New stealther detection nerf

Started 9 May 2020
by erichugonnett
in Suggestions
lets discuss the new nerf and whats on every stealthers mind right now. I personally dont agree with the changes totally targeting stealthers and forcing them to solo basically. Not to mention stealth zergs are easy to find with stealth lore pots already. So if your in a group your getting farmed and this is as intended? Also bam the update comes out with almost no warning and expects you to test it yourself with no actual info. I mean that alone shows how dedicated they are to putting stealthers so far into the ground theyre just candy for 8mans.
Sat 9 May 2020 5:34 PM by Pigleto
Why not just make the cap to 4 stealth in a group. Some of us like to duo, trio and 4 man. I don't see why these play styles need to be nerfed.
Sat 9 May 2020 5:36 PM by dbeattie71
Good change imo. Zerglers won’t like it.
Sat 9 May 2020 5:37 PM by Quik
dbeattie71 wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 5:36 PM
Good change imo. Zerglers won’t like it.

I completely agree!!
Sat 9 May 2020 5:40 PM by erichugonnett
Quik wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 5:37 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 5:36 PM
Good change imo. Zerglers won’t like it.

I completely agree!!

what about the stealthers that actually small man and hit others small mans we are totally vulnerable
Sat 9 May 2020 5:40 PM by Noashakra
I was asking on the region CC how long before zergers cry on the forums (ok it's a "discussion", I have the answer .
Sat 9 May 2020 5:41 PM by dbeattie71
erichugonnett wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 5:40 PM
Quik wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 5:37 PM
dbeattie71 wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 5:36 PM
Good change imo. Zerglers won’t like it.

I completely agree!!

what about the stealthers that actually small man and hit others small mans we are totally vulnerable

My guess is you’re not standing around on a dock so you’re fine imo.
Sat 9 May 2020 5:47 PM by Siouxsie
Yeah I don't like this either. It makes the stealth heavy alb groups detectable, but then if you're in a duo, they will see you and crush you.
Wrong way to go about it.

I choose to play a stealther so I can pick and choose my fights. Just because there's other friendly stealthers around doesn't mean I am grouped with them.
This will ruin gameplay.

Please reverse this decision. It was not clearly thought out properly.
Sat 9 May 2020 5:59 PM by gromet12
I don't see it stating if the sneaks are grouped or not, so if you're solo and a sneak group is near you, you all see each sooner and they kill you even easier? How is that logical?
Sat 9 May 2020 6:03 PM by monkeygodbob
It isn't logical, it is a complete nerf to any solo stealthers out there. How am I supposed to know if I am indeed surrounded by comrades who are grouped?
Sat 9 May 2020 6:06 PM by Jiraishin
erichugonnett wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 5:31 PM
lets discuss the new nerf and whats on every stealthers mind right now. I personally dont agree with the changes totally targeting stealthers and forcing them to solo basically. Not to mention stealth zergs are easy to find with stealth lore pots already. So if your in a group your getting farmed and this is as intended? Also bam the update comes out with almost no warning and expects you to test it yourself with no actual info. I mean that alone shows how dedicated they are to putting stealthers so far into the ground theyre just candy for 8mans.

They killed a lot of "solo" places. I am used like other people (skalds, stealther) to play around in front of hib relic town. The range I tested it with groundtarget varies between 1800-2300 units of range. If you dont recognize a friendly stealther behind you (1800 units for example) and you try to PA another guy in front of you running he will see you as well for that range. Same counts toward backstab for example. As far as I understood it from the patchnotes when an friendly guy can see you for for like 1800 range the opponent can do that as well. Correct me if I am wrong. But if that is the case there is no sense left to go on playing with the SB. I suggested it in the thread that I opened and I will do it here:
Just roll back to the old patch before the stealth-detection change.
Sat 9 May 2020 6:12 PM by Mavella
I don't think stealthers should be penalized for the actions and movements of visible players. I've seen some screenshots that make it appear being around ANY friendly will add this stealth penalty. Stealthers, solo or otherwise, cannot affect the movements and play of visibles. This penalty should entirely be based on how many friendly stealthers are in your vicinity grouped or otherwise. From my experiences especially with NF there are a limited number of areas for stealthers to even hunt and they are often patrolled by small mans/fgs of visibles as well. Getting intermittent stealth penalties because a group ran over or near me would be extremely annoying, especially if I was hunting someone and it gave away my position.

This change punishes every stealther not just stealth zergs which are the big problem imo.
Sat 9 May 2020 6:18 PM by gotwqqd
erichugonnett wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 5:31 PM
lets discuss the new nerf and whats on every stealthers mind right now. I personally dont agree with the changes totally targeting stealthers and forcing them to solo basically. Not to mention stealth zergs are easy to find with stealth lore pots already. So if your in a group your getting farmed and this is as intended? Also bam the update comes out with almost no warning and expects you to test it yourself with no actual info. I mean that alone shows how dedicated they are to putting stealthers so far into the ground theyre just candy for 8mans.
They should divulge the algorithm
Sat 9 May 2020 6:18 PM by Saroi
I never had an issue with Stealthzerg. I remember the days in OF when Albs had 10-14 people outside of mpk in Emain and Hibs had also atleast a fg camping infront of Fensalir. The "Stealthzerg" that are going on atm are nothing compared to that. Simply go somewhere else, I only run once into the group of Rampage and that was EV docks with Dock task and I knew they were there.

ANY friendly player near me will make enemies detect me further away? This is not even a nerf to stealth zergs. If they get caught they can still defend themselves, especially Albs with minstrel or just SOS away. This is a nerf to solo people. If I decide to go to Beno bridge and have no idea other stealthers are there or some other mids I will be detected from further away and if I get caught by a few and I dead.
Sat 9 May 2020 6:20 PM by Adwaenyth
gromet12 wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 5:59 PM
I don't see it stating if the sneaks are grouped or not, so if you're solo and a sneak group is near you, you all see each sooner and they kill you even easier? How is that logical?

Nope. FRIENDLY players affect your stealth. Enemy players do not.
Sat 9 May 2020 6:22 PM by gotwqqd
Pigleto wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 5:34 PM
Why not just make the cap to 4 stealth in a group. Some of us like to duo, trio and 4 man. I don't see why these play styles need to be nerfed.

You don’t see?
How about a soloer MAYBE having a chance to avoid the mob?

Sorry
I thought it was only stealth concentration
Not any friendly nearby
Sat 9 May 2020 6:26 PM by Validric
Stealth in Phoenix will become something of the past. I am exclusively soloing and it will make everything even harder for all stealth now. No discussion in advance, just the change. This might be it for my SB then. I wonder how many of the GM's play stealth, because there is no logical thinking that went into this.
Sat 9 May 2020 6:49 PM by Siouxsie
Validric wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 6:26 PM
Stealth in Phoenix will become something of the past. I am exclusively soloing and it will make everything even harder for all stealth now. No discussion in advance, just the change. This might be it for my SB then. I wonder how many of the GM's play stealth, because there is no logical thinking that went into this.

During beta they disabled stealth if a certain % of a realm's players were stealthers.
This pissed a lot of people off.

So yeah, no logical thinking to any of it back in beta, and no logical thinking of this change now.
Sat 9 May 2020 7:07 PM by Kadal
hi,

im relativly new and a solo assassin who occasionally runs with the zerg when im getting tired of getting ran over (not complaining, its part of the game)

I feel like this change completely misses its mark.

Grouped stealthers now just can keep some distance and do the same thing as before? some1 pops a solo stealthie or whatever and every1 adds on him, especially easy for all those bow stealthies around now.
dont get me wrong getting zerged by a grp of stealthies is annoying as fuck, but not more annoying than getting ran over by any other grp, so i dont really get why u would wanna do something about it to begin with.
Again i have never been part of a stealth grp/zerg as of now.

On the other hand if u are solo and dont wanna fuck over other solos in the same area best way to do so seems to invite them in a grp so u know where they are so u can avoid them? obviously not gonna happen cuz of rps and stuff but thats actually the way it is
/edit: not even talking about the random ppl who can fuck u over by just running by randomly or the griefing possibilities

Wanna climb keeps as an assassin and try to kill people? well better hope u are the only one climbing up, cuz else u can just stay down, and that was the only fun part in partaking in the zerg as an assassin.
From what i heard if u run with the zerg there is no reason to stealth anymore at all.

I feel like the stealthies affected least by this are the stealth grps if they are not fucking stupid, so to put it nicely this change doesnt seem to be well thought through at all and i really hope u reconsider this.

Please let me know if i got something wrong
Sat 9 May 2020 7:18 PM by nkeplinger1
The devs really don't like stealth classes. It's ok to zerg solos and small mans into the ground with any other class in the game, but don't you dare group as a stealth class. Let people play daoc as it was designed and stop trying to develop an 8 man utopia.
Sat 9 May 2020 7:35 PM by Saroi
Siouxsie wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 6:49 PM
Validric wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 6:26 PM
Stealth in Phoenix will become something of the past. I am exclusively soloing and it will make everything even harder for all stealth now. No discussion in advance, just the change. This might be it for my SB then. I wonder how many of the GM's play stealth, because there is no logical thinking that went into this.

During beta they disabled stealth if a certain % of a realm's players were stealthers.
This pissed a lot of people off.

So yeah, no logical thinking to any of it back in beta, and no logical thinking of this change now.

There was a logic behind it. The Instant50 Command with free SC gear. Beta was for testing and not make a lot of stealthers to play and that actually happened the first week. There were way too many stealthers, sometimes like 30-40% stealthers of total realm in RvR.
Sat 9 May 2020 9:03 PM by Kimahri
Make it friendly stealthers, any friendly player is too much
Sat 9 May 2020 10:31 PM by Validric
So gone are the days where stealth could help during a keep siege or tower take. How will you ever get close without being detected?
Or is stealth exclusively for open ground warfare, on your own, away from any realm member?

Going to low traffic Zones with the hope that no other stealther from your realm had the same idea with regards to the location.
Sat 9 May 2020 10:39 PM by Khogor
Sorry but not sorry , this is another totally useless nerf.


Do I get 800% Dam and Def boost in return against 8 man grps searching , costguarding and killing solos and smallmen !?

Whichever trainee is responsible for this nonsens please kick him ore her right away THX
Sun 10 May 2020 12:11 AM by Norhir
Jiraishin wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 6:06 PM
Just roll back to the old patch before the stealth-detection change.

Absolutely. This change breaks the stealth mechanic, which is THE foundation to all stealth classes.

I get the good intentions of the devs, but this is not the way.

Please roll back on that change.
Sun 10 May 2020 12:35 AM by Alghanite_EU
Hi there it is not the best way to express myself or make a proper statement / built text to give you my feelings about those nerfs after 1 day of freeing the damage all archers should have to make since the beginning but i will post what i wrote on Discord which was off topic in game Advice andi'm sorry of it but i'm just so frustrated.

Sorry in advance if i'm too long to read.

I have just watch the server news and i just learned that we have less than what @GameMaster have given to stealther community which means a proper character to play with ?

This is a shame, a big one.

Since 2004 the archer on every realm has been nerfed with damages on archery because poor little mags has been bullied ?

So since 2004 i have been oriented battlefield ranger with high blades and high celtic dual because Archery was worthless. It is like a sorcerer without his mezz or Ministrel without his charm... it is non sense. I thought for once you guys were smart to re-establish a sense to what stealther/archer means but about one day .... we were cut purely and simply.

Beside we were not implemented a full respec to have a choice here.

Sorry for my words and this is because i'm verry angry but this is bullshit. You nerf again stealther and even worse you nerf stealth itself because the reason stealther are in group is because archers cannot simply do some simple fight without getting killed if he is alone against any other class, rapid fire was a good thing but still a QC and we are almost out. What i found a non sense for exemple is a ministrel with stealth in heavy armor...

You were giving a sense to what a real archer was at the start.... now it is just almost garbage ready for delete but i'm just gonna do as usual hoping for not being disgusted of the game and when i'm frustrated i'm gonna play other characters.

Those nerfs have killed the stealther community.

When will nerf be usefull and smart ?

Ministrel never should have been able to have red pet or stealth ability in the first place but still there so why we archers from all realms shouldn't be able to play our class fully...

I'm at the point to play my ranger with no stealth at all and be a underclass of blademaster .... with hit point in less.... it is like a pbae without a pbae.... i will never understand that logic.

It is even more frustrating for scouts or Hunters which does not have the capability to do full battlefield class as the scout doesn't have buffs or second hand, and hunters which have only pet blue or spear to defend thelselves without archery.

During this one day of full capability i was seeing a large community of those class back but now we are just volley bot for structures .... Or rp on feet for every class regarding the distance we can now be seen.

I would recommend a roll back for at least go back to previous situation and think about more wisely a definitive up of archery, ask passionates, play it, level it i don't know but understand those classes before doing an up of it. Also i would recommend a respec all granted to let the chance for players to roll back to their previous template if they want to.

Good intentions have been appreciated in the first place, really, but those nerfs are simply a killing of stealth enjoyement and i'm talking under my feelings so sorry again for my speak of mind. I'm glad to have Phoenix but i'm also a passionate of my Ranger since i played it in 2003 on official French Server.

Alghanite
Sun 10 May 2020 1:45 AM by Ashenspire
No one should ever be penalized for being in a group in an MMO.
Sun 10 May 2020 2:03 AM by Kimahri
Ashenspire wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 1:45 AM
No one should ever be penalized for being in a group in an MMO.

Unless said playstyle is toxic as fuck and kills the population, sry no sympathy here for stealth zergers
Sun 10 May 2020 2:10 AM by Ashenspire
Kimahri wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 2:03 AM
Ashenspire wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 1:45 AM
No one should ever be penalized for being in a group in an MMO.

Unless said playstyle is toxic as fuck and kills the population, sry no sympathy here for stealth zergers

No sympathy for people that think they should get special privilege because they choose to run around in the frontiers in fewer numbers and complain that they're at a disadvantage against those that choose not to.
Sun 10 May 2020 2:31 AM by Pzynom
This is a very bad idea. You start telling people how to play.

I don't have a stealther, But sometimes solo as a visi. Can we get a huge damage buff/defense, when alone and more than 4 enemies around? Protection against 8/groups.

Can a group get auto-stealth if more than 50 enemies around?

For every change you will find people who like it.
Personally I think you are going down a rabbit hole. Thanks, appreciate the server.
Sun 10 May 2020 2:59 AM by Fugax
I wrote a post regarding SL pots and them being OP with 31 pages of discussion and bitching, and you go ahead and do the opposite of what the majority of the discussion was about? are you blind? or do you just simply fucking hate ppl that stealth? Imo a Dev/Admin should be unbias, but it appears to me that they are bias to how they want the server to be ran. Sure some things are supported by the community, then again mostly everything else none... Then again I remember the team having an issue with the free shard team... then this happened... What you done makes no damn sense to me. You are totally killing a play style and making it into an all vis world... If that was the intention than make it so. I dont understand wtf you have done here... The EP 8 mans sinking yr DMS for more rps? da faq....
Sun 10 May 2020 4:40 AM by Dialh
This makes my melee scout worthless. PZ do away with this this stealth nerf. If u dont know already a group or 3 stealthers is called a zerg AND IT ISNT!
Sun 10 May 2020 6:03 AM by protege
Not the change we asked for.
Sun 10 May 2020 6:37 AM by Khogor
I as playing Scout myself have to ask, where are those stelath Zergs and how can I find them?

- Zerg Starts 3v1? So do we Nerf or ban som of the 4 highest rr Chars on the Server for smallman Play and Farming Solos all day?

-getting killed solo at the hotspots by Like 2+ full grps ist RVR but stealth grp is Not ?

-beeing solo unstealthed will geht you killed because everyone want rp ...no matter by what youd will get killed . Some of the most famous solos we're killed over and over again till They got the reputation and stayed unharmed ...for some time at least.

Get a grp yourself , get an 8 man and kill the stealth zerg or Just dont go to the hotspots Devs gave a new 1v1 Zone , Last man Standing....no one needs to start at bleed , DC, or beno all time.

And to the 3 Zergs running those so called stealth zergs wont do any harm.
Sun 10 May 2020 6:48 AM by SlowMo
Good intention, but sorry to say: poorly executed.

This change will hit solo sins in the same way.
How am I supposed to know if there is another stealth around? Sins are dependent on being invisible and have to rely on it.

This will probably kill the last bit of stealth solo action in the frontiers. After pvp Zone already killed 90% of it.
Sun 10 May 2020 6:55 AM by VonSchneider
Stop crying. the problem is not 2-3 stealthers playing together, its stealthers (and mostly they are albs tbh) camping hot-spots in almost fgs and with the archer changes it even got worse.
Just because they are unable to kill anything alone.
Its a shame and devs had to take care of it.
Archers execute at keep defenses, killing casters or even adding, but should get rekkt everytime they attack a tank or everything non-solo. Just accept it.
Sun 10 May 2020 7:45 AM by Ceen
Saw 1 minstrel 7 scout grp yesterday before the nerf. So yes I like this change.
Sun 10 May 2020 8:43 AM by Khogor
VonSchneider wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 6:55 AM
Stop crying. the problem is not 2-3 stealthers playing together, its stealthers (and mostly they are albs tbh) camping hot-spots in almost fgs and with the archer changes it even got worse.
Just because they are unable to kill anything alone.
Its a shame and devs had to take care of it.
Archers execute at keep defenses, killing casters or even adding, but should get rekkt everytime they attack a tank or everything non-solo. Just accept it.

This sums it Up perfectly ...but sadly in the wrong way and why People Always cry for Nerf.

So you damit? Archers cant kill anything solo ..in your context obviously because of them beeing bad Players
And nothing else. This is why They dint deserve a buff

And also you Tell a rather large grp of Players (because that is why WE Talk about this large Nummer of evil archers) has to be so Low in Dam They should get wrekked and only walking rp Spenders.

1 Mincer 7Scouts attacking a full grp and Killing IT ?
Unlikely ....

And I dont have any sympathy for a caster Standing infront of a keep Wall F8 nuking and then crying for Archer Nerf.

Sad to See everyone demands safety weels and Devs give Thema.
Sun 10 May 2020 9:33 AM by VonSchneider
Khogor wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 8:43 AM
VonSchneider wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 6:55 AM
Stop crying. the problem is not 2-3 stealthers playing together, its stealthers (and mostly they are albs tbh) camping hot-spots in almost fgs and with the archer changes it even got worse.
Just because they are unable to kill anything alone.
Its a shame and devs had to take care of it.
Archers execute at keep defenses, killing casters or even adding, but should get rekkt everytime they attack a tank or everything non-solo. Just accept it.

This sums it Up perfectly ...but sadly in the wrong way and why People Always cry for Nerf.

So you damit? Archers cant kill anything solo ..in your context obviously because of them beeing bad Players
And nothing else. This is why They dint deserve a buff

And also you Tell a rather large grp of Players (because that is why WE Talk about this large Nummer of evil archers) has to be so Low in Dam They should get wrekked and only walking rp Spenders.

1 Mincer 7Scouts attacking a full grp and Killing IT ?
Unlikely ....

And I dont have any sympathy for a caster Standing infront of a keep Wall F8 nuking and then crying for Archer Nerf.

Sad to See everyone demands safety weels and Devs give Thema.
Yes Im saying they are bad players, because they are cowards.
A well play scout should be able to stand his own with no-immunity perma-root or at least should be able to get away if they dont want to fight, but they dont even try to and thats why they deserve to be nerfed.
And Im talking specifically scouts, because there are enough rangers and hunters who DO solo.
Sun 10 May 2020 10:01 AM by Khogor
VonSchneider wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 9:33 AM
Khogor wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 8:43 AM
VonSchneider wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 6:55 AM
Stop crying. the problem is not 2-3 stealthers playing together, its stealthers (and mostly they are albs tbh) camping hot-spots in almost fgs and with the archer changes it even got worse.
Just because they are unable to kill anything alone.
Its a shame and devs had to take care of it.
Archers execute at keep defenses, killing casters or even adding, but should get rekkt everytime they attack a tank or everything non-solo. Just accept it.

This sums it Up perfectly ...but sadly in the wrong way and why People Always cry for Nerf.

So you damit? Archers cant kill anything solo ..in your context obviously because of them beeing bad Players
And nothing else. This is why They dint deserve a buff

And also you Tell a rather large grp of Players (because that is why WE Talk about this large Nummer of evil archers) has to be so Low in Dam They should get wrekked and only walking rp Spenders.

1 Mincer 7Scouts attacking a full grp and Killing IT ?
Unlikely ....

And I dont have any sympathy for a caster Standing infront of a keep Wall F8 nuking and then crying for Archer Nerf.

Sad to See everyone demands safety weels and Devs give Thema.
Yes Im saying they are bad players, because they are cowards.
A well play scout should be able to stand his own with no-immunity perma-root or at least should be able to get away if they dont want to fight, but they dont even try to and thats why they deserve to be nerfed.
And Im talking specifically scouts, because there are enough rangers and hunters who DO solo.

May I ask what Kind of class you Play ?

Sounds a litle too easey to say they are bad players dont you think ? And why cowards ?
-because they grp ?
-because they flee
-because the "meet" at hotspots ?
Sun 10 May 2020 10:24 AM by RedShft
I hate posting on forums but I think this change requires me to say something.

This is one of the worst changes I've seen a dev do period.

1) It penalizes players from playing with each other
With this new change if you have a friend or family member that has a sneak time to think twice before playing together. Playing with someone else in a video game always makes it more fun, that's pretty much a rule and now we have to think twice about whether we want to weigh playing together and having a shit time because one of the major aspects of our class is nerfed because we're near each other.

Seriously though, what's the issue we're "fixing" here?

Is it sneak groups camping relic town gates/docks/etc?
Having multiple 50s visi and sneak alike I've been jumped in equal amount by sneaks/smallmen/8man/zergs. I see no major problem with stealth zergs. But that's just my personal account.

The devs SHOULD HAVE TELEMETRY DATA. Get the fucking data, show us how many people have died in the frontier after being attacked by multiple stealthers from the same realm. Show us the data that indicates that stealth groups of 3+ were raking up so many kills (comparatively to visi smallman/8man) that warrants this change.

Having telemetry data is standard practice in game development. You do have data to back up your decisions, yes?

Until you show us this I'm assuming your decisions are based upon knee jerk reactions to the influx of bow sneaks in the past few days.

2) It penalizes ALL SNEAKS regardless of being grouped or not
Not only does this change impact me from playing with those who I enjoy playing with my stealth could also be nerfed if anyone from the opposite realm is near me. So not only does this harm sneaks playing together it harms sneaks playing in general.

3) This is a major change but no details or examples were provided as to how detection was changed
All we get related to how this change works (after I asked in discord) was "go test it". I'm sorry but that's not how this works. If you as a dev want people to be on board with a change such as this one you provide 1) justification and 2) explanation of how the change impacts players.

Justification
Tell us the reasoning behind this change and give us a glimpse of the data you used to back up this change.

Explanation
This could be as simple as saying "for every friendly in range of the sneak their detection radius increases by x units". Or like something a video.
Sun 10 May 2020 11:54 AM by SlowMo
And how will fg’s and small men be penalized in the future?
I see them ganking solos all the time?
Sun 10 May 2020 12:25 PM by Lillebror
How on earth can a stealther take part in keep takes now?

And i hope fg`s get a instant debuff as soon they are in cliprange of other visuals.

Tbh they should just remove stealthers as a possibibility with this kind of change. And its not even 1th april.
Sun 10 May 2020 1:15 PM by Tumultus
There was no vote on this change, and apparently no testing about how this change will impact game play. And to make it worst the Devs have given us no rationale for why this change was made.

From what I have heard, it is because of stealther groups killing visibles...when they are out solo in NF or at the docks, etc. The compliant goes, we can't see them and they kill us therefore it is not fair and we need to be able to see them. This logic is highly flawed for two reasons: 1) solos and people at docks get killed by smallmans/ 8mans/ zergs in the NF all the time (trust me I like to run NF solo on a zerker), 2) stealthers are part of the game and so is grouping up with people by this change you are impacting a CORE part of the game.

This changes prevents friends and family members from grouping together, which if we are being serious is the main reason we why a majority of us play this game, to socialize.

Most importantly, this change makes stealthers completely, particularly melee stealthers, not viable. As it stands, people see little value in having a stealther in a group and very often they are left to solo along zergs/ relic raids/ keep takes. If you can't now be near ANY other friendly player or even stealther there is no where in the NF you can be. One poster make the perfect point that in keep raids stealthers are now entire useless to climb and PA casters.

A better alternative to this change, if it is even warranted through data that stealth zergs are killing a larger portion of the NF population than visible groups, is to have a limit to the number of stealthers who can group together.

NONE of this should be done without hard data and evidence and a vote by the community.

If this change remains, I request to be refunded the 20+ Plat I spent on my SB template. My brother, who lives in another country, and I enjoy playing together and socializing on our two stealthers. You have now killed that for us.
Sun 10 May 2020 2:20 PM by TarmonGaidon
People have it wrong here... this isn’t a stealth zerg nerf... it’s an assassin nerf across the board (solo or grouped). Coordinated stealth groups are adjusting by changing tactics and spreading out. This is especially effective for the Albs whose stealthers have insta mezz or an anytime stun to slow a fight and allow their stealthed allies to converge. They also don’t need to worry about being jumped by multiple assassins or an assassin hiding alongside a visi... because they can now see them from a ways out.

Solo stealthers, and especially those that have to get in melee range, are suffering because we have to balance finding or getting to the bad guys while also now staying away from any allies. That low level ally out there leveling is no longer someone you try to help... they are a @($/ debuff to those around them.
Sun 10 May 2020 2:24 PM by Fugax
I love how ppl cry about stealthers, yet they dont have any damn hearler, only pot buffs, and ppl act as if they some sort of 8 man rr 9 plus consistently camping docks. IF any change needed to be made it would be those in a group of 8 can only attack a group of 5 or more. Stealthers are not the issue, its the 8 mans, and there organized fights, and the bullshit metta they have created here. I've been 8v1 far too many times to count by 8 mans than any stealther zerg (3plus in stealther grp i guess). This new implement was poorly thought out, and clearly bias opinion on the devs part... shame.
Sun 10 May 2020 2:25 PM by Pigleto
You need to do something like create a signal beacon above the stealther's head while he is stealthed. A green beacon would pulse and would tell the stealther that he is fully cloaked and cannot be detected by range. A yellow beacon would tell him he is not completely hidden that people can see him from a short distance away. A red beacon would tell him that people can see him completely. You need to make it reasonable so that we know as stealthers if we are stealthed or if people can see us or not because we don't know. put a pulsing beacon above our head that only we can see that lets us know if we need to leave the area if we are detectable or if we are safe to remain. We have no idea what other stealth are in the area and we have no control of 8 mans or zergs coming into the area either. Please make this change.
Sun 10 May 2020 2:51 PM by joshisanonymous
As someone who almost exclusively solos and never as a stealther, this seems bad. I know my guild groups stealthers for zergs, but now those players are heavily penalized. Also, as much as it sucks getting killed by a stealth zerg, they're pretty esay to avoid, and they get reported quickly, which seems like the more reasonable counter: someone gets stealth zerged > they team up with other stealth or get visible groups to run down the stealth zerg. The stealth zergers are usually just not strong players also, but they still get to have some fun if they group, much like casual zergers, and this penalizes them for doing so.

I'm guessing this is similar to the pvp zone: it's a way to throw a bone to soloers. Honestly, though, soloers need to understand that soloing in an RvR game comes with significant risk that you just have to live with. That risk is supposed to be what makes soloing exciting -- succeeding despite the risk -- but it seems that many so-called soloers have not figured this all out even after 20 years.
Sun 10 May 2020 3:35 PM by Siouxsie
The "modified" change here that now removes this stealth detection from keeps/towers and only affects when other friendly stealthers are in the area
IS STILL NOT THE SOLUTION.

Please completely roll back this change. It hurts ALL STEALTH CLASSES regardless of whether they are grouped or not.

If you want to do this properly, implement it for alb stealth groups. They have overwhelming utility (minstrel with CC control and speed, Scout with shield slam and root snare, and Infi with it's huge pool of spec points). Mid and Hib don't have anywhere near the utility of that.
Sun 10 May 2020 4:00 PM by SlowMo
Siouxsie wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 3:35 PM
The "modified" change here that now removes this stealth detection from keeps/towers and only affects when other friendly stealthers are in the area
IS STILL NOT THE SOLUTION.

Please completely roll back this change. It hurts ALL STEALTH CLASSES regardless of whether they are grouped or not.

If you want to do this properly, implement it for alb stealth groups. They have overwhelming utility (minstrel with CC control and speed, Scout with shield slam and root snare, and Infi with it's huge pool of spec points). Mid and Hib don't have anywhere near the utility of that.

Since when is utility important for zergs?
Sorry mate but this is 10x dumber then the change itself. Interestingly enough I get zerget by hib.
So one can imagine this is a total subjective feeling and has nothing todo with realm.
Sun 10 May 2020 4:24 PM by gromet12
If they can get that advanced with this, just make it for those that group. Atm it was bad because it was any friendly player around, not it makes it possible to not be seen at clip range in a siege, fix it so it addresses the problem....As stealthers join a GROUP they start to be seen more easily, have that % start small for 2 then become a multiplier as more join. 4 sneaks in group, they are seen from what 800 range by other sneaks that are solo, add that POS fog of albs that always camps around, they are seen at clip range and archers from other realms solo can take them out from distance
Sun 10 May 2020 4:30 PM by gotwqqd
gromet12 wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 4:24 PM
If they can get that advanced with this, just make it for those that group. Atm it was bad because it was any friendly player around, not it makes it possible to not be seen at clip range in a siege, fix it so it addresses the problem....As stealthers join a GROUP they start to be seen more easily, have that % start small for 2 then become a multiplier as more join. 4 sneaks in group, they are seen from what 800 range by other sneaks that are solo, add that POS fog of albs that always camps around, they are seen at clip range and archers from other realms solo can take them out from distance
No
It needs to be total ENEMY stealthed slowly increases detection range.
The tough part is figuring out the algorithm and how many within a determined range increases by how much.

Even better would be that if density is very high for some sq.unit value detect becomes better also.
Sun 10 May 2020 4:31 PM by Mavella
Ahahahah finally implemented. It would certainly be ideal to know the details ie.

No penalty until 3 stealthers s in x radius. Stealth penalty of x units for each additional stealther in the area up to a maximum of what.

Also a message or something to let you know when your stealth is worse/returns to normal because of this change.

To the people still bitching sorry you can't crutch on perma stealth+numbers with impunity anymore. This is EXACTLY the change that was needed. I had been waiting for this for a long time.

GG devs.
Sun 10 May 2020 4:57 PM by Khogor
Custom Server OK....some slight Changes also OK ..

But nerfing a whole Part of the Community by giving such useless custom Changes ...not OK

Stealth belongs to the Game end of story.

This is Like you would give penalties to the zerg If it is larger then x grps because enemy zerg ist outbumbered.

I am still wondering If this is some Kind of Joke ..or Devs
Having fun while Reading forums.

And at least I Hope there is som sort of tool to calc Numbers here. For one "solo" Player who Like this Change follow 10 People disliking it.
Sun 10 May 2020 5:33 PM by Norhir
Khogor wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 4:57 PM
Custom Server OK....some slight Changes also OK ..

But nerfing a whole Part of the Community by giving such useless custom Changes ...not OK

Stealth belongs to the Game end of story.

This is Like you would give penalties to the zerg If it is larger then x grps because enemy zerg ist outbumbered.

I am still wondering If this is some Kind of Joke ..or Devs


Agreed. Messing around with the stealth mechanic is not a well thought out solution at all.
Sun 10 May 2020 6:52 PM by nyght999
Stop trying to force a playstyle on people that you want. Who cares if people want to roam around with a full 8 man stealth party. You don't punish people for zerging, stop punishing people for no reason other than because you're butthurt from being killed by a stealther. This just went full retard, and you never go full retard.
Sun 10 May 2020 8:13 PM by Quik
nyght999 wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 6:52 PM
Stop trying to force a playstyle on people that you want.

You mean Pheonix? You want the owners of the server, and the people who have put all the effort into making this game possible, without any compensation, you want these people to stop trying to make people play how THEY envision THEIR server?

If the dev's want people to just nuke each other, that is their right. If they want pure melee, that is their right. If they want zero stealth, well that is their right.

Or people can just wait and see how things go and let the dev's tweak like they usually do.

My god, people bitch and moan about every little thing the dev's do on THEIR OWN SERVER without stopping to realize this is the best server we have had in years and it is light years ahead of live.

Bow players were left in the dark for how long and they finally got their time to shine, stealthers have been fine for ages and you get something that affects you negatively and you act like the world is ending. Welcome to the life of the friar before they finally helped them and other classes who still could use help.

Damn, just post actual facts and let them know and stop acting like they owe YOU for giving YOU this incredible server.
Sun 10 May 2020 8:22 PM by brewtus23
Seriously you bring nothing to the post except crying and complaining about other people post about the changes. The forums would be better off if you would just shut the hell up or post something that is actually about the topic rather then just bitching about other people posting.
Sun 10 May 2020 8:51 PM by Kadal
first of all i dont feel like the doesnt count at keeps/towers part went through
second of all it still does way more than what it was intended for, still annoying for solo players in my opinion in various ways, group stealthers still easily group and coordinate, solo players fuck each other randomly.
i really dont understand why this is necessary, even after the change today it's such a big change of a fundamental core mechanic of the game and u just put it in randomly, completely missing the intention of the change and doing more harm than good in my opinion.

i still really hope u reconsider this for now, let a discussion happen about why this is necessary and how to maybe achieve the goal that u want to achieve in a better way and hope people give constructive feedback/filter out the constructive feedback.
Sun 10 May 2020 9:30 PM by Fribrand
It seems like they would have been better of just implementing STEALTH LORE buff to anyone in high traffic areas... such as docks, gates, etc...
Sun 10 May 2020 11:39 PM by DaleRod
Put stealth back the way it was. The reason stealthers run together is they alone can kill almost no one. Also almost no one will put them into a group duo, smallman or 8 man. They have no choice but to group with other stealth and can easily be taken down if anyone bothers to look for them. Heck they can't even get in a group in a zerg with a dozen groups.
Mon 11 May 2020 12:04 AM by thirian24
DaleRod wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 11:39 PM
Put stealth back the way it was. The reason stealthers run together is they alone can kill almost no one. Also almost no one will put them into a group duo, smallman or 8 man. They have no choice but to group with other stealth and can easily be taken down if anyone bothers to look for them. Heck they can't even get in a group in a zerg with a dozen groups.


EL oh EL
Mon 11 May 2020 6:48 AM by Sepplord
DaleRod wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 11:39 PM
Put stealth back the way it was. The reason stealthers run together is they alone can kill almost no one. Also almost no one will put them into a group duo, smallman or 8 man. They have no choice but to group with other stealth and can easily be taken down if anyone bothers to look for them. Heck they can't even get in a group in a zerg with a dozen groups.

Mon 11 May 2020 7:09 AM by Anelyn77
DaleRod wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 11:39 PM
Put stealth back the way it was. The reason stealthers run together is they alone can kill almost no one. Also almost no one will put them into a group duo, smallman or 8 man. They have no choice but to group with other stealth and can easily be taken down if anyone bothers to look for them. Heck they can't even get in a group in a zerg with a dozen groups.

First claim - false. Anyone familiar with the mechanics of stealth play, be it sin or archer can kill several classes from other realms. Obv there will be some that are harder, and others that are a complete no thank you, next time (Necro, BD, warrior etc).

2nd claim: albion runs minstrels from solo to zergs. Archers are often grouped in 8m inside BG's, even sins get spots.

Often, believe it or not, stealth works with bg leaders and 8m to inform about enemy movement etc.

It is a RvR game after all.
Mon 11 May 2020 10:35 AM by inoeth
DaleRod wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 11:39 PM
Put stealth back the way it was. The reason stealthers run together is they alone can kill almost no one. Also almost no one will put them into a group duo, smallman or 8 man. They have no choice but to group with other stealth and can easily be taken down if anyone bothers to look for them. Heck they can't even get in a group in a zerg with a dozen groups.

rofl
l2p
Mon 11 May 2020 10:36 AM by Khogor
I would like to see some detailled Information on this.

Which grp size does implement this , how high ist the detection.

Yesterday between Crim and DC was a back and forth between alb and Mid Sneaked. My personal opinion as Scout ..you see the enemy sneak slightly!
earlyer..not enought to get a shot of , but perhabs to turn another way.

Nont know how it is with visi grps. Perhaps we will get a reasonable Information beside everyoney frear beeing rolled by 8man grps all the time
Mon 11 May 2020 5:41 PM by erichugonnett
I would love to see maybe longshot and Volley in my archery line. we shouldn't have to spend RAs on something we should already be capable of doing. Instead of the previous suggestions. its a waste of points and designed to gimp us even more if we choose to go that route for such a situational abilities. Scouts have a minstrel 90% of the time aka the OP GOD MODE class that can do everything. They dont need stealth in most situations they can just sos away and stealth its BS. if this was designed to stop stealthers from zerging it not working albs stealth are still doing it. And now rangers have to choose between melee or archery and it seems the only groups of sneaks with cc are albs. Crowd control is king idc what anyone says. we are just left out with no way to run. If your a stealther and like to group and take on visi's this is a big deal how are we suppose to compete with them anyways. why do u think we zerg? give us love! I have lots of suggestions and plenty that we could test but everytime u change something I have to spend a bunch of feathers finding a new meta and its almost seems pointless at this point I dont think we were ever designed to solo. especially archers!
Mon 11 May 2020 6:01 PM by erichugonnett
nkeplinger1 wrote:
Sat 9 May 2020 7:18 PM
The devs really don't like stealth classes. It's ok to zerg solos and small mans into the ground with any other class in the game, but don't you dare group as a stealth class. Let people play daoc as it was designed and stop trying to develop an 8 man utopia.

exactly!! they probably dont even read if they did they should respond to this message right here! lets see if they do and we will have our answer
Mon 11 May 2020 6:32 PM by Saroi
erichugonnett wrote:
Mon 11 May 2020 5:41 PM
I would love to see maybe longshot and Volley in my archery line. we shouldn't have to spend RAs on something we should already be capable of doing. Instead of the previous suggestions. its a waste of points and designed to gimp us even more if we choose to go that route for such a situational abilities.

You can argue about volley because most useful it is in keep fights. But Long shot is definitely not gimping you in anyway. Especialy vs caster it boosts your damage by a good amount and definitely not a waste of points.
Mon 11 May 2020 7:48 PM by erichugonnett
Saroi wrote:
Mon 11 May 2020 6:32 PM
erichugonnett wrote:
Mon 11 May 2020 5:41 PM
I would love to see maybe longshot and Volley in my archery line. we shouldn't have to spend RAs on something we should already be capable of doing. Instead of the previous suggestions. its a waste of points and designed to gimp us even more if we choose to go that route for such a situational abilities.

You can argue about volley because most useful it is in keep fights. But Long shot is definitely not gimping you in anyway. Especialy vs caster it boosts your damage by a good amount and definitely not a waste of points.

I can agree with you on that but yes volley feels like a big waste of points
just wanted to argue the fact that both of them are ra abilities
Mon 11 May 2020 10:53 PM by paqdizzle
Can I ask you all a serious question and actually get a truthful response?

When have you seen a full group + of sneaks let alone 2fg or a zerg of sneaks? Where were they? I have yet to see zergs of sneaks... maybe a 4 man or 5 man every now and then, and usually out and about near flag points or doing /task..

Now when was the last time you saw a visi group, FG or otherwise? Chances are they are rolling with heals and CC with peels and the standard stun/debuff/nuke.

What's worse? They are both playing how the game was intended for their classes to work in RvR. except even if you ran into a 5 or 6 man of sneaks, they have no heals other than AM and that's only if they have a mini with those RAs to heal and it's on a 15 minute cooldown, so that's hardly heals for the whole battle and doesn't work for that mini himself which only means, that's your first assist target. No CC other than a mini's CC which in comparison is trash to other mezzes. you want mezzed for 20-30 seconds? or over a minute? lol

The bottom line is there is a clear distinction of hate towards sneaks or sneak classes that shouldn't exist IF you take into account what is already happening on this server. Everything you all are hating about sneaks - is being done by everyone else NOT sneak based. lol Cmon...

As far as the OP goes, I didn't like the stealth detection thing considering SL was already in the game. My main is a sneak and it's for sure bothersome. it doesn't stop me from killing solo or in small mans but it's just frustrating. Our job as a sneak is exactly that... to be a sneak, everything we do to get a kill comes from being able to sneak... XD come on guys. Stop hating.
Mon 11 May 2020 11:27 PM by gotwqqd
Longshot ->48 Archery
Volley. ->50 Archery
Mon 11 May 2020 11:34 PM by Quik
paqdizzle wrote:
Mon 11 May 2020 10:53 PM
When have you seen a full group + of sneaks let alone 2fg or a zerg of sneaks? Where were they? I have yet to see zergs of sneaks... maybe a 4 man or 5 man every now and then, and usually out and about near flag points or doing /task..

Well to be fair I see 3-5 stealthers at the upplad dock in Mid where you turn in snow all the time. I play NA time in the evening and there are groups of different stealthers camping the docks all the time for 3-4 hours.

Occasionally a group will run through and wpie them but they are back within a very short time.

It isn't just steathed either as I see Minnies and Enchanters there a lot also, but not nearly as much as stealthed players.
Mon 11 May 2020 11:48 PM by gromet12
Quik wrote:
Mon 11 May 2020 11:34 PM
paqdizzle wrote:
Mon 11 May 2020 10:53 PM
When have you seen a full group + of sneaks let alone 2fg or a zerg of sneaks? Where were they? I have yet to see zergs of sneaks... maybe a 4 man or 5 man every now and then, and usually out and about near flag points or doing /task..

Well to be fair I see 3-5 stealthers at the upplad dock in Mid where you turn in snow all the time. I play NA time in the evening and there are groups of different stealthers camping the docks all the time for 3-4 hours.

Occasionally a group will run through and wpie them but they are back within a very short time.

It isn't just steathed either as I see Minnies and Enchanters there a lot also, but not nearly as much as stealthed players.

The docks should have the old sneak NPC toon that would wreck most the stealth zerglings hanging around the dock

You don't see Hibs or Mids grouped the same as albs; it comes down to a class issue, something the other realms don't have, a utility sneak
Tue 12 May 2020 1:03 AM by gotwqqd
gromet12 wrote:
Mon 11 May 2020 11:48 PM
Quik wrote:
Mon 11 May 2020 11:34 PM
paqdizzle wrote:
Mon 11 May 2020 10:53 PM
When have you seen a full group + of sneaks let alone 2fg or a zerg of sneaks? Where were they? I have yet to see zergs of sneaks... maybe a 4 man or 5 man every now and then, and usually out and about near flag points or doing /task..

Well to be fair I see 3-5 stealthers at the upplad dock in Mid where you turn in snow all the time. I play NA time in the evening and there are groups of different stealthers camping the docks all the time for 3-4 hours.

Occasionally a group will run through and wpie them but they are back within a very short time.

It isn't just steathed either as I see Minnies and Enchanters there a lot also, but not nearly as much as stealthed players.

The docks should have the old sneak NPC toon that would wreck most the stealth zerglings hanging around the dock

You don't see Hibs or Mids grouped the same as albs; it comes down to a class issue, something the other realms don't have, a utility sneak
Hibs muds do it just as much
Tue 12 May 2020 2:24 AM by Riac
DaleRod wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 11:39 PM
Put stealth back the way it was. The reason stealthers run together is they alone can kill almost no one. Also almost no one will put them into a group duo, smallman or 8 man. They have no choice but to group with other stealth and can easily be taken down if anyone bothers to look for them. Heck they can't even get in a group in a zerg with a dozen groups.

lol loving these tears
Tue 12 May 2020 5:43 AM by Deccion
RedShft wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 10:24 AM
I hate posting on forums but I think this change requires me to say something.

This is one of the worst changes I've seen a dev do period.

1) It penalizes players from playing with each other
With this new change if you have a friend or family member that has a sneak time to think twice before playing together. Playing with someone else in a video game always makes it more fun, that's pretty much a rule and now we have to think twice about whether we want to weigh playing together and having a shit time because one of the major aspects of our class is nerfed because we're near each other.

Seriously though, what's the issue we're "fixing" here?

Is it sneak groups camping relic town gates/docks/etc?
Having multiple 50s visi and sneak alike I've been jumped in equal amount by sneaks/smallmen/8man/zergs. I see no major problem with stealth zergs. But that's just my personal account.

The devs SHOULD HAVE TELEMETRY DATA. Get the fucking data, show us how many people have died in the frontier after being attacked by multiple stealthers from the same realm. Show us the data that indicates that stealth groups of 3+ were raking up so many kills (comparatively to visi smallman/8man) that warrants this change.

Having telemetry data is standard practice in game development. You do have data to back up your decisions, yes?

Until you show us this I'm assuming your decisions are based upon knee jerk reactions to the influx of bow sneaks in the past few days.

2) It penalizes ALL SNEAKS regardless of being grouped or not
Not only does this change impact me from playing with those who I enjoy playing with my stealth could also be nerfed if anyone from the opposite realm is near me. So not only does this harm sneaks playing together it harms sneaks playing in general.

3) This is a major change but no details or examples were provided as to how detection was changed
All we get related to how this change works (after I asked in discord) was "go test it". I'm sorry but that's not how this works. If you as a dev want people to be on board with a change such as this one you provide 1) justification and 2) explanation of how the change impacts players.

Justification
Tell us the reasoning behind this change and give us a glimpse of the data you used to back up this change.

Explanation
This could be as simple as saying "for every friendly in range of the sneak their detection radius increases by x units". Or like something a video.

I cant say it better and this post deserves to be repeated by everyone so Devs see it over and over.
Tue 12 May 2020 6:43 AM by Taniquetil
You’re still able to group, it just comes with a cost, work around it, adapt your playstyle, move on.

A fight where you severely outnumber your opponent is boring anyway, so what’s the problem?
Tue 12 May 2020 6:48 AM by inoeth
Taniquetil wrote:
Tue 12 May 2020 6:43 AM
You’re still able to group, it just comes with a cost, work around it, adapt your playstyle, move on.

A fight where you severely outnumber your opponent is boring anyway, so what’s the problem?

DaleRod wrote:
Sun 10 May 2020 11:39 PM
Put stealth back the way it was. The reason stealthers run together is they alone can kill almost no one. Also almost no one will put them into a group duo, smallman or 8 man. They have no choice but to group with other stealth and can easily be taken down if anyone bothers to look for them. Heck they can't even get in a group in a zerg with a dozen groups.

thats the problem ;D
Tue 12 May 2020 6:52 AM by SlowMo
Taniquetil wrote:
Tue 12 May 2020 6:43 AM
A fight where you severely outnumber your opponent is boring anyway, so what’s the problem?

From a solo sin point of view:

Big and small stealth groups still exist, this change doesnt do a shit to avoid them.
As solo you simply can´t be aware of others stealth around you.

Thats the problem.

And again: Whats the difference to visible FG/small men steam rolling solos?
Tue 12 May 2020 7:02 AM by Sepplord
You can see visible groups coming and avoid them....do you really not see the difference? I call bullshit, that all the stealthers asking that question really are unaware of the difference

i mean, this whole thread calls them "visis" for VISIBLE, yet every other comment is asking about the difference.

2-3stealthers camping a hill to the side of a road in between two keeps or something will not get caught there just because they are a bit more visible. You can't sit directly in front of the docks or on a bridge anymore without risking detection though.
Tue 12 May 2020 8:56 AM by Wasa
It IS the same, to get zerged by visibles or stealthers.

Well, I think that most did’n see the worse that is done with this nerf. When stealthers are gone, visible classes will take that part to find their fights and the same complainers will get zerged the same way, by visibles.
Did they really feel better with this? I guess no. The fact that there are hot spots to catch others will stay further. And also most didn‘t understand that it makes no difference from whom your‘ zerged. Zerged by stealthers could be much mory scary, okay... now, for those who didn‘t know that fact: stealthers are Rouge-Classes and not missionarys. Of course stealther did the bad-guy part in this game, this is the given mentality to their profession. There is no, really no reason, to discriminate or to insult stealther for this. No reason also to hide under mothers skirt, pointing the very bad guy who made you cry. Come out and find your way to participate in this game, without begging for an extra grant.

And there is another, maybe very sad thing, I have to tell to all who want a safe way to the docks for xp-shopping or sightseeing boat tour in the frontiers: -THERE IS NO SAFE PLACE IN FZ - don‘t expect to have a safe journey across this area. Danger will come , sometimes it will be advertised by an big dusty cloud and a shaking ground, but mostly suddenly and without advertising. This is the part stealther fill.
About the really hard work to be well prepared and to succed a fight I don‘t want to talk here...

In my opinion all who welcome this nerf, didn‘t understand that every class gets for every strenght also a decent weakness. Visibles are good to go in groups for their own safety, stealthers are condemnet to go solo and/or small groups without any buffer or healer. Keep this in mind, when you flaming stealthers.

I disagree absolutely with any interferences in any basic class mechanik that conteracts that class’ profession.

That‘s all for now.
Cya ingame for action and fun, mates
Tue 12 May 2020 10:37 AM by Noashakra
I think it's you that doesn't get this game.

Visible zergs are needed, because they take keeps and relics. It's needed to keep a healthy balance in the rvr game. The zerg is not camping one dock or a keep, it moves with a target.

What are the stealth zerg good at? Destroying solos and duos at bridges while avoiding similar size groups. The stealth zergs bring nothing, and destroy the population who want to go alone or in small groups (lots of people leaving because of this). Do you think it's fun to go to the docks to get instant killed by ministrel + 1 PA + 2 critshot that you can't avoid? Then try another way and the same happens with mids that are camping a bit further away? And now imagine if you play a visible class it's even worst...

I have a ranger and now I am rolling a NS, and I am 100% for this nerf.
Tue 12 May 2020 11:15 AM by gromet12
It is not strong enough tbh

The formula should also take into consideration if you’re grouped or not, and once grouped your stealth is down to being seen by visible when they run past you
Tue 12 May 2020 12:23 PM by Saroi
Noashakra wrote:
Tue 12 May 2020 10:37 AM
I think it's you that doesn't get this game.

Visible zergs are needed, because they take keeps and relics. It's needed to keep a healthy balance in the rvr game. The zerg is not camping one dock or a keep, it moves with a target.

What are the stealth zerg good at? Destroying solos and duos at bridges while avoiding similar size groups. The stealth zergs bring nothing, and destroy the population who want to go alone or in small groups (lots of people leaving because of this). Do you think it's fun to go to the docks to get instant killed by ministrel + 1 PA + 2 critshot that you can't avoid? Then try another way and the same happens with mids that are camping a bit further away? And now imagine if you play a visible class it's even worst...

I have a ranger and now I am rolling a NS, and I am 100% for this nerf.

Well if you say visible zerg take keeps and relics and it is needed for a healthy balance I don't understand how you can say stealth groups(Zergs) are not.

Stealth and mostly in this case stealth groups provide information. They play for the realm and not like you or me for solo gain. They are the ones telling were visible groups are roaming or were for instance Pilzpower(visi zerg) is. Raid leaders are always happy when they receive information. Also they kill the backup so that the own zerg having less enemies and can overpower the enemy zerg or defenders to take the keeps or even relics.

I get that it is frustrating to die to stealth groups. However they are and should be part of the game. This stealth change is also useless because looking at yesterday it didn't change anything. Stealth Legends (Biby, Mysteri and Co.) still killing a lot in EV. Hanma being with like 3-4 Other stealthers all day at Uppland and killing. For most Visibles even with a detect range (allthough still not quite sure how big the range is) it doesn't do much because you will be in range to be attacked and still die. Only as a stealther you can be able to avoid them.

I am solo and I am getting screwed atm. I had 2 times now that I was EV entrance and having an enemy stealther running over the bridge without stealth and then stealthing. I walk to him to intercept and can't find anything. I unstealth and see that he is actually walking back. He is unstealthing too and trying to run. I then found out that there were a few SB's/hunters being at the entrance of EV too. So this makes me believe they saw me because of the other friendly stealthers in that area which I don't even see. This forces me as a solo to leave a place when some other stealther of my Realm decide to go were I am atm because it makes me even more vulnerable. If I get caught by some I will not be able to defend myself like a stealthgroup will be able to. Also in most cases you don't even know when you have nearby stealthers if you are somewhere like in EV.

Again, this change is just unnecessary.
Tue 12 May 2020 12:38 PM by Wasa
What right did anybody claim for himself to request a change of basic game mechanics just for his personal idea of how a game should work..?

Maybe the next example is easier to understand:
When playing Monopoly it is okay to change money rates, itemsizes, colours o.s. for all. But to change a basic rule, such that it would be forbidden to only one participant to buy both, Parkstr and Schlossallee (resp. Park Place and Broadwalk) will counteract the basic and lead to an unfair practice...hm?

I want to play my char as intended from the start. Now it‘s level 50, well temped...spend many time maintenance and stress in it, and now not playable anymore.
Sorry, that is unfair and I feel betrayed.

I claim the right not to change eminent basic game mechanics, because it was from the beginning the intendend way.

I‘m playing SB since EU release, I know pretty good the history of DaoC and the whole patching and nerfing chaos.
What happens here on Phoenix is nothing new
Tue 12 May 2020 1:29 PM by Noashakra
lol monopoly is 1vs1 or 1vs1vs1 etc.

If it was 2vs1 or 3vs1, it would not be fun and people would not play this shit. So bad example...

how you can say stealth groups(Zergs) are not.
How many keeps did they take so far?????????
lol...
Tue 12 May 2020 1:33 PM by Tamy
Saroi wrote:
Tue 12 May 2020 12:23 PM
Well if you say visible zerg take keeps and relics and it is needed for a healthy balance I don't understand how you can say stealth groups(Zergs) are not.

Stealth and mostly in this case stealth groups provide information. They play for the realm and not like you or me for solo gain. They are the ones telling were visible groups are roaming or were for instance Pilzpower(visi zerg) is. Raid leaders are always happy when they receive information. Also they kill the backup so that the own zerg having less enemies and can overpower the enemy zerg or defenders to take the keeps or even relics.

I get that it is frustrating to die to stealth groups. However they are and should be part of the game. This stealth change is also useless because looking at yesterday it didn't change anything. Stealth Legends (Biby, Mysteri and Co.) still killing a lot in EV. Hanma being with like 3-4 Other stealthers all day at Uppland and killing. For most Visibles even with a detect range (allthough still not quite sure how big the range is) it doesn't do much because you will be in range to be attacked and still die. Only as a stealther you can be able to avoid them.

I am solo and I am getting screwed atm. I had 2 times now that I was EV entrance and having an enemy stealther running over the bridge without stealth and then stealthing. I walk to him to intercept and can't find anything. I unstealth and see that he is actually walking back. He is unstealthing too and trying to run. I then found out that there were a few SB's/hunters being at the entrance of EV too. So this makes me believe they saw me because of the other friendly stealthers in that area which I don't even see. This forces me as a solo to leave a place when some other stealther of my Realm decide to go were I am atm because it makes me even more vulnerable. If I get caught by some I will not be able to defend myself like a stealthgroup will be able to. Also in most cases you don't even know when you have nearby stealthers if you are somewhere like in EV.

Again, this change is just unnecessary.

I totally agree. I play my stealthers 99% of the time solo and never understood the whole whining about stealth zergs. Most of the time you are able to bypass them or you go to hotspots like DC bridge at EU primetime and just have to assume that you will get several arrows up your butt as soon as you unstealth. Sure, they can be a pain in the ass but they are part of the game. To be honest I haven't really played my stealthers since this change but I just don't see any need for it (other than to calm down some certain players...).
Tue 12 May 2020 4:18 PM by Quik
Saroi wrote:
Tue 12 May 2020 12:23 PM
Stealth and mostly in this case stealth groups provide information. They play for the realm and not like you or me for solo gain. They are the ones telling were visible groups are roaming or were for instance Pilzpower(visi zerg) is. Raid leaders are always happy when they receive information. Also they kill the backup so that the own zerg having less enemies and can overpower the enemy zerg or defenders to take the keeps or even relics.

I have a strong feeling that this nerf was based directly on stopping stealthers from camping docks/bridges around lower areas more then anything, and the recent changes so that when you are taking a keep you aren't affected by this now just reinforces it.

You say what about stealthers that are providing information? Those people won't be affected hardly at all since you don't usually have more then 1 stealthier who is giving information right next to each other. Stealthers that are actively out and looking for targets aren't nearly as affected by this either.

What this has mainly done, and it has most certainly worked, it has DRASTICALLY reduced stealth GROUPS camping docks where turnins are. Before this nerf I would take anyone lvl 1-50 and head to docks and I would get ganked by 3-4 stealthers at Uppland docks at LEAST 50% of the time and that raises a lot during more popular hours. Since the nerf I have seen a single stealth group camping the docks.

Again, I thnk the dev's just don't want people camping a single spot in such stupid numbers.

Now, instead of camping docks my friends that play stealthers are roaming again and actually providing information other then "Group of albs/hibs getting on boat at starter dock area, which isn't information but I suppose it made them feel important while they sat there ganking greys/xpers turning in soil/branches
Tue 12 May 2020 4:26 PM by imweasel
Would forcing stealthers to have to spec higher in stealth to avoid this penalty/nerf work?

A couple of examples:

Allow rr+ to affect comp stealth and make the total comp stealth required at least 52 (whatever figure is decided) to negate the penalty.

No longer allow rr+ to add to comp stealth score and require a comp stealth of 50-51 to ignore the penalty.

I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that stealthers are the only class in daoc that can make their spec point expenditure smaller in their class defining skill to improve spec in other lines as rr rose.

This idea is to force stealthers to make a choice on avoiding the penalty or not and roll the dice that they may have a penalty.

This allows soloers to continue to spec for solo action and force a zerg stealther to spec accordingly or roll the dice.

Anyways, just a silly thought...
Tue 12 May 2020 4:48 PM by Mavella
Saroi wrote:
Tue 12 May 2020 12:23 PM
I am solo and I am getting screwed atm. I had 2 times now that I was EV entrance and having an enemy stealther running over the bridge without stealth and then stealthing. I walk to him to intercept and can't find anything. I unstealth and see that he is actually walking back. He is unstealthing too and trying to run. I then found out that there were a few SB's/hunters being at the entrance of EV too. So this makes me believe they saw me because of the other friendly stealthers in that area which I don't even see. This forces me as a solo to leave a place when some other stealther of my Realm decide to go were I am atm because it makes me even more vulnerable. If I get caught by some I will not be able to defend myself like a stealthgroup will be able to. Also in most cases you don't even know when you have nearby stealthers if you are somewhere like in EV.

Again, this change is just unnecessary.

So this stealther was saved from getting gangbanged by the mids and you lost out on a few rps because of it? Seems to be working as intended.

I agree there needs to be some sort of feedback to players if they are getting a stealth penalty and don't realize it that is a major bummer.
Tue 12 May 2020 5:30 PM by Saroi
Quik wrote:
Tue 12 May 2020 4:18 PM
What this has mainly done, and it has most certainly worked, it has DRASTICALLY reduced stealth GROUPS camping docks where turnins are. Before this nerf I would take anyone lvl 1-50 and head to docks and I would get ganked by 3-4 stealthers at Uppland docks at LEAST 50% of the time and that raises a lot during more popular hours. Since the nerf I have seen a single stealth group camping the docks.


Not exactly sure what you are seeing. There has been several Alb stealther in Uppland the whole day yesterday. Today there are several hib stealther camping uppland. Nothing has changed at all in this regard. Same people who have been in Uppland the last few days/weeks. It changed nothing in that regard.
Tue 12 May 2020 5:47 PM by Saroi
Mavella wrote:
Tue 12 May 2020 4:48 PM
So this stealther was saved from getting gangbanged by the mids and you lost out on a few rps because of it? Seems to be working as intended.

I agree there needs to be some sort of feedback to players if they are getting a stealth penalty and don't realize it that is a major bummer.

Well I unstealthed and catched them before they could get away. If I had been in stealth then yeah, they would have probably survived or tried to walk around me and maybe ran into the group. You also don't really know if there are more enemies, because he just saw me and probably doesn't know that I didn't see him. So it is weird in both ways.

Uthred couldn't even tell in discord the exact ranges(Atleast last I read). So having no information at all is really annoying.
Tue 12 May 2020 5:56 PM by Quik
Saroi wrote:
Tue 12 May 2020 5:30 PM
Quik wrote:
Tue 12 May 2020 4:18 PM
What this has mainly done, and it has most certainly worked, it has DRASTICALLY reduced stealth GROUPS camping docks where turnins are. Before this nerf I would take anyone lvl 1-50 and head to docks and I would get ganked by 3-4 stealthers at Uppland docks at LEAST 50% of the time and that raises a lot during more popular hours. Since the nerf I have seen a single stealth group camping the docks.


Not exactly sure what you are seeing. There has been several Alb stealther in Uppland the whole day yesterday. Today there are several hib stealther camping uppland. Nothing has changed at all in this regard. Same people who have been in Uppland the last few days/weeks. It changed nothing in that regard.

I was on for about 6 hours yesterday in Uppland with a zerker and a Thane and I only got hit once and it wasn't a stealthier group. I never once saw anyone saying the docks were being camped by stealthers which was constant spam before this nerf, so yeah, there might be stealthers in Uppland, but they aren't camping the docks NEARLY as much as they were.

I am NA times so everything is from that perspective.

The funniest was when a group with a Minnie ran up, mezzed us all, checked us all out before they just ran off seeing we were all grey's. That was in Yggdra though.
Tue 12 May 2020 8:11 PM by gotwqqd
Since I started playing stealth “group” had been increasing more and more over time

I personally think these classes were designed as lone wolfs
Tue 12 May 2020 11:30 PM by DaleRod
Stealth has ALWAYS been part of this game. It is totally ruined. Put it back the way it was.

Also can the devs publish something showing the stealth detect range now vs what it was for a stealth 50, as far as the nerf in a group.
Wed 13 May 2020 3:16 AM by dbeattie71
When I’m on my shade I never stop moving and don’t stay in the same place, am i the only one that does that? Standing in one spot with other stealths sounds boring af.
Wed 13 May 2020 6:41 AM by SlowMo
I still don´t really know what this change was supposed to accomplish!?

Nothing has changed in regards of grouped/zerg stealthers
Wed 13 May 2020 4:56 PM by erichugonnett
SlowMo wrote:
Wed 13 May 2020 6:41 AM
I still don´t really know what this change was supposed to accomplish!?

Nothing has changed in regards of grouped/zerg stealthers

indeed nothing has changed but I do have a good suggestion to our problems. Make it to where only 2 of each class is allowed per group and take away or nerf minstrel's stealth some kinda way like he shouldn't be able to see us before there was MOS (mastery of stealth) something a mini could not get so why do they get free detection and same range as everyone else when they can do almost everything in the game except heal.
-Climb walls
-insta stun with fast reuse timer
-mez while moving
- speed
-stealth
-op pet if not stealth or however their spec
-dds with big damage
-and even aoe mez castable
- might as well give them heals too right?
-theyre the only class in game that can cast speed constantly no timer and they cant be cced if they have a pet to hit them and charm instantly
Amazing class! but dont you think they have too much
suggestions are welcome and correct me if im wrong
Wed 13 May 2020 4:59 PM by Siouxsie
erichugonnett wrote:
Wed 13 May 2020 4:56 PM
SlowMo wrote:
Wed 13 May 2020 6:41 AM
I still don´t really know what this change was supposed to accomplish!?

Nothing has changed in regards of grouped/zerg stealthers

indeed nothing has changed but I do have a good suggestion to our problems. Make it to where only 2 of each class is allowed per group and take away or nerf minstrel's stealth some kinda way like he shouldn't be able to see us before there was MOS (mastery of stealth) something a mini could not get so why do they get free detection and same range as everyone else when they can do almost everything in the game except heal.
-Climb walls
-insta stun with fast reuse timer
-mez while moving
- speed
-stealth
-op pet if not stealth or however their spec
-dds with big damage
-and even aoe mez castable
- might as well give them heals too right?
-theyre the only class in game that can cast speed constantly no timer and they cant be cced if they have a pet to hit them and charm instantly
Amazing class! but dont you think they have too much
suggestions are welcome and correct me if im wrong

Minstrels also get Ignore Pain amazingly enough. As if they weren't overpowered as it is.
Wed 13 May 2020 6:37 PM by Mavella
erichugonnett wrote:
Wed 13 May 2020 4:56 PM
SlowMo wrote:
Wed 13 May 2020 6:41 AM
I still don´t really know what this change was supposed to accomplish!?

Nothing has changed in regards of grouped/zerg stealthers

indeed nothing has changed but I do have a good suggestion to our problems. Make it to where only 2 of each class is allowed per group and take away or nerf minstrel's stealth some kinda way like he shouldn't be able to see us before there was MOS (mastery of stealth) something a mini could not get so why do they get free detection and same range as everyone else when they can do almost everything in the game except heal.
-Climb walls
-insta stun with fast reuse timer
-mez while moving
- speed
-stealth
-op pet if not stealth or however their spec
-dds with big damage
-and even aoe mez castable
- might as well give them heals too right?
-theyre the only class in game that can cast speed constantly no timer and they cant be cced if they have a pet to hit them and charm instantly
Amazing class! but dont you think they have too much
suggestions are welcome and correct me if im wrong

Ameliorating melodies would like to have a word with you.
Wed 13 May 2020 9:50 PM by Cadebrennus
erichugonnett wrote:
Wed 13 May 2020 4:56 PM
SlowMo wrote:
Wed 13 May 2020 6:41 AM
I still don´t really know what this change was supposed to accomplish!?

Nothing has changed in regards of grouped/zerg stealthers

indeed nothing has changed but I do have a good suggestion to our problems. Make it to where only 2 of each class is allowed per group and take away or nerf minstrel's stealth some kinda way like he shouldn't be able to see us before there was MOS (mastery of stealth) something a mini could not get so why do they get free detection and same range as everyone else when they can do almost everything in the game except heal.
-Climb walls
-insta stun with fast reuse timer
-mez while moving
- speed
-stealth
-op pet if not stealth or however their spec
-dds with big damage
-and even aoe mez castable
- might as well give them heals too right?
-theyre the only class in game that can cast speed constantly no timer and they cant be cced if they have a pet to hit them and charm instantly
Amazing class! but dont you think they have too much
suggestions are welcome and correct me if im wrong

They also get the highest tier of armor that is available across all three realms (plate being specific to Alb and not all tanks across all three realms.)

The only thing they're actually missing at this point is speccable shield.
Wed 20 May 2020 2:28 AM by Kadal
any new takes on this now? is this gonna stay? do u think u achieved what u wanted to achieve with this change?
Wed 20 May 2020 11:45 AM by imweasel
Kadal wrote:
Wed 20 May 2020 2:28 AM
any new takes on this now? is this gonna stay? do u think u achieved what u wanted to achieve with this change?

Not only will this stay, I think the dev team will go even further to nerf stealth.
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