Archery nerf general question.

Started 12 May 2021
by Klasker
in Ask the Team
Dear devs, back in time when you nerfed Archer, you stated the following:

There are 2 potential ways the archer population reduction can go, the first one we'll try is a general damage reduction. If that does not have the desired effect these changes will be partially reverted and another round of changes aimed solely at archery assist will be tried

Did the nerfs of all Archer have the wanted effect? Or will we see your 2nd option at some point soon?

IT seems that it only increased archer groups, when will the 2nd option be tested?
Wed 12 May 2021 5:07 PM by Siouxsie
That ship has sailed, I think.
You can thank clowns like I Power Rangers I for creating the archery nerf in the first place.
Wed 12 May 2021 5:51 PM by Klasker
Siouxsie wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 5:07 PM
That ship has sailed, I think.
You can thank clowns like I Power Rangers I for creating the archery nerf in the first place.

I just think you can change it by doing smarte things.
Like a 1.4 sec debuff that reduce archery damage by 90% after each hit or something.
Wed 12 May 2021 6:02 PM by Astaa
It's an awkward thing to manage. Under nerf and archer assist trains kill stuff before anyone has any way to react. Over nerf, as it is now, and lone archers can't kill anything and are forced to group up and assist, so you end up with the same problem except lone snipers are useless.

We are at B atm. Virtually no difference to how it was before, but lone snipers are pointless.

It used to be that you could carefully select a victim, a guy on the outskirts of the zerg, a guy sitting, a lone guy joining the zerg etc and pick off the weak, people out of place as it were. Not any more, group or waste your time. I do the latter and always have

There is also the mechanics, I doubted the idea of damage changing depending on number of attackers when it was suggested, I just can't see how it would be possible.
Wed 12 May 2021 6:11 PM by borodino1812
Siouxsie wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 5:07 PM
That ship has sailed, I think.
You can thank clowns like I Power Rangers I for creating the archery nerf in the first place.

Unfortunately, archers have never found a decent spot balancewise here. Solo it is too weak, in groups it becomes quite strong. I don't see any solution really. Nerf the damage, and you can more or less give up being a solo archer, buff the damage and archer groups become very strong.
Wed 12 May 2021 6:36 PM by Klasker
Bigger issue i see is that several posts and question later, the devs seem to just ignore it.

Guess its time to roll a inf Max viper and poison stuff to death what a shamf and many many wasted hours
Wed 12 May 2021 6:59 PM by Astaa
Don't forget vanish when you're losing 1v1s!
Wed 12 May 2021 7:25 PM by DJ2000
It's not easy. Mythic had the same problems.

They turned all Archers into (technically) Spellcasters, and added a bunch of neat spells/abilities to the Archery lines.

The phoenix Team can't really do that with the current incarnation of the Archery system. They can only twist and turn the DPS numbers up and down, and maybe tinker a bit with available Bow speeds. Everything else would be a class-related change, that probably can't be copied over to the other 2 realms. (shield-BC-PF)

Astaa summed it up nicely :
Astaa wrote: It's an awkward thing to manage. Under nerf and archer assist trains kill stuff before anyone has any way to react. Over nerf, as it is now, and lone archers can't kill anything and are forced to group up and assist, so you end up with the same problem except lone snipers are useless.

The (general) consensus, as to what in general an Archer (or the specific scout/Hunter/Ranger class) should be able to do and what not, is also not really clear neither.

IMHO:
A scout should have more range than any other Archer, and also be the only archer to have access to a 5.5 Bow. (or an even slower SPD)
Some may agree to this, but there will be plenty to disagree, that's for sure.
Would this fix anything? No.

The problems with Archery are something that, i think , cannot be resolved by adjusting some numbers. Without further custom changes around the archery system this will be a never ending story.
Question is, is it worth it?
Wed 12 May 2021 7:53 PM by Sayuri
DJ2000 wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 7:25 PM
The problems with Archery are something that, i think , cannot be resolved by adjusting some numbers. Without further custom changes around the archery system this will be a never ending story.
Question is, is it worth it?

there not real archery system and that is the real problem, archery are considered like 2h and first thing that you can see it was elemental damage is how they upped the thing
Wed 12 May 2021 8:53 PM by Klasker
At this point im just waiting for a dev to comment something on the subject.
Wed 12 May 2021 9:00 PM by Irkeno
Honestly, nerfing archer assist damage would improve the whole server.

Archer groups a huge detriment to the game as a whole.
Wed 12 May 2021 9:17 PM by gruenesschaf
Archery damage will not see an increase. The status quo is for the most part where it should be. Even after the latest nerf, archer damage still has a small spec based custom damage multiplier when compared to before the buff.

We know that given the environment with no bb and spec af everywhere the resulting damage numbers are usually low enough to make the solo sniper style unviable. Our test with a noticeable custom spec based multiplier to offset those environmental factors has shown however, that the current status with annoying archer assist is preferable to stupidly deadly archer assist and as long as archer have stealth that won't change again.

It is conceivable that scout could at some point see some help in the melee department.

Sayuri wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 7:53 PM
there not real archery system and that is the real problem, archery are considered like 2h and first thing that you can see it was elemental damage is how they upped the thing

Please just stop. Unless you're sure about something it's better to say nothing.
Wed 12 May 2021 9:33 PM by Klasker
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 9:17 PM
Archery damage will not see an increase. The status quo is for the most part where it should be. Even after the latest nerf, archer damage still has a small spec based custom damage multiplier when compared to before the buff.

We know that given the environment with no bb and spec af everywhere the resulting damage numbers are usually low enough to make the solo sniper style unviable. Our test with a noticeable custom spec based multiplier to offset those environmental factors has shown however, that the current status with annoying archer assist is preferable to stupidly deadly archer assist and as long as archer have stealth that won't change again.

It is conceivable that scout could at some point see some help in the melee department.

Sayuri wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 7:53 PM
there not real archery system and that is the real problem, archery are considered like 2h and first thing that you can see it was elemental damage is how they upped the thing

Please just stop. Unless you're sure about something it's better to say nothing.

Thank you for the honest feedback.

Why not consider adding a "buff" on the target of a bowshot, that would reduce Bow damage for xx% and giving archers increased damage.

Why not let the scout be the badass with the Bow they used to be, atleast give them a chance at killing something.
Wed 12 May 2021 9:53 PM by gruenesschaf
Klasker wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 9:33 PM
Why not let the scout be the badass with the Bow they used to be, atleast give them a chance at killing something.

The scout was "the badass with the bow" only because of 4 factors:

1) Buffbot
Starting with SI ranger had access to pretty much the same bow speed, given that rangers have at least the same dex values but also access to dex self buffs it should be immediately obvious that the per hit damage of the ranger will be higher than that of the scout.
With a buffbot this inherent ranger advantage is removed, you can only be cap buffed regardless of where those buffs come from and further reduced by albs having spec af from the bb. Then you have to consider that rangers were mostly viable in melee which made them spec accordingly compared to scouts which usually went higher in bow and while it was rather useless it still gave a couple % more damage that could result in more sticker shock when you already hit cap anyways.

2) Spec AF
SI introduced spec af charges, those were incredibly uncommon in the unwashed zerg yet entirely common in solo / 8 mans. Given that pretty much every solo and 8man was charging it here and even many in the zerg started to do so as well, players simply min max more these days, we added it to the buff potion as a qol to avoid the hassle.

3) Templates
Most sticker shock scout videos are against untempted enemies, especially the popular ones around toa release against oceanus randoms while the scout already had +archery damage.

4) Relics
+20% to the damage modifier made hitting for cap much more likely.

These 4 things combined with faulty memory, e. g. just remembering the 20% damage relic numbers, is why there is the scout sniper perception / expectation and the 4 digit cap crit shots.
Wed 12 May 2021 10:15 PM by Irkeno
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 9:17 PM
Archery damage will not see an increase. The status quo is for the most part where it should be. Even after the latest nerf, archer damage still has a small spec based custom damage multiplier when compared to before the buff.

I'd hope you might consider nerfing archer assist dmg further? To discourage the scourge of zergy archer groups plaguing all forms of different playstyle on the server?
Thu 13 May 2021 3:29 AM by ExcretusMaximus
DJ2000 wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 7:25 PM
IMHO:
A scout should have more range than any other Archer, and also be the only archer to have access to a 5.5 Bow. (or an even slower SPD)

Aren't they already? I know Hunter bows aren't anywhere near that slow, and I'm pretty sure Rangers' are capped at 5.0.

EDIT: Nevermind, I logged onto mine and see it's 5.5 for Rangers as well. My mistake.
Thu 13 May 2021 3:37 AM by ExcretusMaximus
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 9:53 PM
.....

I absolutely love when you post like this, it is elucidating.

I wish you did it more often.
Thu 13 May 2021 7:53 AM by paqdizzle
Siouxsie wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 5:07 PM
That ship has sailed, I think.
You can thank clowns like I Power Rangers I for creating the archery nerf in the first place.

Then how come the guild PK didn't get animists, ments, elds, and/or bards nerffed? jk jk I hear you.
There are so many valable ways to combat against archery. I'm not sure why they got nerffed from the get go.

Evades (sure not everyone can)
DD procs on armor/shields (anyone can)
Shields/engage/block bots (several can)
Near sight (most meta's easily can)
Stealth Lore potions (anyone can)

The problem is the current meta groups(which is what the server is balanced towards((8v8)), the 8v8's don't see scouts as useful enough for said 8v8 fights. Currently the meta is: Speed, CC, Heals, Peels, Debuffs/nuke/dps. Hibs have 3 of those built into 1 class so it's easiest for them to conform to this meta style. Not saying their the best at it...... yes I am..

You see an 8 man of scouts, you know for a fact there is no Speed, No heals, No CC, no Peels, just raw DPS, on the flip side, if you saw an 8 man of warriors all assist 1 target, that target would get /q -delete -yes immediately too.. but nobody does that because the current build around the meta.

There are several classes where- if you had an 8 man of, and they all assisted, that target would gib. Since archers have stealth, this is supposed to be the balance factor as to why it's okay to nerf them. I for 1 don't care for the nerfs regarding archery(other than rangers- They never had bow damage comparable to scouts until self buffs were introduced a while back so when all archery got nerffed, they didn't really take the effects of said nerf as hard as scouts)
Thu 13 May 2021 3:23 PM by Pasa
all these current threads crying for a ranger nerf are so annoying.... it seems, that rangers are made responsible for the whole shit which is caused from Polemo leaving alb to mid -> alb without leader and not present anymore (what has this to do with rangers???). Mids are too stupid to reraid with mostly higher numbers than hib (again, where is this rangers fault???). I looked it up: the archery nerf was postponed on nov, 1st 2020...so we play like this for about 7 months now. I still remember how everybody was celebrating this damage nerf against us.... now they want us to get nerfed again... this gets old and ridiculous...it's all about their stupidity to use their brains and change their playstyle. The permanent ongoing events give the rest to server health regarding rvr-balance... this has also nothing to do with rangers. They have to ask themselves why archer classes, esp. rangers, are one of the most played classes in the event: it's because you can play them solo and be independant from random (autogroup) groups, where you get farmed from premades all the time..

Ibow and Delorina
Thu 13 May 2021 4:21 PM by Sayuri
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 9:17 PM
Archery damage will not see an increase. The status quo is for the most part where it should be. Even after the latest nerf, archer damage still has a small spec based custom damage multiplier when compared to before the buff.

We know that given the environment with no bb and spec af everywhere the resulting damage numbers are usually low enough to make the solo sniper style unviable. Our test with a noticeable custom spec based multiplier to offset those environmental factors has shown however, that the current status with annoying archer assist is preferable to stupidly deadly archer assist and as long as archer have stealth that won't change again.

It is conceivable that scout could at some point see some help in the melee department.

Sayuri wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 7:53 PM
there not real archery system and that is the real problem, archery are considered like 2h and first thing that you can see it was elemental damage is how they upped the thing

Please just stop. Unless you're sure about something it's better to say nothing.

my crossbow doing elemental damage when that happen just after you change bow damage, let's be honnest here
Thu 13 May 2021 5:10 PM by gruenesschaf
Sayuri wrote:
Thu 13 May 2021 4:21 PM
my crossbow doing elemental damage when that happen just after you change bow damage, let's be honnest here

That's the tooltip for the weapon itself which doesn't matter as the arrow / bolt determines the actual damage type, otherwise switching between the thrust/slash/crush arrows wouldn't make a difference.
Thu 13 May 2021 6:02 PM by Astaa
Yeah, all bows show elemental in the tool tip/icon info. It doesn't make any difference to anything...I can't remember if that was the case on live.
Thu 13 May 2021 6:16 PM by Sayuri
Astaa wrote:
Thu 13 May 2021 6:02 PM
Yeah, all bows show elemental in the tool tip/icon info. It doesn't make any difference to anything...I can't remember if that was the case on live.

first moment they did the change to bow it was clearly elemental damage, cant remember the tip of elemental damage yet but
Thu 13 May 2021 6:17 PM by gruenesschaf
Sayuri wrote:
Thu 13 May 2021 6:16 PM
first moment they did the change to bow it was clearly elemental damage, cant remember the tip of elemental damage yet but

Some ranged weapons have a melee damage type assigned, some an elemental and others even none aka essence damage. It just doesn't matter as it's not used, however there was no explicit change done. It is however possible that the client we used in beta didn't show the damage type but I kind of doubt that.
Thu 13 May 2021 6:29 PM by paqdizzle
Don't fully trust the tool tips. besides, doesn't Perforate Artery still say "Devastating" for it's damage?
Thu 13 May 2021 8:24 PM by Klasker
Pasa wrote:
Thu 13 May 2021 3:23 PM
all these current threads crying for a ranger nerf are so annoying.... it seems, that rangers are made responsible for the whole shit which is caused from Polemo leaving alb to mid -> alb without leader and not present anymore (what has this to do with rangers???). Mids are too stupid to reraid with mostly higher numbers than hib (again, where is this rangers fault???). I looked it up: the archery nerf was postponed on nov, 1st 2020...so we play like this for about 7 months now. I still remember how everybody was celebrating this damage nerf against us.... now they want us to get nerfed again... this gets old and ridiculous...it's all about their stupidity to use their brains and change their playstyle. The permanent ongoing events give the rest to server health regarding rvr-balance... this has also nothing to do with rangers. They have to ask themselves why archer classes, esp. rangers, are one of the most played classes in the event: it's because you can play them solo and be independant from random (autogroup) groups, where you get farmed from premades all the time..

Ibow and Delorina

Just to make it clear im in no way adviertising for a ranger nerf. I think they should roll back the nerf for All archers, but at the same time fix the current 8v1 assist trins from archers.

I think specing higher Bow should matter more
Thu 13 May 2021 9:20 PM by Astaa
Sayuri wrote:
Thu 13 May 2021 6:16 PM
Astaa wrote:
Thu 13 May 2021 6:02 PM
Yeah, all bows show elemental in the tool tip/icon info. It doesn't make any difference to anything...I can't remember if that was the case on live.

first moment they did the change to bow it was clearly elemental damage, cant remember the tip of elemental damage yet but

Point it, damage type comes from the arrow selected, not the bow.
Sun 23 May 2021 8:47 PM by Six
its not the damage, its not the ability to assist, its not the population, its not variance.....i could go on and on.
the problem is very simple and it has been for 2 decades, you cannot balance invisibility.

remove stealth and balance the game or just tell people to enjoy a broken old game the best they can. seriously after 20 years trying to balance invisibility it just feels insulting that we are talking about anything but stealth at this point. by the way this doesnt just apply to daoc, never have a seen a game with an invisibility mechanic that didnt cause huge balance problems for the entire life of the game, not to mention many of the games that come to mind had very limited stealth like a few seconds at a time or just makes you blurry yet still leaves you available for target.

daoc stealth on the other hand is dialed up to 11. everything in the game can be balanced with numbers, timers, spec level whatever... there is no number you can adjust to fix invisibility. by all means though keep avoiding the issue.
Mon 24 May 2021 12:03 AM by daytonchambers
I've tried 50bow. I've tried 50 weapon. At this point nothing matters for a solo ranger.

When I can crit open on an unstealthed sin, having every advantage at that point, and the sin rupts me with a charge while closing the gap and then beats me to death with his viper 5 not-OPness there is simply ZERO reason to continue unless I join a gang like every other archer has been doing
Mon 24 May 2021 7:15 AM by Talo
How about jumping interupts a shot. would be the first step into the right direction.
And how about increasing miss chance the higher the range and the quicker the shot?
Mon 24 May 2021 7:48 AM by Noashakra
Pasa wrote:
Thu 13 May 2021 3:23 PM
Ibow and Delorina

Oh no, people have enough of getting instant killed by people pressing one key.
Mon 24 May 2021 7:17 PM by Siouxsie
Noashakra wrote:
Mon 24 May 2021 7:48 AM
Pasa wrote:
Thu 13 May 2021 3:23 PM
Ibow and Delorina

Oh no, people have enough of getting instant killed by people pressing one key.

Let's be fair.. they only mash 2 keys: Jump and archery shot.
Hilarious how they complain about 'ranger nerf' when they are the ones that pissed so many people off with their play style.
Mon 24 May 2021 8:17 PM by tiarna
a little look at the 3 classes from my eyes. (all the number can be a little different, but im in office and this is what i remember)

i have all the 3 sniper char, best possible template and at least 5lx on any.

Ranger, , the great advantage is the size of lurikeen that make him hard to target in many situation, on stats side, easy to reach 250 quick then cap RF with a 5.5 bow with only 5 point in MOA, with selfbuff and DEX ra he reach easy 375/380 dex, over 400 with dex spec buff. BOW RANGE 2100 (good enough), his real problem is melee side, not enough points to increase melee side at a decent level and no way to evade a melee fight (sprint spell is not enough)
SNIPER is the only viable spec for me

Scout, , same bow 5.5, shield, then best defensive tools possible, stun and anytime root.. , no selfbuff, then he have only combi pot, this, on stats side, hard to reach 250 quick , need at least aug quick 5 or 6 and moa 5 or 6, with selfbuff and dex ra he reach 335/340 dex and over 400 if cleric buffed, but in general he have around 40-45 dex and quick malus from ranger and hunter, BOW RANGE 2200 (best range), in terms of damage, his sniper spec is at the same level of ranger if have spec buff, but even with pot buff the difference is not great and his damage is good,
GOOD SNIPER with great defensive tools, that make him very fun to play also in small stealth group.

Hunter, kobold is a good race like lurikeen, BOW 5.0 is the real problem of this class, easy to reach 250 quick only with selfbuff, no need of many point to cap RF, because 5.0 speed is really easy to 1.5 cap, with his buff and dex ra he reach easy 370/375 dex and over 400 with dex spec, BOW RANGE 2000 (BAD BAD u are always too far away lol ), melee side.. have the best damage of the 3 class.. and pet help too , lack of defense like ranger (sprint spell isnt good).
The class doest have and high bow damage output, bow speed and range are the worst, then a full sniper spec is not good like ranger and scout, probably hunter is best played hybrid or full melee.
HYBRID bow / spear for best results.

Conclusion, dont think another nerf to archery is viable.. another destroy the solo and dont solve the assist group problem.

honestly, i think scout is the better archer, no way, very high damage (like ranger), best range, best escape tools, absolutely the more fun to play, ranger his fun too.. until u need to use ur melee weapon.. and hunter is the worst archer due to range lack and bow speed, but have a good melee.

my 2 cents
Mon 24 May 2021 8:39 PM by inoeth
tiarna wrote:
Mon 24 May 2021 8:17 PM
Ranger, ,
SNIPER is the only viable spec for me

Scout, ,
GOOD SNIPER with great defensive tools, that make him very fun to play even in group.

Hunter, kobold is a good race
HYBRID bow / spear for best results.

Conclusion, dont think another nerf to archery is viable.. another destroy the solo and dont solve the assist group problem.


phew so much strange opinion here...

melee ranger is really strong!

scout is pretty much always really bad solo, but exaggerates in grp which makes me laugh about your statement he would be good "even" in grp lol

hunter is pretty much as you described even though i disagree on your race choice, i dont think kobolds brings much to the table anything other than some more dex. preferred hunter race choices are valkyn or dwarf tbh.
Mon 24 May 2021 8:58 PM by tiarna
inoeth wrote:
Mon 24 May 2021 8:39 PM
tiarna wrote:
Mon 24 May 2021 8:17 PM
Ranger, ,
SNIPER is the only viable spec for me

Scout, ,
GOOD SNIPER with great defensive tools, that make him very fun to play even in group.

Hunter, kobold is a good race
HYBRID bow / spear for best results.

Conclusion, dont think another nerf to archery is viable.. another destroy the solo and dont solve the assist group problem.


phew so much strange opinion here...

melee ranger is really strong!

scout is pretty much always really bad solo, but exaggerates in grp which makes me laugh about your statement he would be good "even" in grp lol

hunter is pretty much as you described even though i disagree on your race choice, i dont think kobolds brings much to the table anything other than some more dex. preferred hunter race choices are valkyn or dwarf tbh.

my post is focused on sniper spec and bow damage, then kobold is a good race in that sense , melee ranger for me dont have any sense, if i want a melee stealth.. i play an assassin not an archer..

on scout, i speak of small stealth groups.. and his utility in small group is great if u think what can do ranger and hunter (lot less of a scout)
Tue 25 May 2021 7:01 AM by Sepplord
i think that was their point

scout utility starts to shine "especially" in group, not "even" in group
Tue 25 May 2021 1:53 PM by tiarna
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 25 May 2021 7:01 AM
i think that was their point

scout utility starts to shine "especially" in group, not "even" in group

sorry my english is not perfect and sometimes i use wrong words, and probably i use a word instead another..

the correct phrase is:
GOOD SNIPER with great defensive tools, that make him very fun to play "also" in small stealth group.
Thu 27 May 2021 1:14 PM by Siouxsie
Hey Gruenesschaf --

Remember back when you removed the restriction of spec'ing higher in bow actually increases the damage?
Because a year or so ago, the common advice was: "You don't need to spec bow beyond 27 or 35". Did you quietly re-nerf the archery
damage so spec'ing higher makes zero difference just like it was a year ago?

50+21 (71 composite) bow -- 375 dexterity, 2000 weaponskill.. only hits reaver/minstrel for a whopping 355 now (regular shot). Crit shot hits for 650 (should have been 710 but yeah we know you nerfed the crit shot multiplier.

You know the problem here is the play style of a certain hibernia ranger guild. Why nerf hunters and scouts as well?
Thu 27 May 2021 1:59 PM by Dakkhon
I am totally confused on some of you guys experiences in rvr against archers. I have 4 archers. A scout RR7L4 I think (I quit playing him), 2 Hunters one melee and other ranged and a Ranger. Hunter melee is RR6L+ and ranged hunter is 5L+. Ranger is 4L+. I only play my hunters because they are my favorite here on phoenix. Scout was just lacking imo. I proved that to myself by fighting against them on other realm toons and it was so easy to counter them which is the main reason I quit mine. Its lacking the self buffs which would even out all of them imo. The ranger is great melee or ranged and so is the hunter. The scout.....just not an enemy that I have problems with. The damage is meh and the stats that I have on my temped Scout are the same as my hunter and ranger at much lower RR.

All in all I think no changes are necessary to archers save the scout. Take that crappy shield 45 style away (yeah so easy to get around unless they are running away for their lives) and give them self buffs like the other archers. Ok yes Rangers are at the top and they do have a slight advantage but I understand that its a delicate balance to nerf and buff. I do not think you can nerf one class or all for the sake of the one. Hunters are fine, scouts need self buffs and rangers are ok imo. If anything you should increase the damage. Its terrible on all of them and going 50 bow or even 45 yields nothing. Might as go to 30 and the damage would still not suffer to much.

End off the day they are going to do what they are going to do. We have all given our opinions and I guess they are reading ad maybe taking some ideas into account. I love the game to much to get all upset. I just drop classes and move to others. Shouldnt have to but I know the game of running servers. The devs are trying but there will always be bias and they will find their way into fixes, buffs and nerfs. That is the only issue I have but again what can you do? So I jump around to different classes that I never really gave a good go at on live many many many years ago and try and have fun. VW is my new class I am trying and its really fun. Not like live but the challenge is there and I enjoy it. Find what you enjoy folks and roll with it. Yes you may not be satisfied but it's DAoC and its free to play!!!!!

Ok thats my 2 cents folks. Good hunting, have fun and devs please before you start swinging that huge bat consider the many responses here and more importantly the types of game play they relate to. I think that is overlooked when......"Fixes" are implemented. It's hard and we know everyone will not be satisfied. All we ask is that upon completion and implementation of the changes all play styles are considered and changes reflect a well thought out balance. In the end I think most will be happy. Cannot please us all......
Thu 27 May 2021 2:00 PM by Sepplord
if you included the dmg numbers of a lower spec the answer would be obvious wouldn't it?
Fri 28 May 2021 12:46 AM by daytonchambers
Dakkhon wrote:
Thu 27 May 2021 1:59 PM
scouts need self buffs

Sure thing. Give them a line like pathfinding for them to spec in. Just like Rangers. Now decide what you want:

Slam and Stop, or that yellow D/Q buff at 40 spec in the line. Rangers have to spec 5 lines, you must do the same.

OR

Remove pathfinding altogether and revert the archery nerf, and now neither rangers nor scouts get self buffs. In all honesty it should have been like that from the beginning, 5.5speed bows and no buffs for scout/ranger vs 5.0bow and self buffs/charm/pet that the hunter gets in exchange for the weaker bow shot.
Fri 28 May 2021 12:58 AM by gotwqqd
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 28 May 2021 12:46 AM
Dakkhon wrote:
Thu 27 May 2021 1:59 PM
scouts need self buffs

Sure thing. Give them a line like pathfinding for them to spec in. Just like Rangers. Now decide what you want:

Slam and Stop, or that yellow D/Q buff at 40 spec in the line. Rangers have to spec 5 lines, you must do the same.

OR

Remove pathfinding altogether and revert the archery nerf, and now neither rangers nor scouts get self buffs. In all honesty it should have been like that from the beginning, 5.5speed bows and no buffs for scout/ranger vs 5.0bow and self buffs/charm/pet that the hunter gets in exchange for the weaker bow shot.
Fine
I’ll take the rangers dex/quick and DA(46)
45+ archery
15ish shield or 23 for rear style
Fri 28 May 2021 3:20 AM by easytoremember
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 28 May 2021 12:46 AM
Dakkhon wrote:
Thu 27 May 2021 1:59 PM
scouts need self buffs

Sure thing. Give them a line like pathfinding for them to spec in. Just like Rangers. Now decide what you want:

Slam and Stop, or that yellow D/Q buff at 40 spec in the line. Rangers have to spec 5 lines, you must do the same.
lol

Beastcraft:
AF(32,42) - DEX/QUI(30,40,50) - Forest Phantom(34,43)
Pet Summon(20,32) - Pet Charm(35) - STR/CON(Pet)(41)

Pathfinding:
AF(31,42) - STR(30,39,50) - DEX/QUI(29,40,48) - DA(27,36,46) - Forest Phantom(34,43)

Subterfuge [Scout]:
DEX(31,41,48) - DEX/QUI(32,37)
STR(35,44) - STR/CON(34)
{NameMe}(30,36,41,46,50)

{NameMe} is a self-casted bubble for a mob/guard removing your stealth via Uncovering. The difference between each instance of it is the max level mob it works against. It's more of a filler spell for a barren line.

Here Scout comes out with similar dex to Hunter but less qui with max spec which keeps the need to invest in MOA & aug QUI.
Because they get shield stuns, no Forest Phantom.
No DA due to DEX amount.
No AF due to the small CON boon.
STR's are necessary to avoid obseleting Blades.


I've always been against adding muh buffs to Scout because the suggestion was always 'just give them dex in the archery line' or 'put all archers buffs in archery instead', but making a specline is fine and cuts away from them having everything at once.
Fri 28 May 2021 9:54 PM by daytonchambers
easytoremember wrote:
Fri 28 May 2021 3:20 AM
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 28 May 2021 12:46 AM
Dakkhon wrote:
Thu 27 May 2021 1:59 PM
scouts need self buffs

Sure thing. Give them a line like pathfinding for them to spec in. Just like Rangers. Now decide what you want:

Slam and Stop, or that yellow D/Q buff at 40 spec in the line. Rangers have to spec 5 lines, you must do the same.
lol

Beastcraft:
AF(32,42) - DEX/QUI(30,40,50) - Forest Phantom(34,43)
Pet Summon(20,32) - Pet Charm(35) - STR/CON(Pet)(41)

Pathfinding:
AF(31,42) - STR(30,39,50) - DEX/QUI(29,40,48) - DA(27,36,46) - Forest Phantom(34,43)

Subterfuge [Scout]:
DEX(31,41,48) - DEX/QUI(32,37)
STR(35,44) - STR/CON(34)
{NameMe}(30,36,41,46,50)

{NameMe} is a self-casted bubble for a mob/guard removing your stealth via Uncovering. The difference between each instance of it is the max level mob it works against. It's more of a filler spell for a barren line.

Here Scout comes out with similar dex to Hunter but less qui with max spec which keeps the need to invest in MOA & aug QUI.
Because they get shield stuns, no Forest Phantom.
No DA due to DEX amount.
No AF due to the small CON boon.
STR's are necessary to avoid obseleting Blades.


I've always been against adding muh buffs to Scout because the suggestion was always 'just give them dex in the archery line' or 'put all archers buffs in archery instead', but making a specline is fine and cuts away from them having everything at once.

Spec Str/Con might be seen as a bit over the top, but without the DA it seems fitting for a more defense-oriented scout to have more health as part of that defense.

I like your uncover "bladeturn" idea, tho it may be a bit difficult to implement. That said, adding an offensive/defensive proc spell like a Reaver or VW that either does damage, procs a buff of some sort, or grants an endo heal or tap (like the sword of sorrow has) would add a unique boost without being too over the top.

Of course, this all assumes that this theoretical buff line is it's own independent deal, so the scout would have to decide where to invest their points.
Sat 29 May 2021 3:22 AM by easytoremember
daytonchambers wrote:
Fri 28 May 2021 9:54 PM
Spec Str/Con might be seen as a bit over the top, but without the DA it seems fitting for a more defense-oriented scout to have more health as part of that defense.

I like your uncover "bladeturn" idea, tho it may be a bit difficult to implement. That said, adding an offensive/defensive proc spell like a Reaver or VW that either does damage, procs a buff of some sort, or grants an endo heal or tap (like the sword of sorrow has) would add a unique boost without being too over the top.

Of course, this all assumes that this theoretical buff line is it's own independent deal, so the scout would have to decide where to invest their points.
They've got buffs set so that their buff amount matches the level you acquire them at. I thought lv30 was the buffpot equivalent so that's why the final d/q and s/c were given so early at 34 and 37.

Any reactive proc that did damage or certain debuffs would interrupt other archers and I don't know if you can have it go off strictly vs melee. Since VW has that style effect I guess it's possible. I figured an offensive proc would be the opposite- proccing with archery.
Sat 29 May 2021 8:28 AM by Astaa
Scouts certainly shouldn't get buffs, not with shield spec too.

Perhaps an either or choice, shield or buffs. But then you get into homogenisation territory.
Sat 29 May 2021 11:33 AM by easytoremember
Astaa wrote:
Sat 29 May 2021 8:28 AM
Scouts certainly shouldn't get buffs, not with shield spec too.

Perhaps an either or choice, shield or buffs. But then you get into homogenisation territory.
Playing around in charplanner using the other weapon as the buffs line:
[assuming RR5, shieldstyle Stop! is removed, and buffline has DEX at 31,41,48; DEX/QUI at 32,37; STR at 35,44; STR/CON at 34]


34 stealth - 42 shield - 40 archery - 37 buffs - 8 weapon
34 stealth - 42 shield - 36 archery - 41 buffs - 1 weapon
34 stealth - 42 shield - 44 archery - 32 buffs - 9 weapon
33 stealth - 42 shield - 35 archery - 32 buffs - 29 weapon
28 stealth - 42 shield - 45 archery - 37 buffs - 4 weapon
27 stealth - 42 shield - 50 archery - 31 buffs - 3 weapon
22 stealth - 42 shield - 45 archery - 41 buffs - 3 weapon

1 stealth - 42 shield - 43 archery - 48 buffs - 7 weapon
1 stealth - 42 shield - 50 archery - 41 buffs - 6 weapon
1 stealth - 42 shield - 41 archery - 41 buffs - 29 weapon
1 stealth - 42 shield - 36 archery - 41 buffs - 34 weapon
1 stealth - 42 shield - 35 archery - 41 buffs - 36 weapon
1 stealth - 42 shield - 40 archery - 37 buffs - 35 weapon

34 stealth - 3 shield - 50 archery - 48 buffs - 3 weapon
34 stealth - 35 shield - 35 archery - 48 buffs - 7 weapon
34 stealth - 25 shield - 50 archery - 41 buffs - 2 weapon
34 stealth - 23 shield - 50 archery - 41 buffs - 9 weapon
34 stealth - 29 shield - 50 archery - 37 buffs - 9 weapon
34 stealth - 35 shield - 47 archery - 37 buffs - 2 weapon
34 stealth - 31 shield - 40 archery - 37 buffs - 29 weapon
1 stealth - 29 shield - 50 archery - 48 buffs - 18 weapon

34 stealth - 42 shield - 16 archery - 44 buffs - 29 weapon
34 stealth - 42 shield - 22 archery - 41 buffs - 29 weapon
34 stealth - 42 shield - 27 archery - 34 buffs - 34 weapon
34 stealth - 42 shield - 27 archery - 48 buffs - 3 weapon
34 stealth - 42 shield - 26 archery - 48 buffs - 8 weapon
34 stealth - 48 shield - 1 archery - 48 buffs - 8 weapon
1 stealth - 50 shield - 1 archery - 48 buffs - 32 weapon

34 stealth - 42 shield - 35 archery - 31 buffs - 29 weapon
34 stealth - 35 shield - 34 archery - 37 buffs - 32 weapon
34 stealth - 35 shield - 32 archery - 41 buffs - 29 weapon
34 stealth - 32 shield - 35 archery - 37 buffs - 34 weapon
34 stealth - 35 shield - 35 archery - 34 buffs - 34 weapon


The point is demonstrating what you can or can't fit into one spec. Didn't bother including anything below 31 in buffs but with mastery of the arcane there would be a use for high 20's in the buffline too.
Sun 30 May 2021 6:09 AM by whitewolf253
Maybe this isn't optimal but on my Hunter (Rr5L8) I've gone 35 stealth, 27ish spear, 50 bow, 40ish beast, and it seems to work alright. Melee damage isn't great on it but if the pets up on the same target it's reasonable. I run a 5.0 bow and crit shot a lot of casters for around 800-850. I can't focus a 8 man grouped caster down but solo ones or ones in a smallman aren't generally a problem. Shield tanks are a problem, seems fair to me. I used to run 39 spear, 40 bow, 40ish beast, 35 stealth and that worked alright in a lot of situations but didn't seem to snipe people down as well. I solo most of the time, get plenty of kills.

That said, hunters at least definitely don't need a Nerf.
Sun 30 May 2021 4:52 PM by gotwqqd
whitewolf253 wrote:
Sun 30 May 2021 6:09 AM
Maybe this isn't optimal but on my Hunter (Rr5L8) I've gone 35 stealth, 27ish spear, 50 bow, 40ish beast, and it seems to work alright. Melee damage isn't great on it but if the pets up on the same target it's reasonable. I run a 5.0 bow and crit shot a lot of casters for around 800-850. I can't focus a 8 man grouped caster down but solo ones or ones in a smallman aren't generally a problem. Shield tanks are a problem, seems fair to me. I used to run 39 spear, 40 bow, 40ish beast, 35 stealth and that worked alright in a lot of situations but didn't seem to snipe people down as well. I solo most of the time, get plenty of kills.

That said, hunters at least definitely don't need a Nerf.
@RR6 I’d drop the bow to 45 and up the spear to 34 for the anytime

If the changes come in I’d base spec around 44 spear 35 archery
Mon 31 May 2021 5:27 PM by Sethor
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 9:53 PM
Klasker wrote:
Wed 12 May 2021 9:33 PM
Why not let the scout be the badass with the Bow they used to be, atleast give them a chance at killing something.

The scout was "the badass with the bow" only because of 4 factors:

1) Buffbot
Starting with SI ranger had access to pretty much the same bow speed, given that rangers have at least the same dex values but also access to dex self buffs it should be immediately obvious that the per hit damage of the ranger will be higher than that of the scout.
With a buffbot this inherent ranger advantage is removed, you can only be cap buffed regardless of where those buffs come from and further reduced by albs having spec af from the bb. Then you have to consider that rangers were mostly viable in melee which made them spec accordingly compared to scouts which usually went higher in bow and while it was rather useless it still gave a couple % more damage that could result in more sticker shock when you already hit cap anyways.

2) Spec AF
SI introduced spec af charges, those were incredibly uncommon in the unwashed zerg yet entirely common in solo / 8 mans. Given that pretty much every solo and 8man was charging it here and even many in the zerg started to do so as well, players simply min max more these days, we added it to the buff potion as a qol to avoid the hassle.

3) Templates
Most sticker shock scout videos are against untempted enemies, especially the popular ones around toa release against oceanus randoms while the scout already had +archery damage.

4) Relics
+20% to the damage modifier made hitting for cap much more likely.

These 4 things combined with faulty memory, e. g. just remembering the 20% damage relic numbers, is why there is the scout sniper perception / expectation and the 4 digit cap crit shots.

So, you are basically nerfing players of the archer class for smart gameplay? Coordinating high alpha damage is a common thing in MMOs. Think DAoC Midgard assist trains wielding 5.8 delay dragon storm 2h-hammers to instakill targets or Tempest fleets in EVE Online utilizing the high range and alpha damage of artilleries to plop enemy battleships. Instead of punishing the whole class, I'd introduce a penalty for stealthers running in a pack. I mean, even though they are stealthers, their stealth should significantly drop for when more than 3 or 5 are sitting on each other. You could even make it a gradually increasing penalty to stealth for every additional stealther in a specific proximity.

On the topic of powerful archers back in the old times:
=> Buffbot, agree.
=> AF charge, slightly disagree because none of our renowned RVR groups used it, but yeah it makes a difference.
=> Templates, agree, though cap templates was a general thing that differentiated randoms from more ambitious guilds. I remember our alliance on Dartmoor Midgard being so powerful because of wide access to high-end gear. Same goes for the age of ToA where we had achieved max ML long before random groups finished ML3. I profoundly remember my brother and I destroying a full group in Cruachan because of us running around with Skald + Shaman Duo full artefact capped gear and ML10.

The main reason for badass archer videos: ToA featured slower bows which significantly increased crit shot damage eventually leading to the one-shot videos most people remember. Albion and Hibernia had access to 5.8-speed bows and Midgard to 5.3-speed bows via Aithos, the ML1 Trial1 opponent. Combined with buff bots/self buffs, badabing badaboom.

On the topic of bow damage and a 2-handed bonus, one of the commentators is right. The bow was granted a 2-handed weapon bonus. The formula that used to come closest to live results was the following:

Base Damage at 100% variance mark =

EDPS * (your WS/target AF) * (1-absorb) * slow weap bonus * SPD * 2h weapon bonus * Arrow Bonus

EDPS = effective dps of the weapon

For base damage this is (clamped factor and weapon condition/quality)

For cap damage this is (clamped factor only)

Condition and quality of the weapon will affect effective damage in the following way :

Effective dam = Clamped Damage * Quality(%) * Condition(%)

The clamped damage is your maximimum allowed damage at your current lvl:

Clamped Damage = 1.2 + LVL * 0.3

2h weapon bonus = 1.1 + (0.005 x spec)

SLow Weapon bonus = 1 + ( (spd - 2) x 0.03)

SPD = listed weapon speed.

Damage Cap = EDPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD - 2) * .03) * (1.1 + (0.005 x spec) )

2h weapon bonus (note: when the weapon is a two hand weapon, the cap uses the 2h weapon bonus formula also.


Arrow Bonus =

0.85 for (light damage) Blunt Suffixed arrows
1.0 For (medium damage) normal arrows
1.25 for (Extra-Heavy Damage) Broadhead Suffixed arrows

To calculate the effects of relics, base character resists and realm abilitys that add resists you would perform the following calculation:

Effective DPS * (your WS/target AF) * (relic bonus) * (1-absorb) * (1-base resists) * (1-RA resists) * slow weap bonus * 2h weapon bonus * SPD * Arrow Bonus

Example:

Attacker has 2000 weaponskill, 65 composite bow spec, a 5.5 speed bow with 16.0 effective dps, using blunt footed flight broadhead arrows, has no relics, and is attacking a chain using target with 635 af, 20 character resist, 20 RA resist.

16.0 * (2000 / 635 ) * 1.0 * ( 1 - .27 ) * ( ( 1 - .20 ) * (1 - .20) ) * 1.105 * 1.425 * 5.5 * 1.25 = 254.8759937
Fri 4 Jun 2021 6:59 PM by inoeth
Siouxsie wrote:
Thu 27 May 2021 1:14 PM
Hey Gruenesschaf --

Remember back when you removed the restriction of spec'ing higher in bow actually increases the damage?
Because a year or so ago, the common advice was: "You don't need to spec bow beyond 27 or 35". Did you quietly re-nerf the archery
damage so spec'ing higher makes zero difference just like it was a year ago?

50+21 (71 composite) bow -- 375 dexterity, 2000 weaponskill.. only hits reaver/minstrel for a whopping 355 now (regular shot). Crit shot hits for 650 (should have been 710 but yeah we know you nerfed the crit shot multiplier.

You know the problem here is the play style of a certain hibernia ranger guild. Why nerf hunters and scouts as well?


355 regular shot on 27% absorb... wow
thats like complaining about PA does only 1k dmg...

imo thats far too much! 250 would be ok
Sun 6 Jun 2021 9:33 PM by Schaube
Reduce the Range !

Reduce the damage if a archer jumps while fire a weapon !
Mon 7 Jun 2021 6:11 AM by Astaa
Schaube wrote:
Sun 6 Jun 2021 9:33 PM
Reduce the damage if a archer jumps while fire a weapon !

Same with casters then please.
Tue 8 Jun 2021 1:10 PM by Schaube
Astaa wrote:
Mon 7 Jun 2021 6:11 AM
Schaube wrote:
Sun 6 Jun 2021 9:33 PM
Reduce the damage if a archer jumps while fire a weapon !

Same with casters then please.

DEAL !
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