Solo/Small Man RvR Incentives

Started 17 Jul 2018
by Bumbles
in Suggestions
So had a thought on how to promote people playing and RvRing without waiting around for a full optimal 8man setup and that is to give a RP bonus that's directly opposite the exp bonus you currently have set in game. It's simple a solo player who kills someone would gain the most RPs possible with say a 40% increase as a bonus for each player added 5% is subtracted. Duo 35%, trio 30%, 4 man 25%, 5-20%, 6-15%, 7-10% and an 8man runs as RPs currently are. Biggest thing that other Freeshards and even live suffers from is that this is an aging game with a population that follows. Most of us have families and kids and can't dedicate hours to competitively 8man nightly and because of that ZERG warefare happens which is not a bad thing. But if you don't have time to 8man and there is no zerg at 10pm PST what do you do? There really is a community of people who LOVE to solo/small man or run minimal groups with close friends, give an incentive to do so. It's won't take away from anything and if anything will add to the RP pool that is out and about on a nightly basis. Go look through any freeshard forum and you will see the "I quit because I never RvRed due to lacking optimal classes" "We just sat around waiting for people to fill a group" etc.. RP bonus could be the kick in the pants that people need to attempt to RvR on their own terms....
Tue 17 Jul 2018 6:35 AM by aso
very good idea.

but solo / smallmans except stealthers and skald, will anyway not be part of the game cuz no horses
no horses = dead on sight

most of the time i will not have the time to wait for a full 8man, thats why i like solo / smallman
Tue 17 Jul 2018 9:58 AM by Bigga
Bumbles wrote:
Tue 17 Jul 2018 2:29 AM
So had a thought on how to promote people playing and RvRing without waiting around for a full optimal 8man setup and that is to give a RP bonus that's directly opposite the exp bonus you currently have set in game. It's simple a solo player who kills someone would gain the most RPs possible with say a 40% increase as a bonus for each player added 5% is subtracted. Duo 35%, trio 30%, 4 man 25%, 5-20%, 6-15%, 7-10% and an 8man runs as RPs currently are. Biggest thing that other Freeshards and even live suffers from is that this is an aging game with a population that follows. Most of us have families and kids and can't dedicate hours to competitively 8man nightly and because of that ZERG warefare happens which is not a bad thing. But if you don't have time to 8man and there is no zerg at 10pm PST what do you do? There really is a community of people who LOVE to solo/small man or run minimal groups with close friends, give an incentive to do so. It's won't take away from anything and if anything will add to the RP pool that is out and about on a nightly basis. Go look through any freeshard forum and you will see the "I quit because I never RvRed due to lacking optimal classes" "We just sat around waiting for people to fill a group" etc.. RP bonus could be the kick in the pants that people need to attempt to RvR on their own terms....

this is a AMAZING idea !! the best idea i hear for a long time! i agree.
Tue 17 Jul 2018 7:05 PM by Quik
Not sure I agree that a stealthier who happens to catch someone getting back to his/her group should get a 40% bonus.

The biggest problem I have with this will be stealthers camping leveling groups that are green and killing them for the nice bonus he would get. He SHOULD get his RP's but he should get a 40% RP bonus because he beat up a group of greens...
Tue 17 Jul 2018 7:15 PM by heardstheword
Quik wrote:
Tue 17 Jul 2018 7:05 PM
Not sure I agree that a stealthier who happens to catch someone getting back to his/her group should get a 40% bonus.

The biggest problem I have with this will be stealthers camping leveling groups that are green and killing them for the nice bonus he would get. He SHOULD get his RP's but he should get a 40% RP bonus because he beat up a group of greens...

lvl 35 is green to a 50 (I'm pretty sure). A group of 35's can definitely kill a lvl 50, depending how many of them there are. If anything, a full group of 35's are probably farming level 50 mobs or close to it.
Tue 17 Jul 2018 7:25 PM by Quik
I know an awful lot of 50 Stealthers that can wipe most green groups simply knowing which classes thye need to get first.

I'm not swaying a green group can't or won't beat them...I am saying lets not encourage camping of that sort and that is exactly what would happen. You will have multiple 50's going solo hanging around xping spots like 20x more often if they can get 40% more RP's out of it.

I want equal groups going at it, not camping the lowbies.
Tue 17 Jul 2018 7:35 PM by Bumbles
Quik wrote:
Tue 17 Jul 2018 7:25 PM
I know an awful lot of 50 Stealthers that can wipe most green groups simply knowing which classes thye need to get first.

I'm not swaying a green group can't or won't beat them...I am saying lets not encourage camping of that sort and that is exactly what would happen. You will have multiple 50's going solo hanging around xping spots like 20x more often if they can get 40% more RP's out of it.

I want equal groups going at it, not camping the lowbies.

This will happen with or without any Rp bonus. If that's an issue they can put a pre-req on the bonus where the target must be at least level 40 etc.
Tue 17 Jul 2018 7:40 PM by Quik
You can't tell me it wont happen a WHOLE lot more with this. Right now you see an occasional enemy come wipe a leveling group. A 40% xp bonus is going to HUGELY increase the desire for that easy RP.

Like I said, I have no issues with people killing green leveling groups, but camping is what this will encourage.
Tue 17 Jul 2018 8:53 PM by Budikah
Quik wrote:
Tue 17 Jul 2018 7:40 PM
You can't tell me it wont happen a WHOLE lot more with this. Right now you see an occasional enemy come wipe a leveling group. A 40% (RP) bonus is going to HUGELY increase the desire for that easy RP.

Like I said, I have no issues with people killing green leveling groups, but camping is what this will encourage.

To be fair, 1v8'ing a group of Green lvl'ers is already a pretty fun time for anybody looking for a half-arsed challenge and some RPs.

Part of making solo/small man a more viable way of play involves creating asymmetrical action around the world. A group of stealthers preying on a leveling group should be a beacon for somebody solo/small looking for a kill - they can head out and defend them and ambush the people who ambush them.

If anything, as Bumbles said, have the bonus only activate if you are killing an equal level opponent or higher.

8v8 is still going to net you the most RP's no matter what. Anything less ends up being the harder path (and solo/smalls know this and accept it) as you will not be able to kill everything you encounter, and overall fight lesser numbers in the first place. While the numbers might need to be tweaked as far as the bonus, I don't think the idea is that crazy.

This will also have a side effect of perhaps creating more equal action at lower population times. If you get a bonus for only having 4 people in a group versus 8, you might run 2x4 mans instead if you are looking for a bonus and don't want to smear smallmans with a full group.

Needs more input and consideration from all angles, but I'm all about ensuring that solo/small play doesn't get left in the dust more than it already is by sheer virtue of having less people, less fights, etc.
Tue 17 Jul 2018 10:19 PM by sebbo
Yeah, good idea! Will kick down every grey/green enemy i see, since im solo. Want dat bonus!
Wed 18 Jul 2018 3:20 AM by Bumbles
I think what everyone forgets who brought up camping Grey groups is that given time there will be little to no exp groups in the frontiers. You all have this idea in your heads due to the leveling frenzy that we are in the midst of. Given a little time when everyone has their RvR toons finding these grey/green expers to camp will come with consequences in the form of another realms stealthers who are also 50 coming to look for you. Other peoples death brings action.
Wed 18 Jul 2018 7:42 PM by Budikah
I think worrying about people punching down it sort of silly.

The entirety of DAoC is big fish > small fish outside of 8v8 - in which it tends to come down to a skill hierarchy instead as some groups clearly rise to the top and essentially farm the others.

Zergs > FG > Smallman > Duo > Solo with the obvious caveat of a good FG being able to compete with zergs.

Point being, a single stealther beating up lowbies isn't really much different than an full group plowing over a Smallman or something. It's an easy victory with easy RPs.

Outside of the punch down hierarchy, people ganking lowbies *should* ideally generate some potential RvR action as long as the lowbies can tell people who/where/what/how many. People will send a tell, and usually people head that way to kill the perps.

Mechanically, you can also diminish or remove the reward when fighting people outside of a certain level range to you. The intent obviously isnt to make cheesing lowbies the pinnacle of RP farming for solo/smallman.

For what it's worth - people who solo/small KNOW that they're going to end up progressing slower. They'd just appreciate anything to bolster the playstyle.

For RvR I see it as a triangle.

Zergs are needed for casual folks who aren't entirely competitive, don't want to be, are more social, and serve as a drop in/drop out source of action.

8s are obviously going to be more competitive, less open to lesser skilled players, or classes that don't fit the meta. To me, this is seemingly what most servers default to outside of zergs because people want to win, and many people obviously form up way ahead of time to have a reliable crew with set classes. While this is accessible, it's not nearly as much as zerging or solo/small. Without certain classes or setups, you can get utterly obliterated by a set group.

Solo/Duo/Small is much quicker to form, can be easier to drop in and out for shorter play sessions, and allows people who due to life, play times, etc to do something more competitive than zerging while not needing to sit around in a border keep waiting for the the missing class/last person.

To wrap up my spiel - 8v8 will be fine. They handle themselves. Zergs also tend to do what they do just fine - particularly with some of the RvR changes that will make life better for them. Solo/Small know they're starting out on a lower rung and they accept that - but anything to bridge the gap and get more people out in the frontiers who aren't a full group or a zerg is the healthiest thing for the server IMO.
Wed 18 Jul 2018 8:02 PM by aso
i realy dont understand why you guys start talking about grayganking or lowlevel killing.
you are worth anyway less, it happens that you get killed by lev 50 while you level.

most of the time you will fight lev 50 and i think the suggestion is a very good one, otherwise it makes no sense to play anything else then 8man, zerg or stealther here.
even with this rp bonus, it will be hardly possible for ppl with shorter play sessions to pvp if they dont play skald, minst, bard-bm, stealther
Thu 19 Jul 2018 9:15 AM by relvinian
I think the most important thing is an environment that promotes fun and fast pvp.

Is it fun, is it fast? Then we need fun and fast.

Go down the list:

1. Is getting rps for greys fun for the greys? Nope. Could they all log out? Happens all the time.
2. Is getting no rps when ur dead even if you almost killed someone or ur side wins? Nope. Could you log out ? Sure I would.
3. Choke points are bad. Can we modify the mile gates so there is more than one way past them?
4. Speed? 20 minute hasteners. porters.
Fri 20 Jul 2018 3:47 PM by Kralin
relvinian wrote:
Thu 19 Jul 2018 9:15 AM
I think the most important thing is an environment that promotes fun and fast pvp.

Is it fun, is it fast? Then we need fun and fast.

Go down the list:

1. Is getting rps for greys fun for the greys? Nope. Could they all log out? Happens all the time.
2. Is getting no rps when ur dead even if you almost killed someone or ur side wins? Nope. Could you log out ? Sure I would.
3. Choke points are bad. Can we modify the mile gates so there is more than one way past them?
4. Speed? 20 minute hasteners. porters.

Man, I think you are usually reasonable but you sometimes ask ridiculous things. Choke points are GOOD. Thats where the action happens. You don't want to modify mile gate gates or you will reduce action. There's a much bigger threat (to lower server populations) from people logging due to no-action than there is from a bunch of lower levels logging because they got ganked in an pvp zone.

Also I cannot recall a time my leveling group mates logged after being ganked in an pvp zone. We move to a different zone or ask our realm mates for help defending us while we xp. But we don't log because we're mad someone pvp killed us in a pvp zone. This is a pvp game and you want to encourage any and all pvp action when in the frontier zones.

Killing lower levels is fun sometimes and if they are xping in the pvp zone for the bigger bonuses, that's the risk they take. I doubt that they log after that "all the time".
Fri 20 Jul 2018 4:07 PM by heardstheword
relvinian wrote:
Thu 19 Jul 2018 9:15 AM
1. Is getting rps for greys fun for the greys? Nope. Could they all log out? Happens all the time.
2. Is getting no rps when ur dead even if you almost killed someone or ur side wins? Nope. Could you log out ? Sure I would.

These two are already fixed. Zero rp for greys and 100% rps when dead. I know it's been at least announced that it will happen, but it may not have been implemented yet.


relvinian wrote:
Thu 19 Jul 2018 9:15 AM
4. Speed? 20 minute hasteners.

I believe they are looking into this one, but the decision is still up in the air/unknown.
Fri 20 Jul 2018 9:31 PM by Ganaka
We don't need any bonus to allow people to get high RR fast. I would argue that it needs to be slowed down considerably, especially during the first few weeks after the server goes live.
Sat 21 Jul 2018 7:51 AM by Uthred
Im playing since Beta and in all those years there is one thing, that i never heard in my entire Daoc-Life. "We dont go out and kill enemies because the rps are too low" from a Duo/Smallmen.

You dont go out because there are no enemies.
You dont go out because there are too many enemies.
You dont go out because your wife doesnt let you go out.
You dont go out because there are only 8men.
You dont go out because you are LDing all the time.
You dont go out because you dont find any people to go out with.

But you never dont go out because you dont get "enough rps"/any incentives to go out as a Duo/Smallmen.
Sat 21 Jul 2018 8:24 AM by Numatic
Uthred wrote:
Sat 21 Jul 2018 7:51 AM
Im playing since Beta and in all those years there is one thing, that i never heard in my entire Daoc-Life. "We dont go our and kill enemies because the rps are too low" from a Duo/Smallmen.

You dont go out because there are no enemies.
You dont go out because there are too many enemies.
You dont go out because your wife doesnt let you go out.
You dont go out because there are only 8men.
You dont go out because you are LDing all the time.
You dont go out because you dont find any people to go out with.

But you never dont go out because you dont get "enough rps"/any incentives to go out as a Duo/Smallmen.

Exactly. Rps didn't ruin the solo/small man. Population and a shift into meta did. This happened for two reasons.

1. DaoC is highly based on a set of rules for maximum efficiency for winning fights. Going out and "winging it" usually ends in you being fodder. And let's face it. People don't like dying all the time. They want to win. So they join the meta.

2. Population and zone size. I have been saying it for years. Unless you have a 2000+ active playerbase at any given time, the RvR zones are too large for solo/small man. This is why the BG's were a huge success for such a long time. You could roam and pick your targets. Even non stealthers were constantly out and about solo.

I honestly think a little outside the box thinking is needed to fix that issue. For one, a solo player, besides stealthers, need some way to avoid being train rolled by 8mans or zergs. While this is a grouping game, many classes can do fine solo that aren't stealthers but they do not have the means to protect themselves from roaming groups. So they are forced to group. Saying "well then what's the point of grouping if we cant kill soloers" does not hold water because there are plenty of others grouping to offer a fair fight.

I believe a skill is needed, free to everyone except stealthers. It should have a long cooldown, and not useable while grouped or having been grouped for a set number time that allows them a chance to escape or something along those lines. Obviously things like abuse would need to be taken into account so that's why I'm being vague and not spouting anything specific.

Or you can make the RvR zone smaller. Something like 2 of the current zones put together, instead of giving four different zones for each realm.

Really though, what ever it may be, it's not a simple "I need more rps"for fixing solo/small man.
Sat 21 Jul 2018 9:47 AM by aso
very simple,

for solo smallmans:
to be ABLE to rvr here, you NEED speed5 or stealth, period.
this will result in very less potential enemys for this playstyle

this problem was solved by phoenix by:
closing their eyes

result:
no smallman-action
no solo-action

an other problem i see is the static rvr zones, they are extreme big.
there should be some kind of alternative, maybe a scaling rvr zone, depending on population?
Sat 21 Jul 2018 12:12 PM by Ganaka
Many of the big design decisions for DAOC cannot be undone. Letting people get high RR faster would only be a band-aid, and IMHO would have severe adverse side effects. How about asking these types of questions regarding speed and ask yourself if giving everyone speed is a good idea. Look 1-2 years into the future and ask the following questions:

1. Do we need more classes with caster speed? (Not referring to Bard speed.)
2. How effective will perma-sprint be on this server at high realm rank?
3. Will high RR people with perma-sprint even group with brand new RR1 people?
Sat 21 Jul 2018 6:33 PM by Isavyr
Classic DaoC doesn't have an eco-system that encourages small-man. Simply put, there aren't any regular niches that are best occupied by small groups, so it's little surprise they generally only form under desperation. It would be best if there was a system that perpetually created chances for evolution from small mans to larger groups, as well as keeping small groups continually relevant, such that the RvR system could always sustain life.

To encourage small man:
    Small groups will need an activity they can easily do.
  • Small groups will need relative safety from larger groups.

Currently, small groups cannot attack keep easily, nor can they attack relics. They are limited to ganking smaller groups than them, or XP groups.

-The first can be accomplished via RvR tasks.
-The second can perhaps be accomplished by designing tasks in several ways:
[1] Sharks vs. School-of-fish: By grouping the nature of tasks such that small man activity converges, they will be more resilient to 8-mans.
[2] Diffused presence: Small man task-groups would have a variety of possible tasks, each so different from the other that groups would be spread out. This makes it more difficult for 8-mans to be everywhere at once, or even easily conquer entire area. (Remember days of old when one 8-man would conquer entire Emain?--not healthy)

Anyway, just throwing out some ideas. They are rough drafts and would need to be more defined.


To give an example of possible tasks:

Since DAoC is based around keep warfare, my thinking is to expand on that theme through tasks. Since besieging keeps already works to cluster small groups, no change is needed here. However, a system could be built to expand the involvement in keeps. Instead of the slow payment of BP from one guild to upgrade everything about a keep, all parts could be divided into tasks. This naturally makes it most efficient to have many small groups working in concert to upgrade keeps.
  • Deliver supplies to upgrade lord (enough supplies would upgrade lord, instead of current system of bounty point payments, which requires no actionable involvement, and doesn't contribute to gameplay) If it's possible to have such people marked, it would give both stealthers and small-mans groups to attack in order to prevent a keep from becoming more powerful.
  • Deliver supplies to upgrade door
  • Deliver supplies to create patrol for keep (once dead--permanently dead).


Other tasks could be slightly modified from default game:

  • Kill guards (but reduce respawn? on guards so that it's actually significant--currently it's almost entirely insignificant as far as leading to taking of keep)
Sun 22 Jul 2018 11:59 PM by aso
i play only smallman and i dont want some tasks, pve doors, keeps or what ever

i want to fight enemys with similar numbers
i dont want to get killed by 8mans all the time
i dont want to roam for 1hour to find some fights
Mon 23 Jul 2018 2:55 AM by Isavyr
aso wrote:
Sun 22 Jul 2018 11:59 PM
i play only smallman and i dont want some tasks, pve doors, keeps or what ever

i want to fight enemys with similar numbers
i dont want to get killed by 8mans all the time
i dont want to roam for 1hour to find some fights

The tasks are a means to an end--creating opportunity for small skirmishes to happen regularly and skew gameplay away from 8-man dominance. You don't have to want to do any tasks to benefit from the system, as other small-groups will be motivated to, and that will present opportunities for you.
Mon 23 Jul 2018 6:53 AM by Ardri
Isavyr wrote:
Sat 21 Jul 2018 6:33 PM
Classic DaoC doesn't have an eco-system that encourages small-man. Simply put, there aren't any regular niches that are best occupied by small groups, so it's little surprise they generally only form under desperation. It would be best if there was a system that perpetually created chances for evolution from small mans to larger groups, as well as keeping small groups continually relevant, such that the RvR system could always sustain life.

To encourage small man:
    Small groups will need an activity they can easily do.
  • Small groups will need relative safety from larger groups.

Currently, small groups cannot attack keep easily, nor can they attack relics. They are limited to ganking smaller groups than them, or XP groups.

-The first can be accomplished via RvR tasks.
-The second can perhaps be accomplished by designing tasks in several ways:
[1] Sharks vs. School-of-fish: By grouping the nature of tasks such that small man activity converges, they will be more resilient to 8-mans.
[2] Diffused presence: Small man task-groups would have a variety of possible tasks, each so different from the other that groups would be spread out. This makes it more difficult for 8-mans to be everywhere at once, or even easily conquer entire area. (Remember days of old when one 8-man would conquer entire Emain?--not healthy)

Anyway, just throwing out some ideas. They are rough drafts and would need to be more defined.


To give an example of possible tasks:

Since DAoC is based around keep warfare, my thinking is to expand on that theme through tasks. Since besieging keeps already works to cluster small groups, no change is needed here. However, a system could be built to expand the involvement in keeps. Instead of the slow payment of BP from one guild to upgrade everything about a keep, all parts could be divided into tasks. This naturally makes it most efficient to have many small groups working in concert to upgrade keeps.
  • Deliver supplies to upgrade lord (enough supplies would upgrade lord, instead of current system of bounty point payments, which requires no actionable involvement, and doesn't contribute to gameplay) If it's possible to have such people marked, it would give both stealthers and small-mans groups to attack in order to prevent a keep from becoming more powerful.
  • Deliver supplies to upgrade door
  • Deliver supplies to create patrol for keep (once dead--permanently dead).


Other tasks could be slightly modified from default game:

  • Kill guards (but reduce respawn? on guards so that it's actually significant--currently it's almost entirely insignificant as far as leading to taking of keep)

What this guy said. 8mans can take keeps for RPs and strum up action but what do solo/small mans have? Stackable pots are good, instant port is good, 10min hastener speed is good - thank you for all of this! But i still think you need an activity that is beneficial for solo/small man groups while not nearly as beneficial for 8mans.

First thing that comes to mind is the Dopplegangers Event from live pre 2010. They were spread out and gave a set amount of RPs divided by the number of people in your group. TONS of small man groups were out doing that stuff because it simply wasn't as beneficial for 8mans.

The DAoC ecosystem needs to be healthy starting at the bottom (solos and smallmans). Keep the solo/small man action vibrant and that's what will keep your Phoenix server alive. People need to be able to log in, solo or scrap together 2-3 and still be able to RvR and have fun. But if people are essentially forced to only 8man (like what happened on Uthgard) then the server will quickly become an 8v8 arena after 3 months. And what do you do when you can't get in an 8man? You log off.
Mon 23 Jul 2018 7:08 AM by aso
Ardri wrote:
Mon 23 Jul 2018 6:53 AM
First thing that comes to mind is the Dopplegangers Event from live pre 2010. They were spread out and gave a set amount of RPs divided by the number of people in your group. TONS of small man groups were out doing that stuff because it simply wasn't as beneficial for 8mans.
i like the rubbles idea, at mazes because you can pick just one up, and it disapears, so if you are more ppl in grp, it takes ages until everyone got 25 rubbles for example, while its very easy to kill a doppelganger with 8ppl.

Ardri wrote:
Mon 23 Jul 2018 6:53 AM
The DAoC ecosystem needs to be healthy starting at the bottom (solos and smallmans). Keep the solo/small man action vibrant and that's what will keep your Phoenix server alive.
100% true, no smallman = no daoc

Ardri wrote:
Mon 23 Jul 2018 6:53 AM
People need to be able to log in, solo or scrap together 2-3 and still be able to RvR and have fun. But if people are essentially forced to only 8man (like what happened on Uthgard) then the server will quickly become an 8v8 arena after 3 months. And what do you do when you can't get in an 8man? You log off.
you even dont log off, because you didnt log in before
Mon 23 Jul 2018 7:52 AM by Laadna
Quik wrote:
Tue 17 Jul 2018 7:05 PM
Not sure I agree that a stealthier who happens to catch someone getting back to his/her group should get a 40% bonus.

The biggest problem I have with this will be stealthers camping leveling groups that are green and killing them for the nice bonus he would get. He SHOULD get his RP's but he should get a 40% RP bonus because he beat up a group of greens...
These bonuses should be only for non-stealther classes. Maybe also for non-speed 5 classes ? Because the idea is to encourage people to go on RvR with chances of getting ganked, and Bard/Skald* can already easily escape full groups and buses : they do not really need incentive to go solo.



(* : As minstrel is a stealther, i do not count it. Solo bard means high rank, but it is definitely possible)
Mon 23 Jul 2018 7:57 AM by hyshash
aso wrote:
Mon 23 Jul 2018 7:08 AM
Ardri wrote:
Mon 23 Jul 2018 6:53 AM
The DAoC ecosystem needs to be healthy starting at the bottom (solos and smallmans). Keep the solo/small man action vibrant and that's what will keep your Phoenix server alive.
100% true, no smallman = no daoc

There are only so many ppl who, even under perfect conditions, run in smallman/solo.
Daoc was never about that kind of playstile, it was just a sidegame (same about the 8vs8 scene).
To have a populated and healthy server you have to have zergs, everything else will evolve from these.

After all OF sucks for every kind of playstyle except zerging. NF maybe wasnt perfect but solos/small man had towers/bridges to fight and hide at while 8vs8 had agra or the highways to fight and circle the zergs. It was way better for alternative playstyles. And btw i think horses are a stupid idea since they mess with the meta makeing classes like a skald for grps obsolete and wont change that much for solos after all. At alltimes smallman/solos had to be way more hideous and run off the roads to avoid greater threats, thats something you have to live with when you choose not to run with a fg/zerg. In other words, you have to be better then your enemies and theres a reason why f.e. one of the best duos in alb wasn mins+x but cler/sorc.
Wed 25 Jul 2018 2:40 PM by Frigzy
Hey guys,

Some of you may know me under the name of Zarkor on the uth boards. I've written quite extensively on the matter of casual RvR incentivizing and of course have formed my own thoughts on the matter over the years.

This topic is -to me- the most important factor to make or break any classic DAoC server.



The core requirement for smallman RvR is a steady, sustainable and natural influx of non-optimized players into the RvR zones. They provide other non-optimized or non-grouped players with reliable access to relevant action.

In Classic times, this influx was driven by sheer enthousiasm and a broad lack of game knowledge. The majority of players simply did not know how to or feel the need to min-max their character, let alone their group setup. As a result, it created an almost idyllic target-rich environment.

In modern day DAoC, this target-rich environment can not be created using the same causes. People know the game and will naturally stall their participation in favor of optimizing their character/gear/setup/numbers.

This creates a spiral of competition which causes people to virutally only venture out when they are above a certain optimization threshold. What's worse, we can see that this threshold only increases over time as the server ages and more and more players and groups become established and increasingly optimized.

This process of drying out the landscape for beginners and non-optimized players and playstyles is what gradually killed other classic servers before.



So the question is: how to create a steady, sustainable and natural influx of non-optimized playersin modern day DAoC?

The key to do this is to create systems which work with the natural inclination of players to seek out the most effecient way of character progression.

In other words, you need to create a game setting in which non-optimized players will choose to venture out in the RvR zones despite their full knowledge of the risks and odds involved. It must be worth their time and effort to choose the frontiers over any other zone or activity because the net reward for such a choice ends up being the highest of all the options.

Of course, RvR is not a fully controlled environment and the risk of being devoured by stronger, more optimized opponents will always remain. This is why the benefits should be so significant that even the possibility of a powerless death should not affect the overall willingness of the sub-optimized players to take their chances. Also, the time-to-action should be a serious factor to consider in any solution. This also has a big effect on the severity of death in RvR.

So, the benefit of this choice must be quite distinct in order to garner enough interest overall. Once a critical mass of sub-optimized players are naturally and sustainably active in the RvR zones, the action itself becomes an additional incentive, further stimulating activity.




Let's look at some options:

The simplest way to come to actual ideas is to look at the targeted players and their needs. There are two main categories of non-optimized players.

1)Players under 50: What do they need to progress?

XP, gold, gear, fun and RPs.

Clearly the easiest group to incentivize RvR participation for would be the players under 50. If you can give them very significant benefits in terms of XP, gold and gear compared to the non-RvR options, you can attract a large group of players that are relatively weak but can be convinced by the fact that their reward is potentially huge. It's important to note that if you make things easy even outside of the RvR zone, people will simply ignore this benefit and grind in safety as they are naturally inclined to do in the first place. The difference in benefits must be significant enough!


2) Solo (or smallman) level 50s: What do they need to progress?

Fun, RPs and potentially gold.

The solo or smallman level 50 players themselves are harder to convince of the benefits of going out in a non-optimized setup. Their progression options are limited and they are mainly concerned with being able to enjoy their playstyle rather than flat bonuses or guard tasks. If they can not find relevant opponents, the fun ends, regardless of how many RPs they can get through other means.

Concretely, you could come up with tasks that encourage RvR that naturally flows from smallman RvR that is generated through non-50 RvR participation. For instance, guarding or overtaking certain XP spots for your non-50 allies by killing invaders could grant you certain rewards. Stopping the enemy forces near their portal keep could grant you extra RPs if you are a level 50 solo or duo.

The rewards could be aimed at improving the quality of life of a solo or smallman player.

For instance you could create some sort of refillable potion that grants you hastener speed (or slightly less to prevent balance impact) for a short while. Usable only out of combat. The item can be stacked indefinitely (no cap) and can be stacked through killing enemy players in solo or duo as level 50, or killing enemy players if you are not level 50 yet. Additionally, it can be stacked by killing level 50 or higher mobs in the frontiers. Again, only dropping if you are solo or smallman as 50 or any time if you are lower.

Additionally, killing level 50 or higher frontier mobs as solo or duo could grant a very significant return in gold per kill. This could count for non-50s too.

Another example could be that your charge items gain a stack if you make a solo or duo kill.


With small measures such as these, the playstyle of mixing PvE and RvR on a smallman scale could be vastly improved. Even if you are waiting on enemies you can opt to gain some minor but significant character progression in the mean time. Of course this will put you at a disadvantage if you encounter enemies during your fight.





The examples I give above are just that, examples. What's most important is the way this problem is approached. If the real causes are not sufficiently handled, the solution will not be sustainable. I hope I've at least contributed some insight into the problem with this post.

Overall, creating an enticing RvR ecosystem for non-optimized players will create the base of the pyramid for all other forms of RvR. It's importance can not be understated.
Thu 26 Jul 2018 7:52 AM by aso
you guys make a science of it, its very simple,

no speed5 horses = no smallman
with no smallman i mean VERYY VERY VERYY less smallman action then it could be.

smallmans depends on each other, if there are less smallmans to fight, there will be less smallmans loging in means less smallmans to fight....
Thu 26 Jul 2018 7:55 AM by Ceen
aso wrote:
Thu 26 Jul 2018 7:52 AM
you guys make a science of it, its very simple,

no speed5 horses = no smallman
with no smallman i mean VERYY VERY VERYY less smallman action then it could be.

smallmans depends on each other, if there are less smallmans to fight, they will be less smallmans loging in means less smallmans to fight....

Go play live pls
Thu 26 Jul 2018 10:18 AM by Jardar
Ceen wrote:
Thu 26 Jul 2018 7:55 AM
aso wrote:
Thu 26 Jul 2018 7:52 AM
you guys make a science of it, its very simple,

no speed5 horses = no smallman
with no smallman i mean VERYY VERY VERYY less smallman action then it could be.

smallmans depends on each other, if there are less smallmans to fight, they will be less smallmans loging in means less smallmans to fight....

Go play live pls


Let's try to stay away from baiting/trolling in this thread please. Keep it constructive or stay out of the conversation.
Thu 26 Jul 2018 10:22 AM by Patron
No horses in rvr PLZ, but can we get saddlebags so so we can build rams out of bags without to sit on horse.

Skald bard or minst are formidable classes for smallmen
Thu 26 Jul 2018 12:12 PM by heardstheword
I'm fine with horses in RvR as long as they are not speed 5.

We don't want to remove the necessity for Skalds/Minst (bard would be fine since they CC/heal/buff)
Thu 26 Jul 2018 8:12 PM by aso
everyone say no horses, but dont tell a reason why

only reason someone gets mad about horses:

he chases solo/smallmans and cant catch them, they add then in their 8vs8
ppl who play only 8man

but it doesnt mater, it will end up like always, 8vs8, zerg, stealthers. very few duos with speedclasses
Fri 27 Jul 2018 7:25 AM by Frigzy
Speed is a hugely important factor for smallman and especially solo RvR. You need to be able to get to the action within a reasonable time frame.

The problem with horses is that they have an impact on the (solo) caster vs tank balance. Kiting and positioning becomes a lot harder and distance covered prefight is a lot larger. Especially being able to recast them will make them an inescapable part of smallman battles and 1v1s. Also, since they are as reliable as casted speed, those classes lose their relative advantage.

An ideal solution would offer ways for non-speed classes to get to the action at a decent pace without significantly impacting the natural advantage speedclasses have nor the caster/archer vs melee balance.

Hastener speed is a good option because it's not easily recastable. However, this is also a drawback. Every friendly (portal) keep should have one at least.


A solution could be to implement the ability to cast a speed buff (horse or hastener) which is restricted by certain conditions. I was thinking about a 'contested' zone system:

A zone becomes contested once an enemy level 50 players enters a frontierzone. A notification that zone xxxxxx is now contested by a solo/small group/large group of enemy players is spread to all the players in the frontiers once a contested status changes.

Once a zone is contested, you can no longer cast your personal speed (horse or pocket hastener). All previous speed buffs remain. Speedclasses obviously can still use their speed at will. This allows non speedclasses to recast their speed before entering the zone in order to be able to find opponents, without it having too big of an impact on the battle itself. If there are friendly keeps within the zone, players can still use those hasteners.

Ideally, you would be able to see this zone marked as contested on the map (perhaps different colors representing the size of the enemy force). This would further help smallman players find appropriate action.

The marking of the zone is determined by the largest group of enemy players. If a solo and a trio enter a zone, this zone will become contested by a small group. If 5 solo's enter a zone, it remains contested by solo enemy players. 5 grouped players or more are a large group. Non-50 players can not contest zones. If your group has one 50 and some lowbies, it will contest the zone for the according group size.

Overall, this helps all playstyles find action while relieving a large part of the non speedclasses' struggle to get around. Speed is guaranteed when there is a clear need to cover ground, but restricted when action is nearby.

Obviously, this could potentially cause some impact on ninja keep takes and the likes and the effect on the keep war playstyle has to be evaluated. A simple solution would be to only use the contested system to mark zones that are invaded by solos and small groups.


The speed question is not purely a matter of getting around. There's little point going faster if you don't know where to look. This system could address both problems. It could even be used in BGs.
Fri 27 Jul 2018 6:30 PM by Quik
No horses. Get a hastener buff.

I HATE stealthing classes but I feel they should be a danger for anyone travelling alone or in a small group and no one should be able to avoid most stealthers by having a horse.

No horses unless PvE only and even then I prefer not.
Fri 27 Jul 2018 7:11 PM by aso
you can put in 10 sec casttime for speed5 horse, i rly dont know where the problem is.
except 8mans who cant catch and outnumber you...
better there is someone on horse in rvr who i cant catch, then someone who dont go rvr because he knows that he will die on sight without speed.
Fri 27 Jul 2018 10:05 PM by Ceen
Yeah having the whole server on warp speed is whats missing
Fri 27 Jul 2018 10:08 PM by Quik
Kam123 wrote:
Fri 27 Jul 2018 9:35 PM
Quik wrote:
Fri 27 Jul 2018 6:30 PM
No horses. Get a hastener buff.

I HATE stealthing classes but I feel they should be a danger for anyone travelling alone or in a small group and no one should be able to avoid most stealthers by having a horse.

No horses unless PvE only and even then I prefer not.

Steathers arent gonna have any problems if people are moving faster... Its not like the live stealth pop died off. i played my SB i never had any prob PAing people traveling with speed, horse or not. It's nothing new for stealthers, and traveling solo is still equally dangerous

For me it was the opposite. When I was on a horse I rarely got ganked and could get to wherever I was going without issues.

When I was walking I had to be much more careful.

For me it is the same exact reasoning as no buffbots. The main reason I hate buffbots is that you are taking someones job away, even if it is just an augshaman. With buffbots you don't need augshaman nearly as much. With horses you are again basically taking someones job away. If you want speed then get a speed class. Small man or solo doesn't matter for me. If you want to solo then you lose a key grouping component. If you want smallman then you had better get a speed class if you want speed, or a buffing class if you want buff.

My vote stays the same:

No horses in RvR and would prefer no horses in PvE but not nearly as big of a deal.
Sat 28 Jul 2018 12:31 AM by Isavyr
Frigzy wrote:
Wed 25 Jul 2018 2:40 PM
So the question is: how to create a steady, sustainable and natural influx of non-optimized playersin modern day DAoC?

The key to do this is to create systems which work with the natural inclination of players to seek out the most effecient way of character progression. In other words, you need to create a game setting in which non-optimized players will choose to venture out in the RvR zones despite their full knowledge of the risks and odds involved. It must be worth their time and effort to choose the frontiers over any other zone or activity because the net reward for such a choice ends up being the highest of all the options.

Let's look at some options:
1)Players under 50: What do they need to progress?
XP, gold, gear, fun and RPs.
2) Solo (or smallman) level 50s: What do they need to progress?
Fun, RPs and potentially gold.

... If they can not find relevant opponents, the fun ends, regardless of how many RPs...

Hi Frigszy,
Thanks for adding to the discussion! I agree with a lot of the material you posted. I also like your idea about enemies dropping useful things.

However, it felt like you didn't agree with your own solutions. More gold, XP, and RP isn't going to provide incentive to groups if they continually lose. Good rewards already exist, but they're nearly impossible for small groups (and even many 8-mans) to obtain, so these players become discouraged and participate less.

Therefore I think whatever system is created doesn't need better rewards per se, just a significantly higher chance of getting those rewards. This is why I advocated the task system being greatly expanded.

This server could greatly increase the success of small groups, regularly, by implementing small tasks that these groups can accomplish, and in some cases, most efficiently.

The ideas I posted earlier are, in my mind, just the beginning. I'd love to see stealther-specific tasks and/or scripting that allows them to survey territory in order to provide their realm with an enemy headcount. Possibly more involvement based about mile-gates and other non-keep features. I think diversity will be key in both bringing more players out by creating multiple niches, and spreading them out so that one group cannot dominate all the action.
Sat 28 Jul 2018 2:37 AM by Bumbles
Wow 5 pages now, impressive. Good to read the ideas that are flowing, and good to see that the staff is at least for now giving some of the idea a go with the rp bonuses.
Sat 28 Jul 2018 4:09 AM by Rabbitstew
Everyone needs to remember that having speed5/6 horses will change the dynamic of melee vs ranged.

Example One: Player 1 (Tank) and Player 2 (Caster) see each other across the field, at clipping range. Player 1 charges forward, covering a massive distance between the two. Player 2 casts their CC at the incoming enemy, and their spell lands with the target just a few hundred units away.
[[ RESULT: Player 1 closed the gap considerably more than before, forcing Player 2 to compensate. Disadvantage: Player 2 ]]

Example Two: Player 1 (Tank) and Player 2 (Caster) see each other but have a structure (bridge, wall, gate, etc.) separating them. Player 2 must play incredibly defensive, as they know that Player 1 can round a corner near-instantly to force a melee. Even a 500-800 unit distance can quickly become nothing if Player 2 blinks for too long or is otherwise distracted.
[[ RESULT: Player 2 must play more defensive and have good reaction speed to avoid a possible insta-melee with Player 1. Disadvantage: Player 2 ]]

Conclusion: Horses give an Advantage (buff) to melee/tanks and Disadvantage (nerf) to ranged/casters.

IMHO, these are not edge case scenarios and can happen regularly for small-man action. I'm neither anti nor pro horse at this point, but we cannot be ignorant to the balancing effects they can have on the game.
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