Hybrid Changes

Started 22 Oct 2018
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
Will all happen at the same time.

Paladin
Spec AF now coexists, that means paladin spec af aura overrides cleric / charge spec af for the duration of the chant, if the chant expires the cleric / charge spec af takes over again.
Spec points increase from 2.0 per level to 2.5
Damage table increases to VW damage table (19 -> 21)

Thane
Single target nuke cast time reduction with increasing level, starts at 3 seconds (spec 1) ends at 2.4 (spec 48)
Single target nuke delve increase, ends at 184 at spec 48, 146 at 38.
Ae nuke cast time reduction from 4 seconds to 3 seconds.
Mana cost of all offensive spells decreased by 1/3
Self buff offensive proc that reduces enemy energy resist, 17 spec: 6%, 23 spec: 12%, 36 spec: 18%, 47 spec: 24%, the debuff lasts 15 seconds, the self buff lasts 20 minutes.

Friar
Holy Staff (34 Staff) becomes a back positional style with a 60% snare for 15 seconds
Damage table increase to VW damage table (20 -> 21)
Self buff offensive proc that triggers a group heal at every 8 spec in rejuvenation. Delve subject to change, for now 100 delve at 48 and 75 at 40, 60 at 32, 45 at 24, 30 at 16, 15 at 8. Last 20 minutes.
Mon 22 Oct 2018 6:22 PM by Renork
Thane changes are excellent, thank you for that.

Is the team considering changing vw styles? The 3 and 4 part chains are very difficult to pull off outside of a pve environment and the returns are not worth the annoyance, which limits the utility of the class to be more of a peeler. Other classes can perform this role, so outside of being able to cast when rooted the class doesn't have a lot of flavor and can be shut down easily. The addition of castable disease, pbaoe disease, shortening chains, etc. made the class a lot better (the most recent addition of DG --> snow blade so that you don't break CC with blizzard blade was a great change on live).
Mon 22 Oct 2018 6:42 PM by klaggorn
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 5:53 PM
Will all happen at the same time.

Paladin
Spec AF now coexists, that means paladin spec af aura overrides cleric / charge spec af for the duration of the chant, if the chant expires the cleric / charge spec af takes over again.
Spec points increase from 2.0 per level to 2.5
Damage table increases to VW damage table (19 -> 21)

Thane
Single target nuke cast time reduction with increasing level, starts at 3 seconds (spec 1) ends at 2.4 (spec 48)
Single target nuke delve increase, ends at 184 at spec 48, 146 at 38.
Ae nuke cast time reduction from 4 seconds to 3 seconds.
Mana cost of all offensive spells decreased by 1/3
Self buff offensive proc that reduces enemy energy resist, 17 spec: 6%, 23 spec: 12%, 36 spec: 18%, 47 spec: 24%, the debuff lasts 15 seconds, the self buff lasts 20 minutes.

Friar
Still being discussed

How does the thane debuff proc work?
Mon 22 Oct 2018 7:06 PM by Kralin
klaggorn wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 6:42 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 5:53 PM
Will all happen at the same time.

Paladin
Spec AF now coexists, that means paladin spec af aura overrides cleric / charge spec af for the duration of the chant, if the chant expires the cleric / charge spec af takes over again.
Spec points increase from 2.0 per level to 2.5
Damage table increases to VW damage table (19 -> 21)

Thane
Single target nuke cast time reduction with increasing level, starts at 3 seconds (spec 1) ends at 2.4 (spec 48)
Single target nuke delve increase, ends at 184 at spec 48, 146 at 38.
Ae nuke cast time reduction from 4 seconds to 3 seconds.
Mana cost of all offensive spells decreased by 1/3
Self buff offensive proc that reduces enemy energy resist, 17 spec: 6%, 23 spec: 12%, 36 spec: 18%, 47 spec: 24%, the debuff lasts 15 seconds, the self buff lasts 20 minutes.

Friar
Still being discussed

How does the thane debuff proc work?

If it's an offensive proc, it must have a chance to go off when you offensively hit the enemy. If that means via spells, melee, or both, I'm not sure. Hopefully it's both! That would be cool to energy debuff while casting lightning.
Mon 22 Oct 2018 7:14 PM by Zouz
If it's melee it's pretty useless

Only good in solo where u could proc, slam, burst.
Mon 22 Oct 2018 7:22 PM by gruenesschaf
Added Friar to initial post
Mon 22 Oct 2018 7:37 PM by Renork
The thane energy debuff is probably identical to the one on live, so it procs off melee only.
Mon 22 Oct 2018 7:38 PM by Ganaka
About the Friar, Is the increased damage table the same for both staff and one hand?
Mon 22 Oct 2018 9:29 PM by Magesty
Awesome changes. Excited to see this kind of stuff.

Not so sure about giving Thanes a 2.4 sec cast time 184 dmg single target DD at 2/3 the mana cost, though. I guess we will see how that one plays out throughout i50.
Mon 22 Oct 2018 10:17 PM by Bethoc
I look forward to witnessing the radiant, holy splendor of a paladin's two-handed great sword for once, while thanes are going to be fantastic nukers and may lean definitively towards casting over melee. Those crackling arcs of lightning will finally feel as painful as they sound. I'm also pleased by the friar buffs; they needed better role refinement as peelers and off healers without the loss of relative melee parity.

Other hybrids such as champions are languishing behind with their lower weaponskill, and I would be excited about changes to smite clerics similar to thanes. Guessing these and others are being actively considered.
Mon 22 Oct 2018 10:38 PM by defiasbandit
Lets be careful here about buffing classes. Speaking of slippery slopes.
Mon 22 Oct 2018 10:46 PM by Rayvn11
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 10:38 PM
Lets be careful here about buffing classes. Speaking of slippery slopes.

This. While I am very interested to try out the Thane, let's not get too carried away or this will start turning a corner from the classic DAOC experience into something else entirely.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 12:59 AM by Ardri
Yes, be careful buffing thanes and paladins! We might actually see 3 thanes and 1 paladin now instead of none! Lol what a joke...

Now for the non sarcasm. Awesome changes devs. Keep up the good work. Hopefully champion dmg table gets bumped up a little as well.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 1:25 AM by Renork
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 10:38 PM
Lets be careful here about buffing classes. Speaking of slippery slopes.

I don't think you realize how sub par thanes (and hybrids in general) are. The class that does not have access to a high dex race, does not benefit from acui/int buffs, does not have dex as a primary/secondary/tertiary rising stat, does not have access to wp, there are no dd styles at this patch level, no toa cast speed (of course, MoA is available), etc.

Live thanes actually benefit from increased range on their nukes, so all they did here is lower the cast speed, which is not game breaking by any means. They are not going to take a runnies spot :^)

For a true "do not touch anything, classic4life" mentality, I highly suggest Uthgard. That "hardcore" mentality worked out perfect and the server is thriving with over 5k players, /sarcasm off.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:27 AM by Magesty
Thane
In looking at these Thane changes it feels a lot like the intention here is to wedge them into a set place in an 8 man as a back line "peeler" without much regard for the effect it will have on other aspects of RvR and the overall class design.

This may not have much of an impact on 8v8 balance, but I have serious misgivings about the effect a DRASTICALLY buffed single target nuke will have on solo and small man game play. Now you have a class that has fighter durability, det, NF ST, and slam along with casting DPS that will rival most proper casters and an instant interrupt on top of it. I love the class, and I want to see more of them in RvR, but this just seems a tad heavy-handed.

The other fundamental issue with a change like this is it essentially pushes the Thane from being a hybrid melee to being a hybrid caster. You now have to get 48 SC no matter what and your melee will always be a far distant second priority to your casting when it comes to dealing damage. See an enemy? You want to be casting. Slam an enemy? You want to be casting. Next to an enemy? Try to get as many nukes off as possible. Engaged in melee? Try to positional snare and kite so you can cast. The only time it is going to be worth meleeing over casting is when you are out of mana, and even then maybe you should just wait for your MCL CD. When you can make literally any changes you can imagine I question doing something that tips the scales so far in one direction. Why not implement changes that play to the classes duality instead of dumping all the power into one spot?

The energy debuff feels like a throwaway ability. If I'm playing this version of the Thane I probably don't want to be doing more than swinging once to snare or slam if I can avoid it. If it procs on my slam, great. Now I can absolutely kill anything during the stun.

Paladin

Awesome changes. These should help Paladins perform a little better in all modes of play. Hopefully we will see them solo and in small mans going forward. At the very least they will feel way more satisfying to play. It would have been nice to see the heal chant get a little bit of love, but the spec points and damage table increase are huge on their own.

Friar

These changes are good. I'm not sure they are 100% hitting the mark for what Friars actually need, but we will see. Having to compete with potion/charges on everyone will still be a bit of an issue, I think. Holy Staff definitely needed to be made in to something useful, and a back snare is definitely that (I assume there will be an accompanying GR increase?), and obviously being bumped up a table is very useful.

I think these buffs do a good job of focusing on fixing the friar in solo and small man play rather than trying to force them in to a group role. The heal proc being melee and in the rejuv line actually reduces its ability to fit on an "8man Friar" as it forces you to eschew the red resistance buffs as well as actually melee your opponents (read: not cast heal/cures) to get much use out of it.

Depending on how the heal proc shakes out I think a new spec of something like 45 enhance, 32 rejuv, 34 staff, 11 parry will be pretty fun to try out (Maybe you get the 34 HoT?). If the proc rate is fairly consistent it will definitely be a bump in the right direction for the class. Very excited about this one.

Conclusion

Overall these changes are great. I'm a little concerned about the Thane changes, but I love the class and will definitely be rolling one once I'm sick of Albion. If the Paladin and Friar improvements do as much as I think they might this basically opens up two new class choices for me as a solo/small man player.

I hope we see more slight alterations like this to other classes in the future. There are a lot of spec lines that could use some love (Smite Cleric! Nature Druid! Champion!), and any improvements made to them will only serve to increase the variety and options we will all have going forward.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:32 AM by cortexqc
Ardri wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 12:59 AM
Yes, be careful buffing thanes and paladins! We might actually see 3 thanes and 1 paladin now instead of none! Lol what a joke...

Now for the non sarcasm. Awesome changes devs. Keep up the good work. Hopefully champion dmg table gets bumped up a little as well.

i tried to group with paladin but after 30mn no group logged out and log my berserker (10 second to find a group) ^^
i tried my paladin on orange monster now really good defence "and" good damage but mind need to change now...
Tue 23 Oct 2018 6:41 AM by Hedien
Paladin :
- AF spec thing is more like a debugging than an actual buff.
- Spec point increase will lead to having both chants and 2 hander. But chants are useless :
Heal - useless
Endo - useless given current potion meta and range restriction.
AF spec - limited benefit if cleric give it out. (likely)
Add damage - only if melee group.
Resist - situational at best, useless if friar is in.
Would you take a paladin over an arms? Given no stoicism and no anytime snare. I wouldn't. And I didn't talk about the RA imbalance.

Thane :
I like the changes. Good synergy with RM supp and peeling play.

Friar :
No opinion as I don't really understand the implications of the buff line vs staff line.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:02 AM by Kaziera
Except that cleric never has the conc to buff af.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:17 AM by Hedien
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:02 AM
Except that cleric never has the conc to buff af.

Depends on how many cleric you have.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:23 AM by Kaziera
Hedien wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:17 AM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:02 AM
Except that cleric never has the conc to buff af.

Depends on how many cleric you have.

You never have more than two. Evry cleric has 20 buffs, thats 2x dex 2x con int for casters or 2x con 1x str 2x dex for tanks. Thats for 8 ppl 40 buffs minus 2x the clerics. So its 2x af if nobody charges. So it depends on how many friars you have to do some base buffs.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:26 AM by Hedien
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:23 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:17 AM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:02 AM
Except that cleric never has the conc to buff af.

Depends on how many cleric you have.

You never have more than two. Evry cleric has 20 buffs, thats 2x dex 2x con int for casters or 2x con 1x str 2x dex for tanks. Thats for 8 ppl 40 buffs minus 2x the clerics. So its 2x af if nobody charges. So it depends on how many friars you have to do some base buffs.

Ok, valid point on buffing capacity.
But you just brought the counter argument : charging af which is done by everyone if fully buffed.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:45 AM by Kaziera
Int is beeing charged. Its available from crafters. Af is a drop charge afaik. Not available without farming or plat, so not beeing used frequently.

Actually that af charge on paly is no change at all, because af on alb is very very rareley used, except in very well equiped grps.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:48 AM by Hedien
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:45 AM
Int is beeing charged. Its available from crafters. Af is a drop charge afaik. Not available without farming or plat, so not beeing used frequently.

Actually that af charge on paly is no change at all, because af on alb is very very rareley used, except in very well equiped grps.

Too many IFs.
Available from feather objects. Then every decent group will have it.
If you consider that the group is underprepared, then yes, we can argue that a comp with paly will win over a 2 champ 1 vw 2 animist 2 warden 1 bard not temped... but it is not the point, the point is that over time, everyone will be fully geared and prepared and trying to build groups with higher chances of success.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 8:17 AM by Druth
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:45 AM
Int is beeing charged. Its available from crafters. Af is a drop charge afaik. Not available without farming or plat, so not beeing used frequently.

Actually that af charge on paly is no change at all, because af on alb is very very rareley used, except in very well equiped grps.

stable hardening arcanium tincture?

Did I miss something?
Tue 23 Oct 2018 8:45 AM by Kaziera
I stand corrected.

Still i see it rareley beeing used.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 9:21 AM by Druth
Normally in Albion it's the first thing you see when Albs leave PK's, af on most melee chars and brain for casters.
Actually have no clue how much it helps, but people do it.

Paladins only worth is resist chant, everything else armsman and charges/pots will do better.

Their af buff will even remove your af charge...
If you pop endo pot and paladin has endo chant up, your pot will fail and you have 60 secs before you can redo, so better stay close to paladin.

It is the single worst class in the game outside PvE.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 9:41 AM by juhalanz
@Paladin

Love the idea on working on It, like all Hybrids.

BUT

Pally main issue is the overall usefulness of chants.

Chants are not so gamechanging + they cost end.

with those changes we will get a decent hybrid spec 2hcomposite + slam spec.

It would be better for 1vs1/solo/small man for sure but not so effective for group, still a gimped Armsman with some low/useless utilities.

Chants need some tweak.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 10:29 AM by Kaziera
I will check all that today evening.

At the moment it sounds like they just gave paly access to slam, 2h and chants at the same time. Plus a bit dmg.

Sounds fine to me, but it doest fix the problems of endo pots conflicting with chant. Imo endo chant should do the same as af.

If endo buff is there, and chant starts, endo buff should stay there but become inactive and kick in again after endo chant stops.

I need to check if af chant cancels af charges.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 10:45 AM by Koljar
Is there any plan on testing this during i50? That might also help the issue with having so many stealthers as people might try out one or more of these hybrids.

I like the idea of altering the Paladin endu chant the same way you plan on doing for the AF chant. Is there any chance the endu range get's Extended to (what is it for bards?) 1.5k locs?
Tue 23 Oct 2018 11:30 AM by Kaziera
Endo range is 2k
Tue 23 Oct 2018 6:48 PM by Koljar
I always liked my pala back on live (loong ago) for pve purposes. With 2.5 skillpoints he'd become the defensive monster i always wanted.
Not sure but something like 29 slash, 50 shield, 48 chants and 41 or 42 parry. Even with the new damage table he wouldn't be a fast killer but you could outlast monsters even better. Now immagine that with moblock and moparry (well -he wouldn't be really wanted in groups anyway so no idea where to get those RPs)… Who Needs 6 sec PBT anyway

The friar changes are also looking good. With these changes I'd be torn between just 3 classes, great!
Tue 23 Oct 2018 7:01 PM by Kaziera
pala is hitting for 350ish 2h now. 46 chants 42 shields 34 1h 50 2h. pala is on steroids now.

I mean, pala is sick here now, but thats not what i wanted actually. id rather see some chants buffs. but thats my bias.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 8:44 PM by Beefzerkee
I've said before wardens and paladins need that minor 15% celerity on their damage add like live had. It would help them actually be useful and not just gimp versions of other classes, especially since anything those classes can do, certain others can do better.

Sad to see wardens untouched though.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 8:48 PM by Koljar
I like the friar with these changes. If they keep those for live I'm gonna go for one i guess.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 9:38 PM by Cartesii
I guess its a nice thing.

Give warden shield spec, friar a bit more spec points too and it would be rly intresting.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 10:16 PM by Cadebrennus
Boosting Wardens abilities as a peeler is hardly opening the floodgates
Wed 24 Oct 2018 12:52 AM by Turtle006
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 10:12 PM
Open the floodgates.

Yes, please do! Look at every underperforming class and spec line and see if it can be made viable. As long as it can be done to bring them (approximately) into balance with the rest I am all for it.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 5:42 PM by Equade
Had to make an account for this, as I have been looking forward to rolling a thane just based on the fact that I can be a frostalf thane once again. Then you added NF ST and determination and I already held my minute of silence for all future victims.

Change my mind:

The thane changes will get rolled back/altered.

Everyone and their grandmother's will be rolling thanes (why roll a warrior now?) which is going to suck for me as I will not be succeeding by playing a marginalised class to perfection (chill, guys). And if they don't at first, they will after seeing those of us who caught the gist of just how unbalanced this change is.

Anyhow, I love the staff's approach to the server. I think that a few attempted balance changes here and there are fun - And in a way true to the original game experience, never quite knowing which class would be the flavour/favourite of the month. Maybe the 8v8 meta even changes here and there, opening up for some ingenious constellations not previously feasible.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 5:55 PM by Renork
Equade wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 5:42 PM
Had to make an account for this, as I have been looking forward to rolling a thane just based on the fact that I can be a frostalf thane once again. Then you added NF ST and determination and I already held my minute of silence for all future victims.

Change my mind:

The thane changes will get rolled back/altered.

Everyone and their grandmother's will be rolling thanes (why roll a warrior now?) which is going to suck for me as I will not be succeeding by playing a marginalised class to perfection (chill, guys). And if they don't at first, they will after seeing those of us who caught the gist of just how unbalanced this change is.

Anyhow, I love the staff's approach to the server. I think that a few attempted balance changes here and there are fun - And in a way true to the original game experience, never quite knowing which class would be the flavour/favourite of the month. Maybe the 8v8 meta even changes here and there, opening up for some ingenious constellations not previously feasible.

Thank god this server has top tier players such as the above poster. I can't wait to see all those new thanes dominate the entire meta with those fast casting nukes. Inc dark sm/thane OP groups.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 7:01 PM by Kralin
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 5:55 PM
Equade wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 5:42 PM
Had to make an account for this, as I have been looking forward to rolling a thane just based on the fact that I can be a frostalf thane once again. Then you added NF ST and determination and I already held my minute of silence for all future victims.

Change my mind:

The thane changes will get rolled back/altered.

Everyone and their grandmother's will be rolling thanes (why roll a warrior now?) which is going to suck for me as I will not be succeeding by playing a marginalised class to perfection (chill, guys). And if they don't at first, they will after seeing those of us who caught the gist of just how unbalanced this change is.

Anyhow, I love the staff's approach to the server. I think that a few attempted balance changes here and there are fun - And in a way true to the original game experience, never quite knowing which class would be the flavour/favourite of the month. Maybe the 8v8 meta even changes here and there, opening up for some ingenious constellations not previously feasible.

Thank god this server has top tier players such as the above poster. I can't wait to see all those new thanes dominate the entire meta with those fast casting nukes. Inc dark sm/thane OP groups.

Oh come on now Renork, you're coming across as a jerk. Equade said he made an account due to this announcement and that's great. We want all the people we can get on this server.

Equade is likely correct that if these changes to Thane stay in then the Thane class is a lot more appealing than the Warrior if you want to play a shield tank in a Midgard group. Zerg, smallman or 8v8, I'd rather play a Thane than a Warrior. Yes, Warrior is tankier and possibly does more dps overall, but the Thane is much more versatile and appealing.

In order of melee popularity in Midgard, I forsee Savage > Berserker > Thane > Warrior. If the Thane changes get nerfed or reverted, then the Warrior will probably be more popular than Thane again.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 7:28 PM by Renork
Kralin wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 7:01 PM
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 5:55 PM
Equade wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 5:42 PM
Had to make an account for this, as I have been looking forward to rolling a thane just based on the fact that I can be a frostalf thane once again. Then you added NF ST and determination and I already held my minute of silence for all future victims.

Change my mind:

The thane changes will get rolled back/altered.

Everyone and their grandmother's will be rolling thanes (why roll a warrior now?) which is going to suck for me as I will not be succeeding by playing a marginalised class to perfection (chill, guys). And if they don't at first, they will after seeing those of us who caught the gist of just how unbalanced this change is.

Anyhow, I love the staff's approach to the server. I think that a few attempted balance changes here and there are fun - And in a way true to the original game experience, never quite knowing which class would be the flavour/favourite of the month. Maybe the 8v8 meta even changes here and there, opening up for some ingenious constellations not previously feasible.

Thank god this server has top tier players such as the above poster. I can't wait to see all those new thanes dominate the entire meta with those fast casting nukes. Inc dark sm/thane OP groups.

Oh come on now Renork, you're coming across as a jerk. Equade said he made an account due to this announcement and that's great. We want all the people we can get on this server.

Equade is likely correct that if these changes to Thane stay in then the Thane class is a lot more appealing than the Warrior if you want to play a shield tank in a Midgard group. Zerg, smallman or 8v8, I'd rather play a Thane than a Warrior. Yes, Warrior is tankier and possibly does more dps overall, but the Thane is much more versatile and appealing.

In order of melee popularity in Midgard, I forsee Savage > Berserker > Thane > Warrior. If the Thane changes get nerfed or reverted, then the Warrior will probably be more popular than Thane again.

Actually, a jerk would be laughing at his comment "And if they don't at first, they will after seeing those of us who caught the gist of just how unbalanced this change is". You clearly didn't read.

The class is there to peel (oh wow, how unique) or interrupt (your range nukes are still 1.5k range). You can now interrupt better if you invest in aug dex/MoA, so now everything is unbalanced? lol?

If he is speaking from a solo perspective, good luck not getting adds, especially when stealthers are the most played classes on this server (big shocker there).

Sure, dd/slam/snare/dd in "theory" should kill anyone that doesn't purge your slam, but good luck getting those clean fights. It is no different than fighting a reaver that slam/lollevi when your purge is down or fighting an infil that knows how to poison swap and lands that juicy dragon fang on you.

I'm intrigued, since you took it upon yourself to defend his post, what exactly makes this change so overwhelmingly unbalanced?
Thu 25 Oct 2018 7:43 PM by Equade
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 5:55 PM
Equade wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 5:42 PM
...

Thank god this server has top tier players such as the above poster. I can't wait to see all those new thanes dominate the entire meta with those fast casting nukes. Inc dark sm/thane OP groups.

I even hinted at the irony and called for a chill interpretation. Oh well.

Anyhow, I thought I'd previously read that Phoenix would be implementing NF ST in the sense that it would remove stun immunity (I could've sworn I read this explicitly from an official Phoenix source, but I may have been wishfully dreaming). I just logged in for the first time and tested that it does not. That reduces the OP'ness significantly, but I still believe it will be quite a popular class.

I should add that I am talking from the perspective of a solo thane.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 7:55 PM by Renork
Equade wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 7:43 PM
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 5:55 PM
Equade wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 5:42 PM
...

Thank god this server has top tier players such as the above poster. I can't wait to see all those new thanes dominate the entire meta with those fast casting nukes. Inc dark sm/thane OP groups.

I even hinted at the irony and called for a chill interpretation. Oh well.

Anyhow, I thought I'd previously read that Phoenix would be implementing NF ST in the sense that it would remove stun immunity (I could've sworn I read this explicitly from an official Phoenix source, but I may have been wishfully dreaming). I just logged in for the first time and tested that it does not. That reduces the OP'ness significantly, but I still believe it will be quite a popular class.

I should add that I am talking from the perspective of a solo thane.

In the grand scheme of things balance doesn't revolve around solo fights though. I see your point from a solo standpoint, but there are plenty of other classes that excel at soloing and don't have to kite to get the kill. I'm glad that groups will consider running a thane for peels/interrupts (saw a couple of groups looking for a thane yesterday). It also makes them more fun to play small man/duo.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 8:00 PM by florin
When friar 2.5x spec?
Thu 25 Oct 2018 8:03 PM by Kralin
It wasn't my intention to defend Equade's comment about the Thane change being unbalanced. I was just agreeing with the point that Thanes will be more popular than Warriors. That's all. Since it's still beta, the proposed changes may be reverted and if so, then the Thane probably will fall short again compared with Warrior popularity.

I would welcome Thane popularity since it's a more interesting class than plain ol' Warriors. (and they may break more CC unintentionally which is only a good thing for Albs and Hibs.)
Thu 25 Oct 2018 8:03 PM by Equade
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 7:28 PM
Actually, a jerk would be laughing at his comment "And if they don't at first, they will after seeing those of us who caught the gist of just how unbalanced this change is". You clearly didn't read.

The class is there to peel (oh wow, how unique) or interrupt (your range nukes are still 1.5k range). You can now interrupt better if you invest in aug dex/MoA, so now everything is unbalanced? lol?

If he is speaking from a solo perspective, good luck not getting adds, especially when stealthers are the most played classes on this server (big shocker there).

Sure, dd/slam/snare/dd in "theory" should kill anyone that doesn't purge your slam, but good luck getting those clean fights. It is no different than fighting a reaver that slam/lollevi when your purge is down or fighting an infil that knows how to poison swap and lands that juicy dragon fang on you.

I'm intrigued, since you took it upon yourself to defend his post, what exactly makes this change so overwhelmingly unbalanced?

I believe, as with all other servers I've played on, that soloing is viable in one shape or another. I certainly had a good time on Genesis and Uthgard1. It remains to be seen if it will be so on Phoenix sooner, later or at certain times of the day.

I went into my argument with the understanding that ST removed stun immunity, making it significantly different from your comparisons above in the fact, that you can only have 1 purge up. And if you purge a reaver/infil you stand a fighting chance. If you purge a thane and he/she proceeds to strip your immunity.

Anyhow, if we are talking group play, you now have a quite competent nuker in chain, with guard, backsnare and stun. It is quite an attractive package and I think it will tip the scales in #thanes rolled more dramatically than intended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc0OfBfJ0sM
Thu 25 Oct 2018 8:14 PM by Renork
Equade wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 8:03 PM
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 7:28 PM
Actually, a jerk would be laughing at his comment "And if they don't at first, they will after seeing those of us who caught the gist of just how unbalanced this change is". You clearly didn't read.

The class is there to peel (oh wow, how unique) or interrupt (your range nukes are still 1.5k range). You can now interrupt better if you invest in aug dex/MoA, so now everything is unbalanced? lol?

If he is speaking from a solo perspective, good luck not getting adds, especially when stealthers are the most played classes on this server (big shocker there).

Sure, dd/slam/snare/dd in "theory" should kill anyone that doesn't purge your slam, but good luck getting those clean fights. It is no different than fighting a reaver that slam/lollevi when your purge is down or fighting an infil that knows how to poison swap and lands that juicy dragon fang on you.

I'm intrigued, since you took it upon yourself to defend his post, what exactly makes this change so overwhelmingly unbalanced?

I believe, as with all other servers I've played on, that soloing is viable in one shape or another. I certainly had a good time on Genesis and Uthgard1. It remains to be seen if it will be so on Phoenix sooner, later or at certain times of the day.

I went into my argument with the understanding that ST removed stun immunity, making it significantly different from your comparisons above in the fact, that you can only have 1 purge up. And if you purge a reaver/infil you stand a fighting chance. If you purge a thane and he/she proceeds to strip your immunity.

Anyhow, if we are talking group play, you now have a quite competent nuker in chain, with guard, backsnare and stun. It is quite an attractive package and I think it will tip the scales in #thanes rolled more dramatically than intended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc0OfBfJ0sM

In the first 30 seconds of the video you can see the thane debuffing energy :^) which is not available here. Also, nukes on live are much longer than 1.5k and you can further get an increased 10% range if you template around that. Don't forget resist pierce is also not available here. I played around with the nukes, and going high aug acui/wp the highest nukes w/o crit were around 225-250 which is not bad but it did require a heavy, heavy investment in those ra's. There's no dd styles or doom hammer here either and like you said ST does not reset stun immunity. The thane role didn't change at all after the change, you are still going to peel and interrupt but are not stuck with 4.0 and 3.0 spells on a class that does not have dex as a primary rising stat.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 9:02 PM by SuperNerd739
Good stuff. Would be nice to see Champs and Wardens get some love as well.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 10:56 PM by Varano
I love the changes but agree Thane might be a little too much.
Shoulda changed either damage or cast speed for single target nuke, not both.
Fri 26 Oct 2018 7:18 AM by Equade
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 8:14 PM
Equade wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 8:03 PM
...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc0OfBfJ0sM

In the first 30 seconds of the video you can see the thane debuffing energy :^) which is not available here. Also, nukes on live are much longer than 1.5k and you can further get an increased 10% range if you template around that. Don't forget resist pierce is also not available here. I played around with the nukes, and going high aug acui/wp the highest nukes w/o crit were around 225-250 which is not bad but it did require a heavy, heavy investment in those ra's. There's no dd styles or doom hammer here either and like you said ST does not reset stun immunity. The thane role didn't change at all after the change, you are still going to peel and interrupt but are not stuck with 4.0 and 3.0 spells on a class that does not have dex as a primary rising stat.

I'm actually leaning towards this potentially becoming quite an interesting thing as the meta could (safe to say will?) be impacted. I'd love to run in a thane heavy setup :p But what happens next and where the snowball rolls ito. other changes than these is anyones guess. Referring back to my first post, I for one am excited to see some continuous balancing that will disrupt the 16-year old meta
Fri 26 Oct 2018 12:51 PM by Weophyte
So the damage coefficient is going from 19 -> 21
My question is, what is Stoicism tanks coefficient at? (arms/merc/bm/hero etc.)
Fri 26 Oct 2018 1:29 PM by Cartesii
Weophyte wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 12:51 PM
So the damage coefficient is going from 19 -> 21
My question is, what is Stoicism tanks coefficient at? (arms/merc/bm/hero etc.)

http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_Table

Arms and Hero + all Light Tanks (Merc.Bers and Bladem) on 22
Warrior is on 23.
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:26 PM by Rexoo
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 5:53 PM
Will all happen at the same time.

Paladin
Spec AF now coexists, that means paladin spec af aura overrides cleric / charge spec af for the duration of the chant, if the chant expires the cleric / charge spec af takes over again. (Is that all, now thats a joke :/ )
Spec points increase from 2.0 per level to 2.5 ( Okay )
Damage table increases to VW damage table (19 -> 21) from what damge table before (? -> ?)
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:44 PM by isocleas2
Rexoo wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:26 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 5:53 PM
Will all happen at the same time.

Paladin
Spec AF now coexists, that means paladin spec af aura overrides cleric / charge spec af for the duration of the chant, if the chant expires the cleric / charge spec af takes over again. (Is that all, now thats a joke :/ )
Spec points increase from 2.0 per level to 2.5 ( Okay )
Damage table increases to VW damage table (19 -> 21) from what damge table before (? -> ?)

Damage table 19? that's what he means by 19 -> 21

More damage, stacking af chant, 2000 endu range, more spec points....and yet some people still complain.
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:44 PM by Beefzerkee
Rexoo wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:26 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 5:53 PM
Will all happen at the same time.

Paladin
Spec AF now coexists, that means paladin spec af aura overrides cleric / charge spec af for the duration of the chant, if the chant expires the cleric / charge spec af takes over again. (Is that all, now thats a joke :/ )
Spec points increase from 2.0 per level to 2.5 ( Okay )
Damage table increases to VW damage table (19 -> 21) from what damge table before (? -> ?)

From 19 to 21. A class is only on one damage table.
Fri 26 Oct 2018 4:38 PM by Waygone
Beefzerkee wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:44 PM
Rexoo wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Oct 2018 3:26 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 5:53 PM
Will all happen at the same time.

Paladin
Spec AF now coexists, that means paladin spec af aura overrides cleric / charge spec af for the duration of the chant, if the chant expires the cleric / charge spec af takes over again. (Is that all, now thats a joke :/ )
Spec points increase from 2.0 per level to 2.5 ( Okay )
Damage table increases to VW damage table (19 -> 21) from what damge table before (? -> ?)

From 19 to 21. A class is only on one damage table.
It means FROM 19 (previously) UP TO 21 (currently)
English is a funky language, but hopefully that makes it more understandable
Sun 28 Oct 2018 2:50 PM by Zansobar
Anyone know if the Friar group heal proc chance is per Friar or groupwise? Meaning, if you start stacking more and more Friars in your group will the number of procs go up (assuming each Friar is actively meleeing)? If so, depending on the strength of the heals and the proc rate that could make it overpowered in certain situations.
Sun 28 Oct 2018 6:18 PM by gallaraider
Thane damage with SM debuff is still really bad even on people without resists. Its like 330 lol
Mon 29 Oct 2018 8:04 AM by Hedien
gallaraider wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Oct 2018 6:18 PM
Thane damage with SM debuff is still really bad even on people without resists. Its like 330 lol

And it is right. Like a VW in caster grp, you peel and do situational damage to help taking stuff down.
Shouldn't be expected to nuke as hard as casters. have a shield, mail and hp pool.
Mon 29 Oct 2018 7:00 PM by Cider
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Oct 2018 2:50 PM
Anyone know if the Friar group heal proc chance is per Friar or groupwise? Meaning, if you start stacking more and more Friars in your group will the number of procs go up (assuming each Friar is actively meleeing)? If so, depending on the strength of the heals and the proc rate that could make it overpowered in certain situations.

It not even close to op. With it being in the rej line, you have to give up some staff spec on a class that already suffers from woefully low WS (due to primary stat dex never increasing) and have a harder time to actually hit your target (making the proc less effective), or give up on some enh, making for less util or worse the last d/q buff(similar affect on WS as lowering staff spec ).

Having played a friar before and after the changes, I would say this heal proc has had the least impact (tested with 8-32 rej spec) because it does not proc enough or heal enough when it does to make a difference. I would say you would need a full grp of friars before its even noticeable and even then it would be far from OP.

Having said all that, the increased damage table was a welcome and needed change that has made the biggest impact. Other than still having relatively low WS, I think the friar is where it should be now.
Mon 29 Oct 2018 7:29 PM by florin
Cider wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 7:00 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Oct 2018 2:50 PM
Anyone know if the Friar group heal proc chance is per Friar or groupwise? Meaning, if you start stacking more and more Friars in your group will the number of procs go up (assuming each Friar is actively meleeing)? If so, depending on the strength of the heals and the proc rate that could make it overpowered in certain situations.

It not even close to op. With it being in the rej line, you have to give up some staff spec on a class that already suffers from woefully low WS (due to primary stat dex never increasing) and have a harder time to actually hit your target (making the proc less effective), or give up on some enh, making for less util or worse the last d/q buff(similar affect on WS as lowering staff spec ).

Having played a friar before and after the changes, I would say this heal proc has had the least impact (tested with 8-32 rej spec) because it does not proc enough or heal enough when it does to make a difference. I would say you would need a full grp of friars before its even noticeable and even then it would be far from OP.

Having said all that, the increased damage table was a welcome and needed change that has made the biggest impact. Other than still having relatively low WS, I think the friar is where it should be now.

I think friars are missing a better stun...2 sec stun off a 2nd style evade or 8 sec of 3rd style side chain. Good luck against slam bots and assassins.
Mon 29 Oct 2018 8:12 PM by gallaraider
You are better off playing a warrior and hitting things with Ragnarok for 600 instead of trying to nuke as a Thane.
Mon 29 Oct 2018 8:42 PM by Cider
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 7:29 PM
I think friars are missing a better stun...2 sec stun off a 2nd style evade or 8 sec of 3rd style side chain. Good luck against slam bots and assassins.

Against a slam tank (other slammers can still be good fight..apart from thanes now which IMO was tweak a little to much), sure it aint very pretty most the time unless purge is up, but a friar is not supposed to do well against that kind of opponent, however against assassins...its always a good fight now even with stun landing with purge not up it can be very close. If anything, I think the friar could do with a few extra spec points (Like x1.8) so 50 staff is a real option which would help the WS issue and make the heal proc more viable to spec for, however I think that maybe asking too much. BTW the stun is actually 3secs
Mon 29 Oct 2018 11:07 PM by Bethoc
I did some testing of the paladin to determine how effective it might be against an armswoman's damage. It's very close, with a slight edge to 2H styles due to back positional + follow-up growth rate. Identical starting stats, buff potions, weapon spec, damage RAs. Weaponskill is still heavily Arms favored, so it should land noticeably more hits and hit harder overall, but my takeaway is that paladins specialized offensively are now a serious damage threat that can't be ignored.
Tue 30 Oct 2018 12:32 AM by Zansobar
Bethoc wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 11:07 PM
I did some testing of the paladin to determine how effective it might be against an armswoman's damage. It's very close, with a slight edge to 2H styles due to back positional + follow-up growth rate. Identical starting stats, buff potions, weapon spec, damage RAs. Weaponskill is still heavily Arms favored, so it should land noticeably more hits and hit harder overall, but my takeaway is that paladins specialized offensively are now a serious damage threat that can't be ignored.

I guess the persistent problem is, however, would any group take a Paladin over a Merc or Armsman?
Tue 30 Oct 2018 12:34 AM by Zansobar
Cider wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 8:42 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 7:29 PM
I think friars are missing a better stun...2 sec stun off a 2nd style evade or 8 sec of 3rd style side chain. Good luck against slam bots and assassins.

Against a slam tank (other slammers can still be good fight..apart from thanes now which IMO was tweak a little to much), sure it aint very pretty most the time unless purge is up, but a friar is not supposed to do well against that kind of opponent, however against assassins...its always a good fight now even with stun landing with purge not up it can be very close. If anything, I think the friar could do with a few extra spec points (Like x1.8) so 50 staff is a real option which would help the WS issue and make the heal proc more viable to spec for, however I think that maybe asking too much. BTW the stun is actually 3secs

A friar is one of those classes that screams for more spec points, how many more is the question.
Wed 31 Oct 2018 6:54 PM by Dariussdars
Hedien wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 8:04 AM
gallaraider wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Oct 2018 6:18 PM
Thane damage with SM debuff is still really bad even on people without resists. Its like 330 lol

And it is right. Like a VW in caster grp, you peel and do situational damage to help taking stuff down.
Shouldn't be expected to nuke as hard as casters. have a shield, mail and hp pool.

VW gets benefit from acuity buff. VW also gets their lifetap for free, and doesn't have to spend a single point.
Thu 1 Nov 2018 9:56 AM by Druth
Bethoc wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 11:07 PM
I did some testing of the paladin to determine how effective it might be against an armswoman's damage. It's very close, with a slight edge to 2H styles due to back positional + follow-up growth rate. Identical starting stats, buff potions, weapon spec, damage RAs. Weaponskill is still heavily Arms favored, so it should land noticeably more hits and hit harder overall, but my takeaway is that paladins specialized offensively are now a serious damage threat that can't be ignored.

Very intriguing. I did a quick test against a guildy scout, and the damage was okay.
But the miss rate is quite high imo, might need to test more, but the low ws is really hurting.

And, while I know this is a lot to ask for, endo chant still makes reg pot fail, and endo chant does not work if you have reg pot effect.

You have Aug Str 5, right?
Thu 1 Nov 2018 3:01 PM by Joc
I do know that a skald/thane is a pretty fun duo now. Lots of cc/lockdown/interrupts plus speed is pretty fun. They will still get rolled by anything with numbers, but it's rather fun overall.
Thu 1 Nov 2018 4:22 PM by Renork
Unfortunate that they won't be touching valewalkers. You have an evade chain (4 chain) on an evade IV class, you have a parry chain (3 chain), both are never going to be used in group play. Which leaves you with SB and DG, a 5s and 8s positional stuns. Your hardest hitting style is blizzard blade, but the spell itself is level 29 and there is no MoF here to lower the resist rate, plus it is yet another 3 part positional chain. In order to be effective you will absolutely have to get det 9 since purge is on a 30 minute timer.. So you are reduced to peeling and interrupting, but there are other MUCH better choices for this. The class on live had major rework done on their styles and the arboreal line since no one really played them. The class doesn't have a snare style here either.

SLAM > positional stuns for peeling.

You're better off using the lowest possible dot to interrupt and you're likely never going to be using your snare since you're giving snare immunity.

But...they have lifedrain on a class that doesn't really focus on getting Mastery of the Art :^) and can be easily shut down by ns.

Guess I'll be sticking to the cab debuff train on alb, 600 lt hits are sexy~
Thu 1 Nov 2018 5:07 PM by Druth
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 4:22 PM
Unfortunate that they won't be touching valewalkers. You have an evade chain (4 chain) on an evade IV class, you have a parry chain (3 chain), both are never going to be used in group play. Which leaves you with SB and DG, a 5s and 8s positional stuns. Your hardest hitting style is blizzard blade, but the spell itself is level 29 and there is no MoF here to lower the resist rate, plus it is yet another 3 part positional chain. In order to be effective you will absolutely have to get det 9 since purge is on a 30 minute timer.. So you are reduced to peeling and interrupting, but there are other MUCH better choices for this. The class on live had major rework done on their styles and the arboreal line since no one really played them. The class doesn't have a snare style here either.

SLAM > positional stuns for peeling.

You're better off using the lowest possible dot to interrupt and you're likely never going to be using your snare since you're giving snare immunity.

But...they have lifedrain on a class that doesn't really focus on getting Mastery of the Art :^) and can be easily shut down by ns.

Guess I'll be sticking to the cab debuff train on alb, 600 lt hits are sexy~

VW's are one of the few hybrids that don't need help, they are solid dps, not affected by root like other melee. Their biggest issue was BM's being so insanely strong that no one wanted anything but them in groups.


And NS locks down any caster, VW can still do stuff after NS.
Thu 1 Nov 2018 6:01 PM by Renork
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 5:07 PM
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 4:22 PM
Unfortunate that they won't be touching valewalkers. You have an evade chain (4 chain) on an evade IV class, you have a parry chain (3 chain), both are never going to be used in group play. Which leaves you with SB and DG, a 5s and 8s positional stuns. Your hardest hitting style is blizzard blade, but the spell itself is level 29 and there is no MoF here to lower the resist rate, plus it is yet another 3 part positional chain. In order to be effective you will absolutely have to get det 9 since purge is on a 30 minute timer.. So you are reduced to peeling and interrupting, but there are other MUCH better choices for this. The class on live had major rework done on their styles and the arboreal line since no one really played them. The class doesn't have a snare style here either.

SLAM > positional stuns for peeling.

You're better off using the lowest possible dot to interrupt and you're likely never going to be using your snare since you're giving snare immunity.

But...they have lifedrain on a class that doesn't really focus on getting Mastery of the Art :^) and can be easily shut down by ns.

Guess I'll be sticking to the cab debuff train on alb, 600 lt hits are sexy~

VW's are one of the few hybrids that don't need help, they are solid dps, not affected by root like other melee. Their biggest issue was BM's being so insanely strong that no one wanted anything but them in groups.


And NS locks down any caster, VW can still do stuff after NS.

I have only played the class for close to 16 years and would love to hear your feedback on your definition of "solid dps". Thanes are also not affected by "root" and can interrupt much better post patch, still have access to slam and their dps is decent even with 34/39 weapon. What stuff can a valewalker do after being locked down by a ns? Surely you are not suggesting they go to the front, right? and assuming that is what you're actually suggesting (lol) what exactly would you do? I have only seen you run around solo on a sorc and on a reaver, and if you by chance died to a valewalker 1v1 on a reaver that is major user error and nothing to do with the class itself. Although reavers are just as bad in a group setting and have no synergy with anything, but that is a different topic (levi damage is laughable against any group running an aug healer/warden, but this is obviously not from a solo perspective of course).

You should roll a hib and ask the two (one?) valewalkers that actively play/group (Grimm) about longevity and see what he has to say about going to the front, especially against any semi-decent alb group running a cab (almost all of them). Moreover, valewalkers have always been the least played class in all private servers, including Uth 1.0, Uth 2.0, Genesis, etc. Since I'm anticipating your response is going to be "they just take skillz to play", I'll go ahead and tell you now that there is nothing difficult about using two styles and interrupting with one spell. Even playing solo, learning how to run through and land your stuns is not difficult at all.
Thu 1 Nov 2018 8:11 PM by Druth
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 6:01 PM
I have only played the class for close to 16 years and would love to hear your feedback on your definition of "solid dps". Thanes are also not affected by "root" and can interrupt much better post patch, still have access to slam and their dps is decent even with 34/39 weapon. What stuff can a valewalker do after being locked down by a ns? Surely you are not suggesting they go to the front, right? and assuming that is what you're actually suggesting (lol) what exactly would you do? I have only seen you run around solo on a sorc and on a reaver, and if you by chance died to a valewalker 1v1 on a reaver that is major user error and nothing to do with the class itself. Although reavers are just as bad in a group setting and have no synergy with anything, but that is a different topic (levi damage is laughable against any group running an aug healer/warden, but this is obviously not from a solo perspective of course).

You should roll a hib and ask the two (one?) valewalkers that actively play/group (Grimm) about longevity and see what he has to say about going to the front, especially against any semi-decent alb group running a cab (almost all of them). Moreover, valewalkers have always been the least played class in all private servers, including Uth 1.0, Uth 2.0, Genesis, etc. Since I'm anticipating your response is going to be "they just take skillz to play", I'll go ahead and tell you now that there is nothing difficult about using two styles and interrupting with one spell. Even playing solo, learning how to run through and land your stuns is not difficult at all.

Thanes needed a boost, is it to much? Maybe, but they needed a boost. My point was simply that VW's are fine, not great but fine.

I played VW to here, and it was fine. Was it tier 1? Nope, BM's were, but are solid dps. But no fights did I fail to land a stun, the server settings makes it easy to land positionals. I don't like Hibernia, but I loved the VW.
You compare their dps to a caba, which is tier 1, but not all classes can belong to tier 1, sorry some classes has to be tier 2, but VW's are not tier 3 in any way.

Of course a reaver will never loose to a vw, lol. It's a shield class fighting a 2-hand class, and I know my class and how to play it.
Reavers are also tier 2, and I'm fine with that.


I don't play reaver for the awesome performance, but because it's fun to run a class using 11 styles. And I like landing positionals/reactionaries.
Thu 1 Nov 2018 8:53 PM by Cider
Unfortunately I am going to have to take back what I said about friars being more or less where they should be.

Since the reduced melee damage + raising miss rate change, they are performing basically as they were, if not slightly worse than, before the hybrid love patch, which IMO is below par. With assassins being able to poison every swing, they now have the upper hand in battles (which used to be a highlight of a friar, not a sure win but a good fight which could go either way, now it almost certain death, regularly seeing them walk away with 30%+ health, this was never the case before the melee change). As damage poison was not affected by the melee change, having to hit more times just means more chances/times to apply more poisons and therefore more types to give them even more of an advantage e.g lowering WS on their opponent further, which is already low on friars. With the already woefully low friar WS, the raised miss rate has really hurt the friars ability to hit enough to be effective (making the heal proc buff even more useless) and the reduced damage is preventing them killing quick enough to overcome other classes magical abilities (which has even had a negative impact on battles with things like skalds).

Of course this is all coming from a solo perspective, however, the hybrid love patch hardly gave them anything to make them more group friendly (except the back snare style) and I believe solo/smallman play to be a friars strong point (especially being like a wolf in sheeps clothing, making stealthers think twice). Unfortunately as it stands now, I just dont believe they are performing well enough in this area.

If anything is changed regarding the friar, I certainly would not want them overtuned. My suggestion would be raise the spec points to 1.8 (from 1.5), make the 50 staff style a 4 sec stun of evade OR parry (making it worth speccing for, not just to raise WS) and completely remove the heal proc buff that was added.

Of course this is all just IMO.
Thu 1 Nov 2018 9:06 PM by Renork
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 8:11 PM
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 6:01 PM
I have only played the class for close to 16 years and would love to hear your feedback on your definition of "solid dps". Thanes are also not affected by "root" and can interrupt much better post patch, still have access to slam and their dps is decent even with 34/39 weapon. What stuff can a valewalker do after being locked down by a ns? Surely you are not suggesting they go to the front, right? and assuming that is what you're actually suggesting (lol) what exactly would you do? I have only seen you run around solo on a sorc and on a reaver, and if you by chance died to a valewalker 1v1 on a reaver that is major user error and nothing to do with the class itself. Although reavers are just as bad in a group setting and have no synergy with anything, but that is a different topic (levi damage is laughable against any group running an aug healer/warden, but this is obviously not from a solo perspective of course).

You should roll a hib and ask the two (one?) valewalkers that actively play/group (Grimm) about longevity and see what he has to say about going to the front, especially against any semi-decent alb group running a cab (almost all of them). Moreover, valewalkers have always been the least played class in all private servers, including Uth 1.0, Uth 2.0, Genesis, etc. Since I'm anticipating your response is going to be "they just take skillz to play", I'll go ahead and tell you now that there is nothing difficult about using two styles and interrupting with one spell. Even playing solo, learning how to run through and land your stuns is not difficult at all.

Thanes needed a boost, is it to much? Maybe, but they needed a boost. My point was simply that VW's are fine, not great but fine.

I played VW to here, and it was fine. Was it tier 1? Nope, BM's were, but are solid dps. But no fights did I fail to land a stun, the server settings makes it easy to land positionals. I don't like Hibernia, but I loved the VW.
You compare their dps to a caba, which is tier 1, but not all classes can belong to tier 1, sorry some classes has to be tier 2, but VW's are not tier 3 in any way.

Of course a reaver will never loose to a vw, lol. It's a shield class fighting a 2-hand class, and I know my class and how to play it.
Reavers are also tier 2, and I'm fine with that.


I don't play reaver for the awesome performance, but because it's fun to run a class using 11 styles. And I like landing positionals/reactionaries.

You can invite a group of 8 people with random classes and those 8 will always steam roll pugs and be "fine", you can even invite a couple of smite clerics and get the job done. Once you face competent compositions your whole dynamic falls apart. Valewalkers do not have a solid spot in a group and if you want a peeler there are other alternative options. Even on live the class has always been the least played class (even after so many changes). The class received shorter chains, pbaoe disease, aoe disease, frontal rool, rear snare, etc. Your response shows me you have no experience with the class and as I said playing the game "solo" doesn't = actual class performance. Even solo, a sb/infil can obliterate you unless your lovely 30m CD purge is up. Ultimately they didn't tweak any of their styles, and failed to add any utility to the class. The class will continue to be tier 3, regardless of your erroneous and inexperienced opinion.
Thu 1 Nov 2018 9:18 PM by daocgod
What needs to be done with Paladin and chants in general is removing the endurance cost. The power cost on the paladin endurance should also be removed.
Thu 1 Nov 2018 10:13 PM by Bethoc
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 9:56 AM
Bethoc wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 11:07 PM
I did some testing of the paladin to determine how effective it might be against an armswoman's damage. It's very close, with a slight edge to 2H styles due to back positional + follow-up growth rate. Identical starting stats, buff potions, weapon spec, damage RAs. Weaponskill is still heavily Arms favored, so it should land noticeably more hits and hit harder overall, but my takeaway is that paladins specialized offensively are now a serious damage threat that can't be ignored.

Very intriguing. I did a quick test against a guildy scout, and the damage was okay.
But the miss rate is quite high imo, might need to test more, but the low ws is really hurting.

And, while I know this is a lot to ask for, endo chant still makes reg pot fail, and endo chant does not work if you have reg pot effect.

You have Aug Str 5, right?

Aug Str 5 on both characters, yes. I also checked the weaponskill on my VW and it's actually quite a bit higher than the paladin, despite 'equalizing' the WS growth to 21 per level.

Without Aug Str 5, the VW has 1524 WS. After taking Aug Str 5 (+20 str), 1594 WS with 311 total strength. That's compared to 1448 WS for the paladin, which has 291 strength after Aug Str 5. Something else is factoring into the weaponskill difference (146) besides strength that I can't pinpoint. At most, it would account for about 70 of that 146 difference.

So while the paladin's WS buff does help, it's still significantly lower than the VW. I'm not surprised at a fairly high miss rate, and I would like to see another slight buff. If not WS, then more utility from the chants. Allowing all of them, endurance included, to function in the same way as AF would be nice. Taking over while the chant is active, but not erasing the pot buff.
Fri 2 Nov 2018 12:46 AM by Abattoir
Friar: Is the hot intended to be a not in combat spell? (Interruptable)
Fri 2 Nov 2018 2:35 AM by Zansobar
Bethoc wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 10:13 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 9:56 AM
Bethoc wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 11:07 PM
I did some testing of the paladin to determine how effective it might be against an armswoman's damage. It's very close, with a slight edge to 2H styles due to back positional + follow-up growth rate. Identical starting stats, buff potions, weapon spec, damage RAs. Weaponskill is still heavily Arms favored, so it should land noticeably more hits and hit harder overall, but my takeaway is that paladins specialized offensively are now a serious damage threat that can't be ignored.

Very intriguing. I did a quick test against a guildy scout, and the damage was okay.
But the miss rate is quite high imo, might need to test more, but the low ws is really hurting.

And, while I know this is a lot to ask for, endo chant still makes reg pot fail, and endo chant does not work if you have reg pot effect.

You have Aug Str 5, right?

Aug Str 5 on both characters, yes. I also checked the weaponskill on my VW and it's actually quite a bit higher than the paladin, despite 'equalizing' the WS growth to 21 per level.

Without Aug Str 5, the VW has 1524 WS. After taking Aug Str 5 (+20 str), 1594 WS with 311 total strength. That's compared to 1448 WS for the paladin, which has 291 strength after Aug Str 5. Something else is factoring into the weaponskill difference (146) besides strength that I can't pinpoint. At most, it would account for about 70 of that 146 difference.

So while the paladin's WS buff does help, it's still significantly lower than the VW. I'm not surprised at a fairly high miss rate, and I would like to see another slight buff. If not WS, then more utility from the chants. Allowing all of them, endurance included, to function in the same way as AF would be nice. Taking over while the chant is active, but not erasing the pot buff.

I do not believe the base class weapon table is the same thing as a weaponskill table. I believe there are separate in that the multiplier to damage is separate between the two. Weaponskill also has the added ability to pierce defenses.
Fri 2 Nov 2018 7:55 AM by Druth
daocgod wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 9:18 PM
What needs to be done with Paladin and chants in general is removing the endurance cost. The power cost on the paladin endurance should also be removed.

Aside from buffing WS slightly, I agree this is the last thing that you could do to boost paladins.
When I roll over all chants I'm at 50-60% endo suddenly, and that is not recovered with endo chant.

But I think 0% endo and 0% power (for endo chant) is to much really... I would rather see it lowered some, and see how that works.
I don't want paladins to suddenly become a super powerhouse, and they are currently very close to being a good class.
Fri 2 Nov 2018 8:03 AM by Druth
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 9:06 PM
You can invite a group of 8 people with random classes and those 8 will always steam roll pugs and be "fine", you can even invite a couple of smite clerics and get the job done. Once you face competent compositions your whole dynamic falls apart. Valewalkers do not have a solid spot in a group and if you want a peeler there are other alternative options. Even on live the class has always been the least played class (even after so many changes). The class received shorter chains, pbaoe disease, aoe disease, frontal rool, rear snare, etc. Your response shows me you have no experience with the class and as I said playing the game "solo" doesn't = actual class performance. Even solo, a sb/infil can obliterate you unless your lovely 30m CD purge is up. Ultimately they didn't tweak any of their styles, and failed to add any utility to the class. The class will continue to be tier 3, regardless of your erroneous and inexperienced opinion.

Amazing, I've met a minstrel who had 16 years of experience who did not understand how my VW managed to do sidestun/backstun, and even appealed me for cheating.
Maybe you simply are not very good at your class? There are VW's out there that do very well, but no they are not top tier, but are neither bottom tier.

Of course you will die to a sb/infil that lands CD without purge, thats a death scenario for anyone but heavy tanks. Something tells me you expect your favorite class to be top tier, and apparently win fights that other classes can't win.
If that is the case, then yes VW needs buffing, but you should also ask a competent VW to teach you how to land positionals because otherwise you'll never be good at a class like that.


I just startet a paladin without shield spec. Stun lands every fight, and they are even 2nd in chain. But positionals are not for everyone, which is why they want the 9sec slam, and don't want it nerfed.
Fri 2 Nov 2018 8:50 AM by Hedien
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 8:03 AM
Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 9:06 PM
You can invite a group of 8 people with random classes and those 8 will always steam roll pugs and be "fine", you can even invite a couple of smite clerics and get the job done. Once you face competent compositions your whole dynamic falls apart. Valewalkers do not have a solid spot in a group and if you want a peeler there are other alternative options. Even on live the class has always been the least played class (even after so many changes). The class received shorter chains, pbaoe disease, aoe disease, frontal rool, rear snare, etc. Your response shows me you have no experience with the class and as I said playing the game "solo" doesn't = actual class performance. Even solo, a sb/infil can obliterate you unless your lovely 30m CD purge is up. Ultimately they didn't tweak any of their styles, and failed to add any utility to the class. The class will continue to be tier 3, regardless of your erroneous and inexperienced opinion.

Amazing, I've met a minstrel who had 16 years of experience who did not understand how my VW managed to do sidestun/backstun, and even appealed me for cheating.
Maybe you simply are not very good at your class? There are VW's out there that do very well, but no they are not top tier, but are neither bottom tier.

Of course you will die to a sb/infil that lands CD without purge, thats a death scenario for anyone but heavy tanks. Something tells me you expect your favorite class to be top tier, and apparently win fights that other classes can't win.
If that is the case, then yes VW needs buffing, but you should also ask a competent VW to teach you how to land positionals because otherwise you'll never be good at a class like that.


I just startet a paladin without shield spec. Stun lands every fight, and they are even 2nd in chain. But positionals are not for everyone, which is why they want the 9sec slam, and don't want it nerfed.

Just for the record, I think that good player > good class. But for the sake of argument, let's consider players to be of same skill but different classes.

VW is sub-par because :
- Being well performing implies landing a 3rd style which is often evaded, blocked or rupted via cc.
- If you are near cced target you lose 100% of your burst because your burst proc is a rather large radius pbaoe. Against a buffed target, you need around 6-7 backstyle to bring the person down, to me it does not qualify as burst.
- Once you don't kill a target within the 1st cycle, (all non-cloth basically) if you are not within assist) you have to restart cycle with a stun style and an 4.0 add dmg style that you already have or is weaker than the charge you might be using.
- For duel purposes, landing a side stun (or back stun for that matter) implies you leveraging the games latency limitations. It is applied by most, can be avoided partially but no one can honestly claim it is fair play just because "other are doing it too".
- For group encounters, unless you get lucky avoid melees or get an evade out, you will lose the 1st stun contest.
- No RA making it really useful to increase dps or be of some value to the group. (prevent flight for one is not accessible)
- Stoicism > Being able to cast lifedrain @ 220 dmg.

So yes, you can deal insane amount of damages to unprepared, poorly playing/coordinated players and flood the logs with your name. But for the rest, VW is lacking.

Grim
Fri 2 Nov 2018 9:13 AM by Druth
Hedien wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 8:50 AM
Just for the record, I think that good player > good class. But for the sake of argument, let's consider players to be of same skill but different classes.

VW is sub-par because :
- Being well performing implies landing a 3rd style which is often evaded, blocked or rupted via cc.
- If you are near cced target you lose 100% of your burst because your burst proc is a rather large radius pbaoe. Against a buffed target, you need around 6-7 backstyle to bring the person down, to me it does not qualify as burst.
- Once you don't kill a target within the 1st cycle, (all non-cloth basically) if you are not within assist) you have to restart cycle with a stun style and an 4.0 add dmg style that you already have or is weaker than the charge you might be using.
- For duel purposes, landing a side stun (or back stun for that matter) implies you leveraging the games latency limitations. It is applied by most, can be avoided partially but no one can honestly claim it is fair play just because "other are doing it too".
- For group encounters, unless you get lucky avoid melees or get an evade out, you will lose the 1st stun contest.
- No RA making it really useful to increase dps or be of some value to the group. (prevent flight for one is not accessible)
- Stoicism > Being able to cast lifedrain @ 220 dmg.

So yes, you can deal insane amount of damages to unprepared, poorly playing/coordinated players and flood the logs with your name. But for the rest, VW is lacking.

Grim

Like I said, VW are not top tier, but that does not warrant a buff. Paladins/friar/thanes needed a buff, with paladin/friar the most (especially with the new endo change) because they have skills alb groups need, but wont use with gimp class.
Champ, warden, vw, reaver are the leftovers, and none of them are good, but they work in groups, just that some classes are better than them and so min/maxers pick them instead. I would never ever pick a reaver over an armsman, despite me playing a reaver, their performance is solely tied to a 2nd chain snare and 60 degree positional.


VW will never ever be un par with other classes in melee, because they are also a caster. They are in the class of "jack of all trades, master of none", and that will always mean you are lower tier in a game that focuses so heavily on dps/CC/heal. The melee is to low in a tank group, and the nukes to weak in a caster group.
If VW were given melee strength like light tanks, or even close, they'd be insanely OP due to them having 1500 nukes.

Again, I am in no way saying VW are great/amazing, but that they are fine. That you struggle getting groups is due to BM and 9 sec slam.
Fri 2 Nov 2018 5:56 PM by florin
Cider wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 8:42 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Oct 2018 7:29 PM
I think friars are missing a better stun...2 sec stun off a 2nd style evade or 8 sec of 3rd style side chain. Good luck against slam bots and assassins.

Against a slam tank (other slammers can still be good fight..apart from thanes now which IMO was tweak a little to much), sure it aint very pretty most the time unless purge is up, but a friar is not supposed to do well against that kind of opponent, however against assassins...its always a good fight now even with stun landing with purge not up it can be very close. If anything, I think the friar could do with a few extra spec points (Like x1.8) so 50 staff is a real option which would help the WS issue and make the heal proc more viable to spec for, however I think that maybe asking too much. BTW the stun is actually 3secs

Ya - I guess just getting slammed first thing every fight gets old
Fri 2 Nov 2018 6:22 PM by poisonclover
friars need celerity. imo
Fri 2 Nov 2018 6:38 PM by Abattoir
poisonclover wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 6:22 PM
friars need celerity. imo

Omg yes, I said this years and years ago.

But what did they do... Paladins.. (Gah)

Infact, they can still give to both.

Just give pallys the smaller radius chant, and Friars the casted version

Can also make the insta haste pbaoe, and make it co-exist with lower value hastes too while you're at it.
Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:59 AM by Isavyr
It was nonsensical to give it to paladin, especially as a chant, and would be similarly nonsensical to give it to a Friar. Celerity in classic was only given to one class, one which risks much in order to provide celerity--the Aug Healer has to be in a forward position for the tanks to receive the celerity, which means its within striking distance of the enemy, casters and melee.

A friar, which has a lot more defense and is a melee character, is naturally going to be around the tanks. Little risk to a friar to provide celerity to the tanks. If Albion were to be given celerity--which I'm not sure I want--it would make more sense to give it to a character like Theurgist, which excels at range, yet now must get in close to be effective--proper risk & reward.

The friar is still underwhelming, but it doesn't need additional tools to make it viable. Instead, it needs the tools to be better and more relevant. For example, the heal proc is pitifully underwhelming, even at 48 rejuv, and lacks control. It would instead make more sense for the heal proc to behave in one of the following ways:
  • Each proc heal is instead a heal-over-time, and heals 3x (over 6s, or 9s) instead of current 1-tick
  • Each proc instead triggers the most powerful HoT the friar has specialized in
  • Proc does not heal but instead gives friar a buff that allows next casted heal to be instant

All of the above provide more control or coverage to the heal proc, enabling the Friar to be a more relevant while engaged in melee.

Another idea would be to allow the friar's d/q buff to be given to realm-mates. This would raise its utility in groups with little effort. Would be interesting to see how this one plays out.
Sat 3 Nov 2018 9:54 AM by Abattoir
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:59 AM
The friar is still underwhelming, but it doesn't need additional tools to make it viable.

Ummmm.....

W T F !
Sat 3 Nov 2018 2:00 PM by jhaerik
Abattoir wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Nov 2018 9:54 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:59 AM
The friar is still underwhelming, but it doesn't need additional tools to make it viable.

Ummmm.....

W T F !

It doesn't need more tools... it needs the tools it has to actually be worth a damn.
Sat 3 Nov 2018 2:52 PM by Cider
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:59 AM
It was nonsensical to give it to paladin, especially as a chant, and would be similarly nonsensical to give it to a Friar. Celerity in classic was only given to one class, one which risks much in order to provide celerity--the Aug Healer has to be in a forward position for the tanks to receive the celerity, which means its within striking distance of the enemy, casters and melee.

A friar, which has a lot more defense and is a melee character, is naturally going to be around the tanks. Little risk to a friar to provide celerity to the tanks. If Albion were to be given celerity--which I'm not sure I want--it would make more sense to give it to a character like Theurgist, which excels at range, yet now must get in close to be effective--proper risk & reward.

The friar is still underwhelming, but it doesn't need additional tools to make it viable. Instead, it needs the tools to be better and more relevant. For example, the heal proc is pitifully underwhelming, even at 48 rejuv, and lacks control. It would instead make more sense for the heal proc to behave in one of the following ways:
  • Each proc heal is instead a heal-over-time, and heals 3x (over 6s, or 9s) instead of current 1-tick
  • Each proc instead triggers the most powerful HoT the friar has specialized in
  • Proc does not heal but instead gives friar a buff that allows next casted heal to be instant

All of the above provide more control or coverage to the heal proc, enabling the Friar to be a more relevant while engaged in melee.

Another idea would be to allow the friar's d/q buff to be given to realm-mates. This would raise its utility in groups with little effort. Would be interesting to see how this one plays out.

I really am not a fan of putting better heal procs on a friar as it has too much potential to make them OP. I actually wish they would remove the current one as its nothing but a gimmick atm. I also think celerity is a bad idea as they already have self haste of a high value.

The problem ATM is that they lack WS foremost (for the record, its not even possible to break 1500 ws will 78 starting dex + 155 max buffs and dex 9), lack points to spec 50 staff without losing out on other essential utility (selfbuff absorb+d/q) and lastly lack a useful stun. This is why I suggested 1.8 specpoints, which could help WS along with opening up more spec options, possibly in the rej line too. Also changing the 50 staff style to a reactionary stun (4-6 secs) off parry OR evade would help give more incentive to spec that high (ATM the 50 staff style is next to useless as it offers nothing over/less than other styles already available).

My only other thought is that if we cant get WS raised in the above way, then would lower the opponents WS be a better option, maybe through the way of a PBAOE disease like a shammy, instead of this heal proc nonsense?
Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:06 PM by gruenesschaf
All hybrids that had a damage table bump effectively had a WS raise. WS is just a display property that is not used anywhere but in the char screen, the WS in the char screen has not been raised as it uses a seemingly random number (that corresponds to damage table tough) as the base WS, this base ws wasn't modified as it doesn't affect anything.

For all intents and purposes the actually used "WS" raised according to the dmg table bump.
Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:43 PM by Cider
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:06 PM
All hybrids that had a damage table bump effectively had a WS raise. WS is just a display property that is not used anywhere but in the char screen, the WS in the char screen has not been raised as it uses a seemingly random number (that corresponds to damage table tough) as the base WS, this base ws wasn't modified as it doesn't affect anything.

For all intents and purposes the actually used "WS" raised according to the dmg table bump.

Point taken and there is no doubt the damage table increase was a great change. However this does not change the fact friars are still slightly under performing after the reduction to melee damage and raised miss rate compared to before the change (but after the damage table increase). With friars only form of offence being melee, this change has affected them the most in a negative way compared to the other hybrids that were upgraded because little else was changed for them (pallies increased points negating this change somewhat). Although I can understand the heal proc addition could be argued, at least on paper, to be a good addition in helping a friars performance, in practice, it has had the least impact, if at all. I stand by the point that it is more gimmicky than functional and really hope you guys look into possible other avenues to help, if you do at all, like some of the suggestions made here, other than just raising the effectiveness of this proc. 1.8 points being the one I think would help in all areas as it opens up the possibility of higher rej spec friars along with addressing the other problems raised.
Sun 4 Nov 2018 12:39 AM by Isavyr
Cider wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:43 PM
Although I can understand the heal proc addition could be argued, at least on paper, to be a good addition in helping a friars performance, in practice, it has had the least impact, if at all. I stand by the point that it is more gimmicky than functional and really hope you guys look into possible other avenues to help, if you do at all, like some of the suggestions made here, other than just raising the effectiveness of this proc. 1.8 points being the one I think would help in all areas as it opens up the possibility of higher rej spec friars along with addressing the other problems raised.

You admit that heal proc is ineffective, but don't want to see it made effective? I don't understand your logic.

What role do you think the friar should be?
Sun 4 Nov 2018 12:42 AM by Cider
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 12:39 AM
Cider wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:43 PM
Although I can understand the heal proc addition could be argued, at least on paper, to be a good addition in helping a friars performance, in practice, it has had the least impact, if at all. I stand by the point that it is more gimmicky than functional and really hope you guys look into possible other avenues to help, if you do at all, like some of the suggestions made here, other than just raising the effectiveness of this proc. 1.8 points being the one I think would help in all areas as it opens up the possibility of higher rej spec friars along with addressing the other problems raised.

You admit that heal proc is ineffective, but don't want to see it made effective? I don't understand your logic.

What role do you think the friar should be?

I have said many times why, but to repeat myself, its because it has too much potential to be OP (especially in solo play) which we should try to avoid. It also very niche in how much it can help add to a grps effectiveness, also forcing more of a push play style, rather than it being the players choice to do so.

As for a friars role, IMO, its a base buffer with cold/heat/matter resists (its main grp inv reason), backup healer (hard to spec high enough to do well at due spec point limits), backup peeler (improved thanks to the added backsnare) and backup melee damage, performing better in smallman and solo action than in 8man.
Sun 4 Nov 2018 12:44 AM by Isavyr
Cider wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 12:42 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 12:39 AM
You admit that heal proc is ineffective, but don't want to see it made effective? I don't understand your logic.

I have said many times why, but to repeat myself, its because it has too much potential to be OP which we should try to avoid.

This isn't an argument. Nothing would be done, if developers were to consider everything could potentially be imbalanced and thus not act. The rejuv isn't inherently overpowered, so just because it has potential to be so, isn't an argument that it shouldn't be boosted.
Sun 4 Nov 2018 1:15 AM by Cider
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 12:44 AM
Cider wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 12:42 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 12:39 AM
You admit that heal proc is ineffective, but don't want to see it made effective? I don't understand your logic.

I have said many times why, but to repeat myself, its because it has too much potential to be OP which we should try to avoid.

This isn't an argument. Nothing would be done, if developers were to consider everything could potentially be imbalanced and thus not act. The rejuv isn't inherently overpowered, so just because it has potential to be so, isn't an argument that it shouldn't be boosted.

Of course its an argument, it just you refuse to see the issue. A heal proc has a very fine line between being ineffective and being OP, even more so than most other abilities. Too little and its hardly worth speccing, too much and nothing can compete, at least solo melee (as seen on live when first introduced). Someone already tried to argue that even the current proc could potentially be op (which of course it isnt). I of course know the rej line isnt OP, but I still stand by a healproc not being the answer, favoring more points instead to allow higher rej spec to be a possibility and being more effective at the backup heal role, or better melee damage. Basically allowing it to be more of a player choice.
Sun 4 Nov 2018 1:37 AM by Isavyr
Upon further thought, I think I agree that the friar heal proc isn't the answer, but not that I don't think an appropriate value could be reached. It has more to do with the type of healing it does, and the enemy gameplay it penalizes.

(edit: If solo friars were the issue with heal-proc, the heal could be made group-only.)

You have two modes of damage--slow, spread-out damage, and high-focus damage. The heal proc, and the friar HoT--are both totally ineffective against any focused damage that requires on-demands healing. Instead, it will trickle-heal the group, which reduces the effectiveness of slow, sustained damage. I don't know why this damage method should be penalized.

The heal proc could be balanced to be somewhere between the two, which would help mitigate focused damage--and that would be nice--but it would largely mitigate split-target enemy damage, which doesn't seem desirable.

I think these two ideas are still worth considering:
    Friar D/Q becomes realm-buff, instead of self-buff
  • Friar heal proc is instead a temporary buff that allows next heal to be instant


I'd love to see other ideas though.

edit: The reason I don't like "more spec points" is that it sort of invalidates the reason for specialization. If you fill out most your abilities, why have specializations? That being said, this is already a prevalent thing in this game, so maybe not a big deal..
Sun 4 Nov 2018 2:26 AM by Cider
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 1:37 AM
Upon further thought, I think I agree that the friar heal proc isn't the answer, but not that I don't think an appropriate value could be reached. It has more to do with the type of healing it does, and the enemy gameplay it penalizes.

(edit: If solo friars were the issue with heal-proc, the heal could be made group-only.)

You have two modes of damage--slow, spread-out damage, and high-focus damage. The heal proc, and the friar HoT--are both totally ineffective against any focused damage that requires on-demands healing. Instead, it will trickle-heal the group, which reduces the effectiveness of slow, sustained damage. I don't know why this damage method should be penalized.

The heal proc could be balanced to be somewhere between the two, which would help mitigate focused damage--and that would be nice--but it would largely mitigate split-target enemy damage, which doesn't seem desirable.

I think these two ideas are still worth considering:
    Friar D/Q becomes realm-buff, instead of self-buff
  • Friar heal proc is instead a temporary buff that allows next heal to be instant


I'd love to see other ideas though.

edit: The reason I don't like "more spec points" is that it sort of invalidates the reason for specialization. If you fill out most your abilities, why have specializations? That being said, this is already a prevalent thing in this game, so maybe not a big deal..

The reason I keep pushing for more points is because of the lack of the friar being actually able to specialise enough ATM. You cant go full staff and have essential buffs needed to make it worth it (can only get 50 staff 43 enh, meaning you miss the last d/q+ absorb of additional 5%, making the spec basically the same damage while giving up higher rej+parry and not being able to take as much damage, a lose lose really). The same with high rej, you give up so much but still cant heal well enough to make it worth it. A friar is a jack of all trades but having to basically be specialised in enh to 45+ as a bare min limits them even being that. They already are specialised in a way, just it more out of necessity than choice. More point IMO rectifies this quite large flaw in design.
Sun 4 Nov 2018 2:35 AM by Isavyr
I think the end-result of more spec points would still be balanced, so I agree in that sense, but that goes for a number of classes (imagine Wizard with 3x spec points for example--still mostly balanced imo).
Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:31 AM by Cider
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 2:35 AM
I think the end-result of more spec points would still be balanced, so I agree in that sense, but that goes for a number of classes (imagine Wizard with 3x spec points for example--still mostly balanced imo).

Sorry but thats not a real argument against as, although I agree some other classes could do with a boost possibly in the way of spec points (and no, a wiz with 3x spec would be pretty far from balanced), we were discussing the friars issues. If other classes need a boost, that should be raised also, but not as a reason/argument not to boost the friar slightly in this way.
Mon 5 Nov 2018 12:41 AM by Sepplord
A wizard with 3x specpoints would be an OP beast...and that example isn't even one of the worst.

Healer/Druids/Clerics/Bards/Sorcs etc would EXPLODE if they could spec every line to max
Mon 5 Nov 2018 7:10 AM by Isavyr
Sepp,
Definitely most casters with 3x spec points would be overpowered. My original point was that some classes don't have much, or any, specialization dilemmas--you can ignore my example if you disagree, certainly most of the Midgard Vikings are like this.

But I still think my example works. Aside from Wizard 3-bolts--the only real addition to a fire wizard would be a pbaoe and aoe root. That isn't overpowered. But if you disagree, so be it. The point is that some other classes don't have this dilemma and are still balanced. So while I generally think the friar should have tough choices regarding specialization, it wouldn't be totally unlike DAoC to have them to near-max their specs and still be OK.
Mon 5 Nov 2018 7:55 PM by Sepplord
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Nov 2018 7:10 AM
Sepp,
Definitely most casters with 3x spec points would be overpowered. My original point was that some classes don't have much, or any, specialization dilemmas--you can ignore my example if you disagree, certainly most of the Midgard Vikings are like this.

But I still think my example works. Aside from Wizard 3-bolts--the only real addition to a fire wizard would be a pbaoe and aoe root. That isn't overpowered. But if you disagree, so be it. The point is that some other classes don't have this dilemma and are still balanced. So while I generally think the friar should have tough choices regarding specialization, it wouldn't be totally unlike DAoC to have them to near-max their specs and still be OK.

guess i misunderstood you a bit before, or mistook the quote out of context...
I see what you are trying to say with that comment and agree
Tue 6 Nov 2018 12:41 AM by Cider
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Nov 2018 7:10 AM
So while I generally think the friar should have tough choices regarding specialization

Its not really a choice though, as I explained before, thats the problem. 50 staff just does not make any sense at all with just 1.5 spec points due to the inherent flaw in the friars design of their most vital stat (dex) NEVER raising, meaning a min of 45 enh is an absolute necessity or you magnify this issue further as well as lose the last absorb buff (5%) which is anther class defining important ability. Unfortunately thats not all they would give up, cure poison/disease are unlikely to be possible and say goodbye to speccing any parry. So they suffer from starting with less WS due to lower dex and cannot spec full staff to try and make up the lost ground, and if they do even try, they lose basically everything, while gaining nothing but a style that is worse than other reactionaries (off parry only, which you will be low specced in with less/same damage of others styles).

Take a look for yourself, can you see a viable 50 staff spec?
Tue 6 Nov 2018 6:50 AM by Schamalow
Friar:
Can we have a spell that decreases the strength and increases the dexterity to compensate for the strength's points that the friar gains with his level up?
For example at lvl 50: -15 str / +15 dex
Tue 6 Nov 2018 6:55 AM by Bethoc
I would like to chime in and support a moderate skill point increase for friars, as well as provide an idea of a better level 50 style. The current one, Excommunicate, is a parry reactionary with somewhat high growth rate and no utility. Could it instead be a follow-up off Holy Staff 34 back snare style that proc self heals with every strike? VW and Reaver hybrid classes have great procs, and friar's general heal proc is considered underwhelming. This would add on top of that and fit well into their conceptual role.

It would make them quite robust and difficult to force off a target, and because it's off a back chain, it doesn't really make them OP in straight up 1v1 without maneuvering well or first landing their side stun. Also, because it's a self heal, it does not threaten imbalance via group impact. It's selfish but useful, as would fit with someone raising staff all the way to 50. It does alleviate pressure off the group's healer and allows them to overextend a little better. The target can cut off their healing by facing them or successfully kiting.

As an aside, procs are really fun in general. I would support their inclusion on other melee classes, and to beef up pet classes that may be undertuned.
Tue 6 Nov 2018 7:39 AM by Abattoir
Bethoc wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Nov 2018 6:55 AM
I would like to chime in and support a moderate skill point increase for friars, as well as provide an idea of a better level 50 style. The current one, Excommunicate, is a parry reactionary with somewhat high growth rate and no utility. Could it instead be a follow-up off Holy Staff 34 back snare style that proc self heals with every strike? VW and Reaver hybrid classes have great procs, and friar's general heal proc is considered underwhelming. This would add on top of that and fit well into their conceptual role.

It would make them quite robust and difficult to force off a target, and because it's off a back chain, it doesn't really make them OP in straight up 1v1 without maneuvering well or first landing their side stun. Also, because it's a self heal, it does not threaten imbalance via group impact. It's selfish but useful, as would fit with someone raising staff all the way to 50. It does alleviate pressure off the group's healer and allows them to overextend a little better. The target can cut off their healing by facing them or successfully kiting.

As an aside, procs are really fun in general. I would support their inclusion on other melee classes, and to beef up pet classes that may be undertuned.

I'm all for adding some utility to Friar styles, usually this would be in the forum of "group" utility. I would not favor a "self" heal style.
Tue 6 Nov 2018 10:37 AM by Tydowen
About the 2 classes (Paladin/Monk) that I tried in 8 setup.
I talk about 8vs8 perspective, I am not whining or asking for up, just my personal reviews :

1) Paladin : He still not get his slot in 8 setup. Main problem for me right now, is that you can't twist without be ooe. Paladin can now go in hybrid spe, but 2h cost a lot of end. Then, you need to do choice, you run 1 chant/use 2h or you don't use 2h and twist (like before).
People will go for LW2 on casters, and LW3 on some others (minstrel etc), in order to perma sprint with blue put without paladin.
If you play in front line with a casters setup then a Armsman will do better, more damage + stoicism + more hp + better snare(from polearm).
If you play in back line you will be still beaten by the Armsman, for same reasons than previsouly.
The strenght that a Paladin has over an Armsman is his chants. These, are not usable right now, unless you want to be ooe and unable to peel.
Maybe if your team is tanks oriented and need so much red end then... but which cases on alb atm ?

2) Friar : I didn't try for long but I would say, the fact that he needs to go for at least 48 Enhancement Spec to get red heat/cold resist. Then you need choose between having decent staff spe or heal spe. If you go for staff, then you will not be so good peeler, you cant guard, your stun is on 3rd on a chain, WS bit low etc.
If you go with heal, you not gonna be as good as cleric, and you will have 3 people healing. this is not working against casters setup(+your deter 5 bit useless in back line).
Last choice right now for monk to have a slot, is to go in a specific 8 setup, oriented tank/push, then you can have your slot. You play as rupt/snare in front with others tanks then you cure/heal if need. But same as Paladin, who play tank/push setup on alb nowdays ?

Once you have your cleric x2, mind sorc, minstrel, 4/8, the next 4 are quiet precious slots.
Also I am not saying that friar or paladin are currently useless, but to me, for these 4 last slots, there are better choices for a versatile setup.
Tue 6 Nov 2018 10:42 AM by Kaziera
I have been advocating chant changes for months now. But i guess changing damage table and spec Points is just easier than reworking a spell line.
Tue 6 Nov 2018 11:32 AM by Koljar
Enhance cleric + heal friar worked on live. But I'm not sure which changes were required to make this combo viable. ToA, champ levels, friar reworks, ... at some point it started to work.

Making pala chants not cost endo might be enough but that would require some testing and a change to those skills. But according to the staff they're done with changes to classes iirc.
Tue 6 Nov 2018 12:00 PM by Druth
It took a long time after ToA for albion to run cleric/friar only healing.
Friars getting greater heals changed that dynamic.

What ToA did was add more survivability to the game, ToA also added more spike dps but the survivability outweigthed the extra damage.
ToA's problem was how it was implemented, and the wiiiiiiide gap it created between those who had and those who did not have, and destroyed any realm pride by introducing 1 drop mobs on 24 hour respawn timers.
At the end of the day it helped remove a lot of the balance issues in the game, but at the cost of making the realms less diverse (ML/Arts that were not realm unique).
Tue 6 Nov 2018 3:11 PM by Isavyr
Cider wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Nov 2018 12:41 AM
Take a look for yourself, can you see a viable 50 staff spec?

Anytime 50-spec 9-second stun. I'd pick 50 staff for that. Would you? I'm not suggesting it would be balanced, but that I can imagine a 50 staff spec that would be worth choosing.
Tue 6 Nov 2018 5:08 PM by florin
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Nov 2018 3:11 PM
Cider wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Nov 2018 12:41 AM
Take a look for yourself, can you see a viable 50 staff spec?

Anytime 50-spec 9-second stun. I'd pick 50 staff for that. Would you? I'm not suggesting it would be balanced, but that I can imagine a 50 staff spec that would be worth choosing.

my biggest complaint is no good stun - i mean its a cudgel for bashing people, why does a piercer stun but a blunt doesn't? so ya id go 50 to get an anytime 9 sec stun. Thats a stealther killer too.
Tue 6 Nov 2018 9:52 PM by Splamo
Isavyr wrote:
Cider wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Nov 2018 12:41 AM
Take a look for yourself, can you see a viable 50 staff spec?

Anytime 50-spec 9-second stun. I'd pick 50 staff for that. Would you? I'm not suggesting it would be balanced, but that I can imagine a 50 staff spec that would be worth choosing.

Instead of a stun could be an anytime disarm of 5+ seconds (with some immunity timer attached of course). Would allow for a different type of peel and would make it viable for solo as well. Or just make it a heal and spirit dd like live.

Not sure how accurate this character planner is (http://www.excidio.net/charplaner/), but some of the tools Friar has according to this that could be options:

    Pulsing cure disease/poison
    Short term group evade buff
    Focus Shell (roots Friar and reduces damage/heals target)

Any of these could give Friar their own identity and not just a copy abilities of other classes as well as making them more viable for group/smallman/solo.
Tue 6 Nov 2018 10:12 PM by Renork
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 9:13 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 8:50 AM
Just for the record, I think that good player > good class. But for the sake of argument, let's consider players to be of same skill but different classes.

VW is sub-par because :
- Being well performing implies landing a 3rd style which is often evaded, blocked or rupted via cc.
- If you are near cced target you lose 100% of your burst because your burst proc is a rather large radius pbaoe. Against a buffed target, you need around 6-7 backstyle to bring the person down, to me it does not qualify as burst.
- Once you don't kill a target within the 1st cycle, (all non-cloth basically) if you are not within assist) you have to restart cycle with a stun style and an 4.0 add dmg style that you already have or is weaker than the charge you might be using.
- For duel purposes, landing a side stun (or back stun for that matter) implies you leveraging the games latency limitations. It is applied by most, can be avoided partially but no one can honestly claim it is fair play just because "other are doing it too".
- For group encounters, unless you get lucky avoid melees or get an evade out, you will lose the 1st stun contest.
- No RA making it really useful to increase dps or be of some value to the group. (prevent flight for one is not accessible)
- Stoicism > Being able to cast lifedrain @ 220 dmg.

So yes, you can deal insane amount of damages to unprepared, poorly playing/coordinated players and flood the logs with your name. But for the rest, VW is lacking.

Grim

Like I said, VW are not top tier, but that does not warrant a buff. Paladins/friar/thanes needed a buff, with paladin/friar the most (especially with the new endo change) because they have skills alb groups need, but wont use with gimp class.
Champ, warden, vw, reaver are the leftovers, and none of them are good, but they work in groups, just that some classes are better than them and so min/maxers pick them instead. I would never ever pick a reaver over an armsman, despite me playing a reaver, their performance is solely tied to a 2nd chain snare and 60 degree positional.


VW will never ever be un par with other classes in melee, because they are also a caster. They are in the class of "jack of all trades, master of none", and that will always mean you are lower tier in a game that focuses so heavily on dps/CC/heal. The melee is to low in a tank group, and the nukes to weak in a caster group.
If VW were given melee strength like light tanks, or even close, they'd be insanely OP due to them having 1500 nukes.

Again, I am in no way saying VW are great/amazing, but that they are fine. That you struggle getting groups is due to BM and 9 sec slam.

They struggle to get groups because they offer zero utility, slam > positional stuns, snare styles > no snare styles, stoicism > everything arboreal offers outside of the absorb buff. You just had one of the very few active valewalker players give you some excellent points.

Arboreal line gives you a baseline LT (lol), a snare (hi immunity), a insta-dot (please don't use your highest one to "interrupt", an absorb buff, an ablative buff proc (lol) and a disease proc.

Scythe gives you a FOUR, cuatro (that means 4) EVADE chain, how many times do you land these again?. A THREE part PARRY chain (tres = 3), with a mediocre dd at the end. A 3 part chain that procs a lv29 pbaoe DD at the end (i.e. you better not break a mezz just to "loldps" and enjoy those resists without Mastery of Focus), an arrow blocking style (60% and pretty useless in a group), a 5s/8s POSITIONAL stuns.

No snare

No Stoic

No way to improve the resist rate on Blizzard Blade or even increase the damage without blowing more points into aug str.

Why would you group a valewalker over any other mdps? Because of the 1.5k range lt that you can cast while...rooted to bring in dat amazing spike? l...ol?

Your typical response seems to be "uhm I ahm....they are fine!!!!!". If that is going to be what you're going to be posting (again), then let's just drop the subject :^) I like intelligent conversations with solid points/arguments.
Wed 7 Nov 2018 9:26 AM by Druth
Renork wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Nov 2018 10:12 PM
Your typical response seems to be "uhm I ahm....they are fine!!!!!". If that is going to be what you're going to be posting (again), then let's just drop the subject :^) I like intelligent conversations with solid points/arguments.

Not sure if you consider that an argument...
Or were you refering to this gem?

Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 9:06 PM
Even solo, a sb/infil can obliterate you unless your lovely 30m CD purge is up.

If you want a caster hybrid to survive that, then yes VW's needs a buff.
But so goes for many other classes, even more tanky classes.


I read your post, and I agree on some of your points. But the problem is you are taking every single strength the VW has and issolate them without looking at the bigger picture.

- Their snare is not useless, it both interrupts and lets you catch casters. Just dont use it on tanks.
- Their positional stuns are not hard to land, but like Grim said you are in a way "cheating" but that is how the coding is. Is slam better? Of course, but slam is not just better it is insaley OP. 9 sec melee anytime stuns should not be a part of the game. I understand that you drool over it, but it is a broken skill and I am convinced they wont let it stay 9 sec.
- Solo that dot has won me fights, grouped I used lowest for interrupt, but that is 2 interrupts (one even on 20 sec timer) and a 2.5 sec DD, it means the world to be able to do stuff while snared/rooted.
- Disease proc is always nice.
- Absorb puts you in chain catagory, and the 34% haste is very potent.

All the many chains are not something I can take very serious, but then again I came from playing friar on Uthgard and played reaver here.


NF RA's might help some, MoF is a thing suddenly, purge on 5 min timer helps hybrids a lot and Ichor is a nice group tool.
Wed 7 Nov 2018 1:34 PM by Renork
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Nov 2018 9:26 AM
Renork wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Nov 2018 10:12 PM
Your typical response seems to be "uhm I ahm....they are fine!!!!!". If that is going to be what you're going to be posting (again), then let's just drop the subject :^) I like intelligent conversations with solid points/arguments.

Not sure if you consider that an argument...
Or were you refering to this gem?

Renork wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Nov 2018 9:06 PM
Even solo, a sb/infil can obliterate you unless your lovely 30m CD purge is up.

If you want a caster hybrid to survive that, then yes VW's needs a buff.
But so goes for many other classes, even more tanky classes.


I read your post, and I agree on some of your points. But the problem is you are taking every single strength the VW has and issolate them without looking at the bigger picture.

- Their snare is not useless, it both interrupts and lets you catch casters. Just dont use it on tanks.
- Their positional stuns are not hard to land, but like Grim said you are in a way "cheating" but that is how the coding is. Is slam better? Of course, but slam is not just better it is insaley OP. 9 sec melee anytime stuns should not be a part of the game. I understand that you drool over it, but it is a broken skill and I am convinced they wont let it stay 9 sec.
- Solo that dot has won me fights, grouped I used lowest for interrupt, but that is 2 interrupts (one even on 20 sec timer) and a 2.5 sec DD, it means the world to be able to do stuff while snared/rooted.
- Disease proc is always nice.
- Absorb puts you in chain catagory, and the 34% haste is very potent.

All the many chains are not something I can take very serious, but then again I came from playing friar on Uthgard and played reaver here.


NF RA's might help some, MoF is a thing suddenly, purge on 5 min timer helps hybrids a lot and Ichor is a nice group tool.

Blissful ignorance. You should never be using that snare unless you are certain your group has won. That speaks volumes of your lack of experience in group play and with the class in general. For those that are playing valewalkers or thinking of playing one, please do not use your snare and give immunity, especially not to a caster. You're no different than a thane spamming lolaoehammers.

They have not provided any sort of indication that slam is going to be tweaked at all, so until then slam > all positional stuns.

You can't compare using the dot in a group environment to a solo environment. If you are fightinga caster or a thane solo, then of course you're going to use your dot. A valewalker has one castable spell, and gains benefit from int. but lacks the general utility that a true caster brings to a group.

Having good absorb does not make you lolgodmode, you are still on a hybrid hp table, you will still get blown up in a few seconds, and you will die to a melee train since your defense relies on your phenomenal evade IV and parry. If the class had both an AF and absorb buff like heretics do on live, then that would be a different story. You also still get hit quite hard by bolts since damage inflicted is based on AF and NOT absorb.

The class has long chains, which means you are going to be using SB or DG 99.9% of the time. Cool, 2 styles and a lt.

Disease proc is "15%". Um..yeah cool. Your friendly eld can disease better.

You played a reaver and friar in Uthgard, which means your play style is heavily centered around solo play, which is fine but that play style is completely different. As someone who also played a friar on Uthgard, I can tell you that you should never lose to a vw 1v1 and it goes without saying that a reaver mows over a vw, even if you purge the slam.

Curious, what is your highest rr with the class and how long have you played it? You seem to enjoy the solo play style which I do as well but this game isn't balanced around solo play, and even then there's so many other classes that can blow vdubs out of the water in solo play. If the class was godly in solo play, then I could see an argument being made about making it even stronger if it were to be tweaked, but as it stands now the class is mediocre in group play and below average in solo play.
Wed 7 Nov 2018 2:39 PM by Druth
Renork wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Nov 2018 1:34 PM
Blissful ignorance. You should never be using that snare unless you are certain your group has won. That speaks volumes of your lack of experience in group play and with the class in general. For those that are playing valewalkers or thinking of playing one, please do not use your snare and give immunity, especially not to a caster. You're no different than a thane spamming lolaoehammers.

They have not provided any sort of indication that slam is going to be tweaked at all, so until then slam > all positional stuns.

You can't compare using the dot in a group environment to a solo environment. If you are fightinga caster or a thane solo, then of course you're going to use your dot. A valewalker has one castable spell, and gains benefit from int. but lacks the general utility that a true caster brings to a group.

Having good absorb does not make you lolgodmode, you are still on a hybrid hp table, you will still get blown up in a few seconds, and you will die to a melee train since your defense relies on your phenomenal evade IV and parry. If the class had both an AF and absorb buff like heretics do on live, then that would be a different story. You also still get hit quite hard by bolts since damage inflicted is based on AF and NOT absorb.

The class has long chains, which means you are going to be using SB or DG 99.9% of the time. Cool, 2 styles and a lt.

Disease proc is "15%". Um..yeah cool. Your friendly eld can disease better.

You played a reaver and friar in Uthgard, which means your play style is heavily centered around solo play, which is fine but that play style is completely different. As someone who also played a friar on Uthgard, I can tell you that you should never lose to a vw 1v1 and it goes without saying that a reaver mows over a vw, even if you purge the slam.

Curious, what is your highest rr with the class and how long have you played it? You seem to enjoy the solo play style which I do as well but this game isn't balanced around solo play, and even then there's so many other classes that can blow vdubs out of the water in solo play. If the class was godly in solo play, then I could see an argument being made about making it even stronger if it were to be tweaked, but as it stands now the class is mediocre in group play and below average in solo play.

Again, VW is a hybrid and you are still doing 1on1 comparison on it's strength to other classes that are specialized.
Of course you wont be an effective caster, why bring a hib caster if VW does the same and can melee? And of course your disease will be inferior to someone casting it from 1500 range. But thats not the point, the point is the sum of things they can do means none of it will be very good.
And you wont be an effective melee, because then why bring any melee when you can get a melee that can also nuke?
It's like the debates around stealth v. visible, when assassins complain they can't win 1v1 vs. melee chars (which they sadly can now) and completely ignore they have stealth and thus the luxery of picking fights. Again, "jack of all, master of none".

A reaver will (and should) defeat a VW that goes face to face with a reaver, you are fighting a shield user and not getting value of your nukes. What do you think would happen?
But a friar...? Not sure how you'd loose that fight.

I got RR4 before I shelved VW and rolled Albion. I did some grouping, but Hib were all about: BM, Bard, Druid. So was not easy getting groups.

I view the class as mediocre in group and solo, and I'm afraid I don't see a problem with that.
Do you think the class should have a chance vs. sb/infil that lands PA/CD without your purge up?
Wed 7 Nov 2018 3:17 PM by Druth
Renork wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Nov 2018 1:34 PM
Just used for reference

I will test VW again, I might be horribly wrong and have a broken psyke at the end of my testing...
Will return with "results", as in my view on how it works.
My results might not persuade you if it's a positive experience, but a negative experience will convince me you are right at the very least

Solo testing will be easy, but might have problems testing it in groups, since... well... might have trouble finding a group
Wed 7 Nov 2018 3:32 PM by Renork
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Nov 2018 2:39 PM
Renork wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Nov 2018 1:34 PM
Blissful ignorance. You should never be using that snare unless you are certain your group has won. That speaks volumes of your lack of experience in group play and with the class in general. For those that are playing valewalkers or thinking of playing one, please do not use your snare and give immunity, especially not to a caster. You're no different than a thane spamming lolaoehammers.

They have not provided any sort of indication that slam is going to be tweaked at all, so until then slam > all positional stuns.

You can't compare using the dot in a group environment to a solo environment. If you are fightinga caster or a thane solo, then of course you're going to use your dot. A valewalker has one castable spell, and gains benefit from int. but lacks the general utility that a true caster brings to a group.

Having good absorb does not make you lolgodmode, you are still on a hybrid hp table, you will still get blown up in a few seconds, and you will die to a melee train since your defense relies on your phenomenal evade IV and parry. If the class had both an AF and absorb buff like heretics do on live, then that would be a different story. You also still get hit quite hard by bolts since damage inflicted is based on AF and NOT absorb.

The class has long chains, which means you are going to be using SB or DG 99.9% of the time. Cool, 2 styles and a lt.

Disease proc is "15%". Um..yeah cool. Your friendly eld can disease better.

You played a reaver and friar in Uthgard, which means your play style is heavily centered around solo play, which is fine but that play style is completely different. As someone who also played a friar on Uthgard, I can tell you that you should never lose to a vw 1v1 and it goes without saying that a reaver mows over a vw, even if you purge the slam.

Curious, what is your highest rr with the class and how long have you played it? You seem to enjoy the solo play style which I do as well but this game isn't balanced around solo play, and even then there's so many other classes that can blow vdubs out of the water in solo play. If the class was godly in solo play, then I could see an argument being made about making it even stronger if it were to be tweaked, but as it stands now the class is mediocre in group play and below average in solo play.

Again, VW is a hybrid and you are still doing 1on1 comparison on it's strength to other classes that are specialized.
Of course you wont be an effective caster, why bring a hib caster if VW does the same and can melee? And of course your disease will be inferior to someone casting it from 1500 range. But thats not the point, the point is the sum of things they can do means none of it will be very good.
And you wont be an effective melee, because then why bring any melee when you can get a melee that can also nuke?
It's like the debates around stealth v. visible, when assassins complain they can't win 1v1 vs. melee chars (which they sadly can now) and completely ignore they have stealth and thus the luxery of picking fights. Again, "jack of all, master of none".

A reaver will (and should) defeat a VW that goes face to face with a reaver, you are fighting a shield user and not getting value of your nukes. What do you think would happen?
But a friar...? Not sure how you'd loose that fight.

I got RR4 before I shelved VW and rolled Albion. I did some grouping, but Hib were all about: BM, Bard, Druid. So was not easy getting groups.

I view the class as mediocre in group and solo, and I'm afraid I don't see a problem with that.
Do you think the class should have a chance vs. sb/infil that lands PA/CD without your purge up?

I can make an i50 friar and show you how easy it is to beat a vw if you roll a vw :^) I do have to warn you I will be running through you to land my stuns. Even easier now since you can run through and back snare with the updated friar style, then heal up as necessary~ similar to how thane can now dd dd dd slam conquer conquer distance lol dddddddddd.

Right, there's no reason to group a vdub at this time. Mana chanter/light ment > vw, eld > vw, bm/hero > vw, champion eh... I would say the debuffsare annoying as heck, and you can still spec slam on a champ, snare and debuff so utility wise, imo champ > vw.

Being a hybrid doesn't mean you should be mediocre in both melee and casting, it should be a nice balance of both without making them more powerful than a regular tank or pure caster, hence why you have a nice absorb buff but terrible AF. At this time vdubs are mediocre in both fields and offer 0 utility. I'm not doing any group comparisons because every other class can do more "solid" damage while still providing a good amount of utility. You are not going to group a valewalker because they can do positional stuns when you can simply grab a bm, hero or champ that can slam and snare (without giving immunity) while providing constant solid dps (bm's in particular) and you are certainly not going to group a valewalker for their "caster" dps since it is subpar and has no synergy with the debuff meta. So, why group one again? It doesn't even fulfill a niche role.

It is disappointing to see that the least played class in the entire game (still to date) doesn't even get an update on their styles because on "paper" the devs are seeing "wow a lifedrain and a pbaoe style, wowz awesome damage, 34 absorb on cloth!!!".

No more dodger on valewalkers now :> RIP.
Thu 8 Nov 2018 5:42 PM by Splamo
So after looking at Friar I took a look at VW from this character planner (http://www.excidio.net/charplaner/). Again, not sure how correct this is.

Some potential VW improvements that might make them more viable in groups:

    Group Damage Add (lacking in Hib)
    PBAE Instant Disease (with cooldown)
    AoE Castable Disease

Another idea would changing/adding a Scythe style that procs Disease or PBAE Disease. Could balance it with very high end cost, short cooldown or positional requirement, if it even needs any of that.

Any of the above is in-keeping with the theme of the VW.
Thu 8 Nov 2018 6:24 PM by Renork
Splamo wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 5:42 PM
So after looking at Friar I took a look at VW from this character planner (http://www.excidio.net/charplaner/). Again, not sure how correct this is.

Some potential VW improvements that might make them more viable in groups:

    Group Damage Add (lacking in Hib)
    PBAE Instant Disease (with cooldown)
    AoE Castable Disease

Another idea would changing/adding a Scythe style that procs Disease or PBAE Disease. Could balance it with very high end cost, short cooldown or positional requirement, if it even needs any of that.

Any of the above is in-keeping with the theme of the VW.

Would be very nice, but unlikely to happen. They already said they are done with class changes. I'm a vdub lover, so If I play hib i'll level one and keep him in Caledonia :^) definitely not worth taking/playing at 50. Thane seems much more attractive now that they have faster casting dd's, MoM, Mota, WP, (NNFRAs). No more dodger makes the class even less attractive for solo play too.

Live did a good job balancing the class by cutting down the long chains, giving them castable disesase, pbaoe disease, damage add, snare style, single target DD styles, immolation, etc. They may have screwed up their game, but at least they were finally able to balance one class the correct way, lol.
Thu 8 Nov 2018 9:08 PM by inxi
Splamo wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Nov 2018 5:42 PM
So after looking at Friar I took a look at VW from this character planner (http://www.excidio.net/charplaner/). Again, not sure how correct this is.

That is up to date (at least until next big patch that hits soon'ish) for Live ywain. I've used it while playing on live lately.
Sat 10 Nov 2018 8:05 AM by Bethoc
I'm now worried about hybrids who depended on Dodger for defense and important evade reactionary styles, namely the Friar and Valewalker. Its removal as a realm ability is an indirect but major nerf to both, and they will likely be quite underpowered without compensatory buffs. The simplest fix, of course, would be the addition of Dodger into the new RA system. This has already been allowed for other OF RAs.
Sun 11 Nov 2018 10:22 PM by Renork
Bethoc wrote: ↑
Sat 10 Nov 2018 8:05 AM
I'm now worried about hybrids who depended on Dodger for defense and important evade reactionary styles, namely the Friar and Valewalker. Its removal as a realm ability is an indirect but major nerf to both, and they will likely be quite underpowered without compensatory buffs. The simplest fix, of course, would be the addition of Dodger into the new RA system. This has already been allowed for other OF RAs.

I saw Uth mention in Discord that they are working on tweaking RA's at this time and they will go back to class balancing afterwards. I believe one of the main problems is that not a lot of people play the class, and those that currently play the class don't provide any feedback. We also have people like Druth (no offense intended) say the class is "good" and then obviously change his opinion to "oh they're mediocre in groups", so I can see why the devs would have a hard time making adjustments if we have statements like those. I "think" once Phoenix goes live and they see that only a select few play the class, then maybe they'll consider revisiting it and adjusting things accordingly.

On live you have several roles, you can peel with damaging grasp, stunning blade, or foxfire (snare).
You have a longer range aoe disease and a pbaoe disease for both interrupting and peeling (can also use pb disease while assisting).
The styles are a lot shorter, you can use damaging grasp --> snowblade while assisting without breaking CC on anyone or you can use stunning blade --> blizzard blade for quicker spike.
You also have grasping roots as a frontal short duration root, but typically lasts 2 seconds on tanks or anyone with det. It is still a great tool for solo play if you want to kite and lt though. Group damage add was a nice addition since hibs don't really have it outside of non-existent enchantment chanters. The RR5 was adjusted to a 2k buffer, etc.
The survivability is still crappy since AF is so low, BUT the class has so much utility on live that it would be silly to give them more AF.

You obviously can equip s/s on live and can cast very fast if you template appropriately, unlike here that you are stuck with around 240-260 dex and you would be really silly to spec Mastery of the Art or aug dex for one spell (lifetap).

I saw a Firby vw with a bard today trying to kill 2 stealthers and as soon as a wizzy bolted the vw they flopped fast, I felt bad :^). Stunningstylez cleaned everyone up (champ+bard) nicely afterwards though.

The class is still playable, but so are smite clerics and matter sorcs :^) playable does not = viable. For those that use the "but you can cast while rooted!!!" argument, how many times do you or anyone in your group actually root a valewalker? lol.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 7:46 AM by Druth
Renork wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Nov 2018 10:22 PM
I saw Uth mention in Discord that they are working on tweaking RA's at this time and they will go back to class balancing afterwards. I believe one of the main problems is that not a lot of people play the class, and those that currently play the class don't provide any feedback. We also have people like Druth (no offense intended) say the class is "good" and then obviously change his opinion to "oh they're mediocre in groups", so I can see why the devs would have a hard time making adjustments if we have statements like those. I "think" once Phoenix goes live and they see that only a select few play the class, then maybe they'll consider revisiting it and adjusting things accordingly.

On live you have several roles, you can peel with damaging grasp, stunning blade, or foxfire (snare).
You have a longer range aoe disease and a pbaoe disease for both interrupting and peeling (can also use pb disease while assisting).
The styles are a lot shorter, you can use damaging grasp --> snowblade while assisting without breaking CC on anyone or you can use stunning blade --> blizzard blade for quicker spike.
You also have grasping roots as a frontal short duration root, but typically lasts 2 seconds on tanks or anyone with det. It is still a great tool for solo play if you want to kite and lt though. Group damage add was a nice addition since hibs don't really have it outside of non-existent enchantment chanters. The RR5 was adjusted to a 2k buffer, etc.
The survivability is still crappy since AF is so low, BUT the class has so much utility on live that it would be silly to give them more AF.

You obviously can equip s/s on live and can cast very fast if you template appropriately, unlike here that you are stuck with around 240-260 dex and you would be really silly to spec Mastery of the Art or aug dex for one spell (lifetap).

I saw a Firby vw with a bard today trying to kill 2 stealthers and as soon as a wizzy bolted the vw they flopped fast, I felt bad :^). Stunningstylez cleaned everyone up (champ+bard) nicely afterwards though.

The class is still playable, but so are smite clerics and matter sorcs :^) playable does not = viable. For those that use the "but you can cast while rooted!!!" argument, how many times do you or anyone in your group actually root a valewalker? lol.

First of all, I don't think I ever said VW was good. I said it was solid dps, and a fine class. Being mediocre is not bad.

Problem is some VW's like you wants to be able to win a scenario where a SB PA/CD you and you dont have purge up.
You want to be OP, and I don't think the game benefits from everyone wanting their class in tier 1.


I've started my testing of VW, and the initial testing is muddled by having a hard time finding anything but 2v1 or more...
Want to start of being solo, because there are many skills you need to use (like reaver, vw uses a LOT of styles).
But got RR6 last night (no amazing feat) in 1+ hours time.

Pro:
- the dps is massive, no idea where you get your data from, but using fastest scythe I dropped a hunter in the 5 sec stun, and killing skald and a sb easy.
- utility (casting wise) is good, especially getting ichor helps on adding utility. Need to figure out if Ichor grants root immune though, because that be super bad in groups.
- Purge 3 means I have purge up most fights, but did have a minstrel run from me due to flute and then stun. Hard to win fights that opponents dodge
- Stuns are easy to land, but everyone has purge up all the time... is why I land the 5 sec in start of fight, in the hopes that I might get off a second stun later in fight.

Con:
- The lifetap is really getting resisted a lot, not sure of MoF is not working, but my 3 levels doesn't seem to help much really. The damage is fine 250-290 depending on resists, but the resists hurts a lot. Again, not sure if MoF works...
- No snare, I agree this is bad, and I feel it against opponents that try to run. Guess all melee should have a snare that doesn't give immunity.
- Survival, 2 shots from bow drops me to almost 50%. Not testing the arrow block yet, to much other skills to keep track of so far.
- No dodger is annoying, but on the other hand so was it to fight assassins with dodger.


So far, I in no way feel inferior while solo, I just feel zerged
Have a feeling that grouped play will prove harder though, the no melee snare is a problem.

If I were to add something to VW so far, it would be disease having higher proc rate, like 50%, or even 70%.
That would eliminate the need for snare, and add immense utility for groups.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 8:52 AM by Druth
And I will also add, that it's major depressing to land a 8 sec potitional stun, and then be hit by a 9 sec anytime stun

Really wish "skill" was rewarded a little more...
Reducing slam timer would indirectly buff VW.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 4:18 PM by Renork
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 7:46 AM
Renork wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Nov 2018 10:22 PM
I saw Uth mention in Discord that they are working on tweaking RA's at this time and they will go back to class balancing afterwards. I believe one of the main problems is that not a lot of people play the class, and those that currently play the class don't provide any feedback. We also have people like Druth (no offense intended) say the class is "good" and then obviously change his opinion to "oh they're mediocre in groups", so I can see why the devs would have a hard time making adjustments if we have statements like those. I "think" once Phoenix goes live and they see that only a select few play the class, then maybe they'll consider revisiting it and adjusting things accordingly.

On live you have several roles, you can peel with damaging grasp, stunning blade, or foxfire (snare).
You have a longer range aoe disease and a pbaoe disease for both interrupting and peeling (can also use pb disease while assisting).
The styles are a lot shorter, you can use damaging grasp --> snowblade while assisting without breaking CC on anyone or you can use stunning blade --> blizzard blade for quicker spike.
You also have grasping roots as a frontal short duration root, but typically lasts 2 seconds on tanks or anyone with det. It is still a great tool for solo play if you want to kite and lt though. Group damage add was a nice addition since hibs don't really have it outside of non-existent enchantment chanters. The RR5 was adjusted to a 2k buffer, etc.
The survivability is still crappy since AF is so low, BUT the class has so much utility on live that it would be silly to give them more AF.

You obviously can equip s/s on live and can cast very fast if you template appropriately, unlike here that you are stuck with around 240-260 dex and you would be really silly to spec Mastery of the Art or aug dex for one spell (lifetap).

I saw a Firby vw with a bard today trying to kill 2 stealthers and as soon as a wizzy bolted the vw they flopped fast, I felt bad :^). Stunningstylez cleaned everyone up (champ+bard) nicely afterwards though.

The class is still playable, but so are smite clerics and matter sorcs :^) playable does not = viable. For those that use the "but you can cast while rooted!!!" argument, how many times do you or anyone in your group actually root a valewalker? lol.

First of all, I don't think I ever said VW was good. I said it was solid dps, and a fine class. Being mediocre is not bad.

Problem is some VW's like you wants to be able to win a scenario where a SB PA/CD you and you dont have purge up.
You want to be OP, and I don't think the game benefits from everyone wanting their class in tier 1.


I've started my testing of VW, and the initial testing is muddled by having a hard time finding anything but 2v1 or more...
Want to start of being solo, because there are many skills you need to use (like reaver, vw uses a LOT of styles).
But got RR6 last night (no amazing feat) in 1+ hours time.

Pro:
- the dps is massive, no idea where you get your data from, but using fastest scythe I dropped a hunter in the 5 sec stun, and killing skald and a sb easy.
- utility (casting wise) is good, especially getting ichor helps on adding utility. Need to figure out if Ichor grants root immune though, because that be super bad in groups.
- Purge 3 means I have purge up most fights, but did have a minstrel run from me due to flute and then stun. Hard to win fights that opponents dodge
- Stuns are easy to land, but everyone has purge up all the time... is why I land the 5 sec in start of fight, in the hopes that I might get off a second stun later in fight.

Con:
- The lifetap is really getting resisted a lot, not sure of MoF is not working, but my 3 levels doesn't seem to help much really. The damage is fine 250-290 depending on resists, but the resists hurts a lot. Again, not sure if MoF works...
- No snare, I agree this is bad, and I feel it against opponents that try to run. Guess all melee should have a snare that doesn't give immunity.
- Survival, 2 shots from bow drops me to almost 50%. Not testing the arrow block yet, to much other skills to keep track of so far.
- No dodger is annoying, but on the other hand so was it to fight assassins with dodger.


So far, I in no way feel inferior while solo, I just feel zerged
Have a feeling that grouped play will prove harder though, the no melee snare is a problem.

If I were to add something to VW so far, it would be disease having higher proc rate, like 50%, or even 70%.
That would eliminate the need for snare, and add immense utility for groups.

Data from years of playing the class versus your 1 hour of play time. You killed a hunter? I sure hope that you did. You are fighting against a class that has no PD and doesn't have access to Dodger anymore. They also have Evade 3?, so congratulations on that huge accomplishment, I killed a solo wizard the other day and dropped him in 4 hits, clearly my dps is massive. I'm sure no other tank, light tank or hybrid could have pulled that off. The other day I 3 shot a ns after slamming him with my reaver. I also quad hitted a ment down and killed her in "2 hits" with my svg :^).

The reason for speccing ichor was/is to reset root or snare immunity, someone already reported that it does not reset it here however. Is it worth taking for 5 points still? Sure, it's not like you have any ra's that are crucial to get anyways.

Arrow blocking doesn't seem to be working properly, but I honestly don't think it ever did. You got dropped to 50% in two hits? damn, you have 34 absorb tho, isn't that what you said? How is that even possible? Mind blown that someone with plate absorb got hit so hard. Maybe...and this is just like total speculation, but do you perhaps think it has something to do with the AF? I could be wrong though and you could be right, 34 absorb on a cloth wearing class = paladin.

Utility "casting" wise, lol yeah that 1 lifedrain gives you immense utility. Keep telling yourself that.

Your posts are just entertaining to me at this point . Now next step is to group up and provide everyone with your "data". I'm ever so looking forward to your success stories like "Oh yeah I got rooted and then this group let me just lifedrain and never moved out of 1.5k range and yeah my super casting lifedrain was hitting everyone for liek 290, so yeah I don't know about you but my dmg is like insane".

I'm curious how the hunter lost though, especially if he got crit shot and at least a regular shot off. I would love to roll an i50 hunter and fight your very solid solo valewalker. Just let me know when :^) I won't 2v1 you.

Here's a real non sarcastic challenge for you,

Play for more than a couple of hours.

Group up, make a video, show the "utility" that the class brings to a group. You obviously seem to have a unique gift for this class and can somehow make it shine when other people can't, so help your fellow players out and show everyone how it's done. Solo fights (if you can find any) would be great too. Good luck. Also as a side note, slam is 5s on live so DG 8s stun > slam in "most cases", also you can bodyguard so the utility is very nice. Here, a 9s anytime stun > a positional stun, regardless how much anyone cries or cuts themselves over the argument.
Tue 13 Nov 2018 1:35 AM by Abattoir
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 7:46 AM
Renork wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Nov 2018 10:22 PM
Problem is some VW's like you wants to be able to win a scenario where a SB PA/CD you and you dont have purge up.
You want to be OP, and I don't think the game benefits from everyone wanting their class in tier 1.

Wtf is this nonsense?

The only thing hybrids want is to be viable.

The problem is this "tier 1" bs as you put it.

Make hybrids viable, there is no "tier 1"
Tue 13 Nov 2018 2:02 AM by Cider
Bethoc wrote: ↑
Sat 10 Nov 2018 8:05 AM
I'm now worried about hybrids who depended on Dodger for defense and important evade reactionary styles, namely the Friar and Valewalker. Its removal as a realm ability is an indirect but major nerf to both, and they will likely be quite underpowered without compensatory buffs. The simplest fix, of course, would be the addition of Dodger into the new RA system. This has already been allowed for other OF RAs.

It sure does feel like a major nerf. As a friar, I have been relegated to being about just 1 RA, Static Tempest (Reflex attack now sucks as it can actually nerfs your dps if it triggers at certain times). Real, fun and close fights solo are now a thing of the past. ST up, stun locked opponent (boring fight and cheesy win), ST down and I die like a melee scout. I've given up playing the friar for now as a result.

Re-introducing dodger to all classes that previously had it, add warriors to the list (only evade able class that couldnt get it) and exclude assassins, would be a big improvement.

I also wish they would put reflex attack back to old style active. ATM its useless as a passive due to the attack being unstyled and resetting the melee timer which actually reduces dps. It also doesnt trigger enough even at supposed 50% chance to compensate (double countering a dw rarely happens).
Tue 13 Nov 2018 12:02 PM by Druth
Renork wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 4:18 PM
Data from years of playing the class versus your 1 hour of play time. You killed a hunter? I sure hope that you did. You are fighting against a class that has no PD and doesn't have access to Dodger anymore. They also have Evade 3?, so congratulations on that huge accomplishment, I killed a solo wizard the other day and dropped him in 4 hits, clearly my dps is massive. I'm sure no other tank, light tank or hybrid could have pulled that off. The other day I 3 shot a ns after slamming him with my reaver. I also quad hitted a ment down and killed her in "2 hits" with my svg :^).

The reason for speccing ichor was/is to reset root or snare immunity, someone already reported that it does not reset it here however. Is it worth taking for 5 points still? Sure, it's not like you have any ra's that are crucial to get anyways.

Arrow blocking doesn't seem to be working properly, but I honestly don't think it ever did. You got dropped to 50% in two hits? damn, you have 34 absorb tho, isn't that what you said? How is that even possible? Mind blown that someone with plate absorb got hit so hard. Maybe...and this is just like total speculation, but do you perhaps think it has something to do with the AF? I could be wrong though and you could be right, 34 absorb on a cloth wearing class = paladin.

Utility "casting" wise, lol yeah that 1 lifedrain gives you immense utility. Keep telling yourself that.

Your posts are just entertaining to me at this point . Now next step is to group up and provide everyone with your "data". I'm ever so looking forward to your success stories like "Oh yeah I got rooted and then this group let me just lifedrain and never moved out of 1.5k range and yeah my super casting lifedrain was hitting everyone for liek 290, so yeah I don't know about you but my dmg is like insane".

I'm curious how the hunter lost though, especially if he got crit shot and at least a regular shot off. I would love to roll an i50 hunter and fight your very solid solo valewalker. Just let me know when :^) I won't 2v1 you.

Here's a real non sarcastic challenge for you,

Play for more than a couple of hours.

Group up, make a video, show the "utility" that the class brings to a group. You obviously seem to have a unique gift for this class and can somehow make it shine when other people can't, so help your fellow players out and show everyone how it's done. Solo fights (if you can find any) would be great too. Good luck. Also as a side note, slam is 5s on live so DG 8s stun > slam in "most cases", also you can bodyguard so the utility is very nice. Here, a 9s anytime stun > a positional stun, regardless how much anyone cries or cuts themselves over the argument.

Reaver has highest postional damage in the game, again I think you want your class to be OP if you want that kind of positional damage. The damage without potionals is crap, compared to VW.

Anyway, you are not interested in a constructive discussion, you just want your class to survive stuff few classes can survive, have reaver positional damage, slam conditional stun, melee snare, and keep your lifetap.
And if people don't agree they are your enemies.

16 years does not reflect on your knowledge of the class, it just made you really bitter.
For some a lot of time on a class still lets them be objective on the strengths and weaknesses, and for some it makes them incredibly biased.


And I'm all up for showing you how it's done, schoolyard style, but in DaoC.
If you think hunter will do it, fine, but I expect that it wont be much fun for you. Unless you stay stealthed of course.
You suggested friar as well, will be fun stuff.
Tue 13 Nov 2018 11:10 PM by Renork
Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Nov 2018 12:02 PM
Renork wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 4:18 PM
Data from years of playing the class versus your 1 hour of play time. You killed a hunter? I sure hope that you did. You are fighting against a class that has no PD and doesn't have access to Dodger anymore. They also have Evade 3?, so congratulations on that huge accomplishment, I killed a solo wizard the other day and dropped him in 4 hits, clearly my dps is massive. I'm sure no other tank, light tank or hybrid could have pulled that off. The other day I 3 shot a ns after slamming him with my reaver. I also quad hitted a ment down and killed her in "2 hits" with my svg :^).

The reason for speccing ichor was/is to reset root or snare immunity, someone already reported that it does not reset it here however. Is it worth taking for 5 points still? Sure, it's not like you have any ra's that are crucial to get anyways.

Arrow blocking doesn't seem to be working properly, but I honestly don't think it ever did. You got dropped to 50% in two hits? damn, you have 34 absorb tho, isn't that what you said? How is that even possible? Mind blown that someone with plate absorb got hit so hard. Maybe...and this is just like total speculation, but do you perhaps think it has something to do with the AF? I could be wrong though and you could be right, 34 absorb on a cloth wearing class = paladin.

Utility "casting" wise, lol yeah that 1 lifedrain gives you immense utility. Keep telling yourself that.

Your posts are just entertaining to me at this point . Now next step is to group up and provide everyone with your "data". I'm ever so looking forward to your success stories like "Oh yeah I got rooted and then this group let me just lifedrain and never moved out of 1.5k range and yeah my super casting lifedrain was hitting everyone for liek 290, so yeah I don't know about you but my dmg is like insane".

I'm curious how the hunter lost though, especially if he got crit shot and at least a regular shot off. I would love to roll an i50 hunter and fight your very solid solo valewalker. Just let me know when :^) I won't 2v1 you.

Here's a real non sarcastic challenge for you,

Play for more than a couple of hours.

Group up, make a video, show the "utility" that the class brings to a group. You obviously seem to have a unique gift for this class and can somehow make it shine when other people can't, so help your fellow players out and show everyone how it's done. Solo fights (if you can find any) would be great too. Good luck. Also as a side note, slam is 5s on live so DG 8s stun > slam in "most cases", also you can bodyguard so the utility is very nice. Here, a 9s anytime stun > a positional stun, regardless how much anyone cries or cuts themselves over the argument.

Reaver has highest postional damage in the game, again I think you want your class to be OP if you want that kind of positional damage. The damage without potionals is crap, compared to VW.

Anyway, you are not interested in a constructive discussion, you just want your class to survive stuff few classes can survive, have reaver positional damage, slam conditional stun, melee snare, and keep your lifetap.
And if people don't agree they are your enemies.

16 years does not reflect on your knowledge of the class, it just made you really bitter.
For some a lot of time on a class still lets them be objective on the strengths and weaknesses, and for some it makes them incredibly biased.


And I'm all up for showing you how it's done, schoolyard style, but in DaoC.
If you think hunter will do it, fine, but I expect that it wont be much fun for you. Unless you stay stealthed of course.
You suggested friar as well, will be fun stuff.

You're like that kid in school, college, work etc. that has zero clue about the topic being discussed but absolutely cannot resist the urge to give his/her 2 cents, no matter how doltish you make yourself sound.

There are 14? pages on this thread. How many people have actually agreed with any of your nonsense? If your goal is to make yourself look like an attention starved clown, then please continue and don't let me deter you from accomplishing your goals. Obviously /region is not enough for you.


I will end my interaction with you by reiterating that the class provides nothing of value to a group and there is no reason to group one over a bm, hero, or champ

I). It has no reliable snare outside of the insta snare (that gives free root immunity).
II). Both stuns are positionals, which means they are not reliable or available on demand, unlike the good old anytime 9s slam.
III). The "huge" dps comes from a 3 part positional chain that ends with a level 29 pbaoe dd attached, which you shouldn't be using unless your target is over extending or your group has already won the fight. The extra damage (assuming it is not resisted) does not make up for the fact that you are breaking all forms of CC around you, melee snares and mezzes included.
IV). It has a 4 chain evade and a 3 parry chain, both are never used outside of pve. If you are soloing, you're going to be gunning for landing blizzard blades and not long chains on a 2h class.
V). Your typical cookie cutter spec will be 50s 38a 20p. What exactly do you use from that? Stunning Blade (+/- 3 chain if you're solo), Damaging Grasp, and your lv45 lifedrain. The dot is situational and you shouldn't be using your highest one to interrupt. The snare is next to useless outside a solo fight. The disease proc is decent, but sadly unreliable with its low chance to proc.
VI). The class has abysmal defense, especially with the loss of dodger (no advanced evade either).
VII). Bolts are extremely painful due to low AF.
VIII). Having a lv45 lifedrain is nice for when you're rooted, but it does not give the class this "massive glorious" utility that you're trying to paint here. If you are running in a group, then you're going to getting det 9 so being rooted becomes a less important factor.
IX). Arboreal shield has always been broken
X). It is the least played class in Hib

You can challenge those points all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you are and will continue to be wrong. No one wants to make hybrids overpowered on this thread. The goal is to make them balanced and worthy of a spot in a group, which is currently not the case. Carry on now~
Tue 13 Nov 2018 11:41 PM by Cadebrennus
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 8:52 AM
And I will also add, that it's major depressing to land a 8 sec potitional stun, and then be hit by a 9 sec anytime stun

Really wish "skill" was rewarded a little more...
Reducing slam timer would indirectly buff VW.

Agreed. Even if Slam was reduced to 5 seconds for all classes it would still be a longer stun than Ice Storm lol
Wed 14 Nov 2018 8:36 AM by Druth
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Nov 2018 11:41 PM
Agreed. Even if Slam was reduced to 5 seconds for all classes it would still be a longer stun than Ice Storm lol

I'm a hardliner, I think not even heavy tanks should get anytime 9 sec stun. Don't care if slam was 10 sec backside stun.
It's really tirering to have fight after fight where you can watch your opponent do the visually clear slam animation until they land it, and then better have purge up.
Wed 14 Nov 2018 11:35 AM by Druth
Renork wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Nov 2018 11:10 PM
I will end my interaction with you by reiterating that the class provides nothing of value to a group and there is no reason to group one over a bm, hero, or champ

This is a slam issue more than anything. Nerf slam and this evens out a lot more. Especially if BM's suddenly can't land good stuns.
Also, a few weeks ago WV was more played than champ, so I think this is an issue with anomalies playing a class they like and not champs being better.

Renork wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Nov 2018 11:10 PM
I). It has no reliable snare outside of the insta snare (that gives free root immunity).
II). Both stuns are positionals, which means they are not reliable or available on demand, unlike the good old anytime 9s slam.
III). The "huge" dps comes from a 3 part positional chain that ends with a level 29 pbaoe dd attached, which you shouldn't be using unless your target is over extending or your group has already won the fight. The extra damage (assuming it is not resisted) does not make up for the fact that you are breaking all forms of CC around you, melee snares and mezzes included.
IV). It has a 4 chain evade and a 3 parry chain, both are never used outside of pve. If you are soloing, you're going to be gunning for landing blizzard blades and not long chains on a 2h class.
V). Your typical cookie cutter spec will be 50s 38a 20p. What exactly do you use from that? Stunning Blade (+/- 3 chain if you're solo), Damaging Grasp, and your lv45 lifedrain. The dot is situational and you shouldn't be using your highest one to interrupt. The snare is next to useless outside a solo fight. The disease proc is decent, but sadly unreliable with its low chance to proc.
VI). The class has abysmal defense, especially with the loss of dodger (no advanced evade either).
VII). Bolts are extremely painful due to low AF.
VIII). Having a lv45 lifedrain is nice for when you're rooted, but it does not give the class this "massive glorious" utility that you're trying to paint here. If you are running in a group, then you're going to getting det 9 so being rooted becomes a less important factor.
IX). Arboreal shield has always been broken
X). It is the least played class in Hib

You can challenge those points all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you are and will continue to be wrong. No one wants to make hybrids overpowered on this thread. The goal is to make them balanced and worthy of a spot in a group, which is currently not the case. Carry on now~

Again, youtake apart the VW and viewing each strength/weakness seperately.
Again, I am not seeing low damage on my VW, even without landing positionals or chains the scythe hits hard and with haste also fairly fast.

Might be better to ask what you would change for it to be viable and not OP?

I would make disease have way higher proc, and nerf slam, if I were to improve VW without making them OP.

My initial point, waaaaaay back, was that VW was not in a catagory of hybrids needing buff.
Thane, friar, and paladin being the only ones needing buffs.
Thane being a weak-sauce VW, being able to do ranged dps, but had abysmal melee damage.
Paladin in that armsman did ALL paladin did, but better due to endo pots and chants being to weak (and actually directly disruptive) to be worth taking paladin for.
Friar being debatable, but due to alb dynamic of needing so many classes to make up core group, they had no room for a class like friar.
Fri 16 Nov 2018 12:20 PM by Tydowen
About pally :

I am having really hard time convince my guilde to keep me a slot (and I understand them !) :

Before all, I need to give a little thumb up because paladin's chants can be now use without end cost. This is a really welcome and needed up.

* Let's talk about solo quick, since 2 days I just roll on everything, even if 90% of the encounters are stealthers. I managed often 2 sb/ns. ofc with solo RA. no Det.

Reverse side, as every visible class without speed 5, you get roll by small/fg.
On long term solo ? not viable because of what I just said before (unless people behave fairly, Drachengarde ?).
Still though, I think people realize little by little than the class became really strong in 1vs1.

* For group...
Get one invit is damn hard. Let's face it :
- stoicism > chants. leviathan > chants
- red end is atm useless on alb (ok let's say really not necessary). We know why, right ?

You will see paladin in group, but casual, pugs, smallman.
Question is ... can the staff change something about it without unbalance an other side or unplease big part of the community, difficult.
Fri 30 Nov 2018 4:42 PM by kedelin
Pally is def wanted in any tank group cause of red endo... with out red and tanks are ooe after 4 styles while chasing some one
Wed 12 Dec 2018 5:50 PM by opossum12
I was discussing hib group comps with friends and the VW was brought on the table. How come VWs are extremely good on live and they are so meh here?

I think the argument previously in this thread highlighted a lot of points, but looking at the VW from a grouping perspective, the lack of melee snare is the biggest set back inmy opinion.


Right off evade 4 part chain
Arb fire -> foxfire -> flaming scythe -> conflag

Proposal:
Split arb fire from chain, change foxfire to a 12 sec back snare style, keep the flaming scythe and conflag follow-ups the same.

With that change I would definitely have a Vw in group. Maybe the foxfire->flaming scythe->conflag is too strong in a tanker, would have to see.
Fri 21 Dec 2018 9:07 PM by BisbyHoughton
Any final thoughts from folks on Friars?
Sat 22 Dec 2018 10:55 AM by Glimmer
BisbyHoughton wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Dec 2018 9:07 PM
Any final thoughts from folks on Friars?

Friars are decent vs sneaks(with reflex attack) even more deadly for them. The worst class you can fight are shield tanks, but top worst enemys are champs due of their Op debuffs that you are almost unable to hit them.
Mon 24 Dec 2018 7:31 PM by BisbyHoughton
Glimmer wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Dec 2018 10:55 AM
BisbyHoughton wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Dec 2018 9:07 PM
Any final thoughts from folks on Friars?

Friars are decent vs sneaks(with reflex attack) even more deadly for them. The worst class you can fight are shield tanks, but top worst enemys are champs due of their Op debuffs that you are almost unable to hit them.

Thanks for the feedback. I recall there being some concern on this thread about their viability w Dodger being off the table due to how RAs are being handled now so wasn't sure if folks felt Friars were completely off the table due to that.
Fri 28 Dec 2018 4:41 AM by Salviati
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Nov 2018 8:36 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Nov 2018 11:41 PM
Agreed. Even if Slam was reduced to 5 seconds for all classes it would still be a longer stun than Ice Storm lol

I'm a hardliner, I think not even heavy tanks should get anytime 9 sec stun. Don't care if slam was 10 sec backside stun.
It's really tirering to have fight after fight where you can watch your opponent do the visually clear slam animation until they land it, and then better have purge up.

That's DAoC. If that bothers you, you may as well go find another game to play because slam is its bread and butter and the only reason shield is specced to 42 as it is.
Fri 28 Dec 2018 12:04 PM by Druth
Salviati wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Dec 2018 4:41 AM
That's DAoC. If that bothers you, you may as well go find another game to play because slam is its bread and butter and the only reason shield is specced to 42 as it is.

So was perma stun/mez/root, until they changed it. So was unlimited +% casting speed/damage/spell pierce, until they changed it (yes that is ToA, but if the server had been just one patch further we'd have that).

DaoC, to me, is a game that rewards good plays, slam is both a bad design and bad balance that rewards spamming the same style.
Bad design because it's a full skill line that has one "win all" style, compared to pretty much every other skill line in the entire game, across all classes, that requires you to pick the right style for the job.
Bad balance because it's also the best stun style in the game and it's not given to all classes, some who in return has really crap melee stuns (both crap conditions and crap duration).

If you want to use the *sighs* old argument "That's DAoC" what do you mean? DaoC launch? 1.65? What???
If you mean 1.65, then this server is not for you, Uthgard even without SI is much closer to 1.65.

And seeing stuff like this regarding minstrels "In fact, I would say it should have its ability to charm pets completely removed and given nothing in return." Kinda makes me suspect "That's DAoC" is a line used when people suggest things you (and most who use that line as some sort of argument) don't agree with.
Fri 28 Dec 2018 1:39 PM by opossum12
Still think slam should be 9 sec on heavy tanks (arms/war/hero) and 5 sec on light tanks (bm/merc) and hybrids (reaver, pally, thane, champ), the same way it is on live. We can bitch about live a lot, but one thing over the years that was attained is balance. Scrap the last 3 years of Broadsword stupidity and it was a really good game back then.

At 5 sec/anytime, slam is still a huge style to use and still 100% justifies spending 42 points in it (since what would bm/mercs get instead?)

However, right now it is a lot less of a big deal since people do not group pallys, reavers and thanes, that alb tankers don’t exist anymore since the endo changes and that the typical hib train is champ/hero/bm (compared to the triple bm at start of beta).
Sun 6 Jan 2019 12:53 PM by Salviati
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Dec 2018 12:04 PM
Salviati wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Dec 2018 4:41 AM
That's DAoC. If that bothers you, you may as well go find another game to play because slam is its bread and butter and the only reason shield is specced to 42 as it is.

So was perma stun/mez/root, until they changed it. So was unlimited +% casting speed/damage/spell pierce, until they changed it (yes that is ToA, but if the server had been just one patch further we'd have that).

DaoC, to me, is a game that rewards good plays, slam is both a bad design and bad balance that rewards spamming the same style.
Bad design because it's a full skill line that has one "win all" style, compared to pretty much every other skill line in the entire game, across all classes, that requires you to pick the right style for the job.
Bad balance because it's also the best stun style in the game and it's not given to all classes, some who in return has really crap melee stuns (both crap conditions and crap duration).

If you want to use the *sighs* old argument "That's DAoC" what do you mean? DaoC launch? 1.65? What???
If you mean 1.65, then this server is not for you, Uthgard even without SI is much closer to 1.65.

And seeing stuff like this regarding minstrels "In fact, I would say it should have its ability to charm pets completely removed and given nothing in return." Kinda makes me suspect "That's DAoC" is a line used when people suggest things you (and most who use that line as some sort of argument) don't agree with.

What I mean, oh so obviously, is DAOC at the point where everyone is trying to emulate it. Otherwise, everything else you said either doesn't apply or doesn't make sense. Slam has never been a "win all" style by any measure for any classes. But removing it or modifying it would render, for example, the scout, unplayable. That'd be like taking buffs away from rangers and capping offhand swings at around 20% just because for some reason and I'm a dev who doesn't like rangers. Or whining because hunter pets interrupt and taking away their speed and self buffs. Archery is already pretty much useless, you have to be a moron to die to arrows. I don't think any decent player has been crit shot or died to a solo archer firing arrows since 2002 under classic rules.
Sun 6 Jan 2019 3:06 PM by inoeth
Salviati wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Jan 2019 12:53 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Dec 2018 12:04 PM
Salviati wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Dec 2018 4:41 AM
That's DAoC. If that bothers you, you may as well go find another game to play because slam is its bread and butter and the only reason shield is specced to 42 as it is.

So was perma stun/mez/root, until they changed it. So was unlimited +% casting speed/damage/spell pierce, until they changed it (yes that is ToA, but if the server had been just one patch further we'd have that).

DaoC, to me, is a game that rewards good plays, slam is both a bad design and bad balance that rewards spamming the same style.
Bad design because it's a full skill line that has one "win all" style, compared to pretty much every other skill line in the entire game, across all classes, that requires you to pick the right style for the job.
Bad balance because it's also the best stun style in the game and it's not given to all classes, some who in return has really crap melee stuns (both crap conditions and crap duration).

If you want to use the *sighs* old argument "That's DAoC" what do you mean? DaoC launch? 1.65? What???
If you mean 1.65, then this server is not for you, Uthgard even without SI is much closer to 1.65.

And seeing stuff like this regarding minstrels "In fact, I would say it should have its ability to charm pets completely removed and given nothing in return." Kinda makes me suspect "That's DAoC" is a line used when people suggest things you (and most who use that line as some sort of argument) don't agree with.

What I mean, oh so obviously, is DAOC at the point where everyone is trying to emulate it. Otherwise, everything else you said either doesn't apply or doesn't make sense. Slam has never been a "win all" style by any measure for any classes. But removing it or modifying it would render, for example, the scout, unplayable. That'd be like taking buffs away from rangers and capping offhand swings at around 20% just because for some reason and I'm a dev who doesn't like rangers. Or whining because hunter pets interrupt and taking away their speed and self buffs. Archery is already pretty much useless, you have to be a moron to die to arrows. I don't think any decent player has been crit shot or died to a solo archer firing arrows since 2002 under classic rules.

LOL.... do you even believe what you say?
Sun 6 Jan 2019 4:08 PM by Druth
Salviati wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Jan 2019 12:53 PM
What I mean, oh so obviously, is DAOC at the point where everyone is trying to emulate it. Otherwise, everything else you said either doesn't apply or doesn't make sense. Slam has never been a "win all" style by any measure for any classes. But removing it or modifying it would render, for example, the scout, unplayable. That'd be like taking buffs away from rangers and capping offhand swings at around 20% just because for some reason and I'm a dev who doesn't like rangers. Or whining because hunter pets interrupt and taking away their speed and self buffs. Archery is already pretty much useless, you have to be a moron to die to arrows. I don't think any decent player has been crit shot or died to a solo archer firing arrows since 2002 under classic rules.

First of all, Uthgard is very different from Phoenix, and yet they both emulate the same rough vision.
So again, "That's DaoC" is a poor argument because the 3 main avail forms of DaoC AND the DaoC through different patches are all wastly different.

And if we stick to Freeshards either you prefer Uthgard and it's 1.65 with all the good and bad, or Phoenix and it's "modded" 1.65 version.
If you prefer the former, I am not sure why you play here, and if you prefer the later "That's DaoC" has absolutely no value.


And regarding scouts, keeping bad designed skills for the sake of one or a few classes is a poor decision.
If archers are bad, try to fix archers don't defend bad skills that favours one single archer out of three.
Sun 6 Jan 2019 4:54 PM by Salviati
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Jan 2019 3:06 PM
Salviati wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Jan 2019 12:53 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Dec 2018 12:04 PM
So was perma stun/mez/root, until they changed it. So was unlimited +% casting speed/damage/spell pierce, until they changed it (yes that is ToA, but if the server had been just one patch further we'd have that).

DaoC, to me, is a game that rewards good plays, slam is both a bad design and bad balance that rewards spamming the same style.
Bad design because it's a full skill line that has one "win all" style, compared to pretty much every other skill line in the entire game, across all classes, that requires you to pick the right style for the job.
Bad balance because it's also the best stun style in the game and it's not given to all classes, some who in return has really crap melee stuns (both crap conditions and crap duration).

If you want to use the *sighs* old argument "That's DAoC" what do you mean? DaoC launch? 1.65? What???
If you mean 1.65, then this server is not for you, Uthgard even without SI is much closer to 1.65.

And seeing stuff like this regarding minstrels "In fact, I would say it should have its ability to charm pets completely removed and given nothing in return." Kinda makes me suspect "That's DAoC" is a line used when people suggest things you (and most who use that line as some sort of argument) don't agree with.

What I mean, oh so obviously, is DAOC at the point where everyone is trying to emulate it. Otherwise, everything else you said either doesn't apply or doesn't make sense. Slam has never been a "win all" style by any measure for any classes. But removing it or modifying it would render, for example, the scout, unplayable. That'd be like taking buffs away from rangers and capping offhand swings at around 20% just because for some reason and I'm a dev who doesn't like rangers. Or whining because hunter pets interrupt and taking away their speed and self buffs. Archery is already pretty much useless, you have to be a moron to die to arrows. I don't think any decent player has been crit shot or died to a solo archer firing arrows since 2002 under classic rules.

LOL.... do you even believe what you say?

Uh, yeah... ?
Sun 6 Jan 2019 7:00 PM by inoeth
And donald trump is the greatest president ever? I feel bad for you man.
Sun 6 Jan 2019 7:55 PM by opossum12
Salviati wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Jan 2019 4:54 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Jan 2019 3:06 PM
Salviati wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Jan 2019 12:53 PM
What I mean, oh so obviously, is DAOC at the point where everyone is trying to emulate it. Otherwise, everything else you said either doesn't apply or doesn't make sense. Slam has never been a "win all" style by any measure for any classes. But removing it or modifying it would render, for example, the scout, unplayable. That'd be like taking buffs away from rangers and capping offhand swings at around 20% just because for some reason and I'm a dev who doesn't like rangers. Or whining because hunter pets interrupt and taking away their speed and self buffs. Archery is already pretty much useless, you have to be a moron to die to arrows. I don't think any decent player has been crit shot or died to a solo archer firing arrows since 2002 under classic rules.

LOL.... do you even believe what you say?

Uh, yeah... ?

I don’t know I killed a lot of players in slam, and I can tell you I really didn’t work hard for it. Therefore, while not being a 100% Iwin (because people could have purge), I’d consider it a 98% iwin.
Mon 7 Jan 2019 10:42 AM by Salviati
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Jan 2019 7:00 PM
And donald trump is the greatest president ever? I feel bad for you man.

WTF are you even talking about? Are you trying to imply that I'm the stupid one or something when you can't even make a coherent point or comprehend what you read? You can't even satisfy the basic criteria for a simple interaction with a person.
Mon 7 Jan 2019 5:18 PM by Druth
Salviati wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Jan 2019 10:42 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Jan 2019 7:00 PM
And donald trump is the greatest president ever? I feel bad for you man.

WTF are you even talking about? Are you trying to imply that I'm the stupid one or something when you can't even make a coherent point or comprehend what you read? You can't even satisfy the basic criteria for a simple interaction with a person.

Some people don't understand how to make constructive/civil arguments, ignoring them works best.
Tue 8 Jan 2019 9:22 AM by inoeth
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Jan 2019 5:18 PM
Salviati wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Jan 2019 10:42 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Jan 2019 7:00 PM
And donald trump is the greatest president ever? I feel bad for you man.

WTF are you even talking about? Are you trying to imply that I'm the stupid one or something when you can't even make a coherent point or comprehend what you read? You can't even satisfy the basic criteria for a simple interaction with a person.

Some people don't understand how to make constructive/civil arguments, ignoring them works best.

do i have to explain the obvious?
just take a look at reaver for example: slam+levi+levi+levi=dead now imagine reaver without slam or a reduced one.... it is abvious that the 9sec slam is an iwin for the reaver.

also scouts are not completly unplayable without slam, with 44 thrust you got a 27sec anytime follow up snare. use it! but yeah must be hard when ppl do not adapt and try to play the old slam iwin style and still spec 50 bow. LOL

arguments destroyed, slam has always been very strong and a game changer! that is also why mythic introduced new RAs with 5 min purgen and later slam got reduced to 5 sec. that was for a reason! you can deny the reality but you wont change it by doing so.
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