How to deal with the Stealth problem

Started 20 Oct 2018
by Cadebrennus
in Suggestions
Put in NF Mastery of Stealth RA. Make it available to all Stealthers except Minstrels. Make it available to all main Tanks (not Hybrids).
Sat 20 Oct 2018 2:56 PM by Jax
The solution to the stealth problem is to give an alternative to solo / small man groups other than Stealth or Speed classes. This alternative doesn't exist because of Speed 6. If you are a visible class, you must have Speed 6 otherwise your experience is dog shit because you get gobbled up by bigger forcers (8 mans or zergs).

Remove the ability for Sprint + Speed to stack.
Implement Speed 5 mounts that take a 5 second cast time and get knocked off with damage.

This will fix the stealth problem because it gives people alternatives to play. I hate the stealther class - yet I have to play it because I prefer the non-8 man or zerg play style.
Sat 20 Oct 2018 5:18 PM by Turtle006
Make people earn the exp from 1-50 on a stealther and there will be a whole lot less of them. In other words, I don't think it will be as big an issue once beta is done.
Sat 20 Oct 2018 5:29 PM by Ganaka
Turtle006 wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018 5:18 PM
Make people earn the exp from 1-50 on a stealther and there will be a whole lot less of them. In other words, I don't think it will be as big an issue once beta is done.

XP items can be banked and moved to alt characters. Leveling a Stealther will actually be easy if you create a farming character. A BD, Shroomer, or Necro will collect XP items fast. A good player can solo pretty well with an archer, so getting to 50 won't take too much longer if someone only plays 1 character. There won't be nearly the struggle in leveling a Stealther here as apposed to the early days of DAOC.
Sat 20 Oct 2018 10:20 PM by Turtle006
Can only use 10 exp items per level, so it isn't as easy as all that. I agree, it is easier than it was on live, but even getting 50% of the exp from 1-50 is not that easy on a stealther. Maybe the 5% unique class bonus will help, but I still think it is too early to dub this a stealth server.
Sat 20 Oct 2018 10:47 PM by Ganaka
It will be cake if you have a buddy. One of you plays the Necro/BD/Shroom the other plays the Stealther, then swap.

I remember people in 2002 having more than 25 days played to get level 50 on a Nightshade. It will take 1/10 that time here. There is no woe-is-me on Pheonix for anyone.
Sun 21 Oct 2018 3:52 AM by Turtle006
Maybe you are right, still a boring playstyle to do for 48 hours plus, and requires a buddy. A lot of the complaints I am seeing are that 40-50% of the population is stealthers, I am unconvinced it will stay that high (or even close to that) when the server goes live. If it does, then we can talk about how to change that.
Sun 21 Oct 2018 11:58 AM by Zeglamancer
StealthLore charges/potions.


25 second buff. No sound bite or colored effect on activation, except the character drinking a potion animation AND a combat log entry, something like, 'PLAYERNAME becomes more aware of the shadows!' This message should alert to any player of all 3 realms, within 700 units of the location StealthLore was activated.


The effects range should be 25% of the alert's range, or 175 units. It should be a steady buff working at all times during buff duration. Which will detect and reveal any player in range with the Stealth skill activated. Players who are camoflauged should not be revealed but the camoflauge should begin blinking and fade off in 10s . It should then be removed and the player receices a combat log entry stating they stumbled a bit in the presence of such heightened awareness, the SL using player should receive an ambiguous message in the combat log the moment they caused Camoflauge to begin blinking, stating they were able to sense the movements of something that's one false step away from being caught. The archers Camoflauge should gain a 1min cooldown when it drops in this fashion.

If the player gets in range again of the archer again while Camoflauge is down, they are revealed in stealth like normal to the SL potion player.

Any class can use SL potion, however, it overrides any other means of detection a player might have.
Players should drop out of stealth upon using it, be unable to stealth themselves while under it's effects, and the potion should have somethung like a 5-7minute reuse timer. Which is separate from all buff/heal potions timers.

Make this potion tradeable to players, droppable, destroyable, sellable, and ONLY buyable from NPC merchants for BOUNTY POINTS. Restrict it from being sold on consignment merchants.

I think you should add a special blue con to a L50 player, BP merchant in RVR zones. I would have them patrol from CS/Cain/svasud on out to the mile Gates of both enemy realms, wait at each gate for 2-3mins then move on and complete back at town. Make these merchants aggressive realm guards who drop a SL potion upon death. The potion should not be expensive. 10- 20 bounty points per potion, or dropped free if you slay an enemy realm merchant. There should be a realm alert indicating the map the merchant was slain in but not name the player, just the realm that slayed the merchant.

A player shall be limited to carrying a maximum amount of current realm rank + 2 at any given time.


This gives stealthers a reason to be on their toes, this also adds dynamic to the mile gate camping RVR encounters. Simply standing in the doorway waiting to PA the next passerby becomes a harder task if they have a chance to see you.

I would also include a unique spell effect expired message when the buff wears off.

The Hunter becomes the Hunted. Sincw stealthers are alerted you're SL wore off and will know you're on cooldown for a few minutes.
Sun 21 Oct 2018 12:25 PM by inoeth
Turtle006 wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018 5:18 PM
Make people earn the exp from 1-50 on a stealther and there will be a whole lot less of them. In other words, I don't think it will be as big an issue once beta is done.

shitty lvling never stoppewd ppl from playing stealthers ... see autotrain mincer lol
Sun 21 Oct 2018 4:51 PM by Ombrix
Jax wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018 2:56 PM
The solution to the stealth problem is to give an alternative to solo / small man groups other than Stealth or Speed classes. This alternative doesn't exist because of Speed 6. If you are a visible class, you must have Speed 6 otherwise your experience is dog shit because you get gobbled up by bigger forcers (8 mans or zergs).

Remove the ability for Sprint + Speed to stack.
Implement Speed 5 mounts that take a 5 second cast time and get knocked off with damage.

This will fix the stealth problem because it gives people alternatives to play. I hate the stealther class - yet I have to play it because I prefer the non-8 man or zerg play style.

🙏🏽
Mon 22 Oct 2018 7:13 AM by Sei
Jax wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018 2:56 PM
The solution to the stealth problem is to give an alternative to solo / small man groups other than Stealth or Speed classes. This alternative doesn't exist because of Speed 6. If you are a visible class, you must have Speed 6 otherwise your experience is dog shit because you get gobbled up by bigger forcers (8 mans or zergs).

Remove the ability for Sprint + Speed to stack.
Implement Speed 5 mounts that take a 5 second cast time and get knocked off with damage.

This will fix the stealth problem because it gives people alternatives to play. I hate the stealther class - yet I have to play it because I prefer the non-8 man or zerg play style.

I agree with all if your observations, however i still cant find any proper solution to make smallman/ non speedclass viable with the daoc game design, except joining the zerg, which is actually what happens.

I know it s not a popular opinion here, but i think people should stop deny the reality of daoc that you described perfectly.
Mon 22 Oct 2018 11:00 PM by Monkies
I don’t think it will be a problem once live begins. It’s really not that much of a problem now when there’s population. The whole thing gets magnified when the population is really low. When numbers are low the server pop tends to clump into 8 mans, mini zergs and the odd solo or smallman trying to dodge the big dogs. My crew happen to be one of the odd smallman bunch and it’s really tough but I think we all believe that it will improve on release. An alternative is to sneak around on a stealth class and people that want to play when the pop is low are going to look to an option that offers a shot at a fight before /rel.
Saturday afternoon was great example of this in my opinion. The only complaint I really heard was that the stealth cap was activated, but as I understand it, that’s only for beta testing purposes. Population will make a big difference, both up and down. I don’t think using beta population as a litmus for live is a fair comparison for the issues being discussed.

Monkeys/Dogbyte
Mon 22 Oct 2018 11:18 PM by Cadebrennus
All good points Monkies/Dogbyte but I think DAOC is missing a big part of the rock paper scissors equation in that scissors (stealthers) can hide with impunity from rock (tanks, light and heavy). Paper (casters) are where they should be in relation to rock and scissors.

Giving light tanks some MOS that they have to spend RPs on would help balance the stealth equation.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 7:51 AM by Sei
Just let people play this game the way they want

You will not force them to create group putting a stealth cap and it s part of the game
Thu 25 Oct 2018 10:49 AM by Tree
Im not playing a stealth class nor do I plan to, but I still feel limiting the core mechanic of an entire class type is bad for the game. I hope its just a beta feature and will be gone on live.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 2:57 PM by Cadebrennus
This is why I'm advocating that light tanks get a version of MoS. It allows stealthers to play the way the want to play but it also gives them a counter.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 3:22 PM by kedelin
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 25 Oct 2018 2:57 PM
This is why I'm advocating that light tanks get a version of MoS. It allows stealthers to play the way the want to play but it also gives them a counter.

Like light tanks are not powerful enough you wanna give them mos??? If you run around on anystealther un stealth you don't stand a chance in melee... the element of surprise is a sneaks best offense
Thu 25 Oct 2018 4:24 PM by Tree
I agree there is no need. My main on Live at 1.65 was a nightshade and tanks as well as hybrids were always a risky target. Not only do you need to time your attack perfectly, you also have to finish the fight fast, because dragged out fights deminish your chances of winning and increase the risk of other players adding.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 6:01 PM by Cadebrennus
kedelin wrote:
Thu 25 Oct 2018 3:22 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Thu 25 Oct 2018 2:57 PM
This is why I'm advocating that light tanks get a version of MoS. It allows stealthers to play the way the want to play but it also gives them a counter.

Like light tanks are not powerful enough you wanna give them mos??? If you run around on anystealther un stealth you don't stand a chance in melee... the element of surprise is a sneaks best offense

You are 100% correct. Healers, Nukers and Archers are all fodder for Assassins. Currently there is no reliable counter to stealthers but giving light tanks MoS would finally provide that counter.

Giving light tanks MoS would finally slot in stealthers into the rock/paper/scissors game here.

FYI my main is a stealther
Thu 25 Oct 2018 6:38 PM by imissswg
IIRC MoS on this server only increases movement speed while stealthed, and not detect range. Even if they made it where it influences detect range, how many LTs are going to spend enough RPs for MoS 6 just to be even with stealthers? A solo stealther will still avoid you, and a stealth zerg will still kill you.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 7:12 PM by Cadebrennus
imissswg wrote:
Thu 25 Oct 2018 6:38 PM
IIRC MoS on this server only increases movement speed while stealthed, and not detect range. Even if they made it where it influences detect range, how many LTs are going to spend enough RPs for MoS 6 just to be even with stealthers? A solo stealther will still avoid you, and a stealth zerg will still kill you.

I am talking about NF MoS.

Good points above. Light Tanks are death for stealthers etc. but consider where light tanks end up on inc! They run out their backfield and into the enemy backfield. That leaves the friendly backfield exposed to Assassins and Archers to kill and harass the backfield. If Heavy Tanks had MoS then stealthers would never get a chance to hit the backfield because they usually hang out in the backfield to peel. However if stealthers are harrying the backfield then a Light Tank could hang back and try to disrupt or kill them, which means one less Light Tank harassing the enemy backfield. This is where balance comes in, not to mention the constant scattering of enemy stealth at choke points due to the fear a stealther would have of being unstealthed by a light tank that is /sticking the group leader. Again, this is balance.

If the players have no means or will to balance out the problem themselves (MoS, stealthlore, etc.) then the staff will handle it themselves, and sometimes (as with the 25% thing) in a ham-handed fashion.

Again, my main is a stealther.
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:01 AM by Nepenthe
Just curious, why do people think stealthers need nerfed? They already have a hard time against most classes. Is it that they feel steathers can hunt and kill with impunity of 8 mans? Or do people feel the need to play a stealther in order to not get run over by 8mans or zergs?
Fri 26 Oct 2018 7:23 AM by Cadebrennus
Nepenthe wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:01 AM
Just curious, why do people think stealthers need nerfed? They already have a hard time against most classes. Is it that they feel steathers can hunt and kill with impunity of 8 mans? Or do people feel the need to play a stealther in order to not get run over by 8mans or zergs?

I think the main problem that people have with stealthers isn't when they jump you 1v1, it's because they 4v1 or 8v1 without you ever having a chance to see them
Fri 26 Oct 2018 8:00 AM by Druth
Nepenthe wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:01 AM
Just curious, why do people think stealthers need nerfed? They already have a hard time against most classes. Is it that they feel steathers can hunt and kill with impunity of 8 mans? Or do people feel the need to play a stealther in order to not get run over by 8mans or zergs?

Because many wants to play stealther, and there are no counters as a visible to combat them, unless the stealthers initiate combat.
If few wanted to play them, counters would not be needed.

Is one good thing ToA introduced, the ability to put down a trap and prey on stealthers, use SL and run over a bridge/area, and of course put down PN.
Because you need stealthers to be hard to find, so they can attack from stealth, but you also should fear visibles who try to find you.

If you want to combat a 8man who are just better, you can play stealther and avoid them or run 1½-2 fg's and get a good fight with them.
A solo, smallman, stealther, zerg can all decide to attack a 8man. Only a stealther can attack a stealther, and even then they have to know in which area they are.
Fri 26 Oct 2018 8:02 AM by Druth
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 7:23 AM
Nepenthe wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:01 AM
Just curious, why do people think stealthers need nerfed? They already have a hard time against most classes. Is it that they feel steathers can hunt and kill with impunity of 8 mans? Or do people feel the need to play a stealther in order to not get run over by 8mans or zergs?

I think the main problem that people have with stealthers isn't when they jump you 1v1, it's because they 4v1 or 8v1 without you ever having a chance to see them

That is mainly a problem for me when I listen to their motivation for playing stealther "solo/smallman visible gets rolled by fg's". It baffles me people can't see their hypocracy.
Fri 26 Oct 2018 10:03 AM by Kaziera
Druth wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 8:02 AM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 7:23 AM
Nepenthe wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:01 AM
Just curious, why do people think stealthers need nerfed? They already have a hard time against most classes. Is it that they feel steathers can hunt and kill with impunity of 8 mans? Or do people feel the need to play a stealther in order to not get run over by 8mans or zergs?

I think the main problem that people have with stealthers isn't when they jump you 1v1, it's because they 4v1 or 8v1 without you ever having a chance to see them

That is mainly a problem for me when I listen to their motivation for playing stealther "solo/smallman visible gets rolled by fg's". It baffles me people can't see their hypocracy.

Ppl need to listen more to ian fleming:

Live and let die.
Fri 26 Oct 2018 10:13 AM by Druth
Kaziera wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 10:03 AM
Ppl need to listen more to ian fleming:

Live and let die.

You know what the meaning of that quote means...?
And how poorly it works in a game that revolves around attacking each other?
It implies that stealthers should leave people alone, unless they wanted to fight.

It works in the context of people complaining about others using cheat codes in single player games (even though they are animals!!!).
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:09 PM by Nepenthe
Hereis a CRAZY idea.....How about 8 man or small man group let a stealther join them if they want to hunt other stealthers. They don't because stealthers are WEAK and die so fast and no one wants to group with one other than fellow stealthers. That is all there is too it really, why try and think up and waste time coding silly things like stealth tokens when all the groups have to do is allow a stealther to join them...…..

Seriously though, try and ask for a group in an 8 man or small man as an assassin and they will tell you NO and say "go roll a real toon!" Then they will complain that they cannot find stealthers. If they grouped an assassin then everyone does not have to cry nerf! Assassins can find other assassins for the group....kinda like they were originally meant to when the game was developed.
Fri 26 Oct 2018 5:22 PM by Kaziera
Druth wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 10:13 AM
Kaziera wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 10:03 AM
Ppl need to listen more to ian fleming:

Live and let die.

You know what the meaning of that quote means...?
And how poorly it works in a game that revolves around attacking each other?
It implies that stealthers should leave people alone, unless they wanted to fight.

It works in the context of people complaining about others using cheat codes in single player games (even though they are animals!!!).

I doubt ian fleming had anything to do with single player games.
Fri 26 Oct 2018 6:02 PM by Cadebrennus
Kaziera wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 5:22 PM
Druth wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 10:13 AM
Kaziera wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 10:03 AM
Ppl need to listen more to ian fleming:

Live and let die.

You know what the meaning of that quote means...?
And how poorly it works in a game that revolves around attacking each other?
It implies that stealthers should leave people alone, unless they wanted to fight.

It works in the context of people complaining about others using cheat codes in single player games (even though they are animals!!!).

I doubt ian fleming had anything to do with single player games.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldenEye_007_(1997_video_game)
Fri 26 Oct 2018 6:07 PM by Kaziera
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 6:02 PM
Kaziera wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 5:22 PM
Druth wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 10:13 AM
You know what the meaning of that quote means...?
And how poorly it works in a game that revolves around attacking each other?
It implies that stealthers should leave people alone, unless they wanted to fight.

It works in the context of people complaining about others using cheat codes in single player games (even though they are animals!!!).

I doubt ian fleming had anything to do with single player games.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldenEye_007_(1997_video_game)

You realize there was a novel and after that a movie and after that the game came out? 😂😂
Fri 26 Oct 2018 6:09 PM by Cadebrennus
Kaziera wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 6:07 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 6:02 PM
Kaziera wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 5:22 PM
I doubt ian fleming had anything to do with single player games.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldenEye_007_(1997_video_game)

You realize there was a novel and after that a movie and after that the game came out? 😂😂

I know. I just posted that because the game is apparently the gold standard among FPS games and set the stage for FPS games to follow. Also I was being facetious.
Fri 26 Oct 2018 6:14 PM by Kaziera
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 6:09 PM
Kaziera wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 6:07 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Fri 26 Oct 2018 6:02 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldenEye_007_(1997_video_game)

You realize there was a novel and after that a movie and after that the game came out? 😂😂

I know. I just posted that because the game is apparently the gold standard among FPS games and set the stage for FPS games to follow. Also I was being facetious.

Now that i think about it, it was written by john gardner. Still, congrats in discovering an alternate meaning to someone elses comment. 😉

Nevertheless, what i acualy wante to say, stop qqing so much about the game. You might miss it. Rather go out, fight, and if u die, so be it.
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