Changes December 2020 - Phoenix Freeshard

ETA next couple days.

General:
- Delve of all resist debuffs reduced by 20% (50 -> 40, 30 -> 24, 15 -> 12)
- Lifedrain spells no longer gain 10% of their lifedrain return % as extra damage
- Spiritmaster darkness lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- Cabalist body lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is a buff and to offset the extra damage removal
- Bonedancer suppression instant lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 136, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- The concept of dual effect spells for resist purposes and their associated extra resist chance has been removed

Class Changes:
- Shaman gets access to nearsight heal at 20 and 40 mending
- Bard receives a single target root
- Delve of Thane energy resist debuff has been about doubled (after the 20% nerf): 6 -> 10, 12 -> 20, 18 -> 30, 24 -> 40

Realm Abilities:
- Divine Intervention had its values restored to its original value (from 750, 1125, 1500, 1875, 2250 to 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000)
- Vehement Renewal had its values restored to its original value (from 375, 650, 950, 1300, 1700 to 500, 875, 1250, 1750, 2250)

Effects of the 20% debuff delve reduction:
Example against 26% item resists and 24% resist buff with previously 50 delve resist debuff:
Before / now:
50 * 1.25 = 62.5 = 62
62 - 24 = 38
38 / 2 = 19
26 - 19 = 7
Enemy has 7% resist after the debuff

After:
40 * 1.25 = 50
50 - 24 = 26
26 / 2 = 13
26 - 13 = 13
Enemy has 13% resist after the debuff

Example against 26% item resists and no resist buff with previously 50 delve resist debuff:
Before / now:
50 * 1.25 = 62.5 = 62
62 / 2 = 31
26 - 31 = -5
Enemy has -5% resist after the debuff

After:
40 * 1.25 = 50
50 / 2 = 25
26 - 25 = 1
Enemy has 1% resist after the debuff

Effects on the alb body train:
Affected by the 20% debuff reduction like all caster groups plus the removal of lifedrain extra damage (6% for the baseline nuke), however, the latter is largely offset by the removal of the 2.5% extra resist chance (lifedrain counts as dual effect spell).

Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:28 PM by Hector

I'm getting tired of having to write how awful your planned changes are. Who are you consulting on these? Is it just internal GM discussion? Do you guys ever bring in people who actually play these classes regularly in competitive environments or are you just like f**k it what will make the enormous pilzpower vs polemo fights more interesting?

Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:41 PM by

Uthred

We didnt expect everyone to be happy with that changes and everyone is allowed to say "yeah" or "boo" in here. Not a problem at all. But if you cant word your critique in reasonable words, your post will be deleted. Easy as that.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:49 PM by Kurdy

Hector wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:28 PM
I'm getting tired of having to write how awful your planned changes are. Who are you consulting on these? Is it just internal GM discussion? Do you guys ever bring in people who actually play these classes regularly in competitive environments or are you just like f**k it what will make the enormous pilzpower vs polemo fights more interesting?

Sorry Mister Hector,

the community didn't wait for your validation to make these changes...how could you pretend to be 'the voice" of the players ?

I'm not playing with Polemo/pilzpower and i'm okay with these change.

Stop complaning without any argument you just a part of these ppl blaming other and doing nothing...

Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:55 PM by Leet

Good Changes. Alb Castergroups got ridiculous lately.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:59 PM by Hector

Kurdy wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:49 PM
Hector wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:28 PM
I'm getting tired of having to write how awful your planned changes are. Who are you consulting on these? Is it just internal GM discussion? Do you guys ever bring in people who actually play these classes regularly in competitive environments or are you just like f**k it what will make the enormous pilzpower vs polemo fights more interesting?

Sorry Mister Hector,

the community didn't wait for your validation to make these changes...how could you pretend to be 'the voice" of the players ?

I'm not playing with Polemo/pilzpower and i'm okay with these change.

Stop complaning without any argument you just a part of these ppl blaming other and doing nothing...

Argument:
-Tanks with 3000 hp do not need to take LESS damage
-There is already changes on Phoenix designed to decrease burst from casters: cast lock, tank hp buff, AOM/2* resist changes, now plans for resist nerf and more healing RA powers
-Caster damage can be stopped by interrupting them, tank dps can never be stopped by rupts
-The idea that hib caster groups are underplayed and need some help so you propose giving bard root but at the same time nerfing their debuff is LOL

Should I keep going

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:01 PM by hyshash

Leet wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:55 PM
Good Changes. Alb Castergroups got ridiculous lately.

there were nothing but nervs to caster/alb/alb caster lately ... but alb caster groups got ridiculous lately? kinda doesnt add up
or is it because theres nothing else but alb caster thats viable for alb since the last mins nerv so every single alb grp you engange is running a caster setup?

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:02 PM by opossum12

General idea is to nerf alb body trains, which makes sense. Not normal that groups run 5 casters and still do very well. Will definitely spark the need for more hybrids comp.

With the nerf to alb body train, it would be interesting to look at the alb tanker. Redoing some of the styles of the merc (giving them a back snare chain) and potentially adding a DD proc to the paladin lvl 50 2H backchain follow-up could make it interesting to play.

Giving bard root makes that class even stronger, not sure it was required. Hib is already the king of smallman because of the bard. Nerfing lifetaps will affect alb smallman. I was already going to smallman on hib because of the low pop/bonuses, so that's great

Sham cure NS is good, as they'll probably only have access to the 6 sec one, so keeps it balanced.

It would be interesting on seeing how you plan to make hib caster groups more interesting to play. Energy baseline nuke in mana and giving mentalism a 209 delve energy spec nuke would be great, could make a nice energy/body 3 caster train with the animist. A short range NS (2k instead of 2300) in the mentalist mana line would also be good.

But to Hector's point, hib tanker just got a pretty good buff with these changes.

Personally I would have nerfed the lifetaps, not the debuffs.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:03 PM by thomyg

- Bard receives a single target root

In baseline?

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:07 PM by Leet

hyshash wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:01 PM
Leet wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:55 PM
Good Changes. Alb Castergroups got ridiculous lately.

there were nothing but nervs to caster/alb/alb caster lately ... but alb caster groups got ridiculous lately? kinda doesnt add up
or is it because theres nothing else but alb caster thats viable for alb since the last mins nerv so every single alb grp you engange is running a caster setup?

True, there were a lot of changes regarding castergrps lately. Maybe my wording was a bit wrong: Let's phrase it like that: "Good changes. Alb Castergroups are ridiculous"
But still, every albgroup runs the Bodytrain. I don't think it's because there are no other viable options, I thinks it's because it is still the easiest setup around.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:13 PM by skipari

thomyg wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:03 PM
- Bard receives a single target root

In baseline?

I second that question, would probably make sense to have it as spec like pac has.

Overall reasonable changes imho, looks decent.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:13 PM by ptitbiscuit

great changes, finally some nerfing for casters assist trains, it was ridiculous to have -5% resist after a debuff tbh, good changes and a step in the good way. 100% for these changes. also nice to give some love to shamans with the cure NS even tho not sure if people wil actually go for 40mend but still, good stuff there !
Merry Xmas everyone 🎄

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:19 PM by Strikejk

General:
- Delve of all resist debuffs reduced by 20% (50 -> 40, 30 -> 24, 15 -> 12)
- Lifedrain spells no longer gain 10% of their lifedrain return % as extra damage
- Spiritmaster darkness lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- Cabalist body lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is a buff and to offset the extra damage removal
- Bonedancer suppression instant lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 136, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- The concept of dual effect spells for resist purposes and their associated extra resist chance has been removed

Effects on the alb body train:
Affected by the 20% debuff reduction like all caster groups plus the removal of lifedrain extra damage (6% for the baseline nuke), however, the latter is largely offset by the removal of the 2.5% extra resist chance (lifedrain counts as dual effect spell).

What about Reaver?
What about Necro?
What do they have to do with the Alb Body train?!
Or are these classes already completely forgotten?
Lets just screw them over, just because we can I guess? wow.

Not surprised another nerf nicely hidden in a "just-a-change" box.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:20 PM by hyshash

ptitbiscuit wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:13 PM
great changes, finally some nerfing for casters assist trains, it was ridiculous to have -5% resist after a debuff tbh, good changes and a step in the good way. 100% for these changes. also nice to give some love to shamans with the cure NS even tho not sure if people wil actually go for 40mend but still, good stuff there !
Merry Xmas everyone 🎄

who actually had -5% resis when he encountered an assist train and it actually mattered? are you guys running without support and argueing afterwards about changes?
you cant base nervs/buffs upon suboptimal situations but allways have to evaluate the best possible scenario or the most common one where the changes actually matter (grp vs grp in the case of debuff trains)

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:20 PM by Kaziera

Looks like step away from the instagib alb caster meta. Fine by me.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:24 PM by Strikejk

Class Changes:
- Shaman gets access to nearsight heal at 20 and 40 mending
- Bard receives a single target root
- Delve of Thane energy resist debuff has been about doubled (after the 20% nerf): 6 -> 10, 12 -> 20, 18 -> 30, 24 -> 40

TLDR; lets remove the same from everyone, then give it back to hib/mid only.
Again I wonder why not be honest and just call it albs nerfs, cause its what it is.

And last but not least you want to give the highest utility class in the game, the bard, even more utility?
Is this an out-of-season April fools joke?

Albion has curretnly more players than the other realms and a better BG leading (especially compared to the joke fest that is midgard BGs) and now you punish people who play better by nerfing their shit to the ground. Where was this when Hibs dominated after NF? Where was this when Mids dominated on OF?

Everytime Albs manage to get some shit down another swing with the nerf bat comes along, because its clearly all the OP classes Albion has, give me a break.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:26 PM by dreginkt

Soooo we were the last hib caster group running during NA prime time, all the other guilds have gone to a 4/4 melee/naty build for the most part. I guess we will too? I understand the alb body train groups are ridiculous, we fight them all the time and know how it is. I am not sure if nerfing debuffs across the board was the right move. I'd recommend maybe nerfing it for albion or changing what level they get it but finding some other way besides nerfing all debuffs would be ideal. Mids do have a few cold debuff groups that are barely viable but this kills that as well. By trying to balance the alb body train with an across the board nerf you just rendered hib/mid group comps invalid. Re-think it, thank you.

If you go this route, consider increasing the spec DD nuke for RMs and Ments to help keeping hib/mid caster viable.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:40 PM by Strikejk

Lets see..
Top 250 by RP: All time
Necros: 3
Bards: 14

Yep, better nerf those OP Necro Lifetaps! Also shovel another buff on the Bard-Utility-Mountain, I can still see the top afterall!
...you have all these powerful metrics and you really think a Bard needs more utility while the necro needs another nerf? For real?

What do I hear there? I shouldn't take "All time" RP statistic cause they are flawed and showcase old balance values?
Okay!
Top 250 by RP: Last Week only
Necros: 2
Bards: 13

Hmm.. I guess you guys were right, 2 is way too much.

Okay but..
Top 250 by Kills: Last Week only
Necros: 2
Bards: 15
..maybe not

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:50 PM by jas4320

Hector wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:59 PM
Kurdy wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:49 PM
Hector wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:28 PM
I'm getting tired of having to write how awful your planned changes are. Who are you consulting on these? Is it just internal GM discussion? Do you guys ever bring in people who actually play these classes regularly in competitive environments or are you just like f**k it what will make the enormous pilzpower vs polemo fights more interesting?

Sorry Mister Hector,

the community didn't wait for your validation to make these changes...how could you pretend to be 'the voice" of the players ?

I'm not playing with Polemo/pilzpower and i'm okay with these change.

Stop complaning without any argument you just a part of these ppl blaming other and doing nothing...

Argument:
-Tanks with 3000 hp do not need to take LESS damage
-There is already changes on Phoenix designed to decrease burst from casters: cast lock, tank hp buff, AOM/2* resist changes, now plans for resist nerf and more healing RA powers
-Caster damage can be stopped by interrupting them, tank dps can never be stopped by rupts
-The idea that hib caster groups are underplayed and need some help so you propose giving bard root but at the same time nerfing their debuff is LOL

Should I keep going

I agree with all these points. Quickly making this a pure tank server with these changes. Just because strong groups are running on alb with the debuff train doesn't mean it needs nerfed again. I'm sure the main reason for this is zergs dying to an organized 8 man.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:54 PM by Soulstice

what about Animist Life drain? will just get the reduction damage and no balance?

Mon 21 Dec 2020 2:01 PM by l00ri

Oh shit, now we can't run our 4 Caster endless-kite Setups anymore. Server is going to die !!! :--(

Mon 21 Dec 2020 2:02 PM by Hedien

I am seriously concerned about the impact on smallman with bard added root.
A lot of smallman players are also players not using det because they often alternate with solo play beside. This change is pretty tough once your purge is out.

But as explained before, I would rather try it out before and see the impact in live. If it is too much, I trust the team would make necessary adjustments as they did for the bow community previously dealing 1k+ openers.

I try to analyze the effect of Thane debuff boost:
- Before 237 cast went to roughly 280 under debuff 24%.
- With debuff nerfed mechanics and boost to 40% it would go roughly to 310 dmg. (considering only 26% item resist)
- Over a full slam x 3 casts and 2 instant DD, it would in effect increase damage by roughly 100 dmg.
- With a 10% resist rate, it is likely bringing the value down to 90 dmg.
- Then after, considering that the ability to slam and cast implies no rupt (rare in smallman), or no purge (rare in solo) I would consider this scenario to materialize 30% of the fights.
- Then adding up the fact that debuff is not fully controlled (random 15% debuff proc) nor infinite duration, I would consider no more than 50% of the cast benefitting from the actual debuff.
- So 90 dmg x 30% x 50% = an additional 14 dmg.

From a technical burst standpoint, if stars align (or you "time it well"

yes it is better by roughly 100 dmg, not huge but noticeable. From a statistical average, it is a meager improvement. The initial style change adding small energy DD proc is the real change Thane are hoping for.

Slight nerf on reaver drain. Not gamebreaking for a class already quite OP.

Sat/Faturday.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 2:19 PM by opossum12

Strikejk wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:40 PM
Lets see..
Top 250 by RP: All time
Necros: 3
Bards: 14

Yep, better nerf those OP Necro Lifetaps! Also shovel another buff on the Bard-Utility-Mountain, I can still see the top afterall!
...you have all these powerful metrics and you really think a Bard needs more utility while the necro needs another nerf? For real?

What do I hear there? I shouldn't take "All time" RP statistic cause they are flawed and showcase old balance values?
Okay!
Top 250 by RP: Last Week only
Necros: 2
Bards: 13

Hmm.. I guess you guys were right, 2 is way too much.

Okay but..
Top 250 by Kills: Last Week only
Necros: 2
Bards: 15
..maybe not

That was quite possibly the most stupid post in this entire thread

Mon 21 Dec 2020 2:21 PM by Sepplord

Strikejk wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:40 PM
Lets see..
Top 250 by RP: All time
Necros: 3
Bards: 14

Yep, better nerf those OP Necro Lifetaps! Also shovel another buff on the Bard-Utility-Mountain, I can still see the top afterall!
...you have all these powerful metrics and you really think a Bard needs more utility while the necro needs another nerf? For real?

What do I hear there? I shouldn't take "All time" RP statistic cause they are flawed and showcase old balance values?
Okay!
Top 250 by RP: Last Week only
Necros: 2
Bards: 13

Hmm.. I guess you guys were right, 2 is way too much.

Okay but..
Top 250 by Kills: Last Week only
Necros: 2
Bards: 15
..maybe not

There have been sign before but this seems like an obvious give away that Strikejk is a parody Account

Mon 21 Dec 2020 2:34 PM by johneyde

Nice changes.... merry christmas!

Mon 21 Dec 2020 2:38 PM by Pogmothan

"Further cancellations of gameplay changes have now been canceled"?!?!?!?!?

Mon 21 Dec 2020 2:52 PM by Hangel

Uthred wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:41 PM
We didnt expect everyone to be happy with that changes and everyone is allowed to say "yeah" or "boo" in here. Not a problem at all. But if you cant word your critique in reasonable words, your post will be deleted. Easy as that.

To be honest we cannot understand those changes... 99% of the server play hybrid setup or full tank. There are only few party playing caster setup and now will be impossible to play it. U nerf the caster debut train, and put root on bard and heal ns on shammy.
All this changes going to increase tank setup vs caster... and this is the dead of the caster party. What we cannot understand it's why you nerf the caster when all people already play tank...

Mon 21 Dec 2020 2:54 PM by Salidry

what i feel is missing before anything should be commented is some argumentation and explanation on the changes from the devs team.
Why is there a need to nerf all casters again?
Why root on bard?
Why cabalist body spec dd buff? (It brings nothing as nobody specs full body)
Why up VR and DI?
Etc

Mon 21 Dec 2020 2:54 PM by EEpack

- Bard receives a single target root

yeah, give em insta-heals and a stun-shout while you're at it...

/irony off

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:03 PM by biGGio

Please don't change debuff.

I don't know who is complaining of debuff trains, but its not that bad. You already increased the HP pool of everyone. You're going to change DI AND decrease debuffs? That's crazy. DI will help prevent people to react, but don't punish the people who attempt to play casters (i.e. hib casters especially) and reduce the debuff.

I really feel like stuff like this should be voted on. If you wan't to fix any casters, because I'm sure its alb casters people are complaining about, reduce every lifetap by 5-10%.

The meta is so tank heavy it's getting silly.

AOM changes. DI changes. HP buff.

You're turning a great server into a mongo tank server. Please don't :/

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:06 PM by Corou

Please do not give bards root....They are strong enough as it is. There is absolutely no need for this change imo.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:09 PM by Hector

Please don’t nerf all caster debuff. If your idea is that hib casters need some love, I suggest giving mentalists STT and enchanter a single target root. Leave alb and mid casters alone. Problem solved without needing all casters across the board.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:13 PM by chewchew

Salidry wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 2:54 PM
what i feel is missing before anything should be commented is some argumentation and explanation on the changes from the devs team.
Why is there a need to nerf all casters again?
Why root on bard?
Why cabalist body spec dd buff? (It brings nothing as nobody specs full body)
Why up VR and DI?
Etc

^ this.
it would help understanding your reasoning to do these kind of changes. same goes for many changes you did before.
it would also help to maybe cool down emotions a bit before the changes hit and test the changes out for some time and after that everyone could review them under a bit more objective viewpoints.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:16 PM by Nando

Bards are strong as fuck - ever seen Azteq?

Rest of the Changes is the usual Alb Nerf due to complaining and crying - nothin new here.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:21 PM by Simon73

Damn bard have root.
We allready yell to druids not to root tanks, now we need to get worried also of bards.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:21 PM by Catkain

Bard root not approved. Other changes approved.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:22 PM by Lollie

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:21 PM
Damn bard have root.
We allready yell to druids not to root tanks, now we need to get worried also of bards.

This

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:23 PM by biGGio

"^ this.
it would help understanding your reasoning to do these kind of changes. same goes for many changes you did before.
it would also help to maybe cool down emotions a bit before the changes hit and test the changes out for some time and after that everyone could review them under a bit more objective viewpoints."

Because people are complaining about alb casters. They've been the best casters since game release. Now people are rr12 and casters are hitting very hard.

They've made the changes, but how many people do you know have aom9? I know plenty of high rr tanks that always pick mop over aom. You've presented tanks a way to reduce their damage vs casters. Increasing DI will help spike damage a bit, im not a huge fan of it but its better than a debuff nerf 100%

I must say, some of these posts are ridiculous.

People are worried about druids rooting tanks?

Bards too high util?

You either solo a lot or small man. Or you are a troll.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:27 PM by Valaraukar

Again to solve an issue with a faction, this time the Albs body debuff train, everyone get a nerf... Lol.

Mid caster setup will become non-existent after this change. They already are rare, and will just disappear.
And again we have a nerf to BD core mechanic, debuff+lt (it's a double nerf lol).
The cure ns to sham is totally useless, no shams will spec mending just to get it, especially because it will be no mid caster setup where it could be useful to have another cure ns toon, even with the 6 secs one.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:31 PM by Valaraukar

Nando wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:16 PM
Bards are strong as fuck - ever seen Azteq? Rest of the Changes is the usual Alb Nerf due to complaining and crying - nothin new here.

It seems to me that the nerf is for everyone. And if the albion caster setup was the strongest before this nerf, it will be the same after it, since it is not a "body debuff train" nerf, as it should have been. For what is worth we can dump all dark sm, bds and rc rms to the trashcan. And i see albs complaining for "their" nerf. This is ridiculous

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:34 PM by Strikejk

Soulstice wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:54 PM
what about Animist Life drain? will just get the reduction damage and no balance?

Yes. Animist, Necro and Reaver are all clearly OP with their lifetaps!

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:35 PM by jps

I understand you want to do something to balance the alb Bodytrain a bit .... but nerfing all the debuffs is the wrong way .... there are multiple other slight changes you could do or at least look into ..

to name some things that would help and have nothing to do with the changes at all:
- check Cabba pets (the dmg you don on them is ridicoulus low, the proc rate on the stun is amazingly high)
- take a look at the minstrel .... (especially your implementation of the flute mezz in combionation with the 0 effort pet control)

There is no need to nerf the debuffs, they should hit hard !

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:37 PM by DJ2000

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:08 PM
General:
- Delve of all resist debuffs reduced by 20% (50 -> 40, 30 -> 24, 15 -> 12)
- Lifedrain spells no longer gain 10% of their lifedrain return % as extra damage
- Spiritmaster darkness lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- Cabalist body lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is a buff and to offset the extra damage removal
- Bonedancer suppression instant lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 136, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- The concept of dual effect spells for resist purposes and their associated extra resist chance has been removed

- I would have welcomed the Debuff reduction before some other changes, but as it is now, i think it may be a bit too much. Meta shift unavoidable.
- Lifedrain reduction to take also a stab at all those MoC LD Casters seems all by itself ok'ish, SM, Cab, BD. What about the other ? Sorc? Ani? Necro? Reaver? VW?
- extra resist removal is something i like to see, as it not only works for LD spells but for all other Dual effects, like DD/snare, as well.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:08 PM
Class Changes:
- Shaman gets access to nearsight heal at 20 and 40 mending
- Bard receives a single target root
- Delve of Thane energy resist debuff has been about doubled (after the 20% nerf): 6 -> 10, 12 -> 20, 18 -> 30, 24 -> 40

- Shaman sounds good, was overdue. Impact will be somewhat missing as heavy Caster(NS spam) wont be the norm after this patch.
- Bard instant Root is the one that makes me "sweat" the most about any of these announced changes.
- I fear that (if it ever happens after this change) this change will prevent the Thane in any upcoming Style Reworks to get some DD on his Styles. kinda sad.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:08 PM
Realm Abilities:
- Divine Intervention had its values restored to its original value (from 750, 1125, 1500, 1875, 2250 to 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000)
- Vehement Renewal had its values restored to its original value (from 375, 650, 950, 1300, 1700 to 500, 875, 1250, 1750, 2250)

- Ok, i agree that anything below DI3 was kinda useless, but DI3 itself was nowhere near worth the RP spent for it. That changes now. Hello DI2, you lookin' fine..
- Not sure what to think about this. Every 8man Ward/sham will love to take this freebie, while on Alb there has to be a change coming now with all the Healing on the other realm grps now (Friar/Pala).

Besides the Bard one ... All in all, thumps up. Will have to see how things shape up.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:40 PM by Valaraukar

jps wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:35 PM
I understand you want to do something to balance the alb Bodytrain a bit .... but nerfing all the debuffs is the wrong way .... there are multiple other slight changes you could do or at least look into ..

to name some things that would help and have nothing to do with the changes at all:
- check Cabba pets (the dmg you don on them is ridicoulus low, the proc rate on the stun is amazingly high)
- take a look at the minstrel .... (especially your implementation of the flute mezz in combionation with the 0 effort pet control)

There is no need to nerf the debuffs, they should hit hard !

Or make impossible to kite for an entire map while dealing debuff+damage.
This is the real issue with casters. Not the damage but the ridiculous situation where they can kite forever, with no endurance issues while running and casting out of reach of melees.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:42 PM by exveer

So who's gonna be the first 40 mend shaman?

Nose goes!

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:46 PM by Illusionist

gruenesschaf & Uthred

Please continue to make changes and evolve Phoenix. It cannot continue to remain as stale as it's been. A lot of the gameplay is still 18 years old. Regardless if people like it or not, people can learn how to adapt. People coming from Live obviously have to adapt to a lot given how many changes Live has seen over the 20+ years it's been around. Hopefully the resist nerf will lead to other changes that then make up for the nerf, perhaps styles changes where other debuffs occur from styles. It's a free server and I wouldn't be playing DAOC otherwise even though I miss a lot of the things I played with on live for 15 years. Appreciate you guys at least looking in to the game and making regular changes.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:55 PM by biGGio

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:37 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:08 PM
General:
- Delve of all resist debuffs reduced by 20% (50 -> 40, 30 -> 24, 15 -> 12)
- Lifedrain spells no longer gain 10% of their lifedrain return % as extra damage
- Spiritmaster darkness lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- Cabalist body lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is a buff and to offset the extra damage removal
- Bonedancer suppression instant lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 136, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- The concept of dual effect spells for resist purposes and their associated extra resist chance has been removed
- I would have welcomed the Debuff reduction before some other changes, but as it is now, i think it may be a bit too much. Meta shift unavoidable.
- Lifedrain reduction to take also a stab at all those MoC LD Casters seems all by itself ok'ish, SM, Cab, BD. What about the other ? Sorc? Ani? Necro? Reaver? VW?
- extra resist removal is something i like to see, as it not only works for LD spells but for all other Dual effects, like DD/snare, as well.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:08 PM
Class Changes:
- Shaman gets access to nearsight heal at 20 and 40 mending
- Bard receives a single target root
- Delve of Thane energy resist debuff has been about doubled (after the 20% nerf): 6 -> 10, 12 -> 20, 18 -> 30, 24 -> 40
- Shaman sounds good, was overdue. Impact will be somewhat missing as heavy Caster(NS spam) wont be the norm after this patch.
- Bard instant Root is the one that makes me "sweat" the most about any of these announced changes.
- I fear that (if it ever happens after this change) this change will prevent the Thane in any upcoming Style Reworks to get some DD on his Styles. kinda sad.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:08 PM
Realm Abilities:
- Divine Intervention had its values restored to its original value (from 750, 1125, 1500, 1875, 2250 to 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000)
- Vehement Renewal had its values restored to its original value (from 375, 650, 950, 1300, 1700 to 500, 875, 1250, 1750, 2250)
- Ok, i agree that anything below DI3 was kinda useless, but DI3 itself was nowhere near worth the RP spent for it. That changes now. Hello DI2, you lookin' fine..
- Not sure what to think about this. Every 8man Ward/sham will love to take this freebie, while on Alb there has to be a change coming now with all the Healing on the other realm grps now (Friar/Pala).

Besides the Bard one ... All in all, thumps up. Will have to see how things shape up.

A well written post, sorta. DI was never useless before the patch, it was a third insta heal that wasn't affected by disease and potentially have two of them up. There was no mention of a bard insta-root, just a bard root. They did this on live years ago along with a number of other changes because bard's utility outside of small man is low. Mezz, hope amnesia resists for rupts, and then dd. Don't say heal, because if you heal on a bard outside the very rare occasion, there's something else you should be doing.

A simple suggestion would be to nerf LD spells as you stated already. Start with a small change and see how that works. Do not change the debuffs. Do a PSA to remind people to spec into AOM. I'm sure many aren't doing it. When their tank gets rr12 they can get AOM9 and be a live lord, but until then Iggirl and the likes get to hit hard because they put the time in to their toons over the last year and a half almost two years.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 4:16 PM by Echoic

Horrible changes overall that obviously weren't well thought out. Typical "alb doing good must nerf" mentality.
No explanations/comments as to why this is taking place either...pathetic devs. Oh yeah "No more upcoming changes" btw

Mon 21 Dec 2020 4:26 PM by bculpepper

So - debuffed damage is reduced by ~6% and people think the world is falling and caster groups are no longer viable?

Good grief..... You can't make any change without all the QQ

Mon 21 Dec 2020 4:38 PM by biGGio

bculpepper wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 4:26 PM
So - debuffed damage is reduced by ~6% and people think the world is falling and caster groups are no longer viable?

Good grief..... You can't make any change without all the QQ

It's everything on conjunction with it. DI change, hp buff, aom buff, now debuff.

All because casuals cant put a dd charge on their boots or coordinate interrupts. Or better yet, pan and see they're over extending.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:00 PM by Seelixh

Terrible update again.

You should rather replace some devs and focus on more important stuff like your already existing code that doesn't work properly.
Not even any reasons or statements from the crew why the update was needed.

0% transparency.
btw. Uthred, will I get any indemnity because u killed me with ur macro in a tower once? I dont think so.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:03 PM by Neso

Strange changes, given the recent feedback votes etc.

Root on a bard is just silly.
Tanks had a previous HP and AOM buff, now a caster debuff nerf. Someone really wants tanker setups.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:05 PM by Kaziera

Seelixh wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:00 PM
Terrible update again.

You should rather replace some devs and focus on more important stuff like your already existing code that doesn't work properly.
Not even any reasons or statements from the crew why the update was needed.

0% transparency.
btw. Uthred, will I get any indemnity because u killed me with ur macro in a tower once? I dont think so.

The change is needed, because there are always the same group setups. The meta has become stale. By the way, these are 8man oriented changes. Dont expect to understand them, if u dont play 8man.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:11 PM by DJ2000

biGGio wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:55 PM
There was no mention of a bard insta-root, just a bard root.

You are absolutely right, my bad. Thank you for the correction. Won't make me sweat any less though...

Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:14 PM by Seelixh

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:05 PM
Seelixh wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:00 PM
Terrible update again.

You should rather replace some devs and focus on more important stuff like your already existing code that doesn't work properly.
Not even any reasons or statements from the crew why the update was needed.

0% transparency.
btw. Uthred, will I get any indemnity because u killed me with ur macro in a tower once? I dont think so.

The change is needed, because there are always the same group setups. The meta has become stale. By the way, these are 8man oriented changes. Dont expect to understand them, if u dont play 8man.

So the bard can't root me when I play Duo?

Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:18 PM by tape85

Will BD dark pets get a damage increase to compensate? SM PBAE? This will affect Midgard DS/HoH substantially.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:27 PM by Kurdy

Hector wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:59 PM
-Caster damage can be stopped by interrupting them, tank dps can never be stopped by rupt

Should I keep going

if you don't know how to stop a tank you should ask for help & tips instead of blaming ppl.

there is no shame if you missing some Daoc mechanics.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:27 PM by Bry

The focus seems to be around the alb body train. Alb caster groups aren't successful because of the 50% debuff alone. They are successful for many reasons:
1) the 50% body debuff is obtained at level 46, which allows more points to be put in to body. This allows for improved variance on the baseline body nuke. Hib and Mid get the 50% heat and cold (respectively) debuffs at level 48, which allows for only 22 in their baseline nuke lines.
2) the baseline body nuke in Alb is a 2.5s cast where Hib and Mid are both 2.6s casts.
3) both sorcs and cabs get pets, which means alb caster groups tend to have more pets than hib/mid. Plus, the theurg which all they do is spam pets.

If you want to adjust the OP alb body train, then do that. Move the body debuff to level 48 and change the baseline lifetap to 2.6s to make it in line with the other realms. Balance across realms. Don't blanket nerf the entire server. All this does is hurt the hib caster group which is already gimpy and almost nobody plays. Mids haven't run a full caster group in ages. The mid hybrid was doing really well before this. This change, after the AOM buff (which was rediculously overpowered btw) only serves to encourage everybody to play tanks.

Thank you for adding root to bards. The only cc in the class without root now is on par with the other realms cc classes. This was needed ages ago. Sincerely, thank you. Bard confuse is still 3.5s cast time, while sorc confuse is 2.5s cast time. Bards need a 2.5s cast confuse like its supposed to be. This change was made on live many many moons ago. It will allow a bard to actually have a chance to cast it vs speed 6 earth pets.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:38 PM by Valaraukar

tape85 wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:18 PM
Will BD dark pets get a damage increase to compensate? SM PBAE? This will affect Midgard DS/HoH substantially.

Don't know how it will affect pve. I hope it won't affect it at all or it will be another complete nerf to BDs instead of albion body train 😂

Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:45 PM by Valaraukar

Bry wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:27 PM
Thank you for adding root to bards. The only cc in the class without root now is on par with the other realms cc classes. This was needed ages ago. Sincerely, thank you. Bard confuse is still 3.5s cast time, while sorc confuse is 2.5s cast time. Bards need a 2.5s cast confuse like its supposed to be. This change was made on live many many moons ago. It will allow a bard to actually have a chance to cast it vs speed 6 earth pets.

Talking about confusion? Try mid where you get it on a supp runemaster (just why) and not on a cc class at all...

Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:46 PM by Soundrak

Are you kidding me? What a horrible decision! This just helps players who don't understand how easy it is to interrupt a caster while crippling casters groups even more vs tankers who know how easy it is to push them over. Bad change all around, don't do it.

Also, there's something called AOM, and it was quite significantly increased. People should try it.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:00 PM by Egonek

I think its all a joke.

sry for my english btw.

In the Beta after Doki Doki club was cry a lot because they cant kill people.

YOU NERF ALL SINGLE HEALS!!!

After some Times People GET HIGHER RR and SPEC dmg RA's.

Then the CRY was big that people DIE to fast. What you do?

You give all player MORE HP. For longer fights?

NEXT: Player get still more RR and still more DMG ra's. ok People die still to fast. What you do?

You give PDF and AOM more resists from 20->30%. Fine.

But you think That people spec AOM/PDF? no. realy. Try to kill a light Tank or Full Tank with AOM9 and max resists. YOU lose MORE then 50% power... Without any Heal.

Now you nerf the Debuffs. Now you increase DI.

Your fail was on STEP1 TO nerf Heals in Beta after people with RR3 was crying that they cant people.. I remember this realy good.

Balance change's

You give the bard a single root? realy?

Bard has single/aoe mezz. single/aoe inst mezz. single/aoe amnesia. inst DD for rupt. PEEEEEEL!!! styls!!!!!!

and yes. now he is need a single root.

Good that clerics still fucing useless in CC with a useless CAST stun..

Healer--> MEZZ/ROOT
Sham--> ROOT

Druid -->ROOT
Bard--> Mezz/root.

friar ---> nothink
Cleric --> cast STUN!! completle useless... vs resists 4-5 sek and then 1min immune to stun.

Midgard/Hibernia supporter have high utility for CC on range. Albion have still nothink.

NEXT change BALANCE:

NS heal for SHAM.
Midgard normaly setup 2 Healer 1 sham = 3x NS cure
Hibernia 2x Druid/1xWarden (after warden NS LOVE) = 3x NS cure

Albion
2 clerics or 1 cleric and 1x friar= 2x NS cure.

Agains nerf vs albion.

Next Change. Reduce resist from 12,5 to 10%.
Double effect on spell's = must still have a bit higher resist chance. i am a big fun from snare nukes and life leech. but the 12,5% resist chance is ok for this spells i think.

Somethink else. nothink to do with this patch note's.

I understand that you nerf VP/ICHOR from dmg with LOW hp. but maybe afer HP love its time to buff them back?
or otherwice why you dont nerf TWF? on live TWF was never so strong as here on Phoenix.

On live you have 25% essence resists = lower dmg from TWF.
On live you have a lot of Power Pool that you can healout a TWF.

but on Phoenix you dont nerf TWF. we dont have Power pool. you nerf heals. TWF is completle to strong on Phoenix.

All tower/keep Fights are ending with TWF or Malestorm.
how you can fix?
for example. TWF dont rupt more. Because its COMPLETLE useless TO have 30s MOC with 75% value on Phoenix without HEAL bonus/Power pool to spec MOC on healer..
Nerf dmg from TWF.

Thanks for reading. dont flame me

Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:03 PM by Dexy

biGGio wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:03 PM
Please don't change debuff.

I don't know who is complaining of debuff trains, but its not that bad. You already increased the HP pool of everyone. You're going to change DI AND decrease debuffs? That's crazy. DI will help prevent people to react, but don't punish the people who attempt to play casters (i.e. hib casters especially) and reduce the debuff.

I really feel like stuff like this should be voted on. If you wan't to fix any casters, because I'm sure its alb casters people are complaining about, reduce every lifetap by 5-10%.

The meta is so tank heavy it's getting silly.

AOM changes. DI changes. HP buff.

You're turning a great server into a mongo tank server. Please don't :/

seriously ? ...Tank meta ? ...you play on phoenix ? Right? ... i can´t see a melee meta ...

Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:19 PM by XOX

the best christmas gift i could get! tnks devs

Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:30 PM by biGGio

Dexy wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:03 PM
biGGio wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:03 PM
Please don't change debuff.

I don't know who is complaining of debuff trains, but its not that bad. You already increased the HP pool of everyone. You're going to change DI AND decrease debuffs? That's crazy. DI will help prevent people to react, but don't punish the people who attempt to play casters (i.e. hib casters especially) and reduce the debuff.

I really feel like stuff like this should be voted on. If you wan't to fix any casters, because I'm sure its alb casters people are complaining about, reduce every lifetap by 5-10%.

The meta is so tank heavy it's getting silly.

AOM changes. DI changes. HP buff.

You're turning a great server into a mongo tank server. Please don't :/

seriously ? ...Tank meta ? ...you play on phoenix ? Right? ... i can´t see a melee meta ...

All these changes and you don't see it? Weird. I do play phoenix, I don't zerg though. Still shouldnt nerf bat all casters cause ALB is high util and people are rr12. Doesn't make sense and then boost DI again.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:32 PM by btbomb

Oh thanks. Didn’t know my already super low utility Runemaster needed a nerf lmao. What a joke.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:32 PM by Patron

Hello folks.

I like the fact the meta is changed from time to time with little nerfs or buffs.
We can avoid the game get static and boring and create some new exciting content. I like this, thanks Devs.

But ofc, the question is, was this the right changes? Time will tell, or some players which have foresight.
Problem is, every player think to have this gift, me included.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:39 PM by Davidalmightydaoc85

Dexy wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:03 PM
biGGio wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:03 PM
Please don't change debuff.

I don't know who is complaining of debuff trains, but its not that bad. You already increased the HP pool of everyone. You're going to change DI AND decrease debuffs? That's crazy. DI will help prevent people to react, but don't punish the people who attempt to play casters (i.e. hib casters especially) and reduce the debuff.

I really feel like stuff like this should be voted on. If you wan't to fix any casters, because I'm sure its alb casters people are complaining about, reduce every lifetap by 5-10%.

The meta is so tank heavy it's getting silly.

AOM changes. DI changes. HP buff.

You're turning a great server into a mongo tank server. Please don't :/

seriously ? ...Tank meta ? ...you play on phoenix ? Right? ... i can´t see a melee meta ...

Have you not got hit by the mid tank train? What a joke.

Bards getting root? Are you kidding me.

All I got to say is, if you make one more change without addressing the BS GvG crap.....I’m done with this server.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:42 PM by cakins83

Egonek wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:00 PM
I think its all a joke.

sry for my english btw.

In the Beta after Doki Doki club was cry a lot because they cant people.

YOU NERF ALL SINGLE HEALS!!!

After some Times People GET HIGHER RR and SPEC dmg RA's.

Then the CRY was big that people DIE to fast. What you do?

You give all player MORE HP. For longer fights?

NEXT: Player get still more RR and still more DMG ra's. ok People die still to fast. What you do?

You give PDF and AOM more resists from 20->30%. Fine.

But you think That people spec AOM/PDF? no. realy. Try to kill a light Tank or Full Tank with AOM9 and max resists. YOU lose MORE then 50% power... Without any Heal.

Now you nerf the Debuffs. Now you increase DI.

Your fail was on STEP1 TO nerf Heals in Beta after people with RR3 was crying that they cant people.. I remember this realy good.

Balance change's

You give the bard a single root? realy?

Bard has single/aoe mezz. single/aoe inst mezz. single/aoe amnesia. inst DD for rupt. PEEEEEEL!!! styls!!!!!!

and yes. now he is need a single root.

Good that clerics still fucing useless in CC with a useless CAST stun..

Healer--> MEZZ/ROOT
Sham--> ROOT

Druid -->ROOT
Bard--> Mezz/root.

friar ---> nothink
Cleric --> cast STUN!! completle useless... vs resists 4-5 sek and then 1min immune to stun.

Midgard/Hibernia supporter have high utility for CC on range. Albion have still nothink.

NEXT change BALANCE:

NS heal for SHAM.
Midgard normaly setup 2 Healer 1 sham = 3x NS cure
Hibernia 2x Druid/1xWarden (after warden NS LOVE) = 3x NS cure

Albion
2 clerics or 1 cleric and 1x friar= 2x NS cure.

Agains nerf vs albion.

Next Change. Reduce resist from 12,5 to 10%.
Double effect on spell's = must still have a bit higher resist chance. i am a big fun from snare nukes and life leech. but the 12,5% resist chance is ok for this spells i think.

Somethink else. nothink to do with this patch note's.

I understand that you nerf VP/ICHOR from dmg with LOW hp. but maybe afer HP love its time to buff them back?
or otherwice why you dont nerf TWF? on live TWF was never so strong as here on Phoenix.

On live you have 25% essence resists = lower dmg from TWF.
On live you have a lot of Power Pool that you can healout a TWF.

but on Phoenix you dont nerf TWF. we dont have Power pool. you nerf heals. TWF is completle to strong on Phoenix.

All tower/keep Fights are ending with TWF or Malestorm.
how you can fix?
for example. TWF dont rupt more. Because its COMPLETLE useless TO have 30s MOC with 75% value on Phoenix without HEAL bonus/Power pool to spec MOC on healer..
Nerf dmg from TWF.

Thanks for reading. dont flame me

Friar has nothing? How about a 27s side snare?

The problem the caster groups complain about is easily countered. You can’t mongo W good groups or you’ll simply get blown up. Snares interrupt tank damage, and hibs have the lowest and weakest snares (but arguably the best tanks so it seems to even out).

Some of you have never been conquered and it shows.

I don’t think adding a root to the bard will be game changing, but it will be an interesting shift in 8 man because maybe the nature doesn’t have to push so hard to root support now? We shall see.

I welcome the changes. Daoc is all fun and we’re here because we love the game, but everything needs change from time to time or people get bored.

I applaud the effort to keep the game fresh and ever changing.

Tormz

Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:45 PM by biGGio

Have you not got hit by the mid tank train? What a joke.

Bards getting root? Are you kidding me.

All I got to say is, if you make one more change without addressing the BS GvG crap.....I’m done with this server.

Why is bards getting root such a big deal? Alb has 3 roots, mid has 3, sometimes 4 or 5. Hib has two lol.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:46 PM by khafree

Hope this does not effect Earth Wiz, Void Eld debuffs? Don't nerf under populated classes.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:56 PM by Amariidi

I main as a sorc, but I still understand that something needs to be done to the alb caster setup. Last night on US primetime there were 5 alb 8 mans out, 1 hib, and 1 mid group. Alb seemed to dominate every fight. I understand player skill has a ton to do with who is going to win an 8 man fight, but with all things being equal, the alb caster setup just holds too much of an advantage. There is a reason we are seeing the discrepancy in the number of 8 man groups that are usually out between realms. I am not sure if the changes above are the right ones, because I worry it may nerf it too much, but if we are being honest with ourselves, something needs to be done.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 7:08 PM by Nephamael

I main as a sorc, but I still understand that something needs to be done to the alb caster setup. Last night on US primetime there were 5 alb 8 mans out, 1 hib, and 1 mid group. Alb seemed to dominate every fight. I understand player skill has a ton to do with who is going to win an 8 man fight, but with all things being equal, the alb caster setup just holds too much of an advantage. There is a reason we are seeing the discrepancy in the number of 8 man groups that are usually out between realms. I am not sure if the changes above are the right ones, because I worry it may nerf it too much, but if we are being honest with ourselves, something needs to be done.

i agree but i think there is 1 thing we have to adjust now:

since the HP rework a perfectly played castergroup runs into serious power problems at the end of every fight vs a tankgroup, even if the tankgroup plays very suboptimal.

With the new debuff nerf in effect we need to adjust the powerpool to match the %HP bonus of the HP buff to keep power from being a primary 8v8 decider or forcing casters into even more than mcl2 and some aug acuity and etheral bond (most already play those3 to fight the power problems).

This problem is true for all 3 realms whenever they use baseline nuke caster assists.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 7:12 PM by Nephamael

- Bard receives a single target root

this is a nice small impact buff - bard has to choose if he wants to snare or root now - it will make bard considerably stronger for smallman but only give him a minor buff for 8v8 (nature druid/buffdruid compete with their own roots - in castergroups the animist does on top)

- i still think making amnesia only apply combat in 2000 range, while letting it rupt in 2300 would be a good idea.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 7:17 PM by Seelixh

biGGio wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:45 PM
Have you not got hit by the mid tank train? What a joke.

Bards getting root? Are you kidding me.

All I got to say is, if you make one more change without addressing the BS GvG crap.....I’m done with this server.

Why is bards getting root such a big deal? Alb has 3 roots, mid has 3, sometimes 4 or 5. Hib has two lol.

Because if you are a good bard, you can like perma-cc/interrupt casters. You CAN'T do much against it.
Necromancers for example waste all power on just trying to cast and get amnesia spammed. => No damage output, power waste and all that because of one bard. Now this bard will also get root.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 7:54 PM by Krakkon

Amariidi wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:56 PM
I main as a sorc, but I still understand that something needs to be done to the alb caster setup. Last night on US primetime there were 5 alb 8 mans out, 1 hib, and 1 mid group. Alb seemed to dominate every fight. I understand player skill has a ton to do with who is going to win an 8 man fight, but with all things being equal, the alb caster setup just holds too much of an advantage. There is a reason we are seeing the discrepancy in the number of 8 man groups that are usually out between realms. I am not sure if the changes above are the right ones, because I worry it may nerf it too much, but if we are being honest with ourselves, something needs to be done.

Next year i'll vote for you for nobel prize

Mon 21 Dec 2020 7:55 PM by iamsaitam

Why are Bards getting a root? It would be useful to have explanations for these changes. Bards don't need more toys.. currently you see often hib groups running 2 bards because of how much value they add. Please re-think this change.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 8:01 PM by kedelin

iamsaitam wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 7:55 PM
Why are Bards getting a root? It would be useful to have explanations for these changes. Bards don't need more toys.. currently you see often hib groups running 2 bards because of how much value they add. Please re-think this change.

they run 2 bards cause you have to for 2 demezz.. they should have had root and second dd from the beginning

Mon 21 Dec 2020 8:10 PM by Delegator

Trying to understand the lifedrain changes:

Elimination of double resist mechanic for multi-component spells (lifedrain, dd/snare, etc.) = unvarnished good thing
Lifedrain damage nerfed by taking out the 10% return as extra damage, BUT delves increased == seems like a no-op?
Necromancers, reavers, valewalkers, and animists do not get delve increases on their lifedrains

So was the intent of all that just to nerf necros, reavers and animist lifedrain? Or is this prep for adding lifedrain procs, and the nerf of some but not all lifedrain casters is a side effect?

Mon 21 Dec 2020 8:21 PM by Davidalmightydaoc85

biGGio wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:45 PM
Have you not got hit by the mid tank train? What a joke.

Bards getting root? Are you kidding me.

All I got to say is, if you make one more change without addressing the BS GvG crap.....I’m done with this server.

Why is bards getting root such a big deal? Alb has 3 roots, mid has 3, sometimes 4 or 5. Hib has two lol.

Here’s why. How many heal classes do Albs have? 2. Now how many do hibs have? 4. How many can CC on alb, besides a cheesey ass 9 sec stun? None... 27 second side snare??? Lmao good luck getting that off while chasing people. 0. How many can cc on hib? Now 3, but can’t remember if warden has any cc...lol

Mon 21 Dec 2020 8:57 PM by Maca

dreginkt wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 1:26 PM
Soooo we were the last hib caster group running during NA prime time, all the other guilds have gone to a 4/4 melee/naty build for the most part. I guess we will too? I understand the alb body train groups are ridiculous, we fight them all the time and know how it is. I am not sure if nerfing debuffs across the board was the right move. I'd recommend maybe nerfing it for albion or changing what level they get it but finding some other way besides nerfing all debuffs would be ideal. Mids do have a few cold debuff groups that are barely viable but this kills that as well. By trying to balance the alb body train with an across the board nerf you just rendered hib/mid group comps invalid. Re-think it, thank you.

If you go this route, consider increasing the spec DD nuke for RMs and Ments to help keeping hib/mid caster viable.

Your just getting out played . You do know u can interrupt. All I read is u want to nerf albs and buff hibs/mids

Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:01 PM by genova

Spiritmaster darkness lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- Cabalist body lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is a buff and to offset the extra damage removal

Eeeeeeeeeeeee.
Up DD Caba level 45 to do the same damage DD SM dark level 47??
Up instant DD bard to do the same damage RA pillar 5 too no?

Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:23 PM by biGGio

Lmao. They run two bards cause of the utility? Like the other poster said. Its for demezz. Every group has two demezzes except a hib 4/4.

Root is fine and affects small man only

Compare bard to ccers of other realms then let me know how it compares to even an aug healer. Ill wait lol

Also, alb is the best realm. The reason the alb groups were winning i think was a lack of skill on behalf of the mids and hibs tho. Pretty sure the 8v8 scene is left with a handful of above average players who pug consistently against lower skilled inferior setups

And to the person who said bards can dominate, you’ve obviously not played a bard in a 4/4 with ruby and yellow sorc pet stuck you. Bards are a good class but they’re not as utility friendly as a sorc or Healer

Keep caster damage the same. Dont implement the debuff change. If you whine about caster damage and dont have aom9 and instead have damage ras then thats your fault which is attributed to lack of skill most likely. Have your group get baod like druids get bof and stop spamming dps passives even tho u think i Am ThE dAmAGe

Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:26 PM by Johny Rousquille

Youhou, #I got the power sound !!!

Next up, Maelstrom or Twf or make 1 ra point = 2 only for thane plz

Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:28 PM by Eoril

I don't know about these changes but I agree with what many have said : need to adjust the powerpool to match the %HP bonus

Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:36 PM by easytoremember

What of lifetap procs on armor and weapons?

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:27 PM
The cure ns to sham is totally useless, no shams will spec mending just to get it, especially because it will be no mid caster setup where it could be useful to have another cure ns toon, even with the 6 secs one.

this has uses for keeps, towers, and the like; not everything is centered upon 8v8

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:05 PM
The change is needed, because there are always the same group setups. The meta has become stale.

sincerely stupid

genova wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:01 PM
Spiritmaster darkness lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- Cabalist body lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is a buff and to offset the extra damage removal

Eeeeeeeeeeeee.
Up DD Caba level 45 to do the same damage DD SM dark level 47??
Up instant DD bard to do the same damage RA pillar 5 too no?

Is there a Cabalist anywhere that has 45 points into Body?

biGGio wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:23 PM
Keep caster damage the same. Dont implement the debuff change. If you whine about caster damage and dont have aom9 and instead have damage ras then thats your fault which is attributed to lack of skill most likely.

oooooooor the class doesn't have AoM

Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:43 PM by biGGio

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:36 PM
What of lifetap procs on armor and weapons?
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:27 PM
The cure ns to sham is totally useless, no shams will spec mending just to get it, especially because it will be no mid caster setup where it could be useful to have another cure ns toon, even with the 6 secs one.
this has uses for keeps, towers, and the like; not everything is centered upon 8v8

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:05 PM
The change is needed, because there are always the same group setups. The meta has become stale.
sincerely stupid

genova wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:01 PM
Spiritmaster darkness lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- Cabalist body lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is a buff and to offset the extra damage removal

Eeeeeeeeeeeee.
Up DD Caba level 45 to do the same damage DD SM dark level 47??
Up instant DD bard to do the same damage RA pillar 5 too no?
Is there a Cabalist anywhere that has 45 points into Body?

biGGio wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:23 PM
Keep caster damage the same. Dont implement the debuff change. If you whine about caster damage and dont have aom9 and instead have damage ras then thats your fault which is attributed to lack of skill most likely.
oooooooor the class doesn't have AoM

This is where I’m baffled. So alb and hib should have two ns cures but not mid. Specifically for keep fights? It’s centered around 8v8 because the 100v100 fights have no balance. How would you fine tune anythjng from that except los issues? You’re not surviving a debuff nuke from 10 plus people. Ever

And if you’re getting blapped by debuff casters on a class without aom you might want to look into your decision making during fights. Or are you one of those dudes who is screaming why no one else is up there with you as you get collapsed on with your own support cc’d?

It could never be your fault tho. Its def Op alb waaaah

Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:12 PM by Bowspine

how much less damage will BD pets do in pve? If I now have a 50% debuff to a 40% debuff, what % of that total 10% is applied to the mob ? In short is dark BD going to be effective enough to farm?

Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:18 PM by Enyore

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:08 PM
ETA next couple days.

General:
- Delve of all resist debuffs reduced by 20% (50 -> 40, 30 -> 24, 15 -> 12)
- Lifedrain spells no longer gain 10% of their lifedrain return % as extra damage
- Spiritmaster darkness lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- Cabalist body lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is a buff and to offset the extra damage removal
- Bonedancer suppression instant lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 136, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- The concept of dual effect spells for resist purposes and their associated extra resist chance has been removed

Class Changes:
- Shaman gets access to nearsight heal at 20 and 40 mending
- Bard receives a single target root
- Delve of Thane energy resist debuff has been about doubled (after the 20% nerf): 6 -> 10, 12 -> 20, 18 -> 30, 24 -> 40

Realm Abilities:
- Divine Intervention had its values restored to its original value (from 750, 1125, 1500, 1875, 2250 to 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000)
- Vehement Renewal had its values restored to its original value (from 375, 650, 950, 1300, 1700 to 500, 875, 1250, 1750, 2250)

- Interesting to see the changes to the debuffs and life taps... lets see where this goes.
- Cool about Vehement renewal and DI... good change as they are not worth the points at the moment.
- Shaman and Thane change are OK - seems fair enough.

However, I really don't understand why you would give the bard a root spell??? ...... it will do NOTHING to the zerg meta, nothing whatsoever but will have a massive impact on the smallman play and also for the GvG play, does hibs really need more CC ? .... what problem is it you are trying to fix with this change? .. I don't understand the thought process behind this change and it seems rather random. Could you clarify?

Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:26 PM by Mainevent

I'm about this patch lets do it merry xmas ! i mean lets break it down this way sorc gets mezz and root theurgist gets mezz and root sm gets mez and root healer gets mez and root with stuns as well bout time bards get something to deal with an alb group running 1 mini 1 red pet 1 caby if not 2 with 2 pets and 15 theurgists pets from a theurgist and 2 sorcs and 2 pets

Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:40 PM by

gruenesschaf

Enyore wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:18 PM
However, I really don't understand why you would give the bard a root spell??? ...... it will do NOTHING to the zerg meta, nothing whatsoever but will have a massive impact on the smallman play and also for the GvG play, does hibs really need more CC ? .... what problem is it you are trying to fix with this change? .. I don't understand the thought process behind this change and it seems rather random. Could you clarify?

First we ran this wheel:

Then we ran this wheel:

Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:43 PM by Kaziera

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:36 PM
What of lifetap procs on armor and weapons?
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:27 PM
The cure ns to sham is totally useless, no shams will spec mending just to get it, especially because it will be no mid caster setup where it could be useful to have another cure ns toon, even with the 6 secs one.
this has uses for keeps, towers, and the like; not everything is centered upon 8v8

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 5:05 PM
The change is needed, because there are always the same group setups. The meta has become stale.
sincerely stupid

genova wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:01 PM
Spiritmaster darkness lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- Cabalist body lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is a buff and to offset the extra damage removal

Eeeeeeeeeeeee.
Up DD Caba level 45 to do the same damage DD SM dark level 47??
Up instant DD bard to do the same damage RA pillar 5 too no?
Is there a Cabalist anywhere that has 45 points into Body?

biGGio wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:23 PM
Keep caster damage the same. Dont implement the debuff change. If you whine about caster damage and dont have aom9 and instead have damage ras then thats your fault which is attributed to lack of skill most likely.
oooooooor the class doesn't have AoM

Sincereley stupid.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:58 PM by easytoremember

biGGio wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:43 PM
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:36 PM
biGGio wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:23 PM
Keep caster damage the same. Dont implement the debuff change. If you whine about caster damage and dont have aom9 and instead have damage ras then thats your fault which is attributed to lack of skill most likely.
oooooooor the class doesn't have AoM
And if you’re getting blapped by debuff casters on a class without aom you might want to look into your decision making during fights. Or are you one of those dudes who is screaming why no one else is up there with you as you get collapsed on with your own support cc’d?

It could never be your fault tho. Its def Op alb waaaah

You said it was their fault for RA choice not me

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:40 PM
First we ran this wheel:

Then we ran this wheel:

wouldn't even be mad if this was true

Mon 21 Dec 2020 11:05 PM by hyshash

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:40 PM
Enyore wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:18 PM
However, I really don't understand why you would give the bard a root spell??? ...... it will do NOTHING to the zerg meta, nothing whatsoever but will have a massive impact on the smallman play and also for the GvG play, does hibs really need more CC ? .... what problem is it you are trying to fix with this change? .. I don't understand the thought process behind this change and it seems rather random. Could you clarify?

First we ran this wheel:

Then we ran this wheel:

if you would balance this way the patches could actually be on a reasonable level

Mon 21 Dec 2020 11:48 PM by Tyrlaan

Your second wheel is missing Celerity.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 11:50 PM by Seelixh

hyshash wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 11:05 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:40 PM
Enyore wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:18 PM
However, I really don't understand why you would give the bard a root spell??? ...... it will do NOTHING to the zerg meta, nothing whatsoever but will have a massive impact on the smallman play and also for the GvG play, does hibs really need more CC ? .... what problem is it you are trying to fix with this change? .. I don't understand the thought process behind this change and it seems rather random. Could you clarify?

First we ran this wheel:

Then we ran this wheel:

if you would balance this way the patches could actually be on a reasonable level

I found the secret how they choose the next nerfed class...

Tue 22 Dec 2020 1:45 AM by Soundrak

Annoying this punishing a player for intelligently kiting and positioning to win fights. Simply stupid.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 2:38 AM by Stylus

Why punish casters across all realms cause some salty mid zergers got killed by a high rr Alb cru?

Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:44 AM by ExcretusMaximus

You're losing 7% damage against a debuffed target, compensated by delve increases to make it even less.

Stop acting like it's the end of the world.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:57 AM by sleeve

These changes will make it harder for smaller mid/alb groups, no way a shaman will spec 20mend lol let alone 40 rofl

Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:29 AM by easytoremember

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:44 AM
You're losing 7% damage against a debuffed target, compensated by delve increases to make it even less.

Try a 2nd read through

Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:42 AM by ExcretusMaximus

easytoremember wrote:
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 3:44 AM
You're losing 7% damage against a debuffed target, compensated by delve increases to make it even less.
Try a 2nd read through

I think maybe you should take your own advice.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:08 PM
Effects of the 20% debuff delve reduction:
Example against 26% item resists and 24% resist buff with previously 50 delve resist debuff:
Before / now:
50 * 1.25 = 62.5 = 62
62 - 24 = 38
38 / 2 = 19
26 - 19 = 7
Enemy has 7% resist after the debuff

After:
40 * 1.25 = 50
50 - 24 = 26
26 / 2 = 13
26 - 13 = 13
Enemy has 13% resist after the debuff

Example against 26% item resists and no resist buff with previously 50 delve resist debuff:
Before / now:
50 * 1.25 = 62.5 = 62
62 / 2 = 31
26 - 31 = -5
Enemy has -5% resist after the debuff

After:
40 * 1.25 = 50
50 / 2 = 25
26 - 25 = 1
Enemy has 1% resist after the debuff

Effects on the alb body train:
Affected by the 20% debuff reduction like all caster groups plus the removal of lifedrain extra damage (6% for the baseline nuke), however, the latter is largely offset by the removal of the 2.5% extra resist chance (lifedrain counts as dual effect spell).

Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:06 AM by

gruenesschaf

The lifedrain change is putting the body debuff train in line with the other debuff trains.

Example, if you nuke for 475 today on a target with 26 item resists and 24 buff resists after the 50 delve debuff:
475 / 0.93 = 510, this is the damage before resists
510 / 1.06 = 481, this is the damage before resists and without the 6% damage increase a 60% lifedrain return lifedrain has
481 * 0.93 = 447, this is the damage after only the lifedrain change if there were no additional debuff change, meaning the damage the other debuff nuker are doing now given the same circumstances
481 * 0.87 = 418, this is the damage after both changes, this is also the same damage for the other debuff nuker that currently nuke for 447 with the same stats etc.

Given that you had an extra 2.5% resist chance, you lost an average of 12 damage on every cast kind of making it 463 before all changes.
Non body trains went from 447 to 418, the body train basically went from 463 to 418. However, given the importance of burst, the resist chance decrease might in practice be more impactful than the 12 average damage suggest.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:26 AM by easytoremember

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:42 AM
compensated by delve increases to make it even less.

where?

Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:37 AM by Johny Rousquille

I, who thought you were serious, hard-working, overworked guys, thinking about new updates, have been trying to understand how you work.

But in fact, the secret is there, thank you for showing us your great software called Roulette.

It contains random updates that you get just by turning the wheel, it's the wheel of Fortune!

I tough there was no logic in this update.

I'm wondering if you people have the same answer or not, like an answer roulette. So I have to come up with 0 answers all the time. Mute the 24 hour maybe?

Guys, they make a lottery draw without broadcasting and then they announce you the winner!

Personally you would have a record for a problem of transparency, but it wasn't written on film on the roulette wheel maybe,

Pheonix chat roulette soon?

I'm going to be serious with you, but you're celebrating me laughing. I never laughed alot before this Dark Age Of Pheonix game

On those to pass of good party and a good Christmas, too bad once again 0 decoration on the game,

Ok ok I stop! Happy Holidays (if the roulette wheel decides so)

Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:52 AM by Shadowkill

there are shaman with 20 mending already ? no

why ? cause shaman need 42 aug and 27 cave to get yellow double buff and PBAE disease, so with 20 mending shaman lost Buff Or Pbae disease

so cure NS on sham as you suggest... it's just a joke.

Folks just want a daoc classic server.. why so many change ? Btw you are not Gamemaster, but players, you are players with power of Gamemaster... so you still up your own realm... that's so obvious since I have played on phoenix... that's boring

And we can't speak really with some GM cause they 're Troller too.... very nice spirit !! GG phoenix you'are awesome !!! Keep going !!!

Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:08 AM by easytoremember

Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:52 AM
why ? cause shaman need 42 aug and 27 cave to get yellow double buff and PBAE disease, so with 20 mending shaman lost Buff Or Pbae disease

so cure NS on sham as you suggest... it's just a joke.

I'm not seeing how Mending getting 2 new spells is bad for Shaman
20 Mending isn't popular sure. Is it completely unused? No
It doesn't fit in your meta build? So what?

Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:14 AM by Shadowkill

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:08 AM
Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:52 AM
why ? cause shaman need 42 aug and 27 cave to get yellow double buff and PBAE disease, so with 20 mending shaman lost Buff Or Pbae disease

so cure NS on sham as you suggest... it's just a joke.
I'm not seeing how Mending getting 2 new spells is bad for Shaman
20 Mending isn't popular sure. Is it completely unused? No
It doesn't fit in your meta build? So what?

it's not "MY" meta build, it's just shaman meta, look about shaman mending line... shaman are not good as healer, even with high spec on mending... it's why shaman with mending is joke

then I have never said 2 new spells is bad for shaman, just to put this on 20 and 40 mending is joke

In fact the real probem I think, is GM doesn't know how certains classes work, so they planned some changement but... yes it's like use a Wheel as said BestGmEver Gruesne...

Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:16 AM by Johny Rousquille

Doesn't it fit into your meta-construction? So what if it does?

You have the answer in your question, and you ask, so what? I don't think you're playing on mid, but it's like if I add you an important spell, in the spe that you use the less for rvr, knowing that you're going to lose buff power to get it, and you say, so what ? the NS cure on sham is 6 seconds I think, and you ask again, so what ? it's undressing Peter to dress Paul, so you don't gain anything more.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:19 AM by ExcretusMaximus

easytoremember wrote:
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:42 AM
compensated by delve increases to make it even less.
where?

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:08 PM
General:
- Spiritmaster darkness lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- Cabalist body lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is a buff and to offset the extra damage removal
- Bonedancer suppression instant lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 136, this is to offset the extra damage removal

Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:24 AM by Simon73

Egonek wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:00 PM
I think its all a joke.

Healer--> MEZZ/ROOT
Sham--> ROOT

Druid -->ROOT
Bard--> Mezz/root.

friar ---> nothink
Cleric --> cast STUN!! completle useless... vs resists 4-5 sek and then 1min immune to stun.

True.. but

MID
SM has root
rM has root

ALB
Sorc has root
Theurg has root
Wizzyhas root
Cabbyhas root

HIB
Ani has root

So, Mid has 4 classes that can root
Alb 4
Hib now has 3 (was only animist and druid)
Or maybe i'm wrong?

Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:25 AM by gotwqqd

Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 6:52 AM
there are shaman with 20 mending already ? no

why ? cause shaman need 42 aug and 27 cave to get yellow double buff and PBAE disease, so with 20 mending shaman lost Buff Or Pbae disease

so cure NS on sham as you suggest... it's just a joke.

Folks just want a daoc classic server.. why so many change ? Btw you are not Gamemaster, but players, you are players with power of Gamemaster... so you still up your own realm... that's so obvious since I have played on phoenix... that's boring

And we can't speak really with some GM cause they 're Troller too.... very nice spirit !! GG phoenix you'are awesome !!! Keep going !!!

Seems like 42/27/20 is doable. With 6 points left

Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:27 AM by Shadowkill

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:24 AM
Egonek wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:00 PM
I think its all a joke.

Healer--> MEZZ/ROOT
Sham--> ROOT

Druid -->ROOT
Bard--> Mezz/root.

friar ---> nothink
Cleric --> cast STUN!! completle useless... vs resists 4-5 sek and then 1min immune to stun.

True.. but

MID
SM has root
rM has root

ALB
Sorc has root
Theurg has root
Wizzyhas root
Cabbyhas root

HIB
Ani has root

So, Mid has 4 classes that can root
Alb 4
Hib now has 3 (was only animist and druid)
Or maybe i'm wrong?

and if we speak about Twf ?
about seer classe ? (hib 4, mid only 2 with shaman healing as shit even with 50 mending...)
about classes pet ?
about what again.... about hit range from leviathan maybe, 2km it's not enough I think
about "STOP" on scout... haha best thing ever

Tue 22 Dec 2020 8:15 AM by genova

Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:24 AM
Egonek wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:00 PM
I think its all a joke.

Healer--> MEZZ/ROOT
Sham--> ROOT

Druid -->ROOT
Bard--> Mezz/root.

friar ---> nothink
Cleric --> cast STUN!! completle useless... vs resists 4-5 sek and then 1min immune to stun.

True.. but

MID
SM has root
rM has root

ALB
Sorc has root
Theurg has root
Wizzyhas root
Cabbyhas root

HIB
Ani has root

So, Mid has 4 classes that can root
Alb 4
Hib now has 3 (was only animist and druid)
Or maybe i'm wrong?

and if we speak about Twf ?
about seer classe ? (hib 4, mid only 2 with shaman healing as shit even with 50 mending...)
about classes pet ?
about what again.... about hit range from leviathan maybe, 2km it's not enough I think
about "STOP" on scout... haha best thing ever

Can talk too with static tempest..
And spam tangler's animist..

Tue 22 Dec 2020 8:30 AM by easytoremember

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:19 AM
easytoremember wrote:
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:42 AM
compensated by delve increases to make it even less.
where?

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:08 PM
General:
- Spiritmaster darkness lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is to offset the extra damage removal
- Cabalist body lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 200, this is a buff and to offset the extra damage removal
- Bonedancer suppression instant lifedrain spec nuke had its delve raised to end at 136, this is to offset the extra damage removal

do you understand that is spec taps only?
Lifetap and non-lifetap assist trains are not compensated with delve increases

Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:09 AM by Simon73

Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
twf

Mid twf online now 13
Alb Twf online now 7
Hib twf online now 4

Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
about seer classe ? (hib 4, mid only 2 with shaman healing as shit even with 50 mending...)

My warden 42 heals... group heal 119hp WOW!!!!! THAT IS AWSOME!!! Bard has no time to heal, he needs to do much more, if he heals or roots he's doing bad his job.

Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
about classes pet ?

Alb class pets
Sorc
Cabby
Necro
Theurg
Mins

Hib class pet
Ench
Menta
not saying druid because a lvl 4 pet is not a pet...

Mid class pet
SM (block-parry 95% of hits)
BD (unkillable unless you focus an entire group)

What are you talking about

Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:14 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:09 AM
Bard has no time to heal, he needs to do much more, if he heals or roots he's doing bad his job.

Healers have more to do than a Bard and are expected to heal on top of it, Bards are not that complicated.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:24 AM by Eoril

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:09 AM
Bard has no time to heal, he needs to do much more, if he heals or roots he's doing bad his job.

In this game there must be departmental players and pros

Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:38 AM by genova

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:09 AM
Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
]

Mid class pet
SM (block-parry 95% of hits)
BD (unkillable unless you focus an entire group)

What are you talking about

SM block parry 95%?!?! When?
I want this update! And block parry more 5 Range area.. + stun / DD more range too like a pet Fen sorc.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:40 AM by Simon73

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:14 AM
Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:09 AM
Bard has no time to heal, he needs to do much more, if he heals or roots he's doing bad his job.

Healers have more to do than a Bard and are expected to heal on top of it, Bards are not that complicated.

Oh well, yes true..

healer has :

single mezz
ae mezz
single stun
ae stun
instadebuff
root
instamezz single
instamezz ae
isntastun single
instastun ae
heals
DI
BOF
PR

damn, let's cry about healers that have too much to do

PS nobody said that bard is complicated... but a good bard can do a lot.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:41 AM by Shadowkill

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:09 AM
Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
twf

Mid twf online now 13
Alb Twf online now 7
Hib twf online now 4

Best argue Ever lol

Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
Mid class pet
SM (block-parry 95% of hits)
BD (unkillable unless you focus an entire group)

What are you talking about

yeah lol what are you talking about :p

95% block on sm pet ??? did you avoid last nerf ??? :p
did you avoid last BD nerf too ???

DID YOU AVOID 2 years Nerf on mid ago ?

Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:42 AM by Shadowkill

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:40 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:14 AM
Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:09 AM
Bard has no time to heal, he needs to do much more, if he heals or roots he's doing bad his job.

Healers have more to do than a Bard and are expected to heal on top of it, Bards are not that complicated.

Oh well, yes true..

healer has :

single mezz
ae mezz
single stun
ae stun
instadebuff
root
instamezz single
instamezz ae
isntastun single
instastun ae
heals
DI
BOF
PR

damn, let's cry about healers that have too much to do

PS nobody said that bard is complicated... but a good bard can do a lot.

all that on single spec line ??? WOW !!!

just kidding lol

Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:47 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:40 AM
PS nobody said that bard is complicated... but a good bard can do a lot.

Except heal, according to you. You literally just said any Bard casting a heal is a bad Bard. According toy our own post, in your mind the only responsibility a Bard has is to interrupt.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:01 AM by Kaziera

Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:42 AM
Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:40 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:14 AM
Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:09 AM
Bard has no time to heal, he needs to do much more, if he heals or roots he's doing bad his job.

Healers have more to do than a Bard and are expected to heal on top of it, Bards are not that complicated.

Oh well, yes true..

healer has :

single mezz
ae mezz
single stun
ae stun
instadebuff
root
instamezz single
instamezz ae
isntastun single
instastun ae
heals
DI
BOF
PR

damn, let's cry about healers that have too much to do

PS nobody said that bard is complicated... but a good bard can do a lot.

all that on single spec line ??? WOW !!!

just kidding lol

The whataboitism is strong with this one....

Tue 22 Dec 2020 10:45 AM by Enyore

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:40 PM
Enyore wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 10:18 PM
However, I really don't understand why you would give the bard a root spell??? ...... it will do NOTHING to the zerg meta, nothing whatsoever but will have a massive impact on the smallman play and also for the GvG play, does hibs really need more CC ? .... what problem is it you are trying to fix with this change? .. I don't understand the thought process behind this change and it seems rather random. Could you clarify?

First we ran this wheel:

Then we ran this wheel:

Thanks for the reply and clarification.
Glad you would share your thoughts with us on this quite critical change proposal.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:20 AM by genova

Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:41 AM
Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:09 AM
Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
twf

Mid twf online now 13
Alb Twf online now 7
Hib twf online now 4

Best argue Ever lol

Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
Mid class pet
SM (block-parry 95% of hits)
BD (unkillable unless you focus an entire group)

What are you talking about

yeah lol what are you talking about :p

95% block on sm pet ??? did you avoid last nerf ??? :p
did you avoid last BD nerf too ???

DID YOU AVOID 2 years Nerf on mid ago ?

Think he playes on Uthgard...
Last nerf hib > Amnésia bars range to 1875. Was 2300..
Two minutes later, up amnesia bard to 2000...

1 guys saying on LFG chat = need more CC on bard.
One days later = K, bard get root likes live server.

Who is that guy's! Elon Musk?

Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:31 AM by Morann

Shaman needs at least 27 cave for the insta pbae disease.
With 43 aug you get the last heat resist.
Leaving only 18 points for mend. I don’t think dropping the last heat resist for a 6s ns cure would be worth it.
I therefore suggest to give shaman slightly more spec points, when giving home cure ns.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:45 AM by skipari

Morann wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:31 AM
Shaman needs at least 27 cave for the insta pbae disease.
With 43 aug you get the last heat resist.
Leaving only 18 points for mend. I don’t think dropping the last heat resist for a 6s ns cure would be worth it.
I therefore suggest to give shaman slightly more spec points, when giving home cure ns.

while i agree that the sham could need some more specpoints, the idea was probably to have 42/27/20 usable. With the 50% -> 40% debuff reduction a 16% buff still reduces damage by 2% compared to 50%/24% before.

>>> 26-round(((40*1.25)-16)/2)
9
>>> 26-round(((40*1.25)-24)/2)
13
>>> 26-round(((50*1.25)-16)/2)
3
>>> 26-round(((50*1.25)-24)/2)
7

So it is actually somewhat interesting to choose between either 6% less damage without ns heal or just 2% less damage with the option of a 6s ns heal.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:52 AM by Valaraukar

6 secs cure ns is crap. It cannot be used in open field. They will be totally wasted points for a sham to remove higher buffs/resists to get a 6 secs cast that can be interrupted by any gray pet they throw at you. If a sham stops for 6 secs to cast a spell probably his party will be out of range of his reg end / buffs.
So you may use a second sham with high mending to have the 3 secs cure ns.... But no mid party will ever run with 2 shams, one specced mending just to remove a ns that the aug healer can remove as well.
Cure ns in mending spec to shams is just a nonsense

Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:58 AM by MeatBicycle

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 7:08 PM

I main as a sorc, but I still understand that something needs to be done to the alb caster setup. Last night on US primetime there were 5 alb 8 mans out, 1 hib, and 1 mid group. Alb seemed to dominate every fight. I understand player skill has a ton to do with who is going to win an 8 man fight, but with all things being equal, the alb caster setup just holds too much of an advantage. There is a reason we are seeing the discrepancy in the number of 8 man groups that are usually out between realms. I am not sure if the changes above are the right ones, because I worry it may nerf it too much, but if we are being honest with ourselves, something needs to be done.

i agree but i think there is 1 thing we have to adjust now:

since the HP rework a perfectly played castergroup runs into serious power problems at the end of every fight vs a tankgroup, even if the tankgroup plays very suboptimal.

With the new debuff nerf in effect we need to adjust the powerpool to match the %HP bonus of the HP buff to keep power from being a primary 8v8 decider or forcing casters into even more than mcl2 and some aug acuity and etheral bond (most already play those3 to fight the power problems).

This problem is true for all 3 realms whenever they use baseline nuke caster assists.

What about spending RA points into Powerpool? MCL, Raging Power, Serenity? People are suggesting speccing into aom9 instead of dmg ra's on tanks, so casters can as well put points into power pool instead of castspeed/dmg ra's. Everything else is hypocritical.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 12:31 PM by Sek

What about revamping all supposed fixes and changes that oriented the gameplay into a giant ball of zerg shenanigan and ck magnet phenomenom, restore it to 1.65 uth/gene custom in NF along new RA and focus on fixing all environment and coding issues before spoiling what this beautiful game used to be into a WOW freeshard.
Every class has its purpose, its up and down, you can counter pretty much anything with some setup, you don't need to have all tools on a single based char, daoc classic
is pretty much balanced already.
There will always be some people that rather blame a class they do not understand because all they are capable of is whining rather than try hard.
LIKE if you want a reboot.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 1:15 PM by XOX

Amariidi wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:56 PM
I main as a sorc, but I still understand that something needs to be done to the alb caster setup. Last night on US primetime there were 5 alb 8 mans out, 1 hib, and 1 mid group. Alb seemed to dominate every fight. I understand player skill has a ton to do with who is going to win an 8 man fight, but with all things being equal, the alb caster setup just holds too much of an advantage. There is a reason we are seeing the discrepancy in the number of 8 man groups that are usually out between realms. I am not sure if the changes above are the right ones, because I worry it may nerf it too much, but if we are being honest with ourselves, something needs to be done.

the reality is this, it is really boring if you turn 8 as hib at the moment ...

Tue 22 Dec 2020 1:29 PM by Simon73

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:47 AM
Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:40 AM
PS nobody said that bard is complicated... but a good bard can do a lot.

Except heal, according to you. You literally just said any Bard casting a heal is a bad Bard. According toy our own post, in your mind the only responsibility a Bard has is to interrupt.

A good bard interrupting (that means lulla - mezz - snare ) makes a party win.
A bard that focuses on heals should just use a druid, means that enemies casters & healers are totally free

Tue 22 Dec 2020 1:35 PM by Sepplord

Because switching between Jobs or doing two Things at the same time *GASP* is completely Impossible...

But Well, you also claimed that BD pets (which are the second weakest pets in the whole Game) are unkillable...so i hope Most are already aware you don't know what you are talking about

Tue 22 Dec 2020 1:39 PM by Moondragon

I don't have many issues with this except that I think power pools need to be increased for "primary" casters as the fights are inherently going to last longer. It doesn't change the damage output per second, but it does allow the caster more activity for longer fights.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 2:07 PM by Eoril

MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:58 AM
What about spending RA points into Powerpool? MCL, Raging Power, Serenity? People are suggesting speccing into aom9 instead of dmg ra's on tanks, so casters can as well put points into power pool instead of castspeed/dmg ra's. Everything else is hypocritical.

What do you think they are doing ? O_ô

Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:40 PM by egilll

Good changes !

Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:43 PM by Slash

Bard get single target root really ? Bard is already over the top on any single smallman/8man when not being afk as a groupleader... spam insanely OP nerfed/UNnerfed amnesia, win inc, and mez whatever you want without losing speed... yeah you're not losing speed atm since you dont fix it... And many bug tickets about it. Totally stupid.

Nerf body train debuff alb ? so what will alb do to win this now ? I feel another Norad's complain here. (nothing personal, but historically true...) Hib tanker is way too strong, at rr2 you dont have to force to win any 8v8, but i see nothing being written down about it.... a total shame...

However, I'm glad you want to change things, and make server more attractive.
But start with fixing bugs like minstrel speed repop, amnesia cutting/not cutting speed, melee hit range being strange/bugged from a class to another... So we can already enjoy the game how it's actually supposed to be.

Not gonna pretend it will kill server but, dont do that...

Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:24 PM by cmckenzie1452

Good changes, all around.

Thank you, GMs! Excited to try out the adjustments and give feedback in a polite manner AFTER it's tested.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 9:33 PM by Cruella

Could you please after the alb caster nerfs consider buffing the paladin a bit to make them
viable in alb melee grp? Perhaps add stoic? or celerity ? or both hehe

ops:

Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:29 AM by Tyrlaan

The Hib Natty group core or Bard+X smallmans hardly need a buff. That´s like buffing Minstrels, Sorcs or Cabalists with the current game meta. Which I guess we´ll see 1st quarter next year. Though combining the Hib Natties with Alb caster trains or Heroes on Celerity in the proposed "mercenary" event might do already.

Wed 23 Dec 2020 8:45 AM by MeatBicycle

Eoril wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 2:07 PM
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 11:58 AM
What about spending RA points into Powerpool? MCL, Raging Power, Serenity? People are suggesting speccing into aom9 instead of dmg ra's on tanks, so casters can as well put points into power pool instead of castspeed/dmg ra's. Everything else is hypocritical.

What do you think they are doing ? O_ô

I think that many casters play without these skills (does anybody spec Ethereal Bond?). They use potions and the Tasty Chunk and that's it. Otherwise they would have to do without things like Castspeed, Damage or Utility (Purge, Ichor, Moc and so on, depending on class). And if they skill it, then only on low ranks. So there are possibilities.

Fri 25 Dec 2020 12:04 PM by Centenario

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:24 AM
Egonek wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:00 PM
I think its all a joke.

Healer--> MEZZ/ROOT
Sham--> ROOT

Druid -->ROOT
Bard--> Mezz/root.

friar ---> nothink
Cleric --> cast STUN!! completle useless... vs resists 4-5 sek and then 1min immune to stun.

True.. but

MID
SM has root
rM has root

ALB
Sorc has root
Theurg has root
Wizzyhas root
Cabbyhas root

HIB
Ani has root

So, Mid has 4 classes that can root
Alb 4
Hib now has 3 (was only animist and druid)
Or maybe i'm wrong?

Ill give up alb root for hib range stun anyday.
Now just give alb more ranged casted stun. So it’s also more fair in this regard.

Fri 25 Dec 2020 2:48 PM by opossum12

Man I'd give my stun on eld for a root anyday

Mon 28 Dec 2020 4:11 PM by Dreloc

Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 12:04 PM
Simon73 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 7:24 AM
Egonek wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 6:00 PM
I think its all a joke.

Healer--> MEZZ/ROOT
Sham--> ROOT

Druid -->ROOT
Bard--> Mezz/root.

friar ---> nothink
Cleric --> cast STUN!! completle useless... vs resists 4-5 sek and then 1min immune to stun.

True.. but

MID
SM has root
rM has root

ALB
Sorc has root
Theurg has root
Wizzyhas root
Cabbyhas root

HIB
Ani has root

So, Mid has 4 classes that can root
Alb 4
Hib now has 3 (was only animist and druid)
Or maybe i'm wrong?

Ill give up alb root for hib range stun anyday.
Now just give alb more ranged casted stun. So it’s also more fair in this regard.

Moreover you can't just number which classes have root/cc or not. You need to think about if you run sm, 8man or zerg and if the class makes sense in the group.

With bard a core unit, represented in every type of rvr group gets an additional option for cc.

And yeah I already encountered the lvl 47 1min 10 sec root and it's not easy to shrug of (even with det9) let alone rooted pets.

Wed 30 Dec 2020 12:31 AM by Lilou07

This bard root is a joke...

Can you explain why was that needed ?

In standard hib grp you already have 2 druid that can root.
And in small men where there is always a bard having this root is way too OP...

Wed 30 Dec 2020 4:54 AM by Nando

in Smallmans, Hibernia has a huge Advantage now. Also the Hibzerg in the Prime Time is way stronger now and yesterday 170 ppl at Crim. Hib will dominate again, gratz

.

Wed 30 Dec 2020 6:02 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Nando wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Dec 2020 4:54 AM
in Smallmans, Hibernia has a huge Advantage now. Also the Hibzerg in the Prime Time is way stronger now and yesterday 170 ppl at Crim. Hib will dominate again, gratz .

Yeah, adding a root to a single class changed the balance of the entire game.

Do you people listen to yourselves?

Wed 30 Dec 2020 7:20 AM by Simon73

Nando wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Dec 2020 4:54 AM
Also the Hibzerg in the Prime Time is way stronger now and yesterday 170 ppl at Crim. Hib will dominate again, gratz .

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Wed 30 Dec 2020 7:55 AM by easytoremember

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Dec 2020 6:02 AM
Nando wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Dec 2020 4:54 AM
in Smallmans, Hibernia has a huge Advantage now. Also the Hibzerg in the Prime Time is way stronger now and yesterday 170 ppl at Crim. Hib will dominate again, gratz .

Yeah, adding a root to a single class changed the balance of the entire game.

Do you people listen to yourselves?

Never seen Bards work a zerg before?
Now they got root for the mez immunes

Wed 30 Dec 2020 6:41 PM by soremir

Yeah, Hib 2-3 mans are now even more obnoxious now that Bards have root. Really not great.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 11:02 AM by Idra

Thoses changes are totally ridiculous regarding that hib always have been the underdog realm and so have been balanced by multitools classes to be competitive with less people. That's why a small hib can compete a 6/8 member grp of another realm.

Sun 3 Jan 2021 5:09 AM by Tyrlaan

Instead of tossing Shamans a cure NS in a line nobody will spec, they should have given them a full fledged Mend line (see Friar Rej for inspiration). After all the additions to Friar Rej and Warden Reg, Shamans (as a 1.0x class) have a much worse heal line than Friars and Wardens (as 1.5x classes, without the cure NS it was even worse than a Bard´s, also 1.5x). Can give Shamans 1.5x while at it so they can actually get some Mend while maintaining buffs and (PB)AE disease - their spec lines aren´t any more packed than a Bard´s Nurture and Music lines (which now more than rivals the Mind and Pac line, both on 1.0x classes) anyhow.

Sun 3 Jan 2021 5:23 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Jan 2021 5:09 AM
Instead of tossing Shamans a cure NS in a line nobody will spec, they should have given them a full fledged Mend line (see Friar Rej for inspiration). After all the additions to Friar Rej and Warden Reg, Shamans (as a 1.0x class) have a much worse heal line than Friars and Wardens (as 1.5x classes, without the cure NS it was even worse than a Bard´s, also 1.5x). Can give Shamans 1.5x while at it so they can actually get some Mend while maintaining buffs and (PB)AE disease - their spec lines aren´t any more packed than a Bard´s Nurture and Music lines (which now more than rivals the Mind and Pac line, both on 1.0x classes) anyhow.

Thank God you're not a developer...

Sun 3 Jan 2021 9:42 AM by Tyrlaan

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Jan 2021 5:23 AM
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Jan 2021 5:09 AM
Instead of tossing Shamans a cure NS in a line nobody will spec, they should have given them a full fledged Mend line (see Friar Rej for inspiration). After all the additions to Friar Rej and Warden Reg, Shamans (as a 1.0x class) have a much worse heal line than Friars and Wardens (as 1.5x classes, without the cure NS it was even worse than a Bard´s, also 1.5x). Can give Shamans 1.5x while at it so they can actually get some Mend while maintaining buffs and (PB)AE disease - their spec lines aren´t any more packed than a Bard´s Nurture and Music lines (which now more than rivals the Mind and Pac line, both on 1.0x classes) anyhow.

Thank God you're not a developer...

You´re right, I wouldn´t have given Bards a root...

Or is this a contest how much utility can you cram into the Naturalist core?

Back to arguments, so you think it´s okay that Shamans get a worse Mending line than 1.5x classes? Want me to start what Bard/Bard/Druid/Warden bring compared to PacH/AugH/Sham/Skald?

Sun 3 Jan 2021 11:05 AM by Simon73

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Jan 2021 9:42 AM
Back to arguments, so you think it´s okay that Shamans get a worse Mending line than 1.5x classes? Want me to start what Bard/Bard/Druid/Warden bring compared to PacH/AugH/Sham/Skald?

So, let's compare shaman to warden, since I played both on live and here.

Same heals, spec and group heals.
Single spec heal is identical, and even if specced full heals you heal group for moreless 110hp.
Yes, compared to druid healer and cleric is crap but this is how it is since beta 2000, and people played without crying.
Also, one of the most proficient shammies on live pre-TOA was heal-buff specced, and 8man where happy anyway (single red root, single red disease, ae disease etc).

Second, yes, warden has 1.5x points (like bard and friars).
But guess what, he needs to train also sword and parry, besides nature and nurture (same as friar).
I'm sure you thought about that didn't you?
He also had mastery of block, that here has been removed.

Want to talk about skald?
Sure, let's talk about DET, that on live he didn't have (and I have a skald on live AND here that I play roaming in solo).

Sun 3 Jan 2021 12:04 PM by Tyrlaan

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Jan 2021 11:05 AM
So, let's compare shaman to warden, since I played both on live and here.

Same heals, spec and group heals.
Single spec heal is identical, and even if specced full heals you heal group for moreless 110hp.
Yes, compared to druid healer and cleric is crap but this is how it is since beta 2000, and people played without crying.
Also, one of the most proficient shammies on live pre-TOA was heal-buff specced, and 8man where happy anyway (single red root, single red disease, ae disease etc).

In beta 2000 Wardens didn´t even have cure poison and disease nvm NS.
But you´re right, Shaman Mend hasn´t changed since then.

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Jan 2021 11:05 AM
Second, yes, warden has 1.5x points (like bard and friars).
But guess what, he needs to train also sword and parry, besides nature and nurture (same as friar).
I'm sure you thought about that didn't you?
He also had mastery of block, that here has been removed.

12 blades for the lvl 10 self peel. 6 parry. Wardens can take their 2 spell lines so much higher than a Shaman.

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Jan 2021 11:05 AM
Want to talk about skald?
Sure, let's talk about DET, that on live he didn't have (and I have a skald on live AND here that I play roaming in solo).

You conveniently forgot Det on Friars and Wardens. Heal hybrids who with the recent changes are taking one of the prior double primary healer slots. When will we see the AugH or Shaman get Det? Classes who cast mainly from the backfield need Det even less than a melee speed class with close range interrupts.