Hunter/Archer Review and some suggestions

Started 3 Feb 2019
by Kuschell
in Suggestions
Hey guys i rarely post something but first off all thx for the Server its awesome to get the old DAOC feeling back.
Iam playing currently one of my favorite class the Hunter since my playstyle is 95% solo and i don't like to run in the zerg i have some suggestions.

The issues i want to point out are as follow:

- Assasins have a 250 range to see me while i see them at 150 range nearly no way to start with a critshot
--> my suggestion would be to make it even no stealth bonus for assassins vs archer, its a real pain and has no reason for it.

- Lack of defense. I have to play full buffed with charges to have a chance to win vs a assassin and most of the other classes. Even then i have only a 50% chance vs assassins when ip/purge is up else i might have a 30% since both have a after evade stun which is just too devastating. I mean its still possible to outplay a visible class with kite but stealther are really though.
--> my suggestion here is give archer something like pd maybe a weaker version, because assassins also have a weaker version of viper it might be reasonable.
--> Dodger only for Archer classes, this would boost the defense and make them more playable in melee. Since tbh. 85% of my fights are just melee.
--> Or oldschool ra avoid pain if passive bonus is to mighty, this combined with the nf ra remedy.

Defense penetration Another point is the defense penetration issue with bow/meele. Most time when i shoot sth with shield it gets blocked/evaded of course i shot the first one into the back but thats it . Then most of my hits just gets blocked or evaded its a real pain to deal some dmg.
--> raise the weaponskill or the stat which is important for defense penetration of archer classes. Not sure how this for ranger with dual wield.

Damage The dmg is a bit low with bow/meele i mean this point has lowest priority but i think because its still ok. But my Critshot hits if iam lucky for 500 dmg on a caster/stealth and compared to that my spear hits for 180-230 with a 5.1 speed yellow self buff d/q, red s/c charge and bases from potions. Compared to assassins its kinda low for the attack speed of 2h.

This are my points and suggestions feel free to comment. I also appreciate some advice if you have a solution for that. Sorry for my bad english but its not my native language. Greetings
Sun 3 Feb 2019 1:32 PM by inoeth
although i like to have hunter a bit bumped up i think all in all the hunter is in a good place now i would also suggest to give him an anytime ASR combo so the hunter can compete with almost any other stealther
i wont mind some defense too since with of ra we had avoid pain and dodger and now we dont have anything
Sun 3 Feb 2019 2:58 PM by Isavyr
Archers already hit harder, and have greater range, than assassins. Archers excel in open battles where they can join in unnoticed. Assassin's niche, meanwhile, is to seek out these fringe targets, whether it be the archers, or casters and healers.

If archers > assassins, then it would be largely pointless to play an assassin as an archer would largely do everything an assassin does, but better, and with more safety.
Sun 3 Feb 2019 3:11 PM by Zansobar
A weakened Physical Defense RA is already available on Phoenix, however, it is not available to archers, though it is available to casters.
Sun 3 Feb 2019 3:45 PM by Isavyr
Kuschell wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Feb 2019 11:59 AM
Defense penetration Another point is the defense penetration issue with bow/meele. Most time when i shoot sth with shield it gets blocked/evaded of course i shot the first one into the back but thats it . Then most of my hits just gets blocked or evaded its a real pain to deal some dmg.
--> raise the weaponskill or the stat which is important for defense penetration of archer classes. Not sure how this for ranger with dual wield.

Damage The dmg is a bit low with bow/meele i mean this point has lowest priority but i think because its still ok. But my Critshot hits if iam lucky for 500 dmg on a caster/stealth and compared to that my spear hits for 180-230 with a 5.1 speed yellow self buff d/q, red s/c charge and bases from potions. Compared to assassins its kinda low for the attack speed of 2h.

This are my points and suggestions feel free to comment. I also appreciate some advice if you have a solution for that. Sorry for my bad english but its not my native language. Greetings

2 more points:

1) DAOC was designed with rock/paper/scissors philosophy, and archery wasn't intended to be "gank-all" class that some players want it to be. This is why they have poor defense-pentration against shields, and furthermore added "engage" ability to shield-users, guaranteeing 75% block-rate against archers. If you don't like that, feel free to choose different targets.

2) Bow damage damage is > assassins and is definitely not "kinda low".
Sun 3 Feb 2019 3:50 PM by Druth
Archers suffers from better stealth classes, not being weak themselves.

Minstrel, and assassins with easy to land PA (can strafe and not miss) cycle poison + vanish.

Why play archer when you want to play stealther?
Sun 3 Feb 2019 5:31 PM by tzaaaaa
hello all, my non bug related toughts on archers are this:
- too much block rate on non shield specialized classes
-unstealthing while drawing a critshot.... lol it has always been a nonsense bullshit

- too unfair stealth mechanics (250 vs 125):
i don't get the point of this customization, with new RAs i could choose to see or not to see other stealthed classes with boosted detection using a lot of my realmskillpoints, why we can't choose to do so here? getting in sight of an sb inf ns = sure death, why i MUST die even if i'm an experienced player just for a penalizing mechanics? who is saying that daoc is a scissor-rock-paper game clearly doesn't have a deep knowledge of the game.
what class should be an easy kill for an archer as an archer is for a sb inf or ns ?
i'm not pretending a change that allows me to kill all the sb infs ns i see around, but a mechanics that allows me to have a chanche to escape to a melee stealthed attack.
250 range stealth detection for archers could be a fair change.
if i m fast to run i will be safe, if im slow i'm dead, but atleadt is based on the skill of the player and not on a precomposed mechanics.

- melee capabilities of archers should not be boosted, they are good as they are now, pretending to use a bow specialized class to beat a melee specialized class in a melee fight would be unfair to melee specialized class.
Sun 3 Feb 2019 5:58 PM by Quik
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Feb 2019 3:45 PM
Kuschell wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Feb 2019 11:59 AM
Defense penetration Another point is the defense penetration issue with bow/meele. Most time when i shoot sth with shield it gets blocked/evaded of course i shot the first one into the back but thats it . Then most of my hits just gets blocked or evaded its a real pain to deal some dmg.
--> raise the weaponskill or the stat which is important for defense penetration of archer classes. Not sure how this for ranger with dual wield.

Damage The dmg is a bit low with bow/meele i mean this point has lowest priority but i think because its still ok. But my Critshot hits if iam lucky for 500 dmg on a caster/stealth and compared to that my spear hits for 180-230 with a 5.1 speed yellow self buff d/q, red s/c charge and bases from potions. Compared to assassins its kinda low for the attack speed of 2h.

This are my points and suggestions feel free to comment. I also appreciate some advice if you have a solution for that. Sorry for my bad english but its not my native language. Greetings

2 more points:

1) DAOC was designed with rock/paper/scissors philosophy, and archery wasn't intended to be "gank-all" class that some players want it to be. This is why they have poor defense-pentration against shields, and furthermore added "engage" ability to shield-users, guaranteeing 75% block-rate against archers. If you don't like that, feel free to choose different targets.

2) Bow damage damage is > assassins and is definitely not "kinda low".

I would be careful with this statement.

I have played both a Ranger and a NS and I can say in Thid I do a LOT more dmg with my NS and poison+styles then I ever do with archery. I can't speak for higher levels though, but from what I hear from others, envenom is drastically better then archery.
Sun 3 Feb 2019 6:11 PM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Feb 2019 3:45 PM
Kuschell wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Feb 2019 11:59 AM
Defense penetration Another point is the defense penetration issue with bow/meele. Most time when i shoot sth with shield it gets blocked/evaded of course i shot the first one into the back but thats it . Then most of my hits just gets blocked or evaded its a real pain to deal some dmg.
--> raise the weaponskill or the stat which is important for defense penetration of archer classes. Not sure how this for ranger with dual wield.

Damage The dmg is a bit low with bow/meele i mean this point has lowest priority but i think because its still ok. But my Critshot hits if iam lucky for 500 dmg on a caster/stealth and compared to that my spear hits for 180-230 with a 5.1 speed yellow self buff d/q, red s/c charge and bases from potions. Compared to assassins its kinda low for the attack speed of 2h.

This are my points and suggestions feel free to comment. I also appreciate some advice if you have a solution for that. Sorry for my bad english but its not my native language. Greetings

2 more points:

1) DAOC was designed with rock/paper/scissors philosophy, and archery wasn't intended to be "gank-all" class that some players want it to be. This is why they have poor defense-pentration against shields, and furthermore added "engage" ability to shield-users, guaranteeing 75% block-rate against archers. If you don't like that, feel free to choose different targets.

2) Bow damage damage is > assassins and is definitely not "kinda low".


lol nobody said a word about gank all... also archers got all the tools in later patches so your arguments are invalid.
right now if you come near to an assassin you are dead as you always get hit by PA and you cant do sh*t about it....
i dont get why there are different ranges for stealth detection and archers have no tools to compensate. in classic there was at least true sight and when it comes to a melee fight with an assassin you had avoid pain.... now archers have nothing of this, pretty unfair.
also why do assassins have viper and vanish and archers dont get anything to survive but ip.

vs all other classes archers are not that weak
Sun 3 Feb 2019 11:30 PM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Feb 2019 6:11 PM
lol nobody said a word about gank all... also archers got all the tools in later patches so your arguments are invalid.
right now if you come near to an assassin you are dead as you always get hit by PA and you cant do sh*t about it....
i dont get why there are different ranges for stealth detection and archers have no tools to compensate. in classic there was at least true sight and when it comes to a melee fight with an assassin you had avoid pain.... now archers have nothing of this, pretty unfair.
also why do assassins have viper and vanish and archers dont get anything to survive but ip.

vs all other classes archers are not that weak

With constant poison swapping, (sorta feels exploity, but it's there nonetheless) an assassin may be able to bump their DPS above an archer. Otherwise I can say confidently, having done the tests during beta, that physically an archer will do significantly more DPS than an assassin--bow vs dual wield. In addition, it appears assassins' damage may have been touched as PA and some CS styles are about 20% weaker than they were in beta.

The reason I said "gank" is that when a poster argues for many weaknesses to be removed from their class, it appears to suggest they want to become the ultimate "ganker". It was addressed to how I understood the OP's comments.

Also, my comment isn't irrelevant just because Mythic added such and such abilities to the classes--they changed their design philosophy and went towards homogeneity. In addition, the frontiers changed, and 1v1 and small-man appeared to become a more valid play-style. This is partly conjecture, as I didn't play much past 2004, but that was my impression of the new pathing, towers, melee style & realm ability reworks.

In classic, classes were designed with particular niches, and it appears some players want their particular class empowered because they struggle with its shortcomings--but that's inherent in Rock Paper Scissor design.

And lastly, "just" IP? It's an incredibly strong ability--I don't know why you think a full HP bar is negligible.
Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:30 AM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Feb 2019 11:30 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Feb 2019 6:11 PM
lol nobody said a word about gank all... also archers got all the tools in later patches so your arguments are invalid.
right now if you come near to an assassin you are dead as you always get hit by PA and you cant do sh*t about it....
i dont get why there are different ranges for stealth detection and archers have no tools to compensate. in classic there was at least true sight and when it comes to a melee fight with an assassin you had avoid pain.... now archers have nothing of this, pretty unfair.
also why do assassins have viper and vanish and archers dont get anything to survive but ip.

vs all other classes archers are not that weak

With constant poison swapping, (sorta feels exploity, but it's there nonetheless) an assassin may be able to bump their DPS above an archer. Otherwise I can say confidently, having done the tests during beta, that physically an archer will do significantly more DPS than an assassin--bow vs dual wield. In addition, it appears assassins' damage may have been touched as PA and some CS styles are about 20% weaker than they were in beta.

The reason I said "gank" is that when a poster argues for many weaknesses to be removed from their class, it appears to suggest they want to become the ultimate "ganker". It was addressed to how I understood the OP's comments.

Also, my comment isn't irrelevant just because Mythic added such and such abilities to the classes--they changed their design philosophy and went towards homogeneity. In addition, the frontiers changed, and 1v1 and small-man appeared to become a more valid play-style. This is partly conjecture, as I didn't play much past 2004, but that was my impression of the new pathing, towers, melee style & realm ability reworks.

In classic, classes were designed with particular niches, and it appears some players want their particular class empowered because they struggle with its shortcomings--but that's inherent in Rock Paper Scissor design.

And lastly, "just" IP? It's an incredibly strong ability--I don't know why you think a full HP bar is negligible.

and was it a good design? i think no, it was very poor thats why it got changed very early (game was released 2001, changes appeared 2004)

yes ip is strong but it becomes weak when you always have to fire it while fighting assassins. also ip is no iwin button, especially vs assassins, while viper and weapon swap is really absurdly powerfull.

an average archer has about 1600 hp now imagine PA=500 dmg+con debuff( another 500hp) you are now left with around 600 hp and then they hit you with 120 mh+100 offhand+ 60 dot .... thats 2 more hits and you are basicly dead. yeah i know thats the purpose of an assassin but as an archer you have to face that every time you come near an assassin. i think it would be fair if MoS was reintroduced again as a specable RA or camouflage to have at least a chance to sometimes avoid that
Mon 4 Feb 2019 8:57 AM by tzaaaaa
archers have 1600 hp when fullbuffed with extremely good buffs
debuff does not take away 500 hp

don't spread fakes if you want a serious change
Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:34 AM by tzaaaaa
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:30 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Feb 2019 11:30 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Feb 2019 6:11 PM
lol nobody said a word about gank all... also archers got all the tools in later patches so your arguments are invalid.
right now if you come near to an assassin you are dead as you always get hit by PA and you cant do sh*t about it....
i dont get why there are different ranges for stealth detection and archers have no tools to compensate. in classic there was at least true sight and when it comes to a melee fight with an assassin you had avoid pain.... now archers have nothing of this, pretty unfair.
also why do assassins have viper and vanish and archers dont get anything to survive but ip.

vs all other classes archers are not that weak
or camouflage to have at least a chance to sometimes avoid that

camouflage will not be a solution, in a real and actual situation i would never have camouflage up, so i would be in the same sit as now...

-250 stealth detect to have a chanche to escape to an attack indeed would be fair for assassins and archers, as is for assassis vs assassins.
-another fair change would be the genuine mastery of stealth system RA that works only when the user is stealthed, no camouflage for archers, just an equal potential for archer and assassins.


personally i will stop play if nothing changes because i only play ranger and this situation for me is very very frustrating and not sustainable.
actually when i see an assassin i dont even fight back. it s just a crap
Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:35 AM by inoeth
tzaaaaa wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 8:57 AM
archers have 1600 hp when fullbuffed with extremely good buffs
debuff does not take away 500 hp

don't spread fakes if you want a serious change

you are right its only 425.... didnt realize how op i am actually

https://www.imagebanana.com/s/1323/MNm6iLRF.html
Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:37 AM by inoeth
tzaaaaa wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:34 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:30 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Feb 2019 11:30 PM
or camouflage to have at least a chance to sometimes avoid that

camouflage will not be a solution, in a real and actual situation i would never have camouflage up, so i would be in the same sit as now...

-250 stealth detect to have a chanche to escape to an attack indeed would be fair for assassins and archers, as is for assassis vs assassins.
-another fair change would be the genuine mastery of stealth system RA, no camouflage for archers, just an equal potential for archer and assassins.

personally i will stop play if nothing changes because i only play ranger and this situation for me is very very frustrating and not sustainable.
actually when i see an assassin i dont even fight back. it s just a crap

im playing hunters for 15 years now and for me camouflage was always very useful. im not saying camouflage is THE solution, but it can be part of it and i would realy like to have it back
Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:40 AM by Ganil
It's applied after pa (unless they changed it) so it's only relevant for IP (hp wise).

The 125 vs 250 stealth is a pain in the ass tho. When assassins will be higher rank, my guess it that viper will be too

Bow damage is pretty low. Last night, with 35+12 bow, 283 dex, my critshot only did ~550 on caster.
My guess is that 50+12 would have done ~600, wich is stil fairly low.

It went as low as 450 on some classes... when they have ~1800hps. then normal shot for 225 every 3s. Those are really low damage xD.
Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:06 AM by inoeth
Ganil wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:40 AM
It's applied after pa (unless they changed it) so it's only relevant for IP (hp wise).

The 125 vs 250 stealth is a pain in the ass tho. When assassins will be higher rank, my guess it that viper will be too

Bow damage is pretty low. Last night, with 35+12 bow, 283 dex, my critshot only did ~550 on caster.
My guess is that 50+12 would have done ~600, wich is stil fairly low.

It went as low as 450 on some classes... when they have ~1800hps. then normal shot for 225 every 3s. Those are really low damage xD.

does it make a difference if its applied afterpa? no.

550 is not low dmg imo.... again average char with pot buffs and charges has around 1600 hp, only tanks have 1800 with pots and charges
Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:31 AM by Ganil
It depends, Let's assume opponent has 1k4 hps (My scout has almost 1k5 hps iirc)

Fight against a caster:

action --- total time ---- total damage
break bubble - 3s - 0
critshot - 7s - 550
normal shot - 10s - 825
normal shot - 13s - 1100
normal shot - 17s - 1375
normal shot - 20s - 1650

It's 20s long assuming no interrupt. This is very very long. Note that I could do a little bit more damage sometimes but a little over ~300 damage per shot is the max.
It's often a lot lower than that aswell.

Also it makes a difference if it's applied after pa.

Before pa:
Assuming you have 1500 hps, pa does 500 and debuff 450 hp
debuff kicks in
1050/1050 hp
pa hits
550/1050 hp
=> life left 550/1050

After pa
pa hits
1000/1500 hp
debuff kicks in
1000/1050 hp

life left: 1000/1050
Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:38 AM by inoeth
Ganil wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:31 AM
It depends, Let's assume opponent has 1k4 hps (My scout has almost 1k5 hps iirc)

Fight against a caster:

action --- total time ---- total damage
break bubble - 3s - 0
critshot - 7s - 550
normal shot - 10s - 825
normal shot - 13s - 1100
normal shot - 17s - 1375
normal shot - 20s - 1650

It's 20s long assuming no interrupt. This is very very long. Note that I could do a little bit more damage sometimes but a little over ~300 damage per shot is the max.
It's often a lot lower than that aswell.

Also it makes a difference if it's applied after pa.

Before pa:
Assuming you have 1500 hps, pa does 500 and debuff 450 hp
debuff kicks in
1050/1050 hp
pa hits
550/1050 hp
=> life left 550/1050

After pa
pa hits
1000/1500 hp
debuff kicks in
1000/1050 hp

life left: 1000/1050

casters dont have 1600 hp, more like 1300 if they are full buffed but i doubt that so average solo caster has like 1.1k hp therefor you only need 3 shots i think that pretty ok..... at least me as a hunter doesnt have problems killing casters

thats incorrect becaue the debuff is not percent based. it debuffs con and it doesnt matter if you have a certain amount of hp left or not it just debuffs flat con.
if i understand you correct you assume that the debuff does not do anything when it kicks in after pa?
Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:45 AM by Ganil
3 shots is what it takes me to kill a solo unbuffed caster (+ the bubble piece one). I'll need 1 more for a self buffed one. 2 more for a grouped one.
Solo unbuffed caster die fast. That's an accurate statement ^^'. Those are like unicorns tho :p.

Yep, the debuff is con based but it only changes your hp total. Once pa already has done damage, the debuff will not reduce your total life further.
However, because your total life is lower, your IP will not give you as much life back as it usually does unless you purge it before.
Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:46 AM by inoeth
Ganil wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:45 AM
3 shots is what it takes me to kill a solo unbuffed caster I think. I'll need 1 more for a self buffed one. 2 more for a grouped one.
Solo unbuffed caster die fast. That's an accurate statement ^^'. Those are like unicorns tho :p.

well attacking a grouped caster is a bad idea anyway lol
Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:56 AM by Ganil
That's true.

3 shot (4 with the bubble) feels fair because they have time to react and counterplay.
4 feels long
2 would feel unfair for the caster
Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:59 AM by tzaaaaa
Ganil wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:40 AM
It's applied after pa (unless they changed it) so it's only relevant for IP (hp wise).

The 125 vs 250 stealth is a pain in the ass tho. When assassins will be higher rank, my guess it that viper will be too

Bow damage is pretty low. Last night, with 35+12 bow, 283 dex, my critshot only did ~550 on caster.
My guess is that 50+12 would have done ~600, wich is stil fairly low.

It went as low as 450 on some classes... when they have ~1800hps. then normal shot for 225 every 3s. Those are really low damage xD.

i m full bow specced and i don't see all this lack of bow dmg (i'v not compared to other classes dps). i m only 4L5 and i deal pretty good dmg, i m waiting to reach 5L to see if the 0.3 dps boost and hopefully a proper tp will increase my dmg.
pretending to deal monster damages with 35 bow is silly
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:10 AM by Sepplord
assassin > archers in melee, although that's not how it has always been (cough ranger cough), that's how it needs to be otherwise why play an assassin at all?

archers can add fights from safe distance, attack people from behind trees or other hard-to-spot locations etc...
for that they get a downside, the downside of being attacked from stealth by a superior meleefighter


A good archer will still beat bad assassins in melee (which is good)...i will probably get my ass handed to me quite a few times by good archers if i start playing an SB and am still learning ^^ and that'S how it should be...
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:33 AM by inoeth
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:10 AM
assassin > archers in melee, although that's not how it has always been (cough ranger cough), that's how it needs to be otherwise why play an assassin at all?

archers can add fights from safe distance, attack people from behind trees or other hard-to-spot locations etc...
for that they get a downside, the downside of being attacked from stealth by a superior meleefighter


A good archer will still beat bad assassins in melee (which is good)...i will probably get my ass handed to me quite a few times by good archers if i start playing an SB and am still learning ^^ and that'S how it should be...

well atm every dumb non equiped assassin can beat every archer....
and again nobody is asking to be op, just to have a chance to avoid the PA sometimes which is not possible atm
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:39 AM by Sepplord
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:33 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:10 AM
assassin > archers in melee, although that's not how it has always been (cough ranger cough), that's how it needs to be otherwise why play an assassin at all?

archers can add fights from safe distance, attack people from behind trees or other hard-to-spot locations etc...
for that they get a downside, the downside of being attacked from stealth by a superior meleefighter


A good archer will still beat bad assassins in melee (which is good)...i will probably get my ass handed to me quite a few times by good archers if i start playing an SB and am still learning ^^ and that'S how it should be...

well atm every dumb non equiped assassin can beat every archer....
and again nobody is asking to be op, just to have a chance to avoid the PA sometimes which is not possible atm

i doubt the first claim to be an unbiased and without exxaggeration.

Back in classic when i had to pass a milegate without camouflage on my ranger, i would regularly switch directions randomly, not approach on the shortest way possible, and when getting near the chokepoints (door/ladders) i would often strafe instead of going forward. Not optimal and with downside of itself, but severly reduces the amount of PAs you get to the face
Mon 4 Feb 2019 12:14 PM by inoeth
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:39 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:33 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:10 AM
assassin > archers in melee, although that's not how it has always been (cough ranger cough), that's how it needs to be otherwise why play an assassin at all?

archers can add fights from safe distance, attack people from behind trees or other hard-to-spot locations etc...
for that they get a downside, the downside of being attacked from stealth by a superior meleefighter


A good archer will still beat bad assassins in melee (which is good)...i will probably get my ass handed to me quite a few times by good archers if i start playing an SB and am still learning ^^ and that'S how it should be...

well atm every dumb non equiped assassin can beat every archer....
and again nobody is asking to be op, just to have a chance to avoid the PA sometimes which is not possible atm

i doubt the first claim to be an unbiased and without exxaggeration.

Back in classic when i had to pass a milegate without camouflage on my ranger, i would regularly switch directions randomly, not approach on the shortest way possible, and when getting near the chokepoints (door/ladders) i would often strafe instead of going forward. Not optimal and with downside of itself, but severly reduces the amount of PAs you get to the face


that may worked in classic, try that today and ge PAed nonetheless
anyway that just sucks and is no fun at all
Mon 4 Feb 2019 12:20 PM by Tamy
Just for clarification: Critshot does not go through self casted BT from casters? I played scout at the very beginning of DAoC and also with the whole bow changes (no more arrows required etc.). Both times - if i remember correctly - CS went through BT?

Ontopic: The only thing I dont get are the stealth changes (125 vs 250 detect range). Dont see the point in it. Otherwise it seems pretty balanced. But I'm still talking theory here.

Thanks,
Marc
Mon 4 Feb 2019 12:44 PM by Sepplord
Tamy wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 12:20 PM
Just for clarification: Critshot does not go through self casted BT from casters? I played scout at the very beginning of DAoC and also with the whole bow changes (no more arrows required etc.). Both times - if i remember correctly - CS went through BT?

Ontopic: The only thing I dont get are the stealth changes (125 vs 250 detect range). Dont see the point in it. Otherwise it seems pretty balanced. But I'm still talking theory here.

Thanks,
Marc

Critshot never went through self casted Bubble (at least not in classic DAoC, no idea if it was changed in one of the later abominations)

That would be pretty OP imo
Mon 4 Feb 2019 2:42 PM by Isavyr
In beta, I was playing ranger, and I found it to be a lot more effective than nightshade. Assassin is almost strictly for fun--I think it's inferior by most metrics. My estimate is an archer can add on FG fights and survive 70% of the time. Almost the opposite for assassin--survive maybe 20% of the time. In addition, because of the range advantage, even upon death, an archer will almost always have inflicted more damage.

I suspect all the frustrations here aren't really on point, and stem from the root fact that stealthers are both ineffective on Phoenix (like they were in classic), and have very small niches--smaller than they did in classic, perhaps, in part because players have adjusted very well to stealthers, and consistently run in large groups that are poor targets for stealthers, who were built on attacking small and fringe targets. In addition, stealthers have the highest travel time, the worst buffing situation, and all to do what--gank someone in a few shots, at best?

I think this leads people to be frustrated that their class isn't as effective as they wish. The problem is that if the archer is as effective as they hope, there's no reason to play assassin, and furthermore, it just reinforces the problem with stealthers--they are gankers, and generally only minorly useful in RvR.
Mon 4 Feb 2019 3:11 PM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 2:42 PM
In beta, I was playing ranger, and I found it to be a lot more effective than nightshade. Assassin is almost strictly for fun--I think it's inferior by most metrics. My estimate is an archer can add on FG fights and survive 70% of the time. Almost the opposite for assassin--survive maybe 20% of the time. In addition, because of the range advantage, even upon death, an archer will almost always have inflicted more damage.

I suspect all the frustrations here aren't really on point, and stem from the root fact that stealthers are both ineffective on Phoenix (like they were in classic), and have very small niches--smaller than they did in classic, perhaps, in part because players have adjusted very well to stealthers, and consistently run in large groups that are poor targets for stealthers, who were built on attacking small and fringe targets. In addition, stealthers have the highest travel time, the worst buffing situation, and all to do what--gank someone in a few shots, at best?

I think this leads people to be frustrated that their class isn't as effective as they wish. The problem is that if the archer is as effective as they hope, there's no reason to play assassin, and furthermore, it just reinforces the problem with stealthers--they are gankers, and generally only minorly useful in RvR.

myth!
did assassins extinct with nf RAs and Mos? no! why not if i follow your poor argumentation they must have. but i guess you never played live servers so you can not know better....
Mon 4 Feb 2019 5:06 PM by florin
You're in many cases off better with a ranger than a nightshade if you play smart on the stealth game. Give archers better stealth and there's no real reason to have assassins.
Mon 4 Feb 2019 5:19 PM by Ganil
I actually disagree with that. I like look at how ppl are rping with their toons for that. This is not an absolute truth but it gives you an idea on how a class performs.

https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=all-time&filter=ranger
https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=all-time&filter=nightshade

On average, nightshades are way higher than rangers. Hibernia is where the difference is the smallest.
There is 1 ranger who's an outlier. Even counting him, nightshades still dominate by a long shot.

This is the same for every stealth class on every realm.
There also is 1 hunter who's doing well, every single other hunters are doing real bad lol. Note that he has almost a rr5 worth of rp tasks lol.

Scouts are getting trashed on the same levels as hunters. it's like half of their rps are from tasks.
Mon 4 Feb 2019 5:30 PM by florin
Ganil wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 5:19 PM
I actually disagree with that. I like look at how ppl are rping with their toons for that. This is not an absolute truth but it gives you an idea on how a class performs.

https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=all-time&filter=ranger
https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=all-time&filter=nightshade

On average, nightshades are way higher than rangers.
There is 1 ranger who's an outlier. Even counting him, nightshades still dominate by a long shot.

This is the same for every stealth class on every realm.
There also is 1 hunter who's doing well, every single other hunters are doing real bad lol. Note that he has almost a rr5 worth of rp tasks lol.

Scouts are getting trashed on the same levels as hunters. it's like half of their rps are from tasks.

What I am saying is that if you give rangers (in this example) same stealth as a shade you're going to break that balance. Top stealth, Range, IP, better armor, and going melee ranger will take out assassins 1v1...now imagine 3 or 4 of them camping mgs and portal keeps like nightshades do now.
Mon 4 Feb 2019 5:55 PM by Ganil
I understand your hatred of melee ranger.

Back in the days they were really annoying 1v1 even more so on the classical server where legendary weapons didn't exist.

However:
- dual was nerfed here so they do not hit as often as they should (at least I read that somewhere... my scout doesn't block anything even with 50shield against DW but I'll assume it's bad luck xD)
- physical defense isn't a thing anymore
- they never really overperfomed and here is why: while extremely strong 1v1 opponents, they usually didn't kill that fast (not nearly as sins) and didn't have that great escape (no vanish). They would kill most sins 1v1, but their bad dps would make them easy targets for adds. Casters were hard target (no pa) and tanks took ages to
take down. Killing fast really is the deal breaker.

Better stealth simply give some room for counterplay. The counterplay is running away.
Mon 4 Feb 2019 6:44 PM by florin
Ganil wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 5:55 PM
I understand your hatred of melee ranger.

Back in the days they were really annoying 1v1 even more so on the classical server where legendary weapons didn't exist.

However:
- dual was nerfed here so they do not hit as often as they should (at least I read that somewhere... my scout doesn't block anything even with 50shield against DW but I'll assume it's bad luck xD)
- physical defense isn't a thing anymore
- they never really overperfomed and here is why: while extremely strong 1v1 opponents, they usually didn't kill that fast (not nearly as sins) and didn't have that great escape (no vanish). They would kill most sins 1v1, but their bad dps would make them easy targets for adds. Casters were hard target (no pa) and tanks took ages to
take down. Killing fast really is the deal breaker.

Better stealth simply give some room for counterplay. The counterplay is running away.

Right..you made my point. They have the perfect combo against a solo assassin. So the outcome is you get very few solo assassins, or solo assassins that gank lvl 35s at border keeps
Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:08 PM by Ganil
The thing is... rangers aren't the only archer and is the only one that was really problematic back in the day.
Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:29 PM by florin
Ganil wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:08 PM
The thing is... rangers aren't the only archer and is the only one that was really problematic back in the day.

Rangers do outperform the others on the melee side however. Scouts shield slam has been negated with 5 minute purge. Hunters beast craft is an annoyance at worst, spear hits hard but a couple evades and they are toast. Rangers have the semi anytime - side stun and high dw and blades styles that are among the best.
Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:58 PM by inoeth
the thing is archers are not the only targets for assassins and even if you cannot always land a PA on an archer you still perform very good.
but to always face a pa from assassins is neither fair nor nessecary. assassins are not just PA only classes.

BTW what kind of balance you mean? you think it is balanced to always have a sure kill when meeting an archer? this is not balanced at all!
and again assassins never extinct even though archers had mos9 with 625 range and do you now why? because they are still very strong and dont need to perf archers to kill them
Tue 5 Feb 2019 4:33 AM by Tamy
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 12:44 PM
Tamy wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 12:20 PM
Just for clarification: Critshot does not go through self casted BT from casters? I played scout at the very beginning of DAoC and also with the whole bow changes (no more arrows required etc.). Both times - if i remember correctly - CS went through BT?

Ontopic: The only thing I dont get are the stealth changes (125 vs 250 detect range). Dont see the point in it. Otherwise it seems pretty balanced. But I'm still talking theory here.

Thanks,
Marc

Critshot never went through self casted Bubble (at least not in classic DAoC, no idea if it was changed in one of the later abominations)

That would be pretty OP imo

Ok, then I just did not recall correctly. Later on you were able to hit through BT with CS (but u did not destroy it) if I remeber correctly.

So my only suggestion still stays: Remove the detect range difference between sins/archers. I played sin long enough through all the patch changes to agree on the fact that a good sin is still more than capable to kill an archer without PA opening (even if the archer is able to open with CS out of stealth). On this server even more thanks to a well powered env skill line and the lack of PD, AP etc.
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:21 AM by florin
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:58 PM
the thing is archers are not the only targets for assassins and even if you cannot always land a PA on an archer you still perform very good.
but to always face a pa from assassins is neither fair nor nessecary. assassins are not just PA only classes.

BTW what kind of balance you mean? you think it is balanced to always have a sure kill when meeting an archer? this is not balanced at all!
and again assassins never extinct even though archers had mos9 with 625 range and do you now why? because they are still very strong and dont need to perf archers to kill them

Ive seen some nasty melee rangers out there ...
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:38 AM by Sepplord
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:58 PM
the thing is archers are not the only targets for assassins and even if you cannot always land a PA on an archer you still perform very good.
but to always face a pa from assassins is neither fair nor nessecary. assassins are not just PA only classes.

BTW what kind of balance you mean? you think it is balanced to always have a sure kill when meeting an archer? this is not balanced at all!
and again assassins never extinct even though archers had mos9 with 625 range and do you now why? because they are still very strong and dont need to perf archers to kill them

they didn't need perf to kill an archer that spent almost three and a half Realmranks worth of points on MOS9...pretty big detail
Tue 5 Feb 2019 5:10 PM by Kuschell
Like many stated its not about beeing a overpowered killer. What i want is just like some of you said a chance to win if i can outplay my Enemy.

Another possibilty for asassins vs archer i could imagine is to Keep 250 vs 125 but introduce mos with only stealh detect range
this Would mean archer has to spend more rps to even it out. Something similary to det while fulltanks get a base and hybrid not.
This way sniper spec would be playable. But i would suggest to make it even if both classes have it on the highest Level. At least you could have a chance to open with a crit shot.

For the damage if i read correctly it was reduced after beta and tzaa your dmg is ok but not good you shot me yesterday some times (noroi). A pure sniper or high bow only is not possible atm becouse the lack of dmg. And yes iam talking about 1vs1 and equal gear and skill, sure you can kill a new assa without any sc and buff but thats not what iam aiming for. I want just a fun and competitve Environment where i dont start with 1 leg.
But like i stated dmg is not my first priority.

The issue with Block evade and low defense is still the same since no choices are availble. I could Even imagine a defense penetration ra. Iam just making suggestions to think out of the box and do me a favor if you currently dont play archer, dont make pointless Statements about everything is fine if even assasins agree to some degree.

Greetings
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:56 PM by Isavyr
Kuschell wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 5:10 PM
Like many stated its not about beeing a overpowered killer. What i want is just like some of you said a chance to win if i can outplay my Enemy.

You mean like backstun, side stun, or slam? Because archer's melee already includes those tools--and they can use them in combination with a bow to win a bad assassin. I am very curious what upgrades you think should be added to archer that would make it so that your skill gives you a chance to win--because in my mind, this is already the case.
Tue 5 Feb 2019 7:11 PM by Kuschell
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:56 PM
Kuschell wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 5:10 PM
Like many stated its not about beeing a overpowered killer. What i want is just like some of you said a chance to win if i can outplay my Enemy.

You mean like backstun, side stun, or slam? Because archer's melee already includes those tools--and they can use them in combination with a bow to win a bad assassin. I am very curious what upgrades you think should be added to archer that would make it so that your skill gives you a chance to win--because in my mind, this is already the case.

if you currently dont play archer, dont make pointless Statements about everything is fine if even assasins agree to some degree.
Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:55 AM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:56 PM
Kuschell wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 5:10 PM
Like many stated its not about beeing a overpowered killer. What i want is just like some of you said a chance to win if i can outplay my Enemy.

You mean like backstun, side stun, or slam? Because archer's melee already includes those tools--and they can use them in combination with a bow to win a bad assassin. I am very curious what upgrades you think should be added to archer that would make it so that your skill gives you a chance to win--because in my mind, this is already the case.

The tools that should be added are just the tools they had when they where set up like this.
Dodger, or pd. (Not both)
Just evade 5 would be fine.
Better detection range.
They are hybrids, they had the ability to up their defense.
Even the stuns can't counter envenom. Long duration snare and disease. Anytime snare.
There is no escape if the assassin doesn't want you to.
Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:57 AM by Quik
I still say assassins mainly need Envenom nerfed like mad to get rid of how OP it is. I think that would fix a lot of the issues.
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:22 AM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:56 PM
Kuschell wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 5:10 PM
Like many stated its not about beeing a overpowered killer. What i want is just like some of you said a chance to win if i can outplay my Enemy.

You mean like backstun, side stun, or slam? Because archer's melee already includes those tools--and they can use them in combination with a bow to win a bad assassin. I am very curious what upgrades you think should be added to archer that would make it so that your skill gives you a chance to win--because in my mind, this is already the case.

scout can, rangers/hunters cant their stun is only 5 seconds and you need alone 3 sec to draw your bow and then 3-4 sec for a shot
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:44 AM by tzaaaaa
what about the unstealth rate while drawing a critshot? it happens so much time that i consecutively unstealth myself 3-4-5 times... it's really game breaking
i don't get the point of the presence of this feature, i think it's a real bullshit and should be removed
Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:13 PM by Niget
tzaaaaa wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:44 AM
what about the unstealth rate while drawing a critshot? it happens so much time that i consecutively unstealth myself 3-4-5 times... it's really game breaking
i don't get the point of the presence of this feature, i think it's a real bullshit and should be removed

That one is based on your stealth comp.
Old statistics where a 2% chance to unstrealth on first shot with comp 50 stealth.
An additional 2% for every level below.
It's hard to tell but it seems close. Less than 10% for sure.
Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:47 PM by inoeth
Niget wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 12:13 PM
tzaaaaa wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 8:44 AM
what about the unstealth rate while drawing a critshot? it happens so much time that i consecutively unstealth myself 3-4-5 times... it's really game breaking
i don't get the point of the presence of this feature, i think it's a real bullshit and should be removed

That one is based on your stealth comp.
Old statistics where a 2% chance to unstrealth on first shot with comp 50 stealth.
An additional 2% for every level below.
It's hard to tell but it seems close. Less than 10% for sure.

composite stealth is 52
i cant argue about that happens to me very few times tbh, but this has always been a feature with classic bow system. i dont like it either but it is far from gamebreaking imo
Wed 6 Feb 2019 4:55 PM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:22 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:56 PM
Kuschell wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 5:10 PM
Like many stated its not about beeing a overpowered killer. What i want is just like some of you said a chance to win if i can outplay my Enemy.

You mean like backstun, side stun, or slam? Because archer's melee already includes those tools--and they can use them in combination with a bow to win a bad assassin. I am very curious what upgrades you think should be added to archer that would make it so that your skill gives you a chance to win--because in my mind, this is already the case.

scout can, rangers/hunters cant their stun is only 5 seconds and you need alone 3 sec to draw your bow and then 3-4 sec for a shot

You mean to tell me you think you should stand in his face and shoot him with your bow? You wouldn't even be able to shoot immediately--you should always run to open distance. In fact, rangers and hunters were given a 10m CD speed-burst to do exactly this.

This dialogue so far has only convinced me that archers don't want skillful ways to defeat their enemy--to which nobody has bothered to provide examples (and could actually push this conversation forward)--but instead want to rehash how overpowered assassins are, and how archers should have speccable ways to turn the tables in their favor, which is absurd at face-value. Why should a hybrid melee consistently win a strictly melee class?

Still waiting for answer on that one, too.
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:22 PM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 4:55 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:22 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 6:56 PM
You mean like backstun, side stun, or slam? Because archer's melee already includes those tools--and they can use them in combination with a bow to win a bad assassin. I am very curious what upgrades you think should be added to archer that would make it so that your skill gives you a chance to win--because in my mind, this is already the case.

scout can, rangers/hunters cant their stun is only 5 seconds and you need alone 3 sec to draw your bow and then 3-4 sec for a shot

You mean to tell me you think you should stand in his face and shoot him with your bow? You wouldn't even be able to shoot immediately--you should always run to open distance. In fact, rangers and hunters were given a 10m CD speed-burst to do exactly this.

This dialogue so far has only convinced me that archers don't want skillful ways to defeat their enemy--to which nobody has bothered to provide examples (and could actually push this conversation forward)--but instead want to rehash how overpowered assassins are, and how archers should have speccable ways to turn the tables in their favor, which is absurd at face-value. Why should a hybrid melee consistently win a strictly melee class?

Still waiting for answer on that one, too.

Playing paper daoc here.
Ok this can be done yes. Keep in mind you have 10 seconds to do all of this. Of which an assassin will be moving and able to evade your shots. (40% chance with 50 comp bow)
Running with speed for 4 seconds. Turn for a 3-4 second shot.
You get 1. It will be the only shot you get in this fight (no assassin will let you do that again) and you only have a 60% chance to land it.
Level and play one. It will make sense.
If you miss this 10 second window the assassin will stealth.
No detection range for the archer.
Run or die.

Alternative
Rapid fire. Get 2-3 shots off. You will likely get damage down but not much.

These hybrid where given ras to defend against things like this for a reason!

If the assassin hits you with an unbreakable snare poison you will never get this chance.

Please roll temp and play one before you make assumptions.

Even with higher evade or dodger along with higher detection range. An archer won't just take an assassin straight up in melee. The fight will be more even is all.
And only if the archer is ranked enough to have the toys to maybe stay alive.
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:53 PM by Isavyr
Niget wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:22 PM
Playing paper daoc here.
Ok this can be done yes. Keep in mind you have 10 seconds to do all of this. Of which an assassin will be moving and able to evade your shots. (40% chance with 50 comp bow)
...
...

...

Your arguments boil down to: It isn't easy for an archer to win an assassin. Not only do I not dispute that--but it's exactly the point I was making two posts ago; that it isn't easy, but the tools are there for a good archer to beat a bad assassin. Furthermore, I wrote that it would be absurd balancing for archers, which are a hybrid melee, to be regularly beating assassins, which are exclusively melee. Do you believe otherwise? And what does that mean for assassins if archers can be made to be superior in melee, while also maintaining superior ranged combat?
Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:54 PM by inoeth
Why is it absurd? It was all there on live server for over a decade... Dont act like this all was dreams.
And yes what you say is paper daoc and only works if the assassin is really really bad and you have all the tools up while the assassins has that every fight. Its just lo how some ppl denie reality and only want ppl to suffer it seems. As far as i understand phoenix wants to be a classic daoc but without all the stupid suffering.... Imean come on everybody has det for a reason.... Why nerf archers so hard? Even with dodger, mos and pd assassi s will still be very hard to beat. Keep in mind you have to decide what to spec because you cant cap it all unless you are rank 10 and therefore you will have some achilles heels. Why is it fair to take away camu, avoid pain, true sight, pd and mos but assassins can keep all the stuff like viper and vanish? And also get the runspeed from mos for free? What kind of balance is that? Thats bs. Thats not fair. And i dont get what is the reason, what have archers done that they are hated so much by the developers?
Wed 6 Feb 2019 10:47 PM by tzaaaaa
to me seems atleast 20% oto unstealth, i will carry out a test
Thu 7 Feb 2019 1:10 AM by Zansobar
tzaaaaa wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 10:47 PM
to me seems atleast 20% oto unstealth, i will carry out a test

I'm pretty sure a patch note said they set it to unstealth 20% of the time when you attempt a critical shot.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 2:34 AM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:54 PM
Why nerf archers so hard? Even with dodger, mos and pd assassi s will still be very hard to beat.

I think you are a bit misinformed on status quo:

1) Assassins don't get PD.
2) Archers and Assassins both have access to MOS via stealth specialization-- equal opportunity.

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:54 PM
Keep in mind you have to decide what to spec because you cant cap it all unless you are rank 10 and therefore you will have some achilles heels. Why is it fair to take away camu, avoid pain, true sight, pd and mos ...

Those abilities were probably removed for the same reason that devs moved away from OF abilities--they are volatile and take away from skill; you press a button and the game changes completely. It's bad design. Speaking of which, if melee archer can regularly beat assassins, for what reason is there to play assassin?

I hate to rehash this question but I don't see it answered.

My opinion is that it makes sense to buff archers if they are currently performing poorly within their niche, and the suggested buffs specifically helps them within that niche--and what is that niche? It's a ranged class; one that picks targets off from range--typically support and casters. The fact that assassins are beating them doesn't seem to be an issue here, regardless of what Mythic did in the past. I feel like I'm rehashing familiar territory. Maybe we just disagree in what direction/niche the archers should occupy.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 2:39 AM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:53 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:22 PM
Playing paper daoc here.
Ok this can be done yes. Keep in mind you have 10 seconds to do all of this. Of which an assassin will be moving and able to evade your shots. (40% chance with 50 comp bow)
...
...

...

Your arguments boil down to: It isn't easy for an archer to win an assassin. Not only do I not dispute that--but it's exactly the point I was making two posts ago; that it isn't easy, but the tools are there for a good archer to beat a bad assassin. Furthermore, I wrote that it would be absurd balancing for archers, which are a hybrid melee, to be regularly beating assassins, which are exclusively melee. Do you believe otherwise? And what does that mean for assassins if archers can be made to be superior in melee, while also maintaining superior ranged combat?
Are there a few tools left for archers? Yes
But it shouldn't be good archer vs bad assassin that makes this case.
I absolutely do not believe archers should win every fight. I don't want to see the tables turned around. You are half right. Assassins are straight melee toon just as much as archers are. Without envenom they are nothing. Both classes spec about the same in their melee.
Envenom will keep the edge on the assassins side.
Even with ip, better armor, and dodger (or higher evade)
Archery will keep the range dps advantage on the archer. (But it is hampered by the assassins evade.

The thing is the requested changes won't just flop it 360 on the assassins.
Even out detection range. That 1-2 shots you may get won't just kill an assassin you still have to fight it. The assassin with any skill won't let an archer run. They are almost made to prevent flight.
Dodger or evade 5 won't make their evade any better than an assassins evade. They still have to fight against envenom. That is huge.
To match an assassins evade that requires dodger 8... That means with 34 ra points in dodger they could have 5% better evade.... But they are still fighting envenom.

Say an archer gets 2 shots on you.
We will say around 600 damage(high end)
You hit them for 120 with an anytime.
Con debuff fires max life is down 425.
That's 545 first hit.
No off hand or second poison calculated.
About even right.
Now archer down ws still has to fight you.
Now pretty much every assassin will run through the stack of poison weapons in their back pack.
We know how bad that hurts.
But archer may have ip up his sleeve (but remember to get evade up he burnt a lot of points for dodger)

There would be no way to say who would win this fight. But that is best possible case for the archer.
A maybe.
The thing is the way they are set up now.
The archer didn't get those first shots.
They don't have the evade to stand up to the assassin at all.
It's assassin finds archer.
Archer is poisoned.
Archer is snared.
Archer dies. 9 times out of 10. (Or worse)
It will not make the archer melee dominant at all.
Just have a shot at the fight.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:51 AM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 2:34 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:54 PM
Why nerf archers so hard? Even with dodger, mos and pd assassi s will still be very hard to beat.

I think you are a bit misinformed on status quo:

1) Assassins don't get PD.
2) Archers and Assassins both have access to MOS via stealth specialization-- equal opportunity.

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:54 PM
Keep in mind you have to decide what to spec because you cant cap it all unless you are rank 10 and therefore you will have some achilles heels. Why is it fair to take away camu, avoid pain, true sight, pd and mos ...

Those abilities were probably removed for the same reason that devs moved away from OF abilities--they are volatile and take away from skill; you press a button and the game changes completely. It's bad design. Speaking of which, if melee archer can regularly beat assassins, for what reason is there to play assassin?

I hate to rehash this question but I don't see it answered.

My opinion is that it makes sense to buff archers if they are currently performing poorly within their niche, and the suggested buffs specifically helps them within that niche--and what is that niche? It's a ranged class; one that picks targets off from range--typically support and casters. The fact that assassins are beating them doesn't seem to be an issue here, regardless of what Mythic did in the past. I feel like I'm rehashing familiar territory. Maybe we just disagree in what direction/niche the archers should occupy.

That sums up this thread.
But it seems that niche most want the archer in is that of a long range stealthier that is only capable of adding and scavenging for rp scraps.

Melee archer should put up a good fight against assassins by design. They spec much further in their melee. Basically they are stealthed light tanks.

That's the problem with their niche. Archers have always been a spec for play style class.
That's why I don't get the reluctance on the defense boost.
None of the suggestions are a one button win.
Not would it be all that game changing.
Dodger- ra points into evade.
Or
Evade 5- 10% evade chance because dodger was a big part of this archer set up. (Not that big)
And
Equal detection range- really that is just a chance for a stealth class to not get purfed in the face or catch an off guard assassin.
Really these are nessisary for a hybrid archer.
And with them we may see a melee archer again.

To explain my perspective.
Compare assassin and hybrid archer specs (ignore melee archer for now I'll get to that in a sec)
Without beating the numbers around too much.
They spec pretty much the same in their melee.
Sometimes assassins even spec lower in their melee.
I believe they are on the same damage tables.
Difference being the other spec lines.
Cs, envenom vs bow, archer speciality.
So how can someone say the archer can't fight just because it has a bow. Well it still doesn't have envenom or the cs line so even with a closer evade the archer won't melee like an assassin.
But mixing archer melee with ranged attacks you get similar results. Just slower.
But melee archers tend to ignore their bow to raise their spec in their weapon. Making them actually do more melee style damage, (Excluding cs) and have higher ws, along with better armor.
They still have to fight against envenom.
Those specs have always been to fight assassins.
Assassins should have some trouble with a melee archer because the archer gives up its range in favor of mh ws.

Although I kind of understand why people are afraid of this. In reality it is a small bump into the classic archer direction that has brought some people here.
These changes won't bring back the classic "crazed pd9 melee ranger" days. No one wants that. Those things where crazy.
And they are not big either.
10% to evade, and 250 unit detection range.
It's the baby step that can literally make this class enjoyable for all play styles.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:16 AM by Isavyr
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 2:39 AM
The thing is the requested changes won't just flop it 360 on the assassins.
...
Dodger or evade 5 won't make their evade any better than an assassins evade. They still have to fight against envenom. That is huge.
To match an assassins evade that requires dodger 8... That means with 34 ra points in dodger they could have 5% better evade.... But they are still fighting envenom.
...
There would be no way to say who would win this fight. But that is best possible case for the archer.
...
It will not make the archer melee dominant at all.
Just have a shot at the fight.

I mostly agree with your analysis, but I don't that it's a problem that archers routinely lose to assassins based on the original design. Archers provided long-range disruption and damage of enemy support and casters. They could optionally get behind enemy lines with their stealth and attempt backline/side kills. This necessarily came with great risk from assassins, who had an advantage in seeking the archers out, along with other targets separated from the pack.

I think these are good niches for each respective stealther type. My opinion is it's much more fun for the players, and makes better competitive mechanics, if Instead of watering the archer down into a general purpose stealther that is potentially superior in every role, it is further refined in its respective niche.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:29 AM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 2:34 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:54 PM
Why nerf archers so hard? Even with dodger, mos and pd assassi s will still be very hard to beat.

I think you are a bit misinformed on status quo:

1) Assassins don't get PD.
2) Archers and Assassins both have access to MOS via stealth specialization-- equal opportunity.

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:54 PM
Keep in mind you have to decide what to spec because you cant cap it all unless you are rank 10 and therefore you will have some achilles heels. Why is it fair to take away camu, avoid pain, true sight, pd and mos ...

Those abilities were probably removed for the same reason that devs moved away from OF abilities--they are volatile and take away from skill; you press a button and the game changes completely. It's bad design. Speaking of which, if melee archer can regularly beat assassins, for what reason is there to play assassin?

I hate to rehash this question but I don't see it answered.

My opinion is that it makes sense to buff archers if they are currently performing poorly within their niche, and the suggested buffs specifically helps them within that niche--and what is that niche? It's a ranged class; one that picks targets off from range--typically support and casters. The fact that assassins are beating them doesn't seem to be an issue here, regardless of what Mythic did in the past. I feel like I'm rehashing familiar territory. Maybe we just disagree in what direction/niche the archers should occupy.

you misunderstood me here, i was not talking about PD on assassins i just missed a comma.
yes both have mos but it is far from equal, since assassins do not benefit so much from original mos in case of seeing more far but the runspeed is increased.
archers however train it mainly so see more far and not so much for runspeed.
here on phoenix you only have the runspeed but not the ability to see more far, see the difference?

yes they removed of ra for a reason because it was a bad design.. sure but why do assassins keep all the stuff? in of ra the NS only had viper, the infi only had vanish... now all the assassins can spec that. what do archers get from of ra or nf ra? no PD, no MOS, no true sight, no aviod pain..... that was my point.

and again this is not about archers win every fight vs assassin! i dont know why you ppl always read that out of nothing. it is about to have thechance to sometimes win a fight even vs a good assassin, when dumping all active RAs. which is currently barely possible. even bad vs assassins you have to dump all your actives and just have a very very little chance to win. what do you guys actually fear? for me all that sounds like you dont want to lose your easy rp archers.... which i can understand, but which abolutely doesnt make any sense to me since archers are no bots, but ppl who want to have fun with the game as much as you do. is it so hard to understand?

btw all these "should be" arguments are so laughable, have you guys been part of the daoc developement team and know some insider information? no? ok than its just all wild guessing. heres one from me: assassins should not have a chance to escape after they kill somebody. look at history: lee harvey oswald got cought, john wilkes booth got cought, james earl ray got cought, gavrilo princip got cought.... and many more -> remove vanish.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:44 AM by Isavyr
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:51 AM
Melee archer should put up a good fight against assassins by design. They spec much further in their melee. Basically they are stealthed light tanks.

That's the problem with their niche. Archers have always been a spec for play style class.
That's why I don't get the reluctance on the defense boost.
None of the suggestions are a one button win.
Not would it be all that game changing.
Dodger- ra points into evade.
Or
Evade 5- 10% evade chance because dodger was a big part of this archer set up. (Not that big)
Equal detection range- really that is just a chance for a stealth class to not get purfed in the face or catch an off guard assassin.

Do archers spec further into melee? Let's examine the nature of how an assassin operates. They use the Critical Strike (CS) line for opening attacks. To be able to arrange an opener, you have to see the target ahead of time. As you may know, many assassin fights do not begin with openers, but rather a general melee attack, because they stumble upon each other and don't want to risk being opened on. This is often a balanced start for assassin v assassin, as the failed opener puts both on an equal playing field, as neither can leverage a CS opener--assuming they both specialized in it. If they did not specialize in it, then the failed opener benefits the shadowzerk or shadowmerc, for example, who did not specialize in that line and is best suited for fights where openers are not involved. So if failed openers benefit the non-CS player, imagine giving archers and assassins equal stealth such that failed openers often occur here too. Who does it benefit? Well, clearly the archer, because the assassin loses his capability to his Critical Strike openers and thus most the points he spent in that line are invalidated. The archer, meanwhile, loses none of his points spent in melee.

I think the above point is very important, but let's ignore it for a moment to consider another aspect. Archers were given bonus range which gives them natural safety margin against their visible enemies when they open on their enemy's flank. However, the flanking comes with the risk of being found by an assassin. In my mind, you have an advantage closely tied to a disadvantage. Remove the disadvantage (the assassin pressure)--why do they keep the visible range advantage? The archer should have no downside to assassins and reliably flank visible enemies without great risk? This doesn't seem logical to me.

Classic had a lot of problems, and I think stealthers in general were one of them--their design never appeared to be completed, and their gameplay consequently devolved into ganking, which is unfortunately what they're best at.

I don't necessarily have the answers, but my opinion is these original roles are fine, and they should be built upon, instead of devolving them. Ideally the stealthers could be made such that they could actually be brought into visible groups, as well as contribute solo to the larger RvR picture, without the constant devolvement into ganksquads.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:02 AM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:29 AM
and again this is not about archers win every fight vs assassin! i dont know why you ppl always read that out of nothing. it is about to have thechance to sometimes win a fight even vs a good assassin, when dumping all active RAs. which is currently barely possible. even bad vs assassins you have to dump all your actives and just have a very very little chance to win. what do you guys actually fear? for me all that sounds like you dont want to lose your easy rp archers.... which i can understand, but which abolutely doesnt make any sense to me since archers are no bots, but ppl who want to have fun with the game as much as you do. is it so hard to understand?

No. The point is that if archers can reliably kill assassins, and also have great range with their bow, there's little reason to playing an assassin as the archer is superior in every way. I'm fairly sure players are against this type of suggestion because it invalidates playing a potentially fun class, not because they want easy realmpoints. Who wants a class completely invalidated? It's not good for anyone.

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:29 AM
btw all these "should be" arguments are so laughable, have you guys been part of the daoc developement team and know some insider information? no? ok than its just all wild guessing. heres one from me: assassins should not have a chance to escape after they kill somebody.

"Should-be" arguments are only opinions--naturally nobody is right, not a developer, not Mythic. But you can share what your vision is, and discuss why your suggestion is the best way of creating that vision. If people agree with your vision, then they can discuss whether you are right or wrong, because this is where people may be illogical, and not see the big picture (For example, their idea may actually oppose their vision). So this is the point of discussion, to determine what the vision is, and whether the idea supports it.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:08 AM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:44 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:51 AM
Melee archer should put up a good fight against assassins by design. They spec much further in their melee. Basically they are stealthed light tanks.

That's the problem with their niche. Archers have always been a spec for play style class.
That's why I don't get the reluctance on the defense boost.
None of the suggestions are a one button win.
Not would it be all that game changing.
Dodger- ra points into evade.
Or
Evade 5- 10% evade chance because dodger was a big part of this archer set up. (Not that big)
Equal detection range- really that is just a chance for a stealth class to not get purfed in the face or catch an off guard assassin.

Do archers spec further into melee? Let's examine the nature of how an assassin operates. They use the Critical Strike (CS) line for opening attacks. To be able to arrange an opener, you have to see the target ahead of time. As you may know, many assassin fights do not begin with openers, but rather a general melee attack, because they stumble upon each other and don't want to risk being opened on. This is often a balanced start for assassin v assassin, as the failed opener puts both on an equal playing field, as neither can leverage a CS opener--assuming they both specialized in it. If they did not specialize in it, then the failed opener benefits the shadowzerk or shadowmerc, for example, who did not specialize in that line and is best suited for fights where openers are not involved. So if failed openers benefit the non-CS player, imagine giving archers and assassins equal stealth such that failed openers often occur here too. Who does it benefit? Well, clearly the archer, because the assassin loses his capability to his Critical Strike openers and thus most the points he spent in that line are invalidated. The archer, meanwhile, loses none of his points spent in melee.

I think the above point is very important, but let's ignore it for a moment to consider another aspect. Archers were given bonus range which gives them natural safety margin against their visible enemies when they open on their enemy's flank. However, the flanking comes with the risk of being found by an assassin. In my mind, you have an advantage closely tied to a disadvantage. Remove the disadvantage (the assassin pressure)--why do they keep the visible range advantage? The archer should have no downside to assassins and reliably flank visible enemies without great risk? This doesn't seem logical to me.

Classic had a lot of problems, and I think stealthers in general were one of them--their design never appeared to be completed, and their gameplay consequently devolved into ganking, which is unfortunately what they're best at.

I don't necessarily have the answers, but my opinion is these natural roles are fine, and they should be built upon, instead of devolving them. Ideally the stealthers could be made such that they could actually be brought into visible groups, as well as contribute solo to the larger RvR picture, without the constant devolvement into ganksquads.

you mean assassin gank squad? because right now that is the case.
btw your argumentation that assasins are weak when they cant PA is just lol.... CS styles are much more superior than any other specable weapon line plus they have their venoms... even without PA the assassin is still much stronger than any archer.

what do you mean by natural role? archers being rp-sheep is cool? man all you guys schould really play an archer before stating this.
yes archers have a range advantage vs visible targets, but who are those potential targets? tanks, offtanks, casters who all have counters and neither of them is a rp-sheep for archers unless they are very bad players. archers have very few counters vs assassins that mostly only work in paper daoc.


but i guess we lightened all the downsides of being an archer now, lets make some suggestions how to help them!

imo a modified version of specable mos would help so that, if you are quick and maybe have a fast bow, you are able to get out a critshot on an assassin, but not always. and even then the range must be so that the assassin can reach you and still be able or lets say have a chance to win the fight.... is suggest a range of 300 locs.

another sugestion would be dodger. i dont really have to explain i think

maybe a reduced version of physical defense, i mean further reduced ... maximum 10-15% melee resist. or bring back avoid pain, so archers dont always have high resists.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:11 AM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:02 AM
Who wants a class completely invalidated?

dude that will not be the case! have you played live servers? did assassins extinct there? all im asking for has alrdy been there!
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:17 AM by Sepplord
Niget wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:22 PM
Please roll temp and play one before you make assumptions.


What a wonderful argument, i guess you have rolled and temped an assassin as well as an archer otherwise you can't comment at all according to your own assessment of qualifications needed.


I have played an archer to RR9 before the implementation of MOS-detection btw. and i am heavily against having MOS-detection ingame.
It worsens the stealthwar for all stealthers. Assassins AND aRchers both have to waste points in it, then it counters itself and all stealthers are weaker to visibles now because they spent RAs on stealth-only RA.

If archers bow is too weak, then fight to get that buffed, not ask for melee buffs. If you wanted to be strong in melee why did you roll an archer? The way of thinking seriously boggles my mind.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:24 AM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:08 AM
man all you guys schould really play an archer before stating this.

I've played all archers and I don't have these issues. I find them very effective within certain parameters. I'm satisfied getting away from assassins, and not defeating them. By the way, if you want to know someone's experience, just ask. Feels very ad hominem (avoiding the argument, instead attacking the person's alleged lack of experience)

The problem with your idea of dumping all RAs and winning assassin is that the cooldowns are 15m or lower--so every 15m you are trouncing an assassin? This is the same issue you don't like--the helplessness and lack of skill involved, except in reverse, and even worse, from a class that has no business dominating assassins. If you think RA dumping is how you should be winning, so be it. Nothing more to add.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:44 AM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:24 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:08 AM
man all you guys schould really play an archer before stating this.

I've played all archers and I don't have these issues. I find them very effective within certain parameters. I'm satisfied getting away from assassins, and not defeating them. By the way, if you want to know someone's experience, just ask. Feels very ad hominem (avoiding the argument, instead attacking the person's alleged lack of experience)

The problem with your idea of dumping all RAs and winning assassin is that the cooldowns are 15m or lower--so every 15m you are trouncing an assassin? This is the same issue you don't like--the helplessness and lack of skill involved, except in reverse, and even worse, from a class that has no business dominating assassins. If you think RA dumping is how you should be winning, so be it. Nothing more to add.


then tell me how to defeat assassins with skill involved, maybe im just too bad.

i know what ad hominem means btw
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:47 AM by inoeth
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:17 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:22 PM
Please roll temp and play one before you make assumptions.


What a wonderful argument, i guess you have rolled and temped an assassin as well as an archer otherwise you can't comment at all according to your own assessment of qualifications needed.


I have played an archer to RR9 before the implementation of MOS-detection btw. and i am heavily against having MOS-detection ingame.
It worsens the stealthwar for all stealthers. Assassins AND aRchers both have to waste points in it, then it counters itself and all stealthers are weaker to visibles now because they spent RAs on stealth-only RA.

If archers bow is too weak, then fight to get that buffed, not ask for melee buffs. If you wanted to be strong in melee why did you roll an archer? The way of thinking seriously boggles my mind.

if you played an archer to rr9 before NF then you also had true sight and avoid pain and camuflage. you dont have that here and thats my point. archers here are weaker than in classic.
im not argueing that bow is too weak, in fact think bow at its current state is fine.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:58 AM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 7:53 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:22 PM
Playing paper daoc here.
Ok this can be done yes. Keep in mind you have 10 seconds to do all of this. Of which an assassin will be moving and able to evade your shots. (40% chance with 50 comp bow)
...
...

...

Your arguments boil down to: It isn't easy for an archer to win an assassin. Not only do I not dispute that--but it's exactly the point I was making two posts ago; that it isn't easy, but the tools are there for a good archer to beat a bad assassin. Furthermore, I wrote that it would be absurd balancing for archers, which are a hybrid melee, to be regularly beating assassins, which are exclusively melee. Do you believe otherwise? And what does that mean for assassins if archers can be made to be superior in melee, while also maintaining superior ranged combat?

Saying "superior ranged combat" is a huge stretch at best. Archery has more conditions required for successful damage than any other skill line in the game and does less damage than other ranged skill lines once those narrow conditions are met. Definitely not "superior ranged combat".
Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:16 AM by Sepplord
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:47 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:17 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 5:22 PM
Please roll temp and play one before you make assumptions.


What a wonderful argument, i guess you have rolled and temped an assassin as well as an archer otherwise you can't comment at all according to your own assessment of qualifications needed.


I have played an archer to RR9 before the implementation of MOS-detection btw. and i am heavily against having MOS-detection ingame.
It worsens the stealthwar for all stealthers. Assassins AND aRchers both have to waste points in it, then it counters itself and all stealthers are weaker to visibles now because they spent RAs on stealth-only RA.

If archers bow is too weak, then fight to get that buffed, not ask for melee buffs. If you wanted to be strong in melee why did you roll an archer? The way of thinking seriously boggles my mind.

if you played an archer to rr9 before NF then you also had true sight and avoid pain and camuflage. you dont have that here and thats my point. archers here are weaker than in classic.
im not argueing that bow is too weak, in fact think bow at its current state is fine.

Good point, i actually forgot about truesight as i disliked it just like i disliked MOS detection, but you have a point that it could be used by archers that want better detection for chokepoint movements. I am also up for camoflage being given back to them, decreasing the detectionrange of assassins seeing archers is fine and a better approach than increasing detection range of archers seeing assassins. Avoid Pain is gone, but we have PD


My main problem with detection RAs is, that they benefit the stealthzerg far more than the soloers. The stealthzerg can have only a few people spend points on those RAs and have others at full combatstrength. A solo archer has to pay a significantly higher price relatively in combat strength to purchase those RAs
Thu 7 Feb 2019 10:39 AM by inoeth
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:16 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:47 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:17 AM
What a wonderful argument, i guess you have rolled and temped an assassin as well as an archer otherwise you can't comment at all according to your own assessment of qualifications needed.


I have played an archer to RR9 before the implementation of MOS-detection btw. and i am heavily against having MOS-detection ingame.
It worsens the stealthwar for all stealthers. Assassins AND aRchers both have to waste points in it, then it counters itself and all stealthers are weaker to visibles now because they spent RAs on stealth-only RA.

If archers bow is too weak, then fight to get that buffed, not ask for melee buffs. If you wanted to be strong in melee why did you roll an archer? The way of thinking seriously boggles my mind.

if you played an archer to rr9 before NF then you also had true sight and avoid pain and camuflage. you dont have that here and thats my point. archers here are weaker than in classic.
im not argueing that bow is too weak, in fact think bow at its current state is fine.

Good point, i actually forgot about truesight as i disliked it just like i disliked MOS detection, but you have a point that it could be used by archers that want better detection for chokepoint movements. I am also up for camoflage being given back to them, decreasing the detectionrange of assassins seeing archers is fine and a better approach than increasing detection range of archers seeing assassins. Avoid Pain is gone, but we have PD


My main problem with detection RAs is, that they benefit the stealthzerg far more than the soloers. The stealthzerg can have only a few people spend points on those RAs and have others at full combatstrength. A solo archer has to pay a significantly higher price relatively in combat strength to purchase those RAs

no we dont have PD ..... we dont have anything useful, instead all that was good was taken away from archers.

with camuflage reintroduced you can get away from stealth zergs even with mos! but i get your point, thats why i vote for a reduced version of mos which allows you to maybe open a steath fight with your bow, but not from miles away but from 250-300 locs, or get away from enemys without getting too close to them but this only works with mos+camuflage.

now i guess ppl come and say blablabla camuflage is op blablabla, but you miss that it is on a 10 min timer and is gone as soon as you do dmg (not getting dmg) so as soon as you hit somebody, your ability to hide effectivly is gone - > chance for assassin?
Thu 7 Feb 2019 10:53 AM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:16 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 2:39 AM
The thing is the requested changes won't just flop it 360 on the assassins.
...
Dodger or evade 5 won't make their evade any better than an assassins evade. They still have to fight against envenom. That is huge.
To match an assassins evade that requires dodger 8... That means with 34 ra points in dodger they could have 5% better evade.... But they are still fighting envenom.
...
There would be no way to say who would win this fight. But that is best possible case for the archer.
...
It will not make the archer melee dominant at all.
Just have a shot at the fight.

I mostly agree with your analysis, but I don't that it's a problem that archers routinely lose to assassins based on the original design. Archers provided long-range disruption and damage of enemy support and casters. They could optionally get behind enemy lines with their stealth and attempt backline/side kills. This necessarily came with great risk from assassins, who had an advantage in seeking the archers out, along with other targets separated from the pack.

I think these are good niches for each respective stealther type. My opinion is it's much more fun for the players, and makes better competitive mechanics, if Instead of watering the archer down into a general purpose stealther that is potentially superior in every role, it is further refined in its respective niche.

You are correct.
By design assassins will win more often. One thing I will correct is that assassins get and use vanish. Over all decreasing their risk by quite a lot.
The small changes purposed won't make them superior. Just competitive.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 11:13 AM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:44 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:51 AM
Melee archer should put up a good fight against assassins by design. They spec much further in their melee. Basically they are stealthed light tanks.

That's the problem with their niche. Archers have always been a spec for play style class.
That's why I don't get the reluctance on the defense boost.
None of the suggestions are a one button win.
Not would it be all that game changing.
Dodger- ra points into evade.
Or
Evade 5- 10% evade chance because dodger was a big part of this archer set up. (Not that big)
Equal detection range- really that is just a chance for a stealth class to not get purfed in the face or catch an off guard assassin.

Do archers spec further into melee? Let's examine the nature of how an assassin operates. They use the Critical Strike (CS) line for opening attacks. To be able to arrange an opener, you have to see the target ahead of time. As you may know, many assassin fights do not begin with openers, but rather a general melee attack, because they stumble upon each other and don't want to risk being opened on. This is often a balanced start for assassin v assassin, as the failed opener puts both on an equal playing field, as neither can leverage a CS opener--assuming they both specialized in it. If they did not specialize in it, then the failed opener benefits the shadowzerk or shadowmerc, for example, who did not specialize in that line and is best suited for fights where openers are not involved. So if failed openers benefit the non-CS player, imagine giving archers and assassins equal stealth such that failed openers often occur here too. Who does it benefit? Well, clearly the archer, because the assassin loses his capability to his Critical Strike openers and thus most the points he spent in that line are invalidated. The archer, meanwhile, loses none of his points spent in melee.

I think the above point is very important, but let's ignore it for a moment to consider another aspect. Archers were given bonus range which gives them natural safety margin against their visible enemies when they open on their enemy's flank. However, the flanking comes with the risk of being found by an assassin. In my mind, you have an advantage closely tied to a disadvantage. Remove the disadvantage (the assassin pressure)--why do they keep the visible range advantage? The archer should have no downside to assassins and reliably flank visible enemies without great risk? This doesn't seem logical to me.

Classic had a lot of problems, and I think stealthers in general were one of them--their design never appeared to be completed, and their gameplay consequently devolved into ganking, which is unfortunately what they're best at.

I don't necessarily have the answers, but my opinion is these original roles are fine, and they should be built upon, instead of devolving them. Ideally the stealthers could be made such that they could actually be brought into visible groups, as well as contribute solo to the larger RvR picture, without the constant devolvement into ganksquads.

You are right in a way! Assassins are risk and reward stealthers. Their whole cs line is like that.
The problem with your logic is that the stealth mechanics as they are favor the assassin hard. Removing a lot of the risk and guaranteeing reward, in a assassin vs archer setting.
Archer detection is 125 units.
The assassin is well within melee range and with detect hidden has seen the archer coming for a little bit.
Even if the detection range is even. Assassins on average will still see archers first with detect hidden.
The Archer risk is getting caught. They won't likely get away.
An assassin absolutely will get away. Vanish removes much of the risk in these situations.

Cs high risk high reward isn't just the opener. The evade chains are deadly. Their cs line isn't done if they don't get the opener.
These changes would have no effect on the bigger picture in rvr. Archers and assassins are of a similar play style. Even though assassins get the edge in this fight. Archers should not just be easy RPS because they have a bow....
Thu 7 Feb 2019 1:36 PM by inoeth
this ^^ but seems like some men just want to see the world burning ;D

btw we are at page 8 now and no dev said anything to this yet.... can we expect that you guys take a look at it?
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:01 PM by Niget
Didn't every melee class get det to be competitive?
Make them fit into their spots a little better. I don't understand how this isn't considered harmfully game changing and removing good mos, detection radius, dodger, AP, and pd from the archers isn't...
Really they got nothing in return.
But det.... There is no point to an archer with det of you are not fighting packs of minis.... Not for this class
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:49 PM by Isavyr
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:58 AM
Saying "superior ranged combat" is a huge stretch at best. Archery has more conditions required for successful damage than any other skill line in the game and does less damage than other ranged skill lines once those narrow conditions are met. Definitely not "superior ranged combat".

You think assassins have better ranged combat than archers? Please, go on.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:52 PM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:49 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:58 AM
Saying "superior ranged combat" is a huge stretch at best. Archery has more conditions required for successful damage than any other skill line in the game and does less damage than other ranged skill lines once those narrow conditions are met. Definitely not "superior ranged combat".

You think assassins have better ranged combat than archers? Please, go on.

nobody said that you are twisting words
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:53 PM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:44 AM
then tell me how to defeat assassins with skill involved, maybe im just too bad.

We disagree on what archers should be capable of. I don't think they need a thing to help them fight assassins as they are already OK there--lose most the time, but not always. I wouldn't care if archers got vanish, because that's strictly defensive. But you aren't asking for strictly defensive measures, you want archers to beat assassins more.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:54 PM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:52 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:49 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:58 AM
Saying "superior ranged combat" is a huge stretch at best. Archery has more conditions required for successful damage than any other skill line in the game and does less damage than other ranged skill lines once those narrow conditions are met. Definitely not "superior ranged combat".

You think assassins have better ranged combat than archers? Please, go on.

nobody said that you are twisting words

Really? Because my comparison was obviously a comparison between archers and assassins. Read the post again, I'll wait.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:02 PM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:53 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:44 AM
then tell me how to defeat assassins with skill involved, maybe im just too bad.

We disagree on what archers should be capable of. I don't think they need a thing to help them fight assassins as they are already OK there--lose most the time, but not always. I wouldn't care if archers got vanish, because that's strictly defensive. But you aren't asking for strictly defensive measures, you want archers to beat assassins more.

okay you are the easy rp archer kill faction i understand. man i hope you get farmed as much as possible
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:26 PM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:53 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:44 AM
then tell me how to defeat assassins with skill involved, maybe im just too bad.

We disagree on what archers should be capable of. I don't think they need a thing to help them fight assassins as they are already OK there--lose most the time, but not always. I wouldn't care if archers got vanish, because that's strictly defensive. But you aren't asking for strictly defensive measures, you want archers to beat assassins more.

Why is that so bad? Should archers really just be a class that gets farmed by assassins?
Assassins win 9/10 of these fights.
It's not a lot to ask that the small buffs make it 7/10.......
I don't see this as fair. Not close
If an assassin caught at range isnt guaranteed to lose. Then why should an archer be if caught without it......
That's how it is right now.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 6:48 PM by Isavyr
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:26 PM
Why is that so bad? Should archers really just be a class that gets farmed by assassins?
Assassins win 9/10 of these fights.
It's not a lot to ask that the small buffs make it 7/10.......

Sure, if assassins can win ranged fights 3/10. Of course, the crossbow/throwingaxe/DD will need minimum of 2k range, and it's damage boosted at least 400% in order to be just slightly worse. Is that reasonable?
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:02 PM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 6:48 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:26 PM
Why is that so bad? Should archers really just be a class that gets farmed by assassins?
Assassins win 9/10 of these fights.
It's not a lot to ask that the small buffs make it 7/10.......

Sure, if assassins can win ranged fights 3/10. Of course, the crossbow/throwingaxe/DD will need minimum of 2k range, and it's damage boosted at least 400% in order to be just slightly worse. Is that reasonable?

whataboutism.... assassins cant spec ranged. archers can and they also can spec melee. if i understand you correct then you want melee spec completely removed for archers? do you even believe what you say?
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:28 PM by Isavyr
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:02 PM
whataboutism.... assassins cant spec ranged. archers can and they also can spec melee. if i understand you correct then you want melee spec completely removed for archers? do you even believe what you say?

No, you don't understand, and I'm not sure how to communicate to you such that you understand:
1) I believe each class has a niche. You apparently do not, so you advocate for buffs to archers that help them fight outside their niche (and beat up assassins). I think it's nonsensical because melee isn't the archer's primary niche, just like ranged combat isn't the assassin's primary niche (or secondary, for that matter). What you think is totally OK--it's an opinion. I just don't agree with the premise of breaking up the archetypes, so there's no amount of discussion that will make us agree here.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:55 PM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:28 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:02 PM
whataboutism.... assassins cant spec ranged. archers can and they also can spec melee. if i understand you correct then you want melee spec completely removed for archers? do you even believe what you say?

No, you don't understand, and I'm not sure how to communicate to you such that you understand:
1) I believe each class has a niche. You apparently do not, so you advocate for buffs to archers that help them fight outside their niche (and beat up assassins). I think it's nonsensical because melee isn't the archer's primary niche, just like ranged combat isn't the assassin's primary niche (or secondary, for that matter). What you think is totally OK--it's an opinion. I just don't agree with the premise of breaking up the archetypes, so there's no amount of discussion that will make us agree here.

i dont care what you believe because it is a fact that this is not the case... maybe for daoc 20 years ago but daoc evolved and this niche thing has changed very early. if this server would stick to niches why do all hybrids got det? why did some hybrids got further love .. like paladins and thanes? and also if you want an exact 1.65 daoc which i could somehow understand, still archers are nerfed because they dont have the tools they had back at this patch. archers are in fact broken because they had tools to compete in melee by original design which they dont have here. but speaking of archetypes... if you look at other games archers have tools there to kill assassins, mostly with bow abilities.. they dont have cool stuff in ther bow line in daoc, instead they can spec melee here. there is absolutely no point why a melee speced archer would not be able to compete with assassins. if that would be the case archers would only be able to kill other archers in ranged fights because they are not supposed to kill other archetypes? that doesnt make any sense.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:59 PM by Tillbeast
Just a rough suggestion is keep the detection ranges as is but deny assassins access to the mastery of stealth speed that's tied into stealth whilst more than 250 units away from an enemy. Makes sense that an assassin is slower than an archer as he has to be ultra quiet so archers don't spot him until its close hence the slow speed. Once assassin is within 250 units his stealth speed kicks in and he moves at whatever speed his stealth skill allows. Archers who fight from range don't need to be as quiet hence they are more easily spotted by assassins who pass nearby however they are more mobile so are difficult to pin down. An assassin will still see the archer first (250 range) but it will be more difficult to get into that range as archer is quicker.

Current assassin vs archer melee is fine as assassin wins...assassin also kills its other intended targets easier and quicker than an archer. All a caster does is quick cast a cc and archer is screwed if purge down. Caster with an assassin in his face has to purge before casting a qc and hope assassins purge is down.

Current detection rules make archers pretty much irrelevant in the game, no way to escape or avoid an assassin which is wrong. Assassins are easy mode at the moment and yes I have both a 50 sb although not template and a 50 hunter so I have some experience with both. My sb has 100% record vs archers....I was killing rr3 rangers when I was not even 50. Minstrels caused him more issues lol

To be honest don't know what can be done without a major change. Us archers just going to have to group up and zerg down the solo assassins...solo stealthing will not last long in my opinion unless changes made.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:21 PM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 6:48 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:26 PM
Why is that so bad? Should archers really just be a class that gets farmed by assassins?
Assassins win 9/10 of these fights.
It's not a lot to ask that the small buffs make it 7/10.......

Sure, if assassins can win ranged fights 3/10. Of course, the crossbow/throwingaxe/DD will need minimum of 2k range, and it's damage boosted at least 400% in order to be just slightly worse. Is that reasonable?

At this point just stop if you can't intelligently add to the conversation.
Assassins still win at a better than 3/10 times if an archer catches them at range.
High arrow evasion rate......
Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:37 PM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:28 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:02 PM
whataboutism.... assassins cant spec ranged. archers can and they also can spec melee. if i understand you correct then you want melee spec completely removed for archers? do you even believe what you say?

No, you don't understand, and I'm not sure how to communicate to you such that you understand:
1) I believe each class has a niche. You apparently do not, so you advocate for buffs to archers that help them fight outside their niche (and beat up assassins). I think it's nonsensical because melee isn't the archer's primary niche, just like ranged combat isn't the assassin's primary niche (or secondary, for that matter). What you think is totally OK--it's an opinion. I just don't agree with the premise of breaking up the archetypes, so there's no amount of discussion that will make us agree here.
An assassins primary skill isn't its melee either!
Stealth, envenom, and cs (a specialty line with no weapon attached to it)
I advocate to buff archers to fight within the niche they where designed for.
Ranged and close combat fighting.
Only later in the game did they become a range heavy stealther. That came with many other options, toys, and a change to the bow itself.
They had a bunch of Ras just to up their melee capability.
It's not outside of their supposed niche to fight well.
I'm not asking for envenom...
Just a small bump to evade and detection range.......
To make up for their losses as an archtype as a whole.....
We won't agree as long and archers remain easy RPS.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:41 PM by Isavyr
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:21 PM
Assassins still win at a better than 3/10 times if an archer catches them at range.
High arrow evasion rate......

In your view, ideally, what percentage of time should archer defeat assassin in 1v1?
Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:46 PM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:41 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:21 PM
Assassins still win at a better than 3/10 times if an archer catches them at range.
High arrow evasion rate......

In your view, ideally, what percentage of time should archer defeat assassin in 1v1?
Ideally 50-50... Never going to happen..
But I would settle for 70-30
Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:53 PM by Isavyr
Niget wrote:
Isavyr wrote: In your view, ideally, what percentage of time should archer defeat assassin in 1v1?
Ideally 50-50... Never going to happen..
But I would settle for 70-30

OK, I thought you might say that. And you don't see how absurd that is? That archers have this range advantage, and then win HALF the time in melee. Why the @#$( would you play an assassin in that circumstance if your best odds are 50%, and you have nothing to make up for it the rest of the time?
Thu 7 Feb 2019 10:03 PM by Niget
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 9:53 PM
Niget wrote:
Isavyr wrote: In your view, ideally, what percentage of time should archer defeat assassin in 1v1?
Ideally 50-50... Never going to happen..
But I would settle for 70-30

OK, I thought you might say that. And you don't see how absurd that is? That archers have this range advantage, and then win HALF the time in melee. Why the @#$( would you play an assassin in that circumstance if your best odds are 50%, and you have nothing to make up for it the rest of the time?

Oh you ment in melee only combat.
In melee only (no bow or pa used) I would say 8/10.
I was aiming at overall statistics.
But kite, shoot, melee, repeat archer routine should have at least a 30% success rate.
It in fact does not. Not close. It doesn't work 10% of the time.
Assassins evade tons of arrows but archers can't defend themselves in melee...
So unless archers should only be seen in small man packs and stealth zergs we should change this!
Side note - that was 70-30 in favor of the assassin.
Didn't seem really clear
Thu 7 Feb 2019 10:17 PM by Tillbeast
Why? Well you kill every class you are designed to kill much easier than how an archer kills. Far more risk an archer taking on a sorcerer for example than it is an assassin...you just stun it and kill it and purge his cc...not hard. An archer has to balance range....too close and he is in cc range and therefore interrupt range, too far and target just moves out of distance. Yes we can melee him down but its a lot slower than an assassin giving others time to aid.

I don't agree with some of the comments saying an archer should be able to beat an assassin in melee. In my opinion if an assassin catches an archer in melee its one dead archer 100% of time if assassin does everything right. If archer is lot higher RR than assassin then fair enough. However the way stealth detection works on Pheonix sucks. No way for an archer to avoid an assassin and we have no get out of jail free cards once engaged like an assassins vanish. All I want is a way that if I am paying attention I can spot and avoid an assassin.
Thu 7 Feb 2019 11:13 PM by Niget
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 10:17 PM
Why? Well you kill every class you are designed to kill much easier than how an archer kills. Far more risk an archer taking on a sorcerer for example than it is an assassin...you just stun it and kill it and purge his cc...not hard. An archer has to balance range....too close and he is in cc range and therefore interrupt range, too far and target just moves out of distance. Yes we can melee him down but its a lot slower than an assassin giving others time to aid.

I don't agree with some of the comments saying an archer should be able to beat an assassin in melee. In my opinion if an assassin catches an archer in melee its one dead archer 100% of time if assassin does everything right. If archer is lot higher RR than assassin then fair enough. However the way stealth detection works on Pheonix sucks. No way for an archer to avoid an assassin and we have no get out of jail free cards once engaged like an assassins vanish. All I want is a way that if I am paying attention I can spot and avoid an assassin.

See and that isn't fair either.
I don't recall any one saying that an archer should take an assassin in straight melee. (Melee archers should be harder than hybrids.)
But the fight should be more even. Not just leave the area if there is an assassin. What is the point to having weapon spec at all if it's only good on casters?
Thu 7 Feb 2019 11:41 PM by Zansobar
The fundamental problem with archers is that archery damage is low and it raises very very minutely with spec level. This means that archers are being forced into more of a melee role because they have more spec points to put into melee since they are wasted putting them into bow. If high spec bow damage was boosted (a lot) then more archers would be going the sniper route and the problem of how does an archer perform in melee would be much less an issue since archers would at least have a niche role as a sniper. This being said, the other problem is that assassins have been boosted on this server quite a bit, and archers have been nerfed quite a bit...I can only assume an archer must have kicked a dev's dog in the past sometime, either that, or the devs simply do not think having archers with good bow damage are a good thing for the server (I would assume as they believe more casters are good for the server since that is the natural prey for archers with good bow damage).

Of course back at 1.65 archers had access to Physical Defense RA and could spec a certain way to be effective in melee. As has been discussed the giving of free MOS with built in detection advantage for assassins has locked in the assassin as the top dog in stealth melee no matter if an archer did get PD or not, he simply won't be able to avoid that perf artery with any consistency. As is, if MOS isn't changed or moved back to a buyable RA I don't think anything will ever change in melee, and with bow damage being so low archers are not going to make a living being a sniper either.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 2:09 AM by Isavyr
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 11:41 PM
The fundamental problem with archers is that archery damage is low and it raises very very minutely with spec level. This means that archers are being forced into more of a melee role because they have more spec points to put into melee since they are wasted putting them into bow. If high spec bow damage was boosted (a lot) then more archers would be going the sniper route and the problem of how does an archer perform in melee would be much less an issue since archers would at least have a niche role as a sniper. This being said, the other problem is that assassins have been boosted on this server quite a bit, and archers have been nerfed quite a bit

Unfortunately the problem of low reward vs high expenditure spec exists across many specs--you can spend >50% of your spec points going from 35-50 and get very little return. Stealth has this problem--it's a pity that the high stealth levels don't give more of a return--significantly faster speed, for example.

If the higher levels of stealth gave significantly better speed, this would be a neat dynamic. Archers on the move would be able to flank more safely and effectively, but still suffer when they get hit by an assassin (as they ought to, imo).

I do like the idea of archers getting a stealthed movement speed bonus, as that contributes to their flanking behavior, and fits their theme (someone that scouts, roams, or pursues game). It could be as simple as improving top tiers of stealth.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 2:19 AM by Frieza
IMO you dont play a archer type to be a solo stealther. If you want to be solo, go the inf/sb/ns.

Archer types are great as hitting, killing and running/hiding, and if dmg is going to remain low (intended or not), havign 2+ friends with good communication can work much much better.

I think the problem people have with archer types is a few things, dmg, high viability from ns/inf/sb. This imo is solved by group 1+ other archer.

I used to play ranger for ages on other servers and i did very well, but i only ever went out in rvr when i had a ns or another ranger with me. I knew going solo would mean i die. However i had a NS for that.

I had the NS friend stand inside on me, and when i was PA'd by another, my NS would then PA them, it would give me 1-1.5 secs to run away to get to safety and we almost always got a kill.

With 2 rangers, if i got PA'd the other ranger would side stun/snare and id IP/ purge or both. Still a win.

Basically its a numbers game imo - you dont play archer types to solo. Robin hood was famous as robin hood and his merry men right?
Fri 8 Feb 2019 3:04 AM by Afuldan
Frieza wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 2:19 AM
IMO you dont play a archer type to be a solo stealther. If you want to be solo, go the inf/sb/ns.

Archer types are great as hitting, killing and running/hiding, and if dmg is going to remain low (intended or not), havign 2+ friends with good communication can work much much better.

I think the problem people have with archer types is a few things, dmg, high viability from ns/inf/sb. This imo is solved by group 1+ other archer.

I used to play ranger for ages on other servers and i did very well, but i only ever went out in rvr when i had a ns or another ranger with me. I knew going solo would mean i die. However i had a NS for that.

I had the NS friend stand inside on me, and when i was PA'd by another, my NS would then PA them, it would give me 1-1.5 secs to run away to get to safety and we almost always got a kill.

With 2 rangers, if i got PA'd the other ranger would side stun/snare and id IP/ purge or both. Still a win.

Basically its a numbers game imo - you dont play archer types to solo. Robin hood was famous as robin hood and his merry men right?

Haha, look at me with my fancy bow! Come and get me! I swear I’m easy RP’s!

Ahh, I should roll a stealther next.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:18 AM by Niget
Frieza wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 2:19 AM
IMO you dont play a archer type to be a solo stealther. If you want to be solo, go the inf/sb/ns.

Archer types are great as hitting, killing and running/hiding, and if dmg is going to remain low (intended or not), havign 2+ friends with good communication can work much much better.

I think the problem people have with archer types is a few things, dmg, high viability from ns/inf/sb. This imo is solved by group 1+ other archer.

I used to play ranger for ages on other servers and i did very well, but i only ever went out in rvr when i had a ns or another ranger with me. I knew going solo would mean i die. However i had a NS for that.

I had the NS friend stand inside on me, and when i was PA'd by another, my NS would then PA them, it would give me 1-1.5 secs to run away to get to safety and we almost always got a kill.

With 2 rangers, if i got PA'd the other ranger would side stun/snare and id IP/ purge or both. Still a win.

Basically its a numbers game imo - you dont play archer types to solo. Robin hood was famous as robin hood and his merry men right?

I do play this arch type to solo. It's not the easiest. A little skill goes a long ways.
That being said this is still the worst server for that.

But you think it is fine to be a classic archer set up with nf ras. Lacking any of the toys to defend yourself. (Except ip) so just zerg because that's easier.

Assassins are the only solo stealther. There for should be vastly more powerful. So much so that other stealth classes caught by them should have no choice but to zerg them down.

If I want to solo my only option should be an assassin.

Did I get that right?

Because archer in every other instance of this game, in every time line, had the tools or Ras they needed to be able to compete solo.
Why is that so hard to understand?
Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:51 AM by Frieza
Niget wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:18 AM
Frieza wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 2:19 AM
IMO you dont play a archer type to be a solo stealther. If you want to be solo, go the inf/sb/ns.

Archer types are great as hitting, killing and running/hiding, and if dmg is going to remain low (intended or not), havign 2+ friends with good communication can work much much better.

I think the problem people have with archer types is a few things, dmg, high viability from ns/inf/sb. This imo is solved by group 1+ other archer.

I used to play ranger for ages on other servers and i did very well, but i only ever went out in rvr when i had a ns or another ranger with me. I knew going solo would mean i die. However i had a NS for that.

I had the NS friend stand inside on me, and when i was PA'd by another, my NS would then PA them, it would give me 1-1.5 secs to run away to get to safety and we almost always got a kill.

With 2 rangers, if i got PA'd the other ranger would side stun/snare and id IP/ purge or both. Still a win.

Basically its a numbers game imo - you dont play archer types to solo. Robin hood was famous as robin hood and his merry men right?

I do play this arch type to solo. It's not the easiest. A little skill goes a long ways.
That being said this is still the worst server for that.

But you think it is fine to be a classic archer set up with nf ras. Lacking any of the toys to defend yourself. (Except ip) so just zerg because that's easier.

Assassins are the only solo stealther. There for should be vastly more powerful. So much so that other stealth classes caught by them should have no choice but to zerg them down.

If I want to solo my only option should be an assassin.

Did I get that right?

Because archer in every other instance of this game, in every time line, had the tools or Ras they needed to be able to compete solo.
Why is that so hard to understand?

I suppose if you wanted to get technical, and you go back to previous patches, Archers were made like this and then changed (so i still think im right in my view), heck ive seen videos on live where a melee ranger out dps an inf and almost seems unstoppable, taking out BDs with no stealth after taking down a merc. Wheres the logic in that?

I honestly think Archers were made/ designed to be a group stealther class, not a solo, otherwise why would you ever need inf/sb/ns? If a ranger can compete with a inf, then arguably most people would chose a ranger, would you not? less risk at the same reward and you can get away. I get the argument that this isnt possible currently with low bow dps, but imagine bow dps x2 i.e. you have a friend, then its easy to mow down most chars between them and if they get a chance to stop you both (you co-ord and spread so 2 quickcasts are needed - which no caster has = youre smart).

I just think a lot of people like the idea of archer types a lot and feel like they should solo as good as everyone else, but to me, i dont think thats the intention.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:25 AM by Isavyr
Niget wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:18 AM
If I want to solo my only option should be an assassin.
Did I get that right?

You can definitely solo on an archer, but you increase your risk if you go in high traffic or stealther-predictable areas. It feels a bit cheap for you to say "I shouldn't solo because someone else has an advantage over me". That's classic DAOC.

Most classes have a counter, and you cannot expect any particular class to beat everyone. Yet, many people still solo despite having huge disadvantages against some classes. For example, a solo caster will only beat a brain damaged BD. A solo melee will only beat a brain damaged necromancer.

I'm not saying archers are 100% developed, but your example doesn't bring that point home, because every class experiences this to some degree.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:33 AM by inoeth
too much opinions much less facts. again i dont care what you guys "believe" what archers "should" be .... in fact archers ALWAYS had tools to compete in melee.
i played melee hunter for over 10 years on live servers, it was hard vs assassins but there was a good chance to beat them. here on phoenix archers are just easy rp for assassins, where is the logic to that? ohter classes get love, archers get nerfed? did you guys ever played live daoc? i guess not otherwise you would not make those stupid assumptions.
"why would i ever play assassisn if i get beaten by archers?" what stupid question is that? you could also ask why would i ever play a caster if i get beaten by xyz class?
also this playing assassin is high risk blablabla is nonesense, where is playing assassin high risk? you can smash faces in seconds and if it gets dangerous you simply fire vanish... there is no risk at all.
playing archer is risky because you can suddenly get perfed everywhere without even foreshadow it. and then you are dead without a chance to counter or to escape.

i had a fights yesterday with my rr4 hunter vs rr3 ns.. he perfed me for 300, which was not too much so i decided to purge and ip, had 2 heal procs going off and i used 1 heal pot, still lost that fight and the ns escaped with 30% and did not use any active RA ....its just lol how powerfull assassins are. if i pay tons of realm points to get abilities like purge and ip i expect them to be usefull but they are not vs assassins. where is the logic in that?
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:35 AM by inoeth
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:25 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:18 AM
If I want to solo my only option should be an assassin.
Did I get that right?

You can definitely solo on an archer, but you increase your risk if you go in high traffic or stealther-predictable areas. It feels a bit cheap for you to say "I shouldn't solo because someone else has an advantage over me". That's classic DAOC.

Most classes have a counter, and you cannot expect any particular class to beat everyone. Yet, many people still solo despite having huge disadvantages against some classes. For example, a solo caster will only beat a brain damaged BD. A solo melee will only beat a brain damaged necromancer.

I'm not saying archers are 100% developed, but your example doesn't bring that point home, because every class experiences this to some degree.

well in particular this is not classic daoc because back then archers had the tools!!!! here they dont have.
Do not pretend your defending classic daoc when in reality it is just your opinion without recognizing fatcs
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:39 AM by Isavyr
Frieza wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:51 AM
I get the argument that this isnt possible currently with low bow dps, but imagine bow dps x2 i.e. you have a friend, then its easy to mow down most chars between them and if they get a chance to stop you both (you co-ord and spread so 2 quickcasts are needed - which no caster has = youre smart).

A lot of people have said that archer's bow suffers from poor DPS--actually their bow DPS is quite good, physically stronger than an assassin, and obviously with significant range. It just doesn't kill most targets in a few hits.

Also, hate to nitpick, but casters can get concentration which allows a second quickcast. But it's a moot point, because most stealthers have a low CD purge.
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:10 PM by Niget
Frieza wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:51 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 5:18 AM
Frieza wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 2:19 AM
IMO you dont play a archer type to be a solo stealther. If you want to be solo, go the inf/sb/ns.

Archer types are great as hitting, killing and running/hiding, and if dmg is going to remain low (intended or not), havign 2+ friends with good communication can work much much better.

I think the problem people have with archer types is a few things, dmg, high viability from ns/inf/sb. This imo is solved by group 1+ other archer.

I used to play ranger for ages on other servers and i did very well, but i only ever went out in rvr when i had a ns or another ranger with me. I knew going solo would mean i die. However i had a NS for that.

I had the NS friend stand inside on me, and when i was PA'd by another, my NS would then PA them, it would give me 1-1.5 secs to run away to get to safety and we almost always got a kill.

With 2 rangers, if i got PA'd the other ranger would side stun/snare and id IP/ purge or both. Still a win.

Basically its a numbers game imo - you dont play archer types to solo. Robin hood was famous as robin hood and his merry men right?

I do play this arch type to solo. It's not the easiest. A little skill goes a long ways.
That being said this is still the worst server for that.

But you think it is fine to be a classic archer set up with nf ras. Lacking any of the toys to defend yourself. (Except ip) so just zerg because that's easier.

Assassins are the only solo stealther. There for should be vastly more powerful. So much so that other stealth classes caught by them should have no choice but to zerg them down.

If I want to solo my only option should be an assassin.

Did I get that right?

Because archer in every other instance of this game, in every time line, had the tools or Ras they needed to be able to compete solo.
Why is that so hard to understand?

I suppose if you wanted to get technical, and you go back to previous patches, Archers were made like this and then changed (so i still think im right in my view), heck ive seen videos on live where a melee ranger out dps an inf and almost seems unstoppable, taking out BDs with no stealth after taking down a merc. Wheres the logic in that?

I honestly think Archers were made/ designed to be a group stealther class, not a solo, otherwise why would you ever need inf/sb/ns? If a ranger can compete with a inf, then arguably most people would chose a ranger, would you not? less risk at the same reward and you can get away. I get the argument that this isnt possible currently with low bow dps, but imagine bow dps x2 i.e. you have a friend, then its easy to mow down most chars between them and if they get a chance to stop you both (you co-ord and spread so 2 quickcasts are needed - which no caster has = youre smart).

I just think a lot of people like the idea of archer types a lot and feel like they should solo as good as everyone else, but to me, i dont think thats the intention.
You can't use live in it's current state in this argument.
There is more to that balance match up on live than you think....
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:12 PM by inoeth
still no comment from developers... where are you guys?
Fri 8 Feb 2019 9:41 PM by inoeth
anothers hunter issue: pet dmg deastealthes.... this was introduced after the pet love patch (where pet got garotte/desease) but here hunters have to suffer from this...
it is all these little things that makes playing hunter really really painfull. i dont know what hunters have done that they have to suffer here so much
Mon 11 Feb 2019 10:47 PM by Cadebrennus
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 7:12 PM
still no comment from developers... where are you guys?

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