First Aid, Tireless and Long Wind will become baseline

Started 23 Sep 2020
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
This change will go live on Monday together with the initial round of the keep fight changes.

Tireless 1 will become baseline to everyone at level 5 and will no longer be an RA. Tireless 1 remains the highest attainable level.
Long wind 1 will become baseline to everyone at level 10 and will no longer be an RA. Long wind 1 remains the highest attainable level.
First Aid 2 will become baseline to everyone at level 24 and no longer be an RA. First aid 2 will be the highest attainable level. In addition to that first aid will cure diseases, however this cure will happen AFTER the heal meaning the heal component will be affected by disease.

A free realm respec will be provided to all characters.

Reasoning:
Tireless and long wind are must picks by pretty much everyone making it quite annoying if your forget to pick it up after a respec, other than that nothing is really gained by having these forced picks for 2 points.
First aid in its current form is almost entirely unused as it's not really considered to be worth the points by most. Making it baseline is a qol and adding the cure disease component resolves another loud issue without changing diseases themselves.

The main usage of first aid should be small man / solos after an engagement or in prolonged sieges, if it turns out to have a negative impact on actual combat an additional 5 - 20 second timer might be added to the current out of combat requirement.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:16 PM by Bradekes
This is a great change! I like it 👍

Small thing, CC might be even more powerful solo/smallman. Can you make Firstaid unusable if you have an actively mezzed or cc'd target? Or make the cooldown not start until all of your targets CC has dissipated?
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:22 PM by DJ2000
Stealthers and general Solo Players rejoice!
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:26 PM by evert
FA change not so good, it's a nerf for skalds/minstrels basically. I would suggest giving FA1 (with disease removal) for free and keep FA2/FA3 as speccable. This gives some utility to everyone but keeps the option to specialise in it for those classes that can use it as a strategy.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:31 PM by Bannerd
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:26 PM
FA change not so good, it's a nerf for skalds/minstrels basically. I would suggest giving FA1 (with disease removal) for free and keep FA2/FA3 as speccable. This gives some utility to everyone but keeps the option to specialise in it for those classes that can use it as a strategy.

its quite the opposite really.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:32 PM by inoeth
massive buff for skalds and minstrels since these classes have been the only ones specing FA and now have 10 extra points for purge? cool, not.
then please increase the reuse to 15 min
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:36 PM by evert
9 extra points is not that much. The big change is if you snare/stun/skald-mezz someone and run away to FA they can FA too, so in ~50% of situations your FA is useless (and worse than useless if you are diseased).

Obviously there will still be situations where the opponent is already at high health % so can't benefit or where you can FA during mezz.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:38 PM by Ibs
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:26 PM
FA change not so good, it's a nerf for skalds/minstrels basically. I would suggest giving FA1 (with disease removal) for free and keep FA2/FA3 as speccable. This gives some utility to everyone but keeps the option to specialise in it for those classes that can use it as a strategy.

Are you insane? This is a huge buff for everyone even if they can't spec in fa 3 lol... Gives them the ability to cure disease and heal percentage based for free all on a super short cd.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:40 PM by evert
I mean the disease part is nice but I already have FA2 so I'm not getting FA2, I'm getting moparry 3->6 or whatever and in exchange everyone else gets FA2! Bad deal if you ask me.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:44 PM by inoeth
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:40 PM
I mean the disease part is nice but I already have FA2 so I'm not getting FA2, I'm getting moparry 3->6 or whatever and in exchange everyone else gets FA2! Bad deal if you ask me.

well and who can use it in a fight? right nobody but skalds/minstrels ....
from that perspective 9 extra points for moparry is huge!
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:46 PM by evert
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:44 PM
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:40 PM
I mean the disease part is nice but I already have FA2 so I'm not getting FA2, I'm getting moparry 3->6 or whatever and in exchange everyone else gets FA2! Bad deal if you ask me.

well and who can use it in a fight? right nobody but skalds/minstrels ....
from that perspective 9 extra points for moparry is huge!

At least on skald a big proportion of the times I use FA the opponent could use it too if they had it (snare+kite+FA or sos+FA). So it will just reset the fight entirely rather then being a tool for me
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:48 PM by Ibs
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:40 PM
I mean the disease part is nice but I already have FA2 so I'm not getting FA2, I'm getting moparry 3->6 or whatever and in exchange everyone else gets FA2! Bad deal if you ask me.

Well your reasoning is pretty flawed. Everyone can already get fa, and skald minst aren't the only classes that hold the ability to cc then run off and first aid. Also this game isn't balanced around what is good for your solo skald. (Even though this is way better for your skald and you somehow don't see it)
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:50 PM by Faan
inoeth wrote:
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:40 PM
I mean the disease part is nice but I already have FA2 so I'm not getting FA2, I'm getting moparry 3->6 or whatever and in exchange everyone else gets FA2! Bad deal if you ask me.

well and who can use it in a fight? right nobody but skalds/minstrels ....
from that perspective 9 extra points for moparry is huge!
Everyone can use it after having a close duel with Infil/SB/NS that you´ve won, to not die by the poisons of it
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:50 PM by Lev
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:12 PM
This change will go live on Monday together with the initial round of the keep fight changes.

Tireless 1 will become baseline to everyone at level 5 and will no longer be an RA. Tireless 1 remains the highest attainable level.
Long wind 1 will become baseline to everyone at level 10 and will no longer be an RA. Long wind 1 remains the highest attainable level.
First Aid 2 will become baseline to everyone at level 24 and no longer be an RA. First aid 2 will be the highest attainable level. In addition to that first aid will cure diseases, however this cure will happen AFTER the heal meaning the heal component will be affected by disease.

A free realm respec will be provided to all characters.

Reasoning:
Tireless and long wind are must picks by pretty much everyone making it quite annoying if your forget to pick it up after a respec, other than that nothing is really gained by having these forced picks for 2 points.
First aid in its current form is almost entirely unused as it's not really considered to be worth the points by most. Making it baseline is a qol and adding the cure disease component resolves another loud issue without changing diseases themselves.

The main usage of first aid should be small man / solos after an engagement or in prolonged sieges, if it turns out to have a negative impact on actual combat an additional 5 - 20 second timer might be added to the current out of combat requirement.

Tireless + LW --> good

free buffed FA II for anyone is bad. just bad. the impact is bigger than you might think. for a lot of classes kiting is just part of their natural tactics.
if you now must kite knowing that EVERYONE has a free 60% heal + disease remove after 10s out of combat, changes a lot. and of course, it's instant and thus usuable while running. so you can't kite for more than 10s anymore without putting your enemy in combat (remember the custom changes here: bleeds and dots don't keep you in combat).
also it changes fights in which you hunt them down fast because you know they need to rest up. for stealths this is big too. as soon as they can stealth (= out of combat), they get a 60% heal and disease remove every 3min. so they are (almost) fully back on track very fast after a fight. do we really want that and call it QoL?

why change a existing RA and not introduce the solution to the problem you want to solve: a free disease self remove with a 4s castime, usuable out of combat...

btw. it's hardly a nerf to those who specced it right now. this change frees up 11 points for them (more than a whole realm rank!!) and on top removes disease now.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:51 PM by evert
Ibs wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:48 PM
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:40 PM
I mean the disease part is nice but I already have FA2 so I'm not getting FA2, I'm getting moparry 3->6 or whatever and in exchange everyone else gets FA2! Bad deal if you ask me.

Well your reasoning is pretty flawed. Everyone can already get fa, and skald minst aren't the only classes that hold the ability to cc then run off and first aid. Also this game isn't balanced around what is good for your solo skald. (Even though this is way better for your skald and you somehow don't see it)

I can't help if people are stupid and don't spec FA! But now they will have it and *maybe* use it.

And obviously the game isn't balanced around that, I'm just whining.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:55 PM by inoeth
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:46 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:44 PM
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:40 PM
I mean the disease part is nice but I already have FA2 so I'm not getting FA2, I'm getting moparry 3->6 or whatever and in exchange everyone else gets FA2! Bad deal if you ask me.

well and who can use it in a fight? right nobody but skalds/minstrels ....
from that perspective 9 extra points for moparry is huge!

At least on skald a big proportion of the times I use FA the opponent could use it too if they had it (snare+kite+FA or sos+FA). So it will just reset the fight entirely rather then being a tool for me

"could" yes if that would be anything close to reality... in fact "in-combat-mezz" classes (hint: skald/minstrel) are the only ones who can use it effectivly in every fight and both classes are already pretty strong
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:56 PM by Faan
Ibs wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:48 PM
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:40 PM
I mean the disease part is nice but I already have FA2 so I'm not getting FA2, I'm getting moparry 3->6 or whatever and in exchange everyone else gets FA2! Bad deal if you ask me.

Well your reasoning is pretty flawed. Everyone can already get fa, and skald minst aren't the only classes that hold the ability to cc then run off and first aid. Also this game isn't balanced around what is good for your solo skald. (Even though this is way better for your skald and you somehow don't see it)
Stealthers can spec First Aid but never did it cause it cost too many points but now they got it for free
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:58 PM by DJ2000
Skald and minstrels ("Battle-bard"?) can Reset the Fight with a Mezz.
Which means they can activate FA2 while the opponent can't, as the Skald/minstrel can and will reinitiate the Fight right after.
As far as i can see it, it's a free FA2 for these classes which used this type of strategy anyway.

The only way to do this is also with a Mezz, No Stun/snare/root will work the one-sided way, to make use of FA2, like a Mezz does.

It's a buff for everyone. Especially to all Stealther/Solo Players.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 1:01 PM by Faan
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:58 PM
Skald and minstrels ("Battle-bard"?) can Reset the Fight with a Mezz.
Which means they can activate FA2 while the opponent can't, as the Skald/minstrel can and will reinitiate the Fight right after.
As far as i can see it, it's a free FA2 for these classes which used this type of strategy anyway.

The only way to do this is also with a Mezz, No Stun/snare/root will work the one-sided way, to make use of FA2, like a Mezz does.

It's a buff for everyone. Especially to all Stealther/Solo Players.
why no stun? If a Warrior slams you(9sec), he gotta stay 1sec out of combat and can use FA2
Wed 23 Sep 2020 1:08 PM by inoeth
Faan wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 1:01 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:58 PM
Skald and minstrels ("Battle-bard"?) can Reset the Fight with a Mezz.
Which means they can activate FA2 while the opponent can't, as the Skald/minstrel can and will reinitiate the Fight right after.
As far as i can see it, it's a free FA2 for these classes which used this type of strategy anyway.

The only way to do this is also with a Mezz, No Stun/snare/root will work the one-sided way, to make use of FA2, like a Mezz does.

It's a buff for everyone. Especially to all Stealther/Solo Players.
why no stun? If a Warrior slams you(9sec), he gotta stay 1sec out of combat and can use FA2

not if you spam dd charge
anyway using FA or preventing it will become the new meta and everyone who does not have a stun or any kind of cc is basicly fked
Wed 23 Sep 2020 1:15 PM by Sepplord
good choice on LW/tireless

but giving FA2 free seems like it will impact classbalance in smallscale and is much more than a QOL change
Wed 23 Sep 2020 1:33 PM by ExcretusMaximus
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:44 PM
well and who can use it in a fight? right nobody but skalds/minstrels ....

I wasn't aware that skalds and minstrels were the only two classes in the entire game with a 10 second CC.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 1:34 PM by DJ2000
Faan wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 1:01 PM
why no stun? If a Warrior slams you(9sec), he gotta stay 1sec out of combat and can use FA2
A Stun would mean u want to reset the fight to use FA2, so u don't ATK the stunned target and try to get out of LoS, which makes u able to use FA2. (at which point the opponent can too)
A 9sec. stun can not prevent the enemy from also using FA2, like a Mezz.
If you dont break LoS, its possible that u can't use FA2 (instant/Charge Dbf or DD) as the Stun duration is too short.

So a Stun can result in both being able to use FA2, or none being able to use FA2.
Only a Mezz can make you (the mezzer) use FA2 while the opponent (the mezzed) can't use it.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 1:41 PM by Strikejk
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:12 PM
Tireless 1 will become baseline to everyone at level 5 and will no longer be an RA. Tireless 1 remains the highest attainable level.
Good. Raises overall Realm-rank by 0.1 points, this should help new players who are notoriously low on available RPs to satisfy the growing expectations of available RAs.
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:12 PM
Long wind 1 will become baseline to everyone at level 10 and will no longer be an RA. Long wind 1 remains the highest attainable level.
Good. Raises overall Realm-rank by 0.1 points, this should help new players who are notoriously low on available RPs to satisfy the growing expectations of available RAs.
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:12 PM
First Aid 2 will become baseline to everyone at level 24 and no longer be an RA. First aid 2 will be the highest attainable level. In addition to that first aid will cure diseases, however this cure will happen AFTER the heal meaning the heal component will be affected by disease.
Okay-ish: Raises Realm-rank by 0.9 points for the handful of classes who actually used this, primarely speed classes and stealthers who could disengage combat on their terms.
Good: Provides a method to clear disease, especially useful for solo & smallman.
Less than okay-ish: Gives every player a very strong self heal (60%) on a low cooldown timers (3min). This makes long endurance fights, primarily sieges very hard to win as both sides can easily heal up all the time. Devalues tactics that involve grinding the enemy down.

Summary: 2 good and 1 okay change. In my opinion First Aid baseline should be lowered to 1 instead of 2, while the cap remains at 2. This prevents the issue of granting to many free RPs for only the few classes that used it. Furthermore it reduces the issue of too much self heal which prolongs siege fights and devalues certain tactics.
This change doesn't inhibit the positive factor of providing a disease clear and a bit of self heal for solos & smallmans, while also allowing certain classes to further refine their specc by going up to level 2 in first aid.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 1:50 PM by Valaraukar
Good changes, maybe FA2 is a little too much. FA1would be good anyway, to avoid people dying by poison after a combat: 25% is a good percentage of health restored, 60% is way too much imho, unless you put a use timer of at least 30sec (or 1 minute like buff pots) after combat
Wed 23 Sep 2020 1:55 PM by DJ2000
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:12 PM
Tireless 1 will become baseline to everyone at level 5 and will no longer be an RA. Tireless 1 remains the highest attainable level.
Long wind 1 will become baseline to everyone at level 10 and will no longer be an RA. Long wind 1 remains the highest attainable level.
First Aid 2 will become baseline to everyone at level 24 and no longer be an RA. First aid 2 will be the highest attainable level. In addition to that first aid will cure diseases, however this cure will happen AFTER the heal meaning the heal component will be affected by disease.

A free realm respec will be provided to all characters.
Tireless and Long Wind is fine.
First Aid 2 + Cure -> First Aid 1 + Cure (change Value from 25% to 30%)
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:07 PM by Freedomcall
No, no, no.
Hard no on First Aid change.

This has too much possible impact when combined with CC/SoS/Speed burst.
This is not just QoL.
This will change the gameplay.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:10 PM by Kwall0311
You cannot change how FA works. Im even for the diseaes curing part but id rather have no change at all ( or make it cure disease and work the same but have to spend the points)

FA2 change will entirely change the dynamic of solo fights especially for classes that use kiting . Please dont touch it.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:18 PM by Delegator
Let me get this straight -- we're talking about a power that people didn't spec for, and now suddenly it is the game-changing unbalancing ability? Seriously? If it was that great, people would have spent the points on it.

I think the biggest benefit will be to people in the stealth wars, being able to get rid of disease before minutes are up, but literally everybody can benefit if they get out of combat. Healers...generally not in combat anyway (they can use MCL, right?). CC...yup that means the bazillion classes with mez and stun of some sort. The main thing will be that pet classes need to control their pets. And I do worry about dealing with scouts and the infinite snare even more now.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:23 PM by Valaraukar
If the use timer is the same as the buff pots it would be fine. 1 full minute out of combat is a lot of time. Anyway a plain 60% heal (if not diseased) it's quite too much for a free ability.
FA1 with 1 minute use timer would be the best option for me, not too unbalanced but it remains a great gift to all solo classes and a good one for everybody else.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:28 PM by Kwall0311
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:23 PM
If the use timer is the same as the buff pots it would be fine. 1 full minute out of combat is a lot of time. Anyway a plain 60% heal (if not diseased) it's quite too much for a free ability.
FA1 with 1 minute use timer would be the best option for me, not too unbalanced but it remains a great gift to all solo classes and a good one for everybody else.

This is exactly whats wrong. Changing the timer effects the people that actually do use it. Just a bad idea that hasnt been thought out properly. They should just add a out of combat disease cure potion if thats their main concern .
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:34 PM by Valaraukar
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:28 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:23 PM
If the use timer is the same as the buff pots it would be fine. 1 full minute out of combat is a lot of time. Anyway a plain 60% heal (if not diseased) it's quite too much for a free ability.
FA1 with 1 minute use timer would be the best option for me, not too unbalanced but it remains a great gift to all solo classes and a good one for everybody else.

This is exactly whats wrong. Changing the timer effects the people that actually do use it. Just a bad idea that hasnt been thought out properly. They should just add a out of combat disease cure potion if thats their main concern .

After 1 minute everyone can use it, because 99.9% of times the combat is completely finished after one minute, and you are not still kiting or pursuing someone. It would be much worse if you can use it after few seconds from the last hit, because it will become a "combat" ability, given free, and a HUGE gift to minst/skald and assassins with vanish.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:37 PM by DinoTriz
Free FA will be a godsend to melee classes who are forced to solo PVE

Thanks!
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:47 PM by xenow
Hopefully if an extra combat timer is added, its RvR only, because as is, FA1 or 2 is a nice boon for melee soloing in PvE, and this change would make it even better.

How about a free MCL2 for the casters?
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:16 PM by amnvex
Delegator wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:18 PM
Let me get this straight -- we're talking about a power that people didn't spec for, and now suddenly it is the game-changing unbalancing ability? Seriously? If it was that great, people would have spent the points on it.

Whiners will whine. That's what I was thinking. Free ability to everyone and suddenly "omg no no no, you've ruined RvR, PvP in general, AND the whole Phoenix server!!"
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:19 PM by ExcretusMaximus
xenow wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:47 PM
How about a free MCL2 for the casters?

Only if melee get Second Wind 2 for free, and its reuse is lowered to 3 minutes.

First Aid is literally useable by everyone.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:23 PM by Freedomcall
Delegator wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:18 PM
Let me get this straight -- we're talking about a power that people didn't spec for, and now suddenly it is the game-changing unbalancing ability? Seriously? If it was that great, people would have spent the points on it.

I think the biggest benefit will be to people in the stealth wars, being able to get rid of disease before minutes are up, but literally everybody can benefit if they get out of combat. Healers...generally not in combat anyway (they can use MCL, right?). CC...yup that means the bazillion classes with mez and stun of some sort. The main thing will be that pet classes need to control their pets. And I do worry about dealing with scouts and the infinite snare even more now.

People didn't spec for?
At least I've seen multiple skalds and minstrels using first aid.
It is just that there are more important/urgent RAs, so they didn't invest their realm points into FA until higher RR.
That doesn't mean first aid wasn't worth it at all and won't change the gameplay when given for free.

Also, giving something to everyone doesn't always mean balance will be still same just because everyone got it equally.
Let's say everyone were given +500 hp. then would it be ok cuz everyone benefits from it equally?
I don't think so.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:23 PM by Valaraukar
amnvex wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:16 PM
Delegator wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:18 PM
Let me get this straight -- we're talking about a power that people didn't spec for, and now suddenly it is the game-changing unbalancing ability? Seriously? If it was that great, people would have spent the points on it.

Whiners will whine. That's what I was thinking. Free ability to everyone and suddenly "omg no no no, you've ruined RvR, PvP in general, AND the whole Phoenix server!!"

To be honest everyone is not "everyone" in Daoc. Giving FA2 to a healer is not the same as giving it to a minstrel. This is a fact. So it is normal that someone will whine and someone else will celebrate. The issue is finding balance between the classes, and anyway some toons will get more love than other by this change.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:33 PM by Hamlock
First Aid being baseline is a terrible idea and I don't like it. If the problem is disease, then add a "draught of disease cure" to the game and make it usable out of combat.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:36 PM by amnvex
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:23 PM
amnvex wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:16 PM
Delegator wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:18 PM
Let me get this straight -- we're talking about a power that people didn't spec for, and now suddenly it is the game-changing unbalancing ability? Seriously? If it was that great, people would have spent the points on it.

Whiners will whine. That's what I was thinking. Free ability to everyone and suddenly "omg no no no, you've ruined RvR, PvP in general, AND the whole Phoenix server!!"

To be honest everyone is not "everyone" in Daoc. Giving FA2 to a healer is not the same as giving it to a minstrel. This is a fact. So it is normal that someone will whine and someone else will celebrate. The issue is finding balance between the classes, and anyway some toons will get more love than other by this change.

Yeah, that may be true, but in that case, you may as well make it classless where you build your own character based on what lines are available. Oh, but it's gonna be unbalanced, too, won't it? There's no escape from this. Take for example range vs melee. Melee has always been disadvantaged at range when facing casters. The story changes almost completely when the fight starts at close range. A caster's odds of winning that one are slim. How are you going to balance this? The only "fix" to any of this is to give everyone equal ability. That means no range, all melee. Or no melee, all range. That's an inherent problem that isn't going away any time soon. You can't expect to be on equal footing. Just can't.

It's not anyone's fault that you think FA is worthless for your class. Apparently, everyone needs HP except for you because your HP is so pitiful. That 60% is actually not a tank's 60%, that's true. What's the solution? HP buff? Do casters really need more HP? For what? To snare/root/stun and run away? They're glass cannons. Why are you making them iron cannons?

I'll tell you what problem is and why you're whining: casters like you don't take FA because they ( "you" ) don't care how much HP they have left after a fight--all they care about is whether they can out-damage their opponent before they go down themselves. What happens after is YOLO.

CC-dependent classes like minst and skald and bard are so weak that their only chance of winning a fight is by stalling as much as possible. Can't blame them--it's how the classes were designed... you sacrifice damage output for utility (relatively speaking). Same for casters. Sacrifice HP for damage output. Melee? Sacrifice range for health and increase damage output for lack of other abilities. What would you prefer? To beef up low damage output classes' CC cast speed/duration instead? More health? How do you make make it more fair? It's all a trade off of some sort. Giving everyone an ability to heal is pretty good, IMO. Tanks benefit quite well from that if they solo. The same is true for stealthers. Casters, maybe not so much if all they care about is a quick RP gain and have no expectations to live beyond a few kills.

Edit: As for giving FA2 to a healer... I don't understand the problem. Since when are you soloing as a healer? Yes, you get minimal utility from it. But it helps in groups. It offloads the need to get healed yourself when you're not in combat. Everything has its time and place.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 4:00 PM by Mcnasty
HORRIBLE change. WTF are you GM's smokin'? I'd like some.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 4:10 PM by PedrotheButcher
First aid 2 free for every class...

what a terrible thing

jezus
Wed 23 Sep 2020 4:23 PM by Svekt
tireless 1 and long wind 1 great changes and it should be left at that.

Every time you make a change it effects someone else down the road and it’s a vicious cycle of changes from there.

Example: charge items received nerf down to 50 from 75. This prevented other archers from obtaining the same dexquick buff as rangers and immediately gave rangers an advantage. Then down the road you removed Mastery of the Arcane’s effect on charge items which allowed the ranger to benefit from MOA but not anyone one who uses the now 50 value charge....

This is just ONE example of a trickle down effect but let’s just remember which class has a balance problem atm...

All I’m saying is , some of these ideas sound great in theory but every time you mess with the balance of mythic characters it becomes a shit show.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 4:32 PM by Kwall0311
Svekt wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 4:23 PM
tireless 1 and long wind 1 great changes and it should be left at that.

Every time you make a change it effects someone else down the road and it’s a vicious cycle of changes from there.

Example: charge items received nerf down to 50 from 75. This prevented other archers from obtaining the same dexquick buff as rangers and immediately gave rangers an advantage. Then down the road you removed Mastery of the Arcane’s effect on charge items which allowed the ranger to benefit from MOA but not anyone one who uses the now 50 value charge....

This is just ONE example of a trickle down effect but let’s just remember which class has a balance problem atm...

All I’m saying is , some of these ideas sound great in theory but every time you mess with the balance of mythic characters it becomes a shit show.

100% . They are not thinking of how this will change things. And it seems like they stick with the " if it turns out to have a negative impact on actual combat an additional 5 - 20 second timer might be added to the current out of combat requirement. " It effects kiting classes that have been using this ability since the beginning . Terribly and not thought out idea.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 4:38 PM by Bry
Yet another albion favored change "for all classes." Scouts with perma kite (yes, the free RA shield trip that isn't supposed to be in the game) and minstrels get free points to spend on something else now to perma kite. Skalds will benefit. Soloers benefit. But most of all, Alb wins this one. Can you guys please focus on balance rather than just alb-favored changes.

Allow skalds, wardens, and bards 2 chants/songs like you have given to pallys and minstrels.
Allow wardens and shamans to have greater heals and spec group heals.
Remove spell lines from earth wizards (they still have EIGHT spell lines in just the earth spec; COMPLETELY IMBALANCED, they dont need nearsight, ao dots, aoe snare nuke)
Put a cooldown on shield trip for scouts. Spammable melee root with no immunity or cooldown is completely broken.

Work on the problems that exist instead of adding new ones.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 4:56 PM by Valaraukar
amnvex wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:36 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:23 PM
amnvex wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:16 PM
Delegator wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:18 PM
Let me get this straight -- we're talking about a power that people didn't spec for, and now suddenly it is the game-changing unbalancing ability? Seriously? If it was that great, people would have spent the points on it.

Whiners will whine. That's what I was thinking. Free ability to everyone and suddenly "omg no no no, you've ruined RvR, PvP in general, AND the whole Phoenix server!!"

To be honest everyone is not "everyone" in Daoc. Giving FA2 to a healer is not the same as giving it to a minstrel. This is a fact. So it is normal that someone will whine and someone else will celebrate. The issue is finding balance between the classes, and anyway some toons will get more love than other by this change.

Yeah, that may be true, but in that case, you may as well make it classless where you build your own character based on what lines are available. Oh, but it's gonna be unbalanced, too, won't it? There's no escape from this. Take for example range vs melee. Melee has always been disadvantaged at range when facing casters. The story changes almost completely when the fight starts at close range. A caster's odds of winning that one are slim. How are you going to balance this? The only "fix" to any of this is to give everyone equal ability. That means no range, all melee. Or no melee, all range. That's an inherent problem that isn't going away any time soon. You can't expect to be on equal footing. Just can't.

It's not anyone's fault that you think FA is worthless for your class. Apparently, everyone needs HP except for you because your HP is so pitiful. That 60% is actually not a tank's 60%, that's true. What's the solution? HP buff? Do casters really need more HP? For what? To snare/root/stun and run away? They're glass cannons. Why are you making them iron cannons?

I'll tell you what problem is and why you're whining: casters like you don't take FA because they ( "you" ) don't care how much HP they have left after a fight--all they care about is whether they can out-damage their opponent before they go down themselves. What happens after is YOLO.

CC-dependent classes like minst and skald and bard are so weak that their only chance of winning a fight is by stalling as much as possible. Can't blame them--it's how the classes were designed... you sacrifice damage output for utility (relatively speaking). Same for casters. Sacrifice HP for damage output. Melee? Sacrifice range for health and increase damage output for lack of other abilities. What would you prefer? To beef up low damage output classes' CC cast speed/duration instead? More health? How do you make make it more fair? It's all a trade off of some sort. Giving everyone an ability to heal is pretty good, IMO. Tanks benefit quite well from that if they solo. The same is true for stealthers. Casters, maybe not so much if all they care about is a quick RP gain and have no expectations to live beyond a few kills.

Edit: As for giving FA2 to a healer... I don't understand the problem. Since when are you soloing as a healer? Yes, you get minimal utility from it. But it helps in groups. It offloads the need to get healed yourself when you're not in combat. Everything has its time and place.

Hey I'm not whining at all.... I'm just trying to find something that is balanced for everyone. I've mentioned the healer not because I have one but to give an example of a class that won't get much from a free FA2.
I just said that FA would be great, but not to heal 60% (every 3 mins) and with a few seconds of cooldown since combat. It would be too easy for "kiters" classes and stealthers, that's all.

And if you say that "solo" skalds and minstrels sacrifice damage output.... weeell what can I say, try to face them in one vs one and we'll talk again about it
Wed 23 Sep 2020 5:59 PM by Faan
Delegator wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 2:18 PM
Let me get this straight -- we're talking about a power that people didn't spec for, and now suddenly it is the game-changing unbalancing ability? Seriously? If it was that great, people would have spent the points on it.

I think the biggest benefit will be to people in the stealth wars, being able to get rid of disease before minutes are up, but literally everybody can benefit if they get out of combat. Healers...generally not in combat anyway (they can use MCL, right?). CC...yup that means the bazillion classes with mez and stun of some sort. The main thing will be that pet classes need to control their pets. And I do worry about dealing with scouts and the infinite snare even more now.
I dont know if u ever ran around in RvR, but i seen so many Skalds and Minstrels using it. My Skald had FA2 since 5l2 and my Minstrel(6l3 yet) just doesnt have it, cause there are more important RAs. I ran alot in groups so i go with melodies4 rn but if i didnt have melodies i´d have my points for FA2 for sure
Wed 23 Sep 2020 6:00 PM by Faan
Hamlock wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 3:33 PM
First Aid being baseline is a terrible idea and I don't like it. If the problem is disease, then add a "draught of disease cure" to the game and make it usable out of combat.
damn Draught of disease cure is a great idea!
Wed 23 Sep 2020 6:04 PM by DinoTriz
Devs: *give 3 RAs for free to everyone*

Players: "Why would you buff the opposing realm like that??"
Wed 23 Sep 2020 6:08 PM by Toss
Just put All albs to Auto RR5 while ure at it. Feels like the core of the game is rottening while focusing on other gimmicky things like this. All can be seen an heard in this thread, and equally ignored
Wed 23 Sep 2020 6:12 PM by tommccartney
Tireless and LW is a good idea

Free FA2 isn’t a good idea it will change the dynamic of too many fights, in a bad way I believe.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 8:24 PM by Iuppiter
LW/tireless - yes, minimal effect + helps lower level/rank players

FA2 w/ disease cure - no, especially without an additional timer - many people regularly get and use MCL - it's not difficult to get out of combat even in a normal fight, and this would potentially change too many aspects of the game to be given for free. Yes it existed before, and yes it was not used except by a few classes - but it also never had a disease cure component. IMO either nix this idea or add the disease cure component and retain the RA skillpoint cost and reevaluate from there.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 8:58 PM by JaggedOne
Great changes !!!!
Whiners be silent...
Wed 23 Sep 2020 9:49 PM by Renork
It’s not like they can’t revert or change things if this is too game changing. For having such a big adult player base, you all sure behave like whiny children.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 9:52 PM by thirian24
Renork wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 9:49 PM
It’s not like they can’t revert or change things if this is too game changing. For having such a big adult player base, you all sure behave like whiny children.

Just like the game breaking archery changes that people bitched about forever? How long has that been going on?
Wed 23 Sep 2020 10:06 PM by Prometheus
I like the long wind/tireless change, free first aid/cure disease would have a major impact in RvR.
Wed 23 Sep 2020 10:12 PM by Myr
I think a few of the class changes implemented should be re-evaluated before adding anything else. Baseline fa doesn’t sound fun
Wed 23 Sep 2020 10:53 PM by Nauglamir
Not really qol, rather a massive change for solo rvr.
Just because most players don't specc the RA - how bout mopain / momagery, not really worth it according to common opinion as well, not any more :-P

Could just lower disease poison duration to 1 minute and increase hp regeneration rates on tinders, if that's what it's all about.
Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:05 AM by daytonchambers
Tireless and LW change - love it

FA change? free FA1 is fine, but add the disease cure at FA2+ and make those that want fa2 or higher pay for it with spec points
Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:45 AM by gotwqqd
I’d say free LW/tireless & purge 1
Thu 24 Sep 2020 3:47 AM by easytoremember
Lev wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:50 PM
why change a existing RA and not introduce the solution to the problem you want to solve
Because it is an RA across all classes that saw almost no use, and among most classes did see zero use
Edit: I am annoyed FA is free though

I hope the next to see love is Adrenaline Rush
Thu 24 Sep 2020 5:33 AM by imweasel
I don't get the FA "change".

If the thinking is that people didn't take it because it was to expensive, then why not change the cost? Or change the way it worked? Or half a dozen different possibilities?

Why suddenly make it free?

This will make minstrels, skalds (possibly other CC classes), stealth classes (especially assassins) amd possibly who knows what other classes even more OP.
Thu 24 Sep 2020 6:04 AM by Lynee
I'm fine with tireless/LW change, but the free active RAs give me a slight stomach ache because I'm thinking: what will be next? Purge2?

If FA is free the reuse timer should possibly increased. Or limit to FA1 only.
The cure disease part is odd - what is this meant to be, a purge for disease to circumvent the endless duration of assassin poisons? Not a fan, the fix for this is probably somewhere else.
Thu 24 Sep 2020 7:05 AM by Tyrlaan
Bry wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 4:38 PM
Yet another albion favored change "for all classes." Scouts with perma kite (yes, the free RA shield trip that isn't supposed to be in the game) and minstrels get free points to spend on something else now to perma kite. Skalds will benefit. Soloers benefit. But most of all, Alb wins this one. Can you guys please focus on balance rather than just alb-favored changes.

Actually Champs and VWs could make very good use of it. So can any class with Ichor which - being uninterruptable - can be used as an in-combat root - and Hib has a couple more Ichor classes than the other realms. A snare/root allows to get out of rupt range to FA (you can be out of combat as early as 10 seconds after applying the CC) while the snare effect on your opponent (like any CC effect btw) will keep the out-of-combat timer down until 10 seconds after the CC has ended. Neither Reavers nor Friars nor Wardens nor Thanes can do that. Reavers could try to TWF but it´s usually not enough of a snare (duration-wise once leaving the radius) to get out of rupt range.

And I´m very against this free FA2 (and free cure disease). It´s changing RvR way too much. Just because people didn´t spec it as a first choice (because with a cost applied people are weighing it vs. other choices to spend RSPs) doesn´t mean it isn´t breaking things. I also think people should need some time to recover from fights and not be cleared of disease and back to full health (this FA + a heal pot/legion charge) a minute later.
Thu 24 Sep 2020 7:11 AM by Sepplord
snares don't keep you in combat, and rooted players can stealth so that also doesn't keep you in combat

with roots, best case is that both players use FA
Thu 24 Sep 2020 7:57 AM by Symptomettes
I really like the QOL for tireless and Longwind but i don't think it's a good idea to allow FA2 or even FA1 free. And i don't even talk about the cure disease, it should stay as it is cause it's gonna have way too much impact in RvR. Solo and small man fights are already well balance, there is no need to give some tool to recover 60% health. It will just force everyone to kite more and more and it will not be healthy for the server... Even if you up the timer for using it after the end of the fight people will still trying to recover in kiting more and more until they can cure disease and go back fighting.

Tons of RA are not worth spending points in it and it should not be a reason to change how FA works. Depending on the class it can be a must have. I would have understand if Second wind or The empty mind was reworked, because in comparison those two are pretty much useless. Instead FA is well balanced here.

You can make it a PVE thing by allowing it in PVE zone for free and need to invest the same amount of points as it is right now to works in both RvR and PVE.

Keep up with the good work and the ideas you try to introduce
Thu 24 Sep 2020 9:39 AM by facekidd
from a minstrel perspective its just really really bad idea. I don't want extra 9 points compared to having ns's with extra first aid.. they are too overpowered as it is if they add this you really should remove NS ranged nukes. kind of giving hibs a massive boost. when hibs are already the strongest, will slow game play and even 8 v 8 will be extended.

if this idea was to help people levelling from lvl 24 then have it drop at lvl 50...

RvR dose not need any more healing omg
Thu 24 Sep 2020 10:27 AM by facekidd
really should have read though the 7 other pages of this thread before voicing my opinion.

all i have read is 90% people hating it and 10% of posts trolling those 90%

haven't actually seen anyone saying "oh I like that idea" or "oh' that's good"

totally agree devs have lost there minds.. and will ignore all 90%. So... yeah .... go .. us? <puzzled look>

would love to see the Revivifying elixirs <Cure disease pots> Revivifying salvos <group heal pots> that are on live server over here in agreement with most posters on this one
Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:21 PM by Kwall0311
@Uthred @Gruenes_schaf Whatever you decide to do, which i hope is listen to everyone here and not do anything. You cant do this

" an additional 5 - 20 second timer might be added to the current out of combat requirement."

and absoutely gut this ability that players have been using forever, just because others didnt want to spec in it. This is not your answer to the disease timers. You simply have this one wrong by a long shot.
Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:38 PM by Bradekes
Even with all the arguments and posts on this thread I still think this is a good idea, FA for free with disease cure really supports solos being in the RvR BG. Getting a group can take awhile to happen and when you constantly have no speed or heals and you're trying to keep up and put in an effort having this tool would really help.

Not to mention a way to mitigate all that siege and GTAoE dmg that ticks your life away slowly but surely in keep fights.

Anyone saying that they trained in it and they don't want others having it for free are ones that can abuse the ability to begin with. Like minstrels and skalds. Because they kite and dd and have their pet killing all they gotta do is make sure they have hp and their life is easy. They are too afraid of a real challenge or something that takes them out of their i-win comfort zone
Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:52 PM by inoeth
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:38 PM
Even with all the arguments and posts on this thread I still think this is a good idea, FA for free with disease cure really supports solos being in the RvR BG. Getting a group can take awhile to happen and when you constantly have no speed or heals and you're trying to keep up and put in an effort having this tool would really help.

Anyone saying that they trained in it and they don't want others having it for free are ones that can abuse the ability to begin with. Like minstrels and skalds. Because they kite and dd and have their pet killing all they gotta do is make sure they have hp and their life is easy. They are too afraid of a real challenge or something that takes them out of their i-win comfort zone

the point is that they get free extra 9 spec points and not that others have it too. these two classes can use FA because they can get out of combat while the opponent cant.
imo FA is already too strong and cheap for skalds/minst and they would get it for free then....

another problem are assassins which can simply reset fights with vanish+FA after the opponent fired purge+IP. you might say: ok then use FA too but thats not the same, for some classes it is essential to have ip+purge up vs assassins and FA wont help there.
it massivly shifts balance towards classes who have the tools to benefit from it in fight.

tbh 2 min desease timer sucks but free FA for everyone sucks even more.
Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:58 PM by Bradekes
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:52 PM
the point is that they get free extra 9 spec points and not that others have it too. these two classes can use FA because they can get out of combat while the opponent cant.
imo FA is already too strong and cheap for skalds/minst and they would get it for free then....

another problem are assassins which can simply reset fights with vanish+FA after the opponent fired purge+IP. you might say: ok then use FA too but thats not the same, for some classes it is essential to have ip+purge up vs assassins and FA wont help there.
it massivly shifts balance towards classes who have the tools to benefit from it in fight.

tbh 2 min desease timer sucks but free FA for everyone sucks even more.

An assassin can't just reset a fight... if they use vanish they can't do anything to you for 30seconds. You can literally use fa and walk away from them.. or rest up to full hp by sitting.. 2min disease is way worse that's a death sentence.
Thu 24 Sep 2020 1:31 PM by Noashakra
Everyone agree that Lw and tireless. It's a good change.

FA on the other hand is terrible. We already increased the ttk, and now you want to give a free 60% heal? Solo is already hard enough... And like it was said before, mincer and skalds benefit the most of it.

We asked for lower disease timer and/or a cure disease with something like a 5sec fixed cast. How is that more broken than this change?

Lots of RA are not popular, and it's ok. Next step is also to give them for free?
Thu 24 Sep 2020 2:26 PM by evert
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:38 PM
Anyone saying that they trained in it and they don't want others having it for free are ones that can abuse the ability to begin with. Like minstrels and skalds. Because they kite and dd and have their pet killing all they gotta do is make sure they have hp and their life is easy. They are too afraid of a real challenge or something that takes them out of their i-win comfort zone

I like the use of the word "abuse" here. I think what you mean is "use".
Thu 24 Sep 2020 2:35 PM by Basilisk
Honestly why do all this extra stuff. Do what live did and give crafters a potion to cure a single charge of disease on player. Or make it a new Phoenix Claw item to use to cure it. Do NOT do this FA change it’s too much.

Also in a fight perspective. You’re giving casuals too much credit for FA since it’s ability to be used has to be out of combat so again, mini and skald will benefit the most from this due to cc and the ability to have FA. Most everyone else will have to snare and kite etc to be Ben be able to use it. If you’re diseased you aren’t kiting a thing..... and since you can’t use FA in combat. What’s it gonna do for players?
Thu 24 Sep 2020 2:59 PM by Bradekes
evert wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Sep 2020 2:26 PM
I like the use of the word "abuse" here. I think what you mean is "use".

How about "unfairly" or "having IP on 3min timer"
Thu 24 Sep 2020 3:11 PM by Basilisk
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Sep 2020 2:59 PM
evert wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Sep 2020 2:26 PM
I like the use of the word "abuse" here. I think what you mean is "use".

How about "unfairly" or "having IP on 3min timer"

FA isn’t like IP. IP is meant to heal thru disease and not be affected by it. FA was affected by disease. So they are basically reworking a whole ability. Giving it to people for free, giving mini/skald more points to use so now they can get both at a cheaper cost making lower rr mini/skald stronger by giving everyone the same bs like live did. This change is crap imo. They need to just bring in cure potions similar to live. Hell I’d bet they have the coding to implement it too rather than having it affect an ability.

That and I’d be willing to bet that way way way less people use Adrenaline Rush. So why isn’t everyone getting that RA as a handout since we were trying to base numbers of players using an ability for them to get it for free with this?
Thu 24 Sep 2020 3:54 PM by Bobbahunter
Put FA1 on the same kind of pvp timer that is put on the castable horse. You can’t even stealth and unstealth without it resetting the timer.
Thu 24 Sep 2020 5:54 PM by Tamy
I totally agree regarding tire/lw but the free fa2 is basically a nerf for solo players. Sure, the disease problem would be solved (but it could also be solved by just lower the disease duration).

Especially as a non-stealther solo player I'm often forced into 1v2+ which can also involve kiting (I specced fa1 on my reaver for example). With the free hp boost the TTK will just get higher, ergo higher chances for even more adds and in the end in many cases less rp's for me. In my eyes it's basically a buff for zergers/bridge campers. If that's the intention fine, I will have to live with that. But according to the opening post it should be a buff for players like myself. I really don't see that.
Thu 24 Sep 2020 7:39 PM by Kwall0311
^^ While that is true, they also need to get the thought of raising its out of combat use timer out of their heads.
Thu 24 Sep 2020 8:04 PM by Astaa
Excellent changes.
Thu 24 Sep 2020 8:16 PM by floodie
Not a fan of this for small mans and group/8v8 action.

Solo I think it's a great change.

I'd also consider putting forth the bonus RPs from the event up to 5L5 in the NF zone.
Thu 24 Sep 2020 11:06 PM by Rov
Can we have a ingame vote for this first aid 2 change please?
Fri 25 Sep 2020 12:04 AM by gotwqqd
Rov wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Sep 2020 11:06 PM
Can we have a ingame vote for this first aid 2 change please?
I think change FA2 to Purge 1
Fri 25 Sep 2020 1:40 AM by Freakzilla
I guess we need to make changes then and give free MCL too..
Fri 25 Sep 2020 2:15 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Freakzilla wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 1:40 AM
I guess we need to make changes then and give free MCL too..

No.

Everyone has life, not everyone has power.

Second Wind is on a base fifteen minute timer, but MCL is on a three minute one; if they're going to give away MCL on that timer, they need to give away Second Wind 4 as well.
Fri 25 Sep 2020 7:30 AM by Sepplord
almost noone buys FA, that's why they decided to give it for free (just saying, not that i agree)
The same logic doesn't apply to MCL
Fri 25 Sep 2020 8:50 AM by gotwqqd
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 7:30 AM
almost noone buys FA, that's why they decided to give it for free (just saying, not that i agree)
The same logic doesn't apply to MCL
As LW/tireless are pretty standard...as purge 2 is the most universally used RA
Give everyone purge 1 for free @35 instead of FA2
Or drop FA2 to FA1
Fri 25 Sep 2020 9:31 AM by Centenario
I think these are great changes, worthy of the old Mythic team.
Things have always improved in DAoC, not always correctly, but this feels like a change that could have been a great change back then if the game would have become more like Phoenix.

It is true that as a Cleric I can use MCL all the time, its a great RA, it feels a little bit bugged too ^^
I never even thought that First Aid could be the same, I will be happy to try it.
If FA is the same as MCL but for HP, it will be nice!

Legion Heart + Pot + FA that will put me <5L at a more "Level Playing Field"

I also created a post with similar suggestions:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/25785-free-ras

Giving free purge 2 (similar to LW/Tireless) must have!
Giving free stage 1 of the class abilities (ST, Maelstrom, Ichor)
Giving GroupHeal Instant Abilities for support healers (shaman/friar/warden)
Giving Volley and Vanish for free to stealthers

These abilities add flavor to each class, and are usually forgotten until RR5, cause you are forced to get on a level playing field with casting speed, attack speed, buffbonus, det, purge, etc... before flavor abilities, which is sad
Fri 25 Sep 2020 9:43 AM by inoeth
Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 9:31 AM
I think these are great changes, worthy of the old Mythic team.
Things have always improved in DAoC, not always correctly, but this feels like a change that could have been a great change back then if the game would have become more like Phoenix.

It is true that as a Cleric I can use MCL all the time, its a great RA, it feels a little bit bugged too ^^
I never even thought that First Aid could be the same, I will be happy to try it.
If FA is the same as MCL but for HP, it will be nice!

Legion Heart + Pot + FA that will put me <5L at a more "Level Playing Field"

I also created a post with similar suggestions:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/25785-free-ras

Giving free purge 2 (similar to LW/Tireless) must have!
Giving free stage 1 of the class abilities (ST, Maelstrom, Ichor)
Giving GroupHeal Instant Abilities for support healers (shaman/friar/warden)
Giving Volley and Vanish for free to stealthers

These abilities add flavor to each class, and are usually forgotten until RR5, cause you are forced to get on a level playing field with casting speed, attack speed, buffbonus, det, purge, etc... before flavor abilities, which is sad

you need to mark this as satire
Fri 25 Sep 2020 9:45 AM by Centenario
inoeth wrote: you need to mark this as satire

Fri 25 Sep 2020 11:56 AM by opossum12
I don't like the change to FA.

It is a solo oriented RA that people geared and specced to solo will buy and use 99% of the time.

Giving it to everyone else is a problem because now it puts everyone on a level playing field, regardless of spec and playstyle orientation.

I gimp myself in groups by building my RAs for solo play, so to have a group oriented player get access to solo oriented RAs for free is unfair.

For some classes the use of FA and managing it's cooldown is critical to the class success. Allowing the other player to always counter FA your FA is causing an imbalance.
Fri 25 Sep 2020 12:07 PM by Bradekes
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 11:56 AM
I don't like the change to FA.

It is a solo oriented RA that people geared and specced to solo will buy and use 99% of the time.

Giving it to everyone else is a problem because now it puts everyone on a level playing field, regardless of spec and playstyle orientation.

I gimp myself in groups by building my RAs for solo play, so to have a group oriented player get access to solo oriented RAs for free is unfair.

For some classes the use of FA and managing it's cooldown is critical to the class success. Allowing the other player to always counter FA your FA is causing an imbalance.

By your logic here you wouldn't have to gimp yourself for group play anymore and you'd have a much more balanced toon for grouping and solo play. Sounds like a win win to me?

Also you said it puts everyone on an even playing field which sounds like balance.

I'm thinking they need to try free FA and see how it goes, it really sounds like a good logical idea and opens a lot of options for people that don't play traditionally.
Fri 25 Sep 2020 2:17 PM by Kwall0311
Theres nothing to test. Its a lose lose anyway you look at it.

And the potential increase time to kill is also bad. And if they stick with the answer to balance things to extend its reuse combat timer it makes it completely useless to the kite classes that use it already.

And for those of you looking at this as a way to cure your disease after a fight this is NOT the answer, it changes too many things. Add the revivifying elixir OOC cure pot, put it on a 20 second OOC and 10 second cast or something.

Please dont destroy a RA that the classes who would gladly pay for use. The comment that FA is rarely used shouldnt even be considered.
Fri 25 Sep 2020 2:46 PM by yepyukon
I am actually for the change as is. If they were to change FA2, I would like to see it become either Purge 1 or some type of omni-heal with ~25% back to health/end/power.
Fri 25 Sep 2020 3:32 PM by Bradekes
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 2:17 PM
Theres nothing to test. Its a lose lose anyway you look at it.

And the potential increase time to kill is also bad. And if they stick with the answer to balance things to extend its reuse combat timer it makes it completely useless to the kite classes that use it already.

And for those of you looking at this as a way to cure your disease after a fight this is NOT the answer, it changes too many things. Add the revivifying elixir OOC cure pot, put it on a 20 second OOC and 10 second cast or something.

Please dont destroy a RA that the classes who would gladly pay for use. The comment that FA is rarely used shouldnt even be considered.

I don't want a solution that requires MORE POTS
Fri 25 Sep 2020 3:37 PM by Kwall0311
Ok then add something similar to the champion level disease cure . Point is they can address that issue which is a "loud concern" without completely destroying what first aid is because "its not so popular" compared to the other ones. If people dont want to train that thats their problem, why change the way things have been forever and create more balance issues with solo. Terrible not thought out idea
Fri 25 Sep 2020 4:22 PM by evert
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 3:32 PM
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 2:17 PM
Theres nothing to test. Its a lose lose anyway you look at it.

And the potential increase time to kill is also bad. And if they stick with the answer to balance things to extend its reuse combat timer it makes it completely useless to the kite classes that use it already.

And for those of you looking at this as a way to cure your disease after a fight this is NOT the answer, it changes too many things. Add the revivifying elixir OOC cure pot, put it on a 20 second OOC and 10 second cast or something.

Please dont destroy a RA that the classes who would gladly pay for use. The comment that FA is rarely used shouldnt even be considered.

I don't want a solution that requires MORE POTS

They then can just add a new RA/ability! Called "clear disease" or whatever. Just don't mess with FA.
Fri 25 Sep 2020 5:03 PM by Tubby
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:26 PM
FA change not so good, it's a nerf for skalds/minstrels basically. I would suggest giving FA1 (with disease removal) for free and keep FA2/FA3 as speccable. This gives some utility to everyone but keeps the option to specialise in it for those classes that can use it as a strategy.

This is a massive buff for scalds and minstrels the 2 classes that make great use out of it now have it for free??
Fri 25 Sep 2020 8:07 PM by Cruella
You should be consequent with free FA and let every class benefit from it.

Lower it to FA1 and let it cure nearsight + desease.
Fri 25 Sep 2020 10:48 PM by gotwqqd
I think the cure component should reset immunity to off
Fri 25 Sep 2020 11:27 PM by opossum12
Tubby wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 5:03 PM
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:26 PM
FA change not so good, it's a nerf for skalds/minstrels basically. I would suggest giving FA1 (with disease removal) for free and keep FA2/FA3 as speccable. This gives some utility to everyone but keeps the option to specialise in it for those classes that can use it as a strategy.

This is a massive buff for scalds and minstrels the 2 classes that make great use out of it now have it for free??

Again what was discussed is that it is a buff and a nerf at the same time.

Yes skalds and minstrels, classes that rely on resets to kill stuff, get more RA points to spend on other things. Howe er, the whole point of FA is getting out of combat to use it, so.now the only way for a skald or mini tonuse it effectively is when the opponent is mezzed. It becomes much more restrictive, which in turn is a nerf.
Sat 26 Sep 2020 2:33 AM by boridi
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 11:27 PM
Tubby wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 5:03 PM
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:26 PM
FA change not so good, it's a nerf for skalds/minstrels basically. I would suggest giving FA1 (with disease removal) for free and keep FA2/FA3 as speccable. This gives some utility to everyone but keeps the option to specialise in it for those classes that can use it as a strategy.

This is a massive buff for scalds and minstrels the 2 classes that make great use out of it now have it for free??

Again what was discussed is that it is a buff and a nerf at the same time.

Yes skalds and minstrels, classes that rely on resets to kill stuff, get more RA points to spend on other things. Howe er, the whole point of FA is getting out of combat to use it, so.now the only way for a skald or mini tonuse it effectively is when the opponent is mezzed. It becomes much more restrictive, which in turn is a nerf.
They already have to mez/snare/kite the opponent to get out of combat for First Aid. Don't think that's changing.
Sat 26 Sep 2020 6:34 AM by evert
boridi wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Sep 2020 2:33 AM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 11:27 PM
Tubby wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 5:03 PM
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:26 PM
FA change not so good, it's a nerf for skalds/minstrels basically. I would suggest giving FA1 (with disease removal) for free and keep FA2/FA3 as speccable. This gives some utility to everyone but keeps the option to specialise in it for those classes that can use it as a strategy.

This is a massive buff for scalds and minstrels the 2 classes that make great use out of it now have it for free??

Again what was discussed is that it is a buff and a nerf at the same time.

Yes skalds and minstrels, classes that rely on resets to kill stuff, get more RA points to spend on other things. Howe er, the whole point of FA is getting out of combat to use it, so.now the only way for a skald or mini tonuse it effectively is when the opponent is mezzed. It becomes much more restrictive, which in turn is a nerf.
They already have to mez/snare/kite the opponent to get out of combat for First Aid. Don't think that's changing.

How is it so hard to understand... if you snare an opponent or sos, they can FA too. So those are no longer valid strategies. Which leaves mezz, which is purged 95% of the time.
Sat 26 Sep 2020 11:44 AM by boridi
evert wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Sep 2020 6:34 AM
boridi wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Sep 2020 2:33 AM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 11:27 PM
Tubby wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 5:03 PM
evert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:26 PM
FA change not so good, it's a nerf for skalds/minstrels basically. I would suggest giving FA1 (with disease removal) for free and keep FA2/FA3 as speccable. This gives some utility to everyone but keeps the option to specialise in it for those classes that can use it as a strategy.

This is a massive buff for scalds and minstrels the 2 classes that make great use out of it now have it for free??

Again what was discussed is that it is a buff and a nerf at the same time.

Yes skalds and minstrels, classes that rely on resets to kill stuff, get more RA points to spend on other things. Howe er, the whole point of FA is getting out of combat to use it, so.now the only way for a skald or mini tonuse it effectively is when the opponent is mezzed. It becomes much more restrictive, which in turn is a nerf.
They already have to mez/snare/kite the opponent to get out of combat for First Aid. Don't think that's changing.

How is it so hard to understand... if you snare an opponent or sos, they can FA too. So those are no longer valid strategies. Which leaves mezz, which is purged 95% of the time.

They can't FA too if the minstrel pet is attacking them
Sat 26 Sep 2020 1:59 PM by Horus
Just remove the endurance bar. It is a joke here anyway. It used to be something to manage. Now it is meaningless. Everyone has perm sprint and perma styles.

When was the last time you even thought about endurance or ran out in PvP?
Sat 26 Sep 2020 2:04 PM by gotwqqd
Horus wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Sep 2020 1:59 PM
Just remove the endurance bar. It is a joke here anyway. It used to be something to manage. Now it is meaningless. Everyone has perm sprint and perma styles.

When was the last time you even thought about endurance or ran out in PvP?
There are a few classes that can blow their wad
Sat 26 Sep 2020 9:19 PM by boridi
Horus wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Sep 2020 1:59 PM
Just remove the endurance bar. It is a joke here anyway. It used to be something to manage. Now it is meaningless. Everyone has perm sprint and perma styles.

When was the last time you even thought about endurance or ran out in PvP?
When I am sprinting + slamming/doublefrosting/garroting with end potion. Not a problem with red end from shaman.
Sat 26 Sep 2020 9:24 PM by Cadebrennus
Horus wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Sep 2020 1:59 PM
Just remove the endurance bar. It is a joke here anyway. It used to be something to manage. Now it is meaningless. Everyone has perm sprint and perma styles.

When was the last time you even thought about endurance or ran out in PvP?

Sad but true
Sun 27 Sep 2020 5:16 AM by Nauglamir
Horus wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Sep 2020 1:59 PM
Just remove the endurance bar. It is a joke here anyway. It used to be something to manage. Now it is meaningless. Everyone has perm sprint and perma styles.

When was the last time you even thought about endurance or ran out in PvP?

Every time I fight and forget to deactivate sprint at opportune moments.
No endu 5 here, tho.
Mon 28 Sep 2020 10:36 AM by inoeth
so no free FA now? great!
Mon 28 Sep 2020 11:59 AM by Noashakra
Thank you for listening and not giving FA, and only LW and tireless.
Mon 28 Sep 2020 12:03 PM by imweasel
Where did they say no free FA now?
Mon 28 Sep 2020 12:06 PM by Noashakra
imweasel wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 12:03 PM
Where did they say no free FA now?
https://forum.playphoenix.online/server/news/26323-2020-09-28-monday
Mon 28 Sep 2020 12:55 PM by imweasel
Thanks!
Mon 28 Sep 2020 6:03 PM by Calconious
Please still add disease cure to FA or a potion or something. That's all I really wanted out of this.
Mon 28 Sep 2020 6:58 PM by bluefalcon420
Reduce poison disease duration by 1 minute is all we really need.

I shouldn't kill someone at beno docks and still be diseased at the end of a hlid boat ride.

That's just silly.
Mon 28 Sep 2020 10:02 PM by Lilou07
I think you did great!
But yeah disease poison doesn't have to be that long a 1min reduction would make everybody happy
Mon 28 Sep 2020 11:02 PM by Freedomcall
Good decision devs.
Free LW/Tireless was good update.

For curing disease, I think adding curing disease potion that works in same mechanic with mounts would be pretty nice.
Maybe it can be reduced to 30 sec after combat in rvr for that potion.
Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:20 AM by Tamy
Agreed, thanks for not implementing free FA2 for everyone. I'd rather take the higher disease duration (although a simple fix would be to just lower the disease duration to 1 or 2min).
Wed 30 Sep 2020 12:01 PM by imweasel
Tamy wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:20 AM
Agreed, thanks for not implementing free FA2 for everyone. I'd rather take the higher disease duration (although a simple fix would be to just lower the disease duration to 1 or 2min).

Unfortunately, the devs never do anything else but go to extremes to fix/nerf anything.

If they thought to few toons were taking FA, why not make it cheaper? Like 2 rps for level 1, 4 or 5 rps for level 2 and 6-8 rps for level 3?

But no, we have to take a favorite class (and ones that can take advantage of this ability the most) and give them 9 free rps.

I mean really, who thought that free FA2 was a good idea to begin with?
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