Necromancer Class changes - Phoenix Freeshard

Hi,
I was hoping to spark some debate on the current state of Necromancers.

I've tried the various spec's, although not extensively, so I hope more seasoned Necromancers will chime in.
I'm having some issues with the class, perhaps It's superficial or maybe there is more to it.

My views are in respect to RvR.

- Unable to force a fight
This is a big one in my opinion. If you don't want to fight my necromancer, there is nothing I can do to stop you from simply running away. Snare and Ichor offers some utility, but It's rarely enough.

- Lack of Utility
Although the RA tree and general survivability of a Necro is that of a caster(even sub-par to casters), It has no place in a caster group for it offers very limited utility. In melee groups only 1 spec is viable and there is mainly one job to be done, AF debuff and Absorb buff. If the recent paladin changes make a difference remains to be seen.

- Extreme magic vulnerability
In the moment of writing the Necro Pet does not benefit from the recent debuff changes. The Necro pet can be debuffed to 0% resist and thus take massive hits.

- Perpetually Passive
The Necro pet is nigh always on passive. It's hits are more often than not too weak to risk an evade/block/parry chain. With no defensive ability such as Parry It makes for an armored big sword wielding pacifist.

- Does one job too well.
Killing Melees (if they dont simply run away) is what Necromancers really excel at. It's almost to the point where you can play with just 1 hand. Id rather see a tradeoff where our ability to default wins vs melee was traded with more utility for the class.

- Resummon in Keep siege
This used to be horrible, now It's more doable, but still somewhat of an issue. Resummoning while below say 30% hp could be uninterruptable?

So what can be done? Brainstorming below:
- Give the necro a Disease spell (pbae disease? single target?)
- Give the necro pet same resist tables as players. i.e cant have resists reduced to 0%
- Avoidance of Magic RA
- Cure self Mez / Stoicism
- Make the PBAE DoT a regular ranged AE DoT.
- Trade Lifedrain % amount for more Utility ?
- Pet Parry? Pet Melee upgrade? Disease proc?

Have you got some suggestion or an issue with Necros you want to bring up, big or small, please put it in this thread.

Sun 17 Jan 2021 3:20 PM by Sepplord

I agree that he is weak to magic-dmg but he is completely OP vs melees, and you adressed that. Bit It's kinda his niche
Not sure If the majority of necros would Like a Change that shifts both extremes more towards the middle of the powerspectrum.

The other points seem a bit onesided...Tons of classes can't force a fight in a lot of situations. And necro is someone who you can very often not force a fight upon too, as His shade can keep moving even when pet is CCed.
Similar issue with the pet recasting in keeps, Others would be simply dead and you are complaining that pet-recasting is hard.

Sun 17 Jan 2021 4:37 PM by ExcretusMaximus

glennm wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Jan 2021 2:53 PM
- Extreme magic vulnerability
In the moment of writing the Necro Pet does not benefit from the recent debuff changes. The Necro pet can be debuffed to 0% resist and thus take massive hits.

If only they had access to a decent active realm ability on a medium timer which gave them a massive resistance boost...

Sun 17 Jan 2021 4:59 PM by Nephamael

If you don't want to fight my necromancer, there is nothing I can do to stop you from simply running away.

This is the major problem all casters and all bow archers face since the HP rework.
It needs to be solved for ranged solos of all kind if those should have a place on Phoenix.

Necromancer has a rly nice snare cast and ichor is the best caster solo RA available. So Necro is in fact actually among the still most playable solo casters.

---------
I agree Necromancers should have the same resists as everyone else.

I agree the 2 other Necro speclines Death Servant and Painworking need buffs and not 2 little.

I think 325 delve bomb for Death Servant would be a good idea. Without the absorb selfbuff Death Servant Necros are rly as squishy as a caster vs melees, the bomb is harder to position well than a caster, necro pets cast slower than normal casters and therefore should have at least the same delve in dmg.
Currently you can get a tank maybe to 60-70% hp with your quickcast bombs, what a joke.

Painworking is harder to get in line with other classes - maybe a aoe snare nuke or aoe ranged dot to make it a zerg spec?

Sun 17 Jan 2021 5:00 PM by Sepplord

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Jan 2021 4:37 PM
If only they had access to a decent active realm ability on a medium timer which gave them a massive resistance boost...

Does juggernaut really work like that?
I was unser the Impression that it only increases petdmg, maybe also HP? But doesn't reduces DMG/spellresists anymore:

pet level in rvr combat is no longer the higher of pet or owner level but instead always the lower of the two, this affects outgoing and incoming spell and melee damage. This does not change pet casted necro or animist spells, there the owner level is still used.
- the previous mechanic, using the higher of pet or owner level, will stay in effect for outgoing (damage made by the pet) pve only damage

+

juggernaut now actually results in the pet doing the level appropriate damage

Afaik, First Patch Made juggernaut completely underpowered, then the second Change let it scaledmg up

Sun 17 Jan 2021 5:36 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Jan 2021 5:00 PM
Does juggernaut really work like that?

Sun 17 Jan 2021 9:01 PM by glennm

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Jan 2021 4:59 PM
If you don't want to fight my necromancer, there is nothing I can do to stop you from simply running away.

This is the major problem all casters and all bow archers face since the HP rework.
It needs to be solved for ranged solos of all kind if those should have a place on Phoenix.

Necromancer has a rly nice snare cast and ichor is the best caster solo RA available. So Necro is in fact actually among the still most playable solo casters.

Interesting point with the HP rework, perhaps that is the main culprit, but I still feel most other casters have an edge on necromancers when it comes to forcing a fight. Be it speed, stun, high burst damage, disease, root, stunning pets or by other means. Necromancer damage is on the low end of the spectrum unless fighting within 500 range.

Snare and Ichor is great, but It's very rarely enough to get your opponent low enough to start running slower.

The other points seem a bit onesided...Tons of classes can't force a fight in a lot of situations. And necro is someone who you can very often not force a fight upon too, as His shade can keep moving even when pet is CCed.
Similar issue with the pet recasting in keeps, Others would be simply dead and you are complaining that pet-recasting is hard.

I would argue the fight is done when the Necro pet dies, and you have succesfully forced the fight. You don't get very far, you drop to low health, and It's only valueable close to a keep or tower. The points are one sided because It is my opinion that the class needs a buff.

If only they had access to a decent active realm ability on a medium timer which gave them a massive resistance boost...

I'm not sure if this is an issue concerning realm abilities though. Resists should transfer from the player to the pet but that seems to not be the case. Debuff changes was applied to lower the debuff burst in rvr, why shouldent necros benefit?

Necros certainly don't need more obstacles in the race to be valueable in rvr. There is really only one viable spec. The pet behavior is a disadvantage in itself.

Casting a spell that is not successful drains mana. I.e you get amnesia'd, stunned mid-cast, want to stop your cast to reposition
Pet can't be manouvered to avoid positional styles.
Applying decent damage requires fighting in sub 500 range
You cannot view your immunity timers
You cannot view your status effects

At the very least we should not be adding to the list of disadvantages doing things such as omitting the Necro from the debuff changes and having damage applied as if resists are 0%

Sun 17 Jan 2021 9:47 PM by Sepplord

It is possible to ask for buffs without omitting all Advantages and giving onesided Reports.
It seems you want to remove the downsides while keeping the upsides.

Solo necro 1vs1 is Not the only scenario happening, and plenty of necros have Run away/escaped to safety while any other class in the same Situation stands in CC and is eventually killed by 2-3people assisting.

I regularly run in a 4man with a SVG and there are necros in enemy smallmens that are just Impossible to kill while the cleric is alive and the pet is buffed. Even If the clerics is in ruppt/CCed.
There are also necros in similar groups, that just bend over and die though, so i guess it isn't just buttonmashing that leads to success there.

PS: regarding resists on demand, i had immediatly thought of EM earlier and went to Check the charplaner. I must have accidently looked at the wrong class...

Mon 18 Jan 2021 9:21 AM by inoeth

necro cant force a fight? thats BS! put pet on aggressive and run over bridges, chance are really high that your pet destealthes enemys and for visible players you can always force a fight with your ranged snare.
also being able to almost destroy every melee needs to have a downside which is low magic resists. necro is already really strong and the last thing this class needs is a buff.

juggernaut pet hits for 800 which is lmao
get purge5
ichor really strong RA too
negative maelstrom
volcanic pillar
basicly necros are able to destroy a whole zerg in a tower on his own ;D
maybe ask seelix for advice?! the guy is a really strong necro player

Mon 18 Jan 2021 9:33 AM by easytoremember

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Jan 2021 9:21 AM
necro cant force a fight? thats BS! put pet on aggressive and run over bridges, chance are really high that your pet destealthes enemys and for visible players you can always force a fight with your ranged snare.
also being able to almost destroy every melee needs to have a downside which is low magic resists. necro is already really strong and the last thing this class needs is a buff.

juggernaut pet hits for 800 which is lmao
get purge5
ichor really strong RA too
negative maelstrom
volcanic pillar
basicly necros are able to destroy a whole zerg in a tower on his own ;D
maybe ask seelix for advice?! the guy is a really strong necro player

1) snare pet
2) jump off bridge
3) there is no 3 the fight is over
Bonus: if the necro jumped his pet is about to autorelease

Mon 18 Jan 2021 10:12 AM by inoeth

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Jan 2021 9:33 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Jan 2021 9:21 AM
necro cant force a fight? thats BS! put pet on aggressive and run over bridges, chance are really high that your pet destealthes enemys and for visible players you can always force a fight with your ranged snare.
also being able to almost destroy every melee needs to have a downside which is low magic resists. necro is already really strong and the last thing this class needs is a buff.

juggernaut pet hits for 800 which is lmao
get purge5
ichor really strong RA too
negative maelstrom
volcanic pillar
basicly necros are able to destroy a whole zerg in a tower on his own ;D
maybe ask seelix for advice?! the guy is a really strong necro player

1) snare pet
2) jump off bridge
3) there is no 3 the fight is over
Bonus: if the necro jumped his pet is about to autorelease

1) purge
2) jump off bridge
3) range snare
4) pewpew

Mon 18 Jan 2021 1:00 PM by glennm

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Jan 2021 9:47 PM
It is possible to ask for buffs without omitting all Advantages and giving onesided Reports.
It seems you want to remove the downsides while keeping the upsides.

Solo necro 1vs1 is Not the only scenario happening, and plenty of necros have Run away/escaped to safety while any other class in the same Situation stands in CC and is eventually killed by 2-3people assisting.

I regularly run in a 4man with a SVG and there are necros in enemy smallmens that are just Impossible to kill while the cleric is alive and the pet is buffed. Even If the clerics is in ruppt/CCed.
There are also necros in similar groups, that just bend over and die though, so i guess it isn't just buttonmashing that leads to success there.

PS: regarding resists on demand, i had immediatly thought of EM earlier and went to Check the charplaner. I must have accidently looked at the wrong class...

I'm not sure why you would be upset and defensive. I am merely presenting my opinions and views, not a new bill or a definitive class change.

For sure you're right that there are many scenarios that needs to be considered. I would only hope to see some more input from necros and maybe have this thread be a tiny stepping stone toward making some positive changes to the class.

I'm glad you mentioned smallmen, Necros are a rare sight in them, although you can have some success with Merc, Necro, Minstrel, Cleric, Sorc or similar you just don't have any decent CC like a root, disease, nearsight, things you really need and easily can get by replacing the necro with a caba or sorc. AF Debuff and the double con debuff is no joke though.

I have played with my Necro in a smallman and two melees will drop you like a potato sack very quickly even when fully buffed. High damage positional styles that can be near impossible to avoid are part of the reason for that, especially valewalkers or zerkers with an elemental DD proc style where the lower resist table of the pet gives it a huge disadvantage. Perhaps in the case of a savage your damage will suffer vs necros, but zerkers are having a field day let me tell you.

Mon 18 Jan 2021 1:26 PM by Simon73

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Jan 2021 9:33 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Jan 2021 9:21 AM
necro cant force a fight? thats BS! put pet on aggressive and run over bridges, chance are really high that your pet destealthes enemys and for visible players you can always force a fight with your ranged snare.
also being able to almost destroy every melee needs to have a downside which is low magic resists. necro is already really strong and the last thing this class needs is a buff.

juggernaut pet hits for 800 which is lmao
get purge5
ichor really strong RA too
negative maelstrom
volcanic pillar
basicly necros are able to destroy a whole zerg in a tower on his own ;D
maybe ask seelix for advice?! the guy is a really strong necro player

1) snare pet
2) jump off bridge
3) there is no 3 the fight is over
Bonus: if the necro jumped his pet is about to autorelease

Sure.
Because the necro is the one has problems in 1vs1....

Mon 18 Jan 2021 1:35 PM by glennm

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Jan 2021 9:21 AM
necro cant force a fight? thats BS! put pet on aggressive and run over bridges, chance are really high that your pet destealthes enemys and for visible players you can always force a fight with your ranged snare.
also being able to almost destroy every melee needs to have a downside which is low magic resists. necro is already really strong and the last thing this class needs is a buff.

juggernaut pet hits for 800 which is lmao
get purge5
ichor really strong RA too
negative maelstrom
volcanic pillar
basicly necros are able to destroy a whole zerg in a tower on his own ;D
maybe ask seelix for advice?! the guy is a really strong necro player

You really cannot force a fight with that snare, I wish you would try so you would understand. It's the equivalent of your Shadowblade not being able to sprint, and you can Garrot someone 1 time only. Your target would be snared, you get 1 or 2 more hits in, then he sprints away from you. Properly forcing a fight is you garrot spamming your target.

I would think you have not actually played the Necro in RvR, but probably alot vs them. It's true as you say, the Necro is very strong in melee. I woulden't mind trading my extreme proficiency at killing melees for some more utility.

Mon 18 Jan 2021 2:14 PM by DJ2000

About the "Unable to force a fight" part:
There is a difference between forcing a fight, and denying the enemy to flee from it. The necro can easily do the 1.
Why would a Melee choose to fight a necro pet? He obviously would not.
Are you after a form of hard CC? Not gonna happen mate.
It's like you are asking for easy melee kills.

About the "Lack of Utility" part:
The necro has plenty of utility. He is a standard in DS/Farm Grps not because of his DPS.

About the "Extreme magic vulnerability" and "Does one job too well" parts:
1 coin with 2 sides.
I am pretty sure that the majority of people would like some custom changes to these aspects. My personal opinion is that the devs rather not want to touch any of it.

About the "Perpetually Passive" part:
Part of the Pet mechanic every Pet-class has to deal with. Being able to manually setting it to passive/aggr/def according to the present situation is considered decision-making/"skill".

About the "Resummon in Keep siege" part:
Don't be solo in siege fights (period), have an Arms in Grp.

- Give the necro a Disease spell (pbae disease? single target?)
Doesn't help any of your points. Albion doesn't need another class with disease. Utility is not a problem.

- Give the necro pet same resist tables as players. i.e cant have resists reduced to 0%
Part of the Charm being a Pet focused Class. You can't have the positives without the negatives.

- Avoidance of Magic RA
TEM was already mentioned.

- Cure self Mez / Stoicism
...maybe, rather not / Hell no

- Make the PBAE DoT a regular ranged AE DoT.
This is a very iconic and unique spell. No. Use other spells/abilities if you want to do some AoE Dmg/rupt

- Trade Lifedrain % amount for more Utility ?
Utility is not a problem. Be more specific what you are actually after.

- Pet Parry? Pet Melee upgrade? Disease proc?
Custom changes, i highly doubt you will ever see.

Here is the problem with the Necro or any other SI class from another Post i did:
"Design-wise, the 6 SI classes are a complete disaster and in various aspects detrimental to the Game.
Every change may break 1 of these classes or pushes them to the top.

Necro, Animist, BD, Reaver, VW and Savage simply don't mesh with the original classes. There is always a contrast, always a problem, always something broken because of them or a fix that breaks them, always something to "bitch and moan" about them OR as them, always too weak/strong/unplayable/broken/op.

In concept all are great. The way they are implemented though, is terrible. Mythic screwed up.
From the day they were introduced, to this very Day.
Mythic tried for years to change and/or correct them in various ways. With a team and a Budget far, far higher than Phoenix has or will ever have available. And yet, look at Live, what that lead to. What was the best they could come up with?

Don't expect any radical changes to any of them by the staff. "

Mon 18 Jan 2021 2:21 PM by Sepplord

glennm wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Jan 2021 1:00 PM
I'm not sure why you would be upset and defensive. I am merely presenting my opinions and views, not a new bill or a definitive class change.

Why do you assume i am upset and defensive, instead of just presenting my opinions and views too?
I could also read that passive agressive "new bill" remark and assume the same and we just take turns accusing each other of being to emotional

That said, back to presenting opinions: you have a point with elemental melee proccs, but i doubt that it turns OP-vs-melee into weaksauce. Zerkers aren't magic dmgdealers just because one style at the end of a three-hit-chain has a couple hundred magic dmg.
I can't tell you what the necros do that seem almost invincible, as i have never played one outside of a bit PvE. But if a necro has issues with melees while the pet is fullbuffed, then they must be doing something wrong or are heavily outranked

Mon 18 Jan 2021 3:14 PM by inoeth

glennm wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Jan 2021 1:35 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Jan 2021 9:21 AM
necro cant force a fight? thats BS! put pet on aggressive and run over bridges, chance are really high that your pet destealthes enemys and for visible players you can always force a fight with your ranged snare.
also being able to almost destroy every melee needs to have a downside which is low magic resists. necro is already really strong and the last thing this class needs is a buff.

juggernaut pet hits for 800 which is lmao
get purge5
ichor really strong RA too
negative maelstrom
volcanic pillar
basicly necros are able to destroy a whole zerg in a tower on his own ;D
maybe ask seelix for advice?! the guy is a really strong necro player

You really cannot force a fight with that snare, I wish you would try so you would understand. It's the equivalent of your Shadowblade not being able to sprint, and you can Garrot someone 1 time only. Your target would be snared, you get 1 or 2 more hits in, then he sprints away from you. Properly forcing a fight is you garrot spamming your target.

I would think you have not actually played the Necro in RvR, but probably alot vs them. It's true as you say, the Necro is very strong in melee. I woulden't mind trading my extreme proficiency at killing melees for some more utility.

necro snaring me forcing a fight happened to me alot!
my sb does not have garotte

Mon 18 Jan 2021 3:22 PM by joshisanonymous

As a solo caster, it's generally very difficult to keep enemies from fleeing, and I have (more or less) access to three forms of CC. However, necros have one big advantage here and one small disadvantage.

Advantage: You can safely stand on top of any enemy. The way any other solo caster deals with fleeing enemies is to CC them then decide whether to start nuking from right on top of them or from some distance. If it's another caster you're fighting, you stand right on top of them since they can't interrupt or attack back without quickcasting, and if they try to flee, they'll probably be dead before getting out of range. If it's a melee, it depends on your class and the class you're fighting. It takes a lot more consideration with melees, but for a necro, this is a non-issue because they can pretty easily soak up melee damage and the only way they can be stopped from casting is with a stun.

Disadvantage: Damage isn't as high as other casters, so if someone decides to flee, you are slightly less likely to do enough damage to kill them before they get out of range. You do have access to juggernaut though which, correct me if I'm wrong, will greatly increase your nuke damage. Yes it's a 15 minute timer, but it's ridiculously good for a solo necro, and solo fights generally don't come super fast so you'll have it should be available for a decent proportion of your fights.

I'd say the advantage is great enough that the disadvantage doesn't matter, especially when you have juggernaut to boost your damage (and your defenses to boot). I'll admit that I can only recall losing one 1v1 to a necro as an SM and I'm fairly certain it was because I wasn't expecting the damage that came from juggernaut, but necros are only really weak to casters 1v1 and not much else. That's why all the casters with high solo kills in Alb are necros, because most 1v1s are against stealthers. And sure, an assassin who doesn't want to fight you can garrote and split, but that happens to every caster that solos, only most solo casters just die in these situations instead.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:17 AM by easytoremember

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Jan 2021 3:22 PM
As a solo caster, it's generally very difficult to keep enemies from fleeing, and I have (more or less) access to three forms of CC. However, necros have one big advantage here and one small disadvantage.

Advantage: You can safely stand on top of any enemy. The way any other solo caster deals with fleeing enemies is to CC them then decide whether to start nuking from right on top of them or from some distance. If it's another caster you're fighting, you stand right on top of them since they can't interrupt or attack back without quickcasting, and if they try to flee, they'll probably be dead before getting out of range. If it's a melee, it depends on your class and the class you're fighting. It takes a lot more consideration with melees, but for a necro, this is a non-issue because they can pretty easily soak up melee damage and the only way they can be stopped from casting is with a stun.

Disadvantage: Damage isn't as high as other casters, so if someone decides to flee, you are slightly less likely to do enough damage to kill them before they get out of range. You do have access to juggernaut though which, correct me if I'm wrong, will greatly increase your nuke damage. Yes it's a 15 minute timer, but it's ridiculously good for a solo necro, and solo fights generally don't come super fast so you'll have it should be available for a decent proportion of your fights.

I'd say the advantage is great enough that the disadvantage doesn't matter, especially when you have juggernaut to boost your damage (and your defenses to boot). I'll admit that I can only recall losing one 1v1 to a necro as an SM and I'm fairly certain it was because I wasn't expecting the damage that came from juggernaut, but necros are only really weak to casters 1v1 and not much else. That's why all the casters with high solo kills in Alb are necros, because most 1v1s are against stealthers. And sure, an assassin who doesn't want to fight you can garrote and split, but that happens to every caster that solos, only most solo casters just die in these situations instead.

only outgoing melee damage and incoming melee damage change

Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:44 PM by glennm

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Jan 2021 2:14 PM
About the "Unable to force a fight" part:
There is a difference between forcing a fight, and denying the enemy to flee from it. The necro can easily do the 1.
Why would a Melee choose to fight a necro pet? He obviously would not.
Are you after a form of hard CC? Not gonna happen mate.
It's like you are asking for easy melee kills.

That's not what I'm asking at all, If you read my post you will see It's a brainstorming, and that I'm acknowledging the fact that the necro is too strong vs melee and would rather see a more balanced approach.

About the "Lack of Utility" part:
The necro has plenty of utility. He is a standard in DS/Farm Grps not because of his DPS.

If you read my opening post you will see I am discussing rvr aspects, not pve.

About the "Extreme magic vulnerability" and "Does one job too well" parts:
1 coin with 2 sides.
I am pretty sure that the majority of people would like some custom changes to these aspects. My personal opinion is that the devs rather not want to touch any of it.

It is my hope they will take a look at it at some point.

About the "Perpetually Passive" part:
Part of the Pet mechanic every Pet-class has to deal with. Being able to manually setting it to passive/aggr/def according to the present situation is considered decision-making/"skill".

There is hardly any decision making or skill involved, I really wish there were though.

About the "Resummon in Keep siege" part:
Don't be solo in siege fights (period), have an Arms in Grp.

Someone made a valid point earlier about the fact that other class would be dead at that point, and that a 2nd chance for the necro shouldent be too easy.

- Give the necro a Disease spell (pbae disease? single target?)
Doesn't help any of your points. Albion doesn't need another class with disease. Utility is not a problem.

A disease would greatly improve on the much needed utility. We disagree thoroughly and I fear you are still referring to pve which is not my concern.

- Give the necro pet same resist tables as players. i.e cant have resists reduced to 0%
Part of the Charm being a Pet focused Class. You can't have the positives without the negatives.

You cannot sideline the Necro with other pet classes in this regard. The necro cannot work as two interrupting entities in the same way a cabalist or SM can, which is the major benefit you must be referring to that is supposed to offset the resist tables of necro pets. Heck, even the Amber Simulacrum is more resilient than an Abomination.

- Make the PBAE DoT a regular ranged AE DoT.
This is a very iconic and unique spell. No. Use other spells/abilities if you want to do some AoE Dmg/rupt

I fear you are not too familiar with the class. Necromancer has no ranged damage spells.

- Trade Lifedrain % amount for more Utility ?
Utility is not a problem. Be more specific what you are actually after.

It's a brainstorm, and again, you argue necro has enough utility on the basis of pve. I'm primarily after input and suggestions, game development and balancing is no easy task.

Here is the problem with the Necro or any other SI class from another Post i did:
"Design-wise, the 6 SI classes are a complete disaster and in various aspects detrimental to the Game.
Every change may break 1 of these classes or pushes them to the top.

Necro, Animist, BD, Reaver, VW and Savage simply don't mesh with the original classes. There is always a contrast, always a problem, always something broken because of them or a fix that breaks them, always something to "bitch and moan" about them OR as them, always too weak/strong/unplayable/broken/op.

In concept all are great. The way they are implemented though, is terrible. Mythic screwed up.
From the day they were introduced, to this very Day.
Mythic tried for years to change and/or correct them in various ways. With a team and a Budget far, far higher than Phoenix has or will ever have available. And yet, look at Live, what that lead to. What was the best they could come up with?

Don't expect any radical changes to any of them by the staff. "

Thanks for your input DJ2000. The staff has been tweaking a lot lately and maybe there is something in store for the necro at some point. Crossing my fingers.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:47 PM by DJ2000

glennm wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:44 PM
1. That's not what I'm asking at all, If you read my post you will see It's a brainstorming, and that I'm acknowledging the fact that the necro is too strong vs melee and would rather see a more balanced approach.
2. If you read my opening post you will see I am discussing rvr aspects, not pve.
3. A disease would greatly improve on the much needed utility. We disagree thoroughly and I fear you are still referring to pve which is not my concern.
4. You cannot sideline the Necro with other pet classes in this regard. The necro cannot work as two interrupting entities in the same way a cabalist or SM can, which is the major benefit you must be referring to that is supposed to offset the resist tables of necro pets. Heck, even the Amber Simulacrum is more resilient than an Abomination.
5. I fear you are not too familiar with the class. Necromancer has no ranged damage spells.
6. It's a brainstorm, and again, you argue necro has enough utility on the basis of pve. I'm primarily after input and suggestions, game development and balancing is no easy task.

1.
Weird. Then why are you asking for ways to stop Enemies from not-engaging you in Melee combat? Which by the way, you called "a Big one", when an unbreakable Snare and an irresistible Root is not enough for you. The disease would not help either, even though u keep insisting it being THE missing Utility for Necromancers.
The only thing that would remain for is Hard CC then. But sure, call it brainstorming all you want.

2.
Ok lets see:
-> Spec Af Debuff, Base Af Debuff. Why are these PvE only? Afaik they work wonders in RvR too. Completely Unique to the Necro as well.
-> Strength and Constitution instant Debuffs. As you are not requesting these to be AoE, i guess they are fine? Whatever the case, weak are these not, and PvE only the less.
-> Unbreakable Speed Decrease (AoE) I doubt anyone ever used this spell even 2x in 48h of play in PvE as a Necromancer.
-> Armor Absorption Buff. PvE only too, huh?
I will stop listing stuff, and ignore utility from Realm Abilities, why? for once, you seem to not acknowledge them anyway and two: its obvious what u want here. You said it yourself.
A spammable Ranged AoE spell. Apparently you want the Necro to have 1 AoE Disease and 1 Ranged AoE DoT. Sure, be the 2nd Cabalist of the Realm.
But why not play a Cabalist then?
Don't give me that "PvE only" crap. If you want to discuss things, then do it as genuinely as possible.

3.
I am more at a disagreement with myself if this "discussion" actually is one, or just a waste of time with someone in denial to everything else except to his own beliefs.
Where do you want to place the Disease. Why would the Necro need the Disease. Just to have it? Is it to compliment his Kit? In favor of the Necro Playstyle?
At which point would a Necro use a Disease any different from a Cabalist? Because it would be easier for the Necro? What is the Goal you are trying to accomplish with it. You can't just throw stuff out there, there has to be some meaning behind it.

4.
No no no. You literally take 1 aspect of a comparison with other Pet classes like Cabalist or SM, and judge without considering the whole Necromancer picture.
Necro Pet is a Pet. Yeah, i know it shocking. But its true. And as such, it behaves like a Pet, and it gets treated like a Pet in RvR. The Necro is not the Pet. The Pet is not a Player. The Necromancer controls and commands the Pet to do his bidding.
The Necro is unique in that regard. There are Grp Mechanics around the Necro that also have unique interactions, as you may already know. The Pet itself though, is just a Pet.

5.
Claim what you want. Waiving away another person's credibility to a subject will set a "tone" though. It certainly did here.

6.
Apparently this is a discussion right.
...humor me. I'll give you some "brainstorming" ideas.
Necro Pets cannot be buffed.
Necro Pets are always in Stick-Range to Shade.
Necros need Mana and lose it constantly to uphold their Pet.
therefore...
Necro Pets dont need LoS, only the Shade does.
Necro dont need Mana to Cast spells
Necro >put here your desired whateverspell<

Talking about a "discussion or brainstorming", vaguely admitting the obvious without actually caring for changes, but keep demanding stuff to be missing for the Necro. I have seen a lot of guys like you.

Fri 22 Jan 2021 10:40 PM by glennm

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:47 PM
glennm wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:44 PM
1. That's not what I'm asking at all, If you read my post you will see It's a brainstorming, and that I'm acknowledging the fact that the necro is too strong vs melee and would rather see a more balanced approach.
2. If you read my opening post you will see I am discussing rvr aspects, not pve.
3. A disease would greatly improve on the much needed utility. We disagree thoroughly and I fear you are still referring to pve which is not my concern.
4. You cannot sideline the Necro with other pet classes in this regard. The necro cannot work as two interrupting entities in the same way a cabalist or SM can, which is the major benefit you must be referring to that is supposed to offset the resist tables of necro pets. Heck, even the Amber Simulacrum is more resilient than an Abomination.
5. I fear you are not too familiar with the class. Necromancer has no ranged damage spells.
6. It's a brainstorm, and again, you argue necro has enough utility on the basis of pve. I'm primarily after input and suggestions, game development and balancing is no easy task.

1.
Weird. Then why are you asking for ways to stop Enemies from not-engaging you in Melee combat? Which by the way, you called "a Big one", when an unbreakable Snare and an irresistible Root is not enough for you. The disease would not help either, even though u keep insisting it being THE missing Utility for Necromancers.
The only thing that would remain for is Hard CC then. But sure, call it brainstorming all you want.

2.
Ok lets see:
-> Spec Af Debuff, Base Af Debuff. Why are these PvE only? Afaik they work wonders in RvR too. Completely Unique to the Necro as well.
-> Strength and Constitution instant Debuffs. As you are not requesting these to be AoE, i guess they are fine? Whatever the case, weak are these not, and PvE only the less.
-> Unbreakable Speed Decrease (AoE) I doubt anyone ever used this spell even 2x in 48h of play in PvE as a Necromancer.
-> Armor Absorption Buff. PvE only too, huh?
I will stop listing stuff, and ignore utility from Realm Abilities, why? for once, you seem to not acknowledge them anyway and two: its obvious what u want here. You said it yourself.
A spammable Ranged AoE spell. Apparently you want the Necro to have 1 AoE Disease and 1 Ranged AoE DoT. Sure, be the 2nd Cabalist of the Realm.
But why not play a Cabalist then?
Don't give me that "PvE only" crap. If you want to discuss things, then do it as genuinely as possible.

3.
I am more at a disagreement with myself if this "discussion" actually is one, or just a waste of time with someone in denial to everything else except to his own beliefs.
Where do you want to place the Disease. Why would the Necro need the Disease. Just to have it? Is it to compliment his Kit? In favor of the Necro Playstyle?
At which point would a Necro use a Disease any different from a Cabalist? Because it would be easier for the Necro? What is the Goal you are trying to accomplish with it. You can't just throw stuff out there, there has to be some meaning behind it.

4.
No no no. You literally take 1 aspect of a comparison with other Pet classes like Cabalist or SM, and judge without considering the whole Necromancer picture.
Necro Pet is a Pet. Yeah, i know it shocking. But its true. And as such, it behaves like a Pet, and it gets treated like a Pet in RvR. The Necro is not the Pet. The Pet is not a Player. The Necromancer controls and commands the Pet to do his bidding.
The Necro is unique in that regard. There are Grp Mechanics around the Necro that also have unique interactions, as you may already know. The Pet itself though, is just a Pet.

5.
Claim what you want. Waiving away another person's credibility to a subject will set a "tone" though. It certainly did here.

6.
Apparently this is a discussion right.
...humor me. I'll give you some "brainstorming" ideas.
Necro Pets cannot be buffed.
Necro Pets are always in Stick-Range to Shade.
Necros need Mana and lose it constantly to uphold their Pet.
therefore...
Necro Pets dont need LoS, only the Shade does.
Necro dont need Mana to Cast spells
Necro >put here your desired whateverspell<

Talking about a "discussion or brainstorming", vaguely admitting the obvious without actually caring for changes, but keep demanding stuff to be missing for the Necro. I have seen a lot of guys like you.

Please try to be respectful and avoid making strawmen arguments. If you approach this trying to make this about myself as a person being bad for offering my views on the rvr necro or not satisfying your standard for posting suggestions I think it best you find another thread to post in.

I can't respond to the majority of your post because you are either arguing against views or statements that I simply don't have or haven't made, or just taking personal stabs at me.

What other aspects should we consider when comparing the necro pet to other pets? Cabalists, Spiritmasters, etc are controlling a pet as a separate entity, having it perform one job whilst you perform another, this is of course a huge advantage and differentiator compared to the Necromancer.

The necromancer is dependant on working in tandem with the pet. Incapacitate or kill the pet and there are no actions to be performed and the player is of no value.
Now incapacitate or kill an Amber Simulacrum, is the player of no value as is the case with the Necro? For sure not. So why does the game treat them as if they are of equal value? Your answer is because a pet is a pet. Which is fine, but I disagree.

Base AF debuff don't stack with Spec AF debuff in rvr, although I'm being blunt, I believe my right to question your familiarity with the Necro is justified. It's not like you chose a humble "I may be wrong" approach to things.

Fri 22 Jan 2021 11:30 PM by DJ2000

glennm wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 10:40 PM
Please try to be respectful and avoid making strawmen arguments. If you approach this trying to make this about myself as a person being bad for offering my views on the rvr necro or not satisfying your standard for posting suggestions I think it best you find another thread to post in.

c'mon, really now. Demanding respect and yet you keep calling me inadequate to even take a part at all. Just to "Strawman" in the very next sentence. Sure...have fun with it.

glennm wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 10:40 PM
I can't respond to the majority of your post because you are either arguing against views or statements that I simply don't have or haven't made, or just taking personal stabs at me.

I will not invest any more time to point your own words out. Denial it is.

glennm wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 10:40 PM
What other aspects should we consider when comparing the Necro pet to other pets? Cabalists, Spiritmasters, etc are controlling a pet as a separate entity, having it perform one job whilst you perform another, this is of course a huge advantage and differentiator compared to the Necromancer.

We are not even remotely on the same page.
Can the Shade technical and effectively use spells that are not channeled through his Pet, thus being 2 "separate entities"? Yes, yes he can. Commonly happens when using RA like NM as an example.
Is that the general Gameplay of the Necro? No. Usually not.
Why do you do call out the differences of these classes... i don't know. Of course, they are different. There is not a single class that is like the Necromancer. They work and function differently, thats not surprising. This is about the Pet right?
So what do they have in common? A lower level Pet. An "NPC" Pet, if you will.
Correct me if i am assuming wrongly when is say that: You seem to question, as to why the Game (Enigne) treats your NPC-Pet like a NPC-Pet, and not like a Player.
(other cases f.e.: that Spells like the DoTs end the same moment the Pet dies, even though the end of the duration was not reached)

glennm wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 10:40 PM
The necromancer is dependant on working in tandem with the pet. Incapacitate or kill the pet and there are no actions to be performed and the player is of no value.
Now incapacitate or kill an Amber Simulacrum, is the player of no value as is the case with the Necro? For sure not. So why does the game treat them as if they are of equal value? Your answer is because a pet is a pet. Which is fine, but I disagree.

Different Class, different up-/downsides. What am i missing here?

glennm wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 10:40 PM
Base AF debuff don't stack with Spec AF debuff in rvr, although I'm being blunt, I believe my right to question your familiarity with the Necro is justified. It's not like you chose a humble "I may be wrong" approach to things.

Jesus, here it is again. Point out where i said that in this quote:
"Spec Af Debuff, Base Af Debuff. Why are these PvE only? Afaik they work wonders in RvR too. Completely Unique to the Necro as well."
Yet you simply evade to give an answer to anything that doesn't follow your narrative.
Feel free to ignore anything i write. Past, present and future. I even grant you the "last word", cba to reply anymore.