Healing window - click and heal

Hi all,

just wondering, i saw some videos of people that by double clicking on group life window they automatically face and heal.
Tbh i've never tried it, what do you think they use?
A specific UI or ahk macro's? Would be nice because i could free out some qbinds.

For example this guy in his video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuEvpEviJKs&t=6s

Thanks

Thu 28 Jan 2021 8:45 AM by Aprox

I dont know how the guy in the video is doing it, maybe he uses hotkeys, which we dont see in the video. There is a nice tutorial from oblesik on youtube about key-bindings. He talks a lot about healers in that context.
After watching his video i used to play my druid with bindings for every goupmember on my keyboard : alt+q,w,e,r for the upper 4 and alt+asdf for the lower 4. safes the time for clicking with the mouse. Face should be for any class on a easy key. i have it on one of my thump-buttons on my mouse. With everything on hotkey/qbind u can use ahk to bind heal and face to the same button. I think that is the fastest way to react to a healing demand.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 10:28 AM by DJ2000

Heavy ahk use in 8man is just as prevalent as in solo/duo, regardless of the Role. Only the "Zerg-Playstyle" probably doesn't use ahk that much.
Double click was also used for attack Pet command if an enemy was targeted, while its a Heal/cure when a friendly is targeted.

Like it or hate it, its part of phoenix.
Incentives to "custom" your controls, even if its just a simple remapping on the Keyboard, to achieve better performance should be obvious though.
The only iffy part about using ahk, which cannot be achieved in any other way, is the use of (multiple/stacking/simultaneously) Melee Styles; positional (side, back) especially.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 10:42 AM by Simon73

As warden i use a lot of ahk. But usiing the group heal window would free two main buttons that i would gladly use for other things.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 2:30 PM by Tienef

We can see that several clicks makes him face and cure.
This would be possible by rebinding a double click, adding the face and cure qbinds to it.

However I don't think you will get an answer from video author since rebinding a double click is not native and requires some "if" which are forbidden on Phoenix (https://www.autohotkey.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=64149).

Btw we can also see chat logs closing/opening each time he selects something, which is highly suspicious of a scout program for showing class/rank of an ennemy (and is also forbidden) on an overlay window.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 2:48 PM by DJ2000

Yeah, pretty much. He got a lengthy script running for sure.
Same as the 4:52 min mark, where the single and Grp inst fired off in sequence (even though the single inst was out at 4:31 min). There are a lot of "if" checks.

On another Note:
The UI itself is ochui's (?) if i remember it correctly.
The /Face command can be built into the UI, if that is all you are after.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 3:17 PM by Sepplord

So, do we need to get our pitchforks or has that player been banned long ago?

Thu 28 Jan 2021 3:53 PM by DJ2000

I am pretty sure that hitting him would result in hitting at least 75% of the entire 8v8/Solo scene.
Its a given atm, like the Buff bots in the past, or the ahk/engine shortcomings of today.
There will be always "bad" players that push "grey area" stuff as far as they can, even past the point of it still being "grey"; and while no one wants to be left behind, so everyone does it.

So my guess is nothing will happen in the greater scheme of things.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 4:09 PM by ExcretusMaximus

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jan 2021 3:53 PM
I am pretty sure that hitting him would result in hitting at least 75% of the entire 8v8/Solo scene.

So what? If they break the rules, they get punished. They're not special because they play the game a certain way.

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jan 2021 3:53 PM
There will be always "bad" players that push "grey area" stuff as far as they can, even past the point of it still being "grey"

There's nothing "grey" about it, if they're obviously using conditions, they're breaking a clearly stated rule. Bust them.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 4:18 PM by Astaa

As if that will happen

They will just delete the thread and say don't publicly name people, then do nothing.

I would suggest PMing a GM on discord with a link to the video and your allegations.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 4:22 PM by Magesty

Woah! Hold on a second here! You're telling me that they allowed people to use scripting programs and that some players are breaking the rules by adding if modifiers!?

Frankly I'm shocked that opening the floodgates to scripting would result in players using macro programs to their fullest. I'm sure only a small handful of players are actually cheating with a program used for cheating. I mean, the risk of getting caught if you use conditional language in your script is super high, right? It's really easy to police it I'm sure-- otherwise why would it be allowed at all?

Oh, it allows assassins to swap weapons easier? Got it. Why try to correct for janky and not originally intended gameplay when you can just allow scripting? Personally, I love it when every skald I fight sounds like a nuclear bomb. It's also great when every 2H melee swaps to shield with perfect timing in between their melee swings. Totally fits in the spirit of their intended design.

"Advanced" scripting like in the video really shouldn't be a grey area. Along with regular scripting it shouldn't be allowed. Tedious abilities that were traditionally macro'd like paladin chants should be reworked in some fashion to make the need to script them unnecessary. Nerf/adjust those mechanics that aren't in the spirit of the original game design like weapon swapping from bags and using 1H/shield in between 2H swings. Actively creating an environment that discourages cheating through adjusting mechanics is far better than just giving in to it.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 7:02 PM by stewbeedoo

I did not watch the video, but as I recall most custom UIs had a "healers helper" which showed all group members and allowed you to /face when selecting them on the dialog.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 7:31 PM by Svekt

AHK carries too many players. I click and qbind and have no problems attacking, cc, demezz, heal whatever. They literally give you 3 hot bars, a whole keyboard to q bind on and /keyboard to move default keys around. The fact that so many people rely on AHK shows you how many people need a crutch to play a 20 year old game.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 7:43 PM by Fiatil

It is kind of a bummer how normalized cheating with third party tools is on this server.

Every time I'm in a party with a bard, they're constantly twisting songs over and over and over again. There's no way all of these people are button mashing that frequently -- they have an ahk script with a delay to make their characters constantly twist songs.

There are popular Phoenix twitch streamers clearly and obviously using ReShade to make night brighter and more visible, aaaand it's fine somehow. They'll just say "oh the game looks prettier with brighter nights!" so somehow that isn't cheating....my instinct is to tell my friends I'm playing with to turn their torches off at night in RvR, but it's ultimately useless when ReShade is allowed and it's used to turn night into day.

Thu 28 Jan 2021 8:07 PM by Catkain

I agree with the general sentiment of a few posters here: ahk, reshade and other third party software should not be allowed in my opinion. Not even for skalds...!

Thu 28 Jan 2021 10:01 PM by Svekt

Do people really use reshade for nighttime when they can just raise their brightness and gama settings via their monitor settings? Literally no 3rd party software needed in addition to what you already have...

Thu 28 Jan 2021 11:48 PM by

gruenesschaf

While the exact wording of the rule regarding scripting / macros might be vague, the implications are pretty clear cut though.
To summarize those rules and reword them: You press a button, things happen right then and there not "later", nothing ever happens without your input and pressing the same button (combination) always results in the same keys being sent to the game.
That is what no conditions implies (no state between presses = same actions / keys every time), this is what no repeats implies (stuff happens now, not later). A no delay rule exists to also prevent "later" actions.

Not allowing any kind of macro software when a good chunk of the stock keyboard software includes those capabilities is just an outdated rule that just asks to be ignored. The action and when to take it should be what matters, how precisely those actions are taken - be it by pressing 3456 quickly one after the other or having some macro thing do it with just one keypress - should be largely irrelevant. Still, a line has to be drawn somewhere and that line here is effectively just allowing the simplest kind of macro: multiple keys sent per button press.

Svekt wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jan 2021 10:01 PM
Do people really use reshade for nighttime when they can just raise their brightness and gama settings via their monitor settings? Literally no 3rd party software needed in addition to what you already have...

Good thing monitor gamma settings require no software, the gamma setting just magically exists. But if you really feel better telling yourself that changing the monitor gamma is any way different from using any kind of gamma correction software, go for it. Also see above regarding stock keyboard software which by your definition would not be considered 3rd party software.

Magesty wrote: Oh, it allows assassins to swap weapons easier? Got it. Why try to correct for janky and not originally intended gameplay when you can just allow scripting? Personally, I love it when every skald I fight sounds like a nuclear bomb. It's also great when every 2H melee swaps to shield with perfect timing in between their melee swings. Totally fits in the spirit of their intended design.

May I introduce you to /switch for the assassin case or may I introduce you to the incredibly new keybinds provided by the options screen: "Right Hand Weap" and "Two Handed Weap" for the 2h/shield case.

Magesty wrote: Tedious abilities that were traditionally macro'd like paladin chants should be reworked in some fashion to make the need to script them unnecessary. Nerf/adjust those mechanics that aren't in the spirit of the original game design like weapon swapping from bags and using 1H/shield in between 2H swings. Actively creating an environment that discourages cheating through adjusting mechanics is far better than just giving in to it.

I would in general agree, see what we did for weapon swapping for poisons for example or the pala endu chant, both of those were largely aimed at reducing the need for macros to be effective.

As for this video in particular, we will look into it. The fact that the combat log is toggled on / off on mouse click is at least interesting.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:26 AM by Svekt

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jan 2021 11:48 PM
While the exact wording of the rule regarding scripting / macros might be vague, the implications are pretty clear cut though.
To summarize those rules and reword them: You press a button, things happen right then and there not "later", nothing ever happens without your input and pressing the same button (combination) always results in the same keys being sent to the game.
That is what no conditions implies (no state between presses = same actions / keys every time), this is what no repeats implies (stuff happens now, not later). A no delay rule exists to also prevent "later" actions.

Not allowing any kind of macro software when a good chunk of the stock keyboard software includes those capabilities is just an outdated rule that just asks to be ignored. The action and when to take it should be what matters, how precisely those actions are taken - be it by pressing 3456 quickly one after the other or having some macro thing do it with just one keypress - should be largely irrelevant. Still, a line has to be drawn somewhere and that line here is effectively just allowing the simplest kind of macro: multiple keys sent per button press.

Svekt wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jan 2021 10:01 PM
Do people really use reshade for nighttime when they can just raise their brightness and gama settings via their monitor settings? Literally no 3rd party software needed in addition to what you already have...
Good thing monitor gamma settings require no software, the gamma setting just magically exists. But if you really feel better telling yourself that changing the monitor gamma is any way different from using any kind of gamma correction software, go for it. Also see above regarding stock keyboard software which by your definition would not be considered 3rd party software.

Magesty wrote: Oh, it allows assassins to swap weapons easier? Got it. Why try to correct for janky and not originally intended gameplay when you can just allow scripting? Personally, I love it when every skald I fight sounds like a nuclear bomb. It's also great when every 2H melee swaps to shield with perfect timing in between their melee swings. Totally fits in the spirit of their intended design.
May I introduce you to /switch for the assassin case or may I introduce you to the incredibly new keybinds provided by the options screen: "Right Hand Weap" and "Two Handed Weap" for the 2h/shield case.

Magesty wrote: Tedious abilities that were traditionally macro'd like paladin chants should be reworked in some fashion to make the need to script them unnecessary. Nerf/adjust those mechanics that aren't in the spirit of the original game design like weapon swapping from bags and using 1H/shield in between 2H swings. Actively creating an environment that discourages cheating through adjusting mechanics is far better than just giving in to it.
I would in general agree, see what we did for weapon swapping for poisons for example or the pala endu chant, both of those were largely aimed at reducing the need for macros to be effective.

As for this video in particular, we will look into it. The fact that the combat log is toggled on / off on mouse click is at least interesting.

When the game came out, gamma and brightness settings existed and the game makers knew this. I think at best they had nostramo pads for multi function key presses back then and that saw a lot of flack too. I’m just saying, if you require 3rd party software to play your class than maybe it’s not the class for you. It’s not a pride or making myself feel better issue when I talk about gama vs reshade. Gamma and brightness changes are an overall effect. So my daylight is also brighter. Reshade effects certain shades colors and only those, also allowing you to make dungeon class vests easier to recognize thereby giving you an advantage in class recognition. Much like the daoc scout by bysan that you allow people to use. We keep allowing software that gives you an advantage other players don’t have or even know exists. Not everyone has reshade, not everyone has ahk, and not everyone plays on a recent computer with Stock scripting software. However everyone does play with a monitor that can have its brightness adjusted. So do I feel like I am playing more fairly than others, yes. You can say they are both fruits but you are comparing apples to oranges . Just saying, there is a difference.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:41 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Svekt wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:26 AM
Much like the daoc scout by bysan that you allow people to use.

Just to clarify, DAoC Scout has been illegal here since they found out about it, about 9 months ago.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 2:04 AM by Svekt

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:41 AM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:26 AM
Much like the daoc scout by bysan that you allow people to use.

Just to clarify, DAoC Scout has been illegal here since they found out about it, about 9 months ago.

That is frequently debated depending on which dev or GM you ask as I have personally got varied responses whenever I ask about it. That doesn’t mean I’m not wrong. If it’s been publicly posted that it’s not allowed then I never saw it. Doesn’t mean they didn’t openly say you can’t use it, just that I have personally received conflicting responses when inquiring about it.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 2:11 AM by Svekt

Svekt wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 2:04 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:41 AM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:26 AM
Much like the daoc scout by bysan that you allow people to use.

Just to clarify, DAoC Scout has been illegal here since they found out about it, about 9 months ago.

That is frequently debated depending on which dev or GM you ask as I have personally got varied responses whenever I ask about it. That doesn’t mean I’m not wrong. If it’s been publicly posted that it’s not allowed then I never saw it. Doesn’t mean they didn’t openly say you can’t use it, just that I have personally received conflicting responses when inquiring about it.

All this said, it functions solely off AHK and overlay use. If AHK is allowed and this is not, then how are we drawing the line? It literally runs on a AHK script that pulls information from a herald and returns feedback to you on screen. So because it’s appearing on screen and not with herald bot in discord it’s not allowed? Seems like because it’s automated and makes game play easier it’s not allowed, bringing us full circle back to the question of AHK in general.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 3:33 AM by Magesty

gruenes,

I have nothing but respect for you and the Phoenix team. Thank you for taking the time to respond to this topic.

That being said, I don't really agree with the arguments you are presenting and the conclusions you are drawing.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jan 2021 11:48 PM
Not allowing any kind of macro software when a good chunk of the stock keyboard software includes those capabilities is just an outdated rule that just asks to be ignored. The action and when to take it should be what matters, how precisely those actions are taken - be it by pressing 3456 quickly one after the other or having some macro thing do it with just one keypress - should be largely irrelevant. Still, a line has to be drawn somewhere and that line here is effectively just allowing the simplest kind of macro: multiple keys sent per button press.

Modern macro accessibility shouldn't be the point. In my wayward DAoC youth I downloaded a macro program to automate a PL bot. This was circa 2005 and it was neither difficult to set up nor hard to find with a quick search. I knew several people IRL during the '00s that had Nostromo keypads which have features similar to those found in most keyboards today. I don't think claiming that because macroing is a modicum more accessible it makes trying to prevent the use of them arbitrary is a viable conclusion to draw. It is a simple assessment of human nature-- if a reasonable rule is in place some people will always try to break it, and those people are certainly not going to be dissuaded by small barriers of accessibility, but a far more significant portion will simply abide by it because it is the rule.

Let's not pretend that pressing a series of buttons in a row is truly no different from automating it. Maybe I'm unique, but I only really have five fingers I can use on the keyboard, and pressing an individual key costs not only time, but requires one of my fingers relocate itself to the key's location (two if it is on the alt or cntrl bar!). This means that I am unable to, say, consistently abuse positional mechanics throughout a fight if I need to move more fingers away from my movement keys. This is but one example of the benefits of scripting, and it is easy enough to see that there are many more that make this moderation decision far from "irrelevant" in terms of gameplay and, as much as I hate the term, skill expression.

Regardless of what the written rules may be people are going to try to cheat, and undoubtedly cheaters will slip through the cracks, but it should be obvious that catching cheaters in an environment where zero macroing is allowed is much easier than trying to ascertain if one of the 85% of players who script every aspect of what their characters do are adding in conditional language or delays.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jan 2021 11:48 PM
May I introduce you to /switch for the assassin case or may I introduce you to the incredibly new keybinds provided by the options screen: "Right Hand Weap" and "Two Handed Weap" for the 2h/shield case.

I would in general agree, see what we did for weapon swapping for poisons for example or the pala endu chant, both of those were largely aimed at reducing the need for macros to be effective.

I think you are missing the overall point I was trying to make. Weapon swapping to apply every poison isn't a good mechanic, and it isn't in the spirit of the original design of the game, hence why it needs to be macro'd. Swapping to 1H/shield in between 2h swings with no penalty isn't a good mechanic, and it isn't in the spirit of the original design of the game. Much like buff bots, these are advantages that players have found and established into the meta game. They don't make the gameplay more enjoyable for the player or those they are fighting. I'd even argue that on average they do quite the opposite. I think instead of saying, "Yeah, well, you have to weapon swap to be competitive." it should be, "Like buff bots, this mechanic really doesn't make sense. It is clunky and clearly wasn't intended. How can we change it?" I'm not going to pretend that is a simple question to answer, but I think it is the right one to be asking.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 4:12 AM by Svekt

Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 3:33 AM
gruenes,

I have nothing but respect for you and the Phoenix team. Thank you for taking the time to respond to this topic.

That being said, I don't really agree with the arguments you are presenting and the conclusions you are drawing.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jan 2021 11:48 PM
Not allowing any kind of macro software when a good chunk of the stock keyboard software includes those capabilities is just an outdated rule that just asks to be ignored. The action and when to take it should be what matters, how precisely those actions are taken - be it by pressing 3456 quickly one after the other or having some macro thing do it with just one keypress - should be largely irrelevant. Still, a line has to be drawn somewhere and that line here is effectively just allowing the simplest kind of macro: multiple keys sent per button press.

Modern macro accessibility shouldn't be the point. In my wayward DAoC youth I downloaded a macro program to automate a PL bot. This was circa 2005 and it was neither difficult to set up nor hard to find with a quick search. I knew several people IRL during the '00s that had Nostromo keypads which have features similar to those found in most keyboards today. I don't think claiming that because macroing is a modicum more accessible it makes trying to prevent the use of them arbitrary is a viable conclusion to draw. It is a simple assessment of human nature-- if a reasonable rule is in place some people will always try to break it, and those people are certainly not going to be dissuaded by small barriers of accessibility, but a far more significant portion will simply abide by it because it is the rule.

Let's not pretend that pressing a series of buttons in a row is truly no different from automating it. Maybe I'm unique, but I only really have five fingers I can use on the keyboard, and pressing an individual key costs not only time, but requires one of my fingers relocate itself to the key's location (two if it is on the alt or cntrl bar!). This means that I am unable to, say, consistently abuse positional mechanics throughout a fight if I need to move more fingers away from my movement keys. This is but one example of the benefits of scripting, and it is easy enough to see that there are many more that make this moderation decision far from "irrelevant" in terms of gameplay and, as much as I hate the term, skill expression.

Regardless of what the written rules may be people are going to try to cheat, and undoubtedly cheaters will slip through the cracks, but it should be obvious that catching cheaters in an environment where zero macroing is allowed is much easier than trying to ascertain if one of the 85% of players who script every aspect of what their characters do are adding in conditional language or delays.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jan 2021 11:48 PM
May I introduce you to /switch for the assassin case or may I introduce you to the incredibly new keybinds provided by the options screen: "Right Hand Weap" and "Two Handed Weap" for the 2h/shield case.

I would in general agree, see what we did for weapon swapping for poisons for example or the pala endu chant, both of those were largely aimed at reducing the need for macros to be effective.

I think you are missing the overall point I was trying to make. Weapon swapping to apply every poison isn't a good mechanic, and it isn't in the spirit of the original design of the game, hence why it needs to be macro'd. Swapping to 1H/shield in between 2h swings with no penalty isn't a good mechanic, and it isn't in the spirit of the original design of the game. Much like buff bots, these are advantages that players have found and established into the meta game. They don't make the gameplay more enjoyable for the player or those they are fighting. I'd even argue that on average they do quite the opposite. I think instead of saying, "Yeah, well, you have to weapon swap to be competitive." it should be, "Like buff bots, this mechanic really doesn't make sense. It is clunky and clearly wasn't intended. How can we change it?" I'm not going to pretend that is a simple question to answer, but I think it is the right one to be asking.

Amen brother.

Also worth noting is room for human error. In the heat of battle if you have to manually weapon drag and drop vs it being fully automated you are more likely to have a human error: ie grab the wrong weapon or fumble dropping it successfully while watching the fight.

Yes there is room for human error when writing the script but once that error is noticed it is tweaked and zero error after.

Bottom line is ahk not only makes it easier to play but also easier to perform flawless or perfect play. Back in the day being a successful stealth meant you had to be able to drag and drop weapons and time it well. That itself is what makes assassins so strong, was that the player behind them also had to be strong.

As it stands now, anyone with half a brain can write a script and automate half their play.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 4:57 AM by Fiatil

Magesty said it perfectly.

The problem is that it just leads to really poor feeling game design. It's hard for me to believe that ye olde Mythic wanted spear Heroes to "swing their spear, switch to sword and board to block while somehow recovering from their spear swing, switch back to spear for big damage, rinse, repeat". Because timing that to its full benefit while also doing "normal RvR stuff" requires ahk and macros and all of the stuff that is very common here.

The main reason there are so many archers, is because they're a solo class that doesn't require 15 weaponswaps like an assassin. They can benefit from it, but it doesn't feel necessary like it does to compete as an assassin on this server. I know plenty of people who want to play assassins but think it's super unfun to have to set all of that up, and feels very mechanical. It's like a dark secret lurking in the background of Phoenix -- the server is otherwise amazing and attracts new/returning players, but the game and server info don't tell you about everyone using all of these external programs to play the game like a hyper robot. Once they find out the reaction typically isn't great, and it doesn't seem desirable. It seems like it would be relatively simple, given all of the cool stuff you've pulled off with the code, to just penalize all of this constant weapon swapping stuff (mechanically in game, not via bans) and go back to rewarding more...human feeling skill in DAoC. I understand that's controversial, because yeah it's DAoC. It seems like an easy win for "classic feeling" DAoC though.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 4:58 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Svekt wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 2:04 AM
That is frequently debated depending on which dev or GM you ask as I have personally got varied responses whenever I ask about it. That doesn’t mean I’m not wrong. If it’s been publicly posted that it’s not allowed then I never saw it. Doesn’t mean they didn’t openly say you can’t use it, just that I have personally received conflicting responses when inquiring about it.

Okay then, objection rescinded.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 5:22 AM by Svekt

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 4:58 AM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 2:04 AM
That is frequently debated depending on which dev or GM you ask as I have personally got varied responses whenever I ask about it. That doesn’t mean I’m not wrong. If it’s been publicly posted that it’s not allowed then I never saw it. Doesn’t mean they didn’t openly say you can’t use it, just that I have personally received conflicting responses when inquiring about it.

Okay then, objection rescinded.

Nah man, objection noted. You could be very right on this and I could have just missed it. But it does need to be clearly stated and advertised. And if it’s not allowed and normal AHK is I just don’t see a difference

Fri 29 Jan 2021 6:22 AM by Simon73

damn guys,

i just asked this because i'm left handed and i use only 4 buttons on my warden for some hand problems... didn't want to create such a thread

Fri 29 Jan 2021 7:43 AM by Aprox

Why not just make an ingame option to bind several actions to the same button and ban all scripting? I dont know much about how daoc is written, but i would expect it to be a simple addition to the code. we allready have the qbind command...just expand it with a delay of 0.1 sec between execution of abilitys. or something like that, u got my point, i think.

What i really wonder about is, how can the DEVs/GMs track scripting? Is it possible at all without somebody beeing stupid enough to post a video of it`?

Fri 29 Jan 2021 7:55 AM by Astaa

Aprox wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 7:43 AM
Why not just make an ingame option to bind several actions to the same button and ban all scripting? I dont know much about how daoc is written, but i would expect it to be a simple addition to the code. we allready have the qbind command...just expand it with a delay of 0.1 sec between execution of abilitys. or something like that, u got my point, i think.

What i really wonder about is, how can the DEVs/GMs track scripting? Is it possible at all without somebody beeing stupid enough to post a video of it`?

That would be a change to the client, not something the team can get into.

As for weapon swapping, I hadn't realised people use AHK for such a simple process, /switch is a brilliant custom function already. I can see what a massive advantage it would be having it close to automated. The same could be said for a lot of functions. Which then brings me on to, why do people even play if they get a macro/script to do the work for them?

It's an old game, with old game clunkiness, part of its charm. I used to play WOW and that had masses and masses of mods that helped with raiding and pvp. You just can't raid high-end content without them, custom boss warnings, healing mods, threat mods etc and the game was pretty much designed around that...DAOC isn't and shouldn't be.

Edit: Now I get that there are plenty of QOL changes that it could be argued are not in the spirit of the game, /switch being one of them but there has to be a line somewhere, surely using a 3rd party program to effectively automate functions, any functions, is one them?

Fri 29 Jan 2021 8:23 AM by dbeattie71

Yikes, so much misinformation in this one lol. You don’t need an if or ahk to do some of that stuff. Naga makes most of that easy.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 8:26 AM by Astaa

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 8:23 AM
Yikes, so much misinformation in this one lol. You don’t need an if or ahk to do some of that stuff. Naga makes most of that easy.

Not everyone has a £100 mouse

Or the understanding of external macros.

I have a huntsman elite keyboard and used to have a Naga trinity mouse, until the useless thing broke (common double click thing with mechanical contacts) and now have a basilisk, but then I have the income to allow that. Not everyone does and they certainly shouldn't be deemed acceptable just because they exist.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 9:07 AM by Noashakra

Yep, there are so many tools available for people who can invest that it makes no sense to not allow some kind of tool to help other people.
My mouse and keyboard allow everything AHK offers.

Also I am laughing my ass off when I read people use AHK to switch weapons. It's a lie and you show that you don't understand the game.
You switch weapons depends on the poisons resist / weapon proc / etc.
It's also useless to reaply at each swing on phoenix so I don't know why you would do that (dot doesn't tick with each swing here to compensate).

How is weapon switch not in the spirit of the game? You always had to possibility to switch in combat. You do know that hib LW has access to two type of damages, and there is only one 2h slot, and people switched weapons since the start depending on the targets? lol...

Fri 29 Jan 2021 9:34 AM by

gruenesschaf

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 9:07 AM
How is weapon switch not in the spirit of the game? You always had to possibility to switch in combat. You do know that hib LW has access to two type of damages, and there is only one 2h slot, and people switched weapons since the start depending on the targets? lol...

I don't think many people complain about assassin weapon switch since the removal of envenom dot ticks on reapplication, while without /switch it could kind of be argued it was "skillful", by uth2 it became mandatory and hence /switch was added which in turn however has really highlighted how degenerate the dot tick is with every swing.
Also I don't think anybody complaints about lw weapon switching to have the better damage type, the silly and (hopefully) unintended kind of weapon switching is to hit with 2h and then switch to shield for the duration of the swing delay and then back to 2h to hit again, practically having your cake and eating it too via the full defenses of your shield spec and offensive of your 2h spec.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:07 AM by Noashakra

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 9:34 AM
I don't think many people complain about assassin weapon switch since the removal of envenom dot ticks on reapplication, while without /switch it could kind of be argued it was "skillful", by uth2 it became mandatory and hence /switch was added which in turn however has really highlighted how degenerate the dot tick is with every swing.
Also I don't think anybody complaints about lw weapon switching to have the better damage type, the silly and (hopefully) unintended kind of weapon switching is to hit with 2h and then switch to shield for the duration of the swing delay and then back to 2h to hit again, practically having your cake and eating it too via the full defenses of your shield spec and offensive of your 2h spec.

I agree with you, but the shield swap was always possible, and you don't need a /switch command, you just need to put the shield in your bar.
Regarding the weapon switch, someone said it was never part of the spirit of the game, I was just adressing that point. Light tanks always had to switch their weapons to slam and deal damage. Hero and champion had to do it too depending on their target.

Saying it was never in the spirit of the game is a fallacy.
"it isn't in the spirit of the original design of the game" yet it was always a game mechanic of DAOC and part of the game balance.
If it wasn't in the spirit of the original design, it would have never been there...

Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:22 AM by

gruenesschaf

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:07 AM
Saying it was never in the spirit of the game is a fallacy.
"it isn't in the spirit of the original design of the game" yet it was always a game mecanic of DAOC and part of the game balance.

Envenom dot tick on reapplication was also always a daoc mechanic, minstrel being able to charm pretty much anything forever while keeping the charm button pressed was also pretty much always a daoc mechanic. Neither case is desirable.
The existence of something is not necessarily indicative of it being in the spirit of the game or not, really all it takes is for something to become slightly more widespread to be noticed and then used by a critical mass of players to become an issue. See volley assist, gtae assist, gt ra stacking.

That is kind of the issue when playing something for much longer than how it originally existed, it's what uthgard and we as well as wow classic / vanilla shards have pretty much shown, any game mechanic that can be abused by taking it to the extreme will eventually be abused.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:26 AM by Noashakra

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:22 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:07 AM
Saying it was never in the spirit of the game is a fallacy.
"it isn't in the spirit of the original design of the game" yet it was always a game mecanic of DAOC and part of the game balance.

Envenom dot tick on reapplication was also always a daoc mechanic, minstrel being able to charm pretty much anything forever while keeping the charm button pressed was also pretty much always a daoc mechanic. Neither case is desirable.
The existence of something is not necessarily indicative of it being in the spirit of the game or not, really all it takes is for something to become slightly more widespread to be noticed and then used by a critical mass of players to become an issue. See volley assist, gtae assist, gt ra stacking.

That is kind of the issue when playing something for much longer than how it originally existed, it's what uthgard and we as well as wow classic / vanilla shards have pretty much shown, any game mechanic that can be abused by taking it to the extreme will eventually be abused.

Again I agree with you, but I was just pointing out that it was part of the original design, so it was part of the "original spirit of the game".
Nowhere did I stated if it was a good thing or a bad thing.

I think your approach to the assassin dot it the right one to limit the insane DPS it had, and at the same time make the class more accessible to people.
It's the same for light tanks, switching shield from the inventory was annoying and not fun during a fight.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:35 AM by

gruenesschaf

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:26 AM
Again I agree with you, but I was just pointing out that it was part of the original design, so it was part of the "original spirit of the game".
Nowhere did I stated if it was a good thing or a bad thing.

One could argue if it was in the spirit of the game it wouldn't have been changed later on. Envenom was changed entirely by making it an offensive proc with 100% chance and 1 charge and a cd, pretty much all spells, at least ras though, received a target cap. Ench dps debuff and bd resist debuffs no longer interrupt. Pala / pulse stuff in general became 100% active not requiring any macroing.
Of course one can now argue about the exact solutions but the fact that they exist kind of show that something about the original effect was not desired.

If you ignore those later changes you are getting into really weird territory where you'd have to justify why the la nerf is in the original spirit of the game, or if you want to go back even further, why midgard has access to endurance.
Many of the early decisions where great, many were just awful yet most of those have been fixed overtime while introducing new ones, like the original warlock design, or no los banshee bridge casts which also have eventually been fixed.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:35 AM by Sepplord

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:26 AM
Again I agree with you, but I was just pointing out that it was part of the original design, so it was part of the "original spirit of the game".

Because all gamedesigners always do everything correctly and perfectly capture the spirit of their game designwise...
Come on

Let's just stay with the Shield/2h swapping mechanic. You really think the initial spirit of the gamedesigners was that a shieldtank can have all the defensive benefits of 1h/shield while simultaneusly attacking with their 2h?
I heavily doubt that their vision/spirit of the Shieldclasses was that

Fri 29 Jan 2021 11:12 AM by

Uthred

Svekt wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 2:04 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:41 AM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:26 AM
Much like the daoc scout by bysan that you allow people to use.

Just to clarify, DAoC Scout has been illegal here since they found out about it, about 9 months ago.

That is frequently debated depending on which dev or GM you ask as I have personally got varied responses whenever I ask about it. That doesn’t mean I’m not wrong. If it’s been publicly posted that it’s not allowed then I never saw it. Doesn’t mean they didn’t openly say you can’t use it, just that I have personally received conflicting responses when inquiring about it.

DAOC SCOUT IS NOT ALLOWED. I hope that helped to clarify.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 12:12 PM by Noashakra

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:35 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:26 AM
Again I agree with you, but I was just pointing out that it was part of the original design, so it was part of the "original spirit of the game".

Because all gamedesigners always do everything correctly and perfectly capture the spirit of their game designwise...
Come on

Let's just stay with the Shield/2h swapping mechanic. You really think the initial spirit of the gamedesigners was that a shieldtank can have all the defensive benefits of 1h/shield while simultaneusly attacking with their 2h?
I heavily doubt that their vision/spirit of the Shieldclasses was that

I didn't say that, stop stawmaning people, I am tired of this shit. I didn't make ANY judgement about if was good or bad.

I was just pointing out that the argument that "it wasn't part of the original spirit of the game" is false, because the 1h/2h swap was always a thing and classes were balanced around that. If it wasn't part of their vision spirit, they would not have allowed this mechanic, period. You are projecting what YOU think should be the spirit of the game, facts are this mechanic is here since the release and they never intended to removed it.

I am just stating facts, if you think something is not part of your vision for the game, you don't implement it. If it's good or bad, that's another subject.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 12:18 PM by Sepplord

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 12:12 PM
I didn't say that, stop stawmaning people, I am tired of this shit. I didn't make ANY judgement about if was good or bad.

I was just pointing out that the argument that "it wasn't part of the original spirit of the game" is false, because the 1h/2h swap was always a thing and classes were balanced around that. If it wasn't part of their vision spirit, they would not have allowed this mechanic, period.

Every single gamedesigner will confirm that their design and intention is often completely butchered and misused by players. Just because something is possible in a games design doesn't mean everything you can do with it is according to the spirit of the game.

I didn't strawman anything...you claimed that "because it was in the initial design it must mean that it was the intended spirit of the game". That is in my personal opinion just false, and that was what i called out. I didn't go into good or bad at all (that could be you strawmanning btw. but i dont think you misunderstood on purpose).

I didn't ask you if you think it is good or bad...i asked you if you believe that example was the spirit of the game, aka the intention of the gamecreators. It is a fact that it was the design, but i personally really doubt it was the spirit they had in mind.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 12:22 PM by Noashakra

You think something = not a fact = you would have to show us dev/game designers saying it wasn't part of their vision (you know, the burden of proof)
Weapon swap mechanic implemented since the release and never removed = fact

We can stop here

Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:06 PM by Sepplord

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 12:22 PM
You think something = not a fact = you would have to show us dev/game designers saying it wasn't part of their vision (you know, the burden of proof)
Weapon swap mechanic implemented since the release and never removed = fact

Sepplord wrote: It is a fact that it was the design, but i personally really doubt it was the spirit they had in mind.

See how i intentionally distinguish between "fact = it was the design" and "personal belief = it wasn't the spirit"

You are either intentionally trolling here, or have a problem with the english language.
Ifn it is the latter it would be really helpful if you stopped kneehjerking reactions and "getting tired" of things, and instead put in effort to make sure you aren't just misreading things. There is no problem with being bad in english, but then you shouldn't barge into english discussion like a know-it-all and get upset when others disagree

Fri 29 Jan 2021 2:11 PM by Magesty

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:06 PM
You are either intentionally trolling here, or have a problem with the english language.

Don’t engage with him.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 2:24 PM by gotwqqd

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:06 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 12:22 PM
You think something = not a fact = you would have to show us dev/game designers saying it wasn't part of their vision (you know, the burden of proof)
Weapon swap mechanic implemented since the release and never removed = fact

Sepplord wrote: It is a fact that it was the design, but i personally really doubt it was the spirit they had in mind.
See how i intentionally distinguish between "fact = it was the design" and "personal belief = it wasn't the spirit"

You are either intentionally trolling here, or have a problem with the english language.
Ifn it is the latter it would be really helpful if you stopped kneehjerking reactions and "getting tired" of things, and instead put in effort to make sure you aren't just misreading things. There is no problem with being bad in english, but then you shouldn't barge into english discussion like a know-it-all and get upset when others disagree

he’s simply vehement about defending any change that would impair his overpowered class

Fri 29 Jan 2021 2:44 PM by Lollie

Oh god, you've gone and done it now! Next there will be someone coming on to issues 1v1 challenges!

Fri 29 Jan 2021 4:33 PM by Astaa

Can people not just stop mud slinging because people happen to have a different opinion? We aren't children here ffs.

Debate is healthy, throwing insults at each other is completely pointless and doesn't get anything resolved.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 6:01 PM by Noashakra

"I think" "I doubt" are not arguments. The facts are the mechanic is in the game since the start. The game was balanced with this in mind, there are no game designer on record saying switching wasn't part of the original view.

Stop using what YOU think was the vision of the game devs had as an argument against the weapon switch mechanic.

he’s simply vehement about defending any change that would impair his overpowered class

LMAO, I just explained why your argument was fallacious, to elevate the disscussion. Nowhere in this post did I say anything for or against the machanic itself. You have no proof, otherwise I am waiting for them. We can only use facts. Facts is you can switch since day 1 and they never changed that, when they had years to "fix" it. The facts, even if they don't prove if it was part or not of the "original spirit", tend to show that it was because they never changed the mechanic.

You see, I never once said that I think it was part of the original spirit or not, lol. I don't assert things I don't know.

But yeah it's my fault, I should stop spending my time and energy trying to make people better thinkers.

Funny how people that always say "stealther are derailling every post" are the one doing it all the time, because I specifically used a hero/champion as an example. I wasn't even trying to argue for or against switch. Projection as always.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 6:18 PM by Svekt

Uthred wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 11:12 AM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 2:04 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:41 AM
Svekt wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 1:26 AM
Much like the daoc scout by bysan that you allow people to use.

Just to clarify, DAoC Scout has been illegal here since they found out about it, about 9 months ago.

That is frequently debated depending on which dev or GM you ask as I have personally got varied responses whenever I ask about it. That doesn’t mean I’m not wrong. If it’s been publicly posted that it’s not allowed then I never saw it. Doesn’t mean they didn’t openly say you can’t use it, just that I have personally received conflicting responses when inquiring about it.

DAOC SCOUT IS NOT ALLOWED. I hope that helped to clarify.

Thank you Uthred!

Fri 29 Jan 2021 6:50 PM by Sepplord

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 6:01 PM
"I think" "I doubt" are not arguments. The facts are the mechanic is in the game since the start. The game was balanced with this in mind, there are no game designer on record saying switching wasn't part of the original view.

Stop using what YOU think was the vision of the game devs had as an argument against the weapon switch mechanic.

I didnt say anything against the weapon Switch mechanic. Seriously....the only one constantly replying to assumptions is you.

You made a blatantly wrong Statement, and i called that Out. Instead of reflecting in what i am saying you are digging in your heals and strawmanning (it has become more clear it is intentional) because you THINK that i want to get weaponswapping changed. To repeat: i don't care If it gets changed or not. What i care about is that the discussion is logical and not driven by false statements.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 7:09 PM by Noashakra

Dude, I think you are doing it on purpose at this point. You are either trolling or you are dumb. Nowhere in my post did I say anything about you being against the switch mechanic. I wasn't replying to you, but to the argument of magesty. Because as you can see, when I did reply to you, I quoted you. Strawman strawman strawman strawmaning strawman.
My only point was against the "it was part of the original spirit of the game".
I am done here.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 7:10 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 7:09 PM
I am done here.

We all know that isn't true.

Unfortunately.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 9:04 PM by Freedomcall

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 8:23 AM
Yikes, so much misinformation in this one lol. You don’t need an if or ahk to do some of that stuff. Naga makes most of that easy.

but does Naga itself make it possible to automatically /face and start healing when double-clicking your groupmate in healerhelper?
Honest question.

Fri 29 Jan 2021 10:22 PM by CowwoC

Thread escalated quickly.

Isn't the biggest problem, even if devs wanted to forbid ahk and reshade(?), they never could trace it unless you stream it on twitch and devs catch it up or you stay afk as pally and rotate chants automatically for an hour for example? People on discord don't even hide that they use all of that, even with the forbidden stuff like conditions and loop. You also can find that on twitch or youtube.

Why is that? Because most people go to youtube and use the script stuff from that one guy who explains ahk and he has many stuff in it which are actually against the rules. People either just don't care or don't know it better i guess.

Sat 30 Jan 2021 5:33 PM by stewbeedoo

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 9:04 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 8:23 AM
Yikes, so much misinformation in this one lol. You don’t need an if or ahk to do some of that stuff. Naga makes most of that easy.

but does Naga itself make it possible to automatically /face and start healing when double-clicking your groupmate in healerhelper?
Honest question.

I've never played a healer, but I am pretty sure the healer helper does a /face when you select a group member. I don't think it heals them - just makes selecting easier.

Sun 31 Jan 2021 4:17 AM by Svekt

[/quote]
I've never played a healer, but I am pretty sure the healer helper does a /face when you select a group member. I don't think it heals them - just makes selecting easier.
[/quote]

I can speak for Bobs UI and Bysan UI <at least the version I use> you still have to manually face after clicking when using these healer helpers. Bobs does have a healer helper skin with a face button in the center of the healer helper but you would have to click it after targeting the group member.

I currently run Bysan UI. It doesn’t do anything other than make that group member your active target. I typically only combine face and heal if I’m in motion to stop movement and be able to cast immediately. Honestly I would get annoyed if it made me face someone automatically if I clicked on a players name in the helper. I do this occasionally to make sure everyone is with me, because if they are out of range it won’t select them. So if I was beginning to drive away yelling stick and sprint and clicked on a group member it would immediately stop my driving and face them. Perhaps the function is combined with a particular mouse button click through scripting. But this is all speculation at this point.

Sun 31 Jan 2021 8:07 AM by Astaa

I'm actually surprised a healer needs any sort of macro help... select person in healer helper window (just a larger mini group window...) press your face button (I have face and stick mapped to mouse button 4 and 5) but any keyboard button would do, press whatever ability you want to cast, face is optional anyway as you don't need to be facing your target, except for getting a better view of what's happening to the target. Do scripters to anything themselves these days or just mash a load of script buttons?

Sat 6 Feb 2021 3:29 PM by dbeattie71

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 9:04 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jan 2021 8:23 AM
Yikes, so much misinformation in this one lol. You don’t need an if or ahk to do some of that stuff. Naga makes most of that easy.

but does Naga itself make it possible to automatically /face and start healing when double-clicking your groupmate in healerhelper?
Honest question.

Probably, have a macro run on double click. The UI takes care of targeting. You can qbind /face to a key, say F1. So the macro does F1 and then whatever key heal is.

Sat 6 Feb 2021 5:58 PM by gotwqqd

I’ve encountered responses to attacks that seem far to quick and with determining factors

Also it seems I’m often stunned at the last few seconds of a mezz

Sun 7 Feb 2021 4:19 AM by Forlornhope

Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 31 Jan 2021 8:07 AM
I'm actually surprised a healer needs any sort of macro help... select person in healer helper window (just a larger mini group window...) press your face button (I have face and stick mapped to mouse button 4 and 5) but any keyboard button would do, press whatever ability you want to cast, face is optional anyway as you don't need to be facing your target, except for getting a better view of what's happening to the target. Do scripters to anything themselves these days or just mash a load of script buttons?

Was thinking the same thing reading through the thread. I do the exact same thing you do, even bind stick/face to the same buttons.