Wellzy wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 3:24 PMnaw.
I enjoy not getting rolled by 3-4 fg's when ever I want to fight a 1v1.
As long as the zerg exists, vanish is the best RA for stealthers. Keeps it fair.
You have safety in numbers. I have safety in a 15 min cooldown RA that gets me no rps.
Wellzy wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 3:24 PMnaw.
I enjoy not getting rolled by 3-4 fg's when ever I want to fight a 1v1.
As long as the zerg exists, vanish is the best RA for stealthers. Keeps it fair.
You have safety in numbers. I have safety in a 15 min cooldown RA that gets me no rps.
Aenea wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 4:47 PMYou mean picking a soft target who is running with a hastener speed just behind a fg and killing him then vanishing with no consequences? That sounds about right.
relvinian wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 4:42 PMI solo visible with no speed so i don't feel too much sympathy.
Vanish lets you kill someone in front of fg and escape.
Vanish lets you escape one v one.
And as already demonstrated, stealthers already have advantages.
phixion wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 5:44 PMrelvinian wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 4:42 PMI solo visible with no speed so i don't feel too much sympathy.
Vanish lets you kill someone in front of fg and escape.
Vanish lets you escape one v one.
And as already demonstrated, stealthers already have advantages.
YOU PLAY A NECRO FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. LMAO
You are playing the most overpowered class in the game and you're complaining that you can't kill duos? WAKE UP dude, not many people can take duos. You talk about vanish being an "i win" button, but Necro as a whole is an "i win" button. I can't believe someone so vocal about balance actually plays that pathetic excuse for a class with a clear conscience.
Without vanish I would die EVERY TIME i jumped someone, simply because this task system encourages zerging and nobody goes in to non-task zones anymore. I got bored sitting in emain waiting for action.
Removing vanish would just destroy stealthers, being able to get away once every 15 minutes is fair IMO, and you aren't even safe when you vanish - i've been nuked out plenty of times.
Nydig wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 6:10 PMIts funny i never once speced vanish on my rr10 sb on live. Always saw it as a waste since it was so easy to find anyone who used it after the fact and collect free rps on both other stealthers and visi.
Here though i have yet to find a single person after they use it both on my sb and my zerk i have at 50. Which gets really old really fast when out on the zerk and the only 1v1s i can ever find are vs assassins and 9 times out of 10 they vanish leaving you at low health with a 2 min disease. Which of course keeps you at low health for a 2nd assassin who was near by and collect free rps while the first one gets a big chunk of because of his earlier dmg.
So yeah its pretty damn annoying as is. However, if its going to be kept as is at least make it so its actually possible to find assassins in stealth sometimes.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 6:48 PMNydig wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 6:10 PMIts funny i never once speced vanish on my rr10 sb on live. Always saw it as a waste since it was so easy to find anyone who used it after the fact and collect free rps on both other stealthers and visi.
Here though i have yet to find a single person after they use it both on my sb and my zerk i have at 50. Which gets really old really fast when out on the zerk and the only 1v1s i can ever find are vs assassins and 9 times out of 10 they vanish leaving you at low health with a 2 min disease. Which of course keeps you at low health for a 2nd assassin who was near by and collect free rps while the first one gets a big chunk of because of his earlier dmg.
So yeah its pretty damn annoying as is. However, if its going to be kept as is at least make it so its actually possible to find assassins in stealth sometimes.
On live Mastery of Stealth was a counter to Vanish if the Assassin wasn't smart or lucky enough to get out of the MOS detect range in time.
Nydig wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 7:12 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 6:48 PMNydig wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 6:10 PMIts funny i never once speced vanish on my rr10 sb on live. Always saw it as a waste since it was so easy to find anyone who used it after the fact and collect free rps on both other stealthers and visi.
Here though i have yet to find a single person after they use it both on my sb and my zerk i have at 50. Which gets really old really fast when out on the zerk and the only 1v1s i can ever find are vs assassins and 9 times out of 10 they vanish leaving you at low health with a 2 min disease. Which of course keeps you at low health for a 2nd assassin who was near by and collect free rps while the first one gets a big chunk of because of his earlier dmg.
So yeah its pretty damn annoying as is. However, if its going to be kept as is at least make it so its actually possible to find assassins in stealth sometimes.
On live Mastery of Stealth was a counter to Vanish if the Assassin wasn't smart or lucky enough to get out of the MOS detect range in time.
Yup, but i played a lot of visi as well with no MoS and still found people constantly just because people tend to use vanish at low hp so they move slower and the stealth detect range on this server just feels like its not even a thing. That was without stealthlore as well.
defiasbandit wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 8:19 PMRank 1 vanish is totally op. 5 ra points and you can dip out of a fight?
Wellzy wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 9:05 PMReally the complains come down to this:
Visi doesnt get Free rps off a stealther when they add on their fights because of vanish.
This whole killing someone in a full grp and vanishing thing never happens. Can't kill the person fast enough before you are stunned and mezzed etc.
Ppl saying this is a thing have probably never seen it themselves. It's a theory.
If you've picked a good range and you get nearsighted just run away. You got to "pick your fight" by choosing a range that appeared safe. If it's two groups fighting they are probably going to far to busy with each other to chase a fleeing archer. I hear you even have a speed boost for that.Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 9:34 PMWellzy wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 9:05 PMReally the complains come down to this:
Visi doesnt get Free rps off a stealther when they add on their fights because of vanish.
This whole killing someone in a full grp and vanishing thing never happens. Can't kill the person fast enough before you are stunned and mezzed etc.
Ppl saying this is a thing have probably never seen it themselves. It's a theory.
There should be consequences for "adding" on to a fight. Archers that "add" are nearsighted then stunned/mezzed and then die. No vanish. Consequences.
, even when grouped (exceptions being an in-range guard bot, SM pet, etc).Quik wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 9:53 PMYeah I personally find ANY ability that lets you simply disengage and walk away if you do poorly even if it is on a 15 minute timer bad for the game.
You go into RvR you should deal with the consequences.
plus you can't tell me that there aren't assassins that literally wait for Vanish to repop before engaging someone again.
I'm not just talking about Vanish, if there is ANY ability that lets you escape it should be dropped immediately.
This game is all about attacks and counterattacks, literally every class has special skills and that skill has a counter skill.
Vanish is the only one I can think of that has no counter skill to stop. Yes I understand pets are still able to attack someone that vanishes but from what I understand that is because of a bug with the pet not having a second cast check, but normally there is no counter play.
I don't like any skill with no countering ability.
djegu wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 10:11 PMLot of misconception about Vanish and stealther class in general, actually i don't understand people that complain that much. I mean i could complain all day about OP BD, Necro, Mins, Savage, Hib amnesia, hib stun, sorc etc. etc.
But no, let's complain about one of the hardest class on the game.
You know what ? Go reroll a stealth make it 50, temp it and go try out there, that's the first thing you should do before coming and complain about something you have no clue at all.
Dimir wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 9:47 PMIf you've picked a good range and you get nearsighted just run away. You got to "pick your fight" by choosing a range that appeared safe. If it's two groups fighting they are probably going to far to busy with each other to chase a fleeing archer. I hear you even have a speed boost for that.Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 9:34 PMWellzy wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 9:05 PMReally the complains come down to this:
Visi doesnt get Free rps off a stealther when they add on their fights because of vanish.
This whole killing someone in a full grp and vanishing thing never happens. Can't kill the person fast enough before you are stunned and mezzed etc.
Ppl saying this is a thing have probably never seen it themselves. It's a theory.
There should be consequences for "adding" on to a fight. Archers that "add" are nearsighted then stunned/mezzed and then die. No vanish. Consequences.
An assassin has to be IN the fight to add, and that's a huge risk right there. 90% of the time you will be slammed or stunned and die immediately. If you can blow purge and then vanish instantly you might escape, assuming your HP hasn't dropped enough to make you crawl. Blowing all these cooldowns seems like plenty of consequence to me. Especially since you are probably not getting any RPs out of it (surprise, it's hard to kill grouped people being healed with real buffs).
defiasbandit wrote: ↑Wed 20 Feb 2019 2:32 AMThe biggest issue with Assassins is the way stealth detection works on this server. It basically doesn't if you have a stealthed level 50 asssassin nearby. Assassin stealth should be severly nerfed. That way you can actually have a chance to see them nearby and dodge their opener.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 20 Feb 2019 2:55 AMI like the earlier suggestion that Vanish is usable only within a few seconds of a successful kill. That way Vanish rewards the gameplay that it was intended for and removes the annoying/OP'ed aspect of it.
relvinian wrote: Earlier i was next to a blue wizard in emain as he ran down the path from apk. I mean right next to him.
I was watching for the pa which came, and it came.
So i attacked,
Vanish. Gone. NOTHING i could do.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 11:17 PMDimir wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 9:47 PMIf you've picked a good range and you get nearsighted just run away. You got to "pick your fight" by choosing a range that appeared safe. If it's two groups fighting they are probably going to far to busy with each other to chase a fleeing archer. I hear you even have a speed boost for that.Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 9:34 PMThere should be consequences for "adding" on to a fight. Archers that "add" are nearsighted then stunned/mezzed and then die. No vanish. Consequences.
An assassin has to be IN the fight to add, and that's a huge risk right there. 90% of the time you will be slammed or stunned and die immediately. If you can blow purge and then vanish instantly you might escape, assuming your HP hasn't dropped enough to make you crawl. Blowing all these cooldowns seems like plenty of consequence to me. Especially since you are probably not getting any RPs out of it (surprise, it's hard to kill grouped people being healed with real buffs).
Any Archer that engages at max bow range is an idiot. Targets simply run out of range and they will only get 1 arrow into them. 2 if they are not paying attention.
The skill in Archery is picking a median range that you can either a) kill the target before he runs out of max range or b) be able to get enough arrows into him before he closes the distance between the two of you, giving you a chance to finish him off with melee. This is further complicated with classes that have a) instas to interrupt you and b) pet classes that can interrupt you.
Firing at max range doesn't allow the Archer to peel off, it allows the target to peel off
Vanish has no purpose for the outcome of the fight, except you can't lose. That's the whole point, it is just a really poorly designed ra. Why not give everyone an ra like that, and noone does rp anymore. How fun would that be.Cwtch wrote: ↑Wed 20 Feb 2019 3:10 PMLets ALSO remove Skalds Insta Mezz .... Mincers Insta Stun (leading to a Mezz) .... L;ets also Remove Hibs Baseline Stun..Lets Remove Mercs Dirty Tricks...
Afuldan wrote: ↑Wed 20 Feb 2019 3:57 PMThe real problem is the MoS baked into Stealth spec. It prevents a low RR from getting high MoS to pop other assassins for visis, it prevents archers from having a snowballs chance in hell on seeing a sin, it also allows vanish to become fairly powerful due to having MoS7 baked into your stealth spec, due to the reduce chance of visis seeing you.
This frees up a lot of RA’s for assassins to get Vanish/Viper/Purge etc very fast. They don’t have to spec MoS at all to be able to land PA, so they are getting defensive RA’s instead.
Take MoS out of stealth spec, make it a RA for assassins/archers and Vanish will become much less of a problem. There is no way currently to counter it. A high melee spec archer with max MoS and a stealth lore pot used to be the way to find Vanished sins. Can’t do that with every sin and archer having the same MoS. I don’t think any sin will drop Stealth below 35, and the freed up RA points from not having to get MoS5/6/7/etc are allowing sins to get Vanish very early.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 20 Feb 2019 5:58 PMAfuldan wrote: ↑Wed 20 Feb 2019 3:57 PMThe real problem is the MoS baked into Stealth spec. It prevents a low RR from getting high MoS to pop other assassins for visis, it prevents archers from having a snowballs chance in hell on seeing a sin, it also allows vanish to become fairly powerful due to having MoS7 baked into your stealth spec, due to the reduce chance of visis seeing you.
This frees up a lot of RA’s for assassins to get Vanish/Viper/Purge etc very fast. They don’t have to spec MoS at all to be able to land PA, so they are getting defensive RA’s instead.
Take MoS out of stealth spec, make it a RA for assassins/archers and Vanish will become much less of a problem. There is no way currently to counter it. A high melee spec archer with max MoS and a stealth lore pot used to be the way to find Vanished sins. Can’t do that with every sin and archer having the same MoS. I don’t think any sin will drop Stealth below 35, and the freed up RA points from not having to get MoS5/6/7/etc are allowing sins to get Vanish very early.
Every point nailed on the head here. This is exactly why Assassins are a problem on Phoenix and not on Live.
most of those things you compared with vanish can get resistet or purged tho, vanish not, its a different story but as long as death means 10mins running back and you have to use buff charges again vanish is fine in my book and so is sosCwtch wrote: ↑Wed 20 Feb 2019 3:10 PMLets ALSO remove Skalds Insta Mezz .... Mincers Insta Stun (leading to a Mezz) .... L;ets also Remove Hibs Baseline Stun..Lets Remove Mercs Dirty Tricks...
these are Skills that can change the tide of a fight massively in favour of the one with any of the above skills (and more i could mention) .. so lets remove them
the amount of times ive been bashing a Skald .. and he was going to lose the fight for him to insta mezz and run away.... is unreal... its just as lame as vanishing when about to lose or get rolled... (waits for ppl to say buy purge... it aint always up).
Same id imagine for mids/hibs fighting mincers.. how many times have you been insta stunned and then mzz'd for him to run off when u was about to claim his rps?
hib casters the same.. winning the fight... QC "FREE" 9s stun and pboe or nuke u down within that time frame.. (be easier swallow if they had to spec for it)
i know many of you will try justify in a different manner how the above is fine (yet vanish isnt) or will spout stuff about purge bleh bleh..
the moral of the story is... a lot of classes have skills.. spells or RAs that can determine a fight or Save a fight...moaning because you didnt kill a specific stealther because he vanished it a bit moany...
im guessing those who moan so much about vanish.. are the mainly same people who are saying a massive NO-NO to Speed of thre Hunt Bp pots... cos you know soloers may be able to escape you zerging them down as a trio-Smallman-zerg etc etc.. basiclly the soloer has no chance to escape at all. so easy free rps to any groups..
Isavyr wrote: ↑Wed 20 Feb 2019 7:05 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 20 Feb 2019 5:58 PMAfuldan wrote: ↑Wed 20 Feb 2019 3:57 PMThe real problem is the MoS baked into Stealth spec. It prevents a low RR from getting high MoS to pop other assassins for visis, it prevents archers from having a snowballs chance in hell on seeing a sin, it also allows vanish to become fairly powerful due to having MoS7 baked into your stealth spec, due to the reduce chance of visis seeing you.
This frees up a lot of RA’s for assassins to get Vanish/Viper/Purge etc very fast. They don’t have to spec MoS at all to be able to land PA, so they are getting defensive RA’s instead.
Take MoS out of stealth spec, make it a RA for assassins/archers and Vanish will become much less of a problem. There is no way currently to counter it. A high melee spec archer with max MoS and a stealth lore pot used to be the way to find Vanished sins. Can’t do that with every sin and archer having the same MoS. I don’t think any sin will drop Stealth below 35, and the freed up RA points from not having to get MoS5/6/7/etc are allowing sins to get Vanish very early.
Every point nailed on the head here. This is exactly why Assassins are a problem on Phoenix and not on Live.
You both should know better--RR won't help with MoS. You either have the base spec, or you don't, as the MoS comes from base spec and not composite. It's a bit of the opposite, apparently. A RR10 assassin may get lower base stealth because the RR bonus will guarantee max composite stealth, and therefore have WORSE MoS than a low level stealther.
Archers have a hard time seeing assassins--that's hard coded and at best MoS will only mitigate that--not resolve it.
My opinion is the top tiers of stealth need to be significantly better to allow all stealthers, but particularly archers, the chance to hide from assassins at a loss of their melee capability.
Come on - you solo as a necro you’re asking for it. But 1 and 2v1 (3v1) against melee you’re invincible. But most of the time you’re camping keeps throwing dots and breaking mez.relvinian wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 5:05 PMI have died so many times as a visible solo without your get out of jail free card.
I mean stealth is already that this is ridiculous.
So many unbeatable duos out there vs me. Bard/chanter, skald+bd, etc, etc, etc.
You know how many times i have been mez, stun, wtfpowned?
Stealthers are not supposed to be have an I-win button.
dante`afk wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 2:20 AMmake vanish not useable with less than 1 enemy player is around.
Isavyr wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:48 PMCould also apply stealth debuff in proportion to missing health. So if they duck out of a fight at last minute, they are very likely to get found again, but if they're relatively healthy, they will be safe.
florin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:31 PMIsavyr wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:48 PMCould also apply stealth debuff in proportion to missing health. So if they duck out of a fight at last minute, they are very likely to get found again, but if they're relatively healthy, they will be safe.
This happens with the snare caused by low health
Isavyr wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:34 PMflorin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:31 PMIsavyr wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 3:48 PMCould also apply stealth debuff in proportion to missing health. So if they duck out of a fight at last minute, they are very likely to get found again, but if they're relatively healthy, they will be safe.
This happens with the snare caused by low health
I'm thinking moreso, obviously (or so I thought).
For example, -1 to -20 stealth for 15s following vanish depending on user's health being between 75% to 0% health.
defiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:37 PM
Stealth detection is a joke on this server. The way you balance Assassins is to reduce stealth, so players can actually dodge PA. They are near impossible to detect here, then can vanish also.
florin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:41 PMdefiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:37 PMflorin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:32 PMNext you'll say reduce PA damage..from 2h norse sbs when your shields are down.
Stealth detection is a joke on this server. The way you balance Assassins is to reduce stealth, so players can actually dodge PA. They are near impossible to detect here, then can vanish also.
I can tell you that on most days, with the numbers who zerg, I see stealthers being popped by players.. those who look for stealthers and understand the mechanics..ie don't use speed 6, walk, use pbaoe, check the walls, check around the mile gates. Ive been walked over planty of times, some dont see me, some do. Some times i can take evasive measures, other times not. Stealth detection is broken..but compared to other servers, I get seen too easy, by mobs and by players...have been popped by grey mobs before, and guards/mobs see through vanish.
defiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:44 PMflorin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:41 PMdefiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:37 PMStealth detection is a joke on this server. The way you balance Assassins is to reduce stealth, so players can actually dodge PA. They are near impossible to detect here, then can vanish also.
I can tell you that on most days, with the numbers who zerg, I see stealthers being popped by players.. those who look for stealthers and understand the mechanics..ie don't use speed 6, walk, use pbaoe, check the walls, check around the mile gates. Ive been walked over planty of times, some dont see me, some do. Some times i can take evasive measures, other times not. Stealth detection is broken..but compared to other servers, I get seen too easy, by mobs and by players...have been popped by grey mobs before, and guards/mobs see through vanish.
Nice try. You ever use a stealth lore potion? That is basically how stealth should work in this game. Instead you have like 3 assassins open on you, and you don't see any of them.
florin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:46 PMdefiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:44 PMflorin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:41 PMI can tell you that on most days, with the numbers who zerg, I see stealthers being popped by players.. those who look for stealthers and understand the mechanics..ie don't use speed 6, walk, use pbaoe, check the walls, check around the mile gates. Ive been walked over planty of times, some dont see me, some do. Some times i can take evasive measures, other times not. Stealth detection is broken..but compared to other servers, I get seen too easy, by mobs and by players...have been popped by grey mobs before, and guards/mobs see through vanish.
Nice try. You ever use a stealth lore potion? That is basically how stealth should work in this game. Instead you have like 3 assassins open on you, and you don't see any of them.
Yes, you and I tested them in Odins. Side stuns broke you QC.
defiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:47 PMflorin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:46 PMdefiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:44 PMNice try. You ever use a stealth lore potion? That is basically how stealth should work in this game. Instead you have like 3 assassins open on you, and you don't see any of them.
Yes, you and I tested them in Odins. Side stuns broke you QC.
Using stealth and moving around with it should take more skill, just like dodging a PA at the last second is a skill. Making stealth so strong is largely why assassins are so strong. It makes landing PA too easy.
florin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:49 PMdefiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:47 PM
Using stealth and moving around with it should take more skill, just like dodging a PA at the last second is a skill. Making stealth so strong is largely why assassins are so strong. It makes landing PA too easy.
It's not easy if the opponent doesn't run in a straight line, alt tabbed, afk or chatting. The ones that land them consistently have lots of practice and good timing.
defiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:53 PMflorin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:49 PMdefiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:47 PMUsing stealth and moving around with it should take more skill, just like dodging a PA at the last second is a skill. Making stealth so strong is largely why assassins are so strong. It makes landing PA too easy.
It's not easy if the opponent doesn't run in a straight line, alt tabbed, afk or chatting. The ones that land them consistently have lots of practice and good timing.
You can defend it all you want. Stealth is OP here and the fix is obvious. Its about making RvR be more skillbased, instead free pa free win against some classes.
The rock paper scissors argument is worthless. It is way easier to kill a caster as an assassin, than it is to kill a tank as a caster here. It's imbalanced.
florin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:55 PMdefiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:53 PMflorin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:49 PMIt's not easy if the opponent doesn't run in a straight line, alt tabbed, afk or chatting. The ones that land them consistently have lots of practice and good timing.
You can defend it all you want. Stealth is OP here and the fix is obvious. Its about making RvR be more skillbased, instead free pa free win against some classes.
The rock paper scissors argument is worthless. It is way easier to kill a caster as an assassin, than it is to kill a tank as a caster here. It's imbalanced.
I think youre not grasping that it already is skills based. It's just the skill of the caster is < than the skill of the assassin.
defiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:57 PMflorin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:55 PMdefiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:53 PMYou can defend it all you want. Stealth is OP here and the fix is obvious. Its about making RvR be more skillbased, instead free pa free win against some classes.
The rock paper scissors argument is worthless. It is way easier to kill a caster as an assassin, than it is to kill a tank as a caster here. It's imbalanced.
I think youre not grasping that it already is skills based. It's just the skill of the caster is < than the skill of the assassin.
I know clicking PA and Stun on a caster is such high skill.
Killing casters as an assassin is much easier than killing tanks as a caster. Stealth is totally op here and so is vanish.
florin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 7:02 PMdefiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:57 PMflorin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:55 PMI think youre not grasping that it already is skills based. It's just the skill of the caster is < than the skill of the assassin.
I know clicking PA and Stun on a caster is such high skill.
Killing casters as an assassin is much easier than killing tanks as a caster. Stealth is totally op here and so is vanish.
There are plenty of casters who:dont run solo dont run in straight lines dont forget shields dont auto run while chatting
Those casters many times we ignore or let go cause it's not worth it, especially bone dancers and spirit masters. Miss pa and it's fight...yes PA/CD are the alpha strike and our unique main purpose differentiator or we would all be melee rangers with IP and reinforced armor and a bow to boot.
Now for tanks - well I can't say what you can or can not do...but ive seen some enchanters tear it up.
Kronin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 7:56 PMhttps://youtu.be/ofn5PuenWVY
Here is video of SL pots you can farm. ( shout out to Monkies for making) This video was in beta after SL pots was introduced. By the video it shows that a vis using these pots can uncover a stealther easy. I just think someone doesn’t want to take time to farm and wants to QQ. Just a guess though.
defiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 7:07 PMflorin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 7:02 PMdefiasbandit wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:57 PMI know clicking PA and Stun on a caster is such high skill.
Killing casters as an assassin is much easier than killing tanks as a caster. Stealth is totally op here and so is vanish.
There are plenty of casters who:dont run solo dont run in straight lines dont forget shields dont auto run while chatting
Those casters many times we ignore or let go cause it's not worth it, especially bone dancers and spirit masters. Miss pa and it's fight...yes PA/CD are the alpha strike and our unique main purpose differentiator or we would all be melee rangers with IP and reinforced armor and a bow to boot.
Now for tanks - well I can't say what you can or can not do...but ive seen some enchanters tear it up.
You claim the RvR is rock paper scissors. Then why is it so much easier to kill a caster as an assassin compared to killing a tank as a caster? Why are tanks allowed to fight back, yet casters mostly can't. What is the point of making stealth so easy to use here and PA so easy to land. Assassins have good damage, an escape ability, and near undetectable invsibilty. Casters have none of those things here.
Kronin wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 8:02 PMDon't you get them for taking keeps also? Doesn't the lord drop them also? Like I said someone does not want to take time to farm and wants to QQ simple. Also couldn't you go to a non RvR task realm and farm caravans faster then 3 hours? Pretty sure it didn't take us 3 hours to farm em.
Just CC the guards and pew pew pew the Jack Ass.
phixion wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 10:17 PMQuik wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 9:53 PMYeah I personally find ANY ability that lets you simply disengage and walk away if you do poorly even if it is on a 15 minute timer bad for the game.
You go into RvR you should deal with the consequences.
plus you can't tell me that there aren't assassins that literally wait for Vanish to repop before engaging someone again.
I'm not just talking about Vanish, if there is ANY ability that lets you escape it should be dropped immediately.
This game is all about attacks and counterattacks, literally every class has special skills and that skill has a counter skill.
Vanish is the only one I can think of that has no counter skill to stop. Yes I understand pets are still able to attack someone that vanishes but from what I understand that is because of a bug with the pet not having a second cast check, but normally there is no counter play.
I don't like any skill with no countering ability.
Then by that token accept that people will vanish from you sometimes.
And there is a counter-- you can find people who have vanished, it only lasts a few seconds and then they're in regular stealth again, which on this server means just about any green con can hit you out.
Horus wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 9:39 PMphixion wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 10:17 PMQuik wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 9:53 PMYeah I personally find ANY ability that lets you simply disengage and walk away if you do poorly even if it is on a 15 minute timer bad for the game.
You go into RvR you should deal with the consequences.
plus you can't tell me that there aren't assassins that literally wait for Vanish to repop before engaging someone again.
I'm not just talking about Vanish, if there is ANY ability that lets you escape it should be dropped immediately.
This game is all about attacks and counterattacks, literally every class has special skills and that skill has a counter skill.
Vanish is the only one I can think of that has no counter skill to stop. Yes I understand pets are still able to attack someone that vanishes but from what I understand that is because of a bug with the pet not having a second cast check, but normally there is no counter play.
I don't like any skill with no countering ability.
Then by that token accept that people will vanish from you sometimes.
And there is a counter-- you can find people who have vanished, it only lasts a few seconds and then they're in regular stealth again, which on this server means just about any green con can hit you out.
This is BS...for example...
Huge group up at door of keep. Assassins Perfs and kills a a caster in the middle of everyone and vanishes. People start running around looking... for quite sometime..never uncovers them. So to say you can still be attacked is BS. The total stealth and invulnerability is plenty of time to put enough distance between you and the attack that being uncovered is no easy task.
lilrdmandy wrote: ↑Thu 21 Feb 2019 10:36 PMThe problem is that if the devs check, I'm betting Vanish is used on every stealther, maybe even first pick.
I have no idea why Mastery of Stealth is rolled into stealth skill rather than an RA, this just leads to sb/inf/ns going straight into damage RAs after getting a 5 point vanish and doing way more damage at low RR than should be possible. 1 stealth vs 30 stealth on my minstrel, if they vanish I can't find them, also it doesn't seem like stealth detection is working correctly either.
Wellzy wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 3:24 PMnaw.
I enjoy not getting rolled by 3-4 fg's when ever I want to fight a 1v1.
As long as the zerg exists, vanish is the best RA for stealthers. Keeps it fair.
You have safety in numbers. I have safety in a 15 min cooldown RA that gets me no rps.
jhaerik wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 10:52 AMWellzy wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 3:24 PMnaw.
I enjoy not getting rolled by 3-4 fg's when ever I want to fight a 1v1.
As long as the zerg exists, vanish is the best RA for stealthers. Keeps it fair.
You have safety in numbers. I have safety in a 15 min cooldown RA that gets me no rps.
"Keeps it fair."
LOL Fair for how exactly. No other classes can excape the zerg, why do the snowflake melee stealth edgelords get to?
classysnowflake melee stealth edgelords
Sepplord wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:10 AMjhaerik wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 10:52 AMWellzy wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 3:24 PMnaw.
I enjoy not getting rolled by 3-4 fg's when ever I want to fight a 1v1.
As long as the zerg exists, vanish is the best RA for stealthers. Keeps it fair.
You have safety in numbers. I have safety in a 15 min cooldown RA that gets me no rps.
"Keeps it fair."
LOL Fair for how exactly. No other classes can excape the zerg, why do the snowflake melee stealth edgelords get to?
maybe because they are the absolute worst class to fight in a zerg? By farclassysnowflake melee stealth edgelords
jhaerik wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:19 AMSince when do they actually "fight" in zerg v zerg,
They just seems to one shot casters and spam their vanish key like it's going out of style.
Tell you what try doing that on a zerker. Seriosuly just run solo into a zerg as a zerker, try to get a kill and escape.
Sepplord wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:43 AMjhaerik wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:19 AMSince when do they actually "fight" in zerg v zerg,
They just seems to one shot casters and spam their vanish key like it's going out of style.
Tell you what try doing that on a zerker. Seriosuly just run solo into a zerg as a zerker, try to get a kill and escape.
a) caster's aren't oneshot. Repeating that claim doesn't make it true. Not even 2h-SBs oneshot equally geared/buffed/levelled caster that thought of casting their selfbuffs. Casters that are protected do not die to assassins.
b) why would i run solo as a zerker, i would be a beneficial member of a group and can join the zerg as a groupfighter in a meleetrain. Just as i am on a warrior, a thane, a savage, or any other melee class that can't attack from a far. Healers have a hard time getting solo-kills in the zerg too....should we reduce everyones dmg and escape possibilities down to the capabilities of a healer?
Are you lobbying to make assassins groupviable somewhere on the forum in a thread that i missed?
DAoC isn't a 1vs1 game and if assassins are killing you in the middle of the zerg, then that's a L2P issue
jhaerik wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:45 AMSepplord wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:43 AMjhaerik wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:19 AMSince when do they actually "fight" in zerg v zerg,
They just seems to one shot casters and spam their vanish key like it's going out of style.
Tell you what try doing that on a zerker. Seriosuly just run solo into a zerg as a zerker, try to get a kill and escape.
a) caster's aren't oneshot. Repeating that claim doesn't make it true. Not even 2h-SBs oneshot equally geared/buffed/levelled caster that thought of casting their selfbuffs. Casters that are protected do not die to assassins.
b) why would i run solo as a zerker, i would be a beneficial member of a group and can join the zerg as a groupfighter in a meleetrain. Just as i am on a warrior, a thane, a savage, or any other melee class that can't attack from a far. Healers have a hard time getting solo-kills in the zerg too....should we reduce everyones dmg and escape possibilities down to the capabilities of a healer?
Are you lobbying to make assassins groupviable somewhere on the forum in a thread that i missed?
DAoC isn't a 1vs1 game and if assassins are killing you in the middle of the zerg, then that's a L2P issue
"DAoC isn't a 1vs1"
Complains about zergs interupting his 1v1's and needing vanish to get 1v1's.
Sepplord wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:47 AMjhaerik wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:45 AMSepplord wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:43 AMa) caster's aren't oneshot. Repeating that claim doesn't make it true. Not even 2h-SBs oneshot equally geared/buffed/levelled caster that thought of casting their selfbuffs. Casters that are protected do not die to assassins.
b) why would i run solo as a zerker, i would be a beneficial member of a group and can join the zerg as a groupfighter in a meleetrain. Just as i am on a warrior, a thane, a savage, or any other melee class that can't attack from a far. Healers have a hard time getting solo-kills in the zerg too....should we reduce everyones dmg and escape possibilities down to the capabilities of a healer?
Are you lobbying to make assassins groupviable somewhere on the forum in a thread that i missed?
DAoC isn't a 1vs1 game and if assassins are killing you in the middle of the zerg, then that's a L2P issue
"DAoC isn't a 1vs1"
Complains about zergs interupting his 1v1's and needing vanish to get 1v1's.
quote me on that, i don't have any recollection of complaining about that.
This thread is people complaining about vanish, not people complaining about it being removed....you know, because it isn't removed
lilrdmandy wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 5:55 PM
Congratulations on being the one stealther that doesn't vanish every time they are about to lose, but I don't think what you're saying is true.
Mastery of Stealth should be moved back to an RA, not specline in stealth. Just wait until people are RR10 here, with ridiculous amounts of damage crits and evades... And high mastery of stealth specline, that's why it was an RA to begin with from my understanding.
lilrdmandy wrote: ↑Fri 22 Feb 2019 5:55 PM
Congratulations on being the one stealther that doesn't vanish every time they are about to lose, but I don't think what you're saying is true.
Mastery of Stealth should be moved back to an RA, not specline in stealth. Just wait until people are RR10 here, with ridiculous amounts of damage crits and evades... And high mastery of stealth specline, that's why it was an RA to begin with from my understanding.
noflex wrote: ↑Sat 23 Feb 2019 4:57 PMAs a solo friar I had a few 1v1 with assassins recently where they inc me and vanish once they realize they are starting to lose
Pisses me off, I just /laugh emote and leave the area
The idea of changing vanish to not work when player is below 50% health is great IMO
noflex wrote: ↑Sat 23 Feb 2019 4:57 PMThe idea of changing vanish to not work when player is below 50% health is great IMO
Steelhead23rus wrote: ↑Sun 24 Feb 2019 5:31 PMDont want to read all the topic and dont know if someone suggested it already but in my vision there is no need to delete vanish. Just bring the old Stealth system back so stealthers have to get MoS for being viable to solo. Atm yes i have to agree with people who was saying that they have way too much. As a solo its pain to see 2x low rr melee sneaks popping on me, then they both use purge+vanish and just wait for someone else who wont make them hit every their survive button just to survive... That is not normal..
phixion wrote: ↑Sun 24 Feb 2019 11:15 PMSteelhead23rus wrote: ↑Sun 24 Feb 2019 5:31 PMDont want to read all the topic and dont know if someone suggested it already but in my vision there is no need to delete vanish. Just bring the old Stealth system back so stealthers have to get MoS for being viable to solo. Atm yes i have to agree with people who was saying that they have way too much. As a solo its pain to see 2x low rr melee sneaks popping on me, then they both use purge+vanish and just wait for someone else who wont make them hit every their survive button just to survive... That is not normal..
It is normal, has been a part of the game since forever.
jhaerik wrote: ↑Mon 25 Feb 2019 3:01 AMphixion wrote: ↑Sun 24 Feb 2019 11:15 PMSteelhead23rus wrote: ↑Sun 24 Feb 2019 5:31 PMDont want to read all the topic and dont know if someone suggested it already but in my vision there is no need to delete vanish. Just bring the old Stealth system back so stealthers have to get MoS for being viable to solo. Atm yes i have to agree with people who was saying that they have way too much. As a solo its pain to see 2x low rr melee sneaks popping on me, then they both use purge+vanish and just wait for someone else who wont make them hit every their survive button just to survive... That is not normal..
It is normal, has been a part of the game since forever.
It's literally never been part of the game.
Stealthers always needed to spend RA's on MoS. Here they don't so they can get everything they need by RR 3 or less here. When normally they'd need to be RR6 or 7.
Compare that to say a Savage who can't even effectively RVR till 4L4.. and at 4L4 all you have is Det 9, purge 2, LW, and tireless.
If stealthers get free MoS why doesn't my savage get free det 9? Det9 is just as, if not more core to a Savage as MoS is to a stealther.
Kohi wrote: ↑Mon 25 Feb 2019 4:32 PMThis thread is all except ridiculous...
It happens all the time and it's a real pain in the ass. Last example, again in DF today : we were a full group of late 20s/30s waiting for our last slot to arrive in DF, few lowies hitting rats or plates around us. Suddenly, NS Pa on a caster behind us, instadeath for sure. I mezzed the luri, and we all jumped on him, schwup ! vanished and impossible to find anymore despite more than a dozen people dispatched in the room. THIS is ridiculous, not this thread...
Wellzy wrote: ↑Mon 25 Feb 2019 4:27 PMTo The friar complaining about vanish who has the most powerful 1v1 RA in the game, reflex attack. Give me a break.
Wellzy wrote: ↑Mon 25 Feb 2019 4:27 PMLove all the posts about stealthers picking and choosing their fights and vanishing all the time willy nilly.
15 min cooldown. I don't get to use it very much, and I do it's not guarantee I get away.
This thread is ridiculous.
To The friar complaining about vanish who has the most powerful 1v1 RA in the game, reflex attack. Give me a break.
Every class has an I win RA... static tempest.. Ignore pain, MoC.
Vanish does not help me win fights. It helps me get away from an unfair fight.
This whole "stealthers pick and choose fights" garbage is obviously someone who does not play a stealther here. Any 1v1 I try to engage is instantly added by max speed FGs. There is no picking and choosing, there is rolling the dice on a 1v1 and usually losing to fg's. The amount of times we get ganked in a fight and have to run back out to rvr is maddening, even with a 15 min vanish that -- sometimes works--.
You all have this fantasy about how stealther rvr is on this server. Roll one and find out how incredibly frustrating the class is to play on this server, then we can talk.
HtGeist wrote: ↑Tue 26 Feb 2019 7:48 PMVanish to me is over the top lazy get out of jail card,it should go..same as insta amnesia robbing your hastener speed alot of things in game that can,and do get exploited alot....in my little dream world..any non dmg insta/spells will leave hastener speed active,but will cut speed for caster cos casting action firing insta...ofc will be hard to implement so pulses for those with speed still work etc...but atm a loud sneeze in roughly the same zone poof gone is hastener...makes speed classes even more op then need be. i digressed...Vanish nope get rid of it...stealther already has the ability to choose when,and where to fight+can debuff you to hell and back *even if you purge the load of bs,weapon swaps and voila reapplied.../le sigh and if against all odds guy manages to iceskate uphill and beat the sneak...he surely deserve the rps...no 15 min cd neeneer crap griefing. cough one more time say something dramatic and lay down and die,filty sneak.
Wellzy wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 3:24 PMnaw.
I enjoy not getting rolled by 3-4 fg's when ever I want to fight a 1v1.
As long as the zerg exists, vanish is the best RA for stealthers. Keeps it fair.
You have safety in numbers. I have safety in a 15 min cooldown RA that gets me no rps.
jhaerik wrote: ↑Wed 27 Feb 2019 4:40 PMWellzy wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 3:24 PMnaw.
I enjoy not getting rolled by 3-4 fg's when ever I want to fight a 1v1.
As long as the zerg exists, vanish is the best RA for stealthers. Keeps it fair.
You have safety in numbers. I have safety in a 15 min cooldown RA that gets me no rps.
You mean like every other class?
Hell you can already pop out and kill a sitting caster in the middle of a zerg.... should you seriously be able to also insta escape on demand?
Vanish needs to go. Its removal won't affect good assassins in any way. You say it will kill stealthers when it will do no such thing. It will kill [edit - Language] assassins who need such crutches to make up for their inadequacies.phixion wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 5:44 PMrelvinian wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 4:42 PMI solo visible with no speed so i don't feel too much sympathy.
Vanish lets you kill someone in front of fg and escape.
Vanish lets you escape one v one.
And as already demonstrated, stealthers already have advantages.
YOU PLAY A NECRO FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. LMAO
You are playing the most overpowered class in the game and you're complaining that you can't kill duos? WAKE UP dude, not many people can take duos. You talk about vanish being an "i win" button, but Necro as a whole is an "i win" button. I can't believe someone so vocal about balance actually plays that pathetic excuse for a class with a clear conscience.
Without vanish I would die EVERY TIME i jumped someone, simply because this task system encourages zerging and nobody goes in to non-task zones anymore. I got bored sitting in emain waiting for action.
Removing vanish would just destroy stealthers, being able to get away once every 15 minutes is fair IMO. It's the only way to escape the mindless zerg most of the time and you aren't even safe when you vanish - i've been nuked out plenty of times (Necro's being the worst for it).
)Salviati wrote: ↑Wed 27 Feb 2019 9:22 PMVanish needs to go. Its removal won't affect good assassins in any way. You say it will kill stealthers when it will do no such thing. It will kill shitty assassins who need such crutches to make up for their inadequacies.phixion wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 5:44 PMrelvinian wrote: ↑Tue 19 Feb 2019 4:42 PMI solo visible with no speed so i don't feel too much sympathy.
Vanish lets you kill someone in front of fg and escape.
Vanish lets you escape one v one.
And as already demonstrated, stealthers already have advantages.
YOU PLAY A NECRO FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. LMAO
You are playing the most overpowered class in the game and you're complaining that you can't kill duos? WAKE UP dude, not many people can take duos. You talk about vanish being an "i win" button, but Necro as a whole is an "i win" button. I can't believe someone so vocal about balance actually plays that pathetic excuse for a class with a clear conscience.
Without vanish I would die EVERY TIME i jumped someone, simply because this task system encourages zerging and nobody goes in to non-task zones anymore. I got bored sitting in emain waiting for action.
Removing vanish would just destroy stealthers, being able to get away once every 15 minutes is fair IMO. It's the only way to escape the mindless zerg most of the time and you aren't even safe when you vanish - i've been nuked out plenty of times (Necro's being the worst for it).
Vanish needs to go or it needs to be a 30 point realm ability. Assassins right now, gifted rr 5 through tasks, can have everything they ever need to win any fight. Even if Vanish stays at a 30 minute RA, it still needs to have its purge attribute removed so assassins have to use it thoughtfully and aren't just gifted 2 purges and the ability to choose not to die at will for 20 measly points.
I'd further nerf assassins by creating immunity timers for their poison effects. I'd also remove viper from the game. At the very least I'd return RAs to class-specific designations.
A lot of assassins won't be good enough to hack it anymore, but so be it. I see nothing wrong with that.
Also, necros aren't even close to the most broken classes in the game. Disease kills the necro.
noflex wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 12:24 AM
phixion LOL you vanished on me earlier in a 1v1 on my friar near mpk emain.. then a damn hunter pops out and finishes me off with 10% health (free RP for you, when I at least woulda got RP from killing you before both you and the hunter would have gotten RP from me... but no, you had to cheese the F out)
that good sir is why vanish is getting a bad rap.. its horrible assassins like you who cant stand to lose in 1v1 situations that use it as a crutch to escape a loss.
sure use in outnumbered gank situations all you want that's fine.. but in a 1v1 cmon man.. just cheesy
noflex wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 12:24 AM
phixion LOL you vanished on me earlier in a 1v1 on my friar near mpk emain.. then a damn hunter pops out and finishes me off with 10% health (free RP for you, when I at least woulda got RP from killing you before both you and the hunter would have gotten RP from me... but no, you had to cheese the F out)
that good sir is why vanish is getting a bad rap.. its horrible assassins like you who cant stand to lose in 1v1 situations that use it as a crutch to escape a loss.
sure use in outnumbered gank situations all you want that's fine.. but in a 1v1 cmon man.. just cheesy
phixion wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 12:19 PMI got destroyed by a Friar earlier on in the day, apparently he used Reflex Attack RA... Another "I win" RA button, can we get a nerf or removal of that too. please?
PS: Was funny watching you crawl away from that Hunter shooting you in the back--he was blue con btw
noflex wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:45 PMNo it was not reflex attack I guarantee it, I’ve tried it and the unstyled attack’s it procs are evaded 100% of the time by assassins since they are unstyled swings.. literally every time it procs it’s evaded (has never landed damage once) and vs non assassins it’s parried/blocked 100% of the time as well.. I promptly respec’d and Dropped it as it’s a waste of points
And ya I’ll give you that.. was funny trying to escape that damn hunter.. plus I had the beetle agro on me from ST preventing me from casting heal lol
Salviati wrote: Good assassins don't need it. Bad assassins will defend it viciously.
phixion wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 4:54 PMnoflex wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:45 PMNo it was not reflex attack I guarantee it, I’ve tried it and the unstyled attack’s it procs are evaded 100% of the time by assassins since they are unstyled swings.. literally every time it procs it’s evaded (has never landed damage once) and vs non assassins it’s parried/blocked 100% of the time as well.. I promptly respec’d and Dropped it as it’s a waste of points
And ya I’ll give you that.. was funny trying to escape that damn hunter.. plus I had the beetle agro on me from ST preventing me from casting heal lol
I didn't say you used reflex attack, I said I had a fight earlier with a Friar and he destroyed me with Reflex Attack. So obviously Reflex Attack = OP and should be removed IMMEDIATELY.Salviati wrote: Good assassins don't need it. Bad assassins will defend it viciously.
Nice logic. But I think you'll find almost every assassin has it and uses it whenever it's up.
noflex wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 9:44 PMIm simply stating this magical reflex attack friar you speak of doesn't exist for the simple fact that the RA does not work since its unstyled swings are evaded/parried/blocked every time it procs.
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