NS RAs? - Phoenix Freeshard

Hello all,

I've just reached RR4L0 with my Elf Blades NS (44CS, comp 50 Stealth and Envenom, 39 Blades, 21 CD); which RAs do you suggest? I really need whatever would give me a possibility versus all the higher RRs stealthers roaming around. I was also considering not to take Vanish and use those points in something else.

Let me know your thoughts.

Thu 18 Mar 2021 12:43 AM by gotwqqd

Reroll for the event if you have the time and worry about what to get at RR5L5+

Thu 18 Mar 2021 1:29 AM by nerex

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Mar 2021 12:43 AM
Reroll for the event if you have the time and worry about what to get at RR5L5+

Can you elaborate on that? Which event?
Btw considering the pain that is lv up a stealther, I'd avoid to do it.

Thu 18 Mar 2021 3:03 AM by gotwqqd

nerex wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Mar 2021 1:29 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Mar 2021 12:43 AM
Reroll for the event if you have the time and worry about what to get at RR5L5+

Can you elaborate on that? Which event?
Btw considering the pain that is lv up a stealther, I'd avoid to do it.

Starting Friday
4 days long
You will EASILY hit 50 and surpass RR4
AND it is possibly the most fun for many people

I have been a very casual player during these events and usually making more than 1 character.
RR4 is pretty much a given.
Last event I reached one RR4 and one RR4.5 again no where near taking advantage of the hours available

Thu 18 Mar 2021 8:06 AM by Noashakra

Make another class at the event, 5L is done fast. Playing sins in the event is horrible and not that fun, except if you have a group of friends.
You can do :
Purge 3
Viper 1
Qui 2
Str 2
MoArms 2
Toughness 2
MoP 2

next RA you take viper 2 and avoidance of magic 2

Thu 1 Apr 2021 8:43 PM by Eckso

For Blade Shade, first things to get are Purge 3, Arms5, Quick 3-4. Your mainhand weap is slow, 4.2, so you need swing speed, and haste procs to hit fast enough to compete. Leave Viper for later.

Thu 15 Apr 2021 1:08 PM by SlowMo

Eckso wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Apr 2021 8:43 PM
For Blade Shade, first things to get are Purge 3, Arms5, Quick 3-4. Your mainhand weap is slow, 4.2, so you need swing speed, and haste procs to hit fast enough to compete. Leave Viper for later.

just a quick question: does the proc haste stack with the buffed haste?

Thu 15 Apr 2021 2:38 PM by skipari

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Apr 2021 1:08 PM
just a quick question: does the proc haste stack with the buffed haste?

no, highest will be active

Fri 16 Apr 2021 10:01 PM by Hypno

I recently started messing about with a low rr ns it's rr5/4 or so atm and i opted to go

Purge 5 (personal preference)
moarms 3
aug str 3 (240 str with 15 in at creation)
aug qui 3 (250 qui with 10 at creation)
Toughness 2

Still rough against the higher rr stuff with viper 5 but it's always an uphill battle at the lower ranks.

Sat 17 Apr 2021 4:38 AM by Rhox

Hypno wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Apr 2021 10:01 PM
I recently started messing about with a low rr ns it's rr5/4 or so atm and i opted to go

Purge 5 (personal preference)
moarms 3
aug str 3 (240 str with 15 in at creation)
aug qui 3 (250 qui with 10 at creation)
Toughness 2

Still rough against the higher rr stuff with viper 5 but it's always an uphill battle at the lower ranks.

This guy gets its...

Wed 21 Apr 2021 8:59 PM by inchaii

I went with these RAs for my NS @ R7

Aug Quick 3
MOA 5
Aug Str 4
Aug Con 4
Tough 4
AOM 2
Mastery of Focus 1
MOP 2
Purge 3
Vanish

Thu 22 Apr 2021 12:15 AM by Magesty

inchaii wrote: ↑
Wed 21 Apr 2021 8:59 PM
I went with these RAs for my NS @ R7

Aug Quick 3
MOA 5
Aug Str 4
Aug Con 4
Tough 4
AOM 2
Mastery of Focus 1
MOP 2
Purge 3
Vanish

Is there a spreadsheet or something you all use? From an outside perspective this, along with all these other suggestions, seems ludicrously arbitrary.

Like, I understand the concern with RSP spent per stat quantity gained, but is that strategy actually returning real value?

You're telling me that:

13 con (or 13 str)
5 str (or 5 con)
2% swing speed
3% secondary resists
3 eff spell level

is going to contribute more to winning an average fight than 35% poison damage? The chance of any of those stats getting you to a meaningful breaking point is infinitesimally small.

Please help me understand, because I'm currently sitting in a puddle of my own confusion. It is wet and uncomfortable.

Thu 22 Apr 2021 10:07 AM by inchaii

Magesty wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Apr 2021 12:15 AM
inchaii wrote: ↑
Wed 21 Apr 2021 8:59 PM
I went with these RAs for my NS @ R7

Aug Quick 3
MOA 5
Aug Str 4
Aug Con 4
Tough 4
AOM 2
Mastery of Focus 1
MOP 2
Purge 3
Vanish

Is there a spreadsheet or something you all use? From an outside perspective this, along with all these other suggestions, seems ludicrously arbitrary.

Like, I understand the concern with RSP spent per stat quantity gained, but is that strategy actually returning real value?

You're telling me that:

13 con (or 13 str)
5 str (or 5 con)
2% swing speed
3% secondary resists
3 eff spell level

is going to contribute more to winning an average fight than 35% poison damage? The chance of any of those stats getting you to a meaningful breaking point is infinitesimally small.

Please help me understand, because I'm currently sitting in a puddle of my own confusion. It is wet and uncomfortable.

It helps if you actually know the delve values of the RAs and not just throw arbitrary #s around
MOA5=7% attack speed
Aug 4 = 17 strength/Con ~60hp
Tough 4 = 100 HP
MOF helps increase the DD level + get resisted less often which is important since its a lv48 spell

You're talking about 35% poison damage, which would be viper 3 which ticks for 77 vs 57 dmg over 20 seconds.

So the real comparison is 100 increased potential dmg over 20 seconds vs 7% attack speed, ~160HP up front, slight increase in WS. As a squishy luri, I opted for this route instead of the dmg gains of viper. Obviously with my SB, I can afford to go viper 5 + toughness 9 given RR and LA mechanics. Again it comes down to personal preference, and playstyle. Majority of my fights are vs assassins where the fights can be over <20s so I opted for a little more sustain early on.

Thu 22 Apr 2021 12:20 PM by Magesty

It helps if you actually know the delve values of the RAs and not just throw arbitrary #s around
MOA5=7% attack speed
Aug 4 = 17 strength/Con ~60hp
Tough 4 = 100 HP
MOF helps increase the DD level + get resisted less often which is important since its a lv48 spell

The numbers I included are what you could remove to free up 15 points. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

I would get it if it was all those stats, but it isn’t.

Thu 22 Apr 2021 1:12 PM by inchaii

Magesty wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Apr 2021 12:20 PM
It helps if you actually know the delve values of the RAs and not just throw arbitrary #s around
MOA5=7% attack speed
Aug 4 = 17 strength/Con ~60hp
Tough 4 = 100 HP
MOF helps increase the DD level + get resisted less often which is important since its a lv48 spell

The numbers I included are what you could remove to free up 15 points. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

I would get it if it was all those stats, but it isn’t.

Thanks for clearing that up. Viper 3 is around 6DPS increase, either way you cut it it's not going to change the outcome of most fights and it's highly overrated especially at early RRs. You're most likely to win or lose based off RNG miss/evades/big spike crits than if you have viper 3 or not.

Thu 22 Apr 2021 6:14 PM by Magesty

inchaii wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Apr 2021 1:12 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. Viper 3 is around 6DPS increase, either way you cut it it's not going to change the outcome of most fights and it's highly overrated especially at early RRs. You're most likely to win or lose based off RNG miss/evades/big spike crits than if you have viper 3 or not.

I get that in an assassin vs assassin fight you are dealing with a lot of burst/RNG, and they will make up the majority of your opponents. Clearly you want to have a solid baseline of passive RAs to boost your combat stats comparatively. I'm just not convinced that you aren't getting some serious diminishing returns after a certain point-- especially with RAs like aug con.

With viper 3 once your poison sticks you're looking at an additional 100 guaranteed damage even if you die. Not to mention the matchups where you will be able to reapply after a full or nearly full duration. I see a lot of assassins in mirror matchups try to reapply if the fight is close and health bars are getting low. Say you've already gotten in 3 ticks by that point. If you reapply that is 160 total damage.

I'm still failing to see how

~5-10 wpnskill (extremely small chance to land an extra hit that otherwise would've missed/been defended, do slightly more damage over time)
~20 hp (two damage shield hits)
2% swing speed (almost certainly will not result in an extra swing that otherwise wouldn't have happened in a short duration fight)
3% secondary resists (1-2 damage reduced on poison/dot procs?)
3 eff spell level (1-2% resist chance on a 80-100 damage spell?)

Is better than 100+ flat damage that continues to tick even if you die first. For 15 RSPs the above stats contribute nearly no discernable benefit, especially in a 20-30 second fight.

Even if we are working from a thesis that 100% of assassin fights are versus other assassins, viper is useless, and the key to victory is surviving burst or delivering it there are better options that fit into this logic given the existing spec: {150 additional hp & 2% crit} or {100 hp, 5% crit, 4 con, 3 eff spell level}. Passive statistical RAs scale up in power over longer duration fights, and some of them, like swing speed, are only going to reach a meaningful breaking point (an extra swing) very occasionally when considered in small quantities.

Fri 23 Apr 2021 4:08 AM by tpugh1000

Magesty wrote: ↑
Thu 22 Apr 2021 12:15 AM
Please help me understand, because I'm currently sitting in a puddle of my own confusion. It is wet and uncomfortable.

Hypno wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Apr 2021 10:01 PM
Purge 5 (personal preference)
moarms 3
aug str 3 (240 str with 15 in at creation)
aug qui 3 (250 qui with 10 at creation)
Toughness 2

Still rough against the higher rr stuff with viper 5 but it's always an uphill battle at the lower ranks.

This.

Honestly Purge is your biggest deciding factor in terms of rp/hr.

If you wanna go fast and hard, rush purge 5.

If youd prefer to hide and camp your timers then yeah go lower purge but its a more boring way to play the game imho.

You need purge vs most classes (slam tanks, casters if you whiff or they purge, or minstrels/skalds for example and absolutely need it in most sin fights, so having it up every 5mins is really key.) that+ only using it when you actually need it, so its up even more often is probably the number one factor.

Or you can argue the paperdaoc on +50hp and 2magic resist whilst youre sitting in that slam that you shouldve been purging.

Cant take credit for spotting it, but YT comment: Not a single fight in Inchai’s latest vid was without purge up. Equally a few of the key swings in fights were because opponents didnt have purge up. No sleight on him, its not a bad vid, just very clear to see the importance of purge despite only speccing P3.

On Purge 3 that’s twice as much waiting around and 50% of the rps/hr vs P5, sure he’s going to try to get clips so maybe wants to try extra hard to get that occasional win against a higher rr but general gameplay P5 gold star.

Listen to Dom 👍

Fri 23 Apr 2021 4:41 AM by Magesty

I don’t think anyone is going to argue about purge being vital.

Purge 5 is an interesting question because it isn’t a matter of a few stats. Like viper 3, that is 15 points, and if you’re missing the damage/health you need to edge out fights when your opponents also have purge up is it really worth the investment?

Most of the time their 15 point investment is going to directly counter your 30 point investment. I’d imagine the occasions where you fight someone for a second time in that 5m window it is really nice.

The uptime is still hugely beneficial as you’ll be able to fight at your relative full strength more often.

Certainly a case to be made for it, but I think there are some clear downsides as well.

Fri 23 Apr 2021 10:55 AM by tpugh1000

Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Apr 2021 4:41 AM
Purge 5 is an interesting question because it isn’t a matter of a few stats. Like viper 3, that is 15 points, and if you’re missing the damage/health you need to edge out fights when your opponents also have purge up is it really worth the investment?

Unless youre camping timers youre gonna have double (maybe more) opportunities to win fights as P5 vs P3 which will be able to take you from 5k/hr to 10k/hr and easily get you to R7 where u can really start growing as a sin. Fringe cases shouldnt be the focus of an RA spec.

It sounds like you might have a preference in your head? But either of these two extremes will work, as will a middle ground.

But what can be agreed is rushing viper early is actually detrimental. You forget viper can be negated by a resist and it has to be applied by hitting, and again after a purge. All these directly lower the gains made by viper in a lot of different ways. Whereas passives and purge are always constant boons.

Fri 23 Apr 2021 12:20 PM by Magesty

You’re assuming a couple of things that might not be true. First of all, you aren’t guaranteed to be getting clean, winnable fights every five minutes. This should be obvious to anyone who solos. Secondly, purge isn’t necessarily going to be the difference in winning versus losing when you do get a fight. On top of that, you are immediately at a statistical disadvantage assuming your opponent also has purge, which is fairly likely given the short timer on even P3 and the propensity of some players to avoid fights while timers are down.

I used viper as an example to show the potential damage/statistical value of the 15 point difference (P5 vs an enemy who uses P3). I’m in no way advocating for that being the best option at low RRs.

I’m inclined to agree that purge 5 seems like a solid option, especially if you play at EU prime time. I’m just not sure I can get 100% on board with an argument that assumes perfect conditions as a given and then dismisses detractions (which weren’t even being argued for) because of something like resist rates on a level 50 ability.

Fri 23 Apr 2021 3:43 PM by stewbeedoo

Without purge you will have little chance of winning vs classes that can stun/mezz/root you - which covers most classes.

I agree that in a Sin vs Sin fight if both have purge then it is somewhat irrelevant. Although the better re-poisoner gets a little advantage there.

Fri 23 Apr 2021 4:32 PM by Irkeno

Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Apr 2021 12:20 PM
You’re assuming a couple of things that might not be true. First of all, you aren’t guaranteed to be getting clean, winnable fights every five minutes. This should be obvious to anyone who solos. Secondly, purge isn’t necessarily going to be the difference in winning versus losing when you do get a fight. On top of that, you are immediately at a statistical disadvantage assuming your opponent also has purge, which is fairly likely given the short timer on even P3 and the propensity of some players to avoid fights while timers are down.

I used viper as an example to show the potential damage/statistical value of the 15 point difference (P5 vs an enemy who uses P3). I’m in no way advocating for that being the best option at low RRs.

I’m inclined to agree that purge 5 seems like a solid option, especially if you play at EU prime time. I’m just not sure I can get 100% on board with an argument that assumes perfect conditions as a given and then dismisses detractions (which weren’t even being argued for) because of something like resist rates on a level 50 ability.

Haha, of course, but purge can still get you a kill with an add. Hitting a caster and a tank slams you? Purge and get the finisher for example... and then die anyway. Purge is incredibly useful for those kinds of scenarios as well, probably another + point.

What would your preference be for RAs?

Tue 27 Apr 2021 9:02 AM by inoeth

imo p3-4 is enough unless you are rr10+ and also have all the dmg tools. in assassin fights it is important to deal more dmg than your opponent. purge does no dmg.
and especially as a low rr you want to win fights in the first place and therefore need dmg.

on my sb i eat lowies even if they stun me, i dont purge there because the dmg they do, i can survive.

my suggestion for rr4-5 is go go p2 viper2 quick2-3 moa2-3
dont bother with str or crit, the roi is very bad

remeber attack speed is king in this game

Wed 28 Apr 2021 9:33 AM by Noashakra

Purge 4 is a must, I have it as soon as RR6/7.
You don't deal damage when you are stunned (4s NS stun vs 6s on infi and 7s on SB, hello Aurora Borealis chain) or dead because of the triple dot of a SB.

MoP 2 and Str 2 are actually good for the DPS per point spent.

Tue 4 May 2021 12:07 AM by Hypno

Ra update for RR7L2

Purge 5 - Take fights faster
First aid 1 - Survive viper ticks after a win
Vanish 1 - Quality of life
Moa3 - Brings swingspeed to an acceptable level with haste proc
Qui 3 - for 250 qui
Mopain 3 - Self explanitory
Str 3 - 240 str raise base damage
Toughness 3 - Survivability
Con 2 - Survivability
2 points remianing

Killed alot of viper 5 low purge assassins since i posted my RR5 spec and will continue to do so

May rejig to drop str completely and mopain to 1-2 and raise toughness but won't be touching viper until rr9

Tue 4 May 2021 5:23 PM by Noashakra

Also the NS DD is str based!
MoM is good at 1 or 2 points also, it works on dot and the dd.
MoF 1 is also a must (especially for the single str debuff)

Tue 4 May 2021 5:28 PM by skipari

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 5:23 PM
Also the NS DD is str based!

NS mana stat is actually Dex, not Str

Tue 4 May 2021 5:51 PM by Noashakra

skipari wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 5:28 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 5:23 PM
Also the NS DD is str based!

NS mana stat is actually Dex, not Str

Sure about that?

edit:
https://darkageofcamelot.com/article/friday-grab-bag-01312020
It's dex, but I was sure it was str. Was it always like this?

Tue 4 May 2021 6:05 PM by Hypno

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 5:51 PM
skipari wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 5:28 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 4 May 2021 5:23 PM
Also the NS DD is str based!

NS mana stat is actually Dex, not Str

Sure about that?

edit:
https://darkageofcamelot.com/article/friday-grab-bag-01312020
It's dex, but I was sure it was str. Was it always like this?

Yea it's why on live when caster shades became a thing with increased spell damage templating in 10% spell pierce/10% spell damage you could nuke for 350-400 with very small variance very quickly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFaVDxvpKN4