Charge to light tank - Phoenix Freeshard

In my opinion the RA CHARGE should be introduced for light tank to balance the actual overpowered classic alb caster group with 200 pet and heavy magic damage with 1.5 casting time.

Wed 28 Oct 2020 5:58 PM by DinoTriz

LIGHT TANK GANG RISE UP

Wed 28 Oct 2020 6:27 PM by skipari

or probably at least reduce the spell damage by the same amount as the melee damage was reduced

But to the topic, don't know if it actually would help, but at least i think it wouldn't hurt.

Wed 28 Oct 2020 6:41 PM by raglour00

Yeah i play only tank (Paladin, Hero) and it's so hard 50% debuff resist... I m tank like a caster, charge is a good RA for mid for example.
In my opinion your idea is very well.

Maybe nerf debuff resist to 30%

Or give to Main Tank (armsman, hero, warrior) 10% + resist all magic.

Wed 28 Oct 2020 6:51 PM by tommccartney

Agree with OP

Cleric
Friar
Armsman
Minstrel + PET
Sorc + PET
Sorc + PET
Caba + PET
Caba + PET

Or swap out a 2nd sorc for a Theugist .. +MORE PETS

I vote yes to charge.

Wed 28 Oct 2020 7:26 PM by DinoTriz

People like to say Charge would be OP but I doubt it.

Casters would still dominate easily.

Wed 28 Oct 2020 7:45 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Devs believe that Charge was added as a counter to Speed Warp, and that Bodyguard & Brittle Guards are the counter to Charge, and as they have no intention of introducing those three abilities they have taken a hard "no Charge" stance.

Also:

gruenesschaf wrote: Last November we internally decided to announce some major change regarding the future of the server once the eu pt population drops below a certain threshold on a non holiday Sunday. Aside from bug fixes there won't be anymore gameplay changes until then.

Wed 28 Oct 2020 8:03 PM by IdiamVonGawaine

Krakkon wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 5:38 PM
In my opinion the RA CHARGE should be introduced for light tank to balance the actual overpowered classic alb caster group with 200 pet and heavy magic damage with 1.5 casting time.

Did you not see the RA's they were going to add giving casters more tools to escape, melee health buffers, and pets that can't be CC'd?

Melee is supposed to be fodder for casters on this server.

Role a sorc or a minst already and be done with it...

Wed 28 Oct 2020 8:05 PM by DinoTriz

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 7:45 PM
Aside from bug fixes there won't be anymore gameplay changes until then.

Besides the new quests...

So adding Charge is still possible.

Wed 28 Oct 2020 8:17 PM by skipari

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 8:05 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 7:45 PM
Aside from bug fixes there won't be anymore gameplay changes until then.

Besides the new quests...

So adding Charge is still possible.

Well, a quest isn't considered a gameplay change. Neither in phoenix nor anywhere else. Well maybe in some asia grinder mmo actually, but thats an exception.

Wed 28 Oct 2020 10:33 PM by

Uthred

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 8:30 PM
With charge it's pretty much that it makes bg or speedwarp required to counter the target not being peelable for the duration of charge, however, at least bg is more effective due to not having a cooldown and kind of requires banelord ml 1/2 as the answer.
The alternative to countering with bg would be with speedwarp, however, this is less effective / solid and would depend on being able to drag the charge tanks out of range.

Regardless of adding any of the imo required counter options, adding charge right now while everyone has 9 second slam would pretty much remove all non charge light tanks and non full tanks from group consideration and at least for the hero it will be reevaluated if the full tank ras are worth it compared to another charge 5. Even with the reduced slam duration for non full tanks it would still remove all hybrids without access to it from consideration with the odd vw maybe being still getting invited by accident. In case of mid you'll have pretty huge QQ either way as you either kill the svg by not giving it to him or you get qq from everyone else that svg has charge.
The easy way out here would be what live did: just give it light tanks for free and allow certain hybrids to spec it as RA, thereby solving making hybrids obsolete. The counter argument is that now everyone has it, but the counter to that again would be that everyone would play charge tanks anyways and not their hybrids. Pretty much just meh.

It's somewhat simpler to just not go there.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:10 AM by Krakkon

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 10:33 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 8:30 PM
With charge it's pretty much that it makes bg or speedwarp required to counter the target not being peelable for the duration of charge, however, at least bg is more effective due to not having a cooldown and kind of requires banelord ml 1/2 as the answer.
The alternative to countering with bg would be with speedwarp, however, this is less effective / solid and would depend on being able to drag the charge tanks out of range.

Regardless of adding any of the imo required counter options, adding charge right now while everyone has 9 second slam would pretty much remove all non charge light tanks and non full tanks from group consideration and at least for the hero it will be reevaluated if the full tank ras are worth it compared to another charge 5. Even with the reduced slam duration for non full tanks it would still remove all hybrids without access to it from consideration with the odd vw maybe being still getting invited by accident. In case of mid you'll have pretty huge QQ either way as you either kill the svg by not giving it to him or you get qq from everyone else that svg has charge.
The easy way out here would be what live did: just give it light tanks for free and allow certain hybrids to spec it as RA, thereby solving making hybrids obsolete. The counter argument is that now everyone has it, but the counter to that again would be that everyone would play charge tanks anyways and not their hybrids. Pretty much just meh.

It's somewhat simpler to just not go there.

This sounds like i don't want to hear any complaint so it's better leaving things like now.

Albs make a choice building rvr group in that way to have the max performance so it's a players choice how to build a rvr party. I think in alb is really hard for a wizard or merc to find a group and i don t see those in 8man.....

You are the same who gave 9s stun and anytime root without immunity to the scout, probably the best peeler on the server right now

Thu 29 Oct 2020 9:10 AM by byron

The problem is always the balance, I think it's very difficult to balance things mostly because if you try that you will receive 100 QQ on forum too. But at now it pretty clear to all that caster group is far superior to play: very high damage with 50% debuff and insane interrupts (especially in Alb). Light tanks are no efficient (easily snared, slammed and killed with debuff and DD and also the damage is quite low compared to casters) and for sure the realm that suffers more this situation is Midgard, the melee realm.
The guys I started to play on Mid already left and now they are playing on Albion

Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:02 AM by tommccartney

tommccartney wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Oct 2020 6:51 PM
Agree with OP

Cleric
Friar
Armsman
Minstrel + PET
Sorc + PET
Sorc + PET
Caba + PET
Caba + PET

Or swap out a 2nd sorc for a Theugist .. +MORE PETS

I vote yes to charge.

Charge would help combat the above.

Maybe remove the speed boast and give it a visible spell affect when used.

Playing a Zerk vs a high rr Alb caster group is rough. Your healers & Sham will have pet aggro for sure. Arms will slam & snare you on their back line. Debuff body assist train will kill you in 2 seconds. And you hit like a wet noodle due to high physical defence and stat debuffs.

Charge would help break this meta

Thu 29 Oct 2020 11:46 AM by Lollie

They could always give light tanks Severing the Teather RA, would be fun to watch all the pets suddenly turn on thier owners.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:58 PM by Tyrlaan

The counter to light tanks who cannot be peeled (for some time, mind you) is heals and damage mitigation: plenty RAs to do that, as well as a couple class abilities like high shield guard, BTs, melee dps debuffs, short duration high abs buffs etc. It doesn´t need Bodyguard or Speed Warp just because there´s Charge. The classic server Gareth had Charge and no MLs.

Single or duo light tank damage is still very low compared to caster damage. And I dunno, even if groups actually started to build around light tank assists again whose damage needs heals and damage mitigation during the duration of an RA on all of them, how is it any different than casters using MoC which allows them to do (assisted) damage without the only counter to it, interrupting them, much like peels don´t allow melees to do damage to their target?

I also don´t think the alternative outlined, "groups finally picking light tanks again for what they are good at, getting into melee to deal damage and not just to peel" is any different than the current "groups preferring heavy tanks due to their group RAs, guard, survivability and peels". I also think people will still want heavy tanks, even more with more groups building around tanks.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 7:20 PM by tommccartney

Counters to a Charge tank(s)

Heals
Instant heals
MoC
Gaurd
SoS
Stat debuff + haste debuffs
Physical defence
Divine intervention
Bladeturn
Pulsing bladeturn
Soldier’s Barricade
Dashing defence
Kiting and forcing over extend & focus MA train

To name a few

Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:42 PM by Tyrlaan

I didn´t want to name them all (you forgot MHB reactive procs).

Heals is the same for everyone but there´s definitely way more melee damage mitigation in this game for those doing (assisted) unpeelable (for some duration) melee damage than there is magic damage mitigation for those doing (assisted) uninterruptable (for some duration) magic damage. And melee would spent most of that unpeelable time getting into melee range - vs. just (/assist) /face and doing it from range from the very 1st second.

That´s exactly why Phoenix is a caster server.

Thu 29 Oct 2020 9:01 PM by tommccartney

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 8:42 PM
I didn´t want to name them all (you forgot MHB reactive procs).

Heals is the same for everyone but there´s definitely way more melee damage mitigation in this game for those doing (assisted) unpeelable (for some duration) melee damage than there is magic damage mitigation for those doing (assisted) uninterruptable (for some duration) magic damage. And melee would spent most of that unpeelable time getting into melee range - vs. just (/assist) /face and doing it from range from the very 1st second.

That´s exactly why Phoenix is a caster server.

Agree

Fri 30 Oct 2020 1:00 AM by gromet12

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Oct 2020 6:58 PM
The classic server Gareth had Charge and no MLs.

And the server was a blast

Fri 30 Oct 2020 7:20 AM by gotwqqd

This whole idea that anything added requires a counter is ridiculous

Fri 30 Oct 2020 11:25 AM by Tyrlaan

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Oct 2020 7:20 AM
This whole idea that anything added requires a counter is ridiculous

Well I like counters and like I wrote, there are plenty. The whole idea that adding Charge would require MLs to counter it is ridiculous though. One word. Gareth.

Just because you can counter an RA with an ML ability doesn´t mean it needs that ML ability to live through the duration of that RA.
Forceful Zephyr was one very strong counter to MoC, yet we have MoC and no FZ. Speedwarp was THE counter to SOS, yet we have SOS and no SW.

If caster groups can just become immune to interrupts (if they haven´t got the upper hand in the interrupt wars already) to assist everybody down within 3 seconds (unless damage mitigation and very strong heals) then proceed to the next target while the enemy healers have to deal with their pets - then allowing melee tanks to get into melee range to deal assist damage (which again needs damage mitigation and heals, this time without extra pets on enemy healers) is hardly OPed.

There´s a reason light tanks are at the bottom of /serverinfo, with a few trying to 1vX assassins. They are the melee dps class yet on Phoenix tanks are for the most part relegated to peel or counter-peel other tanks or pets.

Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:58 PM by jonl

If you think light tanks need charge and or you think casters are overpowered you dont understand the game at all and probably take keeps all day and dont get to have an opinion

😏

Fri 30 Oct 2020 2:49 PM by ExcretusMaximus

jonl wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:58 PM
If you think light tanks need charge and or you think casters are overpowered you dont understand the game at all and probably take keeps all day and dont get to have an opinion

😏

Casters aren't the issue, 50% debuff (with spec bonus on top of it) and 4-5 same-type casters assisting is the issue. Without the debuff, casters are lackluster. With the debuff, casters are powerful. It's pretty clear the issue lies in the debuff, not in the casters themselves.

Oh well, too many whiners killed the server's devs' willingness to change things, so no hope of this being resolved.

Fri 30 Oct 2020 3:11 PM by DinoTriz

jonl wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:58 PM
If you think light tanks need charge and or you think casters are overpowered you dont understand the game at all and probably take keeps all day and dont get to have an opinion

😏

Charge may not be the cure, but melee needs something. It's blatantly obvious to anyone that melee are nothing but cannon fodder.

When you have a single digit population for certain melee classes, there's a problem.

Most casters have multiple CC options and multiple RA CC options.

Melee has...snare. That's only IF we can make it to the caster. And it's not a reliable form of CC against a Caster, only used against other melees because melees have no other counter to ANY CC at all.

I'm not asking for Melee to be balanced. I don't want to turn this server into WoW, but don't pretend like melee classes are equal to casters because they aren't. That's why tanks were given Charge in the first place. Because the original Devs saw that melee classes were underpowered.

Fri 30 Oct 2020 5:53 PM by tommccartney

jonl wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Oct 2020 12:58 PM
If you think light tanks need charge and or you think casters are overpowered you dont understand the game at all and probably take keeps all day and dont get to have an opinion

😏

So caster groups just happen to be the meta for no reason then, bore off

Fri 30 Oct 2020 6:11 PM by

gruenesschaf

tommccartney wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Oct 2020 5:53 PM
So caster groups just happen to be the meta for no reason then, bore off

In the last 2 months the vast majority of groups seen in 8vs8 gvg fights have been hybrid groups for midgard, melee groups for hib and caster/hybrid groups for alb.

Warrior, Skald, Healer, Healer, Shaman, Runemaster, Bonedancer, Savage -> 265
Blademaster, Blademaster, Hero, Warden, Druid, Druid, Bard, Valewalker -> 111
Armsman, Minstrel, Theurgist, Cleric, Sorcerer, Friar, Cabalist, Reaver -> 97
Warrior, Skald, Healer, Healer, Spiritmaster, Shaman, Runemaster, Bonedancer -> 92
Blademaster, Hero, Champion, Warden, Druid, Druid, Bard, Valewalker -> 88
Warrior, Skald, Healer, Healer, Shaman, Runemaster, Bonedancer, Berserker -> 75
Eldritch, Blademaster, Hero, Warden, Druid, Druid, Bard, Valewalker -> 64
Armsman, Minstrel, Theurgist, Cleric, Sorcerer, Sorcerer, Friar, Cabalist -> 53
Armsman, Minstrel, Theurgist, Cleric, Sorcerer, Friar, Mercenary, Cabalist -> 47
Armsman, Minstrel, Cleric, Cleric, Sorcerer, Sorcerer, Cabalist, Cabalist -> 43
Warrior, Skald, Healer, Healer, Shaman, Bonedancer, Berserker, Savage -> 35
Warrior, Skald, Healer, Healer, Shaman, Runemaster, Berserker, Savage -> 34
Blademaster, Hero, Warden, Druid, Druid, Bard, Bard, Valewalker -> 33
Eldritch, Enchanter, Mentalist, Hero, Warden, Druid, Druid, Bard -> 33
Blademaster, Blademaster, Blademaster, Warden, Druid, Druid, Bard, Valewalker -> 30

Fri 30 Oct 2020 6:23 PM by skipari

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Oct 2020 6:11 PM
tommccartney wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Oct 2020 5:53 PM
So caster groups just happen to be the meta for no reason then, bore off

In the last 2 months the vast majority of groups seen in 8vs8 gvg fights have been hybrid groups for midgard, melee groups for hib and caster/hybrid groups for alb.

...
Blademaster, Blademaster, Hero, Warden, Druid, Druid, Bard, Valewalker -> 111
...
Blademaster, Hero, Champion, Warden, Druid, Druid, Bard, Valewalker -> 88
...

4/4 from hib should actually be seen as healer group instead melee group.