Assassin need some kind of nerf

So, RA nerf helped them out, recent poison changes,..etc..As a tanks/friar/hybrid I should have to dump a ton of ra's to be a assassin. .They need some nerf..I guarantee their kill/death ratio is super high. I have no idea how to scale them down, but they are just too OP

Fri 27 Nov 2020 7:37 PM by Astaa

They are one of the few classes that are about right.

Fri 27 Nov 2020 11:40 PM by BPICKEREL

Wow Somebody lost to a stealther and it shows 😭. I’m also willing to bet you run from across the map to gank a stealther engaged in a 1v1 with your full group And then /dismiss.

Quit crying. Maybe readjust your play style or roll one in the event and try one solo yourself. Not so easy

Sat 28 Nov 2020 12:37 AM by Taniquetil

U dont solo anyway or even try to 1v1 assassins, so why should you care?

https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/deepcherryred

Sat 28 Nov 2020 12:57 AM by cutbacks

I solo 99.99 percent of the time..Funny that the assassin are the ones saying no nerf is needed...

Sat 28 Nov 2020 1:03 AM by Taniquetil

6% of your kills are solo. and you get 0.1 solo kills for every time you die. Tell me more about how you solo. please..

I aint never seen you respect a 1v1

But honestly from what I've seen you're playing your class wrong, look inwards first before blaming others.

Sat 28 Nov 2020 1:07 AM by cutbacks

Do you even know what toon I'm on? And yes, i dont respect 1v1 fights or any fights WTF is that all about anyhow...Actually only very few that I will respect..but otherwise i see someone i go attack.

Sat 28 Nov 2020 1:25 AM by Taniquetil

Then how are you in any way positioned to talk about balance, if you dont engage in balanced fights.

But, I'm glad you were honest. Good luck to you, Deepcherryred

Sat 28 Nov 2020 4:34 AM by keen

Cmon everyone knows what's the easy class. Can't take away that feeling of being powerful on an op class.

Sat 28 Nov 2020 5:20 AM by Hedien

I see a lot of difference in skill out there when solo fighting infi/ns:
- Low rank who do not have VIPER.
- Unexperienced players who do not apply consistently dots via weapon switch.
- And the high RR, maxed out viper stealthers who switch weapons.

I am going to assume the 3rd case for the below.

Let's say I play a thane, 8L against those 8L-11L stealthers, 5 scenario:
- No RA up on both sides, I lose. Poison damage, debuff s/c, disease is just too hard hitting - especially if they succeed their engage.
- Purge up on both sides. Same as above due to reapply without immune mechanism, while the stealther will be immune slam.
- Purge up only on stealther side. I lose - hard. (often seing high rr stealther taking purge 5)
- All RA up on all side, but no vanish. I can win, but nowhere guaranteed. (I don't want to side strafe exploit to apply snare)
- All RA up on all side, vanish. I probably lose due to low hp and disease followed by re-engage, esp if the stealth used FA.

The reason for the above loss is linked to VIPER. The damage is very high and passive so 100% uptime.
Another reason is immunity mechanism, while it can be purged, only stun is generating immune. Rendering purge power much stronger on infi/ns than on solo visi.
IP is 15 min cooldown.

Given the 40% of stealth population, encountering a 9L+ stealther as solo visi is very frequent.
So I find myself doing the following:
- Wait 15 min, try and go out.
- Encounter solo stealth (assume no add) - scenario #3 or 4 occurs.
- Go back to keep. Wait 15 min. Play another game.
- Start again.

Well, this sucks. I want to go out all the time as solo to enjoy the game continuously. But due to the above mechanisms I have observed, I cannot or I would be feeding and getting frustrated. At the end it is related to relative active vs passive RA power and cooldown. With all my active RA, I am at par with someone mainly using passive. This is not right.

Then there is the "natural" enemy class design. Indeed, the stealther classes have significant advantage against cloth. They are their natural enemies.
My issue is, I don't see obvious stealther natural enemies. I agree with OP that, in the spirit of class design, infil/ns should be at a disadvantage against a tank.

Once again, my tests are based on Thane... which without the style proc implemented is underpowered. (especially if you don't side snare straffe to leverage your st)
But I feel there is some truth in this post and that melee stealthers are a bit too strong now at same skill/RR.

All people saying "haha you are not a true soloer so stfu" are just failing to conceptualize and instead resort to personal attacks. Just to be ignored...

Sat/Faturday.

Sat 28 Nov 2020 5:53 AM by gotwqqd

Hedien wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 5:20 AM
I see a lot of difference in skill out there when solo fighting infi/ns:
- Low rank who do not have VIPER.
- Unexperienced players who do not apply consistently dots via weapon switch.
- And the high RR, maxed out viper stealthers who switch weapons.

I am going to assume the 3rd case for the below.

Let's say I play a thane, 8L against those 8L-11L stealthers, 5 scenario:
- No RA up on both sides, I lose. Poison damage, debuff s/c, disease is just too hard hitting - especially if they succeed their engage.
- Purge up on both sides. Same as above due to reapply without immune mechanism, while the stealther will be immune slam.
- Purge up only on stealther side. I lose - hard. (often seing high rr stealther taking purge 5)
- All RA up on all side, but no vanish. I can win, but nowhere guaranteed. (I don't want to side strafe exploit to apply snare)
- All RA up on all side, vanish. I probably lose due to low hp and disease followed by re-engage, esp if the stealth used FA.

The reason for the above loss is linked to VIPER. The damage is very high and passive so 100% uptime.
Another reason is immunity mechanism, while it can be purged, only stun is generating immune. Rendering purge power much stronger on infi/ns than on solo visi.
IP is 15 min cooldown.

Given the 40% of stealth population, encountering a 9L+ stealther as solo visi is very frequent.
So I find myself doing the following:
- Wait 15 min, try and go out.
- Encounter solo stealth (assume no add) - scenario #3 or 4 occurs.
- Go back to keep. Wait 15 min. Play another game.
- Start again.

Well, this sucks. I want to go out all the time as solo to enjoy the game continuously. But due to the above mechanisms I have observed, I cannot or I would be feeding and getting frustrated. At the end it is related to relative active vs passive RA power and cooldown. With all my active RA, I am at par with someone mainly using passive. This is not right.

Then there is the "natural" enemy class design. Indeed, the stealther classes have significant advantage against cloth. They are their natural enemies.
My issue is, I don't see obvious stealther natural enemies. I agree with OP that, in the spirit of class design, infil/ns should be at a disadvantage against a tank.

Once again, my tests are based on Thane... which without the style proc implemented is underpowered. (especially if you don't side snare straffe to leverage your st)
But I feel there is some truth in this post and that melee stealthers are a bit too strong now at same skill/RR.

All people saying "haha you are not a true soloer so stfu" are just failing to conceptualize and instead resort to personal attacks. Just to be ignored...

Sat/Faturday.

Well constructed argument
I see the fix as
Slight increase in assassin damage....only allow poisons on equipped weapons(3)
Or
Apply penalty for swapping (this also applies to shield swappers which is also an issue)

Sat 28 Nov 2020 8:09 AM by Cadebrennus

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 1:03 AM
6% of your kills are solo. and you get 0.1 solo kills for every time you die. Tell me more about how you solo. please..

I aint never seen you respect a 1v1

But honestly from what I've seen you're playing your class wrong, look inwards first before blaming others.

Solo Visis get run over A LOT, so yes there's a much much higher death rate. That being said, how does one play one's class "wrong"?

Sat 28 Nov 2020 8:17 AM by DarkDavion

Hedien wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 5:20 AM
I see a lot of difference in skill out there when solo fighting infi/ns:
- Low rank who do not have VIPER.
- Unexperienced players who do not apply consistently dots via weapon switch.
- And the high RR, maxed out viper stealthers who switch weapons.

I am going to assume the 3rd case for the below.

Let's say I play a thane, 8L against those 8L-11L stealthers, 5 scenario:
- No RA up on both sides, I lose. Poison damage, debuff s/c, disease is just too hard hitting - especially if they succeed their engage.
- Purge up on both sides. Same as above due to reapply without immune mechanism, while the stealther will be immune slam.
- Purge up only on stealther side. I lose - hard. (often seing high rr stealther taking purge 5)
- All RA up on all side, but no vanish. I can win, but nowhere guaranteed. (I don't want to side strafe exploit to apply snare)
- All RA up on all side, vanish. I probably lose due to low hp and disease followed by re-engage, esp if the stealth used FA.

The reason for the above loss is linked to VIPER. The damage is very high and passive so 100% uptime.
Another reason is immunity mechanism, while it can be purged, only stun is generating immune. Rendering purge power much stronger on infi/ns than on solo visi.
IP is 15 min cooldown.

Given the 40% of stealth population, encountering a 9L+ stealther as solo visi is very frequent.
So I find myself doing the following:
- Wait 15 min, try and go out.
- Encounter solo stealth (assume no add) - scenario #3 or 4 occurs.
- Go back to keep. Wait 15 min. Play another game.
- Start again.

Well, this sucks. I want to go out all the time as solo to enjoy the game continuously. But due to the above mechanisms I have observed, I cannot or I would be feeding and getting frustrated. At the end it is related to relative active vs passive RA power and cooldown. With all my active RA, I am at par with someone mainly using passive. This is not right.

Then there is the "natural" enemy class design. Indeed, the stealther classes have significant advantage against cloth. They are their natural enemies.
My issue is, I don't see obvious stealther natural enemies. I agree with OP that, in the spirit of class design, infil/ns should be at a disadvantage against a tank.

Once again, my tests are based on Thane... which without the style proc implemented is underpowered. (especially if you don't side snare straffe to leverage your st)
But I feel there is some truth in this post and that melee stealthers are a bit too strong now at same skill/RR.

All people saying "haha you are not a true soloer so stfu" are just failing to conceptualize and instead resort to personal attacks. Just to be ignored...

Sat/Faturday.

I mostly play solo and duo and I fully agree with you, is 100% true and I am a Champ. Now champs got nerfed and is even worse but without RA on vs a high rank infi was basically the same.
What I don't get is why assassins have advantage 1vs1 vs ALL classes, they should have advantage vs casters, archers and disadvantage vs tanks. This doesn't mean that they should lose but maybe making viper an active 15min RA should be good. They must use every RA for get advantage vs a tank or something like that.

Sat 28 Nov 2020 9:34 AM by Astaa

I am not a true soloer really, I am too old for that now and I am quite happy to zerg surf on ranger but I do take my RR5 hero out for a spin solo sometimes and it's template and RAs are based on solo play, I tend to just run task hand in then go back to watching TV with the wife, or doing some work, a good solo fight on the way is a bonus. I don't add unless the person is a known adder/zerger and I disengage if someone else adds.

I haven't lost to an equal RR assassin yet on hero (or at least, don't remember) and more often than not win vs assassins higher RR than me, sometimes using IP/moose, sometimes not. There is no shame in using IP, most assassins have very high viper, so they can't complain about RA dumping, it's just using the tools available to win the fight.

The trouble with visi is the amount you get zerged down and I really have zero inclination to take a boat ride to get zerged, not when I can do it in my own back yard, which means I get very few clean 1v1s, there is usually someone adding from somewhere. Had a series of 1v1s last night with an RR10 inf (forget the name) 3 fights, all interrupted and abandoned and even the last fight some random ranger took the kill shot for perhaps double figures of RPs (I got ~1400), very frustrating but there is little point complaining about it.

Edit, except Yukina, I have been getting smacked about properly by them this morning!

Sat 28 Nov 2020 11:21 AM by Taniquetil

Hedien wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 5:20 AM
- And the high RR, maxed out viper stealthers who switch weapons.

I am going to assume the 3rd case for the below.

Let's say I play a thane, 8L against those 8L-11L stealthers, 5 scenario:
- No RA up on both sides, I lose. Poison damage, debuff s/c, disease is just too hard hitting - especially if they succeed their engage.
- Purge up on both sides. Same as above due to reapply without immune mechanism, while the stealther will be immune slam.
- Purge up only on stealther side. I lose - hard. (often seing high rr stealther taking purge 5)
- All RA up on all side, but no vanish. I can win, but nowhere guaranteed. (I don't want to side strafe exploit to apply snare)
- All RA up on all side, vanish. I probably lose due to low hp and disease followed by re-engage, esp if the stealth used FA.

The reason for the above loss is linked to VIPER. The damage is very high and passive so 100% uptime.
Another reason is immunity mechanism, while it can be purged, only stun is generating immune. Rendering purge power much stronger on infi/ns than on solo visi.
IP is 15 min cooldown.

Given the 40% of stealth population, encountering a 9L+ stealther as solo visi is very frequent.
So I find myself doing the following:
- Wait 15 min, try and go out.
- Encounter solo stealth (assume no add) - scenario #3 or 4 occurs.
- Go back to keep. Wait 15 min. Play another game.
- Start again..

Yo. Nice argument, can i ask your RA spec? Because honestly, what I see most people doing is speccing so heavily in active RA’s that beyond that they may as well be a RR2, so yeah, it creates an annoying perpetual cycle of running back to keeps and waiting on timers which is awful. Seen you around, never had the chance to 1v1 you, would be interested if you are

This perpetual cycle is only made worse because You do see a lot of ‘im going to wait for all my timers’ as a result I have no shame in dumping vanish when I see that, and then move on. This isn’t fun for the tank or the stealther. It leaves the tank pretty much naked for the next stealther...and the stealther just goes and hits someone else. Pointless. Timers like that are designed for use separately so you can take on multiple fights in sequence, lol good luck as a solo visi on this server Without getting steamrolled by full group, but thats another topic.

I see myself as a good stealther, and honestly let me tell you there are plenty of solo tanks who are able to beat even the strongest ones with ease. Unodostrescatorce took on 3 the other day, including me, because he’s specced right and knows how to counter sneaks. Whilst I find him annoying that when he is grouped he uses SL pots to find solos There is actually no way that I will ever hit him solo because I know that there is no chance that I will win... he’s that good. Am I asking for him to be nerfed? No, he is a strong well played tank that doesn’t need active RA’s to beat a sneak, and I’m ok with that. The balance and ability to do so is readily available for you, you just have to find it by playing your classes differently.

Ledri and Fayte used to be similar as thane, they played well, knew what to do, and were able to play against multiple sneaks at once. Active RA’s were used as a choice not just used as buttons to jump on every fight immediately on Inc...

I’m not trying to be a dick about it here I just think there’s a lot that players can do to improve how they play their own classes before asking for nerfs. 95 out of 100 static Tempest that are dumped on me I’m simply able to walk out of....thats bad play. 95% of people who actively wait for timers in keeps often immediately run to slam an assassin....who you know has Purge 5.... and then act surprised when they Purge.

This is very honest and invaluable advice, and the toughest opponents play with this in mind. If you choose to ignore it thats up to you. Slam.....is not your friend. Think outside the box, adapt to playing your class a bit differently, and you’ll see. Neither is numb...Make us make tough decisions don’t give us a very easy decision to Purge slam and dont think we’re dumb enough to fall for numb.

Look inwards first.

Good luck.

Sat 28 Nov 2020 11:27 AM by Astaa

Numb works more than you would think, I got someone with it last night (I actually fat fingered it but that's besides the point!) I try to use the spear parry reactive which has a stun then wait for immunity timer before slamming but getting enemy purge out the way early can be a benefit and unless stunned there is no point blowing purge vs a decent assassin either because you just get re-poisoned anyway, it all depends on the class you are fighting and the situation.

I'm actually thinking about dropping slam altogether and dumping the points into 50 parry, slam is a lot of points to spend on a slightly longer stun. I'm rusty AF though so struggling to get positionals off after a reactive stun atm.

Sat 28 Nov 2020 1:42 PM by Taniquetil

Astaa wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 11:27 AM
Numb works more than you would think, I got someone with it last night (I actually fat fingered it but that's besides the point!) I try to use the spear parry reactive which has a stun then wait for immunity timer before slamming but getting enemy purge out the way early can be a benefit and unless stunned there is no point blowing purge vs a decent assassin either because you just get re-poisoned anyway, it all depends on the class you are fighting and the situation.

I'm actually thinking about dropping slam altogether and dumping the points into 50 parry, slam is a lot of points to spend on a slightly longer stun. I'm rusty AF though so struggling to get positionals off after a reactive stun atm.

Not saying numb doesnt work, but it's too cute of a style most of the time, other styles put more pressure on a decision to purge or not, that causes a difficult choice. Numb and slam both have a very straightforward answer.

But also I feel like you're not really complaining about sin strength either? You said you do well, whilst I dont know your toon you also seemed to comment enjoying our fights, so, im sure i probably did too, fought a few strong lowbie heros lately

<3

Anyway:

Proof tanks of all flavours can beat a wide variety of assasins, often multiple at once:
Valewalker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WRBEPsSC-E
- 1st fight vs 3 stealthers
- Fightts a RR11 SB without a single active style
-16:50 vs a inf, easy clap.
-17min vs a r8 inf, purge only both sides

Thane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DzCRgcwMRo
-2 mins in beats a NS grouped with a bard...

Thane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUwdQBmCGvw
- First two fights, wins 2v1 both times vs good assassins..
- The fight at 7min16 sec is insane play, many thanes would've dumped ST on the NS immediately.

Reaver RR2-4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdO7lzjY0jg
- flexing at RR2-4... Smashes people

Jackle - Merc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWBhDIcLfig
- Beats multiple sneaks

Sat 28 Nov 2020 2:02 PM by DarkDavion

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 1:42 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 11:27 AM
Numb works more than you would think, I got someone with it last night (I actually fat fingered it but that's besides the point!) I try to use the spear parry reactive which has a stun then wait for immunity timer before slamming but getting enemy purge out the way early can be a benefit and unless stunned there is no point blowing purge vs a decent assassin either because you just get re-poisoned anyway, it all depends on the class you are fighting and the situation.

I'm actually thinking about dropping slam altogether and dumping the points into 50 parry, slam is a lot of points to spend on a slightly longer stun. I'm rusty AF though so struggling to get positionals off after a reactive stun atm.

Not saying numb doesnt work, but it's too cute of a style most of the time, other styles put more pressure on a decision to purge or not, that causes a difficult choice. Numb and slam both have a very straightforward answer.

But also I feel like you're not really complaining about sin strength either? You said you do well, whilst I dont know your toon you also seemed to comment enjoying our fights, so, im sure i probably did too, fought a few strong lowbie heros lately <3

Anyway:

Proof tanks of all flavours can beat a wide variety of assasins, often multiple at once:
Valewalker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WRBEPsSC-E
- 1st fight vs 3 stealthers
- Fightts a RR11 SB without a single active style
-16:50 vs a inf, easy clap.
-17min vs a r8 inf, purge only both sides

Thane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DzCRgcwMRo
-2 mins in beats a NS grouped with a bard...

Thane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUwdQBmCGvw
- First two fights, wins 2v1 both times vs good assassins..
- The fight at 7min16 sec is insane play, many thanes would've dumped ST on the NS immediately.

Reaver RR2-4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdO7lzjY0jg
- flexing at RR2-4... Smashes people

Jackle - Merc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWBhDIcLfig
- Beats multiple sneaks

Hey Tani I respect you, but I must show you a video where Therabbin let me with 15% just with pa+stun and I haven't RA (I mean when the stun ended I was left with 15% hp) ... I can't see how to win if me and him are without RA's... And I think I can use my class in a decent way, maybe the 50/50 spec doesn't help vs assassins but.. Come on from 100% to 15..

Sat 28 Nov 2020 2:11 PM by Taniquetil

DarkDavion wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 2:02 PM
Hey Tani I respect you, but I must show you a video where Therabbin let me with 15% just with pa+stun and I haven't RA (I mean when the stun ended I was left with 15% hp) ... I can't see how to win if me and him are without RA's... And I think I can use my class in a decent way, maybe the 50/50 spec doesn't help vs assassins but.. Come on from 100% to 15..

Tnx. I believe, you, but if you Get PA/CD'd without Purge, i feel like that's one of those fights you should probably be losing, the aim should be to not be gettting perfed first of all.

- dont get PA'd
- Numb before you get CD'd
- hope for a block/parry on it just making sure you face the attack quick enough.

If you're both without RA's tthen yeah a numb is enough tto stp him stunning you and then you can wait to slam after the fact.

Sat 28 Nov 2020 2:14 PM by DarkDavion

Tani if u remember me we had nice fights in the srtygya pvp event and assassins were in a good place. Now after PA buff, bleed buff they are over the top.. If they were good before now they are just too good.. I rember that before these buff and champ nerfs maybe vs melee I was a bit over the top (just vs melee, bcs vs caster champs can easily destroyed) but now.. Come on... Is like saying minstrel is fine now after 7 nerfs.. A well played mincer can win vs all classes, has no counter.. But they said can't balance it in 1vs1 without breaking group mechanics.. This isn't true for assassins

Sat 28 Nov 2020 2:17 PM by DarkDavion

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 2:11 PM
DarkDavion wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 2:02 PM
Hey Tani I respect you, but I must show you a video where Therabbin let me with 15% just with pa+stun and I haven't RA (I mean when the stun ended I was left with 15% hp) ... I can't see how to win if me and him are without RA's... And I think I can use my class in a decent way, maybe the 50/50 spec doesn't help vs assassins but.. Come on from 100% to 15..

Tnx. I believe, you, but if you Get PA/CD'd without Purge, i feel like that's one of those fights you should probably be losing, the aim should be to not be gettting perfed first of all.

- dont get PA'd
- Numb before you get CD'd
- hope for a block/parry on it just making sure you face the attack quick enough.

If you're both without RA's tthen yeah a numb is enough tto stp him stunning you and then you can wait to slam after the fact.

U right bud, but the assassins choose when start the fight so very often they can start with PA, specially when u are in tight places like bridges etc..

Sat 28 Nov 2020 2:47 PM by Tashkent

It's quite easy to anticipate an attack since there aren't many spots where assassins lurk. Also there will always be the odd situation where everything's going against you and you'll be left at 15% health. This cannot be the ground for balancing. There's the habit that dumping on others is attributed to one's own skill and getting smashed is a balancing issue.

As a hunter I of course have difficulties in melee such that I sometimes loose against brehon assassins. But then I can also win against baruns without IP.

Sat 28 Nov 2020 3:15 PM by Cadebrennus

DarkDavion wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 8:17 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 5:20 AM
I see a lot of difference in skill out there when solo fighting infi/ns:
- Low rank who do not have VIPER.
- Unexperienced players who do not apply consistently dots via weapon switch.
- And the high RR, maxed out viper stealthers who switch weapons.

I am going to assume the 3rd case for the below.

Let's say I play a thane, 8L against those 8L-11L stealthers, 5 scenario:
- No RA up on both sides, I lose. Poison damage, debuff s/c, disease is just too hard hitting - especially if they succeed their engage.
- Purge up on both sides. Same as above due to reapply without immune mechanism, while the stealther will be immune slam.
- Purge up only on stealther side. I lose - hard. (often seing high rr stealther taking purge 5)
- All RA up on all side, but no vanish. I can win, but nowhere guaranteed. (I don't want to side strafe exploit to apply snare)
- All RA up on all side, vanish. I probably lose due to low hp and disease followed by re-engage, esp if the stealth used FA.

The reason for the above loss is linked to VIPER. The damage is very high and passive so 100% uptime.
Another reason is immunity mechanism, while it can be purged, only stun is generating immune. Rendering purge power much stronger on infi/ns than on solo visi.
IP is 15 min cooldown.

Given the 40% of stealth population, encountering a 9L+ stealther as solo visi is very frequent.
So I find myself doing the following:
- Wait 15 min, try and go out.
- Encounter solo stealth (assume no add) - scenario #3 or 4 occurs.
- Go back to keep. Wait 15 min. Play another game.
- Start again.

Well, this sucks. I want to go out all the time as solo to enjoy the game continuously. But due to the above mechanisms I have observed, I cannot or I would be feeding and getting frustrated. At the end it is related to relative active vs passive RA power and cooldown. With all my active RA, I am at par with someone mainly using passive. This is not right.

Then there is the "natural" enemy class design. Indeed, the stealther classes have significant advantage against cloth. They are their natural enemies.
My issue is, I don't see obvious stealther natural enemies. I agree with OP that, in the spirit of class design, infil/ns should be at a disadvantage against a tank.

Once again, my tests are based on Thane... which without the style proc implemented is underpowered. (especially if you don't side snare straffe to leverage your st)
But I feel there is some truth in this post and that melee stealthers are a bit too strong now at same skill/RR.

All people saying "haha you are not a true soloer so stfu" are just failing to conceptualize and instead resort to personal attacks. Just to be ignored...

Sat/Faturday.
I mostly play solo and duo and I fully agree with you, is 100% true and I am a Champ. Now champs got nerfed and is even worse but without RA on vs a high rank infi was basically the same.
What I don't get is why assassins have advantage 1vs1 vs ALL classes, they should have advantage vs casters, archers and disadvantage vs tanks. This doesn't mean that they should lose but maybe making viper an active 15min RA should be good. They must use every RA for get advantage vs a tank or something like that.

.
.

Sat 28 Nov 2020 5:18 PM by boridi

Champs complaining that assassins are too powerful 1v1?

Sat 28 Nov 2020 5:50 PM by Astaa

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 1:42 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 11:27 AM
Numb works more than you would think, I got someone with it last night (I actually fat fingered it but that's besides the point!) I try to use the spear parry reactive which has a stun then wait for immunity timer before slamming but getting enemy purge out the way early can be a benefit and unless stunned there is no point blowing purge vs a decent assassin either because you just get re-poisoned anyway, it all depends on the class you are fighting and the situation.

I'm actually thinking about dropping slam altogether and dumping the points into 50 parry, slam is a lot of points to spend on a slightly longer stun. I'm rusty AF though so struggling to get positionals off after a reactive stun atm.

Not saying numb doesnt work, but it's too cute of a style most of the time, other styles put more pressure on a decision to purge or not, that causes a difficult choice. Numb and slam both have a very straightforward answer.

But also I feel like you're not really complaining about sin strength either? You said you do well, whilst I dont know your toon you also seemed to comment enjoying our fights, so, im sure i probably did too, fought a few strong lowbie heros lately <3

Anyway:

Proof tanks of all flavours can beat a wide variety of assasins, often multiple at once:
Valewalker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WRBEPsSC-E
- 1st fight vs 3 stealthers
- Fightts a RR11 SB without a single active style
-16:50 vs a inf, easy clap.
-17min vs a r8 inf, purge only both sides

Thane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DzCRgcwMRo
-2 mins in beats a NS grouped with a bard...

Thane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUwdQBmCGvw
- First two fights, wins 2v1 both times vs good assassins..
- The fight at 7min16 sec is insane play, many thanes would've dumped ST on the NS immediately.

Reaver RR2-4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdO7lzjY0jg
- flexing at RR2-4... Smashes people

Jackle - Merc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWBhDIcLfig
- Beats multiple sneaks

It's Davote, nah, my only real issue with assassins is the disease duration, there is no reason for it to be so long.

Sat 28 Nov 2020 7:06 PM by Taniquetil

Astaa wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 5:50 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Nov 2020 1:42 PM
But also I feel like you're not really complaining about sin strength either? You said you do well

It's Davote, nah, my only real issue with assassins is the disease duration, there is no reason for it to be so long.

Agree, interesting at RR5 as a hero you're doing fine vs Assassins

Sat 28 Nov 2020 8:54 PM by Astaa

Well, the only ones I have real trouble with are those much higher RR than me, so it stands to reason that I ought to struggle but if a heavy tank is constantly losing vs ~equal RR assassins then they should have a rethink

That will change as I gain RR ofc, though that will probably be a long and painful road as a visi, not sure I have the energy for it really

With the changes going in on Monday I might just zerg surf a couple more levels. A solo visi needs to be able to take on 2 or 3 enemies and come away with something, I just can't do that atm.

Sun 29 Nov 2020 12:31 AM by Hedien

I looked at the Thane videos, just to see if I could learn how to play better.

What I saw was:
- Much lower ranks than nowadays. Meaning very different purging behavior and potential viper power, and it shows in both video, enemies just don't purge.
- Never casting Thane on stunned solo targets, which is not the way to go if you want to maximize your dps output: Slam -> Cast x3 (pref under debuff) -> finish with 2hander style. These Thane were glorified warrior players that weren't leveraging the debuff energy proc to its potential...
- Enemies losing 40-50% hp in one single 2hander hit. I mean... 30% on a revenge 2h reactive style, sure. 50% like I saw in Fayte/Ledri video... no.
- Ledri video, the first few fights had so much crossing.. it was simply not the playstyle I am looking for.

My perception based on the above is, these videos are far from representative.

Sat/Faturday.

Sun 29 Nov 2020 1:37 PM by Taniquetil

Hedien wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Nov 2020 12:31 AM
I looked at the Thane videos, just to see if I could learn how to play better.

What I saw was:
- Much lower ranks than nowadays. Meaning very different purging behavior and potential viper power, and it shows in both video, enemies just don't purge.
- Never casting Thane on stunned solo targets, which is not the way to go if you want to maximize your dps output: Slam -> Cast x3 (pref under debuff) -> finish with 2hander style. These Thane were glorified warrior players that weren't leveraging the debuff energy proc to its potential...
- Enemies losing 40-50% hp in one single 2hander hit. I mean... 30% on a revenge 2h reactive style, sure. 50% like I saw in Fayte/Ledri video... no.
- Ledri video, the first few fights had so much crossing.. it was simply not the playstyle I am looking for.

My perception based on the above is, these videos are far from representative.

Sat/Faturday.

Can probably look for some other clips, these were just them showing the ability to take on multiple sneaks at once or interesting video clips, and yeah you’re right the %’s are maybe off as theyre before the hp changes, but given tanks benefitted more than sins for that its more of a fight extender than a balance changer.

In order to get to these clips, trust me, they needed to be able to dispose of sins 1v1 with relative ease. They both always hit me hard AF and were able to go toe to toe. Guarantee if they came back, although Fayte cant 😖, they’d perform just as well, theyre leaning on different levers. A good NS wont let you leverage that energy debuff 1v1. Once youre in that fight, you’re in it.

Re High RR - Yeah the landscapes changed and there are more high RR of everything now, it’s an uphill battle for everyone, doesnt mean sins need a nerf for being higher RR. Bit of a moot point.

Sun 29 Nov 2020 4:25 PM by Noashakra

I kill rr11 with my rr5 warrior 1vs1.
And champion/thane have a hard time? We don't play the same game :p

Sun 29 Nov 2020 5:27 PM by boridi

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Nov 2020 4:25 PM
I kill rr11 with my rr5 warrior 1vs1.
And champion/thane have a hard time? We don't play the same game :p

Yep. Lost a close fight to Wutan on my 3L8 solo-specced zerker this morning after he landed PA.

Mon 30 Nov 2020 1:08 AM by Hedien

I don't like namecalling.

Referring to Wutan high RR is very different from high RR and high skill because he does not reapply his dots.
For example, to kill Brainstorm / TheRabbin / Yukina / Noa easily is not going to happen consistently. (with one-off advantageous RNG maybe)

Anyway, I have laid down my arguments based on months of observations. If you wish to say "I did that one duel vs 15L and won on my 1L3 char so there is no issue" please knock yourself out.

Sat/Faturday.

Mon 30 Nov 2020 7:49 AM by Noashakra

My observation is that a lot of players don't play good and/or have the wrong spec to solo.
Again, if a melee ranger can kill assassins, with no parry, no block, no direct stun, less WS, less HP, worst damage table, any tank should be able to do it.

Mon 30 Nov 2020 8:12 AM by Hedien

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 7:49 AM
My observation is that a lot of players don't play good and/or have the wrong spec to solo.
Again, if a melee ranger can kill assassins, with no parry, no block, no direct stun, less WS, less HP, worst damage table, any tank should be able to do it.

Sorry if it was confusing, but I was referring to assassin / ns / infi mainly. Not melee scout/ranger/hunt.
90% of the time, the 1st category kills the 2nd at equal skill/rr.

As a tank, I have 0 problem against the 2nd category.

Sat/Faturday.

Mon 30 Nov 2020 3:40 PM by keen

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Nov 2020 4:25 PM
I kill rr11 with my rr5 warrior 1vs1.
And champion/thane have a hard time? We don't play the same game :p

If you camp the CK for 15mins, sure call it fun.

Mon 30 Nov 2020 4:20 PM by inoeth

what i often see here in the forums is thanes that spec 50/42/39/6 which is a bad spec for soloing..... try 34 or even 29 weapon and 20+ parry
i do not often run solo with my thane since visible soloing is a pain in the ass but when i do i regularly smash assassins.
here is how to do:

get d/q debuff hammer
use ASR style
spec moparry / moblock
win

Mon 30 Nov 2020 7:52 PM by Noashakra

keen wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 3:40 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Nov 2020 4:25 PM
I kill rr11 with my rr5 warrior 1vs1.
And champion/thane have a hard time? We don't play the same game :p
If you camp the CK for 15mins, sure call it fun.

Drunkstain killed me without ip and purge
Yarna has a 100% wingate against me since he is 6L

Mon 30 Nov 2020 7:55 PM by gotwqqd

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 7:52 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 3:40 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Nov 2020 4:25 PM
I kill rr11 with my rr5 warrior 1vs1.
And champion/thane have a hard time? We don't play the same game :p
If you camp the CK for 15mins, sure call it fun.

Drunkstain killed me without ip and purge
Yarna has a 100% wingate against me since he is 6L

You pull out these anomalies of enemies that kill you as some sort of proof.

It doesn’t mean the assassin classes are not overpowered in the whole.

Mon 30 Nov 2020 8:24 PM by boridi

Hedien wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 1:08 AM
I don't like namecalling.

Referring to Wutan high RR is very different from high RR and high skill because he does not reapply his dots.
For example, to kill Brainstorm / TheRabbin / Yukina / Noa easily is not going to happen consistently. (with one-off advantageous RNG maybe)

Anyway, I have laid down my arguments based on months of observations. If you wish to say "I did that one duel vs 15L and won on my 1L3 char so there is no issue" please knock yourself out.

Sat/Faturday.

Well, I'm not very skilled on my zerker so we can call it even

Tue 1 Dec 2020 2:10 AM by Hedien

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 4:20 PM
what i often see here in the forums is thanes that spec 50/42/39/6 which is a bad spec for soloing..... try 34 or even 29 weapon and 20+ parry
i do not often run solo with my thane since visible soloing is a pain in the ass but when i do i regularly smash assassins.
here is how to do:

get d/q debuff hammer
use ASR style
spec moparry / moblock
win

get d/q debuff hammer - Check.
use ASR style - Check.
spec moparry / moblock - Check.
win - Not without active, so not check.

Spec wise :
Looking at the charplan, you want hammer to conquer back style for st optimization. (I don't want exploit side snare human tornado gameplay)
Dropping below 39 means losing the lambast really good after parry style, to be replaced by a follow-up chain starting with a 2sec stun chain messing up stun timers, because you want to use numb/slam and in-between block/parry reactives. Increasing your parry without parry reactive is pointless to me.
You would also increase fight duration, meaning more poison ticks without avoidance. Lower weapon spec meaning less ws and more avoidance/reactive on enemy side.
I don't see this as an obvious win to be honest.

Sat/Faturday

Tue 1 Dec 2020 2:11 AM by Hedien

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 7:55 PM
You pull out these anomalies of enemies that kill you as some sort of proof.

It doesn’t mean the assassin classes are not overpowered in the whole.

Exactly my point.

Tue 1 Dec 2020 7:44 AM by inoeth

Hedien wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 2:10 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 4:20 PM
what i often see here in the forums is thanes that spec 50/42/39/6 which is a bad spec for soloing..... try 34 or even 29 weapon and 20+ parry
i do not often run solo with my thane since visible soloing is a pain in the ass but when i do i regularly smash assassins.
here is how to do:

get d/q debuff hammer
use ASR style
spec moparry / moblock
win

get d/q debuff hammer - Check.
use ASR style - Check.
spec moparry / moblock - Check.
win - Not without active, so not check.

Spec wise :
Looking at the charplan, you want hammer to conquer back style for st optimization. (I don't want exploit side snare human tornado gameplay)
Dropping below 39 means losing the lambast really good after parry style, to be replaced by a follow-up chain starting with a 2sec stun chain messing up stun timers, because you want to use numb/slam and in-between block/parry reactives. Increasing your parry without parry reactive is pointless to me.
You would also increase fight duration, meaning more poison ticks without avoidance. Lower weapon spec meaning less ws and more avoidance/reactive on enemy side.
I don't see this as an obvious win to be honest.

Sat/Faturday

you dont need lambast

just provoke them down and dont forget to switch to crafted 3.1 hammer with enegery dd proc after d/q and energy debuff applied

regarding mob/moparry: you want to have 55%+/50%

Tue 1 Dec 2020 8:12 AM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 7:55 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 7:52 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 3:40 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Nov 2020 4:25 PM
I kill rr11 with my rr5 warrior 1vs1.
And champion/thane have a hard time? We don't play the same game :p
If you camp the CK for 15mins, sure call it fun.

Drunkstain killed me without ip and purge
Yarna has a 100% wingate against me since he is 6L
You pull out these anomalies of enemies that kill you as some sort of proof.

It doesn’t mean the assassin classes are not overpowered in the whole.

It means those people are either playing better and/or using better RA/Spec

Tue 1 Dec 2020 9:23 AM by Taniquetil

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 8:12 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 7:55 PM
You pull out these anomalies of enemies that kill you as some sort of proof.

It doesn’t mean the assassin classes are not overpowered in the whole.

It means those people are either playing better and/or using better RA/Spec

Sorry but Gotwood, there are some in this thread posting a short list of assassin names who are RR11ish that they say are impossible to beat, yet no one calls them anomalies.

But when a short list of visi players (who are lower RR) who are capable of beating those very assassins on that short list you call the tanks anomalies? Ok well lets just call the short list of well played assasins anomalies as well and move on.

FWIW Noa is right. There are some tanks (variety of classes) that play very well and are close to impossible to beat, which is fun. As a result I think it's then fair to say that balance is fine, and the defining gap is based on skillcap.

Good luck.

Tue 1 Dec 2020 1:33 PM by goten9033

So originally the huge problem and complaint every day was archers archers archers. Well they did get a nerf, so now we’re onto assassins ?

Tue 1 Dec 2020 3:16 PM by DarkDavion

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 9:23 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 8:12 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Nov 2020 7:55 PM
You pull out these anomalies of enemies that kill you as some sort of proof.

It doesn’t mean the assassin classes are not overpowered in the whole.

It means those people are either playing better and/or using better RA/Spec

Sorry but Gotwood, there are some in this thread posting a short list of assassin names who are RR11ish that they say are impossible to beat, yet no one calls them anomalies.

But when a short list of visi players (who are lower RR) who are capable of beating those very assassins on that short list you call the tanks anomalies? Ok well lets just call the short list of well played assasins anomalies as well and move on.

FWIW Noa is right. There are some tanks (variety of classes) that play very well and are close to impossible to beat, which is fun. As a result I think it's then fair to say that balance is fine, and the defining gap is based on skillcap.

Good luck.

There is a misunderstanding I think XD, before the PA buff I felt the assassins were in a well place, now after the PA buff, bleeding buff (and my Champ nerf) I feel the balance is slightly in favor of the assassins and specially for the infis. This doesn't mean I can't win vs well played assassins, I have beated all the listed top names. I'm just saying I feel after this changes assassins look a little overtuned. I mean if they were good before the PA buff and bleed buff can you agree something is different now right?

Tue 1 Dec 2020 4:38 PM by Sepplord

goten9033 wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 1:33 PM
So originally the huge problem and complaint every day was archers archers archers. Well they did get a nerf, so now we’re onto assassins ?

there have always been complaints about assassins, and it's a completely different demographic than what caused the archers nerfs.
There is some overlap though

Tue 1 Dec 2020 7:10 PM by PoisonClovers

Envenom DoT +viper 5
Epic Raid Wep DoT
Craftable player DoT
Bleed DoT

all stack.. Even heard there is a 4th Weapon Proc but I've never seen it or found it. That's a lot of DPS for doing nothing.

outside of this, don't really see much if a problem.

Tue 1 Dec 2020 7:25 PM by kpax

next step to become a dead server......if gms keep listening all these ppl.

Tue 1 Dec 2020 10:18 PM by Noashakra

PoisonClovers wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 7:10 PM
Envenom DoT +viper 5
Epic Raid Wep DoT
Craftable player DoT
Bleed DoT

all stack.. Even heard there is a 4th Weapon Proc but I've never seen it or found it. That's a lot of DPS for doing nothing.

outside of this, don't really see much if a problem.

Only the SB can triple dot, the other realms don't use the weapon because the speed is terrible.
Btw, you can also dot and bleed on most classes, the merc can reach the bleed cap in two hits, and also has access to double dot if they want to, so what was your point about dot proc and bleed?
There are no 4th weapon that can dot btw.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 5:14 AM by gotwqqd

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 10:18 PM
PoisonClovers wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 7:10 PM
Envenom DoT +viper 5
Epic Raid Wep DoT
Craftable player DoT
Bleed DoT

all stack.. Even heard there is a 4th Weapon Proc but I've never seen it or found it. That's a lot of DPS for doing nothing.

outside of this, don't really see much if a problem.
Only the SB can triple dot, the other realms don't use the weapon because the speed is terrible.
Btw, you can also dot and bleed on most classes, the merc can reach the bleed cap in two hits, and also has access to double dot if they want to, so what was your point about dot proc and bleed?
There are no 4th weapon that can dot btw.

Context is your friend

Wed 2 Dec 2020 7:45 AM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 5:14 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 10:18 PM
PoisonClovers wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 7:10 PM
Envenom DoT +viper 5
Epic Raid Wep DoT
Craftable player DoT
Bleed DoT

all stack.. Even heard there is a 4th Weapon Proc but I've never seen it or found it. That's a lot of DPS for doing nothing.

outside of this, don't really see much if a problem.
Only the SB can triple dot, the other realms don't use the weapon because the speed is terrible.
Btw, you can also dot and bleed on most classes, the merc can reach the bleed cap in two hits, and also has access to double dot if they want to, so what was your point about dot proc and bleed?
There are no 4th weapon that can dot btw.
Context is your friend

Don't worry, I understood the context dude.
The unique thing about assassins here is poison dot and viper.
Thinking more than 2secs is your friend too.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 8:30 AM by Glasny

Agree with OP : Sins should be tuned down for balance sake.
Maybe nerf viper and some poison immune timers on purge (for desease and debuffs).

Pretty please

Wed 2 Dec 2020 9:31 AM by WildWilbur

Glasny wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 8:30 AM
Agree with OP : Sins should be tuned down for balance sake.
Maybe nerf viper and some poison immune timers on purge (for desease and debuffs).

Pretty please

Yes, pretty please! Because my understanding of balance is that I don't lose to an assassin! Because I don't like them! Because they are OP! Because they have posion and stuff! And I hate them! Pretty please!

Wed 2 Dec 2020 10:10 AM by Blitze

I think the high stealther population is due to two things:

1. Stealthers are relatively powerful here. Not over the top, but better than most patch levels (I remember).
AND
2. RvR is a horrid and deflating experience trying to solo as a visible. This is entirely due to the fact every group chases you down to claim their free RPs.

I believe the second point (how awful visi-soloing is made by grps) is why we are seeing so many stealths.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 10:13 AM by Hedien

Blitze wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 10:10 AM
I think the high stealther population is due to two things:

1. Stealthers are relatively powerful here. Not over the top, but better than most patch levels (I remember).
AND
2. RvR is a horrid and deflating experience trying to solo as a visible. This is entirely due to the fact every group chases you down to claim their free RPs.

I believe the second point (how awful visi-soloing is made by grps) is why we are seeing so many stealths.

I agree with both statements. This post is mainly addressing the 1st one.

Sat/Faturday.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 10:19 AM by Noashakra

Blitze wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 10:10 AM
I think the high stealther population is due to two things:

1. Stealthers are relatively powerful here. Not over the top, but better than most patch levels (I remember).
AND
2. RvR is a horrid and deflating experience trying to solo as a visible. This is entirely due to the fact every group chases you down to claim their free RPs.

I believe the second point (how awful visi-soloing is made by grps) is why we are seeing so many stealths.

I agree with everything here, but I don't think they are better than other patch level (dual nerf vs shield and evade, in addition to no dot reset with each swing). Assassins are strong, but not OP by any means.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 10:53 AM by gotwqqd

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 10:19 AM
Blitze wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 10:10 AM
I think the high stealther population is due to two things:

1. Stealthers are relatively powerful here. Not over the top, but better than most patch levels (I remember).
AND
2. RvR is a horrid and deflating experience trying to solo as a visible. This is entirely due to the fact every group chases you down to claim their free RPs.

I believe the second point (how awful visi-soloing is made by grps) is why we are seeing so many stealths.

I agree with everything here, but I don't think they are better than other patch level (dual nerf vs shield and evade, in addition to no dot reset with each swing). Assassins are strong, but not OP by any means.

Important to keep forcing your narrative .... where have I seen this lately ?

Wed 2 Dec 2020 11:01 AM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 10:53 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 10:19 AM
Blitze wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 10:10 AM
I think the high stealther population is due to two things:

1. Stealthers are relatively powerful here. Not over the top, but better than most patch levels (I remember).
AND
2. RvR is a horrid and deflating experience trying to solo as a visible. This is entirely due to the fact every group chases you down to claim their free RPs.

I believe the second point (how awful visi-soloing is made by grps) is why we are seeing so many stealths.

I agree with everything here, but I don't think they are better than other patch level (dual nerf vs shield and evade, in addition to no dot reset with each swing). Assassins are strong, but not OP by any means.
Important to keep forcing your narrative .... where have I seen this lately ?

Git gut and stop blaming assassin for your lack of skills.
It's becoming ridiculous.
I played solo melee ranger until the 9L9, and even if assassins were stronger, I never felt they were OP. I could kill most of them with only purge.
But keep blaming them instead of self reflecting.

Give us your solo toon (and I doubt you have one lol), and then maybe it'll become clear to everybody why you make ridiculous posts after ridiculous posts about asssassins.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 11:11 AM by Hedien

Guys, don't make your exchange lock the post.

Assassin are strong. Some think too strong, some think reasonably strong.

This is a place to debate that.

Sat/Faturday.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 11:14 AM by Noashakra

Hedien wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 11:11 AM
Guys, don't make your exchange lock the post.

Assassin are strong. Some think too strong, some think reasonably strong.

This is a place to debate that.

Sat/Faturday.

Asking to give immunity after purge shows that some people have no idea about class balancing.
Imagine giving a DD immunity to a mage DD/dot... Rofl.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 1:19 PM by Saroi

Well after reading here there are some confusing stuff for me.

Some complain like they have to use actives to defeat a Sin. If you spec into actives then you have no choice other than using it because you gain no benefit otherwise. It's same like some people going Det 9 and think they should still have a good time 1v1. If you don't like it, go more passive like toughness, mob/parry or aom.

As for Viper and Dot damage. It basically is the only thing Sins have. Other classes have so many actives etc. to spec and use. With the latest changes to pd and aom, the overall damage from Sins already got lowered and I have been seeing more and more people speccing into aom. So a good portion of dot damage, procs or in case of Nightshade with dd's gets lowered.

The only thing I would agree on and I have been against that change would be the ws/con debuff hitting before pa/backstab. This is something completely new in DAoC as a custom change and I don't think it is a good idea. It would be better to overall increase the PA/Backstab damage because in this case the targets that it will hit are casters or light armors like other Sins. As for tanks the damage will still get absorbed by the ws/con debuff which has been pretty much always the case. Atm in this state no matter what targets, openers will deal damage.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 2:21 PM by Glasny

WildWilbur wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 9:31 AM
Glasny wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 8:30 AM
Agree with OP : Sins should be tuned down for balance sake.
Maybe nerf viper and some poison immune timers on purge (for desease and debuffs).

Pretty please

Yes, pretty please! Because my understanding of balance is that I don't lose to an assassin! Because I don't like them! Because they are OP! Because they have posion and stuff! And I hate them! Pretty please!

Nice troll !
I tried really hard, but failed to see your point.
I actually think assassins are a very interesting part of this game. I'm just saying that they are too strong currently.
Class balance is an important issue, especially for solo play

Wed 2 Dec 2020 2:59 PM by Noashakra

Glasny wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 2:21 PM
WildWilbur wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 9:31 AM
Glasny wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 8:30 AM
Agree with OP : Sins should be tuned down for balance sake.
Maybe nerf viper and some poison immune timers on purge (for desease and debuffs).

Pretty please

Yes, pretty please! Because my understanding of balance is that I don't lose to an assassin! Because I don't like them! Because they are OP! Because they have posion and stuff! And I hate them! Pretty please!

Nice troll !
I tried really hard, but failed to see your point.
I actually think assassins are a very interesting part of this game. I'm just saying that they are too strong currently.
Class balance is an important issue, especially for solo play

What is your basis to say they are too strong?
My personnal expérience, with ranger and warrior, is that they are not.
When I speak with Shalelu, Lhei, Catkain, Drunkstain, Eullogie or jackle, who are all visi solo players, I never hear that assassins are OP...
Strange !

And Yarna also who is replying to this topic.

Again, I ask anyone that say that assassins are too strong to give us the name of the toon they have difficulties with. The only one who had the courage to do it so far is faturday. We even discussed together on discord some strategies and RA changes to see if it will change the outcome vs sins.

I am sure most of you aren't even soloers, so the importance your opinion on this topic would be close to 0.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 3:18 PM by Hedien

Saroi wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 1:19 PM
Some complain like they have to use actives to defeat a Sin. If you spec into actives then you have no choice other than using it because you gain no benefit otherwise. It's same like some people going Det 9 and think they should still have a good time 1v1. If you don't like it, go more passive like toughness, mob/parry or aom.

The only thing I would agree on and I have been against that change would be the ws/con debuff hitting before pa/backstab. This is something completely new in DAoC as a custom change and I don't think it is a good idea. It would be better to overall increase the PA/Backstab damage because in this case the targets that it will hit are casters or light armors like other Sins. As for tanks the damage will still get absorbed by the ws/con debuff which has been pretty much always the case. Atm in this state no matter what targets, openers will deal damage.

Just to clarify, I am observing that even with active, you still die 50% of the time (roughly).

In my mind, an active should be giving a massive one-off advantage:
- UP; High performance.
- Down: Low performance (due to tradeoff with passive)
- in the end you have average performance if you take into account both up and down.

However, when fighting an assassin... you still cannot outperform them with High performance active RA while they are only at their "average" performance because mainly using passives.

So tank should have natural advantage over assassin.
Active vs. passive should have an advantage due to cooldown tradeoff implication.
In my specific case, I have a solo RA spec: moparry 7, moblock 5, aom 3, mopain 1, mofocus 2, ip 3, purge 3, st1, constit/toughness 3.
Gear-wise, full mp. d/q proc hammer, abla charge before going out and ensuring the 2 min cd is up for heart.
purge and ip/charge/pot at the same time to prevent reduction due to reapplication of disease poison.
Numb to block CD.
ASR debuff as soon as possible, after focus on parry reactive creating bleed.
Constantly switching between shield and 2hander to maximize avoidance/damage/avoidance penetration. 2hander having an energy proc synergetic with debuff proc.

Shouldn't it be sufficient to win? I don't feel I am an awfully bad player here.

In this post, I have seen silly suggestions. But I actually think that your s/c debuff suggestion timing is quite pragmatic. Right now s/c debuff and PA combined will hit for 700-800 dmg without crit. Seems high against a tank. To bring it down to 350-450 with s/c debuff applied afterwards would be more sensible.

Sat/Faturday.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 3:23 PM by soremir

I solo a fair bit, although less lately because as has been mentioned, it gets old feeding my solo RPs to duos and small-men who enjoy fights they know they can't lose.

I don't think that many assassins are too OP. There are certainly some that are total monsters, but you get the sense that they earned that by grinding their RR, temping, and just getting all the crazy stuff down you need to play an assassin well. You can feel the difference between fighting a stealther who knows what they're doing and those who don't.

I don't take issue with their power level, my only real gripe is Vanish. Maybe this isn't the place, but I'd be willing to even buff assassins in exchange for removing that ability. I get that stealthers should be able to pick their fights, and that's a fun part of the class, but if they do pick them, they should actually have to do some work to get away. It also doesn't help that with viper etc., they get you to drop some RAs and then just disappear. Not a big deal, but just my two cents. I'm used to them being the breaks on this server and you just adapt, but I do think there's a huge gap between how much fun it is to play stealthers (seems very high) and how much fun it is to play against them (can be frustrating most of the time). I think swapping out vanish for something else would go a long way to shrinking this gap.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 4:23 PM by Noashakra

soremir wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 3:23 PM
I solo a fair bit, although less lately because as has been mentioned, it gets old feeding my solo RPs to duos and small-men who enjoy fights they know they can't lose.

I don't think that many assassins are too OP. There are certainly some that are total monsters, but you get the sense that they earned that by grinding their RR, temping, and just getting all the crazy stuff down you need to play an assassin well. You can feel the difference between fighting a stealther who knows what they're doing and those who don't.

I don't take issue with their power level, my only real gripe is Vanish. Maybe this isn't the place, but I'd be willing to even buff assassins in exchange for removing that ability. I get that stealthers should be able to pick their fights, and that's a fun part of the class, but if they do pick them, they should actually have to do some work to get away. It also doesn't help that with viper etc., they get you to drop some RAs and then just disappear. Not a big deal, but just my two cents. I'm used to them being the breaks on this server and you just adapt, but I do think there's a huge gap between how much fun it is to play stealthers (seems very high) and how much fun it is to play against them (can be frustrating most of the time). I think swapping out vanish for something else would go a long way to shrinking this gap.

This is a fair point. I personnaly avoid using vanish 1vs1, except when I have a thane/bd/merc dropping all their RA (DT, TWF, TS, etc. on me). Otherwise I use it when I am outnumbered. But if you give IP or even buff the dmg instead of vanish, the people here will lose their mind.
i get how frustrating when people vanish on you, because lots of other stealthers do it to me too

But I feel the same when someone use IP3+.

@faturday I forgot to tell you, but I use a charge debuff str/con with my ranger vs assassins, it saves your more life during the whole fight and also hit them for 200/300hp.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 4:31 PM by evert

I think I agree with the overall point, assassins maybe a bit too strong atm; with everything up its maybe 60/40 for me vs equal rank (as a skald - assuming I get PA'd), but the rest of the time they outperform their relative level (and I think they would even if I respeccced to more passives, not that I don't have them). I get what they were trying with the PA/debuff change, to make PA more viable (some ns were opening with side stun, etc), but it should be more of a thing vs casters/other assassins, as said.

Also frustrating is the high variance with evade vs debuffed 2h (mostly), some fights I win easily and some I have no chance, vs the same enemy; nothing to do with skill (obviously in the long run skill is important). Most other targets I feel there is less rng and more strategy.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 4:38 PM by Noashakra

Well the PA/debuff, I wasn't a huge fan tbh, but when you miss, the 15% nerf on the poison is a big hit to your chances to win the fight
So if you succeed, the PA dmg is really good, and if you miss, you are in big trouble.

Skald is not a big deal for me, until they are 9L+, then they are beasts. But skalds have not a lot of defenses at the start (gl vs MoP 7+ though), and they can SOS away, which is kind of like vanish :p

Wed 2 Dec 2020 6:29 PM by Noashakra

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 6:00 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 11:01 AM
Git gut and stop blaming assassin for your lack of skills.
It's becoming ridiculous.
I played solo melee ranger until the 9L9, and even if assassins were stronger, I never felt they were OP. I could kill most of them with only purge.
But keep blaming them instead of self reflecting.

Give us your solo toon (and I doubt you have one lol), and then maybe it'll become clear to everybody why you make ridiculous posts after ridiculous posts about asssassins.

Noashakra: Have you played your melee ranger since the 2020-06-19 patch? The game mechanics heavily shifted to assassins' favour since that patch. Before that patch my hunter could actually beat assassins with purge and IP4 up. Now, a RR3 nightshade can beat me. This isn't down to 'skill' or 'gitgud' nonsense. The game mechanics have shifted to favour the assassin. Prior to that patch, I could beat most assassins with my hunter and now, it's rare or they have to have not reapplied poisons/dots/debuffs.

I suggest you dust off your melee hunter and try going up against the plethora of shadowblades and infiltrators out there and see how well you do.

I knew there was a reason I haven't seen Horg or Malla on in a very long time.

Dude, the only real change is the PA damage. as a hunter, with with 250 detect range, you can still first hit to avoid the PA. And in that case you take 15% less from the debuff. As a ranger, PA+CD was always rough to come back because you have to purge early.

And lol Malla, he was always bad and afk until IP 5 +purge was up

Zerged his way to RR11 horrible player... With his friend Ghen, equally as bad as a SB, who logs off in DF after using vanish 1vs1... What a team.

Aslso Horg is in this thread and doesn't agree with you, so go figure...

My ranger is pec AoM 7 + EM 1 + IP 2. Maybe try something else than IP4.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 8:54 PM by The Skies Asunder

I don't really love the PA/Enervating changes myself, and I don't play a solo tank (Though I have a templated Champion, and a BM I may start running around on). What I do have though, is a hybrid ranger. I am not even full melee spec, I have 39+16 blades, and 19+16 CD and am only RR6L4 (because filthy casual). I am solo half the time, and duo the other half. When I am solo, I almost never feel like I am unable to win a fight vs. assassins. Even the really good ones, I still feel I have a shot against if my timers are active. Tanks are obviously getting PA/CD a lot more than I am, since I almost always get the first attack off, or the sin has to use a diff style due to placement. I just can't see how tanks are constantly losing to sins if they are set up to solo.

Thu 3 Dec 2020 8:36 AM by Saroi

Hedien wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 3:18 PM
Just to clarify, I am observing that even with active, you still die 50% of the time (roughly).

In my mind, an active should be giving a massive one-off advantage:
- UP; High performance.
- Down: Low performance (due to tradeoff with passive)
- in the end you have average performance if you take into account both up and down.

However, when fighting an assassin... you still cannot outperform them with High performance active RA while they are only at their "average" performance because mainly using passives.

So tank should have natural advantage over assassin.
Active vs. passive should have an advantage due to cooldown tradeoff implication.
In my specific case, I have a solo RA spec: moparry 7, moblock 5, aom 3, mopain 1, mofocus 2, ip 3, purge 3, st1, constit/toughness 3.
Gear-wise, full mp. d/q proc hammer, abla charge before going out and ensuring the 2 min cd is up for heart.
purge and ip/charge/pot at the same time to prevent reduction due to reapplication of disease poison.
Numb to block CD.
ASR debuff as soon as possible, after focus on parry reactive creating bleed.
Constantly switching between shield and 2hander to maximize avoidance/damage/avoidance penetration. 2hander having an energy proc synergetic with debuff proc.

Shouldn't it be sufficient to win? I don't feel I am an awfully bad player here.

In this post, I have seen silly suggestions. But I actually think that your s/c debuff suggestion timing is quite pragmatic. Right now s/c debuff and PA combined will hit for 700-800 dmg without crit. Seems high against a tank. To bring it down to 350-450 with s/c debuff applied afterwards would be more sensible.

Sat/Faturday.

Tanks do have a natural advantage but the question is what do you consider a tank? A true tank is Warrior/Hero/Arms. Then you have the Light tanks as Berserker/Merc/BM and maybe savage. Thane on the other hand isn't really considered a Tank, you are a hybrid. So you have way less HP and lower damage table than a Tank. Being hybrid gives you an advantage vs. Casters but you have a disadvantages vs. melees compared to a Tank.

As of the other stuff I can't really say anything. I never been too much into Thanes. They buffed their casting here on the server but I think Thanes are missing on 1 or 2 DD procs in weapon lines or something else that would help melee. Maybe also get WoC 1-2 atleast for some burst damage.

But for your RA's maybe I would get some points into WoC. It can always be a nice burst

Thu 3 Dec 2020 10:07 AM by Lollie

From what i've heard WoC has terrible fall off, so unless youe living inside someones nut sack you'll not get the full damage

Thu 3 Dec 2020 10:14 AM by inoeth

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 6:00 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 11:01 AM
Git gut and stop blaming assassin for your lack of skills.
It's becoming ridiculous.
I played solo melee ranger until the 9L9, and even if assassins were stronger, I never felt they were OP. I could kill most of them with only purge.
But keep blaming them instead of self reflecting.

Give us your solo toon (and I doubt you have one lol), and then maybe it'll become clear to everybody why you make ridiculous posts after ridiculous posts about asssassins.

Noashakra: Have you played your melee ranger since the 2020-06-19 patch? The game mechanics heavily shifted to assassins' favour since that patch. Before that patch my hunter could actually beat assassins with purge and IP4 up. Now, a RR3 nightshade can beat me. This isn't down to 'skill' or 'gitgud' nonsense. The game mechanics have shifted to favour the assassin. Prior to that patch, I could beat most assassins with my hunter and now, it's rare or they have to have not reapplied poisons/dots/debuffs.

I suggest you dust off your melee hunter and try going up against the plethora of shadowblades and infiltrators out there and see how well you do.

I knew there was a reason I haven't seen Horg or Malla on in a very long time.

you have not seen me because i have little time atm to play video games. nothing to do with any patch.

Thu 3 Dec 2020 10:42 AM by Saroi

Lollie wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 10:07 AM
From what i've heard WoC has terrible fall off, so unless youe living inside someones nut sack you'll not get the full damage

If you are fighting 1v1 and enemy has stick on you it is easy to walkthrough and use it when you are right inside of them.

Thu 3 Dec 2020 12:43 PM by Noashakra

We cann see here the opness of the NS 11L+ vs a tank 8L
https://ibb.co/7nb5B3w
Didn't have to use purge or IP, finishes at 50% life, despite the NS being so good.

PLEASE NERF THE ASSASSINS !!!!!!!!!!!

Fri 4 Dec 2020 1:17 AM by Hedien

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 12:43 PM
We cann see here the opness of the NS 11L+ vs a tank 8L
https://ibb.co/7nb5B3w
Didn't have to use purge or IP, finishes at 50% life, despite the NS being so good.

PLEASE NERF THE ASSASSINS !!!!!!!!!!!

We don't see anything on your screenshot.

But by typing in Google you find his video, and without using IP he consistently wins. Or... does he only show his victories where skill/rng was in his favor? He does not show much death...

Also, I played arms for a while myself and this is a bit of an exception:

The arms is insanely strong in melee, but is really vulnerable to kite / range dps. And that's why he mostly plays near structures, to get within snare range.

But I see your point:
- Arms (see above)
- Merc (fumble skill)
- Zerk / Monk (reflex attack RA)

These classes are the biggest counter to any melee. and the last 2 even more due to dual wield thus melee stealthers.
Most other class would need IP for a fighting chance. Even reaver and champion that are significantly above in terms of performance. Hero mostly use IP and Antlers to kill.

In my mind, even if I believe Thane / VW / Reaver / Champion should have slight advantage over melee stealthers, if you told me "no they should be on par", I would still believe that using CD RA vs. passive should provide an advantage. It does not consistently.

Sat/Faturday.

Fri 4 Dec 2020 7:29 AM by Noashakra

I have not problem with tank and light tank having advantages over assassins.
Of course, it's a video and you show some best case scenario. But it clearly doesn't play in favor of the narative of a lot of people here that assassins can jump about anything.

I made a duel yesterday with a friend on his zerk 4L9 vs my 9L9, and I finished at 35% hp.
I have 50 RA points more and he has deter9 and purge 2.

Fri 4 Dec 2020 10:36 AM by boridi

Hedien wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Dec 2020 1:17 AM
Also, I played arms for a while myself and this is a bit of an exception:
There is a specific style with the highest GR in game Defender's Rage. 1.20 compared to 0.88 for a reactive, this becomes an anytimer against any melee really.
With +15 hit bonus, even higher penetration that the already high armsman half ogre ws provides.
If the melee tries to escape, anytimer snare.
Then let's look at the armor type: plate - higher absorb and less damage vs thrust. Compared to most mids being weak to thrust.
Then let's look at the weapon type: if I recall well, you can spec to switch slash/thrust depending on enemy type having yet another damage benefit.

The arms is insanely strong in melee, but is really vulnerable to kite / range dps. And that's why he mostly plays near structures, to get within snare range.

Armsman need some kind of nerf

Fri 4 Dec 2020 7:04 PM by Pingyongyang

The point of assassins is to sneak around and hit solo casters and maybe a melee low on health. A R3 tank or light tank should destroy a R10 assassin.

Assassins are supposed to be a minor annoyance that are played by people that cheese stealth and aren't good players by definition. Its an MMO, they are bottom feeders.

Sat 5 Dec 2020 12:24 AM by Taniquetil

Pingyongyang wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Dec 2020 7:04 PM
The point of assassins is to sneak around and hit solo casters and maybe a melee low on health. A R3 tank or light tank should destroy a R10 assassin.

Assassins are supposed to be a minor annoyance that are played by people that cheese stealth and aren't good players by definition. Its an MMO, they are bottom feeders.

Funny, some of the best players across a lot of mmo genres have been rogues, pretty sure one or two Rogues entirely revolutionised the way WoW was played when it first launched.

Your comment is utterly ridiculous. Now, show me your bottom.

Sat 5 Dec 2020 7:36 AM by PoisonClovers

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 5:14 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 10:18 PM
PoisonClovers wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 7:10 PM
Envenom DoT +viper 5
Epic Raid Wep DoT
Craftable player DoT
Bleed DoT

all stack.. Even heard there is a 4th Weapon Proc but I've never seen it or found it. That's a lot of DPS for doing nothing.

outside of this, don't really see much if a problem.
Only the SB can triple dot, the other realms don't use the weapon because the speed is terrible.
Btw, you can also dot and bleed on most classes, the merc can reach the bleed cap in two hits, and also has access to double dot if they want to, so what was your point about dot proc and bleed?
There are no 4th weapon that can dot btw.
Context is your friend

when a merc can hit you twice and vanish and all those DoTs still kill its target, then we can have a conversation. saying no one uses the Craftable dot because you think the speed is terrible lol but everyone i know uses it.. but ok lol

My point was simply, get pa'd, cd... they vanish your stunned and these DoTs are killing classes.

Sat 5 Dec 2020 11:02 AM by Noashakra

PoisonClovers wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Dec 2020 7:36 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Dec 2020 5:14 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 10:18 PM
PoisonClovers wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Dec 2020 7:10 PM
Envenom DoT +viper 5
Epic Raid Wep DoT
Craftable player DoT
Bleed DoT

all stack.. Even heard there is a 4th Weapon Proc but I've never seen it or found it. That's a lot of DPS for doing nothing.

outside of this, don't really see much if a problem.
Only the SB can triple dot, the other realms don't use the weapon because the speed is terrible.
Btw, you can also dot and bleed on most classes, the merc can reach the bleed cap in two hits, and also has access to double dot if they want to, so what was your point about dot proc and bleed?
There are no 4th weapon that can dot btw.
Context is your friend

when a merc can hit you twice and vanish and all those DoTs still kill its target, then we can have a conversation. saying no one uses the Craftable dot because you think the speed is terrible lol but everyone i know uses it.. but ok lol

My point was simply, get pa'd, cd... they vanish your stunned and these DoTs are killing classes.

Did you read? I said triple dot, not double dot... You don't use the 3.3 blade on hib, because the speed is terrible and the DPS is not compensated by the dot proc dmg, so you don't triple dot. Every class has access to the dot crafted weapons, so what?
You can't even read and comprehend correctly. And then you speak about class balance?
Merc that can cheese any class with DT LMAO!

Sat 5 Dec 2020 11:11 AM by keen

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Dec 2020 12:24 AM
Pingyongyang wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Dec 2020 7:04 PM
The point of assassins is to sneak around and hit solo casters and maybe a melee low on health. A R3 tank or light tank should destroy a R10 assassin.

Assassins are supposed to be a minor annoyance that are played by people that cheese stealth and aren't good players by definition. Its an MMO, they are bottom feeders.

Funny, some of the best players across a lot of mmo genres have been rogues, pretty sure one or two Rogues entirely revolutionised the way WoW was played when it first launched.

Your comment is utterly ridiculous. Now, show me your bottom.

And you see yourself in one line with those players. Superior skills, no balance issue.
Rogue player best skills any game! Not a game design issue that a class like that just sells and is op in many games

Sat 5 Dec 2020 12:46 PM by Taniquetil

keen wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Dec 2020 11:11 AM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Dec 2020 12:24 AM
Pingyongyang wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Dec 2020 7:04 PM
The point of assassins is to sneak around and hit solo casters and maybe a melee low on health. A R3 tank or light tank should destroy a R10 assassin.

Assassins are supposed to be a minor annoyance that are played by people that cheese stealth and aren't good players by definition. Its an MMO, they are bottom feeders.

Funny, some of the best players across a lot of mmo genres have been rogues, pretty sure one or two Rogues entirely revolutionised the way WoW was played when it first launched.

Your comment is utterly ridiculous. Now, show me your bottom.
And you see yourself in one line with those players. Superior skills, no balance issue.
Rogue player best skills any game! Not a game design issue that a class like that just sells and is op in many games

I made no reference to my own abilities, just dismissed his sweeping comments about all assassins across all mmos being bad players and bottom feeders, just lolling at how nonsense his comment was, Likely in denial about his own capabilities. But hey, if sin players lack any skill they should be easy to beat....so go wild!

Funnily enough one or two of those assasin players have since rolled visis and been able to beat even the RR11s even at RR4. Very strange.... very strange indeed.

If you cant beat an assassin with a tank thats on you. End of story.

Most of those sins you were naming and moaning about I was able to beat at RR3... theres even videos 🤷‍♂️. Every fight? Nope. Doable? Yep. But hey, when you’re shown videos of classes beating assassins you just seemingly dismiss them as not realistic (Armsman OP).... I see those strong and good assassins as fun challenges and willingly put myself in situations which are an uphill struggle for the fun of it. You probably died twice, didnt try to adjust your gameplay at all and cried nerf. Yarna rerolled from an pretty decent SB, sat in the solozone took some beatings, learned his class, worked with the sins to do so, and now puts a spanking on everyone. That’s the difference.

Sun 6 Dec 2020 12:03 PM by Blitze

I see solo enchanters, sorcs and Cabas fairly regularly.
But they do usually get Instagibbed by assassins.

(The enchanters if they’ve avoided assassin long enough, easily collect their free RPs from my immobile Friar face)

Sun 6 Dec 2020 5:23 PM by Taniquetil

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Dec 2020 11:48 AM
LOL @ this.
I can't remember the last time I ever saw a solo alb or hib caster.

Could say the same about you. 19k kills on your hunter. 600 of them solo. That’s THREE PERCENT 😂😂😂.

Seen elds, chanters and even bards with a better distribution than that.

Sun 6 Dec 2020 5:30 PM by keen

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Dec 2020 5:23 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Dec 2020 11:48 AM
LOL @ this.
I can't remember the last time I ever saw a solo alb or hib caster.

Could say the same about you. 19k kills on your hunter. 600 of them solo. That’s THREE PERCENT 😂😂😂.

Seen elds, chanters and even bards with a better distribution than that.

Assassin making fun of others not having enough solo kills, classic. GG u r outstanding, you can kill someone 1v1 with your class.

Sun 6 Dec 2020 8:44 PM by Taniquetil

keen wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Dec 2020 5:30 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Dec 2020 5:23 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Dec 2020 11:48 AM
LOL @ this.
I can't remember the last time I ever saw a solo alb or hib caster.

Could say the same about you. 19k kills on your hunter. 600 of them solo. That’s THREE PERCENT 😂😂😂.

Seen elds, chanters and even bards with a better distribution than that.
Assassin making fun of others not having enough solo kills, classic. GG u r outstanding, you can kill someone 1v1 with your class.

He’s a hunter, a class that is equally capable of soloing, and there are bards eldritches and chanters with better solo kill ratios than he has, and he was making jokes about never seeing casters solo.

I made no reference to my own characters, just again pointing out how ridiculous his commentary was. Thats twice you've jumped to conclusions now. I guess you’ll never reveal your characters though, that’d mean we could scrutinise you back...

Mon 7 Dec 2020 6:41 AM by Hedien

Since this post has mostly turned into emotional uncontrolled replies, and that we had a fair share of real arguments both sides, I think it should be closed and for Dev to decide what they want to do. If they want to do something.

As we have started to discuss this topic, I feel my mindset evolved a bit: I feel the problem of assassin do not lie in RA uniquely. I think it is mainly a problem of scalability.
The way that assassin can adjust their build points across multiple lines to be even stronger is a real headache for balancing purposes:
- Low ranks have not yet optimal build. They suffer, whether they play well or not. (probably even more since their class is new to them)
- High ranks have optimal build and destroy mostly everything.

So if you apply boost or nerf across the class, this will be unfair either way.
- Boost will be unfair for high ranks. They would be more powerful while they don't need it.
- Nerf will be unfair for low ranks.

This applies for all classes that have this ability to redistribute points without losing key abilities as they rank up.

So how do we handle it? I don't have the creativity to provide a solution and when looking at all solutions proposed in this thread, all would face the same issue I illustrated. Maybe the devs can think of something.

Sat/Faturday.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 9:29 AM by gotwqqd

Hedien wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 6:41 AM
Since this post has mostly turned into emotional uncontrolled replies, and that we had a fair share of real arguments both sides, I think it should be closed and for Dev to decide what they want to do. If they want to do something.

As we have started to discuss this topic, I feel my mindset evolved a bit: I feel the problem of assassin do not lie in RA uniquely. I think it is mainly a problem of scalability.
The way that assassin can adjust their build points across multiple lines to be even stronger is a real headache for balancing purposes:
- Low ranks have not yet optimal build. They suffer, whether they play well or not. (probably even more since their class is new to them)
- High ranks have optimal build and destroy mostly everything.

So if you apply boost or nerf across the class, this will be unfair either way.
- Boost will be unfair for high ranks. They would be more powerful while they don't need it.
- Nerf will be unfair for low ranks.

This applies for all classes that have this ability to redistribute points without losing key abilities as they rank up.

So how do we handle it? I don't have the creativity to provide a solution and when looking at all solutions proposed in this thread, all would face the same issue I illustrated. Maybe the devs can think of something.

Sat/Faturday.

This is one of the issues.
Every RR they can redistribute points from envenom and stealth(maybe weapon line) into CS/(fill in dual handed)

I think most of the problems are from the envenom line.
A. No immunities
B. Reapplying
C. Not needing to “spec for the style”, instead composite

I’d like to see B and/or C changed.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:01 AM by Noashakra

And thanks god nobody will listen to your nonsensical suggestions...

Faturday overestimate the "scalability" of the assassins, It's a bit different for the SB and inf (they profit more from this, with dual shadow in DW and the left axe system), but I will speak about the NS.
Standard buid for NS :
RR4 > 22CD
RR10 > 42CD
That's the only difference. That's a 17.2% chance to hit left hand more on the build (I don't take into account the RR bonus that also incease, but that's the case of all the classes). My left hand do a whooping 49 damage. 43.92% vs 61.12%. It means that on average, without any bonus, just with the points your spare in stealth/weapon/poisons, the average damage of the low rr build lef hand is 21.5 vs 29.9 damage for the high rank build. Scalability...

Assassin making fun of others not having enough solo kills, classic. GG u r outstanding, you can kill someone 1v1 with your class.

I dare that you show us it's possible. 80% of the assassins are garbo on this server and they have to 2 or 3 vs1 to win a fight. But you still didn't tell where the assassin touched you.
Give us your solo toon name, or be quiet.
I am sure you people are not even playing solo. Your opinion means nothing

Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:31 AM by Stoertebecker

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Dec 2020 11:42 AM
Avoid Magic 7? That's what.. 15% less magic damage + Empty Mind 1 which is 10% so.. 25% off viper damage?
Does that really work? It's a bit specialised. So you're basically an assassin killer and not much else?

AoM 7 = 20%, EM 1= 10% , that works even on a hunter. I have AoM 5, and that alone has more value for me than ip4 (compared to ip3).
It also increase the chance to resist an effect.

What else can you kill as an archer running around solo beside other archers, assassins, casters and low rr versions of every other class?

Mon 7 Dec 2020 12:05 PM by DJ2000

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 9:29 AM
I think most of the problems are from the envenom line.
A. No immunities
B. Reapplying
C. Not needing to “spec for the style”, instead composite

I’d like to see B and/or C changed.

There are only 2 Skills that define and distinguish the Assassin from other Classes in the Game.
1. Critical Strike and
2. Envenom.

Albeit the rather lacking Melee prowess of an Assassin, beside the CS Opening-Chains, the "strength" and major part of their Power and Damage lies within the Envenom Line (+Viper/ high DW-LA-CD).
So much as Builds and Temps are catered towards "speed" to get the most out of said Skill Line.

Your two suggested Changes (A and B are basically the same) would be a slap in the Face for every Assassin and the "current Meta".
Only taking the "Composite Effect" out of Envenom would already force every actively played Assassin to re-Build and re-Temp.

Those are not a "nerfs", its a complete Class change (Build, Temp, Playstyle).

But I do understand the intention behind your suggestions and i also do acknowledge the maybe questionable and rather "unique" aspects of Envenom overall.

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:31 AM
AoM 7 = 20%, EM 1= 10% , that works even on a hunter. I have AoM 5, and that alone has more value for me than ip4 (compared to ip3).
It also increase the chance to resist an effect.

Sadly AoM has 0 effect on Resist Rates.
Primary Resists are used for Resist calculations (or durations), with AoM being a secondary Resistance, it is only considered when calculating Damage and nothing else.
Other than that, i agree with you.

With a regular Temp, all Resists being around 26%, AoM7+EM1 would "effectively" add another 22%.
Which results in a 48% Damage reduction to all DoTs (+proccs/DD/etc.),

Mon 7 Dec 2020 12:34 PM by keen

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Dec 2020 8:44 PM
He’s hunter, a class that is equally capable of soloing,

Made my day.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 12:58 PM by Hedien

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 12:05 PM
There are only 2 Skills that define and distinguish the Assassin from other Classes in the Game.
1. Critical Strike and
2. Envenom.

And the ability to start the fight melee range vs. unsuspecting pre-selected target.
Isn't it?

On Noa comment - aren't you unlocking styles as well with additional points?
Because I just discussed that with an Infi and it seems they do.

Sat/Faturday.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 1:14 PM by Kyuss25

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 12:05 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:31 AM
AoM 7 = 20%, EM 1= 10% , that works even on a hunter. I have AoM 5, and that alone has more value for me than ip4 (compared to ip3).
It also increase the chance to resist an effect.

Sadly AoM has 0 effect on Resist Rates.
Primary Resists are used for Resist calculations (or durations), with AoM being a secondary Resistance, it is only considered when calculating Damage and nothing else.
Other than that, i agree with you.

With a regular Temp, all Resists being around 26%, AoM7+EM1 would "effectively" add another 22%.
Which results in a 48% Damage reduction to all DoTs (+proccs/DD/etc.),

IP 4+5 adds approx. 600 HP for 15 points.
For the same amount one could get AoM5 + EM1 (in total 22% secondary resists).
I can't see why this should be more effective. Maybe somebody can enlighten me?

Mon 7 Dec 2020 1:49 PM by DJ2000

Hedien wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 12:58 PM
And the ability to start the fight melee range vs. unsuspecting pre-selected target.
Isn't it?

Sat/Faturday.

Hunter, Ranger, Scout (Archers)
Minstrel
... can do it too, you should know that.

Kyuss25 wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 1:14 PM
IP 4+5 adds approx. 600 HP for 15 points.
For the same amount one could get AoM5 + EM1 (in total 22% secondary resists).
I can't see why this should be more effective. Maybe somebody can enlighten me?

Not quite.
For one, i stated AoM7 (20%) and EM1 (10% for 45 sec.) resulting in effectively ~22% (when 26% Temp = 48%).
AoM5 12% and EM1 would be effectively ~16% Damage reduction. (when 26% Temp = 42%).

Expect to get hit by a DoT for around ~10X-11X Dmg without aom5 (no EM1)
Expect to get hit by a DoT for around ~7X-9X Dmg with aom5 (no EM1, with EM1 it would roughly be another -6 or 8)
Expect to get hit by a DoT for less than ~6X with AoM7+EM1 (regular, no crits)
Expect to get hit by 2 DoTs simultaneously
Expect both "tick", depending on your class, for around 2+ times (quick defeat) or 5+ (actual fight with re-applying) or even 9+ (usually a long fight both purge).
As an Archer you have not that bad of a chance to open the fight yourself, thanks to the Stealth detection Range.

This is not a i-win strat, but it seems more beneficial than going for ip5+purge.
ip5+purgeX vs ip3+purgeX+aom5+em1.
when facing Assassins. hybrids, Minstrels/skalds (classes that have magic Damage obv.)

If you have other experience then please go ahead.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 1:53 PM by Hedien

Yes, but he mentioned as a difference with other melee classes. Not range dps or ... whatever the minst is categorized in.

Sat/Faturday.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 2:10 PM by gotwqqd

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 12:05 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 9:29 AM
I think most of the problems are from the envenom line.
A. No immunities
B. Reapplying
C. Not needing to “spec for the style”, instead composite

I’d like to see B and/or C changed.
There are only 2 Skills that define and distinguish the Assassin from other Classes in the Game.
1. Critical Strike and
2. Envenom.

Albeit the rather lacking Melee prowess of an Assassin, beside the CS Opening-Chains, the "strength" and major part of their Power and Damage lies within the Envenom Line (+Viper/ high DW-LA-CD).
So much as Builds and Temps are catered towards "speed" to get the most out of said Skill Line.

Your two suggested Changes (A and B are basically the same) would be a slap in the Face for every Assassin and the "current Meta".
Only taking the "Composite Effect" out of Envenom would already force every actively played Assassin to re-Build and re-Temp.

Those are not a "nerfs", its a complete Class change (Build, Temp, Playstyle).

But I do understand the intention behind your suggestions and i also do acknowledge the maybe questionable and rather "unique" aspects of Envenom overall.

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:31 AM
AoM 7 = 20%, EM 1= 10% , that works even on a hunter. I have AoM 5, and that alone has more value for me than ip4 (compared to ip3).
It also increase the chance to resist an effect.

Sadly AoM has 0 effect on Resist Rates.
Primary Resists are used for Resist calculations (or durations), with AoM being a secondary Resistance, it is only considered when calculating Damage and nothing else.
Other than that, i agree with you.

With a regular Temp, all Resists being around 26%, AoM7+EM1 would "effectively" add another 22%.
Which results in a 48% Damage reduction to all DoTs (+proccs/DD/etc.),

I likely forgot to state it here but have in other places, with the changes to envenom would come an appropriate increase in melee damage.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 2:48 PM by DJ2000

Hedien wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 1:53 PM
Yes, but he mentioned as a difference with other melee classes. Not range dps or ... whatever the minst is categorized in.

Sat/Faturday.

Stop it,
Or are we going to discuss the "melee" class Nightshade, as he can Cast DD at 1500 Range?

Is it 100% certain that being attacked out of stealth has to be an Assassin? Chances are high, yes. But its not 100%. It could have also been 1 of the aforementioned classes.
Getting hit by Perforate Artery (Critical Strike) or getting poisoned (Envenom) is 100% only Assassin.

A Class defining Skill is something that only that specific Class can do, simple as that.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 3:03 PM by Noashakra

Hedien wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 12:58 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 12:05 PM
There are only 2 Skills that define and distinguish the Assassin from other Classes in the Game.
1. Critical Strike and
2. Envenom.

And the ability to start the fight melee range vs. unsuspecting pre-selected target.
Isn't it?

On Noa comment - aren't you unlocking styles as well with additional points?
Because I just discussed that with an Infi and it seems they do.

Sat/Faturday.

You only use the side stun + follow up (29 CD) in the dual line. The rest is horrible.
Inf and SB have more options and interesting styles (dual shadow and Aurora Borealis chain) but the SB needs to sacrifice CS, while the infiltrator doesn't.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 3:37 PM by gotwqqd

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 2:48 PM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 1:53 PM
Yes, but he mentioned as a difference with other melee classes. Not range dps or ... whatever the minst is categorized in.

Sat/Faturday.
Stop it,
Or are we going to discuss the "melee" class Nightshade, as he can Cast DD at 1500 Range?

Is it 100% certain that being attacked out of stealth has to be an Assassin? Chances are high, yes. But its not 100%. It could have also been 1 of the aforementioned classes.
Getting hit by Perforate Artery (Critical Strike) or getting poisoned (Envenom) is 100% only Assassin.

A Class defining Skill is something that only that specific Class can do, simple as that.

Your opinion....it’s wrong, but it’s yours.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 4:03 PM by Stoertebecker

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 12:05 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:31 AM
AoM 7 = 20%, EM 1= 10% , that works even on a hunter. I have AoM 5, and that alone has more value for me than ip4 (compared to ip3).
It also increase the chance to resist an effect.

Sadly AoM has 0 effect on Resist Rates.
Primary Resists are used for Resist calculations (or durations), with AoM being a secondary Resistance, it is only considered when calculating Damage and nothing else.
Other than that, i agree with you.

From the feelings it has a minimal effect, it feels like resisting more. But 1 from ten or 1,2 from 10 is irrelevant.

I`m not sure, wasn`t there a grab bag about AoM where Mythic stated that it is a bit buggy and just 1 point in AoM should trigger the effect like it should?

Mon 7 Dec 2020 4:03 PM by gotwqqd

keen wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 4:00 PM
Weapon proc dots tick for sth like 60dmg tops without aom.
Aom and empty mind are secondary resists not primary.

So they are multiplicative? Not additive?

Mon 7 Dec 2020 4:08 PM by DJ2000

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 3:37 PM
Your opinion....it’s wrong, but it’s yours.

It's not an opinion, it's a fact.
Feel free to prove me wrong.

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 4:03 PM
So they are multiplicative? Not additive?

Example 1:
100 Damage
26% Temp (Primary) + 24% Buff Resis timer (Primary) = 50% Primary Resis
30% AoM9 + 30% EM5 = 60% Secondary Resis

100 Dmg reduced by Primary 50% (50 Dmg) = 50 Dmg
50 Dmg reduced by Secondary 60% (30 Dmg) = 20 Dmg
100 Dmg - 80 Dmg = 20 Dmg -> Reduction of effectively 80% (50% Primary + 60% Secondary)

Example2:
26% Temp (Primary) = 26% Primary Resis
30% AoM9 + 30% EM5 = 60% Secondary Resis

100 Dmg reduced by Primary 26% (26 Dmg) = 74 Dmg
74 Dmg reduced by Secondary 60% (~44 Dmg) = ~30 Dmg (rounded down)
100 Dmg - 70 dmg = 30 Dmg -> Reduction of effectively 70% (26% Primary + 60% Secondary)

Example 3:
0% Temp (Primary) = 0% Primary Resis
30% AoM9 + 30% EM5 = 60% Secondary Resis

100 Dmg reduced by Primary 0% (0 Dmg) = 100 Dmg
100 Dmg reduced by Secondary 60% (60 Dmg) = 40 Dmg
100 Dmg - 60 dmg = 40 Dmg -> Reduction of effectively 60% (0% Primary + 60% Secondary)

Rule of thump:
Your Secondary Resistance is effectively reduced by your Primary Resistance.
The more/higher your Primary is, the less effective is your secondary... and vica versa.

(This only applies to Damage calculation. You obviously want high Primary Resis for higher Resis Rates and shorter CC/Dbf Durations)

Mon 7 Dec 2020 4:11 PM by Stoertebecker

Kyuss25 wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 1:14 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 12:05 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:31 AM
AoM 7 = 20%, EM 1= 10% , that works even on a hunter. I have AoM 5, and that alone has more value for me than ip4 (compared to ip3).
It also increase the chance to resist an effect.

Sadly AoM has 0 effect on Resist Rates.
Primary Resists are used for Resist calculations (or durations), with AoM being a secondary Resistance, it is only considered when calculating Damage and nothing else.
Other than that, i agree with you.

With a regular Temp, all Resists being around 26%, AoM7+EM1 would "effectively" add another 22%.
Which results in a 48% Damage reduction to all DoTs (+proccs/DD/etc.),

IP 4+5 adds approx. 600 HP for 15 points.
For the same amount one could get AoM5 + EM1 (in total 22% secondary resists).
I can't see why this should be more effective. Maybe somebody can enlighten me?

You have AoM the whole time as a passive, not just once each 15 mins And you still have Ip3.
Last not but not least, this 600 hp for 15 points is cut in half if you fight assassins...300 hp more each 15 mins for 7/15 ra points.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 4:40 PM by DJ2000

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 4:03 PM
From the feelings it has a minimal effect, it feels like resisting more. But 1 from ten or 1,2 from 10 is irrelevant.

I`m not sure, wasn`t there a grab bag about AoM where Mythic stated that it is a bit buggy and just 1 point in AoM should trigger the effect like it should?

I wasn't sure how Phoenix handles it, that is why i tested this back in March/April.
I did a Forum post about it too, no clue where it is now. too hard to search anything in this forum. But i try to look for it again.
Long story short: It ONLY affects damage calculation. Does not affect Resis rates, or Durations sadly.

EDIT, found it:
I did several tests on Phoenix just recently.
Result:
Avoidance of Magic does not ...
- increase or decrease the duration of any Form of magic based CC Spells (Mezz, Root, Snare, Stun)
- increase or decrease the duration of Spells with mixed Damage+CC Components (DD/Snare, AoE DD/Snare)
- increase or decrease the duration of magic based DoT Spells, Procs or Charges.
- increase or decrease the duration of magic based Debuff Spells, Procs or Charges, nor the Value/Strength of it.
- increase or decrease the duration or Damage Values of Realm Abilities. (Static, NM, VP, TWF, Ichor)
- increase or decrease the Damage aspects of Siege Warfare. (Treb, Cata, Pallin, Oil)
- increase or decrease the Damage of Melee or Archery Attacks, nor the duration of their CC components (Stun, Snare, Root)
- increase or decrease the Damage Values of Damage Add or Auras by Procs, Charges, Spells, or Styles.
- increase or decrease Resist Rate of the above.

Avoidance of Magic will do ... (regardless if by Player or NPC)
- decrease all Damage Values of all magic based Spells, Procs and Charges with Damage Components (DD, AoE DD, AoE GT DD, PB AoE DD)
- decrease all Damage Values of all magic based Spells with mixed Components (DD/Snare, AoE DD/Snare, DD/Life leech, DD/Mana leech)
- decrease all Damage Values of all magic based Spells, Procs and Charges with a duration (DoT, AoE DoT)
- decrease all Damage Values of all Melee (or Archery) attacks that cause Bleed, DD or DoT.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 5:14 PM by Stoertebecker

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 4:40 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 4:03 PM
From the feelings it has a minimal effect, it feels like resisting more. But 1 from ten or 1,2 from 10 is irrelevant.

I`m not sure, wasn`t there a grab bag about AoM where Mythic stated that it is a bit buggy and just 1 point in AoM should trigger the effect like it should?
I wasn't sure how Phoenix handles it, that is why i tested this back in March/April.
I did a Forum post about it too, no clue where it is now. too hard to search anything in this forum. But i try to look for it again.
Long story short: It ONLY affects damage calculation. Does not affect Resis rates, or Durations sadly.

EDIT, found it:
I did several tests on Phoenix just recently.
Result:
Avoidance of Magic does not ...
- increase or decrease the duration of any Form of magic based CC Spells (Mezz, Root, Snare, Stun)
- increase or decrease the duration of Spells with mixed Damage+CC Components (DD/Snare, AoE DD/Snare)
- increase or decrease the duration of magic based DoT Spells, Procs or Charges.
- increase or decrease the duration of magic based Debuff Spells, Procs or Charges, nor the Value/Strength of it.
- increase or decrease the duration or Damage Values of Realm Abilities. (Static, NM, VP, TWF, Ichor)
- increase or decrease the Damage aspects of Siege Warfare. (Treb, Cata, Pallin, Oil)
- increase or decrease the Damage of Melee or Archery Attacks, nor the duration of their CC components (Stun, Snare, Root)
- increase or decrease the Damage Values of Damage Add or Auras by Procs, Charges, Spells, or Styles.
- increase or decrease Resist Rate of the above.

Avoidance of Magic will do ... (regardless if by Player or NPC)
- decrease all Damage Values of all magic based Spells, Procs and Charges with Damage Components (DD, AoE DD, AoE GT DD, PB AoE DD)
- decrease all Damage Values of all magic based Spells with mixed Components (DD/Snare, AoE DD/Snare, DD/Life leech, DD/Mana leech)
- decrease all Damage Values of all magic based Spells, Procs and Charges with a duration (DoT, AoE DoT)
- decrease all Damage Values of all Melee (or Archery) attacks that cause Bleed, DD or DoT.

Very interesting stuff

Well, it`s Phoenix, here is nearly nothing untouched compared to the original values. Some stuff for the better, some for the worse.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 5:15 PM by Noashakra

Guys get your fact straight.
EtM is additive to primary resists, like the buffs.
AoM is secondary, and is applied after primaries...

And yeah they don't increase resist rate, decrease debuff values, etc. It's just pure magic damage resistance.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 6:39 PM by skipari

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 5:15 PM
Guys get your fact straight.
EtM is additive to primary resists, like the buffs.
AoM is secondary, and is applied after primaries...

And yeah they don't increase resist rate, decrease debuff values, etc. It's just pure magic damage resistance.

Source?

I assume with EtM you mean "the empty mind", afair 1.65 changed that to have buff+items as primary, and all RA based one as secondary.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 7:27 PM by Noashakra

skipari wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 6:39 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 5:15 PM
Guys get your fact straight.
EtM is additive to primary resists, like the buffs.
AoM is secondary, and is applied after primaries...

And yeah they don't increase resist rate, decrease debuff values, etc. It's just pure magic damage resistance.

Source?

I assume with EtM you mean "the empty mind", afair 1.65 changed that to have buff+items as primary, and all RA based one as secondary.

You are right, they are both secondaries.
I should have got my facts straights xD.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:05 PM by Nheryn

Poor assassins... They don't need to be nerf

you can have interesting fights with them in 1vs1

Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:13 PM by Stoertebecker

Nheryn wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:05 PM
Poor assassins... They don't need to be nerf you can have interesting fights with them in 1vs1

For sure, if they don`t have viper 5, not swapping with each swing, don`t use ahk and vanish is down

Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:30 PM by Nheryn

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:13 PM
For sure, if they don`t have viper 5, not swapping with each swing, don`t use ahk and vanish is down

Lol ! that would be boring if they have nothing.. ^^
You need to make a hero <3 you will appreciate killing them <3

Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:23 AM by Splusse

If the staff wanted to make an adjustment to assassins that would make them more challenging to play, they'd just have to disable /switch for them. It would provide an indirect nerf and increase their skill-ceiling to achieve maximum DPS. Having seen the DOL version of /switch, I know it would be a trivial change. I think we can conclude they are performing at the level staff expect them to be performing at.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 2:17 AM by gromet12

Why not just apply the same "fix" to the debuffs that Champs received? WS/Con debuff not as effective against potion buffs along with weapon proc/alchemy items getting the same reduction in debuffs vs potions. WS/con debuff shouldn't even be here, it was designed for a system that allows 10% dmg/10% style/10% WS buffs (from styles) etc etc. If its a self buffing class or grouped with base/specs, then like the champ let it debuff full value.

If it was too OP on a champ to get full value debuff while solo vs potion buffs...then all stat buffs (and fix the resist debuffs as well) should get this fix

Tue 8 Dec 2020 3:11 AM by Hedien

Splusse wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:23 AM
If the staff wanted to make an adjustment to assassins that would make them more challenging to play, they'd just have to disable /switch for them. It would provide an indirect nerf and increase their skill-ceiling to achieve maximum DPS. Having seen the DOL version of /switch, I know it would be a trivial change. I think we can conclude they are performing at the level staff expect them to be performing at.

That's interesting.

It is technically not a nerf, because the mechanism and potential is still available and if we have someone really capable (not me) he can actually deliver.
But it makes it much harder to achieve conveniently.

It could be easily tested and reverted if that problematic.

Sat/Faturday.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 7:48 AM by Saroi

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 2:17 AM
Why not just apply the same "fix" to the debuffs that Champs received? WS/Con debuff not as effective against potion buffs along with weapon proc/alchemy items getting the same reduction in debuffs vs potions. WS/con debuff shouldn't even be here, it was designed for a system that allows 10% dmg/10% style/10% WS buffs (from styles) etc etc. If its a self buffing class or grouped with base/specs, then like the champ let it debuff full value.

If it was too OP on a champ to get full value debuff while solo vs potion buffs...then all stat buffs (and fix the resist debuffs as well) should get this fix

It's because Champion debuffs have been increased on buffed targets. That is something they did in Beta and now tuned it down vs. potion buffs. So basically they reversed a buff they did.

So if you do what you suggest to every proc etc, it will be a bigger nerf cause they did not have their value upped before.

Wed 9 Dec 2020 7:41 PM by Stoertebecker

Nheryn wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:30 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:13 PM
For sure, if they don`t have viper 5, not swapping with each swing, don`t use ahk and vanish is down

Lol ! that would be boring if they have nothing.. ^^
You need to make a hero <3 you will appreciate killing them <3

That wouldn`t be boring, they still could fight classes for which they were designed and not as a class that is able to beat mostly all.

We know that most assassins don`t search equal fights and are avoiding each other if possible.
If they have 2 targets, one rr6 warrior and a rr7 hunter, you know for which they`d go for.

Wed 9 Dec 2020 9:19 PM by Tashkent

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 7:41 PM
We know that most assassins don`t search equal fights and are avoiding each other if possible.
If they have 2 targets, one rr6 warrior and a rr7 hunter, you know for which they`d go for.

If there are 2 targets, one rr6 hero/arms/reaver/champ/vw/pally/merc/bm/theu/cab/sorc/ench/necro and a rr11 ns/inf, I know for who I'd go for.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 7:17 AM by Hedien

@Dev is this topic discussed amongst you?

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 9:09 AM by Hedien

Example of fight:
- Got PA for 405+15 DA + debuff ws/const applied ( 780 dmg total)
- Numb him (the NS) 23 + 15 dmg ( 38 damage on him)
- 2hander hit 156 + 38 (192 dmg total 230 on him).
- Hits me for 72 dmg then DD me for 49 dmg dot tick at 96 dmg + one effect resisted on me and one parry. ( 220 dmg on me total taken 1000)
- bleed for 5 then hit him for 100 + 142 instant dd (dmg 242 total dished out 470 on him),
- Double parry/block from me.
- Evade from him.
- Hit my leg 136 proc 48 dot 96 bleed 9. (damage 280 total take 1280)
- Block and hit my leg for 45 (total taken 1325)
- Revenge perfectly 129 + 25 - debuff attack speed on but resist proc debuff d/q or energy. (170 dmg on him total dished out 640)
- Hit my torse and debuff str - 131 (total taken 1,410)
- He evades.
- potion heal of 216 hp (got lucky no disease)
- DD and dot 54 + 96 (150 total taken 1570)
- Legion heal to myself 252. (got lucky no disease)
- Bleeding for 12 dmg (total taken 1582)
- Melee hit 169 + 56 + proc 49 (270 total taken 1850)
- I hit him 97+25 (total dished out 760)
- I parry.
- I take 45 + 96 dot/dd damage ( total taken 1990)
- I dish out 125 in melee (total dished out 885)
- Magical damage of 55 (total taken of 2040)
- Leg and torso hit 104 + 45 (total taken 2200)
- I deal 150 dmg (total dished out 1020)
- Magical dmg 47 + 96 (total taken 2350)
- I block.
- I take 50 magical dmg (total taken 2400)
- He evades.
- I take 50 dmg (total taken 2450)
- I block and parry.
- I deal 140 (total dished out 1150)
- 88 DD, 77 + 48 hit melee, 97 + 20 something else (total taken 2,750)

And then I had a work call, and daoc closed, and I could not keep showing.
Basically, I died with IP used and he finished at 35%.
I made no mistake (numb to avoid CD), did revenge and even got lucky for the lack of disease.

At this stage of the fight, even if you remove PA entirely. I would have taken 1k600 more than I would have dealt. Okay, Thane is underpowered... but that much?

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 10:35 AM by DJ2000

I remember that you play your Thane quite active. With active i mean you actually do stuff like switching/positioning/kiting/non-stick etc.

It seems you switched from active RA to passive ones? AoM is on you, as the DoT numbers suggest and moParryy/Block seems as well.
But i seem to miss Purge/IP in that fight.

I do have similar experiences as a Thane, but honestly the performance of my Thane is all over the place. There are Times just everything works out and i spank whatever is in front of me, and times i feel like every ability i press is a "you Lose" option.

Obviously you don't want to get hit with a PA, but that is not something that can be avoided at all times.
The CD on the other hand can be avoided as you even mentioned, but i usually don't even try to avoid it - that is my playstyle when playing Tank/hybrid.
I want to get rid of all the DoTs/debuffs+stun (getting stun immu) asap, so i take the CD and Purge+Legion+pot right after (maybe even IP).
So its on the Assassin to reapply his stuff, while i try to get "my" winning scenario as Thane (stun/Static/DD+Melee) going with -->
Slam (->will be purged which is what i want, as numb will be not) into snare into static and slam again.
[i want him to decide if he wants re-apply his poisons or get out of danger]
As Gear i focused on capping swing speed (the fastest hammers and shield) when opening the fight, no point going for debuff procs as i am trying to force a purge.

Is this a winning strat? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Some vanish, some don't have purge, some don't reapply and fight "naked". Sometimes every swing of mine is a miss/evade. (ignoring the Adds on either side) Success/Performance is all over the place to be honest.
But this is what i do. I go in with a plan i want to accomplish, and try to force decisions that either keep him in "my" winning scenario with static or make him not melee/poison me anymore so i can DD.
If structures are involved that can break LoS for my DD, then i usually simply disengage, as DD are 50% of my Thane's power that would get denied.

Is this what you should do? idk
Can i do this without purge? i rather not
Would i like to avoid PA and CD altogether? Yes, definitely. But if it can't be avoided i have to use/include it in my strat somehow.
But what i do know is this: Enemy RR matters little if the fight goes as i want it to be.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 11:24 AM by Hedien

Passive: moblock 5, moparry 7, aom/aug const/toughness/mopain 3, mofocus 2
Active: ip/purge 3, st

That's very very standard.
The fight finished by me using purge and then ip.
Still lost at 30%.

Then I redid a fight, same thing but with bs and me using uniquely 2hander. lost again. While using ip purge.

I am sorry to say, it is not an RA, playstyle issue anymore. This is just NS being too strong. Not just strong, too strong.

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 11:43 AM by Noashakra

Or maybe it's your class that can't counter asn well. You have the DD advantage vs visi, but in the end you are an hybrid, and you can't use that vs asn at close range.
Savage get his ass kicked by everything 1vs1, can they say that X is too strong?
But also, you take brainstorm, maybe the best NS player on the server as an example, who has what on top, 25/27 more realm points more than you?

I lost every fight I did vs Loan. Therefore, Thane is OP and too strong. Same logic.

If they have 2 targets, one rr6 warrior and a rr7 hunter, you know for which they`d go for.

I would go for the one that can't add me at 2000 range and that I can kill quicker because the other will surely add.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:27 PM by Zonartica

At some point you just have to accept that you're just bad, you don't know how to play your class, and instead of improving yourself you spend your time adding good fights and creating a controversy over nightshades. You just wanna assemble a bunch of idiots who can't see beyond their noses.

It is not by doing what you do that you will improve on the contrary.

To conclude, assassins are very well balanced and do not have to be modified, they have their weak points and can also do brilliantly. Some enemies in front play very well and are able to get us very easily.

Brainstorm

Thu 10 Dec 2020 2:48 PM by Hedien

Zonartica wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:27 PM
You spend your time adding good fights and creating a controversy over nightshades.

This is personal to you.

Because you pm in disc when I kill you fair and square to point out excuse. (my favorite "I saw a troll behind so I took the st tick"

You require me to disengage when add, when you don't disengage yourself and kill me. (twice)
When I don't disengage to follow your standard (once), you insult and block me on disc.
Then you unblock me and lie saying you never block me.
Then you block again and say "you are on my add list".

You are a good player, but a tad unstable.

I analyzed our fights. If you are representative of good assassin, you dealt 45% physical and 55% magical, with aom 3 already. Meaning against nightshade in general, stacking aom is just better or on par with moparry.

You are right at one point, I don't use my st properly with you. I need to find a way to guarantee a snare without doing latency exploit (which is ugly and circumstantially not convenient with my 200 ms latency). This would increase my odds significantly.

You and some players really cross a lot. With my 200 ms latency, I cannot avoid it and it reduce my avoidance and survivability/damage after reactives. I would if I could.

I am actually asking a lot of questions on the forum / disc to better understand mechanics.
Just read Noa a few post earlier, even if we disagree on forum, we have been exchanging a lot of ideas.

But here, regardless of what you say against me personally, there is a concept: with a 15 min long CD, you sometime have 30%-40% of your hp left. This is not right.
Players like Gotmag and Yarna that are good players and not "filthy adders like me" have also stated the same, that assassin are too strong and could/should see a small nerf. Just scroll posts and read for yourself.

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 3:15 PM by Kwall0311

Change enervating back to its original state. Wasnt that a big thing people were on about?

Thu 10 Dec 2020 5:44 PM by Zonartica

Yarna kill me 80% of the time with his reaver. Snoke killed me 90-100% of the time with his game and all RA up. Just learn to play that sit, and stop need a nerf.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 11:36 PM by Hedien

Zonartica wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 5:44 PM
Yarna kill me 80% of the time with his reaver. Snoke killed me 90-100% of the time with his game and all RA up. Just learn to play that sit, and stop need a nerf.

Reaver OP 1v1. I know for a fact, I was the 1st 10L reaver of the server who mainly played solo AND played in the 8man that frequently beat DD.
Saying this class can beat you so all is fine...well, it is just invalid.

You mention Snoke - yes, this also what this post is about. You type Snoke the joke in google, and you watch the fight:
- Does he leverage latency to snare to guarantee a st tick? Yes, repeatedly? Yes. This is part of the game because of coding/network limitations and player abuse. I am against it. Did we mention it 5 times in this post? Yes.
- Does he have mainly active RA? Yes, IP 4 FA 2 etc. (see end of the video) Leading to a playstyle @ 15 min, which sucks. Was it mentioned earlier in this post? Yes.

Just going to apply your standards, if you don't read past posts and simply repeat the same stuff, I am just going to ignore your comments.

Sat/Faturday

Fri 11 Dec 2020 12:01 AM by boridi

https://i.imgur.com/CZLaoSz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/YzNAiKO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pePYPMp.jpg

Smoked an RR8 inf on my RR4 zerk. Nerf light tanks. PM me for tips.

Fri 11 Dec 2020 12:37 AM by Kwall0311

I dont think reflex attack classes are a good representation of rank vs high rank sneaks. Alot of what ifs in here. I want to see the fights where shit doesnt get resisted. To many times you see a fight that someone posted and WS/Con was never re applied or resisted. Not sure some people know how impactful that debuff is.

Fri 11 Dec 2020 12:49 AM by Hedien

boridi wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Dec 2020 12:01 AM
https://i.imgur.com/CZLaoSz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/YzNAiKO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pePYPMp.jpg

Smoked an RR8 inf on my RR4 zerk. Nerf light tanks. PM me for tips.

Based on the holy power of anecdote:
- "See? Can do it. Nerf thane, boost ns"
- "Brainstorm does not know how to play."
- " 1,600 rp?? nerf solo rp!"
- [autoderision] "See? Faturday only do solo and never adds!"

All of the above statement can be concluded from this image. None of them is true when averaged with total event population.
And yes... reflex attack class combined with anecdote is even worse...

Sat/Faturday.

Fri 11 Dec 2020 12:56 AM by boridi

Hedien wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Dec 2020 12:49 AM
boridi wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Dec 2020 12:01 AM
https://i.imgur.com/CZLaoSz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/YzNAiKO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pePYPMp.jpg

Smoked an RR8 inf on my RR4 zerk. Nerf light tanks. PM me for tips.

Based on the holy power of anecdote:
- "See? Can do it. Nerf thane, boost ns"
- "Brainstorm does not know how to play."
- " 1,600 rp?? nerf solo rp!"
- [autoderision] "See? Faturday only do solo and never adds!"

All of the above statement can be concluded from this image. None of them is true when averaged with total event population.
And yes... reflex attack class combined with anecdote is even worse...

Sat/Faturday.

Well, my zerk only has reflex attack 1, and it didnt go off in that fight.

A few minutes later, I killed an RR7 NS at glen docks. He got off perf/CD, and I purged the CD. Ended at 10% health. Both fights I got off Frosty Gaze... otherwise result might have been different. NS purged frosty gaze, but the inf in the screenshots did not.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 1:30 AM by Hedien

Just another fight against Exo NS 11L for the record:
- I am getting BS. (yes I zigzag.. not enough)
- I slam : no purge, cast x3.
- We fight : revenge / lambast go off nicely.
- At 10%, I use purge ip 3 heart potion. (= full hp)
- I use st.
- target runs, successful conquer.
- target takes tick. slam.
- target purge, but somehow comes back for another tick right after. (mistake from him)
- slam and 3 cast again.
- we continue to fight, I take too much damage and die with target at 20%.

And Exo does not cross or circle straff. (thanks mate, that's nice!)
Huh, hello? Do you still think it is correct?

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 4:01 AM by Eckso

In my defense Faturday, my Nightshade is specced and RA built to fight tanks, specifically hybrids like Reavers and Thanes.

I thought you had me when I purged second slam, but didnt kite far enough out of ST.

I'm sure you'll get me one day, soon as I miss backstab or perf engage.
Cheers
-Exo

Thu 17 Dec 2020 7:20 AM by Blitze

Wow faturday...

I can’t believe you lost that fight.

No stealth should be able to survive two full slams...
(To be honest only warr/arms/hero should...)

The kicker is being able to survive two full slams and still do enough damage to remove two thane life bars. ~4000 hp.

Wow

Thu 17 Dec 2020 8:50 AM by Hedien

Blitze wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 7:20 AM
Wow faturday...

I can’t believe you lost that fight.

No stealth should be able to survive two full slams...
(To be honest only warr/arms/hero should...)

The kicker is being able to survive two full slams and still do enough damage to remove two thane life bars. ~4000 hp.

Wow

Exactly my point. The warrior watching beside me during that fight was "what the fuck, this is not right".

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:02 AM by Lilou07

I tend to agree that with the /switch mechanic and AHK available here the dmg dealt by NS/info/Sb are too important.

Fight with lot of them with differents classes and the speed you die is quite something.
But that's mainly due to the poison mechanic combined to viper 5.
I think a /switch modification as stated before or a change in the poison reapply mechanic would be a fair adjustment.

But before you scream to nerf I would ask you a question brainstorm, Eriel, the rabbin etc.
Yes you are good player and a lot of time you play quit perfectly. But what do you lose at 1v1 ?
What is your duel winrate out there ? Because I am sure is more around 90% than 60. ( And you also can pick you fight and vanish if needed )
Ofc it is nice, but if you can't see the problem here then..

Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:09 AM by WildWilbur

So a asn who is 3 RRs above you, RA specced exactly to fight your class, experienced in doing so, luckily opening with a BS dares to beat you and that isn't right? That rngeesus was on his side this ONE fight doesn't matter - a few less evades, a few more blocks/parries of you and he would have lost - but hey, he is an asn and he simple has to be your RP fodder?

Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:11 AM by gotwqqd

WildWilbur wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:09 AM
So a asn who is 3 RRs above you, RA specced exactly to fight your class, experienced in doing so, luckily opening with a BS dares to beat you and that isn't right? That rngeesus was on his side this ONE fight doesn't matter - a few less evades, a few more blocks/parries of you and he would have lost - but hey, he is an asn and he simple has to be your RP fodder?

Luckily opening with a backstab....yea right....imagine if it was perf.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:32 AM by Hedien

WildWilbur wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:09 AM
So a asn who is 3 RRs above you, RA specced exactly to fight your class, experienced in doing so, luckily opening with a BS dares to beat you and that isn't right? That rngeesus was on his side this ONE fight doesn't matter - a few less evades, a few more blocks/parries of you and he would have lost - but hey, he is an asn and he simple has to be your RP fodder?

I guess you fail to understand that it is not "luckily". Engage success rate is above 80% against me.
I am 9L5 so he is 2 RR above, with FA 2 which was useless in our fight, so really 1.5 RR difference.

And he does not have a spec against tank. I talked to Exo on disc (thanks mate for sharing), spec against tank means:
- He uses triple dot.
- Engage BS because it is better than PA to apply more dot and bypass parry/block avoidance. (so here you now understand that it was not favorable for me compared to PA)

This is not really "spec" against hybrid tank in my books, it is just a weapon choice with a style choice. Which is not bad at all against most other targets ...

Even if most casters and support classes are in fact assassin rp fodder and it is widely accepted, I am not asking for that. I am asking for a fair advantage when I use a 15 min CD and accept to be their RP fodder when this timer is done. (fair right?)

2 slams 6 casts and one IP later, I die with 20% left on target without bad luck with rng (only 1 evade), I ask the question back to you: are all other classes supposed to be assassin RP fodder?

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:33 AM by Hedien

Lilou07 wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:02 AM
But before you scream to nerf I would ask you a question brainstorm, Eriel, the rabbin etc.
Yes you are good player and a lot of time you play quit perfectly. But what do you lose at 1v1 ?
What is your duel winrate out there ? Because I am sure is more around 90% than 60. ( And you also can pick you fight and vanish if needed )
Ofc it is nice, but if you can't see the problem here then..

Nicely said. This is not balanced.
Checked top 10 rp on hib last week, 4 are nightshades. It is a very very comfortable performance for a solo class, especially with such high rank suffering from diminishing returns.

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 11:05 AM by Noashakra

Fight with lot of them with differents classes and the speed you die is quite something.
But that's mainly due to the poison mechanic combined to viper 5.
I think a /switch modification as stated before or a change in the poison reapply mechanic would be a fair adjustment.

1) Exo doesn't play with viper
2) it's already the case, dot doesn't reaply with each new application, only the timer resets and it waits for the next tick.

Checked top 10 rp on hib last week, 4 are nightshades. It is a very very comfortable performance for a solo class, especially with such high rank suffering from diminishing returns.

Infiweib was top 1 server in rp/week, with over one million, and his rp/h was around 10/12k an hour...
Those people are just huge players with 10/12h of play per day, it has nothing to do with the power of the class...

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:11 AM
WildWilbur wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:09 AM
So a asn who is 3 RRs above you, RA specced exactly to fight your class, experienced in doing so, luckily opening with a BS dares to beat you and that isn't right? That rngeesus was on his side this ONE fight doesn't matter - a few less evades, a few more blocks/parries of you and he would have lost - but hey, he is an asn and he simple has to be your RP fodder?
Luckily opening with a backstab....yea right....imagine if it was perf.

You do know most player don't want to perf shield tanks because players will slam or numb them to avoid the stun?
Of course you don't

This is not really "spec" against hybrid tank in my books, it is just a weapon choice with a style choice. Which is not bad at all against most other targets ...

He is nerfing his damage with pierce vs inf/sb with perf, but will do 15% more dmg than me with blade vs you.

I told you make a video, because fight logs don't show most of the stuff that happen during a fight.
You tell us you played perfectly, but we have only your word on that.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 11:19 AM by keen

There are many players that play a lot lot,not just assassins. The ones who are overrepresented at the top are assassins for a reason. You bypass completely the need of grping in an MMORPG and you are being rewarded for it by having the highest rp/h.
It's too easy to farm rps for assassins in comparison to grp chars.
My suggestion still is: They can fight each other all day, but should lose in most cases Vs visible characters (including casters etc. There should be no free lunch for stealth players)
This would make them still fight 25% of the server population. Makes it in line with what other chars need to do to gain rps.
There should be no fast track for arch types that do not participate in visible rvr and separate from others via stealth abilities.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 12:34 PM by gromet12

Just remove the /swap macro from the game and watch how much those skilled sins drop off in the frontiers.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 1:15 PM by DJ2000

I don't think you will find many defenders here for the /switch command.
If anything that might be the most agreeable "suggestion" anyone has brought up in this thread.
It raises the barrier to be an "efficient" Assassin, just as the skill ceiling for that kind of playstyle (swapping Weapons).
Will harm lower R-ranked (lesser experienced/dedicated) Assassin players more than the higher R-ranked ones.
Which also will push other ... lets say "dirty tricks"... to stay above the curve back into their playstyles.

(Would also hit all "anti-Assassins" Blademasters and Mercenarys, just sayin...)

Thu 17 Dec 2020 7:01 PM by Nephamael

The problem is stealthers are the only viable classes you can play solo on Phoenix during most daytimes. Before we have any considerable and effective visible solo QOL on this server it would only hurt solo players to nerf assassins.

Right now SB/Inf/Ns are the strongest class you can play solo vs most enemies you will encounter. - If there is some day visible solo QOL i would agree on tuning dps of assassins a little bit down or make them more squishy - currently a solo caster has 0% winrate vs being perfed and the assassin purging and maybe 15% winrate vs the assassin not perfing and purging. there is almost no counterplay to the high dps + disease + snare spam.
This is while an assassin can kill a caster faster than a caster free nuking can kill an assassin (due to HP rework). And with the high vanish rate on top if things go well for the caster once... but lets not start with this

-
Here is my suggestion to make the solo play more enjoyable at least for 6 classes instead of only 3:

Rangers and Hunters need evade 4!

Scouts need selfbuffs in their melee spec (slash/thrust). And maybe also a stronger evade on top.

Also giving Hunters Rangers and Scouts the ability to spec physical defense seems very viable to me, even if they get it on top of evade4 i think winrates will still favor assassins.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 11:35 PM by bculpepper

I've been watching this thread but haven't commented yet. I wanted to see for myself how assassins perform before commenting.

During the most recent event I leveled a nightshade to 50/RR3. After the event, I put together a decent template. Weaponless - but not maxxing all the resists. Just the important ones. I've been playing for a couple of weeks now and have some conclusions.

Frankly, its embarrassing how overpowered the class is. As a RR3 I was able to take down any caster without a challenge. I also had great success against everything from RR9 Thanes to RR8 Mercs and came very close on a RR8 Armsman.

I put together a video compilation just to show how crazy this is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Fri 18 Dec 2020 4:07 AM by gotwqqd

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 11:05 AM
Fight with lot of them with differents classes and the speed you die is quite something.
But that's mainly due to the poison mechanic combined to viper 5.
I think a /switch modification as stated before or a change in the poison reapply mechanic would be a fair adjustment.

1) Exo doesn't play with viper
2) it's already the case, dot doesn't reaply with each new application, only the timer resets and it waits for the next tick.

Checked top 10 rp on hib last week, 4 are nightshades. It is a very very comfortable performance for a solo class, especially with such high rank suffering from diminishing returns.

Infiweib was top 1 server in rp/week, with over one million, and his rp/h was around 10/12k an hour...
Those people are just huge players with 10/12h of play per day, it has nothing to do with the power of the class...

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:11 AM
WildWilbur wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 10:09 AM
So a asn who is 3 RRs above you, RA specced exactly to fight your class, experienced in doing so, luckily opening with a BS dares to beat you and that isn't right? That rngeesus was on his side this ONE fight doesn't matter - a few less evades, a few more blocks/parries of you and he would have lost - but hey, he is an asn and he simple has to be your RP fodder?
Luckily opening with a backstab....yea right....imagine if it was perf.

You do know most player don't want to perf shield tanks because players will slam or numb them to avoid the stun?
Of course you don't

This is not really "spec" against hybrid tank in my books, it is just a weapon choice with a style choice. Which is not bad at all against most other targets ...

He is nerfing his damage with pierce vs inf/sb with perf, but will do 15% more dmg than me with blade vs you.

I told you make a video, because fight logs don't show most of the stuff that happen during a fight.
You tell us you played perfectly, but we have only your word on that.

My experience is perf=stun
I can know a stun is coming and 9/10 I cannot fit in a style.
Latency makes it almost guaranteed.

Fri 18 Dec 2020 4:08 AM by Taniquetil

bculpepper wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 11:35 PM
As a RR3 I was able to take down any caster without a challenge. I also had great success against everything from RR9 Thanes to RR8 Mercs and came very close on a RR8 Armsman.

I put together a video compilation just to show how crazy this is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Fri 18 Dec 2020 7:32 AM by WildWilbur

bculpepper wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Dec 2020 11:35 PM
I've been watching this thread but haven't commented yet. I wanted to see for myself how assassins perform before commenting.

During the most recent event I leveled a nightshade to 50/RR3. After the event, I put together a decent template. Weaponless - but not maxxing all the resists. Just the important ones. I've been playing for a couple of weeks now and have some conclusions.

Frankly, its embarrassing how overpowered the class is. As a RR3 I was able to take down any caster without a challenge. I also had great success against everything from RR9 Thanes to RR8 Mercs and came very close on a RR8 Armsman.

I put together a video compilation just to show how crazy this is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

LOL, that was way before the last ASN patch as strafing was a thing. You clearly can see this on the way Backstab is shown here: https://youtu.be/oHg5SJYRHA0?t=10

Fri 18 Dec 2020 9:07 AM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Dec 2020 4:07 AM
My experience is perf=stun
I can know a stun is coming and 9/10 I cannot fit in a style.
Latency makes it almost guaranteed.

lamo this explains a lot.
if you can't react in 1.5s, latency isn't the problem

Combine that with parry/block/evade/miss if you can't land the stun, when you just have to turn around...
if you get stunned 9 times out of 10, you should ask yourself if you are not the real problem.

Fri 18 Dec 2020 6:53 PM by Siouxsie

Basically we have a class of 'leet' players who know how to spec and do the right RAs as well as know what procs to put on armor/weaps.. but won't divulge any of the info.. so you have like 5-6 of them racking up most of the points, while the other stealthers flounder.

What does a spec/RA/reactives/procs readout look like for an assassin aiming to kill hybrids/tanks look like?
Ablatives and Damage add reactives? Aug strength 9? Mastery of Arms 9?

Someone said Exo doesn't do viper 5.. OK, but what's the alternative? Most assassins rely on Viper to finish off their opponent.

Fri 18 Dec 2020 9:16 PM by Stoertebecker

Tashkent wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 9:19 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 7:41 PM
We know that most assassins don`t search equal fights and are avoiding each other if possible.
If they have 2 targets, one rr6 warrior and a rr7 hunter, you know for which they`d go for.

If there are 2 targets, one rr6 hero/arms/reaver/champ/vw/pally/merc/bm/theu/cab/sorc/ench/necro and a rr11 ns/inf, I know for who I'd go for.

Via Hunter-Vanish to Godrborg?

Sat 19 Dec 2020 1:13 AM by easytoremember

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Dec 2020 9:07 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Dec 2020 4:07 AM
My experience is perf=stun
I can know a stun is coming and 9/10 I cannot fit in a style.
Latency makes it almost guaranteed.

lamo this explains a lot.
if you can't react in 1.5s, latency isn't the problem
Combine that with parry/block/evade/miss if you can't land the stun, when you just have to turn around...
if you get stunned 9 times out of 10, you should ask yourself if you are not the real problem.

You can't do shit when the stealther pops up as creeping death lands

Sat 19 Dec 2020 1:48 AM by Hedien

You can do something when stealther pop before CD lands... IF
- You don't get evaded (34%) Miss (5% yes even with def bonus - 10 from PA) Parried (10%)
- You have a shield and can numb fast enough.
- You miraculously avoid a +15 hit style.

Yeah, that's not that straightforward. If I miss my numb, with 66% (block/parry) and whatever is the miss rate after the +15 hit. I still get CD more than 50% of the time.
If you take gotmag as a vw, or any non-shield char. Even with evade 4, good luck to not get CD, the RNG is in your defavor - and it is not a detaunt style (that you prob don't have on your bar) that will boost enough your defense sufficiently to avoid the CD.

Let's be realistic.

To answer the 2nd part, the answer is not about PA, or BS.
Exo has only like aug quick 6 arms 3 or something as DPS RA. Rest is toughness 9 aom 6. And yet, with that total absence of DPS RA, it is still 4k dmg in less than 50 sec.

I think Zrabar was mentioning it before. VIPER is powerful, but not necessary to win. I think it was demonstrated consistently by Exo here.
I do think the switch mechanism should be looked into to make it less convenient to debuff ws/const, disease, str, dot, snare 2 or 3 times per fight.

Sat/Faturday.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 2:55 AM by gotwqqd

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 1:13 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Dec 2020 9:07 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Dec 2020 4:07 AM
My experience is perf=stun
I can know a stun is coming and 9/10 I cannot fit in a style.
Latency makes it almost guaranteed.

lamo this explains a lot.
if you can't react in 1.5s, latency isn't the problem
Combine that with parry/block/evade/miss if you can't land the stun, when you just have to turn around...
if you get stunned 9 times out of 10, you should ask yourself if you are not the real problem.
You can't do shit when the stealther pops up as creeping death lands

This....there is simply no time to fit reaction in
But mr perfect thinks everyone is talentless

Sat 19 Dec 2020 3:25 AM by Hedien

I play from Singapore with 170-200ms.

And yet, I can numb after (failed) PA, it happened like 1 min ago:

So it is doable. Even if PA damage is high, I don't feel it is the issue. It is not about "gitgud" here.

Sat/Faturday

Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:55 AM by Noashakra

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 1:13 AM
You can't do shit when the stealther pops up as creeping death lands

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 2:55 AM
This....there is simply no time to fit reaction in
But mr perfect thinks everyone is talentless

Dude, there is PLENTY of time to react. Good tanks do it to me all the time. That's why people open with BS2 on a tank and not PA... Doing nearest ennemy + stun is not hard... I do it on my tanks and I often side stun with my NS.
If you can't react in 1.5s, (for a NS, SB and inf often don't cap swing speed) I have bad news from you, your skills are really lacking. And I consider myself not top of the barrel like exo or brainstorm.

I really start to think in your case, the problem is not your class, your are simply not good enough.
Stop blaming assassins for your lack of reflex people... It's time to reflect on yourselves.

"I get CD 9 times out of 10"
Me: https://ibb.co/Kb4jY2J

Sat 19 Dec 2020 10:43 AM by DJ2000

So are we now /bowtown / 1v1 everyone Arena Style?

If a Player is actually going to fight an Assassin, as in "prepared" and ready to get initiated by an Assassin, then yes: You can use Numb/Slam/xyz to react.
In every other occasion, you can not. (which is part of Assassin gameplay. The element of surprise)

I already said this before. Stop arguing about these /bowtown scenarios. They are irrelevant for general Gameplay.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 11:01 AM by Hedien

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 10:43 AM
So are we now /bowtown / 1v1 everyone Arena Style?

If a Player is actually going to fight an Assassin, as in "prepared" and ready to get initiated by an Assassin, then yes: You can use Numb/Slam/xyz to react.
In every other occasion, you can not. (which is part of Assassin gameplay. The element of surprise)

I already said this before. Stop arguing about these /bowtown scenarios. They are irrelevant for general Gameplay.

Actually, I don't even mind these scenario. I was ready in the above fight, played without mistake. Enemy played with mistakes. I used 15+10 min CD RA, enemy only purged (which was totally useless in that case as he got tick 1 sec after). And still lost...

Sat/Faturday.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 12:23 PM by Noashakra

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 10:43 AM
So are we now /bowtown / 1v1 everyone Arena Style?

If a Player is actually going to fight an Assassin, as in "prepared" and ready to get initiated by an Assassin, then yes: You can use Numb/Slam/xyz to react.
In every other occasion, you can not. (which is part of Assassin gameplay. The element of surprise)

I already said this before. Stop arguing about these /bowtown scenarios. They are irrelevant for general Gameplay.

Dude, if I play semi afk and I get perfed by another asn, the problem is not the class.
If I play with my face in front of my screen, there are no way I can't react in time in 1.5s. If you can't, I am sorry to say there is a skill gap you can't overcome, and the problem is not assassins.

This is not the problem with faturday apparently.

Try to play Apex/Pubg or any fps with this kind of relexes... best players are under 150ms reaction time. I am at 220/230. 1.5s is a huge time gap to react if you don't do something else on a second screen!
Best score out of 10 : https://ibb.co/vXJQVH9
I am under the median of the people who use this website, so I am not at all that skilled.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 12:32 PM by DJ2000

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 12:23 PM
Dude,

You should put more thoughts into anything you write, really.
Why is everyone that gets PA always semi-afk in your world?
Why would anyone bother arguing about being attacked by any class when he is semi-afk?
If someone gets jumped/surprised by an assassin, then its 100% "as intended". That is what the Class were designed to do.

How many times do i have to repeat this? If you want to talk about /bowtown/Arena Duels + balance issues, then do it elsewhere.

(No clue what apex/pubg is, but i guess there is a reason.)

Sat 19 Dec 2020 12:35 PM by Noashakra

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 12:32 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 12:23 PM
Dude,
(No clue what apex/pubg is, but i guess there is a reason.)

Yes so you are not an FPS player, where reaction time is key to win (shooting first is important).

Why is everyone that gets PA always semi-afk in your world?

You should put more thoughts into anything you write and maybe read.

"I" =/= "everyone"

If you can't react in 1.5s, you are seriously lacking in personnal skills, and it's time to question your abilities to win a fight as a shield tank, not the assassins supposed OPness.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 12:43 PM by DJ2000

I will not bother talking about FPS games, you already derailed the other thread into oblivion with such nonsense.

As i said: Why would anyone bother arguing about being attacked by any class when he is semi-afk?

As in "you", as said here: "Dude, if I play semi afk and I get perfed by another asn, the problem is not the class. "
This is not the topic here. There is no mention of this by anyone.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 12:59 PM by Noashakra

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 12:43 PM
I will not bother talking about FPS games, you already derailed the other thread into oblivion with such nonsense.

As i said: Why would anyone bother arguing about being attacked by any class when he is semi-afk?

As in "you", as said here: "Dude, if I play semi afk and I get perfed by another asn, the problem is not the class. "
This is not the topic here. There is no mention of this by anyone.

Simple, if I (as in ME) can't react in 1.5s, it's that I am doing something else.
I bring FPS because they are one of the type of game that ask for the quickest reacition time.
You need to react in less that 0.2 0.3s. Saying you people can't react in 1.5s is bollocks. If you can't, I am sorry to say but your are a low tier player and assassins are not your first problem.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 1:18 PM by DJ2000

What are you even on about? Seriously?

Let me try to make this clear.
There will be those that can react in that timeframe and there will be those that cannot react in that timeframe.
Chances are, you will be able to react to it when you know "its" coming; and less so, if you are not aware of something coming.

The Fight does not end after the 1,5sec.

The Assassin were designed to be in advantage, when the "victim" is not able to react. By Design the whole "Ability-Kit" of the Assassin class revolves around the fact that the Victim does not react.
If someone still does react in that timeframe, even when not aware of it might be happening, then you have to applaud them for their state of mind.

This topic is not about if someone "should" be able to react or not, that is in fact irrelevant.
"That" discussion should/being able to or not can go somewhere else.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 1:43 PM by Noashakra

This thread is a lot of people whinning about assassins when the real problem is their class that maybe has a bad matchup, who have not the right RA spec, and/or because they lack skill.
When someone tell me it's impossible to react in 1.5s, I know the problem is with the player, end of the story. Good players always have time to react after a PA, unless they are doing something else.

gotwqqd telling 1.5s is too shot to react and he gets the PA follow up 9 times out of 10 (when the miss rate is already 10% lol) means he has a serious lack of skill and he should fix that (when I see people like maxistoo streaming and panning with his camera with the keyboard instead of the mouse, that tells you the level of skill the average people have...) before telling on every posts that assassins are OP (as you can see on my image I posted earlier, I did a PA on a reaver and he turned around and blocked my CD, HOW DID HE DO THAT? How could he turn around to face me in 1.5 seconds :p I mean gotwqqd eats his CD stun 9 times of 10, the other guy must have mad skills lol!).
https://ibb.co/Kb4jY2J

I can tell you the same, what are you on if you can't comprehend basic stuff like this?

When I play tank, I have nearest ennemy on the left side button of the mouse, and slam on the "<" key, and I move with W and S and turn left right with the mouse. It's super easy to counter slam after a PA I don't even need 1s.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 2:08 PM by DJ2000

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 1:43 PM
This thread is a lot of people whinning about assassins when the real problem is their class that maybe has a bad matchup, who have not the right RA spec, and/or because they lack skill.

I left out the other "stuff" in the quote, as this is the only thing of value in your post.

1. There are maybe ~7 people active in this Thread, and that is maybe me even counting to high.
2. Bad Matchup ? Good, point out why it is a bad matchup to them, so they know/learn or maybe improve their understanding.
3. RA spec? Good, point out why it is a bad RA spec to them, so they know/learn or maybe improve their understanding.
4. lack of skill/tricks/reaction/crossing/strafing/1v1/whatever ? Irrelevant in class balance issues. Go somewhere else and stop derailing this thread.

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 1:43 PM
When I play tank, I have nearest ennemy on the left side button of the mouse, and slam on the "<" key, and I move with W and S and turn left right with the mouse. It's super easy to counter slam after a PA I don't even need 1s.

You keep editing your posts, "talking" with you is a chore.

But i agree, that is good advice.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 2:10 PM by Hedien

It is not only about whine. It is about class design, and overall performance.
The individual player performance will always have an important impact in daoc, you fight a natural enemy you die, you make mistakes you die, you dump RA you win.

Here we see a specific example where I am supposedly not a prey or natural enemy, I dump RA, the other player makes mistake, and the intended outcome is not there. RNG seemed average, It gets discredited because "I did not video".

This anecdote, combined with my previous observations is further backed-up by a statistical trend where hib top 10 have a significant proportion of high rank NS in top rp. Not only because of play time or skill (because heavy good players exists on other classes) but because of overall performance imbalance.

You see strong players that agree that there is an imbalance.

And you see... assassin defending their strong position.
The problem is that, the only way to defend is "gitgud" or "see I die against them so assassin is not OP". Which, you can understand, is not receivable either way.

Sat/Faturday.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 2:23 PM by Noashakra

First, I we don't dismiss you, we ask for a video to confirm.
Second, I have no problem discussing certain aspect of the game, but when someone like gotwqqd telling you how asn are OP, and now he tells us he can't slam/numb after a PA?
I can't take this person seriously when it comes about balance.

where hib top 10 have a significant proportion of high rank NS in top rp.

It's not only hib, it's all the assassins.

It's a combinaison of many things :

Assassins are the only class that can play solo on this serv without going mad, it's add after add after zerg. I know I tried on my warrior and my ministrel (no hard feeling on the ministrel, it's a shit class).
A good chunk of good players tend to go solo
Assassins are strong 1vs1, unlike archers

Sat 19 Dec 2020 2:34 PM by Blitze

Assassin Vs Thane

Should be a bad matchup for the assassin, in my opinion.

(Archers/casters should be the assassins good matchups.)

This view comes from my rose tinted memory of old daoc.

At the same RR, currently, I’d argue that assassins don’t really have any bad matchups.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 3:00 PM by Noashakra

Blitze wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 2:34 PM
Assassin Vs Thane

Should be a bad matchup for the assassin, in my opinion.

(Archers/casters should be the assassins good matchups.)

This view comes from my rose tinted memory of old daoc.

At the same RR, currently, I’d argue that assassins don’t really have any bad matchups.

Except Champion, merc, armsman, warrior, hero, blade master and reaver. Necro and BD don't count.
And when they are 6/7L with reflex attack, friar and zerk.

0% winrate vs yarna, since he is 6L
Last time I tried drunkstain, He killed me without purge and IP.

I went through one day of recordings
10Lvs10L skald, I almost lost even though he sat through the CD stun and had no IP. I also resisted the mez, so pure best case scenario.
https://streamable.com/abck22

It had only two "good" fights in 3.30h of recordings...
But yeaaaah no bad match ups for asn

keep living in lala land.

Very rich coming from a friar 10L with reflex attack, you are unkillable for an asn.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 4:03 PM by Tashkent

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 2:23 PM
Assassins are strong 1vs1, unlike archers

I can second that. There aren't many targets of equal or higher than me that I can win against. Well, except those OP assassins.

Also, it surprises me that you can't react after a PA. You can anticipate where the hunting grounds are and when an attack is imminent. The area they can cover is tiny.

Also, of course is player skill an important aspect in balance discussions. I met a rr5 champ who let me kite him and so he lost. Wouldn't say that champs need a buff from that.
When discussing class balance with examples of high rr and competent players, apply those standards to visis as well. At least a /face should be the bare minimum after taking damage.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 4:21 PM by Noashakra

Stop making sense please.

If you want a thane killing assassins way above his realm rank :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyZvH_qgfLk&ab_channel=SnokeisaJoke

5mn15s if you want to see the stun after PA... You know the impossible thing to do apparently

and he needed what, 0.2/0.3s to react?

Sat 19 Dec 2020 4:44 PM by Blitze

As a rr8 friar (completely specc for solo) I would say that I win fights against assassins now! However, at lower RRs friars do struggle against similar sneaks.

(Again my rose tinted glasses say that Friars should be one of the worst possible assassin matchups... which is okay as there is a huge list of classes Friars have 0% chance against)

Champs I agree are tough and I can’t beat low RR ones with my Friar (even after the debuff nerf).

But most reavers/thanes/skalds/warrs/arms I see are pretty equal fights against similar assas.

Also I am not saying assassins need a nerf. Just recognise they are good spot with easy weapon switch hotkeys, WS/con poison etc... and this is in part reflected in their huge weekly RP intake (alongside the fact that soloing with other classes is a nightmare)

Sat 19 Dec 2020 4:50 PM by Noashakra

Ok fair enough, I agree with almost everything you wrote.
except that after 8/9L, almost all the tanks pull ahead because of the defensive RA they can take

Sat 19 Dec 2020 5:28 PM by DJ2000

18 pages of the same thing over and over repeating itself.

No, the Assassin class is not overtuned.
Yes, the skill cap to play one effectively, thanks to the /switch command, is lower than it was before.
No, Assassins can not jump everything and everyone successfully that is actually expecting/ready/build (for) them.
Yes, they most likely succeed against anyone else not giving too much attention/effort to the Game.
No, you cannot expect to win by "Default" vs an Assassin just because you play class XYZ. You have to put some in some effort and have to Build for it.
Yes, they are very strong by design/concept in 1v1 Melee-Range Battles.
No, Melee prowess are not their main Threat, as they are build for speed (1,5 swing cap). Envenom is their main Threat.
Yes, the amount of Assassins is higher than before as Solo-Players switched to Assassins for a less stressful gaming experience in comparison to a "visi"/Archer.
No, granting Poison immunity with purge is not "balancing", as it would literally kill the class.
Yes, Skill is irrelevant when talking about class balance. You can't balance or judge anything if there is an experience gap between 2 players.
No, the Assassins or the game itself are not perfectly balanced... it never will. But the Devs doing a pretty good job afaik

Sat 19 Dec 2020 6:08 PM by Taniquetil

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 5:28 PM
You can't balance or judge anything if there is an experience gap between 2 players.

He’s disputing your claim that 1.5s to react isnt long enough.

Lets break it down:
200-300ms Ping for playing in Asia
Avg human reaction time 150-300ms

Even with such a truly unfortunate ping and for the purposes of the example the slowest reactions recorded in testing you still have at minimum 900ms additional time to react and engage your target to face them and press slam/numb.

Short story: your reaction times have to be 4x slower than even the slowest reactions in the worst ping scenario for it to not be possible to react within the 1.5sec window.

And 1.5sec is also a pipedream for many, requires heavy MOA investment and for non shadowblades requires that the offhand swings.

It is indeed long enough.

The offer has been laid out from several assassins to help demonstrate that tanks can very much beat them, no ones taken it up. That’s a friendly and helpful offer with the intent to help you enjoy the game and maybe learn/change each others opinions.

Beyond that I’m done giving this conversation oxygen.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 6:35 PM by gotwqqd

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 1:43 PM
This thread is a lot of people whinning about assassins when the real problem is their class that maybe has a bad matchup, who have not the right RA spec, and/or because they lack skill.
When someone tell me it's impossible to react in 1.5s, I know the problem is with the player, end of the story. Good players always have time to react after a PA, unless they are doing something else.

gotwqqd telling 1.5s is too shot to react and he gets the PA follow up 9 times out of 10 (when the miss rate is already 10% lol) means he has a serious lack of skill and he should fix that (when I see people like maxistoo streaming and panning with his camera with the keyboard instead of the mouse, that tells you the level of skill the average people have...) before telling on every posts that assassins are OP (as you can see on my image I posted earlier, I did a PA on a reaver and he turned around and blocked my CD, HOW DID HE DO THAT? How could he turn around to face me in 1.5 seconds :p I mean gotwqqd eats his CD stun 9 times of 10, the other guy must have mad skills lol!).
https://ibb.co/Kb4jY2J

I can tell you the same, what are you on if you can't comprehend basic stuff like this?

When I play tank, I have nearest ennemy on the left side button of the mouse, and slam on the "<" key, and I move with W and S and turn left right with the mouse. It's super easy to counter slam after a PA I don't even need 1s.

Learn to read & comprehend .....
I never said 1.5 seconds was not enough to react.

I simply do not get even .5 seconds to react due to latency/lag/my system whatever the hell it is.

Aside that, I see from attacks on myself and others that often the assassin engages for sub 5 seconds and simply runs away as the dots usually finish off the enemies.

You are simply being dishonest with yourself as you don’t want to lose your HUGE overall advantage over almost any enemy. The class can be tweaked down and they still could perform their intended job easily

Sat 19 Dec 2020 7:07 PM by DJ2000

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 6:08 PM
He’s disputing your claim that 1.5s to react isnt long enough.

Never did. I am not even going to comment the rest.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:00 PM by Noashakra

I simply do not get even .5 seconds to react due to latency/lag/my system whatever the hell it is.

Even farturday who lives in Singapour can do it, people in NA can do it, stop finding excuses...
5secs to kill a tank and let the dot do the rest? Dude stop lying, I even posted a video showing with Eowy (a skald, not a heavy tank), and I can't even finish her in 7s during the CD, she can put met at 17% after the end of the stun.

You are a bellow average player and you can't admit it.
But for the sake of arguments, let's say you are not and you have 1 second ping (lmao), the problem is with your connection, not the assassins.
it's either :

1) you
2) your connection

You can stop posting and blaming assassins now.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:07 PM by keen

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:00 PM
You are a bellow average player and you can't admit it.

And you farmed your solo title with greens to then show off with it in an online forum.
That must be the new above average.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:09 PM by Noashakra

keen wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:07 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:00 PM
You are a bellow average player and you can't admit it.
And you farmed your solo title with greens to then show off with it in an online forum.
That must be the new above average.

first it's a lie, it's not the case with my NS, I already showed it on another post.
Coming from a coast guarding adder, with 200 solo kills on his whole account, it's like a compliment !

If you want to compare skills, I am ready when you want

Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:09 PM by gotwqqd

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:00 PM
I simply do not get even .5 seconds to react due to latency/lag/my system whatever the hell it is.

Even farturday who lives in Singapour can do it, people in NA can do it, stop finding excuses...
5secs to kill a tank and let the dot do the rest? Dude stop lying, I even posted a video showing with Eowy (a skald, not a heavy tank), and I can't even finish her in 7s during the CD, she can put met at 17% after the end of the stun.

You are a bellow average player and you can't admit it.

Boy, you just fill in factors to justify your narrative.
Did I bring up tank?
I give two shits what others can do...my reaction times are fine...when I’m pretty much under stun when the assassin pops out of stealth it’s my problem. Maybe my wifi sucks, no idea.
Get off your high horse. Most assassins play the class not because of the archetype, but because it is the most powerful class available for solo play.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:53 PM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:09 PM
I give two shits what others can do...my reaction times are fine...when I’m pretty much under stun when the assassin pops out of stealth it’s my problem. Maybe my wifi sucks, no idea.
Get off your high horse. Most assassins play the class not because of the archetype, but because it is the most powerful class available for solo play.

Sat 19 Dec 2020 3:55 AM
This....there is simply no time to fit reaction in
But mr perfect thinks everyone is talentless

Sat 19 Dec 2020 9:42 PM by protege

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:09 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Dec 2020 8:00 PM
I simply do not get even .5 seconds to react due to latency/lag/my system whatever the hell it is.

Even farturday who lives in Singapour can do it, people in NA can do it, stop finding excuses...
5secs to kill a tank and let the dot do the rest? Dude stop lying, I even posted a video showing with Eowy (a skald, not a heavy tank), and I can't even finish her in 7s during the CD, she can put met at 17% after the end of the stun.

You are a bellow average player and you can't admit it.
Boy, you just fill in factors to justify your narrative.
Did I bring up tank?
I give two shits what others can do...my reaction times are fine...when I’m pretty much under stun when the assassin pops out of stealth it’s my problem. Maybe my wifi sucks, no idea.
Get off your high horse. Most assassins play the class not because of the archetype, but because it is the most powerful class available for solo play.

If being able to dodge 8mans and zergs equates to being powerful then I agree.

Otherwise I'd have a rr11 light tank, hybrid, or heavy tank right now instead of my SB. No comparison between the solo capabilities (1v1 and 1vX) of an assassin vs. said archetypes

Sat 19 Dec 2020 11:24 PM by thirian24

Delete stealth from the game

Sun 20 Dec 2020 2:53 AM by Nephamael

Basically we have a class of 'leet' players who know how to spec and do the right RAs as well as know what procs to put on armor/weaps.. but won't divulge any of the info.. so you have like 5-6 of them racking up most of the points, while the other stealthers flounder.

What does a spec/RA/reactives/procs readout look like for an assassin aiming to kill hybrids/tanks look like?
Ablatives and Damage add reactives? Aug strength 9? Mastery of Arms 9?

Someone said Exo doesn't do viper 5.. OK, but what's the alternative? Most assassins rely on Viper to finish off their opponent.

Actually there is some different specs out, played by different players successfully.

Some stealthers play 50 dw/cd/la and low critical strike and are monsters - some play 44 or 50 critical strike and only 20-30ish dw/cd/la and are very strong.
Some play mop/aug stats focused, while some play high viper or balance mop/aug stats and viper and some play toughness/aug con/avoidance of magic or balance it with offense. In fact all of those options can be played successful. You just have to play what you do well and have the correct target selection for it.

Example1: a 50 la shadowblade with a defensive or balanced ra setup is very strong in any kind of fight, be is chaotic or not, but doesnt thrive at deleting a target fast - this setup is rly strong vs other assassins or tanks in a non perf opener scenario but relatively weak against solo casters. (Here the slight overpowered problem shows very well as this setup still strikes 75%+ winrates vs casters, simply because of the extreme dps.
Example2: a 50 critical strike nightshade with only 20+ celtic dual and a very offensive RA setup, focusing on mop/aug stats and or viper can delete any target extremely fast, if he lands perf or the perf chain - but this setup is weaker in a chaotic fight without a perf opener - so this kind of setup has to try and find perfable targets to shine. - If he hits perf the winrate vs casters is close to 100% but the winrate vs light or fulltanks is much lower. - again due to the power of assassins mostly not much below 50% tho and if the perf chain hits significantly above.