New PvE Content and changes to existing instanced PvE Content

Changes to instanced PvE:

As is tradition in mmos, mechanics will be found that if stacked / built into fotm setups have a rather degenerate effect on the content and we once again follow what is also tradition: hitting that with the nerf hammer.

The general goal going forward will be that all dps classes should be reasonably close to each other in their dps, at least against bosses. This round of changes will see nerfs to the overachiever, future changes will see some pve only buffs to those that need help.

Bosses:
The melee damage of bosses will be quadrupled, melee damage from bosses will be reduced by 1.5% per modified shield spec of the target if the target has a shield equipped, up to a maximum of 75%.
Pbae damage against bosses will be reduced by 66%
Single target nuke damage, including pets and style procs, against bosses will be reduced by 25%, in case of player nukes the mana cost of those will be reduced by 33% as well

HoH:
Zorsh and Rorsh will share a HP pool

Other:
The NPC that has to be killed for the instance quest, Paul, will be moved to PvE zones to allow quest completion without triggering the realm timer.
Timer for DS and HoH will be reset
You will be able to see the records for each realm

New Content:
No exact ETA here yet but you can expect testing to begin sometime next week.

Quite a while back we announced it: https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/14170-new-pve-group-content-for-feathers

The basic summary would be:
Summonable encounter randomly picked from a pool based on your challenge level which increases which each killed encounter. Each encounter will have a leaderboard.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 1:58 PM by DJ2000

so, Bosses do 4x Melee Damage (only)
Shield spec Players will reduce it back to "regular" Damage, with 50 Shield spec.

example:
400 Melee Damage x 4 = 1.600
Reduced by 1,5%xShieldspec (1,5% x 50) = 75% reduction
1.600 reduced by 75% back to 400 Damage. So no change for the 50 Shield Tank, while 42 Shield Tanks can only reduce by 63% to 592.

Nuke and Style procs (mainly Reavers) get reduced damage, while nukes cost less.

so, In other words... you just want to prolong the avg run time?

Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:04 PM by fardorg

So what I am seeing is that you do not want the average player to be able to template toons or be able to craft because runs in HOH and DS will take an hour per run for only 10k feathers, thus making it not worth it at all. Right now the way it is run is good enough. A "chill" run below 30 minutes per run is about the average and what people are wanting/willing to put into it. Thanks for the heads up though, the ones running DS/HoH will now hoard their feathers because people won't be willing to pay the coin for what they will want to charge since it will basically become a job to run these instead of having fun, in, a, game.

Just my opinion though, it doesn't matter really.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:05 PM by

gruenesschaf

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 1:58 PM
so, Bosses do 4x Melee Damage (only)
Shield spec Players will reduce it back to "regular" Damage, with 50 Shield spec.

example:
400 Melee Damage x 4 = 1.600
Reduced by 1,5%xShieldspec (1,5% x 50) = 75% reduction
1.600 reduced by 75% back to 400 Damage. So no change for the 50 Shield Tank, while 42 Shield Tanks can only reduce by 63% to 592.

Nuke and Style procs (mainly Reavers) get reduced damage, while nukes cost less.

so, In other words... you just want to prolong the avg run time?

If your 42 shield tank has +0 to shield your calculation would be correct, it's using modified shield spec -> 42+8 would be enough. The reason here is that some groups are running without tanks entirely.

While the average run time will be affected, the main concern is that certain classes just deal much more damage than alternatives which in itself makes it nearly impossible to properly tune encounter, either you go with the average group (which we did) and have stacked groups just blast things allowing them to ignore any and all mechanics or you tune it for the highest possible dps setup making it nearly impossible to kill it with any other setup. Reducing the dps difference from highest to lowest dps class from 5x or more to 2x or less makes this problem basically disappear.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:27 PM by DJ2000

Do Theu Earth Pets fall under "Single target nuke damage, including pets and style procs, against bosses will be reduced by 25%"?

That certain classes do more damage than others won't change, though.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:29 PM by Jakoda

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:27 PM
Do Theu Earth Pets

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:27 PM
fall under "Single target nuke damage, including pets and style procs, against bosses will be reduced by 25%"?

You answered your own question

Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:29 PM by fardorg

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:05 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 1:58 PM
so, Bosses do 4x Melee Damage (only)
Shield spec Players will reduce it back to "regular" Damage, with 50 Shield spec.

example:
400 Melee Damage x 4 = 1.600
Reduced by 1,5%xShieldspec (1,5% x 50) = 75% reduction
1.600 reduced by 75% back to 400 Damage. So no change for the 50 Shield Tank, while 42 Shield Tanks can only reduce by 63% to 592.

Nuke and Style procs (mainly Reavers) get reduced damage, while nukes cost less.

so, In other words... you just want to prolong the avg run time?

If your 42 shield tank has +0 to shield your calculation would be correct, it's using modified shield spec -> 42+8 would be enough. The reason here is that some groups are running without tanks entirely.

While the average run time will be affected, the main concern is that certain classes just deal much more damage than alternatives which in itself makes it nearly impossible to properly tune encounter, either you go with the average group (which we did) and have stacked groups just blast things allowing them to ignore any and all mechanics or you tune it for the highest possible dps setup making it nearly impossible to kill it with any other setup. Reducing the dps difference from highest to lowest dps class from 5x or more to 2x or less makes this problem basically disappear.

I guess why would you need to change it? Are people having issues making the classes needed to run it the way it is? Why would you want to increase the time of something that is needed to be done to template and other things? It's like saying you want to increase the time on the dragons or Sidi/TG/Galla just because it's being done too much and "too fast". Do we want to go back to TOA times where it took hours and hours to do an encounter? I mean I understand wanting to do things a different way, but couldn't that be done by giving bonuses for groups that are more melee than bomb and such and let the players decide if they want a faster run or slower run based on the toons they want to play? I just am having a hard time understanding why the change is needed other than those that don't want to make the classes currently being used in the setups done.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:31 PM by DJ2000

Jakoda wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:29 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:27 PM
Do Theu Earth Pets

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:27 PM
fall under "Single target nuke damage, including pets and style procs, against bosses will be reduced by 25%"?

You answered your own question

Earth pets do unstyled melee damage, they dont "nuke" or use Style procs.

As it stands, Melee DPS is not hit, only Magic is (pbaoe/single+styleprocs), when facing BOSSES.
Vs "Trash/add/spawn" it's all back to regular 100%.

If i understand it right, the big "culprit" are the Pbaoe Classes, with some additional minor ones (realm based).
Wouldn't a simple reduction per said class used in a setup suffice? Like 33% reduction with class x1, but 66% reduction when class x2 ?

Fri 12 Feb 2021 3:08 PM by Zartran

Moving Paul to a PVE Zone so he doesnt activate the realm Timer, But you leave the Craftmaster quests in EV so they do. Which also makes them much more difficult to complete as the task is in EV. While the Task is never in the zones Paul was located in. Maybe you could look at moving those encounters as well, Possibly to the Dragon zone in each realm and add some difficulty if you think it needs it but away from the RvR zones.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 3:28 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Darkspire is not required like some of you are claiming; I've done it once and have 45 level 50s, 32 of them are templated.

Don't like the changes? Farm money instead of feathers and buy what you need.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 3:34 PM by Sepplord

fardorg wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:29 PM
and let the players decide if they want a faster run or slower run based on the toons they want to play?

I really get ranting, for example when something you have optimized gets changed....but this is an example that still boggles my mind how someone could think it, type it and then actually go through with posting it

Fri 12 Feb 2021 3:37 PM by

gruenesschaf

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:31 PM
If i understand it right, the big "culprit" are the Pbaoe Classes, with some additional minor ones (realm based).
Wouldn't a simple reduction per said class used in a setup suffice? Like 33% reduction with class x1, but 66% reduction when class x2 ?

Pbae classes are just the biggest outlier. Daoc was never really meant to have challenging group based pve content and as such nobody cares that pbae classes do about 3 - 5x the dps of the other classes and it's just logical that (many) players will always try to find the most optimal setup, and that's perfectly fine, however, it's kind of not fine that some setups exist that can be so much more effective that you literally skip all mechanics and just blast everything down.
An alternative to the damage reduction would also have been to increase the mana cost / reduce the focus effectiveness making casters go oom near 30ish% and forcing them to reg thereby reducing their total dps to the same level but I'm pretty sure that just being oom and sitting around is rather unfun.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 3:38 PM by fardorg

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 3:34 PM
fardorg wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 2:29 PM
and let the players decide if they want a faster run or slower run based on the toons they want to play?

I really get ranting, for example when something you have optimized gets changed....but this is an example that still boggles my mind how someone could think it, type it and then actually go through with posting it

Yea, what I am saying is the people that don't want to make boms or a tank or even play a CC class, if they want to be only melee, fine, do it slower. Don't make those that can play any class suffer because others don't want to make toons needed for certain things.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 3:57 PM by Talo

How about switching to a kind of "challange mode" if you chose to enter without unique classes?
The rule of max 2 times a class is special to feather dungeons.. just tighten it up to 1 per class for normal fun.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 4:40 PM by Nephamael

The melee damage of bosses will be quadrupled, melee damage from bosses will be reduced by 1.5% per modified shield spec of the target if the target has a shield equipped, up to a maximum of 75%.

I see the idea is to stop Bards from being able to tank. But the problem is parry users get punished by this.

Please find a formula like Block+Parry/2 = 50 = same dmg as now, else some classes that could hop into DS/HoH as offtanks are excluded, simply because they have low shieldspec and high parry.
Or even Block+Parry+Evade/2 to help BM/Svg/Zerker/Merc with offtanking.

Pbae damage against bosses will be reduced by 66%

How about try 25% for a start?
The average hib DS run is much longer than the average alb reaver DS run.
This will simply exclude pbaoes completely and make everyone go back to single target and ranged aoe only in all 3 realms.

Single target nuke damage, including pets and style procs, against bosses will be reduced by 25%, in case of player nukes the mana cost of those will be reduced by 33% as well

This might be ok for high rank groups but will hurt the noob friendlyness rly hard.

------------------
Overall i think what you will achieve here is:

1) The feather market will skyrocket to feather prices of 8p/20k or more.

2) The DS/HoH communities will exclude noobs and get a lot more elitist.

3) The diversity of class combinations will get worse not better.

4) The average run gets much longer and much more frustrating if you group a single low rank or noob.

...................................
Let's be constructive:

Here is my counteroffer:

Simply go ahead with the class restrictions:

Limit of 2 pbaoes per group and limit of 2 offtanks per group.

Limit of 1 per class per group.

This would make people group archers and or assassins for some lineups , Wardens, Friars, etc.

- this would also have dramatic consequences for difficulty and speed but generate a much more open class variety -

It would probably have to come with a HP reduction on some encounters, like Ogoga, Maschunga, Mother of Ice.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 4:59 PM by Pingyongyang

I love the idea of making the encounter limited to 1 per class allowed.

For Midgard I run beginner/intermediate groups (0-10 runs each) trying to get new Mids into DS when everyone is under 26 runs you need:

Pac H
Aug H
Sham
War
Zerk/Sav/SB
Zerk/Sav/SB
Zerk/Sav/SB/Dark BD
Zerk/Sav/SB/Dark BD/Skald (AoTG 5)/Dark RM (dmg add for melee)

With this change I don't see where you can fit SM anywhere now that they can't do caster groups. Also Dark RM which even before was a rare option for hybrid lists is now crossed off the list. Dark BD still has enough single dmg with pets to be viable. Skald only usable in groups with AoTG 5 and even then rather have an extra mpds or dark bd instead.

I know you are going to buff Hunter, Thane, Skald somehow in upcoming patch - but you killed SM and RM for any setup I can see in exchange. You could only run caster groups before with an experienced Trispec Healer with alot of runs. So SMs and RMs could only get into an experienced group by deafult that had the runs/powerpool to kill bosses. SM and RM were not viable for lower run groups due to lower powerpool and 2 healers needed in low run groups. Now they are not viable for lower run groups or higher run.

Making instance force only 1 class max per group would solve a good chunk of these whack-mole balance issues and be more inclusive. The the thane and SM would be friends in a group instead of the thane left out or the SM nerfed.

I do agree that hunters, thanes, skalds need to be buffed alot so they are a wanted option any time a group is formed.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 5:01 PM by Ladylofty

Can you also look at moving Alb epic quests which also trigger a realm timer while you are at it?

I look forward to seeing the “nerf” to try different set ups for DS. However, I hope it isn’t too harsh since DS runners are a vital part of the economy. To the gentleman that said just farm more gold a buy it. That’s great but less ROGS of higher quality because less DS runs due to pain and time equals higher costs on good ROGS across the board. If they make the encounter too hard it will have a severe negative effect on the economy.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 5:52 PM by Tulpa

I fell like this just makes it harder for the average person unless I am missing something, groups will want even more DPS and higher realm ranks.

How does this help off meta groups? I mean my champ doesn't even spec shield, but I have high parry (45) why not make that effect damage as well... it would help VW too.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 6:34 PM by Lawdawg

Minimum requirement for DS group just went to rr6 and above...nice...Player base will always figure out a way to maximize a challenge, at the expense of the casual player. If you don't like the fact that the leets can learn and beat events so fast, just scrap the mobs, and set a 1 hour minimum for DS, and we'll all just zone in to DS, stand there for an hour, and collect our feathers.

This is totally counter productive to what Phoenix was focused on at launch. QOL improved DAOC. We are getting one nerf after another, that affects that very thing, adding more time to accomplish things in game.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 7:37 PM by lolmatron

In my mind and experience the hard part is getting into a group of you haven't completed 26+ runs.
Most of the time the reply comes back as: no thanks, we want someone that has done it as knows the run.
Guild runs are different, teaching sessions etc - that is usually not the case when trying to join thru lfg. Unless it's a scrub-run.

Maybe the best way to nerf balance this would be:
- re-arrange trash to be more varied
-- IE more mobs with less hp or cc immunities?
- add bonus feathers when you have one player below 26runs
- add bonus until to drops when there are 8 unique classes present

I'd rather see options, not forcing setups.
If you want a stacked fast run, go ahead grab those few feathers and 50util drops... Want more well apply yourself and grab someone outside your usual pool of runners.

And maybe add a reset run counter NPC, so you can go back to 0runs when you have done 100?..

Keep up the good work and new stuff Devs!

Fri 12 Feb 2021 7:45 PM by Pingyongyang

^

If you do a total newb run you get 20k+ feathers for one run. Everyone experienced drops down to 9k for a run. So there is a feather bonus incentive to bring newbs already, but I think it should indeed be higher. Like 35-40k (which is fair because an exp grp 30min = 9k feathers, total newb groups take 2:30-3:00 which is 5x+ the time) oftenfeathers if you complete a run with all newbs, so vets are paid for teaching newbs. Maybe only offer the ultra high feathers in total newb groups to the high run people and keep newbs earning the 16-20k for those runs. Right now the incentives are not nearly enough to teach a group of new people unless they are guild or friends.

Most experienced groups will sometimes take one newb DPS with little responsibility to get a grouping going, but never 3 noobs, and almost never a responsibility position healer/tank/cc.

Secondly I love your idea of upping high RoG drops and feathers for groups that have all unique classes as a much higher bonus than for cheese dps groups.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 7:47 PM by Bry

Why?
If you want to make pve slower and more painful, introduce a new instance. There are a ton of people that play this game for rvr that don’t Zerg and don’t like to farm DS or do raids for feathers. This just alienates them further.
You don’t like pbaoe so you nerf it? Based on what? Because a melee can’t do the damage a pbaoe caster can? They aren’t supposed to; it was designed that way on purpose. Pbaoe is interruptible and requires standing in one place. It works in many pve scenarios. Melee doesn’t get interrupted.

Instead, just buff melee that way people can CHOOSE how they want to play the game instead of being forced to play some arbitrary way you randomly decide on.

Also, celerity will need to be addressed if you plan on screwing casters and buffing melee.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 7:50 PM by

gruenesschaf

Bry wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 7:47 PM
You don’t like pbaoe so you nerf it? Based on what? Because a melee can’t do the damage a pbaoe caster can? No kidding; it was designed that way.

And these instances are designed in such a way that the mechanics should be played.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 7:54 PM by Pingyongyang

I really hope you give Hunters Juggernaut 5 for their dog pet on a 2 min refresh timer for DS.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 8:09 PM by tucc1129

This is very disappointing. This doesn't appear to add any extra challenge, just more time spent. People might struggle at first, but eventually they will figure out a new formula to grind out these instances, it will just take longer. So for casual players who only had the time to run a few DS/HoH per week, they are now looking at even fewer. The people who grind all day won't be affected as badly, so it will increase the gap between people who play all day and the people who just log a few hours after work.

One of the reasons that I love Phoenix is all of the quality of life improvements and the fact that you guys have taken a lot of the grind out of the game. This change appears to go directly against that philosophy by deliberately adding more grinding to stay relevant.

DaoC is a PVP game and adding extra grind to the PVE component is only going to make the game more boring and time-consuming. I really hope these changes do not happen.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 8:16 PM by Chaskha

PvE in DAoC has always seen tricks to get faster results. This is part of the fun, knowing that the normal way is slow but there is a smart way with some constraints that will get you to the same results 3x to 10x faster depending on how much constraints you want to apply.
It is the pleasure of beating the mechanic.

Fine tuning until no one can beat the mechanic will lead to more frustration than necessary.

Just my 2 cents obviously

Fri 12 Feb 2021 8:21 PM by Pingyongyang

I think incentivizing and buffing non-cheese groups is a better move than nerfing cheese groups. I don't think the population really holds the mechanics as some holy thing to be respected.

I think everyone will be happier if you release new instances with tighter constrictions & higher rewards (as long as it can be completed in under 30min with a highly experienced group) to prevent cheesing and players can just vote with their feet if they like the new instances with different rules or not. Everyone always likes more options than more constrictions.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 8:38 PM by Faxat

I think fixing bosses that have most of their mechanics circumvented by extreme dps is a smart place to start for class balance, but I think you might have done too much, too fast, and too wide without considdering the wider picture. The shield requirement for tanking is a massive blow to the Skald and I guess this is due to the experimental skald only runs for HoH we tried on mid lately. The Skald only technique means most of the carry lies on the support combined with high dps, so even though it worked it was a pain to do in practice compared to the standard way. The problem now is that by breaking the skald you "fixed" this outlier playstyle, but you also broke the normal way mid does HoH. Meaning half of the content is now effectively locked out.. and we havent even looked at the caster changes. Add that, and then add an annoying amount of potential micromanagement to herd cats through Zorsh, and we are left with just running DS.

The tank changes will not have any effect on normal DS runs for Mid. I guess it will be fun to see if we can actually compete with hib now (all hail the bd), but I think because of the lowered power cost, some of the min-maxers are going to dump points into cast speed to compensate, something that has been discouraged until higher RR's mostly due to an attempt at balancing power drain. Meaning you are mostly left with the same type of run - with a MUCH higher barrier of entry for new people. I guess melee groups are fine.. Not much changes there - except ofcourse that they are clunky and cc heavy, and boring.

I sincerely hope this will not have a detrimental effect on the realm, but I feel between the timing of this, coupled with the event burnout/template demand and actual crazy market fluctuations due to the event donation money sink - it might be wise to try with some lighter touches at first, and then maybe wait and see what happens before you tripleslam mid HoH back to the stoneage.

Also some of us prefer the snowy DF, for the aesthetics. Feel free to add me to brainstorming sessions, as I can contribute constructive advice!

Fri 12 Feb 2021 9:05 PM by JUSTNSANE

How about instead of nerfing a skill or class, make an underpopulation bonus to damage inside ds/hoh. This particular class that isnt brought in typical can be because mathematically you increased there damage with an underpopulation bonus. You can lock casters out of it you like. Hell I would like to see the devs do a run in Darkspire and Hoh and teach us how to do it. We arent doing it as designed is nonsense. We didnt get any rules saying this is the way. Last, adding a boss and four walls with a teleporter is not content its laziness.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 9:54 PM by Pendalith

gives skalds MoB pls

Fri 12 Feb 2021 10:32 PM by SinfulByNature

I dont agree with modifying the Instances, But if this is your plan of action; I'd like to voice my opinon
1. Making the dungeons take longer because some groups have circumvented some mechanics.
-- This seems fine to me as it adds a bit more variety to the character pool already.
-- I cant see many people being able to play the dungeon this way and its already difficult to get new people to try dungeons because a lot of players seem to be rather against taking new players or teaching the instances.
2. Bosses will then one hit any caster or healer if aggro is ever lost.
-- I dont see this as much of an issue if Damage is lowered though. But Still might be something to check out depending on how your modifying the bosses damage recieved be it resists or what have you.
3. 66% seems a touch high.
---With MoM 5 and Aug Acuity 5 pbaoes can hit for about 1K. Reducing that to 300 damage. I think 40% would be a good start. If your trying to extend the dungeon.

So I have a few suggestions as well.
1. Add in a Flat Feather bonus modifier based on Number of completions in a group maybe. E.g. Starts at 600 (So equivalent 75 runs per member)
---Every 100 Completitions after that when last mob in instance is killed Grants an additional 500 Feathers. So a group with 1K total completions Gets an additional 2K feathers each. To offset the diminishing returns and promotes Taking experienced players
2. Bosses Cannot Resist Spell damage if possible.
-- If your going to limit spell damage I think it would be nice that you couldnt be resisted or only have 1% chance Just to add hard consistancy to it.
3. Take Away Crit Variance in the dungeons. For both Melee/spell.
-- Allows there to be a a bit of reward for higher RR casters and Melee.
4. Maybe the number of Debuffs, on a Boss can increase the damage done. Akin to Str/con + Con Debuff dealing more damage in PvE
--This promotes Taking Assassins for their poisons and other Debuffing classes.
5. For hib Specifically Raising the Shroom Cap per animist maybe.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 11:02 PM by Jingo NZ

This is a good approach from the devs. A good philosophy of closing the gap between the optimal and the suboptimal setups.
Once they done that they can balance the duration /risk /reward to line up with their intent; with less worry about having to balance it for the 15min pbaoe runs.

Fri 12 Feb 2021 11:16 PM by DJ2000

Your usual approach is usually to not "punish" players, but rather give incentives to make them do otherwise.
So this "Nerf hammer" approach must have to do with upcoming encounter mechanics? It does seem a bit forced.

Whatever the case, i would advise to take a different approach, as others already suggested.

No nerf/change on Damage.
Lower the Flat Feather Amount.
Give additional Bonuses when Setup is limited to 1x Class.
Give yet additional stackable bonuses, when using the least used classes in DS/HoH per Realm. (f.e.for Hib: Ench 0% bonus, Druid 0% Bonus, Warden 15%, NS 10% Bonus, etc.)
etc. ...something in that vein.

Sat 13 Feb 2021 12:09 AM by

gruenesschaf

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 11:16 PM
Your usual approach is usually to not "punish" players, but rather give incentives to make them do otherwise.
So this "Nerf hammer" approach must have to do with upcoming encounter mechanics? It does seem a bit forced.

Whatever the case, i would advise to take a different approach, as others already suggested.

No nerf/change on Damage.
Lower the Flat Feather Amount.
Give additional Bonuses when Setup is limited to 1x Class.
Give yet additional stackable bonuses, when using the least used classes in DS/HoH per Realm. (f.e.for Hib: Ench 0% bonus, Druid 0% Bonus, Warden 15%, NS 10% Bonus, etc.)
etc. ...something in that vein.

This is fine in a game that went through number tuning already and we're talking about +-15% damage between the dps classes, especially the class based feather bonus is something we've talked about internally. The problem is, we're right now pretty much in the wow classic + world buffs + warrior stacking state.

Sat 13 Feb 2021 12:12 AM by Sagz

Jingo NZ wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 11:02 PM
This is a good approach from the devs. A good philosophy of closing the gap between the optimal and the suboptimal setups.
Once they done that they can balance the duration /risk /reward to line up with their intent; with less worry about having to balance it for the 15min pbaoe runs.

Soooooo let me get this straight, a damage ability that has a higher delve damage should NOT do more damage than a damage ability that has a lower delve? Its like making the guy who can run faster in a race, run with heavier shoes to make it fair, instead of having the others try to get better.

How in the world does this help "suboptimal" groups? you think a Bard/Druid/Warden/Ranger/NS/Hero/Menty/BM should have the same time/ease as a Bard/Druid/Hero/BM/Ment/Chanter/Chanter/Eld ? or whatnot?

Realistically, if you want people to "have to" follow the mechanics instead of blasting through stuff, design better mechanics. Nerfing damage is not a "mechanic". Add say the damage is lowered unless X is done first etc is a mechanic. Or target immune to X damage until Y damage has hit a threshold etc.

Sat 13 Feb 2021 12:14 AM by Colivar85

Interesting changes. It certainly makes other classes more attractive instead of just stacking anything with pbaoe.

Sat 13 Feb 2021 12:18 AM by

gruenesschaf

Sagz wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Feb 2021 12:12 AM
Soooooo let me get this straight, a damage ability that has a higher delve damage should NOT do more damage than a damage ability that has a lower delve? Its like making the guy who can run faster in a race, run with heavier shoes to make it fair, instead of having the others try to get better.

We could also increase the boss hp by 5x and have everyone slog through the millions of hp with casters going oom at the 60% mark forcing them to regen having them end at a reasonable dps when you include the reg time.
People forget that casters have higher dps because they are interruptible and consume mana, however, interrupt is intentionally usually avoidable for the most part and the fights are tuned so that a single mana bar is enough given pots, charge and completions (for hoh) and tinder in case of healer.

I would argue a dps decrease for the outlier that lengthens the encounter for the cheese setups to still be within 1 mana bar is better than forcing every setup to somehow reg 2 or 3 mana bars in a fight.

Sat 13 Feb 2021 12:32 AM by Sagz

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Feb 2021 12:18 AM
Sagz wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Feb 2021 12:12 AM
Soooooo let me get this straight, a damage ability that has a higher delve damage should NOT do more damage than a damage ability that has a lower delve? Its like making the guy who can run faster in a race, run with heavier shoes to make it fair, instead of having the others try to get better.

We could also increase the boss hp by 5x and have everyone slog through the millions of hp with casters going oom at the 60% mark forcing them to regen having them end at a reasonable dps when you include the reg time.
People forget that casters have higher dps because they are interruptible and consume mana, however, interrupt is intentionally usually avoidable for the most part and the fights are tuned so that a single mana bar is enough given pots, charge and completions (for hoh) and tinder in case of healer.

I would argue a dps decrease for the outlier that lengthens the encounter for the cheese setups to still be within 1 mana bar is better than forcing every setup to somehow reg 2 or 3 mana bars in a fight.

If you want people to have to follow the mechanics though what you are proposing again, is NOT a mechanic. Why not just add a mechanic that would interrupt casters if something else is not done? Or the classes power and endo drains faster until X part of the encounter is done? Or only doing damage with melee until boss does X, then have to do Magic damage, till he does Y? etc. That is a mechanic. Nerfing the amount of damage or increasing the mana cost (all of which are outside of the class ability outside the instance) and keeping the current mechanic is not a mechanic.

But whatever, I do not run the server or really have a say in what goes on, but some times things dont make sense. I barely have the time to do it now more or less when it will take longer to do.

Sat 13 Feb 2021 1:02 AM by Pingyongyang

It is quite funny psychologically if you added pulsing wide AE amensia and low dmg DDs to interrupt casters on a semi consistent basis that would be much more "fair" than lowering DPS outcome is the same. I agree route 1 is way more entertaining though.

Sat 13 Feb 2021 1:21 AM by daytonchambers

Add a simple damage shield ability to some bosses, but one that reflects against a magical attack versus the traditional damage shield that reflects vs physical. That way, casters need to be aware of the Boss Calls and halt DPS at certain points of a fight or they end up killing either themselves or their healers power bar.

And as far as NEW pve content goes.... the SI dungeons are tragically under-used aside from Sidi/Galla/TG. Make going to them worthwhile. Please!

Sat 13 Feb 2021 1:59 AM by Nephamael

I would argue a dps decrease for the outlier that lengthens the encounter for the cheese setups to still be within 1 mana bar is better than forcing every setup to somehow reg 2 or 3 mana bars in a fight.

Erm ... Maschunga example: right now it is a 1 Manabar encounter - with a roughly 52% dps reduction for a pbaoe grp it would become a 2 Manabar encounter.

Maschunga is tho for a non 75% pp on everyone group already now a 1.5 or 2 Manabar encounter, so it would become literally impossible to group more than even just 1 new player without a massive disadvantage for the entire group.

Wipes should not be forced by overgrind, but by not doing the mechanics right - if you make a 2 minute encounter a 4 minute encounter, the chance the mechanics are understood and played right, but a slight slip of someone leads to a wipe gets doubled + long grindy encounters are super boring to actually annoying - if anything encounters should be shortened but with a way to ensure the mechanic is followed instead of bypassed.

Mother of Ice: Same story, its a 1+x Manabar encounter right now. If the encounter gets prolonged by just 25% that is 25% power not even a 75% powerpool player will have. The impact this has on someone starting with just a handfull of runs will be dramatic - making this a 3 Manabar encounter.
Imagine the frustration of playing this encounter right for 2 and a half Manabars and then get blown up, because the aoemezzer was interrupted in a unlucky moment or was too close to the Mother for just one second.

Zregoo will be literally unkillable for a full noob group.

Ogoga will be a complete torture as soon as you group a single new person.
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I actually like that you want to make people follow the intended Zorsch/Rorsch mechanics.
I hope what you intend to do is not Zorsch+Rorsch HP for killing Zorsch.

How about simply making Zorsch Immune to damage by everyone his mark is applied to? Decrease the overall HP so the fastest groups have to switch the bosses once and once back and the average group has to switch the bosses twice and back. So the fast fight ends after 3-4 marks and the average fight after 5-7.
I think no group should be forced to switch more than twice, else it becomes grindy and annoying and the setback if things go wrong late into the encounter is too big.
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If you want to shut down HoH completely for Mid and make it an elitist only thing for Hib and Alb you are on the right way.

DS will see a less extreme impact than HoH but the direction will be the same.

I can only strongly urge you to not go forward with this. Think about other ways to enforce mechanics, like i suggested it for Zorsch/Rorsch.

Sat 13 Feb 2021 2:10 AM by Nephamael

I think it would be great to let str/c and basecon debuff and resist debuffs stack for the full ammount. (raising the cap dmg)

This would open up new spec and class combinations to be viable.

With the short debuff duration of just 8s now it would not be completely op to let it have the full effect.

--------------------------------

Why give not just a feather/rog bonus per unique class grouped, but also a 25% dps bonus to every class that is unique in the group.

Sat 13 Feb 2021 6:28 AM by Jingo NZ

They can tweak the encounter difficulty once they have closed the gap with the overtuned optimal setup groups.

Sat 13 Feb 2021 10:13 AM by Patron

1. DS and HoH is not for noobs
Its for endgame high rr and templated chars

2. The state of the art, player dont go galla dragon, SH because they can make more feathers in ds, need to get ended. So im fine with the planned changes.

3. I like competition in gaming, sport and work, so its perfectly for me!

4. Staff need to be carefull not make players quit with too much changes. Phoenix is hot topic, do not kill the bird we all love.

Thy

Sat 13 Feb 2021 10:55 AM by DJ2000

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Feb 2021 12:09 AM
This is fine in a game that went through number tuning already and we're talking about +-15% damage between the dps classes, especially the class based feather bonus is something we've talked about internally. The problem is, we're right now pretty much in the wow classic + world buffs + warrior stacking state.

I never played WoW, so i can't really relate to what you are trying to describe.
But what i do seem to understand is, when reading your first sentence, that these changes are basically just "Part1" of several adjusting steps. If so, then make it more clear that this is not just a gun-and-done change.
When there is a bigger picture behind it to even things out in the end, then its a little bit easier to approach this with an eased mind.

Sat 13 Feb 2021 11:43 AM by Wakefield

If it isn't broke, do not fix it is the old saying.

What this is going to lead to is people charging more for feathers, been a few already asking for double of the normal feather price already this morning.

Where as 4-5 plat, on whatever of the 3 realms, seems fair and easily farmable if your casual, no matter what class. Because if you are a casual, you probabaly do not want to do DS runs, you probabaly are going to want to spend majority of your time doing rvr, not grinding out DS.

So, those casuals are going to want to farm more cash to pay for feathers, which means less people in rvr zones, which means less numbers in BG's,r less fodder for the task zones.

I just can't understand why the devs want to change stuff that isnt broken and basically break the economy which has pretty much been the same since launch(ie 20k feathers for 4 plat).

Especially as they want to run the xp event every 3 weeks, meaning more people wanting feathers, especially all the potential new people who choose to stay after the event.

Its a daft idea, but then again, a lot over the past few months have just been head scratching.

Sat 13 Feb 2021 11:59 AM by utaz

Wakefield wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Feb 2021 11:43 AM
I just can't understand why the devs want to change stuff that isnt broken and basically break the economy which has pretty much been the same since launch(ie 20k feathers for 4 plat).

Simply because someone figured out a way how to do it in like 10min by pulling everything and nuking it down... and we cant have that here!

Mon 22 Feb 2021 1:02 PM by FunusGaming

Running a few Hoh and DS my current feedback is that the world of casters is probably adequate where it is.

What I could see as an improvement for more variety in the different setups without giving us the easymode back is allow the damage reduce from bosses to be calculated to shield OR parry, whichever is higher. This would allow for example a Berserker to be included in HoH as the second tank. Or a Skald even, making mid able to catch up to hib/alb completion times on HoH.

- Haemo

Wed 17 Mar 2021 8:10 PM by

Uthred

Update on the new instance:

The latest test of the new mobs was great and those who witnessed it surely had some fun too (if you find joy in players dieing).

The mobs we tested only need some minor tweaks and then should be ready to challenge players. Currently we are working on two more new bosses which will have another new mechanic. This will probably take 1-2 days which means we will not be able to release the instance before the Playing Field event. The plan for now is that it will be released very shortly after the event has ended.

There will be more infos coming as soon as we are sure about the exact ETA. But as I already told yesterday during the test, I will also let you know here: Each of the new bosses will have a 1% chance to drop a vanity pet version of themselfes. Those vanity pets will only be obtainable via killing the bosses and not via gambling.

Stay tuned for more infos.

Thu 18 Mar 2021 1:28 AM by soremir

The vanity pet thing is so cool!!!

Thu 18 Mar 2021 1:19 PM by fardorg

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Mar 2021 8:10 PM
those who witnessed it surely had some fun too (if you find joy in players dieing).

Sooooooo many Pauls.... Was very funny watching them scatter like roaches! Can't wait for the challenge (please less Paul though, more COWBELL!)

Sat 27 Mar 2021 10:50 AM by Centenario

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Feb 2021 1:47 PM
Other:
The NPC that has to be killed for the instance quest, Paul, will be moved to PvE zones to allow quest completion without triggering the realm timer.
Timer for DS and HoH will be reset
You will be able to see the records for each realm

Where are the mobs for the quest pls?