Raise or Remove Quickness Cap for Melee?

I always wondered why there was a quickness cap of 250. That means a base of 82 quickness with red dex/qui and 75 quickness from gear will cap you.

Now I understand the quickness cap for bow attacks, that's a given, but for melee attacks it is more of a punishment for having a race/class combo that brings you over that 82qui mark. The most this could be abused, per se, is by a luri ranger who puts all points into quickness on start up and caps aug quickness having a total of 337 quickness with their self buff. That would equal 57.4% attack speed from quickness vs 40%.

Meaning the slowest 1h Pierce weapon (Broodmother Fang) with 4.3spd would swing once per 1.83seconds vs 2.58seconds with 250cap.

But if you factor in Dual wield haste with a 2.3speed dirk off hand ((4.3+2.3)/2)=3.3x0.6 you are already swinging at 1.98 seconds per swing.

Would it be such a big deal to remove this cap? Should it be raised to 300 cap which is 50%? or should it stay the same. They already removed the cap for dex casting speed. no other stats are capped and I think it hinders many races/classes combos from being at their full potential when a race loses out on other starting stats for quickness.

Mon 13 Jul 2020 1:53 AM by

gruenesschaf

The biggest issue is that many chars have been made with exactly that cap in mind, be it via the starting point distribution or leaving some qui out of the templates or whatever and they would have made different choices without the cap.

Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:17 PM by Bradekes

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Jul 2020 1:53 AM
The biggest issue is that many chars have been made with exactly that cap in mind, be it via the starting point distribution or leaving some qui out of the templates or whatever and they would have made different choices without the cap.

I can see your point here and it's 100% correct. I have chosen races or adjusted pretty much every melee char I have to have a specific aug quickness or to be created with 82qui.

My suggestion would be to lower the cost of the racial/starting stat adjust stones for a week after the change or to give a free nontradable racial/stat stones that last a month to classes that gain quickness as they level. Because they would need time to figure out the new dps mechanics of having higher quickness vs damage stat.

The gear would be easy to overcome. Just make a mythrian that costs an acceptable amount of money or a quest that gives 21quickness for all realms as thats how much a luri who put no points into quickness at creation would leave out for 250quickness.

But the overall end goal would be for true racial/class balance which I think most players would appreciate.(unless they play trolls only)

Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:38 PM by DJ2000

By removing the Cap you would widen the gap between the Races, not closing it.

Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:45 PM by Bradekes

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:38 PM
By removing the Cap you would widen the gap between the Races, not closing it.

That is the point. Str never caps for a troll who starts off with 100 but quickness does for a luri who starts off with 80. How is that balanced? The goal would be to balance not closing stat gaps. If I thought that was a good idea I would of requested strength capping at 300

This affects mid and hib more, with valkyn race for sb/hunter luri/elf being the only races for NS and overlapping quickness is not an option for them, they just lose utility just on their starting stats. That isn't balanced.

Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:54 PM by gotwqqd

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:45 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:38 PM
By removing the Cap you would widen the gap between the Races, not closing it.

That is the point. Str never caps for a troll who starts off with 100 but quickness does for a luri who starts off with 80. How is that balanced? The goal would be to balance not closing stat gaps. If I thought that was a good idea I would of requested strength capping at 300

This affects mid and hib more, with valkyn race for sb/hunter luri/elf being the only races for NS and overlapping quickness is not an option for them, they just lose utility just on their starting stats. That isn't balanced.

Yes
But a luri ranger for instance can forgo any aug quick and spend RA points elsewhere

Mon 13 Jul 2020 1:15 PM by Bradekes

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:54 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:45 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:38 PM
By removing the Cap you would widen the gap between the Races, not closing it.

That is the point. Str never caps for a troll who starts off with 100 but quickness does for a luri who starts off with 80. How is that balanced? The goal would be to balance not closing stat gaps. If I thought that was a good idea I would of requested strength capping at 300

This affects mid and hib more, with valkyn race for sb/hunter luri/elf being the only races for NS and overlapping quickness is not an option for them, they just lose utility just on their starting stats. That isn't balanced.
Yes
But a luri ranger for instance can forgo any aug quick and spend RA points elsewhere

No a luri ranger is 21 quickness over 250 without doing anything but having 75quickness on items that is losing 14utility just because of race. A troll, for instance, loses no utility and doesn't need to spec aug str, but also isn't hindered if he chooses to spec aug strength. That is not balanced. You guys are proving my point more than making your own.

And to that same point. No one HAS to get aug qui they can choose other RA too. Having 250quickness is not a Must Have it is just an obtainable number anyone can reach. But an avalonian will never reach 390str even with aug str maxxed that a troll can with only starting points

Mon 13 Jul 2020 2:30 PM by DJ2000

Str and Qui are 2 completely separate Stats that have nothing in common and are also used for completely different maths/calculations.

Your point is:
I want a Lurikeen/Elf/highQuiRace get the full benefit of its Race/Stats allocation, that other races cannot archieve, EVEN if i put 75 Qui on his Gear, while having a 93-Spec Buff. Just as a Troll gets when he puts 75 Str on his Gear etc...

Your Point is:
There is no point putting any Statpoints into Qui with a High-Qui-Race at creation, as it is possible to max out Qui with max Gear/Buffs (and the +23 at lvl50, gained through being secondary Class stat as an Assassin/Archer), to the current Hardcap of 250 Qui. And putting those Starting Points elsewhere is not an option as it would "lose utility".

Did i get this right?

Mon 13 Jul 2020 2:58 PM by Bradekes

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Jul 2020 2:30 PM
Str and Qui are 2 completely separate Stats that have nothing in common and are also used for completely different maths/calculations.

Your point is:
I want a Lurikeen/Elf/highQuiRace get the full benefit of its Race/Stats allocation, that other races cannot archieve, EVEN if i put 75 Qui on his Gear, while having a 93-Spec Buff. Just as a Troll gets when he puts 75 Str on his Gear etc...

Your Point is:
There is no point putting any Statpoints into Qui with a High-Qui-Race at creation, as it is possible to max out Qui with max Gear/Buffs (and the +23 at lvl50, gained through being secondary Class stat as an Assassin/Archer), to the current Hardcap of 250 Qui. And putting those Starting Points elsewhere is not an option as it would "lose utility".

Did i get this right?

For one, they do have plenty in common. They are both allocated differently among the races of the game in EQUAL PROPORTION. Meaning 10 strength is equal to 10 quickness as far as how it was intended to affect your character overall. This is clearly seen as all stats for races put on an average is 60 even. Another example is in templates utility is equal for all stats which 1 stat point equals 2/3rds of a utility point.

For your second point, exactly! No other race can achieve the strength of a troll, why should your troll achieve the quickness of a much more agile lurikeen or valkyn!?

And there is no benefit to putting qui in starting stat for ranger infact you'd need to be able to remove 21 quickness from lurikeen and add that list utility elsewhere. If i could put those points into other stats it would be balanced.

AFAIK this was put into place back when you could allocate all 30 ability points into a single ability at creation so a troll could have 130str and a luri could have 110 quickness at level 1. It's quite an archaic adjustment.

And yes, you seem to understand the idea but aren't giving any reason as to oppose my logic for this change?

Mon 13 Jul 2020 4:35 PM by DJ2000

I may haven't beend endorsing, but I wasn't opposing.
In fact, i wouldn't mind lifting the 250 cap that much, as "there is of yet" not many ways to go beyond 250, as long as 1,5 Swing Cap remains untouched.
The interaction with slow Weapons would have to be monitored (mostly LA, but also CD and DW)
This still couldn't be called "Balancing Races" though.

Mon 13 Jul 2020 6:32 PM by Nephamael

I may haven't beend endorsing, but I wasn't opposing.
In fact, i wouldn't mind lifting the 250 cap that much, as "there is of yet" not many ways to go beyond 250, as long as 1,5 Swing Cap remains untouched.
The interaction with slow Weapons would have to be monitored (mostly LA, but also CD and DW)
This still couldn't be called "Balancing Races" though.

In general i am in favor of removing any qui cap for attackspeed, just as there is no cap for any other stat.

But i do agree the biggest impact of this might be for svg/zerker.

And yes, this is a race balance approach, kobold warriors/svg would become viable for example.

Mon 13 Jul 2020 6:36 PM by Nephamael

The biggest issue is that many chars have been made with exactly that cap in mind, be it via the starting point distribution or leaving some qui out of the templates or whatever and they would have made different choices without the cap.

I share your concern and suggest just giving every character created before the change a free stat respec.

Templates aren't usually undercapping any stats and if they do they can easily be done new (and better).