(PVE) Change Taunt Styles in all Realms

My suggestion is to standardise the Taunt styles in all Realms. Currently their defense and attack bonuses are all over the place:

Alb:
Slash Taunt: 0 Attack Bonus -10 Defense Malus
Thrust: 10 Attack Bonus -15 Defense Malus
Crush: 10 Attack Bonus -10 Defense Malus
Polearms: 5 Attack Bonus -10 Defense Malus
Two Handed: 5 Attack Bonus -10 Defense Malus

Mid
Hammer: 10 Attack Bonus -10 Defense Malus
Sword: 15 Attack Bonus -10 Defense Malus
Axe: 10 Attack Bonus -10 Defense Malus

Hib
Blunt: 10 Attack Bonus -10 Defense Malus
Blades: 10 Attack Bonus -10 Defense Malus
Piercing: 10 Attack Bonus -15 Defense Malus
Large Weapons: 10 Attack Bonus -10 Defense Malus
Celtic Spear: 10 Attack Bonus -10 Defense Malus

My suggestion would be to set them all to +10 Attack (to hit) bonus and -10 Defense Malus to go with the majority of them and to have Taunt=Taunt and it be an easier choice which weapon you use for Taunting.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 7:12 AM by jhaerik

I think the worst offenders are H2H and Scythe

Wild Call (H2H)
To Hit Bonus 0
Defense Bonus -10
Growth Rate 0.90000
Endurance 10

Taunting Scythe (Scythe)
To Hit Bonus 0
Defense Bonus -10
Growth Rate 0.59000
Endurance 10

The Savage anytime growth rate is through the roof but had no bonus to hit. The VW one does the damage damage as every other taunt.. but for some reason also has no bonus to hit

My personal thought as something to look at for the style rework... is taunt styles should be just that. They shouldn't deal great damage. Other anytime styles should be used for that.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 7:19 AM by Blitze

Don’t remove variety for the sake of it.

Also looking at taunt styles in isolation is foolish. Look at the whole picture...

VWs/Savage/Reav have terrible anytimes, including taunts. If they improve them then their awesome positionals will have to take a nerf. This would make the classes less interesting and feel less like they should (in my opinion)

Also, as a counterpoint Friar has best taunt in the game and terribly low damage positionals.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 8:05 AM by jhaerik

Blitze wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 7:19 AM
Don’t remove variety for the sake of it.

Also looking at taunt styles in isolation is foolish. Look at the whole picture...

VWs/Savage/Reav have terrible anytimes, including taunts. If they improve them then their awesome positionals will have to take a nerf. This would make the classes less interesting and feel less like they should (in my opinion)

Also, as a counterpoint Friar has best taunt in the game and terribly low damage positionals.

Actually the savage anytime is pretty amazing, the the VW positional styles aren't anything to write home about. All of their damage is tied behind a 3 part side chain that rarely ever connects between misses, fumbles, and PBT.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 8:15 AM by FunusGaming

I would like all Taunts to have the same basic stats just to make them all equally viable to be used... i only looked at the styles available to the Heavy Tanks though, thanks for bringing the others up.

If it is the Taunt styles i would like to have variance removed, all other styles i like the multiple differences they have... but if the weapon of your choice has nice effects but your taunt style is completely useless compared to others it might put some people off of picking the weapon like they like best.

This does not include Scythe, h2h, staff, dw, cd and la ... as they are basically the only choices those classes usually have.

Alsoo i only want the to hit and defensive bonus normalized, not the Growth rates.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 9:11 AM by Blitze

Homogenising style lines so they have similar taunts isn’t helpful as taunts are anytime and some style lines should have better anytimes than others.

The overarching issue is that some style lines are just a bit useless and fixing them by making everything more similar is foolish
e.g. axe/sword in Midgard are crap because they do not have the utility of hammer. With its great low end anytime taunt and snare positionals. Instead of adding snare positionals and a great taunt to axe and sword just think what defines the line and find a way to buff that slightly. A good example would be to throw more bleeds into axe and more growth rates into sword...

Thu 9 Jul 2020 9:21 AM by Khrin

I don't see any problem with a pve-only component getting a microtwerk to iron out inconsistencies.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 10:24 AM by Lollie

I've never understood why a taunt wouldnt hvae +hit bonus, the whole point of the style is to grab aggro but at a cost to defence.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 10:55 AM by inoeth

Blitze wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 7:19 AM
Don’t remove variety for the sake of it.

Also looking at taunt styles in isolation is foolish. Look at the whole picture...

VWs/Savage/Reav have terrible anytimes, including taunts. If they improve them then their awesome positionals will have to take a nerf. This would make the classes less interesting and feel less like they should (in my opinion)

Also, as a counterpoint Friar has best taunt in the game and terribly low damage positionals.

friar taunt
0.7 gr
10 hit bonus
0 def bonus

no wonder you dont want changes.

its not enough that i win, others should lose!

Thu 9 Jul 2020 11:34 AM by Blitze

Homogenisation of taunt styles would affect friar, VW,savage,Reav the most. With friars taking a nerf and others getting a buff. Seems odd to me, as those high damage positional light tanks don’t need a better anytime to be very viable in RvR.

And I already said, friars best style is the anytime (taunt) and If you were to nerf that How would you compensate the class. It’s only last year That friars were the lowest RP earner (they’ve improved now but are still in the bottom 10)

You could significantly buff Friars positionals to decent growth rate positional or usable stuns.

Another similar argument could be made for Albion slash line with the non-taunt anytime Amythyst Slash, it is the best anytime in the game. To homogenise non-taunt anytimes thIs style would need a serious nerf and the slash line would need a serious buff elsewhere.

why change the theme of style lines to make all lines similar and all classes play similar.?

TLDR:
Friars have good anytime taunt, and good snares (a bit like mid hammer), no usable stuns and low damage positionals.
Reavers have poor anytime taunt, poor snares, some usable stuns and huge damage positionals.
Why smush these classes to be more similar?

Thu 9 Jul 2020 12:19 PM by gromet12

Blitze wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 11:34 AM
Homogenisation of taunt styles would affect friar, VW,savage,Reav the most. With friars taking a nerf and others getting a buff. Seems odd to me, as those high damage positional light tanks don’t need a better anytime to be very viable in RvR.

And I already said, friars best style is the anytime (taunt) and If you were to nerf that How would you compensate the class. It’s only last year That friars were the lowest RP earner (they’ve improved now but are still in the bottom 10)

You could significantly buff Friars positionals to decent growth rate positional or usable stuns.

Another similar argument could be made for Albion slash line with the non-taunt anytime Amythyst Slash, it is the best anytime in the game. To homogenise non-taunt anytimes thIs style would need a serious nerf and the slash line would need a serious buff elsewhere.

why change the theme of style lines to make all lines similar and all classes play similar.?

TLDR:
Friars have good anytime taunt, and good snares (a bit like mid hammer), no usable stuns and low damage positionals.
Reavers have poor anytime taunt, poor snares, some usable stuns and huge damage positionals.
Why smush these classes to be more similar?

Why increase the dmg factor of the Friars?

Thu 9 Jul 2020 12:48 PM by Bradekes

They should just remove taunt from the taunt styles all together and make a 100% on hit proc rate taunt toggle buff and keep the current styles more traditional.

This would also make melee more engaging for tanks and less pressing only 1 button when you're fighting some mobs.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 1:08 PM by Blitze

It’s a complicated system that just changing/moderating taunt styles to be more similar across all style lines would be a disaster in my opinion.

You have to look at a holistic look across all lines to decide what needs changing.
Then once decided; Start with little things in underused style lines, or fixing completely useless styles.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 1:28 PM by inoeth

Blitze wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 1:08 PM
It’s a complicated system that just changing/moderating taunt styles to be more similar across all style lines would be a disaster in my opinion.

You have to look at a holistic look across all lines to decide what needs changing.
Then once decided; Start with little things in underused style lines, or fixing completely useless styles.

why would that be a desaster? because suddenly some weapon lines become viable?

for example scouts, because they are discussed for a while now, have a really bad anytimer in thrust but a very good side style which cant be used that often though.
slash has an excellent anytimer but really bad positionals.
so basicly the scout is kind of forced into slash spec because of the better anytimer but then lacks alot because of missing ASR.
would it be a disaster if scouts could spec thrust, have the utility and a good anytimer? would it be a desaster for any other alb class that can spec thrust?

but yeah i agree all lines should generally looked at

Thu 9 Jul 2020 2:21 PM by Blitze

In the extreme... making every taunt style. Let’s say

Medium end
0.6 GR
Low bonus to hit
Low penalty to defence
Taunt.

This significantly nerfs friars, and slightly nerfs mid hammer. And buffs everyone else with reavers, VWs buffed the most.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 2:29 PM by Blitze

Also Alb thrust has a great ASR positional and amazing 44s snare. I see plenty of people using thrust on various classes & With the bleeds now not breaking CC, many of the other styles now get use.

Does thrust need a great anytime? If so should slash get a great snarestyle and ASRstyle to compensate?

Thu 9 Jul 2020 2:54 PM by Centenario

There is some kind of equilibrium that has to be kept; there is a balance between to hit bonus, defense bonus, style effect and other styles availability.

Let's take for example the reaver:
He has no good anytime, he is a positional class, his taunt is an anytime with no to-hit bonus and a comfortable growth rate.
If you would suddenly give it a +10 to hit bonus, it will powercreep other styles and it would mean that the reaver will get a good boost of his anytime strength.
Usually the line with the fastest weapon (pierce, thrust) has the worst taunt style, otherwise it would be mandatory to use that weapon line since it got the fastest weapon.

Anyway u can't just tweak the bonuses without looking also at the growth rates and the class strengths.

If a class never gets targeted, and they just spam taunt cause its got a good growth rate and to-hit bonus, with only downside to get a defense malus, then it changes the whole class.

another example:
The two-handed line best filler style is the taunt style, if you just boost it by 5 to-hit then its great buff overall, you'd have to lower growth rate by half to make bone bruiser better.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 3:06 PM by gromet12

Blitze wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 2:21 PM
In the extreme... making every taunt style. Let’s say

Medium end
0.6 GR
Low bonus to hit
Low penalty to defence
Taunt.

This significantly nerfs friars, and slightly nerfs mid hammer. And buffs everyone else with reavers, VWs buffed the most.

But Friars have had significant buffs so really it doesn't matter about that specific class.

And that is in no way a "nerf" to mid hammer? It's actually a slight buff to the GR being axe and sword anytime styles do slightly more dmg being the GR is higher. Hammer overall is better in mid because of the weapons and better chains (parry chain is the best, blockchain is the best, side chain the worst but get snare, the rear chain is best wtih snare than .94 while axe lower first attack/.95 2nd (no good effect) and sword .89 asr. If sword was changed as it was to add the snare, you would see people going sword for that style alone

And I still wouldn't use the diamondback on my reaver (.01 gr isnt going to help, "to hit bonus" only effects the hit/miss not defenses), I would much rather rely on python for the debuff (its low lvl so resisted often) and stick to working my side chain or block/parry chains....But other than the reaver, the other positional hybrids (reaver/savage/vw) are best using those styles, not a taunt in PVE...since this is talking about PVE. If the bonus to defense helped block/parry/evade, everyone would run around using the detaunt styles to increase the chance to landing a reactionary chain, this is the target got through every defense/buff I have, and now it's the hit/miss check

Thu 9 Jul 2020 3:23 PM by Blitze

“If a class never gets targeted, and they just spam taunt cause its got a good growth rate and to-hit bonus, with only downside to get a defense malus, then it changes the whole class.“

This is kinda how melee friars have always played in pve at this patch lvl. You have to use positionals that are worse than the taunt just so you don’t drag aggro off the tank.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 3:34 PM by Blitze

This type of stuff isn’t helpful.
“But Friars have had significant buffs so really it doesn't matter about that specific class.”

Firstly, just cos they have had buffs (to turn them from the least popular class on the server to the 9th least popular) Isn’t a good reason nerf them whilst supposedly fixing something else!

I’d argue it isn’t even a fix to make a blanket taunt style. It would break so many more things than just nerfing Friars and buffing reavers.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 3:45 PM by gromet12

Blitze wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 3:23 PM
“If a class never gets targeted, and they just spam taunt cause its got a good growth rate and to-hit bonus, with only downside to get a defense malus, then it changes the whole class.“

This is kinda how melee friars have always played in pve at this patch lvl. You have to use positionals that are worse than the taunt just so you don’t drag aggro off the tank.

Sounds like bad friars...You have one of the best side chains in alb and better than anything a majority of the classes have

FF/Banish vs boon lmao

Thu 9 Jul 2020 4:47 PM by Blitze

Yea in the 30+ levels, banish helps make you do a lil more damage. But friars positionals are not great damage (they have good snares though)

Positionals that are better damage
In alb,
2hnd sidechain
Pole backchain
DW side (& back?)
Flex side and back
CS side
Thrust side
Slash back

So every alb class has the option for better damage positionals than Friar.
And this is absolutely fine cos Friars have a great anytime and good snares.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 6:29 PM by Nephamael

The Savage anytime growth rate is through the roof but had no bonus to hit. The VW one does the damage damage as every other taunt.. but for some reason also has no bonus to hit

My personal thought as something to look at for the style rework... is taunt styles should be just that. They shouldn't deal great damage. Other anytime styles should be used for that.

svg has abyssmal weaponskill for an offtank, that is why it is absolutely ok to have high growthrates on all his styles, it's not easy to land them, main reason svg has 0 1v1 potential.

Sat 11 Jul 2020 9:20 AM by FunusGaming

If you guys could stop derailing this, please.
I will explicitly say i dont want the unique Style Lines touched.. only those used by several Classes plus Celtic Spear and Polearm.
I am sure one of my earlier posts already says something along those lines.

Sat 11 Jul 2020 9:31 AM by Blitze

Sorry,

Why include CS and Pole?

Sat 11 Jul 2020 5:24 PM by jhaerik

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 6:29 PM
The Savage anytime growth rate is through the roof but had no bonus to hit. The VW one does the damage damage as every other taunt.. but for some reason also has no bonus to hit

My personal thought as something to look at for the style rework... is taunt styles should be just that. They shouldn't deal great damage. Other anytime styles should be used for that.

svg has abyssmal weaponskill for an offtank, that is why it is absolutely ok to have high growthrates on all his styles, it's not easy to land them, main reason svg has 0 1v1 potential.

Good thing 90% of hibs/albs plays casters and supports ehh?

Sat 11 Jul 2020 5:25 PM by jhaerik

FunusGaming wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Jul 2020 9:20 AM
If you guys could stop derailing this, please.
I will explicitly say i dont want the unique Style Lines touched.. only those used by several Classes plus Celtic Spear and Polearm.
I am sure one of my earlier posts already says something along those lines.

Technically you didn't put that ion your original post, so we aren't really derailing anything.

Mon 13 Jul 2020 7:52 AM by FunusGaming

Blitze wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Jul 2020 9:31 AM
Sorry,

Why include CS and Pole?

Because the Classes that have access to those types have other Weapons as well.
Exception is Savage who also have multiple Weapon choices but only one for Multihitting.

In short my Suggestion is only aimed at Base weapons plus 2h, LW, CS and Pole.
All other styles either have no alternative or in the case of DW/CS/LA can just rely on the base weapon line for taunting.

Mon 13 Jul 2020 7:53 AM by FunusGaming

jhaerik wrote: Technically you didn't put that ion your original post, so we aren't really derailing anything.

FunusGaming wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 8:15 AM
I would like all Taunts to have the same basic stats just to make them all equally viable to be used... i only looked at the styles available to the Heavy Tanks though, thanks for bringing the others up.

If it is the Taunt styles i would like to have variance removed, all other styles i like the multiple differences they have... but if the weapon of your choice has nice effects but your taunt style is completely useless compared to others it might put some people off of picking the weapon like they like best.

This does not include Scythe, h2h, staff, dw, cd and la ... as they are basically the only choices those classes usually have.

Alsoo i only want the to hit and defensive bonus normalized, not the Growth rates.

Mon 13 Jul 2020 8:42 AM by daytonchambers

Personally I would love to see taunt itself be a toggle-able condition and not tied to a particular style.

Toggle on = damage reduced 10-15% threat increased 200%, or something to that effect.

Spamming one key for hours on end is lazy coding from the original game developers and is boring AF when you're tanking.

Mon 13 Jul 2020 6:44 PM by Nephamael

Good thing 90% of hibs/albs plays casters and supports ehh?

well low weaponskill means guard is stronger, if you are 2 lazy to guard you play the game wrong

Mon 13 Jul 2020 6:50 PM by gromet12

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Jul 2020 8:42 AM
Personally I would love to see taunt itself be a toggle-able condition and not tied to a particular style.

Toggle on = damage reduced 10-15% threat increased 200%, or something to that effect.

Spamming one key for hours on end is lazy coding from the original game developers and is boring AF when you're tanking.

DAOC is easy tanking, even having a “toggle on” ability without reworking the entire system it would still be easygoing to hold aggro. The difference is when you find that good warrior that tags them all with taunt style in an aoe setup, but DAOC is not built around exciting pve encounters, definitely wrong game imo for that