The Archer Melee Issue Misconception

So After playing a NS, Thane, and Scout I have seen the issue archers complain about in melee from all 3 sides. I think the big misconception most people have is that they think Archers want to be archers and be able to take everyone on in straight up melee. but that's not the case. Yes they are Archers but their design is different than mages as to where mages do 100% of their killing from a range. Archers are suppose to do a mix of both, generally do a majority of the damage from range and then be able to finish off the target in melee and that's where the problem is.

Back in the day archers generally had to shoot their target to 50% life to have a decent chance of finishing them off in melee. getting the target to 30% or below generally ment you were going to win, unless it was a good 1v1 fighter like a Champ, VW, or Friar. And that was generally with high bow specs and medium melee specs.

On Pheonix its very different, even if you get your target 20% life with your bow you lose in the end melee fight, even in a lot of cases if they get to you with 10% life you still lose a lot. And on top of all that that is with archers speccing high in melee, generally with 44 melee weapon. This is why a lot of archers are complaining about melee survivability. I think a big thing that would help this would be the option to spec in Dodger Or Physical defense. No body wants archers to be able to compete in straight up melee but they should be strong enough to compete and finish off an enemy that is at 25% to 35% life imo.

Tue 2 Apr 2019 9:58 PM by Riac

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 9:30 PM
So After playing a NS, Thane, and Scout I have seen the issue archers complain about in melee from all 3 sides. I think the big misconception most people have is that they think Archers want to be archers and be able to take everyone on in straight up melee. but that's not the case. Yes they are Archers but their design is different than mages as to where mages do 100% of their killing from a range. Archers are suppose to do a mix of both, generally do a majority of the damage from range and then be able to finish off the target in melee and that's where the problem is.

Back in the day archers generally had to shoot their target to 50% life to have a decent chance of finishing them off in melee. getting the target to 30% or below generally ment you were going to win, unless it was a good 1v1 fighter like a Champ, VW, or Friar. And that was generally with high bow specs and medium melee specs.

On Pheonix its very different, even if you get your target 20% life with your bow you lose in the end melee fight, even in a lot of cases if they get to you with 10% life you still lose a lot. And on top of all that that is with archers speccing high in melee, generally with 44 melee weapon. This is why a lot of archers are complaining about melee survivability. I think a big thing that would help this would be the option to spec in Dodger Or Physical defense. No body wants archers to be able to compete in straight up melee but they should be strong enough to compete and finish off an enemy that is at 25% to 35% life imo.

Rangers with pd. That's a big no ty

Tue 2 Apr 2019 10:42 PM by Pirhana7

Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 9:58 PM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 9:30 PM
So After playing a NS, Thane, and Scout I have seen the issue archers complain about in melee from all 3 sides. I think the big misconception most people have is that they think Archers want to be archers and be able to take everyone on in straight up melee. but that's not the case. Yes they are Archers but their design is different than mages as to where mages do 100% of their killing from a range. Archers are suppose to do a mix of both, generally do a majority of the damage from range and then be able to finish off the target in melee and that's where the problem is.

Back in the day archers generally had to shoot their target to 50% life to have a decent chance of finishing them off in melee. getting the target to 30% or below generally ment you were going to win, unless it was a good 1v1 fighter like a Champ, VW, or Friar. And that was generally with high bow specs and medium melee specs.

On Pheonix its very different, even if you get your target 20% life with your bow you lose in the end melee fight, even in a lot of cases if they get to you with 10% life you still lose a lot. And on top of all that that is with archers speccing high in melee, generally with 44 melee weapon. This is why a lot of archers are complaining about melee survivability. I think a big thing that would help this would be the option to spec in Dodger Or Physical defense. No body wants archers to be able to compete in straight up melee but they should be strong enough to compete and finish off an enemy that is at 25% to 35% life imo.

Rangers with pd. That's a big no ty

Even if a Ranger had high PD here, he still isn't going to come close to beating anyone in straight melee other than other Archers. Its not PD + artifacts+ Mastery skills which everyone remembers. 30% absorb would just let archer survive melee a little longer. But if no PD what would you suggest?

Tue 2 Apr 2019 10:50 PM by Numatic

The problem isnt Archer bow damage or even melee damage. Its healing. Its heal procs and ablative and IP.

When you're trying to chunk down any melee class, when they get to you, they should be at 50% or less. And then you switch to melee. Depending on the class, that's when it becomes a fight. The problem is when that class throws IP and heals 80%, now you're having to kill them all over again with pure melee. Shield slam isnt very useful in most cases because it just gets purged most of the time. So with all that, if you're not staying at range you're not gunna have a good time. Having IP as an archer doesnt even the field because any melee class is just going to wreck you faster.

Problem is the answer isnt upping archer melee damage. That would be unfair to be able to chunk people from range and then outclass them in melee. I'm not quite sure how to fix that issue. I thought about maybe giving archers a skill like envenom in their bow line that added the ability to debuff with their bow. Maybe a melee resist debuff or something. Something that's not OP but can even the playing field a bit for melee encounters but not make them outclass in pure melee.

The problem with that is mainly rangers. Melee rangers are in fact a thing here and they do pretty well. So this mainly pertains to scouts and a little to hunters. But can you exclude them and buff the other two without an influx of whining? Because any boost to melee for archers in general would kick melee rangers into the OP line. However if you made the "debuff" skills high enough spec in bow it could avoid that as they couldn't spec high enough for it to be a melee ranger (I'd say make it 45-50 bow spec)

Tue 2 Apr 2019 11:06 PM by Riac

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 10:42 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 9:58 PM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 9:30 PM
So After playing a NS, Thane, and Scout I have seen the issue archers complain about in melee from all 3 sides. I think the big misconception most people have is that they think Archers want to be archers and be able to take everyone on in straight up melee. but that's not the case. Yes they are Archers but their design is different than mages as to where mages do 100% of their killing from a range. Archers are suppose to do a mix of both, generally do a majority of the damage from range and then be able to finish off the target in melee and that's where the problem is.

Back in the day archers generally had to shoot their target to 50% life to have a decent chance of finishing them off in melee. getting the target to 30% or below generally ment you were going to win, unless it was a good 1v1 fighter like a Champ, VW, or Friar. And that was generally with high bow specs and medium melee specs.

On Pheonix its very different, even if you get your target 20% life with your bow you lose in the end melee fight, even in a lot of cases if they get to you with 10% life you still lose a lot. And on top of all that that is with archers speccing high in melee, generally with 44 melee weapon. This is why a lot of archers are complaining about melee survivability. I think a big thing that would help this would be the option to spec in Dodger Or Physical defense. No body wants archers to be able to compete in straight up melee but they should be strong enough to compete and finish off an enemy that is at 25% to 35% life imo.

Rangers with pd. That's a big no ty

Even if a Ranger had high PD here, he still isn't going to come close to beating anyone in straight melee other than other Archers. Its not PD + artifacts+ Mastery skills which everyone remembers. 30% absorb would just let archer survive melee a little longer. But if no PD what would you suggest?

you must not have played old uthgarde. melee ranger was very strong there and viper was pretty much the only way sins killed them ( was a different viper there than the one we have here)

Tue 2 Apr 2019 11:59 PM by Pirhana7

Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 11:06 PM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 10:42 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 9:58 PM
Rangers with pd. That's a big no ty

Even if a Ranger had high PD here, he still isn't going to come close to beating anyone in straight melee other than other Archers. Its not PD + artifacts+ Mastery skills which everyone remembers. 30% absorb would just let archer survive melee a little longer. But if no PD what would you suggest?

you must not have played old uthgarde. melee ranger was very strong there and viper was pretty much the only way sins killed them ( was a different viper there than the one we have here)

No I didn't. but Other things were probably different as well. Im just looking at Rangers right now on Pheonix and how they are performing right now and with how badly they get destroyed by Inf and SBs I don't see PD making them come anywhere close to taking them in melee.. or other melee class. I just see it helping them to last a little longer in melee and maybe finish off more fights in melee after they open with a lot of Bow damage. Also if you really think PD would make them that much stronger it could also be limited to lesser level so they cant spec as high in it as before....

Wed 3 Apr 2019 12:08 AM by Riac

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 11:59 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 11:06 PM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 10:42 PM
Even if a Ranger had high PD here, he still isn't going to come close to beating anyone in straight melee other than other Archers. Its not PD + artifacts+ Mastery skills which everyone remembers. 30% absorb would just let archer survive melee a little longer. But if no PD what would you suggest?

you must not have played old uthgarde. melee ranger was very strong there and viper was pretty much the only way sins killed them ( was a different viper there than the one we have here)

No I didn't. but Other things were probably different as well. Im just looking at Rangers right now on Pheonix and how they are performing right now and with how badly they get destroyed by Inf and SBs I don't see PD making them come anywhere close to taking them in melee.. or other melee class. I just see it helping them to last a little longer in melee and maybe finish off more fights in melee after they open with a lot of Bow damage. Also if you really think PD would make them that much stronger it could also be limited to lesser level so they cant spec as high in it as before....

I wasn't aware rangers were having a hard time with sbs. You get ip/pot/charge heals with reactives, generally you outlast them. Esp since you're getting +10% dmg on them and I think they get -10% on you assuming you're blades. And if you're not blades you may want to consider trying it.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 12:23 AM by Numatic

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 11:59 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 11:06 PM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 10:42 PM
Even if a Ranger had high PD here, he still isn't going to come close to beating anyone in straight melee other than other Archers. Its not PD + artifacts+ Mastery skills which everyone remembers. 30% absorb would just let archer survive melee a little longer. But if no PD what would you suggest?

you must not have played old uthgarde. melee ranger was very strong there and viper was pretty much the only way sins killed them ( was a different viper there than the one we have here)

No I didn't. but Other things were probably different as well. Im just looking at Rangers right now on Pheonix and how they are performing right now and with how badly they get destroyed by Inf and SBs I don't see PD making them come anywhere close to taking them in melee.. or other melee class. I just see it helping them to last a little longer in melee and maybe finish off more fights in melee after they open with a lot of Bow damage. Also if you really think PD would make them that much stronger it could also be limited to lesser level so they cant spec as high in it as before....

The problem is the Archer class was never meant to have a high chance in a pure melee fight. Especially against sins which were, at this patch level, meant to counter the "Archer problem" they had on live. The only one that should outperform in melee is the hunter. They have the least effective bow spec. If you get caught by a sin while solo, just hope you can either chunk him down enough that someone else can come kill him or keep him occupied long enough to get help. Theres some classes that you just arent going to win against in a 1v1. Sins being one of them. The problem with giving Archers a "fighting chance" in a pure melee would make Sins less viable. Why role an assasin when you can be an archer with just as good melee and effectively kill from range?

Bumping up Archer melee isnt the answer. Nor is giving them PD. They need a more effective melee counter, not an increase in melee damage or something to make them live a little longer. What they need is something to reduce their opponents viability in melee combat without bumping their melee damage.

My suggestion posted above would be to have some sort of debuff (like a melee resist) added to their bow line with a high spec requirement (something like 45-50). This would prevent melee specced archers from taking too much advantage of a melee damage increase and instead put them in line with their intent, an Archer. This would also buff hunters a bit as they are a bit more melee heavy. It would also curb their viability in a 1v1 melee duel so they dont become OP against Sins. It would make bow archer more viable for their intent to chunk an enemy from range and fight 1v1 when the opponent reaches them.

Maybe make it a PB attack with their bow so they cant use it at range to increase bow damage.

I dont know honestly, I'm just spit balling. But just remember, even a small tweak can have a major impact on gameplay and that's what the devs need to be careful of.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 12:32 AM by Hodge

What if we apply a debuff/buff that makes your armor 10% for twenty seconds after using ignore pain? Casters would still be as they are now, but melee would be debuffed so archers have more of an advantage as they should in this scenario.

This would give a fair penalty for using a get out of jail free card.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 6:40 AM by Sepplord

Hodge wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 12:32 AM
What if we apply a debuff/buff that makes your armor 10% for twenty seconds after using ignore pain? Casters would still be as they are now, but melee would be debuffed so archers have more of an advantage as they should in this scenario.

This would give a fair penalty for using a get out of jail free card.

that nerfs the archers too doesn't it?

and how much sense does an RA make that heals you, but then decreases your defense? You could have simply suggested to nerf IP-healvalues for a similar effect...i fail to see how that helps archers though (and even if it would...why would you nerf an RA of several classes because one has problems?)

Wed 3 Apr 2019 5:22 PM by cere2

Wait, do I hear suggestions on debuff line to bow spec at 45-50 bow?
Can someone tell me when an archer sees a sin in stealth and has a chance to get a bow shot off?
Oh....never.
Fix stealth detection range on archers.
Full on melee rangers and hunters doing ok, have yet to see a scout full on melee spec.
This is if they have all the toys up. As soon as they don't, they also are free rps to any decent sin.
Fix stealth detection range on archers.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 5:34 PM by SaintRon

Are we wanting archers to win 1 v 1's ? I didn't think they were supposed to.

I always thought archers were more about picking off an unprepared straggler, caster in the back or helping in a bigger fight.

Are you guys saying the straggler is finding you then charging you and beating you?

Wed 3 Apr 2019 7:01 PM by cere2

SaintRon wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 5:34 PM
Are we wanting archers to win 1 v 1's ? I didn't think they were supposed to.

I always thought archers were more about picking off an unprepared straggler, caster in the back or helping in a bigger fight.

Are you guys saying the straggler is finding you then charging you and beating you?

No, archers aren't supposed to win 1v1's. They were made specifically for RP donations.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 7:56 PM by Amp_Phetamine

cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 7:01 PM
SaintRon wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 5:34 PM
Are we wanting archers to win 1 v 1's ? I didn't think they were supposed to.

I always thought archers were more about picking off an unprepared straggler, caster in the back or helping in a bigger fight.

Are you guys saying the straggler is finding you then charging you and beating you?

No, archers aren't supposed to win 1v1's. They were made specifically for RP leeching.

Corrected!

Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:07 PM by Numatic

cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 5:22 PM
Wait, do I hear suggestions on debuff line to bow spec at 45-50 bow?
Can someone tell me when an archer sees a sin in stealth and has a chance to get a bow shot off?
Oh....never.
Fix stealth detection range on archers.
Full on melee rangers and hunters doing ok, have yet to see a scout full on melee spec.
This is if they have all the toys up. As soon as they don't, they also are free rps to any decent sin.
Fix stealth detection range on archers.

Let me ask, if an assasin hits you out of stealth without PA, do you think you should win in a 1v1 pure melee duel? If the answer is yes then you chose the wrong stealther class for melee. Honestly melee archers shouldn't be a thing at all. The thread wasnt about stealth detection, it was about being able to melee a target down once they reach you while still being an Archer. And with the plethora of heal charges, IP, pots and procs, Archers are doing badly because they cant kill someone 1.5x with just melee. Being unable to use bow in melee is the Achilles heal, especially with scouts who cant really spec for melee because their counterparts can do it much better. Slam doesnt mean very much when everyone seems to only fight with purge up.

The solution isnt to increase melee dps. It's to make your target less viable in a melee confrontation. They need to be able to have a chance against a target who had to use IP and heal charges to confront an Archer in melee.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:23 PM by Mauriac

I think it would be interesting to see something in the bow line above 40 bow for all 3 archers that would do something like a 5 percent abs decrease on the target or a 10 percent attack speed debuff or something like that. A bow based snare would be bad since it would lead to perma kiting. But I don't see why bow archers shouldn't get a small boost at high spec in their bow line. This would make bow more viable and not impact melee spec archers at all.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:28 PM by cere2

Numatic wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:07 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 5:22 PM
Wait, do I hear suggestions on debuff line to bow spec at 45-50 bow?
Can someone tell me when an archer sees a sin in stealth and has a chance to get a bow shot off?
Oh....never.
Fix stealth detection range on archers.
Full on melee rangers and hunters doing ok, have yet to see a scout full on melee spec.
This is if they have all the toys up. As soon as they don't, they also are free rps to any decent sin.
Fix stealth detection range on archers.

Let me ask, if an assasin hits you out of stealth without PA, do you think you should win in a 1v1 pure melee duel? If the answer is yes then you chose the wrong stealther class for melee. Honestly melee archers shouldn't be a thing at all. The thread wasnt about stealth detection, it was about being able to melee a target down once they reach you while still being an Archer. And with the plethora of heal charges, IP, pots and procs, Archers are doing badly because they cant kill someone 1.5x with just melee. Being unable to use bow in melee is the Achilles heal, especially with scouts who cant really spec for melee because their counterparts can do it much better. Slam doesnt mean very much when everyone seems to only fight with purge up.

The solution isnt to increase melee dps. It's to make your target less viable in a melee confrontation. They need to be able to have a chance against a target who had to use IP and heal charges to confront an Archer in melee.

What the what? If a Sin hits an archer out of stealth without PA, they still going to have the advantage. Just might be a surprise to them if they have a battle on their hands. Right now its "typically" free rps.
I'm not sure if your saying an archer should kill something in melee or just die in melee everytime.
Melee archers shouldn't be a thing? They're not. If you spec full melee your archery is poo.
Should that mean any archer class shouldn't be able to compete in melee if they spec that way?
Should warden's be only able to spec heals then? How about friars? Just a bad argument your trying to make there....
I didn't say increase melee dps of archers....I said....wait for it....
Fix stealth detection range on archers.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:36 PM by k3mra

I do no longer what the new bow lines brought to daoc but wouldnt it be an option to change the current with the updated?

.. you know the one when we got the dot shots and other fun stuff

... to the idea with the debuff shots.
I dont think thats a good idea. If you run with an archer
in a melee group and debuff a assist target for the dmg type your Train does even 10% more dmg could be very op.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:37 PM by Numatic

cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:28 PM
Numatic wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:07 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 5:22 PM
Wait, do I hear suggestions on debuff line to bow spec at 45-50 bow?
Can someone tell me when an archer sees a sin in stealth and has a chance to get a bow shot off?
Oh....never.
Fix stealth detection range on archers.
Full on melee rangers and hunters doing ok, have yet to see a scout full on melee spec.
This is if they have all the toys up. As soon as they don't, they also are free rps to any decent sin.
Fix stealth detection range on archers.

Let me ask, if an assasin hits you out of stealth without PA, do you think you should win in a 1v1 pure melee duel? If the answer is yes then you chose the wrong stealther class for melee. Honestly melee archers shouldn't be a thing at all. The thread wasnt about stealth detection, it was about being able to melee a target down once they reach you while still being an Archer. And with the plethora of heal charges, IP, pots and procs, Archers are doing badly because they cant kill someone 1.5x with just melee. Being unable to use bow in melee is the Achilles heal, especially with scouts who cant really spec for melee because their counterparts can do it much better. Slam doesnt mean very much when everyone seems to only fight with purge up.

The solution isnt to increase melee dps. It's to make your target less viable in a melee confrontation. They need to be able to have a chance against a target who had to use IP and heal charges to confront an Archer in melee.

What the what? If a Sin hits an archer out of stealth without PA, they still going to have the advantage. Just might be a surprise to them if they have a battle on their hands. Right now its "typically" free rps.
I'm not sure if your saying an archer should kill something in melee or just die in melee everytime.
Melee archers shouldn't be a thing? They're not. If you spec full melee your archery is poo.
Should that mean any archer class shouldn't be able to compete in melee if they spec that way?
Should warden's be only able to spec heals then? How about friars? Just a bad argument your trying to make there....
I didn't say increase melee dps of archers....I said....wait for it....
Fix stealth detection range on archers.

It's a perfectly valid argument. Even if they gave archers the same detect range, what difference does it make? The same complaints will still be here about being food for assasins. The whole "getting hit by an assasin without PA" was what will happen if they gave archers the same detect range. You just wont get PA'd. They will still garrote you out of stealth and then you are back to square one. Look at someone like lollipop. They still hit for 200dmg a shot even though they are melee spec. So that's still poo? Having range at 200dmg a shot then do more melee dmg than a BM?

My point is the thread was talking about melee issues from an Archer target. You brought up stealth detection which will make little difference in a 1v1 melee fight (which this thread wasnt about).

Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:48 PM by Mauriac

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:23 PM
I think it would be interesting to see something in the bow line above 40 bow for all 3 archers that would do something like a 5 percent abs decrease on the target or a 10 percent attack speed debuff or something like that. A bow based snare would be bad since it would lead to perma kiting. But I don't see why bow archers shouldn't get a small boost at high spec in their bow line. This would make bow more viable and not impact melee spec archers at all.

I'm going to quote myself because I think this is a good place to start. FYI I play an SB and I think this would be a good idea. Because if I'm being honest, sniper spec archers are free rps 99 percent of the time and that's kinda lame. I do run full charges and buffs but still

Wed 3 Apr 2019 9:21 PM by waffel

SaintRon wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 5:34 PM
Are we wanting archers to win 1 v 1's ? I didn't think they were supposed to.

I always thought archers were more about picking off an unprepared straggler, caster in the back or helping in a bigger fight.

Are you guys saying the straggler is finding you then charging you and beating you?

Who is unprepared when they’re running around in an RvR zone? And solo visis generally aren’t running around solo, they’re porting or sticking with a zerg. (See: porting ruining aspects of DAoC)

And helping in a bigger fight is great and all, but with no speed they’re going to be forced to run around at sprint speed, visible and ungrouped, to try to keep up with the zerg fights they’re supposed to leech.

Maybe if we had more mile gate fights, or keep defense was a thing, it would be more enjoyable to leech off fights.

Not sure about other archers, but playing the ‘stand between PK and MG and try to find a soloer before an assassin does’ isn’t fun.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 9:26 PM by cere2

Numatic wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:37 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:28 PM
Numatic wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:07 PM
Let me ask, if an assasin hits you out of stealth without PA, do you think you should win in a 1v1 pure melee duel? If the answer is yes then you chose the wrong stealther class for melee. Honestly melee archers shouldn't be a thing at all. The thread wasnt about stealth detection, it was about being able to melee a target down once they reach you while still being an Archer. And with the plethora of heal charges, IP, pots and procs, Archers are doing badly because they cant kill someone 1.5x with just melee. Being unable to use bow in melee is the Achilles heal, especially with scouts who cant really spec for melee because their counterparts can do it much better. Slam doesnt mean very much when everyone seems to only fight with purge up.

The solution isnt to increase melee dps. It's to make your target less viable in a melee confrontation. They need to be able to have a chance against a target who had to use IP and heal charges to confront an Archer in melee.

What the what? If a Sin hits an archer out of stealth without PA, they still going to have the advantage. Just might be a surprise to them if they have a battle on their hands. Right now its "typically" free rps.
I'm not sure if your saying an archer should kill something in melee or just die in melee everytime.
Melee archers shouldn't be a thing? They're not. If you spec full melee your archery is poo.
Should that mean any archer class shouldn't be able to compete in melee if they spec that way?
Should warden's be only able to spec heals then? How about friars? Just a bad argument your trying to make there....
I didn't say increase melee dps of archers....I said....wait for it....
Fix stealth detection range on archers.

It's a perfectly valid argument. Even if they gave archers the same detect range, what difference does it make? The same complaints will still be here about being food for assasins. The whole "getting hit by an assasin without PA" was what will happen if they gave archers the same detect range. You just wont get PA'd. They will still garrote you out of stealth and then you are back to square one. Look at someone like lollipop. They still hit for 200dmg a shot even though they are melee spec. So that's still poo? Having range at 200dmg a shot then do more melee dmg than a BM?

My point is the thread was talking about melee issues from an Archer target. You brought up stealth detection which will make little difference in a 1v1 melee fight (which this thread wasnt about).

Stealth detection makes a huge difference. Taking a PA makes archers start battles just above or just below 50%. Not taking a PA makes it so regardless of melee spec or bow spec, they have a chance.
Doing more damage than a BM? How? Are rangers on a higher damage table than BM's? Color me surprised.
Do you know Lolli's spec? maybe its 22+15 bow? Full melee archers aren't hitting for near as much with bows as a bow or hybrid spec.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 9:35 PM by Mauriac

k3mra wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:36 PM
I do no longer what the new bow lines brought to daoc but wouldnt it be an option to change the current with the updated?

.. you know the one when we got the dot shots and other fun stuff

... to the idea with the debuff shots.
I dont think thats a good idea. If you run with an archer
in a melee group and debuff a assist target for the dmg type your Train does even 10% more dmg could be very op.

That's why you keep the values small. Don't do a 10 percent abs debuff. Do a 2 or 3 percent abs debuff and don't allow it to stack. Or do an attack speed debuff. There are lots of ways to think about this

Wed 3 Apr 2019 9:43 PM by Pirhana7

I just want to clearify something, I don't think an archer should win any fight in straight melee against any fighter class, or assassin class. This thread was solely about open on the target with bow and hurting them enough with bow that they could finish them off in melee. Im trying to figure out or give any ideas on what could help archers do that better because right now they really struggle even if the target is at 20% life when the archer enters melee.

Personally I think one of the assassins main roles is protecting their realm mates from ranged classes like mages and archers so the assassin should be able to sneak in and perf that archer with their bow drawn and dominate them in straight up melee.
Maybe, if an archer is NOT wielding a bow they could have slightly better detection and be able to avoid the perf. but they should never be able to go toe to toe in melee, just finish off a hurt target.

With that said, archers speccing in melee should be a little stronger than they currently are because they are not going 50 bow.
Another idea is archers could have some shout snares or roots so they have a chance to get away and shoot...

Wed 3 Apr 2019 9:49 PM by Pirhana7

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 12:08 AM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 11:59 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 11:06 PM
you must not have played old uthgarde. melee ranger was very strong there and viper was pretty much the only way sins killed them ( was a different viper there than the one we have here)

No I didn't. but Other things were probably different as well. Im just looking at Rangers right now on Pheonix and how they are performing right now and with how badly they get destroyed by Inf and SBs I don't see PD making them come anywhere close to taking them in melee.. or other melee class. I just see it helping them to last a little longer in melee and maybe finish off more fights in melee after they open with a lot of Bow damage. Also if you really think PD would make them that much stronger it could also be limited to lesser level so they cant spec as high in it as before....

I wasn't aware rangers were having a hard time with sbs. You get ip/pot/charge heals with reactives, generally you outlast them. Esp since you're getting +10% dmg on them and I think they get -10% on you assuming you're blades. And if you're not blades you may want to consider trying it.

I wasn't aware SBs were having trouble with Rangers, as far as ive seen all 3 archers die to all 3 assassins even with what you said. SBs still wreck Rangers because of the CS evade chain, and env. maybe some Rangers are able to compete with new low RR SBs but in even RRs SBs are still killing Rangers.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 9:53 PM by Mauriac

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 9:49 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 12:08 AM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 11:59 PM
No I didn't. but Other things were probably different as well. Im just looking at Rangers right now on Pheonix and how they are performing right now and with how badly they get destroyed by Inf and SBs I don't see PD making them come anywhere close to taking them in melee.. or other melee class. I just see it helping them to last a little longer in melee and maybe finish off more fights in melee after they open with a lot of Bow damage. Also if you really think PD would make them that much stronger it could also be limited to lesser level so they cant spec as high in it as before....

I wasn't aware rangers were having a hard time with sbs. You get ip/pot/charge heals with reactives, generally you outlast them. Esp since you're getting +10% dmg on them and I think they get -10% on you assuming you're blades. And if you're not blades you may want to consider trying it.

I wasn't aware SBs were having trouble with Rangers, as far as ive seen all 3 archers die to all 3 assassins even with what you said. SBs still wreck Rangers because of the CS evade chain, and env. maybe some Rangers are able to compete with new low RR SBs but in even RRs SBs are still killing Rangers.

Go check out the SB thread where I post an SS of an R4 blade Ranger hitting me for 198 vs my 102 despite running full charges and buffs. Melee blade Rangers are quite stronk. Sniper archers in general seem weak to me other than leeching.

Edit: I say that because as an SB my general experience fighting solo snipers is that if they do everything right the most likely outcome is that I will either escape or still kill them. If they make any mistake at all I will kill them. I am of the opinion that if they open at range they should have a chance to beat me and at the moment it doesn't seem like they do which I think is a big part of why you only see archers zerging or augmenting other zergs. The only solo archers I see are blade Rangers

Wed 3 Apr 2019 9:57 PM by florin

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 9:53 PM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 9:49 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 12:08 AM
I wasn't aware rangers were having a hard time with sbs. You get ip/pot/charge heals with reactives, generally you outlast them. Esp since you're getting +10% dmg on them and I think they get -10% on you assuming you're blades. And if you're not blades you may want to consider trying it.

I wasn't aware SBs were having trouble with Rangers, as far as ive seen all 3 archers die to all 3 assassins even with what you said. SBs still wreck Rangers because of the CS evade chain, and env. maybe some Rangers are able to compete with new low RR SBs but in even RRs SBs are still killing Rangers.

Go check out the SB thread where I post an SS of an R4 blade Ranger hitting me for 198 vs my 102 despite running full charges and buffs. Melee blade Rangers are quite stronk. Sniper archers in general seem weak to me other than leeching.

Edit: I say that because as an SB my general experience fighting solo snipers is that if they do everything right the most likely outcome is that I will either escape or still kill them. If they make any mistake at all I will kill them. I am of the opinion that if they open at range they should have a chance to beat me and at the moment it doesn't seem like they do which I think is a big part of why you only see archers zerging or augmenting other zergs. The only solo archers I see are blade Rangers

Melee blade rangers are indeed very stronk

Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:26 PM by noflex

Give archers a moc type ability at 45 or 50 bow

20 second uninterruptible bow ability to allow them to keep firing while being hit on a 15min cooldown

Mages get MOC, so should archers

Keeping it at 45 or 50 bow so melee spec archers couldn’t really use it

Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:55 PM by Amp_Phetamine

There is a very easy fix idea here. Implement camouflage/see hidden at 45+ bow. A pure bow spec archer should have the added bonus of better stealth and stealth detection as well as being more difficult to find while in stealth as they should have relatively poor melee capabilities. A high bow spec archer will absolutely have to deal 75-80% of their damage from range, they will be destroyed in straight melee combat.

This would give the players that prefer the pure archer archtype role a reason to spec high bow. Hybrid archers would still be capable of performing at all levels but will not have access to the additional stealth bonus/detection and full melee stealthers wouldn't really care for it anyways.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:53 PM by cere2

While I wouldn't mind having some abilities at 45-50 bow, I don't think having detection tie into it works.

It's really just as simple as either giving archers same detection range as sins, or increasing both by 100 units. This should be regardless of spec. Let archers avoid a free PA. Time to turn sideways/backwards/something...advantage still assassin, but at least archer isn't starting a battle at 50-60% hp and purge down every time...

Why should a minstrel have same detection as an archer?

Like I have said in previous posts, phoenix has brought something entirely new to stealth game. Sin's are regularly landing PA on archers.

It's just a bogus system at the moment.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 4:20 PM by Horus

I recently leveled up a 2nd ranger. My 1st is a RR5 pierce luri. This little keen was skid mark all over the frontier. Zero chance against any melee toon. I kept hearing all this stuff about blades so I made a celt blade melee spec hoping to have a diff playing experience than just zerg humping spray and pray.

Even though the 2nd guy is still only RR3 ish I do notice the celt is a bit better at melee. I still lose vs assassins most of the time but I feel like I have at least a slim chance until they vanish (but that is another story).

That being said, the other day I watched a reaver jump out of the back of a keep...he had a about 15% health. I shot em once and engaged in melee and still lost....
/sad trombone

If there is an issue here, it is that you are forced to spec melee to have a fighting chance. Bow is secondary concern (Which is why most archers are bothered. They chose archers to be archers, not watered down NS/SB/Infilts with no envenom but a bit of range).

I guess if you embrace the current archetype of archers as 2nd rate melee fighters with a handy bow ability, instead of 1st rate ranged class with some handy 2nd rate melee, might not be so bothersome.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 4:47 PM by Riac

Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 4:20 PM
I recently leveled up a 2nd ranger. My 1st is a RR5 pierce luri. This little keen was skid mark all over the frontier. Zero chance against any melee toon. I kept hearing all this stuff about blades so I made a celt blade melee spec hoping to have a diff playing experience than just zerg humping spray and pray.

Even though the 2nd guy is still only RR3 ish I do notice the celt is a bit better at melee. I still lose vs assassins most of the time but I feel like I have at least a slim chance until they vanish (but that is another story).

That being said, the other day I watched a reaver jump out of the back of a keep...he had a about 15% health. I shot em once and engaged in melee and still lost....
/sad trombone

If there is an issue here, it is that you are forced to spec melee to have a fighting chance. Bow is secondary concern (Which is why most archers are bothered. They chose archers to be archers, not watered down NS/SB/Infilts with no envenom but a bit of range).

I guess if you embrace the current archetype of archers as 2nd rate melee fighters with a handy bow ability, instead of 1st rate ranged class with some handy 2nd rate melee, might not be so bothersome.

i played a celt m ranger on old uth and a small rule of thumb i used. never fuck with reavers/friars/necros/sms.
also you will get much stronger with higher ip and purge.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:18 PM by Mauriac

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:55 PM
There is a very easy fix idea here. Implement camouflage/see hidden at 45+ bow. A pure bow spec archer should have the added bonus of better stealth and stealth detection as well as being more difficult to find while in stealth as they should have relatively poor melee capabilities. A high bow spec archer will absolutely have to deal 75-80% of their damage from range, they will be destroyed in straight melee combat.

This would give the players that prefer the pure archer archtype role a reason to spec high bow. Hybrid archers would still be capable of performing at all levels but will not have access to the additional stealth bonus/detection and full melee stealthers wouldn't really care for it anyways.

Atrocious idea. Do this and you will get uthgard 1.0 again with sniper spec Rangers destroying everyone with the added bonus of seeing all sneaks in stealth before they're seen therefore guaranteeing crit shots and perma kiting. Uth 1 was terrible for this

Edit: was thinking about this issue last evening and I'm sure everyone remembers the rr5 abilities that scouts and hunters had which were aoe snares that disarmed them. I would not want to see those in that form. I would however wonder if adding a single target snare usable only in melee range that lasts 4 or 5 seconds to the bow line wouldn't be a bad thing above 40 bow. Just spit balling ideas

Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:51 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:18 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:55 PM
There is a very easy fix idea here. Implement camouflage/see hidden at 45+ bow. A pure bow spec archer should have the added bonus of better stealth and stealth detection as well as being more difficult to find while in stealth as they should have relatively poor melee capabilities. A high bow spec archer will absolutely have to deal 75-80% of their damage from range, they will be destroyed in straight melee combat.

This would give the players that prefer the pure archer archtype role a reason to spec high bow. Hybrid archers would still be capable of performing at all levels but will not have access to the additional stealth bonus/detection and full melee stealthers wouldn't really care for it anyways.

Atrocious idea. Do this and you will get uthgard 1.0 again with sniper spec Rangers destroying everyone with the added bonus of seeing all sneaks in stealth before they're seen therefore guaranteeing crit shots and perma kiting. Uth 1 was terrible for this

Edit: was thinking about this issue last evening and I'm sure everyone remembers the rr5 abilities that scouts and hunters had which were aoe snares that disarmed them. I would not want to see those in that form. I would however wonder if adding a single target snare usable only in melee range that lasts 4 or 5 seconds to the bow line wouldn't be a bad thing above 40 bow. Just spit balling ideas

Not sure what's atrocious about this concept. You can't compare it to Uthgard.. this server is nothing like Uthgard. I'm not asking for increased bow damage here. Archers who already spec 50 points into bow would see absolutely no difference aside form better stealth/detection lol. I think your personal bias is showing.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:55 PM by Amp_Phetamine

cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:53 PM
While I wouldn't mind having some abilities at 45-50 bow, I don't think having detection tie into it works.

It's really just as simple as either giving archers same detection range as sins, or increasing both by 100 units. This should be regardless of spec. Let archers avoid a free PA. Time to turn sideways/backwards/something...advantage still assassin, but at least archer isn't starting a battle at 50-60% hp and purge down every time...

Why should a minstrel have same detection as an archer?

Like I have said in previous posts, phoenix has brought something entirely new to stealth game. Sin's are regularly landing PA on archers.

It's just a bogus system at the moment.

What about tying MoS into bow spec?

Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:57 PM by Mauriac

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:51 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:18 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:55 PM
There is a very easy fix idea here. Implement camouflage/see hidden at 45+ bow. A pure bow spec archer should have the added bonus of better stealth and stealth detection as well as being more difficult to find while in stealth as they should have relatively poor melee capabilities. A high bow spec archer will absolutely have to deal 75-80% of their damage from range, they will be destroyed in straight melee combat.

This would give the players that prefer the pure archer archtype role a reason to spec high bow. Hybrid archers would still be capable of performing at all levels but will not have access to the additional stealth bonus/detection and full melee stealthers wouldn't really care for it anyways.

Atrocious idea. Do this and you will get uthgard 1.0 again with sniper spec Rangers destroying everyone with the added bonus of seeing all sneaks in stealth before they're seen therefore guaranteeing crit shots and perma kiting. Uth 1 was terrible for this

Edit: was thinking about this issue last evening and I'm sure everyone remembers the rr5 abilities that scouts and hunters had which were aoe snares that disarmed them. I would not want to see those in that form. I would however wonder if adding a single target snare usable only in melee range that lasts 4 or 5 seconds to the bow line wouldn't be a bad thing above 40 bow. Just spit balling ideas

Not sure what's atrocious about this concept. You can't compare it to Uthgard.. this server is nothing like Uthgard. I'm not asking for increased bow damage here. Archers who already spec 50 points into bow would see absolutely no difference aside form better stealth/detection lol. I think your personal bias is showing.

Nooooo, I played uthgard 1.0. Inverting the stealth detection led to Rangers being almost unkillable and forced sins and other archers to zerg to compensate. This led the Rangers to zerg and turned uthgard 1 into a giant mile gate camping stealth circle jerk that dwarfed what happens on Phoenix despite having 20% of the population. The issue this thread is about isn't about stealth detection or archers vs stealthers. The OP brought up that archers can't finish off the vast majority of targets in melee even if they get them to 20% and do everything right which is both a legit complaint and a valid problem. Your suggestion does nothing to address this but would just cause more stealth zerging and create a new class of perma snipers who can't be hunted. It has nothing to do with whatever bias you think I have it has to do with you not comprehending the full picture..... Again....

Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:58 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 4:20 PM
I recently leveled up a 2nd ranger. My 1st is a RR5 pierce luri. This little keen was skid mark all over the frontier. Zero chance against any melee toon. I kept hearing all this stuff about blades so I made a celt blade melee spec hoping to have a diff playing experience than just zerg humping spray and pray.

Even though the 2nd guy is still only RR3 ish I do notice the celt is a bit better at melee. I still lose vs assassins most of the time but I feel like I have at least a slim chance until they vanish (but that is another story).

That being said, the other day I watched a reaver jump out of the back of a keep...he had a about 15% health. I shot em once and engaged in melee and still lost....
/sad trombone

If there is an issue here, it is that you are forced to spec melee to have a fighting chance. Bow is secondary concern (Which is why most archers are bothered. They chose archers to be archers, not watered down NS/SB/Infilts with no envenom but a bit of range).

I guess if you embrace the current archetype of archers as 2nd rate melee fighters with a handy bow ability, instead of 1st rate ranged class with some handy 2nd rate melee, might not be so bothersome.

I ran into a luri ranger - can't recall his name "Slimjim" or something like that. Dude hit me for 800 with his crit shot. Was most definitely setup for bow game play. I'd assume he'd struggle against any of the assassins though or anything he couldn't engage from range, but that bow dps was nasty.

I really don't see a problem tying in stealth bonuses for archers into Bow spec. Obviously to obtain the maximum benefit you'd have to spec 50 bow; however, hybrids could still gain a bit of an advantage and pure melee archers wouldn't really require it to begin with.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:02 PM by cere2

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:55 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:53 PM
While I wouldn't mind having some abilities at 45-50 bow, I don't think having detection tie into it works.

It's really just as simple as either giving archers same detection range as sins, or increasing both by 100 units. This should be regardless of spec. Let archers avoid a free PA. Time to turn sideways/backwards/something...advantage still assassin, but at least archer isn't starting a battle at 50-60% hp and purge down every time...

Why should a minstrel have same detection as an archer?

Like I have said in previous posts, phoenix has brought something entirely new to stealth game. Sin's are regularly landing PA on archers.

It's just a bogus system at the moment.

What about tying MoS into bow spec?

That could work, depending on what Sin's would need to spec to get it as well.
It's hard honestly to say, because if rangers need to spec say 45 bow to get mos8, it really does nothing else for them as far as damage goes, which may be just fine for a lot of people including myself.
But what about Sin's? Spec 45 in stealth for mos8? I can already hear the qq from the distance. They wouldn't want to waste spec points just to see archers....and archers would get atleast 20 more damage from 35 bow to 45 bow so, no fair! You know how it goes...

Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:03 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:57 PM
Nooooo, I played uthgard 1.0. Inverting the stealth detection led to Rangers being almost unkillable and forced sins and other archers to zerg to compensate. This led the Rangers to zerg and turned uthgard 1 into a giant mile gate camping stealth circle jerk that dwarfed what happens on Phoenix despite having 20% of the population. The issue this thread is about isn't about stealth detection or archers vs stealthers. The OP brought up that archers can't finish off the vast majority of targets in melee even if they get them to 20% and do everything right which is both a legit complaint and a valid problem. Your suggestion does nothing to address this but would just cause more stealth zerging and create a new class of perma snipers who can't be hunted. It has nothing to do with whatever bias you think I have it has to do with you not comprehending the full picture..... Again....

So instead of including "detection" capabilities that caused more issues than what it was implemented to solve on uthgard, why not just limit it to camouflage?

Max bow spec'd archers would still retain their detect hidden range; they'd just simultaneously be more difficult to detect by assassins.

There's nothing really to do regarding archer's melee capabilities. Obviously there are some very good players that can perform well as pure melee archers but other then that archers will always be at a disadvantage if they engage in melee combat against a class designed to excel in melee combat with all other variables considered relatively equal.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:05 PM by Mauriac

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:03 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:57 PM
Nooooo, I played uthgard 1.0. Inverting the stealth detection led to Rangers being almost unkillable and forced sins and other archers to zerg to compensate. This led the Rangers to zerg and turned uthgard 1 into a giant mile gate camping stealth circle jerk that dwarfed what happens on Phoenix despite having 20% of the population. The issue this thread is about isn't about stealth detection or archers vs stealthers. The OP brought up that archers can't finish off the vast majority of targets in melee even if they get them to 20% and do everything right which is both a legit complaint and a valid problem. Your suggestion does nothing to address this but would just cause more stealth zerging and create a new class of perma snipers who can't be hunted. It has nothing to do with whatever bias you think I have it has to do with you not comprehending the full picture..... Again....

So instead of including "detection" capabilities that caused more issues than what it was implemented to solve on uthgard, why not just limit it to camouflage?

Max bow spec'd archers would still retain their detect hidden range; they'd just simultaneously be more difficult to detect by assassins.

There's nothing really to do regarding archer's melee capabilities. Obviously there are some very good players that can perform well as pure melee archers but other then that archers will always be at a disadvantage if they engage in melee combat against a class designed to excel in melee combat with all other variables considered relatively equal.

I don't have an issue with camo. Assuming it's like the old one with a long combat timer. I don't know why it's not here. Probably because see hidden isn't. See hidden was dumb anyway (the RA)

Edit: see hidden was dumb for the same reasons I outlined above. It forced zerging to combat OP sin stealth detection. Basically a reverse of what we saw on uthgard 1. I'm glad it's not here. It was stupid and OP

Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:10 PM by Riac

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:05 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:03 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:57 PM
Nooooo, I played uthgard 1.0. Inverting the stealth detection led to Rangers being almost unkillable and forced sins and other archers to zerg to compensate. This led the Rangers to zerg and turned uthgard 1 into a giant mile gate camping stealth circle jerk that dwarfed what happens on Phoenix despite having 20% of the population. The issue this thread is about isn't about stealth detection or archers vs stealthers. The OP brought up that archers can't finish off the vast majority of targets in melee even if they get them to 20% and do everything right which is both a legit complaint and a valid problem. Your suggestion does nothing to address this but would just cause more stealth zerging and create a new class of perma snipers who can't be hunted. It has nothing to do with whatever bias you think I have it has to do with you not comprehending the full picture..... Again....

So instead of including "detection" capabilities that caused more issues than what it was implemented to solve on uthgard, why not just limit it to camouflage?

Max bow spec'd archers would still retain their detect hidden range; they'd just simultaneously be more difficult to detect by assassins.

There's nothing really to do regarding archer's melee capabilities. Obviously there are some very good players that can perform well as pure melee archers but other then that archers will always be at a disadvantage if they engage in melee combat against a class designed to excel in melee combat with all other variables considered relatively equal.

I don't have an issue with camo. Assuming it's like the old one with a long combat timer. I don't know why it's not here. Probably because see hidden isn't. See hidden was dumb anyway (the RA)

I don't
Edit: see hidden was dumb for the same reasons I outlined above. It forced zerging to combat OP sin stealth detection. Basically a reverse of what we saw on uthgard 1. I'm glad it's not here. It was stupid and OP

I don't mind old camouflage either, but wasn't detect or see hidden (not the ra) a sin passive?

Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:13 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:10 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:05 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:03 PM
So instead of including "detection" capabilities that caused more issues than what it was implemented to solve on uthgard, why not just limit it to camouflage?

Max bow spec'd archers would still retain their detect hidden range; they'd just simultaneously be more difficult to detect by assassins.

There's nothing really to do regarding archer's melee capabilities. Obviously there are some very good players that can perform well as pure melee archers but other then that archers will always be at a disadvantage if they engage in melee combat against a class designed to excel in melee combat with all other variables considered relatively equal.

I don't have an issue with camo. Assuming it's like the old one with a long combat timer. I don't know why it's not here. Probably because see hidden isn't. See hidden was dumb anyway (the RA)

I don't
Edit: see hidden was dumb for the same reasons I outlined above. It forced zerging to combat OP sin stealth detection. Basically a reverse of what we saw on uthgard 1. I'm glad it's not here. It was stupid and OP

I don't mind old camouflage either, but wasn't detect or see hidden (not the ra) a sin passive?

Yeah old see hidden was a sin passive; could see players in stealth up to clip range pretty much.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:13 PM by Mauriac

Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:10 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:05 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:03 PM
So instead of including "detection" capabilities that caused more issues than what it was implemented to solve on uthgard, why not just limit it to camouflage?

Max bow spec'd archers would still retain their detect hidden range; they'd just simultaneously be more difficult to detect by assassins.

There's nothing really to do regarding archer's melee capabilities. Obviously there are some very good players that can perform well as pure melee archers but other then that archers will always be at a disadvantage if they engage in melee combat against a class designed to excel in melee combat with all other variables considered relatively equal.

I don't have an issue with camo. Assuming it's like the old one with a long combat timer. I don't know why it's not here. Probably because see hidden isn't. See hidden was dumb anyway (the RA)

I don't
Edit: see hidden was dumb for the same reasons I outlined above. It forced zerging to combat OP sin stealth detection. Basically a reverse of what we saw on uthgard 1. I'm glad it's not here. It was stupid and OP

I don't mind old camouflage either, but wasn't detect or see hidden (not the ra) a sin passive?

There were two. One was passive and the other was an RA. The passive increased your stealth detection vs non sins by about 100 units. The RA by about 800 which is why it was stupid. And it was a 5 point RA. Dumb

Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:14 PM by Riac

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:13 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:10 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:05 PM
I don't have an issue with camo. Assuming it's like the old one with a long combat timer. I don't know why it's not here. Probably because see hidden isn't. See hidden was dumb anyway (the RA)

I don't
Edit: see hidden was dumb for the same reasons I outlined above. It forced zerging to combat OP sin stealth detection. Basically a reverse of what we saw on uthgard 1. I'm glad it's not here. It was stupid and OP

I don't mind old camouflage either, but wasn't detect or see hidden (not the ra) a sin passive?

Yeah old see hidden was a sin passive; could see players in stealth up to clip range pretty much.

I def don't remember it being clip range good. Tbh I don't remember it being that good at all, esp when compared to high mos.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:15 PM by Mauriac

Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:14 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:13 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:10 PM
I don't mind old camouflage either, but wasn't detect or see hidden (not the ra) a sin passive?

Yeah old see hidden was a sin passive; could see players in stealth up to clip range pretty much.

I def don't remember it being clip range good. Tbh I don't remember it being that good at all, esp when compared to high mos.

You're confusing old ras and new ras. See hidden was an old RA back when Mos only impacted move speed. It was changed in NF

Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:16 PM by cere2

See hidden was passive for Sins, true sight for archers was RA.
Camo was a given ability on a 30 minute...RUT.
That's a band-aid.
If archers had 250 stealth detection just like sins do now. What changes?
Anyone else want to comment on this?
Only change I see, is that archers might not get PA'd nearly as much as now.
And honestly I think that might be all that needs to be changed for now.
Give us a chance to start fight with 90% and purge up instead of 50% and purge down....see what happens

Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:20 PM by Mauriac

cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:16 PM
See hidden was passive for Sins, true sight for archers was RA.
Camo was a given ability on a 30 minute...RUT.
That's a band-aid.
If archers had 250 stealth detection just like sins do now. What changes?
Anyone else want to comment on this?
Only change I see, is that archers might not get PA'd nearly as much as now.
And honestly I think that might be all that needs to be changed for now.
Give us a chance to start fight with 90% and purge up instead of 50% and purge down....see what happens

I'd be all on board about the time I get crush damage and not shit damage tables for slash

Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:24 PM by cere2

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:20 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 6:16 PM
See hidden was passive for Sins, true sight for archers was RA.
Camo was a given ability on a 30 minute...RUT.
That's a band-aid.
If archers had 250 stealth detection just like sins do now. What changes?
Anyone else want to comment on this?
Only change I see, is that archers might not get PA'd nearly as much as now.
And honestly I think that might be all that needs to be changed for now.
Give us a chance to start fight with 90% and purge up instead of 50% and purge down....see what happens

I'd be all on board about the time I get crush damage and not shit damage tables for slash

Somehow I knew this was tied into the shadowblade crap. Because....full melee spec rangers....

Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:08 AM by Estrema

if want balance the archer...................need to give sure shot, and give an ra on ranger because scout and hunter have one specific ra but ranger no, hunter can increase pet damage, scout can increase block rate, ranger dont have nothing need one ra like dual reflex

Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:23 AM by Cadebrennus

The real issue here regarding see hidden and whatnot is that there are the equivalent of NF RAs in the game for everyone but Archers. MOS as an RA was the best possible way to balance out stealthers vs one another, allowing the players themselves to make their own decisions about how far they wanted a detection range Vs damage RAs. It's the same sort of thought process that goes into how much Det and Purge that tanks have to deal with before pumping realm points into damage RAs.

Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:29 AM by Tillbeast

Estrema wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:08 AM
if want balance the archer...................need to give sure shot, and give an ra on ranger because scout and hunter have one specific ra but ranger no, hunter can increase pet damage, scout can increase block rate, ranger dont have nothing need one ra like dual reflex

To be fair I don't think a single hunter in the history of DAoC has taken wild minion as an RA although mastery of block sees a lot of use by scouts. Maybe give rangers a RA that increases the cast time of their buffs, that's about as useful as what wild minion is too a hunter.

Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:31 AM by Riac

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:29 AM
Estrema wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:08 AM
if want balance the archer...................need to give sure shot, and give an ra on ranger because scout and hunter have one specific ra but ranger no, hunter can increase pet damage, scout can increase block rate, ranger dont have nothing need one ra like dual reflex

To be fair I don't think a single hunter in the history of DAoC has taken wild minion as an RA although mastery of block sees a lot of use by scouts. Maybe give rangers a RA that increases the cast time of their buffs, that's about as useful as what wild minion is too a hunter.

i feel like increasing cast time on the buffs is the wrong way to go with this, but if we are talking about reducing cast time on buffs i feel like we are right on the money :p

Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:38 AM by Tillbeast

Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:31 AM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:29 AM
Estrema wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:08 AM
if want balance the archer...................need to give sure shot, and give an ra on ranger because scout and hunter have one specific ra but ranger no, hunter can increase pet damage, scout can increase block rate, ranger dont have nothing need one ra like dual reflex

To be fair I don't think a single hunter in the history of DAoC has taken wild minion as an RA although mastery of block sees a lot of use by scouts. Maybe give rangers a RA that increases the cast time of their buffs, that's about as useful as what wild minion is too a hunter.

i feel like increasing cast time on the buffs is the wrong way to go with this, but if we are talking about reducing cast time on buffs i feel like we are right on the money :p

Oops meant to say reduce cast time.

Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:44 AM by Riac

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:38 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:31 AM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:29 AM
To be fair I don't think a single hunter in the history of DAoC has taken wild minion as an RA although mastery of block sees a lot of use by scouts. Maybe give rangers a RA that increases the cast time of their buffs, that's about as useful as what wild minion is too a hunter.

i feel like increasing cast time on the buffs is the wrong way to go with this, but if we are talking about reducing cast time on buffs i feel like we are right on the money :p

Oops meant to say reduce cast time.

its obv satire anyways :p

Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:54 AM by Sepplord

i didn't think we would see the day where someone argues for a ranger buff to offset hunters getting an RA that increases pet dmg...but here we are

Cadebrennus wrote: The real issue here regarding see hidden and whatnot is that there are the equivalent of NF RAs in the game for everyone but Archers. MOS as an RA was the best possible way to balance out stealthers vs one another, allowing the players themselves to make their own decisions about how far they wanted a detection range Vs damage RAs. It's the same sort of thought process that goes into how much Det and Purge that tanks have to deal with before pumping realm points into damage RAs.

Didn't many classes lose dodger too?
i can only imagine the QQ when archers get to see assassins early enough to shoot them, and they simply evade everything and PA you anyways

PS: not trying to dismiss your point completely....i just don't think that there is a single thing that everything can be reduced down to

Fri 5 Apr 2019 9:39 AM by Estrema

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:29 AM
Estrema wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:08 AM
if want balance the archer...................need to give sure shot, and give an ra on ranger because scout and hunter have one specific ra but ranger no, hunter can increase pet damage, scout can increase block rate, ranger dont have nothing need one ra like dual reflex

To be fair I don't think a single hunter in the history of DAoC has taken wild minion as an RA although mastery of block sees a lot of use by scouts. Maybe give rangers a RA that increases the cast time of their buffs, that's about as useful as what wild minion is too a hunter.

no one use but there is a unique ra for archer mid.....need ranger also an unique, speed cast for buff is useless in few second you have make all 4 buff, ok dualist reflex is strong ra ( maybe) can't give pa only a ranger but can give one like the old desperate bowman you set active like purege or vanish ecc ecc

Fri 5 Apr 2019 11:06 AM by Tillbeast

Estrema wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 9:39 AM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:29 AM
Estrema wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:08 AM
if want balance the archer...................need to give sure shot, and give an ra on ranger because scout and hunter have one specific ra but ranger no, hunter can increase pet damage, scout can increase block rate, ranger dont have nothing need one ra like dual reflex

To be fair I don't think a single hunter in the history of DAoC has taken wild minion as an RA although mastery of block sees a lot of use by scouts. Maybe give rangers a RA that increases the cast time of their buffs, that's about as useful as what wild minion is too a hunter.
no one use but there is a unique ra for archer mid.....need ranger also an unique, speed cast for buff is useless in few second you have make all 4 buff, ok dualist reflex is strong ra ( maybe) can't give pa only a ranger but can give one like the old desperate bowman you set active like purege or vanish ecc ecc

Giving a ranger a useful unique RA will be a little unfair. They still are the best all round archer out of the 3. A speed buff for rangers buffs is as I said about the same power level as a hunter who spends rp's on wild minion which is pretty useless to be honest. Give both hunters and rangers an RA that is as much useful too them as MoB is too a scout is more a fair adjustment.

Fri 5 Apr 2019 11:15 AM by armath

The ranger is fine, its a question about spec for the most part I think.

I played a ranger back in the day, and any assassin would rip me apart in melee unless my toys were up.

On Excalibur, several melee rangers used nightshade bots to envenom their weapons to be able to stand a chance vs. others in melee, and even then they didnt win except for if their toys were up.

Last night on phoenix, I got 4 shot by a ranger on my shadowblade, and the past few days ive seen an increase in rangers adding fights with the bow.

If you want to rip melee as a ranger, go shar and full melee, get IP3-5 and start rolling.

Fri 5 Apr 2019 1:41 PM by Estrema

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 11:06 AM
Estrema wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 9:39 AM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:29 AM
To be fair I don't think a single hunter in the history of DAoC has taken wild minion as an RA although mastery of block sees a lot of use by scouts. Maybe give rangers a RA that increases the cast time of their buffs, that's about as useful as what wild minion is too a hunter.
no one use but there is a unique ra for archer mid.....need ranger also an unique, speed cast for buff is useless in few second you have make all 4 buff, ok dualist reflex is strong ra ( maybe) can't give pa only a ranger but can give one like the old desperate bowman you set active like purege or vanish ecc ecc
Giving a ranger a useful unique RA will be a little unfair. They still are the best all round archer out of the 3. A speed buff for rangers buffs is as I said about the same power level as a hunter who spends rp's on wild minion which is pretty useless to be honest. Give both hunters and rangers an RA that is as much useful too them as MoB is too a scout is more a fair adjustment.

ok give to all archer sureshot and alll happy