Mastery of Stealth and unforeseen consequences to stealth-warfare dynamics

Let me start out that I'm trying out different characters in anticipation of the release of Phoenix. And while my points might be biased, I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

On "old live DAOC" stealth-detection was quite easy, all classes (except assassins) had the same detection. Archers detected other stealthers with the following range-formula:

Detection-range = 125 + (50 - enemy Stealth-spec)*25 . In essence any stealther with 50 modified stealth would not be detected until he was in 125 range. Assassins used the same formula, but rather than getting a 125-bonus they would get a 250 bonus if they had more than 16 Stealth-spec to obtain the ability "Detect Hidden".

This was all fine and worked OK. People where moving slow (no MoS-speed) in stealth and since assassins could only see archers at 250 range, odds where that they would surf right past each other unless at choke-points. This is essentially the starter-point of how 1.65 (and thus Phoenix) is (see also : http://playphoenix.wiki/stealth-changes/ ). The link shows the same range-detection.

This is currently not the case how it is on Phoenix. For some bizarre reason assassins see archers (with 50 Stealth-spec) at like 600+ range (must be a bug, see https://tracker.playphoenix.online/issues/5a4fc7bf-44ba-4791-a275-277cc31b9386 ). Furthermore, the added MoS typically gives stealthers a 25% movement increase-speed. This means an archer stands out as a lighthouse to assassins and because of the MoS-speed he can attack the archer before the archer has a chance to detect him (at 125 range).

Assuming the detection-range of assassins get fixed to 250, the problem is only solved partially: The original detection-ranges (125 and 250 range) worked because everyone was ~25% slower. I would propose to increase the base detection-range to 160~ and for assassins with Detect Hidden to 320~ to compensate for the higher MoS-speed.

Mon 10 Sep 2018 6:09 AM by poisonclover

agreed!

Mon 10 Sep 2018 10:33 AM by

gruenesschaf

The detection ranges are already increased to 175 for all non detect hidden stealther and 350 when detect hidden is applied (50 bonus range that also gets doubled via dh), this bonus range depends on your stealth spec, having less than your level comp spec = less bonus.

Mon 10 Sep 2018 5:47 PM by inoeth

someting is still wrong here, as a stealther it is nearly impossible to get detected by a non stealth class. on live servers it was very much possible for a group to detect a stealther if he just stealthed and the whole grp was running around in a small area with the weapon drawn .
here as a stealther you are basicly invisible to the point where someone stands right on top of you and both players not moving.

i think that gives stealthers an extra amount of "invincibility" which they should not have.

i played hunter for several years and i remember it to be very hard sometimes to escape a grp when they try to find you. and btw im not talking about ring of dances or stuff like that

Tue 11 Sep 2018 4:13 PM by poisonclover

I've noticed so many issues with stealth and there pretty hard to repeat honestly. IE: Slamming an assassin while both parties stealthed, just a she disappears out of vision., they will remain stealthed and I cant even find them but yet they have taken damage and are stunned.

What's the point, I mean every time you increase your realm level you just drop a point in stealth and gain damage or defense and all you lose is movement speed if you drop under a mastery of stealth level. Which is what every 5 levels roughly? Completely Giving you an edge over any other stealthier with less realm points.
Just saying that if I decide to spec 40 stealth, and any other stealth class in the game decides to spec 34 I should have some kind of advantage while stealthed. even if you make it as long as im standing still. anything would be better then nothing at this point.

I cant even see my minstrel friend in stealth and he has almost 10 less spec points then me. I lose him ridiculously fast. Makes zero sense what so ever, I don't remember it being this bad ever.

Tue 11 Sep 2018 4:14 PM by poisonclover

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Sep 2018 5:47 PM
someting is still wrong here, as a stealther it is nearly impossible to get detected by a non stealth class. on live servers it was very much possible for a group to detect a stealther if he just stealthed and the whole grp was running around in a small area with the weapon drawn .
here as a stealther you are basicly invisible to the point where someone stands right on top of you and both players not moving.

i think that gives stealthers an extra amount of "invincibility" which they should not have.

i played hunter for several years and i remember it to be very hard sometimes to escape a grp when they try to find you. and btw im not talking about ring of dances or stuff like that

You're doing something wrong, because groups doing doughnuts have popped me out of stealth multiple times.

Wed 12 Sep 2018 1:59 PM by inoeth

poisonclover wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Sep 2018 4:14 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Sep 2018 5:47 PM
someting is still wrong here, as a stealther it is nearly impossible to get detected by a non stealth class. on live servers it was very much possible for a group to detect a stealther if he just stealthed and the whole grp was running around in a small area with the weapon drawn .
here as a stealther you are basicly invisible to the point where someone stands right on top of you and both players not moving.

i think that gives stealthers an extra amount of "invincibility" which they should not have.

i played hunter for several years and i remember it to be very hard sometimes to escape a grp when they try to find you. and btw im not talking about ring of dances or stuff like that

You're doing something wrong, because groups doing doughnuts have popped me out of stealth multiple times.

im not saying its impossible but very hard nad it used to be much easier back on live servers... back in the days i had to learn how to dodge those searching attempts but here you basicly stealth and stand still and they wont find you in 9/10 attempts^^

Wed 12 Sep 2018 2:01 PM by poisonclover

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Sep 2018 1:59 PM
poisonclover wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Sep 2018 4:14 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Sep 2018 5:47 PM
someting is still wrong here, as a stealther it is nearly impossible to get detected by a non stealth class. on live servers it was very much possible for a group to detect a stealther if he just stealthed and the whole grp was running around in a small area with the weapon drawn .
here as a stealther you are basicly invisible to the point where someone stands right on top of you and both players not moving.

i think that gives stealthers an extra amount of "invincibility" which they should not have.

i played hunter for several years and i remember it to be very hard sometimes to escape a grp when they try to find you. and btw im not talking about ring of dances or stuff like that

You're doing something wrong, because groups doing doughnuts have popped me out of stealth multiple times.

im not saying its impossible but very hard nad it used to be much easier back on live servers... back in the days i had to learn how to dodge those searching attempts but here you basicly stealth and stand still and they wont find you in 9/10 attempts^^

them running around on speed 6 doesn't help, they are seeing the stealther just aren't able to target them fast enough.