Potential Archer Changes

Started 21 Aug 2020
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
The goal of these changes is to reduce the ranger population and while at it also to reduce the general effect of archers in siege fights:

A problematic ability in siege fights is volley, these are potential changes:
1) Longer cooldown, about 3 minutes
2) Damage set to a flat value not scaling with other archery stuff

As for changes to archery, a pretty big problem here is that all 3 archers are pretty much the same with just the hunter and ranger potentially having better self buffs, for the hunter this is somewhat offset by not having access to the slowest bows.
Anyways, due to those self buffs it'll always be the case that a ranger has a higher dex ceiling than a scout leading therefore to a higher average damage at the same archery spec. While ofc this dex advantage is pretty much only given for the bow only spec, it basically makes the ranger the best character for someone who wants to play that playstyle because even if a scout wanted to do it it would be less effective.

There are basically 2 solutions:
1) Do a ranger only nerf wrt archery damage
2) Give scout access to the self buffs and reduce archery damage in general so that a then fully self buffed scout does the same damage as a currently potion buffed scout

Solution 2 basically means:
Fold pathfinding self buffs into archery making it available to all 3 realms, remove pathfinding, remove hunter self buffs from beast mastery. The removal of pathfinding would mean reducing the skill points gained for rangers to not just give them a massive melee buff but to keep the essence / downsides of the current 50 48 bow only spec.
Fri 21 Aug 2020 9:42 PM by DJ2000
Longer cooldown is a welcome change, but 3 minutes fells kinda long.
Damage set to flate value is also a welcome change.

Putting PF selfbuffs into Archery line is a balancing act.

Will there be new Bows for mid?

Will the Scouts keep the 45 Shield?

Scouts will have mana now?
Fri 21 Aug 2020 10:23 PM by Fiatil
I'm assuming you'll be tweaking scout shield styles to remove slam and the root/snare as well, correct? If you give scouts all of the stat advantages of rangers, or remove the stat advantages rangers have relative to scouts, and keep their 9 second stun and the 99% snare/root....scouts become better than rangers in every practical way. The only advantage rangers would have over scouts is melee DPS, and all archer melee DPS is currently very bad. I would pick a scout with self buffs and slam over a ranger with self buffs and poor dual wielding damage 100 times out of 100.

It seems like the core issue is volley. Volley needs to be nerfed as a playstyle, and making all three archers volley equally well is fine. But you're doing that AND removing the advantages rangers have with non-volley archery, while giving them nothing to compensate. The unique tools differentiating the classes become ONLY the shield, the hunter pet, and celtic dual. I don't know anyone that would ever pick celtic dual over a 9 second shield stun (adding in the root/snare makes it off the charts ridiculous) or the hunter pet and spear. You're going to wind up with scouts after these changes outnumbering the amount of rangers we see today....and fairly heavily. There are already times when I see 40+ scouts on at the same time -- their shield styles give them amazing flexibility in how to approach encounters relative to rangers. The only thing keeping me from picking a scout over a ranger today, as someone who doesn't like volleyspamming, is just loving Hibernia. If you just fix the volley issue you are going to cut ranger numbers fairly substantially -- the rest is going to just heavily shift the balance towards scouts.
Fri 21 Aug 2020 11:08 PM by Centenario
Notes for next post:
- nearsight
- damage table
- range
- dual wield/2handed/1handed bonuses
- spec/styles/points/builds
- groupplay/gtaoe
- self-buffs
- group vs solo
Fri 21 Aug 2020 11:29 PM by Bradekes
If you give scouts pathfinding buffs and also combining those buffs with archery that's two buffs in one. If you combine pathfinding buffs with archery for ranger and lower skill points you've just buffed ranger then nerfed ranger. If you add buffs to archery for hunter you buffed bow hunter and nerfed melee hunter.

This would be a huge buff to scouts and nerfs everywhere else.. just give the buffs baseline to all archers and keep skill points the same that's fair to everyone. If you want to knock bow dmg down a notch nerf the self buffs a bit.
Fri 21 Aug 2020 11:34 PM by Forlornhope
Are you planning on putting hunter self buffs into archery? That will basically force every hunter to spec into bow and kill every single melee hunter in the game. Hunter's the only class and thing on this server I actually still enjoy, and this would basically kill the play style I use for seemingly no reason. I don't hit for anywhere near 900 with my bow how I am speced now, but forcing all the hunters who are speced in 27 bow to spec higher for their self buffs is just going to make them into high bow spec just like rangers and start grouping and doing the very thing you're trying to prevent with this change. Or they'll probably quit, I'd do the ladder tbh.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:00 AM by Symptomettes
Read everything instead of crying about it... If they give scout selfbuff there will be an overall archery nerf so that pretty much means :

First possibility : small increase in archery damage with the gain of dex even with overall archery nerf.
2 : No increase in any damage since the archery nerf will scale with the dex increase by the selfbuff.
3 : Archery damage nerf > Dex won by new self buff.

Stop QQing, scout is like the worst archers except in 1v1 fights (hunters are super nasty when they are played decently). Rangers... No need to talk about it since this change is because of them with the volley abuse and the stealth zerg during keep fights. Don't even ask to remoove the root style... Scout can't even do 10% damage in melee to a Sin or pretty much every class that have a decent avoidance. If you do that, scout Zerg is going to be even more crazy than before. Allowing a class to solo will reduce the stealth zerg for sure. Proof is : Full sniper spec for rangers are not played solo but in stealth zerg inside a zerg.

Why you guys crying about melee hunter since you will have the possibility to have more bow damage / better buff so more dex/quick that will increase your melee attack speed / damage. Total hypocrisy from that : 30 stealth, 32 beast 45 archery 44 spear and you call that a nerf... For real ? Dude seriously, that make the hybrid spec even more insane since you will get probably more from those buffs and the possibility to have some decent archery damage by the same time. What a nerf indeed for melee hunters !! Think please before calling for a NO WAY I WANT TO KEEP ARCHERY AS IT IS. It's broken, something has to be done and i really think the idea is good.

Volley nerf is totaly legit since most rangers are abusing about this skill to get tons of rps in keep fights (totaly broken let's be honest here)... Let others realms enjoy having decent archery damage too. Rangers is like the best archers since the launch and now that "hunters" and "scouts" will probably be on top, now we will get the hate from most zergers@haters on this topic. Let gm what they do the best : working and doing great things for us. So far the game is pretty much balance. Now people will get the possibility to be on walls again to defend during keep fights without loosing 100% in two seconds because of a 15sec skill that hits more than a 2H swing.

It's like sins with VIPER. Now all archery class get the same buffs and it was quite an important change to do... It's probably the difficult one to choose since you will need a lot of work to do that, but in the end all archers having selfbuff is the most balance choice for sure.

Great works, was really waiting for that class balance. Thanks !
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:04 AM by Cadebrennus
I knew this was coming. It has very little to do with the actual damage and effectiveness of Archery in general and Rangers specifically. Rangers are just the most fun to play which is why they have the highest population of the 3 Archers.

Volley itself is incredibly easy to counter in a myriad of ways, but dumb as a box of rocks players would rather whine about Volley than do something about it themselves.

The shortsightedness of players and Devs, especially considering Archery, is why I'm not playing an Archer right now. I absolutely knew this ridiculous nerf was coming and soon. The Devs are all too easy to predict in their knee jerk reactions to a whiney player base. This is the exact same path that Broadsword took on Live.

Devs, you just went full Broadsword. Never go full Broadsword.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:06 AM by gruenesschaf
In case it wasn't clear, feel free to provide alternatives.

There are no strong feelings about the kind of solution, the only thing that matters in this case in the aforementioned goals: reduction in ranger population and generally reducing the effects of archers on sieges although the latter is likely best achieved via a longer volley cd.

Solution 1 is super simple in terms of implementation and the impact is quite easy to see, it aims to reduce the ranger population via a direct nerf.
Solution 2 is a lot more complicated and has potentially weird interactions / consequences, it aims to reduce the ranger population via a small nerf while also buffing scouts and thereby potentially shifting some players over. This would also imo remove one layer of differences that's there for the sake of having differences while still keeping the iconic differences, ie dw vs shield vs pet/2h, basically the ranged damage parts move a bit closer together while not really touching the melee part all that much. The most difficult part here will be the handling of the hunter.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:10 AM by gruenesschaf
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:04 AM
The shortsightedness of players and Devs, especially considering Archery, is why I'm not playing an Archer right now. I absolutely knew this ridiculous nerf was coming and soon. The Devs are all too easy to predict in their knee jerk reactions to a whiney player base. This is the exact same path that Broadsword took on Live.

Do a /serverinfo 50 at almost any time.

Nobody is helped when an overabundance of stealthers exists and it's even more detrimental when those stealthers are all from the same realm and it's even worse when it's the ranged kind. In this case there would not even have been the need to look at any numbers but the population count.

A nerf / buff doesn't neccessarily have to be justified by the theoretical performance of that class, it's enough if a huge perception problem exists that made the class fotm to the extent the ranger is right now, be it misguided or for real. And just to be clear, in this particular case the class being fotm to that extent is backed up by the theoretical performance, ie ranger is currently the highest damage archer class, not by a huge margin but still. It also doesn't help when a realm has the str relics for a prolonged amount of time.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:22 AM by Hector
Why does it matter how many rangers there are? If people want to play rangers, let them. The server is not adversely effected by this and if you nerf rangers you might indirectly hurt the server population.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:24 AM by daytonchambers
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:04 AM
I knew this was coming. It has very little to do with the actual damage and effectiveness of Archery in general and Rangers specifically. Rangers are just the most fun to play which is why they have the highest population of the 3 Archers.

Volley itself is incredibly easy to counter in a myriad of ways, but dumb as a box of rocks players would rather whine about Volley than do something about it themselves.

The shortsightedness of players and Devs, especially considering Archery, is why I'm not playing an Archer right now. I absolutely knew this ridiculous nerf was coming and soon. The Devs are all too easy to predict in their knee jerk reactions to a whiney player base. This is the exact same path that Broadsword took on Live.

Devs, you just went full Broadsword. Never go full Broadsword.

Having played a ranger to r7 on this server as well as my newer hunter at r5 I can say that the Hunter is more fun to play, while the Ranger is easier to get cheese wins with which is one reason so many enjoy the class. Winning is fun.

Volley itself is NOT easy to counter when there are 3+ rotating their volley shots. Which, in keep fights, is pretty much the case 100% of the time. The roof is simply a non-starter for using as a defensible position when 85%+ of the roof is coated in indirect AOE fire from both archers and GT casters. The difference is that while gtaoe is indeed annoying as all hell you can at least SEE where people are getting hit so you can avoid said area. With volley you don't even know you're in a volley spot till you start taking the damage. And if you get 2+ archers assisting that spot you'll be snared from low health before you can even escape. You know it, I know it.

Rangers at this point in time happen to be in the sweet spot. Archery damage is great while still having decent melee ability, lots of the little doods so lots of groups out there, and having the relics so often lately just compounds the advantages that were already present which have turned an annoyance into a real problem for server balance.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:29 AM by daytonchambers
Hector wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:22 AM
Why does it matter how many rangers there are? If people want to play rangers, let them. The server is not adversely effected by this and if you nerf rangers you might indirectly hurt the server population.

If 25% or more of your realm is playing one class that isn't even in a group-critical role then that's pretty compelling evidence that the class needs tweaking.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:49 AM by Kwall0311
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:04 AM
I knew this was coming. It has very little to do with the actual damage and effectiveness of Archery in general and Rangers specifically. Rangers are just the most fun to play which is why they have the highest population of the 3 Archers.

Volley itself is incredibly easy to counter in a myriad of ways, but dumb as a box of rocks players would rather whine about Volley than do something about it themselves.

The shortsightedness of players and Devs, especially considering Archery, is why I'm not playing an Archer right now. I absolutely knew this ridiculous nerf was coming and soon. The Devs are all too easy to predict in their knee jerk reactions to a whiney player base. This is the exact same path that Broadsword took on Live.

Devs, you just went full Broadsword. Never go full Broadsword.

The fact that you admit you barely play on this server really shows here in that comment. Think you have the counter to volley all figured out with a dot on your shield or "moving out of the way" . You literally have no idea how it is being used right now in keep sieges. Not to mention 30+ archers using volley in the front of - inside a keep area, gt assisting, On rams/catas/corners, etc. 400+ dmg per arrow x5 let alone crit. Thanks for the good laugh as usual....
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:31 AM by Layuth
Obliterate volley damage to GTAoE levels. Problem solved. Any other time and effort spent on the other stuff could be much better spent on other things.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:41 AM by Lokkjim
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:06 AM
In case it wasn't clear, feel free to provide alternatives.

There are no strong feelings about the kind of solution, the only thing that matters in this case in the aforementioned goals: reduction in ranger population and generally reducing the effects of archers on sieges although the latter is likely best achieved via a longer volley cd.

Solution 1 is super simple in terms of implementation and the impact is quite easy to see, it aims to reduce the ranger population via a direct nerf.
Solution 2 is a lot more complicated and has potentially weird interactions / consequences, it aims to reduce the ranger population via a small nerf while also buffing scouts and thereby potentially shifting some players over. This would also imo remove one layer of differences that's there for the sake of having differences while still keeping the iconic differences, ie dw vs shield vs pet/2h, basically the ranged damage parts move a bit closer together while not really touching the melee part all that much. The most difficult part here will be the handling of the hunter.

I'll assume that you all have read the threads about archery damage. How did you feel about converting arrows to operate like bolts or would that be too big of a nerf?
To quote daytonchambers from the suggestions thread plz nerf rangers: "One of the reasons that caster bolts are under-valued is because a similar mechanic is in place for them where the bolt has a higher miss rate if the target is in combat with somebody else. So, technically, the code for bolt misses could be applied to archery which would increase miss rates when there are multiple attackers."

Solution 1 isn't enough in my opinion. I know scouts don't do as much damage as a ranger, but they are still capable of 400+ damage on a normal shot. I also don't think scouts should get access to self buffs and have root/slam at the same time, as someone said earlier, giving them self buffs with shield will probably just lead to scouts being fotm with the nerf. But if I had to choose between these two solutions I would pick the second one giving buffs to every archer.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:48 AM by Svekt
First of all...

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:29 AM
Hector wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:22 AM
Why does it matter how many rangers there are? If people want to play rangers, let them. The server is not adversely effected by this and if you nerf rangers you might indirectly hurt the server population.

If 25% or more of your realm is playing one class that isn't even in a group-critical role then that's pretty compelling evidence that the class needs tweaking.

Amen, well said and direct. I can't stress this enough, the evidence is in the numbers.

1) Volley definitely needs adjusting and a larger cool down... Now 3 mins may seem like a long wait, but if people stay on the classes there would still be enough archers to consistently volley the roof if they just rotate who fires when, and there are plenty of ranger squads in hib. I support the three mins, and it being an 8 point spend it should def have a longer cool down than 15 secs. For comparison sake, the first three levels of purge are 5 pt purchases with a 15 , 15, and 10 min cool down. Moving the timer to 3 mins just makes sense.

2) I would be extremely careful with the buffs going to all 3 archers, more specifically this is directed at Scouts. The unique case of the scout is that when played right it can endlessly kite you to kill you which basically means damage value is irrelevant. You can literally shoot someone till they make it to you and either slam shoot from there or snare kite then shoot. In the event someone purges the slam or snare, the snare can be reapplied immediately since there is no immunity. They are already good at this, just giving them buffs would just make it more disgusting every time it happens,

If you do give the buffs to everyone, you need to add immunity to the anytime snare on scouts. I predict that if you do not, that scouts will transition to flavor of the month even with a nerf to bow damage itself. This is more compounded by the fact that albs are the only full stealther group to get speed and sos into the build, couple that with anytime snares and slams and you have a real winner build...

I think the changes for the most part are well thought out, however you really need to carefully measure and try to predict how the population responds. It's clear that players in general who lack the time to play as much as they want, will inevitably choose a powerful class so that its easier to pick up and play while remaining successful in your adventures.

I suggest:
1)cut the buff they got to damage in half, leaving them with a partial buff to archery but not buffed to the extent it was before.
2)simply reduce pathfinding and beastcraft buffs to be closer in line (but not = to) with max values of combo potions since you took away mastery of arcane effect on these, this will shorten the gap between dex ceiling on classes.
3)readjust the volley timer as suggested.

Doing this will place archery damage between old values and current values, somewhat appeasing the classes who requested the boost in the first place. Once you reduce the buffs from pathfinding and beastcraft their damage values will be closer and less drastic of a damage difference.

Last but not least, the fix to volley will make defending a tower/keep some what plausible, as right now with no access to the roof or walls, you get stuck inside a closed area where aoe and things like twf create havoc and destruction.

I'm a huge fan of big battles, but right now those big battles happen less and less due to the rampant use of gtaoe and volley, but gtaoe is a discussion for another thread on another day.
Just pointing this out right here tho: It might be part of the problem with volley and gtaoe is directly related to how easy it is to place a GT on the roof of a structure. Currently all you have to do is drop a ram and hop in the driver seat - from there its as simple as panning your camera out and anywhere you click will drop a GT. Currently BG leaders instruct ram drivers to place GT on roof or on rampart or its done by climbers setting GT.

Personally I think that if you just adjust the way a GT is set, and lock it to only being done with a key press or macro it would be a lot harder for people to position these devastating ground targets so quickly and effectively.

This in itself is have the problem. ^
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:51 AM by thirian24
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:06 AM
In case it wasn't clear, feel free to provide alternatives.

There are no strong feelings about the kind of solution, the only thing that matters in this case in the aforementioned goals: reduction in ranger population and generally reducing the effects of archers on sieges although the latter is likely best achieved via a longer volley cd.

Solution 1 is super simple in terms of implementation and the impact is quite easy to see, it aims to reduce the ranger population via a direct nerf.
Solution 2 is a lot more complicated and has potentially weird interactions / consequences,it aims to reduce the ranger population via a small nerf while also buffing scouts and thereby potentially shifting some players over. This would also imo remove one layer of differences that's there for the sake of having differences while still keeping the iconic differences, ie dw vs shield vs pet/2h, basically the ranged damage parts move a bit closer together while not really touching the melee part all that much. The most difficult part here will be the handling of the hunter.

Imo this wont work. People that have already leveled, temped and gained RR on Rangers, arent simply going to swap over to a scout or Hunter b/c the playing field is slightly more even, and then go through the hassle of lvling, temping and gaining RR all over again. Theyll just stay where they are, and the Ranger overpop will persist.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:54 AM by Arla
Remove stealth classes from the game. Fixed.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:55 AM by thirian24
Arla wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:54 AM
Remove stealth classes from the game. Fixed.

+1
Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:12 AM by daytonchambers
Arla wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:54 AM
Remove stealth classes from the game. Fixed.

No.

I don't want to be forced to group or go to some lame assed dueling zone.

I tried solo on a vis, really tried. After getting run over by smalls or full groups dozens of times for every time I actually managed to get a fair-ish fight I simply gave up. Nobody finds a 1-2% win rate fun. Nobody. Which is why all visible solo play is gone from the frontiers.

Being stealthed lets me roam, and report on smalls or groups moving around the frontier so that our guys can engage them instead of me. Then the adds predictably hit the dust-up and hopefully its red or green adds so that I can shoot at them and I might even score a kill out of the whole thing.

That's how I like to play, and being a sneak makes that possible.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:19 AM by Forlornhope
Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:00 AM
Read everything instead of crying about it... If they give scout selfbuff there will be an overall archery nerf so that pretty much means :

First possibility : small increase in archery damage with the gain of dex even with overall archery nerf.
2 : No increase in any damage since the archery nerf will scale with the dex increase by the selfbuff.
3 : Archery damage nerf > Dex won by new self buff.

Stop QQing, scout is like the worst archers except in 1v1 fights (hunters are super nasty when they are played decently). Rangers... No need to talk about it since this change is because of them with the volley abuse and the stealth zerg during keep fights. Don't even ask to remoove the root style... Scout can't even do 10% damage in melee to a Sin or pretty much every class that have a decent avoidance. If you do that, scout Zerg is going to be even more crazy than before. Allowing a class to solo will reduce the stealth zerg for sure. Proof is : Full sniper spec for rangers are not played solo but in stealth zerg inside a zerg.

Why you guys crying about melee hunter since you will have the possibility to have more bow damage / better buff so more dex/quick that will increase your melee attack speed / damage. Total hypocrisy from that : 30 stealth, 32 beast 45 archery 44 spear and you call that a nerf... For real ? Dude seriously, that make the hybrid spec even more insane since you will get probably more from those buffs and the possibility to have some decent archery damage by the same time. What a nerf indeed for melee hunters !! Think please before calling for a NO WAY I WANT TO KEEP ARCHERY AS IT IS. It's broken, something has to be done and i really think the idea is good.

Volley nerf is totaly legit since most rangers are abusing about this skill to get tons of rps in keep fights (totaly broken let's be honest here)... Let others realms enjoy having decent archery damage too. Rangers is like the best archers since the launch and now that "hunters" and "scouts" will probably be on top, now we will get the hate from most zergers@haters on this topic. Let gm what they do the best : working and doing great things for us. So far the game is pretty much balance. Now people will get the possibility to be on walls again to defend during keep fights without loosing 100% in two seconds because of a 15sec skill that hits more than a 2H swing.

It's like sins with VIPER. Now all archery class get the same buffs and it was quite an important change to do... It's probably the difficult one to choose since you will need a lot of work to do that, but in the end all archers having selfbuff is the most balance choice for sure.

Great works, was really waiting for that class balance. Thanks !

And when the hunter who wants to focus more on the melee aspect of their class drops to 30 stealth can't reach comp 50 until rr10? They'll be even more fodder for the tons of rr10+ shades and infils out there. If they reduce their beast craft more they loose out on what helps them to be viable in the melee setting, the pet damage. It would be a nerf to them plain and simple.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:28 AM by Lokkjim
Arla wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:54 AM
Remove stealth classes from the game. Fixed.

If you remove stealth classes better compensate well. Assassin templates are super expensive. If they only removed stealth that could change the dynamic of groups as the classes that had stealth removed would receive a buff to compete in the visible world. Solo stealthers would also just switch to speed classes, people already complain about minstrels, do you really want more? Removing a class has the potential to dynamically change the server from something that has worked to something that may or may not work. Don't just suggest a change like this without considering the effect it could have on the game itself.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 5:07 AM by Aminita
I guess it is all in perspective ... ALb and Mid whine about Hib volley.. WHY? Hibs they WORK together !!! Mid and Alb COULD team their range but they do not.! The Timer is the same ,, damage is the same within 10% or so.. AND Hib is currently the top dog.. IF they were NOT top dog, you wouldn't have the whining .. ya think???
The Hib ranger hasn't changed in 20 years.. NOW the QQQ... about the Pew pew pew.. Think about it,
Sat 22 Aug 2020 5:07 AM by gotwqqd
Aside from the supposed volley issues(overblown if you ask me) the issues are stealthers packed together and assisting.

Put some heavy detection improvisions in when enemies(both realms) are congregating closely, no matter if grouped or not.
And remove the no immunity from scout shield snare and add an offensive shield style sub 42 with decent damage, a to hit bonus, and reduced endurance cost
Sat 22 Aug 2020 6:29 AM by Stoertebecker
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Aug 2020 9:09 PM
The goal of these changes is to reduce the ranger population and while at it also to reduce the general effect of archers in siege fights:

A problematic ability in siege fights is volley, these are potential changes:
1) Longer cooldown, about 3 minutes
2) Damage set to a flat value not scaling with other archery stuff

As for changes to archery, a pretty big problem here is that all 3 archers are pretty much the same with just the hunter and ranger potentially having better self buffs, for the hunter this is somewhat offset by not having access to the slowest bows.
Anyways, due to those self buffs it'll always be the case that a ranger has a higher dex ceiling than a scout leading therefore to a higher average damage at the same archery spec. While ofc this dex advantage is pretty much only given for the bow only spec, it basically makes the ranger the best character for someone who wants to play that playstyle because even if a scout wanted to do it it would be less effective.

There are basically 2 solutions:
1) Do a ranger only nerf wrt archery damage
2) Give scout access to the self buffs and reduce archery damage in general so that a then fully self buffed scout does the same damage as a currently potion buffed scout

Solution 2 basically means:
Fold pathfinding self buffs into archery making it available to all 3 realms, remove pathfinding, remove hunter self buffs from beast mastery. The removal of pathfinding would mean reducing the skill points gained for rangers to not just give them a massive melee buff but to keep the essence / downsides of the current 50 48 bow only spec.

Volley cooldown about 3 mins is a bit over the top.

What about the live server archery system? Too complicated, too much stuff to do?
Sat 22 Aug 2020 7:15 AM by Cadebrennus
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:49 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:04 AM
I knew this was coming. It has very little to do with the actual damage and effectiveness of Archery in general and Rangers specifically. Rangers are just the most fun to play which is why they have the highest population of the 3 Archers.

Volley itself is incredibly easy to counter in a myriad of ways, but dumb as a box of rocks players would rather whine about Volley than do something about it themselves.

The shortsightedness of players and Devs, especially considering Archery, is why I'm not playing an Archer right now. I absolutely knew this ridiculous nerf was coming and soon. The Devs are all too easy to predict in their knee jerk reactions to a whiney player base. This is the exact same path that Broadsword took on Live.

Devs, you just went full Broadsword. Never go full Broadsword.

The fact that you admit you barely play on this server really shows here in that comment. Think you have the counter to volley all figured out with a dot on your shield or "moving out of the way" . You literally have no idea how it is being used right now in keep sieges. Not to mention 30+ archers using volley in the front of - inside a keep area, gt assisting, On rams/catas/corners, etc. 400+ dmg per arrow x5 let alone crit. Thanks for the good laugh as usual....

I've been playing my Merc, and I have yet to die to a Volley. When I was playing my Ranger and there were 3+ Scouts assist Volleying I also never died to a Volley. I just ran around the keeps with my unspecced Shield with a DoT proc and never died. One or two arrows hit, the others never land, and the ones that I blocked with an unspecced Shield often DoTted the Archer and interrupted them.

So yes I play (just not often) and since server launch I've never died to a Volley.

Just because I don't spend 4+ hours every day playing doesn't mean that I "don't play". It means that I have a life outside of this game.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 7:17 AM by Cadebrennus
Aminita wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 5:07 AM
I guess it is all in perspective ... ALb and Mid whine about Hib volley.. WHY? Hibs they WORK together !!! Mid and Alb COULD team their range but they do not.! The Timer is the same ,, damage is the same within 10% or so.. AND Hib is currently the top dog.. IF they were NOT top dog, you wouldn't have the whining .. ya think???
The Hib ranger hasn't changed in 20 years.. NOW the QQQ... about the Pew pew pew.. Think about it,

Exactly this.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 7:26 AM by Cadebrennus
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:06 AM
In case it wasn't clear, feel free to provide alternatives.

There are no strong feelings about the kind of solution, the only thing that matters in this case in the aforementioned goals: reduction in ranger population and generally reducing the effects of archers on sieges although the latter is likely best achieved via a longer volley cd.

Solution 1 is super simple in terms of implementation and the impact is quite easy to see, it aims to reduce the ranger population via a direct nerf.
Solution 2 is a lot more complicated and has potentially weird interactions / consequences, it aims to reduce the ranger population via a small nerf while also buffing scouts and thereby potentially shifting some players over. This would also imo remove one layer of differences that's there for the sake of having differences while still keeping the iconic differences, ie dw vs shield vs pet/2h, basically the ranged damage parts move a bit closer together while not really touching the melee part all that much. The most difficult part here will be the handling of the hunter.

1. Remove the Shield snare style. Make Scouts spec for snares in their weapon lines like everyone else. If they don't use snare styles in their current weapon lines it's a problem with the players, not the game.

2. Give Scouts PF

3. Leave spec points alone for all three Archers.

4. Make Volley damage and cool down reuse match other classes GTAoe spells up to 1500 range. Make it so that the farther it is past 1500 the lower damage it does.

5. No need to increase passive block chance. It's already doing its job vs arrows in open field and in keep defense/offense. If a Caster (most of whom can't carry Shields) dies to a Volley it's because of multiple reasons; a) they're standing outside for too long trying to rack up those RPs (they got greedy), b) they're not working with their groupmates and having their group's Shield Tank guard them, c) they're not refreshing their self casted BT, d) their group's PBT person is asleep at the wheel.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 8:39 AM by Saroi
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 7:26 AM
5. No need to increase passive block chance. It's already doing its job vs arrows in open field and in keep defense/offense. If a Caster (most of whom can't carry Shields) dies to a Volley it's because of multiple reasons; a) they're standing outside for too long trying to rack up those RPs (they got greedy), b) they're not working with their groupmates and having their group's Shield Tank guard them, c) they're not refreshing their self casted BT, d) their group's PBT person is asleep at the wheel.

I agree with point a and b.

c and d is not something you can blame a caster. Volley, just like long shot are RA's and therefor penetrate all bubbles in game.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 8:49 AM by Lokkjim
Cadebrennus wrote: 1. Remove the Shield snare style. Make Scouts spec for snares in their weapon lines like everyone else. If they don't use snare styles in their current weapon lines it's a problem with the players, not the game.

2. Give Scouts PF

3. Leave spec points alone for all three Archers.

4. Make Volley damage and cool down reuse match other classes GTAoe spells up to 1500 range. Make it so that the farther it is past 1500 the lower damage it does.

5. No need to increase passive block chance. It's already doing its job vs arrows in open field and in keep defense/offense. If a Caster (most of whom can't carry Shields) dies to a Volley it's because of multiple reasons; a) they're standing outside for too long trying to rack up those RPs (they got greedy), b) they're not working with their groupmates and having their group's Shield Tank guard them, c) they're not refreshing their self casted BT, d) their group's PBT person is asleep at the wheel.

1. Scout spec snare is a side snare at 21 slash or an evade snare at 10 thrust. Rangers get a side snare at 10 blades. You can't really expect a scout to rely on an evade snare.

2. Is this with or without the damage decrease? If the damage is staying the same can you explain why you think an archer needs 400~ damage normal shots? Also, hunters would probably then complain that their counterparts get red dex/qui at 48 while they have to go full 50.

3. I'd like to see that happen if pathfinding isn't put into archery, because I know melee rangers are a thing and I don't think they should lose their buffs for one aspect of their class.

4. I like your volley suggestion to make damage and cooldown match other gtaoes.

5. I don't think passive block chance needs to be increased either.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 8:54 AM by Cadebrennus
Saroi wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 8:39 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 7:26 AM
5. No need to increase passive block chance. It's already doing its job vs arrows in open field and in keep defense/offense. If a Caster (most of whom can't carry Shields) dies to a Volley it's because of multiple reasons; a) they're standing outside for too long trying to rack up those RPs (they got greedy), b) they're not working with their groupmates and having their group's Shield Tank guard them, c) they're not refreshing their self casted BT, d) their group's PBT person is asleep at the wheel.

I agree with point a and b.

c and d is not something you can blame a caster. Volley, just like long shot are RA's and therefor penetrate all bubbles in game.

Good point. I forgot about it penetrating PBT. However, putting it in line with other casted spells is reasonable I think, particularly if tied to varying levels of Archery spec like other GTAoE spells are
Sat 22 Aug 2020 9:21 AM by Cadebrennus
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 8:49 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: 1. Remove the Shield snare style. Make Scouts spec for snares in their weapon lines like everyone else. If they don't use snare styles in their current weapon lines it's a problem with the players, not the game.

2. Give Scouts PF

3. Leave spec points alone for all three Archers.

4. Make Volley damage and cool down reuse match other classes GTAoe spells up to 1500 range. Make it so that the farther it is past 1500 the lower damage it does.

5. No need to increase passive block chance. It's already doing its job vs arrows in open field and in keep defense/offense. If a Caster (most of whom can't carry Shields) dies to a Volley it's because of multiple reasons; a) they're standing outside for too long trying to rack up those RPs (they got greedy), b) they're not working with their groupmates and having their group's Shield Tank guard them, c) they're not refreshing their self casted BT, d) their group's PBT person is asleep at the wheel.

1. Scout spec snare is a side snare at 21 slash or an evade snare at 10 thrust. Rangers get a side snare at 10 blades. You can't really expect a scout to rely on an evade snare.

2. Is this with or without the damage decrease? If the damage is staying the same can you explain why you think an archer needs 400~ damage normal shots? Also, hunters would probably then complain that their counterparts get red dex/qui at 48 while they have to go full 50.

3. I'd like to see that happen if pathfinding isn't put into archery, because I know melee rangers are a thing and I don't think they should lose their buffs for one aspect of their class.

4. I like your volley suggestion to make damage and cooldown match other gtaoes.

5. I don't think passive block chance needs to be increased either.

1. Any class in Alb that can spec in base weapon lines can spec 21 Slash or 44 Thrust for snare styles. Hunters and Rangers already have to give up spec points in Archery to dedicate to other lines. Scouts don't NEED 42 Shield. 42 Shield is a crutch for players who can't land positionals or reactionaries. My Merc uses Beartooth exclusively as a block reactionary, even when there is a stun immunity timer, because the GR is that good on it. I don't recall a single Scout using Beartooth against me in melee when I played Mid during beta and Hib before and after launch.

2. Unless Archers get more utility (ranged CC, etc.) they should get that damage. I've been absolutely obliterated by one or two Casters who caught me in open field combat. I've never died to one or two Archers just shooting at me, EVER in any situation, from any realm. Caster damage is high AND they have utility. Archers just have damage and Stealth (which is good but useless once you're unstealthed)
Sat 22 Aug 2020 9:55 AM by Freedomcall
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Aug 2020 9:09 PM
Solution 2 basically means:
Fold pathfinding self buffs into archery making it available to all 3 realms, remove pathfinding, remove hunter self buffs from beast mastery. The removal of pathfinding would mean reducing the skill points gained for rangers to not just give them a massive melee buff but to keep the essence / downsides of the current 50 48 bow only spec.

Just wanted to make sure what folding pathfinding into archery exactly means.
Does it mean hunters and scouts will also get base str and self dmg add buffs as well as d/q?
And also speed warp and spec af for scouts too?
Sat 22 Aug 2020 10:11 AM by Cadebrennus
To reiterate my intentions, I'm all for balance, not for Archer or Ranger supremacy.

Just after launch I predicted that giving single style evade stuns to the Blades and Slash lines would unbalance the game and in particular the Stealther wars. Here we are, much later with too many Blades/Slash Rangers, Nightshades, and Infils, and an armor vulnerability weapon type nerf to appease the whiners.

A huge shift in balance back towards actual balance would be to change the evade stuns back to off-block stuns. This would force players to decide between better weapon to armor tables and a greater variety in weapons used, weapon styles to be encountered, and play styles. There is obviously a "meta" going on here and it's purely towards Blades/Slash, completely ignoring Thrust/Pierce. This would also re-balance Archer melee, and so many people would not flock to the Ranger because of the current advantage of Blades (best weapon tables + evade stun + ASR) and Slash (excellent anytime chain damage + evade stun) over all of the other lines. Without the evade stun Hib players (and Alb players)

Devs, if you truly care about balance and are looking at nerfs based not on power but based on what people are playing/using, then you should revert the weapon styles back to what they were upon launch. Don't bother with this inane "style review" that just turns this game into WoW and Live.

Too many people use Blades/Slash. That's your fault from shortly after launch and you should fix it. The fix is noted above.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 10:12 AM by Symptomettes
Always the same 10 players whining about shield snare... Come on, moove on. Scout needs it, stop this hypocrisy. Dual wield is moded here, less chance to block, NF Ra so purge couldown way shorter, two health pots, armor resistance nerf, MOS... Most little thing is a gap killer for scout to make him viable like others archery class.

Scout in classic was supposed to have the biggest range and biggest damage. All three archers get the same Dex=WS value, same range. No scout is complaining about it. And rangers are insane since the new archery change and it's been months the rvr is broken cause of it. Others can have their moments too no ?

WTF is wrong... Why do we have to spec 44 to get an anytime snare when 44 or 5 in melee spec is exactly the same. It's useless, our melee damage can't be decent. Just look videos on discord and you will see how ridiculous it is to try to melee someone. It's not classic here, they are trying to balance class so people asking to remoove that skill don't understand why they implemented it. Scout need that snare, nothing else. It's only decent in 1v1 and small man... And can be counter easily except for two classes : Zerk / Savage. Whao ! Two of the lowest class played here. And tbh, look scouts number on prime time, it's not like people are abusing of it.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 10:13 AM by Cadebrennus
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 9:55 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Aug 2020 9:09 PM
Solution 2 basically means:
Fold pathfinding self buffs into archery making it available to all 3 realms, remove pathfinding, remove hunter self buffs from beast mastery. The removal of pathfinding would mean reducing the skill points gained for rangers to not just give them a massive melee buff but to keep the essence / downsides of the current 50 48 bow only spec.

Just wanted to make sure what folding pathfinding into archery exactly means.
Does it mean hunters and scouts will also get base str and self dmg add buffs as well as d/q?
And also speed warp and spec af for scouts too?

Folding it into the Archery line means that the class that routinely ignores any kind of melee spec (at their own peril) will immediately become the ranged kings of Archery. I am of course talking about Scouts.

Instead, putting it into a separate speccable line forces them to make choices much like Hunters and Rangers do now.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 10:21 AM by Cadebrennus
Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 10:12 AM
Always the same 10 players whining about shield snare... Come on, moove on. Scout needs it, stop this hypocrisy. Dual wield is moded here, less chance to block, NF Ra so purge couldown way shorter, two health pots, armor resistance nerf, MOS... Most little thing is a gap killer for scout to make him viable like others archery class.

Scout in classic was supposed to have the biggest range and biggest damage. All three archers get the same Dex=WS value, same range. No scout is complaining about it. And rangers are insane since the new archery change and it's been months the rvr is broken cause of it. Others can have their moments too no ?

WTF is wrong... Why do we have to spec 44 to get an anytime snare when 44 or 5 in melee spec is exactly the same. It's useless, our melee damage can't be decent. Just look videos on discord and you will see how ridiculous it is to try to melee someone. It's not classic here, they are trying to balance class so people asking to remoove that skill don't understand why they implemented it. Scout need that snare, nothing else. It's only decent in 1v1 and small man... And can be counter easily except for two classes : Zerk / Savage. Whao ! Two of the lowest class played here. And tbh, look scouts number on prime time, it's not like people are abusing of it.

Or you can try 21 Slash. Or just whine about putting points into Slash to get to 21. Your choice.

The massive whines about Ranger damage happened when Hib had all three strength relics. People like you conveniently forget that.

Scout isn't supposed to be the strongest Archer of the three. They were designed to be balanced against the other Archers and other realms. They were designed to be the longest range (just a bit, I know) and also the most group-friendly (Shield + the group goodies that go with having a Shield in group.) You are probably mis-remembering when Scouts DID dominate OF, and that was 2 or 3 guys (who were soloers) running around BOTTED and killing green to yellow unbotted players before /face even existed. That's why they were dominant. /Face and BT were put into place to combat these botted Scouts, and when that wasn't enough, Mythic nerfed Archery so that a botted Archer was balanced against an unbotted player of another class.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 10:41 AM by Lokkjim
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 9:21 AM
1. Any class in Alb that can spec in base weapon lines can spec 21 Slash or 44 Thrust for snare styles. Hunters and Rangers already have to give up spec points in Archery to dedicate to other lines. Scouts don't NEED 42 Shield. 42 Shield is a crutch for players who can't land positionals or reactionaries. My Merc uses Beartooth exclusively as a block reactionary, even when there is a stun immunity timer, because the GR is that good on it. I don't recall a single Scout using Beartooth against me in melee when I played Mid during beta and Hib before and after launch.

2. Unless Archers get more utility (ranged CC, etc.) they should get that damage. I've been absolutely obliterated by one or two Casters who caught me in open field combat. I've never died to one or two Archers just shooting at me, EVER in any situation, from any realm. Caster damage is high AND they have utility. Archers just have damage and Stealth (which is good but useless once you're unstealthed)

1. What spec do you have where you give up points in Archery to get a snare? You can do 35 stealth, 15 blades, 15 CD, 50 Archery, and 42 PF at RR5 and have the snare. Sure you might need some MoA to get full buffs and have the snare but otherwise you wouldn't be giving up much. Heck, at RR8 with 32 stealth you can have the snare, red buffs, and 50 archery. Hunters also get their snare at 15. 42 Shield might seem like a crutch when it comes to the stun but they need the shield spec as well to even have a chance in melee. If scouts got the buffs in archery, less than 42 shield could be acceptable.

2. If a stealther is caught out of stealth, that should be death with a caster. And you say you've never died to archers shooting you in ANY situation. Even when they are adding on? I find this hard to believe. If you mean to say one or two archers catching you out of stealth haven't killed you before, well that's easily explained. You have a speed burst and then stealth. Just outrange or LoS and stealth away. If a stealth class is caught out of stealth it should be a disadvantage. I've said this before and I'm sure you've read it, archers can keep their damage in a solo situation, but when adding or when in a group it should be decreased.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 11:03 AM by Symptomettes
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 10:21 AM
Or you can try 21 Slash. Or just whine about putting points into Slash to get to 21. Your choice.

The massive whines about Ranger damage happened when Hib had all three strength relics. People like you conveniently forget that.

Scout isn't supposed to be the strongest Archer of the three. They were designed to be balanced against the other Archers and other realms. They were designed to be the longest range (just a bit, I know) and also the most group-friendly (Shield + the group goodies that go with having a Shield in group.) You are probably mis-remembering when Scouts DID dominate OF, and that was 2 or 3 guys (who were soloers) running around BOTTED and killing green to yellow unbotted players before /face even existed. That's why they were dominant. /Face and BT were put into place to combat these botted Scouts, and when that wasn't enough, Mythic nerfed Archery so that a botted Archer was balanced against an unbotted player of another class.

We are not talking about classic or Mythic decision here but about fact that archery should be the same for the three realms... Hib got moded dual wield / Hunter pet + two hand / Scout : shield without any way of melee. Dunno why you are talking about side snare at 21 slash rofl. So a class that can only damage with bow without anyway to be decent in melee should use 40% snare ? They implemented it cause scout was in serious need of something. Don't try to argue with that, look just how dumb the number of root style topic there is and they still got it for a simple reason : They need it.

Gm said that "IF" selfbuff was given to scout, the archery damage will be nerf so that it scales on the Dex given by the selfbuff so why does the class have to be nerf when it's already the worst from the three archers... Most friendly in grp ? We are talking about the archery class itself, not how it is in grp. It has a guard, whao big deal. If a scout is guarding someone, they can't deal anymore. If you really want to whine about friendly stealther, do that for the minstrel... Scout is nowhere as friendly as a mins is. Cut the bullshit dude.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 11:03 AM by Cadebrennus
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 10:41 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 9:21 AM
1. Any class in Alb that can spec in base weapon lines can spec 21 Slash or 44 Thrust for snare styles. Hunters and Rangers already have to give up spec points in Archery to dedicate to other lines. Scouts don't NEED 42 Shield. 42 Shield is a crutch for players who can't land positionals or reactionaries. My Merc uses Beartooth exclusively as a block reactionary, even when there is a stun immunity timer, because the GR is that good on it. I don't recall a single Scout using Beartooth against me in melee when I played Mid during beta and Hib before and after launch.

2. Unless Archers get more utility (ranged CC, etc.) they should get that damage. I've been absolutely obliterated by one or two Casters who caught me in open field combat. I've never died to one or two Archers just shooting at me, EVER in any situation, from any realm. Caster damage is high AND they have utility. Archers just have damage and Stealth (which is good but useless once you're unstealthed)

1. What spec do you have where you give up points in Archery to get a snare? You can do 35 stealth, 15 blades, 15 CD, 50 Archery, and 42 PF at RR5 and have the snare. Sure you might need some MoA to get full buffs and have the snare but otherwise you wouldn't be giving up much. Heck, at RR8 with 32 stealth you can have the snare, red buffs, and 50 archery. Hunters also get their snare at 15. 42 Shield might seem like a crutch when it comes to the stun but they need the shield spec as well to even have a chance in melee. If scouts got the buffs in archery, less than 42 shield could be acceptable.

2. If a stealther is caught out of stealth, that should be death with a caster. And you say you've never died to archers shooting you in ANY situation. Even when they are adding on? I find this hard to believe. If you mean to say one or two archers catching you out of stealth haven't killed you before, well that's easily explained. You have a speed burst and then stealth. Just outrange or LoS and stealth away. If a stealth class is caught out of stealth it should be a disadvantage. I've said this before and I'm sure you've read it, archers can keep their damage in a solo situation, but when adding or when in a group it should be decreased.

1. I agree completely, but as you can see you've also given up any real melee ability. The recommended spec would be 10+ Blades and 18+ CD though, to chain the side stun + side snare to kite.

2. I'm not referring to adding Archers. I'm talking about getting hit shot in open field by one or two Archers vs one or two Casters. An adding (insert any class here) is going to be death in a close fight. Even a Cleric adding and smiting can change a close fight.

If Archers have to give up damage when damaging the same target then so should everyone else. I'm not interested in punishing one class over another, I'm interested in balance.

My class when facing Archers does not matter here. I play Merc and Ranger (though not Ranger currently) so I'm talking in general terms when it comes to facing Archers.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 11:33 AM by Saroi
Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 10:12 AM
Always the same 10 players whining about shield snare... Come on, moove on. Scout needs it, stop this hypocrisy. Dual wield is moded here, less chance to block, NF Ra so purge couldown way shorter, two health pots, armor resistance nerf, MOS... Most little thing is a gap killer for scout to make him viable like others archery class.

Scout in classic was supposed to have the biggest range and biggest damage. All three archers get the same Dex=WS value, same range. No scout is complaining about it. And rangers are insane since the new archery change and it's been months the rvr is broken cause of it. Others can have their moments too no ?

Yes, Dual wield is moded here but not like you think. It used to cut block chance and evade by 50%, now it is 25%. So you as a scout have a higher block and evade chance. Nerf for DW classes, buff for scouts.

Scout had the biggest damage till rangers got the 5.5 bow too, that was way before patch 1.65. Scouts also had buffbots back then making the selfbuffs more or less useless (stats wise). So under normal circumstances without buffbots rangers did more damage. This could also be seen back then on the servers they made without ToA and buffbots. Rangers had the strongest bow damage.

As for range, the range is not the same. Scouts do have a higher range here. It is 2200 for scouts and 2100 for rangers. I think hunters have 2100 too, not exactly sure here because I do not have a hunter and only did the test with my scout and ranger.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:19 PM by Lokkjim
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 11:03 AM
1. I agree completely, but as you can see you've also given up any real melee ability. The recommended spec would be 10+ Blades and 18+ CD though, to chain the side stun + side snare to kite.

2. I'm not referring to adding Archers. I'm talking about getting hit shot in open field by one or two Archers vs one or two Casters. An adding (insert any class here) is going to be death in a close fight. Even a Cleric adding and smiting can change a close fight.

If Archers have to give up damage when damaging the same target then so should everyone else. I'm not interested in punishing one class over another, I'm interested in balance.

My class when facing Archers does not matter here. I play Merc and Ranger (though not Ranger currently) so I'm talking in general terms when it comes to facing Archers.

1. If you have melee ability, what's the point of your snare argument? Are you really going to try to snare someone to get back to shooting? If so, why do you need more melee ability? For the fights, you can't snare away from? That would come down to personal choice for your spec, do you want to be a hybrid/archer/melee? Can't be everything. Scouts don't even get that option, melee scouts aren't a thing as even a fully melee specced scout has abysmal damage compared to hunter or ranger.

2. Visible classes don't always get to choose their fights unless they are a speed class. Even a speed class can be surprised by an enemy or a stealth class. Stealth classes have a huge advantage in that department and can pick most of their fights unless it's another stealther. Two archers doing 400 damage normal shots can melt almost any class in seconds with very little risk as they are at a huge range and have that damage and can then stealth. I just think there should be more risk involved as it seems to suggest that grouping (everyone complains about stealth groups) is the way the class should be played as it would eliminate almost all the risk.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:53 PM by Cadebrennus
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:19 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 11:03 AM
1. I agree completely, but as you can see you've also given up any real melee ability. The recommended spec would be 10+ Blades and 18+ CD though, to chain the side stun + side snare to kite.

2. I'm not referring to adding Archers. I'm talking about getting hit shot in open field by one or two Archers vs one or two Casters. An adding (insert any class here) is going to be death in a close fight. Even a Cleric adding and smiting can change a close fight.

If Archers have to give up damage when damaging the same target then so should everyone else. I'm not interested in punishing one class over another, I'm interested in balance.

My class when facing Archers does not matter here. I play Merc and Ranger (though not Ranger currently) so I'm talking in general terms when it comes to facing Archers.

1. If you have melee ability, what's the point of your snare argument? Are you really going to try to snare someone to get back to shooting? If so, why do you need more melee ability? For the fights, you can't snare away from? That would come down to personal choice for your spec, do you want to be a hybrid/archer/melee? Can't be everything. Scouts don't even get that option, melee scouts aren't a thing as even a fully melee specced scout has abysmal damage compared to hunter or ranger.

2. Visible classes don't always get to choose their fights unless they are a speed class. Even a speed class can be surprised by an enemy or a stealth class. Stealth classes have a huge advantage in that department and can pick most of their fights unless it's another stealther. Two archers doing 400 damage normal shots can melt almost any class in seconds with very little risk as they are at a huge range and have that damage and can then stealth. I just think there should be more risk involved as it seems to suggest that grouping (everyone complains about stealth groups) is the way the class should be played as it would eliminate almost all the risk.

PF can help but a class that has Shield and no DW/2H/Spear/Polearm will never put out the damage of those other lines. However they do have the highest Shield block % in game and that is significant. They just have to keep the enemy in their front arc. See the aforementioned comments regarding the nerf to dual wielding. Assuming that someone has 30ish DW/CD/LA (using old calc since I don't have the new numbers, feel free to add in the custom Phoenix bonus to DW/CD/LA)

Offhand adds about 60 damage per swing. Add in a LT for 95.

LT procs 15% of the time. That's a total of 14.25 damage per swing over time.

At 30ish CD/DW/LA you're getting around %60 added swings or damage. That 60 damage + 14 average LT at a 60% rate is an additional 44 damage per swing on top of your MH damage.

Standard anytime is about .48-.49 GR. If my total anytime hits for 110 with a LT proccing 15% of the time I get an average of 124 per MH swing + 44 OH swing (counting LT procs). That's 168 per swing, averaged over time.

Now let's look at Shield:

Current meta is 45 Shield. That's around a 55% chance to block normally. With the DW block penalty that's reduced to 41%.

Now, what does this do to the dual wielder's damage? Vs the average anytime style noted above over time, the Scout mitigates 68 damage, taking an average of 99 damage per swing. Now, keep in mind that he is also swinging at 110 MH but the other opponent has no shield, so thus cannot block him. This is all not taking into account evades, envenom, debuffs, etc.



Now Visi classes don't always get to choose their fights that's true but most players play like morons and run in the middle of roads, don't use cover, etc. With a few decades of FPS games available it boggles the mind that MMORPG players don't play with the same tactics as FPS players. Use cover and concealment, use strategy, etc.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:54 PM by gotwqqd
When people talk about scouts having previously had higher bow damage due to slower bow.
Isn’t this statement not entirely true?
Dps is the same, except for the added damage on first shot isn’t it all going to balance?
And ranger pf will always make their damage better.

Or am I missing something with the mechanics?
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:00 PM by Symptomettes
Saroi wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 11:33 AM
Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 10:12 AM
Always the same 10 players whining about shield snare... Come on, moove on. Scout needs it, stop this hypocrisy. Dual wield is moded here, less chance to block, NF Ra so purge couldown way shorter, two health pots, armor resistance nerf, MOS... Most little thing is a gap killer for scout to make him viable like others archery class.

Scout in classic was supposed to have the biggest range and biggest damage. All three archers get the same Dex=WS value, same range. No scout is complaining about it. And rangers are insane since the new archery change and it's been months the rvr is broken cause of it. Others can have their moments too no ?

Yes, Dual wield is moded here but not like you think. It used to cut block chance and evade by 50%, now it is 25%. So you as a scout have a higher block and evade chance. Nerf for DW classes, buff for scouts.

Scout had the biggest damage till rangers got the 5.5 bow too, that was way before patch 1.65. Scouts also had buffbots back then making the selfbuffs more or less useless (stats wise). So under normal circumstances without buffbots rangers did more damage. This could also be seen back then on the servers they made without ToA and buffbots. Rangers had the strongest bow damage.

As for range, the range is not the same. Scouts do have a higher range here. It is 2200 for scouts and 2100 for rangers. I think hunters have 2100 too, not exactly sure here because I do not have a hunter and only did the test with my scout and ranger.

In fact : Dual wield hitchance was increase by 50% and after that nerf to 25%... So it doesn't make it a nerf at all. Dual still get a 25% bonus, that's litteraly not the same thing.

If you talk about buffbot you could say the same for rangers and hunters being BBed. So no points in discussing that... Now every sins/archers got the same potbuffs except that rangers/hunters have access to MOA/Selfbuff when scouts don't. Sins with the NF ra's make them pretty much balance between them when it's not for archers and that's why GM are working on it. If you want to talk about live, see how things are for archers now. This server is based on classic cause you got no ML/CL/offcap, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't balance archer stats. A scout with Dex 5 have like 310/320 dex... It's nowhere near a ranger / hunter got with selfbuff and the same ra's. We need balance, not a huge gap between miror class (when i say miror i'm talking about archery, not weapons they can use).

I never heard of scout having more range than hunters and rangers, i woul love to have this fact confirmed by a GM. (There was on live classic, but not sure it is here since all the archery re-works)
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:13 PM by Symptomettes
Cadebrennus : Even with high dex / Mob 5 at least you will not approach this number of your : 40%... And mob 5 is giving a flat 12% bonus.

Where is the enemy WS in your math for the blockrate calculation. Everything is wrong, u just throw random numbers without a basic understanding of how blockrate works.

My scout is 45 shield + 18 with Mob 5 and vs a dual wielder 40% blockrate is not a number i see often, it is when someone is playing 10 in melee lines and dual / or lower level / one hand / two hand. But zerkers/BM/sins are more close to 30% blockrate.

So having 45 shield doesn't mean having 55% blockrate vs someone that doesn't get dual wield bonus... 100% wrong.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:19 PM by Lokkjim
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:53 PM
PF can help but a class that has Shield and no DW/2H/Spear/Polearm will never put out the damage of those other lines. However they do have the highest Shield block % in game and that is significant. They just have to keep the enemy in their front arc. See the aforementioned comments regarding the nerf to dual wielding. Assuming that someone has 30ish DW/CD/LA (using old calc since I don't have the new numbers, feel free to add in the custom Phoenix bonus to DW/CD/LA)

Offhand adds about 60 damage per swing. Add in a LT for 95.

LT procs 15% of the time. That's a total of 14.25 damage per swing over time.

At 30ish CD/DW/LA you're getting around %60 added swings or damage. That 60 damage + 14 average LT at a 60% rate is an additional 44 damage per swing on top of your MH damage.

Standard anytime is about .48-.49 GR. If my total anytime hits for 110 with a LT proccing 15% of the time I get an average of 124 per MH swing + 44 OH swing (counting LT procs). That's 168 per swing, averaged over time.

Now let's look at Shield:

Current meta is 45 Shield. That's around a 55% chance to block normally. With the DW block penalty that's reduced to 41%.

Now, what does this do to the dual wielder's damage? Vs the average anytime style noted above over time, the Scout mitigates 68 damage, taking an average of 99 damage per swing. Now, keep in mind that he is also swinging at 110 MH but the other opponent has no shield, so thus cannot block him. This is all not taking into account evades, envenom, debuffs, etc.



Now Visi classes don't always get to choose their fights that's true but most players play like morons and run in the middle of roads, don't use cover, etc. With a few decades of FPS games available it boggles the mind that MMORPG players don't play with the same tactics as FPS players. Use cover and concealment, use strategy, etc.

You're basing this off of a melee spec scout right? Who would play that? They would only have a chance against very few classes, compared to the archer spec. And if we're gonna make them a melee scout, why not make the ranger a melee spec? Even if you are saying that both characters would have 30ish CD/DW/LA, the scout would still take a ridiculous amount of time to kill someone. With that amount of time, there's a good chance that someone will come and the scout will die. The ranger has a better chance of actually killing something than a scout in this situation. Where's the balance in that? Just because a scout can survive doesn't mean a thing if they can't kill someone before someone adds in.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:24 PM by Symptomettes
This topic is now a yell to nerf scout from haters.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:58 PM by Freedomcall
Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:00 PM
I never heard of scout having more range than hunters and rangers, i woul love to have this fact confirmed by a GM. (There was on live classic, but not sure it is here since all the archery re-works)

You don't need GMs for that.
Just create a scout and test on dummies.
It's simple.
Scout has the highest range with 2200ish, followed up by rangers 2100ish and hunters 2000ish.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:09 PM by Symptomettes
If balance is done for buffs it should be the same for range too. 2k1 for everyone should be fine.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:13 PM by Freedomcall
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:53 PM
Now let's look at Shield:

Current meta is 45 Shield. That's around a 55% chance to block normally. With the DW block penalty that's reduced to 41%.


Where did this math come from? This is a totally wrong math.
I have a melee scout and it never blocks 55% to 1h/2h nor 41% to duel wielders.
Have you really played scout?
Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:17 PM by gromet12
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:13 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:53 PM
Now let's look at Shield:

Current meta is 45 Shield. That's around a 55% chance to block normally. With the DW block penalty that's reduced to 41%.


Where did this math come from? This is a totally wrong math.
I have a melee scout and it never blocks 55% to 1h/2h nor 41% to duel wielders.
Have you really played scout?

I wish my 50 shield warrior could hit those numbers lol

I barely break into the 30% vs a DW, not of the time it's in the 20’s
Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:53 PM by Symptomettes
Throwing random numbers is a thing on forum
Sat 22 Aug 2020 3:19 PM by Layuth
While you are making Archery "fixes". How about you spend some time and fix the names of the footed flight arrows in the Fletching list. Do us a real favor.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 4:13 PM by Cadebrennus
gromet12 wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:17 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:13 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:53 PM
Now let's look at Shield:

Current meta is 45 Shield. That's around a 55% chance to block normally. With the DW block penalty that's reduced to 41%.


Where did this math come from? This is a totally wrong math.
I have a melee scout and it never blocks 55% to 1h/2h nor 41% to duel wielders.
Have you really played scout?

I wish my 50 shield warrior could hit those numbers lol

I barely break into the 30% vs a DW, not of the time it's in the 20’s

Your 50 Shield Warrior doesn't have Saracen Scout dexterity.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 4:14 PM by Fiatil
Can anyone explain to me how Celtic Dual, on this server, is even close to as useful as a 9 second stun and an infinitely reusable root?

I would trade celtic dual for JUST the 9 second stun. Add in the root and it's insane! The only thing keeping scouts from being the alpha archer class in every single aspect right now, is that rangers have slightly more ranged damage. You're going to take away the ranged damage benefit, and leave them with their ridiculous crowd control and kiting abilities. I would kill to have slightly less bow damage as a ranger in exchange for a 9 second anytime stun. You're forcing every ranger to become a gimpy melee hybrid as their "niche" by making celtic dual be the only defining characteristic of the class. I shouldn't have to switch realms to be a solo archer -- hunters get their pet for lots of fun interrupts and extra DPS, scouts get tons of crowd control, rangers get....gimpy melee DPS once they're interrupted or in melee range.

Please just nerf volley. Rangers are overpopulated now because of how overpowered volley is. People want the slight increase in damage because they can use it to spam volley over and over again. In every other situation, the scout is a better and more flexible archery class.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 4:19 PM by Spewy
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Aug 2020 9:09 PM
The goal of these changes is to reduce the ranger population and while at it also to reduce the general effect of archers in siege fights:

A problematic ability in siege fights is volley, these are potential changes:
1) Longer cooldown, about 3 minutes
2) Damage set to a flat value not scaling with other archery stuff

As for changes to archery, a pretty big problem here is that all 3 archers are pretty much the same with just the hunter and ranger potentially having better self buffs, for the hunter this is somewhat offset by not having access to the slowest bows.
Anyways, due to those self buffs it'll always be the case that a ranger has a higher dex ceiling than a scout leading therefore to a higher average damage at the same archery spec. While ofc this dex advantage is pretty much only given for the bow only spec, it basically makes the ranger the best character for someone who wants to play that playstyle because even if a scout wanted to do it it would be less effective.

There are basically 2 solutions:
1) Do a ranger only nerf wrt archery damage
2) Give scout access to the self buffs and reduce archery damage in general so that a then fully self buffed scout does the same damage as a currently potion buffed scout

Solution 2 basically means:
Fold pathfinding self buffs into archery making it available to all 3 realms, remove pathfinding, remove hunter self buffs from beast mastery. The removal of pathfinding would mean reducing the skill points gained for rangers to not just give them a massive melee buff but to keep the essence / downsides of the current 50 48 bow only spec.

SOLUTION 2 - do you know that there is Melee Ranger who play? even if the Ranger population is 80% BOW, there is player who need pathfinding.
BOW needs to be nerfed that it, SCOUT dmg is insane, Hunter are hybrid who are doing great, only full bow Ranger is an issue.

Solution 2 is crazy, meaning changing everything.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 4:42 PM by Symptomettes
Scout dmg is insane. You made my day... Ranger deal 15/20% more damage than a scout that has 50 bow. And it's nowhere near INSANE. Cap your resist and put your AF on if you think Bow damage is a problem for scout.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 4:53 PM by gromet12
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 4:13 PM
gromet12 wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:17 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:13 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:53 PM
Now let's look at Shield:

Current meta is 45 Shield. That's around a 55% chance to block normally. With the DW block penalty that's reduced to 41%.


Where did this math come from? This is a totally wrong math.
I have a melee scout and it never blocks 55% to 1h/2h nor 41% to duel wielders.
Have you really played scout?

I wish my 50 shield warrior could hit those numbers lol

I barely break into the 30% vs a DW, not of the time it's in the 20’s

Your 50 Shield Warrior doesn't have Saracen Scout dexterity.

And lets just say it's 100 dex difference (which it isn't as not many Scouts run around with 355dex) that is only a difference of 5%.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 5:18 PM by Fiatil
I struggle to understand how this makes sense.

In the new system (option 1), a ranger will need to spend 50 archery and 48 pathfinding to get the SAME archery damage as a scout who spends 50 points in archery. The two classes have the same amount of spec points per level. One of them has to spend twice as many points to get the same damage as the other.

A ranger with 50 archery and 48 pathfinding will be garbage in melee. They have no room to spec celtic dual. So their "unique class feature" does not exist if they want to have the most archery damage. Their unique class feature becomes an escape spell, and only an escape spell.

A scout with 50 archery now does as much damage as a ranger with 50 archery and 48 pathfinding. They obviously have a ton more skillpoints to spend, so they're going to dump the 48 points in shield with maybe a bit in their weapon line. So using the same amount of spec points, the ranger gets:

1) Bow damage equal to a scout
2) 100 less range than a scout
3) an escape spell they can use every 10 minutes.
4) terrible melee damage

The scout gets

1)Bow damage equal to a ranger.
2) 100 more range than a ranger
3) 9 second any time stun
4) infinitely reusable root/snare to kite endlessly
5) a shield with a very very high block rate
6) engage to completely nullify the ranger's ranged damage in a one on one
7) terrible melee damage

Soooo what am I missing here? How are rangers under option 1 even a remotely viable archery class relative to scouts? Yes, they can sacrifice their bow spec, and do much less bow damage in exchange for better melee DPS than scouts. Great. But in the apples to apples "hey I want to do archery damage with my archer character" comparison, they are worse than scouts in every possible way.

Option 2 is even more problematic and kills melee rangers entirely, as well as anything other than a full bow specced hunter.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 5:19 PM by Symptomettes
Even with dex 9, scout can't have 355 dex

"Ranger have slightly more damage than scout" : Do you even know what you are talking about ?

Most crit shot are 650/750 for a scout (more = no spec af on / no resist cap / lower level / leather), when it's 900+ for rangers full sniper. And i don't even count relics / add damage in it... And even those numbers are for high rr (so high aug dex).

Fiatil wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 5:18 PM
I struggle to understand how this makes sense.

In the new system (option 1), a ranger will need to spend 50 archery and 48 pathfinding to get the SAME archery damage as a scout who spends 50 points in archery. The two classes have the same amount of spec points per level. One of them has to spend twice as many points to get the same damage as the other.

A ranger with 50 archery and 48 pathfinding will be garbage in melee. They have no room to spec celtic dual. So their "unique class feature" does not exist if they want to have the most archery damage. Their unique class feature becomes an escape spell, and only an escape spell.

A scout with 50 archery now does as much damage as a ranger with 50 archery and 48 pathfinding. They obviously have a ton more skillpoints to spend, so they're going to dump the 48 points in shield with maybe a bit in their weapon line. So using the same amount of spec points, the ranger gets:

1) Bow damage equal to a scout
2) 100 less range than a scout
3) an escape spell they can use every 15 minutes.
4) terrible melee damage

The scout gets

1)Bow damage equal to a ranger.
2) 100 more range than a ranger
3) 9 second any time stun
4) infinitely reusable root/snare to kite endlessly
5) a shield with a very very high block rate
6) engage to completely nullify the ranger's ranged damage in a one on one
7) terrible melee damage

Soooo what am I missing here? How are rangers under option 1 even a remotely viable archery class relative to scouts? Yes, they can sacrifice their bow spec, and do much less bow damage in exchange for better melee DPS than scouts. Great. But in the apples to apples "hey I want to do archery damage with my archer character" comparison, they are worse than scouts in every possible way.

Clearly you don't know what you are talking about.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 5:22 PM by Fiatil
No, you're counting crit damage after the three strength relics and the damage adds. Hibernia has had the relics for a long time, and your numbers are after the strength bonus. You can't do class balance assuming that hibernia is going to have strength relics forever -- that is insane.

I welcome you to address any of the points I made in that post, by the way, instead of saying I don't know what I'm talking about. That post is AFTER the proposed changes. If they make scout damage equal to ranger damage by just nerfing ranger damage, you wind up with exactly the situation I just described.
Sat 22 Aug 2020 10:38 PM by Lokkjim
Fiatil wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 5:22 PM
No, you're counting crit damage after the three strength relics and the damage adds. Hibernia has had the relics for a long time, and your numbers are after the strength bonus. You can't do class balance assuming that hibernia is going to have strength relics forever -- that is insane.

I welcome you to address any of the points I made in that post, by the way, instead of saying I don't know what I'm talking about. That post is AFTER the proposed changes. If they make scout damage equal to ranger damage by just nerfing ranger damage, you wind up with exactly the situation I just described.

Quick two-cents post here because I just woke up.

Rangers can go full melee and be viable and hunters can be hybrid and be viable. Currently, both those classes can go full archery and be viable. Scout can never be a hybrid or a melee build unless they never want to kill anything. Sure they can survive, but they won't do enough damage before someone adds in unless they are fighting in the middle of nowhere. Scout should have archery advantage imo.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:19 AM by Cadebrennus
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 10:38 PM
Fiatil wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 5:22 PM
No, you're counting crit damage after the three strength relics and the damage adds. Hibernia has had the relics for a long time, and your numbers are after the strength bonus. You can't do class balance assuming that hibernia is going to have strength relics forever -- that is insane.

I welcome you to address any of the points I made in that post, by the way, instead of saying I don't know what I'm talking about. That post is AFTER the proposed changes. If they make scout damage equal to ranger damage by just nerfing ranger damage, you wind up with exactly the situation I just described.

Quick two-cents post here because I just woke up.

Rangers can go full melee and be viable and hunters can be hybrid and be viable. Currently, both those classes can go full archery and be viable. Scout can never be a hybrid or a melee build unless they never want to kill anything. Sure they can survive, but they won't do enough damage before someone adds in unless they are fighting in the middle of nowhere. Scout should have archery advantage imo.

Giving Scouts PF with no additional spec points will give them Archery advantage.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:44 AM by Lokkjim
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:19 AM
Giving Scouts PF with no additional spec points will give them Archery advantage.

It probably would, but hunters and Mid as a whole would probably complain about balance if hunters don't get PF as well.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 7:02 AM by Cadebrennus
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:44 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:19 AM
Giving Scouts PF with no additional spec points will give them Archery advantage.

It probably would, but hunters and Mid as a whole would probably complain about balance if hunters don't get PF as well.

Hunters already have a self buff line that also gives them a pet.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:11 AM by Lokkjim
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 7:02 AM
Hunters already have a self buff line that also gives them a pet.

While I agree with you, it's already been brought up by another hunter before, can't remember the name. A hunter has to spec 50 into Beastcraft to get the red dex/qui buff and they have a 5.0 bow and the smallest range of the three archers. I don't play a hunter but I think the way the pet is balanced, is to make up for the 5.0 bow and the range. This probably brings them more in line with scouts and ranger damage.

IIRC, you wanted to keep damage the same and just give scouts PF. That would bring the scout and the ranger in line with each other while leaving the hunter by themselves. Granted, I haven't noticed many complaints from hunters about the damage difference between themselves and other archers, but giving scouts something only a ranger has currently could lead to more complaints.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:30 AM by Cadebrennus
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:11 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 7:02 AM
Hunters already have a self buff line that also gives them a pet.

While I agree with you, it's already been brought up by another hunter before, can't remember the name. A hunter has to spec 50 into Beastcraft to get the red dex/qui buff and they have a 5.0 bow and the smallest range of the three archers. I don't play a hunter but I think the way the pet is balanced, is to make up for the 5.0 bow and the range. This probably brings them more in line with scouts and ranger damage.

IIRC, you wanted to keep damage the same and just give scouts PF. That would bring the scout and the ranger in line with each other while leaving the hunter by themselves. Granted, I haven't noticed many complaints from hunters about the damage difference between themselves and other archers, but giving scouts something only a ranger has currently could lead to more complaints.

Rangers have to spec 48 PF for that buff so it's not far off.

Hunters do lack in the initial punch of that Critshot due to their faster bow speed, but all of their follow-up shots are doing the exact same damage per second as Scouts and Rangers. On Live they gave Hunters the same bows/bow speed/range and it quickly became evident that Hunters became OP overnight due to having the same bows/bow speed/range AND a pet to control/interrupt. I'm aware that the dog on Live is better than the one on Phoenix, but the same effect will occur here. The main thing that keeps the players from realising the strengths of the Hunters are players who either are a) bad, or b) just don't want to bother with pet management.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:59 AM by Tashkent
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:30 AM
On Live they gave Hunters the same bows/bow speed/range and it quickly became evident that Hunters became OP overnight due to having the same bows/bow speed/range AND a pet to control/interrupt. I'm aware that the dog on Live is better than the one on Phoenix, but the same effect will occur here.

Are you talking about the pet changes that brought higher level pets with snare, disease, pincer, frenzy?
Sun 23 Aug 2020 10:22 AM by Cadebrennus
Tashkent wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:59 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:30 AM
On Live they gave Hunters the same bows/bow speed/range and it quickly became evident that Hunters became OP overnight due to having the same bows/bow speed/range AND a pet to control/interrupt. I'm aware that the dog on Live is better than the one on Phoenix, but the same effect will occur here.

Are you talking about the pet changes that brought higher level pets with snare, disease, pincer, frenzy?

Yes, all of that insanity. Without it though the pet is still very good for extra DPS and interrupts.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 11:26 AM by Forlornhope
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:11 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 7:02 AM
Hunters already have a self buff line that also gives them a pet.

While I agree with you, it's already been brought up by another hunter before, can't remember the name. A hunter has to spec 50 into Beastcraft to get the red dex/qui buff and they have a 5.0 bow and the smallest range of the three archers. I don't play a hunter but I think the way the pet is balanced, is to make up for the 5.0 bow and the range. This probably brings them more in line with scouts and ranger damage.

IIRC, you wanted to keep damage the same and just give scouts PF. That would bring the scout and the ranger in line with each other while leaving the hunter by themselves. Granted, I haven't noticed many complaints from hunters about the damage difference between themselves and other archers, but giving scouts something only a ranger has currently could lead to more complaints.

All I currently play at the moment really is my melee hunter, with an occasional splashing here and there of my cleric. But I'd definitely have to agree with you, I think hunters right now are totally fine balance wise, but I am generally solo and haven't grouped on it except for the luls when I ran in a trio with Catkain and one of his friends. The hunter's probably the most balanced one of the archers right now, even though I think a lot of the issue with rangers was just them having three strength relics and grouping a lot. And nothing is really going to stop them from grouping other than literally coding it to where certain classes can't. Personally I am concerned more if they were to switch all self buffs into the archery line, simply because I think it would nerf my play style for basically no reason. Making me either drop my stealth down too low for going after infs/shades at docs, or making me lower my beatcraft to a lower level pet taking away the dps given from it to offset things like having crappier bow speed/range/damage.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 12:00 PM by gromet12
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:30 AM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:11 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 7:02 AM
Hunters already have a self buff line that also gives them a pet.

While I agree with you, it's already been brought up by another hunter before, can't remember the name. A hunter has to spec 50 into Beastcraft to get the red dex/qui buff and they have a 5.0 bow and the smallest range of the three archers. I don't play a hunter but I think the way the pet is balanced, is to make up for the 5.0 bow and the range. This probably brings them more in line with scouts and ranger damage.

IIRC, you wanted to keep damage the same and just give scouts PF. That would bring the scout and the ranger in line with each other while leaving the hunter by themselves. Granted, I haven't noticed many complaints from hunters about the damage difference between themselves and other archers, but giving scouts something only a ranger has currently could lead to more complaints.

Rangers have to spec 48 PF for that buff so it's not far off.

Hunters do lack in the initial punch of that Critshot due to their faster bow speed, but all of their follow-up shots are doing the exact same damage per second as Scouts and Rangers. On Live they gave Hunters the same bows/bow speed/range and it quickly became evident that Hunters became OP overnight due to having the same bows/bow speed/range AND a pet to control/interrupt. I'm aware that the dog on Live is better than the one on Phoenix, but the same effect will occur here. The main thing that keeps the players from realising the strengths of the Hunters are players who either are a) bad, or b) just don't want to bother with pet management.

On live they never gave hunters the same bow, hunters got a 5.3 (which was quickly taken away) and was 99%....

You are also misleading on the DPS ever catching up, sure over a 100 shots it will eventually catch up. In a normal fight, no it doesn't catch up. When you add RF into the mix it doesn't catch up either. Being that quickness and moa does not lower the base dmg of the bow. The formula favors the slowest weapons possible, which also do the most dmg possible both in critical, regular, and RF shots even with the dmg reduction
Sun 23 Aug 2020 12:00 PM by Stoertebecker
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:30 AM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:11 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 7:02 AM
Hunters already have a self buff line that also gives them a pet.

While I agree with you, it's already been brought up by another hunter before, can't remember the name. A hunter has to spec 50 into Beastcraft to get the red dex/qui buff and they have a 5.0 bow and the smallest range of the three archers. I don't play a hunter but I think the way the pet is balanced, is to make up for the 5.0 bow and the range. This probably brings them more in line with scouts and ranger damage.

IIRC, you wanted to keep damage the same and just give scouts PF. That would bring the scout and the ranger in line with each other while leaving the hunter by themselves. Granted, I haven't noticed many complaints from hunters about the damage difference between themselves and other archers, but giving scouts something only a ranger has currently could lead to more complaints.

On Live they gave Hunters the same bows/bow speed/range and it quickly became evident that Hunters became OP overnight due to having the same bows/bow speed/range AND a pet to control/interrupt.

The Hunter got his OP factor from his Pet only, because missing immunity timers on the pet snare and the pets speed 6. The Pet was the match winner, not the Hunter
Sun 23 Aug 2020 12:02 PM by gromet12
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:44 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:19 AM
Giving Scouts PF with no additional spec points will give them Archery advantage.

It probably would, but hunters and Mid as a whole would probably complain about balance if hunters don't get PF as well.

Yep...

Being that PF also includes Str and D/A which the Hunter would benefit from.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 2:45 PM by Cadebrennus
gromet12 wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 12:02 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:44 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:19 AM
Giving Scouts PF with no additional spec points will give them Archery advantage.

It probably would, but hunters and Mid as a whole would probably complain about balance if hunters don't get PF as well.

Yep...

Being that PF also includes Str and D/A which the Hunter would benefit from.

The Ranger and Scout could benefit from a pet. What's your point?
Sun 23 Aug 2020 2:48 PM by Cadebrennus
gromet12 wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 12:00 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:30 AM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:11 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 7:02 AM
Hunters already have a self buff line that also gives them a pet.

While I agree with you, it's already been brought up by another hunter before, can't remember the name. A hunter has to spec 50 into Beastcraft to get the red dex/qui buff and they have a 5.0 bow and the smallest range of the three archers. I don't play a hunter but I think the way the pet is balanced, is to make up for the 5.0 bow and the range. This probably brings them more in line with scouts and ranger damage.

IIRC, you wanted to keep damage the same and just give scouts PF. That would bring the scout and the ranger in line with each other while leaving the hunter by themselves. Granted, I haven't noticed many complaints from hunters about the damage difference between themselves and other archers, but giving scouts something only a ranger has currently could lead to more complaints.

Rangers have to spec 48 PF for that buff so it's not far off.

Hunters do lack in the initial punch of that Critshot due to their faster bow speed, but all of their follow-up shots are doing the exact same damage per second as Scouts and Rangers. On Live they gave Hunters the same bows/bow speed/range and it quickly became evident that Hunters became OP overnight due to having the same bows/bow speed/range AND a pet to control/interrupt. I'm aware that the dog on Live is better than the one on Phoenix, but the same effect will occur here. The main thing that keeps the players from realising the strengths of the Hunters are players who either are a) bad, or b) just don't want to bother with pet management.

On live they never gave hunters the same bow, hunters got a 5.3 (which was quickly taken away) and was 99%....

You are also misleading on the DPS ever catching up, sure over a 100 shots it will eventually catch up. In a normal fight, no it doesn't catch up. When you add RF into the mix it doesn't catch up either. Being that quickness and moa does not lower the base dmg of the bow. The formula favors the slowest weapons possible, which also do the most dmg possible both in critical, regular, and RF shots even with the dmg reduction

When Archery changed to magic all Archers got the same speed of Archery "spells".

It doesn't take 100 shots for a Hunter's damage to catch up to Scout/Ranger. If all three classes are firing at cap speed they'll all do the same damage if Dex buffed equally.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 4:06 PM by Symptomettes
Fiatil wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 5:22 PM
No, you're counting crit damage after the three strength relics and the damage adds. Hibernia has had the relics for a long time, and your numbers are after the strength bonus. You can't do class balance assuming that hibernia is going to have strength relics forever -- that is insane.

I welcome you to address any of the points I made in that post, by the way, instead of saying I don't know what I'm talking about. That post is AFTER the proposed changes. If they make scout damage equal to ranger damage by just nerfing ranger damage, you wind up with exactly the situation I just described.

Some screen shot were shown on discord with 1k+ damage. 10% from that still make 900+. Simple math.

You really want me to tell you where you wrong in your topic ?! For sure :

1) Bow damage equal to a scout (a class that can only deal real damage with bow getting less damage than someone that can have hybrid / melee / sniper spec is totaly legit maybe ? Hypocrit).
2) 100 less range than a scout (If they balance archery class they will probably do the same for the range, and even if they don't 100 is not a gap killer, it's not even 5%).
3) an escape spell they can use every 15 minutes (GM will never give that to scout with those changes so it's better than nothing...).
4) terrible melee damage (Cause scout isn't worst maybe ? You got shield blablabla, you got moded dual wield). Try to fight something with a 1H+shield as a scout with your 1k5 WS with full melee spec. The only thing you would be able to kill is a druid or a nuker if purge up... Whao ! So much possibilities. Hypocrisy².

Everything you said is just lack of understanding and you are just trying to make ranger a victim when it's not needed. Gm won't listen to this crap now.. And balancing the three archery class like they want to do is a priority for the health of the server. You never assume ranger was wrong or TOO OP the last past months ? Do you think it's normal that a single group of stealther can change all the rvr zerg keep mechanics without any chances to defend keep/tower anymore ? Just look how much time you got relics / rvr dominance during that time only because of how dumb volley and rangers are (sniper spec). You don't have a clue of what it is to be in Mid/Alb atm.

With the PF change you would be able to spec 50 bow and get the same PF buffs from it... Just read entirely what gm said. So even if they nerf the 2xlevel spec point you will probably still gain more than the actual sniper spec. So that means you could still be able to play full snip spec. When you are saying terrible melee damage it makes me laught cause atm ranger is the OP toon in melee/snipe from the three archers, with strong hybrid melee/range (not as powerfull than hunters but still very decent). Scout doesn't have those choice, so stop your bullshit dude about scout being better in everything with those changes, scout DOESNT HAVE A CHOICE !! It's a full archery toon, trying to melee = being sucidal or SM. And you forgot something really important : scout need to train more passiv RA to get less speed attack than a ranger cause of that. You need 20 ra spec point in aug quick to get what a ranger has. 20 RA POINTS do you know how dumb it is to spend this amount of points just to get the same thing from a selfbuff (and only for quickness...) ? And don't even tell me it's nothing cause it's a huge gap killer between two miror classes.

And if people wants to play melee ranger they still can do this change and up the CD/PIERC/BLADES Damage table for them. Oh, so easy to compensate.... Sure you will have less buffs, but it's not like Melee ranger are spending 40+ in PF when they are playing this spec. So again it's a win/win.

The hypocrisy in your post is fine, i understand the fact that you don't want to be nerf... But dude, scout is not that OP. For sure you can kite but it can be counter easily and the very high blockrate is a joke. If for you 1/3 of hit being blocked is HIGH BLOCKRATE, it isn't (and it's RNG). And for this number you need mob 5 at least. Again some ra points spend instead of aug dex 9 or activ RA. A decent scout get pretty much what it need to get balance around 8L, before you are being rape from every sins once you don't have purge / IP up when disease/envenom snare... SB got knives / NS got DD. So if you try to kite them with one of this envenom(or both) you won't be able to do them any damage during the 14sec snare.

Infinitely reusable root/snare to kite endlessly ? Only for savage / berseker. That's the only two class a scout can kill without any problems at ALL and even with that if RNG is vs you, you still can be killed. Daoc paper is crap for that case cause everytoon get something to be done during that time. You can't infinite kite like you said vs every others toon. It's not like you can spam shield snare + kite + deal damage without any rest or taking pots or using RA. People know they need to rupt you once you kite snare, don't even mention the 2k2 range cause people will always run away if you take too much range from them at this moment. Your logic is from someone that don't play scout and if gm gave that it's because it was needed.

I rest my case, take it or throw it idc. I will not answer you anymore cause your logic is from someone that just want to keep things like it is when everything is wrong in it.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 5:35 PM by Sabatasso79
First of all, if Symptomettes is right and archer damage is equal between hunters, rangers and scouts, then someone has already messed up in the past. So begin fix issues there instead of giving everyone what makes rangers different. Take a long, hard look at how we ended up here, and you'll find that previous 'fixes' suggested by people who weren't thinking of the broader perspective of their 'fixes' and got accepted (somehow) is the reason why Rangers are (if they are) too strong at the moment.

You also have to consider more than the individual class, because DAOC is first and foremost a Realm vs Realm game, not a solo simulator. I do think Scouts should have the strongest archery in the game, if they haven't then that's a massive and stupid mistake by whoever made the change, no offense. Secondly, Albion have three stealther classes, which makes their potential stealth groups very strong. It doesn't matter if they don't utilize it as long as it can be used, and how DAoC Dev team used to work before they got replaced and the game went to... wherever they are now.

So whenever you're going to make changes, whether it's Ranger or another class, never comprimise class identity and never make huge changes. Looking at these boards, I realize that has already been done to 'fix' something in the past. Making everyone have the same tools isn't making the game better, it's making it into a clone simulator. Rangers are supposed to have a buff advantage, Hunters are supposed to have a pet advantage and Scouts had their slam and their archery damage, but were supposed to need friends if they couldn't use their bow.

The further this server stray from what DAoC was, the less attractive the server becomes.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:10 AM
Nobody is helped when an overabundance of stealthers exists and it's even more detrimental when those stealthers are all from the same realm and it's even worse when it's the ranged kind. In this case there would not even have been the need to look at any numbers but the population count.

A nerf / buff doesn't neccessarily have to be justified by the theoretical performance of that class, it's enough if a huge perception problem exists that made the class fotm to the extent the ranger is right now, be it misguided or for real. And just to be clear, in this particular case the class being fotm to that extent is backed up by the theoretical performance, ie ranger is currently the highest damage archer class, not by a huge margin but still. It also doesn't help when a realm has the str relics for a prolonged amount of time.

So implementing a new fix to fix the previous mistake kind of thought process is going on, and justifying it by not realizing that the fact that there are too many Rangers is a direct result of previous mistakes? Use brute force, that will keep the playerbase friendly, happy and numerous...

/logic
Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:46 PM by Symptomettes
Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 5:35 PM
First of all, if Symptomettes is right and archer damage is equal between hunters, rangers and scouts, then someone has already messed up in the past. So begin fix issues there instead of giving everyone what makes rangers different. Take a long, hard look at how we ended up here, and you'll find that previous 'fixes' suggested by people who weren't thinking of the broader perspective of their 'fixes' and got accepted (somehow) is the reason why Rangers are (if they are) too strong at the moment.

You also have to consider more than the individual class, because DAOC is first and foremost a Realm vs Realm game, not a solo simulator. I do think Scouts should have the strongest archery in the game, if they haven't then that's a massive and stupid mistake by whoever made the change, no offense. Secondly, Albion have three stealther classes, which makes their potential stealth groups very strong. It doesn't matter if they don't utilize it as long as it can be used, and how DAoC Dev team used to work before they got replaced and the game went to... wherever they are now.

So whenever you're going to make changes, whether it's Ranger or another class, never comprimise class identity and never make huge changes. Looking at these boards, I realize that has already been done to 'fix' something in the past. Making everyone have the same tools isn't making the game better, it's making it into a clone simulator. Rangers are supposed to have a buff advantage, Hunters are supposed to have a pet advantage and Scouts had their slam and their archery damage, but were supposed to need friends if they couldn't use their bow.

The further this server stray from what DAoC was, the less attractive the server becomes.

I agree with most of what you are saying.

But honestly the differences between classes is what makes daoc unique with the 3 possible realms. But things have evolved from what classic was.

The design of the PF and Beastcraft was intended to make the class self sufficient with buffs and different from each others. I don't think when they create the game they took into consideration the possibility of buffboting. And when most people were bbed, that's where the archery changes happened on live. Self buff was supposed to be at this moment a way of not being able to be sheared. And if we took slam into consideration for scout : the new ra system have make it pretty much insignificant with the new purge system@timer. It's still very viable but that's why they gave scout the snare style.

NF Ra : Some realms were getting access of abilities that others didn't. At first when knowledge of the game wasn't as it was, it was fine. And two year and a half after the release of daoc we've got NF. It was a patch supposed to make all realms equal in terms of RA. And that's the real first big change of the game mechanics. Game evolve and competitivity too between players. The design of classes needs to stay "unique" but with balance behind the scene.

Now i will talk about Phoenix server : The "ranger" population has increase drastically cause of the recents changes in archery (damage). This change was needed cause of the health boost they gave to every classes. But thing is : people were abusing in one skill called "volley"... Now we get a population of players (not all of them) that is playing a class to use this skill in a way to maximise his damage (sniper spec). In result we get a mechanic of the game called rvr keep broken. Lot of people love to play the best char possible and since "ranger" was the most OP toon from the three archery classes, most player have rerolled it. And it's ok, people should be able to play what they want with their friends. RvR is not a duel area and it's ok to be zerg by more people.

But the moment a class is OVERPLAYED and BREAK a mechanic of the original game, you have only two possibilities :

1 : Nerf the class in question.
2 : Change mechanics to balance the three miror classes. (Like it was done for Sins with Viper for everyone, each of them still getting some specificities like DW / CD / LA and range attack : crossbow / knives / DD) : and as you can see it works, sins pop is not disproportionate in numbers.

I will vote for the second option ten times. Cause in the end that's the best way to get a healthy / ratio pop between the stealthers classes. Even if it change the mechanics and need a lot of work, it's probably the answer. It will give scout a little up that they diserve being the underdog for this long, and put rangers / hunters on the same pedestal. But this patch will be really important cause it will need a nerf in ranger damage without nerfing/uping hunter/scout archery. Scout damage are really ok so far, and i do think that it should be the strongest archer too, so why not taking their damage as a reference for the future patch ? Everyone should be happy about it since it will result in a global archery nerf. Except ranger ofc, but let's be honest here, it's needed.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 7:42 PM by Messerjockel
Please all stay on track.
This is about archers and not about minstrels which are today at 3.34pm EST 70 on the server by a alb population of 459, which is in percent 15.25%. Would be new to me that alb has only 6 classes by equal share to get to 100%.
Highest archer class at this time is hunter with 56 of 458, ranger at 51 of 446 and 35 scouts.

Maybe not everybody likes what I wrote but numbers are not lying, a new thread with adjustments opinions to downgrade the minstrels abilities should be opened by the Phoenix team.
To nerf a class because it is played too much and that is a sign it is OP would clearly put minstrels on spot 1 for adjustments.

Flup, hib
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:01 PM by Astaa
72 mincers on 47 rangers.

When are you going to fix mincers? They are broken!
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:34 PM by Fiatil
It's not a bad point. These changes are acting like rangers are the #1 class on every day at all times of the day. I checked a couple of times throughout the day yesterday, and they were the most played non-buffbot class by.....1. There was 1 more ranger on than there were Minstrels and Skalds. There were 6 less scouts on. I checked later in the day and they were behind several albion classes, when hib and alb populations were relatively the same.

I think if you nerf volley you will achieve the results you want. Rangers are not overpowered in open field combat or in 1 v 1 play -- the combination of rangers doing a bit more damage with their bow, and volley, has lead to organized groups of rangers all ground target assisting volleys and being very effective of it. Part of that is just good strategy the other realms don't use, but either way it can be fixed by nerfing volley.

I just don't want to have to switch realms to play an archer that does archery as their main thing. You can't spec any reasonable degree of celtic dual and still do competitive bow damage -- switching them to a celtic dual hybrid class only is excessive.

Edit: Just did a /serverinfo 50 at 3:40 PM central today. Hibernia has 295 50s, Albion has 259, Midgard has 263. So most 50s on Hibernia by a decent degree.

Classes that are currently more played than ranger (not counting buffers): Minstrel 38, Bard 31, Skald 31, Enchanter 30, Animist 29, Runemaster 28.......then Ranger 26, cabalist 25, bonedancer 24......

Minstrels are by far the highest % of their realm, and every other class I listed is a higher % than rangers.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:43 PM by Astaa
Following bad logic, when are you going to nerf casters and boost tanks for siege? Of 1249 players online right now the bottom 4 online are all tanks there are just 12 mercs, 13 savages, 14 arms, 16 VWs. While there are 42 enchanters 41 necros, 41 BDs, 38 RMs and 38 cabalists. (also 61 mincers, top, 43 rangers, 42 hunters, 31 scouts)

The logic is completely flawed and the reason given extremely weak. All realms have the exact same volley, only one realm uses it effectively.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:54 PM by Messerjockel
Hmm,with the realm which uses it effectively is hib?
In that case i am ineffective because I am not assisting GT.
My GT is placed in the biggest crowed.

If volley is really so bad for balance, double the timer or reduce range or damage.

Flup, hib
Sun 23 Aug 2020 9:37 PM by Tyrlaan
I dunno. There was a time when a) Scouts could get higher D/Q (with charges). That was changed. And at that time b) Ranger self buffs were lower delve. That was changed too. So Rangers having quite the advantage with self buffs has been entirely intentional. As was removing a couple advantages Scouts had (crit shot on slammed target etc.) Scouts can usually get a damadd from a friendly Wizard though.

I don´t think nerfing Rangers and buffing Scouts with self buffs in archery, i.e. making Scouts the new Rangers, is gonna help. And I absolutely despise the new archery which also had buffs in it. Keep the archers different, each with their strength and their spec lines.

Rangers have had relic bonuses for quite some time but that is more of a problem with Hib´s zerg strength. And Volley needs a nerf (IMO the RUT), making the higher archery damage such a high damaging GTAE (which many archers use together with a catapult, like on the roof of a tower) is what needs to be addressed.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 9:51 PM by Lokkjim
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 9:37 PM
I dunno. There was a time when a) Scouts could get higher D/Q (with charges). That was changed. And at that time b) Ranger self buffs were lower delve. That was changed too. So Rangers having quite the advantage with self buffs has been entirely intentional. As was removing a couple advantages Scouts had (crit shot on slammed target etc.) Scouts can usually get a damadd from a friendly Wizard though.

I don´t think nerfing Rangers and buffing Scouts with self buffs in archery, i.e. making Scouts the new Rangers, is gonna help. And I absolutely despise the new archery which also had buffs in it. Keep the archers different, each with their strength and their spec lines.

Rangers have had relic bonuses for quite some time but that is more of a problem with Hib´s zerg strength. And Volley needs a nerf (IMO the RUT), making the higher archery damage such a high damaging GTAE (which many archers use together with a catapult, like on the roof of a tower) is what needs to be addressed.

Jeez, I didn't even think of that, an archer using volley and a catapult at the same time? That's ridiculous, lol.
Sun 23 Aug 2020 10:12 PM by Messerjockel
I was surprised as well, never thought about the catapult :-).

Flup, hib
Sun 23 Aug 2020 10:37 PM by CowwoC
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Aug 2020 9:09 PM
The goal of these changes is to reduce the ranger population and while at it also to reduce the general effect of archers in siege fights:

A problematic ability in siege fights is volley, these are potential changes:
1) Longer cooldown, about 3 minutes
2) Damage set to a flat value not scaling with other archery stuff

As for changes to archery, a pretty big problem here is that all 3 archers are pretty much the same with just the hunter and ranger potentially having better self buffs, for the hunter this is somewhat offset by not having access to the slowest bows.
Anyways, due to those self buffs it'll always be the case that a ranger has a higher dex ceiling than a scout leading therefore to a higher average damage at the same archery spec. While ofc this dex advantage is pretty much only given for the bow only spec, it basically makes the ranger the best character for someone who wants to play that playstyle because even if a scout wanted to do it it would be less effective.

There are basically 2 solutions:
1) Do a ranger only nerf wrt archery damage
2) Give scout access to the self buffs and reduce archery damage in general so that a then fully self buffed scout does the same damage as a currently potion buffed scout

Solution 2 basically means:
Fold pathfinding self buffs into archery making it available to all 3 realms, remove pathfinding, remove hunter self buffs from beast mastery. The removal of pathfinding would mean reducing the skill points gained for rangers to not just give them a massive melee buff but to keep the essence / downsides of the current 50 48 bow only spec.

As others pointed out already, the ranger population isn't noticeable higher than other classes most of the time. Actually they are below other mentioned classes(it varies per time obviously) which are not considered to be nerfed, even though those classes have a higher impact on the general realm defense.

Ranger with full bow spec just work in siege fights only or on choke points, they can sit down if engaged in melee. On top of that comes the fact that hibs play together, even ranger team up in siege fights and assist eachother - which might lead to the false conclusion that those ranger are too strong in siege fights. Volley can be annoying but so can gtaoe from caster if they assist(and they can put a gtaoe even through walls to any location and hit you - you can't do that with volley). Putting places like a roof under pressure with those tools is part of the game and if you die to them you either don't pay attention or you force it.

Now considering that many seem to complain about the mysterious crits of 1k dmg maybe leads to other problems rather than just the crit shot dmg. You could argue that - while full bow ranger hit you hard and can't do much else - other classes have way more tools and still hit you for a lot of damage in many situiations, not just a siege fight. The damage feels off because the main population plays a caster, which are vulnerable to archery if not protected by a healer or tank.

For me this potential change feels like a slap in the face to all people who enjoy playing archer classes, just because people who mainly play non-archer classes aka caster(because tanks are just plain boring in siege fights - which are omnipresent on phoenix and the main rps source for casuals) and i don't even play an archer but a caster. If there should be any potential change to the game, then it would be to make healer classes and tanks more attractive to play(especially for keep fights), rather to make other classes unattractive to play.

[imho]
Mon 24 Aug 2020 12:16 AM by daytonchambers
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 8:01 PM
72 mincers on 47 rangers.

When are you going to fix mincers? They are broken!

I hate minstrels with a passion. Like, I REALLY fucking hate that class.

That said it's the speed 6 class for Albion, so the numbers will be inflated no matter what due to the solo players out and about plus the smalls and 8man groups also needing the class to be competitive. Any core class needed for a group (buffer, heals, speed, primary CC) will have inflated numbers for that reason.

Rangers have very healthy numbers despite having zero group utility.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 3:54 AM by gotwqqd
3 min timer is absurd

Fix.
1. Mild increase to the reuse...say 45 seconds
2. Spread out the arrows shot over 20 seconds, this gives time to move if paying attention.
3.Only Allow dame target to be hit once in whatever time arrow draw time is
Mon 24 Aug 2020 3:58 AM by gotwqqd
Force the stealth apart unless they are willing to live with the downside.
Any enemy stealth within xxxunits(to be determined...maybe 1000 units) increases detect range by x . Where x is the number of stealth.
This is for any and all enemies stealthed, no group required.

Maybe even need to increase the nearby range for archers to 2000 units...as they can thwart 1000 units easily by spacing
The last thing any archer or assassin wants is reduction of damage, they will gladly live with these changes before getting damage reduced
Mon 24 Aug 2020 4:26 AM by goten9033
Why should archers be pentalized to group? Or anyone for that case. That’s like saying all the 8 man groups shouldn’t run with a healer or speed.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 5:04 AM by gotwqqd
goten9033 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 4:26 AM
Why should archers be pentalized to group? Or anyone for that case. That’s like saying all the 8 man groups shouldn’t run with a healer or speed.
If you can’t see why I don’t know what to say.
It’s obvious and lost on you
Mon 24 Aug 2020 5:24 AM by Kwall0311
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 3:58 AM
Force the stealth apart unless they are willing to live with the downside.
Any enemy stealth within xxxunits(to be determined...maybe 1000 units) increases detect range by x . Where x is the number of stealth.
This is for any and all enemies stealthed, no group required.

Maybe even need to increase the nearby range for archers to 2000 units...as they can thwart 1000 units easily by spacing
The last thing any archer or assassin wants is reduction of damage, they will gladly live with these changes before getting damage reduced

How does that help? So im soloing and another stealther solo, duo, zerg comes near me so im SoL? That leads to people flaming eachother to move, etc. Why? because this already happens with how they have increased detection for stealthers near eachother.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 5:53 AM by goten9033
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 5:04 AM
goten9033 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 4:26 AM
Why should archers be pentalized to group? Or anyone for that case. That’s like saying all the 8 man groups shouldn’t run with a healer or speed.
If you can’t see why I don’t know what to say.
It’s obvious and lost on you

Nothing lost on me , it’s a group oriented game. Stealthers can group just as visible classes . Stealthers running together has happened since Daoc started .
Mon 24 Aug 2020 6:26 AM by Sabatasso79
My suggestion for a far less intrusive fix for both archers and the 'overplayed' issue;

- Create a Scout only usable item quest reward with Dex/Qui charges that are on par with Hunter and Ranger Dex/Qui buff. That will fix their ranged damage in comparison to the other archer classes without destroying the identity of the classes.
- Reduce overall archery damage to make the class slightly less attractive, if it doesn't work bring it further down.
- Make stealth less effective for every 4 there are within a certain area for non Assassin classes (Hunters, Scouts, Rangers and Minstrels).


Also, if we look at DAOC historically, we should have known something would happen when the server moved to New Frontiers. What happened on live? Less chokepoints meant assassins had to roam around and Perforate Artery opportunities became fewer and farther between. More archers got played, as they have range... which is a natural choice. It's not rocket science to predict what's going to happen, just look at what happened to the live servers.

We all agree that the live servers are in a bad state, that's why we're not playting on them, right? So why are you making changes that is going down the same road as live? Very weird... VERY weird.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 7:59 AM by IdiamVonGawaine
"The goal of these changes is to reduce the ranger population and while at it also to reduce the general effect of archers in siege fights:"

Why is it just rangers that are the issue and not minstrels, or skalds? What about the infiltrator and shadowblade populations? How about the sorceror populations? This makes no sense as far as gameplay is concerned and seems more like petty vendetta.


"A problematic ability in siege fights is volley....."

Why? Because it's melee? What about caster damage? Why isn't that problematic? Why isn't the crowd control that renders characters completely helpless the problem?




"As for changes to archery, a pretty big problem here is that all 3 archers are pretty much the same...."

Really? Are they pretty much the same? Does anybody actually play this game on your team?
Scout
- Higher con/str races
- Can spec shield to defend himself from OTHER ARCHERS at range and stun them at close range
Hunter
- Higher con/str races
- Can spec beastcraft which allows them to defend themselves from OTHER ARCHERS with interupting pets
Ranger
- Higher dex races
- Can spec pathfinding for higher damage DUE TO A COMPLETE LACK OF DEFENSIVE ABILITIES THAT THEIR RIVAL ARCHERS SHARE

They're not the same. AT ALL. Never have been.


"While ofc this dex advantage is pretty much only given for the bow only spec, it basically makes the ranger the best character for someone who wants to play that playstyle"

And? Why are rangers being singled out? It's not like there's better casters, crowd control, and tanks in this game, but it's suddenly a problem with rangers and archers?
PETTY. VINDICTIVE. Where's the Hibernian high str/con assassin class? Oh, wait......that's right, they don't have one.


"There are basically 2 solutions:
1) Do a ranger only nerf wrt archery damage"

A THIRD solution: IGNORE THE CRYING MASSES!

I specced 50 bow precisely because my melee SUCKED even when it was 50. WTF else am I supposed to spec as an archer? Now you're telling me that my char will have a choice of speccing garbage melee OR garbage archery?

You've already nerfed archery, and ALL melee damage, with the ablatives and heal procs added to the game. Compare the DPS of your average caster with a ranger or ANY archer, and there's NO COMPARISON, as the caster out dps's EVERYBODY. But that's fine? Why is it fine for casters, but not archers, or tanks, or assasins? More petty, vindictive, and biased lack of reasoning from developers.

You know what stops arrows in this game? Shield spec, and shield spec tanks. Imagine if, instead of destroying an entire class, which is what you are probably going to do, you actually encouraged more people to roll shield tanks instead of the myriad of caster and stealth classes that this game is dominated with due to the constant melee nerfs that have taken place rendering them useless outside of ram riding, cat operating, and PvE.


Here's a better idea for you...

JUST GET RID OF ALL ARCHERS, ASSASINS AND MELEE CHARACTERS ALREADY. Make them NPC's that can be purchased for cheap for the caster and support classes that the game developers, and apparently a majority of the player base, favors. This way people don't have to waste their time roleing a char and kitting it out only to be rendered obsolete or fodder by petty and vindictive players and game designers that actually have to face something comparable to a caster or other ranged class.

Shame on you all.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 10:51 AM by Cipon
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 3:58 AM
Force the stealth apart unless they are willing to live with the downside.
Any enemy stealth within xxxunits(to be determined...maybe 1000 units) increases detect range by x . Where x is the number of stealth.
This is for any and all enemies stealthed, no group required.

Maybe even need to increase the nearby range for archers to 2000 units...as they can thwart 1000 units easily by spacing
The last thing any archer or assassin wants is reduction of damage, they will gladly live with these changes before getting damage reduced

Let's decrease healing when there is more than xxx healers in the same area because you know, it's to hard to kill someone when there's healers.
Let's decrease speed when there is more than xxx player in the same area because when i play solo i can't roam in speed 6 all the time
It also works with casters damages or melee damages or whatever u want

In fact just remove what is annoying because u dont want to adapt your playstyle
Mon 24 Aug 2020 11:12 AM by Stoertebecker
Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 6:26 AM
We all agree that the live servers are in a bad state, that's why we're not playting on them, right?

Has not much to do in which state the live server is. Most of the ppl that play here don`t wanna play ToA stuff and pay a monthly sub.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 12:16 PM by Centenario
"The goal of these changes is to reduce the ranger population and while at it also to reduce the general effect of archers in siege fights:"
"As for changes to archery, a pretty big problem here is that all 3 archers are pretty much the same...."

If I would nerf something on hib, it wouldn't be rangers, but the casters: I would remove the ranged castable stun from casters. Give it to druid and give root to the casters. It is really too OP.
I am considering switching to Hib just to double down on population imbalance until something is done to fix the balance.

For the rangers:
- don't give them access to more than 5.0 speed bow, like midgard, only Longbow (alb) should have access to 5.1-5.5 bows.
- give all buffs a 5min duration forcing them to unstealth to reapply
Mon 24 Aug 2020 12:19 PM by Sabatasso79
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 11:12 AM
Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 6:26 AM
We all agree that the live servers are in a bad state, that's why we're not playting on them, right?

Has not much to do in which state the live server is. Most of the ppl that play here don`t wanna play ToA stuff and pay a monthly sub.

Great job of picking one sentence out of context and reply like a 'boss'. If you want to reply, reply properly or get ignored.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 12:24 PM by thirian24
If the DEVs take any advice at all, I hope it's this one.

1. Don't listen to anything Gotwqqd has to offer.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 12:28 PM by Sabatasso79
If more people played classes with shields, archers would be less of an issue. The main problem then is long range caster damage from casters who are too tanky because their survivability were buffed in the past because 1) someone was whining because he wanted to solo his caster and 2) his group weren't able to properly shield him from the assist train in the open field.

Then there is the issue of melee classes not having anything sensible to do in keep fights, which makes them roll a caster or an archer. The problem persists. If the devs think they fix anything by gimping all archers, or particularly Rangers, then they are mistaken.

It's a simple explanation of a more complex problemt. Where the problem actually begins is difficult for me to say, but it probably started when the first 'balancing fix' was implemented on the server. Look back on old 'fixes' and figure out what went wrong, then revert those fixes instead of further destroying the server by adding new 'fixes' that doesn't fix anything.

Anyone who has spent at least one semester at University level in any humanoira related subjects knows that simple solutions to complex problems only creates more complex problems.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 1:15 PM by Lokkjim
The goal of this thread isn't just to decide between the two proposed changes. They said those are the POTENTIAL options. That said, there have been a few posts with other suggestions that we should support in one way or another. So with the community's help, we should come up with a solution or we'll just get one of the two original options.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 1:50 PM by goten9033
Fix, give archers access to physical defense again


Joking that would not fix anything. I can’t really speak about volley currently as I always avoided keep fights and soloed in the open field or ran with stealther friends.

I would think if anything scout needs a little help of the three archers. They used to be the most dominant bow damage with the weakest mele. The propose change to merge buffs into the archery line seems like a good plan but hurts anyone that’s mele spec.

What if rather then reduce ranger spec points give scouts more spec points and add the path finding line and add in the extra buffs for hunters into there beast craft line I think it is?

Just some thoughts. Only trying to help
Mon 24 Aug 2020 2:33 PM by Cadebrennus
IdiamVonGawaine wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 7:59 AM
"The goal of these changes is to reduce the ranger population and while at it also to reduce the general effect of archers in siege fights:"

Why is it just rangers that are the issue and not minstrels, or skalds? What about the infiltrator and shadowblade populations? How about the sorceror populations? This makes no sense as far as gameplay is concerned and seems more like petty vendetta.


"A problematic ability in siege fights is volley....."

Why? Because it's melee? What about caster damage? Why isn't that problematic? Why isn't the crowd control that renders characters completely helpless the problem?




"As for changes to archery, a pretty big problem here is that all 3 archers are pretty much the same...."

Really? Are they pretty much the same? Does anybody actually play this game on your team?
Scout
- Higher con/str races
- Can spec shield to defend himself from OTHER ARCHERS at range and stun them at close range
Hunter
- Higher con/str races
- Can spec beastcraft which allows them to defend themselves from OTHER ARCHERS with interupting pets
Ranger
- Higher dex races
- Can spec pathfinding for higher damage DUE TO A COMPLETE LACK OF DEFENSIVE ABILITIES THAT THEIR RIVAL ARCHERS SHARE

They're not the same. AT ALL. Never have been.


"While ofc this dex advantage is pretty much only given for the bow only spec, it basically makes the ranger the best character for someone who wants to play that playstyle"

And? Why are rangers being singled out? It's not like there's better casters, crowd control, and tanks in this game, but it's suddenly a problem with rangers and archers?
PETTY. VINDICTIVE. Where's the Hibernian high str/con assassin class? Oh, wait......that's right, they don't have one.


"There are basically 2 solutions:
1) Do a ranger only nerf wrt archery damage"

A THIRD solution: IGNORE THE CRYING MASSES!

I specced 50 bow precisely because my melee SUCKED even when it was 50. WTF else am I supposed to spec as an archer? Now you're telling me that my char will have a choice of speccing garbage melee OR garbage archery?

You've already nerfed archery, and ALL melee damage, with the ablatives and heal procs added to the game. Compare the DPS of your average caster with a ranger or ANY archer, and there's NO COMPARISON, as the caster out dps's EVERYBODY. But that's fine? Why is it fine for casters, but not archers, or tanks, or assasins? More petty, vindictive, and biased lack of reasoning from developers.

You know what stops arrows in this game? Shield spec, and shield spec tanks. Imagine if, instead of destroying an entire class, which is what you are probably going to do, you actually encouraged more people to roll shield tanks instead of the myriad of caster and stealth classes that this game is dominated with due to the constant melee nerfs that have taken place rendering them useless outside of ram riding, cat operating, and PvE.


Here's a better idea for you...

JUST GET RID OF ALL ARCHERS, ASSASINS AND MELEE CHARACTERS ALREADY. Make them NPC's that can be purchased for cheap for the caster and support classes that the game developers, and apparently a majority of the player base, favors. This way people don't have to waste their time roleing a char and kitting it out only to be rendered obsolete or fodder by petty and vindictive players and game designers that actually have to face something comparable to a caster or other ranged class.

Shame on you all.

I couldn't agree more. Even when running around with an unspecced Shield on my Ranger in open frontier (running from point A to point B) or during keep sieges (for defense against Volley) I never died solely because of Archery damage.

The problem isn't the game. The problem (and the solutions) lie with the players.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 2:59 PM by Lokkjim
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 2:33 PM
I couldn't agree more. Even when running around with an unspecced Shield on my Ranger in open frontier (running from point A to point B) or during keep sieges (for defense against Volley) I never died solely because of Archery damage.

The problem isn't the game. The problem (and the solutions) lie with the players.

When you can use volley in between firing a catapult at the same time, that's a huge issue. Regardless of how many counters archery has.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 3:39 PM by caelio
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Aug 2020 9:09 PM
The goal of these changes is to reduce the ranger population and while at it also to reduce the general effect of archers in siege fights:

A problematic ability in siege fights is volley, these are potential changes:
1) Longer cooldown, about 3 minutes
2) Damage set to a flat value not scaling with other archery stuff

As for changes to archery, a pretty big problem here is that all 3 archers are pretty much the same with just the hunter and ranger potentially having better self buffs, for the hunter this is somewhat offset by not having access to the slowest bows.
Anyways, due to those self buffs it'll always be the case that a ranger has a higher dex ceiling than a scout leading therefore to a higher average damage at the same archery spec. While ofc this dex advantage is pretty much only given for the bow only spec, it basically makes the ranger the best character for someone who wants to play that playstyle because even if a scout wanted to do it it would be less effective.

There are basically 2 solutions:
1) Do a ranger only nerf wrt archery damage
2) Give scout access to the self buffs and reduce archery damage in general so that a then fully self buffed scout does the same damage as a currently potion buffed scout

Solution 2 basically means:
Fold pathfinding self buffs into archery making it available to all 3 realms, remove pathfinding, remove hunter self buffs from beast mastery. The removal of pathfinding would mean reducing the skill points gained for rangers to not just give them a massive melee buff but to keep the essence / downsides of the current 50 48 bow only spec.
this server is totally unbalanced, it is only your fault. You did nothing for several months with rangers
Mon 24 Aug 2020 4:19 PM by Cadebrennus
caelio wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 3:39 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Aug 2020 9:09 PM
The goal of these changes is to reduce the ranger population and while at it also to reduce the general effect of archers in siege fights:

A problematic ability in siege fights is volley, these are potential changes:
1) Longer cooldown, about 3 minutes
2) Damage set to a flat value not scaling with other archery stuff

As for changes to archery, a pretty big problem here is that all 3 archers are pretty much the same with just the hunter and ranger potentially having better self buffs, for the hunter this is somewhat offset by not having access to the slowest bows.
Anyways, due to those self buffs it'll always be the case that a ranger has a higher dex ceiling than a scout leading therefore to a higher average damage at the same archery spec. While ofc this dex advantage is pretty much only given for the bow only spec, it basically makes the ranger the best character for someone who wants to play that playstyle because even if a scout wanted to do it it would be less effective.

There are basically 2 solutions:
1) Do a ranger only nerf wrt archery damage
2) Give scout access to the self buffs and reduce archery damage in general so that a then fully self buffed scout does the same damage as a currently potion buffed scout

Solution 2 basically means:
Fold pathfinding self buffs into archery making it available to all 3 realms, remove pathfinding, remove hunter self buffs from beast mastery. The removal of pathfinding would mean reducing the skill points gained for rangers to not just give them a massive melee buff but to keep the essence / downsides of the current 50 48 bow only spec.
this server is totally unbalanced, it is only your fault. You did nothing for several months with rangers

The worst possible thing that they did was to give evade stuns in the Blades/Slash lines. This completely unbalanced all stealther specs and play
Mon 24 Aug 2020 5:24 PM by Lokkjim
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 4:19 PM
The worst possible thing that they did was to give evade stuns in the Blades/Slash lines. This completely unbalanced all stealther specs and play

I can agree with that, but I wonder where the original argument for it came from. Mid doesn't get a choice as far as assassins go and alb has to choose between being good against hib or good against mid. Hib has the slash advantage and Mid also had the left axe stun iirc. Either way, I'm fine with giving up blades/slash evade stun. I agree that it shouldn't be a thing, if they just made it a block stun for other classes that'd be fine too. But this probably isn't the thread to talk about this option.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 5:43 PM by Cadebrennus
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 5:24 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 4:19 PM
The worst possible thing that they did was to give evade stuns in the Blades/Slash lines. This completely unbalanced all stealther specs and play

I can agree with that, but I wonder where the original argument for it came from. Mid doesn't get a choice as far as assassins go and alb has to choose between being good against hib or good against mid. Hib has the slash advantage and Mid also had the left axe stun iirc. Either way, I'm fine with giving up blades/slash evade stun. I agree that it shouldn't be a thing, if they just made it a block stun for other classes that'd be fine too. But this probably isn't the thread to talk about this option.

It's more of a general stealther thing but it definitely unbalanced play. It was originally an off-block style (same with Mid sword if I remember correctly.) However it also indirectly led to the crescendo of whines which are now bleeding into other "nerf Archer" whines
Mon 24 Aug 2020 6:51 PM by Horus
Remove Volley
Give every archer the same spec lines..weapon/shield/PF/Bow/Stealth
Remove hunter pet
Give everyone the same range and same bows.

No one can complain then....right?

BTW if we are using population to determine nerfs...

When are minstrels and clerics gonna get the bat? They are constantly at the top of the population list vs bards and druids. If you are going to use population as your logic behind nerfs at least be consistent/

Current snapshot

[14:47:04] Albion: 466
[14:47:04] Midgard: 408
[14:47:04] Hibernia: 389
[14:47:04] --------------
[14:47:04] Classes:
[14:47:04] Minstrel: 62
[14:47:04] Cleric: 56
[14:47:04] Cabalist: 52
[14:47:04] Bonedancer: 51
[14:47:04] Shaman: 50
[14:47:04] Ranger: 49
[14:47:04] Skald: 49
[14:47:04] Healer: 47
[14:47:04] Druid: 47
[14:47:04] Bard: 44
[14:47:04] Huntress: 43
[14:47:04] Necromancer: 40
[14:47:04] Sorcerer: 39
[14:47:04] Wizard: 36
[14:47:04] Nightshade: 35
[14:47:04] Animist: 33
[14:47:04] Enchanter: 32
[14:47:04] Warrior: 29
[14:47:04] Spiritmaster: 29
[14:47:04] Scout: 28
[14:47:04] Reaver: 28
[14:47:04] Runemaster: 26
[14:47:04] Friar: 26
[14:47:04] Eldritch: 26
[14:47:04] Thane: 25
[14:47:04] Theurgist: 25
[14:47:04] Shadowblade: 25
[14:47:04] Valewalker: 24
[14:47:04] Warden: 21
[14:47:04] Hero: 21
[14:47:04] Champion: 20
[14:47:04] Paladin: 19
[14:47:04] Mentalist: 19
[14:47:04] Mercenary: 19
[14:47:04] Blademaster: 19
[14:47:04] Infiltrator: 18
[14:47:04] Savage: 17
[14:47:04] Berserker: 17
[14:47:04] Armswoman: 17
Mon 24 Aug 2020 7:18 PM by Lokkjim
Can we stop comparing archers to a group/zerg integral class like minstrels, skalds, clerics, etc. Thanks.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 7:20 PM by Astaa
Yeah that's fine, a mincer only needs a yellow pet for group RvR, nothing lost if they fixed them.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 7:24 PM by DinoTriz
Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 6:51 PM
[14:47:04] Armswoman: 17

This is insulting to Heavy Tanks in Alb.

Must we kick them while they're down?
Mon 24 Aug 2020 7:59 PM by bobsmiththethird
A ranger only nerf would be short sighted and terrible form.

If you want archers to go back to useless just revert the dmg buff to archery spec and remove blade after evade stun and remove scout shield snare, now we're back to normal and everyones "happy" no more custom needed.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 8:28 PM by Freedomcall
I still am not sure what "folding pathfinding into archery" exactly means.
Does it mean hunters and scouts will also get base str and self dmg add buffs as well as d/q?
And also speed warp and spec af for scouts too?

Anyway, I want to write about my thoughts as well although there is limited information regarding to devs' thoughts.

1. About volley
1) I think 3 min rut for volley is too long and it'll make it not worth to invest 8 RA points.
I personally think what volley makes strong is that it can hit a specific person multiple times.
If a person steps into a volley zone alone, you can see he can be hit even 3-4 times from a 'single' archer(from total 5 shots).
So, if there are multiple archers volleying on same gt, you can actually see player's hp literally evaporate.
If devs could change the mechanics of volley so that a player can't be hit more than once from 5 shots, lots of problems of volley will be fixed.

2) One of the reasons why rangers show the best bow damage is the self damage add.
Red dmg add grants 38ish bonus to every shot with 5.5 spd bow, and it even affects the volley dmg.
So removing the dmg add influence from volley could be a way to adjust volley damage as well.

3) Reducing max volley range would be also a possible way rather than increasing rut.
One of the reasons volley is hard to be countered is because it has 2900-3000ish range on field, which increases to, like, 3300 or even to 3500 if the archer is on wall.

2. About archery damage
Archery damage buff was indeed one of the huge mistakes that happened on Phoenix.
After HP increase for longer ttk, archers are the only ones that had their damage buff.
I believe devs were a bit naive and was deceived by archers who argued 'they want to be solo but was force to group cuz of poor archery damage'.
Current bow damage is only suitable for duel zone, and is not for rvr where multiple archers are shooting same target.
Archery damage was buffed for false reason from the start, and it should be reverted asap.

3. Folding pathfinding into archery
1) Again, I'm not exactly sure what that exactly means, but I don't think it is a good idea.
It will make melee rangers/hunters/scouts impossible.
Although some argue that melee specced archers are not "real archers", it is reality that some people enjoy melee specced archers.
And these are the players who didn't get any benefit from archery damage.
Making them to change their spec all of a sudden doesn't seem like a good idea.

2) If any self buff should be granted to scouts, I think scouts also has to give up something.
Scouts should be not able to hold, for example, red d/q buff and slam at the same time.
They have to choose either one.

3) Again, Devs should remind that self damage add buff was one of the reasons why ranger's bow damage was the highest.
Thus, no matter what they do with archers, rangers will show the highest damage if they have dmg add alone.
So if you want to reduce the damage gap from ranger to hunters and scouts, changing the mechanics so that DA does not work on archery anymore would be one of the ways to reduce gap as well.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 9:09 PM by DinoTriz
I hate being ambushed.

It sucks. It makes me mad.

But the ambusher deserves the kill because he set the ambush up. He was patient and crafted his trap.

Respect.

Archers live and die by the ambush. Just like assassins, they're the center of controversy. On every game.

Archers, I hate you. So much.

But I don't think you deserve being nerfed for being you.

Because you're beautiful just the way you were born. - Lady Gaga™
Mon 24 Aug 2020 9:14 PM by Astaa
Albs and Mids might whine about volley but their archers don't use it. So the answer the devs give is to nerf it.

Every archer class has virtually the same RA choices, why nerf Hib because Albs and Mids* don't bother speccing it?

*at this point, who cares what mids do in RvR, if it's not camping a flag they aren't interested.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 9:36 PM by Lokkjim
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 9:14 PM
Albs and Mids might whine about volley but their archers don't use it. So the answer the devs give is to nerf it.

Every archer class has virtually the same RA choices, why nerf Hib because Albs and Mids* don't bother speccing it?

*at this point, who cares what mids do in RvR, if it's not camping a flag they aren't interested.

To be fair, albs and mids don't have 10-20 archers in every zerg like hib. Using the earlier /serverinfo we can see there are 49 rangers compared to 43 hunters and 28 scouts. Hunters could definitely help their BG and be a force if they wanted to in this case. But I think the number of hunters has gone up recently so they may need some time to integrate. Scouts, on the other hand, cut it up in thirds for playstyles, 9-10 solo, 9-10 grouped, 9-10 in the zerg.

I know people can play scouts if they wanted to sure, but at some point, you have to admit that rangers brought this on themselves. Almost always at the top of the chart and they aren't even a group integral class. I'm not saying there is something overpowered about the class, but in my mmo experience, when there are too many of a non-essential class, something usually happens to that class to change it somehow. Usually, it isn't good.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 10:26 PM by Messerjockel
Minstrel are also up in the chart always.
The argument that it is a support class is no argument because they are one of the best solo classes in the game too.
I could argue, i am range dps and have to give indirect fire support the same way minstrel say they provide speed.

Flup, hib.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 10:44 PM by Lokkjim
Messerjockel wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 10:26 PM
Minstrel are also up in the chart always.
The argument that it is a support class is no argument because they are one of the best solo classes in the game too.
I could argue, i am range dps and have to give indirect fire support the same way minstrel say they provide speed.

Flup, hib.

Do groups demand archers? Hardly. Do they demand speed? Yes. Tell me how often you see an 8-man running without a bard/skald/minstrel. Just because they are one of the best solo classes doesn't change the fact that they are almost mandatory in a group. Even though they are one of the best soloers, rangers still outnumber them at times. You never see groups asking for an archer, which is why the argument that rangers are overpopulated holds weight.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 11:05 PM by Astaa
Again, capping their pets at yellow won't affect group play but will fix their solo/small man dominance, so it's an easy win...right?

But no, that won't ever happen, because they are nerf proof, for...reasons...

A class that can climb walls, charm red pets, stun, mez, sos, stealth, run speed, wear chain (probably missing something) and the devs want to nerf rangers....really, actual lol.

Clueless.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 11:05 PM by Messerjockel
In a keep or tower fight I would prefer archer because of indirect fire support over a minstrel.

Flup, hib.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 11:11 PM by jk123
Devs are going down that outright-nerf-route now?
Ok, best way to kill a server.
Good Luck!

Give & Take is the win-win-formula, not Nerf & Take.
Don't you know the basics?

Nerf volley (kill it with 3min timer -lol- or just delete it), but give something substantial instead! Make bows immune to nearsight at higher spec,
so that a 45-50 bowspec-archer isn't totally useless 50% of the time in Keep fights e.g..
Scouts getting buffs would be really nice, i advocated for this for a long time - but not by nerfing on the other side!
Even mediocre groups right now can handle archery damage so well, it is sad already - and you want to nerf it even more?!?

If you'd incorporate Self-Buff-Lines of Rangers and Hunters into an All-Archery-Spec-line, give Hunters and Rangers compensation.
Don't just steal/nerf ffs. Let them have their free'd up spec points at least for 50%. The exact implementation values and their spec-lvls into the archery-line will be very important though, so that melee-builds, that were viable before, can also be viable after the change: No damn +50 Str-buff at 50 spec in bow and nonsense like that.

I don't like this NERF-ONLY-TALK at all.
Bad, bad vibes.
Mon 24 Aug 2020 11:40 PM by Lokkjim
Messerjockel wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 11:05 PM
In a keep or tower fight I would prefer archer because of indirect fire support over a minstrel.

Flup, hib.

9/10 healers would prefer power song over indirect fire support.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 1:17 AM by Horus
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 7:18 PM
Can we stop comparing archers to a group/zerg integral class like minstrels, skalds, clerics, etc. Thanks.

So it is your contention that as long as a toon is more "group friendly" it is acceptable to be OPed to the other realms' counterpart?
And although "population" seems to be the determining factor, it only applies to the ranger population? How many zergs run at speed 5 or 6? Maybe in alb because there are so many minstrels. Is that not more OP than a few rangers when hib has to run at hastener speed? I am comparing minstrels and clerics populations to bards and druids. Are they not equally group/zerg integral...yet a much higher population of the former?

There were 6 fewer hunters on earlier today than rangers. A 6 player difference is nothing. What is more dangerous, 6 extra rangers or 20 extra minstrels?

Could it be people that choose a hunter/ranger/scout/sb/ns/infilt/minstrel do so because they prefer a solo play style?
Could it be there are fewer scouts because albs have the minstrel option which is the top of population chart? Most choose realm 1st then a toon.

I prefer hib. I would have preferred to play a Nightshade but phoenix does not allow Celt nightshades so it pushed me to Ranger...if I had the minstrel option I would have chose that.

Now this may sound like a nerf minstrel rant. It is not. It is just illustrating the folly and simple-mindedness of using population as a nerf justification... and if you are going to do that, using it for other classes is just as valid.

On the topic of a Volley nerf...ok fine. A couple a ideas...the 1st is make Longshot a pre-requisite for Volley. The other is make rams consider "roofed" ie if you are operating a ram you can't get hit by volley.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 3:41 AM by Pigleto
Simple solution to Volley. Make Volley limited by the range of your bow. The current 3k range of Volley is a bit too much. It puts the archer out of the distance of enemies while safely shooting without any repercussions. By making the archer get closer it creates a chance for him to get hurt by damage, and any damage the archer takes nullifies his Volley. Make the reuse on the Volley 30 seconds because it is an 8 point RA.

As far as pathfinding buffs and beastcraft, just put them in all skill lines. Put it in sword, pierce, CD, spear, Bow etc. Basically, whatever skill line is the highest for that person, he uses the better of the buffs.

Some of us like to follow the task and run stealth groups apart from the BG. Right now the bow is our better damage and we have to hope that we get the jump on assassins with our bow before we get in melee combat with them. I think if you nerf our bow damage you need to do something to compensate for our defense in either physical defense or dodger because assassins are also over the top too in a 1v1 setting. Even with IP 5 you can die to an assassin and then you have to wait 15 mins on IP. By nerfing the archer's only sizable dps you make him not on par vs assassins.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 5:47 AM by Kikicorky96
I tried to read carefully everything before replying.
My main is a theurgist but I play a 7L scout on a regular basis.

As for the main suggestion from the devs, if I may give an opinion, I don't believe in big changes to the current archery systems.
Yes, I am regularly frustrated when I get crit shot on my scout by a 950+ damage shot from a ranger, and yes, somehow, I would love to get self buffs and play the next fotm class.

But to be honest, I think it's not that bad that rangers can be a decent melee and insane bow damage with the help of self buffs, as well as hunters with their pet. I also believe the scout shield is a powerful weapon, mostly used to GTFO than anything else since melee means usually death for us, but which provides a higher survivability tool compared to other archers.

The only real problem I noticed with rangers are their volley damage : it completely changed the face of rvr since the day 1 of the archery change. I still remember the feeling when I realized volley went from an annoying nuisance to a deadly weapon in keep fights. And let's face it, although less powerful, scouts and hunters volley can also really affect a keep attempt especially on small enemy zergs.

So, if the devs are willing to rebalance and revitalize the siege warfare, I would suggest to modify only the volley ability in a very simple way, as it has been suggested several times in that post , make it a GTAOE ability : same range, same damage, same timer, same hit number (only one, not 5) but with 5 (or more) targets being hit at the same time, so that it looks more like a real GTAOE.
That way, volley will keep it's nuisance/interrupt and rp leeching ability, without being deadly AF. Yes, tons of archers assisting the same target could still be powerful, but as for the regular GTAOE, it would take some coordination and organization from the players.
Playing a scout, I would still be happy with that type of volley ability and as a caster, I would definitely feel I can be useful again in keep takes.

Edit : Oh. And btw, I noticed probably like any other archers thats the crit shot ability was working in a odd way. It's obvious we can crit shot people when they are fighting (when we are not supposed to, right?), although not all the time. It seems random, maybe something related to the lag or whatever.
Anyway, i think there might be something to look at since the crit shot is also a significant tool in rvr. Being able to use it so often gives a huge advantage to archers since they can pick their target, even more when they're adding a fight, and even more for rangers regarding their damage ability.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 6:01 AM by Valaraukar
Kikicorky96 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 5:47 AM
I tried to read carefully everything before replying.
My main is a theurgist but I play a 7L scout on a regular basis.

As for the main suggestion from the devs, if I may give an opinion, I don't believe in big changes to the current archery systems.
Yes, I am regularly frustrated when I get crit shot on my scout by a 950+ damage shot from a ranger, and yes, somehow, I would love to get self buffs and play the next fotm class.

But to be honest, I think it's not that bad that rangers can be a decent melee and insane bow damage with the help of self buffs, as well as hunters with their pet. I also believe the scout shield is a powerful weapon, mostly used to GTFO than anything else since melee means usually death for us, but which provides a higher survivability tool compared to other archers.

The only real problem I noticed with rangers are their volley damage : it completely changed the face of rvr since the day 1 of the archery change. I still remember the feeling when I realized volley went from an annoying nuisance to a deadly weapon in keep fights. And let's face it, although less powerful, scouts and hunters volley can also really affect a keep attempt especially on small enemy zergs.

So, if the devs are willing to rebalance and revitalize the siege warfare, I would suggest to modify only the volley ability in a very simple way, as it has been suggested several times in that post , make it a GTAOE ability : same range, same damage, same timer, same hit number (only one, not 5) but with 5 (or more) targets being hit at the same time, so that it looks more like a real GTAOE.
That way, volley will keep it's nuisance/interrupt and rp leeching ability, without being deadly AF. Yes, tons of archers assisting the same target could still be powerful, but as for the regular GTAOE, it would take some coordination and organization from the players.
Playing a scout, I would still be happy with that type of volley ability and as a caster, I would definitely feel I can be useful again in keep takes.

Edit : Oh. And btw, I noticed probably like any other archers thats the crit shot ability was working in a odd way. It's obvious we can crit shot people when they are fighting (when we are not supposed to, right?), although not all the time. It seems random, maybe something related to the lag or whatever.
Anyway, i think there might be something to look at since the crit shot is also a significant tool in rvr. Being able to use it so often gives a huge advantage to archers since they can pick their target, even more when they're adding a fight, and even more for rangers regarding their damage ability.


I like this solution, maybe lowering a bit the cost of Volley since 8rp are way too much for this "newer" version.

Still feel a bit uncomfortable to have it "nerfed" just because one class (and one realm) has taken so much advantage from archery change and now all archers should "suffer" from it, but what can I say.... that's Hib you know
Tue 25 Aug 2020 9:13 AM by imweasel
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 1:17 AM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 7:18 PM
Can we stop comparing archers to a group/zerg integral class like minstrels, skalds, clerics, etc. Thanks.

So it is your contention that as long as a toon is more "group friendly" it is acceptable to be OPed to the other realms' counterpart?
And although "population" seems to be the determining factor, it only applies to the ranger population? How many zergs run at speed 5 or 6? Maybe in alb because there are so many minstrels. Is that not more OP than a few rangers when hib has to run at hastener speed? I am comparing minstrels and clerics populations to bards and druids. Are they not equally group/zerg integral...yet a much higher population of the former?

There were 6 fewer hunters on earlier today than rangers. A 6 player difference is nothing. What is more dangerous, 6 extra rangers or 20 extra minstrels?

Could it be people that choose a hunter/ranger/scout/sb/ns/infilt/minstrel do so because they prefer a solo play style?
Could it be there are fewer scouts because albs have the minstrel option which is the top of population chart? Most choose realm 1st then a toon.

I prefer hib. I would have preferred to play a Nightshade but phoenix does not allow Celt nightshades so it pushed me to Ranger...if I had the minstrel option I would have chose that.

Now this may sound like a nerf minstrel rant. It is not. It is just illustrating the folly and simple-mindedness of using population as a nerf justification... and if you are going to do that, using it for other classes is just as valid.

On the topic of a Volley nerf...ok fine. A couple a ideas...the 1st is make Longshot a pre-requisite for Volley. The other is make rams consider "roofed" ie if you are operating a ram you can't get hit by volley.

This just goes to show the "dev team" isn't interested in balance. To them balance is more of a social experiment on how they can affect their "vision of the game".

They readily admit that balance is not their goal. No parity in spec lines and no parity in class usefulness. So just stop talking about balance. Surely that will make sense eventually, right?
Tue 25 Aug 2020 12:02 PM by gotwqqd
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 6:01 AM
Kikicorky96 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 5:47 AM
I tried to read carefully everything before replying.
My main is a theurgist but I play a 7L scout on a regular basis.

As for the main suggestion from the devs, if I may give an opinion, I don't believe in big changes to the current archery systems.
Yes, I am regularly frustrated when I get crit shot on my scout by a 950+ damage shot from a ranger, and yes, somehow, I would love to get self buffs and play the next fotm class.

But to be honest, I think it's not that bad that rangers can be a decent melee and insane bow damage with the help of self buffs, as well as hunters with their pet. I also believe the scout shield is a powerful weapon, mostly used to GTFO than anything else since melee means usually death for us, but which provides a higher survivability tool compared to other archers.

The only real problem I noticed with rangers are their volley damage : it completely changed the face of rvr since the day 1 of the archery change. I still remember the feeling when I realized volley went from an annoying nuisance to a deadly weapon in keep fights. And let's face it, although less powerful, scouts and hunters volley can also really affect a keep attempt especially on small enemy zergs.

So, if the devs are willing to rebalance and revitalize the siege warfare, I would suggest to modify only the volley ability in a very simple way, as it has been suggested several times in that post , make it a GTAOE ability : same range, same damage, same timer, same hit number (only one, not 5) but with 5 (or more) targets being hit at the same time, so that it looks more like a real GTAOE.
That way, volley will keep it's nuisance/interrupt and rp leeching ability, without being deadly AF. Yes, tons of archers assisting the same target could still be powerful, but as for the regular GTAOE, it would take some coordination and organization from the players.
Playing a scout, I would still be happy with that type of volley ability and as a caster, I would definitely feel I can be useful again in keep takes.

Edit : Oh. And btw, I noticed probably like any other archers thats the crit shot ability was working in a odd way. It's obvious we can crit shot people when they are fighting (when we are not supposed to, right?), although not all the time. It seems random, maybe something related to the lag or whatever.
Anyway, i think there might be something to look at since the crit shot is also a significant tool in rvr. Being able to use it so often gives a huge advantage to archers since they can pick their target, even more when they're adding a fight, and even more for rangers regarding their damage ability.


I like this solution, maybe lowering a bit the cost of Volley since 8rp are way too much for this "newer" version.

Still feel a bit uncomfortable to have it "nerfed" just because one class (and one realm) has taken so much advantage from archery change and now all archers should "suffer" from it, but what can I say.... that's Hib you know

Lower cost a bit?

How about maybe 3
Tue 25 Aug 2020 12:16 PM by Vkejai
The only issue I would agree to change is the range of volley . Dont think it should be the same as a catapult. I see no need to nerf anything else. The fact that theres loads of Rangers who can assist and are high RR is not their fault.

Maybe Albs should make more Scouts than Minstrels.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 12:38 PM by goten9033
Volley as far as I can remember really has not changed since the beginning of Daoc.

It seems like most are complaining because so many are using it and assisting .

Sounds like smart rangers to me .
Tue 25 Aug 2020 12:47 PM by Horus
goten9033 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 12:38 PM
Volley as far as I can remember really has not changed since the beginning of Daoc.

It seems like most are complaining because so many are using it and assisting .

Sounds like smart rangers to me .

I am pretty sure that at some point back in the day Longshot was a prerequ for Volley. It was a fairly large realm point investment...enough to deter many archers from getting it.

Right now it is the primary way for lower RR to milk RPs and relatively cheap. Maybe if you make it not so easy to acquire it will lower to motivation to roll an archer/ranger which seems to be the ultimate goal.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 1:10 PM by Dunga
Kikicorky96 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 5:47 AM
...
So, if the devs are willing to rebalance and revitalize the siege warfare, I would suggest to modify only the volley ability in a very simple way, as it has been suggested several times in that post , make it a GTAOE ability : same range, same damage, same timer, same hit number (only one, not 5) but with 5 (or more) targets being hit at the same time, so that it looks more like a real GTAOE.
That way, volley will keep it's nuisance/interrupt and rp leeching ability, without being deadly AF. Yes, tons of archers assisting the same target could still be powerful, but as for the regular GTAOE, it would take some coordination and organization from the players.
Playing a scout, I would still be happy with that type of volley ability and as a caster, I would definitely feel I can be useful again in keep takes.
...

i like this alot, and all 3 archeryclasses are hit equally.
I would also like to see that the damadd of the ranger does not go on the bow but works in close combat or is significantly lower. a charge can and should be used for the bow as like the other two.
the bottom line is that volley would do significantly less damage to someone-dont hit several times the same guy, archery stays usefull and if u are going full this way u will be still a rivet in melee, the damage from the ranger come closer to the other two and, above all, all three would remain unique and not be the same thing.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 1:27 PM by Cadebrennus
goten9033 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 12:38 PM
Volley as far as I can remember really has not changed since the beginning of Daoc.

It seems like most are complaining because so many are using it and assisting .

Sounds like smart rangers to me .

Basically yes. I've been trying to encourage Archers to assist each other with Volley for a decade and a half, and to be useful in sieges and to Visi groups. Now that it is actually occuring people are screaming nerf. The reason they're screaming nerf? Because they haven't bothered to find a counter to it, of which there are many, which I and many others have offered.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 1:38 PM by goten9033
In some ways this makes me think of a guild named Palodox . They would take out 70 mids or albs them selves defend or take the lord room 3 enchanters moc and blow them all up.

Should they be nerfed because they were able to do that ?
Tue 25 Aug 2020 1:49 PM by Cadebrennus
goten9033 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 1:38 PM
In some ways this makes me think of a guild named Palodox . They would take out 70 mids or albs them selves defend or take the lord room 3 enchanters moc and blow them all up.

Should they be nerfed because they were able to do that ?
.
.

.
.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 2:49 PM by Sabatasso79
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 12:16 PM
Maybe Albs should make more Scouts than Minstrels.

I agree with Ckejai, and ever more so.. I think I've already said in this thread, if Rangers, Scouts and Hunters (one or all of them) are an issue, how about looking at their direct counters? Shield users.

Why should people not be allowed to play their archers even if it interferes with how you want to play?
How is nerfing archers a better solution than forcing better class population balance in terms of forcing more people to play those shield users?
How come visible classes, particularly casters, somehow always seem to be a protected species in these types of discussions, not only here but on live and every other shard under the sun?

Stealthers is an issue to your playstyle? Adapt. The tools are in the game! No external fix needed.

EDIT: Casters generally interferes with how most non casters want to play & they are far too many active now compared to other classes. FYI! Shouldn't we nerf them with the very same argument posted by OP? Or does the 'protected' label stick as I stated?
Tue 25 Aug 2020 3:09 PM by gotwqqd
Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 2:49 PM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 12:16 PM
Maybe Albs should make more Scouts than Minstrels.

I agree with Ckejai, and ever more so.. I think I've already said in this thread, if Rangers, Scouts and Hunters (one or all of them) are an issue, how about looking at their direct counters? Shield users.

Why should people not be allowed to play their archers even if it interferes with how you want to play?
How is nerfing archers a better solution than forcing better class population balance in terms of forcing more people to play those shield users?
How come visible classes, particularly casters, somehow always seem to be a protected species in these types of discussions, not only here but on live and every other shard under the sun?

Stealthers is an issue to your playstyle? Adapt. The tools are in the game! No external fix needed.

EDIT: Casters generally interferes with how most non casters want to play & they are far too many active now compared to other classes. FYI! Shouldn't we nerf them with the very same argument posted by OP? Or does the 'protected' label stick as I stated?
You don’t need to protect casters more, depending on the class one or two archer(or assassins) likely can take down the caster reliably.
But when hard targets have no chance because you have 4+(I’ve seen as many as 11 archer/assassin jumped together there is an issue.
They are pretty much immune with what we have now.

See an eight man...back off . See 1-4 rape with impunity.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 3:49 PM by Lokkjim
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 12:16 PM
The only issue I would agree to change is the range of volley . Dont think it should be the same as a catapult. I see no need to nerf anything else. The fact that theres loads of Rangers who can assist and are high RR is not their fault.

Maybe Albs should make more Scouts than Minstrels.

This would still allow a catapult and volley to be used at the same time, albeit closer. If you can't see this as an issue I don't know what to tell you.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 4:25 PM by Sabatasso79
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 3:09 PM
See an eight man...back off . See 1-4 rape with impunity.

Why should they back off 8-mans? You need your playstyle protected? That argument works both ways.

I'm not playing ranger, so I'm not protecting 'my own'. The whole argument lacks logic, though. Rangers, archers and stealthers are attractive classes but they aren't immune unless the current fotm 8-man setup refuse to adapt. More hard targets, particularly shield users, render archery far less useful. So in a way, the amount of archers currently makes shield classes extra viable, unless of course you just want to avoid their viability by punishing archers, rendering (or keeping) them less attractive the naughty way. I see why some of you dread the idea of making your class possibly lose a group spot for a tank, or a shield user, but that's not worse than nefring archers.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 5:06 PM by DinoTriz
Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 4:25 PM
Why should they back off 8-mans? You need your playstyle protected? That argument works both ways.

I'm not playing ranger, so I'm not protecting 'my own'. The whole argument lacks logic, though. Rangers, archers and stealthers are attractive classes but they aren't immune unless the current fotm 8-man setup refuse to adapt. More hard targets, particularly shield users, render archery far less useful. So in a way, the amount of archers currently makes shield classes extra viable, unless of course you just want to avoid their viability by punishing archers, rendering (or keeping) them less attractive the naughty way. I see why some of you dread the idea of making your class possibly lose a group spot for a tank, or a shield user, but that's not worse than nefring archers.

As a mainly melee player, I stood up and started clapping to your comment.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 5:14 PM by gotwqqd
Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 4:25 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 3:09 PM
See an eight man...back off . See 1-4 rape with impunity.

Why should they back off 8-mans? You need your playstyle protected? That argument works both ways.

I'm not playing ranger, so I'm not protecting 'my own'. The whole argument lacks logic, though. Rangers, archers and stealthers are attractive classes but they aren't immune unless the current fotm 8-man setup refuse to adapt. More hard targets, particularly shield users, render archery far less useful. So in a way, the amount of archers currently makes shield classes extra viable, unless of course you just want to avoid their viability by punishing archers, rendering (or keeping) them less attractive the naughty way. I see why some of you dread the idea of making your class possibly lose a group spot for a tank, or a shield user, but that's not worse than nefring archers.
I’m saying the 7/8 stealthers will pass on attacking the 8man and wait for easy pickings

I want to see detrimental mechanics to stealth in high concentrations.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 5:20 PM by Sabatasso79
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 5:14 PM
I want to see detrimental mechanics to stealth in high concentrations.

Because you refuse to adapt and want your precious playstyle protected. Got it.

I don't see 8-mans or small mans leaving my lonely self alone for the most part. So that 'easy pickings' argument isn't an argument against stealthers.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 5:22 PM by Cipon
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 5:14 PM
I’m saying the 7/8 stealthers will pass on attacking the 8man and wait for easy pickings

I want to see detrimental mechanics to stealth in high concentrations.

Everyone try to avoid fights they can't win, stealthers are just better at that.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 8:25 PM by Tyrlaan
TBH just remove Volley. Archers are good enough without it. In siege they can assist each other from range and heights and kill the poor casters with their bows drawn in stealth. They get good single target damage now if bow specced. They don´t actually need a GTAE ability to AoE kill (including siege equipment - with arrows no less) from catapult range and outside LoS to work well in siege. Most melees don´t get AoE damage either (besides catapults) or - if hybrid - only as an RA on 10 or 15min RUTs.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 8:41 PM by goten9033
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 8:25 PM
TBH just remove Volley. Archers are good enough without it. In siege they can assist each other from range and heights and kill the poor casters with their bows drawn in stealth. They get good single target damage now if bow specced. They don´t actually need a GTAE ability to AoE kill (including siege equipment - with arrows no less) from catapult range and outside LoS to work well in siege. Most melees don´t get AoE damage either (besides catapults) or - if hybrid - only as an RA on 10 or 15min RUTs.

Shall we remove all other gtaoe to then? Casters don’t need it they can just single target assist
Tue 25 Aug 2020 8:53 PM by Sabatasso79
Lokkjim wrote:
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 9:14 PM
Albs and Mids might whine about volley but their archers don't use it. So the answer the devs give is to nerf it.

Every archer class has virtually the same RA choices, why nerf Hib because Albs and Mids* don't bother speccing it?

*at this point, who cares what mids do in RvR, if it's not camping a flag they aren't interested.

To be fair, albs and mids don't have 10-20 archers in every zerg like hib. Using the earlier /serverinfo we can see there are 49 rangers compared to 43 hunters and 28 scouts. Hunters could definitely help their BG and be a force if they wanted to in this case. But I think the number of hunters has gone up recently so they may need some time to integrate. Scouts, on the other hand, cut it up in thirds for playstyles, 9-10 solo, 9-10 grouped, 9-10 in the zerg.

I know people can play scouts if they wanted to sure, but at some point, you have to admit that rangers brought this on themselves. Almost always at the top of the chart and they aren't even a group integral class. I'm not saying there is something overpowered about the class, but in my mmo experience, when there are too many of a non-essential class, something usually happens to that class to change it somehow. Usually, it isn't good.

'Non essential'?

What about those who don't want to play whatever you deem 'group essential', like Berserkers, Thanes and what not? Maybe they rather want to play their stealthers than 1) LFG or 2) roll a fotm class.

Server members are essential. Your opinion is not.

EDIT: And yes, Alb and Mid archers could probably help out their zergs a bit more.

Also stated earlier in this thread; Use more shield classes. You know, those who are vastly underplayed at the moment... They are essential against archers.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 9:13 PM by Tyrlaan
goten9033 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 8:41 PM
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 8:25 PM
TBH just remove Volley. Archers are good enough without it. In siege they can assist each other from range and heights and kill the poor casters with their bows drawn in stealth. They get good single target damage now if bow specced. They don´t actually need a GTAE ability to AoE kill (including siege equipment - with arrows no less) from catapult range and outside LoS to work well in siege. Most melees don´t get AoE damage either (besides catapults) or - if hybrid - only as an RA on 10 or 15min RUTs.

Shall we remove all other gtaoe to then? Casters don’t need it they can just single target assist

Way to go toxic. Try arguments?

I wrote "remove Volley" (and nothing you made up) because archers in their current incarnation simply don´t need it to be good at siege. And it´s an ability that just gets used in siege and is very broken there.

I didn´t suggest removing other (more magical) ways to do GTAE damage. Casters don´t get the range (+ height bonuses), they can´t stealth, they can´t hold their spells to fire when somebody pops into LoS and they die much quicker than archers too. Why are you comparing archers to casters anyway? Archers can do so much in a siege (compared to say melee even if they can climb) already, they don´t need an extra dumbed-down ability to press every 15 seconds while hiding around a corner. Try clicking people and shooting arrows?
Tue 25 Aug 2020 9:29 PM by Siouxsie
Just remove volley from rangers.
As a hunter, if you pop your head up over/between the parapets, you get debuff/stun/nuked/nuked from the hib mouthbreather caster assist train.
Same as scout, I'd guess.

The lvl 45 scout shield root needs to go. Give them the same snares other classes get. Hunter gets 60% snare for 14 seconds, that's plenty.
Moving skill points around would be a complete disaster.

If you can't remove volley from rangers, then consider capping lurikeen dex to a lower value so they don't hit as hard with bow, or decrease the delve for the damage add buff.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 9:43 PM by Sabatasso79
If Volley goes, then volley goes for all archers. As you said, there's no need for them to be that good at siege warfare. If you single out Rangers and penalize them for using the same ability other archer classes have access to, then it becomes a farse.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 11:27 PM by Lokkjim
Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 8:53 PM
'Non essential'?

What about those who don't want to play whatever you deem 'group essential', like Berserkers, Thanes and what not? Maybe they rather want to play their stealthers than 1) LFG or 2) roll a fotm class.

Server members are essential. Your opinion is not.

EDIT: And yes, Alb and Mid archers could probably help out their zergs a bit more.

Also stated earlier in this thread; Use more shield classes. You know, those who are vastly underplayed at the moment... They are essential against archers.

I'm telling everyone what my personal experience with MMOs has been. If you don't want to listen to my personal experience that's your prerogative.

Secondly, my statement was saying that group-essential classes are going to naturally have more people playing them. Take the minstrel for example, the minstrel can solo or group well. So that one class has multiple options for multiple styles of play, be that solo, small-man, 8-man, or zerg. Stealthers CAN do the same, but they are requested far less because they usually bring less utility to a group.

Maybe I could use a different term besides group-essential. So here you go, stealthers have less utility in a group situation so they are requested less often than a class with higher group utility. The higher utility class is naturally going to have more people playing it.

Now back to the thread: Using more shield classes doesn't help much in a keep battle situation. Usually, the shield bearers are on the ram and don't have the option to protect those getting hit by arrows. At this point, the argument goes back to having more AoE. Personally, I would like less AoE in a battle because that leaves more room for more creative methods of combat.

As stated by Flup in the earth wizards thread: If there would be as many earth wizards as rangers, alb would hold all towers and keeps.
Gtaoe from dozens of wizards would make any defense impossible.

I share this viewpoint as it seems that keep battles rely on who has more AoE. So we could counter the amount of AoE with climbers, but the distance of volley is too high. You can be on the inside keep just volleying while the enemy BG is on the outside door. This also takes away from the number of people on a ram, which allows more time for reinforcements and probably more AoE to deal with.

To summarize, we should decrease the distance of volley at the very least. I also think the damage should be decreased if the cooldown remains the same. If the cooldown is increased to 3 minutes (too high IMO, maybe 90-120 seconds), the archers can keep the damage. As for archer damage, I support their damage in a solo situation, but in a group situation, I believe they should have a higher chance to miss when attacking the same target as this current state of the game seems to suggest that the best option for archers is to group up, which most people are against stealth groups. Or vastly increase the penalty to stealth (same realm stealthers in an area or grouped) so that even small mans and 8-mans can see them.
Wed 26 Aug 2020 1:17 AM by Sabatasso79
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 11:27 PM
Now back to the thread: Using more shield classes doesn't help much in a keep battle situation. Usually, the shield bearers are on the ram and don't have the option to protect those getting hit by arrows.

That's a choice.

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 11:27 PM
At this point, the argument goes back to having more AoE. Personally, I would like less AoE in a battle because that leaves more room for more creative methods of combat.

Agreed.
Wed 26 Aug 2020 9:08 AM by Dunga
i think the most of us have to read the goal from gruenesschaf again....

The goal of these changes is to reduce the ranger population and while at it also to reduce the general effect of archers in siege fights

1. Volley: longer cooldown or Damage set to a flat value not scaling with other archery stuff -> if i have to choose, i would go with the flat value. i dont see a point to take these ra with a long cooldown. i would like to see the gtaoe idee which has already been discussed several times.

2. bring the ranger in line, in terms of damage, with hunter and above all the scout: nerv ranger damage or buff scout ( selfbuffs,....read first post what that means). -> i realy realy dont like that at the end all are equal. scout have shild, ranger self buffs and cd, hunter pet and selfbuffs. so, for me, the damage should be viewed by the ranger and i think it need not much to come closer->reduce/delete the damadd for bow use.
If the scout is still clearly behind, I could imagine that the stats-ras for the scout would scale better, aug dex then starts e.g. with 8 ...


it doesn't mess everything up or everything has to be completely reconsidered, and yet something is done about volley and the higher damage from the ranger...
Wed 26 Aug 2020 12:09 PM by Sabatasso79
If they outright harm Rangers 'just because' then some will move on to other classes, some will quit and some will remain playing Ranger. This server really can't afford making changes that makes people quit. It's dangerously low in population as it is.

I wonder why on earth 'buff Scouts' suddenly became a part of the solution to reduce Ranger population. Where's the logic? This is a very weird and sinister thread.

EDIT: It's still baffling that people still refuse to see that shield users are the solution to the ranger/archer problem. Certain people seem hell bent on nerfing rather than using the utility within the game to sort out their issues. That's just stupidity, no offense.
Wed 26 Aug 2020 12:40 PM by Cadebrennus
Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 12:09 PM
If they outright harm Rangers 'just because' then some will move on to other classes, some will quit and some will remain playing Ranger. This server really can't afford making changes that makes people quit. It's dangerously low in population as it is.

I wonder why on earth 'buff Scouts' suddenly became a part of the solution to reduce Ranger population. Where's the logic? This is a very weird and sinister thread.

EDIT: It's still baffling that people still refuse to see that shield users are the solution to the ranger/archer problem. Certain people seem hell bent on nerfing rather than using the utility within the game to sort out their issues. That's just stupidity, no offense.

Exactly this. People want to be spoon fed their victories instead of using existing tools in the game to achieve their victories.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: running around with a speccable shield on a tank class and an unspecced shield on a non-tank class I've yet to be killed by a single Archer in any situation or multiple Archers from Volley.

If your class can't spec Shield then get your group's tank to block for you. There's a reason that Guard exists. If you die from an Archer and there's a Shield Tank in your group blame yourself and the stupid Tank who didn't do his job; don't blame the Archer.
Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:07 PM by Lokkjim
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 12:40 PM
Exactly this. People want to be spoon fed their victories instead of using existing tools in the game to achieve their victories.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: running around with a speccable shield on a tank class and an unspecced shield on a non-tank class I've yet to be killed by a single Archer in any situation or multiple Archers from Volley.

If your class can't spec Shield then get your group's tank to block for you. There's a reason that Guard exists. If you die from an Archer and there's a Shield Tank in your group blame yourself and the stupid Tank who didn't do his job; don't blame the Archer.

It's funny how that changed from 2 archers to one archer. So I guess you've been killed by a duo of archers now. Herein lies a problem. Archers are grouping more and more often and the groups keep getting bigger. For instance, outside of crim, there was a group of 4 rangers and 1 NS. Another instance, dun crauchon west bridge, 5 rangers. And another 3 scouts and 2 infs at beno docks.

Now I understand these are high traffic areas that you should avoid, which I usually do. But when these stealth groups can avoid visible groups easily, that leaves it up to another stealth group to take them out. This just adds to the number of stealth groups going around and no one wants that.

I think reducing the amount of damage a GROUP OF ARCHERS can do to a single target would go a long way towards reducing the number of stealth groups. Now I'm not suggesting that we should decrease their damage, but increase their miss rate when 2 or more archers are attacking the same target. Potentially, increasing the miss rate when the target is in melee combat with another enemy as well.

Stealth groups would only have to coordinate their targets to maximize damage in a group vs group situation. Solo archers keep their damage output while groups have to work together.

Another suggestion would be to increase the stealth detection range of same realm stealthers in an area beyond what it already is. Yes, I've been working on adapting to the range to notice if the stealther is in a group or not, but this is countered with proper spacing which an archer can do because they have 2000+ range.
Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:50 PM by Cadebrennus
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:07 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 12:40 PM
Exactly this. People want to be spoon fed their victories instead of using existing tools in the game to achieve their victories.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: running around with a speccable shield on a tank class and an unspecced shield on a non-tank class I've yet to be killed by a single Archer in any situation or multiple Archers from Volley.

If your class can't spec Shield then get your group's tank to block for you. There's a reason that Guard exists. If you die from an Archer and there's a Shield Tank in your group blame yourself and the stupid Tank who didn't do his job; don't blame the Archer.

It's funny how that changed from 2 archers to one archer. So I guess you've been killed by a duo of archers now. Herein lies a problem. Archers are grouping more and more often and the groups keep getting bigger. For instance, outside of crim, there was a group of 4 rangers and 1 NS. Another instance, dun crauchon west bridge, 5 rangers. And another 3 scouts and 2 infs at beno docks.

Now I understand these are high traffic areas that you should avoid, which I usually do. But when these stealth groups can avoid visible groups easily, that leaves it up to another stealth group to take them out. This just adds to the number of stealth groups going around and no one wants that.

I think reducing the amount of damage a GROUP OF ARCHERS can do to a single target would go a long way towards reducing the number of stealth groups. Now I'm not suggesting that we should decrease their damage, but increase their miss rate when 2 or more archers are attacking the same target. Potentially, increasing the miss rate when the target is in melee combat with another enemy as well.

Stealth groups would only have to coordinate their targets to maximize damage in a group vs group situation. Solo archers keep their damage output while groups have to work together.

Another suggestion would be to increase the stealth detection range of same realm stealthers in an area beyond what it already is. Yes, I've been working on adapting to the range to notice if the stealther is in a group or not, but this is countered with proper spacing which an archer can do because they have 2000+ range.

I haven't died to 2 Archers either but I appreciate you checking and re-checking my posts like an obsessed fan. It makes me feel loved! lol

Invite Stealthers to your Visi group in order to flush them out. If you're too elitist to do that then that is your problem.
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:04 PM by Lokkjim
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:50 PM
I haven't died to 2 Archers either but I appreciate you checking and re-checking my posts like an obsessed fan. It makes me feel loved! lol

Invite Stealthers to your Visi group in order to flush them out. If you're too elitist to do that then that is your problem.

I'm glad I could flatter you, but the truth is, I just have a good memory.

The truth about visible groups is they more often than not won't take the time to search out a stealth group. I've suggested making another task for stealth kills but I think that was forgotten. So visible groups just go hunting for other visible players because it's quicker than searching for a stealth group that can be spaced apart or potentially vanish away. But hey, if everyone is fine with stealth groups, I guess we can just let Phoenix decide how to handle archers.
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:17 PM by Tyrlaan
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 12:40 PM
If your class can't spec Shield then get your group's tank to block for you. There's a reason that Guard exists. If you die from an Archer and there's a Shield Tank in your group blame yourself and the stupid Tank who didn't do his job; don't blame the Archer.

It is absolutely not realistic to expect every group to run 4 shield tanks just to stand next to their casters and healers (who, while usually trying to hug a wall and stay outta LoS, are a high value target for placing a GTAE to assist Volley on) because they could be (Volley) assisted down. And who would operate the ram then or climb into a keep?
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:30 PM by Lokkjim
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:17 PM
It is absolutely not realistic to expect every group to run 4 shield tanks just to stand next to their casters and healers (who, while usually trying to hug a wall and stay outta LoS, are a high value target for placing a GTAE to assist Volley on) because they could be (Volley) assisted down. And who would operate the ram then or climb into a keep?

I agree, but according to Sabatasso, this is a choice. So if we choose to shield our groupmates that leaves speed classes to run the ram. I don't even know what hib would do since the bard can heal, maybe casters will be in the ram.
Wed 26 Aug 2020 5:22 PM by Sabatasso79
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:07 PM
I think reducing the amount of damage a GROUP OF ARCHERS can do to a single target would go a long way towards reducing the number of stealth groups. Now I'm not suggesting that we should decrease their damage, but increase their miss rate when 2 or more archers are attacking the same target. Potentially, increasing the miss rate when the target is in melee combat with another enemy as well.

Great idea. Just don't stop at archers, increase missrate on ANYONE who uses assists. That's only fair... why should archers get penalized just because they can avoid fights more easily than others? It's not like they're invisible while shooting.

EDIT I should perhaps mention that I was being sarcastic in parts of this post. You figure out which part...

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:30 PM
I agree, but according to Sabatasso, this is a choice. So if we choose to shield our groupmates that leaves speed classes to run the ram. I don't even know what hib would do since the bard can heal, maybe casters will be in the ram.

Of course it's a choice. Like all other games in the genre, DAoC is a sophisticated rock, paper & scissors game. Unless the devs have massively effed things up***, there is a anti strategy to every strategy. At least when Mythic was in charge. So the idea isn't that every shield user has to do this or that, and every speed user has to do this or that. Some do this, others do that. Syncronize, strategize and execute.

Also, when the opposition is doing something you struggle with handling properly, do you try to adapt by trying different strategies or do you whine to the devs about nerfs? I'll accept the latter as a decent solution only after everything else has been tried. Until everything has been tried, including different group set-ups, every whine for a nerf is actually rude and inconsiderate.

I am saying this as a non ranger, currently playing Hunter, having considered and scrapped the idea of Warden and possibly moving to Alb to find an interesting class. So I have zero motivation to save Rangers from nerf aside from using my head a little bit and not being selfish and rude towards those who play Rangers.

EDIT: *** I still think that the game balance has been massively messed up by poorly thought through changes on this server, and now we're reaping the results of stupid mistakes. Adding another stupid mistake on top won't make it better.

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:04 PM
The truth about visible groups is they more often than not won't take the time to search out a stealth group.

That is another choice. So we're back to people want Ranger nerf because they aren't willing to do anything ingame to handle the situation. It's 'bothersome' when the status quo is broken, and they want external help to bring things back in 'proper' order.

Pathetic.

Final edit on this post; What this server needs is group set-up diversity and creative minds who wants to think outside a 15 year old box in order to find new, creative & functioning strategies within the game.
Wed 26 Aug 2020 7:11 PM by Lokkjim
Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 5:22 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:07 PM
I think reducing the amount of damage a GROUP OF ARCHERS can do to a single target would go a long way towards reducing the number of stealth groups. Now I'm not suggesting that we should decrease their damage, but increase their miss rate when 2 or more archers are attacking the same target. Potentially, increasing the miss rate when the target is in melee combat with another enemy as well.

Great idea. Just don't stop at archers, increase missrate on ANYONE who uses assists. That's only fair... why should archers get penalized just because they can avoid fights more easily than others? It's not like they're invisible while shooting.

EDIT I should perhaps mention that I was being sarcastic in parts of this post. You figure out which part...

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:30 PM
I agree, but according to Sabatasso, this is a choice. So if we choose to shield our groupmates that leaves speed classes to run the ram. I don't even know what hib would do since the bard can heal, maybe casters will be in the ram.

Of course it's a choice. Like all other games in the genre, DAoC is a sophisticated rock, paper & scissors game. Unless the devs have massively effed things up***, there is a anti strategy to every strategy. At least when Mythic was in charge. So the idea isn't that every shield user has to do this or that, and every speed user has to do this or that. Some do this, others do that. Syncronize, strategize and execute.

Also, when the opposition is doing something you struggle with handling properly, do you try to adapt by trying different strategies or do you whine to the devs about nerfs? I'll accept the latter as a decent solution only after everything else has been tried. Until everything has been tried, including different group set-ups, every whine for a nerf is actually rude and inconsiderate.

I am saying this as a non ranger, currently playing Hunter, having considered and scrapped the idea of Warden and possibly moving to Alb to find an interesting class. So I have zero motivation to save Rangers from nerf aside from using my head a little bit and not being selfish and rude towards those who play Rangers.

EDIT: *** I still think that the game balance has been massively messed up by poorly thought through changes on this server, and now we're reaping the results of stupid mistakes. Adding another stupid mistake on top won't make it better.

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:04 PM
The truth about visible groups is they more often than not won't take the time to search out a stealth group.

That is another choice. So we're back to people want Ranger nerf because they aren't willing to do anything ingame to handle the situation. It's 'bothersome' when the status quo is broken, and they want external help to bring things back in 'proper' order.

Pathetic.

Final edit on this post; What this server needs is group set-up diversity and creative minds who wants to think outside a 15 year old box in order to find new, creative & functioning strategies within the game.

I like how you take small parts from my post and suggest that I'm trying to nerf rangers only. Even though you quoted the part where I said "archers." I put archers in my post and then as a second option I put increasing the stealth detection range which affects all stealthers.

Why should archers get penalized? They do more damage than a caster who has to debuff. They do this with a normal shot. They do this at a range further than a caster. They have stealth to choose their targets. They have escape tools. They have self-healing to keep them in the fight. All of this practically encourages stealth groups because you almost eliminate all the risks from going full bow. Maybe suggest a change instead of just saying why an option won't work or to use the tools we already have, Phoenix has already decided to nerf rangers/archery, your input isn't helping the outcome.

DAOC is a sophisticated rock, paper, scissors game, but we're doing nothing to decrease the amount of AoE and just saying shield bearers should protect, instead of climb walls, or operate a ram. Sure it's a choice, but where does it get you? You have fewer people on a ram or climbing while you're attacking to protect someone, who you can only protect from volley. Even if the shield bearer could block 100% of the arrows from volley, they are still getting hit by other AoEs, and have only extended the time their groupmate will survive. In helping the groupmate survive, it takes longer to take the keep, which exposes you to more reinforcements and more AoE. Maybe there is something I'm missing and you can help explain it, but I don't see a good reason to guard someone against volley.
Wed 26 Aug 2020 7:18 PM by Sabatasso79
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 7:11 PM
I like how you take small parts from my post and suggest that I'm trying to nerf rangers only.

It was not my intention to pretend you just wanted to nerf rangers. There are, however, more people than you and me in this thread.

I'm personally not against changing Volley for everyone. In fact, I want to look at AoE damage as a whole, because it's a very daft tactic that brings far too much power to a few classes and makes a lot of other classes obsolete. In my opinion it should mainly be a tool to make people in an area suffer if they don't move. As it is now, AoE is THE kill strategy. In order to be truly powerful, AoE should only be truly deadly if there are a huge amount assisting or if people are forcibly being kept in the AoE damage.

There is an issue with there being mainly one way into a castle, which makes AoE very effective in keep fights, even if toned down.

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 7:11 PM
DAOC is a sophisticated rock, paper, scissors game, but we're doing nothing to decrease the amount of AoE and just saying shield bearers should protect, instead of climb walls, or operate a ram. Sure it's a choice, but where does it get you? You have fewer people on a ram or climbing while you're attacking to protect someone, who you can only protect from volley. Even if the shield bearer could block 100% of the arrows from volley, they are still getting hit by other AoEs, and have only extended the time their groupmate will survive. In helping the groupmate survive, it takes longer to take the keep, which exposes you to more reinforcements and more AoE. Maybe there is something I'm missing and you can help explain it, but I don't see a good reason to guard someone against volley.

Well, shield classes are somewhat out of fashion and are barely more used in the field than light tanks at the moment. So ignoring the fact that they are underplayed at the moment, which favors archers, is counter productive. At least archer AoE has some sort of functional counter in the game, even if it's under used. What about caster AoE? What's the working strategy against it aside from moving away? Is there a ground targeted AoE nearshight? Not that I'm aware of.
Wed 26 Aug 2020 9:41 PM by Cadebrennus
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:04 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:50 PM
I haven't died to 2 Archers either but I appreciate you checking and re-checking my posts like an obsessed fan. It makes me feel loved! lol

Invite Stealthers to your Visi group in order to flush them out. If you're too elitist to do that then that is your problem.

I'm glad I could flatter you, but the truth is, I just have a good memory.

The truth about visible groups is they more often than not won't take the time to search out a stealth group. I've suggested making another task for stealth kills but I think that was forgotten. So visible groups just go hunting for other visible players because it's quicker than searching for a stealth group that can be spaced apart or potentially vanish away. But hey, if everyone is fine with stealth groups, I guess we can just let Phoenix decide how to handle archers.

I think that's a great idea to make a task for stealther kills, but more like "kill X amount of Stealthers in Y time" (which would encourage hunting down stealth zergs but not give anything for zerging down solo Stealthers.)

I've always been opposed to stealth zergs but the problem here on Phoenix is that it's far more difficult to hunt them down here than on Live.
Thu 27 Aug 2020 3:06 AM by gotwqqd
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 7:11 PM
Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 5:22 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:07 PM
I think reducing the amount of damage a GROUP OF ARCHERS can do to a single target would go a long way towards reducing the number of stealth groups. Now I'm not suggesting that we should decrease their damage, but increase their miss rate when 2 or more archers are attacking the same target. Potentially, increasing the miss rate when the target is in melee combat with another enemy as well.

Great idea. Just don't stop at archers, increase missrate on ANYONE who uses assists. That's only fair... why should archers get penalized just because they can avoid fights more easily than others? It's not like they're invisible while shooting.

EDIT I should perhaps mention that I was being sarcastic in parts of this post. You figure out which part...

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:30 PM
I agree, but according to Sabatasso, this is a choice. So if we choose to shield our groupmates that leaves speed classes to run the ram. I don't even know what hib would do since the bard can heal, maybe casters will be in the ram.

Of course it's a choice. Like all other games in the genre, DAoC is a sophisticated rock, paper & scissors game. Unless the devs have massively effed things up***, there is a anti strategy to every strategy. At least when Mythic was in charge. So the idea isn't that every shield user has to do this or that, and every speed user has to do this or that. Some do this, others do that. Syncronize, strategize and execute.

Also, when the opposition is doing something you struggle with handling properly, do you try to adapt by trying different strategies or do you whine to the devs about nerfs? I'll accept the latter as a decent solution only after everything else has been tried. Until everything has been tried, including different group set-ups, every whine for a nerf is actually rude and inconsiderate.

I am saying this as a non ranger, currently playing Hunter, having considered and scrapped the idea of Warden and possibly moving to Alb to find an interesting class. So I have zero motivation to save Rangers from nerf aside from using my head a little bit and not being selfish and rude towards those who play Rangers.

EDIT: *** I still think that the game balance has been massively messed up by poorly thought through changes on this server, and now we're reaping the results of stupid mistakes. Adding another stupid mistake on top won't make it better.

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:04 PM
The truth about visible groups is they more often than not won't take the time to search out a stealth group.

That is another choice. So we're back to people want Ranger nerf because they aren't willing to do anything ingame to handle the situation. It's 'bothersome' when the status quo is broken, and they want external help to bring things back in 'proper' order.

Pathetic.

Final edit on this post; What this server needs is group set-up diversity and creative minds who wants to think outside a 15 year old box in order to find new, creative & functioning strategies within the game.

I like how you take small parts from my post and suggest that I'm trying to nerf rangers only. Even though you quoted the part where I said "archers." I put archers in my post and then as a second option I put increasing the stealth detection range which affects all stealthers.

Why should archers get penalized? They do more damage than a caster who has to debuff. They do this with a normal shot. They do this at a range further than a caster. They have stealth to choose their targets. They have escape tools. They have self-healing to keep them in the fight. All of this practically encourages stealth groups because you almost eliminate all the risks from going full bow. Maybe suggest a change instead of just saying why an option won't work or to use the tools we already have, Phoenix has already decided to nerf rangers/archery, your input isn't helping the outcome.

DAOC is a sophisticated rock, paper, scissors game, but we're doing nothing to decrease the amount of AoE and just saying shield bearers should protect, instead of climb walls, or operate a ram. Sure it's a choice, but where does it get you? You have fewer people on a ram or climbing while you're attacking to protect someone, who you can only protect from volley. Even if the shield bearer could block 100% of the arrows from volley, they are still getting hit by other AoEs, and have only extended the time their groupmate will survive. In helping the groupmate survive, it takes longer to take the keep, which exposes you to more reinforcements and more AoE. Maybe there is something I'm missing and you can help explain it, but I don't see a good reason to guard someone against volley.
Stop comparing damage of 509 to 400 and say it’s more without context.

Casters will likely get twice the number of casts in same time as archery
Thu 27 Aug 2020 6:41 AM by Sepplord
Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 5:22 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:04 PM
The truth about visible groups is they more often than not won't take the time to search out a stealth group.
That is another choice.
Not really, because there is no way to reliably search out a stealthgroup unless they majorly mess up. You like to talk about counters, but there is no good counter to stealth. To have any chance of countering stealth, you already need to know where someone is stealthed, and even then it is a shitshow to find them.

Even if they are really stupid and camping a single area without moving and you go there with multiple stealthpots pre-potted out of sight, they can easily scatter, jump from bridge etc. and you will get 1-2 while the rest gets away.

Do that more than once, and they will know your names and simply move before you are even close. The next best strategy is then to send random-bait solos into the area and run in when they get attacked, which results in similar success as above and feeds the stealthgroup a victim half of the time.


DAoC always had an issue with stealth being too close to invisibility than stealth, and on this freeshard the counters to it have been removed and replaced with a really shitty detection-potion.
Thu 27 Aug 2020 10:08 AM by Cadebrennus
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Aug 2020 6:41 AM
Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 5:22 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:04 PM
The truth about visible groups is they more often than not won't take the time to search out a stealth group.
That is another choice.
Not really, because there is no way to reliably search out a stealthgroup unless they majorly mess up. You like to talk about counters, but there is no good counter to stealth. To have any chance of countering stealth, you already need to know where someone is stealthed, and even then it is a shitshow to find them.

Even if they are really stupid and camping a single area without moving and you go there with multiple stealthpots pre-potted out of sight, they can easily scatter, jump from bridge etc. and you will get 1-2 while the rest gets away.

Do that more than once, and they will know your names and simply move before you are even close. The next best strategy is then to send random-bait solos into the area and run in when they get attacked, which results in similar success as above and feeds the stealthgroup a victim half of the time.


DAoC always had an issue with stealth being too close to invisibility than stealth, and on this freeshard the counters to it have been removed and replaced with a really shitty detection-potion.

Agreed, with the caveat that it is too hard to detect stealth HERE on Phoenix. As much as I dislike Live, they have something we do not, which is MoS as an RA. That alone helps with stealth-zerg busting. While I detest ToA, I think anti-stealth nodes are a great idea, but only if usable by those who hunt Stealthers (like Tanks), not those who are hunted by Stealthers (Casters or Archers, which is why I think Truesight is dumb).
Thu 27 Aug 2020 10:39 AM by Stoertebecker
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Aug 2020 6:41 AM
DAoC always had an issue with stealth being too close to invisibility than stealth, and on this freeshard the counters to it have been removed and replaced with a really shitty detection-potion.

They could make this potion not working on stealth classes, double/tripple the timer and range.
Thu 27 Aug 2020 10:53 AM by gotwqqd
Have couple classes per realm have beacon you drop down(visible)
And reveals shade
Thu 27 Aug 2020 10:53 AM by Lev
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:06 AM
In case it wasn't clear, feel free to provide alternatives.

There are no strong feelings about the kind of solution, the only thing that matters in this case in the aforementioned goals: reduction in ranger population and generally reducing the effects of archers on sieges although the latter is likely best achieved via a longer volley cd.

1. revert archer dmg changes
2. remove penetrating the self bubbles
3. increase volley cooldown
4. hunter and ranger get faster bows (maybe both 5.0), scout slowest (as now)
(5. maybe think about the root style from scout)

simple fixes
why redo a whole set of classes completely, including removing whole spec lines and adjustment of spec points, etc.
Thu 27 Aug 2020 11:11 AM by Forlornhope
Lev wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Aug 2020 10:53 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:06 AM
In case it wasn't clear, feel free to provide alternatives.

There are no strong feelings about the kind of solution, the only thing that matters in this case in the aforementioned goals: reduction in ranger population and generally reducing the effects of archers on sieges although the latter is likely best achieved via a longer volley cd.

1. revert archer dmg changes
2. remove penetrating the self bubbles
3. increase volley cooldown
4. hunter and ranger get faster bows (maybe both 5.0), scout slowest (as now)
(5. maybe think about the root style from scout)

simple fixes
why redo a whole set of classes completely, including removing whole spec lines and adjustment of spec points, etc.

I agree with all your points except the penetrating arrow and self blade turns. If they were only able to penetrate bubbles casted on others the skill might as well just be removed. As it is now, it's already better to open up on a caster with either a standard or long shot to pop the bubble then crit shot them. Hunters are also already at the 5.0 bow speed as their fastest bows as well, which I think is fine on my hunter.
Thu 27 Aug 2020 11:39 AM by Dunga
Lev wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Aug 2020 10:53 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:06 AM
In case it wasn't clear, feel free to provide alternatives.

There are no strong feelings about the kind of solution, the only thing that matters in this case in the aforementioned goals: reduction in ranger population and generally reducing the effects of archers on sieges although the latter is likely best achieved via a longer volley cd.

1. revert archer dmg changes
2. remove penetrating the self bubbles
3. increase volley cooldown
4. hunter and ranger get faster bows (maybe both 5.0), scout slowest (as now)
(5. maybe think about the root style from scout)

simple fixes
why redo a whole set of classes completely, including removing whole spec lines and adjustment of spec points, etc.

6. think about to delete all archery classes and in generel stealth.


I can only shake my head with some of the comments. Take back all changes, make the ras useless, make bow damage pointless again, they are never allowed to play in groups, I can't see them and that's an absolute nogo, ... I want easy 1vs x, no vanish, no arrow from anywhere , no nothing. You can die and donate rps, nothing else is allowed.
Thu 27 Aug 2020 4:49 PM by Sabatasso79
DAoC has been 'blessed' with these "I want to solo my Merc!"- players since beta. I suggest they go play Tekken. MMO's simply aren't made for them.

Additionally, the reason why almost every stealther is near invisible is simply because you have to spec at least 35 on an archer to feel 'safe' (I don't, but most do) because Mastery of Stealth is put in the Stealth spec-line rather than an RA. So almost nobody has 'adequate' stealth and use their spec points elsewhere, which makes them harder to find for everyone.

If any anti stealth measures should be implemented, it should only work without any speed effects and only be given to classes that needs 'something extra' to make them a bit attractive for groups. Light tanks, for example. The ability should have a fairly long cooldown so the group aren't able to whisp from area to area and clean the place, but must work with information and use the ability smartly. This ensures that 1) An underplayed class gets a new purpose, 2) Anti-stealth groups has to sacrifice something and not jsut tear through the frontier slaying every stealther in their sight. They can, however, get information on a particularly nasty stealth zerg and cause a lot of trouble, spreading the zerg out and thinning them out.

Regarding the volley-discussion, if it is objectively OP then maybe reduce the amount of arrows from 5 to 3, for example. But I honestly don't see why archers shouldn't keep their inferior GTAOE when there are far more casters who do vastly more GTAOE damage in addition to everything else they bring to the table. The amount of casters are most likely THE main reason why light tanks are underplayed at the moment.

It could be an idea to put Volley as an ability at, for example 40 Archery spec, to make it a focused archer ability instead of having every melee ranger/hunter in the field being able to as well.

Scouts in DAoC has always been a one trick pony, as they should be. They have their 6.0 speed bows and insane crit shots backed up by their 50 Archery spec, 42 shield for slam and divide the rest of the points in stealth and a weapon. It has always taken a smart player to play scouts well, as it should. They should have to be careful, move where it's smart for a sniper to move to further their strengths and not expose their weakness. If they have all that, has the insane critshot, slam and even got babied with an insane snare, they are fine. Scout isn't for everyone, has never been and should never be. Unless that new, 'smart' root costs same amount of stamina that Slam does, the intended balance of the archers are already upset by it, as they now can slam the hunter, root the pet and critshot the hunter. When you have to slam twice, sprint away and turn around for a few shots the stamina bar is normally getting quite empty. You could pop a regen, of course, so maybe the balance was upset already. But it just goes to show that giving classes abilities they never had under Mythic's supervision is not something that should be done frivilously.
Thu 27 Aug 2020 10:31 PM by Lokkjim
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Aug 2020 3:06 AM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 7:11 PM
I like how you take small parts from my post and suggest that I'm trying to nerf rangers only. Even though you quoted the part where I said "archers." I put archers in my post and then as a second option I put increasing the stealth detection range which affects all stealthers.

Why should archers get penalized? They do more damage than a caster who has to debuff. They do this with a normal shot. They do this at a range further than a caster. They have stealth to choose their targets. They have escape tools. They have self-healing to keep them in the fight. All of this practically encourages stealth groups because you almost eliminate all the risks from going full bow. Maybe suggest a change instead of just saying why an option won't work or to use the tools we already have, Phoenix has already decided to nerf rangers/archery, your input isn't helping the outcome.

DAOC is a sophisticated rock, paper, scissors game, but we're doing nothing to decrease the amount of AoE and just saying shield bearers should protect, instead of climb walls, or operate a ram. Sure it's a choice, but where does it get you? You have fewer people on a ram or climbing while you're attacking to protect someone, who you can only protect from volley. Even if the shield bearer could block 100% of the arrows from volley, they are still getting hit by other AoEs, and have only extended the time their groupmate will survive. In helping the groupmate survive, it takes longer to take the keep, which exposes you to more reinforcements and more AoE. Maybe there is something I'm missing and you can help explain it, but I don't see a good reason to guard someone against volley.
Stop comparing damage of 509 to 400 and say it’s more without context.

Casters will likely get twice the number of casts in same time as archery

Alright, let me add a little more context for you. The full bow archer starts the fight with a crit shot for 750~ damage at 2000 range as that is most often when they are revealed. They then proceed to normal shot for 400~ damage while the target is running towards them. Now the target is at 1500 range and the Ranger has done 1150~ damage and the caster can now attack since they are in range. Do I need to add in the fact that a caster still has to debuff the target before they can do damage and it only has an 8-second duration? Sure, a caster will EVENTUALLY overtake an archer in damage, but by the time they do, squishies are definitely dead, light tanks are dead, tanks might still be alive for archer.

Now, this did ignore the fact that there are shields in the game, but it also ignored interrupts and any form of CC from the caster. Again, I'm perfectly fine with the damage an archer can do in a solo situation. But they have very little risk in a group situation (yes groups reduce risk, but they shouldn't damn near eliminate it) when they can be out of interrupt range, heal themselves, choose their fights, switch damage types, and have escape tools.

Side note: Scouts don't get a 6.0 bow, 5.5 is slowest.
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:22 AM by Messerjockel
Hi,

I am playing my ranger 100% solo, for clarification, not grouped ever for 2 or more month.
How are all those proposed changes affect me to stay competitive?

Flup, hib
Fri 28 Aug 2020 11:29 AM by Chappy
I must be missing something.... My ranger is rr4 at the moment, fully temped and i have tried 15p worth of respecs on top of the 24hour freebies. I can RARELY kill anyone solo lol. Oh, i can pick of solo dot kiters farming in the frontier or an untemped leather or cloth wearer but I rarely see a crit shot land north of the mid to upper 400's on a temped player. What am I missing that makes the ranger so UBER? I have asked in advice and guild with no luck so far so please enlighten me as to the magic spec and RA's that make me the super predator. I can do way more damage with a backpack full of catapults than 1 target hit per volley flight.
Fri 28 Aug 2020 3:45 PM by Sabatasso79
I think the main reason there are many Rangers is not because they are OP. They are simple to level up solo, they are fairly cheap to temp up and they are fun for casuals because you can just log on and get into it and they are very versatile. Useful in zergs & keep fights and useful for roaming. Hunters are probably even cheaper to temp up, and if Midgard hadn't been in shambles at the moment, a lot of the new rangers could possibly have been hunters. It could even be that most of the new rangers are migrating mids looking for a quick, fun class on Hib.

I think I've said this over and over by now, but instead of nerfing Rangers they should 'fix' light tanks because light tanks are fun and a lot of those people who play stealthers, particularly Ranger or assassin, has also often been the same people who really enjoys visible/non stealth dual wielders like Blademaster, Mercenary and Berserker.

For a melee class, movement is essential, and there is so many ways to limit a players' ability to move, both magical and physichal (slam, hinder, root, spell stun, mez etc.). There are so many that a single Purge isn't really much help. For Light Tanks, who doesn't really have any defence either, end up being replaced by classes who doesn't need to move to be effective and impactful. Some of us choose stealthers instead. I am one of those.

Fixing Light Tanks is, in other words, an effective method to shift interest away from Rangers, and other overplayed classes.
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:13 PM by Fiatil
Chappy wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 11:29 AM
I must be missing something.... My ranger is rr4 at the moment, fully temped and i have tried 15p worth of respecs on top of the 24hour freebies. I can RARELY kill anyone solo lol. Oh, i can pick of solo dot kiters farming in the frontier or an untemped leather or cloth wearer but I rarely see a crit shot land north of the mid to upper 400's on a temped player. What am I missing that makes the ranger so UBER? I have asked in advice and guild with no luck so far so please enlighten me as to the magic spec and RA's that make me the super predator. I can do way more damage with a backpack full of catapults than 1 target hit per volley flight.

This is exactly where I'm coming from. Rangers are clearly the worst of the three archers at soloing. A hunter with their pet and a scout with their shield and stun + root have more utility than rangers do. The ranger relies almost entirely on their bow damage to get the kill. If they don't kill the target outright before the target gets within melee range or activates MoC and starts interrupting them, they have almost no shot. Yes, once every 10 minutes they get a speed buff that can be used as utility offensively or defensively. It's a nice spell, but it's on a 10 minute timer. Hunter pets are not on a 10 minute timer, and scout's CCs are anytimers without a timer, one of which doesn't even grant an immunity timer.

Those in favor of the ranger nerf keep ignoring that. Okay, rangers have 10-15% more bow damage. That 10-15% more bow damage has to do all of the lifting to make up for the hunter pet and the scout shield and all of the CC and escapability it brings. In a solo situation, I am taking the pet and the shield every single time. It's not even close -- a scout will do 10-15% less damage on their initial pull (ignoring the extra range they have), but then they get to completely reset the encounter with their target over and over again. I see a lot of scouts say "the other person can just run away" -- do you understand how incredibly powerful that is? You have an ability that forces whoever you're targeting to either engage you on your terms, or flee. That's an amazing ability!

All a bow ranger has to deal with an encounter is pathfinding and their bow. Depending on spec, they may have the 12 CD back snare. That's it (and if someone lets a lurikeen bow ranger land a rear style snare on them....uh wow, that is comically bad). If you remove the benefits that pathfinding (and lurikeen dex) provide in excess of hunters and scouts, rangers have no advantages as archers anymore. They will perform roughly equally well to a scout or hunter in scenarios where they are allowed to shoot with impunity, and drastically less well in every other situation because the hunters have the pet and the scouts have the shield with CC to disrupt once the target has noticed them and is trying to close distance or interrupt.

Please don't kill one of the few Hibernian classes that can actually kind of solo in the frontier. IE, classes with stealth or speed 5. We don't have a class that gets speed 5 and can solo like Midgard and Albion -- ours is a support class and probably the worst solo class in the game. We only have our stealthers, and neither of them currently are the meta hotness when it comes to solo gameplay. Kind of the opposite! Nightshades aren't terrible but they're never brought up as the most powerful solo assassin, and rangers are worse solo-ers than scouts or hunters as is. And if it needs to be said, please spare me stuff about hibernia's classes that are good at solo in lab controlled environments -- yes, they are great in duels, but they can easily be outrun and taken down in the frontier as solo-ers due to their lack of speed 5 or stealth.

Rangers are outperforming other archers in volley groups using tactical coordination. They are not outperforming in other environments. If you want to nerf volley to reduce the impact it has in zerg vs zerg, in particular with rangers, that seems like a reasonable balance change. The complaints about rangers are overwhelmingly related to that, and as such I think you will accomplish your goal with rebalancing the ranger population. I just don't think the archery of rangers outside of that situation needs to be nerfed -- it's only trick now is doing 10-15% more damage, and if you take that away they are worse versions of scouts and hunters in every way. If you go that route, the only reasonable option is to homogenize the three classes and esssentially make them all like scouts, which is balanced but not very "DAoC".

Scouts can go 50 bow and use their "class mechanic" by speccing high in shield, Hunters can go 50 bow and use their "class mechanic" by speccing high in beastcraft and get buffs and their pet; rangers can't go 50 bow and use their "class mechanic" of CD to any reasonable degree (you can get to about 12 in CD). It's not an apples to apples comparison because of this, and wanting the only unique thing about rangers to be CD ignores that completely. It needs to include pathfinding + lurikeen dex to have extra bow damage, otherwise I would like some of that utility they have over in scoutland and hunterland please.
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:22 PM by DinoTriz
Fiatil wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:13 PM
rangers can't go 50 bow and use their "class mechanic" of CD to any reasonable degree (you can get to about 12 in CD). It's not an apples to apples comparison because of this, and wanting the only unique thing about rangers to be CD ignores that completely. It needs to include pathfinding + lurikeen dex to have extra bow damage, otherwise I would like some of that utility they have over in scoutland and hunterland please.

I'm not disagreeing with your whole comment, but I'd say Pathfinding is the Ranger's "class mechanic" rather than CD.

It's a HUGE reason why people call Rangers the best archer class.
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:53 PM by Freedomcall
Friday primetime, and just an interesting statistics.



Fri 28 Aug 2020 8:23 PM by Lokkjim
Fiatil wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:13 PM
This is exactly where I'm coming from. Rangers are clearly the worst of the three archers at soloing. A hunter with their pet and a scout with their shield and stun + root have more utility than rangers do. The ranger relies almost entirely on their bow damage to get the kill. If they don't kill the target outright before the target gets within melee range or activates MoC and starts interrupting them, they have almost no shot. Yes, once every 10 minutes they get a speed buff that can be used as utility offensively or defensively. It's a nice spell, but it's on a 10 minute timer. Hunter pets are not on a 10 minute timer, and scout's CCs are anytimers without a timer, one of which doesn't even grant an immunity timer.

Those in favor of the ranger nerf keep ignoring that. Okay, rangers have 10-15% more bow damage. That 10-15% more bow damage has to do all of the lifting to make up for the hunter pet and the scout shield and all of the CC and escapability it brings. In a solo situation, I am taking the pet and the shield every single time. It's not even close -- a scout will do 10-15% less damage on their initial pull (ignoring the extra range they have), but then they get to completely reset the encounter with their target over and over again. I see a lot of scouts say "the other person can just run away" -- do you understand how incredibly powerful that is? You have an ability that forces whoever you're targeting to either engage you on your terms, or flee. That's an amazing ability!

All a bow ranger has to deal with an encounter is pathfinding and their bow. Depending on spec, they may have the 12 CD back snare. That's it (and if someone lets a lurikeen bow ranger land a rear style snare on them....uh wow, that is comically bad). If you remove the benefits that pathfinding (and lurikeen dex) provide in excess of hunters and scouts, rangers have no advantages as archers anymore. They will perform roughly equally well to a scout or hunter in scenarios where they are allowed to shoot with impunity, and drastically less well in every other situation because the hunters have the pet and the scouts have the shield with CC to disrupt once the target has noticed them and is trying to close distance or interrupt.

Please don't kill one of the few Hibernian classes that can actually kind of solo in the frontier. IE, classes with stealth or speed 5. We don't have a class that gets speed 5 and can solo like Midgard and Albion -- ours is a support class and probably the worst solo class in the game. We only have our stealthers, and neither of them currently are the meta hotness when it comes to solo gameplay. Kind of the opposite! Nightshades aren't terrible but they're never brought up as the most powerful solo assassin, and rangers are worse solo-ers than scouts or hunters as is. And if it needs to be said, please spare me stuff about hibernia's classes that are good at solo in lab controlled environments -- yes, they are great in duels, but they can easily be outrun and taken down in the frontier as solo-ers due to their lack of speed 5 or stealth.

Rangers are outperforming other archers in volley groups using tactical coordination. They are not outperforming in other environments. If you want to nerf volley to reduce the impact it has in zerg vs zerg, in particular with rangers, that seems like a reasonable balance change. The complaints about rangers are overwhelmingly related to that, and as such I think you will accomplish your goal with rebalancing the ranger population. I just don't think the archery of rangers outside of that situation needs to be nerfed -- it's only trick now is doing 10-15% more damage, and if you take that away they are worse versions of scouts and hunters in every way. If you go that route, the only reasonable option is to homogenize the three classes and esssentially make them all like scouts, which is balanced but not very "DAoC".

Scouts can go 50 bow and use their "class mechanic" by speccing high in shield, Hunters can go 50 bow and use their "class mechanic" by speccing high in beastcraft and get buffs and their pet; rangers can't go 50 bow and use their "class mechanic" of CD to any reasonable degree (you can get to about 12 in CD). It's not an apples to apples comparison because of this, and wanting the only unique thing about rangers to be CD ignores that completely. It needs to include pathfinding + lurikeen dex to have extra bow damage, otherwise I would like some of that utility they have over in scoutland and hunterland please.

This is a lot to quote, but here ya go.

Rangers can currently solo as a melee spec, hybrid spec, and full bow spec. Don't see hybrid spec often unless they are a high RR. I don't know why you think hib stealthers aren't the meta hotness, especially with the ranger population. Hib stealthers get the slash damage advantage in melee, alb has to choose between being good against mid or neutral against hib, and mid only gets slash. Maybe it isn't the "meta" but it certainly isn't the opposite of the meta.

Hunters have a 5.0 bow as their slowest bow and a pet. This brings them in line with archery damage in general. This pet can be CC'd though. I'm not going to run through all the possible scenarios of how a hunter has to manage their pet.

As stated so many times in this thread, going full bow is a choice and the only class you have to worry about is stealthers because you can choose your fights. And yes, rangers have a 10-minute speed cd on speed burst, but stealth is also an escape tool. You have other options, unlike scout who can only be full bow unless they never want to kill anything before adds.

Rangers currently outperform every other archer in a group situation. This is evidenced by the stealth groups and the ranger population. Scout shield doesn't really help a group at all and the hunter pet can again be CC'd. Rangers also get a damage add which is a class mechanic because hunters and scouts do not get that.
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:05 PM by gruenesschaf
Tomorrow will see the volley cd increase to 90 seconds.
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:14 PM by Cadebrennus
There is a solution to Volley:


USE YOUR FUCKING SHIELD
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:20 PM by Messerjockel
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:05 PM
Tomorrow will see the volley cd increase to 90 seconds.

With the 90 sec cd, is it working like 5 arrows one after the other like now or like an ae dd like casters have which affects all players in one area?
Asking because arrows hit often no target but an enemy is standing on my GT

Flup, hib
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:25 PM by Lokkjim
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:14 PM
There is a solution to Volley:


USE YOUR FUCKING SHIELD

Lokkjim wrote: DAOC is a sophisticated rock, paper, scissors game, but we're doing nothing to decrease the amount of AoE and just saying shield bearers should protect, instead of climb walls, or operate a ram. Sure it's a choice, but where does it get you? You have fewer people on a ram or climbing while you're attacking to protect someone, who you can only protect from volley. Even if the shield bearer could block 100% of the arrows from volley, they are still getting hit by other AoEs, and have only extended the time their groupmate will survive. In helping the groupmate survive, it takes longer to take the keep, which exposes you to more reinforcements and more AoE. Maybe there is something I'm missing and you can help explain it, but I don't see a good reason to guard someone against volley.
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:34 PM by Chappy
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:05 PM
Tomorrow will see the volley cd increase to 90 seconds.


Sooo.... unless volley can now hit multiple targets per shot it is basically useless now?
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:36 PM by Cadebrennus
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:25 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:14 PM
There is a solution to Volley:


USE YOUR FUCKING SHIELD

Lokkjim wrote: DAOC is a sophisticated rock, paper, scissors game, but we're doing nothing to decrease the amount of AoE and just saying shield bearers should protect, instead of climb walls, or operate a ram. Sure it's a choice, but where does it get you? You have fewer people on a ram or climbing while you're attacking to protect someone, who you can only protect from volley. Even if the shield bearer could block 100% of the arrows from volley, they are still getting hit by other AoEs, and have only extended the time their groupmate will survive. In helping the groupmate survive, it takes longer to take the keep, which exposes you to more reinforcements and more AoE. Maybe there is something I'm missing and you can help explain it, but I don't see a good reason to guard someone against volley.

It can get very complicated, true enough, but if tools/mechanics exist to combat other mechanics, why not use them? Btw I love the rock-paper-scissors aspect of DAOC I've yet to see replicated as well in any other game.
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:44 PM by Stoertebecker
Chappy wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:34 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:05 PM
Tomorrow will see the volley cd increase to 90 seconds.


Sooo.... unless volley can now hit multiple targets per shot it is basically useless now?

It isn`t spamable anymore. I`m ok with it.
Sat 29 Aug 2020 5:33 AM by imweasel
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:05 PM
Tomorrow will see the volley cd increase to 90 seconds.

This has to be a joke.
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:13 AM by Neso
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Aug 2020 9:09 PM
1) Longer cooldown, about 3 minutes
2) Damage set to a flat value not scaling with other archery stuff

Ok, so changed to 90 seconds.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Aug 2020 9:09 PM
There are basically 2 solutions:
1) Do a ranger only nerf wrt archery damage
2) Give scout access to the self buffs and reduce archery damage in general so that a then fully self buffed scout does the same damage as a currently potion buffed scout

But what about this?
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:41 AM by Valaraukar
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:05 PM
Tomorrow will see the volley cd increase to 90 seconds.

And again we get a whole RA nerf, affecting all realms, because of one Hib class being broken.

yeah, it makes sense!
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:45 AM by Valaraukar
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:53 PM
Friday primetime, and just an interesting statistics.





OMG I'm overwhelmed by the number of Bonedancers logged... ah no wait there's no one.... So much for the OP class that every Mid group has!

BUT, and mark my words, Rangers are not OP, they are just funny that's why there are so many!
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:57 AM by Stoertebecker
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:45 AM
OMG I'm overwhelmed by the number of Bonedancers logged... ah no wait there's no one.... So much for the OP class that every Mid group has!

BUT, and mark my words, Rangers are not OP, they are just funny that's why there are so many!

I`m more overwhelmed by the scrollbar on the right of the box and that not all classes are listed in this screensshot
Sat 29 Aug 2020 7:11 AM by Valaraukar
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:57 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:45 AM
OMG I'm overwhelmed by the number of Bonedancers logged... ah no wait there's no one.... So much for the OP class that every Mid group has!

BUT, and mark my words, Rangers are not OP, they are just funny that's why there are so many!

I`m more overwhelmed by the scrollbar on the right of the box and that not all classes are listed in this screensshot

Yes not all classes listed but many... let me count: 25.

So can we say that BDs are, at best, the 26th class played in that screenshot? With, at best, 14 ppl logged? So with a population, at best, identical to scouts (which everyone says they suck).

But that's not on topic, mine was just a consideration regarding the most nerfed class on this server compared to the most OP class. Sorry to have gone off topic here
Sat 29 Aug 2020 8:56 AM by Astaa
Archers to get a free realm respec then yeah? or?
Sat 29 Aug 2020 9:30 AM by Tyrlaan
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:41 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:05 PM
Tomorrow will see the volley cd increase to 90 seconds.

And again we get a whole RA nerf, affecting all realms, because of one Hib class being broken.

yeah, it makes sense!

I was on the winning team yesterday. Volley from Scouts isn´t any less retarded. The low RUT means they don´t target or shoot anybody anymore but look for some corner far away from action to /groundassist and spam Volley.
Sat 29 Aug 2020 9:39 AM by Forlornhope
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:41 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:05 PM
Tomorrow will see the volley cd increase to 90 seconds.

And again we get a whole RA nerf, affecting all realms, because of one Hib class being broken.

yeah, it makes sense!

That's not why they're nerfing it, volley RA as a whole needed a nerf. Obviously they're trying the smaller changes first to see how the server and populations of archer classes as a whole reacts to it before doing something more extreme. However, I would not be opposed to them lowering the amount of points now from eight to five. I've always thought that 8 points was to extreme a cost for volley with how it was before, which is why I never bothered to get it on my hunter.
Sat 29 Aug 2020 11:20 AM by Messerjockel
An adjustment of cd from 15 seconds to 30 seconds would prevent spam.
Just got killed from 5 or more alb stealth Zerg at crim flag.
Devs looked at the wrong problem because that is the problem.
Grouping yes but for a disadvantage in stealth.

Flup, hib, solo ranger.

Edit: correct number was 7 alb stealth
Sat 29 Aug 2020 11:44 AM by Valaraukar
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 9:39 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:41 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:05 PM
Tomorrow will see the volley cd increase to 90 seconds.

And again we get a whole RA nerf, affecting all realms, because of one Hib class being broken.

yeah, it makes sense!

That's not why they're nerfing it, volley RA as a whole needed a nerf. Obviously they're trying the smaller changes first to see how the server and populations of archer classes as a whole reacts to it before doing something more extreme. However, I would not be opposed to them lowering the amount of points now from eight to five. I've always thought that 8 points was to extreme a cost for volley with how it was before, which is why I never bothered to get it on my hunter.

The RA itself did not need any nerf before 50+ rangers popped out in FZ, as I see it.
Anyway yes, if the CD is 90 secs 8 points are a complete waste (I'll remove volley, used it for a while did not enjoy it so I was about to remove it anyway, also with the 15 secs CD)
Sat 29 Aug 2020 12:22 PM by gotwqqd
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 9:39 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:41 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:05 PM
Tomorrow will see the volley cd increase to 90 seconds.

And again we get a whole RA nerf, affecting all realms, because of one Hib class being broken.

yeah, it makes sense!

That's not why they're nerfing it, volley RA as a whole needed a nerf. Obviously they're trying the smaller changes first to see how the server and populations of archer classes as a whole reacts to it before doing something more extreme. However, I would not be opposed to them lowering the amount of points now from eight to five. I've always thought that 8 points was to extreme a cost for volley with how it was before, which is why I never bothered to get it on my hunter.
I thought it was overpriced before...same with long wind
After today’s changes should cost 3 pts
Sat 29 Aug 2020 12:41 PM by Lokkjim
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 12:22 PM
I thought it was overpriced before...same with long wind
After today’s changes should cost 3 pts

Maybe 5, but even then, how about we try it before saying there needs to be more change? Hib talks about how coordinated they are with their volleys, so let's give them an opportunity to show us how the change affects volley.
Sat 29 Aug 2020 2:00 PM by DaleRod
Great change making volly basically useless. More ranger nerf to the only thing we have worth a damn. So you going to increase our shot damage as we can't stun or dot or poison from range. You devs need to stop screwing around with gameplay; taking away the only skill of so many classes that make it a fun to play.
Sat 29 Aug 2020 2:05 PM by evert
They literally said they want to nerf Rangers so less people play them and people are in here asking for a buff and threatening to not play their ranger
Sat 29 Aug 2020 2:46 PM by Myrdinn
So will there be a respec or refund of points for the people now who have a very expensive reduced skill? Its no longer worth 8 points.
There was a concerted effort in other realms chat saying ppl should go to Hib and roll a Ranger, while one prime player was on hols and all relics got taken. I screenshot'd some. Whats the next char ppl will pick on and roll en masse to claim a nerf now it proved fruitful?
Sat 29 Aug 2020 3:25 PM by gotwqqd
Completely unnecessary

The problem is how synergistic stealth + ranged + numbers are
Sat 29 Aug 2020 3:57 PM by trox32
Free respe for those that had volley ?
Sat 29 Aug 2020 4:03 PM by Dunga
great change, unbelievable how to make such a brain tear again....

and now? stand on the wall and than what?

bullshit!

and ofc, if you do it with volley then also with all other gtaoe. it's really laughable.
Sat 29 Aug 2020 4:34 PM by Expfighter
Dunga wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 4:03 PM
great change, unbelievable how to make such a brain tear again....

and now? stand on the wall and than what?

bullshit!

Correct, Nice job GM's AWESOME change!

/sarcasm off

/respec realm
Sat 29 Aug 2020 4:36 PM by Kwall0311
You guys are crying over 3k feathers!? lmao
Sat 29 Aug 2020 5:10 PM by Sunkissed
archery unique ra made completely useless now. better delete it out of the game...such a ridiculous change where initially it was intended to shrink the ranger population.
what if 10 catapults assist each other...will you then set the reuse time to 90sec, too?
Sat 29 Aug 2020 5:13 PM by Tyrlaan
Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 4:36 PM
You guys are crying over 3k feathers!? lmao

They probably earned a lot more than that by abusing it. Also it´s still a great RA to hit people outside LoS on a roof or hugging walls etc. It´s just not something to use exclusively anymore. If they do their part to reduce the archer population, they don´t need a free RA respec for a class they threaten to not play anymore either.
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:01 PM by Delegator
If anybody thinks that volley damage wasn't an issue, they haven't tried to defend a tower where going on the roof was insta-death and there was nothing the defenders could do about it. Why this seemed particular to rangers...well, that's because rangers have higher base dex and have the self buffs, so their base damage was higher. It could have been an issue for scouts in theory, but with potion buffs leaving dex maybe 20-30 below a lurikeen ranger, it wasn't as bad.

That said, a sixfold increase in the recast timer feels like too much. If history is a guide, this will be reduced to 60 seconds in an upcoming change. Just like when archery damage was increased too much and then backed down.

Anyway, I doubt I'll spec Volley if it retains the 90 second timer. But then, my archers aren't solely about keeps.
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:26 PM by Forlornhope
Awe man you guys are going to have to do something other than standing unseen behind a wall and spamming one button with impunity. Shucks
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:35 PM by Dunga
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:26 PM
Awe man you guys are going to have to do something other than standing unseen behind a wall and spamming one button with impunity. Shucks

said the guy who can heal without los
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:38 PM by Sunkissed
next joke is, if you get rupted, once you've activated volley, it's cancelled and you have to wait 90 sec to activate it again...8 ra-points for such a mess
Sat 29 Aug 2020 8:27 PM by gotwqqd
Although it in no way guys the class the change was poorly thought out.
They would be better off halving the damage and leaving timer alone
Sat 29 Aug 2020 10:42 PM by Fiatil
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:22 PM
Fiatil wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:13 PM
rangers can't go 50 bow and use their "class mechanic" of CD to any reasonable degree (you can get to about 12 in CD). It's not an apples to apples comparison because of this, and wanting the only unique thing about rangers to be CD ignores that completely. It needs to include pathfinding + lurikeen dex to have extra bow damage, otherwise I would like some of that utility they have over in scoutland and hunterland please.

I'm not disagreeing with your whole comment, but I'd say Pathfinding is the Ranger's "class mechanic" rather than CD.

It's a HUGE reason why people call Rangers the best archer class.

I agree! That's essentially what I'm saying. The devs said in their post that they consider CD the defining trait of rangers, and I disagree with that. It's partly that, but it's clearly PF as well. Melee rangers and bow rangers are going to take a healthy amount of PF, and a bow ranger is terrible without heavy investment into PF. If you look at their "change idea #1" for rangers, you'll see that they essentially want pathfinding to have to be specced heavily to do as much bow damage as the other classes, instead of having it be the thing that makes them do more damage, which makes it a terrible skill dump. That's why I think it's a really bad idea, because if they do that change you wind up making a ranger spec 50 bow and 48 pathfinding to do as much damage as a scout that specs only 50 bow. The ranger would have to spend almost twice as many skillpoints as a scout to do as much damage as them with a bow under that system, while getting 0 of the benefits. The scout gets to spend those 48 levels of points and get shields with all of the many benefits that come with that, whereas the ranger spent 48 as basically a dump to catch up in bow damage, leaving them with almost no skillpoints to spec celtic dual. It would leave rangers in a very far distant third among the archer classes -- same bow damage, no pet or shield, or room to spec CD.
Sun 30 Aug 2020 6:11 AM by Forlornhope
Dunga wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:35 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:26 PM
Awe man you guys are going to have to do something other than standing unseen behind a wall and spamming one button with impunity. Shucks

said the guy who can heal without los

Being able to heal without los and being able to kill multiple people without los are not even comparable mechanics lol. Plus a healing out of los is way more balanced considering the only heal that you can do it and actually save someone uses enough power that you'll be oop in six casts. Either way, healers who do that are bad, it's much more efficient using mostly single target heals.
Sun 30 Aug 2020 12:42 PM by Delegator
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 6:11 AM
Dunga wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:35 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:26 PM
Awe man you guys are going to have to do something other than standing unseen behind a wall and spamming one button with impunity. Shucks

said the guy who can heal without los

Being able to heal without los and being able to kill multiple people without los are not even comparable mechanics lol. Plus a healing out of los is way more balanced considering the only heal that you can do it and actually save someone uses enough power that you'll be oop in six casts. Either way, healers who do that are bad, it's much more efficient using mostly single target heals.

OOP in 6 casts...which have no timer and any one of which would heal all the damage from a single volley. And you can pop a potion or use an item or use a realm ability and get a few more casts. Talk about a need to get good.

Volley was OP, but is hardly the only thing that people can do with impunity. GTAE with impunity on a 6 second timer? Check. Heal without LOS? Check. Have a necro place a GT, or even pop out and PBAE and escape back through the door as a shade even if the pet is stunned? Check. Cast shrooms in places that will hit people but that put the caster in no danger? Check. Sending pets through a door to attack somebody? Check.

Oh, and archers cannot volley with impunity -- they have to have open sky, which means they are subject to volley and siege.

So basically you are just happy because somebody else got nerfed. That doesn't make your arguments anywhere near correct. Just makes you basically a jerk.
Sun 30 Aug 2020 12:55 PM by Forlornhope
Delegator wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 12:42 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 6:11 AM
Dunga wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:35 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 6:26 PM
Awe man you guys are going to have to do something other than standing unseen behind a wall and spamming one button with impunity. Shucks

said the guy who can heal without los

Being able to heal without los and being able to kill multiple people without los are not even comparable mechanics lol. Plus a healing out of los is way more balanced considering the only heal that you can do it and actually save someone uses enough power that you'll be oop in six casts. Either way, healers who do that are bad, it's much more efficient using mostly single target heals.

OOP in 6 casts...which have no timer and any one of which would heal all the damage from a single volley. And you can pop a potion or use an item or use a realm ability and get a few more casts. Talk about a need to get good.

Volley was OP, but is hardly the only thing that people can do with impunity. GTAE with impunity on a 6 second timer? Check. Heal without LOS? Check. Have a necro place a GT, or even pop out and PBAE and escape back through the door as a shade even if the pet is stunned? Check. Cast shrooms in places that will hit people but that put the caster in no danger? Check. Sending pets through a door to attack somebody? Check.

Oh, and archers cannot volley with impunity -- they have to have open sky, which means they are subject to volley and siege.

So basically you are just happy because somebody else got nerfed. That doesn't make your arguments anywhere near correct. Just makes you basically a jerk.

Uh the only thing I actually play anymore is a hunter, but nice try my friend. The difference with most of the things you mentioned is that no can actually die by those things alone. Volley was OP and it needed either a longer timer or a huge damage reduction. Just because their reasoning behind it is flawed, and that being to lower the ranger population, doesn't mean it wasn't needed as a whole. Even if being able to do it with impunity is a slight over exaggeration it's really not off by much.
Sun 30 Aug 2020 1:21 PM by Tommylad
This volley nerf is a bad as the legendary Mythic Smite cleric nerf which turned a whole class into nothing more than buffbots. Live started reversing that nerf. Question : Is Phoenix fast becoming a Dodo?
Sun 30 Aug 2020 1:28 PM by Tyrlaan
Tommylad wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 1:21 PM
This volley nerf is a bad as the legendary Mythic Smite cleric nerf which turned a whole class into nothing more than buffbots. Live started reversing that nerf. Question : Is Phoenix fast becoming a Dodo?

My /serverinfo says otherwise.
Sun 30 Aug 2020 3:07 PM by Horus
I think a free RA respec is in order for archers.
Sun 30 Aug 2020 5:00 PM by Sunkissed
what i simply do not understand about that nerf is : why do they identify that volley needs a nerf after it has been like that with 15sec cooldown since start of phoenix. now they nerf it because of what? because archers assist each other (which is a elemental basic function in this game) and this leads to make this ra completely useless with 90sec cooldown!

there is simply no logic in this nerf.
the initial statement that the ranger population must be toned down is a joke. do you think people who play a ranger and like it's style of playing it, suddenly dismiss the class and level sth else? it just ruined the fun of the class which rather leads people to quit the game/server.
Sun 30 Aug 2020 6:12 PM by daytonchambers
As it was, volley was as stupid and broken as gtaoe is in keep fights.

Volley with a 15s cd made it basically spammable with the cooldown ticking even during the draw and shot times. if the 15s cooldown STARTED after the last shot it would make sense, but not the way they had it.

If I was in charge of the nerf it would only be on a 30s cooldown, which only started after arrows were fired, so about 45s total between volleys. That way it couldn't be spammed but your CD timer wouldn't start if you get rupted before you have a chance to shoot, which it does now making the RA investment pretty much worthless.

Even with this volley nerf the Ranger epidemic will still be a thing though, since the volley BS was merely a side effect of so many archers playing in the first place.
Sun 30 Aug 2020 7:35 PM by Forlornhope
daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 6:12 PM
As it was, volley was as stupid and broken as gtaoe is in keep fights.

Volley with a 15s cd made it basically spammable with the cooldown ticking even during the draw and shot times. if the 15s cooldown STARTED after the last shot it would make sense, but not the way they had it.

If I was in charge of the nerf it would only be on a 30s cooldown, which only started after arrows were fired, so about 45s total between volleys. That way it couldn't be spammed but your CD timer wouldn't start if you get rupted before you have a chance to shoot, which it does now making the RA investment pretty much worthless.

Even with this volley nerf the Ranger epidemic will still be a thing though, since the volley BS was merely a side effect of so many archers playing in the first place.

Most reasonable thing said on this thread, I'd also lower the damage a bit and reduce the cost of the RA to five points.
Sun 30 Aug 2020 9:38 PM by gruenesschaf
Sunkissed wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 5:00 PM
what i simply do not understand about that nerf is : why do they identify that volley needs a nerf after it has been like that with 15sec cooldown since start of phoenix. now they nerf it because of what? because archers assist each other (which is a elemental basic function in this game) and this leads to make this ra completely useless with 90sec cooldown!

there is simply no logic in this nerf.
the initial statement that the ranger population must be toned down is a joke. do you think people who play a ranger and like it's style of playing it, suddenly dismiss the class and level sth else? it just ruined the fun of the class which rather leads people to quit the game/server.

When nobody uses something, e. g. there not really being any archers as was the case pretty until the archery buff, nobody really cares about it. However, the more archers gathered the more people realized how effective volley assist is and then it became a problem.
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:12 PM by Astaa
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 9:38 PM
Sunkissed wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 5:00 PM
what i simply do not understand about that nerf is : why do they identify that volley needs a nerf after it has been like that with 15sec cooldown since start of phoenix. now they nerf it because of what? because archers assist each other (which is a elemental basic function in this game) and this leads to make this ra completely useless with 90sec cooldown!

there is simply no logic in this nerf.
the initial statement that the ranger population must be toned down is a joke. do you think people who play a ranger and like it's style of playing it, suddenly dismiss the class and level sth else? it just ruined the fun of the class which rather leads people to quit the game/server.

When nobody uses something, e. g. there not really being any archers as was the case pretty until the archery buff, nobody really cares about it. However, the more archers gathered the more people realized how effective volley assist is and then it became a problem.

When are you fixing mincers?

When are you fixing GTAOE?

When are you fixing necro pets and necros using shade form to get GT targets? A simple loss check would work, necro has no LOS with pet, can't set GT, easy.

I realise its probably a pretty thankless task, but if you are going to start fixing things then please fix things. Cap mincer pets to yellow, it won't change zerg or 8 man dynamic but will stop mincers lolling about the place with a fricking Finliath, or a pet that heals better than a cleric, then sossing away at the first sniff of defeat.
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:28 PM by gruenesschaf
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:12 PM
When are you fixing mincers?

When are you fixing GTAOE?

Both were nerfed quite a bit already. For mincers keep in mind that we don't really care that much about 1v1 balance and the pet issue primarily affects that lineup.
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:59 PM by Messerjockel
Hi Gruenesschaf,

I believe your last comment has a high potential for a hot....heated discussion :-)

Flup, hib
Mon 31 Aug 2020 12:03 AM by Tyrlaan
We had that discussion already. As a speed class, a healthy population of Minstrels (and thus an attractive set of abilities) is essential to the realm. Nobody would care if there was not a single Ranger playing. We don´t need to discuss this any further.
Mon 31 Aug 2020 2:26 AM by Kikicorky96
If I may add an opinion on this nerf since some of the devs seem to be still reading that post.

I myself supported a volley nerf assuming it would reduce the overall damage of it for all archers (Althouh I really think it was mainly beneficial to rangers, and it has nothing to do with them being good at assisiting GT, lol), while allowing and keeping the interrupt job it was suposed to provide, hence my previous suggestion to change it to a GTAOEish ability.
But with that new cooldown, it's clear that this RA lost its main purpose for any archers, not to mention the 8 skill points needed to get it in exchange for a rather poor incentive.
Of course, archers will always have the possibility to coordinate their GT assist to try and be efficient from time to time, but looking at the big picture, it seems to me that archers will be much less relevant in the siege warfare from now on. Well, the numbers seem to show that tendency already anyway.

Is that good or not? I can't say. Playing a scout myself, I feel really hurt by that change but having a caster as a main, i'd probably enjoy better a keep fight with less rangers doing their magic on ramparts.
But I can imagine what just happened for people playing archer as a main (or even only class). It always hurt to invest time in a character that can suddenly become, if not useless, at least not relevant anymore in given situations.
My overall feeling about this : Devs just killed a fly with their hammer, trying to fix the monster they created with the inital archery change.

Which leads to my question, hopefully I'll get an answer : Is that change definitive or are the dev having a short observation time before potentially considering a more subtle approach to that volley nerf?
Mon 31 Aug 2020 3:09 AM by ExcretusMaximus
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:28 PM
Both were nerfed quite a bit already. For mincers keep in mind that we don't really care that much about 1v1 balance and the pet issue primarily affects that lineup.

Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on that.

A red pet shutting down a member of the enemy team permanently is not a 1v1 balance issue, and if you think it doesn't have an effect on group versus group outcomes, you're either not playing the game or willingly being obtuse.
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:16 AM by gruenesschaf
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 3:09 AM
Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on that.

A red pet shutting down a member of the enemy team permanently is not a 1v1 balance issue, and if you think it doesn't have an effect on group versus group outcomes, you're either not playing the game or willingly being obtuse.

And if you think a red pet is the same as a red mob in the wild you haven't really ever tested it.
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:37 AM by Valaraukar
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:28 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:12 PM
When are you fixing mincers?

When are you fixing GTAOE?

Both were nerfed quite a bit already. For mincers keep in mind that we don't really care that much about 1v1 balance and the pet issue primarily affects that lineup.


Wonder why BD LT has been nerfed by 50%, if you don't mind 1v1 balance
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:37 AM by OceanSky
@GM, questions that i want to ask

1. Is the volley cd change sums up all the Potential Archer changes as two areas were mentioned. One is Volley related and the other is self buff related
2. Long shot and Volley are the only 2 unique RA that define archery which LS for general use (sort of) and volley is situational ( tower and keep defense/offense). With Volley change, archer ra tool kit is reduced to LS. And whats your expectation of archer'role in keep/tower warfare so i can adopt in future.
Mon 31 Aug 2020 9:37 AM by Lokkjim
OceanSky wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:37 AM
And whats your expectation of archer'role in keep/tower warfare so i can adopt in future.

I've been seeing this a lot in the forums. Archers do know that they can still shoot arrows in a keep/tower the normal way right? They can stealth, pick their target from a less noticed area, and fire. If you want an idea of how to incorporate volley into your keep battles, why not experiment with it? Here's an idea though, use volley from a concealed area, then look for targets to shoot normally while waiting for volley cd, rinse and repeat.
Mon 31 Aug 2020 10:52 AM by Forlornhope
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:37 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:28 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:12 PM
When are you fixing mincers?

When are you fixing GTAOE?

Both were nerfed quite a bit already. For mincers keep in mind that we don't really care that much about 1v1 balance and the pet issue primarily affects that lineup.


Wonder why BD LT has been nerfed by 50%, if you don't mind 1v1 balance

To be fair, ignoring the fact that a four second timer instant cast interrupt being a huge factor in things like 8v8/small man fights is probably a little short sided of you. Just because it was a big part of solo play for the class does not mean that it wasn't also incredibly strong in other situations as well.
Mon 31 Aug 2020 11:27 AM by Valaraukar
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 10:52 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:37 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:28 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:12 PM
When are you fixing mincers?

When are you fixing GTAOE?

Both were nerfed quite a bit already. For mincers keep in mind that we don't really care that much about 1v1 balance and the pet issue primarily affects that lineup.


Wonder why BD LT has been nerfed by 50%, if you don't mind 1v1 balance

To be fair, ignoring the fact that a four second timer instant cast interrupt being a huge factor in things like 8v8/small man fights is probably a little short sided of you. Just because it was a big part of solo play for the class does not mean that it wasn't also incredibly strong in other situations as well.

I do not ignore it at all. But it remains a plain nerf to one of the core ability of a class, interrupting others, since the BD damage is quite ridicolous, especially the Supp spec one., with nothing given back (and there would be a lot, healer pets casting speed for example, or a little more resist to mezz for the pets, and so many more).
And so it became one of the less played class in Mid, apart from solo farming with a spec totally different by the RvR spec. And the main achievement is that now all stealthers are so happy to get a lone BD in FZ, while before they avoided him like hell.
Good job indeed.
Mon 31 Aug 2020 11:54 AM by Forlornhope
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 11:27 AM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 10:52 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:37 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:28 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:12 PM
When are you fixing mincers?

When are you fixing GTAOE?

Both were nerfed quite a bit already. For mincers keep in mind that we don't really care that much about 1v1 balance and the pet issue primarily affects that lineup.


Wonder why BD LT has been nerfed by 50%, if you don't mind 1v1 balance

To be fair, ignoring the fact that a four second timer instant cast interrupt being a huge factor in things like 8v8/small man fights is probably a little short sided of you. Just because it was a big part of solo play for the class does not mean that it wasn't also incredibly strong in other situations as well.

I do not ignore it at all. But it remains a plain nerf to one of the core ability of a class, interrupting others, since the BD damage is quite ridicolous, especially the Supp spec one., with nothing given back (and there would be a lot, healer pets casting speed for example, or a little more resist to mezz for the pets, and so many more).
And so it became one of the less played class in Mid, apart from solo farming with a spec totally different by the RvR spec. And the main achievement is that now all stealthers are so happy to get a lone BD in FZ, while before they avoided him like hell.
Good job indeed.

Well, that's generally what nerfs are. Core mechanics being toned down because of X reasons. Calsses don't need anything to be given back in some sort of compensation for the enrf, that would defeat the purpose of a nerf in the first place. Sure it's harder for a solo bd to take on a stealther, but really it should be hard for them to take on a class specifically designed to quickly kill a solo target and dip out without being seen. Six seconds isn't unreasonable for an instant lifetap spell, hell I did fine with mine on live and uthgard with it being set at 8 seconds. And still do fine on the rare occasion I take my bd out here on phoenix. People just don't want to have to actually try to win here, that's what most of the issue is with this server. Lazy people who want to have the easiest time vs every thing in every situation.
Mon 31 Aug 2020 12:29 PM by Forlornhope
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 11:27 AM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 10:52 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:37 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:28 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:12 PM
When are you fixing mincers?

When are you fixing GTAOE?

Both were nerfed quite a bit already. For mincers keep in mind that we don't really care that much about 1v1 balance and the pet issue primarily affects that lineup.


Wonder why BD LT has been nerfed by 50%, if you don't mind 1v1 balance

To be fair, ignoring the fact that a four second timer instant cast interrupt being a huge factor in things like 8v8/small man fights is probably a little short sided of you. Just because it was a big part of solo play for the class does not mean that it wasn't also incredibly strong in other situations as well.

I do not ignore it at all. But it remains a plain nerf to one of the core ability of a class, interrupting others, since the BD damage is quite ridicolous, especially the Supp spec one., with nothing given back (and there would be a lot, healer pets casting speed for example, or a little more resist to mezz for the pets, and so many more).
And so it became one of the less played class in Mid, apart from solo farming with a spec totally different by the RvR spec. And the main achievement is that now all stealthers are so happy to get a lone BD in FZ, while before they avoided him like hell.
Good job indeed.

Although, I personally think that the bigger nerf is how easily pets die here. Compared to that the six second lifetap recast timer isn't nearly as bad.
Mon 31 Aug 2020 12:32 PM by Valaraukar
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 11:54 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 11:27 AM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 10:52 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:37 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:28 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:12 PM
When are you fixing mincers?

When are you fixing GTAOE?

Both were nerfed quite a bit already. For mincers keep in mind that we don't really care that much about 1v1 balance and the pet issue primarily affects that lineup.


Wonder why BD LT has been nerfed by 50%, if you don't mind 1v1 balance

To be fair, ignoring the fact that a four second timer instant cast interrupt being a huge factor in things like 8v8/small man fights is probably a little short sided of you. Just because it was a big part of solo play for the class does not mean that it wasn't also incredibly strong in other situations as well.

I do not ignore it at all. But it remains a plain nerf to one of the core ability of a class, interrupting others, since the BD damage is quite ridicolous, especially the Supp spec one., with nothing given back (and there would be a lot, healer pets casting speed for example, or a little more resist to mezz for the pets, and so many more).
And so it became one of the less played class in Mid, apart from solo farming with a spec totally different by the RvR spec. And the main achievement is that now all stealthers are so happy to get a lone BD in FZ, while before they avoided him like hell.
Good job indeed.

Well, that's generally what nerfs are. Core mechanics being toned down because of X reasons. Calsses don't need anything to be given back in some sort of compensation for the enrf, that would defeat the purpose of a nerf in the first place. Sure it's harder for a solo bd to take on a stealther, but really it should be hard for them to take on a class specifically designed to quickly kill a solo target and dip out without being seen. Six seconds isn't unreasonable for an instant lifetap spell, hell I did fine with mine on live and uthgard with it being set at 8 seconds. And still do fine on the rare occasion I take my bd out here on phoenix. People just don't want to have to actually try to win here, that's what most of the issue is with this server. Lazy people who want to have the easiest time vs every thing in every situation.

So the core mechaninc of the BD had to be nerfed, but the baseline stun of hibs casters, or the tons of pets spammed by albs does not need it. Because Albs and Hibs can interrupt everything and everyone, just Mid cannot. Bah...
Likewise Scouts can stun, snare, shot, snare, shot, snare, shot and if needed stun again and start over and if it goes wrong just run away, it's a core mechanic, so no nerf here.
Rangers have better self buffs, higher dex, slower bows, they are core mechanics, so no nerf here.
Hunters have.... a blue pet with 2 mins of recast time, that is not even buffable since the buff is not instant. Maybe could have a nerf here, you know, someone may whine that the pet interrupted them once in a century...

EDIT:

Missed your last reply about Pets: yes this is a very big issue. BDs strengths are (should be) LT and Pets. The pets are just crap, they do not follow, they take forever to cast, can be mezzed by anyone and remain mezzed for eternity, deal ridicolous damage even to other pets and with a debuff on. Then they nerfed also the LT, the other one point of strength. And the outcome is, BD are wonderful to PvE in solo, but totally underdog in PvP/RvR but for the TWF.
Mon 31 Aug 2020 4:36 PM by guyeesha
BD are wonderful to PvE in solo



Yet still, I would rather farm on my shaman or hunter any day of the week.
Mon 31 Aug 2020 7:19 PM by Forlornhope
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 12:32 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 11:54 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 11:27 AM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 10:52 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:37 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:28 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 10:12 PM
When are you fixing mincers?

When are you fixing GTAOE?

Both were nerfed quite a bit already. For mincers keep in mind that we don't really care that much about 1v1 balance and the pet issue primarily affects that lineup.


Wonder why BD LT has been nerfed by 50%, if you don't mind 1v1 balance

To be fair, ignoring the fact that a four second timer instant cast interrupt being a huge factor in things like 8v8/small man fights is probably a little short sided of you. Just because it was a big part of solo play for the class does not mean that it wasn't also incredibly strong in other situations as well.

I do not ignore it at all. But it remains a plain nerf to one of the core ability of a class, interrupting others, since the BD damage is quite ridicolous, especially the Supp spec one., with nothing given back (and there would be a lot, healer pets casting speed for example, or a little more resist to mezz for the pets, and so many more).
And so it became one of the less played class in Mid, apart from solo farming with a spec totally different by the RvR spec. And the main achievement is that now all stealthers are so happy to get a lone BD in FZ, while before they avoided him like hell.
Good job indeed.

Well, that's generally what nerfs are. Core mechanics being toned down because of X reasons. Calsses don't need anything to be given back in some sort of compensation for the enrf, that would defeat the purpose of a nerf in the first place. Sure it's harder for a solo bd to take on a stealther, but really it should be hard for them to take on a class specifically designed to quickly kill a solo target and dip out without being seen. Six seconds isn't unreasonable for an instant lifetap spell, hell I did fine with mine on live and uthgard with it being set at 8 seconds. And still do fine on the rare occasion I take my bd out here on phoenix. People just don't want to have to actually try to win here, that's what most of the issue is with this server. Lazy people who want to have the easiest time vs every thing in every situation.

So the core mechaninc of the BD had to be nerfed, but the baseline stun of hibs casters, or the tons of pets spammed by albs does not need it. Because Albs and Hibs can interrupt everything and everyone, just Mid cannot. Bah...
Likewise Scouts can stun, snare, shot, snare, shot, snare, shot and if needed stun again and start over and if it goes wrong just run away, it's a core mechanic, so no nerf here.
Rangers have better self buffs, higher dex, slower bows, they are core mechanics, so no nerf here.
Hunters have.... a blue pet with 2 mins of recast time, that is not even buffable since the buff is not instant. Maybe could have a nerf here, you know, someone may whine that the pet interrupted them once in a century...

EDIT:

Missed your last reply about Pets: yes this is a very big issue. BDs strengths are (should be) LT and Pets. The pets are just crap, they do not follow, they take forever to cast, can be mezzed by anyone and remain mezzed for eternity, deal ridicolous damage even to other pets and with a debuff on. Then they nerfed also the LT, the other one point of strength. And the outcome is, BD are wonderful to PvE in solo, but totally underdog in PvP/RvR but for the TWF.

Mids can interrupt just not in the same ways. Plenty of other classes have had their core mechanics nerfed, minsterals have had their pets nerfed a few times as have animists. The hunter's pet has also been buffed since the start of this server, yes they're blue con but I still hit people with my hunter pet for 95-115 damage depending on what armor they're wearing. Not to mention it runs faster than sprint speed so it can chase people down really easily and that also helps with interupts a lot unless it gets cc'd (which is always an issue on pretty much every pet so). Just because one class's core mechanic's been nerfed doesn't mean every single one in the game will be, I am not exactly sure how devs decide what gets nerfed but sometimes you're just not going to agree with their decision and that's ok. People from all realms have one class they say has been nerfed to be unplayable or a severe under dog and every realm has at least one, if not more, classes that have been buffed from obscurity to being viable. Mid may seem like it's got less of those cases, but that's because most of those classes didn't need anything to make them viable. And some classes like BD/SM needed toning down. But mid's not alone in that situation, it just seems that way from the perspective of people who don't play other realms.
Tue 1 Sep 2020 6:46 AM by Noashakra
Crying for the nerf of the BD is fucking ridiculous, and it's still doing well in 8mans and in solo. The problem is not the lt, it's the idiotic idea to give PD to mages on this server. You combine it to moc or instant lt and/or pets, and it makes any mage OP at high rank if solo spec.
In zerg vs zerg, it's not changing anything.
The fact most 8mans in gvg still have one should be a hint to you that the BD is still in a good place. It's just worst for people who use their toons with two keys.

The SM was "nerfed" because the intercept was too high. It was a fix, not a nerf. And it's still insanely strong in 1vs1. Stop crying about classes that got a minor nerf just because...
Tue 1 Sep 2020 8:03 AM by Forlornhope
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 6:46 AM
Crying for the nerf of the BD is fucking ridiculous, and it's still doing well in 8mans and in solo. The problem is not the lt, it's the idiotic idea to give PD to mages on this server. You combine it to moc or instant lt and/or pets, and it makes any mage OP at high rank if solo spec.
In zerg vs zerg, it's not changing anything.
The fact most 8mans in gvg still have one should be a hint to you that the BD is still in a good place. It's just worst for people who use their toons with two keys.

The SM was "nerfed" because the intercept was too high. It was a fix, not a nerf. And it's still insanely strong in 1vs1. Stop crying about classes that got a minor nerf just because...

I mean, if you're referring to my post, I'm not crying about it. You should probably read my post a little bit closer and see that I agree with you.. lol trying to explain it to the other guy.
Tue 1 Sep 2020 10:41 AM by Noashakra
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 8:03 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 6:46 AM
Crying for the nerf of the BD is fucking ridiculous, and it's still doing well in 8mans and in solo. The problem is not the lt, it's the idiotic idea to give PD to mages on this server. You combine it to moc or instant lt and/or pets, and it makes any mage OP at high rank if solo spec.
In zerg vs zerg, it's not changing anything.
The fact most 8mans in gvg still have one should be a hint to you that the BD is still in a good place. It's just worst for people who use their toons with two keys.

The SM was "nerfed" because the intercept was too high. It was a fix, not a nerf. And it's still insanely strong in 1vs1. Stop crying about classes that got a minor nerf just because...

I mean, if you're referring to my post, I'm not crying about it. You should probably read my post a little bit closer and see that I agree with you.. lol trying to explain it to the other guy.

It wasn't you I was writing about.
Tue 1 Sep 2020 12:29 PM by Forlornhope
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 10:41 AM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 8:03 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 6:46 AM
Crying for the nerf of the BD is fucking ridiculous, and it's still doing well in 8mans and in solo. The problem is not the lt, it's the idiotic idea to give PD to mages on this server. You combine it to moc or instant lt and/or pets, and it makes any mage OP at high rank if solo spec.
In zerg vs zerg, it's not changing anything.
The fact most 8mans in gvg still have one should be a hint to you that the BD is still in a good place. It's just worst for people who use their toons with two keys.

The SM was "nerfed" because the intercept was too high. It was a fix, not a nerf. And it's still insanely strong in 1vs1. Stop crying about classes that got a minor nerf just because...

I mean, if you're referring to my post, I'm not crying about it. You should probably read my post a little bit closer and see that I agree with you.. lol trying to explain it to the other guy.

It wasn't you I was writing about.

My bad then, should quote the guy though lol.
Tue 1 Sep 2020 10:54 PM by Valaraukar
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 6:46 AM
Crying for the nerf of the BD is fucking ridiculous, and it's still doing well in 8mans and in solo. The problem is not the lt, it's the idiotic idea to give PD to mages on this server. You combine it to moc or instant lt and/or pets, and it makes any mage OP at high rank if solo spec.
In zerg vs zerg, it's not changing anything.
The fact most 8mans in gvg still have one should be a hint to you that the BD is still in a good place. It's just worst for people who use their toons with two keys.

The SM was "nerfed" because the intercept was too high. It was a fix, not a nerf. And it's still insanely strong in 1vs1. Stop crying about classes that got a minor nerf just because...

And here it is one of the whining stealthers who couldn't kill a solo BD, now so full of joy and triumph. Again you say that most 8mans use a BD and again you don't see that if the BD, who are used also for pve farming and DPS in DS, is one of the less played toon in Mid maybe there is some issue with your math, since you also say that all Mids do 8vs8 roaming.
So to recap: BDs are used for PvE, used for DS, used for 8man, used in BG for TWF and it's still a good toon to play solo, BUT they are at the bottom of the played classes in Mid.

Mmmhhh something's wrong here, check and try again

Edit:
last time I respond about BDs here, nothing can change my mind that that nerf has been an excessive punishment on one of the (once) best classes of Mid. And the results are quite clear for everyone who wants to see the reality and not just talk about nothing.
Wed 2 Sep 2020 6:30 AM by Noashakra
What do you know about 8mans man, you don't need to, DT are never going out without 3fg, you don't need to play Opti.
Now look at the gvg list and tell me how the BD is in a bad spot.

BD is always at the top of the classes played in /play. It's the solo mage you see the most, you would know that if you were playing solo. And don't worry dude, if they are 6L+ with PD, you still can't kill them even if played like a noob.

So tired of complaining in each post when you barely play your toons at all since months.

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 12:29 PM
My bad then, should quote the guy though lol.

Quotes of long posts are so annoying I try to avoid them.
Wed 2 Sep 2020 5:01 PM by Stoertebecker
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 6:30 AM
What do you know about 8mans man, you don't need to, DT are never going out without 3fg, you don't need to play Opti.
Now look at the gvg list and tell me how the BD is in a bad spot.

BD is always at the top of the classes played in /play. It's the solo mage you see the most, you would know that if you were playing solo. And don't worry dude, if they are 6L+ with PD, you still can't kill them even if played like a noob.

So tired of complaining in each post when you barely play your toons at all since months.

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 12:29 PM
My bad then, should quote the guy though lol.

Quotes of long posts are so annoying I try to avoid them.

BD`s may be doing well in 8v8. Why? Because the BD`s you see have a high-RR already. Usually you don`t have twf 5, baud, pd and some casting speed related stuff with rr3.
Wed 2 Sep 2020 11:13 PM by Forlornhope
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 5:01 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 6:30 AM
What do you know about 8mans man, you don't need to, DT are never going out without 3fg, you don't need to play Opti.
Now look at the gvg list and tell me how the BD is in a bad spot.

BD is always at the top of the classes played in /play. It's the solo mage you see the most, you would know that if you were playing solo. And don't worry dude, if they are 6L+ with PD, you still can't kill them even if played like a noob.

So tired of complaining in each post when you barely play your toons at all since months.

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 12:29 PM
My bad then, should quote the guy though lol.

Quotes of long posts are so annoying I try to avoid them.

BD`s may be doing well in 8v8. Why? Because the BD`s you see have a high-RR already. Usually you don`t have twf 5, baud, pd and some casting speed related stuff with rr3.

The same thing can be said for basically any caster tbh. There's always going to be a struggle when you're lower rr running in 8man and in basically any situation other than zergs. As it should be..
Thu 3 Sep 2020 6:43 AM by Sepplord
the argument is that settled 8mans won't replace a high-RR BD with another midgard-caster that is sub par
runemaster misses BAoD in the castermeta
spiritmaster is nerfed as well and is in generel not a good fit if you are only running a single caster

that doesn't mean BD is fine, or that the chain of nerfs in total wasn't too much.



You could (as extreme example of the point) take away minstrels pet and melee, completely fucking the class, it would still be ran in Albgroups because of speed
Thu 3 Sep 2020 6:48 AM by Stoertebecker
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 11:13 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 5:01 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 6:30 AM
What do you know about 8mans man, you don't need to, DT are never going out without 3fg, you don't need to play Opti.
Now look at the gvg list and tell me how the BD is in a bad spot.

BD is always at the top of the classes played in /play. It's the solo mage you see the most, you would know that if you were playing solo. And don't worry dude, if they are 6L+ with PD, you still can't kill them even if played like a noob.

So tired of complaining in each post when you barely play your toons at all since months.

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 12:29 PM
My bad then, should quote the guy though lol.

Quotes of long posts are so annoying I try to avoid them.

BD`s may be doing well in 8v8. Why? Because the BD`s you see have a high-RR already. Usually you don`t have twf 5, baud, pd and some casting speed related stuff with rr3.

The same thing can be said for basically any caster tbh. There's always going to be a struggle when you're lower rr running in 8man and in basically any situation other than zergs. As it should be..

You should try a bd, maybe you get it then Atm there`s nothing a GB couln`t do better, except twf.
Thu 3 Sep 2020 11:24 AM by Forlornhope
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 6:48 AM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 11:13 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 5:01 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 6:30 AM
What do you know about 8mans man, you don't need to, DT are never going out without 3fg, you don't need to play Opti.
Now look at the gvg list and tell me how the BD is in a bad spot.

BD is always at the top of the classes played in /play. It's the solo mage you see the most, you would know that if you were playing solo. And don't worry dude, if they are 6L+ with PD, you still can't kill them even if played like a noob.

So tired of complaining in each post when you barely play your toons at all since months.

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 12:29 PM
My bad then, should quote the guy though lol.

Quotes of long posts are so annoying I try to avoid them.

BD`s may be doing well in 8v8. Why? Because the BD`s you see have a high-RR already. Usually you don`t have twf 5, baud, pd and some casting speed related stuff with rr3.

The same thing can be said for basically any caster tbh. There's always going to be a struggle when you're lower rr running in 8man and in basically any situation other than zergs. As it should be..

You should try a bd, maybe you get it then Atm there`s nothing a GB couln`t do better, except twf.

I do have a bd, I play all realms. In fact I have two bds here, four on live, and one on uthgard. I think I know the bd class pretty well lol.
Thu 3 Sep 2020 3:24 PM by Tyrlaan
How did this become a BD discussion?

BDs are powerful and still have many issues (most annoying thing IMO is having to use low con pets instead of the pets one specced for, followed by the lack of a pet demezz - resummoning just isn´t as feasible as for other pet casters).
Thu 3 Sep 2020 4:54 PM by Messerjockel
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 3:24 PM
How did this become a BD discussion?

Grueneschaf made a comment some pages back about balance which opened the door for a class discussion about imbalances and nerfs on the following pages. BD was not first, first after archer discussion was minstrel on the radar.

Flup, hib
Thu 3 Sep 2020 6:37 PM by Forlornhope
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 3:24 PM
How did this become a BD discussion?

BDs are powerful and still have many issues (most annoying thing IMO is having to use low con pets instead of the pets one specced for, followed by the lack of a pet demezz - resummoning just isn´t as feasible as for other pet casters).

It somehow became a mid is under powered and have had too many nerfs discussion once they nerfed volley to decrease the ranger population, basically like every other thread for the past two months lol.
Thu 3 Sep 2020 11:52 PM by Vkejai
Gutted, about volley, gonna have sell my temps now , Ranger and Scout :/
Fri 4 Sep 2020 9:32 AM by Forlornhope
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 11:52 PM
Gutted, about volley, gonna have sell my temps now , Ranger and Scout :/

If you only played the class to volley behind walls in siege fights then you probably never should have played either in the first place. But hey, that means the volley nerf is doing exactly what they wanted it to do I guess.
Fri 4 Sep 2020 9:50 AM by Messerjockel
They should just have toned down the damage of volley.
Now the Zerg only needs 6 catapults and keep the walls and gate house clean of enemies.
Sometimes you need range aoe dps to prevent worse aoe damage from happening.

Flup, hib.
Fri 4 Sep 2020 12:23 PM by Dakkhon
Definitely voting for option 2!!! I have been asking for this for a while. This would level out the playing field imo for archers. Hope they do it soon and you can keep my crappy 45 shield style. Its so easily countered I would never miss it
Fri 4 Sep 2020 2:30 PM by Vkejai
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Sep 2020 9:32 AM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 11:52 PM
Gutted, about volley, gonna have sell my temps now , Ranger and Scout :/

If you only played the class to volley behind walls in siege fights then you probably never should have played either in the first place. But hey, that means the volley nerf is doing exactly what they wanted it to do I guess.

I will play how I want to play. In regards to your comment my RAs and temps need to change to suit a different spec.

Why else would archers spec in volley... for keep fights .
Fri 4 Sep 2020 4:57 PM by Tyrlaan
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Sep 2020 2:30 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Sep 2020 9:32 AM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 11:52 PM
Gutted, about volley, gonna have sell my temps now , Ranger and Scout :/

If you only played the class to volley behind walls in siege fights then you probably never should have played either in the first place. But hey, that means the volley nerf is doing exactly what they wanted it to do I guess.

I will play how I want to play. In regards to your comment my RAs and temps need to change to suit a different spec.

Why else would archers spec in volley... for keep fights .

Oh you can play the way you want to play. Just not with spamming Volley exclusively anymore. Your bow shots are still better than before.

He´s right with his assessment. The archer population skyrocketed with the archer changes, dealing (among others) increased AoE bow damage (ignoring BT) with Volley, thus attracting many more players to the archer classes. The change explicitely aimed to revert some of the bulge in archer population ´cause it is detrimental to the game. So it´s intended and expected that somebody stops playing their archer over the Volley nerf. In telling you´re selling your archer temps (specific to using Volley?) you admit you were part of the problem and now are part of the solution. Good news for the server.

I hope that the nerf works well enough so that archery and PF lines stay untouched. PF is what sets Rangers apart from the other archers ´cause it works so well with both their melee and archery specs. If you want to make the other archers as attractive, buff their respective strengths. The BC line has lots of potential for improvement.
Fri 4 Sep 2020 6:36 PM by Vkejai
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Sep 2020 4:57 PM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Sep 2020 2:30 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Sep 2020 9:32 AM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 11:52 PM
Gutted, about volley, gonna have sell my temps now , Ranger and Scout :/

If you only played the class to volley behind walls in siege fights then you probably never should have played either in the first place. But hey, that means the volley nerf is doing exactly what they wanted it to do I guess.

I will play how I want to play. In regards to your comment my RAs and temps need to change to suit a different spec.

Why else would archers spec in volley... for keep fights .

Oh you can play the way you want to play. Just not with spamming Volley exclusively anymore. Your bow shots are still better than before.

He´s right with his assessment. The archer population skyrocketed with the archer changes, dealing (among others) increased AoE bow damage (ignoring BT) with Volley, thus attracting many more players to the archer classes. The change explicitely aimed to revert some of the bulge in archer population ´cause it is detrimental to the game. So it´s intended and expected that somebody stops playing their archer over the Volley nerf. In telling you´re selling your archer temps (specific to using Volley?) you admit you were part of the problem and now are part of the solution. Good news for the server.


I hope that the nerf works well enough so that archery and PF lines stay untouched. PF is what sets Rangers apart from the other archers ´cause it works so well with both their melee and archery specs. If you want to make the other archers as attractive, buff their respective strengths. The BC line has lots of potential for improvement.

I will need a new temp to change my Ranger to melee spec now, my Scout will need to change to slash , my Hunter is fine as he was melee anyways. I would agree with the nerf if you could actually contribute to defending a keep , but the way murder holes are and the placing GT from a ram driver bullshit , I dont agree with it. Nerf the damage volley does would have been suffice. How can a bow do more damage than a catapult I will never know and the same range.
Sat 5 Sep 2020 8:46 AM by Johny Rousquille
Ranger hit me ( thane ) at 900 + and you say Potential Archer changes,
I laugh, I laugh out loud
Sat 5 Sep 2020 3:10 PM by Dakkhon
Then your temp sucks. Lets be honest here. My scout is RR7 and I never hit a Thane for 900 unless they are unbuffed lol. Nice try.
Sat 5 Sep 2020 3:44 PM by Johny Rousquille
you also say that it is the fault of the person who receives the arrow? 722 a moment on my hunter,

I think it's you who should respect, lol !
Sun 6 Sep 2020 2:42 PM by Messerjockel
Thank you grünesschaf for changing the cool down to 90 seconds.
Now there is no way to defend towers because the enemy deploys just 1 or 3 catapults and when gate is down sos to the top and the catapults damage protects the enemies on the roof.

With that said, thank you for starting a review of siege warfare. Catapults need to be greatly nerfed. Would also make battle more personal and more fun.

BR
Flup, hib
Mon 7 Sep 2020 1:54 AM by Dialh
I spent the time to make a scout for each of our keeps, for defense. The 90 sec cool down is way to much to be effective. There are many times when there are only a few of defending a keep. 3 to 5 players. No way we can keep anyone out. But there is a chance to delay the take long enough for a zerg to run by. I usually target a cat or the ram, making them less effective and times driving off the operator. Now with the 90 sec, my scouts are worthless for defense. If the problem was Rangers, the fix should be on the Rangers. THis is not the fist time you punished all archers because of Hib stealthers.
Mon 7 Sep 2020 7:52 AM by Sepplord
Messerjockel wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 2:42 PM
Thank you grünesschaf for changing the cool down to 90 seconds.
Now there is no way to defend towers because the enemy deploys just 1 or 3 catapults and when gate is down sos to the top and the catapults damage protects the enemies on the roof.

With that said, thank you for starting a review of siege warfare. Catapults need to be greatly nerfed. Would also make battle more personal and more fun.

BR
Flup, hib

how did volley change that scenario?
Sun 13 Sep 2020 6:10 AM by dbeattie71
Dakkhon wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 3:10 PM
Then your temp sucks. Lets be honest here. My scout is RR7 and I never hit a Thane for 900 unless they are unbuffed lol. Nice try.

Try it with 400 dex.
Sun 13 Sep 2020 6:20 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Dakkhon wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 3:10 PM
Then your temp sucks. Lets be honest here. My scout is RR7 and I never hit a Thane for 900 unless they are unbuffed lol. Nice try.

Maybe you shouldn't compare the damage of the best archer with 3 strength relics to the worse archer with none.
Tue 15 Sep 2020 1:10 AM by Horus
I'm not really personally bothered by the removal of Volley from the game(and this is virtually a removal). I respeced to more single target DPS ras. Now when I add on fights to support my realm mates I do more damage/sec.

That being said it is undeniable it hurt hib as a realm. It is no coincidence that when you have a high population of players using a particular keep take/defense weapon and you took it away, all of the sudden Hib lost all relics and the bg now gets rolled in keep defense/take. Maybe that was the intent?

In any case, I'm enjoying the new playstyle I have been forced to take. I rarely run with the BG or worry about keep defense or takes. I look for more fights to add on and hunt expers in their frontier.
Tue 15 Sep 2020 2:45 AM by Freedomcall
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Sep 2020 1:10 AM
I'm not really personally bothered by the removal of Volley from the game(and this is virtually a removal). I respeced to more single target DPS ras. Now when I add on fights to support my realm mates I do more damage/sec.

That being said it is undeniable it hurt hib as a realm. It is no coincidence that when you have a high population of players using a particular keep take/defense weapon and you took it away, all of the sudden Hib lost all relics and the bg now gets rolled in keep defense/take. Maybe that was the intent?

In any case, I'm enjoying the new playstyle I have been forced to take. I rarely run with the BG or worry about keep defense or takes. I look for more fights to add on and hunt expers in their frontier.

As lots of rangers liked to say on forum, all the archers had access to volley.
Why does volley nerf conclude as hib nerf?
Ranger nerf never happened so far.

If you wanna take your same logic to gtaoe, nerfing gtaoe was to nerf Alb as a whole and that was the intention of devs?
Tue 15 Sep 2020 6:46 AM by Noashakra
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Sep 2020 2:45 AM
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Sep 2020 1:10 AM
I'm not really personally bothered by the removal of Volley from the game(and this is virtually a removal). I respeced to more single target DPS ras. Now when I add on fights to support my realm mates I do more damage/sec.

That being said it is undeniable it hurt hib as a realm. It is no coincidence that when you have a high population of players using a particular keep take/defense weapon and you took it away, all of the sudden Hib lost all relics and the bg now gets rolled in keep defense/take. Maybe that was the intent?

In any case, I'm enjoying the new playstyle I have been forced to take. I rarely run with the BG or worry about keep defense or takes. I look for more fights to add on and hunt expers in their frontier.

As lots of rangers liked to say on forum, all the archers had access to volley.
Why does volley nerf conclude as hib nerf?
Ranger nerf never happened so far.

If you wanna take your same logic to gtaoe, nerfing gtaoe was to nerf Alb as a whole and that was the intention of devs?

It's because on hib the gtae is only on the eld void. It's the weakest spec of the three, and is kind of useless outside keep fights.
There are maybe only one or two per bg on a good day, so rangers were filling this role.
Tue 15 Sep 2020 1:48 PM by Horus
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Sep 2020 2:45 AM
As lots of rangers liked to say on forum, all the archers had access to volley.
Why does volley nerf conclude as hib nerf?
Ranger nerf never happened so far.

If you wanna take your same logic to gtaoe, nerfing gtaoe was to nerf Alb as a whole and that was the intention of devs?

It is because of population. Rangers are a popular class in Hib and helped out immensely in keep / tower warfare. If you remove an ability, the realm with highest population of toons that use that ability is the one that is the most affected.

Your logic about GTAOE is flawed...
Why?
Yes, Alb has the most GTAOE by far due to generally accepted fact that the earth wiz spell line is so much better than any other especially for BG warfare.. and there are a ton of earth wizards.

However unlike volley, the tweaks to GTAOE did not make it unusable. And you get it no matter what as it is a spell, no RPSs needed to be spent for it so it will still be used.

The reality is the GTAOE LOS nerf, again, hurt Hib and Mid more than Alb. Alb still has plenty of earth wizzies to cover an entire tower/keep with gtaoe. Mid and Hib now cannot compete because the nerf hurts a smaller population of GTAOERs more. Now you need a few gtaoers to do the wide coverage interrupt job 1 could do before. Alb has the gtoae population to accommodate this full coverage. Hib and Mid do not.

Ironically, one of the nice defensive countermeasures again pods of earth wizzes gtaoeing spam was volley. So much for that...
Tue 15 Sep 2020 1:54 PM by Cipon
So if i undertstand,

When u nerf volley u nerf hib because they have the higher population of archers
When u nerf gtaoe u nerf hib (and mid) because they have the lower population of gtaoe casters

Am i correct?
Tue 15 Sep 2020 4:23 PM by Horus
Cipon wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Sep 2020 1:54 PM
So if i undertstand,

When u nerf volley u nerf hib because they have the higher population of archers
When u nerf gtaoe u nerf hib (and mid) because they have the lower population of gtaoe casters

Am i correct?

Contextually, Yes
Because the definition of "nerf" is not static. The specifics of the change are what matters. Your statement is meaningless without defining the specifics of the nerf.
It is like saying "change" is bad without specifying what the "change" is. The word is meaningless in that context until defined.

For example

If you changed volley with the same change to gtoae (everything else the same, just need LoS from GT), it would hurt alb and mid more than hib. Why? Because even though hib would have more toons affected by the change, they could overcome the change as they could flood an area with more volley GTs due to population,

A more apt comparison, would be for example, pet charm (although not perfect as this is not an RA).
If dev said we are removing the ability the charm pets from the game, technically it would affect every realm... Yet it would definitely affect alb more due to the amount of minstrels and sorc.
Tue 22 Sep 2020 9:07 AM by Freedomcall
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Sep 2020 1:48 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Sep 2020 2:45 AM
As lots of rangers liked to say on forum, all the archers had access to volley.
Why does volley nerf conclude as hib nerf?
Ranger nerf never happened so far.

If you wanna take your same logic to gtaoe, nerfing gtaoe was to nerf Alb as a whole and that was the intention of devs?

It is because of population. Rangers are a popular class in Hib and helped out immensely in keep / tower warfare. If you remove an ability, the realm with highest population of toons that use that ability is the one that is the most affected.

Your logic about GTAOE is flawed...
Why?
Yes, Alb has the most GTAOE by far due to generally accepted fact that the earth wiz spell line is so much better than any other especially for BG warfare.. and there are a ton of earth wizards.

However unlike volley, the tweaks to GTAOE did not make it unusable. And you get it no matter what as it is a spell, no RPSs needed to be spent for it so it will still be used.

The reality is the GTAOE LOS nerf, again, hurt Hib and Mid more than Alb. Alb still has plenty of earth wizzies to cover an entire tower/keep with gtaoe. Mid and Hib now cannot compete because the nerf hurts a smaller population of GTAOERs more. Now you need a few gtaoers to do the wide coverage interrupt job 1 could do before. Alb has the gtoae population to accommodate this full coverage. Hib and Mid do not.

Ironically, one of the nice defensive countermeasures again pods of earth wizzes gtaoeing spam was volley. So much for that...

It's funny that every change results into HIB NERF in your point of view lmao
And your statement about "the number gap of GTAOEers by realms" is totally wrong.
Sure, RED GTAOE is hard to get as an eld cuz, as people like to say, Void Eld is very rare to get.
But just for interrupting purpose, and possibly "cover an entire tower/keep with gtaoe" as you said,
it isn't required to be red one at all, and even gray one can do the job very well.

- Is getting gray gtaoe difficult for an Eld?
NO.

- Then is an Eld a rare class in Hib?
No, again.

So if the eld in zerg doesn't have GTAOE, it is totally their own problem, not about realm imbalance.
The only eld spec that is unable to get GTAOE at all is light eld, but everyone knows elds can benefit the most when they are mana spec in zerg.
And as a mana eld or split spec eld, GTAOE is not hard to get.

I personally think Umbrella is one of the best elds in Phoenix who knows how to play an eld,
and I had chance to hear from him how to spec an eld properly while doing pug with him.
He suggested quite a few different specs, but some of the specs he always recommends is 16/49/16 or 26/39/26.
You know he has been playing in small/8 a lot as well, so you won't say those specs only works in zerg.

So "It is hard to get GTAOE as an Eld" is a totally wrong argument and a myth.
Tue 22 Sep 2020 9:39 AM by DJ2000
It is not hard to get the smallest GT AoE as an Eld or Rm, that is correct.

If every Eld or Rm would get GT AoE, would there still be a difference to Albion? Yes, as they have the biggest population.

Pretty sure u remember it wrong to spec 26/39/26. The only viably steps for Void Sub-Specs are 16, 24 and 33. Anything higher than that and its not sup-spec anymore.
So it prolly was 28/39/24.

Yet, this is not about Eld/RM or GTAoE. Volley has disappeared from the Game which, imo, is not what should have been the goal. w/e
Tue 22 Sep 2020 9:51 AM by Freedomcall
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Sep 2020 9:39 AM
It is not hard to get the smallest GT AoE as an Eld or Rm, that is correct.

If every Eld or Rm would get GT AoE, would there still be a difference to Albion? Yes, as they have the biggest population.

Pretty sure u remember it wrong to spec 26/39/26. The only viably steps for Void Sub-Specs are 16, 24 and 33. Anything higher than that and its not sup-spec anymore.
So it prolly was 28/39/24.

Yet, this is not about Eld/RM or GTAoE. Volley has disappeared from the Game which, imo, is not what should have been the goal. w/e

No I didn't remember it wrong, although the spec can be optimized based on their preference.
And yes, GTAOE has nothing to do with Volley change, but I had to refer to it cuz a person was arguing that nerfing volley was the dev's intention to nerf hib lol

But what's that about "They have the biggest population"?
You mean population of earth wizz? or albs?
Tue 22 Sep 2020 10:20 AM by Centenario
The Volley nerf (90sec cd) might just be a quick fix, to solve the volley spam while dev think of what to do to fix it correctly.
We would just have to try to find that correct solution, to assist them.
Tue 22 Sep 2020 3:28 PM by Lokkjim
Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Sep 2020 10:20 AM
The Volley nerf (90sec cd) might just be a quick fix, to solve the volley spam while dev think of what to do to fix it correctly.
We would just have to try to find that correct solution, to assist them.

I think the 90-second cooldown was chosen because it was the easiest to implement. I think if the cooldown was smaller (30 seconds or so) the damage output of volley should be decreased.
Tue 22 Sep 2020 9:48 PM by Cadebrennus
Tanks actually guarding Casters (while holding a DoT reactive Shield) would have made a Volley nerf unnecessary, but apparently it's easier to whine than to use one's brain and inherent class skills.
Tue 22 Sep 2020 11:39 PM by Lokkjim
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Sep 2020 9:48 PM
Tanks actually guarding Casters (while holding a DoT reactive Shield) would have made a Volley nerf unnecessary, but apparently it's easier to whine than to use one's brain and inherent class skills.

When the tank is on defense, sure, that sounds like a good idea. On the attack though, the tank should be on the ram or climbing walls moreso than standing idly by just to protect someone from one type of AoE damage.
Sat 26 Sep 2020 2:10 PM by Horus
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Sep 2020 9:07 AM
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Sep 2020 1:48 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Sep 2020 2:45 AM
As lots of rangers liked to say on forum, all the archers had access to volley.
Why does volley nerf conclude as hib nerf?
Ranger nerf never happened so far.

If you wanna take your same logic to gtaoe, nerfing gtaoe was to nerf Alb as a whole and that was the intention of devs?

It is because of population. Rangers are a popular class in Hib and helped out immensely in keep / tower warfare. If you remove an ability, the realm with highest population of toons that use that ability is the one that is the most affected.

Your logic about GTAOE is flawed...
Why?
Yes, Alb has the most GTAOE by far due to generally accepted fact that the earth wiz spell line is so much better than any other especially for BG warfare.. and there are a ton of earth wizards.

However unlike volley, the tweaks to GTAOE did not make it unusable. And you get it no matter what as it is a spell, no RPSs needed to be spent for it so it will still be used.

The reality is the GTAOE LOS nerf, again, hurt Hib and Mid more than Alb. Alb still has plenty of earth wizzies to cover an entire tower/keep with gtaoe. Mid and Hib now cannot compete because the nerf hurts a smaller population of GTAOERs more. Now you need a few gtaoers to do the wide coverage interrupt job 1 could do before. Alb has the gtoae population to accommodate this full coverage. Hib and Mid do not.

Ironically, one of the nice defensive countermeasures again pods of earth wizzes gtaoeing spam was volley. So much for that...

It's funny that every change results into HIB NERF in your point of view lmao
And your statement about "the number gap of GTAOEers by realms" is totally wrong.
Sure, RED GTAOE is hard to get as an eld cuz, as people like to say, Void Eld is very rare to get.
But just for interrupting purpose, and possibly "cover an entire tower/keep with gtaoe" as you said,
it isn't required to be red one at all, and even gray one can do the job very well.

- Is getting gray gtaoe difficult for an Eld?
NO.

- Then is an Eld a rare class in Hib?
No, again.

So if the eld in zerg doesn't have GTAOE, it is totally their own problem, not about realm imbalance.
The only eld spec that is unable to get GTAOE at all is light eld, but everyone knows elds can benefit the most when they are mana spec in zerg.
And as a mana eld or split spec eld, GTAOE is not hard to get.

I personally think Umbrella is one of the best elds in Phoenix who knows how to play an eld,
and I had chance to hear from him how to spec an eld properly while doing pug with him.
He suggested quite a few different specs, but some of the specs he always recommends is 16/49/16 or 26/39/26.
You know he has been playing in small/8 a lot as well, so you won't say those specs only works in zerg.

So "It is hard to get GTAOE as an Eld" is a totally wrong argument and a myth.

I'm not saying it is a hib nerf as a matter of opinion. This is a matter of FACT based on the data. This volley nerf went in for one reason and that was because there were a lot of rangers with volley...and they used it...and alb and mid cried about it non stop.
Sun 27 Sep 2020 6:12 AM by Cadebrennus
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Sep 2020 11:39 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Sep 2020 9:48 PM
Tanks actually guarding Casters (while holding a DoT reactive Shield) would have made a Volley nerf unnecessary, but apparently it's easier to whine than to use one's brain and inherent class skills.

When the tank is on defense, sure, that sounds like a good idea. On the attack though, the tank should be on the ram or climbing walls moreso than standing idly by just to protect someone from one type of AoE damage.

I think that this is a good thing. It forces attackers into choices: more people on rams, more people attacking the walls, or more defense for the Casters
This topic is locked and you can't reply.

Return to Planned Changes or the latest topics