Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑Wed 1 Jul 2020 10:26 AMI created my hunter:
race, dwarf.
initial statistics, 15 agility 10 dexterity.
what should i train for exp? full bow?
I would like to get a spec with 50 spear (an rr5), a good spec for the low rank?
any advice for weapons to use?
Thank you
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑Wed 1 Jul 2020 1:59 PMThanks for the replies.
yes, 10s / 10d / 10q is probably better.
Dwarf okay?
Do you use ROG LT? are there other interesting weapons?
Zergcaptain wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 10:13 AMWhat is the reason to go +39 in weapon if there aren't any styles?
My impression is that damage is pretty much unchanged @ 52combined.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 11:15 AMZergcaptain wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 10:13 AMWhat is the reason to go +39 in weapon if there aren't any styles?
My impression is that damage is pretty much unchanged @ 52combined.
This is only the case if you're using a base weapon line (Axe) in combination with an advanced weapon line (Left Axe) while only using advanced weapon line styles. For a Hunter who only uses Sword or Spear, you get more damage from speccing higher than 39 Sword or Spear.
Zergcaptain wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 11:23 AMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 11:15 AMZergcaptain wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 10:13 AMWhat is the reason to go +39 in weapon if there aren't any styles?
My impression is that damage is pretty much unchanged @ 52combined.
This is only the case if you're using a base weapon line (Axe) in combination with an advanced weapon line (Left Axe) while only using advanced weapon line styles. For a Hunter who only uses Sword or Spear, you get more damage from speccing higher than 39 Sword or Spear.
Makes sense!
Thanks for clarification.
gromet12 wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 4:15 PMZergcaptain wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 11:23 AMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 11:15 AMZergcaptain wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 10:13 AMWhat is the reason to go +39 in weapon if there aren't any styles?
My impression is that damage is pretty much unchanged @ 52combined.
This is only the case if you're using a base weapon line (Axe) in combination with an advanced weapon line (Left Axe) while only using advanced weapon line styles. For a Hunter who only uses Sword or Spear, you get more damage from speccing higher than 39 Sword or Spear.
Makes sense!
Thanks for clarification.
2handers will continue to increase base dmg with spec above 52 comp, and the style dmg for both 1hand/2hand increases as you are higher in the spec. The difference maker is you have to decide if it is worth the points; you don’t increase defense penetration with higher than 52 spec at any rate it’s worth it (like .15% per point based on Dalimer testing years ago), the 2h melee dmg bonus is small for the points, and the style dmg is only a few points higher.
inoeth wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 6:02 PMgromet12 wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 4:15 PM2handers will continue to increase base dmg with spec above 52 comp, and the style dmg for both 1hand/2hand increases as you are higher in the spec. The difference maker is you have to decide if it is worth the points; you don’t increase defense penetration with higher than 52 spec at any rate it’s worth it (like .15% per point based on Dalimer testing years ago), the 2h melee dmg bonus is small for the points, and the style dmg is only a few points higher.
thats not true, WS raises the higher the spec is, therefore your defense penetration also raises. however it has only minimal effect maybe 1-3% from 44 to 50
but being a hunter every % counts, together with you pet you will be able to drop evade7 to like 25% from originally ~45%
How much does my enemy's weaponskill effect my block/parry rate?
“Weaponskill” doesn’t determine defense penetration by itself but is rather an index value that is built from a character’s specialization, stats, +skills, and a class’ inherent ability with a given weapon line – all of which do factor into things like damage, defense and defense penetration. While it’s easy to say a higher weaponskill character fighting a lower one will *generally* have an easier time landing attacks, this isn’t solely because of their weaponskill but is more precisely because of all of the stats and factors that make up that weaponskill value.
There is no a calculation that can be made that says “X weaponskill equals Y reduction to an enemy’s block/parry rate” because more than just weaponskill (again, specifically the factors that make it up) applies to landing or defending against attacks. There are also style and weapon to-hit bonuses/penalties as well as buffs/debuffs that can greatly alter these outcomes.
There has been some controversy regarding Hand to Hand and Fist Wraps - do they benefit from the same penetration bonus as CD/DW/LA (vs Block and Evade)?
Yes, both Hand to Hand and Fist Wraps have the same penetration bonus as Celtic Dual, Dual Wield, and Left Axe as they are also considered “dual-wielding” specializations. Block and evade chances are reduced by 25% vs dual-wielders.
In testing this, the Savage and Mauler will still likely show more blocks and evades over the same number of tested styles than one of the Light Tanks would but this is because of their comparatively lower difference in their penetration bonus.
gromet12 wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 11:27 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 6:02 PMgromet12 wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 4:15 PM2handers will continue to increase base dmg with spec above 52 comp, and the style dmg for both 1hand/2hand increases as you are higher in the spec. The difference maker is you have to decide if it is worth the points; you don’t increase defense penetration with higher than 52 spec at any rate it’s worth it (like .15% per point based on Dalimer testing years ago), the 2h melee dmg bonus is small for the points, and the style dmg is only a few points higher.
thats not true, WS raises the higher the spec is, therefore your defense penetration also raises. however it has only minimal effect maybe 1-3% from 44 to 50
but being a hunter every % counts, together with you pet you will be able to drop evade7 to like 25% from originally ~45%
Weapon skill means nothing! It has nothing to do with anything other than in the UI, it could say 5k for all that matters, that number does nothing for your character.
It is the UI's (the UI) representation of doing this should increase dmg. However, we know that it is WRONG when it comes to 1hand dmg, the Weapon skill will continue to rise going above comp 52 but the base dmg does not on 1handers. This also applied to Bow dmg, though you spec'ed more in the archery weapon skill you gained nothing but the two-hand weapon bonus (which is small). The UI does not understand this, so it continues to increase given a false representation of increasing dmg. And you don't think that increasing WS will also give a false representation of "defense penetration"
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_Damage formulas are here
Defense penetration from the creators of the game....Notice the FIRST LINE. Stats matter not WS, and Skills are really low if you look at the test results posted at the end.
Mythic answers:
How much does my enemy's weaponskill effect my block/parry rate?
“Weaponskill” doesn’t determine defense penetration by itself but is rather an index value that is built from a character’s specialization, stats, +skills, and a class’ inherent ability with a given weapon line – all of which do factor into things like damage, defense and defense penetration. While it’s easy to say a higher weaponskill character fighting a lower one will *generally* have an easier time landing attacks, this isn’t solely because of their weaponskill but is more precisely because of all of the stats and factors that make up that weaponskill value.
There is no a calculation that can be made that says “X weaponskill equals Y reduction to an enemy’s block/parry rate” because more than just weaponskill (again, specifically the factors that make it up) applies to landing or defending against attacks. There are also style and weapon to-hit bonuses/penalties as well as buffs/debuffs that can greatly alter these outcomes.There has been some controversy regarding Hand to Hand and Fist Wraps - do they benefit from the same penetration bonus as CD/DW/LA (vs Block and Evade)?
Yes, both Hand to Hand and Fist Wraps have the same penetration bonus as Celtic Dual, Dual Wield, and Left Axe as they are also considered “dual-wielding” specializations. Block and evade chances are reduced by 25% vs dual-wielders.
In testing this, the Savage and Mauler will still likely show more blocks and evades over the same number of tested styles than one of the Light Tanks would but this is because of their comparatively lower difference in their penetration bonus.
Tanks/light tanks basically have 17% while hybrids get 11% was the general rule, and Mythic mentions their difference because of the dmg factor/table they on. Yes savages are hybrids, I had that conversation in MSG the other day, so many think they are light tanks, they are hybrids and have lower defense penetration bonus
Daimars test results of defense penetration. Again you decide if given up other things makes sense for the small increase in defense penetration
https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/daimar-base-weapon-defense-penetration
gromet12 wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 11:27 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 6:02 PMgromet12 wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 4:15 PM2handers will continue to increase base dmg with spec above 52 comp, and the style dmg for both 1hand/2hand increases as you are higher in the spec. The difference maker is you have to decide if it is worth the points; you don’t increase defense penetration with higher than 52 spec at any rate it’s worth it (like .15% per point based on Dalimer testing years ago), the 2h melee dmg bonus is small for the points, and the style dmg is only a few points higher.
thats not true, WS raises the higher the spec is, therefore your defense penetration also raises. however it has only minimal effect maybe 1-3% from 44 to 50
but being a hunter every % counts, together with you pet you will be able to drop evade7 to like 25% from originally ~45%
Weapon skill means nothing! It has nothing to do with anything other than in the UI, it could say 5k for all that matters, that number does nothing for your character.
It is the UI's (the UI) representation of doing this should increase dmg. However, we know that it is WRONG when it comes to 1hand dmg, the Weapon skill will continue to rise going above comp 52 but the base dmg does not on 1handers. This also applied to Bow dmg, though you spec'ed more in the archery weapon skill you gained nothing but the two-hand weapon bonus (which is small). The UI does not understand this, so it continues to increase given a false representation of increasing dmg. And you don't think that increasing WS will also give a false representation of "defense penetration"
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_Damage formulas are here
Defense penetration from the creators of the game....Notice the FIRST LINE. Stats matter not WS, and Skills are really low if you look at the test results posted at the end.
Mythic answers:
How much does my enemy's weaponskill effect my block/parry rate?
“Weaponskill” doesn’t determine defense penetration by itself but is rather an index value that is built from a character’s specialization, stats, +skills, and a class’ inherent ability with a given weapon line – all of which do factor into things like damage, defense and defense penetration. While it’s easy to say a higher weaponskill character fighting a lower one will *generally* have an easier time landing attacks, this isn’t solely because of their weaponskill but is more precisely because of all of the stats and factors that make up that weaponskill value.
There is no a calculation that can be made that says “X weaponskill equals Y reduction to an enemy’s block/parry rate” because more than just weaponskill (again, specifically the factors that make it up) applies to landing or defending against attacks. There are also style and weapon to-hit bonuses/penalties as well as buffs/debuffs that can greatly alter these outcomes.There has been some controversy regarding Hand to Hand and Fist Wraps - do they benefit from the same penetration bonus as CD/DW/LA (vs Block and Evade)?
Yes, both Hand to Hand and Fist Wraps have the same penetration bonus as Celtic Dual, Dual Wield, and Left Axe as they are also considered “dual-wielding” specializations. Block and evade chances are reduced by 25% vs dual-wielders.
In testing this, the Savage and Mauler will still likely show more blocks and evades over the same number of tested styles than one of the Light Tanks would but this is because of their comparatively lower difference in their penetration bonus.
Tanks/light tanks basically have 17% while hybrids get 11% was the general rule, and Mythic mentions their difference because of the dmg factor/table they on. Yes savages are hybrids, I had that conversation in MSG the other day, so many think they are light tanks, they are hybrids and have lower defense penetration bonus
Daimars test results of defense penetration. Again you decide if given up other things makes sense for the small increase in defense penetration
https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/daimar-base-weapon-defense-penetration
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 10:48 AMBase damage DOES increase when using base styles with the base weapon. I know specifically from speccing and testing 50 Blades vs 50 Celtic Dual. Given equal Growth Rates each style will do the same damage.
The damage modifier formula will be changed for non-volley archery shots only and no longer cap at min(spec - 1, enemy level + 1) aka no longer cap at 52 in pvp situations. This alone will make a noticable difference between 27 and 50 bow spec while at the same time increasing the bow damage for higher specs without touching the current 27 bow damage.
Penetrating shot 2 will allow 50% of the damage to go through against self casted bt.
gromet12 wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 12:37 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 10:48 AMBase damage DOES increase when using base styles with the base weapon. I know specifically from speccing and testing 50 Blades vs 50 Celtic Dual. Given equal Growth Rates each style will do the same damage.
Total dmg=base dmg + style dmg
If you use styles from that line then obviously style dmg will increase as it doesn’t cap. Base dmg does get “hard capped” unless a 2hander (which gets 2H bonus).
Style dmg is not the largest portion of the dmg formula, increasing style by a few points will raise the style dmg BUT it’s up to you to make the choice if it is worth it, some classes don’t have to make this choice, for example warriors have options along with zerkers, hunters though would do better imo stopping at a style (for the style) and balancing out archery/BC (42 for example for th higher AF) vs random points into weapon without style
Here it is explained on the archery changes, archery is melee base dmg only with no styles, it stopped increasing dmg except for the small 2hand bonus modifier which is why going above 52 gained so little for archers
The damage modifier formula will be changed for non-volley archery shots only and no longer cap at min(spec - 1, enemy level + 1) aka no longer cap at 52 in pvp situations. This alone will make a noticable difference between 27 and 50 bow spec while at the same time increasing the bow damage for higher specs without touching the current 27 bow damage.
Penetrating shot 2 will allow 50% of the damage to go through against self casted bt.
inoeth wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 12:51 PMgromet12 wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 12:37 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 10:48 AMBase damage DOES increase when using base styles with the base weapon. I know specifically from speccing and testing 50 Blades vs 50 Celtic Dual. Given equal Growth Rates each style will do the same damage.
Total dmg=base dmg + style dmg
If you use styles from that line then obviously style dmg will increase as it doesn’t cap. Base dmg does get “hard capped” unless a 2hander (which gets 2H bonus).
Style dmg is not the largest portion of the dmg formula, increasing style by a few points will raise the style dmg BUT it’s up to you to make the choice if it is worth it, some classes don’t have to make this choice, for example warriors have options along with zerkers, hunters though would do better imo stopping at a style (for the style) and balancing out archery/BC (42 for example for th higher AF) vs random points into weapon without style
Here it is explained on the archery changes, archery is melee base dmg only with no styles, it stopped increasing dmg except for the small 2hand bonus modifier which is why going above 52 gained so little for archers
The damage modifier formula will be changed for non-volley archery shots only and no longer cap at min(spec - 1, enemy level + 1) aka no longer cap at 52 in pvp situations. This alone will make a noticable difference between 27 and 50 bow spec while at the same time increasing the bow damage for higher specs without touching the current 27 bow damage.
Penetrating shot 2 will allow 50% of the damage to go through against self casted bt.
with the again toned down archery, i can assure you it is not going to help you alot to dump the points into archery that much. 35 bow is enough, you can even drop it to 27 easily and still deal good dmg. 42 bc is a must imo and then you have the points for 44+ spear. and if you want to be a decent hunter and not just a wall-add-archer then you want high weapon spec since you end up in melee 99% of your fights. also according to your statement to spec for the style, the 44 spear is one of the highest dmg styles in the game and also the lvl 50 is quite good if you can manage to land the side style in the first place.
Zocci wrote: ↑Thu 9 Jul 2020 1:59 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 12:51 PMgromet12 wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 12:37 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 10:48 AMBase damage DOES increase when using base styles with the base weapon. I know specifically from speccing and testing 50 Blades vs 50 Celtic Dual. Given equal Growth Rates each style will do the same damage.
Total dmg=base dmg + style dmg
If you use styles from that line then obviously style dmg will increase as it doesn’t cap. Base dmg does get “hard capped” unless a 2hander (which gets 2H bonus).
Style dmg is not the largest portion of the dmg formula, increasing style by a few points will raise the style dmg BUT it’s up to you to make the choice if it is worth it, some classes don’t have to make this choice, for example warriors have options along with zerkers, hunters though would do better imo stopping at a style (for the style) and balancing out archery/BC (42 for example for th higher AF) vs random points into weapon without style
Here it is explained on the archery changes, archery is melee base dmg only with no styles, it stopped increasing dmg except for the small 2hand bonus modifier which is why going above 52 gained so little for archers
The damage modifier formula will be changed for non-volley archery shots only and no longer cap at min(spec - 1, enemy level + 1) aka no longer cap at 52 in pvp situations. This alone will make a noticable difference between 27 and 50 bow spec while at the same time increasing the bow damage for higher specs without touching the current 27 bow damage.
Penetrating shot 2 will allow 50% of the damage to go through against self casted bt.
with the again toned down archery, i can assure you it is not going to help you alot to dump the points into archery that much. 35 bow is enough, you can even drop it to 27 easily and still deal good dmg. 42 bc is a must imo and then you have the points for 44+ spear. and if you want to be a decent hunter and not just a wall-add-archer then you want high weapon spec since you end up in melee 99% of your fights. also according to your statement to spec for the style, the 44 spear is one of the highest dmg styles in the game and also the lvl 50 is quite good if you can manage to land the side style in the first place.
Good points all around.
I'm suprised you say 42 BC is a must, or is that more a high RR type of deal?
Compared to what i thought was an absolute minimum, 32 for the last pet, you get:
Speed 165 -> 180 delve, 40->50sec
14 more AF
12 more dex/qui
24 more pet str/con
That means you sacrifice either 9 points in bow with 39 spear or 16 points with 44 spear:
(Considering 36 stealth @ RR4)
36S 44 spear 42BC = 31 Bow (Pen 1, No Rapid fire) (This reach composit 52 bow and Rapid Fire 1 @RR8)
36S 39 spear 42BC = 37 Bow (Pen 1, Rapid 1) (Composit bow 52 @RR5)
36S 44 spear 32BC = 41 Bow (Pen 2, Rapid 1)
36S 39 spear 32BC = 46 Bow (Pen 2, Rapid 2)
Is the bow damage really that horrible that 12 more dex/qui and 14 more AF outweights 9 or 16 points in bow? Or is it the scaling thats poor?
Are Pen. Arrow 2 and Rapid Fire 1 and 2 not good enough to value them in spec?
Is composite bow 52 not a must have?
Side note:
Is the 39 rear stun really worth following up with melee damage instead of trying to kite away?
My Hunter dinged 50 in the event and currently in the process of getting temped so my experience is limited at best..
Meanwhile during slow workhours I´m trying to gain some theoretical knowledge here on the forum.
Cheers
inoeth wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 11:53 AMbase dmg =! style dmg
you know
apples =! pears
but yeah ofc you tested it .... what else ;D you dont even seem to know how ridicolous your comment is..... again!!
still funny how you always deconstruct yourself
gromet12 wrote: ↑Thu 9 Jul 2020 4:15 PMZocci wrote: ↑Thu 9 Jul 2020 1:59 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 12:51 PMgromet12 wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 12:37 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 10:48 AMBase damage DOES increase when using base styles with the base weapon. I know specifically from speccing and testing 50 Blades vs 50 Celtic Dual. Given equal Growth Rates each style will do the same damage.
Total dmg=base dmg + style dmg
If you use styles from that line then obviously style dmg will increase as it doesn’t cap. Base dmg does get “hard capped” unless a 2hander (which gets 2H bonus).
Style dmg is not the largest portion of the dmg formula, increasing style by a few points will raise the style dmg BUT it’s up to you to make the choice if it is worth it, some classes don’t have to make this choice, for example warriors have options along with zerkers, hunters though would do better imo stopping at a style (for the style) and balancing out archery/BC (42 for example for th higher AF) vs random points into weapon without style
Here it is explained on the archery changes, archery is melee base dmg only with no styles, it stopped increasing dmg except for the small 2hand bonus modifier which is why going above 52 gained so little for archers
The damage modifier formula will be changed for non-volley archery shots only and no longer cap at min(spec - 1, enemy level + 1) aka no longer cap at 52 in pvp situations. This alone will make a noticable difference between 27 and 50 bow spec while at the same time increasing the bow damage for higher specs without touching the current 27 bow damage.
Penetrating shot 2 will allow 50% of the damage to go through against self casted bt.
with the again toned down archery, i can assure you it is not going to help you alot to dump the points into archery that much. 35 bow is enough, you can even drop it to 27 easily and still deal good dmg. 42 bc is a must imo and then you have the points for 44+ spear. and if you want to be a decent hunter and not just a wall-add-archer then you want high weapon spec since you end up in melee 99% of your fights. also according to your statement to spec for the style, the 44 spear is one of the highest dmg styles in the game and also the lvl 50 is quite good if you can manage to land the side style in the first place.
Good points all around.
I'm suprised you say 42 BC is a must, or is that more a high RR type of deal?
Compared to what i thought was an absolute minimum, 32 for the last pet, you get:
Speed 165 -> 180 delve, 40->50sec
14 more AF
12 more dex/qui
24 more pet str/con
That means you sacrifice either 9 points in bow with 39 spear or 16 points with 44 spear:
(Considering 36 stealth @ RR4)
36S 44 spear 42BC = 31 Bow (Pen 1, No Rapid fire) (This reach composit 52 bow and Rapid Fire 1 @RR8)
36S 39 spear 42BC = 37 Bow (Pen 1, Rapid 1) (Composit bow 52 @RR5)
36S 44 spear 32BC = 41 Bow (Pen 2, Rapid 1)
36S 39 spear 32BC = 46 Bow (Pen 2, Rapid 2)
Is the bow damage really that horrible that 12 more dex/qui and 14 more AF outweights 9 or 16 points in bow? Or is it the scaling thats poor?
Are Pen. Arrow 2 and Rapid Fire 1 and 2 not good enough to value them in spec?
Is composite bow 52 not a must have?
Side note:
Is the 39 rear stun really worth following up with melee damage instead of trying to kite away?
My Hunter dinged 50 in the event and currently in the process of getting temped so my experience is limited at best..
Meanwhile during slow workhours I´m trying to gain some theoretical knowledge here on the forum.
Cheers
Pet str/con is worthless in most cases, your not going to stop to buff the pet when you cast them, you can roam with them out and play the tag-along game putting the pet in various areas, but yea
AF is nice because evade 3 isn't going to save you, you will evade around 1 n 5 swings vs most classes, that means you are taking dmg the other times as you have low defense. The AF buff helps lower that dmg some I used 42 spec AF with moa 4 to push the AF even higher (was almost 90 iirc), but that also buffed my potions at the time, which that no longer works. But spec 42 AF isn't just 14 higher than than 31 spec, you are forgetting spec buffs get 25% casted bonus, so its 80 AF for 42 spec vs 62 AF for 31 spec, and the dex/quick works same way. I did this so I could cap quickness more so than the dex, my hunter is sword as I think the styles are better than spear, HOWEVER most classes have purge which would ruin it anyways
For RF...there is no difference in time/dmg for RF (I actually don't recommend you use it tbh as a mid, just swap out a fast bow IMO using /switch). The difference is endo usage and its nothing to worry about since you have endo regen up anyways
Pen II is nice now, but I still dropped it after playing with the change. It allows you to pop self casted BT for 50% dmg reduction, I just invest in Longshot which doesn't do that do you and pops self BT
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Thu 9 Jul 2020 5:16 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 11:53 AMbase dmg =! style dmg
you know
apples =! pears
but yeah ofc you tested it .... what else ;D you dont even seem to know how ridicolous your comment is..... again!!
still funny how you always deconstruct yourself
blablabla i have nothing to say than radom rants and my silly excuse is an illness now
gromet12 wrote: ↑Thu 9 Jul 2020 4:15 PMZocci wrote: ↑Thu 9 Jul 2020 1:59 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 12:51 PMgromet12 wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 12:37 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 10:48 AMBase damage DOES increase when using base styles with the base weapon. I know specifically from speccing and testing 50 Blades vs 50 Celtic Dual. Given equal Growth Rates each style will do the same damage.
Total dmg=base dmg + style dmg
If you use styles from that line then obviously style dmg will increase as it doesn’t cap. Base dmg does get “hard capped” unless a 2hander (which gets 2H bonus).
Style dmg is not the largest portion of the dmg formula, increasing style by a few points will raise the style dmg BUT it’s up to you to make the choice if it is worth it, some classes don’t have to make this choice, for example warriors have options along with zerkers, hunters though would do better imo stopping at a style (for the style) and balancing out archery/BC (42 for example for th higher AF) vs random points into weapon without style
Here it is explained on the archery changes, archery is melee base dmg only with no styles, it stopped increasing dmg except for the small 2hand bonus modifier which is why going above 52 gained so little for archers
The damage modifier formula will be changed for non-volley archery shots only and no longer cap at min(spec - 1, enemy level + 1) aka no longer cap at 52 in pvp situations. This alone will make a noticable difference between 27 and 50 bow spec while at the same time increasing the bow damage for higher specs without touching the current 27 bow damage.
Penetrating shot 2 will allow 50% of the damage to go through against self casted bt.
with the again toned down archery, i can assure you it is not going to help you alot to dump the points into archery that much. 35 bow is enough, you can even drop it to 27 easily and still deal good dmg. 42 bc is a must imo and then you have the points for 44+ spear. and if you want to be a decent hunter and not just a wall-add-archer then you want high weapon spec since you end up in melee 99% of your fights. also according to your statement to spec for the style, the 44 spear is one of the highest dmg styles in the game and also the lvl 50 is quite good if you can manage to land the side style in the first place.
Good points all around.
I'm suprised you say 42 BC is a must, or is that more a high RR type of deal?
Compared to what i thought was an absolute minimum, 32 for the last pet, you get:
Speed 165 -> 180 delve, 40->50sec
14 more AF
12 more dex/qui
24 more pet str/con
That means you sacrifice either 9 points in bow with 39 spear or 16 points with 44 spear:
(Considering 36 stealth @ RR4)
36S 44 spear 42BC = 31 Bow (Pen 1, No Rapid fire) (This reach composit 52 bow and Rapid Fire 1 @RR8)
36S 39 spear 42BC = 37 Bow (Pen 1, Rapid 1) (Composit bow 52 @RR5)
36S 44 spear 32BC = 41 Bow (Pen 2, Rapid 1)
36S 39 spear 32BC = 46 Bow (Pen 2, Rapid 2)
Is the bow damage really that horrible that 12 more dex/qui and 14 more AF outweights 9 or 16 points in bow? Or is it the scaling thats poor?
Are Pen. Arrow 2 and Rapid Fire 1 and 2 not good enough to value them in spec?
Is composite bow 52 not a must have?
Side note:
Is the 39 rear stun really worth following up with melee damage instead of trying to kite away?
My Hunter dinged 50 in the event and currently in the process of getting temped so my experience is limited at best..
Meanwhile during slow workhours I´m trying to gain some theoretical knowledge here on the forum.
Cheers
Pet str/con is worthless in most cases, your not going to stop to buff the pet when you cast them, you can roam with them out and play the tag-along game putting the pet in various areas, but yea
AF is nice because evade 3 isn't going to save you, you will evade around 1 n 5 swings vs most classes, that means you are taking dmg the other times as you have low defense. The AF buff helps lower that dmg some I used 42 spec AF with moa 4 to push the AF even higher (was almost 90 iirc), but that also buffed my potions at the time, which that no longer works. But spec 42 AF isn't just 14 higher than than 31 spec, you are forgetting spec buffs get 25% casted bonus, so its 80 AF for 42 spec vs 62 AF for 31 spec, and the dex/quick works same way. I did this so I could cap quickness more so than the dex, my hunter is sword as I think the styles are better than spear, HOWEVER most classes have purge which would ruin it anyways
For RF...there is no difference in time/dmg for RF (I actually don't recommend you use it tbh as a mid, just swap out a fast bow IMO using /switch). The difference is endo usage and its nothing to worry about since you have endo regen up anyways
Pen II is nice now, but I still dropped it after playing with the change. It allows you to pop self casted BT for 50% dmg reduction, I just invest in Longshot which doesn't do that do you and pops self BT
Bradekes wrote: ↑Thu 13 Aug 2020 11:43 AM
Bow isn't affected by haste or celerity. It's not possible to cap bow speed. 4.0 bow with 250 quickness is at 2.4 speed, and if you get MoArchery 9 your 2.4speed would be 2.04 speed. Bow speed may not even have a cap but that is impossible to find out without being able to custom make a faster bow.
gromet12 wrote: ↑Thu 13 Aug 2020 11:24 PM
No it’s not 1.5secs but it’s 2secs and doesn’t suffer from the dmg reduction with RF
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Fri 14 Aug 2020 12:24 PMAnd a Hunter who is not close to 1.5 speed cap but a Scout/Ranger who is at 1.5 speed cap can lose the interrupt war based on speed alone. Not a problem for a 1v1 situation with a Hunter but it is a problem with multiple enemies.
daytonchambers wrote: ↑Fri 14 Aug 2020 7:49 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Fri 14 Aug 2020 12:24 PMAnd a Hunter who is not close to 1.5 speed cap but a Scout/Ranger who is at 1.5 speed cap can lose the interrupt war based on speed alone. Not a problem for a 1v1 situation with a Hunter but it is a problem with multiple enemies.
As long as you have 35 archery for RF you could toggle it on to fire at speed cap until you have the initiative then switch rapidfire off to jack up your damage while only slowing shot speed down by a half second.
I'll def need to play with this and see if a sped-up 4.0 firing reg shots can land a good bit more damage (per shot, not per second) when compared to a 5.0 bow that's rapid-firing, which has always been my go-to.
That said, even with theorycrafting the 2.0 shot speed with a 4.0 bow I still think rapidfire is a must-have as an interrupt tool vs multiple heals/cc classes
inoeth wrote: ↑Sun 16 Aug 2020 11:47 AMdaytonchambers wrote: That said, even with theorycrafting the 2.0 shot speed with a 4.0 bow I still think rapidfire is a must-have as an interrupt tool vs multiple heals/cc classes
nope as a hunter you have your pet for interrupts
i see rapid fire more as a "hinder to get away" ability since normal shots can sometimes take too long to deal enough dmg in a short time.
sometimes ppl just run out of bow range, but with RF you can often bring them down to <30% so they are slowed and you can run after them
daytonchambers wrote: rapidfire is an amazing tool for interrupts
daytonchambers wrote: ↑Fri 21 Aug 2020 1:49 AMThat said I don't think that the dog can shut down an entire back support line even remotely as effectively as tab toggling between three back-line support casters (heal/nuke) and rapidfiring all three of them. Which I do a lot to break a push in ZvZ
rapidfire is an amazing tool for interrupts
Centenario wrote: ↑Fri 21 Aug 2020 11:53 AMdaytonchambers wrote: rapidfire is an amazing tool for interrupts
To what key do you bind the rapidfire?
Or how to you switch so effectively, could you send a screen of your bars?
inoeth wrote: ↑Tue 7 Jul 2020 9:04 AMgromet12 wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 11:27 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 6:02 PMgromet12 wrote: ↑Mon 6 Jul 2020 4:15 PM2handers will continue to increase base dmg with spec above 52 comp, and the style dmg for both 1hand/2hand increases as you are higher in the spec. The difference maker is you have to decide if it is worth the points; you don’t increase defense penetration with higher than 52 spec at any rate it’s worth it (like .15% per point based on Dalimer testing years ago), the 2h melee dmg bonus is small for the points, and the style dmg is only a few points higher.
thats not true, WS raises the higher the spec is, therefore your defense penetration also raises. however it has only minimal effect maybe 1-3% from 44 to 50
but being a hunter every % counts, together with you pet you will be able to drop evade7 to like 25% from originally ~45%
Weapon skill means nothing! It has nothing to do with anything other than in the UI, it could say 5k for all that matters, that number does nothing for your character.
It is the UI's (the UI) representation of doing this should increase dmg. However, we know that it is WRONG when it comes to 1hand dmg, the Weapon skill will continue to rise going above comp 52 but the base dmg does not on 1handers. This also applied to Bow dmg, though you spec'ed more in the archery weapon skill you gained nothing but the two-hand weapon bonus (which is small). The UI does not understand this, so it continues to increase given a false representation of increasing dmg. And you don't think that increasing WS will also give a false representation of "defense penetration"
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_Damage formulas are here
Defense penetration from the creators of the game....Notice the FIRST LINE. Stats matter not WS, and Skills are really low if you look at the test results posted at the end.
Mythic answers:
How much does my enemy's weaponskill effect my block/parry rate?
“Weaponskill” doesn’t determine defense penetration by itself but is rather an index value that is built from a character’s specialization, stats, +skills, and a class’ inherent ability with a given weapon line – all of which do factor into things like damage, defense and defense penetration. While it’s easy to say a higher weaponskill character fighting a lower one will *generally* have an easier time landing attacks, this isn’t solely because of their weaponskill but is more precisely because of all of the stats and factors that make up that weaponskill value.
There is no a calculation that can be made that says “X weaponskill equals Y reduction to an enemy’s block/parry rate” because more than just weaponskill (again, specifically the factors that make it up) applies to landing or defending against attacks. There are also style and weapon to-hit bonuses/penalties as well as buffs/debuffs that can greatly alter these outcomes.There has been some controversy regarding Hand to Hand and Fist Wraps - do they benefit from the same penetration bonus as CD/DW/LA (vs Block and Evade)?
Yes, both Hand to Hand and Fist Wraps have the same penetration bonus as Celtic Dual, Dual Wield, and Left Axe as they are also considered “dual-wielding” specializations. Block and evade chances are reduced by 25% vs dual-wielders.
In testing this, the Savage and Mauler will still likely show more blocks and evades over the same number of tested styles than one of the Light Tanks would but this is because of their comparatively lower difference in their penetration bonus.
Tanks/light tanks basically have 17% while hybrids get 11% was the general rule, and Mythic mentions their difference because of the dmg factor/table they on. Yes savages are hybrids, I had that conversation in MSG the other day, so many think they are light tanks, they are hybrids and have lower defense penetration bonus
Daimars test results of defense penetration. Again you decide if given up other things makes sense for the small increase in defense penetration
https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/daimar-base-weapon-defense-penetration
so according to your link increased skill does indeed lower defenses of an enemy. maybe the stat "weaponskill" does not make it into the equation but the skill of the weapon.
so in the end i dont see where im wrong and why you wrote a book here ;D
inoeth wrote: ↑Thu 13 Aug 2020 6:44 PMwould be interesting how much dmg you would do with 50 bow moarchery9 and a 4.0 bow... i can imagine it would be about 300 every 2s ... not too bad
Siouxsie wrote: ↑Sat 29 Aug 2020 10:31 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Thu 13 Aug 2020 6:44 PMwould be interesting how much dmg you would do with 50 bow moarchery9 and a 4.0 bow... i can imagine it would be about 300 every 2s ... not too bad
My tests with 50 bow, moarchery 9, and 5.0 bow, I've crit shot infiltrators for 875, regular shot 477.
Casters I've hit for 922. I think that's cap bow damage.
I have shot heroes/champs for 700s (slash arrows)
Sisay wrote: ↑Thu 3 Sep 2020 5:52 PMMy hunter just ding 50 now. I have a few questions :
What the better ra start to?
LW/Tireless
Purge 2
???
And for the temp :
Spear : Bloodfire spear (for heat dot), crafted spear with standard dot and fast rog LT?
Bow : 2 Crafted bow with dot ? (1 4.0 vit and 1 5.0 vit )
Thank you
Nunki wrote: ↑Fri 4 Sep 2020 7:39 AMSisay wrote: ↑Thu 3 Sep 2020 5:52 PMMy hunter just ding 50 now. I have a few questions :
What the better ra start to?
LW/Tireless
Purge 2
???
And for the temp :
Spear : Bloodfire spear (for heat dot), crafted spear with standard dot and fast rog LT?
Bow : 2 Crafted bow with dot ? (1 4.0 vit and 1 5.0 vit )
Thank you
LW/Tireless
Purge 2-3
IP 2-3
aug quick until you hit 250 quickness (including self buffs and pots ofc)
wild minion 1
Passives depending on spec and race (aug dex, toughness, probably mop/falcon eye 1-3)
it's not better to start with 1-2 pts in MOA before using Aug Qui for the 250 target?
inoeth wrote: ↑Fri 4 Sep 2020 12:58 PMNunki wrote: ↑Fri 4 Sep 2020 7:39 AMSisay wrote: ↑Thu 3 Sep 2020 5:52 PMMy hunter just ding 50 now. I have a few questions :
What the better ra start to?
LW/Tireless
Purge 2
???
And for the temp :
Spear : Bloodfire spear (for heat dot), crafted spear with standard dot and fast rog LT?
Bow : 2 Crafted bow with dot ? (1 4.0 vit and 1 5.0 vit )
Thank you
LW/Tireless
Purge 2-3
IP 2-3
aug quick until you hit 250 quickness (including self buffs and pots ofc)
wild minion 1
Passives depending on spec and race (aug dex, toughness, probably mop/falcon eye 1-3)
crit RAs not worth specing, better get moarch and/or moarms depending on playstyle
imo ip4 is a must have nowadays with stacking PA+debuff dmg
Sisay wrote: ↑Tue 8 Sep 2020 7:51 PMShouldn't better to put points in dex first? it's help both melee and ranged?
Oh and I finish my temp and it's give me 256 qui without any RA. Should I change my basic stat to remove qui and put it somewhere?
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑Sun 20 Sep 2020 8:55 AMNorse =(
10 str/ 10 dex / 10 qui
Start spec: 36 ste / 39 spear/ 42 beast/ 37 bow
5L spec: 35 ste / 50 spear / 42 beast / 24 bow
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