balancing meta suggestions - Phoenix Freeshard

since the buff hp and the critic nerfs you oriented the meta towards tank by doing so , the time during fights is longer obviously

when looking at this more closely you also buffed the pets, because who is rupting the most ? pets

who has the most pets ? albs.

when you buff the hp and you nerf the critics, it also takes more time to kill what ? the pets

now let's focus on the minstrel part.

since most grp are running 2minstrel or even 3 sometimes and ofc all high rank , trying to kill pets red full buff is a fkn joke and close to a nightmare (you would have to debuff the pet and dish out 7-8 dd under debuff otherwise you can double the amount...
now multiply this by the number of pets and minstrel and try to estimate the window where you can raise your hands against such setup and you quickly understand this is total bs

but hey let's say you guys in the staff already thought this ahead and think the minstrel under the ruleset of this server are in a fair spot and situation ...
after spending 30 mins trying to kill the pets, guess what ? since you usually fight around mobs , you struggled to kill the pets of the 3 minstrel during the 30 mins just so that they have an inifite pool of mobs close by hanging around just waiting to be charmed ... how cute...

I sincerely hope you realize the issue and will forgive the pissed off atitude here....

my suggestions: are:
set a timer of 3-5mins so that minstrel cant charm a pet once their previous pet was killed by ennemies
look at hp formula on minstrel pet and nerf this nonsense

ps: pvp grp zone was fun because there was no pets hanging around when you killed the mins pet.

Wed 27 May 2020 11:17 PM by Chamie

It´s a complicated issue because it seems that in 8vs8 Albion has been struggling the most lately on EU but I think a huge reason for that is because of the lack of realm rank in the EU Alb groups compared to their opponents.

I think it´s very safe to say however that Minstrels are too strong and not working as intended while some other alb classes might need some kind of boost but you need to be careful not to change too much of what the original DAoC is in order to make such a boost.
The fact that minstrels can recharm pets infinitely in fights when fighting near mob spots is very bad because it makes alb groups much stronger when close to a mob spot than otherwise which is ofc a horrible mechanic.
Another issue is that there is a bug on phoenix where minstrel pets hit what is closest to them when you release them so that you can break roots of your teammates like this (same with menta obv). Released pets are not supposed to do that in DAOC, they are supposed to go directly for the guy who charmed it when released without hitting anyone else. (Now you can press go to target on your rooted teammate and then press release)

To fix the recharm the code would have to be written in a way that is "If a pet that you owned the last 2 minutes dies you can not charm another one until you have been out of combat for 1 minute". Basically that recharm would go on the buff potion cd if a pet that the minstrel has owned within 2 minutes prior to its death has died.

Wed 27 May 2020 11:42 PM by Chamie

While its clear that minstrels need to be fixed after seeing these issues and more and more groups starting to run 2-3 minstrels (can also argue that flute mezz needs to be fixed so that you can rupt it during most of its cast instead of only during the first 50%) I want to list some alb buff changes to other classes that could help out.

1. A slight hp buff of earth and air pets. AIr spec is pretty much used atm and earth pets get two shotted by a druids staff, maybe a 30% health boost could be reasonable.
2. Maybe a castable 1800 range self pet CC clear skill (root and mezz) to the sorc (sorc pets are quite weak atm since they cant be recasted and are easy to CC and/or kill).
3. Some kind of damage boost to mercs, nothing major though.
4. Some more stoicism for reavers and palas.
5. Long range castable interupt taunt to friar with 6 second cd (inspired by alteri actually

)
6. Changing or adding the spec line of nearsight for cabalist and wizard
7. Increased range for cleric smiting skills to at least 1500 (No idea why its 1350). Could even increase the delve a little bit, Something needs to be done about how little you can do as a cleric, I suppose you can argue that warden is pretty boring too but at least warden get self haste and blade styles with side snare that they can play with.

But please fix Dark Age of minstrel pets

. Arena style freeshards running classic have to ban minstrels every set and there they dont even have any pets to recharm if it dies.

Thu 28 May 2020 6:24 AM by joshisanonymous

Nothing about minstrels would appear overpowered if their pets were just CCable in any reasonable way. The previous nerfs made it so that you can CC the pet then use a different form of CC in the 2-6 seconds during which the pet is released to finally have a CC stick, but this is absurdly difficult to do. I've tried doing it solo while a minstrel completely ignores me so that I actually have the option at all, and somehow it still hasn't worked; I can't imagine such a short window is much easier to take advantage of as in group scenarios either. The pet simply needs to be CCable without /release clearing that CC. Short of this, there is literally no option but killing the pets.

I do think the OP is overstating the problem here, though. The recent round of minstrel nerfs did decrease the amount of minstrels running with red barguests. Other pets have far fewer HPs. Also, are there really groups running three minstrels? That seems more like a once-in-a-blue-moon situation.

Thu 28 May 2020 7:06 AM by Tanakeo

slam pet
mezz mincer
wait for charm to fall
mezz pet

Thu 28 May 2020 7:57 AM by Lillebror

What class got slam and mezz?

Thu 28 May 2020 8:32 AM by inoeth

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 28 May 2020 7:57 AM
What class got slam and mezz?

not exactly slam but 9s stun --> minstrel

Thu 28 May 2020 9:53 AM by gotwqqd

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 28 May 2020 6:24 AM
Nothing about minstrels would appear overpowered if their pets were just CCable in any reasonable way. The previous nerfs made it so that you can CC the pet then use a different form of CC in the 2-6 seconds during which the pet is released to finally have a CC stick, but this is absurdly difficult to do. I've tried doing it solo while a minstrel completely ignores me so that I actually have the option at all, and somehow it still hasn't worked; I can't imagine such a short window is much easier to take advantage of as in group scenarios either. The pet simply needs to be CCable without /release clearing that CC. Short of this, there is literally no option but killing the pets.

I do think the OP is overstating the problem here, though. The recent round of minstrel nerfs did decrease the amount of minstrels running with red barguests. Other pets have far fewer HPs. Also, are there really groups running three minstrels? That seems more like a once-in-a-blue-moon situation.

I’ve seen quite a few groups with only minstrel sorcerers in it. Often with 2 or more minstrel

Thu 28 May 2020 10:20 AM by Zaca

Some posts seem kind of delusional

Sun 31 May 2020 9:25 PM by benny75

forgot to mention the necro juggernault pet (which you dont even see the animation when he uses it and dms for 700+) hello admin , are you even going to answer on what you think ?

Sun 31 May 2020 9:50 PM by Quik

benny75 wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 9:25 PM
forgot to mention the necro juggernault pet (which you dont even see the animation when he uses it and dms for 700+) hello admin , are you even going to answer on what you think ?

Can't imagine why they haven't? I mean the only purpose they have in life is to sit here and answer demanding questions from a playerbase playing a game they voluntarily keep going with there own money (when donations don't cover) and their own time.

Pfft damn dev's have no consideration for anyone except themselves!!!

Mon 1 Jun 2020 12:07 AM by Chamie

Tanakeo wrote: ↑
Thu 28 May 2020 7:06 AM
slam pet
mezz mincer
wait for charm to fall
mezz pet

Its a good tactic for sure but think of how much has to be done to even pull this off and the result is, one mincer doesnt get insta demezzed by his pet.
First of all, pet needs to not be stun immune, mincer and pet can not be mezz immune either. Then a tank needs to stop everything he is doing to get to the pet and slam it and then hopefully the CC guy is still free to mezz the mincer and pet. And of course like with any mezz you need to make sure the other demezzer gets interupted right after the mezz also.

A lot of work to get one guy mezzed for some time in the fight ;P.

Mon 1 Jun 2020 12:09 AM by Chamie

Quik wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 9:50 PM
benny75 wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 9:25 PM
forgot to mention the necro juggernault pet (which you dont even see the animation when he uses it and dms for 700+) hello admin , are you even going to answer on what you think ?

Can't imagine why they haven't? I mean the only purpose they have in life is to sit here and answer demanding questions from a playerbase playing a game they voluntarily keep going with there own money (when donations don't cover) and their own time.

Pfft damn dev's have no consideration for anyone except themselves!!!

haha yeah I agree, its a bit absurd to assume that the work for free devs would come and answer immediately to a balance complainment in the forums.
With that being said though, Benny has a good point, I thought Juggernaught was supposed to make the pet really big when used but nothing happens.

I think literally all alb groups in EU GvG switched to tanker now and most of them running double minstrel. FIghting that setup is easily the longest, most boring and most frustrating fights in 8vs8. Its 20 minutes of peel and heal. It was bad enough when Pale ran it but now everyone does it and these fights take up the whole evening. Tanker vs tanker is pretty boring to begin with but when you cant even CC properly because they can abuse a pet to break anyone free of CC including root and there is 2 of that CC destroying class it feels almost like playing a fight where some random is adding to cast gray con aoe dot on anything he sees.

CC and interupts are the main things that make DAoC fun compared to other MMOs, you can argue that the peeling snare mechanic is a fun one too. When you fight vs this setup it´s like those mechanics (other than snare obv) are almost removed.

Mon 1 Jun 2020 4:33 AM by teiloh

A look, ANOTHER Minstrel nerf whine, because 30+ nerfs was not enough

Mon 1 Jun 2020 10:40 AM by Siouxsie

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Jun 2020 4:33 AM
A look, ANOTHER Minstrel nerf whine, because 30+ nerfs was not enough

Clearly, it's not enough. Minstrels still overpowered and un CC'able.

Mon 1 Jun 2020 10:56 AM by inoeth

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Jun 2020 4:33 AM
A look, ANOTHER Minstrel nerf whine, because 30+ nerfs was not enough

was there any change that actually nerfed minstrels? so far i can only see changes that made playing minstrel more convenient so that every last noob can play the class to its full potential

btw back on live servers it was not possible to hold a red pet reliably prior to rr8+ not sure why every rr1 can run around with barguest here...

Mon 1 Jun 2020 9:38 PM by dougrighteous1

Ain't no Albs running 3 minstrels.

Also hibs have as many pets. The issue of killing pets is due to your inability to focus correctly as a group. Good groups focus that shit down instantly.

Bds get a shit load of pets and mids have plenty of ways of interrupting.

All the realms have very different playstyle. Alb groups can be difficult to beat for the exact opposite reason people play on the other realms. Mids and hibs have a huge set of utility on chars, while albs classes have very defined roles.

The entire post is just QQ cause you got killed in RVR. Minstrels are strong classes yes, but people are cherry picking 1 and 2 fights/scenarios that have happened after literal days of playing in RVR. Like the individual crying about Juggernaut Necro pet. How many people are encountering this? How many neceos even play, let alone decent ones that use Juggernaut 5. How dumb. We're you sitting down? Did you not have your af buffs? Did he AF debuff beforehand? Gtfo

Tue 2 Jun 2020 6:32 PM by Chamie

dougrighteous1 wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Jun 2020 9:38 PM
Ain't no Albs running 3 minstrels.

Also hibs have as many pets. The issue of killing pets is due to your inability to focus correctly as a group. Good groups focus that shit down instantly.

Bds get a shit load of pets and mids have plenty of ways of interrupting.

All the realms have very different playstyle. Alb groups can be difficult to beat for the exact opposite reason people play on the other realms. Mids and hibs have a huge set of utility on chars, while albs classes have very defined roles.

The entire post is just QQ cause you got killed in RVR. Minstrels are strong classes yes, but people are cherry picking 1 and 2 fights/scenarios that have happened after literal days of playing in RVR. Like the individual crying about Juggernaut Necro pet. How many people are encountering this? How many neceos even play, let alone decent ones that use Juggernaut 5. How dumb. We're you sitting down? Did you not have your af buffs? Did he AF debuff beforehand? Gtfo

I dont think regular pets are a problem at all. Sure they are annoying but If u cant break any CC they get on them by pressing release button and getting it back its easily countered. He wasnt complaining about how strong jugger 5 is, he was saying that there should be an animation like the pet should become bigger or so.

Sun 7 Jun 2020 7:31 AM by teiloh

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Jun 2020 10:40 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Jun 2020 4:33 AM
A look, ANOTHER Minstrel nerf whine, because 30+ nerfs was not enough

Clearly, it's not enough. Minstrels still overpowered and un CC'able.

Clearly, bows are overpowered. They have 2000 range and they're brown.

Sun 7 Jun 2020 7:32 AM by teiloh

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Jun 2020 10:56 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Jun 2020 4:33 AM
A look, ANOTHER Minstrel nerf whine, because 30+ nerfs was not enough

was there any change that actually nerfed minstrels? so far i can only see changes that made playing minstrel more convenient so that every last noob can play the class to its full potential

btw back on live servers it was not possible to hold a red pet reliably prior to rr8+ not sure why every rr1 can run around with barguest here...

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9477

Sun 7 Jun 2020 7:58 AM by gotwqqd

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Jun 2020 7:32 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Jun 2020 10:56 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Jun 2020 4:33 AM
A look, ANOTHER Minstrel nerf whine, because 30+ nerfs was not enough

was there any change that actually nerfed minstrels? so far i can only see changes that made playing minstrel more convenient so that every last noob can play the class to its full potential

btw back on live servers it was not possible to hold a red pet reliably prior to rr8+ not sure why every rr1 can run around with barguest here...

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9477

Yet they are still the best solo
1v2
Class in the game
It’s obvious when they have no qualm attacking multiple enemies because of the synergy of the tools they have in the game

Sun 7 Jun 2020 8:35 AM by inoeth

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Jun 2020 7:32 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Jun 2020 10:56 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Jun 2020 4:33 AM
A look, ANOTHER Minstrel nerf whine, because 30+ nerfs was not enough

was there any change that actually nerfed minstrels? so far i can only see changes that made playing minstrel more convenient so that every last noob can play the class to its full potential

btw back on live servers it was not possible to hold a red pet reliably prior to rr8+ not sure why every rr1 can run around with barguest here...

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9477

still the most op class so what do you want?

Sun 7 Jun 2020 9:02 AM by Adwaenyth

Tanakeo wrote: ↑
Thu 28 May 2020 7:06 AM
slam pet
mezz mincer
wait for charm to fall
mezz pet

yeah, mins stuns mezzer
mins demezzes own pet

Tue 9 Jun 2020 1:23 AM by Nephamael

Minsts are OP, always were and always will be. But we can just leave them like they are and restore the balance by simply giving some underpowered classes more tools.
Like give Bards the damn 2nd dd, they are so weak in comparison to Sorc/Healer and Minst.
Give RMs castable disease.
Give Enchs or Ments cast Amnesia.
Give Wardens grp specheal and cure nearsight (like Friar).

Increase powerpool of casters in RvR - currently if a hib castergrp kills all Alb pets they are oom. That's why noone can play hib castergrp in this meta and hope to win vs a decent enemy grp, especially a alb hybrid or castergrp.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 3:54 PM by teiloh

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Jun 2020 7:58 AM
Yet they are still the best solo
1v2
Class in the game
It’s obvious when they have no qualm attacking multiple enemies because of the synergy of the tools they have in the game

Solo doesn't mean shit. Pet is good solo. Speed is good solo. So of course people who like to solo will strongly consider some class with these abilities.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 3:55 PM by teiloh

inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Jun 2020 8:35 AM
still the most op class

Nope.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 3:55 PM by teiloh

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Jun 2020 1:23 AM
Minsts are OP

Nope.

Theurg pets cost more to cast than 1.5 AOE DDs, a Hib grp isn't going 00p clearing those.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:36 PM by inoeth

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 3:55 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Jun 2020 8:35 AM
still the most op class

Nope.

denying facts does not suddenly make them disappear..

Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:43 PM by Noashakra

8 mans still run with 2 ministrels, nerf after nerf, and they are still dominating.
The bar was so high to begin with that even after so many nerfs, they are still OP. Now nerf a bit the ellyls, the frost sallions' dps or the bargheists' hp and we are good.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 5:02 PM by teiloh

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:43 PM
8 mans still run with 2 ministrels, nerf after nerf, and they are still dominating.
The bar was so high to begin with that even after so many nerfs, they are still OP. Now nerf a bit the ellyls, the frost sallions' dps or the bargheists' hp and we are good.

Hur dur I guess we should nerf Clerics, Druids and Healers too, or anything else you double up on. Chanters, Ments, Sorcs, Cabs, Savages, Zerks.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 5:03 PM by teiloh

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:36 PM
denying facts does not suddenly make them disappear..

Yep. Denying that the fact that Minstrels are fine doesn't make it untrue.