Necros and their issue

Started 7 Feb 2019
by Muse
in Suggestions
In the current state of the Game, necros have a really really hard Time to find rvr grps. Even if you try to Build a grp, People dont be up for even trying to run with a Necro.
Since there are so many Custom changes to certain classes to make them viable for rvr (pala, Champ etc with det), Necro could Need a small boost in some things. I am Not Talking about one on one situations - for the People that claim Necro is op!

1. issue: the pet Takes full duration on any cc, u cant even do anyth8ng about it, besides purging. That was the reason why mythic implemented the mezz/ Root immunity on the lvl 4 pet. I am Not Talking about giving this ability on this Server, Bit Maybe add something like a 40% mezz/Root Damp to the pet. You cant denie a cc like on a normal class, bec if you turn the pet just folows and is beh8nd you.

2. issue: if your pet gets rupted, and you are trying to cast, you Consume Power. This is a Huge Problem in a longer fight, After using con debuffs, lifetaps and stuff. You got low Power, try to cast getting rupted and consuming Power wirhout any effect. Maybe add an interrupt timer to the pet without using Power? Also u dont See any Message from the pet if u get rupted

3. maybe add a small pet stun, like on live and like sm/ druid pets have.

4. issue: the casttime of the lifetap and powertap is on 3.0 Second, rm class got. the dd adjusted bec its 3.0 Second. Make ist atleast 2.8s. A normal caster is nuking twice when im nuking once with 330 dex and moa6.

5. issue: the aoe snare gives immunity, which completely denies the use of an aoe spell to rupt, when a 10s duration spell gives snare /Root immunity.

Toss in some ideAs, since there are so many custom changes to certain classes to make them abit more sexy to grps. You dont See any necros in rvr grps, Mostly solo but well.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 5:34 AM by Numatic
Muse wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:22 AM
1. issue: the pet Takes full duration on any cc, u cant even do anyth8ng about it, besides purging. That was the reason why mythic implemented the mezz/ Root immunity on the lvl 4 pet. I am Not Talking about giving this ability on this Server, Bit Maybe add something like a 40% mezz/Root Damp to the pet. You cant denie a cc like on a normal class, bec if you turn the pet just folows and is beh8nd you.

So you can do something about it. You can purge. There are plenty of classes with purge and nothing else. You're a caster and tank in one. Not even sure if I would be okay with necro have determination.
2. issue: if your pet gets rupted, and you are trying to cast, you Consume Power. This is a Huge Problem in a longer fight, After using con debuffs, lifetaps and stuff. You got low Power, try to cast getting rupted and consuming Power wirhout any effect. Maybe add an interrupt timer to the pet without using Power? Also u dont See any Message from the pet if u get rupted
This should be a bug if it's not. Understandable.
3. maybe add a small pet stun, like on live and like sm/ druid pets have.
But you're not exactly a pet class. If you want to go that route then the druid pet should also have a nuke and insta life tap.
4. issue: the casttime of the lifetap and powertap is on 3.0 Second, rm class got. the dd adjusted bec its 3.0 Second. Make ist atleast 2.8s. A normal caster is nuking twice when im nuking once with 330 dex and moa6.

This is kind of a class limitation thing. Casters cant melee but you can. You cant have 330 DeX affecting swing speed and cast speed, then have your pet buffed and be an insane machine of death.
Toss in some ideAs, since there are so many custom changes to certain classes to make them abit more sexy to grps. You dont See any necros in rvr grps, Mostly solo but well.

People seem to lose perspective sometimes. Basically what you are asking is this.

1. Be the fastest lvling class in the game.
2. Nearly unbeatable 1v1 against 90% of the classes in the game
3. Reduced CC
4. Reduced cast time
5. Group viability in RvR

Every class in the game has a weakness. For a necro, they dont bring anything extra to a group in RvR. But they are a beast in 1v1 and are the fastest lvling class in the game. If you want more of the other, you need to give up something in return. If you want those things, then you need to have reduced hp and melee absorption, and take away your power tap nuke. Lifetap will be on a 10s cooldown. Doesnt sound good anymore right? This is the balance devs have to take into consideration when tweaking classes. I'm not trying to be mean or rain on your parade, I just wanted to give a bit of a difference in perspective.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 5:55 AM by Muse
Numatic wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 5:34 AM
Muse wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:22 AM
1. issue: the pet Takes full duration on any cc, u cant even do anyth8ng about it, besides purging. That was the reason why mythic implemented the mezz/ Root immunity on the lvl 4 pet. I am Not Talking about giving this ability on this Server, Bit Maybe add something like a 40% mezz/Root Damp to the pet. You cant denie a cc like on a normal class, bec if you turn the pet just folows and is beh8nd you.

So you can do something about it. You can purge. There are plenty of classes with purge and nothing else. You're a caster and tank in one. Not even sure if I would be okay with necro have determination.
2. issue: if your pet gets rupted, and you are trying to cast, you Consume Power. This is a Huge Problem in a longer fight, After using con debuffs, lifetaps and stuff. You got low Power, try to cast getting rupted and consuming Power wirhout any effect. Maybe add an interrupt timer to the pet without using Power? Also u dont See any Message from the pet if u get rupted
This should be a bug if it's not. Understandable.
3. maybe add a small pet stun, like on live and like sm/ druid pets have.
But you're not exactly a pet class. If you want to go that route then the druid pet should also have a nuke and insta life tap.
4. issue: the casttime of the lifetap and powertap is on 3.0 Second, rm class got. the dd adjusted bec its 3.0 Second. Make ist atleast 2.8s. A normal caster is nuking twice when im nuking once with 330 dex and moa6.

This is kind of a class limitation thing. Casters cant melee but you can. You cant have 330 DeX affecting swing speed and cast speed, then have your pet buffed and be an insane machine of death.
Toss in some ideAs, since there are so many custom changes to certain classes to make them abit more sexy to grps. You dont See any necros in rvr grps, Mostly solo but well.

People seem to lose perspective sometimes. Basically what you are asking is this.

1. Be the fastest lvling class in the game.
2. Nearly unbeatable 1v1 against 90% of the classes in the game
3. Reduced CC
4. Reduced cast time
5. Group viability in RvR

Every class in the game has a weakness. For a necro, they dont bring anything extra to a group in RvR. But they are a beast in 1v1 and are the fastest lvling class in the game. If you want more of the other, you need to give up something in return. If you want those things, then you need to have reduced hp and melee absorption, and take away your power tap nuke. Lifetap will be on a 10s cooldown. Doesnt sound good anymore right? This is the balance devs have to take into consideration when tweaking classes. I'm not trying to be mean or rain on your parade, I just wanted to give a bit of a difference in perspective.

1. i dont give a fuck about pve, its the thing about pvp, who cares how fast u lvl anything to 50
2. as i said up top, im not talking about any 1v1 situations
3. the same thing counts for thane, champ and paladin. they made them to get det, to be atleast abit useful for the grp rvr. there are so many custom changes. Have you ever met an alb grp with a necro atm? more than once? There are things on the server clases shouldnt ahve access, SM with more specpoints to get demezz AND lifetap in cold, Wizard to make it more grp friendly and and and.
4. As i said, im just thinking off it, why did RM get the energy nuke reduced from 3.0 to 2.8/2.5 no idea, just to make it similar to other classes. The cast time from a necro slow as fuck.

You argue with 1v1 and pve wtf, who gives a fuck about this.

You talked about swingspeed gettin affected by dex, did u ever see how slow an abomination is hitting anyone? its like every 4 seconds or smthg.

Just tryin to bring the necro in a better position as it is now, a completely solo class besides the 0815 alb setups people use to run. 3 second casting time on a casting focused class is meh.
I dont want the class to be overpowered in any ways, they are maybe 1on1, but be honest, how often are u doin a 1on1 on a server like this.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 10:23 AM by warden50
As a small introduction I would like to thank Phoenix's staff for the great work on the overall server but mostly on Necromancers since they are light years away from the shitty/buged out class it was on live back then ! Thank you \o/

I just reached 6L0 with my Necro on this server and I used to play Necro aswell (10L3) on Live. I have to admit some of the things you are pointing are true but some are, not wrong, but may bring some imbalance.

First of all, lets face it, Necro is OP (I know what I am talking about).BUT it is mostly OP is you know few "tricks" that I would obviously not explain here since I do not want to open the pandora box. In another hand there is a reason why we dont see much necros in RvR : their group potential is bad compared to other class. The only "niche" spot you can get is in melee groups as AF debuff bot. If you play well you may be a good class to push behind the lines and rupt healers/casters. But yet you are subject to many "disavantages" such as :

-Necro pet takes 100% CC duration (by the way this is a bug, since resists should be taken into account so... Devs plz) so a tank with determination/stoicism would do a better job.
-Pet is very strong against melee hits but weak to magic damage. So a tank with AoM would do a better job.
-As mentioned, spells are on a 3s basis and make it "bad" nuker long range compared to other casters.
-The snare (single and aoe) are giving root/snare immunity (including peel) which makes it even worse if you have the bad idea to use it.
-Deathsight spec is the only viable spec (too viable solo ?). Pbae is for fun/PVE and Pbae dot is for troll/zerg leech.

What I would suggest is this :
-Give some pets roles (immun reduction, cast speed, tankiness, abomination with proc, deseas proc etc...) in the spirit of live pets.
-Fix the CC reduction from resists bug
-Fix the resist and resist chance not showing up in logs (I would like to know how unlucky I am)
-Improve at least PBAE spec like live (live gave a 309 delve pbae like other pbae class). Lets face it, 209 is a joke if you take AoE mechanics into account.
-Make the snare (base and spec aoe) on a different "immunity" class than peel.

I dont know if I brought a stone to the building here or if I will be stoned to death but that was what I had to say. GO NECRO
Thu 7 Feb 2019 11:17 AM by Muse
To be honest, its OP against 2-3 enemies aka solo gameplay, there is no way a necro is OP in a 8v8 gameplay - Solo ofc, but that is not the thing i want to improve tho.

Thanks for the input you made, u stated some stuff which could be adjusted to make it abit more friendly to play in certain situations.
Maybe GM's could give some input if those suggestions are a flop so we can stop trying to get something going or if it could be looked at.
@Uthred @gruenesschaf
Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:15 PM by Luluko
necro just shouldnt be in rvr, I dont even bother fighting them if they arent pveing and have a few mobs on their ass and even then they could kill you. If the insta lifetap would be on cd like suggested or the shade would be attackeable like it is for cab then I wouldnt have a problem if necro was tweaked a little. But lets just face it the pet absorbtion especially towards melee attacks is just too ridiculous. Especially buffed and even without all the toa stats.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 2:59 PM by teiloh
Luluko wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:15 PM
necro just shouldnt be in rvr, I dont even bother fighting them if they arent pveing and have a few mobs on their ass and even then they could kill you. If the insta lifetap would be on cd like suggested or the shade would be attackeable like it is for cab then I wouldnt have a problem if necro was tweaked a little. But lets just face it the pet absorbtion especially towards melee attacks is just too ridiculous. Especially buffed and even without all the toa stats.

How's a Necro being buffed on this server?

And OP did ae snare leave root immunity on live? I don't recall it doing so but that's very ,very faint memory
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:47 PM by Luluko
teiloh wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 2:59 PM
Luluko wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:15 PM
necro just shouldnt be in rvr, I dont even bother fighting them if they arent pveing and have a few mobs on their ass and even then they could kill you. If the insta lifetap would be on cd like suggested or the shade would be attackeable like it is for cab then I wouldnt have a problem if necro was tweaked a little. But lets just face it the pet absorbtion especially towards melee attacks is just too ridiculous. Especially buffed and even without all the toa stats.

How's a Necro being buffed on this server?

And OP did ae snare leave root immunity on live? I don't recall it doing so but that's very ,very faint memory
necro has selfbuffs and with a cleric in duo they are pretty much unkillable and can kill you 5 times over before you even manged to beat down a cleric and his heal instants
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:25 PM by teiloh
Luluko wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:47 PM
necro has selfbuffs and with a cleric in duo they are pretty much unkillable and can kill you 5 times over before you even manged to beat down a cleric and his heal instants

A Necro/Cleric duo is free rps for any group with speed. If you're going after them as an Assassin, your Con debuff is stronger than all their buffs combined.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 5:59 PM by Luluko
teiloh wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:25 PM
Luluko wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:47 PM
necro has selfbuffs and with a cleric in duo they are pretty much unkillable and can kill you 5 times over before you even manged to beat down a cleric and his heal instants

A Necro/Cleric duo is free rps for any group with speed. If you're going after them as an Assassin, your Con debuff is stronger than all their buffs combined.

nice strawman argument
Thu 7 Feb 2019 6:24 PM by teiloh
Luluko wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 5:59 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:25 PM
Luluko wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:47 PM
necro has selfbuffs and with a cleric in duo they are pretty much unkillable and can kill you 5 times over before you even manged to beat down a cleric and his heal instants

A Necro/Cleric duo is free rps for any group with speed. If you're going after them as an Assassin, your Con debuff is stronger than all their buffs combined.

nice strawman argument

Disagree? How is a speedless duo going to survive?
Thu 7 Feb 2019 6:35 PM by Luluko
teiloh wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 6:24 PM
Luluko wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 5:59 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:25 PM
A Necro/Cleric duo is free rps for any group with speed. If you're going after them as an Assassin, your Con debuff is stronger than all their buffs combined.

nice strawman argument

Disagree? How is a speedless duo going to survive?
there are a few duos like that in fz doing pve for gold/rogs they dont need speed if they dont move far from the portkeep
Fri 8 Feb 2019 8:50 AM by kvothe
Things that make necro unviable in groups:

*No utility (cant change that pretty much)
*Takes full CC duration
*Power is consumed before the cast hence every rupt drains your mana

I think the last two are simple fixes.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:02 AM by Muse
bump,

Can a GM give any statement, so we know if its even worth typing anything in the Suggestion Thread?
Fri 8 Feb 2019 1:35 PM by warden50
Muse wrote:
Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:02 AM
bump,

Can a GM give any statement, so we know if its even worth typing anything in the Suggestion Thread?

I am Wardden and i support this post
Fri 8 Feb 2019 2:02 PM by Azrael
Muse wrote: bump,

Can a GM give any statement, so we know if its even worth typing anything in the Suggestion Thread?

Just a day and you already bump and expect response from staff nice.
Would you sacrifice any ability to get better group abilities or do you only want a char who is already Uber solo to be Uber in groups too? Nice way to think.
You said you do not care about solo/smallmen, but many people do, *wooosh* you see how the table turned?
Somenone stated it already in another thread. BD, Necro and Animisit should not be allowed to participate in rvr. Would agree with that.
edit:typos
Fri 8 Feb 2019 3:26 PM by Muse
yes, ofc i would sacrifice anything, just tell me what is OP on the necro, besides the 500 range lifedrain from the shade in a 1v1 (lol - every class can outrun a necro and you cant even do anything against it - you are not forced to fight a necro because you can simply run away)

And yes again, i would atleast expect a small statement if its even worth to do suggestions, a simple "yes, we take a look at it," or "no, there is nothing we do on the necro atm" would be fine for me.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:04 PM by Isavyr
Muse wrote:
Fri 8 Feb 2019 3:26 PM
just tell me what is OP on the necro, besides the 500 range lifedrain from the shade in a 1v1 (lol - every class can outrun a necro and you cant even do anything against it - you are not forced to fight a necro because you can simply run away)

I saw this same argument made from Left Axe users pre 1.62. I'm not convinced. If it's overpowered, it's overpowered. The solution shouldn't be to run away.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:18 PM by gruenesschaf
Immunities / reductions based on pet won't come and resists from items on the necro / buffs on the pet should already affect the CC duration. The mana consumption happens when it should but that's something that could be changed to something more friendly.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:20 PM by rubaduck
1. Necromancer is a unique pet caster class, not a hybrid class like wardens, champions, thanes, etc that split their core offense and defense utility in to different branches and roles. You can't justify any CC dampening on necromancer what so ever, because you are both the safest, and the most fragile player at the same time. You need to manage your pet in a cumbersome and unique way to make it work, and in some areas this class shines, while in other areas it is complete garbage. I am not saying necros are garbage, because I know they have a place in the RvR meta, its just nerfed out of a very good reason. You use the combination of words like "Normal classes" and refer to classes like Thane and Paladin. They are hybrid, and not normal. An eldritch, or a wizard, or a warrior or a hero is a "normal" class. They have one specific role that befits their arch-type.

2. This I remember from live, and hopefully gets fixed to be more friendly. The reasoning behind it is that you. as the ghost are the manapool holder, not the pet.

3. NO! CC is a powerful tool. By that I mean, it can make or break a class. Look at our dear minstrel, a high skill gap class indeed but they get a weaker offense with CC to keep them vital in combat and if you ask me a TAD to much offensive too. Try to imagine what would happen if a necromancer pet could hard-CC on a RNG based system. It would first of all be very useless in group play, since you only melee when you REALLY have to, but in a 1v1 situation you would go from a class that can solo 80-90% of the classes in the game to 100% just because of that RNG. It would literally break the class. The thought is good, but the mechanic is just so broken that it will cause more harm then good. Everyone likes to feel overpowered, and you really do as a necromancer in 1v1.

4. You have 1 castable from pet, and 1 instant tap from shade. So in those 3 seconds it takes you to cast 1 lifetap with the pet, you can cast two. Still think a faster cast is justifiable, and if so how?

5. Just because the enemy has immunity to a certain kind of CC, doesn't mean your spell removes the ability to interrupt with it. I know this very well, because I root the living ¤(/# out of things my self and will spam that root it if I have to just to keep certain classes interrupted. Snare and root shares the same timer.

One of the most powerful benefits of a necro, is their support. You won't be the heaviest nuker, you won't be the strongest group player, but in your nuke spec you have two things that are HEAVILY needed for groups in albion. ABS buff and a power transfer. If people don't want to take the advantage of this, then they are not thinking outside of the box. Most people that comes from live has forgotten the old necro, but still remember how crap it was in New Frontiers, but they forgot that we are playing in OF and that necros don't have the same movement problems here as they had in NF and just neglect them. Necros was nerfed in beta because they provided so much utility to one certain type of alb group, and it's a damn shame that a nerf like that is the nail in the coffin for players.
Sat 9 Feb 2019 11:10 AM by kvothe
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:18 PM
Immunities / reductions based on pet won't come and resists from items on the necro / buffs on the pet should already affect the CC duration. The mana consumption happens when it should but that's something that could be changed to something more friendly.
That would make them a lot more viable in regular RvR grps and helping them out of their niche spot without adding any damage or other abilities.
I would love to see it happen.
Mon 25 Feb 2019 11:37 AM by kvothe
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:18 PM
Immunities / reductions based on pet won't come and resists from items on the necro / buffs on the pet should already affect the CC duration. The mana consumption happens when it should but that's something that could be changed to something more friendly.
Any news? This is the one change which would boost necros grp potantial by a lot.
Currently I'm perma oom since every rupt amnesia what ever costs mana.
Mon 25 Feb 2019 6:27 PM by teiloh
The loss of PW interrupts is a pretty strong blow against Necromancers in RvR. IMO, this was a feature that was left in the game for decades, Mythic even made it a part of their class mechanics later (Searing Pet, deliberately adding poison to stalker pet so it interrupts every tick).

I can understand why it was removed, but it is a balance change, not a bug fix, and those classes/pets/specs impacted should be adjusted to compensate.
Tue 26 Feb 2019 8:06 AM by jhaerik
Luluko wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 5:59 PM
teiloh wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:25 PM
Luluko wrote:
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:47 PM
necro has selfbuffs and with a cleric in duo they are pretty much unkillable and can kill you 5 times over before you even manged to beat down a cleric and his heal instants

A Necro/Cleric duo is free rps for any group with speed. If you're going after them as an Assassin, your Con debuff is stronger than all their buffs combined.

nice strawman argument

FYI The whole citing "strawman arugment" crap doesn't work outside of highschool debate team.

Necro/Cleric is a terrible visible speedless duo. That is reality. Take your debate team nonsense and talk to someone who cares about it.
Tue 26 Feb 2019 11:59 AM by relvinian
There is an issue with the aoe pain snare.

On beta it did not give immunity and the two snares stacked.

So you cast the aoe snare then the other snare and it reduced speed.

Now you get immunity. Also, with determination, the aoe snare is reduced to nothing.

Either the aoe snare should not give immunity or it should not be effected by det.

Also, while talking pain, the dots are so supposed to interrupt, this is a custom server where they do not.


BTW, even the way things are necros are pretty darn strong.

A couple pro tips for the necro:

1. You can cast a dd of an item in shade form. so when they bard mezes you, then the chanter stuns you, nuke the chanter with ur dd, this will screw him up enough that you might get to quick cast a couple life taps on him.
2. Option 2 is to use a dd spell on a mob, which maybe it will attack u and break the mez.
3. You can use that dd on a caster or healer and at least get some damage in, in case that person dies.
4. You can use your debuff and attack a mob, get mez, then the mob breaks ur cc.

Hope that helps.
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