Balancing - A suggestion for Melee Snares

Hi all,

With some of the recent changes to classes, in my opinion, it's time to make melee snares generic.

Melee snares are one of the most powerful tools in the game. It is the only form of CC that has no immunity. I believe at this point in the server, it should be a generic duration and style a crossed all realms.

My suggestion is as follows - I may be wrong on some of these ideas, however anything would be a step forward.

1) Remove any anytime snare. (except for garrote as that is a class design that all 3 assassins have access to.)

2) Make all melee snares a 15 second duration.

3) All pure det tanks have access to a back and side snare in all melee lines. (Zerks/Mercs/BMs in DW) - (Savages exempt, no snare in h2h.)

That's about it - I believe it will make all realms more balanced.

What this will achieve -
Opens up spec's to other weapon lines for Midgard.
Removes long duration snares such as Conquer.
Opens up the two hand line to arms.
Brings all realms in balance with Hibernia's snares.

Cheers,

Tue 19 Jan 2021 3:58 PM by pwneato

Couldn't agree more. I love the diversity in this game. That being said, snares end up tethering you to certain builds.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 4:06 PM by Tulpa

Except that root immunity is snare immunity and Hib has 2 classes with shit for snares in their primary weapon lines VW and Champion so its not as imbalanced as you make it out to be.

One of our support toons has ZERO crowd control other than snare, where other realms support all have some other form of control mez, root, or stun,

If you give everyone snare buff then warden needs other CC... which I have been calling for forever. (shield spec please).

Just deal with it the realms are different if you want snare spec for it.

JMHO

Tue 19 Jan 2021 4:35 PM by opossum12

Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 4:06 PM
Except that root immunity is snare immunity and Hib has 2 classes with shit for snares in their primary weapon lines VW and Champion so its not as imbalanced as you make it our to be.

One of our support toons has ZERO crowd control other than snare, where other realms support all have some other form of control mez, root, or stun,

If you give everyone snare buff then warden needs other CC... which I have been calling for forever. (shield spec please).

Just deal with it the realms are different if you want snare spec for it.

JMHO

Not sure how the Friar has more cc than a warden? Druid cc is way better than a stun from cleric? I think so. I don't think your point is valid.

However, I think melee snares are totally fine right now. Maybe giving some positional snares in sword and axe for mid to make it competitive with hammer. I agree that playing mid is like hammer is the only spec, which sucks and prevents diversification.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 4:37 PM by crepuscular

Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 4:06 PM
Except that root immunity is snare immunity and Hib has 2 classes with shit for snares in their primary weapon lines VW and Champion so its not as imbalanced as you make it our to be.

Champion at least can spec pierce or blade with side snares and slam or numb. Large wep spec line may not have back snare but it does have frontal style which can be effectively used and if you try and run away from them you can easily get a 9s backstun + ST and youre not going anywhere.

savages can use the MH hammer as backsnare

Tue 19 Jan 2021 5:07 PM by Nephamael

1) Remove any anytime snare. (except for garrote as that is a class design that all 3 assassins have access to.)

2) Make all melee snares a 15 second duration.

I dont mind arms having anytime or the 2 style thrust anytime... its not that easy to land with a detaunt opener.

I generally agree with your point, but i disagree on making all snares 15 sec.

Some snares are harder to hit and some are easier, some snares are from slower weapons than others.

But you are right, in general snares should see a rebalancing.

All easy fast snares and 1 style anytime snares to 12s duration.

All positional 2h snares to 15s

All 2 style snares to 25s

All 2 style 2h snares to 32s

could be a better approach to keep things fair.

(peeling with 1.5 swing speed vs a 5.x 2h or pole 2 style backsnare needs to make a difference in reward, else only 1h snares are viable)

Tue 19 Jan 2021 5:27 PM by Tulpa

"Not sure how the Friar has more cc than a warden? Druid cc is way better than a stun from cleric? I think so. I don't think your point is valid."

Friar has rear and side, and side last 30% longer than wardens. Clerics get stun AND mez if they spec for it.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 5:48 PM by ExcretusMaximus

jsx wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 3:51 PM
Opens up the two hand line to arms.

They already have rear and side snares in 2-hand.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:04 PM by Sagz

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 4:35 PM
Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 4:06 PM
Except that root immunity is snare immunity and Hib has 2 classes with shit for snares in their primary weapon lines VW and Champion so its not as imbalanced as you make it our to be.

One of our support toons has ZERO crowd control other than snare, where other realms support all have some other form of control mez, root, or stun,

If you give everyone snare buff then warden needs other CC... which I have been calling for forever. (shield spec please).

Just deal with it the realms are different if you want snare spec for it.

JMHO

Not sure how the Friar has more cc than a warden? Druid cc is way better than a stun from cleric? I think so. I don't think your point is valid.

However, I think melee snares are totally fine right now. Maybe giving some positional snares in sword and axe for mid to make it competitive with hammer. I agree that playing mid is like hammer is the only spec, which sucks and prevents diversification.

I believe he is referring to ST, but in reality wardens get TWF, and shammy get Ichor and a castable root + disease. warden side snare is incredibly easy (especially with bubble) not sure the complaint.

But while druid CC is better than the cleric, it is only nice if used right, I see way too many druids spamming aoe root and hitting det tanks rendering them unsnareable. At least the stun doesn't make them unsnareable.

and really F diversity in mid, conquer is the best snare in the game.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:21 PM by jsx

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 5:48 PM
jsx wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 3:51 PM
Opens up the two hand line to arms.

They already have rear and side snares in 2-hand.

Correct - They just can't spec it because they have to go pole.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:33 PM by ExcretusMaximus

jsx wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:21 PM
Correct - They just can't spec it because they have to go pole.

No they don't, they choose to go pole; both specs are valid and have their strengths and weaknesses.

Also, your argument makes zero sense. You say equalizing snares will "open up" the two-hand spec for Armsmen, when they already have the snares you want to give them.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 7:52 PM by jsx

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:33 PM
jsx wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:21 PM
Correct - They just can't spec it because they have to go pole.

No they don't, they choose to go pole; both specs are valid and have their strengths and weaknesses.

Also, your argument makes zero sense. You say equalizing snares will "open up" the two-hand spec for Armsmen, when they already have the snares you want to give them.

If this was true you would see many armsmen going 2h. You would also see Axe Warriors, Sword Warriors, Sword Skalds, Sword Zerkers... truth is, they don't exist because it's a worse spec. (In the higher tier competitive play.)

The whole point of this post is to add diversity to other spec lines. This requires additional snares to be added to other weaponlines.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 8:49 PM by opossum12

Tulpa wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 5:27 PM
"Not sure how the Friar has more cc than a warden? Druid cc is way better than a stun from cleric? I think so. I don't think your point is valid."

Friar has rear and side, and side last 30% longer than wardens. Clerics get stun AND mez if they spec for it.

Seriously, you say friars have more cc cause they have more snares than a side snare which is essentially an anytime snare?

CLerics don't spec smite, at least be coherent with specs people actually use if you want the others to take you seriously.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 8:50 PM by opossum12

jsx wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 7:52 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:33 PM
jsx wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:21 PM
Correct - They just can't spec it because they have to go pole.

No they don't, they choose to go pole; both specs are valid and have their strengths and weaknesses.

Also, your argument makes zero sense. You say equalizing snares will "open up" the two-hand spec for Armsmen, when they already have the snares you want to give them.

If this was true you would see many armsmen going 2h. You would also see Axe Warriors, Sword Warriors, Sword Skalds, Sword Zerkers... truth is, they don't exist because it's a worse spec. (In the higher tier competitive play.)

The whole point of this post is to add diversity to other spec lines. This requires additional snares to be added to other weaponlines.

We get it, you want a snare added to the axe and sword line to get slash damage available to you. It's a fair point, but don't need to reinvent the wheel when you can just add a back snare in axe and a side snare in sword...

Tue 19 Jan 2021 9:37 PM by jsx

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 8:50 PM
jsx wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 7:52 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:33 PM
jsx wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:21 PM
Correct - They just can't spec it because they have to go pole.

No they don't, they choose to go pole; both specs are valid and have their strengths and weaknesses.

Also, your argument makes zero sense. You say equalizing snares will "open up" the two-hand spec for Armsmen, when they already have the snares you want to give them.

If this was true you would see many armsmen going 2h. You would also see Axe Warriors, Sword Warriors, Sword Skalds, Sword Zerkers... truth is, they don't exist because it's a worse spec. (In the higher tier competitive play.)

The whole point of this post is to add diversity to other spec lines. This requires additional snares to be added to other weaponlines.

We get it, you want a snare added to the axe and sword line to get slash damage available to you. It's a fair point, but don't need to reinvent the wheel when you can just add a back snare in axe and a side snare in sword...

Very fair - I said at the start my idea is not 100% right.

There will have to be some exemptions (Like hand to hand, Large Weapon, Scythe.)

Although Mez & roots are all generic durations crossed realms. Why not create a standard duration for snares?

Tue 19 Jan 2021 9:48 PM by Hector

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:33 PM
jsx wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:21 PM
Correct - They just can't spec it because they have to go pole.

No they don't, they choose to go pole; both specs are valid and have their strengths and weaknesses.

Also, your argument makes zero sense. You say equalizing snares will "open up" the two-hand spec for Armsmen, when they already have the snares you want to give them.

He is proposing eliminating anytime snare. Nobody in their right mind would chose 2H for positional only (back/side) snares when they can have an anytime snare in polearm. That's why they have to go polearm over 2H. His argument makes perfect sense you're just being a contrarian like you always are

Tue 19 Jan 2021 11:48 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Hector wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 9:48 PM
He is proposing eliminating anytime snare. Nobody in their right mind would chose 2H for positional only (back/side) snares when they can have an anytime snare in polearm. That's why they have to go polearm over 2H. His argument makes perfect sense you're just being a contrarian like you always are

Because that extra 60° arc is the end of the world, right? If you can't land a snare on someone when you have 83% of their model to do it with, you suck. Pretending Pole is the only choice because of Crippling Blow is disingenuous and you know it.

A contrarian, am I? Well, you... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6B2W91ZWks

Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:21 AM by easytoremember

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 11:48 PM
Hector wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 9:48 PM
He is proposing eliminating anytime snare. Nobody in their right mind would chose 2H for positional only (back/side) snares when they can have an anytime snare in polearm. That's why they have to go polearm over 2H. His argument makes perfect sense you're just being a contrarian like you always are
Because that extra 60° arc is the end of the world, right? If you can't land a snare on someone when you have 83% of their model to do it with, you suck. Pretending Pole is the only choice because of Crippling Blow is disingenuous and you know it.

you're going to rob someone of their basic bodily functions making iq-draining posts like this

Wed 20 Jan 2021 10:05 AM by byron

I love tank playstyle but for me the melee snares are quite abused on this server. A good start should be give an immunity timer. As a light tank it is already hard to remain "sticked" to your target, if you are chain snared (plus other for of CCs like slam, root, mezz, dd snare, pets with stun, etc..), it is quite impossible and this is one of the reason (but not the only one) for which often a caster group is more effective.
Then, as a Midgard player, having snare styles also to other weapon would help diversity and easy access to slash damage, now we are bounded to crush... I would love having my zerk with two axes

Wed 20 Jan 2021 11:57 AM by ExcretusMaximus

byron wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 10:05 AM
A good start should be give an immunity timer. As a light tank it is already hard to remain "sticked" to your target, if you are chain snared (plus other for of CCs like slam, root, mezz, dd snare, pets with stun, etc..), it is quite impossible and this is one of the reason (but not the only one) for which often a caster group is more effective.

You think you'll have an easier time staying on a target if chain snaring is removed? Good luck sticking anything when they can outrun you because you're out of endurance from sprinting and styling five times, and their bar is still full because all they're doing is running.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:24 PM by byron

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 11:57 AM
You think you'll have an easier time staying on a target if chain snaring is removed? Good luck sticking anything when they can outrun you because you're out of endurance from sprinting and styling five times, and their bar is still full because all they're doing is running.

Yeah but at least it's a start, at the moment killing a mage in a caster setup is quite difficult, if you add also the chainsnare from a peeler (that maybe has also slam with shield), it is not difficult but it is quite impossible.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 5:41 PM by Sepplord

Both being snare immune will make it easier to escape the melee, compared to both being snared

Wed 20 Jan 2021 8:32 PM by ExcretusMaximus

byron wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:24 PM
Yeah but at least it's a start, at the moment killing a mage in a caster setup is quite difficult, if you add also the chainsnare from a peeler (that maybe has also slam with shield), it is not difficult but it is quite impossible.

You don't get it; if they are immune to snares you will never be able to stay on them, it doesn't matter if you are also immune or not, you expend endurance attacking, they don't expend endurance running. Go play your Berserker tonight and use only the AB chain, never Conquer, and tell your team to do the same, let me know how it goes.

Sat 23 Jan 2021 8:02 PM by Nephamael

I love tank playstyle but for me the melee snares are quite abused on this server. A good start should be give an immunity timer.

Snares are in a totally healthy state for most styles - just not for some outstanding one, like the thrust 1h 2 style 27s snare and the blunt positional!!! 2 style 19s snare, like wtf anytime snare being longer than positional ^^.
And Hammer backstyle being a 23s!!!!!! 1 style 1h snare.

Midgard is a bit special cause 1h is 2h but this could be adressed by simply increasing the snare duration by 1/3 duration if performed with 2h, while reducing them for 1h to 12-15s, like other positional 1h styles.

Also Polearm anytime snare could use a reduction from 12s to 8s.

Standardizing snare durations across the realms is something that would be a natural thing for Phoenix to do as they value 8v8 balance.

I said it before in this threat, its pretty easy to do if u just rework all snares to a 8s/12s/25s/31s standard Anytime/positional1h/2style/2style 2h.

There could be a difference between 2 style anytime 18s and 2 style positional 25s - even tho i feel like the 2 style thrust anytimer is hard to land as it opens with detaunt, but still 27s (right now) or 25s seems a bit long, so i favor 18-20s.

(sword 2 style anytime snare is at a joke of 9s duration)

--------------------------- there are other ways to bring caster back to 8v8, manapool buff and more utility for ench/rc rm stick out to me-------------.

Mon 25 Jan 2021 9:05 AM by byron

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 8:32 PM
You don't get it; if they are immune to snares you will never be able to stay on them, it doesn't matter if you are also immune or not, you expend endurance attacking, they don't expend endurance running. Go play your Berserker tonight and use only the AB chain, never Conquer, and tell your team to do the same, let me know how it goes.

I got your point but I'm trying to think how a melee char can be played in other way than a chain snare machine. It is quite boring and, with recent changes on casters, also in Midgard the caster setup is becoming more effective. A caster has more damage, more cc, infinite kiting ... we are a the point that a group just need a peeler and in Midgard for sure a warrior is better than a zerk in that.

Mon 25 Jan 2021 12:05 PM by boridi

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Jan 2021 8:02 PM
--------------------------- there are other ways to bring caster back to 8v8, manapool buff and more utility for ench/rc rm stick out to me-------------.

When did casters leave 8v8?