Why endurance change to something that was never on any live server?

Started 1 Nov 2018
by Sotor
in Ask the Team
Hi, see above.
Wont play on Phoenix anymore until the endurance is similar to "live like" or any freeshard again and all people dont need more "tireless" or "long wind" to actually not lose any endurance with total of endu5.

Greetings
Thu 1 Nov 2018 9:03 PM by gruenesschaf
Good thing that it is live like now, actually a bit better still.

Tireless 1.65: useless 1 end every combat reg tick (about every 6 seconds)
Tireless currently on live: endu 1 but doesn't stack at all with any kind of endurance regen
Here: Tireless 1 = endu 1, Tireless 2 = endu 2 and stacks up to a total of at most endu 3.
Thu 1 Nov 2018 10:53 PM by Tyran
So many cry babies.

Go play LOL or some other craps if you have nothing better to say.

Thanks the Dev to your patience when dealing with such kids.
Fri 2 Nov 2018 9:25 AM by Druth
I really like that they are willing to test things like this.
Imo, sprint is waaaay to cheap (still is). Permasprint should not be a thing, it should be used in fights for short periods.
Fri 2 Nov 2018 12:29 PM by keen
Sotor wrote:
Thu 1 Nov 2018 7:56 PM
Hi, see above.
Wont play on Phoenix anymore until the endurance is similar to "live like" or any freeshard again and all people dont need more "tireless" or "long wind" to actually not lose any endurance with total of endu5.

Greetings
1.65 live like is 2min endu potion, you see where this is going?
Fri 2 Nov 2018 12:48 PM by Oranius
All dat mid/hib crying about 10min pot afraid about alb team ahah. Just prefer to fight a setup of 7 alb with paladin for endurance but says nothing about deter skald diesease cure warden or more xd
Fri 2 Nov 2018 5:33 PM by Sotor
KK thx bye blamers and flamers. .
Fri 2 Nov 2018 9:50 PM by Sepplord
Druth wrote:
Fri 2 Nov 2018 9:25 AM
I really like that they are willing to test things like this.
Imo, sprint is waaaay to cheap (still is). Permasprint should not be a thing, it should be used in fights for short periods.

exactly my feeling...permasprint should NOT be the standard
and high endurance regeneration fucks with style balance too, since high-end-cost styles have their downside (the high end cost) removed

i am glad they reverted the sprint changes, and on live without the fullbuff regpots endurance will also be a ressource to manage
Sat 3 Nov 2018 12:52 AM by Bethoc
There will always be a speed standard. Removing the ease of permasprint speed 6 will simply skew fights in favor of groups that prioritize it, returning us to an unequal playing field. The freedom to engage and disengage will no longer be universal, it will be decided by dedicated 8v8 groups who have all invested in potions and the appropriate Long Wind level for their class. LW2 for casters, LW3+ for melee. Anyone who wants to match them without being run down like dogs will have to consider if everyone in their group is able to permasprint. This became a nonissue due to its cheapness paired with potions, but now it isn't. You'd better have a bard on endo song duty, enough conc on your shaman, or by some blessing of luck, an actual paladin in Albion. The only class among those three that lacked appeal in groups was the paladin, whose utility could have been further buffed in some other way that didn't upturn a major QoL feature on the server.

This change is a significant nerf to melees who will struggle to stick onto targets, an incentive to favor caster compositions that only need LW2, and a death blow to small man and casual pickup group viability. Players will adapt, because we know how this works from Uthgard and live, but the effects are disproportionate and in my view diminish RvR balance and overall appeal. Expect more sitting around waiting for the right class, and disregarding other classes because they no longer fit your narrower required composition.
Sat 3 Nov 2018 12:58 AM by Ganaka
Why not stop Sprint from stacking with Speed 6? It would seem to an easier solution that spending a load of time trying to balance things...
Sat 3 Nov 2018 4:19 AM by Cadebrennus
Ganaka wrote:
Sat 3 Nov 2018 12:58 AM
Why not stop Sprint from stacking with Speed 6? It would seem to an easier solution that spending a load of time trying to balance things...

Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:40 AM by Isavyr
Bethoc wrote:
Sat 3 Nov 2018 12:52 AM
There will always be a speed standard. Removing the ease of permasprint speed 6 will simply skew fights in favor of groups that prioritize it, returning us to an unequal playing field.
This change is a significant nerf to melees who will struggle to stick onto targets, an incentive to favor caster compositions that only need LW2, and a death blow to small man and casual pickup group viability.

Bethoc, this is nonsense. Players can still have perma-sprint without endo classes by doing LW2 + elixir, though it's questionable if this is desirable--if everyone has sprint, nobody has sprint, and if it's universally used without constraint it might as well not even exist. Going forward, small-man will still have a lot of choices, and permanent sprint isn't the only tool to victory.
Sat 3 Nov 2018 10:32 AM by Bethoc
Isavyr wrote:
Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:40 AM
Bethoc wrote:
Sat 3 Nov 2018 12:52 AM
There will always be a speed standard. Removing the ease of permasprint speed 6 will simply skew fights in favor of groups that prioritize it, returning us to an unequal playing field.
This change is a significant nerf to melees who will struggle to stick onto targets, an incentive to favor caster compositions that only need LW2, and a death blow to small man and casual pickup group viability.

Bethoc, this is nonsense. Players can still have perma-sprint without endo classes by doing LW2 + elixir, though it's questionable if this is desirable--if everyone has sprint, nobody has sprint, and if it's universally used without constraint it might as well not even exist. Going forward, small-man will still have a lot of choices, and permanent sprint isn't the only tool to victory.

We'll have to wait and see how common it is for players to invest in LW - the RP cost for permasprint was effectively doubled. If everyone does invest, then yes, groups do remain on equal footing. If not, the one without permasprint is at a disadvantage. They can obviously still win a fight, which is besides the point. Why encourage possible disparity? There is zero skill involved in running down opponents who happen to lack as much endurance regeneration, nor is it strategically interesting. I would say that the constraint shouldn't exist as a 'tool to victory' at all, and its removal is a QoL improvement. What should impact the ability to engage is situational awareness and intelligent maneuvering around a zone.

In closing and like I said, there will always be a speed standard, and the only difference is its prevalence; that is, what % of the population attains it. If too few do, then casual pickups suffer. People reading this should consider for themselves whether they even want to see a group having full engage/disengage freedom over another group due to an endurance edge.
Sat 3 Nov 2018 1:36 PM by jhaerik
Tyran wrote:
Thu 1 Nov 2018 10:53 PM
So many cry babies.

Go play LOL or some other craps if you have nothing better to say.

Thanks the Dev to your patience when dealing with such kids.

This is the attitude the fine people at Uthgard took.

Did them REAAAAAL well.
Sat 3 Nov 2018 2:00 PM by Isavyr
Bethoc wrote:
Sat 3 Nov 2018 10:32 AM
Why encourage possible disparity? There is zero skill involved in running down opponents who happen to lack as much endurance regeneration, nor is it strategically interesting.

This argument goes for many things in this game, it makes me wonder why you pick endurance from the crowd. Why does bard get speed 5 but enchanter speed 3? This forces people to use 3 classes--minstrel, skald, or bard--to have top speed. Why do only 3 classes get long-duration AoE mezz? This forces people to use 3 classes to lock down enemy groups proficiently. Why do only 3 classes get spec d/q, s/c? Etc.

The answer is that classes offer unique abilities as part of the game, and this forces groups to limit themselves to the strengths that are important to them. The fact that endo is another mechanic, which separates higher skilled players from lower skilled players, is DAoC in short--very unforgiving if you don't have ability. There's a lot to attack if you want to limit the disparity between player skill, but you would be fundamentally changing what many like about DAoC--the tactics, skill, and teamwork.

That's not to suggest everything is perfect--there are some abilities which are too important to pass over. But I don't think permanent sprint is one of them.
Sat 3 Nov 2018 3:15 PM by Sepplord
there are two main problem for/against easy endurance:

Easy endurance for all reduces realm imbalance and gives all groups speed6 easily, instead of punishing one realm more than others

BUT

it also screws with style balance, as the endurance cost of a style doesn't matter much


There is an easy solution, and it has already been posted here, but i want to stress how good it would be and sort out most problems:

Don't let sprint and Speed5 stack. Make speed5 the max speed, let sprint stack with other speeds and keep endu as it is now.
Sun 4 Nov 2018 1:04 AM by Bethoc
Isavyr wrote:
Sat 3 Nov 2018 2:00 PM
Bethoc wrote:
Sat 3 Nov 2018 10:32 AM
Why encourage possible disparity? There is zero skill involved in running down opponents who happen to lack as much endurance regeneration, nor is it strategically interesting.

This argument goes for many things in this game, it makes me wonder why you pick endurance from the crowd. Why does bard get speed 5 but enchanter speed 3? This forces people to use 3 classes--minstrel, skald, or bard--to have top speed. Why do only 3 classes get long-duration AoE mezz? This forces people to use 3 classes to lock down enemy groups proficiently. Why do only 3 classes get spec d/q, s/c? Etc.

The answer is that classes offer unique abilities as part of the game, and this forces groups to limit themselves to the strengths that are important to them. The fact that endo is another mechanic, which separates higher skilled players from lower skilled players, is DAoC in short--very unforgiving if you don't have ability. There's a lot to attack if you want to limit the disparity between player skill, but you would be fundamentally changing what many like about DAoC--the tactics, skill, and teamwork.

That's not to suggest everything is perfect--there are some abilities which are too important to pass over. But I don't think permanent sprint is one of them.

Why pick endurance? The change just happened, which merits discussion. Nothing about permasprint is different besides cost, as you yourself have stated. There's an array of other effects that do touch on class balance and the strength of melees relative to casters. Endurance in relation to permasprint doesn't involve skill, but investment, and as I've been repeating, lack of investment will detrimentally and disproportionately impact pickup groups over pre-mades. If I am wrong with my assumption, great, everyone wasted 4 realm points that could have been put elsewhere. If I'm right, then the guilds who collectively sunk the points can congratulate themselves on their superior foresight while smashing the slow, pathetic masses.

As for the suggestion by Ganaka to decouple sprint from speed 5 and disallow speed 6 entirely, that would be a simple solution, though a little awkward when hitting the sprint key to no effect. It would also reduce max travel speed in all zones. I would support it over weakening of Long Wind, Tireless, or endurance potions.
Mon 5 Nov 2018 8:51 AM by Sei
Old system gave people really Bad habits about endu.

And i m surprised to not see all those "pur classic livres" not arguing that you Always needed 2 class (or Bard twist) per realm to get perma speed6
Tue 6 Nov 2018 11:41 PM by Vack
Capping speed at speed 5 is probably the most intelligent ways to balance the realms.

Isn't it ironic that sometimes the best solution is the one that is in plain sight.
Wed 7 Nov 2018 12:41 AM by Cadebrennus
Unless Casters are also penalised in some way for using their core abilities (ie adding a more significant endurance cost to casting) then the whole balance is tipped heavily in favour of casters.
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