stealth classes removal - Phoenix Freeshard

lately ive been hearing lots of ppl talking about how they dislike and how OP the stealth classes are .

So just being curious how many would like the removal of those classes,,

Pls no argument , just a plain answer would suffice .

remove or
dont remove

Mon 8 Mar 2021 9:59 AM by DJ2000

lately ive been hearing lots of ppl asking s.... questions in the Forums.

So just being curious how many would like the removal of those questions,

Pls no argument , just a plain answer would suffice .

remove or
dont remove

Mon 8 Mar 2021 10:01 AM by gotwqqd

lately ive been hearing lots of ppl asking s.... questions in the Forums.

So just being curious how many would like the removal of those questions,

Pls no argument , just a plain answer would suffice .

remove or
dont remove

Mon 8 Mar 2021 11:03 AM by WildWilbur

Hmm... Yes?

Nah, wait, wait, wait. No, perhaps?

Aaahhh can't decide...

Mon 8 Mar 2021 11:22 AM by Astaa

Make their trousers fall down if they miss PA!

Mon 8 Mar 2021 12:48 PM by Rov

Just nerf assassin envenom damage with viper or completly remove it
nerf vanish

And they should be on par with a lot of classes.

The stealthers grouping are still a problem, but will just have to live with that i guess.

Mon 8 Mar 2021 2:00 PM by Lollie

The problem is the way stealth is implemented here, perma stealth is just is too powerfull, regardless the class.

Mon 8 Mar 2021 4:13 PM by Magesty

A flat out removal of stealth classes is not a very good idea. The archetype of both the assassin and archer classes is massively appealing, and there is no reason it shouldn't be available.

Archers aren't great here. They have almost never been great in DAoC's history, so that isn't surprising. They are classes that are unintentionally designed to add/gang up that are nearly impossible to balance properly given they have decent ranged damage and perma invisibility. You just can't add power elsewhere in their kits without it tipping the scales too favorably. Modern games with proper design principles often have to avoid or gate perma invis due to the balance issues it can cause, and in DAoC it being paired with high ranged damage is particularly problematic. It's a bummer because it would be fun if archers were actually viable as a true solo option. Note-- I don't consider leaning on IP4+ something that makes a class viable.

Assassins are the main problem on Phoenix, and it is really a matter of them being over-tuned rather than the archetype being OP. There have been a few balance decisions over the past few years that have aggregated to create an environment that allows assassins to consistently over perform. It takes no more than simply perusing the video section on these forums to see that something isn't quite right. Low RR assassins easily defeating high RR "anti assassin" classes without even performing an opener. High RR assassins effortlessly dispatching multiple high RR light and heavy tanks in straight up melee combat. Generally, these things shouldn't be happening in a properly balanced version of the game unless the visible classes are poorly templated or making significant mistakes.

Mon 8 Mar 2021 5:37 PM by Noashakra

Lots of heavy tanks on those videos are garbo, a tank 5/6L+ should not fear an assassin in duel. Beaver made a video of him destroying RR8+ with his rr3 warrior.
Also, you don't make video of fights where you get destoyed, I would hardly call this proof.

Mon 8 Mar 2021 11:18 PM by Patron

What you think about a poisoned weapon swap guard when fightflag is on?
So sins need to fight the weapons they have equiped.

Mon 8 Mar 2021 11:40 PM by Babajaga

You all into drugs, right ?

Don't blame sins if you actually don't know how to play against them.

Some matchups are waste, some are just easy ones against them. and others are tough but you need to know the mechanics to win, using right procs, dont allow a 50dw front arc, opponent through you to land his evade stun, kite snare for 2handers for the next swing if they didnt snare poison (etc), get to it.

When people actually purge a ratfang and complain about how they are so OP makes me laugh, even my grandma don't falling into that trap.
L2p.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 3:08 AM by ExcretusMaximus

When this is the norm, there is an issue; a full fifth of the NA primetime population is stealthers, and it gets worse the later you go.

EDIT:
Added "primetime" to my post.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 3:18 AM by boridi

Magesty wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Mar 2021 4:13 PM
Assassins are the main problem on Phoenix, and it is really a matter of them being over-tuned rather than the archetype being OP. There have been a few balance decisions over the past few years that have aggregated to create an environment that allows assassins to consistently over perform. It takes no more than simply perusing the video section on these forums to see that something isn't quite right. Low RR assassins easily defeating high RR "anti assassin" classes without even performing an opener. High RR assassins effortlessly dispatching multiple high RR light and heavy tanks in straight up melee combat. Generally, these things shouldn't be happening in a properly balanced version of the game unless the visible classes are poorly templated or making significant mistakes.

??? Where are low RR assassins defeating high RR "anti-assassin" classes? I posted a bunch of videos of my high rank SB getting destroyed in the "Something needs to be done about assassins" thread

Tue 9 Mar 2021 4:11 AM by Magesty

Actually I vote remove

Tue 9 Mar 2021 5:22 AM by Briggins

People who want stealthers removed just can't cope with the fact that they have no idea what they are doing on their toons and want the game handicapped so that they can feel some sense of purpose.

If a high RR light tank is losing to a low RR stealther that is 100% user error.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:35 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Briggins wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 5:22 AM
People who want stealthers removed just can't cope with the fact that they have no idea what they are doing on their toons and want the game handicapped so that they can feel some sense of purpose.

I want them removed because they bring nothing to the game, their player base is toxic as Hell, and the health of the server is negatively affected by them because they destroy the food chain by being invisible. Like I said earlier, a full fifth of the RvR population in NA EST primetime is stealth, that's just not good for the game.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:56 AM by Briggins

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:35 AM
Briggins wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 5:22 AM
People who want stealthers removed just can't cope with the fact that they have no idea what they are doing on their toons and want the game handicapped so that they can feel some sense of purpose.

I want them removed because they bring nothing to the game, their player base is toxic as Hell, and the health of the server is negatively affected by them because they destroy the food chain by being invisible. Like I said earlier, a full fifth of the RvR population in NA EST primetime is stealth, that's just not good for the game.

Food chain? There are plenty of classes that can handle stealthers. I'm baffled people still dont understand this.

NA EST constantly has zergs, 8 mans, and small mans. I primarily play visible toons and never have issues finding group play.

Stealthers have always been part of the game, always will be part of the game. If you haven't come to terms with that by now, I don't know what to tell you.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 9:14 AM by byron

Just put a 5 seconds cooldown on the /switch command and problem is fixed, they will be forced to use only weapons that are in their weapon slots as it should be (but I think that for every class in the game)

Tue 9 Mar 2021 9:50 AM by Tashkent

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:35 AM
Briggins wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 5:22 AM
People who want stealthers removed just can't cope with the fact that they have no idea what they are doing on their toons and want the game handicapped so that they can feel some sense of purpose.

I want them removed because they bring nothing to the game, their player base is toxic as Hell, and the health of the server is negatively affected by them because they destroy the food chain by being invisible. Like I said earlier, a full fifth of the RvR population in NA EST primetime is stealth, that's just not good for the game.

Don't ask what you can do for the game, ask what the game does for you. That's is a fun archetype to 20% of the server population.
Regarding the weird food chain argument: you want to force a big chunk of the server population to rather play visibles and become the bottom of the chain instead of avoiding being fed to small mans/8mans/zerg?] Also there is some sort of a food chain, all the coast guarding randoms are feeding of said stealthers when adding.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 11:15 AM by Hangel

byron wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 9:14 AM
Just put a 5 seconds cooldown on the /switch command and problem is fixed, they will be forced to use only weapons that are in their weapon slots as it should be (but I think that for every class in the game)

this is totally no sense, all assassin always swap weapon from inventory and you can do it w/o switch command.. it's only easy to do... and I think if you wanna change the proc of weapon you can do it... considering that many time as solo assassin I fight more than 1 target together and I need to be fast on re put envenom or change the proc ... on this server with no speed 6 like live server you can solo only with assassin or speed class, all other are food for small/fg/bg.
I think 99% of the ppl that want to delete stealth class need to try to play one from 2L in solo before speak

Tue 9 Mar 2021 11:29 AM by inoeth

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:35 AM
Briggins wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 5:22 AM
People who want stealthers removed just can't cope with the fact that they have no idea what they are doing on their toons and want the game handicapped so that they can feel some sense of purpose.

I want them removed because they bring nothing to the game, their player base is toxic as Hell, and the health of the server is negatively affected by them because they destroy the food chain by being invisible. Like I said earlier, a full fifth of the RvR population in NA EST primetime is stealth, that's just not good for the game.

toxic like you when you lack arguments and call ppl stupid LOL

L2P

Tue 9 Mar 2021 12:21 PM by byron

Hangel wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 11:15 AM
this is totally no sense, all assassin always swap weapon from inventory and you can do it w/o switch command.. it's only easy to do... and I think if you wanna change the proc of weapon you can do it... considering that many time as solo assassin I fight more than 1 target together and I need to be fast on re put envenom or change the proc ... on this server with no speed 6 like live server you can solo only with assassin or speed class, all other are food for small/fg/bg.
I think 99% of the ppl that want to delete stealth class need to try to play one from 2L in solo before speak

It is easier and faster, and assassins are the class with more benefit using it. You want to swap the weapon from the inventory ? Ok, open the inventory and manual swap it. Just a command to do it gives assasing to much power since the dots/different effects on them.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 12:39 PM by WildWilbur

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:35 AM
I want them removed because they bring nothing to the game, their player base is toxic as Hell, and the health of the server is negatively affected by them because they destroy the food chain by being invisible. Like I said earlier, a full fifth of the RvR population in NA EST primetime is stealth, that's just not good for the game.

"A day without laughter is a day wasted!" (Lord Voldemort)

Tue 9 Mar 2021 12:53 PM by Hangel

byron wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 12:21 PM
Hangel wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 11:15 AM
this is totally no sense, all assassin always swap weapon from inventory and you can do it w/o switch command.. it's only easy to do... and I think if you wanna change the proc of weapon you can do it... considering that many time as solo assassin I fight more than 1 target together and I need to be fast on re put envenom or change the proc ... on this server with no speed 6 like live server you can solo only with assassin or speed class, all other are food for small/fg/bg.
I think 99% of the ppl that want to delete stealth class need to try to play one from 2L in solo before speak

It is easier and faster, and assassins are the class with more benefit using it. You want to swap the weapon from the inventory ? Ok, open the inventory and manual swap it. Just a command to do it gives assasing to much power since the dots/different effects on them.

Let's delete macro assist bro, is easy to target with macro instead of mouse target and caster get better benefit with it...
Anyway bro let's try to inc 2 3 target together, put positional and reactive style, think what poison or proc to use and than open inventory and change weapon...

Tue 9 Mar 2021 1:20 PM by Solong

how about no

most stealther dont like to fight champs or Minstrel or Necro too.. do we ask for remove them?

Tue 9 Mar 2021 1:36 PM by byron

Hangel wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 12:53 PM
Let's delete macro assist bro, is easy to target with macro instead of mouse target and caster get better benefit with it...
Anyway bro let's try to inc 2 3 target together, put positional and reactive style, think what poison or proc to use and than open inventory and change weapon...

No problem for me but the difference is that the assist command was in Daoc since the beginning, while the /switching command not, it is only in this server. The second command helps assassing to use a lot of weapons with different effects without any negative side so it increases their effectinvess. About fighting a lot of players togheter is something in common to all, don't see it as justification.
But you know when there are some changes for other classes is something like : "this is a flavoured classic server !!! These changes are not on classic !!!", but when improvements are for the class you play, everything is good....

Tue 9 Mar 2021 1:47 PM by inoeth

byron wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 1:36 PM
Hangel wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 12:53 PM
Let's delete macro assist bro, is easy to target with macro instead of mouse target and caster get better benefit with it...
Anyway bro let's try to inc 2 3 target together, put positional and reactive style, think what poison or proc to use and than open inventory and change weapon...

No problem for me but the difference is that the assist command was in Daoc since the beginning, while the /switching command not, it is only in this server. The second command helps assassing to use a lot of weapons with different effects without any negative side so it increases their effectinvess. About fighting a lot of players togheter is something in common to all, don't see it as justification.
But you know when there are some changes for other classes is something like : "this is a flavoured classic server !!! These changes are not on classic !!!", but when improvements are for the class you play, everything is good....

you act like /switch was only available to assassins, which is in fact not the case.
i would be totally ok with removing this command, but let me tell you this wont change anything. ppl did and will still switch weapons!
ok to be fair, there will be a change: casuals who do not have three hands or not willing to do all the manual switching, will have a harder time vs those who do.
/switch just makes it easier for not so dedicated ppl, do you want them to suffer?

Tue 9 Mar 2021 2:00 PM by thirian24

Delete stealth

Tue 9 Mar 2021 2:01 PM by byron

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 1:47 PM
you act like /switch was only available to assassins, which is in fact not the case.
i would be totally ok with removing this command, but let me tell you this wont change anything. ppl did and will still switch weapons!
ok to be fair, there will be a change: casuals who do not have three hands or not willing to do all the manual switching, will have a harder time vs those who do.
/switch just makes it easier for not so dedicated ppl, do you want them to suffer?

It is not only available to assassins but for sure their are the ones that gained more advantage with this command. Since people here wants to delete all assassing, delete vanish and so on... for me assasins are fine but this command is something abused by them since they can also put effects on weapons (other classes can't). Make this mechanism harder maybe will help to balance the situation. It is just an idea.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 2:33 PM by Esotosed

A lot of you speak with the luxury of free time, must be nice.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 2:52 PM by Hangel

Well bro try to follow my thinking... forgot u ask to delete a command only because there is a class that have more benefit than other...

Light tank have a double dps than assassin and need only to spam 1 style to do it, they don t NEED to change weapon
Assassin need to change 6 or more weapon in 1 inc to win it vs a class that make x2 dps, most of time with better armor + IP

And you want to nerf this class that need to switch many weapon and not the one that make double damage with 1 anytime?

Tue 9 Mar 2021 3:05 PM by soremir

The population is definitely skewed more and more skewed towards stealthers now.

The only thing I really don't understand is the attitude of "stealthers have always been like this in DAOC, we can't change them - L2P gitgud", when the Devs have made adjustments on tonnes of other class abilities, RAs, and even nerfed whole spec lines when they have become disruptive for other players. I don't see why it should be any different for different elements of the assassin abilities (vanish is the one that's always on my mind). I'm not even really commenting on whether or not it's needed, but large changes and rebalancing on assassins (and another plug for vanish nerf) should 100% be on the table and seriously considered by the Devs, and ideally, responded to at least.

To be fair, the arena is opening for 1v1. Maybe this is what it's about, and maybe they will be evaluating if a rebalancing is required. I am certainly open to the idea that that is what is happening, and if they and the Secret Council of Madness take a serious look at the 1v1 balance through that mechanism, that is something at least.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 3:22 PM by ptitbiscuit

yall wanna nerf Vanish when its already on a 15min timer ? OK lol.
Vanish is the only helpful toy a stealth has to evade from a fight where he gets zerged, 2V1 3V1 ++++ and once again its every 15Mins ! like ok if the guy wait for vanish thats roughly 4 fights in 1 hr ? so 4Krps/h ? wow omg stealth is soo farming, the truth is no vanish = get zerged more, and thats why u dont want it, because it allows someone to escape the zerg and you dont get your 8V1 rps , how sad. Vanish is fine where it stands whats the nerf make it 30min timers ? yea ok...
for me its just sad that even once every 8V1 stealth evades it and still get people to qq over 200 rps..

Cya outthere

Tue 9 Mar 2021 3:45 PM by Hangel

And to be honest I don t understand the problem with assassin... (I mean solo assassin and not FG)

vs skald: snare/mezz/sos
vs: bard - sos
vs: tank 40% vs 60% to die
vs light tank: 20% vs 80% to die
vs champion and vw: near the impossible if not noob
vs archer: 80% - 20%
vs assassin 50% -50%
vs thane 40% - 60% to die
vs caster 70 - 30% - 0% if moc
vs bd necro 30 - 70%

Vanish as said is only way to escape from zerg, and we have no IP...

so for you I need to play an assassin, w/o IP - I need t switch envenom (main dps) by hand from inventory and with a vanish nerfed - versus a tank with 3000 hp and ip5? ahahahah

Tue 9 Mar 2021 3:54 PM by byron

Hangel wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 2:52 PM
Well bro try to follow my thinking... forgot u ask to delete a command only because there is a class that have more benefit than other...

Light tank have a double dps than assassin and need only to spam 1 style to do it, they don t NEED to change weapon
Assassin need to change 6 or more weapon in 1 inc to win it vs a class that make x2 dps, most of time with better armor + IP

And you want to nerf this class that need to switch many weapon and not the one that make double damage with 1 anytime?

yeah but assassins should not be able to win against everybody. If you meet a light or heavy tank specced for solos (you mentioned IP so...) , it would quite right that assasin has an high chance to release, especially if they have similar realm level. But at the moment it is not.
Btw at the beginning you said that /switch command is only for noobs and don't change so much if it will be removed or changed but, reading your answers, I can understand that maybe I hitted the target

Tue 9 Mar 2021 4:16 PM by Hangel

I think you are confused, I never said switch is for noob, some other may be said if you delete this command you penalize some assassin not pratic to switch from inventory... so noob assassin will play bad than good one... but they will change weapon anyway but harder.

But anyway I don t still understand you because if you are spec to solo you can win assassin with many classes (tank, light tank, many hybrid, and some caster with moc or bd or necro). And if you are not spec to solo just run with your friend, assassin will be not a problem for your fg no?

This command was good for your light tank to change shield instant for stun, but for assassin is not good lol...

Anyway for me is not a real problem, I played assassin from 1st day of daoc 20 years ago, with manual switch, with magic poison and with switch command...the % of win and dead never change a lot...

Tue 9 Mar 2021 4:27 PM by utaz

Assassins had their fun.. it's time to hit it with a balance hammer finally.
Simply cant have 1/3 or 1/4 of population on stealthers.

Reduce viper damage %
Increase vanish timer to 30m or 1h.
Make vanish delay as purge 1. - you vanish, it counts 5secs then vanishes.
Increase the range on Stealth Lore potion detection and make it 10 charges for example, so they get used more often.

Stealthers had their fun, it's time to cut it down a bit so we dont have 50% of population playing stealthers.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 4:37 PM by byron

Hangel wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 4:16 PM
I think you are confused, I never said switch is for noob, some other may be said if you delete this command you penalize some assassin not pratic to switch from inventory... so noob assassin will play bad than good one... but they will change weapon anyway but harder.

But anyway I don t still understand you because if you are spec to solo you can win assassin with many classes (tank, light tank, many hybrid, and some caster with moc or bd or necro). And if you are not spec to solo just run with your friend, assassin will be not a problem for your fg no?

This command was good for your light tank to change shield instant for stun, but for assassin is not good lol...

Anyway for me is not a real problem, I played assassin from 1st day of daoc 20 years ago, with manual switch, with magic poison and with switch command...the % of win and dead never change a lot...

I don't complain about assassins, they are fine as they are in Daoc since the beginning. We have solo assassins, zerg assassing, loyal assassing and "bastard" assassins....they are one surprise factor in the game. As you said maybe some beginners of this class will have hard time to win fights with some changes on the /switch command (the only not standard command in this server) and there will be less complains, you should look in a server perspective and not only on your personal gameplay. As you said, you'll be able to switch weapons anyway, maybe others will not and will roll another class after they will have harder time to kill someone or maybe not and nothing will change.. who knows. But since there is a discussion about stealth population since a while something will need to be done early or later (like in the past for rangers).
Then could be something else (RA's values and/or timers?) ,I don't know. We are just discussing, we are not GMs

PS: shield stun on light tanks is not something in Midgard ..... side stun neither for zerks

Tue 9 Mar 2021 4:48 PM by Magesty

The problem with assassins as I see it is more a matter of a number of things having been customized over time on Phoenix that end up shaking out in their favor, aggregating in an increase in net power that is just a little too much on average. Now, plenty of assassins on Phoenix are still miserably bad (as we can see from some of the comments in this thread), but the ones that are properly templated and spec'd are much more powerful than I have personally seen on any other iteration of the game. And it isn't even close. Below is a list of some of the items that I think are part of the problem-- remember, it generally isn't just one thing that causes imbalance in PvP games, but a collection of things and how they interact with the current meta. Perma stealth will always be a balance challenge, and I think a fair baseline to work from is that an assassin without using an opener should lose most of the time to a visible solo fighter all else being equal.

1) Free MoS freeing up RSPs for damage passives/vanish
2) Proliferation of healing mechanics that are debuffed by disease. This results in a net benefit for assassin players over non-assassins.
3) /switch command making it easier for players to abuse weapon swapping. Instead of being an edge case of abuse that some players took advantage of now everyone can easily.
This ease of use also reduces the effectiveness of purge against poison application to the point where there is almost no benefit from purging unless you know you can stun or
plan to immediately pop heals.
4) Weaponskill debuff instead of str/con
5) Proliferation of spec AF results in a slight nerf to classes that rely on physical damage and a buff to classes that have more mixed damage
6) Viper added with NF RAs. Part of the balance with NF RAs (ignoring buffbots) was that assassins got shafted with situational/assassin vs assassin oriented RR5 abilities.
Puzzlingly, no one gets RR5 abilities here despite the shift away from OF RAs.
7) Ability to apply three DoTs while using snare poison/disease/garrote to kite while damage ticks/restealth.

I'm sure there are other items that I'm forgetting, but that is a fairly decent list of "custom" changes that have benefitted the assassin archetype specifically in comparison to visibles. Again, it isn't a question of massively nerfing, but rather toning down a couple of things here or there to bring them more in line with what they should be.

*EDIT* The only real problem I see with vanish is how many assassins abuse strafing coupled with vanish. I'm not sure I have fought one that hasn't seemed to have abused strafe. Vanish is a very frustrating ability to fight against, especially when the fight is close and you have used RAs, but it isn't that big of a deal if you have at least a small chance to find them afterwards.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 6:27 PM by Reklewt

I can understand that it's frustrating to see so many stealthers out in the frontiers, as opposed to other visible solo classes. I honestly think that's where most of this "nerf/remove assassins" idea comes from.

I play an assassin, this is my first one, and I honestly think that assassins have their advantages, and they have their disadvantages. You have to be VERY crafty on an assassin to beat light tanks, heavy tanks, and hybrids regularly. Try playing an assassin and inc'ing a mercenary, friar, champ, arms, etc, you might win some, especially after gaining some RR, but it's no walk in the park. Frankly, equal RR you usually lose unless you can successfully snare-kite, which is not always viable with the recent snare changes and just side-style hitboxes in general on this server.

Sure, we get to pick our fights (most of the time... keep in mind there are stealth pots on this server and I get chased down by people who caught a glimpse of me on accident all the time). However, we can't have it both ways. If you want visible solo classes to exist on this server, then they can't be run over every time they pop up on the screen. There are incentives to encourage this, like /tag, but still, solos get run over ALL the time here.

Personally, I love my assassin, but sometimes I want to play something else; however, a visible soloer, other than the skald I am making, is not really worth the time because I know it will be mostly frustrating. The answer is not to nerf assassins. I'm really, really tired of hearing about how vanish is "so OP". I don't even have it anymore because basically everytime I would vanish, someone would pop a stealth pot and kill me while I have a timer where I literally cannot swing...

I really think there is a disconnect between what it feels like to get ripped by an assassin (I get it, I've been on the other side of the equation, it feels unfair) and what it's actually like to play one. Sure, it's fun, but there are plenty of really tough fights. Earlier on in this thread, someone mentioned Beaver Cleaver's Youtube. That guy is a great SB, and almost every video he has on there is a video of his low RR warrior destroying high RR stealthers, just to prove a point. Give it a watch, it's pretty interesting.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:00 PM by Irkeno

Ever stop to think that there are so many stealthers on here because everyone adds everyone and it's the one semi reliable tool to avoid being added permanently 100% of the time, by everyone?

but you cant change the behaviour of a whole server not to add, so you're probably going to just need to deal with the amount of stealthers as a result.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:07 PM by boho

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 3:08 AM
When this is the norm, there is an issue; a full fifth of the NA primetime population is stealthers, and it gets worse the later you go.

EDIT:
Added "primetime" to my post.

There's something rotten in the state of Assassins (my gut says poisons are overtuned and rapid weapon swapping, which was less prevalent back in the day, makes it even worse), but this isn't a great example since you could argue stealth, while only represented by a few classes, is one of five broad archetypes.

If you want to see more structural issues, you want to look at individual class populations:

In this snapshot we can already see that song classes are universally more popular than assassins, but Minstrels, at 15.1% of the Alb population, aren't much more popular than Skalds, who don't have Stealth, at 14.7% of the Midgard population. That's not a statistically significant difference. However, Bards absolutely are significant, at a pathetic 8.1% of the Hibernia population.

My personal theories from these figures:
* Players consider song speed, not stealth, to be the most important component to gameplay.
Yes, song classes can do many other things, but many other classes can do those other things. Only song classes have song speed.

* Players have concluded song speed, not stealth, to be the defining ability in choosing your battles.
The same proportion of players chose Minstrel (who has stealth) and Skald (who does not). It's more important to go fast than be invisible.

* Minstrels and Skalds are the best option for players who want to solo.
When someone asks "what do I play for solo RvR," the kneejerk answer is stealth. It should be "Minstrel or Skald." When given song speed, players seem to forget they don't have stealth - otherwise we'd see Minstrel numbers way above Skalds. The truth is, stealth is second-best. Skalds and Minstrels also fill the "I want to group but be able to solo" player much better than the forever alone assassin or archer.

* Bards missed the solo train.
When it comes to soloing, poor Bards really got shafted. The song class's defining feature, speed, isn't in their Music (CC & Shout) spec. That means if they want to go fast (and players clearly do), they have to sacrifice in a way that Skalds and Minstrels, who have the option to just dump in Music and a Weapon and go, simply don't, putting Bards roughly a thousand skill points behind the starting point of the other song classes trying to solo. This has relegated Bards to a group role, and while they get an Endurance regen to make that role even more attractive, it doesn't seem to have worked (arguably QOL changes have made endurance regen less and less important).

So basically, if you want to really stabilize things, normalize movement speed first, since someone moving three times faster than you is clearly a much bigger issue than being invisible. Either cap bards at caster speed or add faster Horses.

edit: Note also that MMO design realized permanent fast movement speed for some and not others was a degenerate mechanic long before it realized permanent stealth was - World of Warcraft gave everyone mounts* and imposed severe limits on unmounted movespeed boosts but allowed two different classes - and an entire race - access to perma-stealth.

*Yes, EQ had universal mounts first, but they were bad and Bard speed still dominated with no restrictions.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:18 PM by Irkeno

boho wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:07 PM

My personal theories from these figures:
* Players consider song speed, not stealth, to be the most important component to gameplay.
Yes, song classes can do many other things, but many other classes can do those other things. Only song classes have song speed.

* Players have concluded song speed, not stealth, to be the defining ability in choosing your battles.
The same proportion of players chose Minstrel (who has stealth) and Skald (who does not). It's more important to go fast than be invisible.

You want to solo on this server, you either need speed6 + SOS or stealth+vanish, or the patience of a saint like Yarna etc who hide in very off meta areas and accept slow action and lots and lots and lots of being steamrolled by groups.

also funny that you call Bard popularity pathetic and SBs were about equivalent, with NS, Ranger and Scout all below it.

Other than that, you can moan about stealth, we can moan about being steamrolled by larger numbers endlessly, and we can keep this nonsense merry-go-round going for another 20 pages to fall on deaf ears as it does every time these pop up because unfortunately despite moans, assassins are in a good place.

I'd say almost every class if played and specced right is capable of beating a sin 1on1 (cue you throwing your hands up in anger and yelling how this isn't true.)

Stop shitting on solo visis and i guarantee you'll see numbers of stealthers drop.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:21 PM by boho

Irkeno wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:18 PM
also funny that you call Bard popularity pathetic and SBs were about equivalent, with NS, Ranger and Scout all below it.

In comparison to other song classes I mean. Though it obviously shifts throughout the day.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:32 PM by Magesty

Shouldn't any analysis of class population as it pertains to this conversation take into account different styles of play? Speed classes all have a permanent role in 8v8 groups.

Subtracting bard numbers from minstrel and skald would perhaps give a better idea of how many of those are actually soloing.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 8:51 PM by boho

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 7:32 PM
Shouldn't any analysis of class population as it pertains to this conversation take into account different styles of play? Speed classes all have a permanent role in 8v8 groups.

Subtracting bard numbers from minstrel and skald would perhaps give a better idea of how many of those are actually soloing.

My conclusion was roughly half of Minstrels/Skalds were solo in that dataset because Bard (who essentially can’t solo) was around half their per capita. That puts my guess at solo bards alongside Assassins, which are almost certainly solo.

The big point from this dataset was Minstrel vs Skald. Yes, stealth is good, and yes, permastealth is a degenerate mechanic, but if Stealth is so good, why aren’t Minstrels significantly more popular than Skalds? Let’s not pretend that “realm pride” is a significant factor for soloers, or that bandwagon chasing isn’t. I think there’s a population of people who just prefer stealth gameplay, but I also think a large portion are solo players who either jumped or were ushered onto the wrong bandwagon. Speed is more important, and more unbalancing, than stealth.

Tue 9 Mar 2021 11:33 PM by Magesty

boho wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 8:51 PM
My conclusion was roughly half of Minstrels/Skalds were solo in that dataset because Bard (who essentially can’t solo) was around half their per capita. That puts my guess at solo bards alongside Assassins, which are almost certainly solo.

The big point from this dataset was Minstrel vs Skald. Yes, stealth is good, and yes, permastealth is a degenerate mechanic, but if Stealth is so good, why aren’t Minstrels significantly more popular than Skalds? Let’s not pretend that “realm pride” is a significant factor for soloers, or that bandwagon chasing isn’t. I think there’s a population of people who just prefer stealth gameplay, but I also think a large portion are solo players who either jumped or were ushered onto the wrong bandwagon. Speed is more important, and more unbalancing, than stealth.

I agree that the way speed is handled in DAoC is problematic from a balance perspective, but I'm not sure the conclusion you are drawing regarding Minstrels takes into account two fairly important factors.

First, given the Minstrel's kit, a high level pet is far more meaningful to their performance than stealth. Minstrels benefit very little from stealth when it comes to combat, especially if it means trading off a pet. If a Minstrel were to choose to stealth instead of using charm they would quickly find themselves in unfavorable melee matchups against assassins where the path to victory involves the same cheesy playstyle they would engage in as a visible only now they don't have a pet. Perhaps one could even argue that if assassins were a little bit less powerful you might see solo Minstrels dipping their toes into stealth, but I doubt it.

Secondly, in order to spec for stealth the Minstrel has to make some pretty major sacrifices that would inhibit their ability to engage in any playstyle outside of what would either be a worse version of soloing compared to the non-stealth spec or stealth zerging.

Minstrels don't choose speed over stealth because those two things exist in a vacuum and speed is clearly better. They choose speed over stealth because they are more powerful with a pet and can engage in more forms of PvP without respeccing.

I don't even really care about the argument for or against speed-- I am just not sure you are making any cogent points with your analysis. Speed is problematic. Stealth is problematic. I think trying to compare the two directly with your methodology is a tenuous proposition at best.

Wed 10 Mar 2021 6:14 AM by Sepplord

boho wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 8:51 PM
but if Stealth is so good, why aren’t Minstrels significantly more popular than Skalds?

It's not like minstrel have specced stealth just incorporated into their speccs...they have to make heavy sacrifices for it.
And the pet, a major contribution to minstrels' combat ability doesn't stealth, so it cannot effectively be combined with a stealth-spec
Minstrels don't have their "package" and then have to decide between stealth or speed.

And even if you want to go full stealth minstrel, you don't have a spec that has high DPS. You are then a very strong utility-class in stealthzergs against counterparts in the other realms that don't have that option at all...but you are still pidgeonholed into grouping with other stealthers

Wed 10 Mar 2021 7:20 AM by Blitze

The biggest reason that there are so many stealths is because the server is toxic towards visi-soloers.

That’s it... that’s the root problem.

Therefore, If you make visi-soloing less grim, people won’t choose stealth as regularly.

(That /tag command didn’t work,)

Wed 10 Mar 2021 7:53 AM by inoeth

Blitze wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Mar 2021 7:20 AM
The biggest reason that there are so many stealths is because the server is toxic towards visi-soloers.

That’s it... that’s the root problem.

Therefore, If you make visi-soloing less grim, people won’t choose stealth as regularly.

(That /tag command didn’t work,)

b..buu..but i though red is read? ;D

well you know i agree ^^

Wed 10 Mar 2021 8:00 AM by boho

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Mar 2021 6:14 AM
boho wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 8:51 PM
but if Stealth is so good, why aren’t Minstrels significantly more popular than Skalds?

It's not like minstrel have specced stealth just incorporated into their speccs...they have to make heavy sacrifices for it.
And the pet, a major contribution to minstrels' combat ability doesn't stealth, so it cannot effectively be combined with a stealth-spec
Minstrels don't have their "package" and then have to decide between stealth or speed.

And even if you want to go full stealth minstrel, you don't have a spec that has high DPS. You are then a very strong utility-class in stealthzergs against counterparts in the other realms that don't have that option at all...but you are still pidgeonholed into grouping with other stealthers

50 Music + some weapon + enough stealth for Climb Walls or simply enough to be relatively safe from being spotted if you're far enough off the beaten path is easily attained with minimal sacrifice. The return on investment for weapon skill isn't fantastic for Minstrels anyway due not only to their inferior table, but due to their kit not really supporting it. I don't want to say "the Charm and the shout do all the work anyway" because it isn't true, but I've got to admit it can feel that way sometimes.

Anyway, as to the topic of the (troll) thread, I don't think stealth is a problem with Assassins. They sacrifice an immense amount for a skill that only allows them to choose their fights, and even then Speed 6 is better at that since people can't see through Speed 6. Plus, Speed 6 comes in a package of skills that all make the character (and his group) perform dramatically better once combat has started - unlike Stealth, which does absolutely nothing once combat has begun.

The point is, if you want to look to something imbalanced about Assassins, look at what makes them unique. No one's railing about stealth on Archers or Minstrels. Other song classes aren't being abandoned for Minstrels like you'd think they would be if stealth really was such a game-breaking mechanic. I think it's Poisons being used in ways the original designers never considered due to limitations of the time. Apparently Poisons eventually got tuned down on live as well, so there's precedent for this conclusion.

Wed 10 Mar 2021 8:27 AM by Sepplord

Regarding the topic of the (troll)thread...OP doesn't mention assassins at all in the opening post though...
you are nitpicking and shifting the narrative, while simultaneously claiming that there isn't anything to discuss at all and it's just trolling

I didn'T comment on removing stealth or the power of assassins, i explained why looking at minstrels and deducing that stealth must be weak since otherwise there must be more minstrels is a onesided POV that doesn't account for other factors. A minstrel without pet is really weak, and you are suggesting a spec that has even LESS weaponspec than the visible standardspecc that is already weak weapondamage.
If minstrels could stealth with their pet (or even just keep up a charmed pet nearby while being stealthed) THEN your point might be reasonable. The sacrifice to stealth as a minstrel isn't minimal, it's more than half of their dmg capabilities (that is annoying but small to begin with)

Wed 10 Mar 2021 10:13 AM by gotwqqd

boho wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Mar 2021 8:00 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Mar 2021 6:14 AM
boho wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Mar 2021 8:51 PM
but if Stealth is so good, why aren’t Minstrels significantly more popular than Skalds?

It's not like minstrel have specced stealth just incorporated into their speccs...they have to make heavy sacrifices for it.
And the pet, a major contribution to minstrels' combat ability doesn't stealth, so it cannot effectively be combined with a stealth-spec
Minstrels don't have their "package" and then have to decide between stealth or speed.

And even if you want to go full stealth minstrel, you don't have a spec that has high DPS. You are then a very strong utility-class in stealthzergs against counterparts in the other realms that don't have that option at all...but you are still pidgeonholed into grouping with other stealthers
50 Music + some weapon + enough stealth for Climb Walls or simply enough to be relatively safe from being spotted if you're far enough off the beaten path is easily attained with minimal sacrifice. The return on investment for weapon skill isn't fantastic for Minstrels anyway due not only to their inferior table, but due to their kit not really supporting it. I don't want to say "the Charm and the shout do all the work anyway" because it isn't true, but I've got to admit it can feel that way sometimes.

Anyway, as to the topic of the (troll) thread, I don't think stealth is a problem with Assassins. They sacrifice an immense amount for a skill that only allows them to choose their fights, and even then Speed 6 is better at that since people can't see through Speed 6. Plus, Speed 6 comes in a package of skills that all make the character (and his group) perform dramatically better once combat has started - unlike Stealth, which does absolutely nothing once combat has begun.

The point is, if you want to look to something imbalanced about Assassins, look at what makes them unique. No one's railing about stealth on Archers or Minstrels. Other song classes aren't being abandoned for Minstrels like you'd think they would be if stealth really was such a game-breaking mechanic. I think it's Poisons being used in ways the original designers never considered due to limitations of the time. Apparently Poisons eventually got tuned down on live as well, so there's precedent for this conclusion.

This
And same applies to swapping in a shield after each dual or two handed attack

Wed 10 Mar 2021 10:25 AM by Astaa

Maybe an immunity timer on poisons would be good.

Wed 10 Mar 2021 11:11 AM by inoeth

or maybe do not allow item swap from inventory while in combat, 1h and 2h slot switch should however be allowed
on the other hand handing out several venoms is a key feature of assassins and if that was limited to only 3 at a time which would be purged at the start of each fight, those would be very useless tbh

making venoms an instant debuff with cool down is not the most bad idea from live actually

Wed 10 Mar 2021 7:07 PM by gotwqqd

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Mar 2021 11:11 AM
or maybe do not allow item swap from inventory while in combat, 1h and 2h slot switch should however be allowed
on the other hand handing out several venoms is a key feature of assassins and if that was limited to only 3 at a time which would be purged at the start of each fight, those would be very useless tbh

making venoms an instant debuff with cool down is not the most bad idea from live actually

This