Give every class in the game a 5 second cd insta lifetap

WOULD BE FUN!

Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:28 PM by chryso

I can't find the thumbs down vote thingy.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:29 PM by Yint

OK lets make it 4 seconds cd then.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:30 PM by Der_Eisbaer

Methinks somebody got killed in a RvR zone!

Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:31 PM by defiasbandit

Level 40 BD gottem.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:41 PM by Quik

LOL What he is asking is absolutely no different then people asking for buff pots or buff merchants or speed pots/items...he wants something for his class that another class has and he doesn't think it is fair...just like these other arguments

Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:44 PM by Isavyr

Quik wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:41 PM
LOL What he is asking is absolutely no different then people asking for buff pots or buff merchants or speed pots/items...he wants something for his class that another class has and he doesn't think it is fair...just like these other arguments

sat·ire
Dictionary result for satire
/ˈsaˌtī(ə)r/
noun
noun: satire

the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize ...

I think this is the closest word to what OP is doing. You're looking for something that isn't there.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:49 PM by Quik

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:44 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:41 PM
LOL What he is asking is absolutely no different then people asking for buff pots or buff merchants or speed pots/items...he wants something for his class that another class has and he doesn't think it is fair...just like these other arguments

sat·ire
Dictionary result for satire
/ˈsaˌtī(ə)r/
noun
noun: satire

the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize ...

I think this is the closest word to what OP is doing. You're looking for something that isn't there.

You're missing what I find so funny, and it is irony.

I figured he was being sarcastic, but the thing is, people DO keep asking for things like this and they continue to ask for more.

It made me laugh but at the same time almost cry because of what I see people begging the dev's for all the time.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:50 PM by Isavyr

Quik wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:49 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:44 PM
sat·ire
Dictionary result for satire
/ˈsaˌtī(ə)r/
noun
noun: satire

the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize ...

I think this is the closest word to what OP is doing. You're looking for something that isn't there.

You're missing what I find so funny, and it is irony.

I figured he was being sarcastic, but the thing is, people DO keep asking for things like this and they continue to ask for more.

It made me laugh but at the same time almost cry because of what I see people begging the dev's for all the time.

LOL. Fair enough--I thought you were trying to criticize his idea, as if it was an earnest suggestion.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 4:41 PM by Expfighter

the fix for the bd 4 sec insta lifetap is to increase the timer to 20sec!

then bd's arent so unkillable 1v1

Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:18 PM by Isavyr

Expfighter wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 4:41 PM
the fix for the bd 4 sec insta lifetap is to increase the timer to 20sec!

then bd's arent so unkillable 1v1

I think there is a lot questionable about the BD:

1) Why do they have insta 4s lifetap DD? Only other class to have instant lifetap is reaver--1000 range, 30s CD. Comparable at all?
2) Why do they have insta 4s lifetap with 1500 range? Nearly all instant DDs (skald/minstrel/bard) have 700 range. The hybrids (thane/vw/reaver/champ, etc) have 1500 range, with 15-20s cooldown.
3) Why do they have 3 mobile pets? Nobody else in game has it, making CC more of a nuisance. Secondary pets should be tethered to commander.
4) Why do they have instant debuff? Does not exist in any other class (it's not overpowered necessarily, just doesn't fit into DAOC)

This unique class broke all the rules about class design, the main problem being the lifetap. It should be 15s CD, minimum, to be balanced with DAOC abilities. Currently, the class doesn't fit into DAOC at all.

The above is solely my opinion and may be wrong completely and I apologize if the above post is offensive in any way.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:27 PM by Quik

So, are we on to wanting to nerf BD's now?

Just wondering since I thought it was the Animists turn, or are they already nerfed enough for people so we are moving to the next class?

I'm not worried about them, when we get to Scouts and how OP archery is let me know, I am tired of being shot when I am sitting helpless in the FZ...after that I want assassins gone so I can farm easier on my greys...then can we get rid of...

Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:35 PM by Isavyr

Quik wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:27 PM
So, are we on to wanting to nerf BD's now?

Is that really so surprising? When were they ever balanced? Volumes of complaints were there from day 1--and with good reason.

Most of the SI classes were broken in some way--necro, animist, and bonedancer--they all do incredibly well in their niche. The bonedancer just happens to broken in open-field too, making them an issue harder to ignore.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:50 PM by Quik

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:35 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:27 PM
So, are we on to wanting to nerf BD's now?

Is that really so surprising? When were they ever balanced? Volumes of complaints were there from day 1--and with good reason.

Most of the SI classes were broken in some way--necro, animist, and bonedancer--they all do incredibly well in their niche. The bonedancer just happens to broken in open-field too, making them an issue harder to ignore.

I play a Bard the most and I rarely run into BD's except during RvR tasks.

When just roaming with the guild I don't find them any different or tougher than any other caster. Once the pets are mezzed the BD goes down fast. I personaly find the Skald 100% nastier than the BD with Det.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:01 PM by Expfighter

Quik wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:50 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:35 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:27 PM
So, are we on to wanting to nerf BD's now?

Is that really so surprising? When were they ever balanced? Volumes of complaints were there from day 1--and with good reason.

Most of the SI classes were broken in some way--necro, animist, and bonedancer--they all do incredibly well in their niche. The bonedancer just happens to broken in open-field too, making them an issue harder to ignore.

I play a Bard the most and I rarely run into BD's except during RvR tasks.

When just roaming with the guild I don't find them any different or tougher than any other caster. Once the pets are mezzed the BD goes down fast. I personaly find the Skald 100% nastier than the BD with Det.

the bard has an advantage against a bd that NO OTHER class has, instant aoe mezzz!

Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:11 PM by Isavyr

Quik wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:50 PM
I play a Bard the most and I rarely run into BD's except during RvR tasks.

When just roaming with the guild I don't find them any different or tougher than any other caster. Once the pets are mezzed the BD goes down fast. I personaly find the Skald 100% nastier than the BD with Det.

I'm surprised that's your experience, Quik. But also--are you just facing solo BDs? Because when you say "they go down fast without pets" I'm thinking you're dealing with suppression BDs. Darkness have more damage, and they are really good rupters. They should be driving you nuts, because a good one will make it impossible for you to cast a mezz.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:13 PM by Quik

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:11 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:50 PM
I play a Bard the most and I rarely run into BD's except during RvR tasks.

When just roaming with the guild I don't find them any different or tougher than any other caster. Once the pets are mezzed the BD goes down fast. I personaly find the Skald 100% nastier than the BD with Det.

I'm surprised that's your experience, Quik. But also--are you just facing solo BDs? Because when you say "they go down fast without pets" I'm thinking you're dealing with suppression BDs. Darkness have more damage, and they are really good rupters. They should be driving you nuts, because a good one will make it impossible for you to cast a mezz.

Never solo I am always speaking as a 4man-8man depending on what our guild has going.

Solo I would be one of his pets pretty quick...

I don't base any class on solo gameplay very often. I am not much of a soloer so to ME I don't think the game was made for solo except for stealthers, so a BD meeting most other classes solo, yeah I would take the BD most of the time.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:14 PM by Quik

Expfighter wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:01 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:50 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:35 PM
Is that really so surprising? When were they ever balanced? Volumes of complaints were there from day 1--and with good reason.

Most of the SI classes were broken in some way--necro, animist, and bonedancer--they all do incredibly well in their niche. The bonedancer just happens to broken in open-field too, making them an issue harder to ignore.

I play a Bard the most and I rarely run into BD's except during RvR tasks.

When just roaming with the guild I don't find them any different or tougher than any other caster. Once the pets are mezzed the BD goes down fast. I personaly find the Skald 100% nastier than the BD with Det.

the bard has an advantage against a bd that NO OTHER class has, instant aoe mezzz!

This is true and I always take that for granted honestly...

Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:40 PM by Isavyr

Quik wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:13 PM
I don't base any class on solo gameplay very often. I am not much of a soloer so to ME I don't think the game was made for solo except for stealthers, so a BD meeting most other classes solo, yeah I would take the BD most of the time.

Glad to hear it--the balance around solo-play is really hit-or-miss.

Regarding the BD, with the instant spells (body debuff, 5s CD, lifetap, 4s CD), A BD should be able to lock-down another caster permanently, even if the bonedancer cannot cast because they're being being rupted, or while they're running and not even casting. And that's the problem, there isn't reasonable counterplay (reasonable--of course they are not God) to them because they aren't designed within DAOC framework with their long-range, incredibly low CD instant rupts.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 8:26 AM by Sepplord

the debuff shouldn't ruppt though afaik...

if it does -> bugreport

Mon 11 Feb 2019 8:40 AM by Isavyr

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 8:26 AM
the debuff shouldn't ruppt though afaik...

if it does -> bugreport

They work as intended here--which is to say, they're imbalanced, and do rupt.

https://www.uthgard.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=115&t=37594
https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/a-couple-of-questions-about-interrupting-casting.250226944/

http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.111
"Fixed a bug that caused the instant body debuff line of spells to interrupt enemy players in certain situations. This spell will no longer interrupt enemy players."

Yeah, that's believable, Mythic. It took you 9 years to fix a "bug".

Mon 11 Feb 2019 4:14 PM by

gruenesschaf

The debuff rupting was a bug according to 1.62(?) patch notes but was in for so long that it just is a feature and "fixing" this, like they did in 1.111, would be a major change. 1.62 included some section saying that all instant debuffs don't rupt, that actually holds true with 2 exceptions: dps / melee damage debuff and resist debuffs, debuffs with cast time always rupt which would include things like nearsight, other resist debuffs and also stat debuffs although only mobs have stat debuffs with cast time.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 4:44 PM by FFpheonix

Does the Theurg Melee Speed Debuff rupt?

Mon 11 Feb 2019 5:13 PM by

gruenesschaf

FFpheonix wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 4:44 PM
Does the Theurg Melee Speed Debuff rupt?

No but the enchanter dps debuff and reaver dps debuff pulse

Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:30 AM by joshisanonymous

My BD definitely killed the OP, a defensive hero, in 1v1. The only way that could be a more ideal scenario for a BD is if he was a warden or some other low damage melee.

That said, a solo BD on this server is definitely weaker than on a server like Uthgard where buffs were rare because of how much of a pain they were. Basically, BDs die to spike damage, and buffs increase the damage of enemies way more than they increase the health of BDs. Assassins are definitely difficult fights here and even getting hit by a stun from a melee class with front loading potential can mean the end.

In any case, I there are probably like 3 BDs that solo here, if that.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:02 AM by Zansobar

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:30 AM
My BD definitely killed the OP, a defensive hero, in 1v1. The only way that could be a more ideal scenario for a BD is if he was a warden or some other low damage melee.

That said, a solo BD on this server is definitely weaker than on a server like Uthgard where buffs were rare because of how much of a pain they were. Basically, BDs die to spike damage, and buffs increase the damage of enemies way more than they increase the health of BDs. Assassins are definitely difficult fights here and even getting hit by a stun from a melee class with front loading potential can mean the end.

In any case, I there are probably like 3 BDs that solo here, if that.

Luckily on this server your BD can get Physical Defense which will greatly improve survivability against melee damage.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:15 AM by stridberg

BDs have their own set of problems, particularly the bugged "freezing up" behavior of healers when their casts get interrupted by range (I would like to point out that no offensive pet spell seems to have a secondary range check like this), which causes them to give up on life and have to be manually unstuck by commands. Happens frequently because you cannot tell them to stop rebuffing and they will refuse to move until you went back into range and they finished buffing all viable targets. Makes healer pets drastically worse than they should be, and I find myself just releasing them when traveling in a hurry to prevent long-distance speed loss.
Then there's the whole issue of increased resist rates for lifetaps, but I believe that also affects every other caster with that mechanic in general and not just the instant variant. Just slightly more frustrating as the healing aspect is relevant more often for the BD.

The class is supposed to be an insanely good interrupter indeed, but it's as much of a good interrupter as theurgists are. And minstrels. And bards. And shamans. And reavers.
Being annoying as all hell is not a BD exclusive. Let classes do their thing.

Luckily on this server your BD can get Physical Defense which will greatly improve survivability against melee damage.

What do you mean "on this server"? Physical Defense has been nerfed quite considerably on phoenix.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 8:05 AM by Isavyr

stridberg wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:15 AM
BDs have their own set of problems, particularly the bugged "freezing up" behavior of healers when their casts get interrupted by range.

Sounds like a problem that isn't intrinsic to BDs, but rather their implementation. Is there a bug report on it? It sounds like it could use review.

stridberg wrote: Then there's the whole issue of increased resist rates for lifetaps, but I believe that also affects every other caster with that mechanic in general and not just the instant variant. Just slightly more frustrating as the healing aspect is relevant more often for the BD.

It's only relevant because you've come to rely on it. No other caster continually spams instant spells to deal damage and heal themselves. Others don't have this cruch available, and thus have to play more rationally. If the BD were to have the lifetap reverted to a damage only, and with a longer CD, they would still do just fine.

stridberg wrote: The class is supposed to be an insanely good interrupter indeed, but it's as much of a good interrupter as theurgists are. And minstrels. And bards. And shamans. And reavers.

Supposed to? I'm not sure how we can read into Mythic's intent here. They claimed it was a "bug", but who really knows--Mythic contradicted themselves enough times it's impossible to know what Mythic really wanted or hoped for.

At any rate, the theurgist is probably the only rupter with capability analogous to the BD, though it's wholly different--they still need to be rupt-free to get those rupts going, unlike a BD. None of the other classes you listed are analogous whatsoever--they all suffer from much longer CDs, or much shorter range--and often both--than the BD.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:28 PM by joshisanonymous

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:02 AM
Luckily on this server your BD can get Physical Defense which will greatly improve survivability against melee damage.

Right, and I'll eventually have high PD when I get to a high RR. I'm really not sure what your point is vis-a-vis my post, though, unless you mean that frontloading damage against a BD is too hard because of PD or something like that? I mean, I guess it will be when the BD is high enough RR to have a lot of a PD, but should the class not have higher survivability at high RR just as stealthers have even more frontloaded damage at high RR?

Isavyr wrote: It's only relevant because you've come to rely on it. No other caster continually spams instant spells to deal damage and heal themselves. Others don't have this cruch available, and thus have to play more rationally. If the BD were to have the lifetap reverted to a damage only, and with a longer CD, they would still do just fine.

...

At any rate, the theurgist is probably the only rupter with capability analogous to the BD, though it's wholly different--they still need to be rupt-free to get those rupts going, unlike a BD. None of the other classes you listed are analogous whatsoever--they all suffer from much longer CDs, or much shorter range--and often both--than the BD.

First of all, any solo BD that does nothing but spam LT is going to win some 1v1 fights but is also gonna die a lot more than they need to. BD is an exceptional solo class but "playing rationally" is still really important to success.

Second of all, you seem to have come to the conclusion that since BDs don't work like other classes then they need to be changed, which makes no sense at all. Practically every class in the game functions differently on some level from every other class in the game; that's one of the things that gives DAoC its flavor. Take that away and you have the watered down everybody-does-everything crap of most other modern MMOs or hell even live DAoC.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:56 PM by Isavyr

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:28 PM
First of all, any solo BD that does nothing but spam LT is going to win some 1v1 fights but is also gonna die a lot more than they need to. BD is an exceptional solo class but "playing rationally" is still really important to success.

Second of all, you seem to have come to the conclusion that since BDs don't work like other classes then they need to be changed, which makes no sense at all. Practically every class in the game functions differently on some level from every other class in the game; that's one of the things that gives DAoC its flavor. Take that away and you have the watered down everybody-does-everything crap of most other modern MMOs or hell even live DAoC.

I agree regarding homogeneity being a potential problem in any game, but I don't think you're seeing that the way the BD is different isn't unique, it's broken. There is a framework in place regarding all abilities, and each class contributes in a way within that framework. Bonedancer is outside that framework.

1) They have same tools as others--but better. Lowest CDs in the game for rupting--bar none--and by a factor of at least two, placing them outside insta DD framework.
2) Rupting them does not stop them from rupting you, making for poor counterplay, and breaking the casting design of DAOC (only casted spells rupt, unless the instant spell is short range, and long CD). This design philosophy applies to every class, except bonedancer.
3) More pets requires more CC. As the Darkness pets are ranged, one single pet resisting mezz = not effective counter. When they become split, which happens often in RvR, they require that much more effort to temporarily neutralize.

All of these are unique advantages, without drawbacks--and that's a problem. What we're talking about is practically the definition of balance--when something else has more of something, without the drawbacks. Here are examples of what would make the BD unique, but consistent with the game's philosophy:
- 700 range DDs -- bonedancer is now required to play risky in enemy backline in order to successfully disrupt. Unique role as disrupter now carries risk tied its reward.
- lesser effective HP of commander (weak vs magic?) to justify having more pets. More pets, but at susceptibility of losing them when commander is killed (currently, commander is as tough as other classes primary pets, but then with additional pets)
- tether pets to commander -- more pets, but mitigated by only being within sphere of commander

What has saved caster groups for a long time is the fact players were ignorant just how effective BDs are. On this server, that's not the case. We're seeing Mid caster groups run 2 BDs because they can completely shut down an enemy caster group, despites good counterplay from the other group. When another group has to be more skilled in order to stop bonedancer groups, because the counterplay isn't effective, it isn't because bonedancers are unique, it's because they're broken.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:14 PM by Yint

gruenesschaf wrote: The debuff rupting was a bug according to 1.62(?) patch notes but was in for so long that it just is a feature and "fixing" this, like they did in 1.111, would be a major change.

While this post was meant as a joke of sorts, the focal point of my frustration to make the joke was centered around the fact that bonedancer instas dont even take endurance.

While making the insta debuff not interupt would be a major change. So is all the endurance changes that have been applied here. If a bd can get within 1500 range of a player they can just perma lifetap at 1500 range and the enemy cannot escape aside from using LOS. The bd will have infinite sprint while spamming damage spells while moving the entire time. This is a mish mash of new fixes and old things that we wanted to keep classic.. like the 4 second cooldown + no endo cost.

Surely as a hero I have died to bonedancers and it is a great feat when i am able to kill one that misplays. They undoubtedly have a large advantage in 1v1 in that matchup. However, the no endurance cost on damaging spells and interupts affects everything from 1v1 to ZvZ. It doesnt feel right at all when bonedancer already had enough advantages as is.

my actual 2cents

Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:29 PM by joshisanonymous

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:56 PM
I agree regarding homogeneity being a potential problem in any game, but I don't think you're seeing that the way the BD is different isn't unique, it's broken. There is a framework in place regarding all abilities, and each class contributes in a way within that framework. Bonedancer is outside that framework.

1) They have same tools as others--but better. Lowest CDs in the game for rupting--bar none--and by a factor of at least two, placing them outside insta DD framework.
2) Rupting them does not stop them from rupting you, making for poor counterplay, and breaking the casting design of DAOC (only casted spells rupt, unless the instant spell is short range, and long CD). This design philosophy applies to every class, except bonedancer.
3) More pets requires more CC. As the Darkness pets are ranged, one single pet resisting mezz = not effective counter. When they become split, which happens often in RvR, they require that much more effort to temporarily neutralize.

All of these are unique advantages, without drawbacks--and that's a problem. What we're talking about is practically the definition of balance--when something else has more of something, without the drawbacks. Here are examples of what would make the BD unique, but consistent with the game's philosophy:
- 700 range DDs -- bonedancer is now required to play risky in enemy backline in order to successfully disrupt. Unique role as disrupter now carries risk tied its reward.
- lesser effective HP of commander (weak vs magic?) to justify having more pets. More pets, but at susceptibility of losing them when commander is killed (currently, commander is as tough as other classes primary pets, but then with additional pets)
- tether pets to commander -- more pets, but mitigated by only being within sphere of commander

What has saved caster groups for a long time is the fact players were ignorant just how effective BDs are. On this server, that's not the case. We're seeing Mid caster groups run 2 BDs because they can completely shut down an enemy caster group, despites good counterplay from the other group. When another group has to be more skilled in order to stop bonedancer groups, because the counterplay isn't effective, it isn't because bonedancers are unique, it's because they're broken.

Every other class that has an insta DD is also a tank. Continuing to draw that comparison and argue that it needs to be 700 range or have a long CD is silly when there's a significant difference in risk for a tank running into the enemy and a caster running into the enemy.

You also seem to be imaging a BD that has both a full line of caster pets and healer pets out at the same time. If the BD has all caster pets out, both the commander and the others die pretty quickly (subpets are typically greys and the commander is level 41). If the BD has all healer pets out, the commander is hard to kill but also isn't interrupting any more than any other pet in the game. (In fact, he can be taken completely out of the equation easier than most pets.) If the BD is mixing these, then the commander is only a bit harder to kill and the BD gains only a bit more interrupting ability.

But in any case, BDs are good at interrupting. So what? Both Hib and Alb have good interrupters, too. This claim that they're completely broken is really overshooting the mark.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 7:48 PM by Isavyr

I don't think my points are being realized or addressed, so I will agree to disagree. Thanks for the discussion.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 8:52 PM by Mulb

Imagine the BD would work like on Uthgard2. WIth /formation or /spacing huge and ish its harder to ae mezz the whole grp (bd+pets). IMBA!

Wed 13 Feb 2019 12:04 AM by teiloh

4s LT and an interrupting debuff are and always have been broken. Other than power issues which can be dealt with, you'll find with simple math that a BD does the most DPS of any ST caster, straight up.

And while it is quite a stretch to say heal pets make them immortal, they certainly do their part in keeping a BD alive in combination with group support.

The thing is that it would take a major rework to keep them viable while fixing the problems that make them overpowered.