Will stealth be toned down? - Phoenix Freeshard

The server has a slight infestation of stealthers right now.
It is in no way out of the norm to have the top 8 played classes (/serverinfo) be stealthers (granted minstrels are often split in visi and stealth).
And did a check just before I logged, had 20 rangers, next was 16 SB's, next class online was 12.

Personally I handle it okay, unless they are 2+v1, but the stealther problem was one of the reasons casuals quit DaoC back then.

It is perfectly viable to play a solo non-stealth non-speed class, but stealthers are just much safer and you can form groups without having to deal with fighting strong groups, you'll mostly face smallman/soloers.

I suggest making a system of stealth cap, like shrooms. Not in regards to number of stealthers, but amount of stealh skill from one realm in each area.
If you go over cap, your stealth will be lowered, drasticly. Like 1000 radius 100 cap, 1500 radius 200 cap, etc...
This means stealth groups will run the risk, again, of groups finding them. We can all agree that speed 6 groups finding solo stealthers was bad, but groups (or lots of ungrouped) stealthers should run higher risks than they are now.

You wont get a fun server if stealther population keeps growing.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 11:33 PM by relvinian

When I read free MOS, sure just movement, but FREE, I knew it was a stealth server.

Factor in the tasks, which stealths can complete easier than visibiles (solo) and you create the perfect storm for a stealth server.

The cool thing may be if people take advantage of it and roll in and kill the crap out of stealthers with their 8 man groups and maybe a tracker.

Or roll in an drop some gtaoe and pop them stealthers for free rps.

BTW, solo visible is NOT viable if stealthers are running in packs.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 1:30 AM by Ganaka

The task system tells the bad stealthers where to go. They don't even have to hunt their prey anymore; the task system puts their prey in cages. The stealthers are now hunting in a confined zoo. Hell, even I could play a stealther (archer, not assassin) in this environment. Just go near the task areas and stealth. The bait has already been set!

Mon 15 Oct 2018 2:48 AM by defiasbandit

Druth wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Oct 2018 8:36 PM
The server has a slight infestation of stealthers right now.
It is in no way out of the norm to have the top 8 played classes (/serverinfo) be stealthers (granted minstrels are often split in visi and stealth).
And did a check just before I logged, had 20 rangers, next was 16 SB's, next class online was 12.

Personally I handle it okay, unless they are 2+v1, but the stealther problem was one of the reasons casuals quit DaoC back then.

It is perfectly viable to play a solo non-stealth non-speed class, but stealthers are just much safer and you can form groups without having to deal with fighting strong groups, you'll mostly face smallman/soloers.

I suggest making a system of stealth cap, like shrooms. Not in regards to number of stealthers, but amount of stealh skill from one realm in each area.
If you go over cap, your stealth will be lowered, drasticly. Like 1000 radius 100 cap, 1500 radius 200 cap, etc...
This means stealth groups will run the risk, again, of groups finding them. We can all agree that speed 6 groups finding solo stealthers was bad, but groups (or lots of ungrouped) stealthers should run higher risks than they are now.

You wont get a fun server if stealther population keeps growing.

I agree with you. Stealth detection needs to be better. They shouldn't be able to just stack its ezmode and nonsense.

Server is becoming just overtuned stealthers camping realm tasks. If you get past them you just get run over by a zerg.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 2:58 AM by Joc

Same as it's always been. Nerfing a class b/c people decide to play them shouldn't be a reason. Are the strong? Yes they always have been. Are they OP? Not even close. Stealthers are VERY beatable. If you are running solo or duo expect to see them in task areas.

If we are talking about nerfing the ability to stealth or the effectiveness of stealth it's basically gutting an entire class.

Take 2 more people with you and the majority of the time you wont be bothered.

People are acting link stealthers are Gods on this server. They are not even close. Try live! They are MUCH stronger in the live meta currently compared to other classes.

Adapt...

Mon 15 Oct 2018 6:32 AM by Druth

Joc wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Oct 2018 2:58 AM
Same as it's always been. Nerfing a class b/c people decide to play them shouldn't be a reason. Are the strong? Yes they always have been. Are they OP? Not even close. Stealthers are VERY beatable. If you are running solo or duo expect to see them in task areas.

If we are talking about nerfing the ability to stealth or the effectiveness of stealth it's basically gutting an entire class.

Take 2 more people with you and the majority of the time you wont be bothered.

People are acting link stealthers are Gods on this server. They are not even close. Try live! They are MUCH stronger in the live meta currently compared to other classes.

Adapt...

I'm not talking about nerfing stealthers individually, or stealthers in duos.
I am talking about making having many stealthers around you impose a risk of groups finding you (and them).

People are adapting, they are playing stealthers. Is that the kind of "adapt..." we want?
When I logged 0.00 CET half of Albions population were stealthers, and 3/4th of Albs in Emain were stealthers.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 6:35 AM by aso

I play stealther because smallman visible is not an option without horses
And now if you don’t give me the chance to play even stealther, there is nothing to do for me on this server

Mon 15 Oct 2018 6:59 AM by Nino

Stealth is for the weak

Mon 15 Oct 2018 7:29 AM by Palad1n

[/quote]

I'm not talking about nerfing stealthers individually, or stealthers in duos.
I am talking about making having many stealthers around you impose a risk of groups finding you (and them).

People are adapting, they are playing stealthers. Is that the kind of "adapt..." we want?
When I logged 0.00 CET half of Albions population were stealthers, and 3/4th of Albs in Emain were stealthers.
[/quote]

It's amazing how numbers get made up with no data to support it =) Most good stealthers and stealth teams will be /anon in emain, so you have no way of knowing just how many there actually are. Would also love to see all the /who screenshots showing how the poster counted up and came to certain conclusions for total realm population.

When players become frustrated they usually inflate numbers or make claims on information that is usually grossly inaccurate. Frankly it doesn't matter how many want to play stealthers, they are only as good as the person play them and not difficult to overcome. Trying to impose personal vision on how stealth should work to make it easier for others is not the way to go.

Stealthers are easy to bait and pull out of stealth, as I recall, all realms have stealthers there are classes capable of detecting them with certain RA's or more natural abilities. Anti-stealth works just fine in this build iteration, I see no valid info presented that would sway my mind on an issue that frankly doesn't exist.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 8:05 AM by Druth

Palad1n wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Oct 2018 7:29 AM
It's amazing how numbers get made up with no data to support it =) Most good stealthers and stealth teams will be /anon in emain, so you have no way of knowing just how many there actually are. Would also love to see all the /who screenshots showing how the poster counted up and came to certain conclusions for total realm population.

When players become frustrated they usually inflate numbers or make claims on information that is usually grossly inaccurate. Frankly it doesn't matter how many want to play stealthers, they are only as good as the person play them and not difficult to overcome. Trying to impose personal vision on how stealth should work to make it easier for others is not the way to go.

Stealthers are easy to bait and pull out of stealth, as I recall, all realms have stealthers there are classes capable of detecting them with certain RA's or more natural abilities. Anti-stealth works just fine in this build iteration, I see no valid info presented that would sway my mind on an issue that frankly doesn't exist.

First of all, numbers are by default data. Now I do agree data needs more information to form a conclusion, but others gave their perspective. For one that tasks create "honey traps" for stealthers, without them having to find prey, it will simply drop in their lap automaticly.
Saying many "Most good stealthers and stealth teams will be /anon in emain" is not data but opinion, and opinion without any data, and frankly only makes your point even worse.
I did a /serverinfo at the same time, and it gave me 50% stealthers and the /who gave me 3/4th stealthers in Emain. I don't think 50% is as it should be either, it shows a pattern of stealthers being to favourable. And visibel is totally viable, it's rough, but viable. You just die more often, but this is a virtual game, the only thing that is hurt are our egos. And knowing all rps will wipe in 5 days, it's a major surprise to me that people still pick the safe option and not risk more.

Top 250 players last week shows 1/3rd of rps are gained by stealthers. I personally think that is quite a high number for a class group making up 18% of the class total.
Again, this is not 50%, and I do also think the 50% comes when the action slows down some.

And I'm not sure you even play here, because there is no anti-stealth RA's right now. There is no True Sight, so not sure which anti-stealth things you are talking about, apart from using other stealthers.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 8:26 AM by Druth

And Mythic saw the problem back with ToA and NF, and did reign in stealthers some with: Stealthlore, Prescience Node, Traps, and with NF they gave 3 classes TWF and all archers TS.

The problem being, here, that visibels can not find stealthers who does not want to be found (unless they get stealthers to help). And if you want immunity like that, you should also be weaker as a class group.

Instead of nerfing individual stealthers, I would personally rather have groups of them be exposed.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 8:53 AM by vitu

Just unnerf the stealth detection. Before groups could easily decimate the number of stealthers on a wall just by passing. It was still easy to hide, but if you were camping in the middle of the gate or on the road it was way riskier.
Now? 0 Stealth detection with speed 6 (which nearly everyone is running).

Something needs to change, yesterday at 7 or 8 pm it was 55 level 50 Albs, 26 were Infiltrators, Scouts or Minstrels. Can’t be healthy for the server.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 10:10 AM by Aenea

After stealth detection nerf for visible toons, I started to see a huge increase in stealther population. I guess they can play care-free now without even worrying about being detected. I used to pop some stealthers before the nerf with some running around and pbaoe or insta dd. Now it seems almost impossible to pop them. I will be keeping an eye on this. Since i do lots of solo/smallmen with my caster. But i won't be investing much time if the server becomes a stealth orgy.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 10:28 AM by Joc

Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Oct 2018 8:26 AM
And Mythic saw the problem back with ToA and NF, and did reign in stealthers some with: Stealthlore, Prescience Node, Traps, and with NF they gave 3 classes TWF and all archers TS.

The problem being, here, that visibels can not find stealthers who does not want to be found (unless they get stealthers to help). And if you want immunity like that, you should also be weaker as a class group.

Instead of nerfing individual stealthers, I would personally rather have groups of them be exposed.

So by that logic we are penalizing a class for grouping in an MMORPG. How about when groups of visible are around they lose all movement speed. Or maybe when there is more that one healer is in an area we weaken their heals 25%. Or hey when more than one shield tank is around the lose their mainhand weapon and can only attack you with dirty looks?

See what I'm getting at? Penalizing players for playing a class they want with friends and grouping is never a good idea.

This is coming from a player with 3 different Lone Enforcers on live also. I'm a VERY STRONG proponent for solo play, but nerfing a class b/c they want to group is just plain dumb.

Exposing stealthers is a DIRECT nerf to the class.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 11:05 AM by Glimmer

Agree with you Joc.
Some ppls think QQing in forums rivers force Staff to change things, cus like 5/10ppls will whine on forum, while rest population will adapt and play.
Examples where ppls where qqing and whining are tons, like archery nerf,PA/BS nerf,interrupt after stun... this will happen now even more cus it's the only way to enforce the change which is sad. Best option would be a poll before change go live or something like that.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 11:22 AM by grated

I play a stealther because it's easy to log on, tool around for an hour, and log off. I can make it safely to emain solo without getting rolled by skalds. Lately when I get there I am greeted by a fg of alb stealths and get rolled anyway

.

I think it's a problem having a larger population will solve. Stealths right now have it good. The population is low enough you can camp high traffic routes and the risk of being added on before you make the kill is low. You're often forced to run from pk to mg alone because there's not many people online. If these routes that are so juicy with RPs becomes riskier to camp you'll see things balance out.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 12:54 PM by Thinal

Once i50 lands, RvR will as a function of the population be in one of two modes: zerg or elite 8s + stealthers. There will be little incentive to play visible off-classes in solo play, so they'll either not exist or be in a zerg. There will be little incentive to play a meta class in the PUG world in either scenario if one isn't willing to put up with the attitudes every time things don't go perfectly.

Stealthers fill the spot of people who want to participate in RvR without putting up with the whining in either scenario. Get used to the fact that there are going to be plenty of stealthers. That might or might not translate to release demographics.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 12:55 PM by Ganaka

I don't remember Mythic ever truly answering this question: (I'm old, so my memory isn't the best anymore.) How does Stealth work? Is it mechanical or magical? Does Stealth require space to stay stealthed? For example, is being hidden a mechanical response that simulates a series of small, really fast movements that requires a certain "amount" of space around the Stealther to remain stealthed. Or is it simply magical in a supernatural kind of way? A mechanical Stealth system would limit the number of Stealthers (or degrade their Stealth ability) in a confined area since each Stealther needs room to move to stay hidden. Also, a mechanical Stealth system allows uncovering by non-magical means, such as being near the stealthed opponent. A magical Stealth system does not limit the number of Stealthers in a confined area, but also would require magical means to uncover the stealthed opponent. ... Right now we have a mixture of both.

Anyway, the i50 beta phase starts October 20th. I don't think anything should be done to the Stealth system right now. They should wait for at least 2 weeks after i50 starts. People are going to experiment with classes that they wouldn't normally play and the numbers will be skewed. If half the population is stealthed, then maybe adjustments should be made? No reason to panic right now.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 2:04 PM by poisonclover

Is this post serious? Most stealthers aren't even grouped lol.

So let me get this straight, You wont group them in PvE but in RvR you don't want them grouping either? lol

Stealthers use to be hard to level, and if u did you had your benefits. Doing what you wanted with little interference. Now that its easier to level as per every other class. Nothing you can do about it really.

As far as stealth detection goes, albs are the only people crying about stealth detection, hibs and mids pop me quite often if they manage to know where I am. Then again there is a lot of hib/mid characters that know what their doing, they control look with their mouse and just turn back and forth covering insane ground till they pop you.

Stealther Population on a beta that your offering free levels is always going to be a problem. because most people never cared to level them and most people don't even know how to play them.

my point is, there are defenses to these classes not that alb has any earth wizards running around. or you know your small man or fg not trying to camp a milegate you know is inevitably going to be crawling with them.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 2:23 PM by Varano

I wouldn't play a stealther if I had some other way of avoiding zergs, i.e. speed 5 mount.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 2:35 PM by Cadeg

last time i've play my scout, i've seen some people asking for dps / peel to finish their small man / fg ...
with dodger5/mob5, 44 thrust and 42+17 shield, as well with 50+ composite bow, i can deal more than some arms / merc while protecting / peeling in back line and can two shot any caster ( or OS sometimes

) at 2K+ range ...

all the answer i have : go solo as scout, go in stealth zerg with scout, go f... yourself with your stealth etc etc ...

so, how do you want to have some attraction in fg when you see that ?
/ponder

Mon 15 Oct 2018 2:53 PM by relvinian

To answer the original poster, and of course im nobody, the answer is probably.

NO

It won't be toned down. But it can be dealt with. Also, demographics at this point are not live demographics.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 5:59 PM by Druth

Well, I see they already had eyes on the issue.

Glad to see, will be interesting to see how it develops.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 9:08 PM by Cadebrennus

Cadeg wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Oct 2018 2:35 PM
last time i've play my scout, i've seen some people asking for dps / peel to finish their small man / fg ...
with dodger5/mob5, 44 thrust and 42+17 shield, as well with 50+ composite bow, i can deal more than some arms / merc while protecting / peeling in back line and can two shot any caster ( or OS sometimes ) at 2K+ range ...

all the answer i have : go solo as scout, go in stealth zerg with scout, go f... yourself with your stealth etc etc ...

so, how do you want to have some attraction in fg when you see that ?
/ponder

You just have to keep getting yourself out there. I played a Visi Ranger for years and it took a while before I received any sort of acceptance with this playstyle. After a while quite a few groups would take me over a pure melee dps class because I could also interrupt the backfield (which a pure melee dps can't do).

In my opinion a Scout is the best Visi group Archer in the game because they have the shield which can be used to Guard, Engage, and Slam for the caster that they are /assisting. A Ranger or a Hunter have to work a bit harder to peel incoming enemy melee because they have to pull off a positional stun Vs an anytime stun. 44 Thrust is also a necessary spec point investment for a Visi group Scout for the anytime snare chain. With that setup there shouldn't be any reason a Scout wouldn't be welcome.

The class design aspect for the three Archers is already in game to make them an asset to a Visi group but it is up to the players to get past their single-minded mentality about what classes should and should not be pigeonholed into regarding their roles.