars

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:35 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:33 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:30 PM
I've stated this now 4 times in this thread... Warden cannot use their damage add because they cannot twist PBT... Doing so would cause more problems than doing good... If warden had a reliable stun they could utilize their dmg add.

Are there no battle Warden's who solo? On paper, looks like a 39 blade/46 nurture/26 regrowth has a ton of utility. Decent melee, great utlity, and a 216 major heal. Would be strictly a solo spec, groups would probably hate having a battle Warden.

My battle warden solos.. But dropping pbt for 14dmg a swing is so much garbage you don't understand.. I'd rather run pbt

Same DA as a Skald has. I'd rather have PBT on my Skald than the damage add anyday. How do you do 1 on 1 as battle warden?

Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:39 PM by Dariussdars

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:35 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:33 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:30 PM
I've stated this now 4 times in this thread... Warden cannot use their damage add because they cannot twist PBT... Doing so would cause more problems than doing good... If warden had a reliable stun they could utilize their dmg add.

Are there no battle Warden's who solo? On paper, looks like a 39 blade/46 nurture/26 regrowth has a ton of utility. Decent melee, great utlity, and a 216 major heal. Would be strictly a solo spec, groups would probably hate having a battle Warden.

My battle warden solos.. But dropping pbt for 14dmg a swing is so much garbage you don't understand.. I'd rather run pbt.. Once a warden is in a fight he has only pbt as utility as his speed is castable and he has no in combat spells other than dmg add.. Not sure what you're argument is..

Who said I have an argument? What exactly do you not understand about a hybrid? A Thane won't nuke as hard as a true caster, and won't melee as well as a light tank or tank. Not sure what exactly you think your healing hybrid should be capable of?

Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:46 PM by Bradekes

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:37 PM
Same DA as a Skald has. I'd rather have PBT on my Skald than the damage add anyday. How do you do 1 on 1 as battle warden?

I'm 39blades/14parry/47nurt/20regro... Pretty much can't even solo a SB outta stealth, haven't been able to kill anyone 1vs1 who is templated, just being honest... Even the ones who don't do tricky stuff like kiting and such.. My template is complete and I use the 4.4 speed blade that has ablative proc, which procs a lot...

Skalds are very long fights... I use fireblade then spectrum blade for haste debuff then I will use parry style backup with taunt.. Some fights I cannot get spectrum blade off at all because warden have no defense pen and very low WS... I get parried or evaded way too much... With the skalds it's eventually the DDs that kill me not their melee.. That's with full resists and resist buff vs their shout damage...

It's just extremely frustrating... Now I have had people in here attribute it to me only being rr3 but that's because I don't desire to play the class anymore.. They say if I had high Thornweave Field RA I'd be doing a lot better... This may be true but if I have to rely on a RA for my wins I'll have a fighting chance every 15minutes but other than that I'm just a sitting duck

Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:47 PM by Bradekes

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:39 PM
Who said I have an argument? What exactly do you not understand about a hybrid? A Thane won't nuke as hard as a true caster, and won't melee as well as a light tank or tank. Not sure what exactly you think your healing hybrid should be capable of?

You know thanes received a buff to their spells here right? 2.4cast speed with 183 delve spell is better than any casters baseline spells.. They also have access to slam so they don't need to melee as well..

Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:48 PM by Riac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:46 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:37 PM
Same DA as a Skald has. I'd rather have PBT on my Skald than the damage add anyday. How do you do 1 on 1 as battle warden?
I'm 39blades/14parry/47nurt/20regro... Pretty much can't even solo a SB outta stealth, haven't been able to kill anyone 1vs1 who is templated, just being honest... Even the ones who don't do tricky stuff like kiting and such.. My template is complete and I use the 4.4 speed blade that has ablative proc, which procs a lot...

Skalds are very long fights... I use fireblade then spectrum blade for haste debuff then I will use parry style backup with taunt.. Some fights I cannot get spectrum blade off at all because warden have no defense pen and very low WS... I get parried or evaded way too much... With the skalds it's eventually the DDs that kill me not their melee.. That's with full resists and resist buff vs their shout damage...

It's just extremely frustrating... Now I have had people in here attribute it to me only being rr3 but that's because I don't desire to play the class anymore.. They say if I had high Thornweave Field RA I'd be doing a lot better... This may be true but if I have to rely on a RA for my wins I'll have a fighting chance every 15minutes but other than that I'm just a sitting duck

you also said youre ~3l0 on that warden, not exactly strong. get some more RR so you can get some RAs and you might win a couple of fights.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:50 PM by Bradekes

Riac wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:48 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:46 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:37 PM
Same DA as a Skald has. I'd rather have PBT on my Skald than the damage add anyday. How do you do 1 on 1 as battle warden?
I'm 39blades/14parry/47nurt/20regro... Pretty much can't even solo a SB outta stealth, haven't been able to kill anyone 1vs1 who is templated, just being honest... Even the ones who don't do tricky stuff like kiting and such.. My template is complete and I use the 4.4 speed blade that has ablative proc, which procs a lot...

Skalds are very long fights... I use fireblade then spectrum blade for haste debuff then I will use parry style backup with taunt.. Some fights I cannot get spectrum blade off at all because warden have no defense pen and very low WS... I get parried or evaded way too much... With the skalds it's eventually the DDs that kill me not their melee.. That's with full resists and resist buff vs their shout damage...

It's just extremely frustrating... Now I have had people in here attribute it to me only being rr3 but that's because I don't desire to play the class anymore.. They say if I had high Thornweave Field RA I'd be doing a lot better... This may be true but if I have to rely on a RA for my wins I'll have a fighting chance every 15minutes but other than that I'm just a sitting duck

you also said youre ~3l0 on that warden, not exactly strong. get some more RR so you can get some RAs and you might win a couple of fights.

Why comment with info I already have within my post?

Sun 14 Apr 2019 7:15 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:50 PM
Why comment with info I already have within my post?

Might need to get that side style up, kite and heal yourself. That and try keeping detaunt defense up since you swing fast for low damage.

Other possibilities - have backup weapons on hand with debuffs, LT and DoT procs depending on situation. Wardens swing fast, use that to your advantage.

Also, make sure you always have Heal Pots/Legion charge available if you're not using it.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 7:36 PM by Riac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:50 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:48 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:46 PM
I'm 39blades/14parry/47nurt/20regro... Pretty much can't even solo a SB outta stealth, haven't been able to kill anyone 1vs1 who is templated, just being honest... Even the ones who don't do tricky stuff like kiting and such.. My template is complete and I use the 4.4 speed blade that has ablative proc, which procs a lot...

Skalds are very long fights... I use fireblade then spectrum blade for haste debuff then I will use parry style backup with taunt.. Some fights I cannot get spectrum blade off at all because warden have no defense pen and very low WS... I get parried or evaded way too much... With the skalds it's eventually the DDs that kill me not their melee.. That's with full resists and resist buff vs their shout damage...

It's just extremely frustrating... Now I have had people in here attribute it to me only being rr3 but that's because I don't desire to play the class anymore.. They say if I had high Thornweave Field RA I'd be doing a lot better... This may be true but if I have to rely on a RA for my wins I'll have a fighting chance every 15minutes but other than that I'm just a sitting duck

you also said youre ~3l0 on that warden, not exactly strong. get some more RR so you can get some RAs and you might win a couple of fights.

Why comment with info I already have within my post?

because youre not disclosing it here, and im assuming everyone hasnt read every post of this shit show. get higher than 3l0 then try melee spec maybe.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 7:50 PM by Bradekes

Riac wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 7:36 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:50 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:48 PM
you also said youre ~3l0 on that warden, not exactly strong. get some more RR so you can get some RAs and you might win a couple of fights.

Why comment with info I already have within my post?

because youre not disclosing it here, and im assuming everyone hasnt read every post of this shit show. get higher than 3l0 then try melee spec maybe.

Dude.. Reread that post dingus... I lterally disclosed that info right in it

Sun 14 Apr 2019 7:55 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 7:15 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:50 PM
Why comment with info I already have within my post?

Might need to get that side style up, kite and heal yourself. That and try keeping detaunt defense up since you swing fast for low damage.

Other possibilities - have backup weapons on hand with debuffs, LT and DoT procs depending on situation. Wardens swing fast, use that to your advantage.

Also, make sure you always have Heal Pots/Legion charge available if you're not using it.

The ablative outshines any other proc.. And just listen to yourself... Your stating that instead of conventional strength that other classes have, warden have to attempt to rely on weapon procs and that sounds like balance to you??

Being a solo warden most my fights are vs stealth so I'm diseased and snared even if i somehow manage my side snare in a 1vs1 I will not be able to gain enough distance to heal as that would allow either a restealth or straight up me giving them extra aytacks on myself to no avail...

Other classes also have ranged DD to interupt me maybe try to play one yourself before theory crafting

Sun 14 Apr 2019 7:58 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 7:55 PM
The ablative outshines any other proc.. And just listen to yourself... Your stating that instead of conventional strength that other classes have, warden have to attempt to rely on weapon procs and that sounds like balance to you??

Being a solo warden most my fights are vs stealth so I'm diseased and snared even if i somehow manage my side snare in a 1vs1 I will not be able to gain enough distance to heal as that would allow either a restealth or straight up me giving them extra aytacks on myself to no avail...

Other classes also have ranged DD to interupt me maybe try to play one yourself before theory crafting

No, it doesn't. For one it doesn't work against magic/poison, and you probably have ablative procs already. If Ablative goes off, then use one of the others. DoT will do more damage than Ablative blocks against a stealther. You don't have to "rely on weapon procs", it's that your base abilities give you a ton more of them so take advantage of that.

Being a solo warden most my fights are vs stealth so I'm diseased and snared even if i somehow manage my side snare in a 1vs1

So your complaint is that you can't 1v1 melee down an Assassin without using RAs ... okay. A damage table boost isn't going to help you here.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 8:07 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 7:58 PM
So your complaint is that you can't 1v1 melee down an Assassin without using RAs ... okay. A damage table boost isn't going to help you here.

That is far from my complaint... I have lost plenty to stealthers with or without being pa/bs.. But I also lose to pretty much anyone else who's templated.. I do win 1 vs 1 sometimes but i can tell they aren't templated or possibly not even level 50 yet.. This is the only class I have problems on as my other characters do well..

I'm playing on alb now though, where all the buffed classes are.. I'm having fun and will not play back on my warden so it's honestly not a big deal

Sun 14 Apr 2019 8:09 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 8:07 PM
That is far from my complaint... I have lost plenty to stealthers with or without being pa/bs.. But I also lose to pretty much anyone else who's templated.. I do win 1 vs 1 sometimes but i can tell they aren't templated or possibly not even level 50 yet.. This is the only class I have problems on as my other characters do well..

I'm playing on alb now though, where all the buffed classes are.. I'm having fun and will not play back on my warden so it's honestly not a big deal

It sounds like you just don't play the Warden well and would do better on another class.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 8:12 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 8:09 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 8:07 PM
That is far from my complaint... I have lost plenty to stealthers with or without being pa/bs.. But I also lose to pretty much anyone else who's templated.. I do win 1 vs 1 sometimes but i can tell they aren't templated or possibly not even level 50 yet.. This is the only class I have problems on as my other characters do well..

I'm playing on alb now though, where all the buffed classes are.. I'm having fun and will not play back on my warden so it's honestly not a big deal

It sounds like you just don't play the Warden well and would do better on another class.

Lol okay.. Play a melee warden report back.. Let's see how well you can play a class who's not designed for solo on this server

Mon 15 Apr 2019 1:16 AM by Dariussdars

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:47 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:39 PM
Who said I have an argument? What exactly do you not understand about a hybrid? A Thane won't nuke as hard as a true caster, and won't melee as well as a light tank or tank. Not sure what exactly you think your healing hybrid should be capable of?

You know thanes received a buff to their spells here right? 2.4cast speed with 183 delve spell is better than any casters baseline spells.. They also have access to slam so they don't need to melee as well..

Thanes also get no benefit from an acuity buff, like casters do.

Mon 15 Apr 2019 1:18 AM by Dariussdars

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 8:12 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 8:09 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 8:07 PM
That is far from my complaint... I have lost plenty to stealthers with or without being pa/bs.. But I also lose to pretty much anyone else who's templated.. I do win 1 vs 1 sometimes but i can tell they aren't templated or possibly not even level 50 yet.. This is the only class I have problems on as my other characters do well..

I'm playing on alb now though, where all the buffed classes are.. I'm having fun and will not play back on my warden so it's honestly not a big deal

It sounds like you just don't play the Warden well and would do better on another class.

Lol okay.. Play a melee warden report back.. Let's see how well you can play a class who's not designed for solo on this server

Word of advice, don't waste any time trying to have a discussion with Teiloh.

Mon 15 Apr 2019 1:40 AM by Bradekes

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Apr 2019 1:16 AM
Thanes also get no benefit from an acuity buff, like casters do.

That is true.. But I promise that's not going to hurt them too much.. Frostalfs have very high piety... Also most casters only have pot buffs for acuity.. Thane having 2.4 cast speed will even out the difference mostly.. My point is they are not hurting in either department melee or casting as they still are one damage table higher than warden, atleast with hammer, and cast 90-95% that of a caster.. Most casters don't get instant dd either so it's a pretty big advantage.. Getting str/con +duration based DA that's much higher than warden is good to boot

Tue 16 Apr 2019 7:51 PM by Pirhana7

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:05 PM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 8:52 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 10:15 PM
Yeah, no, that's not how that works. Wardens aren't comparable to Paladins or Friars. You don't make 1 to 1 comparisons like that across realm.

However, If Wardens were put to a higher damage table than Champs that realms offensive Hybrid, there would be no reason for them to exist.

With that logic no Champs should exists because of Vale Walkers being on a higher damage table as a melee hybrid...…. But champs still do exist. Because Champs, VWs, and Warden are all different play styles. If Wardens got a damage boost it would not effect champs in anyway. Champs would still be the king of 1v1 and groups that want a shield spec or 2hand damage over a 2nd warden that is melee damage

They fight for the same spot in a group, and fill the same role. Champs already struggle to compete with VW in RvR groups for their spot. No one cares about 1v1.

Not sure if you are talking about 1 or 2 Wardens In a group.... 1 spot in a group is pretty much exclusive to only a Warden, No group is going to take a Champ's damage / shield over a Wardens utility of PBT, Damage Add, Group Resists, Best Base Buffs, and heals/ melee interupting. Now if your talking about a 2nd Warden in the group then yes a Champ or pretty much any melee will be taken by a group before a 2nd Warden. And nothing would change on this if a Warden melee damage was raised slightly or put on the same table as a Champs. Group wise Bard, Druid, Druid, Warden is the standard the other 4 spots are for Heros, BMs, Chams, VWs, and casters to compete for.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 1:47 PM by Ashenspire

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Apr 2019 7:51 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:05 PM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 8:52 PM
With that logic no Champs should exists because of Vale Walkers being on a higher damage table as a melee hybrid...…. But champs still do exist. Because Champs, VWs, and Warden are all different play styles. If Wardens got a damage boost it would not effect champs in anyway. Champs would still be the king of 1v1 and groups that want a shield spec or 2hand damage over a 2nd warden that is melee damage

They fight for the same spot in a group, and fill the same role. Champs already struggle to compete with VW in RvR groups for their spot. No one cares about 1v1.

Not sure if you are talking about 1 or 2 Wardens In a group.... 1 spot in a group is pretty much exclusive to only a Warden, No group is going to take a Champ's damage / shield over a Wardens utility of PBT, Damage Add, Group Resists, Best Base Buffs, and heals/ melee interupting. Now if your talking about a 2nd Warden in the group then yes a Champ or pretty much any melee will be taken by a group before a 2nd Warden. And nothing would change on this if a Warden melee damage was raised slightly or put on the same table as a Champs. Group wise Bard, Druid, Druid, Warden is the standard the other 4 spots are for Heros, BMs, Chams, VWs, and casters to compete for.

My point was there is currently almost no reason to bring a Champion as is, as VW does the same role but better.

If Wardens were on the same table as champions, that would make champions even less attractive than they already are. They could then be replaced by a second Warden that has much more utility if you wanted another melee in the group.

Buffing Warden damage hurts Champions. It's a bad idea. Champions are already in a tough spot. Wardens see perfectly fine.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 4:08 PM by Fk_

50 Blunt Warden or bust~

Wed 17 Apr 2019 4:18 PM by Bradekes

Fk_ wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 4:08 PM
50 Blunt Warden or bust~

Give up way too much for that.. No damage gain passed 52 comp.. Then you have yellow/blue resists, pbt.. All for 50 style stun which is great but then you don't have enough in parry to pull it off

Wed 17 Apr 2019 4:33 PM by Fk_

7+21 parry and mo parry5 RA are fine versus what u mostly fight when solo (skalds/strels/sneaks) ~

You get 30% haste which makes for a decent swingspeed, plenty of time to combo and/or anytime for 120-140 depending on target (+Yellow DA damage/AOTG)

Of course you have to give up a lot for this spec, you want to play a hibernian skald when you do so. Warden is fine on pretty much every aspect of the class, wanting more is just greedy.

Friars, on the other hand could see a reverse of their damage table to make up for the big buffs they got on the support side. So they have to make significant spec choices.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 4:59 PM by Bradekes

Fk_ wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 4:33 PM
7+21 parry and mo parry5 RA are fine versus what u mostly fight when solo (skalds/strels/sneaks) ~

You get 30% haste which makes for a decent swingspeed, plenty of time to combo and/or anytime for 120-140 depending on target (+Yellow DA damage/AOTG)

Of course you have to give up a lot for this spec, you want to play a hibernian skald when you do so. Warden is fine on pretty much every aspect of the class, wanting more is just greedy.

Friars, on the other hand could see a reverse of their damage table to make up for the big buffs they got on the support side. So they have to make significant spec choices.

Then your a skald with lower dmg table, 1h, and no DDs..

They aren't going to nerf friars or buff warden

Plus, that's a crap spec, blades has good anytime haste debuff.. Then you have no endo reduction for sprint styling.. And yellow bubble which means you're taking one more hit every cycle of bubble.. And you also don't get the best weapon for warden which is the 4.4 speed blade

Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:05 AM by Sepplord

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 4:18 PM
Fk_ wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 4:08 PM
50 Blunt Warden or bust~

Give up way too much for that.. No damage gain passed 52 comp.. Then you have yellow/blue resists, pbt.. All for 50 style stun which is great but then you don't have enough in parry to pull it off

ofcourse 50blunt is a jokespec, don't think efke was serious with that

BUT isn't comp spec of 52 only the cap for dmg if you use styles from a different skillline? Aka. a lighttank only using DW/CD/LA styles can leave weaponspecc at 35+17...If the lighttank wants to use his weaponstyles then he would profit a lot from having 50+17 instead of 35+17.
So the composite 52 spec has only a meaning for classes that spec a weapon/dmg-type but use styles from a different skillline

Or is that incorrect? (i was about to ask that question in its own thread, but seemed to fit here now too)

Thu 18 Apr 2019 9:50 AM by Bradekes

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:05 AM
ofcourse 50blunt is a jokespec, don't think efke was serious with that

BUT isn't comp spec of 52 only the cap for dmg if you use styles from a different skillline? Aka. a lighttank only using DW/CD/LA styles can leave weaponspecc at 35+17...If the lighttank wants to use his weaponstyles then he would profit a lot from having 50+17 instead of 35+17.
So the composite 52 spec has only a meaning for classes that spec a weapon/dmg-type but use styles from a different skillline

Or is that incorrect? (i was about to ask that question in its own thread, but seemed to fit here now too)

My understanding is only specs like DW,LA,CD,CS profit for going over comp 52... The other exception is 2h weapons so midgard using a 1h sword w/sword style would not see extra going beyond comp 52 but once he swaps to a 2h and uses a sword style he would see extra dmg per spec point, of course beyond normal 2h bonus.

Against mobs it's different though, so you'll see a damage increase vs the dummy regardless

Thu 16 May 2019 12:18 AM by Pirhana7

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 1:47 PM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Apr 2019 7:51 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 9:05 PM
They fight for the same spot in a group, and fill the same role. Champs already struggle to compete with VW in RvR groups for their spot. No one cares about 1v1.

Not sure if you are talking about 1 or 2 Wardens In a group.... 1 spot in a group is pretty much exclusive to only a Warden, No group is going to take a Champ's damage / shield over a Wardens utility of PBT, Damage Add, Group Resists, Best Base Buffs, and heals/ melee interupting. Now if your talking about a 2nd Warden in the group then yes a Champ or pretty much any melee will be taken by a group before a 2nd Warden. And nothing would change on this if a Warden melee damage was raised slightly or put on the same table as a Champs. Group wise Bard, Druid, Druid, Warden is the standard the other 4 spots are for Heros, BMs, Chams, VWs, and casters to compete for.

My point was there is currently almost no reason to bring a Champion as is, as VW does the same role but better.

If Wardens were on the same table as champions, that would make champions even less attractive than they already are. They could then be replaced by a second Warden that has much more utility if you wanted another melee in the group.

Buffing Warden damage hurts Champions. It's a bad idea. Champions are already in a tough spot. Wardens see perfectly fine.

I understand your concern for Champions but raising the Wardens damage would not change anything on who a group would take. A group will always take 1 Warden for its Utility to make the group better over any other class. But a group will never take a 2nd Warden, especially over a Champion. A Champs damage out put and or shield would bring a lot more to a group than Warden #2s damage could ever do regardless of it was raised 1 level or 2. The only thing that would change is a Melee Warden's ability to fight 1v1 and do better

Thu 16 May 2019 4:27 PM by Tillbeast

Levelling a warden at the moment. Currently it is 48.5. To be honest was not really impressed with the class at low level but I stuck with it thinking surely its dps will improve at higher levels or my healing will be good enough to compensate for it....not in the slightest. I have played every single mid class to 50, most rr5+ and 70% of albs classes but I have never found a class to be as so insipid and dull as a warden. My druid when he specs into pet can kill mobs quicker than a warden and his heals are just as bad as an aug/cave shammie. They have absolute no use in any form of pve or pvp bar pbt. You can just turn on pbt and stick a group player and go afk and you will only be marginally less useful than one who is active. Bar pbt and twf they do nothing that comes close to be 50% of another class effective. Its a class finding himself in no mans land and in a place where it is really difficult to buff him. They are described as a fighter/healer but if you increase their dps to fighter levels that makes bm's etc less viable. Cannot give them healing to compare with a druid for obvious reasons but all realms off healers suffer from lass of instants etc. Only thing they are good at doing is being hardy but in pvp who kills the warden until its last target, not as if it can kill anything or heal anything. Only died once whilst levelling but burst dps and sustained dps is the key to pvp and a warden does not have the dps to burst anything and its heals will not delay a dps class's attack. Out of options outlined best option is all 3 at a minimum and 2.0 spec points to utilise extra points needed to get shield.

Best option for the class is too give pbt to metalists, twf too champions and delete them