State of light tanks. Please read and keep it positive.

Started 29 May 2020
by tibofeif
in Suggestions
With the current class balancing in place, the light tank role is basically set to peel duty. This server gives casters higher armor factor and hitpoints innately which heavily favors pull groups as light tanks have a nerfed version of the charge mechanic. I understand why casters were given this buff as they needed survivability. However, with these changes in place, it puts Midgard at a large disadvantage in the RvR scene as it heavily relies on melee over the other realms specifically light tanks.

I personally feel there are a couple of ways of resolving this issue to create a better balance between the realms. Other suggestions are welcome however the issue stated above does exist and does need to be addressed.

Option 1: Give charge its immunity factor back. This will basically stop light tanks from being rooted/snared out of every encounter almost immediately. Obviously, if such a change was made it would need to be re-evaluated to ensure it is not overpowered and rendering casters useless.

Option 2: Remove the AF and HP buff on casters so that they cant simply be chain healed through 3 light tanks beating on them. This solution may be problematic with the high archer damage now already taking casters out with 2 arrows. I do feel if this was done archer damage would have to be reduced significantly.

Option 3: Dramatically lower root/snare times as well as set an immunity to melee snare so it cant be chained on a target over and over. Alternatively, we could make Determination affect all roots/snares as well as set an immunity timer to said cc.

Before people start flaming this post please hear me out. I love this game as much as everyone else on this server. I am a melee-oriented player that simply cannot play a caster. I do not wish to be overpowered in any shape or form. I would like fair gameplay for all that makes archers, assassins, casters, healers, tanks, and light tanks all viable in RvR. I think that we can all agree when one side or class or archetype has a large advantage people flock to it which causes imbalance especially in a game such as DAOC.

It would be wonderful to see some support on this from the community and the phoenix team as I feel if this issue is left unresolved people who are melee-oriented will simply leave the game or be forced to play a class they don't enjoy just so they can play a game they love.
Fri 29 May 2020 11:55 PM by gotwqqd
At the very least the charge should/could grant immunity to the movement cc(snare/root)
Sat 30 May 2020 12:38 AM by joshisanonymous
Tanks got more HPs out of that change than casters. I'm not sure if it makes fights more or less interesting overall, but I don't really see how it imbalanced things in favor of casters (e.g., if you think meleeing a caster with 1600 HP down is hard while they're getting heals, try nuking down a resist buffed tank by yourself while it's getting healed).

I'm also curious about the rooted/snared out of every encounter immediately comment. Personally, my single target 1+ minute root on a full det light tank hardly lasts long enough for me to get enough distance to get off one or two casts, but it doesn't seem like every tank goes that high in det despite how relatively cheap it is (other passives cost more than 50% more in RA points to get to the same level). Are there many tanks that consistently experience this issue with root? I would honestly expect tanks to love being rooted because, with high det, it'll wear off quickly or can be purged and then they're immune to snares. In fact, is forcing your enemies to root your tanks not a real countermeasure against groups that have a good snare game? That's not a rhetorical question; I truly don't know and can't think of any other counterplays other than maybe choosing advantageous terrain to fight on.

I don't really have skin in this, so if something were done to help light tanks, I'm fine with that. I'm just curious about whether they're really in a bad place. I know /serverinfo 50 often has tanks all below casters, but I assume some of that is because casters tend to make better farmers, not necessarily because casters are the meta for RvR.
Sat 30 May 2020 5:46 AM by andreynk257
To further point out some of the disadvantages of melees against casters:
- Casters nuke light tanks at least 2x as hard as light tanks hit them back. So for a light tank to even close distance on a caster while getting nuked, diseased/snared/stunned/mezzed and then finally MOCed and nuked in place is just silly.
- When casters lower their cast speed with higher DEX their damage per hit does not go down while melees that lower their swing speed with higher QUI see their style damage go down considerably
- Casters get group PBT to negate melee attacks while melees do not receive anything of the nature to negate caster damage.


Some melee nerfs on this server that affects the melee vs caster balance:
- HP Raised
- AF Rating Raised
- No Charge RA ability

Let me know what I missed.
Sat 30 May 2020 5:47 AM by Cadebrennus
Remove PD. Problem solved, problem staying solved.
Sat 30 May 2020 5:49 AM by andreynk257
As far as PD I would actually argue that its fair because melees have the Avoidance of Magic to counter and both give the same amounts per points spent.
Sat 30 May 2020 10:57 AM by Cadebrennus
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 5:49 AM
As far as PD I would actually argue that its fair because melees have the Avoidance of Magic to counter and both give the same amounts per points spent.

Melee simply can't put out the damage numbers that Casters can. Caster damage should come with a consequence. PD removes that consequence.
Sat 30 May 2020 11:53 AM by Enyore
I play a Merc(rr7) and a BM(rr8).... I do not at all recognise the problems described by the author.

First of all, best thing that can happen is a root that will render you immune to melee snares for a minute..... red root last 11 seconds and you start accelerating after around 4-5 seconds..... This is NOT a problem.

Nerfing melee snares so that they give immunity will only help to "simplify" the game and is not a solution as this is not a real problem - if you are skilled you will counter peel/snare the opponent to get free.... Melee snare mechanic is not the problem here, you skills and tactics are.

Low damage output remark is understandable, but its a question about your realm rank and how you choose to calculate/look at it.... 2 x higher chance of shooting off procs, flurry ability + the possibility to actually cap you attack speed completely for relatively low costs in realm skill points compare to others (When buffed by standard 40 nurt druid (+ 83 quick buff) on my BM I have 1.5 sec swing speed with 3.9 in main hand by having only Aug Quick 2 (251 total) and MoArms 4, thats only 9 points spent on capping attack speed completely (takes some more points on the merc tough).
Also, alot of defence makes you harder to peel by melees compared to heavy tanks.

Someone else suggested removing PD.... sure could help for some tanks, but will completely tip the scale for savages and we will be back to savages 2 hitting casters........ no thanks.

Frankly speaking i dont recognize the problems described here, i still find melee groups to be the strongest when played well.
Sat 30 May 2020 12:03 PM by andreynk257
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 10:57 AM
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 5:49 AM
As far as PD I would actually argue that its fair because melees have the Avoidance of Magic to counter and both give the same amounts per points spent.

Melee simply can't put out the damage numbers that Casters can. Caster damage should come with a consequence. PD removes that consequence.

Correct and I think ultimately we want the same thing, which is for light tanks to do more damage on the casters. Ultimately I think melees need to do at least 30% more base damage on casters as the game stands now because its getting ridiculous with how easy they can range nuke you before you even get to them, that is if you are ever even able to get to them before being stopped by some sort of CC/snare. On my savage fully buffed it can take over 6 single hits (when the Rng is poor) to kill a caster and that is f'n ridiculous! They need to drop in 3-4 hits max if I was able to gain position on them on the battlefield.

Determination 9 is not a replacement for the old Charge RA because it does not affect roots/diseases while mezzes /stuns can still last around 9 seconds which is an eternity. Currently in this state of the game its all about kiting tanks and that is the same as being mezzed and taken out of the fight. Running light tank groups without old Charge against caster groups (with all the other nerfs stacked in caster's favor on this server) just really makes it a one sided fight.
Sat 30 May 2020 5:29 PM by joshisanonymous
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 10:57 AM
Melee simply can't put out the damage numbers that Casters can. Caster damage should come with a consequence. PD removes that consequence.

What about the consequence of casters being incredibly easy to shut down? What other MMO has such a severe interrupt system for casters?

andreynk257 wrote: To further point out some of the disadvantages of melees against casters:
- Casters nuke light tanks at least 2x as hard as light tanks hit them back. So for a light tank to even close distance on a caster while getting nuked, diseased/snared/stunned/mezzed and then finally MOCed and nuked in place is just silly.
- When casters lower their cast speed with higher DEX their damage per hit does not go down while melees that lower their swing speed with higher QUI see their style damage go down considerably
- Casters get group PBT to negate melee attacks while melees do not receive anything of the nature to negate caster damage.


Some melee nerfs on this server that affects the melee vs caster balance:
- Mastery of Pain critical hit damage capped to 30%
- AF rating raised
- No Charge ability

Let me know what I missed.

Honestly, this list is a bit absurd.
  • Yes casters (arguably) hit harder than light tanks, but they also hit for zero if someone so much as tickles them. If your only choice is to run into full on nukes and hope you survive long enough to hit something, maybe your group just isn't doing well in the interrupting department?
  • Doesn't swing speed ultimately increase DPS? I'm not sure about how that works, but I haven't heard of people avoiding capping their swing speed to keep their DPS high since before TOA came out, so I assume you get overall higher DPS with higher swing speed.
  • Nothing like PBT for tanks? How about resists buffs? Way more HPs? Empty mind? And again, interrupts?
  • The crit hit change was not just MoP, it was also Wild Power, the caster version of MoP. Not sure why you list this as a melee only nerf.
  • I'm not even sure what this AF thing you're talking about is. I double checked the patch notes and the only mentions of AF refer to fixes and an AF reduction.
  • This goes back to the ability to have so much Det at such a cheap cost that any CC other than snares is basically pointless against light tanks. And again, you're mistaken in thinking that root is not affected by Det. Also, Enyore just confirmed my intuition that getting rooted is actually a good thing if you're a light tank because it lasts a short amount of time and makes you immune to snares.

Still not really seeing how light tanks are in a terrible position. I'm open to the idea, but so far the problems listed seem to ignore a lot of mechanics of how casters work vs light tanks.
Sat 30 May 2020 5:34 PM by Cadebrennus
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 12:03 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 10:57 AM
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 5:49 AM
As far as PD I would actually argue that its fair because melees have the Avoidance of Magic to counter and both give the same amounts per points spent.

Melee simply can't put out the damage numbers that Casters can. Caster damage should come with a consequence. PD removes that consequence.

Correct and I think ultimately we want the same thing, which is for light tanks to do more damage on the casters. Ultimately I think melees need to do at least 30% more base damage on casters as the game stands now because its getting ridiculous with how easy they can range nuke you before you even get to them, that is if you are ever even able to get to them before being stopped by some sort of CC/snare. On my savage fully buffed it can take over 6 single hits (when the Rng is poor) to kill a caster and that is f'n ridiculous! They need to drop in 3-4 hits max if I was able to gain position on them on the battlefield.

Determination 9 is not a replacement for the old Charge RA because it does not affect roots/diseases while mezzes /stuns can still last around 9 seconds which is an eternity. Currently in this state of the game its all about kiting tanks and that is the same as being mezzed and taken out of the fight. Running light tank groups without old Charge against caster groups (with all the other nerfs stacked in caster's favor on this server) just really makes it a one sided fight.

A Light and Heavy Tank DPS boost would make them super OP'ed vs Hybrids and Stealthers and allow them to melt Casters way too quickly. Removing PD from the game would give everyone that uses weapon styles a boost, but it would be proportional to the class. Light and Heavy Tanks would receive the greatest boost of course, from removing PD.
Sat 30 May 2020 5:39 PM by Cadebrennus
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 5:29 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 10:57 AM
Melee simply can't put out the damage numbers that Casters can. Caster damage should come with a consequence. PD removes that consequence.

What about the consequence of casters being incredibly easy to shut down? What other MMO has such a severe interrupt system for casters?

andreynk257 wrote: To further point out some of the disadvantages of melees against casters:
- Casters nuke light tanks at least 2x as hard as light tanks hit them back. So for a light tank to even close distance on a caster while getting nuked, diseased/snared/stunned/mezzed and then finally MOCed and nuked in place is just silly.
- When casters lower their cast speed with higher DEX their damage per hit does not go down while melees that lower their swing speed with higher QUI see their style damage go down considerably
- Casters get group PBT to negate melee attacks while melees do not receive anything of the nature to negate caster damage.


Some melee nerfs on this server that affects the melee vs caster balance:
- Mastery of Pain critical hit damage capped to 30%
- AF rating raised
- No Charge ability

Let me know what I missed.

Honestly, this list is a bit absurd.
  • Yes casters (arguably) hit harder than light tanks, but they also hit for zero if someone so much as tickles them. If your only choice is to run into full on nukes and hope you survive long enough to hit something, maybe your group just isn't doing well in the interrupting department?
  • Doesn't swing speed ultimately increase DPS? I'm not sure about how that works, but I haven't heard of people avoiding capping their swing speed to keep their DPS high since before TOA came out, so I assume you get overall higher DPS with higher swing speed.
  • Nothing like PBT for tanks? How about resists buffs? Way more HPs? Empty mind? And again, interrupts?
  • The crit hit change was not just MoP, it was also Wild Power, the caster version of MoP. Not sure why you list this as a melee only nerf.
  • I'm not even sure what this AF thing you're talking about is. I double checked the patch notes and the only mentions of AF refer to fixes and an AF reduction.
  • This goes back to the ability to have so much Det at such a cheap cost that any CC other than snares is basically pointless against light tanks. And again, you're mistaken in thinking that root is not affected by Det. Also, Enyore just confirmed my intuition that getting rooted is actually a good thing if you're a light tank because it lasts a short amount of time and makes you immune to snares.

Still not really seeing how light tanks are in a terrible position. I'm open to the idea, but so far the problems listed seem to ignore a lot of mechanics of how casters work vs light tanks.

The severe interrupt system is what separates this MMO from other MMOs. In other MMOs your character can be doing the equivalent of an MMA "ground and pound" to a Caster/Archer yet will still eat a face full of unstoppable Caster/Archer damage

Casters here are rewarded with incredible damage by a) good positioning, b) avoiding the interrupts, c) teamwork by having another caster or melee peel for them. It seems like a good trade-off for the severe interrupt system.
Sat 30 May 2020 7:18 PM by tibofeif
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 5:39 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 5:29 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 10:57 AM
Melee simply can't put out the damage numbers that Casters can. Caster damage should come with a consequence. PD removes that consequence.

What about the consequence of casters being incredibly easy to shut down? What other MMO has such a severe interrupt system for casters?

andreynk257 wrote: To further point out some of the disadvantages of melees against casters:
- Casters nuke light tanks at least 2x as hard as light tanks hit them back. So for a light tank to even close distance on a caster while getting nuked, diseased/snared/stunned/mezzed and then finally MOCed and nuked in place is just silly.
- When casters lower their cast speed with higher DEX their damage per hit does not go down while melees that lower their swing speed with higher QUI see their style damage go down considerably
- Casters get group PBT to negate melee attacks while melees do not receive anything of the nature to negate caster damage.


Some melee nerfs on this server that affects the melee vs caster balance:
- Mastery of Pain critical hit damage capped to 30%
- AF rating raised
- No Charge ability

Let me know what I missed.

Honestly, this list is a bit absurd.
  • Yes casters (arguably) hit harder than light tanks, but they also hit for zero if someone so much as tickles them. If your only choice is to run into full on nukes and hope you survive long enough to hit something, maybe your group just isn't doing well in the interrupting department?
  • Doesn't swing speed ultimately increase DPS? I'm not sure about how that works, but I haven't heard of people avoiding capping their swing speed to keep their DPS high since before TOA came out, so I assume you get overall higher DPS with higher swing speed.
  • Nothing like PBT for tanks? How about resists buffs? Way more HPs? Empty mind? And again, interrupts?
  • The crit hit change was not just MoP, it was also Wild Power, the caster version of MoP. Not sure why you list this as a melee only nerf.
  • I'm not even sure what this AF thing you're talking about is. I double checked the patch notes and the only mentions of AF refer to fixes and an AF reduction.
  • This goes back to the ability to have so much Det at such a cheap cost that any CC other than snares is basically pointless against light tanks. And again, you're mistaken in thinking that root is not affected by Det. Also, Enyore just confirmed my intuition that getting rooted is actually a good thing if you're a light tank because it lasts a short amount of time and makes you immune to snares.

Still not really seeing how light tanks are in a terrible position. I'm open to the idea, but so far the problems listed seem to ignore a lot of mechanics of how casters work vs light tanks.

The severe interrupt system is what separates this MMO from other MMOs. In other MMOs your character can be doing the equivalent of an MMA "ground and pound" to a Caster/Archer yet will still eat a face full of unstoppable Caster/Archer damage

Casters here are rewarded with incredible damage by a) good positioning, b) avoiding the interrupts, c) teamwork by having another caster or melee peel for them. It seems like a good trade-off for the severe interrupt system.

Agreed this is how it's supposed to be but as it stands currently positioning doesn't matter thanks MoC, and the fact casters can be healed through damage rather easily it makes it too forgiving for positioning.

I think Kroll makes a good point about capping weapon speed. Maybe they should do the same type of formula for caster damage when they hit the casting speed cap. I mean it is still an increase in damage but you lose some of the damage per cast.
Sat 30 May 2020 8:33 PM by gotwqqd
tibofeif wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 7:18 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 5:39 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 5:29 PM
What about the consequence of casters being incredibly easy to shut down? What other MMO has such a severe interrupt system for casters?



Honestly, this list is a bit absurd.
  • Yes casters (arguably) hit harder than light tanks, but they also hit for zero if someone so much as tickles them. If your only choice is to run into full on nukes and hope you survive long enough to hit something, maybe your group just isn't doing well in the interrupting department?
  • Doesn't swing speed ultimately increase DPS? I'm not sure about how that works, but I haven't heard of people avoiding capping their swing speed to keep their DPS high since before TOA came out, so I assume you get overall higher DPS with higher swing speed.
  • Nothing like PBT for tanks? How about resists buffs? Way more HPs? Empty mind? And again, interrupts?
  • The crit hit change was not just MoP, it was also Wild Power, the caster version of MoP. Not sure why you list this as a melee only nerf.
  • I'm not even sure what this AF thing you're talking about is. I double checked the patch notes and the only mentions of AF refer to fixes and an AF reduction.
  • This goes back to the ability to have so much Det at such a cheap cost that any CC other than snares is basically pointless against light tanks. And again, you're mistaken in thinking that root is not affected by Det. Also, Enyore just confirmed my intuition that getting rooted is actually a good thing if you're a light tank because it lasts a short amount of time and makes you immune to snares.

Still not really seeing how light tanks are in a terrible position. I'm open to the idea, but so far the problems listed seem to ignore a lot of mechanics of how casters work vs light tanks.

The severe interrupt system is what separates this MMO from other MMOs. In other MMOs your character can be doing the equivalent of an MMA "ground and pound" to a Caster/Archer yet will still eat a face full of unstoppable Caster/Archer damage

Casters here are rewarded with incredible damage by a) good positioning, b) avoiding the interrupts, c) teamwork by having another caster or melee peel for them. It seems like a good trade-off for the severe interrupt system.

Agreed this is how it's supposed to be but as it stands currently positioning doesn't matter thanks MoC, and the fact casters can be healed through damage rather easily it makes it too forgiving for positioning.

I think Kroll makes a good point about capping weapon speed. Maybe they should do the same type of formula for caster damage when they hit the casting speed cap. I mean it is still an increase in damage but you lose some of the damage per cast.
That’s impossible
Sat 30 May 2020 9:51 PM by Jeterix
I don't think that light tanks are weak. If anything the HP buff favored tanks more than casters. On my mercenary if I reach a caster I can kill him very quickly.

Not to mention light tanks have the switch command so they can slam people and switch back to dual wield really easily.

If you are facing a caster group in a tank group you may be at a disadvantage if both groups play really well. But that is countered by switching out one of your tanks for a nearsight caster.

If I was playing a caster and 3 tanks were on me I might be able to survive for a short time if I was getting insane heals but if either of my clerics got interrupted I would die in about 2 seconds.
Sat 30 May 2020 10:42 PM by gotwqqd
Jeterix wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 9:51 PM
I don't think that light tanks are weak. If anything the HP buff favored tanks more than casters. On my mercenary if I reach a caster I can kill him very quickly.

Not to mention light tanks have the switch command so they can slam people and switch back to dual wield really easily.

If you are facing a caster group in a tank group you may be at a disadvantage if both groups play really well. But that is countered by switching out one of your tanks for a nearsight caster.

If I was playing a caster and 3 tanks were on me I might be able to survive for a short time if I was getting insane heals but if either of my clerics got interrupted I would die in about 2 seconds.
Hell,
With a simple macro and the right speed weapons/ shield you can virtually have your shield up nearly all the time

Have shield equipped ,
Macro switch, swing, switch
Sat 30 May 2020 11:36 PM by Razur Ur
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 5:47 AM
Remove PD. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

remove pd and AF spec buffs from all realms!
Sat 30 May 2020 11:41 PM by Razur Ur
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 5:49 AM
As far as PD I would actually argue that its fair because melees have the Avoidance of Magic to counter and both give the same amounts per points spent.

ok than remove master of art, is a joke on this server that dont give a cast speed cap!!! a tank doesn't even come close to the attack speed of a caster!!! and nerf caster
debuff, there is no way the debuff minus resist. that is so broken!!!
Sun 31 May 2020 10:00 AM by hyshash
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 11:41 PM
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 5:49 AM
As far as PD I would actually argue that its fair because melees have the Avoidance of Magic to counter and both give the same amounts per points spent.

ok than remove master of art, is a joke on this server that dont give a cast speed cap!!! a tank doesn't even come close to the attack speed of a caster!!! and nerf caster
debuff, there is no way the debuff minus resist. that is so broken!!!

Razur you dont play your class nor does your grp play its grp setup even up to halv of what it could do plus your missing on knowledge regarding most basic mechanics (minus resist debuffs, svg taunt interrupt etc) maybe you shouldnt cry to loud about how unfair casters are here....

about everything else ... reading that ppl want their svg to 3 hit without procs/tripple/quads (wich would result into em 1hitting if a quad happens) or other suggestions like 30% base dmg increase just show how biased most ppl here are

actually imo the server is in a not to bad state regarding balancing atm maybe even a bit to much in the melee side with all the last major patches ... the only time caster grps seem to be op is when most of em are rr9+ or the main dps caster are rr11 and hit you for 550+ upon debuff but tbh ... as a rr11 thats how it should be
i would be way more concerned about the meta beeing kinda stale with every realm only having like 1-2 good setups
Sun 31 May 2020 12:29 PM by andreynk257
  • Yes casters (arguably) hit harder than light tanks, but they also hit for zero if someone so much as tickles them. If your only choice is to run into full on nukes and hope you survive long enough to hit something, maybe your group just isn't doing well in the interrupting department?
    - This is not an argument because if you are talking about being interrupted by a melee, a caster should loose when out of position and a tank has reached him before he could be nuked down. Oh but actually caster's get MoC so I guess they can nuke a tank down even when he is hitting them, which happens quiet often. With the current AF buff + PD RA + MoC I guess a caster actually can go toe to toe with a severely damaged tank and kill him quiet easily. But really I'm not talking about 1 vs 1 scenario but in a 8vs8 RVR setting where this problem because much much greater. Caster's are just ridiculous and even at RR5 can be difficult to take down with good support while doing much more damage than melees and still being rewarded when out of position.


  • Doesn't swing speed ultimately increase DPS? I'm not sure about how that works, but I haven't heard of people avoiding capping their swing speed to keep their DPS high since before TOA came out, so I assume you get overall higher DPS with higher swing speed.

    -Yes ultimately swing speed increases DPS but with the way the mechanic works for melees they loose some of the damage from the combat growth style bonus while their base weapon damage remains the same but no portion of the caster's nuke damage decreases as they increase their dexterity to cap their cast speed so essentially they get a much greater DPS increase than melees.

  • Nothing like PBT for tanks? How about resists buffs? Way more HPs? Empty mind? And again, interrupts?

    -Resists are a small percentage decrease in damage (+12-15%) while PBT will cause you to miss some of your swings so that's a 100% damage decrease per some of the attacks. How would you feel if there was a tank group ability that worked the same way as PBT but for all damage cast spells?

  • The crit hit change was not just MoP, it was also Wild Power, the caster version of MoP. Not sure why you list this as a melee only nerf.

    - Fair enough, I was not aware of that.

  • I'm not even sure what this AF thing you're talking about is. I double checked the patch notes and the only mentions of AF refer to fixes and an AF reduction.

    - Need to ask the Phoenix team to confirm this.
Sun 31 May 2020 12:53 PM by Siouxsie
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 5:47 AM
Remove PD. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

Yes. Remove PD from casters. I have been saying this ever since new new RAs got plopped onto this server.
It creates a MASSIVE imbalance in favor of casters.

Tanks and Archer classes are supposed to be able to mow down casters, not the other way around.
This is one of the biggest problems with Phoenix -- the fact that it's become Dark Age of Cast-a-lot
Sun 31 May 2020 12:59 PM by Cadebrennus
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 12:29 PM
  • Yes casters (arguably) hit harder than light tanks, but they also hit for zero if someone so much as tickles them. If your only choice is to run into full on nukes and hope you survive long enough to hit something, maybe your group just isn't doing well in the interrupting department?
    - This is not an argument because if you are talking about being interrupted by a melee, a caster should loose when out of position and a tank has reached him before he could be nuked down. Oh but actually caster's get MoC so I guess they can nuke a tank down even when he is hitting them, which happens quiet often. With the current AF buff + PD RA + MoC I guess a caster actually can go toe to toe with a severely damaged tank and kill him quiet easily. But really I'm not talking about 1 vs 1 scenario but in a 8vs8 RVR setting where this problem because much much greater. Caster's are just ridiculous and even at RR5 can be difficult to take down with good support while doing much more damage than melees and still being rewarded when out of position.


  • Doesn't swing speed ultimately increase DPS? I'm not sure about how that works, but I haven't heard of people avoiding capping their swing speed to keep their DPS high since before TOA came out, so I assume you get overall higher DPS with higher swing speed.

    -Yes ultimately swing speed increases DPS but with the way the mechanic works for melees they loose some of the damage from the combat growth style bonus while their base weapon damage remains the same but no portion of the caster's nuke damage decreases as they increase their dexterity to cap their cast speed so essentially they get a much greater DPS increase than melees.

  • Nothing like PBT for tanks? How about resists buffs? Way more HPs? Empty mind? And again, interrupts?

    -Resists are a small percentage decrease in damage (+12-15%) while PBT will cause you to miss some of your swings so that's a 100% damage decrease per some of the attacks. How would you feel if there was a tank group ability that worked the same way as PBT but for all damage cast spells?

  • The crit hit change was not just MoP, it was also Wild Power, the caster version of MoP. Not sure why you list this as a melee only nerf.

    - Fair enough, I was not aware of that.

  • I'm not even sure what this AF thing you're talking about is. I double checked the patch notes and the only mentions of AF refer to fixes and an AF reduction.

    - Need to ask the Phoenix team to confirm this.
    • [/quote]

    Agreed on the interrupting by your team. If they don't interrupt while you charge the enemy line then it's perfectly reasonable that the enemy Casters (plural) should obliterate you.

    While I'm not a fan of MoC it's fine on its own. You are 100% correct in that it's MoC + Oprah style spec AF buff + PD that makes it OP'ed.

    Faster weapon speed only increases base damage. It reduces style damage, so again, advantage goes to Casters. Faster weapon speed also decreases DA damage, so another negative for swinging a weapon.
Sun 31 May 2020 1:43 PM by Razur Ur
hyshash wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 10:00 AM
Razur you dont play your class nor does your grp play its grp setup even up to halv of what it could do plus your missing on knowledge regarding most basic mechanics (minus resist debuffs, svg taunt interrupt etc) maybe you shouldnt cry to loud about how unfair casters are here....

can you talk something else besides other people bad? i don't know who you are in the game, but you seem to know exactly how i play my champ ;-). please tell me in
which realm you play and what your chars are called :-)
Sun 31 May 2020 4:05 PM by gotwqqd
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 12:59 PM
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 12:29 PM
  • Yes casters (arguably) hit harder than light tanks, but they also hit for zero if someone so much as tickles them. If your only choice is to run into full on nukes and hope you survive long enough to hit something, maybe your group just isn't doing well in the interrupting department?
    - This is not an argument because if you are talking about being interrupted by a melee, a caster should loose when out of position and a tank has reached him before he could be nuked down. Oh but actually caster's get MoC so I guess they can nuke a tank down even when he is hitting them, which happens quiet often. With the current AF buff + PD RA + MoC I guess a caster actually can go toe to toe with a severely damaged tank and kill him quiet easily. But really I'm not talking about 1 vs 1 scenario but in a 8vs8 RVR setting where this problem because much much greater. Caster's are just ridiculous and even at RR5 can be difficult to take down with good support while doing much more damage than melees and still being rewarded when out of position.


  • Doesn't swing speed ultimately increase DPS? I'm not sure about how that works, but I haven't heard of people avoiding capping their swing speed to keep their DPS high since before TOA came out, so I assume you get overall higher DPS with higher swing speed.

    -Yes ultimately swing speed increases DPS but with the way the mechanic works for melees they loose some of the damage from the combat growth style bonus while their base weapon damage remains the same but no portion of the caster's nuke damage decreases as they increase their dexterity to cap their cast speed so essentially they get a much greater DPS increase than melees.

  • Nothing like PBT for tanks? How about resists buffs? Way more HPs? Empty mind? And again, interrupts?

    -Resists are a small percentage decrease in damage (+12-15%) while PBT will cause you to miss some of your swings so that's a 100% damage decrease per some of the attacks. How would you feel if there was a tank group ability that worked the same way as PBT but for all damage cast spells?

  • The crit hit change was not just MoP, it was also Wild Power, the caster version of MoP. Not sure why you list this as a melee only nerf.

    - Fair enough, I was not aware of that.

  • I'm not even sure what this AF thing you're talking about is. I double checked the patch notes and the only mentions of AF refer to fixes and an AF reduction.

    - Need to ask the Phoenix team to confirm this.
    • [/quote]

    Agreed on the interrupting by your team. If they don't interrupt while you charge the enemy line then it's perfectly reasonable that the enemy Casters (plural) should obliterate you.

    While I'm not a fan of MoC it's fine on its own. You are 100% correct in that it's MoC + Oprah style spec AF buff + PD that makes it OP'ed.

    Faster weapon speed only increases base damage. It reduces style damage, so again, advantage goes to Casters. Faster weapon speed also decreases DA damage, so another negative for swinging a weapon.
    [/quote]

    They are not negatives
    The dps for styles and da damage stay the same
    The dps for base damage increases...so increase of damage and better chance to interrupt
    I know proc damage is scaled to weapon speed... is the damage from procs scaled to faster swinging?
Sun 31 May 2020 5:47 PM by dougrighteous1
Lol @ option 2 & 3.

No one roots tanks because it screws up hinder. You say no caster should be able to survive 3 melee. Have you actually thought that through at all? You basically want other shit nerfed. GL.

Really, it's mostly mercs that suffer most, with bms at a close second. There's zero reason to grp a Merc or pally.
Mid melee groups don't need any love. Hib tank grps can support a BM, but aren't needed as hib tank groups aren't really a thing. Mostly hybrid set up.

You're better off requesting style changes so they don't suck.
Sun 31 May 2020 6:08 PM by hyshash
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 1:43 PM
can you talk something else besides other people bad? i don't know who you are in the game, but you seem to know exactly how i play my champ ;-). please tell me in
which realm you play and what your chars are called :-)
i just down talk other ppl when they bring up some bs like 90% of the things you write in this forum ... its allways the same ... melees are so bad casters are op buff my char nerv every caster nothing more without of any valid context or even basic knowledge of game mechanics
and all my chars got a name variation of my forum acc so just search for yourself ...

but back to topic its not like all melee classes need or deserve a buff ... maybe a few should get a better set of styles like the merc but style wise we have to wait for the overhaul anyway ... everything else is just a lack of skill or coordination talikg about grp vs grp
Sun 31 May 2020 9:58 PM by joshisanonymous
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 12:29 PM
  • Yes casters (arguably) hit harder than light tanks, but they also hit for zero if someone so much as tickles them. If your only choice is to run into full on nukes and hope you survive long enough to hit something, maybe your group just isn't doing well in the interrupting department?
    - This is not an argument because if you are talking about being interrupted by a melee, a caster should loose when out of position and a tank has reached him before he could be nuked down. Oh but actually caster's get MoC so I guess they can nuke a tank down even when he is hitting them, which happens quiet often. With the current AF buff + PD RA + MoC I guess a caster actually can go toe to toe with a severely damaged tank and kill him quiet easily. But really I'm not talking about 1 vs 1 scenario but in a 8vs8 RVR setting where this problem because much much greater. Caster's are just ridiculous and even at RR5 can be difficult to take down with good support while doing much more damage than melees and still being rewarded when out of position.


  • Doesn't swing speed ultimately increase DPS? I'm not sure about how that works, but I haven't heard of people avoiding capping their swing speed to keep their DPS high since before TOA came out, so I assume you get overall higher DPS with higher swing speed.

    -Yes ultimately swing speed increases DPS but with the way the mechanic works for melees they loose some of the damage from the combat growth style bonus while their base weapon damage remains the same but no portion of the caster's nuke damage decreases as they increase their dexterity to cap their cast speed so essentially they get a much greater DPS increase than melees.

  • Nothing like PBT for tanks? How about resists buffs? Way more HPs? Empty mind? And again, interrupts?

    -Resists are a small percentage decrease in damage (+12-15%) while PBT will cause you to miss some of your swings so that's a 100% damage decrease per some of the attacks. How would you feel if there was a tank group ability that worked the same way as PBT but for all damage cast spells?

  • The crit hit change was not just MoP, it was also Wild Power, the caster version of MoP. Not sure why you list this as a melee only nerf.

    - Fair enough, I was not aware of that.

  • I'm not even sure what this AF thing you're talking about is. I double checked the patch notes and the only mentions of AF refer to fixes and an AF reduction.

    - Need to ask the Phoenix team to confirm this.
    • [/quote]

    You seem like you're being a bit wilfully oblivious to what caster damage is really like. Resists aren't a big deal? Just MoC and a light tank is dead? Sure, you try solo nuking down a light tank that has resist buffs while MoCing and see how far you get. I guarantee you the only way that tank is dying is if they and their heals fall asleep at the keyboard or another caster(s) comes to assist when your support fails to interrupt them. Maybe they have a chance of killing the tank if they're a PBAoE class, but all you have to do is take 3 steps back to ruin that strategy for them.

    To give you some numbers to work with, if I MoC on a fully templated tank that has yellow resist buffs up, I'm losing 25% of my damage from MoC first then another 34% from item resists and resist buffs. My spec LT hits for 367 cap without any damage RAs (I'm 7L4, so MoC+cast speed RAs leaves me with no damage RAs). That means I'm nuking that light tank for about 182 roughly every 1.2 seconds. How many HPs does your light tank have? I'm guessing upwards of 2600? Hell, let's just go totally in favor of your argument that you can't survive nukes and assume you only have 2000 HPs as a fully buffed light tank, and let's say that I actually do 200 damage every 1.2 seconds instead. That means I need to nuke you 10 times in a row without you getting a single heal or using IP or using a health pot or using the legion heal. This would take 12 seconds, during which your group would also not be stunning me or mezzing me (or I'd have to be immune to mez already) or debuffing my dex. In fact, there's a good chance that I'll have to pop a power pot and chunk of legion during this time just to have enough power to burn through your HPs if we end up in this ideal scenario in the first place.

    In all reality, though, you probably do have more than 2000 HPs, I'm probably dex debuffed, and I'm only hitting for 200 if I'm RR9+. If you find yourself dying to casters all the time, my guess is that it's multiple casters coordinating their attacks on you from good positioning, and I'm sure you would mow down those casters yourself if they had bad positioning and you had multiple melees coordinating attacks just the same.
Sun 31 May 2020 10:37 PM by Cadebrennus
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 4:05 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 12:59 PM
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 12:29 PM
  • Yes casters (arguably) hit harder than light tanks, but they also hit for zero if someone so much as tickles them. If your only choice is to run into full on nukes and hope you survive long enough to hit something, maybe your group just isn't doing well in the interrupting department?
    - This is not an argument because if you are talking about being interrupted by a melee, a caster should loose when out of position and a tank has reached him before he could be nuked down. Oh but actually caster's get MoC so I guess they can nuke a tank down even when he is hitting them, which happens quiet often. With the current AF buff + PD RA + MoC I guess a caster actually can go toe to toe with a severely damaged tank and kill him quiet easily. But really I'm not talking about 1 vs 1 scenario but in a 8vs8 RVR setting where this problem because much much greater. Caster's are just ridiculous and even at RR5 can be difficult to take down with good support while doing much more damage than melees and still being rewarded when out of position.


  • Doesn't swing speed ultimately increase DPS? I'm not sure about how that works, but I haven't heard of people avoiding capping their swing speed to keep their DPS high since before TOA came out, so I assume you get overall higher DPS with higher swing speed.

    -Yes ultimately swing speed increases DPS but with the way the mechanic works for melees they loose some of the damage from the combat growth style bonus while their base weapon damage remains the same but no portion of the caster's nuke damage decreases as they increase their dexterity to cap their cast speed so essentially they get a much greater DPS increase than melees.

  • Nothing like PBT for tanks? How about resists buffs? Way more HPs? Empty mind? And again, interrupts?

    -Resists are a small percentage decrease in damage (+12-15%) while PBT will cause you to miss some of your swings so that's a 100% damage decrease per some of the attacks. How would you feel if there was a tank group ability that worked the same way as PBT but for all damage cast spells?

  • The crit hit change was not just MoP, it was also Wild Power, the caster version of MoP. Not sure why you list this as a melee only nerf.

    - Fair enough, I was not aware of that.

  • I'm not even sure what this AF thing you're talking about is. I double checked the patch notes and the only mentions of AF refer to fixes and an AF reduction.

    - Need to ask the Phoenix team to confirm this.
    • [/quote]

    Agreed on the interrupting by your team. If they don't interrupt while you charge the enemy line then it's perfectly reasonable that the enemy Casters (plural) should obliterate you.

    While I'm not a fan of MoC it's fine on its own. You are 100% correct in that it's MoC + Oprah style spec AF buff + PD that makes it OP'ed.

    Faster weapon speed only increases base damage. It reduces style damage, so again, advantage goes to Casters. Faster weapon speed also decreases DA damage, so another negative for swinging a weapon.
    [/quote]

    They are not negatives
    The dps for styles and da damage stay the same
    The dps for base damage increases...so increase of damage and better chance to interrupt
    I know proc damage is scaled to weapon speed... is the damage from procs scaled to faster swinging?
    [/quote]

    On the same character use different weapons to see the damage difference based on speed. You'll see a difference with DA as well.

    Proc damage and proc rate is unaffected by actual swing speed. Proc rate is only affected by the weapon's listed speed, regardless of how fast the character can actually swing the weapon.
Mon 1 Jun 2020 12:00 AM by Chamie
Dont wanna sound offensive but is this post a troll? Have you been following the GvG scene lately? Literally everyone has switched to tanker setup because caster groups are barely playable in the current meta / patch. There is only the Jimd group running a mid catser lineup at the moment, literally everyone else is either a hybrid with max 2 casters or full tanker.

Most of Albion has even stopped running sorc and just run double minstrel instead to not need to have a caster.
Mon 1 Jun 2020 4:25 AM by Nephamael
Alb (Body-) Castergrps have been oppressive from the start of the server, after all changes they still are, cause they have the best utility of all casters in their debuff train(Cabba, Sorc). On Top they have tons of pets and the ever oppressive moc counter unccable minstrel and his pet.

Then again Hib Castergrps are being outranged by mid tankgrps (1 Eld 2300 range nearsight vs 2 Healers 2300 range amnesia). So Mid Tanker vs Hib Caster is either to be considered balanced or in favor of Mid Tanker.

The imbalance of Alb caster vs Hib caster is therefore obvious, wich is the main reason why most hib 8men play tanker setups (especially since the Bard is now crippled to 2k range with his cooldown amnesia and can only viably rupt when in a pushing grp).
----

Then again - Tanker is A LOT easier to play well than a caster kite grp and a lot more forgiving about small mistakes. A bad kite grp that doesn't get a kite off or caught offguard dies within half a minute, a tankgrp can recover even when losing a tank here and there or being caught in a bad engage.

-----

None the less i would support Charge as an active ability giving root/snare immunity without speed increase) with a 10 min cooldown. - It would make Tankgrps pretty oppressive but not unbeatable and surely need some buff for hib castergrps to stay in balance.
Mon 1 Jun 2020 12:31 PM by andreynk257
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 9:58 PM
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 12:29 PM
  • Yes casters (arguably) hit harder than light tanks, but they also hit for zero if someone so much as tickles them. If your only choice is to run into full on nukes and hope you survive long enough to hit something, maybe your group just isn't doing well in the interrupting department?
    - This is not an argument because if you are talking about being interrupted by a melee, a caster should loose when out of position and a tank has reached him before he could be nuked down. Oh but actually caster's get MoC so I guess they can nuke a tank down even when he is hitting them, which happens quiet often. With the current AF buff + PD RA + MoC I guess a caster actually can go toe to toe with a severely damaged tank and kill him quiet easily. But really I'm not talking about 1 vs 1 scenario but in a 8vs8 RVR setting where this problem because much much greater. Caster's are just ridiculous and even at RR5 can be difficult to take down with good support while doing much more damage than melees and still being rewarded when out of position.


  • Doesn't swing speed ultimately increase DPS? I'm not sure about how that works, but I haven't heard of people avoiding capping their swing speed to keep their DPS high since before TOA came out, so I assume you get overall higher DPS with higher swing speed.

    -Yes ultimately swing speed increases DPS but with the way the mechanic works for melees they loose some of the damage from the combat growth style bonus while their base weapon damage remains the same but no portion of the caster's nuke damage decreases as they increase their dexterity to cap their cast speed so essentially they get a much greater DPS increase than melees.

  • Nothing like PBT for tanks? How about resists buffs? Way more HPs? Empty mind? And again, interrupts?

    -Resists are a small percentage decrease in damage (+12-15%) while PBT will cause you to miss some of your swings so that's a 100% damage decrease per some of the attacks. How would you feel if there was a tank group ability that worked the same way as PBT but for all damage cast spells?

  • The crit hit change was not just MoP, it was also Wild Power, the caster version of MoP. Not sure why you list this as a melee only nerf.

    - Fair enough, I was not aware of that.

  • I'm not even sure what this AF thing you're talking about is. I double checked the patch notes and the only mentions of AF refer to fixes and an AF reduction.

    - Need to ask the Phoenix team to confirm this.
    • [/quote]

    You seem like you're being a bit wilfully oblivious to what caster damage is really like. Resists aren't a big deal? Just MoC and a light tank is dead? Sure, you try solo nuking down a light tank that has resist buffs while MoCing and see how far you get. I guarantee you the only way that tank is dying is if they and their heals fall asleep at the keyboard or another caster(s) comes to assist when your support fails to interrupt them. Maybe they have a chance of killing the tank if they're a PBAoE class, but all you have to do is take 3 steps back to ruin that strategy for them.

    To give you some numbers to work with, if I MoC on a fully templated tank that has yellow resist buffs up, I'm losing 25% of my damage from MoC first then another 34% from item resists and resist buffs. My spec LT hits for 367 cap without any damage RAs (I'm 7L4, so MoC+cast speed RAs leaves me with no damage RAs). That means I'm nuking that light tank for about 182 roughly every 1.2 seconds. How many HPs does your light tank have? I'm guessing upwards of 2600? Hell, let's just go totally in favor of your argument that you can't survive nukes and assume you only have 2000 HPs as a fully buffed light tank, and let's say that I actually do 200 damage every 1.2 seconds instead. That means I need to nuke you 10 times in a row without you getting a single heal or using IP or using a health pot or using the legion heal. This would take 12 seconds, during which your group would also not be stunning me or mezzing me (or I'd have to be immune to mez already) or debuffing my dex. In fact, there's a good chance that I'll have to pop a power pot and chunk of legion during this time just to have enough power to burn through your HPs if we end up in this ideal scenario in the first place.

    In all reality, though, you probably do have more than 2000 HPs, I'm probably dex debuffed, and I'm only hitting for 200 if I'm RR9+. If you find yourself dying to casters all the time, my guess is that it's multiple casters coordinating their attacks on you from good positioning, and I'm sure you would mow down those casters yourself if they had bad positioning and you had multiple melees coordinating attacks just the same.
    [/quote]


    At least a caster has a chance to kill me while MOCing when I close on him, while i have 0 chance to kill him from a distance. How about all the extra utility casters have for their groups in addition to doing all that damage? What the f' does a light tank have besides single target damage ability? Answer, not much. As far as damage/HP between casters and light tanks goes, on average a caster will nuke me in less hits than it will take me to kill them and on top of that he has a chance to finish me off when I close in on him by using MoC. Casters hit me for 400s-500s a pop on average (fully buffed and templated), I don't know where the 200 figure comes from. Here's another perspective, its much easier to keep a caster alive while 3 light tanks are on him since a caster can kite/strafe to ruin some of the styled/positional melee damage, its impossible to keep a light tank alive while 3 casters assist on him.

    Do you begin to the see picture yet or should we keep going? Fact of the matter is melees are nerfed on this server period but I would argue that this impacts light tanks the most since they have no other group utility but to put dps down on support. So I argue and ask the Phoenix team to take notice and do something about the current state by either adding back Charge RA or upping some of the base damage to counter this imbalance.
Fri 5 Jun 2020 12:20 PM by andreynk257
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 9:58 PM
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Sun 31 May 2020 12:29 PM
  • Yes casters (arguably) hit harder than light tanks, but they also hit for zero if someone so much as tickles them. If your only choice is to run into full on nukes and hope you survive long enough to hit something, maybe your group just isn't doing well in the interrupting department?
    - This is not an argument because if you are talking about being interrupted by a melee, a caster should loose when out of position and a tank has reached him before he could be nuked down. Oh but actually caster's get MoC so I guess they can nuke a tank down even when he is hitting them, which happens quiet often. With the current AF buff + PD RA + MoC I guess a caster actually can go toe to toe with a severely damaged tank and kill him quiet easily. But really I'm not talking about 1 vs 1 scenario but in a 8vs8 RVR setting where this problem because much much greater. Caster's are just ridiculous and even at RR5 can be difficult to take down with good support while doing much more damage than melees and still being rewarded when out of position.


  • Doesn't swing speed ultimately increase DPS? I'm not sure about how that works, but I haven't heard of people avoiding capping their swing speed to keep their DPS high since before TOA came out, so I assume you get overall higher DPS with higher swing speed.

    -Yes ultimately swing speed increases DPS but with the way the mechanic works for melees they loose some of the damage from the combat growth style bonus while their base weapon damage remains the same but no portion of the caster's nuke damage decreases as they increase their dexterity to cap their cast speed so essentially they get a much greater DPS increase than melees.

  • Nothing like PBT for tanks? How about resists buffs? Way more HPs? Empty mind? And again, interrupts?

    -Resists are a small percentage decrease in damage (+12-15%) while PBT will cause you to miss some of your swings so that's a 100% damage decrease per some of the attacks. How would you feel if there was a tank group ability that worked the same way as PBT but for all damage cast spells?

  • The crit hit change was not just MoP, it was also Wild Power, the caster version of MoP. Not sure why you list this as a melee only nerf.

    - Fair enough, I was not aware of that.

  • I'm not even sure what this AF thing you're talking about is. I double checked the patch notes and the only mentions of AF refer to fixes and an AF reduction.

    - Need to ask the Phoenix team to confirm this.
    • [/quote]

    You seem like you're being a bit wilfully oblivious to what caster damage is really like. Resists aren't a big deal? Just MoC and a light tank is dead? Sure, you try solo nuking down a light tank that has resist buffs while MoCing and see how far you get. I guarantee you the only way that tank is dying is if they and their heals fall asleep at the keyboard or another caster(s) comes to assist when your support fails to interrupt them. Maybe they have a chance of killing the tank if they're a PBAoE class, but all you have to do is take 3 steps back to ruin that strategy for them.

    To give you some numbers to work with, if I MoC on a fully templated tank that has yellow resist buffs up, I'm losing 25% of my damage from MoC first then another 34% from item resists and resist buffs. My spec LT hits for 367 cap without any damage RAs (I'm 7L4, so MoC+cast speed RAs leaves me with no damage RAs). That means I'm nuking that light tank for about 182 roughly every 1.2 seconds. How many HPs does your light tank have? I'm guessing upwards of 2600? Hell, let's just go totally in favor of your argument that you can't survive nukes and assume you only have 2000 HPs as a fully buffed light tank, and let's say that I actually do 200 damage every 1.2 seconds instead. That means I need to nuke you 10 times in a row without you getting a single heal or using IP or using a health pot or using the legion heal. This would take 12 seconds, during which your group would also not be stunning me or mezzing me (or I'd have to be immune to mez already) or debuffing my dex. In fact, there's a good chance that I'll have to pop a power pot and chunk of legion during this time just to have enough power to burn through your HPs if we end up in this ideal scenario in the first place.

    In all reality, though, you probably do have more than 2000 HPs, I'm probably dex debuffed, and I'm only hitting for 200 if I'm RR9+. If you find yourself dying to casters all the time, my guess is that it's multiple casters coordinating their attacks on you from good positioning, and I'm sure you would mow down those casters yourself if they had bad positioning and you had multiple melees coordinating attacks just the same.
    [/quote]

    Josh you make a good point on 1 vs 1 type of scenario but I still feel there is a great imbalance with caster vs melee in a group setting as they can self/group debuff and hit for greater damage and they can easily assist on different targets quickly vs melee train having to run from one target to another while fighting various type of CC (snares, diseases, roots, etc) in the process. It's much much easier for caster assist train to put their dps down and just mow through people than it is for a melee tank train to reach them and then try to take one caster down with their inferior damage and dps delivery method while fighting through heals, its not even a competition because you cannot out-heal 3 dmg specced casters coordinating nukes on you but you can easily out-heal 3 savages on a single target, which is pretty ridiculous. I'm not asking to nerf caster damage, I'm simply asking to balance things to where when the light tanks finally reach casters we can actually have the same chances of killing them quickly because that is all we can do for the group. Light tanks bring no other utility to the group than to do dps while casters with superior dps also have all sort of additional group utility.

    So to sum this up and link back to original post I would like to see either one of two things:

    1) slightly raise light tank damage on casters directly or indirectly by lowering caster defenses
    OR
    2) add the old Charge RA so that light tanks have better odds of staying on target

    P.S. Also I'm only addressing light tanks here, I feel that heavy tanks are still balanced fairly well due to their high weapon skill, HP, defense, high single hit damage, and most importantly the anytime 9 second shield slam for peeling which is extremely effective against light tanks. I just don't feel that light tanks are very effective and it can take literally half the casters to do the same damage and actually be more effective with it.
Fri 5 Jun 2020 12:30 PM by Lollie
If 3 casters are nuking you without interpution you need a word with your bard/sorc/mini/healer/shaman and ask them what they are up to as that is kind of what they should be doing.
Mon 8 Jun 2020 7:50 AM by Sepplord
Lollie wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Jun 2020 12:30 PM
If 3 casters are nuking you without interpution you need a word with your bard/sorc/mini/healer/shaman and ask them what they are up to as that is kind of what they should be doing.

you say that as if it is somehow easier to interruppt three spread out casters as a single person

than

turning around and moving away from a tanktrain coming for you
Mon 8 Jun 2020 5:20 PM by Cadebrennus
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Jun 2020 7:50 AM
Lollie wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Jun 2020 12:30 PM
If 3 casters are nuking you without interpution you need a word with your bard/sorc/mini/healer/shaman and ask them what they are up to as that is kind of what they should be doing.

you say that as if it is somehow easier to interruppt three spread out casters as a single person

than

turning around and moving away from a tanktrain coming for you

An Archer could do it. I did it all the time on Live and did it all the time here. 1 Archer, 3 Casters, no problem. The only thing you need to fear is Nearsight.

https://youtu.be/TGsUopwl-lY

(The vid is only 2 minutes long, not 14.)
Tue 9 Jun 2020 4:37 AM by joshisanonymous
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Jun 2020 7:50 AM
Lollie wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Jun 2020 12:30 PM
If 3 casters are nuking you without interpution you need a word with your bard/sorc/mini/healer/shaman and ask them what they are up to as that is kind of what they should be doing.

you say that as if it is somehow easier to interruppt three spread out casters as a single person

than

turning around and moving away from a tanktrain coming for you

If they're not getting interrupted because they're too spread out for the group's interrupters to manage, then they're positioning themselves well and probably should do well as a result, no? Are we talking about light tanks being inherently weaker than casters in this case, or are we just talking about a well-played group of casters being able to effectively kill a light tank that made a bad decision?
Tue 9 Jun 2020 7:06 AM by Sepplord
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Jun 2020 4:37 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Jun 2020 7:50 AM
Lollie wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Jun 2020 12:30 PM
If 3 casters are nuking you without interpution you need a word with your bard/sorc/mini/healer/shaman and ask them what they are up to as that is kind of what they should be doing.

you say that as if it is somehow easier to interruppt three spread out casters as a single person

than

turning around and moving away from a tanktrain coming for you

If they're not getting interrupted because they're too spread out for the group's interrupters to manage, then they're positioning themselves well and probably should do well as a result, no? Are we talking about light tanks being inherently weaker than casters in this case, or are we just talking about a well-played group of casters being able to effectively kill a light tank that made a bad decision?

OR the other groups interrupters are interrupting your groups interrupters, so the casters can cast, while the melees run...who would have thought, an 8vs8 boils down to more than just "if X happens then Y did something wrong". It's almost like it's a PvP game and not a PvE-Encounter that everyone beats with a certain strategy.

Lollie made a killer argument, and i replied with a similar one. Assuming that 1or2 people can reliably interuppt 3others for the whole fight or "they did something wrong" doesn't make sense as an argument imo, and running away when a tank runs to you is infinitely easier and requires no coordination.
Tue 9 Jun 2020 7:39 AM by Razur Ur
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Jun 2020 12:31 PM
At least a caster has a chance to kill me while MOCing when I close on him, while i have 0 chance to kill him from a distance. How about all the extra utility casters have for their groups in addition to doing all that damage? What the f' does a light tank have besides single target damage ability? Answer, not much. As far as damage/HP between casters and light tanks goes, on average a caster will nuke me in less hits than it will take me to kill them and on top of that he has a chance to finish me off when I close in on him by using MoC. Casters hit me for 400s-500s a pop on average (fully buffed and templated), I don't know where the 200 figure comes from. Here's another perspective, its much easier to keep a caster alive while 3 light tanks are on him since a caster can kite/strafe to ruin some of the styled/positional melee damage, its impossible to keep a light tank alive while 3 casters assist on him.

Do you begin to the see picture yet or should we keep going? Fact of the matter is melees are nerfed on this server period but I would argue that this impacts light tanks the most since they have no other group utility but to put dps down on support. So I argue and ask the Phoenix team to take notice and do something about the current state by either adding back Charge RA or upping some of the base damage to counter this imbalance.

That's why Banelord was introduced for hybrid and offtanks and just 2h tanks, do too little damage on the server. In comparison my rr12 champion on live server makes 400 to 450 dmg and here he makes just 300 to 350 dmg on the caster and with stats debuff an offtank makes even less dmg on the caster. The only two 2h offtanks where the melee dmg is normal are Valewalker and Savage.

Offtanks need either more rupt possibilities on the server or increased dmg against caster.
Tue 9 Jun 2020 11:38 AM by Ele
Contrary to several statements in this thread, I have to say that I think light tanks are in a good position. I derive that from what I see on /gvg list during EU prime time 2-3 times a week. And, believe it or not, most groups you see on /gvg list include light tanks. Most hib groups are running tank setups, and especially since the re-discovery of the AF-Debuff train, Mercs make an appearance in alb groups, while mid always had a spot for its light tanks. Speaking from this perspective, light tanks seem to be fine, at least for me.

Regarding the use of light tanks against casters, I'll give a short example of what happened to our mid tanker, running a svg and a zerker, a few days ago.
Roaming near Nuala's ruins, we spot a hib group on clipping range near the river, lots of luris and two enchanter pets. We move closer to check if they have seen us, they turn on us, split up and wait for us to charge in. We don't engage, move back a little, between the graveyard and the maze. For roughly half a minute its a stand-off, exchanging amnesias, but neither our 4 melees nor the 4 hib casters move. Finally the hibs move forward a little, one chanter peeks around the corner of the maze, and we rush in, kill the chanter, and about 2 minutes later, the hibs are dead.
Later that evening we encounter them again, almost the same location, but this time we move onto them directly. Turns out to be a dumb move, because the bard outplays our backline, while our tanks move into 4 casters that know how to kite, and get blown away one by one, in a quick and painful series of nukes.

What do I make of that? The first fight points into the direction of melee groups being strong vs. caster groups, the second is contradicting that. In addition to this contradiction, it shows the value of terrain, and that overconfidence leads to bad decisions, like engaging a split up caster group out in the open.
More dps/more rupts, like it has been suggested a few times already in this thread, might have resulted in us killing the caster group more easily in the first fight and even winning the second fight, but tbh, if a caster group can't win a fight in the open against a melee group that engages from clipping range without proper positioning and rupting, what is the purpose of casters? Coordinate, look at the terrain, and if the odds are unfavourable, don't engage directly or dodge. Tipping the balance towards more melee dps/rupts would, in my opinion, just cause more problems than it solves.
Tue 9 Jun 2020 12:23 PM by Cadebrennus
Ele wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Jun 2020 11:38 AM
Contrary to several statements in this thread, I have to say that I think light tanks are in a good position. I derive that from what I see on /gvg list during EU prime time 2-3 times a week. And, believe it or not, most groups you see on /gvg list include light tanks. Most hib groups are running tank setups, and especially since the re-discovery of the AF-Debuff train, Mercs make an appearance in alb groups, while mid always had a spot for its light tanks. Speaking from this perspective, light tanks seem to be fine, at least for me.

Regarding the use of light tanks against casters, I'll give a short example of what happened to our mid tanker, running a svg and a zerker, a few days ago.
Roaming near Nuala's ruins, we spot a hib group on clipping range near the river, lots of luris and two enchanter pets. We move closer to check if they have seen us, they turn on us, split up and wait for us to charge in. We don't engage, move back a little, between the graveyard and the maze. For roughly half a minute its a stand-off, exchanging amnesias, but neither our 4 melees nor the 4 hib casters move. Finally the hibs move forward a little, one chanter peeks around the corner of the maze, and we rush in, kill the chanter, and about 2 minutes later, the hibs are dead.
Later that evening we encounter them again, almost the same location, but this time we move onto them directly. Turns out to be a dumb move, because the bard outplays our backline, while our tanks move into 4 casters that know how to kite, and get blown away one by one, in a quick and painful series of nukes.

What do I make of that? The first fight points into the direction of melee groups being strong vs. caster groups, the second is contradicting that. In addition to this contradiction, it shows the value of terrain, and that overconfidence leads to bad decisions, like engaging a split up caster group out in the open.
More dps/more rupts, like it has been suggested a few times already in this thread, might have resulted in us killing the caster group more easily in the first fight and even winning the second fight, but tbh, if a caster group can't win a fight in the open against a melee group that engages from clipping range without proper positioning and rupting, what is the purpose of casters? Coordinate, look at the terrain, and if the odds are unfavourable, don't engage directly or dodge. Tipping the balance towards more melee dps/rupts would, in my opinion, just cause more problems than it solves.

YOU CAN'T USE LOGIC AND TERRAIN HERE, THIS IS DAOC!!11!!1111!!!!!

Just kidding. Excellent example here. I've been saying this for years, and I'm glad to see someone else doing the same.
Wed 10 Jun 2020 7:11 AM by Sepplord
Ele wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Jun 2020 11:38 AM
[...]

Good examples and i agree in general with the assessment at the end. Another thing you could take away from those stories though, is that regardless of castergroup or meleegroup, the group that stays defensive has an advantage over the group that tries to force the engagement

which discourages fights and leads to what i have heard as complaint against lots of good groups: "you always run away and only fight when the engagement is heavily in your favor" which in consequence leads to less fights happening
Fri 12 Jun 2020 12:45 PM by andreynk257
Once again I will reiterate that casters have superior damage, superior damage delivery mechanics and a TON of additional group utility in form of speed, pets/interrupts, damage adds/debuffs, and CC/snares (did i miss anything?). Light tanks are nothing more than peel/interrupt class in this caster meta server, they only do real damage once the enemy healers are locked down while casters can still burst people down through heals. I'm talking about group vs group mechanics where this really becomes an issue. I think it's ridiculous that a RR5+ savage or berserker can take over 6 hits to kill a caster with PD after gaining position on him/her, that's a an eternity and it gives casters so much more room for error while melees get nuked to hell either pushing or trying to retreat from casters.

Three casters that are spread out well can assist nuke and cause so much more DPS than a 3 melee tank train that needs to run to each target while getting snared/kited (which takes valuable time), in this game the burst capability is the difference maker and casters just have that on another level. Additionally I can only take 1 enemy melee tank to peel a 3 melee train while you cannot interrupt 3 casters with one melee. So without Charge RA to counterbalance some of the melee's inherent inferior damage delivery mechanics I just do not see a level playing field here.
Fri 12 Jun 2020 3:27 PM by Lollie
It's the debuff that i think causes the problem, they should have looked at it instead of the hp boost imo. There are RA's out there like soldiers barricade and Beddazling Aura to help but i've never seen anyone actually use it when i've been in any group to be honest.
Fri 12 Jun 2020 5:23 PM by Cadebrennus
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Jun 2020 12:45 PM
Once again I will reiterate that casters have superior damage, superior damage delivery mechanics and a TON of additional group utility in form of speed, pets/interrupts, damage adds/debuffs, and CC/snares (did i miss anything?). Light tanks are nothing more than peel/interrupt class in this caster meta server, they only do real damage once the enemy healers are locked down while casters can still burst people down through heals. I'm talking about group vs group mechanics where this really becomes an issue. I think it's ridiculous that a RR5+ savage or berserker can take over 6 hits to kill a caster with PD after gaining position on him/her, that's a an eternity and it gives casters so much more room for error while melees get nuked to hell either pushing or trying to retreat from casters.

Three casters that are spread out well can assist nuke and cause so much more DPS than a 3 melee tank train that needs to run to each target while getting snared/kited (which takes valuable time), in this game the burst capability is the difference maker and casters just have that on another level. Additionally I can only take 1 enemy melee tank to peel a 3 melee train while you cannot interrupt 3 casters with one melee. So without Charge RA to counterbalance some of the melee's inherent inferior damage delivery mechanics I just do not see a level playing field here.

Removing PD altogether would solve a number of problems on this server, and it's such a simple fix too.
Sat 13 Jun 2020 11:20 AM by hyshash
Lollie wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Jun 2020 3:27 PM
It's the debuff that i think causes the problem, they should have looked at it instead of the hp boost imo. There are RA's out there like soldiers barricade and Beddazling Aura to help but i've never seen anyone actually use it when i've been in any group to be honest.

If a grp that isnt even able to use the most basic ra's to overcome assist nukes is the base to discuss ANY issue in daoc ... then the whole discussion isnt worth a penny.

There are 2 caster setups (hib caster with an ani, alb 5 body nuker) that arent totaly gimp and barely any grp roams with these anymore while the meta shifted to hib being 4-5 natures+tanks and alb even sometimes being smth like 2mins nec 2cler 3 tanks (not a single caster not even a sorc ...) mid playing full tanker or the usual hybrid setup and you guys keep complaining about how 3 freely nuking debuff casters destroy a tank ... most 8vs8 grps dont run melee grps because they think melee is so much fun but because these setups are currently way easier and more efficient even at highlvl gameplay then caster grps, as a melee grps small mistakes wont get punished that hard while a small mistake on a caster in a caster grp could allready cost that fight.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:52 PM by andreynk257
"most 8vs8 grps dont run melee grps because they think melee is so much fun but because these setups are currently way easier and more efficient even at highlvl gameplay then caster grps, as a melee grps small mistakes wont get punished that hard while a small mistake on a caster in a caster grp could allready cost that fight."

That is just down right not true, there are mostly caster pull groups running around with a single tank for peels usually. Again on your point of caster's getting punished more than tanks for making mistakes, that is just completely untrue. A single caster who's out of position can survive 3 melee light tank train while getting healed, a tank will NOT survive 3 caster's nuking him while getting healed. With PD and MoC you can literally have a caster aoe a tank to death faster than the tank can kill him, its ridiculous.
Wed 17 Jun 2020 9:58 PM by hyshash
andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jun 2020 2:52 PM
"most 8vs8 grps dont run melee grps because they think melee is so much fun but because these setups are currently way easier and more efficient even at highlvl gameplay then caster grps, as a melee grps small mistakes wont get punished that hard while a small mistake on a caster in a caster grp could allready cost that fight."

That is just down right not true, there are mostly caster pull groups running around with a single tank for peels usually. Again on your point of caster's getting punished more than tanks for making mistakes, that is just completely untrue. A single caster who's out of position can survive 3 melee light tank train while getting healed, a tank will NOT survive 3 caster's nuking him while getting healed. With PD and MoC you can literally have a caster aoe a tank to death faster than the tank can kill him, its ridiculous.

Well please tell me the grps currently regularly roaming wich are caster setups. Most of the evenings there are like 1 maybe 2 alb caster grps and at most 1 hib caster grp while mid is allways hybrid or full melee, hib is mostly 4-5 nature+tanks and even albs are shifting to melee setups with a debuffing nec...
and IF you want to compare a debuff train at its full power you have to compare it to smth like merc+arms+nec on the same target or zerker+svg+warri on the same target ... sure these melees wont do as much dmg as the 3 caster but the dmg wont be 0 as soon as some1 tikles em with a staff.
Also 3 caster nuking a target IS healable maybe not for a prolonged time frame but if there are 3 caster nuking a target longer then like maybe 2 or at max 3 casts each and this happens in every fight against em multiple times not only do they deserve to win the fights but your grp prolly shouldnt play 8vs8 to often since you lack skill rly not much more to say.
Also for the mocing phase ... you got amnesia, sos, sb, boad, sometimes even em ... if thats not enough to counter the moc phase -> well you read what i wrote before.

srsly i successfully played cab in a caster setup (not 5 body but 3) before against the better grps on this server and im currently playing in a melee setup also against the better grps on this server and the caster setup is just 10 times more stressfull and you got way less room for mistakes on most classes ... the melee setup works just better
i kinda hate to write this cause i like caster setups way more but they arent rly worth the efford of optimizing the setup to the max, not having room for some fun classes ppl want to play, every fight being over if 1 or 2 mistakes happen, our just flat out getting murdered because you didnt had a good start terrainwise.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 12:28 PM by andreynk257
Phoenix team,

I've laid out some valid points in the previous posts regarding light tanks vs caster meta balance on this server, please take note and try to balance things out if you care to do right by those at a disadvantage. For anyone else reading if you don't agree that's fine since its probably in your interest to keep the status quo regardless of which realm you're on.

As for who runs what setups, clearly we must be playing on two different servers here. Every night my guild runs evening NA times, if we don't happen to come across a zerg of 2fgs+ then 8 out 10 times its a group with minimum of 3 casters/1 tank for peels on hib or alb and all they do is play the pull game. Often times even 3 Light Tanks are not enough to drop a caster unless all their healers can be locked down which almost never happens since albs and hibs can easily run 3 healer types due to their inherent better group compositions without sacrificing that one dps group spot. I'll lay out the points from the previous posts to sort of summarize the discussion here.

Caster Meta Group Imbalance:

- Inherent Superior Damage Delivery Mechanic: click on any one target within 1500-1875 range to nuke/bolt, can assist nuke a single target down in a fraction of the time it takes for melee assist train to get to on foot while fighting through snares, cc, kiting, melee slams. At the competitive 8v8 level its all about control and killing single target during small windows of opportunity when the enemy healers are locked down, this is so much easier for caster groups to exploit because Light Tanks do NOT have the old Charge RA on this server to counterbalance all the different types of CC and snare effects, Det9 + Stoicism does not compensate for that.

- Casters DO NOT decrease their nuke damage when lowering their cast speed while Light Tanks DO lower part of their damage (style bonus) as they decrease their swing speed through higher quickness and any type of haste.

- Casters have a ton of group utility such a damage adds, debuffs, blade turn and powerful RAs that can easily swing group and zerg battles such as Maelstrom and TWF . Light Tanks don't have anything remotely useful. This is a big FU for light tanks in general.

- The general AF and HP increase buff along with Nerf to Critical Damage has definitely favored Casters because now 3 light tanks can easily be out healed when trying to take down a Caster (without him even being healed). You have casters now with PD and MOC that can just sit there and pbaoe a Light Tank down quicker than he can kill them, how the **** is that balanced?

This is the last post I will make on this topic, I'm seriously just fed up with the imbalance on this server and the bs comes from the caster players claiming that everything is honky dory.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:05 PM by Ele
andreynk257 wrote: [...]
This is the last post I will make on this topic, I'm seriously just fed up with the imbalance on this server and the bs comes from the caster players claiming that everything is honky dory.

Well, in some kind there seem to be two different servers, because, just as Hyshash has laid out, EU /gvg groups are mainly running tank groups.
There has been a lot of input from different points of view, but claiming that only caster players behave as if everything was alright, is just not true. Neither Hyshash, Me, Cade or others that have stated that tank groups are in a good position are caster only players.
We don't agree on the general performance of tank groups (good/bad), which is ok, and if NA is running caster heavy only, ok, adapt and learn to counter them, it is certainly not impossible. But this
andreynk257 wrote: bs comes from the caster players claiming that everything is honky dory
is just not true.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:49 PM by hyshash
It quite obv that na is on a whole different meta then eu ... eu had a "hib/alb being full caster or caster+1def tank and mid running hybrid or full melee" meta from the beginning of this server up till like march of this year but that changed with the hp buff and the recent crit nervs while also buffing the melee range and i would argue that allowing ahk is also a melee buff (srsly im able to peel ppl on my arms from like every angle its absurd to be able to sidesnare ppl from the front and not even having the chance to fail any style due to ahk isnta queing the anytimer)
and argueing that the hp buffs+crit changes are in favor of caster is just wrong ... caster setups rely way more upon these small timed windows to freely nuke with 2-3 ppl wich just get shut down into 0 dmg by getting rupted while melees can keep attacking building pressure as long as they dont get cced (wich would obv result into 0 dmg from a caster too) ... melee setups build pressure by attacking different targets and having 1 or to 2 melees switch between these targets to assist while the enemy supps have to decide wich target they heal .. to say that melee setups 100% do spike dmg upon a single target is just wrong or you guys kinda play wrong if you perma assist against a caster grp wich would also explain why you got so much trouble with 3 perma nuking caster

and i still wanna see the caster whos able to solo moc kill a tank from 100% to 0% in a reliable manner in a 8vs8... i got moc5 on my rr8 cab and solo nuking a tank with that was a mana sink nothing more
Thu 18 Jun 2020 2:03 PM by Eidorf
Lollie wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Jun 2020 3:27 PM
It's the debuff that i think causes the problem, they should have looked at it instead of the hp boost imo. There are RA's out there like soldiers barricade and Beddazling Aura to help but i've never seen anyone actually use it when i've been in any group to be honest.

Finally, someone gets it. Casters do not have OP damage without debuffs taking the target into positive resists. Fix this BS and you will see more group diversity and make for a better experience overall.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 3:44 PM by Ele
Eidorf wrote:
Lollie wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Jun 2020 3:27 PM
It's the debuff that i think causes the problem, they should have looked at it instead of the hp boost imo. There are RA's out there like soldiers barricade and Beddazling Aura to help but i've never seen anyone actually use it when i've been in any group to be honest.

Finally, someone gets it. Casters do not have OP damage without debuffs taking the target into positive resists. Fix this BS and you will see more group diversity and make for a better experience overall.

Running a debuff train is rewarding, but is really brittle. Once you are upon casters, they are not going to deal any damage. Even before the HP buff it was possible to close in on casters as melees and prevent them from utilizing their burst dmg abilities. With the HP buff, tanks have more time to close in and healers have a longer window of opportunity to keep the melees alive while pushing in. Nerfing debuffs would turn the few caster groups you see on /gvg list, at least on EU, away. Casters are not as OP as you might think. Prevent them from kiting erly, chose terrain and once you engage ensure that the debuffer is locked down. Pushing in as a tank group effectively requires coordination, but not as much as a kiting bunch of glass cannons need to stay alive and kill.
Thu 18 Jun 2020 5:15 PM by opossum12
It's hard to take complaints seriously when you read posts saying that people don't even use BAOD against casters....

Wonder why a VW is a requirement in a hib tanker?
Wonder why a BD is such a great fit in a mid tanker?
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:48 PM by Cadebrennus
If PD is removed it will restore balance.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:14 AM by Killaloth
Tank groups got already the biggest buff when the HP buff was increased.

If you still die vs a full caster group it's because they outplayed you.

Every time you reached 10% life from a caster assist in the last few months you should have been a dead target, thank the devs for this big present.

Stop asking for weird changes, there will never been a patch that transform a bad player in a good payer I'm afraid!

You say: in Hib no rvr class buffs ABS and damage add QQQQQQ - I am with you, that's a fair request but don't stretch stuff too far that what already is.

Light tanks are super fine as they are.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:59 PM by jhaerik
Killaloth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:14 AM
Tank groups got already the biggest buff when the HP buff was increased.

If you still die vs a full caster group it's because they outplayed you.

Every time you reached 10% life from a caster assist in the last few months you should have been a dead target, thank the devs for this big present.

Stop asking for weird changes, there will never been a patch that transform a bad player in a good payer I'm afraid!

You say: in Hib no rvr class buffs ABS and damage add QQQQQQ - I am with you, that's a fair request but don't stretch stuff too far that what already is.

Light tanks are super fine as they are.

I mean all it actually takes to "outplay" a tank group is one guy who knows where his aoe disease button is...
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:10 PM by Cadebrennus
Tank groups need a full time dedicated interrupter to be effective IMO, then they can do well vs. Casters. It's no different than a Caster group needing a good debuffer.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:22 PM by Ele
jhaerik wrote: I mean all it actually takes to "outplay" a tank group is one guy who knows where his aoe disease button is...

Well, if that happens, better yell at your tanks for assisting on a target vs. a caster group or not spreading on inc, because otherwise they shouldn't be caught in it all at once, and tell your interrupter who does not prevent the eld/caby from casting it to do so (can't really prevent shamys fart, but mid usually runs tank heavy anyway, and if he uses it vs. tanks, he makes himself a nice target...), and, while we are at it, tell your supps to cure disease immediately on the tank who caught it.
Any group that gets caught in a form of aoe either has a really bad inc or f*cked it up, tbh.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:46 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Ele wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:22 PM
Any group that gets caught in a form of aoe either has a really bad inc or f*cked it up, tbh.


This is either incredibly ignorant, or willfully stupid.

I'll let you choose.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 3:39 PM by hyshash
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:46 PM
Ele wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:22 PM
Any group that gets caught in a form of aoe either has a really bad inc or f*cked it up, tbh.


This is either incredibly ignorant, or willfully stupid.

I'll let you choose.
No actually thats 100% true

all these threads are filled with ppl eigther not knowing base mechanics (like the guys saying det would only reduce the timer of mezz) or ppl who dont play their class/grp setup up to a degree where they could actually give a usefull critic regarding these topics (like the guy saying his grp wont ever use baod against a caster grp)

If you dont know or understand the currently given mechanics and because of that dont use em or whats even worse you know them but your to bad to use em correctly how do you want to give a feedback thats of any use?
And if youre talking about situations you allways have to judge from the maximum you could make out of a situation from both sides perspective if you dont set that as the base for your discussion (like the example given in the quote ... a tank grp should NEVER get ae deseased on more then maybe 2 tanks at once NEVER) theres no point to discuss because where do you set the base? Ppl not purgeing mezz? ppl not styling? you could dumb it down to ppl not desticking and suddenly ae and bombing the enemy grp works
And if you dont discuss this from the point of view of 2 perfectly played grps but want to overcome ppl being bad by implementing mechanics that nullify the lack of skill the player that actually have skill will abuse the new mechanics resulting in op classes/setups
Fri 19 Jun 2020 3:47 PM by ExcretusMaximus
hyshash wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 3:39 PM
No actually thats 100% true


No, it isn't.

If you get clump mezzed on inc, sure, you fucked up. If you get clump diseased because you're assisting on a target, like you're supposed to (which is what he was originally replying to and about), you didn't "fuck up." Especially considering the source of disease on Huibernia and Albion are quick cast classes who can disease even when interrupted if necessary.

But hey, let's pretend tanks never assist because they can kill casters by themselves because PD doesn't exist, that way our vacuum argument of "anyone who gets caught in an AoE, ever, sucks" seems valid!
Fri 19 Jun 2020 3:59 PM by hyshash
how often are you assisting with 3 tanks against a caster grp and not get punished by the enemy debuff assist train killing your whole grp? You have to be in a realy good situation to be able to assist with that many melees (like all enemy dps caster being cced/rupted for more then 5-10 secs) and if thats true you wont get deseased
Fri 19 Jun 2020 6:21 PM by Ele
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:46 PM
Ele wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:22 PM
Any group that gets caught in a form of aoe either has a really bad inc or f*cked it up, tbh.


This is either incredibly ignorant, or willfully stupid.

I'll let you choose.

I'll give you a third interpretation, because I'm neither stupid nor ignoring anything:
people make mistakes, because they don't understand mechanics or tactics, and are unwilling to acknowledge it or to improve.

I really don't know what to say. The first thing I got yelled at years ago (in Ventrilo, anybody remember? xD) when I first ran in an 8man group on my cleric and got caught in a pac's instant aoe mezz was to destick on inc so I won't catch an aoe, be it root, mezz, disease or something else, again. This is rule number one of any engagement, spread out, doesn't depend on setup or anything else, you engage, you spread. Period. If we can't agree that the only circumstances that can lead to a group being caught in an aoe is either a bad inc and therefor not their mistake, no need to talk about that, or because they made the mistake of not spreading out, I don't know what else I can say. I try to be as positive as possible, explaining mechanics, tactics, drawing from my experiences as main CC on all three realms on this server.

Calling me out for being stupid or ignorant is just rude.
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