Since Your Balancing Friars Both Ways Do it To Wardens Aswell

Friars have always been strong in melee but were lacking group healing and viability so your helping them become better at it.

You should do the same for Wardens as they have the opposite problem. While groups love healer wardens, melee wardens are not accepted and while wardens can partake in melee it is very difficult for them to compete at this patch level. I DONT think they need the shield spec and point increase like they got later on, I think all they need is their damage table increased.
On top of the damage increase giving them access to Celtic Spear or large Weapon so they can be more in line with a Friar in melee would be interesting as well. But atleast a damage increase none the less.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:23 PM by Yokahu

Sounds fun, sign me up for a Celtic Spear PBT Warden

Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:47 PM by Ceen

Troll account?

Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:38 PM by Magesty

Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:47 PM
Troll account?

Sure seems that way.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:41 PM by Pirhana7

First of all what is a "troll" account?, this is my username and is the same as my characters....

Please tell me how Wardens don't need a little help in melee at this patch? and how is asking for 2hand option too much?, it would be far easier and less powering than the shield spec and extra points everyone else is asking for..... which they did get later on.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:46 PM by Pirhana7

Magesty wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:38 PM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:47 PM
Troll account?

Sure seems that way.

Really? why? That makes no sense
What would the purpose of a troll account even be here? No one cares who you are here or even knows you. Why would anyone need to hide their suggestions?

and how is putting a Warden on Par with a Friar in melee too much or something that would require a "troll" account to suggest?

Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:54 PM by Pirhana7

Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:47 PM
Troll account?

Please explain ?

Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:53 PM by Bradekes

This only makes sense as the reasoning of balancing friars was to allow them better group options.. The melee on wardens needs buffed to be just as effective as staves that's really not asking much.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:05 AM by easytoremember

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:53 PM
This only makes sense as the reasoning of balancing friars was to allow them better group options.. The melee on wardens needs buffed to be just as effective as staves that's really not asking much.

The thing is a bit larger than the Friar class buddy; Albion Cold/Heat/Matter resists are provided by Friar
Friar is(was?) so unwanted that this realm happilly runs around without them

Warden has PBT and slam with light healing
Valewalker is more deserving of a buff or rework than the Warden

Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:10 AM by Bradekes

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:05 AM
The thing is a bit larger than the Friar class buddy; Albion Cold/Heat/Matter resists are provided by Friar
Friar is(was?) so unwanted that this realm happilly runs around without them

Warden has PBT and slam with light healing
Valewalker is more deserving of a buff or rework than the Warden

I am not saying that it was not bigger than Friar vs Warden, but I also do not see the reasoning that Warden melee shouldn't get a buff, even tho no warden should spec melee realistically, as they balanced Friars group utility and mentioned they did it to balance it with Warden utility.. Now friar has melee option and group utility option.. I honestly don't play a warden and won't even if they buff them, but I do think some people would enjoy a more melee oriented warden and it should be just as viable as melee friar is, do you not agree? as this doesn't really change realm balance as it doesn't affect much on a grand scale but will make some people happy.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:19 AM by teiloh

Wardens have PBT, Damage Chant and Speed. Their enhance line is flat-out superior to a Friar's and that gives them a lift in all areas of play.

Staff and Rejuv are almost mutually exclusive.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:11 AM by Fk_

Only if they can dual wield those then.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:28 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:19 AM
Wardens have PBT, Damage Chant and Speed. Their enhance line is flat-out superior to a Friar's and that gives them a lift in all areas of play.

Staff and Rejuv are almost mutually exclusive.

Just putting warden on the same damage table with only 1h would be nice.. Doesn't need to be drastic remember friar is on 2.1 factor damage table here warden is on measly 1.8, this also affects defensive penetration which warden only having 1h has no defense penetration so the extra weapon skill would be helpful.

As 2h actually grants 25 or 50% parry reduction to the enemy. Not sure if they lowered values here like DW .

It also makes a big difference with warden not having any base defense like friar getting evade 5 for free which is like training 50 in parry... PBT is great for a group but single utility it can be pretty weak if the enemy has high attack speed. It also costs mana...

Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:04 PM by PingGuy

I don't think it's a good idea to start balancing similar classes in different realms just because one class got adjusted. Let them adjust the Friar and get it dialed in where they want it, then move to the next class. If Wardens make the list, great, if not, then they are probably fine.

As far as the Warden itself, I play with 39 Slash, so a melee buff would be nice. However, I don't think it would matter that much. I don't want them to make adjustments without a specific goal and some careful consideration. Anyway, I think archers should probably be the next ones to get adjusted, and then whichever classes are underutilized.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:12 PM by Bradekes

PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:04 PM
As far as the Warden itself, I play with 39 Slash, so a melee buff would be nice. However, I don't think it would matter that much. I don't want them to make adjustments without a specific goal and some careful consideration. Anyway, I think archers should probably be the next ones to get adjusted, and then whichever classes are underutilized.

I think a small petition to put warden on same damage table and keep everything else the same. Friar will still have 2h damage bonus 10% and 50% parry penetration still giving friar the edge but help put wardens on par..

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:21 PM by PingGuy

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:12 PM
I think a small petition to put warden on same damage table and keep everything else the same. Friar will still have 2h damage bonus 10% and 50% parry penetration still giving friar the edge but help put wardens on par..

I think an argument could be made that PBT already puts Wardens on par, or above Friars, both in class ability and group importance. I mean, I'd love a upgrade to the damage table, I'm just not sure it's needed. And even if it is, it's definitely not a top priority at the moment.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:33 PM by Bradekes

PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:21 PM
I think an argument could be made that PBT already puts Wardens on par, or above Friars, both in class ability and group importance. I mean, I'd love a upgrade to the damage table, I'm just not sure it's needed. And even if it is, it's definitely not a top priority at the moment.

Well could you explain how? As a class ability it blocks 1 melee attack every 6 seconds 1vs1 this is similar to friar evade of about 25% if the target is using 1.5 speed weapon.

Friar are on 2.1 weapon table warden are on 1.8. This means a friar will have 16% more weaponskill and damage. Friar also get dex/quick buff giving them even more damage and WS over warden..

I'm not saying it's very important but it would be an easy adjustment and easy to revert if they just tested warden on 2.1 table.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:47 PM by PingGuy

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:33 PM
Well could you explain how? As a class ability it blocks 1 melee attack every 6 seconds 1vs1 this is similar to friar evade of about 25% if the target is using 1.5 speed weapon.

Friar are on 2.1 weapon table warden are on 1.8. This means a friar will have 16% more weaponskill and damage. Friar also get dex/quick buff giving them even more damage and WS over warden..

I'm not saying it's very important but it would be an easy adjustment and easy to revert if they just tested warden on 2.1 table.

PBT works from any angle, Evade does not. Slash Wardens have an anytime style that can slow the attackers melee enough that they can't get through the pulses (obviously most useful for solo fights though). For group purposes, no real argument needs to be made, groups want PBT. For all other purposes it depends on the situation. PBT (on myself) saves me from Archer surprises, which as been nice. Plus, Wardens have spec Parry and a Shield in addition to PBT.

EDIT: I said Wardens have evade but I was probably thinking of Blademaster. So removed that point.

I don't think it's simple or clear cut, these are complex classes with different abilities. It's not going to be easy to quantify and rate their equivalence. Much of what makes them good or bad can be situational, and people play differently so situational distribution will vary.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:49 PM by Bradekes

PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:47 PM
Plus, Wardens have Evade 3 and spec Parry in addition to PBT.

You say you have a 50 warden.. But warden don't even get evade 1....

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:50 PM by PingGuy

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:49 PM
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:47 PM
Plus, Wardens have Evade 3 and spec Parry in addition to PBT.

You say you have a 50 warden.. But warden don't even get evade 1....

Yeah, I edited it, but not fast enough. My first character here was a Blademaster and I got them mixed up for a second.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:52 PM by Billiken

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:05 AM
Warden has PBT and slam with light healing

Warden does not have Slam -- no Shield spec.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:53 PM by Bradekes

PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:50 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:49 PM
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:47 PM
Plus, Wardens have Evade 3 and spec Parry in addition to PBT.

You say you have a 50 warden.. But warden don't even get evade 1....

Yeah, I edited it, but not fast enough. My first character here was a Blademaster and I got them mixed up for a second.

Fair enough.. If warden got evade 3 I'd be on the same page with you.. Warden damage vs friar just has too much of a gap that's the only issue I see otherwise they seem to be pretty balanced now

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:57 PM by PingGuy

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:53 PM
Fair enough.. If warden got evade 3 I'd be on the same page with you.. Warden damage vs friar just has too much of a gap that's the only issue I see otherwise they seem to be pretty balanced now

Should the Warden and Friar have equivalent damage? I think it's a fair question. As I said, there are many factors here, and they don't have perfectly equivalent or opposing abilities. Why should their damage be similar? DAoC balancing isn't done symmetrically, which means it's harder to quantify, and can be quite subjective.

I wouldn't oppose a damage increase for the Warden, but I'm not calling for one either. I don't think they need Evade 3 though, that would be too much when added on with Block, Parry, and PBT.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:06 PM by Bradekes

PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:57 PM
Should the Warden and Friar have equivalent damage? I think it's a fair question. As I said, there are many factors here, and they don't have perfectly equivalent or opposing abilities. Why should their damage be similar? DAoC balancing isn't done symmetrically, which means it's harder to quantify, and can be quite subjective.

I wouldn't oppose a damage increase for the Warden, but I'm not calling for one either. I don't think they need Evade 3 though, that would be too much when added on with Block, Parry, and PBT.

Wardens being on the same damage table would still be missing 10% damage bonus that friar gets and the parry defensive penetration from 2h so friar would still be outputting more dps. Friars taunt also gives them higher growth rates for an anytime style and no defensive penalty. They(friar) also get a backsnare vs a sidesnare.

Even 1.9 or 2.0 table would greatly improve wardens melee ability.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:10 PM by PingGuy

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:06 PM
Wardens being on the same damage table would still be missing 10% damage bonus that friar gets and the parry defensive penetration from 2h so friar would still be outputting more dps. Friars taunt also gives them higher growth rates for an anytime style and no defensive penalty. They(friar) also get a backsnare vs a sidesnare.

Even 1.9 or 2.0 table would greatly improve wardens melee ability.

I can't disagree with anything you said there, but I don't know that we'll ever be able to clearly define whether or not it's necessary for these two classes to have comparable damage output.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:19 PM by Bradekes

PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:10 PM
I can't disagree with anything you said there, but I don't know that we'll ever be able to clearly define whether or not it's necessary for these two classes to have comparable damage output.

Well... I'd say the same but I cannot justify why friars should be more effective than a warden in melee... If someone can answer that I'd be less likely to advise giving a bit of love to warden..

Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:43 PM by jg777

To me a Warden is set up as a defensive support role, with the ability to heal and buff. I’d favor giving Wardens greater defensive ability, possibly even spec shield, before looking to give them more damage output. Specifically shield spec would go well in hand with supporting their backlines, peeling, guard, along with their own defensiveness/survivability. Would that be to much? Possibly, but it certainly goes more with their role in mind to me.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:21 PM by Lollie

jg777 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:43 PM
To me a Warden is set up as a defensive support role, with the ability to heal and buff. I’d favor giving Wardens greater defensive ability, possibly even spec shield, before looking to give them more damage output. Specifically shield spec would go well in hand with supporting their backlines, peeling, guard, along with their own defensiveness/survivability. Would that be to much? Possibly, but it certainly goes more with their role in mind to me.

The main problem I see with giving wardens slam would in effect eliminate the need for a hero to peel, thus reducing their chances even more of finding a group.

I love my warden and for this patch level and with out ToA and the likes are fine, but if I did have one wish it would be a slight bump on the damage table.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:45 PM by jg777

Lollie wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:21 PM
jg777 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:43 PM
To me a Warden is set up as a defensive support role, with the ability to heal and buff. I’d favor giving Wardens greater defensive ability, possibly even spec shield, before looking to give them more damage output. Specifically shield spec would go well in hand with supporting their backlines, peeling, guard, along with their own defensiveness/survivability. Would that be to much? Possibly, but it certainly goes more with their role in mind to me.

The main problem I see with giving wardens slam would in effect eliminate the need for a hero to peel, thus reducing their chances even more of finding a group.

I love my warden and for this patch level and with out ToA and the likes are fine, but if I did have one wish it would be a slight bump on the damage table.

Hero’s can also do significant damage too however, but I understand your point. Perhaps one way to reduce that blowback would be to take away the slam style and just keep the other shield styles in for the Warden?

Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:46 PM by Bradekes

jg777 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:43 PM
To me a Warden is set up as a defensive support role, with the ability to heal and buff. I’d favor giving Wardens greater defensive ability, possibly even spec shield, before looking to give them more damage output. Specifically shield spec would go well in hand with supporting their backlines, peeling, guard, along with their own defensiveness/survivability. Would that be to much? Possibly, but it certainly goes more with their role in mind to me.

Giving Warden a defensive buff like shields raises their utility even more which friars will complain about, understanably. But no one can complain about warden being more offensive with a leg to stand on..

Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:54 PM by Riac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:46 PM
jg777 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:43 PM
To me a Warden is set up as a defensive support role, with the ability to heal and buff. I’d favor giving Wardens greater defensive ability, possibly even spec shield, before looking to give them more damage output. Specifically shield spec would go well in hand with supporting their backlines, peeling, guard, along with their own defensiveness/survivability. Would that be to much? Possibly, but it certainly goes more with their role in mind to me.

Giving Warden a defensive buff like shields raises their utility even more which friars will complain about, understanably. But no one can complain about warden being more offensive with a leg to stand on..

there is no proof wardens need buffs.... see how easy that was to do bradekes?

Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:18 PM by jg777

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:46 PM
jg777 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:43 PM
To me a Warden is set up as a defensive support role, with the ability to heal and buff. I’d favor giving Wardens greater defensive ability, possibly even spec shield, before looking to give them more damage output. Specifically shield spec would go well in hand with supporting their backlines, peeling, guard, along with their own defensiveness/survivability. Would that be to much? Possibly, but it certainly goes more with their role in mind to me.

Giving Warden a defensive buff like shields raises their utility even more which friars will complain about, understanably. But no one can complain about warden being more offensive with a leg to stand on..

Friars don’t need to complain about the utility of another realms class since they aren’t competing for a group slot with them. The goal needs to be focused on providing classes with the means to obtain a group slot by bringing something, preferably some things, to benefit the group.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:37 PM by Bradekes

jg777 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:18 PM
Friars don’t need to complain about the utility of another realms class since they aren’t competing for a group slot with them. The goal needs to be focused on providing classes with the means to obtain a group slot by bringing something, preferably some things, to benefit the group.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say exactly.. The whole reason friars just received buffs was to give them similar utility as warden as stated in thread from Dev..

Friars already received melee damage and style tweaks to enhance their melee, it's not crazy for warden to ask for small tweak to increase their melee, not to increase the chance of them getting a group, but so warden is balanced to a similar role available to another realm.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:20 PM by Mauriac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:37 PM
jg777 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:18 PM
Friars don’t need to complain about the utility of another realms class since they aren’t competing for a group slot with them. The goal needs to be focused on providing classes with the means to obtain a group slot by bringing something, preferably some things, to benefit the group.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say exactly.. The whole reason friars just received buffs was to give them similar utility as warden as stated in thread from Dev..

Friars already received melee damage and style tweaks to enhance their melee, it's not crazy for warden to ask for small tweak to increase their melee, not to increase the chance of them getting a group, but so warden is balanced to a similar role available to another realm.

i dunno i never see wardens.......

Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:42 PM by Milchschnidde

The Warden simply just does need 0.5 more skillpoint increase, in the current gameplay the warden can only choose between support - support healer (single spec and cure spells) or support -support dmg (join the assist train), "buffline is meta - resis and bladeturn/dmg add." Any support-heal bard is better at healing -spec party heal cure and demezz and any other melee is better at dealing dmg. The only reason a warden is taken to the grp are resistence buffs, bubble and thornweed field. He has a damn high mana consumption, his auto-bladeturn drains his mana empty, he drops 2-3 heals and he runs oom - that is another issue.

-give him the ability to intercept atacks - so he can play a more protective role for caster and other supporters,
-increase his skill points to a 2.0 multiplier.
-reduce the mana consumption of Bladeturn chant - not having pom or serenity doesnt cause him to run oom, so he doesent need to skill serenity too keep the mana drain at least even.
-add a dmg add that is castable similar to the castable Bladeturn and that stacks up with the dmg add chant so for example a 5.0 + 7,5 chant dmg add. (so he would automatic increase his dmg by switching to the dmg add or leave the 5.0 dmg add alone - still would give him a small dmg increase ) - still in the supporter table in terms of weaponskill and chance to hit..
-dont need to give him shild spec, simply allow him to use a large shild and to block for an ally (Guard 1-2), so his support role would be strenghten by not giving him a to mighty skill (slam and increased block chance by default, just give him the option to skill mastery of block).

-grant him access to a 30-50% instant rezz when skilling 40+ into regrowth (battle rezz but with usual sick).

Just my thoughts about some warden optimizations. He doenst need many tweaks but his role fits in between the albion paladin and the friars. There should be a good reason to take a warden into group - in his current stateHe is not a good healer, not a good fighter, he is not a good dmg dealer. He is a bad Jack of all trades reduced to 2-3 ability's - which are just "nice to have" nothing more in my opinion.

Just in case a dev reads this post - I would add the intercept to a requirement of having 5 in parrry, guard 1 at 10 parry and guard 2 at 15 parry.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 12:35 AM by jg777

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:37 PM
jg777 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:18 PM
Friars don’t need to complain about the utility of another realms class since they aren’t competing for a group slot with them. The goal needs to be focused on providing classes with the means to obtain a group slot by bringing something, preferably some things, to benefit the group.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say exactly.. The whole reason friars just received buffs was to give them similar utility as warden as stated in thread from Dev..

Friars already received melee damage and style tweaks to enhance their melee, it's not crazy for warden to ask for small tweak to increase their melee, not to increase the chance of them getting a group, but so warden is balanced to a similar role available to another realm.

I’m only interested in discussing classes as they pertrain to grouping. If that’s not what you’re advocating for, that’s fine, but then we don’t have anything to talk about as your talking in general of the class and I’m talking specifically towards group viability. Phoenix staff also said they weren’t going to try to make a Friar replace a melee slot in the group so the boosts are more appropriately tailored to their group enhancement benefits. I’d argue the damage table buff initially given them compensates for the lack of their main stat not raising as its primary like it should be, which would increase the staff damage naturally. Wardens have been and will inherently be more defensive and giving them a minor boost to damage won’t change their role or make groups grab them more often- just like Friar’s increased damage hasn’t gotten them more groups. Boosts should be targeted to what the class actually needs/could benefit from and offer a group in my view.

We don’t need to be concerned what the Jone’s have that we don’t if we have what we need to be successful and a fun class to play.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:47 AM by Bradekes

jg777 wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 12:35 AM
I’m only interested in discussing classes as they pertrain to grouping. If that’s not what you’re advocating for, that’s fine, but then we don’t have anything to talk about as your talking in general of the class and I’m talking specifically towards group viability.

Okay then.. Good day I guess? Nice chat..

Atleast DAoC has the illusion of spec choices, let's just keep that an illusion is your mindset I guess... Missionary it is then.. Only fun for so long, guess I like variety..

Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:12 AM by jg777

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:47 AM
jg777 wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 12:35 AM
I’m only interested in discussing classes as they pertrain to grouping. If that’s not what you’re advocating for, that’s fine, but then we don’t have anything to talk about as your talking in general of the class and I’m talking specifically towards group viability.

Okay then.. Good day I guess? Nice chat..

Atleast DAoC has the illusion of spec choices, let's just keep that an illusion is your mindset I guess... Missionary it is then.. Only fun for so long, guess I like variety..

Adding shield spec line adds variety, however, whilst a minor damage increase I'd argue would hardly do that.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 3:14 AM by Bradekes

jg777 wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:12 AM
Adding shield spec line adds variety, however, whilst a minor damage increase I'd argue would hardly do that.

I think shield just opens up too much claim for unbalance. Then hib would have another slam and reliable block peeler in their pocket that is always in the backline. There would be too many complaints IMO.. I think finding a different solution would be more welcome..

I know adding weapon damage doesn't really add much as far as grouping and may not change the way cookie-cutter warden spec, but it is the obvious gap now between friar and warden. I don't think trying to compensate the extra melee damage utility friar has and trying to convert that to defensive/group utility for warden is the right way to go with it.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 8:03 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:12 PM
PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:04 PM
As far as the Warden itself, I play with 39 Slash, so a melee buff would be nice. However, I don't think it would matter that much. I don't want them to make adjustments without a specific goal and some careful consideration. Anyway, I think archers should probably be the next ones to get adjusted, and then whichever classes are underutilized.

I think a small petition to put warden on same damage table and keep everything else the same. Friar will still have 2h damage bonus 10% and 50% parry penetration still giving friar the edge but help put wardens on par..

Wardens just don't need more damage. They don't need anything, really. "This could be nice" is one thing, but they're not particularly hurting nor is this a balance issue.

Warriors and Skalds are on a higher table than their counterparts as well.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 8:32 AM by jg777

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 3:14 AM
jg777 wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:12 AM
Adding shield spec line adds variety, however, whilst a minor damage increase I'd argue would hardly do that.

I think shield just opens up too much claim for unbalance. Then hib would have another slam and reliable block peeler in their pocket that is always in the backline. There would be too many complaints IMO.. I think finding a different solution would be more welcome..

I know adding weapon damage doesn't really add much as far as grouping and may not change the way cookie-cutter warden spec, but it is the obvious gap now between friar and warden. I don't think trying to compensate the extra melee damage utility friar has and trying to convert that to defensive/group utility for warden is the right way to go with it.

But we already discussed removing the Slam ability from the shield specline of the Warden, leaving the lesser shield styles available. The nice thing about changes is they can be reverted also. You mentioned variety, this gives Wardens just that! Why not try it out and see?

Additionally, the Friar damage increase has not helped the Friar receive groups, it has not changed the class as intended. Neither will it for Wardens. Higher Blades will likely not be seen, just as higher Staff on Friars aren’t. A melee style change might shake up the specs available, but then most would argue they need additional spec points to utilize that change because it’s not good enough to give up something just for that. Friars have a justification for a boost in melee damage due to their unnecessary strength attribute as the primary rising stat issue, Wardens have no such justification. This isn’t about a Friar and a Warden each getting the same things (you do more damage, so do I!) but making each of them achieve success in their intended roles. This isn’t about compensating a Warden because of Friar boosts, it is giving a Warden class a look and seeing what they could benefit from so they are also attractive and functional with groups as well, which Phoenix staff has indicated they will look at to make sure classes can be successful and have reason to receive group slots.

Shield offers

1) spec choices
2) increased group usefulness
3) increased survivability

Melee boost offers

1) added damage when attempting to peel

To be fair maybe the Phoenix staff can test out the Warden by boosting the melee damage and see how the community receives it but I doubt they’d see the justification for doing so.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:11 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 8:03 AM
Wardens just don't need more damage. They don't need anything, really. "This could be nice" is one thing, but they're not particularly hurting nor is this a balance issue.

Warriors and Skalds are on a higher table than their counterparts as well.

Warriors are on higher damage table because Hero get Deer form and armsman get plate, that is their bonus... Skalds are base tanks as their counterparts are rogue and healer, so they should be on a higher table..

Warden and friar are more or less balanced now except friar damage is much higher. I'm not sure how being 3 steps higher on damage table and access to twohanded weapon is comparable to 1h and unspec shield with inferior weapon styles...

Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:11 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:11 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 8:03 AM
Wardens just don't need more damage. They don't need anything, really. "This could be nice" is one thing, but they're not particularly hurting nor is this a balance issue.

Warriors and Skalds are on a higher table than their counterparts as well.

Warriors are on higher damage table because Hero get Deer form and armsman get plate, that is their bonus... Skalds are base tanks as their counterparts are rogue and healer, so they should be on a higher table..

Warden and friar are more or less balanced now except friar damage is much higher. I'm not sure how being 3 steps higher on damage table and access to twohanded weapon is comparable to 1h and unspec shield with inferior weapon styles...

Warden has a better Buff line, Friar has better Healing or Melee. Friars can't have good healing and decent melee, peels are about equal.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:31 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:11 PM
Warden has a better Buff line, Friar has better Healing or Melee. Friars can't have good healing and decent melee, peels are about equal.

Care to explain what is better about warden buffline? Friar get same base buffs dex/qui buff, endo reduction, self haste.. Only thing warden get special is PBT and haste so it's pretty even.. I already pointed out how friar has superior melee with hard data/facts can you explain where wardens are equal?

Dmg add and speed are also good but not really a game changer in a fight

Also friar can have decent healing and melee now, they just received greater heals.. You know 341 delve at level 25 rejuv vs 217delve warden heal at 26

Sun 24 Mar 2019 4:24 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:31 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:11 PM
Warden has a better Buff line, Friar has better Healing or Melee. Friars can't have good healing and decent melee, peels are about equal.

Care to explain what is better about warden buffline? Friar get same base buffs dex/qui buff, endo reduction, self haste.. Only thing warden get special is PBT and haste so it's pretty even.. I already pointed out how friar has superior melee with hard data/facts can you explain where wardens are equal?

Dmg add and speed are also good but not really a game changer in a fight

Also friar can have decent healing and melee now, they just received greater heals.. You know 341 delve at level 25 rejuv vs 217delve warden heal at 26

Friars can't be a melee DPS and heal reliably. If they're only peeling, that's one thing, but then this complaint about DPS is meaningless. You say "only PBT" and damage add，DA will easily outdps top level Friar heal proc with 7 melees running if you have 3 melee. And PBT is huge for mitigation and defense.

Sun 24 Mar 2019 4:30 AM by teiloh

Basically the argument here: you gave a class that needed buffs on an underpop realm some buffs, so buff this class that doesn't need buffs on a non-underpop realm

Sun 24 Mar 2019 1:20 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 4:24 AM
Friars can't be a melee DPS and heal reliably. If they're only peeling, that's one thing, but then this complaint about DPS is meaningless. You say "only PBT" and damage add，DA will easily outdps top level Friar heal proc with 7 melees running if you have 3 melee. And PBT is huge for mitigation and defense.

I am confused man... Warden can't DPS and heal either? Yes warden have PBT to mitigate some damage while they are meleeing but friar will also.. I haven't seen the new version of the heal buff but how the described it seemed very significant.

The proc went from being friar only that healed group on hit to a group buff meaning everone in group has the proc and when it procs it heals the whole group...

All a friar needs is a paladin in group to make up for dmg add or a thuergist or wizard with baseline BETTER dmg add. A Warden can't just get someone to buff his damage table position in game :/

Also when is anyone running 7 melee in a group...

My common sense is telling me you didn't even read or maybe comprehend the new friar changes...

Sun 24 Mar 2019 1:51 PM by jg777

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 1:20 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 4:24 AM
Friars can't be a melee DPS and heal reliably. If they're only peeling, that's one thing, but then this complaint about DPS is meaningless. You say "only PBT" and damage add，DA will easily outdps top level Friar heal proc with 7 melees running if you have 3 melee. And PBT is huge for mitigation and defense.

I am confused man... Warden can't DPS and heal either? Yes warden have PBT to mitigate some damage while they are meleeing but friar will also.. I haven't seen the new version of the heal buff but how the described it seemed very significant.

The proc went from being friar only that healed group on hit to a group buff meaning everone in group has the proc and when it procs it heals the whole group...

All a friar needs is a paladin in group to make up for dmg add or a thuergist or wizard with baseline BETTER dmg add. A Warden can't just get someone to buff his damage table position in game :/

Also when is anyone running 7 melee in a group...

My common sense is telling me you didn't even read or maybe comprehend the new friar changes...

But you are still comparing the Warden to the Friar. They aren’t exact mirrors, and shouldn’t be. Albion has different class make ups than Hibernia, and Friars aren’t able to get groups yet, despite the initial boost. We’ll see if this boost changes it. The heal proc buff may not be significant still because the heal value is still quite low and I believe only has a 15% chance of going off. The damage boost is negligible because Friars aren’t meant to be DPS in a group, that isn’t and won’t be their role and Phoenix staff recently said that point blank. I think you need to stop comparing the two classes and instead focus on the Warden and it’s role in Hibernia groups. Just because one class got a boost doesn’t mean another class needs similar.

Sun 24 Mar 2019 2:01 PM by Milchschnidde

jg777 wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 1:51 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 1:20 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 4:24 AM
Friars can't be a melee DPS and heal reliably. If they're only peeling, that's one thing, but then this complaint about DPS is meaningless. You say "only PBT" and damage add，DA will easily outdps top level Friar heal proc with 7 melees running if you have 3 melee. And PBT is huge for mitigation and defense.

I am confused man... Warden can't DPS and heal either? Yes warden have PBT to mitigate some damage while they are meleeing but friar will also.. I haven't seen the new version of the heal buff but how the described it seemed very significant.

The proc went from being friar only that healed group on hit to a group buff meaning everone in group has the proc and when it procs it heals the whole group...

All a friar needs is a paladin in group to make up for dmg add or a thuergist or wizard with baseline BETTER dmg add. A Warden can't just get someone to buff his damage table position in game :/

Also when is anyone running 7 melee in a group...

My common sense is telling me you didn't even read or maybe comprehend the new friar changes...

But you are still comparing the Warden to the Friar. They aren’t exact mirrors, and shouldn’t be. Albion has different class make ups than Hibernia, and Friars aren’t able to get groups yet, despite the initial boost. We’ll see if this boost changes it. The heal proc buff may not be significant still because the heal value is still quite low and I believe only has a 15% chance of going off. The damage boost is negligible because Friars aren’t meant to be DPS in a group, that isn’t and won’t be their role and Phoenix staff recently said that point blank. I think you need to stop comparing the two classes and instead focus on the Warden and it’s role in Hibernia groups. Just because one class got a boost doesn’t mean another class needs similar.

In my opinion you could use him as side DPS in a Tank setup and rely on his secondery heals, so having cleric, cleric, sorc, ministrel, friar, armsman and merc could be still interesting with his offensive proc..

Sun 24 Mar 2019 2:15 PM by Bradekes

jg777 wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 1:51 PM
But you are still comparing the Warden to the Friar. They aren’t exact mirrors, and shouldn’t be. Albion has different class make ups than Hibernia, and Friars aren’t able to get groups yet, despite the initial boost. We’ll see if this boost changes it. The heal proc buff may not be significant still because the heal value is still quite low and I believe only has a 15% chance of going off. The damage boost is negligible because Friars aren’t meant to be DPS in a group, that isn’t and won’t be their role and Phoenix staff recently said that point blank. I think you need to stop comparing the two classes and instead focus on the Warden and it’s role in Hibernia groups. Just because one class got a boost doesn’t mean another class needs similar.

I am comparing two comparable classes.. They literally are the same archetype.. Melee/healer hybrids... In the friar patch thread by the Dev it says they made recent changes to put friar in a similar spot as warden to get group utility... If the melee on a friar isn't a big deal then why are so many challenging wardens having more comparable ability to melee? I don't see a good counter argument in your post or others..

Sun 24 Mar 2019 3:40 PM by jg777

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 2:15 PM
jg777 wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 1:51 PM
But you are still comparing the Warden to the Friar. They aren’t exact mirrors, and shouldn’t be. Albion has different class make ups than Hibernia, and Friars aren’t able to get groups yet, despite the initial boost. We’ll see if this boost changes it. The heal proc buff may not be significant still because the heal value is still quite low and I believe only has a 15% chance of going off. The damage boost is negligible because Friars aren’t meant to be DPS in a group, that isn’t and won’t be their role and Phoenix staff recently said that point blank. I think you need to stop comparing the two classes and instead focus on the Warden and it’s role in Hibernia groups. Just because one class got a boost doesn’t mean another class needs similar.

I am comparing two comparable classes.. They literally are the same archetype.. Melee/healer hybrids... In the friar patch thread by the Dev it says they made recent changes to put friar in a similar spot as warden to get group utility... If the melee on a friar isn't a big deal then why are so many challenging wardens having more comparable ability to melee? I don't see a good counter argument in your post or others..

They are both melee hybrids, yes, but they don’t function exactly the same- they have different abilities that make them unique. I’m against raising melee for Wardens because I see no benefit to the Warden class than I should from a shield spec line ability. As stated prior, if the developers want to do that for the sake of doing it, go for it- but that’s not going to bring Wardens group ability up anymore than it is now in my opinion.

Sun 24 Mar 2019 4:21 PM by Ashenspire

People keep bringing up the original mention of the Warden spot by the devs.

They didn't mean they wanted to have wardens and friars function identically. They were talking about the literal spot in a group that Wardens have in Hib because of how the abilities are spaced out in that realm.

There are specific classes that all groups should have.

Alb - cleric cleric sorc minst

Mid - healer healer shaman skald

Hi - druid druid bard Warden

Albion is at a disadvantage because they have the least amount of classes that can heal in their should have spots. They want friars to be one of the most have, or as close to it as possible, but they understand that Albion doesn't have the flexibility of "the Warden spot."

Sun 24 Mar 2019 5:33 PM by Sym

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 1:20 PM
I haven't seen the new version of the heal buff but how the described it seemed very significant.

The proc went from being friar only that healed group on hit to a group buff meaning everone in group has the proc and when it procs it heals the whole group...

You should maybe start to stop thinking/theorycrafting that much about changes being too powerful when, as stated yourself, you didn't even see those changes in action. It seems you don't even play Friar and you rely on your own conception of the changes to say if it's going to be unbalanced or not. Pretty pointless.

The heal-proc itself was the worse spell in my whole rejuv line (which is already poor) due to its low proc-rate and its low value (which said dozen of times already by dozen of people), even when spec'd very high in rejuv. Making it castable on the whole group won't make a tiny difference since it doesn't trigger alot, almost never, and even when it does, the heal value si SO small it will never be a game breaker in ANY kind of fight. And how many melee characters are you expecting to see who will have a 15% proc rate chances to trigger the heal in a 8man alb setup ? (side note : the proc doesn't work with theurgists pets, I tried it)

<But it will make the friar more group friendly in a tank group>
How so, then ? You can bring as much melee char as you want (they won't be a lot anyways), the proc heal, at its current state, will never change the outcome of a fight. Even if having more people hitting targets may increase the chances to proc, it's not a 100 heal value (assuming 48 spec'd in rejuv. Crazy. And assuming no diseases of anykind) that will save your friends from an upcomming death. Even the HoT looks better in itself. At least the heals are fix and triggered when I choose to make use of it, and not relying on a pure RNG scenarios (but don't get it wrong neither, the HoT is almost as bad to use due to its high power cost and his huge casting delay and the poor heals anyways).

The only decent add here is the NS cure, nothing else. The greater heal will make your Friar oom in less than a few secs, and it's only a single targeted spell, not even close of what a cleric can bring with his own heals.

Sun 24 Mar 2019 6:28 PM by Bradekes

Sym wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 5:33 PM
You should maybe start to stop thinking/theorycrafting that much about changes being too powerful when, as stated yourself, you didn't even see those changes in action. It seems you don't even play Friar and you rely on your own conception of the changes to say if it's going to be unbalanced or not. Pretty pointless.

I never said friar was OP they did give friar more to be group friendly. 15% proc rate is typical with alb having defensive and offensive proc for the whole grouop i think it's actually decent synergy... I'm only advocating higher melee table for warden as I think shield spec is too strong, even without slam.

The only thing warden have that friars don't is PBT.. The changes they made did make friars better on every single level except pbt so I fail to see your complaints being valid

Sun 24 Mar 2019 6:28 PM by Bradekes

Sym wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 5:33 PM
You should maybe start to stop thinking/theorycrafting that much about changes being too powerful when, as stated yourself, you didn't even see those changes in action. It seems you don't even play Friar and you rely on your own conception of the changes to say if it's going to be unbalanced or not. Pretty pointless.

I never said friar was OP they did give friar more to be group friendly. 15% proc rate is typical with alb having defensive and offensive proc for the whole grouop i think it's actually decent synergy... I'm only advocating higher melee table for warden as I think shield spec is too strong, even without slam.

The only thing warden have that friars don't is PBT.. The changes they made did make friars better on every single level compared to warden except pbt so I fail to see your complaints being valid

Sun 24 Mar 2019 6:48 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 2:15 PM
jg777 wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 1:51 PM
But you are still comparing the Warden to the Friar. They aren’t exact mirrors, and shouldn’t be. Albion has different class make ups than Hibernia, and Friars aren’t able to get groups yet, despite the initial boost. We’ll see if this boost changes it. The heal proc buff may not be significant still because the heal value is still quite low and I believe only has a 15% chance of going off. The damage boost is negligible because Friars aren’t meant to be DPS in a group, that isn’t and won’t be their role and Phoenix staff recently said that point blank. I think you need to stop comparing the two classes and instead focus on the Warden and it’s role in Hibernia groups. Just because one class got a boost doesn’t mean another class needs similar.

I am comparing two comparable classes.. They literally are the same archetype.. Melee/healer hybrids... In the friar patch thread by the Dev it says they made recent changes to put friar in a similar spot as warden to get group utility... If the melee on a friar isn't a big deal then why are so many challenging wardens having more comparable ability to melee? I don't see a good counter argument in your post or others..

Because these absurd proposals calling for Celtic Spear and raised damage tables would make them Friars with PBT,better and permanent haste, and superior end redux.

Sun 24 Mar 2019 6:52 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 6:48 PM
Because these absurd proposals calling for Celtic Spear and raised damage tables would make them Friars with PBT,better and permanent haste, and superior end redux.

I am not advocating CSpear with raise damage table.. Either one would be nice, but i agree both is too much.. IMO simple weapon table increase would keep warden on par doesn't have to be the same table as friar even 1.9 or 2.0 would be a great improvement...

Sun 24 Mar 2019 8:28 PM by Sym

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 6:28 PM
Sym wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 5:33 PM
You should maybe start to stop thinking/theorycrafting that much about changes being too powerful when, as stated yourself, you didn't even see those changes in action. It seems you don't even play Friar and you rely on your own conception of the changes to say if it's going to be unbalanced or not. Pretty pointless.

I never said friar was OP they did give friar more to be group friendly. 15% proc rate is typical with alb having defensive and offensive proc for the whole grouop i think it's actually decent synergy... I'm only advocating higher melee table for warden as I think shield spec is too strong, even without slam.

The only thing warden have that friars don't is PBT.. The changes they made did make friars better on every single level compared to warden except pbt so I fail to see your complaints being valid

I'm not complaining here, just stating facts from experience and not only from guesses like you do.
You claim this heal proc change is OP (amongst the rest of the new changes)

Bradekes wrote: Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:20 pm
I haven't seen the new version of the heal buff but how the described it seemed very significant.

The proc went from being friar only that healed group on hit to a group buff meaning everone in group has the proc and when it procs it heals the whole group...

And you claim it from guesses and not facts. And you keep saying the same since several days. I'm telling you from facts it's by far our most useless spell from our Rejuv line (along with the base Heal). Then you talk about synergies with the cleric heal reverse proc, which might be interesting but even then, it doesn't synergies well because both proc remain low on both values and proc-rates. But at the end, the reverse heal proc from the cleric is much better than the friar's proc since alb groups are getting hit by melee attacks much more than them dealing melee attacks.
And speaking of which, most of them are running with the level 38 one (yellow), which has a value of 90 and they don't suffer that much, spec points wise, to get it, because it also increases their enhanc line that bring spec buffs.

A friar has nothing else to bring on the table to spec up to 48 in rejuv to make it worth to get the last heal proc which will be as close as the lvl 38 revese proc, from the cleric, in terms of value heal. It will just gimp most of his others spec lines for basically nothing much.

Overall, I'm not saying "those changes make this class way too powerful compared to his "peer" classes", like you do, I'm just trying to see if those changes actually bring something usefull to the class or not. And currently, aside of the NS cure which helps, and the Greater heal on a tiny note (but I still do not use it 80% of the time due to mana cost), they don't as much as you claim they do.
If you think Wardens are so bad compared to the current Friar, then make a thread about what you want to see as an improvement to their tools and just stop making random guesses about the ones affecting the Friar.

Sun 24 Mar 2019 10:02 PM by Bradekes

Sym wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 8:28 PM
And you claim it from guesses and not facts.

I am not saying anything about friar being overpowered I never did and will not.. I am saying warden could use a small buff to their melee damage via dmg table.. Stop putting words in my mouth... Friars healing is better than warden-fact, friar melee is better than warden-fact, friar self buffs (dex/qui)are better than warden-fact, friars anytime style growthrate is better than warden-fact.. And despite all that I just ask for a simple thing..

let me show you the facts, so you can stop thinking I'm assuming or whatever you think I am doing...

Warden level 26 Major Heal - 219
Friar Level 25 Greater Heal - 341

Friar gets Dex/Qui - raising weapon skill/weapon dmg/cast speed makes those greater heals have same cast time as major heals
Warden gets dmg add - adds marginal dmg

Damage table Friar 2.1
Damage table Warden 1.8

Friar Taunt style 0.70 growth rate +10 to-hit 0 Defense bonus
Warden Taunt style 0.58 or 0.59 growth rate +10 to-hit -10 Defense bonus

Friar gets Evade 5 = 25%+dex/qui bonus
Warden get PBT = 25%block vs a single target attacker w/1.5 weapon speed(assuming highest level PBT)

So even if Warden is on 2.1 damage table Friar will also be doing 16% more damage from styles and also 10% more damage from having 2h bonus.

These are all undisputable facts not assuming or lack of gameplay this is just how it is

I am not seeing how PBT is equal to all of those items even excluding your group proc buff which I don't think is that strong as that is not what synergy means. I also know Albion needed a bit of versatility in the support tree. SOOOO all I am asking is to boost warden damage table to 1.9 2.0 or 2.1 and not adjust anything else.. this is fair and shouldn't require this much typing to get people to understand

Mon 25 Mar 2019 12:06 AM by Sym

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 10:02 PM
let me show you the facts, so you can stop thinking I'm assuming or whatever you think I am doing...

Warden level 26 Major Heal - 219
Friar Level 25 Greater Heal - 341

Friar gets Dex/Qui - raising weapon skill/dmg
Warden gets dmg add - adds marginal dmg

Damage table Friar 2.1
Damage table Warden 1.8

Friar Taunt style 0.70 growth rate +10 to-hit 0 Defense bonus
Warden Taunt style 0.58 or 0.59 growth rate +10 to-hit -10 Defense bonus

So even if Warden is on 2.1 damage table Friar will also be doing 16% more damage from styles and also 10% more damage from having 2h bonus.

These are all undisputable facts not assuming or lack of gameplay this is just how it is

Let's make it clear because it seems you don't want to read what I said :

Bradekes wrote: Warden level 26 Major Heal - 219 => Power Cost = 19
Friar Level 25 Greater Heal - 341 => Power Cost = 60

And then, what I said :

Sym wrote: And currently, aside of the NS cure which helps, and the Greater heal on a tiny note (but I still do not use it 80% of the time due to mana cost), they don't as much as you claim they do.

What the point to compare two heals when they aren't on the same table value, power cost speaking ? If you want to carry on, the Greater Heal cost as much power as the lvl 24 HoT (61 power, exactly). I'm at 50% mana after 8 Greater Heals (to heal a single target) and 5 with the HoT. I was still at 70+% power after 20 Major heals streak (I just tried it now)
141 more delve from the Greater compared to the Major's for 41 extra power cost, it sounds OP to you ?

The greater heals up to 55% more than the Major heal and makes me oom twice as fast compared to the Major one.
So let's make in perspective in a fight : the Greater heal will help me to heal a single target to save him up from an upcoming death slightly quicker than the Major heal, but on an assist train, I'll be able to heal a single target 5 times streak before seeing my power pool decrease to less than 50% (and assuming I didn't have to cast HoT at start, cure diseases/poisons and such). How much time do you think the friar will remain usefull as an assist healer when he's oom after a couple single target heals ?
As I said, I don't even use the Greater Heal due to its huge power cost, so I don't get why you try to compare those two heals like if the second one was that usefull compared to the first ?

Even when it comes to compare Warden's Major Heal and Friar's one (before the add of the Greater heal), Wardens is still ahead :
Warden's Major heal lvl 26 => 219 / 19 power
Friar's Major heal lvl 25 => 211 / 19 power

And it's just about the level 25 Greater heal.
Lvl 41 Greater Heal => 549 delve / 95 power cost. Show me how usefull you'll be with this heal in a fight, please. I can't wait.

Mana issues were already a huge thing for friars without this new Heal, it will be even more painful with it.

Now about the Dex/Quick buff and WeapSkill :

Warden Stats :
Primary = EMP ; Secondary = STR ; Tertiary = CON

Friar stats :
Primary = PIE ; Secondary = CON ; Tertiary = STR

Do you know why the Friar has one of the lowest weapskill in the game now ? Did you know friar didn't have a Dex/Quick buff at start ? It has been added later due to his Weapskill being so damn low because of Staff being dex-based and not having Dex in any Primary / Secondary or teriary stats ? I would say my current WeapSkill is low even with a red Dex/Quick buff. Funny.

There goes the damages table (which is a custom change here), and I'm pretty happy about it.

Friar Taunt style 0.70 growth rate +10 to-hit 0 Defense bonus LVL 29 - 2 Handed
Warden Taunt style 0.58 or 0.59 growth rate +10 to-hit -10 Defense bonus LVL 6 - 1 Handed + Medium Shield

Not even worth the time to argue on this matter.

But at the very end, once again, you keep trying to compare things between peer-classes and not speaking about things that make a specific class usefull or not. Really pointless since, as stated by others aswell, no one asked to play clones classes. They can be both melee classes but have different abilities.

Mon 25 Mar 2019 12:20 AM by Bradekes

Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 12:06 AM
But at the very end, once again, you keep trying to compare things between peer-classes and not speaking about things that make a specific class usefull or not. Really pointless since, as stated by others aswell, no one asked to play clones classes. They can be both melee classes but have different abilities.

Sorry but all your points are moot.. Medium shield that is unspecced isn't worth anything but the item utility it provides.. Also friar can equip mace+shield for when not engaging. Yes your power cost is higher w/greater heal but that means nothing vs the utility it brings in a pinch, as you may only get 1 heal off before you get interrupted.. Atleast you have the option to use major heal too, to save power. And yes growth rates matter.

Friar may not gain in dex per level but it gets dexqui buff and speccing aug dex (dmg/cast spd/evade/parry) is a very nice bonus to many things vs aug str only raising warden damage..

Do you know what it means to be 2.1 on damage table vs 1.8?
Let's say base damage was 100 and speed and weapon were equal, a Warden would do 180 dmg and a Friar would do 210 without 2h bonus growthrate or anything

Then with growthrate warden would do 180×1.59=286dmg a friar would do 210×1.70=357.. Again this is without 2h bonus

Then with 2h bonus 357×1.10= 392dmg

So tell me how 23str from leveling makes up for those numbers?

That's a 37% lead on dps for friar.... That's without dex/qui self buff which is 93dex/qui at highest level vs 23+39=62 warden will have from str/con pot + str from secondary stat gain... Unless warden wants to run str/con charge for 23+75= 98 being only 5 higher than friar... Which is a lot of maintenance and I would only run str/con pot cause I'm cheap..

2h weapon also have 50%(might be 25% here) parry penetration meaning you'll be hitting more often

And not to over-exaggerate but 2h weapons scale in damage passed comp 51 vs 1h weapon which stop at 51comp for damage increases.. I do not have exact values for those numbers so I cannot add them but it's just another benefit warden lacks.. Which is just minor info but still important.

Also just for kicks let's use same data to calculate a Warriors damage to compare to friar to see where they sit.

Most warrior go Hammer for backsnare so we will use Hammer taunt for growth rate anytimer.

That 100 base damage would be 240.
240×1.58=379 provoke
379×1.10=411 2h bonus

411 puts warrior about 4.5% higher than friar for anytime dps vs the 37% discrepancy between warden and friar...

Mon 25 Mar 2019 6:32 PM by Arkeon

Good way could be, line shield without stun, only snare (evaluated on the additional skill points attributed)

Mon 25 Mar 2019 11:00 PM by Bradekes

Arkeon wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 6:32 PM
Good way could be, line shield without stun, only snare (evaluated on the additional skill points attributed)

I am not a fan of shield spec... New spec would be like 43shield 37nurture 33regrowth and that sounds like the exact same warden we have now except you'd be designated blockbot. Which is non-engaging and boring... Giving a psuedo version of slam also sounds lame it will mean all you do is spam shield styles for your dps which is weird... Might aswell give them a mainhand shield too and turn them into a turtle...

Tue 26 Mar 2019 12:43 AM by Arkeon

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 11:00 PM
Arkeon wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 6:32 PM
Good way could be, line shield without stun, only snare (evaluated on the additional skill points attributed)

I am not a fan of shield spec... New spec would be like 43shield 37nurture 33regrowth and that sounds like the exact same warden we have now except you'd be designated blockbot. Which is non-engaging and boring... Giving a psuedo version of slam also sounds lame it will mean all you do is spam shield styles for your dps which is weird... Might aswell give them a mainhand shield too and turn them into a turtle...

No skill to be a blockbot,just a balance on the warden who want to go alone, and right now they are outclassed by a lot of enhanced classes (cuz they need to be attractive in groups, and in my opinion it is a good thing) Or simply a shield line without skill, more weapon, or shield without related skills would have no impact on setup, but they would rebalance the single game side

Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:19 AM by Bradekes

Arkeon wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 12:43 AM
No skill to be a blockbot,just a balance on the warden who want to go alone, and right now they are outclassed by a lot of enhanced classes (cuz they need to be attractive in groups, and in my opinion it is a good thing) Or simply a shield line without skill, more weapon, or shield without related skills would have no impact on setup, but they would rebalance the single game side

They already have that with parry? This would be pointless without extra spec points.. A simple DPS increase via higher damage table makes warden more viable solo or smallman because they won't be hitting with a wetnoodle, no ones scared of a wardens dps... They are literally the lowest dps class that sports speccable melee weapon.. Even bard will out dps warden with DD shout and melee spec... Well except maybe scout melee dps..

Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:56 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:19 AM
Arkeon wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 12:43 AM
No skill to be a blockbot,just a balance on the warden who want to go alone, and right now they are outclassed by a lot of enhanced classes (cuz they need to be attractive in groups, and in my opinion it is a good thing) Or simply a shield line without skill, more weapon, or shield without related skills would have no impact on setup, but they would rebalance the single game side

They already have that with parry? This would be pointless without extra spec points.. A simple DPS increase via higher damage table makes warden more viable solo or smallman because they won't be hitting with a wetnoodle, no ones scared of a wardens dps... They are literally the lowest dps class that sports speccable melee weapon.. Even bard will out dps warden with DD shout and melee spec... Well except maybe scout melee dps..

I doubt a Bard will out DPS a Warden since Wardens have 34-38% haste and procs here on RoGs go off quite often. Then there's also DA.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:28 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:56 AM
I doubt a Bard will out DPS a Warden since Wardens have 34-38% haste and procs here on RoGs go off quite often. Then there's also DA.

This will be a bit hard to explain but haste dimishes your weapons DPS the higher your specced.. I tested this.. Without 38% haste, 1 point per blades raised damage about 1% dps.. After using haste that dps goes down to about 0.7% per spec in blades. Now it does make your procs go off more often but im not sure how well that offsets your dps drop from haste...

These tests were done with 4.4speed weapon so I wasn't over doing the haste to go passed 1.5spd.. So just imagine how small that damage really is to be on lowest damage table having a key enhancement actually lowering your dps.

Even a 4.4 speed weapon will proc only about 11% of the time. Unless devs tweaked the %'s but the only weapon with 4.4 attack speed for warden is an ablative proc... And while that survivability sounds great your dps is just garbage... Doing less than 100 dmg a hit is very healable...

If warden self haste was celerity we wouldn't be discussing this right now as 38% celerity would actually bring Warden damage on par with friar... Also DMG add is reduced quite a bit with such fast swings it's consistant on dps but it doesn't really deal enough to make a difference.. Maybe 10-15dmg a hit..

So my vote is to either make warden self haste celerity.. Or raise their damage table.. Still this is the only viable options that don't introduce something that will break the class

Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:44 AM by Ceen

Why exactly should they change a working class for 1-3 solo people?

Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:30 AM by Bradekes

Ceen wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:44 AM
Why exactly should they change a working class for 1-3 solo people?

Sounds like you couldn't find a real way to counter my arguments seeings it's real data that shows a problem, so you try to say it's not important because it doesn't affect as many people as other problems?

Keep in mind my solution is pretty simple and doesn't take but 2minutes to adjust.. If the Devs wanna find a different way to adjust the class to cause more problems via adding utility that's on them and others for suggesting it.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 12:32 PM by Ceen

You can "argue" as much as you want, doesn't make your Warden buffs more valid.
Warden is working as intended and staff won't change class balance if there is no major imbalance as they said multiple times already - sry.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 12:44 PM by Bradekes

Ceen wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 12:32 PM
You can "argue" as much as you want, doesn't make your Warden buffs more valid.
Warden is working as intended and staff won't change class balance if there is no major imbalance as they said multiple times already - sry.

Did you even read my posts? Lol... Such a troll

Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:08 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:28 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:56 AM
I doubt a Bard will out DPS a Warden since Wardens have 34-38% haste and procs here on RoGs go off quite often. Then there's also DA.

This will be a bit hard to explain but haste dimishes your weapons DPS the higher your specced.. I tested this.. Without 38% haste, 1 point per blades raised damage about 1% dps.. After using haste that dps goes down to about 0.7% per spec in blades. Now it does make your procs go off more often but im not sure how well that offsets your dps drop from haste...

These tests were done with 4.4speed weapon so I wasn't over doing the haste to go passed 1.5spd.. So just imagine how small that damage really is to be on lowest damage table having a key enhancement actually lowering your dps.

Even a 4.4 speed weapon will proc only about 11% of the time. Unless devs tweaked the %'s but the only weapon with 4.4 attack speed for warden is an ablative proc... And while that survivability sounds great your dps is just garbage... Doing less than 100 dmg a hit is very healable...

If warden self haste was celerity we wouldn't be discussing this right now as 38% celerity would actually bring Warden damage on par with friar... Also DMG add is reduced quite a bit with such fast swings it's consistant on dps but it doesn't really deal enough to make a difference.. Maybe 10-15dmg a hit..

So my vote is to either make warden self haste celerity.. Or raise their damage table.. Still this is the only viable options that don't introduce something that will break the class

Wardens don't need more damage. And Celerity is just haste that stacks. The Warden haste adds DPS, full-stop.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:26 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:08 PM
Wardens don't need more damage. And Celerity is just haste that stacks. The Warden haste adds DPS, full-stop.

No it absolutely doesn't... Haste adjusts your style damage and matches DPS before haste... Celerity adds dps.. Look up some basic DAoC mechanics before you try to add your 2cents

Haste will raise non-style dps however

I will do some testings tonight and post results without quickness and we'll see what results I get

Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:06 PM by Ashenspire

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:26 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:08 PM
Wardens don't need more damage. And Celerity is just haste that stacks. The Warden haste adds DPS, full-stop.

No it absolutely doesn't... Haste adjusts your style damage and matches DPS before haste... Celerity adds dps.. Look up some basic DAoC mechanics before you try to add your 2cents

Haste will raise non-style dps however

I will do some testings tonight and post results without quickness and we'll see what results I get

Haste reduces the damage of your individual styled attacks but provides more DPS overall. Your base damage doesn't change, but the style modifier goes down because it takes your attack speed into consideration. The moment you hit twice, you are now doing more damage over time than without haste

A Warden will NEVER one shot something, so front loading isn't something they should ever care about. Haste is more DPS. End of story.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 4:31 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:06 PM
A Warden will NEVER one shot something, so front loading isn't something they should ever care about. Haste is more DPS. End of story.

Lol... Paladin and Friar are on the same damage table.. I promise you no paladin feels like they are ONE SHOOTING anything especially with a One Hander...

I will do some testing when I get home and we will see just how much DPS gain a warden gets from their haste.. I happen to level a warden to 49 for testing this weekend.. Next will be friar.. Dps tests on dummy

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:13 PM by Ashenspire

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 4:31 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:06 PM
A Warden will NEVER one shot something, so front loading isn't something they should ever care about. Haste is more DPS. End of story.

Lol... Paladin and Friar are on the same damage table.. I promise you no paladin feels like they are ONE SHOOTING anything especially with a One Hander...

I will do some testing when I get home and we will see just how much DPS gain a warden gets from their haste.. I happen to level a warden to 49 for testing this weekend.. Next will be friar.. Dps tests on dummy

What are you on about? Who said anything about a friar or a paladin?

There's a school of thought that you can forego quickness and haste on some classes as in a melee train they will only ever get off 1 attack so you want it to hit as hard as you can.

This is a terrible line of thought, it's impractical, and no one should ever do this. ESPECIALLY if you're using a 1 handed weapon.

The more haste, the more quickness, the more damage you do over time. It's how the damage formulas were built. The tests have been done, it's been figured out 15+ years ago.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:16 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:13 PM
What are you on about? Who said anything about a friar or a paladin?

You said warden shouldn't one shot anything but apparently you didn't read my other posts comparing friar and warden base dps... You also must not know what I'm asking for balance wise for warden..

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:20 PM by Ashenspire

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:16 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:13 PM
What are you on about? Who said anything about a friar or a paladin?

You said warden shouldn't one shot anything but apparently you didn't read my other posts comparing friar and warden base dps... You also must not know what I'm asking for balance wise for warden..

I read your entire post. I was addressing your claim that haste reduces dps.

You're wrong.

So no only did you not read my post, you're just glomping onto single sentences and responding out of context.

I don't care what you're asking for balance wise for a Warden. I'm simply pointing out you have no idea how haste works. From that, one can infer that your ideas for balancing wardens are probably misguided, but that's a different conversation altogether

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:29 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:20 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:16 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:13 PM
What are you on about? Who said anything about a friar or a paladin?

You said warden shouldn't one shot anything but apparently you didn't read my other posts comparing friar and warden base dps... You also must not know what I'm asking for balance wise for warden..

I read your entire post. I was addressing your claim that haste reduces dps.

You're wrong.

So no only did you not read my post, you're just glomping onto single sentences and responding out of context.

I don't care what you're asking for balance wise for a Warden. I'm simply pointing out you have no idea how haste works. From that, one can infer that your ideas for balancing wardens are probably misguided, but that's a different conversation altogether

His ideas for balancing Wardens are misguided as Wardens do not require anything at the moment. They are not under-performing nor are they under utilized.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:32 PM by Ashenspire

You're not wrong. When every group wants your class, you're probably doing okay.

Wardens bore me, and they're not complicated. That doesn't make them weak.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:36 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:20 PM
I don't care what you're asking for balance wise for a Warden. I'm simply pointing out you have no idea how haste works. From that, one can infer that your ideas for balancing wardens are probably misguided, but that's a different conversation altogether

I never took you out of context.. And haste % is not direct dps increase.. Maybe if you brought sources or gave an example to how exactly haste affects dps with some math I'd listen and appreciate your posts...

But my other data is about DPS based on Weapon Skill table and Growth rates.. Which concludes Friars DPS is 37% higher with no figures added..

I will do the homework myself to give a more accurate example after I do the math on how much DPS can be gained by Haste... Just note that my style damage with taunt and max str on celt with 43+11 using 4.4 speed weapon 38%haste buff was only 89dmg a hit... At about 2.0 attack speed.. Meaning about 45dps

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:39 PM by Amp_Phetamine

But why are you trying to force something that isn't there? Why do Wardens have to be proficient in melee dps output? All these requests for mirroring is the same thing that happened with the crap show that is Live DAoC and I really really really enjoy this server far too much to not dispute these request threads.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:43 PM by Bradekes

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:39 PM
But why are you trying to force something that isn't there? Why do Wardens have to be proficient in melee dps output? All these requests for mirroring is the same thing that happened with the crap show that is Live DAoC and I really really really enjoy this server far too much to not dispute these request threads.

Because warden used to be proficient in melee with artifacts and master levels.. Before that they were garbage.. But I always enjoyed melee warden and I do not enjoy support warden.. Melee warden don't need to be overpowered to be fun but they do need to be on par to be competitive...

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:48 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:43 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:39 PM
But why are you trying to force something that isn't there? Why do Wardens have to be proficient in melee dps output? All these requests for mirroring is the same thing that happened with the crap show that is Live DAoC and I really really really enjoy this server far too much to not dispute these request threads.

Because warden used to be proficient in melee with artifacts and master levels.. Before that they were garbage.. But I always enjoyed melee warden and I do not enjoy support warden.. Melee warden don't need to be overpowered to be fun but they do need to be on par to be competitive...

You're correct. Melee Wardens never truly existed until Artifacts came out. (I pray that this never comes to pass on this server - ToA).

Although, I'm fairly certain you can still play a melee Warden here. Rotate between DoT proc weps/disease(?)/DD procs. Side snare and kite for heals. Should still be viable, just a slow process.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:48 PM by Ashenspire

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:36 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:20 PM
I don't care what you're asking for balance wise for a Warden. I'm simply pointing out you have no idea how haste works. From that, one can infer that your ideas for balancing wardens are probably misguided, but that's a different conversation altogether

I never took you out of context.. And haste % is not direct dps increase.. Maybe if you brought sources or gave an example to how exactly haste affects dps with some math I'd listen and appreciate your posts...

But my other data is about DPS based on Weapon Skill table and Growth rates.. Which concludes Friars DPS is 37% higher with no figures added..

I will do the homework myself to give a more accurate example after I do the math on how much DPS can be gained by Haste... Just note that my style damage with taunt and max str on celt with 43+11 using 4.4 speed weapon 38%haste buff was only 89dmg a hit... At about 2.0 attack speed.. Meaning about 45dps

I'll make it simple:

Using a base damage of 100, a delay of 3, and 50 bonus damage from your style.

Without haste:

100+50 damage every 3 seconds = 150/3 = 50 DPS.

With 38% haste:

100+(50*.62) damage every (3*.62) seconds = 131/1.86 = 70.43 DPS.

So that 38% haste is a 40.86% DPS increase in this scenario. Obviously this is simplified for sake of clarity and there are more variables under the hood in terms of determining style bonus and swing speed, but the fact remains.

Haste is always better (unless it brings it goes under the swing speed cap then that portion is wasted).

Wardens were never good at melee. Even with artifacts and MLs they still hit like a wet noodle. What they lack in damage they more than make up for in utility. Stop asking for more damage. They're naturalists.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:22 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:48 PM
Haste is always better (unless it brings it goes under the swing speed cap then that portion is wasted).

Wardens were never good at melee. Even with artifacts and MLs they still hit like a wet noodle. What they lack in damage they more than make up for in utility. Stop asking for more damage. They're naturalists.

Thank you for your info.. You must have never fought a warden using traitors dagger... Especially after celerity was added with slow mainhand with ABS debuff...

And Friars are acolyte but have 95% dmg as a warrior on their any time styles.. So let's not go there please..

Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:28 PM by Ashenspire

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:22 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:48 PM
Haste is always better (unless it brings it goes under the swing speed cap then that portion is wasted).

Wardens were never good at melee. Even with artifacts and MLs they still hit like a wet noodle. What they lack in damage they more than make up for in utility. Stop asking for more damage. They're naturalists.

Thank you for your info.. You must have never fought a warden using traitors dagger... Especially after celerity was added with slow mainhand with ABS debuff...

And Friars are acolyte but have 95% dmg as a warrior on their any time styles.. So let's not go there please..

Fought plenty of Wardens with Artifacts. They still didn't hit hard, they still did garbage damage. The went from 60 damage to 80. Ho boy.

Friars do not have 95% of a warriors damage. They're two damage tables lower and have 45+ less main stat for their damage. Don't use hyperbole to prove your nonexistent point.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:50 PM by Arkeon

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:28 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:22 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:48 PM
Friars do not have 95% of a warriors damage. They're two damage tables lower and have 45+ less main stat for their damage. Don't use hyperbole to prove your nonexistent point.

war 22

Friar
Holy Staff (34 Staff) becomes a back positional style with a 60% snare for 15 seconds

Damage table increase to VW damage table (20 -> 21)<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Self buff offensive proc that triggers a group heal at every 8 spec in rejuvenation. Delve subject to change, for now 100 delve at 48 and 75 at 40, 60 at 32, 45 at 24, 30 at 16, 15 at 8. Last 20 minutes.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:57 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:28 PM
Fought plenty of Wardens with Artifacts. They still didn't hit hard, they still did garbage damage. The went from 60 damage to 80. Ho boy.

Friars do not have 95% of a warriors damage. They're two damage tables lower and have 45+ less main stat for their damage. Don't use hyperbole to prove your nonexistent point.

The math for anytime styles says otherwise... Yes the warrior can have more strength from leveling up but base damage wise it is fact...

let's do the figures with that 100 base damage multiplied by weapon table

friar 100x2.1=210
warrior 100x2.4=240

Friar level 29 staff growth rate is 0.70 so 210x1.70=357
Warrior Hammer Taunt growthrate at 0.58 so 240x1.58=379.2

357/379.2=0.941

So 6% off Warrior damage... Yes this is missing main damage stat discrepancy but this is just food for thought.. as Friar will always have full base dex + a version of dex/qui.. You must also not forget Friar get the exact same self haste buff as warden albeit on a 30s buff 3m cooldown... pushing their DPS way passed a warrior using your Haste calculations...

Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:12 PM by Ashenspire

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:57 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:28 PM
Fought plenty of Wardens with Artifacts. They still didn't hit hard, they still did garbage damage. The went from 60 damage to 80. Ho boy.

Friars do not have 95% of a warriors damage. They're two damage tables lower and have 45+ less main stat for their damage. Don't use hyperbole to prove your nonexistent point.

The math for anytime styles says otherwise... Yes the warrior can have more strength from leveling up but base damage wise it is fact...

let's do the figures with that 100 base damage multiplied by weapon table

friar 100x2.1=210
warrior 100x2.4=240

Friar level 29 staff growth rate is 0.70 so 210x1.70=357
Warrior Hammer Taunt growthrate at 0.58 so 240x1.58=379.2

357/379.2=0.941

So 6% off Warrior damage... Yes this is missing main damage stat discrepancy but this is just food for thought.. as Friar will always have full base dex + a version of dex/qui.. You must also not forget Friar get the exact same self haste buff as warden albeit on a 30s buff 3m cooldown... pushing their DPS way passed a warrior using your Haste calculations...

None of this matters as you can't look at it that way.

Friars and warriors do not have the same base damage. If a Friar is hitting for the same base damage as a warrior, the warrior is swinging significantly faster before haste, resulting in significantly more dps, which is then further modified that much more by any haste/celerity effects.

Also, ignoring up to a potential 85 more main stat difference between Warrior and Friar is just negligent

Thank you for proving my point that you're wrong, though

Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:16 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:12 PM
None of this matters as you can't look at it that way.

Friars and warriors do not have the same base damage. If a Friar is hitting for the same base damage as a warrior, the warrior is swinging significantly faster, resulting in significantly more dps, which is then further modified that much more by any haste/celerity effects.

Thank you for proving my point that you're wrong, though

Where in my math am I wrong? Again if you're going to call me out, provide numbers like I did, or clarify my mistake.. Base damage in my calculations were none discriminating and provided flat bases.. If you want to factor in the difference in damage based on damage stat gap go ahead..

But the damage table means nothing with how high growth rate friars anytime style is...

Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:21 PM by Ashenspire

Where you're wrong is you're implying friars and warriors have the same base damage.

You also are using a base damage with no delay referenced and using haste without a time value.

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

And again, you can't ignore 35-85 more main stat in the damage calculation.

You use buffs but fail to recognize that the warrior can also be buffed, too.

If you're talking about some 1v1 situation, you don't make 1 to 1 comparisons like that in this game.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:33 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:21 PM
Where you're wrong is you're implying friars and warriors have the same base damage.

You also are using a base damage with no delay referenced and using haste without a time value.

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

And again, you can't ignore 35-85 more main stat in the damage calculation.

You use buffs but fail to recognize that the warrior can also be buffed, too.

If you're talking about some 1v1 situation, you don't make 1 to 1 comparisons like that in this game.

I never said they had same base damage... I'm factoring in the damage table differences to show the difference in base damage... How is that hard to understand? I am purely calculating the % damage difference of anytime style...

The other numbers can very so much calculating them would start adding in assumptions of race choices and str vs quickness calculations which really muddle up clear comparisons that can't be argued.

Most of your raw damage comes from weapon table position and style growth rates the other dps is not near as impactful when all added up..

And yes warrior can have full buffs provided to them easily not disputing that or trying to cheese my info.. It is simply that they will probably not have full buffs str/con w/dex/qui and will be built for front load dmg or celerity.

But even all this explaining is retracting from the fact that wardens should be more combat oriented and not be forced to be support or rely on weapon swaps for proc cheese maintenance.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:44 PM by Ashenspire

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:33 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:21 PM
Where you're wrong is you're implying friars and warriors have the same base damage.

You also are using a base damage with no delay referenced and using haste without a time value.

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

And again, you can't ignore 35-85 more main stat in the damage calculation.

You use buffs but fail to recognize that the warrior can also be buffed, too.

If you're talking about some 1v1 situation, you don't make 1 to 1 comparisons like that in this game.

I never said they had same base damage... I'm factoring in the damage table differences to show the difference in base damage... How is that hard to understand? I am purely calculating the % damage difference of anytime style...

The other numbers can very so much calculating them would start adding in assumptions of race choices and str vs quickness calculations which really muddle up clear comparisons that can't be argued.

Most of your raw damage comes from weapon table position and style growth rates the other dps is not near as impactful when all added up..

And yes warrior can have full buffs provided to them easily not disputing that or trying to cheese my info.. It is simply that they will probably not have full buffs str/con w/dex/qui and will be built for front load dmg or celerity.

But even all this explaining is retracting from the fact that wardens should be more combat oriented and not be forced to be support or rely on weapon swaps for proc cheese maintenance.

You aren't factoring anything and your math is flawed because it's wrong from the get go. That's not how you look at a class' damage capabilities. You can't compare a single hit to a single hit. It makes no sense.

By your logic a Warden does 80% of the damage of a Friar with their anytime. That's using your math. But you claim to only hit for 90 damage...

Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:52 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:44 PM
You aren't factoring anything and your math is flawed because it's wrong from the get go. That's not how you look at a class' damage capabilities. You can't compare a single hit to a single hit. It makes no sense.

By your logic a Warden does 80% of the damage of a Friar with their anytime. That's using your math. But you claim to only hit for 90 damage...

Go ahead and do the math then? Where am I wrong point it out? Just saying I'm doing it wrong doesn't show me you know what you're talking about.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:56 PM by Ashenspire

100 base damage. 18 damage table. .58 GR on their anytime.

So wardens can hit for 284 damage. That seems fine for a 1h compared to friars 357 with a 2h.

That's the logic you're using. Implying that the classes have the same base damage is where you're wrong. Assuming they all have the same swing speed is where you're wrong. Saying main stat isn't important is where you're wrong.

Wardens don't need more offense. They're not friars. Stop trying to make them Friars. Even with artifacts, they still didn't do a lot of damage. They just had a ton of survivability and utility.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:08 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:56 PM
100 base damage. 18 damage table. .58 GR on their anytime.

So wardens can hit for 284 damage. That seems fine for a 1h compared to friars 357 with a 2h.

That's the logic you're using. Implying that the classes have the same base damage is where you're wrong. Assuming they all have the same swing speed is where you're wrong. Saying main stat isn't important is where you're wrong.

Wardens don't need more offense. They're not friars. Stop trying to make them Friars. Even with artifacts, they still didn't do a lot of damage. They just had a ton of survivability and utility.

I'm saying that if the damage without damage table equipping same weapon with same speed is 100 damage than a warden equipping that weapon would have its damage modified by 1.8×base damage for that weapon.. Then a friar equipping that same weapon would do its base damage 100 times friar weapin table of 2.1 resulting in 210 damage.. That's how the game factors in damage from weapon table...

Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:25 PM by Ashenspire

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:08 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:56 PM
100 base damage. 18 damage table. .58 GR on their anytime.

So wardens can hit for 284 damage. That seems fine for a 1h compared to friars 357 with a 2h.

That's the logic you're using. Implying that the classes have the same base damage is where you're wrong. Assuming they all have the same swing speed is where you're wrong. Saying main stat isn't important is where you're wrong.

Wardens don't need more offense. They're not friars. Stop trying to make them Friars. Even with artifacts, they still didn't do a lot of damage. They just had a ton of survivability and utility.

I'm saying that if the damage without damage table equipping same weapon with same speed is 100 damage than a warden equipping that weapon would have its damage modified by 1.8×base damage for that weapon.. Then a friar equipping that same weapon would do its base damage 100 times friar weapin table of 2.1 resulting in 210 damage.. That's how the game factors in damage from weapon table...

And that's not even close to how the game factors damage completely as it leaves out so many variables so you're still wrong.

Because if that's the case, you claim to do 90 damage, so friars would do 112 damage. Hardly have breaking using your math.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:35 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:25 PM
And that's not even close to how the game factors damage completely as it leaves out so many variables so you're still wrong.

Because if that's the case, you claim to do 90 damage, so friars would do 112 damage. Hardly have breaking using your math.

My in game damage has many other factors that I am not including into these calculations.. I am buffed I have stats.. 89 damage w/0.58 growthrate style & w/38% haste buff using a 4.4speec blade.. And yes that is how base damage is calculated with no other factors.. Friar would also receive 10% damage boost from 2h weapon that isn't factored in.. % damage is much harder to calculate with all the other variables. So let's take my info at face value

Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:39 PM by Ashenspire

The face value of your data is worthless. That's my point.

A theorized single hit, without all the factors, in a vacuum, is meaningless.

Friars don't do 95% of the damage as a Warrior.

Haste is always a DPS increase.

Wardens don't need more damage.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:46 PM by Bradekes

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:39 PM
The face value of your data is worthless. That's my point.

A theorized single hit, without all the factors, in a vacuum, is meaningless.

Friars don't do 95% of the damage as a Warrior.

Haste is always a DPS increase.

Wardens don't need more damage.

That is why I already said I planned on giving more data tonight when I play so I'll give you some more meaningless data.. Until I get a friar to 49 too and show you more numbers I'm sure you'll say are meaningless

Heck I'll even get my hero to 49 to test and compare that.. I don't want to level a warrior and my hero is already 39 so it'll be easy enough.. My GF has a 50 druid I'll fully buff and present my data unbiased

Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:38 PM by jg777

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:46 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:39 PM
The face value of your data is worthless. That's my point.

A theorized single hit, without all the factors, in a vacuum, is meaningless.

Friars don't do 95% of the damage as a Warrior.

Haste is always a DPS increase.

Wardens don't need more damage.
That is why I already said I planned on giving more data tonight when I play so I'll give you some more meaningless data.. Until I get a friar to 49 too and show you more numbers I'm sure you'll say are meaningless

Instead of trying to demonstrate the damage difference please demonstrate why a damage increase for the Warden is necessary and will serve to increase its ability to obtain groups better. The Friar’s damage increase failed to achieve a favorable increase in Friar’s groupability if we’re looking for precedent, but that may be irreverent because it suffered from a lack of many group utility aspects a Warden does not. Remember we aren’t discussing what is “fair”, we are discussing what is necessary to achieve class viability in groups. Disregard, if you can, the reasoning that Wardens should get a damage increase because the Friars did. Pretend they didn’t, and demonstrate why the present Warden should now get one to obtain better groupability and how it’ll serve the classes function in groups better.

I’d be happy to demonstrate in more detail than previously why a shield spec line for a Warden is necessary to obtain better groupability and would improve the class in general.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:48 PM by Bradekes

jg777 wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:38 PM
Instead of trying to demonstrate the damage difference please demonstrate why a damage increase for the Warden is necessary and will serve to increase its ability to obtain groups better.

You and I are on a different page as far as what type of changes we want for warden. Warden don't need more group utility as they get groups relatively easy. A hybrid class like Warden shouldn't be put in a box to have to spec for groupability. Having that option is great but so should other options.

Sacrificing 8man utility I should be able to divert that into Soloability or 2-4man options via melee damage having that as a speccable option.. That is my reasoning even without knowing a different class gets that option.

Totally independant to the Warden class not having CC, only ranged interrupt would be unspecced shortbow, no magic damage the only way to increase viability is through the only outlet wardens have for making a difference in a fight other than healing and that is melee dps.. Cause if your not healing your either just standing there or interrupting which anyone can do even without melee spec

Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:11 PM by Milchschnidde

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:48 PM
jg777 wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:38 PM
Instead of trying to demonstrate the damage difference please demonstrate why a damage increase for the Warden is necessary and will serve to increase its ability to obtain groups better.

You and I are on a different page as far as what type of changes we want for warden. Warden don't need more group utility as they get groups relatively easy. A hybrid class like Warden shouldn't be put in a box to have to spec for groupability. Having that option is great but so should other options.

Sacrificing 8man utility I should be able to divert that into Soloability or 2-4man options via melee damage having that as a speccable option.. That is my reasoning even without knowing a different class gets that option.

Totally independant to the Warden class not having CC, only ranged interrupt would be unspecced shortbow, no magic damage the only way to increase viability is through the only outlet wardens have for making a difference in a fight other than healing and that is melee dps.. Cause if your not healing your either just standing there or interrupting which anyone can do even without melee spec

The reason is, in the actual meta gameplay you have in Hibernia 2x druids. 1x bard. 1x Warden -> No DMG but 50% of the party is occupied, now since hib supporter only have mezz and no stun, druids have root (rarely nature druid spec, buff/heal Heal/buff is more common) only single root, the CC becomes tight,

so you need at least 1 Fian, BM or champion with Slam to have a man-stopper melee stun, after that you can now add additional chars -> usual a hibernia party has a tripple caster train in a perfect ideal Mana enchanter with heat debuff, Light-Eldritch or at least hybrid spec, light-menta with mentalism spec for demezz.
so youre effectiv dmg are only 3 caster - if those are disabled you cant deal any dmg -> warden and Tank may do an own duo train, but the dmg is too low even a classic friar with bad heal could heal enough to save theire party mate.... 1.25-1.35 tank dps is not enough to take something down. A - heal specced warden deals around 90-100dmg per strike with dmg add.. its nothing on dmg even if they spec a bit more into melee like 39 they would make 130-150dmg per strike depending on swingspeed. which is nothing. - every mid supporter with a 2-handed weapon and celerity surpasses that dmg on auto-hit no joke.(with similar caped sc)
so a Warden is total reduced to singel heals and cures, interrupting caster or supporter in melee+sidesnareing, sometimes TW or Anger of God RA (This is optional when the Warden becomes high RR like 6l0+) you need DET CAP, Purge, TW, Serenity/mcl to have mana sustain for Bubble, group instant heal ra.
You have High RR Wardens that may be OP - but arent a lot of chars OP when they reach RR 7 + compared to chars with low RR like 4Lx ??
He cannot guard, intercept, block, stun, group spec-heal / group cure, cannot deal dmg (serious dmg), he has low HP Warden are not very though against cast DD's unless its something from his resistence buff line, auto-bladeturn is nice but weak against dual wield / fast 1 hand weapon strikes.....

EDIT: The resistance are mandatory against Mezz, Stun, and DMG (sorc, cabalist, healer, spiritmaster) -Thats the No.1 reason while hib groups need them.(if druid had this resistance there wont be any reason to take a warden with you)

Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:36 PM by cuuchulain79

Wait...hibs decide to run with 4 naturalists...but then the GRP lacks DPS...so the staff should up warden DPS?

How about if you want more DPS, run a DPS class?

Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:38 PM by Milchschnidde

cuuchulain79 wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:36 PM
Wait...hibs decide to run with 4 naturalists...but then the GRP lacks DPS...so the staff should up warden DPS?

How about if you want more DPS, run a DPS class?

The resistance are mandatory against Mezz, Stun, and DMG (sorc, cabalist, healer, spiritmaster) -Thats the No.1 reason while hib groups need them. (if druid had this resistance there wont be any reason to take a warden with you)+

Healer and Clerics got them in Buff-Line thats the reason why no other realm miss them in any setup.

Edit: You miss other possibilitys to avoid any CC, even if most realms complain against Hibernia, but Hibs do have the least CC of all realms, (baseline stun is a joke in duration) Primary caster have no root, they have less pets (grey druid pets are a joke and mentalist charm may vary its not common), Ani is the worst pet class when it comes to roaming RvR Pets are very vulnarable against any kind of CC. ( i do not talk about the possiblity of dealing dmg)

Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:43 PM by rubaduck

I would love to get cure NS on the warden. Don't need more damage as the warden only needs the level 10 blade style anyways.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:08 AM by Bradekes

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:43 PM
I would love to get cure NS on the warden. Don't need more damage as the warden only needs the level 10 blade style anyways.

Some people would be happy speccing beyond 10 blades and being viable.. No ones knocking your desire to be a PBT bot with heals... But raising weapon damage won't infringe on your desires to run support now will it?

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:10 AM by rubaduck

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:08 AM
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:43 PM
I would love to get cure NS on the warden. Don't need more damage as the warden only needs the level 10 blade style anyways.

Some people would be happy speccing beyond 10 blades and being viable.. No ones knocking your desire to be a PBT bot with heals... But raising weapon damage won't infringe on your desires to run support now will it?

It won't hurt me, no. But why not play a BM or Hero instead if you want damage?

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:14 AM by Bradekes

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:10 AM
It won't hurt me, no. But why not play a BM or Hero instead if you want damage?

Why not roll bard or druid if you want to support? Instead of Thane why not roll a caster if you wanna cast spells? If you wanna play melee ranger why not roll a nightshade? Why increase melee damage on paladin or friar they're not designed for dps?

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:53 AM by rubaduck

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:14 AM
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:10 AM
It won't hurt me, no. But why not play a BM or Hero instead if you want damage?

Why not roll bard or druid if you want to support? Instead of Thane why not roll a caster if you wanna cast spells? If you wanna play melee ranger why not roll a nightshade? Why increase melee damage on paladin or friar they're not designed for dps?

Good questions.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:00 AM by

Uthred

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:44 AM
There are no plans on changing the warden. It is one of the strongest classes on Phoenix and doesnt need any further buffs.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:53 AM by Milchschnidde

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:00 AM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:44 AM
There are no plans on changing the warden. It is one of the strongest classes on Phoenix and doesnt need any further buffs.

How does that fit?

Wed 27 Mar 2019 10:27 AM by Bradekes

Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:53 AM
How does that fit?

PBT taken way out of proportion... If it blocked spells I'd agree... But that's just a silly statement by Uthred lol...

Both other PBT classes get full damage and CC.. Thuergist has one of the highest damage, mezz, stuns, roots, snares... Better damage add and realm haste buff with run speed...

But it's okay warden have heals you know that's why they're so strong...

Wed 27 Mar 2019 10:30 AM by

Uthred

No, it is not a silly statement. It is a fact. Wardens will not be changed.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 10:32 AM by Bradekes

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 10:30 AM
No, it is not a silly statement. It is a fact. Wardens will not be changed.

Well I appreciate the reply. Warden are strong as a support and that's that I figure! Fair enough

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:28 PM by Milchschnidde

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 10:30 AM
No, it is not a silly statement. It is a fact. Wardens will not be changed.

If druids would have the body, energy and spirit resistance there wont be any reason to take a warden to party - thats also a fact and has nothing to do with how he potiential performs. (compared to a friar who had decend dmg and heat resistance against hib caster).

Warden: low dmg
Friar: decent dmg
Warden: resistances
friar: resistances
Warden: TW RA
friar: Static tempest RA
Warden: Bladeturn
Friar: Heal over time
Now a Friar deals decent dmg and heals decent compared to a warden who only heals decent and deals no dmg.

You imbued the Friar because the albs complained all day and where not aware enough how to play theire class.
Now you limit the Warden absolute to healing spec, you could remove the weapon skilld because nobody would ever take a melee specced warden into party in the current meta.
The simply fact: its not about the bladeturn(thats just a bonus), its all about theresistences
Playing the Warden is the choice between
pest and cholera in terms of skilling. You choose Pest because its in total more value then his melee skills - thats all.
Its the same on the Bard no Bard would ever skill regrowth over 33, because of the minimum of 37 into music for mezz and 43 in nurture. (his melee talents are absurde too) nobody would take a bard in to group without speed 5 and decent mezz.

You gave the Friar a decent freedom to choose how to play for the Party. -> thats the main purpose what i wanted to tell you. For Warden there only exists one META build. Thats all i want to make here as statemate, same for Bards and some other classes.
Having a second Warden in the Group has 0 contribution, because he has no DMG and CC.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:41 PM by Ashenspire

Wardens don't need more offense. They're a very defensive class even without shield spec.

They're invited to groups for PBT, resists, heals, buffs and peels. Every group wants a Warden. The sheer survivability they add just by existing in the group is nuts.

Friars got all these buffs you are complaining about and they STILL aren't good enough to take a spot from another class.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 4:37 PM by Sym

Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:28 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 10:30 AM
No, it is not a silly statement. It is a fact. Wardens will not be changed.

If druids would have the body, energy and spirit resistance there wont be any reason to take a warden to party - thats also a fact and has nothing to do with how he potiential performs. (compared to a friar who had decend dmg and heat resistance against hib caster).

Warden: low dmg
Friar: decent dmg
Warden: resistances
friar: resistances
Warden: TW RA
friar: Static tempest RA
Warden: Bladeturn
Friar: Heal over time
Now a Friar deals decent dmg and heals decent compared to a warden who only heals decent and deals no dmg.

You imbued the Friar because the albs complained all day and where not aware enough how to play theire class.
Now you limit the Warden absolute to healing spec, you could remove the weapon skilld because nobody would ever take a melee specced warden into party in the current meta.
The simply fact: its not about the bladeturn(thats just a bonus), its all about theresistences
Playing the Warden is the choice between
pest and cholera in terms of skilling. You choose Pest because its in total more value then his melee skills - thats all.
Its the same on the Bard no Bard would ever skill regrowth over 33, because of the minimum of 37 into music for mezz and 43 in nurture. (his melee talents are absurde too) nobody would take a bard in to group without speed 5 and decent mezz.

You gave the Friar a decent freedom to choose how to play for the Party. -> thats the main purpose what i wanted to tell you. For Warden there only exists one META build. Thats all i want to make here as statemate, same for Bards and some other classes.
Having a second Warden in the Group has 0 contribution, because he has no DMG and CC.

Friar does decent damages when he spec Staff above 34+ with at least 45 in enhanc (to get his red d/q buff), which means he won't be able to get his poor "high" levels single target heals which will make him oom in 4 spells anyways. Even when high spec'd in staff, he will still remain a poor peeler compared to an Arms/Merc, or even a Reaver.
No one will want a melee Friar in his 8 man setup as the absolute melee class to get, you should stop to try to make your guesses a reality because you dream way too much and it's hilarious to read. Friars currently gets invite in groups (if you're lucky and have friends) when they're both high rejuv/enhanc spece'd, which means a very low staff line, and therefore even worse when it comes to melee.

You dare try to compare a Bladeturn with a HoT, LOL. It says a lot about your lack of knowledge of how bad the HoT actually performs in RvR compared to a bladeturn. I would say even in PvE, in both power consumption over time and utility. Worst possible comparison.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 4:52 PM by noflex

noflex wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 4:46 PM
solo as a warden is rough, I made a firby with +18 str to try and offset some of the low dps.. it didn’t really help as ya I can sustain in a solo fight quite long with red pbt I ultimately end up dieing to pretty much anyone due to lack of dps.

It’s still fun to play but I have more fun on my solo friar since I can actually kill ppl on the friar

Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:13 PM by Bradekes

noflex wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 4:52 PM
solo as a warden is rough, I made a firby with +18 str to try and offset some of the low dps.. it didn’t really help as ya I can sustain in a solo fight quite long with red pbt I ultimately end up dieing to pretty much anyone due to lack of dps.

It’s still fun to play but I have more fun on my solo friar since I can actually kill ppl on the friar

Well I'm just gunna follow suit too.. Rolling a friar instead of considering Warden.. To me I see the gaps easy.. I think it's hard for others to grasp the whole picture..

Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:26 PM by Pirhana7

PingGuy wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:21 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:12 PM
I think a small petition to put warden on same damage table and keep everything else the same. Friar will still have 2h damage bonus 10% and 50% parry penetration still giving friar the edge but help put wardens on par..

I think an argument could be made that PBT already puts Wardens on par, or above Friars, both in class ability and group importance. I mean, I'd love a upgrade to the damage table, I'm just not sure it's needed. And even if it is, it's definitely not a top priority at the moment.

Group wise yes, PBT is much more valuable to a group. But im argueing for melee wardens which are usually solo or duo and aren't taken by groups.

Solo wise...….PBT is a missed attack every 6 seconds, against a fast attacker or Dw that's not much., Now for Friar.... Remember its not just evade 5 (25% evade) that friars have its evade 5 + base dex + spec dex/qui that really lifts it up a lot more. Also facter in that spec dex/qui for their parry which lifts that a lot more than Warden's parry. So 1v1 Friars are stronger defensively and a lot stronger offensively. I just want to see that solo Warden a little stronger when he is by himself.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:32 PM by Ashenspire

Good thing this game isn't balanced around 1v1, though.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:56 PM by Pirhana7

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:00 AM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:44 AM
There are no plans on changing the warden. It is one of the strongest classes on Phoenix and doesnt need any further buffs.

Thanks for the reply and joining in. Kinda sad to see you make that comment.

While I completely agree with that they one of the strongest classes statement, I only agree with it in regards to healer spec Wardens for groups. Melee specced Wardens are a very different story and really struggle 1v1 against most enemies. Through out the life of DAOC Wardens were always known and mostly played as a melee class that was a back up / emergency healer and that's why a lot of people are upset with how they are faring in melee now. We just want Wardens to be competitive in both aspect group and solo melee just like how we see the Friar counter part turning out now. But I wont hold my breath now because it sounds like you guys just want them to be a strong group class which they are.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:06 PM by Pirhana7

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:05 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:53 PM
This only makes sense as the reasoning of balancing friars was to allow them better group options.. The melee on wardens needs buffed to be just as effective as staves that's really not asking much.

The thing is a bit larger than the Friar class buddy; Albion Cold/Heat/Matter resists are provided by Friar
Friar is(was?) so unwanted that this realm happilly runs around without them

Warden has PBT and slam with light healing
Valewalker is more deserving of a buff or rework than the Warden

Warden doesn't have slam, they can't spec shields. while I understand that alb group builds are more limited and friars have a tough time getting that spot this post about Wardens is not about group viability its about the classes in melee which is usually solo and how they fare there. and in that aspect the friar is much much stronger both defensively and offensively.
As for Valewalkers…. they are very strong, people only complain about the anytime style. Everything else about them is strong , especially their positional nd reactionary chains and VWs win most 1v1 and are very strong sn small man skirmishes. in 8v8 they are a very strong DPS, disease proc and back stun make them very wanted in 8mans.

Thu 28 Mar 2019 2:43 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:56 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:00 AM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:44 AM
There are no plans on changing the warden. It is one of the strongest classes on Phoenix and doesnt need any further buffs.

Thanks for the reply and joining in. Kinda sad to see you make that comment.

While I completely agree with that they one of the strongest classes statement, I only agree with it in regards to healer spec Wardens for groups. Melee specced Wardens are a very different story and really struggle 1v1 against most enemies. Through out the life of DAOC Wardens were always known and mostly played as a melee class that was a back up / emergency healer and that's why a lot of people are upset with how they are faring in melee now. We just want Wardens to be competitive in both aspect group and solo melee just like how we see the Friar counter part turning out now. But I wont hold my breath now because it sounds like you guys just want them to be a strong group class which they are.

Not dissing you mate but I'd be interested in what DAoC lifeline you're referring to here. Wardens have never, ever, ever, been known primarily for melee. They've always been known for being a support class primarily/secondary healer and tertiary peeler.

On the flip side. Friars in their original concept were support primary (the majority of their current self buffs were altered to group buffs to make them more desirable in group play, melee/heals secondary/tertiary depending on what the Friar wanted to focus on).

What Live did was attempt to boost wardens offensive capabilities (read recent Live patches, Wardens still struggle to perform melee because, shockingly they weren't designed to be solo) and Friars were adapted to be one of the strongest heal/support classes in game. Obviously Live's directions and decisions haven't panned out too well over the years.

Thu 28 Mar 2019 3:16 PM by Pirhana7

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 2:43 PM
Pirhana7 wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:56 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:00 AM

Thanks for the reply and joining in. Kinda sad to see you make that comment.

While I completely agree with that they one of the strongest classes statement, I only agree with it in regards to healer spec Wardens for groups. Melee specced Wardens are a very different story and really struggle 1v1 against most enemies. Through out the life of DAOC Wardens were always known and mostly played as a melee class that was a back up / emergency healer and that's why a lot of people are upset with how they are faring in melee now. We just want Wardens to be competitive in both aspect group and solo melee just like how we see the Friar counter part turning out now. But I wont hold my breath now because it sounds like you guys just want them to be a strong group class which they are.

Not dissing you mate but I'd be interested in what DAoC lifeline you're referring to here. Wardens have never, ever, ever, been known primarily for melee. They've always been known for being a support class primarily/secondary healer and tertiary peeler.

On the flip side. Friars in their original concept were support primary (the majority of their current self buffs were altered to group buffs to make them more desirable in group play, melee/heals secondary/tertiary depending on what the Friar wanted to focus on).

What Live did was attempt to boost wardens offensive capabilities (read recent Live patches, Wardens still struggle to perform melee because, shockingly they weren't designed to be solo) and Friars were adapted to be one of the strongest heal/support classes in game. Obviously Live's directions and decisions haven't panned out too well over the years.

Well, back in the day from SI to along way down the road when Wardens got the spec upgrade and beyond I got to play with some good melee Wardens. But even before the upgrade and before TOA our 8man ran a melee warden, Bard, Dru, Dru, Ward, VW, Hero, BM,BM. We has 2 assist trains, VW, BM and Hero, BM If mezz landed good the Warden would assist one of the melee trains, if we did not intiate mezz the Warden would basically stick to an enemy caster or healer taking them out of the fight. He was great at taking Theurgs and Mid healers out of fights. He was like a buzz saw and would kill his targets by himself since no one else was able to heal. he was also good at stopping and getting heals off to save our bard and druids when they got in trouble. 1v1 he won most fights, but he always lost to merc, savages, and zerkers. Friars were tough, and INF, SB would win if they landed perf. I went out with my NS a few times and had some fun duos with him too.

Thu 28 Mar 2019 4:53 PM by Bradekes

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 2:43 PM
Not dissing you mate but I'd be interested in what DAoC lifeline you're referring to here. Wardens have never, ever, ever, been known primarily for melee. They've always been known for being a support class primarily/secondary healer and tertiary peeler.

On the flip side. Friars in their original concept were support primary (the majority of their current self buffs were altered to group buffs to make them more desirable in group play, melee/heals secondary/tertiary depending on what the Friar wanted to focus on).

What Live did was attempt to boost wardens offensive capabilities (read recent Live patches, Wardens still struggle to perform melee because, shockingly they weren't designed to be solo) and Friars were adapted to be one of the strongest heal/support classes in game. Obviously Live's directions and decisions haven't panned out too well over the years.

Warden never had giant melee dps.. But they had a lot more melee mitigation than they do here.. They got celerity which was a direct DPS boost vs haste indirect dps boost.. They also got heal procs.. They were known for tanking too melee they were very hard to kill with a BM bodyguarding you and you guarding the BM..

A lot of dps came from traitors dagger if you remember that weapon... Wardens had a good setup using battlemaster styles.. Here they are support no goodies making them shine in any other role

Thu 28 Mar 2019 6:15 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 4:53 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 2:43 PM
Not dissing you mate but I'd be interested in what DAoC lifeline you're referring to here. Wardens have never, ever, ever, been known primarily for melee. They've always been known for being a support class primarily/secondary healer and tertiary peeler.

On the flip side. Friars in their original concept were support primary (the majority of their current self buffs were altered to group buffs to make them more desirable in group play, melee/heals secondary/tertiary depending on what the Friar wanted to focus on).

What Live did was attempt to boost wardens offensive capabilities (read recent Live patches, Wardens still struggle to perform melee because, shockingly they weren't designed to be solo) and Friars were adapted to be one of the strongest heal/support classes in game. Obviously Live's directions and decisions haven't panned out too well over the years.

Warden never had giant melee dps.. But they had a lot more melee mitigation than they do here.. They got celerity which was a direct DPS boost vs haste indirect dps boost.. They also got heal procs.. They were known for tanking too melee they were very hard to kill with a BM bodyguarding you and you guarding the BM..

A lot of dps came from traitors dagger if you remember that weapon... Wardens had a good setup using battlemaster styles.. Here they are support no goodies making them shine in any other role

Oh yeah, I toyed around with a melee warden on Live when they had blade styles revamped. They're fun to mess around with but they should hardly be considered a primary melee toon.

I too also remember the original vampiric mists from traitors dagger combined with essence flames lol #Monsters

Thu 28 Mar 2019 8:54 PM by Bradekes

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 6:15 PM
They're fun to mess around with but they should hardly be considered a primary melee toon.

I'm going to have to slightly disagree with you on that point.. After Warden received shield spec and more spec points I never remember seeing support main spec on warden.

The reason weapon spec may have still been on the low end is that the DPS of an endgame Warden wasn't highly affected by high weapon spec seeings Warden kinda hit like a baby... If warden would have seen higher results from speccing in weapon they would have..

Celerity, unique procs, and battlemaster styles made up for lower spec and that meant they could have higher regrowth for endo reduction and higher shield/parry for defense without really sacraficing DPS or melee effectiveness...

Thu 28 Mar 2019 10:22 PM by Milchschnidde

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 8:54 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 6:15 PM
They're fun to mess around with but they should hardly be considered a primary melee toon.
I'm going to have to slightly disagree with you on that point.. After Warden received shield spec and more spec points I never remember seeing support main spec on warden.

The reason weapon spec may have still been on the low end is that the DPS of an endgame Warden wasn't highly affected by high weapon spec seeings Warden kinda hit like a baby... If warden would have seen higher results from speccing in weapon they would have..

Celerity, unique procs, and battlemaster styles made up for lower spec and that meant they could have higher regrowth for endo reduction and higher shield/parry for defense without really sacraficing DPS or melee effectiveness...

The Devs could easy impliment a higher DELVE of Melee weapon when a warden passes 30+ into Weapon skill (he gets into hybrid table). So it wont boost healer warden, just Warden who realy spec into melee. Most ppl dont want to play warden to play as healer, its a bonus if i want to play a healer i prefer a druid.

The classic aspect is missing. I remember 39 blades 16/20 healing, buffing and a few drops into parry. Where he was more of an emergency healer then a full healer.

Fri 29 Mar 2019 8:44 PM by The Skies Asunder

I find it odd that Wardens are being so heavily discussed on the forums. Not so much that they are in general, but that they seem so divisive. Apparently lots of people dislike, or just think Warden is somehow OP, while another large portion of the player base wants them changed. Most of the other classes don't seem to have as many people on such opposite ends of the argument. Personally I was, let's say heart-broken, when I read that Warden was being given a better heal, and not being given increased spec points or shield spec for the launch of Phoenix. I felt for most of DAoC's history that Warden was firstly a melee combatant, and secondarily a healer. They just had a lot of utility, at the cost of having higher damage.

What I don't think is necessary though, is asking for changes specifically because someone else got changes. Warden is certainly in a better place than Friar was previously, and Friar obviously needed some attention. That doesn't mean that we have to always directly compare the two classes in a vacuum, and demand changes that aren't really warranted. I would love for Warden to get shield spec, and 1.8x spec points more than just about anything on this server, but that doesn't mean Warden is as bad as Friar was. We should be thinking of things the class needs, rather than compensation for other changes. The Warden builds currently are okay, they just aren't the Warden I remember most fondly.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:07 AM by mallobean

[attachment=0]sshot026.jpg[/attachment]

Wed 3 Apr 2019 10:24 AM by Bradekes

mallobean wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:07 AM
sshot026.jpg

Can you explain a bit? What is this a picture of?

Wed 3 Apr 2019 1:43 PM by Amp_Phetamine

mallobean wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:07 AM
sshot026.jpg

By the looks of it you attempted to solo on your unbuffed, melee warden? Had two combat styles absorbed by ablatives then got perf'd by an assassin and died.

Wed 3 Apr 2019 2:49 PM by mallobean

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 1:43 PM
mallobean wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 8:07 AM
sshot026.jpg

By the looks of it you attempted to solo on your unbuffed, melee warden? Had two combat styles absorbed by ablatives then got perf'd by an assassin and died.

Yeah, that's pretty much it . I am fairly certain that I had my Warden buffs up though since buffing is what I usually do while waiting go the port timer.

I admittedly have very little experience with a Warden having been a Mid for the vast majority of years I've played but, buffed or unbuffed, I've never had my blows hit for less than nothing. (Lvl 50, 3l3) I guess I'm confused. Is this to be expected?

Wed 3 Apr 2019 4:30 PM by Bradekes

mallobean wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 2:49 PM
I admittedly have very little experience with a Warden having been a Mid for the vast majority of years I've played but, buffed or unbuffed, I've never had my blows hit for less than nothing. (Lvl 50, 3l3) I guess I'm confused. Is this to be expected?

So I made a warden because of this thread... He is 39blades 47 nurture 20 regrowth 14parry.. I also have him fully templated with 22% being his lowest resist all stats and skills capped.. Spec AF charges on his gear cause they're cheaper.. Running the Galla 4.4 sword w/ablative proc..

So far he is pretty beasty but I have never had a good 1vs1 with him.. That proc goes off about ever4-5hits on his sword.. Got his attack speed to about 1.7/s.. He his about 90-140 depending on the target... I honestly think the only thing that makes him at all strong is that ablative proc otherwise he'd be gimpy.. I was able to tank 3 skalds when i was 49 two being yellow one oj they killed me but I got obe of the yellows to 10% health.. Keep in mind warden get 24%body resist buff so that's veey helpful for skald..

The biggest problem I have faced is that warden are way too easily kited and people can pretty much just walk away from 1vs1 fights lol.. Playing warden feels like playing Super Smash Bros using the paper beater while having mario invincible star on..

Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:27 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 4:30 PM
mallobean wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Apr 2019 2:49 PM
I admittedly have very little experience with a Warden having been a Mid for the vast majority of years I've played but, buffed or unbuffed, I've never had my blows hit for less than nothing. (Lvl 50, 3l3) I guess I'm confused. Is this to be expected?

So I made a warden because of this thread... He is 39blades 47 nurture 20 regrowth 14parry.. I also have him fully templated with 22% being his lowest resist all stats and skills capped.. Spec AF charges on his gear cause they're cheaper.. Running the Galla 4.4 sword w/ablative proc..

So far he is pretty beasty but I have never had a good 1vs1 with him.. That proc goes off about ever4-5hits on his sword.. Got his attack speed to about 1.7/s.. He his about 90-140 depending on the target... I honestly think the only thing that makes him at all strong is that ablative proc otherwise he'd be gimpy.. I was able to tank 3 skalds when i was 49 two being yellow one oj they killed me but I got obe of the yellows to 10% health.. Keep in mind warden get 24%body resist buff so that's veey helpful for skald..

The biggest problem I have faced is that warden are way too easily kited and people can pretty much just walk away from 1vs1 fights lol.. Playing warden feels like playing Super Smash Bros using the paper beater while having mario invincible star on..

Don't you have access to speed pulse Bradekes (paragons encouragement)? Of course it wouldn't help you catching up to a skald, but against non-skalds you should be able to kite them yourself and pop a few major restorations before re-engaging. Other then that sounds like you could have some decent fun on that Warden. It would definitely take a bit longer to kill but rotating the str/con debuff sword with a DoT application sword could definitely help supplement some dps.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 7:33 PM by Bradekes

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:27 PM
Don't you have access to speed pulse Bradekes (paragons encouragement)? Of course it wouldn't help you catching up to a skald, but against non-skalds you should be able to kite them yourself and pop a few major restorations before re-engaging. Other then that sounds like you could have some decent fun on that Warden. It would definitely take a bit longer to kill but rotating the str/con debuff sword with a DoT application sword could definitely help supplement some dps.

I do have speed chant but it's casted not instant all anyone has to do is snare me or disease me and run away lol.. Sure i can cast cure and speed but by that time usually they've either made it to the zerg or have stealthed or gained their own movement speed.. Other classes can also interrupt my heals or spells easy with ranged attacks or whayever.. Warden don't have any form of usable ranged to do tgat themselves..

Also I died to a single skald whi was using S/S and haste debuff from hammer.. His dps was shit but he was parrying at 30% and blocking at 10% so my crap dmg was just not enough..

I gotta use my current sword for resists and ablative or I would take too much dmg more than I would gain from dd or dot procs

Thu 4 Apr 2019 7:37 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 7:33 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:27 PM
Don't you have access to speed pulse Bradekes (paragons encouragement)? Of course it wouldn't help you catching up to a skald, but against non-skalds you should be able to kite them yourself and pop a few major restorations before re-engaging. Other then that sounds like you could have some decent fun on that Warden. It would definitely take a bit longer to kill but rotating the str/con debuff sword with a DoT application sword could definitely help supplement some dps.

I do have speed chant but it's casted not instant all anyone has to do is snare me or disease me and run away lol.. Sure i can cast cure and speed but by that time usually they've either made it to the zerg or have stealthed or gained their own movement speed.. Other classes can also interrupt my heals or spells easy with ranged attacks or whayever.. Warden don't have any form of usable ranged to do tgat themselves..

Also I died to a single skald whi was using S/S and haste debuff from hammer.. His dps was shit but he was parrying at 30% and blocking at 10% so my crap dmg was just not enough..

I gotta use my current sword for resists and ablative or I would take too much dmg more than I would gain from dd or dot procs

Ahh that was my mistake! Yeah there isn't gonna be much kiting in that regards then. Skalds are a PITA. There are a few that I struggle against on my Merc, although I ripped Dax about a week ago xD.