Let's talk about how Overtuned Assassins are on this Server

This has been a problem since the beginning. In classic/SI it took a long time to get a perfect temp and level to 50. On Phoenix this is the exact opposite. Full temped Assassins running around only weeks after launch. It's borderline broken and getting boring. Part of the balance in classic/SI was how long it took to level and template them. You rarely saw full geared Assassins. On Phoenix most everyone is fully temped. It makes no sense balance wise.

All kinds of stuff seems off Poisons, RA balance, etc.. Then look at Archer classes. Why are Assassins so much stronger?

Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:06 AM by Pao

Hey, there is a Server for you, its called Uthgard.

Archers need more bow dmg. Versus Assassins they always died like flies. Stealth changes here are way better than Classic.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:14 AM by Isavyr

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:05 AM
This has been a problem since the beginning. In classic/SI it took a long time to get a perfect temp and level to 50. On Phoenix this is the exact opposite. Full temped Assassins running around only weeks after launch. It's borderline broken and getting boring. Part of the balance in classic/SI was how long it took to level and template them. You rarely saw full geared Assassins. On Phoenix most everyone is fully temped. It makes no sense balance wise.

All kinds of stuff seems off Poisons, RA balance, etc.. Then look at Archer classes. Why are Assassins so much stronger?

I'm confused. Which is the problem?
1) People are templating too fast (why is this assassin problem?)
2) Assassins are overpowered (how?)
3) Archers are stronger (than who?)

Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:17 AM by Wohop

Methinks someone got ganked a few times tonight

Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:22 AM by Kaziera

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:05 AM
This has been a problem since the beginning. In classic/SI it took a long time to get a perfect temp and level to 50. On Phoenix this is the exact opposite. Full temped Assassins running around only weeks after launch. It's borderline broken and getting boring. Part of the balance in classic/SI was how long it took to level and template them. You rarely saw full geared Assassins. On Phoenix most everyone is fully temped. It makes no sense balance wise.

All kinds of stuff seems off Poisons, RA balance, etc.. Then look at Archer classes. Why are Assassins so much stronger?

Because they dont have ranged atacks.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:32 AM by defiasbandit

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:22 AM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:05 AM
This has been a problem since the beginning. In classic/SI it took a long time to get a perfect temp and level to 50. On Phoenix this is the exact opposite. Full temped Assassins running around only weeks after launch. It's borderline broken and getting boring. Part of the balance in classic/SI was how long it took to level and template them. You rarely saw full geared Assassins. On Phoenix most everyone is fully temped. It makes no sense balance wise.

All kinds of stuff seems off Poisons, RA balance, etc.. Then look at Archer classes. Why are Assassins so much stronger?

Because they dont have ranged atacks.

Assassins are overtuned here. How many Assassins had full temps and weaps back in SI like what 10%? It's about 90% in the frontiers here. Game wasn't designed for that and it will only get worse as more players level up and rank up.

The way Assassins are on Phoenix doesn't make any sense balance wise. How can you even argue against it lol

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:02 AM by Sepplord

i dont know what kind of people you played with, but on Dartmoor almost every assassin was temped.
Going into the stealthwar without temp was suicide, similar to going unbuffed.

assassin prey on archers, archers prey on almost everything besides shieldstanks when they shoot over 2k locs + elevation bonus from behind a tree (although archer damage might be too low here currently, can't comment on that). It has never been an archers job to stealth through milegates and be on an equal footing against assassin waiting there

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:03 AM by Joc

Its easier to max templates here. The ROG system makes it quite easy to max a template and still have SI vests/weapons. It was also like this on live though, just that we all had more resist holes in our template. Having SI boss weapons was a very real thing on Lancelot. It was farmed every single day, and often AM/PM as it is here.

Also assassins are in no way overturned. They are very beatable by many classes. That being said, if you're running around on a caster solo/duo or a hybrid and they land the PA opener you SHOULD be dead. A very large part of the community plays them. If you are so worried about it don't run in straight lines in populated areas. Maybe farm some Stealthlore pots?

Working as intended.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:21 AM by Meandow

Only thing I find over tuned is the vanish, too short cd.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:25 AM by krycek

Not only were assassin's templated, really the only thing you had to skimp on was venom back then, but most ran buff bot's. So they were even stronger. Maybe you played a different game and have it confused with daoc.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:54 AM by Jaegaer

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:32 AM
Assassins are overtuned here. How many Assassins had full temps and weaps back in SI like what 10%?

No? All the Assassins I met and that I knew were fully templated AND used buff bots in the times after SI. If you got stabbed/perfed by an Assassin you were dead meat unless you were a full tank with purge up. It has been like that back in the days and it is like that today.

Archer are actually the same. Before the Bow mechanics rework Bow archers were pretty weak and this true on Phoenix as well. But on Phoenix melee archers are much better than back in the days.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:40 PM by gnefner

I'm from Lance - and every damn assasin in the frontiers were templated, and most were even running buffbots.. Not sure which server you were on.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:30 PM by Dimir

I can't see how being templated more quickly makes assassins OP because every other class will also be templated just as easily (even more easily). If you want to argue that a templated assassin is OP vs another templated character then fine, make that argument, but the speed in which one gets templated seems to make zero difference in this discussion.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:09 PM by Fjordin

If an assassin isn't fully temped out, they are meat. They don't have the biggest margin for error. It's easier here than on classic/SI, but we knew it would be going in.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:18 PM by defiasbandit

Dimir wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:30 PM
I can't see how being templated more quickly makes assassins OP because every other class will also be templated just as easily (even more easily). If you want to argue that a templated assassin is OP vs another templated character then fine, make that argument, but the speed in which one gets templated seems to make zero difference in this discussion.

Thats the whole point. A templated Assassin is very strong and benefits from it more than many other classes. On Live it took months to get such gear, meaning not all Assassins had it. That was part of the balance. On Phoenix its basically oh yeah you can have all the best gear and weapons on your Assassin in two days of farming. What???

Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:20 PM by defiasbandit

Joc wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:03 AM
Its easier to max templates here. The ROG system makes it quite easy to max a template and still have SI vests/weapons. It was also like this on live though, just that we all had more resist holes in our template. Having SI boss weapons was a very real thing on Lancelot. It was farmed every single day, and often AM/PM as it is here.

Also assassins are in no way overturned. They are very beatable by many classes. That being said, if you're running around on a caster solo/duo or a hybrid and they land the PA opener you SHOULD be dead. A very large part of the community plays them. If you are so worried about it don't run in straight lines in populated areas. Maybe farm some Stealthlore pots?

Working as intended.

Gee I wonder why they are so popular here. Just wait until they get High RR. The denial here is real.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:23 PM by defiasbandit

krycek wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:25 AM
Not only were assassin's templated, really the only thing you had to skimp on was venom back then, but most ran buff bot's. So they were even stronger. Maybe you played a different game and have it confused with daoc.

This is such nonsense. The average DAOC player had a half working template pre 1.65. Handing out the best weapons and armor to the Assassin class like its no big deal? Being full temped and not on an Assassin makes a huge difference. The changes here lets them snowball out of control. Its not balanced what argument do you have.

Your anectode about your friend or whatever is not reflective of most players you would find in the frontiers.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:26 PM by defiasbandit

Jaegaer wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:54 AM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:32 AM
Assassins are overtuned here. How many Assassins had full temps and weaps back in SI like what 10%?

No? All the Assassins I met and that I knew were fully templated AND used buff bots in the times after SI. If you got stabbed/perfed by an Assassin you were dead meat unless you were a full tank with purge up. It has been like that back in the days and it is like that today.

Archer are actually the same. Before the Bow mechanics rework Bow archers were pretty weak and this true on Phoenix as well. But on Phoenix melee archers are much better than back in the days.

Were talking about Classic and SI. What this server is based on. Very few players had perfect temps in 1.65, let alone Assassins.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:34 PM by Tenny

This post is pretty annoying for someone who solo leveled a SB as their main and has had to do everything - including ROG & feather farming - solo. Not easy, bud.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:52 PM by krycek

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:23 PM
krycek wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:25 AM
Not only were assassin's templated, really the only thing you had to skimp on was venom back then, but most ran buff bot's. So they were even stronger. Maybe you played a different game and have it confused with daoc.

This is such nonsense. The average DAOC player had a half working template pre 1.65. Handing out the best weapons and armor to the Assassin class like its no big deal? Being full temped and not on an Assassin makes a huge difference. The changes here lets them snowball out of control. Its not balanced what argument do you have.

Your anectode about your friend or whatever is not reflective of most players you would find in the frontiers.

I actually played an assassin (inf) in classic/si. Did you? I know for a fact ppl were temped (minus 11/11 venom) and for the most part running buff bot's. The one's who didn't have a bot of their own would usually share with someone that did. Before I leveled my own bot I would get wrecked by other stealthers cuz they had buff's. The best weapon's were, aside from a few exceptions, and are still crafted. So again, you're pretending this is some new territory where assassin's are actually geared but it's nothing new. Only difference here is they are weaker without buff bot's.
Maybe because you decided to run out with 5% resist's doesn't mean everyone else did. Or maybe don't try to solo on a wizzy and come cry about assassin's doing what they are supposed to do. See ya at amg.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:55 PM by defiasbandit

krycek wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:52 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:23 PM
krycek wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:25 AM
Not only were assassin's templated, really the only thing you had to skimp on was venom back then, but most ran buff bot's. So they were even stronger. Maybe you played a different game and have it confused with daoc.

This is such nonsense. The average DAOC player had a half working template pre 1.65. Handing out the best weapons and armor to the Assassin class like its no big deal? Being full temped and not on an Assassin makes a huge difference. The changes here lets them snowball out of control. Its not balanced what argument do you have.

Your anectode about your friend or whatever is not reflective of most players you would find in the frontiers.

I actually played an assassin (inf) in classic/si. Did you? I know for a fact ppl were temped (minus 11/11 venom) and for the most part running buff bot's. The one's who didn't have a bot of their own would usually share with someone that did. Before I leveled my own bot I would get wrecked by other stealthers cuz they had buff's. The best weapon's were, aside from a few exceptions, and are still crafted. So again, you're pretending this is some new territory where assassin's are actually geared but it's nothing new. Only difference here is they are weaker without buff bot's.
Maybe because you decided to run out with 5% resist's doesn't mean everyone else did. Or maybe don't try to solo on a wizzy and come cry about assassin's doing what they are supposed to do. See ya at amg.

Stop pretending that the majority of Assassins in Classic/si were full temped with buff bots. Thats just nonsense. The game was mostly casual players who RvRed with what they had. On Phoenix you've magically got full temped Assassins camping any realm task road. Its a snowball effect. Fast temping give them a huge solo advantage over other classes.

Then factor in swap macros, poison cycling, the strafing etc..

Wed 6 Feb 2019 11:06 PM by slunky45

It's annoying that nobody thought ahead much regarding dumbing down shield/off hand swap would easily let any assassin attack with a new pair of poisoned weapons every 1.5 sec.

Everything else in the OP is just the nature of these hand-out easy mode servers. Chars and templates that would take the better part of a year back in the day, are levelled, templated, and RR5 here in a month. Yee haw.

Trivializing PvE is part of what MMO players do...and DAoC survived on the complexity of RvR...unfortunately Phoenix trivializes PvE for you, and has made complex RvR into modern 'Go here, get reward' game style. And once the population is used to the sure-reward 'RvR', they won't play without incentive...everybody is already asking for solo incentive, duo incentive, small man incentive, 8 man incentive.

The MMO player can never be weaned off of high reward environments...they just move on to the next environment that rewards them.

DAoC competed for years with bigger MMOs with far more funding and content simply because the players created the environments around them. The 3 realm pure chaos of RvR was the philosophers stone of engaging PVP.

As a fan of RPGs my whole life, watching DAoC turn into a MOBA is really disappointing...but if they turn us loose now and let us RvR instead if MOBA-task-chase...some people will leave...and that is probably not going to happen. Maybe more or varied tasks will come, but the chaos has been stabilized, and this is the age of the 'incentive.'

Wed 6 Feb 2019 11:30 PM by defiasbandit

slunky45 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 11:06 PM
It's annoying that nobody thought ahead much regarding dumbing down shield/off hand swap would easily let any assassin attack with a new pair of poisoned weapons every 1.5 sec.

Everything else in the OP is just the nature of these hand-out easy mode servers. Chars and templates that would take the better part of a year back in the day, are levelled, templated, and RR5 here in a month. Yee haw.

Trivializing PvE is part of what MMO players do...and DAoC survived on the complexity of RvR...unfortunately Phoenix trivializes PvE for you, and has made complex RvR into modern 'Go here, get reward' game style. And once the population is used to the sure-reward 'RvR', they won't play without incentive...everybody is already asking for solo incentive, duo incentive, small man incentive, 8 man incentive.

The MMO player can never be weaned off of high reward environments...they just move on to the next environment that rewards them.

DAoC competed for years with bigger MMOs with far more funding and content simply because the players created the environments around them. The 3 realm pure chaos of RvR was the philosophers stone of engaging PVP.

As a fan of RPGs my whole life, watching DAoC turn into a MOBA is really disappointing...but if they turn us loose now and let us RvR instead if MOBA-task-chase...some people will leave...and that is probably not going to happen. Maybe more or varied tasks will come, but the chaos has been stabilized, and this is the age of the 'incentive.'

I know. Its apparent Assassins have too many advantages here.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 11:33 PM by slunky45

Anyway, more to the point...with the easy switch macroing...

Any assassin can setup their keyboards to swap 2 fresh lifebanes each attack. Effectively giving AoTG 4...free. Huge synergy with Viper....AoTG 5+ with high level viper.

I'm fairly certain envenom was changed after easy switching was implemented on live.

I wonder why...

Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:00 AM by Roby5869

Is it working as intended that Garrote can perma snare someone? Snare should fade off after 4 or 5 shots and not be perma like it is. It's working like that even with stunn on mobs, after a few it's impossible to stun them anymore. This is too much of an advantage for assassins vs anyone that comes near to their meele range.
As a shaman i was able, timing the right moment to purge or ichore them, to desease and run off and have a chance to kill them. Now here even if a shaman does everything correct can't escape that Garrote perma snare and after all if once he makes a mistake and you get off they still have vansh to survive.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:16 AM by Stimmed

All snares work the same. They last a certain time but you can keep doing it. Unless they have been rooted then they will have immunity. You cant garrote then do hamstring chain and there snared from garrote it breaks on damage. So you have to chain use it.

Any class with a snare style can do this etc. Not an assassin only thing.

But you can disease or snare poison to etc.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:36 AM by Quik

Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:16 AM
All snares work the same. They last a certain time but you can keep doing it. Unless they have been rooted then they will have immunity. You cant garrote then do hamstring chain and there snared from garrote it breaks on damage. So you have to chain use it.

Any class with a snare style can do this etc. Not an assassin only thing.

But you can disease or snare poison to etc.

Disease snare is the death sentence for me. I swear assassins know when I have just popped purge from another fight...

Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:42 AM by Stimmed

TBH Disease is my first swap weapon in rotation. Helps vs any class. Snare heal debuff for pots and reactives slight str reduction etc. So chances are your going to cop it alot!

Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:50 AM by Snoogy

Assassins are strong, sure.. But complaining that too many are templates? Why spend time getting to 50 and not template before RvRing? Its a fun class to play especially when you're geared up and ready to fight and compete and if you know the other assasins are you would want to as well. They aren't blatantly overpowered, if you get perfed and CD'd you'll probably die, just like if you catch them at a tactical disadvantage (visible.. Or at a range) they will die. Avoid the chokepoints with no escape and avoid assasin death.

As a 5L2 ranger, I can say they are strong but not 'overtuned" they beat me almost always when they get perf and CD.. So as an archer I have managed to adapt and overcome by going with a hybrid spec and taking Purge 4/ip3. I avoid getting perfed.. And if I catch them running at range I can get2-3 shot most SBS and infis just like they can 2-3 shot me. It really comes down to field awareness. By virtue of them being classified as "assassins" yes they are powerful and a templated one will assassinate you if he gets the jump. I've been at the forefront of the stealth wars since launch and I actually find it to be OK balance wise- I can't expect my ranger to best an assasin heads up in melee so I try not to get caught and am usually successful in avoiding them when I'm careful. I'd say there's an even ratio of how many assassins I've sniped to how many have WTFperfed me.

Now, the real issue and disadvantage that is freaking annoying this is the 150 to 250 stealth detection range. Assasins see me from a mile away so I do have to go the extra mile to avoid them.

My actual biggest complaint: the scrubs that run as 2-4 man stealth groups. I have 0 respect in the stealth game for the kids who duo/trio in stealth to prey on solo. Just reroll visi and zerg and let the big kids play..

Happy hunting
-Propagandhi

Thu 7 Feb 2019 1:22 AM by Nebu

Snoogy wrote: So as an archer I have managed to adapt and overcome by going with a hybrid spec and taking Purge 4/ip3.

...

Now, the real issue and disadvantage that is freaking annoying this is the 150 to 250 stealth detection range. Assasins see me from a mile away so I do have to go the extra mile to avoid them.

I've adopted the first part as well. My hunter is 39 spear, 35 bow. I feel that this is more versatile and allows me the opportunity to do as well as possible at lower RR. What bothers me is that you really do need Purge 2, IP3 just to hold your ground. Until you have this, you're really just feeding rps to assassins with the current view changes. As people climb in RR, this becomes especially the case.

That being said, I agree completely with your other point (+1). Assassins were given a stealth detection advantage 100% of the time. There is no counter. Changing MoS would have been fine had they left Camo in the game. Camo provided at least a counter to stealth detection so that we could navigate milegates and attempt to avoid stealth groups.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 1:36 AM by Stimmed

I also think Rangers/Scouts/Hunters should have same stealth as assassins. Because lets face it if we see each other that close that helps the rangers cause less chance for perf. But its not a total blowout nerf because we are still in melee range and an archer isn't getting off a free crit shot or anything like that. I would find that a fair enough balance fix.

Ive seen you solo out there a few times Propagandhi and your solo which is great! Im solo most the time occasionally duo like 5% of the time. (Meggles Inf).

Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:03 AM by Joc

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 6:23 PM
krycek wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:25 AM
Not only were assassin's templated, really the only thing you had to skimp on was venom back then, but most ran buff bot's. So they were even stronger. Maybe you played a different game and have it confused with daoc.

This is such nonsense. The average DAOC player had a half working template pre 1.65. Handing out the best weapons and armor to the Assassin class like its no big deal? Being full temped and not on an Assassin makes a huge difference. The changes here lets them snowball out of control. Its not balanced what argument do you have.

Your anectode about your friend or whatever is not reflective of most players you would find in the frontiers.

Incorrect. The majority of stealthers had very well rounded templates. The majority also ran bots. Some of them even ran haste/AF bots also, but not all of course.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:24 AM by Druth

No idea why people argue about how things were, and so assume it should be like that here.
The server emulates 1.65, it does not try to copy it.

Assassins are, in my opinion, to strong on paper. Not sure if it has yet translated into there being to many.

Strafe PA, easy weaponswitch+poison cycling, poison+debuffing combined with people not having BB's means it affects them a lot more.
Easy leveling for a normally unwanted group character means we see more of them, and easy to get raid gear means their initial opening will be much stronger.

Vanish+stealth mechanics bordering invisibility, with only very hard to get counters, means assassins has no enemies.
I do not think assassins pay a high enough price for the strengths it has.

Like I said, I don't think they have yet become a problem, but Beta ended with times where 50% played stealth, and while this is not i50, it's in no way hard to level.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 6:31 PM by krycek

Druth - So far only a bonedancer. Are you disappointed you can't face tank 2-3 assassin's at a time here or what? A BD having the nerve to talk about other classes being overtuned. That's good stuff.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 6:58 PM by slunky45

All RPGs have pretty high cheese factor classes...

I really can't decide if 20% PD on BDs on a 'classic patch' or keyboard rolling switch macro free AoTG5 assassins have more...

I'm sure it balances out though...I mean...entire days of zerging...I mean testing!...went into these decisions.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:21 PM by gorakthemighty

add a 3 second reuse timer to /switch and watch 90% of those wannabe stealthers vanish forever

Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:56 PM by Druth

krycek wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 6:31 PM
Druth - So far only a bonedancer. Are you disappointed you can't face tank 2-3 assassin's at a time here or what? A BD having the nerve to talk about other classes being overtuned. That's good stuff.

Are we winning discussion with personal attacks now?
When did that happen?

I specifically said: "Like I said, I don't think they have yet become a problem,"
But guess reading stuff is hard.

Anyway... the BD is a good example. I would never use how BD worked back then, as an argument to keep them as the were.
And if people came up with arguments to why BD's should be nerfed, and how, I'd always be open to discussion, and seeing they right now are the most played non-utility class something might be wrong.

In Beta, my main was a minstrel, and I strongly advocated to NERF minstrel charm, because it was so retardedly broken, and I could clearly see that we were heading towards minstrel domination.

A server dies if it reacts when bad things have happened, they win if they look at the signs and fix things before people gets upset.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:27 PM by Voidedtransaction

As a Bonedancer.. I walk in straight lines.. hoping a assassin with perf me... It means hes dead if he does not vanish 9/10 times.

I cannot see where the complaints are coming from.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:28 PM by castle89

gorakthemighty wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:21 PM
add a 3 second reuse timer to /switch and watch 90% of those wannabe stealthers vanish forever

I think it's just a bad mechanic anyway. I mean this whole thing of walking around with an arsenal of poisoned weapons behind.
Some very stupid gameplay decision, like autotrain was.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:30 PM by krycek

Was hardly a personal attack. Unless you are a BD irl? This thread is talking about assassin's being overtuned which I find pretty absurd. Maybe cuz I don't spam swap dot weapons. But they feel exactly the way they've always been to me. People just QQ for dumb reasons when they die. Obviously because the class is overtuned.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:33 PM by krycek

The only nightshade I've talked to in game that does spam dot swap's doesn't even use the /switch command cuz they've been doing it for years the old drag and drop way. Again, ppl just looking for excuses.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:49 PM by Zansobar

krycek wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 6:31 PM
Druth - So far only a bonedancer. Are you disappointed you can't face tank 2-3 assassin's at a time here or what? A BD having the nerve to talk about other classes being overtuned. That's good stuff.

What buff did bonedancers get on Phoenix? I know a ton of buffs assassins got on Phoenix.

Ok so Bds do get a watered down version of PD.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:06 PM by krycek

What ton's of buff's did assassin's get? /switch? The melee damage nerf? The 25% less strike through vs shields when dual wielding? Or being able to template themselves fully? lol that's been my favorite complaint so far. So unfair to have a template.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:12 PM by krycek

Oh and I wasn't saying BD's got any buffs. Not like they needed any. Was just funny that someone playing a BD was commenting in the "overtuned assassin's" thread. I know they were already strong but I'm not trying to get them nerfed either.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:48 PM by mhenfhis

Assasains with D/Q debuff is a bit insane , isnt it?

Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:56 PM by Numatic

I main a 50 NS, although I havent rvrd much with him yet since I'm templating I played an assasin for years. I just want to add things that I want to see happen. Though I doubt they will.

-Change viper back to it's original setting. Give to all three assasins
-remove the ability to reapply dots by changing weapons
-purge doesnt remove assasin poison.
-purge puts all debuffs(disease, ws/con, snare) on immunity timer.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:59 PM by defiasbandit

Nightshades seem a bit stronger than SB and Infi.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:59 PM by Kronin

I do not use the /switch macro to swap weapons. I'm so used to doing manually who need a macro ?

Thu 7 Feb 2019 10:18 PM by krycek

Kron said he had a good idea who you were in game, defias. You've pretty much confirmed that for us. Just make's it even more entertaining. I can see why you have such hate for assassin's and in particular nightshades lmao.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 10:22 PM by defiasbandit

krycek wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 10:18 PM
Kron said he had a good idea who you were in game, defias. You've pretty much confirmed that for us. Just make's it even more entertaining. I can see why you have such hate for assassin's and in particular nightshades lmao.

Nightshade is better than SB here. I am just looking for Assassins to be in line. Its cool for Assassins to be strong, but not at rank 3. High rank full temp assassins were hell of powerful back in the day. On Phoenix, you ding 50 and temp in a week or two and just murder even light tanks. And yeah NS is a bit overtuned here. You know it.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 10:43 PM by krycek

You do know assassin's have mirrored RA's here right? So what exactly makes shades stronger than sb/inf? The 150dd on 20 second timer? If anything, on paper, inf's with their 2.5 vs 2.2 (or 2.3?) spec points should be pulling ahead of shade/sb. But let's not worry about stat's and fact's in this thread.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 10:44 PM by Kronin

Lets not forget how INFs cant just use the iwin DF here.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 11:43 PM by The Skies Asunder

I honestly don't have much to add to this discussion, as many have stated the things I would agree with, such as /switch being removed, or poisons not be able to re-apply while it is still active. Though I am certainly curious as to what way a NS is superior to an infiltrator. I know SB gets the short end of the stick with only slashing weapons available, on a dex based class, with bad armor resist tables against other assassins, but why is NS somehow superior to Infiltrator when they have more spec points, and a stun that is nearly twice as long?

Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:04 AM by Ganil

Ns do more damage against other stealthers when specced bladed and have better utility. Their leather armor is resistant to slash wich is also a big plus as it tends to be the most common melee damage type.
Otherwise infiltrators are really good aswell, for sure. I'm not sure wich would be the "best" one overall, but against other stealthers, I'd rather play a bladeshade.
9s dragonfang looks retarded on paper tho.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:26 AM by krycek

It's rock/paper/scissors when you talk about dmg types and resist tables. Inf's are mainly thrust which is neutral to nightshades and inf is neutral to slash so that evens out vs a bladeshade. SB's have it worst vs bladeshades cuz they are vulnerable to slash but they are resistant to thrust. So it all boil's down to individual fight's and spec's. And even with blades being the better dmg type as shade there are still a ton of pierce shades. Blade shades suffer a lot in weapon skill til they can get some aug str RA's.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:43 AM by Zansobar

The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 11:43 PM
I honestly don't have much to add to this discussion, as many have stated the things I would agree with, such as /switch being removed, or poisons not be able to re-apply while it is still active. Though I am certainly curious as to what way a NS is superior to an infiltrator. I know SB gets the short end of the stick with only slashing weapons available, on a dex based class, with bad armor resist tables against other assassins, but why is NS somehow superior to Infiltrator when they have more spec points, and a stun that is nearly twice as long?

Against a pierce specced NS an Inf probably has the advantage due to armor resists, against a blade specced one that is even and I would think the magic dd damage would be worth more than the few more spec points that an inf gets.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:53 AM by The Skies Asunder

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:43 AM
The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 11:43 PM
I honestly don't have much to add to this discussion, as many have stated the things I would agree with, such as /switch being removed, or poisons not be able to re-apply while it is still active. Though I am certainly curious as to what way a NS is superior to an infiltrator. I know SB gets the short end of the stick with only slashing weapons available, on a dex based class, with bad armor resist tables against other assassins, but why is NS somehow superior to Infiltrator when they have more spec points, and a stun that is nearly twice as long?

Against a pierce specced NS an Inf probably has the advantage due to armor resists, against a blade specced one that is even and I would think the magic dd damage would be worth more than the few more spec points that an inf gets.

The insta DD will only be used once per fight, maybe twice if the RNG so decides to drag it out, however unlikely. I feel like they are both in a good place with each other, just that SB is very slightly subpar. The casted nuke though, is very good in situations usually not involving other assassins. The biggest thing that made NS the better assassins back in the day was the RAs, which are changed here, and therefore irrelevant.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:58 AM by Kronin

Insta DD from shade is really dookie and can be resisted. It is best used as a rupt more then anything. Now the castable DD is different story. I can hit harder usually if I get 3 casts off on someone instead of perf it will do more damage then the perf lol.

Now the debate about which is better I think it really boils down to who is a better player. If everyone is temp, everyone has charges then its even playing ground and it comes down to RNG when its sneak vs sneak. But if players go out untemp and no charges that is on them no reason for the QQ.

But I guess you could give someone a million dollars and they are going to QQ that they have to pay the taxes on it.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 2:19 AM by Stimmed

I think Bladeshade in the whole stealther war is just ahead of inf. Bladeshade vs inf is even. Spec points vs an instant DD not making a huge diff either way. But shades just completely destroy Sbs where infs still have a -dmg (or neutral? at work cant remember now!) table to them so not as easy but still ahead of them for sure.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:35 PM by Ganil

I think what made assassins so good here is:

- Vanish (no more stealthlore and everyone has it, no MoS detection range, nothing to inscrease stealth detection). Vanish and run away. Always. At least it doesn't help to kill so it's kinda fine but really frustrating.
- Upgraded env (it was str/con before wich is worse, but I think it's a good change because otherwise shadowblades are screwed. It's a strict buff regardless).
- Archer heavily nerfed (everyone was preying over each other, now it's one sided).

I don't know how they compare to tanks/hybrid and stuff.

it's small things but they add up at the end.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 1:28 PM by dante`afk

what's /switch doing?

Fri 8 Feb 2019 2:59 PM by keen

Well Vanish is a completly out of line RA. Just imagine every class had a button like this. Noone would do any RPs anymore.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 3:37 PM by WeaselSoup

i got hit by a 118 str/con debuff from an assassin, lol why the fuck do they also get the benefit of 'debuffs' on the server. All of the server specific balance changes are a trainwreck.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 3:40 PM by chryso

Probably a proc from the TG one hand sword.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 3:43 PM by Dimir

WeaselSoup wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 3:37 PM
i got hit by a 118 str/con debuff from an assassin, lol why the fuck do they also get the benefit of 'debuffs' on the server. All of the server specific balance changes are a trainwreck.

I wish I had made more of a big deal about this in beta but I did try a little to get some attention on WS/con stacking with Str/Con debuffs from weapons like that. Would love it if they made these not stack.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 4:22 PM by DinoTriz

How would you make a /switch macro for Assassins? How is it used?

Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:26 PM by Druth

krycek wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:30 PM
Was hardly a personal attack. Unless you are a BD irl? This thread is talking about assassin's being overtuned which I find pretty absurd. Maybe cuz I don't spam swap dot weapons. But they feel exactly the way they've always been to me. People just QQ for dumb reasons when they die. Obviously because the class is overtuned.

Personal attacks has nothing to do with who I am as a person in real life.
It's about going after my person, which in this game is a BD (according to my sig, although my main now is a RM), instead of discussing the stuff being debated.

As a BD I could ask that we go back to classic where pets "sniffed" out stealthers even after vanish, pets would chase you from Emain to DL unless you logged out or killed BD, and even then last attacker would be active and the pets would attack you if the owner got in range again.

But I do not, because it was a retarded system. The clue here being able to act objective, and not biased when discussing your own class.

If you don't use /switch, why not support it being removed???

And anyway, a BD should be far stronger than an assassin. It's a visibel class, any visibel class should be surperior

Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:01 PM by krycek

I don't care about /switch because I don't think it's an issue. Assassin's have been weapon swapping for many many years so it doesn't change a thing imo. Makes it easier? Sure. Would it stop dot swapping? No.

118 con debuff is just from enervating. Weapon proc's are 56. I know SB's have hit me with it and I know hib has a piercer with the proc and a blade with 56 d/q debuff.

@DinoTriz just do /switch in game and it will tell you how.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:04 PM by Freudinio

Honestly, the biggest difference to me is the lack of buffbots. Assassins appear very strong, because they can freely choose when to engange, with all charges up. It is what it is.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:20 AM by Isavyr

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:04 PM
Honestly, the biggest difference to me is the lack of buffbots. Assassins appear very strong, because they can freely choose when to engange, with all charges up. It is what it is.

Strong? Strong is a relative thing--strong vs what? They aren't taking out tanks. They aren't taking out small groups. They are taking out casters and archers, which is exactly what they're supposed to be winning against.

Defias, here we are X amount of pages down the line, and you still haven't bolstered your opinion with anything resembling "supporting evidence". In what circumstances are they defeating enemies that they should not?

Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:28 AM by Nebu

Isavyr wrote: Strong? Strong is a relative thing--strong vs what? They aren't taking out tanks. They aren't taking out small groups. They are taking out casters and archers, which is exactly what they're supposed to be winning against.

Defias, here we are X amount of pages down the line, and you still haven't bolstered your opinion with anything resembling "supporting evidence". In what circumstances are they defeating enemies that they should not?

Assassins can handily defeat all non-assassin stealthers, all casters, all support, and some hybrids. Add to this lower RR melee. Explain to me how archers have the same success with an equal number of target opportunities. I'm just not seeing it.

The only advantage archers have is that they can leach off the zerg a bit better. That's hardly enough of a carrot to keep people playing archers.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:16 AM by WeaselSoup

118 con debuff is just from enervating. Weapon proc's are 56. I know SB's have hit me with it and I know hib has a piercer with the proc and a blade with 56 d/q debuff.

Yes, and this shit needs to be nerfed into the ground, along with every other server specific change somehow benefiting stealthers either directly or indirectly. You're just hand-waving it away "oh wat can ya do".

Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:33 AM by

gruenesschaf

WeaselSoup wrote:
118 con debuff is just from enervating. Weapon proc's are 56. I know SB's have hit me with it and I know hib has a piercer with the proc and a blade with 56 d/q debuff.

Yes, and this shit needs to be nerfed into the ground, along with every other server specific change somehow benefiting stealthers either directly or indirectly. You're just hand-waving it away "oh wat can ya do".

That's not a change though. http://camelot.allakhazam.com/item.html?citem=7055 see the image at the bottom.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:07 AM by krycek

It's like these people haven't played daoc til this server opened. Enervating poison and SI weapons aren't some custom change to this server. Been around for years.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:29 AM by WeaselSoup

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:33 AM
WeaselSoup wrote:
118 con debuff is just from enervating. Weapon proc's are 56. I know SB's have hit me with it and I know hib has a piercer with the proc and a blade with 56 d/q debuff.

Yes, and this shit needs to be nerfed into the ground, along with every other server specific change somehow benefiting stealthers either directly or indirectly. You're just hand-waving it away "oh wat can ya do".

That's not a change though. http://camelot.allakhazam.com/item.html?citem=7055 see the image at the bottom.

Yes, but the difference between live and this is that on live you actually have buffs to counteract the poison. Since buffs have been removed a normal person gets destroyed by this debuff. Unless you want to fully charge up just to walk through the MG, whereas the assasin can choose whether or not they decide to take the fight.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:07 AM by Cadebrennus

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:43 AM
The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 11:43 PM
I honestly don't have much to add to this discussion, as many have stated the things I would agree with, such as /switch being removed, or poisons not be able to re-apply while it is still active. Though I am certainly curious as to what way a NS is superior to an infiltrator. I know SB gets the short end of the stick with only slashing weapons available, on a dex based class, with bad armor resist tables against other assassins, but why is NS somehow superior to Infiltrator when they have more spec points, and a stun that is nearly twice as long?

Against a pierce specced NS an Inf probably has the advantage due to armor resists, against a blade specced one that is even and I would think the magic dd damage would be worth more than the few more spec points that an inf gets.

Blade spec NS starts out 20 points of strength behind a Briton and 30 points of strength behind a Norse. Because temps and buffs are in a 1.65 setting and stats are lower here, stats play a bigger role on Phoenix than they do on Live. I tested for single stat buff via RAs (Aug Str) vs spike damage RAs (Mastery of Pain) and Augmented Strength provided better damage over time than Mastery of Pain did for the same amount of points at varying levels of points spent.

What this means is that because the only choice available for Nightshades are races that only start with 40 strength they are inherently much weaker with the damage type that is supposed to give them the edge in damage over other Stealthers as is claimed in this thread. At best, the damage boost from Blades vs other Stealthers might even out the 20 to 30 point deficit in strength. At worst it could leave them weaker than just sucking it up and using an inferior damage type (Pierce) because their stats are better with it (but not by much, since they will still eat a 10 to 15 point stat deficit). However, I haven't tested which scenario is the truer of the two.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:50 AM by defiasbandit

Are we gonna pretend Rank 3 Assassins were this powerful back during SI? Not even considering the fact that most didn't have full temps or weaps.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:01 PM by Sepplord

WeaselSoup wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:29 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:33 AM
WeaselSoup wrote: Yes, and this shit needs to be nerfed into the ground, along with every other server specific change somehow benefiting stealthers either directly or indirectly. You're just hand-waving it away "oh wat can ya do".

That's not a change though. http://camelot.allakhazam.com/item.html?citem=7055 see the image at the bottom.

Yes, but the difference between live and this is that on live you actually have buffs to counteract the poison. Since buffs have been removed a normal person gets destroyed by this debuff. Unless you want to fully charge up just to walk through the MG, whereas the assasin can choose whether or not they decide to take the fight.

Afaik unbuffed targets are effected much less from a debuff than a buffed target is...

That said, if you run through milegates unbuffed because buff-pots are too expensive for you then you will lose any fight vs an Assassin.
Weaponprocs make no difference then.

At least that Comment explains the ridicoulessness of your mindset and where some of these mindboggling ideas are born from...

Unbuffed soloers and people used to fighting untemped assassins, complaining about too strong Assassins

Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:47 PM by Druth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:01 PM
Afaik unbuffed targets are effected much less from a debuff than a buffed target is...

I always assumed that debuff was a fixed amount, no matter what your oponents stats were?

Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:27 PM by Sepplord

Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:47 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:01 PM
Afaik unbuffed targets are effected much less from a debuff than a buffed target is...

I always assumed that debuff was a fixed amount, no matter what your oponents stats were?

Afaik debuffs Need 1point of their debuffvalue to negate 1point of buffstats, but 2points debuffvalue to negate 1point of itemstats.

Even if that is not how it works in this server, if anyone is fighting unbuffed in RVR their perception of Balance will be skewed. Heavily

Sat 9 Feb 2019 3:34 PM by WeaselSoup

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:01 PM
WeaselSoup wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:29 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:33 AM
That's not a change though. http://camelot.allakhazam.com/item.html?citem=7055 see the image at the bottom.

Yes, but the difference between live and this is that on live you actually have buffs to counteract the poison. Since buffs have been removed a normal person gets destroyed by this debuff. Unless you want to fully charge up just to walk through the MG, whereas the assasin can choose whether or not they decide to take the fight.

Afaik unbuffed targets are effected much less from a debuff than a buffed target is...

That said, if you run through milegates unbuffed because buff-pots are too expensive for you then you will lose any fight vs an Assassin.
Weaponprocs make no difference then.

At least that Comment explains the ridicoulessness of your mindset and where some of these mindboggling ideas are born from...

Unbuffed soloers and people used to fighting untemped assassins, complaining about too strong Assassins

Thank you for the personal attacks. I am glad your comment explains the ridiculousness of someone who thinks that the current situation is okay. You are obsessed with the idea that people have to be buffed to do anything in the game. Which is the only way you can defend the absurd idea that in a post-buffbot game running anywhere without full buffs should be penalized with death.

The idea that i need to spend 30+ gold everytime for MAXIMUM 10 minutes of PvP time is absurd. How is this better than having buffbots? We've removed them and then created a system that heavily benefits a single group of classes. Assassins, all of their skills do insane damage and are buffed around the other people also being fully buffed. Since an assassin doesn't need to fully buff until the encounter starts they can always have the upper hand.

Your attitude, and poor logic, highly everything wrong with the decision making thus far on this server. Hurr durr i'll just remove something from the ecosystem and everything will be fine!. *everything crashes around them* hah this is fine and you just need to l2p. Please don't forget to put an extra shot in my latte next time before you write your reply.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:01 PM by Sepplord

Dude, if you have a problem with buff-pots or their cost, then argue that point. But trying to get assassins changed because you want to compete unbuffed against them buffed then dont expect to be treated like a serious discussion partner

I mean, look at the timeline:

First you complain about a debuff procc, and get replies that the procc has always been like that.

Then you claim that that was in a time where everyone had buffs and that countered (which is factually incorrect since debuffs are nerfed vs unbuffed targets).

And then you switch to saying buffs are too expensive to use and that assassins can just buff before fight, disregarding that buffing unstealthes them and would warn you...

I am actually considering you to be against archer buffs and only playing a role to make the pro-archer-buff side look stupid

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:37 PM by krycek

The idea that assassin's can wait til they choose to attack to buff is wrong as well. Charges have 2 minute reuse time. So in order to have all charges up ya gotta put em up early and who know's when a target will show itself. I start buffing at pk cuz I expect rvr to happen at any time. Frontiers are dark and full of terror.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 5:16 PM by WeaselSoup

The thing that you all don't seem to recognize is that all of these points are related to the same core problem. All of these concepts that I have given, together, create a large advantage that only assassins can benefit from.

- The cost of buff pots and assassins having it easier than other classes in terms of affordability
- not constantly getting rolled by wandering groups cancelling your buffs
- Since it is prohibitively expensive for other classes to maintain the same level of buffs the assassins have an advantage in terms of their stats
- Since it is prohibitively expensive for other classes to maintain buffs the assassin skills that are balanced around other people being buffed are too strong

Your counter arguments aren't even good counter arguments. Just because a stealther has to unstealth at some point doesn't change any of these facts. If anything it's more to support the point. A stealther can mitigate the risk of having to use these buffs if they extend over 10 minutes, whereas another class cannot. You all are delusional if you think the relative power of stealthers on this server is the same as it would be on a different server. From the 'arguments' you've made it seems you're also playing a stealther class and are unable to look at the issue unbiased.

You always come back to the same argument, "well this is how its been on live so that means its okay here". Phoenix has made specific changes to alter the balance of this server versus live. To say that since it's on live that means it should remain the same here is a terrible argument, and has no logical support. It is balanced on live, but the mechanics that balance it have been removed on this server. The entire idea of removing buffbots was to remove the dependency on needing one to pvp. Saying that you shouldn't be running around without full buffs is the most stupid thing I've ever heard. It clearly goes against the intentions of the changes, and highlights the exact the problem with stealthers. You legitimately think in a post-buffbot game that trying to fight someone without full buffs is stupid. Why the hell did we remove buffbots then? This system is clearly worse than the alternative.

What you're probably going to say is, "well you shouldn't be trying to solo on a non stealth class then, you're asking for it". That's a whole other issue that is also a problem. Due to heavily incentivizing stealthers with changes like these you have the option to either zerg or play a stealther. The in-between is almost non-existant and closing every day. So not only are stealthers far stronger than they should be against a non stealth class due to indirect buffs, they are becoming the only option for a 1v1 class due to the way these buffs have been given. It is objectively a terrible system that you only think is good because you are currently benefiting from it.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:14 PM by Isavyr

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:07 AM
What this means is that because the only choice available for Nightshades are races that only start with 40 strength they are inherently much weaker with the damage type that is supposed to give them the edge in damage over other Stealthers as is claimed in this thread. At best, the damage boost from Blades vs other Stealthers might even out the 20 to 30 point deficit in strength. At worst it could leave them weaker than just sucking it up and using an inferior damage type (Pierce) because their stats are better with it (but not by much, since they will still eat a 10 to 15 point stat deficit). However, I haven't tested which scenario is the truer of the two.

I tested it in beta. It wasn't correct on dummies. If you multiply damage done on dummy with thrust by 0.9, and multiply slash by 1.1, they came to be about the same. As far as I can tell, bladeshade isn't a thing.

That being said, trying to correct people's baseless assumptions is a full-time job, so unless someone has evidence of their claim, it should be summarily dismissed.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:19 PM by Isavyr

WeaselSoup wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 3:34 PM
The idea that i need to spend 30+ gold everytime for MAXIMUM 10 minutes of PvP time is absurd. How is this better than having buffbots? We've removed them and then created a system that heavily benefits a single group of classes. Assassins, all of their skills do insane damage and are buffed around the other people also being fully buffed. Since an assassin doesn't need to fully buff until the encounter starts they can always have the upper hand.

Two questions:
1) Have you PA a caster without buffs? Guess how much damage it does? About 300. Do you think this is reasonable? (For context, this is about the same as one two-hander attack from buffed visible tank--and less than a leviathan). Do you think buffs might be necessary to be competitive for assassins, and ergo the system actually penalizes them because they are necessary yet expensive?
2) Can you quantify insane damage? Is this with their opener, or without? What DPS do you consider 'insane'? 60? 80? Over 100?

WeaselSoup wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 3:34 PM
Since an assassin doesn't need to fully buff until the encounter starts they can always have the upper hand.

One comment:
This is incorrect. You cannot buff from stealth, and often lose the initiative if you reveal yourself to buff up. And depending on your buff arrangement, you may have to stay out of stealth for an extended time to get all buffs up. This is simply factually incorrect in theory and in practice. Very few, if any players, buff right before beginning their attack--it's ineffective.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:30 PM by WeaselSoup

You can buff behind a tree or something and then hit someone, or because stealth is so broken on this server you can just pop for a second and then nothing happens because no one can find you. I never actually said you can buff from stealth. You're creating a strawman, not gonna go for it.

The dps i consider 'insane' is being PA'd for 650 ontop of a 118 str/con debuff. And tbh if both parties were unbuffed you should be able to kill that caster with that dps, though i think you're purposely lying to try to make your point seem better. And again, you're ignoring the main point of assassins getting far more benefit from the buff charges than other classes due to not having the cost of being ganked and losing your money. Which is a really big fucking flaw of the entire system they have created. It incentivizes only one type of solo play, which is stealthers/assassins.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:50 PM by Isavyr

WeaselSoup wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:30 PM
[1] You can buff behind a tree or something and then hit someone, or because stealth is so broken on this server you can just pop for a second and then nothing happens because no one can find you. I never actually said you can buff from stealth. You're creating a strawman, not gonna go for it.

[2] The dps i consider 'insane' is being PA'd for 650 ontop of a [2] 118 str/con debuff. And tbh if both parties were unbuffed you should be able to kill that caster with that dps, though i think you're purposely lying to try to make your point seem better. [4] And again, you're ignoring the main point of assassins getting far more benefit from the buff charges than other classes due to not having the cost of being ganked and losing your money. Which is a really big fucking flaw of the entire system they have created. It incentivizes only one type of solo play, which is stealthers/assassins.

Nothing good can come from a discussion when you approach it with your mindset that the other person is lying and dishonest.

Two further points:
1) Enemies move around. Assassins cannot teleport. As I already mentioned, you lose your initiative if you have to go behind a tree and buff . It's ineffective. This will become very clear to you if you played one--I wish you had used i50 to do, so you could write with some authority. Though, to be honest, other games could have taught you this too--play a rogue in WoW and before your kill, go elsewhere for 5s, and tell me if your target is still available--many times it won't be. Assassins in DAoC are opportunists and don't have many tools to setup scenarios in their favor--rather they exploit what the enemy gives them at that time.
2) This sounds like a caster without shields, or an SB 2-hander (do you want that removed, specifically?)
3) I don't know anything about the 118 str/con debuff but maybe that's an issue in itself and not assassins per se. That isn't a baseline ability of assassin, it's itemization, correct?
4) This is evidence of inexperience on your part. There are archers, grouped assassins, ebb and flow of battle--there's no such thing as a guaranteed kill, which means assassins get ganked a LOT. If you are certain that what I just wrote is false, without any experience on your part, I have nothing to write further.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:16 PM by djegu

WeaselSoup wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:30 PM
You can buff behind a tree or something and then hit someone, or because stealth is so broken on this server you can just pop for a second and then nothing happens because no one can find you. I never actually said you can buff from stealth. You're creating a strawman, not gonna go for it.

The dps i consider 'insane' is being PA'd for 650 ontop of a 118 str/con debuff. And tbh if both parties were unbuffed you should be able to kill that caster with that dps, though i think you're purposely lying to try to make your point seem better. And again, you're ignoring the main point of assassins getting far more benefit from the buff charges than other classes due to not having the cost of being ganked and losing your money. Which is a really big fucking flaw of the entire system they have created. It incentivizes only one type of solo play, which is stealthers/assassins.

You have good arguments WeaselSoup but i think you forgot the primarily objectif of Assassin.
1) The PvP in daoc isn't design to go solo except if you have speed or you are a stealther.
2) Assassin has the weakest armor right after caster. Technically against scale or plate, the assassin has few chances.
3) Assassin are pure 1vs1 class, which mean in grp they are a liabilities.

Now i get your point about having great PA AND 118str/con debuff, the things is, how many time an assassin do a perfect PA ? I'd say optimistically 50% maybe 60% if he is skilled that's mean the 650dmg is not true on average an assassin is doing 350dmg on PA and then he try to take advantage by using debuff.

So if you want to go solo don't choose caster.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 8:12 PM by krycek

Stealthers were meant to be able to solo effectively. Some classes were not. Stop trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and maybe you won't sound so miserable.
If you enjoy soloing make a solo friendly character. Don't blame the game design cuz you can't solo well on w/e it is you're trying to solo on ie wizards.

And for what it's worth I despise using 10 min buff's. I would love to have my buff bot back. But that's a whole other can of worm's.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 8:43 PM by WeaselSoup

The normal game design is fine for this, yes i won't be as effective in terms of percentage of legitimate engagements. But when i get a 1v1, it should be legitimate. Since you all seem to think that the game being designed around the only 1v1 classes being those with stealth or those with speed then we'll just agree to disagree. Thus far, you all ALWAYS go back to the same argument. "its like that on live". Except it's not like that on live, not at all. Because we are always on the same playing field on the engagement and each life hardly costs me a thing. And each life doesn't cost me a relatively absurd amount of gold.

Instead we've created some shit system where the only ones who can afford to actually 1v1 are stealthers. Which, in my opinion, is NOT how the game is designed at all. You just don't want to lose your toys and all latch to the same shitty argument. For the record I wear scale armor, the 650 PA was from a 2h slash SB.

What you all are apparently telling me is if i want to solo I have to play stealther or maybe skald mins, (so if i want to play hib i have no options). This is quintessential shit game design and it's a design that's been created by the changes that i've outlined specifically benefitting one group of people. The amount of strawmen and poor argument i've already outlined as attempts to justify this design are only more evidence of how bad and truly unreasonable it is.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 8:51 PM by Ganil

The reason most ppl say solo classes are stealth/speed one is because they're those who can afford to dodge groups/zerg.

Otherwise 1v1 I think everyone should have a decent shot at winning.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:03 PM by florin

It’s like weasel thinks that buff pots and charges fall from the sky like mana if you’re a stealther. You realize we have farming characters that we have to equip and template to do what we do and be competitive. Don’t complain when you do not want to do what it takes to win. There will always be players more motivated than you and going into this game with a fortnite mindset isn’t going to get you far. This game rewards players who play well and play a lot that includes farming for buffs and perfect setups.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:09 PM by krycek

Solo friendly class doesn't equal strong 1v1. The strongest 1v1's aren't assassin's btw. Solo friendly is exaclty what Ganil said. Being able to pick your fight's and avoiding fight's that are disadvantageous.

Nobody is afraid of losing their toy's here. Buff's are more of a necessity for soloing and imo a burden. But to come here and QQ about having to use potion's and charge's on a non-buff bot server is ridiculous.

Only thing I can tell you is to buff up before heading out, like I do as a shade. Then you don't have to worry about "legitimate engagements". If you're dying too much and can't afford recharges avoid task zones if you're a visi.

I'm guessing you didn't play on uthgarde either? Or the classic daoc server's with no buff bots? Pretty much the same thing here.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:10 PM by krycek

florin wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:03 PM
It’s like weasel thinks that buff pots and charges fall from the sky like mana if you’re a stealther. You realize we have farming characters that we have to equip and template to do what we do and be competitive. Don’t complain when you do not want to do what it takes to win. There will always be players more motivated than you and going into this game with a fortnite mindset isn’t going to get you far. This game rewards players who play well and play a lot that includes farming for buffs and perfect setups.

To quote Steph Curry. "The separation is in the preparation".

Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:27 PM by WeaselSoup

The point is you get far more bang for your buck than other classes do, which enables you to use them more often. Now you're moving the goalposts to yes, we have an advantage when it comes to buffs and potions but it totally costs us just as much as everyone else!

Even if this is true, that all of you stealthers are only able to afford these buffs thanks to a farming toon (lol), its evidence of how shit this system is. People have to PvE just so they can PvP on a level playing field, that's a terrible design and people should stop defending it like it's somehow a good system. No matter what angle you look at this problem it's a shitty system.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:22 PM by florin

WeaselSoup wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:27 PM
The point is you get far more bang for your buck than other classes do, which enables you to use them more often. Now you're moving the goalposts to yes, we have an advantage when it comes to buffs and potions but it totally costs us just as much as everyone else!

Even if this is true, that all of you stealthers are only able to afford these buffs thanks to a farming toon (lol), its evidence of how shit this system is. People have to PvE just so they can PvP on a level playing field, that's a terrible design and people should stop defending it like it's somehow a good system. No matter what angle you look at this problem it's a shitty system.

Like I said - there will always be someone more motivated.
Buffs is just the start, we also have 6-12 or more weapons to switch out. Crafted, imbued, proced and enchanted. $$$. We used to have access to 331 dd charge items. But crybabies cried. We abuse side stuns and run throughs. We snare and dd cast or xbow you if we have to. We pair up or Zerg If we feel inclined. We will find a way to kill you so suck it up buttercup.

And yes - find me a stealther without an animist or bd or necro and I’ll show you a poor man. Minstrels can manage without one due to being able to have some fun with pets.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:42 PM by Kronin

I have said it once again and I will say it now.

If you run out untemp, unbuffed, uncharged expecting to win a 1v1 then you are better of playing Hello Kitty Island instead of coming to the forums and QQing about X class or this and that.

If you are to lazy to make a farm toon / salvager then its on you. I spent hours in beta playing and planing out a path to get my sneak where I wanted. We got together players who all had the same mindset and wanted to achieve it. Sure we did not take the fastest route but we are all set now that we have farm toons and our sneaks.

If you have a problem with what phoenix has done there are atleast 2 more servers you can go play on. I hear one has a place for people who want to run around unbuffed and uncharged.

Nothing wrong with stealthers move on and quit the QQ.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 11:02 PM by phixion

Before we start nerfing Assassins can we maybe look at BD's/Necro's/Minstrels/BM's?

Cheers!

Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:26 AM by WeaselSoup

Kronin wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 10:42 PM
I have said it once again and I will say it now.

If you run out untemp, unbuffed, uncharged expecting to win a 1v1 then you are better of playing Hello Kitty Island instead of coming to the forums and QQing about X class or this and that.

If you are to lazy to make a farm toon / salvager then its on you. I spent hours in beta playing and planing out a path to get my sneak where I wanted. We got together players who all had the same mindset and wanted to achieve it. Sure we did not take the fastest route but we are all set now that we have farm toons and our sneaks.

If you have a problem with what phoenix has done there are atleast 2 more servers you can go play on. I hear one has a place for people who want to run around unbuffed and uncharged.

Nothing wrong with stealthers move on and quit the QQ.

Again, a strawman. I'll just stop though because you all are too blinded to be able to see past your own bias. I never said most of the things you've added here. You see there's this common theme between the "2 other servers" you are mentioning? they are dead. hmmmmmmmmmmm

Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:35 AM by defiasbandit

WeaselSoup wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 8:43 PM
The normal game design is fine for this, yes i won't be as effective in terms of percentage of legitimate engagements. But when i get a 1v1, it should be legitimate. Since you all seem to think that the game being designed around the only 1v1 classes being those with stealth or those with speed then we'll just agree to disagree. Thus far, you all ALWAYS go back to the same argument. "its like that on live". Except it's not like that on live, not at all. Because we are always on the same playing field on the engagement and each life hardly costs me a thing. And each life doesn't cost me a relatively absurd amount of gold.

Instead we've created some shit system where the only ones who can afford to actually 1v1 are stealthers. Which, in my opinion, is NOT how the game is designed at all. You just don't want to lose your toys and all latch to the same shitty argument. For the record I wear scale armor, the 650 PA was from a 2h slash SB.

What you all are apparently telling me is if i want to solo I have to play stealther or maybe skald mins, (so if i want to play hib i have no options). This is quintessential shit game design and it's a design that's been created by the changes that i've outlined specifically benefitting one group of people. The amount of strawmen and poor argument i've already outlined as attempts to justify this design are only more evidence of how bad and truly unreasonable it is.

Exactly. Assassins are so overtuned herE and unlike how they were in SI. Rank 3 Assassins killing you in 3 seconds. Purge+vanish in case they screw up clicking PA.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:44 AM by Kronin

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:35 AM
WeaselSoup wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 8:43 PM
The normal game design is fine for this, yes i won't be as effective in terms of percentage of legitimate engagements. But when i get a 1v1, it should be legitimate. Since you all seem to think that the game being designed around the only 1v1 classes being those with stealth or those with speed then we'll just agree to disagree. Thus far, you all ALWAYS go back to the same argument. "its like that on live". Except it's not like that on live, not at all. Because we are always on the same playing field on the engagement and each life hardly costs me a thing. And each life doesn't cost me a relatively absurd amount of gold.

Instead we've created some shit system where the only ones who can afford to actually 1v1 are stealthers. Which, in my opinion, is NOT how the game is designed at all. You just don't want to lose your toys and all latch to the same shitty argument. For the record I wear scale armor, the 650 PA was from a 2h slash SB.

What you all are apparently telling me is if i want to solo I have to play stealther or maybe skald mins, (so if i want to play hib i have no options). This is quintessential shit game design and it's a design that's been created by the changes that i've outlined specifically benefitting one group of people. The amount of strawmen and poor argument i've already outlined as attempts to justify this design are only more evidence of how bad and truly unreasonable it is.

Exactly. Assassins are so overtuned herE and unlike how they were in SI. Rank 3 Assassins killing you in 3 seconds. Purge+vanish in case they screw up clicking PA.

A rank 1 assassin can kill a clothie in 3s what your point? lol

Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:54 AM by defiasbandit

Kronin wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:44 AM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:35 AM
WeaselSoup wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 8:43 PM
The normal game design is fine for this, yes i won't be as effective in terms of percentage of legitimate engagements. But when i get a 1v1, it should be legitimate. Since you all seem to think that the game being designed around the only 1v1 classes being those with stealth or those with speed then we'll just agree to disagree. Thus far, you all ALWAYS go back to the same argument. "its like that on live". Except it's not like that on live, not at all. Because we are always on the same playing field on the engagement and each life hardly costs me a thing. And each life doesn't cost me a relatively absurd amount of gold.

Instead we've created some shit system where the only ones who can afford to actually 1v1 are stealthers. Which, in my opinion, is NOT how the game is designed at all. You just don't want to lose your toys and all latch to the same shitty argument. For the record I wear scale armor, the 650 PA was from a 2h slash SB.

What you all are apparently telling me is if i want to solo I have to play stealther or maybe skald mins, (so if i want to play hib i have no options). This is quintessential shit game design and it's a design that's been created by the changes that i've outlined specifically benefitting one group of people. The amount of strawmen and poor argument i've already outlined as attempts to justify this design are only more evidence of how bad and truly unreasonable it is.

Exactly. Assassins are so overtuned herE and unlike how they were in SI. Rank 3 Assassins killing you in 3 seconds. Purge+vanish in case they screw up clicking PA.

A rank 1 assassin can kill a clothie in 3s what your point? lol

It's because Assassins are overtuned here. Assassins are heavily gear dependent and take a long time to level. How is it balanced that you can level and temp in a week on this server? Then run out with full temp+weapons at rank 1? That's not how DAOC was balanced or designed. You know its wrong.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 1:12 AM by Kronin

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:54 AM
Kronin wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:44 AM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:35 AM
Exactly. Assassins are so overtuned herE and unlike how they were in SI. Rank 3 Assassins killing you in 3 seconds. Purge+vanish in case they screw up clicking PA.

A rank 1 assassin can kill a clothie in 3s what your point? lol

It's because Assassins are overtuned here. Assassins are heavily gear dependent and take a long time to level. How is it balanced that you can level and temp in a week on this server? Then run out with full temp+weapons at rank 1? That's not how DAOC was balanced or designed. You know its wrong.

I guess assassins was overtuned on the other server when i would kill clothie in 3s also with no buffs and charges... lol oh yea and no si there.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 1:17 AM by Ceen

If you run a straight line right to the milegate you get a PA. Somehow I manage to run like 20 m next to the road paning my camera jumping all those imba assasins for easy RP.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 3:26 AM by krycek

Thinking that daoc was balanced and designed around people not having gear is just a stupid thought process. How do you even hit submit after typing that stuff lol.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:16 AM by Druth

krycek wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 3:26 AM
Thinking that daoc was balanced and designed around people not having gear is just a stupid thought process. How do you even hit submit after typing that stuff lol.

I think it's a trend to both argue what DaoC is meant to be, and think it should remain to be so on this server.
Instead of focussing on what makes the game fun.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:48 AM by krycek

Druth wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:16 AM
krycek wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 3:26 AM
Thinking that daoc was balanced and designed around people not having gear is just a stupid thought process. How do you even hit submit after typing that stuff lol.

I think it's a trend to both argue what DaoC is meant to be, and think it should remain to be so on this server.
Instead of focussing on what makes the game fun.

I've been having a lot of fun. Do I like using potions and charges? Hell nah. But that's the way it is. Can either accept that and adjust how you play here or well..ya know.
Not trying to be a smartass. I did the latter option on uthgarde cuz I just wasn't having fun there ironically because of the potions. Thankfully they have the 100 charge combined stat and regen ones here that make it less tedious.

Back on topic though. The arguments for assassin's being overtuned are pretty lack luster. So far we have them being OP because they can use potions and have templates. Only good reason so far has been dot swap spamming. I'd suggest sticking to that one. I'd be all for some type of nerf to that myself. Maybe have the dot not do damage on the initial tic or if the poison is already on someone you can't put a fresh one on. Even that is classic though so would be a hard sell. Good luck!

Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:27 AM by Druth

krycek wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:48 AM
Back on topic though. The arguments for assassin's being overtuned are pretty lack luster. So far we have them being OP because they can use potions and have templates. Only good reason so far has been dot swap spamming. I'd suggest sticking to that one. I'd be all for some type of nerf to that myself. Maybe have the dot not do damage on the initial tic or if the poison is already on someone you can't put a fresh one on. Even that is classic though so would be a hard sell. Good luck!

Weapon swap and strafe PA are my two main problems, strafe in general is a problem though.

I think poison hits harder here due to no full buffs, but without weaponswap it would not be a problem.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 3:14 PM by Afuldan

Druth wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 8:27 AM
krycek wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:48 AM
Back on topic though. The arguments for assassin's being overtuned are pretty lack luster. So far we have them being OP because they can use potions and have templates. Only good reason so far has been dot swap spamming. I'd suggest sticking to that one. I'd be all for some type of nerf to that myself. Maybe have the dot not do damage on the initial tic or if the poison is already on someone you can't put a fresh one on. Even that is classic though so would be a hard sell. Good luck!

Weapon swap and strafe PA are my two main problems, strafe in general is a problem though.

I think poison hits harder here due to no full buffs, but without weaponswap it would not be a problem.

Poison hits harder here due to Viper. Weaponswap is nothing new as well, just made easier with /switch.

Also, how many are running to tasks that aren’t temped or even 50 that are getting nailed?

I got PA+CD than side stunned by a NS last night on warrior. Totally wrecked me because im not temped or high RR. I expect that. If I get temped and a decent RR and still get wrecked than there might be an issue.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 3:17 PM by Ganil

This is true, but you won't say that anymore when you realise that vanish a no counterplay (no mos, no stealthlore).

Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:13 PM by Sepplord

Ganil wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 3:17 PM
This is true, but you won't say that anymore when you realise that vanish a no counterplay (no mos, no stealthlore).

There is stealthlore, you can buy it from Merchants with phoenixclaws

Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:10 PM by Joc

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:54 AM
Kronin wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:44 AM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:35 AM
Exactly. Assassins are so overtuned herE and unlike how they were in SI. Rank 3 Assassins killing you in 3 seconds. Purge+vanish in case they screw up clicking PA.

A rank 1 assassin can kill a clothie in 3s what your point? lol

It's because Assassins are overtuned here. Assassins are heavily gear dependent and take a long time to level. How is it balanced that you can level and temp in a week on this server? Then run out with full temp+weapons at rank 1? That's not how DAOC was balanced or designed. You know its wrong.

All classes are gear dependant. Its not hard to get gear here, nor was it hard to get gear when SI was live. During live at this patch level the dragon was on farm every time it popped as were the SI epic dungeons. It was VERY easy for me to gear my inf and SB. The thing that gives more strength to assassins is the ability to purge CC more often. The damage numbers are the same as they always were at this patch level.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:51 PM by Cadebrennus

Joc wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 7:10 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:54 AM
Kronin wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:44 AM
A rank 1 assassin can kill a clothie in 3s what your point? lol

It's because Assassins are overtuned here. Assassins are heavily gear dependent and take a long time to level. How is it balanced that you can level and temp in a week on this server? Then run out with full temp+weapons at rank 1? That's not how DAOC was balanced or designed. You know its wrong.

All classes are gear dependant. Its not hard to get gear here, nor was it hard to get gear when SI was live. During live at this patch level the dragon was on farm every time it popped as were the SI epic dungeons. It was VERY easy for me to gear my inf and SB. The thing that gives more strength to assassins is the ability to purge CC more often. The damage numbers are the same as they always were at this patch level.

Actually no. Physical damage is lower than it was on live at 1.65/1.68. How much lower I can't exactly say. This is why Envenom and magic damage seem much higher in comparison and why Assassins are melting face like they are right now vs classes that only have physical damage output.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 9:09 PM by Joc

Assassin damage was much higher due to the full ability of viper when NF Ra's were in. Be glad Assassins don't have the full damage of viper. The problem really is new Ra's here along with a much lower timer on purge. Caster damage is roughly the same. Assassins still can't compete with small mans or any competent group. That is the same as its always been.

There are no speed warps and no charge RAs (which were part of the new Ra's that is now custom since its not allowed) to make melee trains so popular. Right now there are actually very balanced melee/caster groups running around. The result of fights right now is largely based on player skill (just like it always has been).

All in all the rvr, 8v8, and small man action is pretty even. Assassins are strong 1v1 as they always have been.

They new Ra's have created some problems for sure, but they have also solved problems and made it so that its far more competitive than it ever was at this patch level.

The biggest issue I see right now is Hib is too strong in keep defense. The staff is likely working on this I would assume. Overall RvR has never been more balanced though.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 10:05 PM by Ganil

I agree, but playing a solo archer is often infurating here xD. If the server wasn't that great, I would have quit long ago lol.
Btw, what a those stealth lore pots ? I didn't know about them. They might solve some issues I have with the game currently.

Edit: also the current iteration of Viper is the NF one. The OF one was a ns thing and different. There is 0 reason to have it on this server, but I think the nerfed one is sort of fair.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 12:22 AM by keen

How did they nerf with viper here?

Mon 11 Feb 2019 12:38 AM by Stimmed

How can an argument for stealthers being OP seriously be "they get leveled to fast and templated"....You realize the games not changing. So if it took them 3 more months to level and template then come out there still going to do the same damage now? Even if a solo caster is running PD9 or what ever and an assassin lands perf its pretty much over. That whole argument is pointless?

Change weapon swapping. Please do I'm happy to not have it as it currently is. Or so it wont apply the inital dot on swap only extend your dot on the current target. That's more then fine.

Take away switch it wont change anything for most ppl.

Hell remove vanish. Sweet 5 more Ras I can use.

But you know what? All this wont stop all the big burst your talking about when most assasins 3 shot a caster its not from poison swapping. When they drop a tank in 5-6 seconds its not from that either.

Always look ahead. Everyone is rr1 right now. Less ras so stealthers are stronger. When everyone is on average rr6+ with purge 2/3/4/5 etc assassins become not as effective I feel.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:46 AM by inoeth

Stimmed wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 12:38 AM
How can an argument for stealthers being OP seriously be "they get leveled to fast and templated"....You realize the games not changing. So if it took them 3 more months to level and template then come out there still going to do the same damage now? Even if a solo caster is running PD9 or what ever and an assassin lands perf its pretty much over. That whole argument is pointless?

Change weapon swapping. Please do I'm happy to not have it as it currently is. Or so it wont apply the inital dot on swap only extend your dot on the current target. That's more then fine.

Take away switch it wont change anything for most ppl.

Hell remove vanish. Sweet 5 more Ras I can use.

But you know what? All this wont stop all the big burst your talking about when most assasins 3 shot a caster its not from poison swapping. When they drop a tank in 5-6 seconds its not from that either.

Always look ahead. Everyone is rr1 right now. Less ras so stealthers are stronger. When everyone is on average rr6+ with purge 2/3/4/5 etc assassins become not as effective I feel.

purge is not going to help you when poison is applied on every swing. assassins will even get stronger with rr.

but im with you in terms of poison nerf. imo apply a poison is ok, but it needs to be changed so that reapplying it does not tick on hit.... it should only reset the timer.
im not sure if thats difficult to code because it may applies to all dots in the game, but imo this nerf should only affect weapon poisons. maybe its more easy to add something like "target alrdy has that effect"

Mon 11 Feb 2019 8:21 AM by Druth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 6:13 PM
Ganil wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Feb 2019 3:17 PM
This is true, but you won't say that anymore when you realise that vanish a no counterplay (no mos, no stealthlore).

There is stealthlore, you can buy it from Merchants with phoenixclaws

Not viable counter if you have to farm for it, and in no way easy to get.
And even then it's not very strong.

Lets make poisons require tears to get, might not be a problem now, but when epic raids slow down it will get in high demand.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 6:35 PM by krycek

Vanish is no different than SoS. Actually it's worse cuz you can't do anything for 30 second's after you use it and it isn't a group wide RA. Maybe we should get rid of both. Everyone should just take their zerging's and like it.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 12:40 AM by Kronin

I recently got vanish and feel dirty when I use it lol.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:07 AM by Stimmed

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:46 AM
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 12:38 AM
How can an argument for stealthers being OP seriously be "they get leveled to fast and templated"....You realize the games not changing. So if it took them 3 more months to level and template then come out there still going to do the same damage now? Even if a solo caster is running PD9 or what ever and an assassin lands perf its pretty much over. That whole argument is pointless?

Change weapon swapping. Please do I'm happy to not have it as it currently is. Or so it wont apply the inital dot on swap only extend your dot on the current target. That's more then fine.

Take away switch it wont change anything for most ppl.

Hell remove vanish. Sweet 5 more Ras I can use.

But you know what? All this wont stop all the big burst your talking about when most assasins 3 shot a caster its not from poison swapping. When they drop a tank in 5-6 seconds its not from that either.

Always look ahead. Everyone is rr1 right now. Less ras so stealthers are stronger. When everyone is on average rr6+ with purge 2/3/4/5 etc assassins become not as effective I feel.

purge is not going to help you when poison is applied on every swing. assassins will even get stronger with rr.

but im with you in terms of poison nerf. imo apply a poison is ok, but it needs to be changed so that reapplying it does not tick on hit.... it should only reset the timer.
im not sure if thats difficult to code because it may applies to all dots in the game, but imo this nerf should only affect weapon poisons. maybe its more easy to add something like "target alrdy has that effect"

I don't agree. I feel applying a dot poison sure after purge is always going to happen now or later. But if you perf/cd a tank disease swap enervating is on with a dot then he purges CD. You now need to go back reapply enervating dot disease all again is what im saying. More ppl with high purge means that happens more often. Right now no one even has purge up or even has it to use for this. When ppl are alot higher rr they can do this more often slowing down a assassins dmg by making them re apply more then just dots.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:33 AM by inoeth

Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 3:07 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:46 AM
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Mon 11 Feb 2019 12:38 AM
How can an argument for stealthers being OP seriously be "they get leveled to fast and templated"....You realize the games not changing. So if it took them 3 more months to level and template then come out there still going to do the same damage now? Even if a solo caster is running PD9 or what ever and an assassin lands perf its pretty much over. That whole argument is pointless?

Change weapon swapping. Please do I'm happy to not have it as it currently is. Or so it wont apply the inital dot on swap only extend your dot on the current target. That's more then fine.

Take away switch it wont change anything for most ppl.

Hell remove vanish. Sweet 5 more Ras I can use.

But you know what? All this wont stop all the big burst your talking about when most assasins 3 shot a caster its not from poison swapping. When they drop a tank in 5-6 seconds its not from that either.

Always look ahead. Everyone is rr1 right now. Less ras so stealthers are stronger. When everyone is on average rr6+ with purge 2/3/4/5 etc assassins become not as effective I feel.

purge is not going to help you when poison is applied on every swing. assassins will even get stronger with rr.

but im with you in terms of poison nerf. imo apply a poison is ok, but it needs to be changed so that reapplying it does not tick on hit.... it should only reset the timer.
im not sure if thats difficult to code because it may applies to all dots in the game, but imo this nerf should only affect weapon poisons. maybe its more easy to add something like "target alrdy has that effect"

I don't agree. I feel applying a dot poison sure after purge is always going to happen now or later. But if you perf/cd a tank disease swap enervating is on with a dot then he purges CD. You now need to go back reapply enervating dot disease all again is what im saying. More ppl with high purge means that happens more often. Right now no one even has purge up or even has it to use for this. When ppl are alot higher rr they can do this more often slowing down a assassins dmg by making them re apply more then just dots.

Why do have to reapply? For that they can kill a tank easily? Assaassins are not supposed to kill tanks anyway..... But still i dont get your point, i did not say that reapplying should be forbitten as a whole but it has to be nerfed that dot can not tick on hit because that literally 50-100 (depending on if mh only or both hand reaply poison) dmg more per swing.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:02 PM by krycek

Poisons are a key tool for assassin's. Tanks are probably the hardest target for assassin's so you want to use every tool available. If they purge that mean's they got rid of all the poisons. So you reapply your poison's. Hope that answered your question about why you need to reapply poisons.