Bard ability to have instant Amnesia 2300 RANGE

Started 4 Sep 2018
by ecopli
in RvR
I see a lot of rework class (Minstrel!);
Can you speak now about the Hibernia BARD ?

Why Hibernia can have 2 instant amnesia RANGE 2300 for break speed; when midgard and albion can't do this.

Possible changement:
- choice 1; instant range 1000/1500 ?
- choice 2; Castable spell ?;
- choice 3; Don't break speed;
- choice 4; Usable only in combat;
- choice 5: Don't change it's cheated but stay like that;

Please, change this "for the balance of RvR"
Tue 4 Sep 2018 4:15 PM by Ceen
ecopli wrote:
Tue 4 Sep 2018 4:05 PM
Can you speak now about the Hibernia BARD ?

Why Hibernia can have 2 instant amnesia RADIUS 2000 for break speed; when midgard and albion can't do this.


2000 radius is a bit imba, I would kinda adjust it to 325, but set the range to 2300.
That might balance the bard.
Tue 4 Sep 2018 4:18 PM by ecopli
Ceen wrote:
Tue 4 Sep 2018 4:15 PM
2000 radius is a bit imba, I would kinda adjust it to 325, but set the range to 2300.
That might balance the bard.
yes; change to 1700 is good way
Tue 4 Sep 2018 4:59 PM by Sayuri
range is actually 2300 not 2K :p
Tue 4 Sep 2018 5:52 PM by ecopli
Sayuri wrote:
Tue 4 Sep 2018 4:59 PM
range is actually 2300 not 2K :p
Oh my god, i understand now, why i lost speed h24.
2300 is Clipping/2 ...
Tue 4 Sep 2018 6:14 PM by Sayuri
yep its pretty op in insta specialy when hib grp have 2 bard
Tue 4 Sep 2018 7:39 PM by ecopli
Sayuri wrote:
Tue 4 Sep 2018 6:14 PM
yep its pretty op in insta specialy when hib grp have 2 bard
yes they will be nerfed soon i think, about debuff speed when amnesia.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:28 AM by Druth
2000+ insta ranged speedbreak is not okay in no way, and is one of those mechanics I dont think ever was intended but people learn and use because why not?

But also understand this is an old mechanic that might anger people if changed.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 8:06 AM by Leith
Well I play Bard myself, but it would be a good idea to lower the range or strip the speedbreaking component. I played skald one time with a sham friend and hibs -maybe through micro lags- catched us after a 4 minute chase and thanks to the range of amnesia (we and hibs had speed6).

Sucked pretty hard...
Wed 5 Sep 2018 8:17 AM by Ceen
They already altered speed break handling which is a key factor on the dynamics of fights. Changing amnesia will change whole hib play. But I am afraid a critical mass of three complains is already reached.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:27 AM by Norad
amnesia doesnt instantly break speed like other things, you will still have to wait for speed tick to finish. both for the bard and the player the amnesia is casted on.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:38 AM by Druth
Ceen wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 8:17 AM
Changing amnesia will change whole hib play.

Err... what?
Is breaking speed from 2300 range vital to hib play?
Do you mean vital to Hib zerging?
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:44 AM by Ceen
Druth wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:38 AM
Ceen wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 8:17 AM
Changing amnesia will change whole hib play.

Err... what?
Is breaking speed from 2300 range vital to hib play?
Do you mean vital to Hib zerging?
Yes Speed break is vital for every inc no matter the scale and amnesia is crucial for bard infight gameplay.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 11:41 AM by Sayuri
Norad wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:27 AM
amnesia doesnt instantly break speed like other things, you will still have to wait for speed tick to finish. both for the bard and the player the amnesia is casted on.

its funny cause with my skald amnesia kill my speed instantly and that happen only with bard amnesia
Wed 5 Sep 2018 12:53 PM by Druth
Ceen wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:44 AM
Yes Speed break is vital for every inc no matter the scale and amnesia is crucial for bard infight gameplay.

But why?
Why is it specificly vital to hibs, compared to mids/albs, to break speed on opponent at 2300 range? With delay it gets less I know.
I understand insta amnesia at 1850 range, to counter sorc bolt mez, but to make insta amnesia same range as a casted just seems excesive.

And why is 2300 range vital to bards for infight? I understand why they need insta interrupt, that does not break root.

I understand that it's powerfull, and that fiddling even slightly with the skills we tip the balance in 8v8.
But that aside, would there not be a way to balance this so groups/zergs can't catch smallman/groups by using this?
Wed 5 Sep 2018 2:54 PM by Norad
Sayuri wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 11:41 AM
Norad wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:27 AM
amnesia doesnt instantly break speed like other things, you will still have to wait for speed tick to finish. both for the bard and the player the amnesia is casted on.

its funny cause with my skald amnesia kill my speed instantly and that happen only with bard amnesia

you have bad luck then because it 100% doesnt break speed instantly
Wed 5 Sep 2018 3:03 PM by Ceen
Some people get zerged by amnesia I dont see that reason enough to alter yet another key mechanic.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:09 PM by Dathorn
The best part of this post is that it isn't even to change amnesia as a whole. It's just a nerf bards amnesia post. Every other realm should still have 2300 range amnesia, nerf just bards rofl. Just... just what? Lol. If you think bard's amnesia is overpowered then you need to look at the whole equation. Hib cannot spam amnesia to cancel out other realms MOCs. Mid/Alb have this ability. Hib can only amnesia to break speed every 10 seconds. Both other realms could break speed much more reliably. DAOC is a rock, paper, scissors game.

To change amnesia at all would be a huge mistake, and to nerf only bard amnesia is just flat out silly.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:18 PM by Druth
Dathorn wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:09 PM
The best part of this post isn't even to change amnesia. It's just a nerf bards amnesia post. Every other realm should still have 2300 range amnesia, nerf just bards rofl. Just... just what? Lol. If you think bard's amnesia is overpowered then you need to look at the whole equation. Hib cannot spam amnesia to cancel out other realms MOCs. Mid/Alb have this ability. Hib can only amnesia to break speed every 10 seconds. Both other realms could break speed much more reliably. DAOC is a rock, paper, scissors game.

To change amnesia at all would be a huge mistake, and to nerf only bard amnesia is just flat out silly.

Casted amnesia is better at breaking speed, I mean casted in that you have to stop and cast?
And I'd be fine with bards getting casted amnesia (and remove insta), if you think it's in any way better.

I don't want to nerf bards, I want to specificly nerf the ability to catch people from 2300 range.
But understand why you want to keep it, I think all realms would love that ability
Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:45 PM by Dathorn
Druth wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:18 PM
Dathorn wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:09 PM
The best part of this post isn't even to change amnesia. It's just a nerf bards amnesia post. Every other realm should still have 2300 range amnesia, nerf just bards rofl. Just... just what? Lol. If you think bard's amnesia is overpowered then you need to look at the whole equation. Hib cannot spam amnesia to cancel out other realms MOCs. Mid/Alb have this ability. Hib can only amnesia to break speed every 10 seconds. Both other realms could break speed much more reliably. DAOC is a rock, paper, scissors game.

To change amnesia at all would be a huge mistake, and to nerf only bard amnesia is just flat out silly.

Casted amnesia is better at breaking speed, I mean casted in that you have to stop and cast?
And I'd be fine with bards getting casted amnesia (and remove insta), if you think it's in any way better.

I don't want to nerf bards, I want to specificly nerf the ability to catch people from 2300 range.
But understand why you want to keep it, I think all realms would love that ability

You are not the OP, my comments are not in relation to yours. Do you know what OP means in this context? I didn't say anything about what you want, and ,frankly, I don't care what you want. The forum does not revolve around you. The original post is to nerf bards. DAOC is a rock, paper, scissors game. Deal with it.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:47 PM by keen
Just Pan, Case closed.
Bard amnesia is crucial for hib caster grps.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:07 PM by ecopli
keen wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:47 PM
Just Pan, Case closed.
Bard amnesia is crucial for hib caster grps.

Hibernia is the only realm who can cut the speed instant on other group with 2300 range, when running.
it's to big advantage; they need nerf;

@Like a minstrel nerfing charm.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:37 PM by Dathorn
ecopli wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:07 PM
keen wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:47 PM
Just Pan, Case closed.
Bard amnesia is crucial for hib caster grps.

Hibernia is the only realm who can cut the speed instant on other group with 2300 range, when running.
it's to big advantage; they need nerf;

@Like a minstrel nerfing charm.
Alb is the only realm with 1875 Mezz range, this needs nerf. Mid is the only realm with 4 insta CC on their cc class, this needs nerf. Hib is the only realm with GP so they can ignore blanket cc, this needs nerf. Mid is the only realm with PR so they can ignore RS for the first few deaths, this needs nerf. Alb is the only realm with SOS so they can have full unbreakable speed, this needs nerf.

Do you see where this is going? Part of why DAOC is great is because its not all mirrors. Every realm has advantages and disadvantages.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:38 PM by Niix
ecopli wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:07 PM
keen wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:47 PM
Just Pan, Case closed.
Bard amnesia is crucial for hib caster grps.

Hibernia is the only realm who can cut the speed instant on other group with 2300 range, when running.
it's to big advantage; they need nerf;

@Like a minstrel nerfing charm.

Bolt range mezz
Ichor

other realms have tools too, you don't want this server to turn into live do you?
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:47 PM by Druth
I do not want copied realms, and I do understand the charm is unique realms.

But I also understand the problem in any realm being able to break speed instantly from 2300 range, and how much that hurts the ability to have fun as a smallman/group when Hibs zerg.

You can't pan your way out of this, the frontier is not a flat landscape.


And stop saying it's Live like, what matters is if it's unbalanced, because it's a server with custom changes.
But what I've mostly seen are strawman arguments, that doesn't touch upon why it's needed, only that it's needed.

The argument that might hold, is that without it Mid melee assist would be on top of hib caster groups to fast, but for one I've not seen pure caster groups, mostly 1-2 casters and BM's, and secondly isn't this an issue about the risk/reward from running a glass-cannon setup?
Wed 5 Sep 2018 10:00 PM by Joc
Dathorn wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:37 PM
ecopli wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:07 PM
keen wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:47 PM
Just Pan, Case closed.
Bard amnesia is crucial for hib caster grps.

Hibernia is the only realm who can cut the speed instant on other group with 2300 range, when running.
it's to big advantage; they need nerf;

@Like a minstrel nerfing charm.
Alb is the only realm with 1875 Mezz range, this needs nerf. Mid is the only realm with 4 insta CC on their cc class, this needs nerf. Hib is the only realm with GP so they can ignore blanket cc, this needs nerf. Mid is the only realm with PR so they can ignore RS for the first few deaths, this needs nerf. Alb is the only realm with SOS so they can have full unbreakable speed, this needs nerf.

Do you see where this is going? Part of why DAOC is great is because its not all mirrors. Every realm has advantages and disadvantages.

This
Wed 5 Sep 2018 10:14 PM by keen
Removing a core mechanic of hib game play so that small men dont get caught by the zerg is in no relation
if you like small men, dont go where zergs might be, no need to change the game for that.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 10:47 PM by Dis
range is ok, but they could smaller the radius...
Thu 6 Sep 2018 4:29 AM by Isavyr
ecopli wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:07 PM
Hibernia is the only realm who can cut the speed instant on other group with 2300 range, when running.
it's to big advantage; they need nerf;


No, no it doesn't. This works as normal. You'll lose speed on next tick. This is a bizarre thread, born of ignorance.
Thu 6 Sep 2018 7:34 AM by Druth
Isavyr wrote:
Thu 6 Sep 2018 4:29 AM
ecopli wrote:
Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:07 PM
Hibernia is the only realm who can cut the speed instant on other group with 2300 range, when running.
it's to big advantage; they need nerf;


No, no it doesn't. This works as normal. You'll lose speed on next tick. This is a bizarre thread, born of ignorance.

Maybe you read what he means wrong?
The amnesia is instant, so the bard can cut speed instant on the other group when running. He says nothing about them losing the speed instant, only that the process is instant.
And yes, it's a big advantage. I only disagree on it "needing" a nerf. I'd just like a solution to keep bards strong (like healer, sorc), but also remove the ability to catch any group at 2300 range.
I think the caster group argument is invalid, because having a caster group should impose a heavy risk.
And so I'd rather have bard have casted single target amnesia, maybe combined with the 2 instant amnesias but reduced to 1500 range.

But not gonna advance the discussion, because opponents of it either resort to ridicule of OP and supporters, or simply state "Hibs need it" believing it's an actual argument.
Thu 6 Sep 2018 10:17 AM by kpax
well sorc and healer has amnesia too in same range. So it think all mezz classes has their pros and cons... pls dont start nerfing classes which will kill the balance of each realms. Maybe Bard has advance in Amnesia in comparison to other realm chars, but sorc has a pet who can release and demezz and which can qk amnesia or mezz. The main healer on mid has way more utility in comparison to other main mezz classes. So i think it is good balanced.

The way good grps fight vs Amnesia is good splitting on inc, so not all get speed break, and the bard who also loose speed is getting caught and then u have a disadvance for the bard ...Instead crying try find out stategys . Honestly daoc gives for all advance an answer..U just need to find out...Otherwise how many and many years these good Alb/Mid 8v8 succeed ?

peace

kpax
Thu 6 Sep 2018 10:33 AM by Druth
kpax wrote:
Thu 6 Sep 2018 10:17 AM
well sorc and healer has amnesia too in same range. So it think all mezz classes has their pros and cons... pls dont start nerfing classes which will kill the balance of each realms. Maybe Bard has advance in Amnesia in comparison to other realm chars, but sorc has a pet who can release and demezz and which can qk amnesia or mezz. The main healer on mid has way more utility in comparison to other main mezz classes. So i think it is good balanced.

The way good grps fight vs Amnesia is good splitting on inc, so not all get speed break, and the bard who also loose speed is getting caught and then u have a disadvance for the bard ...Instead crying try find out stategys . Honestly daoc gives for all advance an answer..U just need to find out...Otherwise how many and many years these good Alb/Mid 8v8 succeed ?

peace

kpax

Thank you for the first actual normal discussion/arguments, and I agree, but still think the zerg catching groups is annoying

Guess we might also have to see how population divide on Live launch, and see if some realms needs tweeking.
Which is a thing Uthgard failed hard on doing, which is one major reason most Albs left it when this launched.
Thu 6 Sep 2018 12:25 PM by Onnit
Zergs will catch smalls most of the time anyways if they bother to keep chasing - lag, aggro, zone walls etc
Thu 6 Sep 2018 12:39 PM by ecopli
just disable the break speed for amnesia and all is good; Server don't look's like old official server; it's a good news, changement is possible.
Thu 6 Sep 2018 2:08 PM by Isavyr
I've never seen such a complaint before, which is strange, as it's always been this way so there's been a lot of time to complain.

Anyway, I see the point, and it is unfair in the sense nobody else can do it. However, it's only unfair in the same sense that it's also unfair that only Hibernia gets a spammy turret class, or only Albion has a spammy bolt-range pet class, or only Midgard has a caster with two instant interrupts @ 1500 range. This is just how the game is, and if you want to fix this, you'd have to fix a range of other things, too.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to that, but I don't think many players actually want that. A lot of players appear to like broken things, and have come to love DAoC for whats broken, not for what works.
Thu 6 Sep 2018 3:04 PM by Patron
Plz not change the bards amnesia.
its necessary for a weak class like bard otherwise it would have a lack in utility.
Plz compare the other speedclasses to bard.
Thu 6 Sep 2018 4:03 PM by Onnit
Sure, reduce the amnesia range as long as you give bards bolt range mezz or instant aoe stun.
Thu 6 Sep 2018 5:55 PM by ecopli
Onnit wrote:
Thu 6 Sep 2018 4:03 PM
Sure, reduce the amnesia range as long as you give bards bolt range mezz or instant aoe stun.

yes and aoe Drain with MOC
Sat 8 Sep 2018 7:23 PM by Falken
Bard is easily the best utility (mez, bases, speed, 3 seperate instant interrupt skills) class of the 3 realms, the ability to never need to stop and easily lock down 2 or 3 targets, with even the occasional mez makes them very strong. This was clear in the event when all realms could play together, and yet you would sit in group forming stages waiting for a bard. I don't really have an answer for balancing, but they have a lot of high utility abilities that make them so strong that people will add 2 of them to a group rather than another dps which says a lot.
Sat 8 Sep 2018 11:49 PM by relvinian
Ran into a trio:

Bard + 2 chanters+2 snare pets.

Bolt range interrupt. Mez. Stun debuff, nuke nuke nuke.

It killed me and some poor hapless skald in about 10 seconds.

Good luck with that combination on a trio.
Sun 9 Sep 2018 6:59 AM by Druth
To the discussion, I realised that insta amnesia from bards were kinda nerfed with the introduction of Speedwarps.

Before hibs could bring an entire group out of speed, while still having 7 in their group keep speed. Speedwarps changed this imbalance, so after this there were no longer a major reason to nerf it.
Sun 9 Sep 2018 11:06 AM by cage
We should nerf all. Maybe 3 equal realms without any difference? bof is OP, nerf it! Perfect rezz? Nerf it! Sos? Nerf it! A Speed class with instant stun? lol nerf it ! Gp - well nerf it!. Nerf it all! Btw a healer with ae mezz, ae insta mezz, ae insta stun, ae stun, spread heal, base buffs. single stun, single mezz. WTF! Nerf it!
Sun 9 Sep 2018 5:20 PM by keen
Druth wrote:
Sun 9 Sep 2018 6:59 AM
Before hibs could bring an entire group out of speed, while still having 7 in their group keep speed.
Spread at inc like everyone else and it will hit 1-2 players.
Sun 9 Sep 2018 6:05 PM by Ceen
keen wrote:
Sun 9 Sep 2018 5:20 PM
Druth wrote:
Sun 9 Sep 2018 6:59 AM
Before hibs could bring an entire group out of speed, while still having 7 in their group keep speed.
Spread at inc like everyone else and it will hit 1-2 players.
We want to balance for a casual server hence you need to balance for no camera pan, afk, no template players else they stand no chance! -> server dead without amnesia nerf.
Sun 9 Sep 2018 8:27 PM by Druth
cage wrote:
Sun 9 Sep 2018 11:06 AM
We should nerf all. Maybe 3 equal realms without any difference? bof is OP, nerf it! Perfect rezz? Nerf it! Sos? Nerf it! A Speed class with instant stun? lol nerf it ! Gp - well nerf it!. Nerf it all! Btw a healer with ae mezz, ae insta mezz, ae insta stun, ae stun, spread heal, base buffs. single stun, single mezz. WTF! Nerf it!

1.65 is less than half a year from Left Axe nerf, which was a unique thing for Midgard, to have massive damage from SB/Zerker.
I personally, even while playing Mid back then, thought it was a good idea. But do you mean to tell me that any balance fixes, that touched upon unique Realm abilities, was a bad thing in DaoC?

Shaman endurance was a timed buff, changed to a conc based buff with range to bring it in line with the other realms buffs.
Midgard got Dex/qui buffs, that they did not have, and bards got Cure Disease, when only Druid had it before.
Some casters even had nukes that had less than 1500 range, which was sadly fixed to 1500, we sure miss how unique it must have been...


I'm not saying I want it nerfed, or how if it should.
But to outright dismiss any discussion seems bad when many of us came from a server with no openness to any deviations from 1.65, and we now have a chance to actually fix some of the balance issues that there were on this patch level.
Sun 9 Sep 2018 9:08 PM by Aincrad
Ceen wrote:
Sun 9 Sep 2018 6:05 PM
We want to balance for a casual server hence you need to balance for no camera pan, afk, no template players else they stand no chance! -> server dead without amnesia nerf.

Haha riiiiight
Sun 9 Sep 2018 11:01 PM by Falken
Druth wrote:
Sun 9 Sep 2018 8:27 PM
cage wrote:
Sun 9 Sep 2018 11:06 AM
We should nerf all. Maybe 3 equal realms without any difference? bof is OP, nerf it! Perfect rezz? Nerf it! Sos? Nerf it! A Speed class with instant stun? lol nerf it ! Gp - well nerf it!. Nerf it all! Btw a healer with ae mezz, ae insta mezz, ae insta stun, ae stun, spread heal, base buffs. single stun, single mezz. WTF! Nerf it!

1.65 is less than half a year from Left Axe nerf, which was a unique thing for Midgard, to have massive damage from SB/Zerker.
I personally, even while playing Mid back then, thought it was a good idea. But do you mean to tell me that any balance fixes, that touched upon unique Realm abilities, was a bad thing in DaoC?

Shaman endurance was a timed buff, changed to a conc based buff with range to bring it in line with the other realms buffs.
Midgard got Dex/qui buffs, that they did not have, and bards got Cure Disease, when only Druid had it before.
Some casters even had nukes that had less than 1500 range, which was sadly fixed to 1500, we sure miss how unique it must have been...


I'm not saying I want it nerfed, or how if it should.
But to outright dismiss any discussion seems bad when many of us came from a server with no openness to any deviations from 1.65, and we now have a chance to actually fix some of the balance issues that there were on this patch level.
Most people crying in outrage at the thought of nerfing bard are hibs for life, they like their 5 natty mindless faceroll tank setup and if you go and mess with their double bard setup then you messing with their livelihood, hence the lack of actual constructive responses. I would be more than happy with balancing the OP aspects of each realm to something more reasonable.

We are at a point in time where we have the advantage of hindsight and can make this game great and actually fulfill the vision for this game. As you mentioned there were some significant changes that gave/nerfed things to the realms that were lacking them shortly before the chosen patch level and even shortly after, the question lies in where to draw the line.
Mon 10 Sep 2018 4:03 PM by Onnit
Falken wrote:
Sat 8 Sep 2018 7:23 PM
Bard is easily the best utility (mez, bases, speed, 3 seperate instant interrupt skills) class of the 3 realms, the ability to never need to stop and easily lock down 2 or 3 targets, with even the occasional mez makes them very strong. This was clear in the event when all realms could play together, and yet you would sit in group forming stages waiting for a bard. I don't really have an answer for balancing, but they have a lot of high utility abilities that make them so strong that people will add 2 of them to a group rather than another dps which says a lot.

It’s not though imo when you got pac healers
Fri 28 Sep 2018 7:20 AM by rubaduck
Why are people trying to streamline strengths and weaknesses on each realm to become equal?

Albs have bolt range aoe mezz, hibs and mids don't

Hibs have instant amnesia at 2300 range, 1500 range instant aoe mezz.

Mids have 1500 range aoe mezz and aoe stun + Ichor at 1500 range.


If you streamline this, so 1750 aoe range amnesia, albs still has 1750 aoe range mezz. And if alb groups do what ever any other sane group do: spread on inc, they will win 9/10 incs on the fact that they still have 1750 range aoe mezz while hibs have 1500 range instant mezz. They have better time to pick the right targets, they have longer cast range that will hit the actual crowd control on to the targets. Taken in to account that bards lead the group you more or less guarantee that the sorc will target the bard every time while the bard needs to target something and amnesia them to give the hib group a chance to outmezz the sorc.

I might look like I'm biased, but I played albion for 9 years on live and the amnesia range was never an issue then, even though we had warps, so how can people not play around it now? Do not streamline the classes, please, it is one of the unique aspects of the game I love that no other MMO did after Daoc.
Fri 28 Sep 2018 9:58 AM by Druth
rubaduck wrote:
Fri 28 Sep 2018 7:20 AM
Why are people trying to streamline strengths and weaknesses on each realm to become equal?

Albs have bolt range aoe mezz, hibs and mids don't

Hibs have instant amnesia at 2300 range, 1500 range instant aoe mezz.

Mids have 1500 range aoe mezz and aoe stun + Ichor at 1500 range.

First of all, people don't want this change for 8v8, but for the 24hib v 8alb/mid, where it only takes one bard to make any escape impossible.
Second, albs have 1850 range mez because they don't have insta aoe mez.
Thirdly a healer that uses aoe stun will be slapped around afterwards by his group when the tanks realize they can't slam anything.

rubaduck wrote:
Fri 28 Sep 2018 7:20 AM
If you streamline this, so 1750 aoe range amnesia, albs still has 1750 aoe range mezz. And if alb groups do what ever any other sane group do: spread on inc, they will win 9/10 incs on the fact that they still have 1750 range aoe mezz while hibs have 1500 range instant mezz. They have better time to pick the right targets, they have longer cast range that will hit the actual crowd control on to the targets. Taken in to account that bards lead the group you more or less guarantee that the sorc will target the bard every time while the bard needs to target something and amnesia them to give the hib group a chance to outmezz the sorc.

My research says it will mean 9/10th of hib inc wont result in you being zerged.
Bards lead the group because it means the 2300 range amnesia is much more potent, stop having bard lead if it's an issue of being targeted.

rubaduck wrote:
Fri 28 Sep 2018 7:20 AM
I might look like I'm biased, but I played albion for 9 years on live and the amnesia range was never an issue then, even though we had warps, so how can people not play around it now? Do not streamline the classes, please, it is one of the unique aspects of the game I love that no other MMO did after Daoc.

Everyone is biased, not your fault, I'm biased.
Speedwarp nulified the effect of hibs catching people 90% of the time, but kept the amnesia strong in the actual fight sw was a major gamechanger in regards to not being zerged.


I've looked at the arguments for having amnesia, and people mix up things.
The problem people have with amnesia is not the range, but that it breaks next speed pulse.

Could the solution be to have amnesia break speed at 1500 range, but still be 2300 range?
Fri 28 Sep 2018 10:44 AM by rubaduck
Druth wrote:
Fri 28 Sep 2018 9:58 AM
I've looked at the arguments for having amnesia, and people mix up things.
The problem people have with amnesia is not the range, but that it breaks next speed pulse.

Could the solution be to have amnesia break speed at 1500 range, but still be 2300 range?

In terms of mechanics, they are what they are and how the mechanics are used regardless of immunity timers are in this discussion irrelevant as I was just pointing out the differences. 1850 range mezz is the strongest, as the sorc can cast it before anyone is in range for insta. And if the sorc is not interrupted, they win the first few seconds regardless if amnesia speedbreaks or not.

I see the argument for speed break, and yes I agree that it is indeed a problem in terms of balance. To me the most important thing with amnesia is the interruption part, so if we can agree that the range itself is not a problem I am more then happy to say I agree that something should be done with the speed break.

If one could retain the interruption at 2300 and only speedbreak from 1500 range it would not make the spell totally pointless.
Fri 28 Sep 2018 5:37 PM by defiasbandit
What is the point of letting bards and minstrels be overpowered? The bard 2300 instas are totally broken.

You ever notice how bards and minstrels are the best duos, trios 8man etc.. Imbalance.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 5:49 AM by rubaduck
defiasbandit wrote:
Fri 28 Sep 2018 5:37 PM
What is the point of letting bards and minstrels be overpowered? The bard 2300 instas are totally broken.

You ever notice how bards and minstrels are the best duos, trios 8man etc.. Imbalance.

What? Who? Where? Minstrel AND Bards are overpowered?

2300 range amnesia does one important thing: interrupt. It is annoying as hell i know but that is all it do (plus speed break which I'll agree should be reworked). They have a 5 second cooldown single target amnesia, and a 10 second cooldown aoe amnesia, which means they can stop 2 casts while the 3rd goes through. You have two choices as a bard, or three but the last option is so stupid and will never work: Healer with some support, support with utility or battle bard. Healer bards are not that bad and can be a good addition to the group if you have faith in your dps or are lacking heals and can't find a druid or a warden. Battle bard is a gimmick and will get slaughtered unless you are a really competent player. A competent player and a overpowered class is two different things however.

Sorcs also have 2x 2300 range amnesia, given not instant but they also have 1875 range mezz as opposed to 1500 bards. If an alb group runs two sorcs which they often do, one will be casting amnesia while the other mezz, creating a whole other dynamic.

Mids who runs with 1 aug and 1 pac healer will have the same dynamic, thus giving them ample opportunities to cast amnesia on inc as well.

Hibernia groups usually don't run two bards as it doesn't add anything to the group that they already have, that is the difference. And if you can't beat a hib caster group running 2 bards, knowing they are lacking one dps, you are either facing a very competent group who communicate very well, or your group is not competent and don't communicate well. It has nothing to do with 2300 range instant amnesia.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 6:35 AM by defiasbandit
rubaduck wrote:
Sat 29 Sep 2018 5:49 AM
defiasbandit wrote:
Fri 28 Sep 2018 5:37 PM
What is the point of letting bards and minstrels be overpowered? The bard 2300 instas are totally broken.

You ever notice how bards and minstrels are the best duos, trios 8man etc.. Imbalance.

What? Who? Where? Minstrel AND Bards are overpowered?

2300 range amnesia does one important thing: interrupt. It is annoying as hell i know but that is all it do (plus speed break which I'll agree should be reworked). They have a 5 second cooldown single target amnesia, and a 10 second cooldown aoe amnesia, which means they can stop 2 casts while the 3rd goes through. You have two choices as a bard, or three but the last option is so stupid and will never work: Healer with some support, support with utility or battle bard. Healer bards are not that bad and can be a good addition to the group if you have faith in your dps or are lacking heals and can't find a druid or a warden. Battle bard is a gimmick and will get slaughtered unless you are a really competent player. A competent player and a overpowered class is two different things however.

Sorcs also have 2x 2300 range amnesia, given not instant but they also have 1875 range mezz as opposed to 1500 bards. If an alb group runs two sorcs which they often do, one will be casting amnesia while the other mezz, creating a whole other dynamic.

Mids who runs with 1 aug and 1 pac healer will have the same dynamic, thus giving them ample opportunities to cast amnesia on inc as well.

Hibernia groups usually don't run two bards as it doesn't add anything to the group that they already have, that is the difference. And if you can't beat a hib caster group running 2 bards, knowing they are lacking one dps, you are either facing a very competent group who communicate very well, or your group is not competent and don't communicate well. It has nothing to do with 2300 range instant amnesia.

How can you so blatently defend a 2300 insta spell. That stuff was bad for DAOC. Bard is insta interrupting from 2300 range while running at 204% speed. oh ok.

So many of the instaspells should have cast times. Not all, but stuff like 2300 range bard amnesia. It would fix a lot. You also think entirely in terms of 8mans which most players do not even partake it. Bards are godly in small man too just like minstrels.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 11:05 AM by rubaduck
defiasbandit wrote:
Sat 29 Sep 2018 6:35 AM
How can you so blatently defend a 2300 insta spell. That stuff was bad for DAOC. Bard is insta interrupting from 2300 range while running at 204% speed. oh ok.

So many of the instaspells should have cast times. Not all, but stuff like 2300 range bard amnesia. It would fix a lot. You also think entirely in terms of 8mans which most players do not even partake it. Bards are godly in small man too just like minstrels.

I am assuming you don't play bard on Phoenix, but that you are a veteran of the game and have knowledge about the class as well the class structure in the game and the roles of each classes regardless if they are being played solo, smallman or 8man. This is not a new game, and it would be naive to believe old veterans don't know this.

The bard has a stop, cast, move mechanic just like any other caster. Most of the bards spells are castable, like demez, casted mezz and heals. In between they also focus on interruption through their amnesia and clearing pets with their confusion. This is regardless if he is playing smallman group or 8v8. The bard has a weakness that it has to stop and cast most of their spells during the fight but still has to maintain a focus on CC alone (appart from slam, snares and castable stuns). To put this in perspective, the same job can be done with two classes in albion and midgard. 1 class focus on CC like mezz and stun, the other focus on interrupt and dps/heal. If you look at the workload one single bard has in a group you will see why the amnesia is instant. If that however would be changed to a casted amnesia, to say a Mentalist for it to make sense for example, there would be no need for instant amnesia on the Bard because a big workload of their role has been lifted.

And I am not blatently defending an instant amnesia spell, I am blatently defending the "inbalance" in class structure between the realms to defend why the bard has the utility it has compared to them.

And no, a bard and a Minstrel is not the same, the minstrel is a melee, and don't do stop, cast, move on anything but their casted aoe mezz. You can look at them and believe it is the same because both weilds an instrument and a weapon, but mechanicwise they are very different in both strenth and style.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 1:23 PM by Magesty
In my experience as an Alb small man player instant amnesia is insanely oppressive at this patch level. Sure, it might be fine in 8v8 situations where both sides have a bevy of options to deal with it, but in a 2vX situation there is absolutely no counter play. If the Bard isn’t a total mouth breather your cc caster will get interrupted and will be unable to quick cast. If the bard has instas up it is guaranteed GG unless they really blow it. Not only is amnesia exceptionally effective in small man fights but it gives hib 8mans a way to catch and kill smaller numbers for free, which they do with impunity.

I have no real suggestions for how to balance it— I just wanted to complain. I see why something like it might be needed in 8 man play based off of the arguments given here, but my god is it a frustrating and anti fun mechanic to play against. Instant, aoe, low CD, uncounterable interrupt. Cool. Did I mention it has the longest range in the game? Let’s shove that on a class that already has speed, mez, heals and buffs. Good idea.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 1:26 PM by Ceen
Insta amnesia is waaay to OP.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 2:26 PM by isocleas2
I've never seen so much crying about bard amnesia. It was even more OP on uthgard and it didn't receive this much attention. If you want to avoid losing speed on inc destick and spread out. If you want to nerf all realm unique features then be prepared when that double edged sword comes for your realm/class.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 2:38 PM by rubaduck
I agree, a nerfhammer should be the last man resort, not the first choice.

If I were to give my 2 cents, as I have mentioned before in this thread, move the amnesia to another caster class on hib and make it castable. Mentalist is in my opinion the best choice, as it would make sense in terms of class desciption and it would give more incentive to involve mentalists in setting up the fight. Then every realm has a 2 sec cast amnesia at 2300 range, and every realm has the same premise. Putting a castable on the bard is redundant if you ask me.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 2:51 PM by isocleas2
rubaduck wrote:
Sat 29 Sep 2018 2:38 PM
I agree, a nerfhammer should be the last man resort, not the first choice.

If I were to give my 2 cents, as I have mentioned before in this thread, move the amnesia to another caster class on hib and make it castable. Mentalist is in my opinion the best choice, as it would make sense in terms of class desciption and it would give more incentive to involve mentalists in setting up the fight. Then every realm has a 2 sec cast amnesia at 2300 range, and every realm has the same premise. Putting a castable on the bard is redundant if you ask me.

That's still a nerf imo. You remove Insta amnesia from a main cc class and give a weaker version to a class (mentalist) that often isn't chosen. Nice for hib caster groups but shit for tank groups. Also without Insta cc how does a bard ever beat a sorc to mezz without amnesia?

Imo let's remove pets from mincers and let paladins charm 1 pet (yellow con max). That's about the equivalent of moving bard amnesia to a mentalist.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 2:55 PM by JORAAL
Yeah let’s nerf bard it’s too op lmao I can’t even believe what I just read all over this topic you guys should play world of Warcraft if you want mirror class
Sat 29 Sep 2018 3:09 PM by rubaduck
isocleas2 wrote:
Sat 29 Sep 2018 2:51 PM
rubaduck wrote:
Sat 29 Sep 2018 2:38 PM
I agree, a nerfhammer should be the last man resort, not the first choice.

If I were to give my 2 cents, as I have mentioned before in this thread, move the amnesia to another caster class on hib and make it castable. Mentalist is in my opinion the best choice, as it would make sense in terms of class desciption and it would give more incentive to involve mentalists in setting up the fight. Then every realm has a 2 sec cast amnesia at 2300 range, and every realm has the same premise. Putting a castable on the bard is redundant if you ask me.

That's still a nerf imo. You remove Insta amnesia from a main cc class and give a weaker version to a class (mentalist) that often isn't chosen. Nice for hib caster groups but shit for tank groups. Also without Insta cc how does a bard ever beat a sorc to mezz without amnesia?

Imo let's remove pets from mincers and let paladins charm 1 pet (yellow con max). That's about the equivalent of moving bard amnesia to a mentalist.

It would be a nerf to bard yes, but not to amnesia. Nerfing amnesia is an option too but it make a much bigger impact on the game which might be even worse.

See I agree that Bards should have instant amnesia, that class needs to perform for two which is why so many people dislike playing them. But if we are to meet someone halfway we need to see the possibilities available for us. Another alternative is to give bards casted amnesia, but the problem with that is that it forces hibs to run two bards, something that cripples caster groups but is not noticeable on hib tank groups (they can just replace one naturalist with a bard and don't be at a disadvantage), so to me it's a catch 22. The last option would be to have casted on both the bard and the menty, as that would not cripple tank groups, and not caster groups. It will however give two different classes amnesia in hibernia, so another unfair balance in class roles.

If amnesia itself is nerfed, every group who relies on it, which is all 8v8 groups, will be affected and that may be a bigger concern down the road.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 3:13 PM by rubaduck
JORAAL wrote:
Sat 29 Sep 2018 2:55 PM
Yeah let’s nerf bard it’s too op lmao I can’t even believe what I just read all over this topic you guys should play world of Warcraft if you want mirror class

You have extensive knowledge about the class, so let me ask you to see if I am understanding my own suggestions correct.

What would change with the class if instead of instant amnesia, it was a 2 second cast amnesia like on mid and alb?

What would happen to group setups, both caster and melee in hibernia for 8 man if amnesia was on 2 second cast instead of instant?

I am all for instant amnesia 2300 range by the way.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 4:40 PM by Ceen
rubaduck wrote:
Sat 29 Sep 2018 2:38 PM
I agree, a nerfhammer should be the last man resort, not the first choice.

If I were to give my 2 cents, as I have mentioned before in this thread, move the amnesia to another caster class on hib and make it castable. Mentalist is in my opinion the best choice, as it would make sense in terms of class desciption and it would give more incentive to involve mentalists in setting up the fight. Then every realm has a 2 sec cast amnesia at 2300 range, and every realm has the same premise. Putting a castable on the bard is redundant if you ask me.

Seems to be the best solution imo.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 5:01 PM by isocleas2
Best solution is to leave things as they are, instead of searching for a solution for a problem that doesn't really exist.
Sat 29 Sep 2018 5:58 PM by JORAAL
alright when I’m back home I’ll give you answers about all of that and why I think nerfing or changing amnesia on bard is really bad
Sat 29 Sep 2018 9:44 PM by JORAAL
So in my opinion there are a lot of things to say , i'll try to be as logical as possible . First of all, for the record i'll just say that i started playing bard since the beginning of phoenix , i never played bard before . Before this in term of support experience i had my first one on uthgard as a pacHealer and in my opinion pacHealer has a bigger skillcap than bard got in classic at least.

You guys are all complaining about bard that can amnesia your smallman, solo or whatever , but in my opinion if you think in that way it's the wrong way daoc is all about the class in your group and you are potentially playing 8v8 so it's a waste to cry because a bard catches you with amnesia because you are a smallman , you just have to roam a smarter way you know...

Then lets talk about the 3 realms i'll start with :
Pachealer : So on pacHealer you have castable amnesia aoe and single amnesia , then you got insta mezz and aoe insta mezz , then again insta stun and insta aoe stun , which is a lot compared to bard. You can also root spreadheal etc....
Sorcerer : you got a high range for mezz , castable amnesia , pet , root , can damage compared to bard and even a buff that reduces the mezz on you.
Bard : insta amnesia single /aoe , insta mezz single/aoe , and ? thats it i guess nevermind you can also peel a tank on you do some decent heals if you have enough in regrowth , confusion for theu pets .

So you guys wanna change amnesia which is one of the strengh of the bard ? i really don't get it also you have to think that if you play a tank setup with only 1 bard the bard is the only one who can demezz so you kinda have to play 2 bard if you don't wanna rely on gp / purge . On top of that bard is a really squishy character you can get fucked really easy if you make a mistake

Thats my point of view maybe i'm the only one to think that way , but if you guys wanna nerf bard , i mean whats the point of playing bard ? it's gonna worst than any of the class i just listed whereas with insta amnesia you can be challenging and do good if you pay attention really well to the fight
Sun 30 Sep 2018 1:10 AM by rubaduck
JORAAL wrote:
Sat 29 Sep 2018 9:44 PM
So in my opinion there are a lot of things to say , i'll try to be as logical as possible . First of all, for the record i'll just say that i started playing bard since the beginning of phoenix , i never played bard before . Before this in term of support experience i had my first one on uthgard as a pacHealer and in my opinion pacHealer has a bigger skillcap than bard got in classic at least.

You guys are all complaining about bard that can amnesia your smallman, solo or whatever , but in my opinion if you think in that way it's the wrong way daoc is all about the class in your group and you are potentially playing 8v8 so it's a waste to cry because a bard catches you with amnesia because you are a smallman , you just have to roam a smarter way you know...

Then lets talk about the 3 realms i'll start with :
Pachealer : So on pacHealer you have castable amnesia aoe and single amnesia , then you got insta mezz and aoe insta mezz , then again insta stun and insta aoe stun , which is a lot compared to bard. You can also root spreadheal etc....
Sorcerer : you got a high range for mezz , castable amnesia , pet , root , can damage compared to bard and even a buff that reduces the mezz on you.
Bard : insta amnesia single /aoe , insta mezz single/aoe , and ? thats it i guess nevermind you can also peel a tank on you do some decent heals if you have enough in regrowth , confusion for theu pets .

So you guys wanna change amnesia which is one of the strengh of the bard ? i really don't get it also you have to think that if you play a tank setup with only 1 bard the bard is the only one who can demezz so you kinda have to play 2 bard if you don't wanna rely on gp / purge . On top of that bard is a really squishy character you can get fucked really easy if you make a mistake

Thats my point of view maybe i'm the only one to think that way , but if you guys wanna nerf bard , i mean whats the point of playing bard ? it's gonna worst than any of the class i just listed whereas with insta amnesia you can be challenging and do good if you pay attention really well to the fight

It's perfect, I am happy that I am not the only one with similar view as you. The class structure and difference compared to the counterpart for the roles from the other servers I know you are speaking the same logic as I am saying as well in my posts. Bards are not OP, they just need that edge to be able to compete. Move it or nerf amnesia and all you are left with is a mezz bot with some off heals and demez.
Sun 30 Sep 2018 4:32 AM by rubaduck
Ceen wrote:
Sat 29 Sep 2018 4:40 PM
rubaduck wrote:
Sat 29 Sep 2018 2:38 PM
I agree, a nerfhammer should be the last man resort, not the first choice.

If I were to give my 2 cents, as I have mentioned before in this thread, move the amnesia to another caster class on hib and make it castable. Mentalist is in my opinion the best choice, as it would make sense in terms of class desciption and it would give more incentive to involve mentalists in setting up the fight. Then every realm has a 2 sec cast amnesia at 2300 range, and every realm has the same premise. Putting a castable on the bard is redundant if you ask me.

Seems to be the best solution imo.

There are no best solution to this unfortunately, as the backlash of doing that is melee groups losing their amnesia. For a caster group this changes nothing really, it moves some of the pressure and workload over to another team member. A second choice is to put a redundant castable amnesia on bard and mentalist, but that adds imbalance to the class structure between realms something I hope most people want to avoid.
Sun 30 Sep 2018 10:19 AM by Patron
Can we stop discussing this bs?
Serious, bard is really hard to play well and removing this core mechanic of a bard would hurt hibernia really hard and this is not appropiate or needed. All you folks argue is, its not as in other realms. And this is just crazy.
Sorc high mezz range, healers instant stuns, or other sorc only spells are part of the realmbalance and are daoccore.
I hope the staff dont make the mistake to break daoc classbalance.

I could argue better in german, but i think for your level of arguing its more then enough.

Play on
Sun 30 Sep 2018 10:20 AM by Patron
isocleas2 wrote:
Sat 29 Sep 2018 5:01 PM
Best solution is to leave things as they are, instead of searching for a solution for a problem that doesn't really exist.

This
Sun 30 Sep 2018 10:53 AM by JORAAL
Anyway dark age of Camelot has always been like that so you should stop trying to make stupid custom changes like that , those things you are asking for should never happened
Sun 30 Sep 2018 1:39 PM by keen
Imo swapping classes would be the best solution.
Mid gets bard with insta amnesia, hib gets healer class instead.
Seems easier to handle, no customisation needed and for sure no hib would cry about op insta amnesia.
Sun 30 Sep 2018 10:15 PM by Patron
There is no op instant amnesia, its just daoc as it was forever.
Look, noone cry for instant aoe stun or superiour warrior dmg table.
Why bards core mechanic is a topic?
And btw... Giving hib healer and midgard bard will lead to no main healer for midgars and no 204 speedclass for hibernia.
I cant follow your argues...

In germany we know a word: verschlimmbessern
Sun 30 Sep 2018 11:41 PM by Joc
keen wrote:
Sun 30 Sep 2018 1:39 PM
Imo swapping classes would be the best solution.
Mid gets bard with insta amnesia, hib gets healer class instead.
Seems easier to handle, no customisation needed and for sure no hib would cry about op insta amnesia.

No. There are many ways this is a terrible idea.

Bard is the speed class for hib. Mid would have no MAIN healer or cc class. The lore doesn't fit at all. Group makeup for pve would suffer.
Sun 30 Sep 2018 11:46 PM by Patron
ecopli wrote:
Tue 4 Sep 2018 4:05 PM
I see a lot of rework class (Minstrel!);
Can you speak now about the Hibernia BARD ?

Why Hibernia can have 2 instant amnesia RANGE 2300 for break speed; when midgard and albion can't do this.

Possible changement:
- choice 1; instant range 1000/1500 ?
- choice 2; Castable spell ?;
- choice 3; Don't break speed;
- choice 4; Usable only in combat;
- choice 5: Don't change it's cheated but stay like that;

Please, change this "for the balance of RvR"
I want to argue the starter post:

Because realms have unique classes and i love it.
Celerity for mid only, spec af and castable mezz reduction alb and amnesia instant for bard.

And because of this there is no need for braindead changes
Mon 1 Oct 2018 5:42 PM by defiasbandit
Issue with the game is that Mythic balanced the game around having a bard, minstrel, or skald in your group. You are sorta screwed otherwise.
Thu 4 Oct 2018 1:18 AM by Dve
But why do Bards get MoC on Phoenix? They didn't in 2003, and they have so many instant spells.
It's really confusing to me why the Phoenix devs decided to give this class MoC.
Thu 4 Oct 2018 3:46 AM by daocgod
bards got moc in like 1.68 its not a big deal

i dont know why anyone is arguing over balance however. we all go into this knowing that classic daoc is actually trash but that is all that people seem to want to play.
Thu 4 Oct 2018 3:53 AM by Waygone
Hey, I'm all for scout for later versions. Right now they're complete crap! If they have bards at that patch level, then bring others in line as well...
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:01 AM by defiasbandit
Do Bards seriously get MoC?

They have insta single and ae amnesia 2300 range

They have insta single and ae mez

Seems a little op lol
Thu 4 Oct 2018 6:15 AM by faliv
defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:01 AM
Do Bards seriously get MoC?

They have insta single and ae amnesia 2300 range

They have insta single and ae mez

Seems a little op lol

Luckily moc on Healers and exspecially sorc was never a reason to complain in daoc history

ot: some solos/smallgroups got catched by superior numbers and the problem ist the range? just stay out of the 2300 range the same way you would stay out of the 2000 range. problem solved.
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:27 PM by rubaduck
defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:01 AM
Do Bards seriously get MoC?

They have insta single and ae amnesia 2300 range

They have insta single and ae mez

Seems a little op lol

I agree that if you look at the skills and abilities given it looks very overpowered. Instant cast abilities, moc, heals. But if you look at bards in action however you'll see that they alone are responsible for:

1) drive the group
2) amnesia and speedbreak on inc and during fight
3) mezz and crowdcontrol (along with nature druids) on inc and during fight
4) pet control
5) peel
6) heal
7) cure de/ps
8) rez.

If you take a look at nr 1, the counter part is done by skalds on mid and minstrel on alb and can't compare.
If you look at nr 2, the counterpart is done by healers (plural) on mid and sorcs (plural) on alb. Healers can compare, but are almost always 2 per group
If you look at mezz the counterpart is done by a pac healer on mid and mind sorc on alb. 1 primary 1875 range mezz on albion, the longest in game. Both hibs and mids have instant mezz because of it.
If you look at peeling, this is done by the healer on mid, and mind sorc on alb and they have an equal job
If you look at 6, 7 and 8 the counterpart on mid is aug healer and pac healer (plural). The workload is shared.

No other realm but hibernia has a class with such a big responsability for groups. Maybe the Pac healer, but that's because they have a lose/lose condition if they mess up the immunity timers. Alb sorcs are dps when they don't interrupt and mezz and are often plural in a group. Hib has 1 bard, 2 if it is in a melee train for more demez.

Bards need this utility to be relevant for the groups they are in. You can give menty and bard castable amnesia, but trust me you're gonna get a lot more hell if that ever happens.
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:34 PM by defiasbandit
rubaduck wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:27 PM
defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:01 AM
Do Bards seriously get MoC?

They have insta single and ae amnesia 2300 range

They have insta single and ae mez

Seems a little op lol

I agree that if you look at the skills and abilities given it looks very overpowered. Instant cast abilities, moc, heals. But if you look at bards in action however you'll see that they alone are responsible for:

1) drive the group
2) amnesia and speedbreak on inc and during fight
3) mezz and crowdcontrol (along with nature druids) on inc and during fight
4) pet control
5) peel
6) heal
7) cure de/ps
8) rez.

If you take a look at nr 1, the counter part is done by skalds on mid and minstrel on alb and can't compare.
If you look at nr 2, the counterpart is done by healers (plural) on mid and sorcs (plural) on alb. Healers can compare, but are almost always 2 per group
If you look at mezz the counterpart is done by a pac healer on mid and mind sorc on alb. 1 primary 1875 range mezz on albion, the longest in game. Both hibs and mids have instant mezz because of it.
If you look at peeling, this is done by the healer on mid, and mind sorc on alb and they have an equal job
If you look at 6, 7 and 8 the counterpart on mid is aug healer and pac healer (plural). The workload is shared.

No other realm but hibernia has a class with such a big responsability for groups. Maybe the Pac healer, but that's because they have a lose/lose condition if they mess up the immunity timers. Alb sorcs are dps when they don't interrupt and mezz and are often plural in a group. Hib has 1 bard, 2 if it is in a melee train for more demez.

Bards need this utility to be relevant for the groups they are in. You can give menty and bard castable amnesia, but trust me you're gonna get a lot more hell if that ever happens.

Stop looking at it in terms of 8man.

The class is insanely powerful in small man. Duo, trio, etc.. They can even solo.

Their level of CC is ridiculous. That is how Mythic designed the game. Why they have MoC here I do not understand.

If certain classes are going to remain this overtuned it is going to frustrate a lot of players.

Bringing a bard to a fight of any size can entirely shift the fight.
Thu 4 Oct 2018 6:12 PM by poisonclover
JORAAL wrote:
Sun 30 Sep 2018 10:53 AM
Anyway dark age of Camelot has always been like that so you should stop trying to make stupid custom changes like that , those things you are asking for should never happened

but its cool for every other class to bite the bullet when they get nerfed or abilities tuned even though by your definition its always been like that?
Thu 4 Oct 2018 6:16 PM by rubaduck
defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:34 PM
The class is insanely powerful in small man. Duo, trio, etc.. They can even solo.

This is the same for smallman, why can't you see that the layers of a class role apply regardless?

defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:34 PM
Their level of CC is ridiculous. That is how Mythic designed the game. Why they have MoC here I do not understand.

CC alone can't kill. Sorcs has the same crazy amount of CC, given only castable, and they CAN kill. Healers have the same crazy amount of CC and can't kill anything Compare the class roles carfully, and you'll see that it is a poor choice of words. MoC is probably there because it's a naturalist arch-class. But to be fair, a moc bard is either CRAZY good because he sacrifice AM for MoC early on, or just plain stupid if he doesn't know how to play it. You don't see MoC and AM until late RR. Getting them both early will gimp you, trust me.


defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:34 PM
They can even solo.

Oh come on. A very few can pull it off, I'm just gonna leave my argument at that.

defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:34 PM
Bringing a bard to a fight of any size can entirely shift the fight.

Bringing any CC class, be that sorc or healer or nature druid or whatever it is to a fight of any size shifts the fight. CC is strong in any group format, it is suppose to be. Quit demonizing the bard, it has two long instant amnesias because it is alone to to that job in the group sizes, and two instant mezz (like the healer) because the sorc has 1875 range mezz. If you were to give hibs two characters to have amnesia, you would still complain, I guarantee it.
Thu 4 Oct 2018 6:34 PM by defiasbandit
rubaduck wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 6:16 PM
defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:34 PM
The class is insanely powerful in small man. Duo, trio, etc.. They can even solo.

This is the same for smallman, why can't you see that the layers of a class role apply regardless?

defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:34 PM
Their level of CC is ridiculous. That is how Mythic designed the game. Why they have MoC here I do not understand.

CC alone can't kill. Sorcs has the same crazy amount of CC, given only castable, and they CAN kill. Healers have the same crazy amount of CC and can't kill anything Compare the class roles carfully, and you'll see that it is a poor choice of words. MoC is probably there because it's a naturalist arch-class. But to be fair, a moc bard is either CRAZY good because he sacrifice AM for MoC early on, or just plain stupid if he doesn't know how to play it. You don't see MoC and AM until late RR. Getting them both early will gimp you, trust me.


defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:34 PM
They can even solo.

Oh come on. A very few can pull it off, I'm just gonna leave my argument at that.

defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:34 PM
Bringing a bard to a fight of any size can entirely shift the fight.

Bringing any CC class, be that sorc or healer or nature druid or whatever it is to a fight of any size shifts the fight. CC is strong in any group format, it is suppose to be. Quit demonizing the bard, it has two long instant amnesias because it is alone to to that job in the group sizes, and two instant mezz (like the healer) because the sorc has 1875 range mezz. If you were to give hibs two characters to have amnesia, you would still complain, I guarantee it.

They shoulda had cast timers on the mez or amensia imo. Where is the counterplay when the bard 2300 insta interrupts then insta mezzes. The counterplay window is tiny.
Sat 6 Oct 2018 2:52 PM by rubaduck
defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 6:34 PM
They shoulda had cast timers on the mez or amensia imo. Where is the counterplay when the bard 2300 insta interrupts then insta mezzes. The counterplay window is tiny.

There is, it's called spread. 6000 clip range, 2300 amnesia range. You'll see them from MILES of and got a lot of time to move in to formation.
Sat 6 Oct 2018 5:27 PM by defiasbandit
rubaduck wrote:
Sat 6 Oct 2018 2:52 PM
defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 4 Oct 2018 6:34 PM
They shoulda had cast timers on the mez or amensia imo. Where is the counterplay when the bard 2300 insta interrupts then insta mezzes. The counterplay window is tiny.

There is, it's called spread. 6000 clip range, 2300 amnesia range. You'll see them from MILES of and got a lot of time to move in to formation.

There you go again thinking in terms of 8man. Think of small man. If a bard rolls up on you and you are a caster you can't do anything.
Sat 6 Oct 2018 8:52 PM by depth
Defias, if your worried about your smallman getting destroyed by amnesia, run with a minstrel (if you play alb) and SoS out (even though you request that that too be put on a cast timer in another thread LOL). Or, if you play Midgard, learn to do what everyone else will be doing and pan your camera while moving, take note of terrain and avoid bad line of sight so you're 3/8 group doesn't get steamrolled by a very simple and core mechanic that has literally been around since the dawn of time. We all play around the same abilities, we all get caught by amnesia, instamezzes, you name it, adding a casted delay will most likely not even save you in the vast majority of instances where you'd get 'caught' anyways. Use region chat to establish WHERE the enemy is at if you're in smallman, if there's no information available, well, you went into an RvR zone with an underwhelming number of people, with no information in regards to enemy location, and you died. Why SHOULD you be able to do anything if "...you are a caster you can't do anything". You had it exactly correct there, you shouldn't.
Mon 8 Oct 2018 4:15 AM by rubaduck
defiasbandit wrote:
Sat 6 Oct 2018 5:27 PM
There you go again thinking in terms of 8man. Think of small man. If a bard rolls up on you and you are a caster you can't do anything.

Are we playing two separate games? Is not smallman a group too? The only things that change from a small man to 8 man is 1) more players. 2) more communication. The rest is the same, like exactly the same, you pan around, you spread on inc and you follow the MA. If you're not even doing this then why the /(#" complain on a mechanic that is one of the EASIEST to explain and understand.

You are upset that someone has a 5 sec cooldown amnesia on insta cast. That means within 10 seconds they can cast it 4 times while every other realm has a 2 sec cast amnesia, same 2300 range, that can be spammed. You fail to recognize the advantage/disadvantage about this and use your own personal mistakes as an argument to get it changed. It is not OP, never was OP and never will be OP. Why aren't you joining the real discussion about "OPness" bards, their access to MoC instead?
Mon 8 Oct 2018 4:27 AM by defiasbandit
rubaduck wrote:
Mon 8 Oct 2018 4:15 AM
defiasbandit wrote:
Sat 6 Oct 2018 5:27 PM
There you go again thinking in terms of 8man. Think of small man. If a bard rolls up on you and you are a caster you can't do anything.

Are we playing two separate games? Is not smallman a group too? The only things that change from a small man to 8 man is 1) more players. 2) more communication. The rest is the same, like exactly the same, you pan around, you spread on inc and you follow the MA. If you're not even doing this then why the /(#" complain on a mechanic that is one of the EASIEST to explain and understand.

You are upset that someone has a 5 sec cooldown amnesia on insta cast. That means within 10 seconds they can cast it 4 times while every other realm has a 2 sec cast amnesia, same 2300 range, that can be spammed. You fail to recognize the advantage/disadvantage about this and use your own personal mistakes as an argument to get it changed. It is not OP, never was OP and never will be OP. Why aren't you joining the real discussion about "OPness" bards, their access to MoC instead?

Would be a shame if bards got retooled a bit. You might not be able to run two in your full buffed 8man anymore.
Mon 8 Oct 2018 4:59 AM by rubaduck
defiasbandit wrote:
Mon 8 Oct 2018 4:27 AM
Would be a shame if bards got retooled a bit. You might not be able to run two in your full buffed 8man anymore.

What on earth are you on about now? Are you referring to FD running 2 bards this weekend because we didn't have any other classes online to fill the last damage slot and don't pug a random when we can fill it as a full guild group? Yeah we won because we had 2 bards, not because we play really well together and communicate. You are so out of your element and you are just fishing for arguments because you don't want to face the reality that your arguments so far don't have any weight to them. What about owning your own arguments? First off, I have spoken in terms of 8 man and small man, yet you still claim I don't see it from that point of view when it is so very obvious and the second I point it out you turn the argument around to either personal attacks or just straight up stupidity and snark.
Mon 8 Oct 2018 5:09 AM by Druth
I hope they test some class adjustments when i50 hits.

I think not having insta amnesia (and changed to casted) might hurt bard in groups, but we dont know.

I know having insta amnesia makes it very hard to dodge fights with hibs, unless you see them in very open space, and that hurts smallman and group dodging zergs.
Mon 8 Oct 2018 7:01 AM by rubaduck
Druth wrote:
Mon 8 Oct 2018 5:09 AM
I hope they test some class adjustments when i50 hits.

I think not having insta amnesia (and changed to casted) might hurt bard in groups, but we dont know.

I know having insta amnesia makes it very hard to dodge fights with hibs, unless you see them in very open space, and that hurts smallman and group dodging zergs.

It's a catch 22 situation, because hibernia, just as any other realms need amnesia for inc just like any other realm. This was more or less fixed in TOA with speedwarps, which reduced the need for amnesia to speed break but it was still needed for interrupt. That is what it is used for mainly today too, and this is where amnesia is considered "OP" on hib. Appart from that it is the same old spell. I will say with 100% likelyhood that non insta amnesia will hurt smallman and 8 man in hibernia to the point where the spell will be useless for income and redundant during fights. Bards can't spam amnesia like mids and albs can.

This can be fixed in a few ways:

1) Remove speedbreak function on Amnesia. This will make sure that every realm has the same premise but then lack a speedbreak mechanic unless you're on a collision. It is both a bad and a good thing because one can easily escape. I don't know anything about the coding, but it has to be done so that it doesn't cause speedbreak but still breaks mezz. This is a nerf to every realm, and the most fair nerf. It is however a nerf to a mechanic, and will most likely be the worst as it is swinging the hammer which in my opinion should be the last option and not the first.

2) Give Bards a castable amnesia instead of instant, 2 sec cast, no cooldown. This should speak for it self, it is a nerf to instant spell but will be an overload for the Bard forcing hib groups not running nat 5 to bring a second bard for the purpose of interrupting. It will also make smallman encounter the same difficulties, with even more pressure on the bard. If a group runs a single bard, who is the main mezzer , needs to stop, cast, move on inc with a 1500 range mezz hib will be on a deficit and at a disadvantage on every turn. Any mid group and alb group will have a second player focusing on amnesia while the other focus on CC. This will be the absolute worst option for hibernia, but will sure as hell be the best for mids and albs.

3) Give Bards and Mentalist (or any other caster, menta just makes more sense to me) a 2 sec castable, no cooldown amnesia. This will open up group setups which is fair to hibernia. They can still run the same caster group setups, they can still run the same nat5 caster setup. The problem with this solution is the class imbalance, which is down to the core one of the cogwheels that makes Daoc unique. Not only will hibernia have two amnesia casters, but they can also mix up the group comps to fit exactly as they like. Nat5 doesn't need to bring a useless menta, and the caster groups don't need to pick up a second bard. This is worst case scenario for mids and albs, and best case scenario for hibs if instant amnesia were to change.

There are of course several other options, but these are the ones that I realistically see as possible changes.
Mon 8 Oct 2018 8:32 AM by Druth
rubaduck wrote:
Mon 8 Oct 2018 7:01 AM
2) Give Bards a castable amnesia instead of instant, 2 sec cast, no cooldown. This should speak for it self, it is a nerf to instant spell but will be an overload for the Bard forcing hib groups not running nat 5 to bring a second bard for the purpose of interrupting. It will also make smallman encounter the same difficulties, with even more pressure on the bard. If a group runs a single bard, who is the main mezzer , needs to stop, cast, move on inc with a 1500 range mezz hib will be on a deficit and at a disadvantage on every turn. Any mid group and alb group will have a second player focusing on amnesia while the other focus on CC. This will be the absolute worst option for hibernia, but will sure as hell be the best for mids and albs.


First of all, have to applaud you for actully discussing, and not just "get better" "stfu, don't change anything" etc
Second, Mythic in the past did changes that greatly altered RvR. I for one were oblivious to Stoicism being put in game, untill I saw how tanks were suddenly impossible to stop with ordinary CC. Some likely knew it would alter the scene of RvR greatly, but 25% CC reduction did seem minor at the time to me.
So... seeing how some fight for insta amnesia, and seeing how Hibs are not rolling everyone in RvR, it would be likely to assume that A) It's not major OP, B) It's important to the dynamic. So if it's changed, it also needs to be offset by giving them something else (like you suggested)

But have to mention the above, and say that Albs (usually) only have 1 sorc in groups, that is 1 char to AoE mez, AoE root and 1 to Amnesia.
And that char is in cloth, and has no AoE mez to start inc with.


Again, thanks for keeping discussion clean and not (to) biased.
Mon 8 Oct 2018 8:45 AM by Druth
In general, I think Phoenix should mix things up a little more. Shake up the setups if you will.

Not saying any are good ideas, just that they are ideas but...:

- Move AoE/single target disease from Sham to SM.
- Move celerity from Healer to Thane and make it instant (1 min timer, 15 sec duration).
- Give zerkers 2nd chain sidestun.
- Swap cleric/paladin RA, BoF no longer affects caster.
- Give clerics single target mez.
- SoS/Group Purge/AM does not affect caster.
- Increase friar heals.

I could really continue, and like I said might not be good ideas. But we have the chance of changing the standard setupsm and add more flavour to DaoC, think it's sad we don't at least test it.
Mon 8 Oct 2018 4:21 PM by isocleas2
Changing a core mechanic of bards just so solos/small mans are able to avoid zergs better seems like a very weak reason to nerf hibernia.
Thu 29 Nov 2018 11:20 PM by defiasbandit
Bards are overtuned. 2300 instant amnesia is most oppressive ability on the server. Tons of players abusing bards in small man rvr.
Thu 29 Nov 2018 11:30 PM by BaldEagle
defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 29 Nov 2018 11:20 PM
Bards are overtuned. 2300 instant amnesia is most oppressive ability on the server. Tons of players abusing bards in small man rvr.

Agree... 2300 insta and can be casted multiple times with hardly a CD (10s should be MINIMAL)? LMAO do the Devs even look at stuff like this? Honestly...
Thu 29 Nov 2018 11:44 PM by BaldEagle
People thought the stealther pop was due to i50, but in reality it was due to Bards in small mans being OP.
Fri 30 Nov 2018 7:49 AM by Ceen
defiasbandit wrote:
Thu 29 Nov 2018 11:20 PM
Bards are overtuned. 2300 instant amnesia is most oppressive ability on the server. Tons of players abusing bards in small man rvr.
Abusing Bards in small man, this community is sooo bad
Fri 30 Nov 2018 8:23 AM by Uthred
Locked. Amnesia will not be changed. Thx.
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