group size limit - Phoenix Freeshard

Hi there,

in order to make the open RvR world a vivid place where people can go without optimizing for weeks and waiting for an 8man or a zerg to gather, impose a group size limit smaller than 8.

This post relates to the somewhat buried posts of Zansobar and defiasbandit:

https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1801&p=9894#p9878

(optional) In order to always enable the classic 8man fights most of us remember and love, add an extra 8man zone as compensation. ( for example cathal or another BG )

(optional) Make the group size limit adaptive depending on server population. So the group size limit would automatically adapt from minimum 3 to maximum 6 or so.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 4:25 PM by phixion

I don't like this idea at all.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 4:27 PM by Aincrad

phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 4:25 PM
I don't like this idea at all.

Same

Wed 29 Aug 2018 4:48 PM by Quik

No one is REQUIRED to wait til fill...why punish those that enjoy groups of 8?

Wed 29 Aug 2018 5:15 PM by schreon

Quik wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 4:48 PM
No one is REQUIRED to wait til fill...why punish those that enjoy groups of 8?

Because those lucky enough to fill up to 8 will effectively punish all with less than 8.

The probability of managing to build a group of 8 in a set amount of time is clearly lower than the probability of managing to build a group of lesder than 8 in the same set amount of time. If an 8man is running it is not viable to continue as a 5man for example. The only way is to escape to other zones and hope for enemies to come there.

Havent you experienced it yourself? You were running with 4 men, fighting other 3-5man. Everything fine and fun. Suddenly one of the groups fills up to 8. They destroy everything. You run 2 more times. Then you refuse to wipe again. You fail to find more players to fill up to 8. The groups disband. The other 8man runs around in Emain alone for 30 minutes. They dont find enemies anymore. They log off. No one is in Emain anymore.

This is a downward spiral.

Each group wipe increases the probability of disbands, leading to additional waiting times.

Hence, a smaller group size cap will inevitably lead to a RvR setting which is approachable much faster. There WILL be much more action if the group size cap is smaller than 8.

Plus, in Smallman, balancing issues don't have such a big impact. Running with 3 druids+ bard in a 5man might be stable but you wont do enough damage. That group could be beaten by a group consisting of , say, a Sorc, 2 Earth wizards and a friar. People might even pick up a Paladin.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 6:09 PM by Takii

How would reducing the number of people in a group decrease people's desire to min/max their group composition?? That is literally the opposite of what it would do.

If you have 15 things and can only pick 5 instead of 10, you're going to be more selective about what you pick, not less.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 8:01 PM by Quik

You are still punishing those that make a full group just so you can try to make small mans more feasible.

I don't see why punishing 1 group just to make the game better for another group helps the game...

Wed 29 Aug 2018 8:51 PM by schreon

Thank you for your responses, I try to answer.

It is not about punishment, but rather about social/PvP dynamics.

Imagine there was a group cap of 12. Clearly, as soon as one group of 12 is around, groups consisting of only 8 characters will most likely be defeated by them. Even if an additional 4man adds into the fight: the 8+4 are not coordinated to that extent and the class composition also won't be as perfect as the 12man.

There is another aspect. Apart from zerging, groups usually roam alone. A 12 vs 8 fight will last only a short period of time, so chances that a sufficiently large add-group will appear in time is small. This will force all groups with less then 12 men to either stick around an area where helping adds are likely ( lile milegates ) or wait in TK spamming /lfg until you have 12 persons.

Thus, the higher the group size cap, the lower the number of groups roaming in FZ will be. Also, the total number of players in RvR will be smaller, due to the higher cost of building a larger group.

If we put it the other way, the smaller the group size cap, the more groups and the more players will be in FZ.

There is another thing: Despite being not 'elite', many people prefer playing with their guild mates only and don't like engaging with other people from the server. As it is 2018 now, most guilds or peer groups are not as large as they might have been once. If they can provide a 8man they will run. If not, they wont even log in. I experienced this myself. There are WhatsApp groups and buddies write 'Who's online tonight?' and if there aren't enough responses, a whole guild won't log in, even if they don't necessarily aim at elite 8v8.

A smaller group cap in open world RvR would get all those people into the game. I know, ideally people would engage with everybody on the server and be more social. But people are as they are. Also, there is the language barrier, not everyone feels comfortable speaking english in voice all the time.

Regarding balancing issues in smallmen vs 8men, I can't provide a proper answer yet. From a theoretical view, yes, 8 slots allow more combinations as 5 slots. However, my impression so far is that smallman RvR groups more likely invite non-fotm characters like animists or void-elds. In a 5vs5 a 20-second mezz of a trispec-eld might even be crucial, whereas in 8v8 every bard most likely would cry a bit due to immunity timers on enemies.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 9:21 PM by Niix

Please no, this is daoc with QoL improvements... changing group size changes the entire concept of end game... will further ruin the chances hybrids get into group.

You just can't do that.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 9:29 PM by Rabbitstew

I'm pretty much all for the uncommon/non-meta classes getting more opportunity to play in group settings, and I think this kind of change will devastate them.

Due to how DAOC's classes are, smaller group size means more restrictive class options (if one wants to play "optimally"

. Right now, it's still hard to justify bringing some classes in the 8-man groups. With 4-, 5-, or 6-man groups, no way at all. The basics simply need covered or else you'll get smashed by those that do.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 10:04 PM by aso

Schreon forget it
I agree you 1000% BUT most ppl CAN just win by outnumber others and they meet every day because most of them are unemployed so it's no problem to build 8man for them

Why should they give away their biggest advantage

Ppl don't want fair fights because they are scared to see how hard they would fail

Wed 29 Aug 2018 10:34 PM by Niix

aso wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 10:04 PM
Schreon forget it
I agree you 1000% BUT most ppl CAN just win by outnumber others and they meet every day because most of them are unemployed so it's no problem to build 8man for them

Why should they give away their biggest advantage

Ppl don't want fair fights because they are scared to see how hard they would fail

Well that's a bit ridiculous of a statement and theory lol

Wed 29 Aug 2018 11:01 PM by relvinian

I think this is a good idea for uthgard, population 200.

But this isn't uthgard.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 11:01 PM by Zansobar

Quik wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 8:01 PM
You are still punishing those that make a full group just so you can try to make small mans more feasible.

I don't see why punishing 1 group just to make the game better for another group helps the game...

If small man's and soloers are not feasible all you will be left with are 8 man's and we ALL know what happens to servers when all that is left is that. (Hint: They die!)

Thu 30 Aug 2018 12:07 AM by defiasbandit

Ywain is dead. Genesis is dead. Uthgard is dead. Mythic is dead.

Advantages of 5 man limit:

Easier to fill and refill
Easier to fight against for solo/small man
Easier to have more individual impact

Advantages of 8 man limit:

Easier for premade guild groups to collapse the frontier zone population.

Balance means nothing if your population is dead.

To all of those who saw the error in Mythic's ways and have my back in Advice chat everyday.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:43 AM by Takii

Sounds like you're playing the wrong game at this point buddy.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 5:01 AM by Quik

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 11:01 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 8:01 PM
You are still punishing those that make a full group just so you can try to make small mans more feasible.

I don't see why punishing 1 group just to make the game better for another group helps the game...

If small man's and soloers are not feasible all you will be left with are 8 man's and we ALL know what happens to servers when all that is left is that. (Hint: They die!)

The issue should NOT be to get rid of 8man just because you want solo/small man. nor should we get rid of solo/small man just to keep 8man.

Stop trying to ruin the game for others just to make it fun for yourself, and start trying to make something work for everyone.

The game has survived for many years, now we just need to keep up with the QOL changes to help everyone, but trying to kill the game for people who enjoy the 8man side of it is incredibly and purely selfish.

Dev's have done a lot of good changes, lets get ideas to fix this and not screw some people just to make others happy.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:58 AM by schreon

Hey Quik,

I'm feeling slightly offended by your assumption that this suggestion is based on a selfish attitude.

This is about server population, demographics and the behavior of pvp groups. It is also based on observations in the past where server populations died repeatedly from the same fate.

I am a passionate 8man player myself, but I clearly see that people don't return after we steamroll their 5man multiple times. Plus I experience the same from the other perspective, especially when running with smallman PUGs. Especially during off-times. I wonder how that is supposed to be selfish.

Especially as I added a suggestion for establishing a dedicated 8man area, I don't understand that assumption. An 8man area, possibly with an FFA setting so you can also fight groups of your own realm there. I am wondering how that is taking away anything from anybody.

On the contrary, I believe it is rather selfish of people insisting on pure 8man dominance to expect other players to be driven away or being farmed without a chance due to being outnumbered.

Sure, you could also add smallman battlegrounds for level 50s with an adequate group size cap. But that would condradict the importance of not fragmenting the server population. Splitting off the elite 8man game from the rest of the game seems to be the best compromise. At least in my eyes.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 8:24 AM by Tienef

schreon wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 4:01 PM
Hi there,

in order to make the open RvR world a vivid place where people can go without optimizing for weeks and waiting for an 8man or a zerg to gather, impose a group size limit smaller than 8.

This post relates to the somewhat buried posts of Zansobar and defiasbandit:

https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1801&p=9894#p9878

(optional) In order to always enable the classic 8man fights most of us remember and love, add an extra 8man zone as compensation. ( for example cathal or another BG )

(optional) Make the group size limit adaptive depending on server population. So the group size limit would automatically adapt from minimum 3 to maximum 6 or so.

While I like the idea of trying to make this server attractive both for casuals and hc players, first problem I see to this change is it would go against what it was created for : groups would be even harder to form. The obvious bottleneck being the speed classes.
e.g. if 80 hib players want to rvr, you need at least 10 bards. While if the group size limit is 5 you will need 16.
Sure, some groups could run with chanter/warden speed, but they would be food for the other realms.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 10:27 AM by Kaziera

Abother Problem is for the need of certain tools absoluteley neceasary for a grp. E.g. aoe mez, spec buff, heals, speed, mana and endo regens, interrupts, celerity and so forth. To get all this you need in alb 3 mins sorc cleric. Hib 2 druid and bard mid 4. Skald shaman pac and aug healer. Trispec healer is just subpar.

It would just mess up the caracter Distribution. Also it would be increasingly difficult for several classes. In a 5 man you dont run 2 main healers. So all healing will be done by one class. This leads to increased strain on those even rare played classes. Have fun finding bards druids healers and clerics after this goes live.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 10:47 AM by Ceen

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 10:27 AM
Abother Problem is for the need of certain tools absoluteley neceasary for a grp. E.g. aoe mez, spec buff, heals, speed, mana and endo regens, interrupts, celerity and so forth. To get all this you need in alb 3 mins sorc cleric. Hib 2 druid and bard mid 4. Skald shaman pac and aug healer. Trispec healer is just subpar.

It would just mess up the caracter Distribution. Also it would be increasingly difficult for several classes. In a 5 man you dont run 2 main healers. So all healing will be done by one class. This leads to increased strain on those even rare played classes. Have fun finding bards druids healers and clerics after this goes live.

I guess you are mid and talking mid weaker than it is? Your enumeration is quite funny ^^

Thu 30 Aug 2018 10:48 AM by Kaziera

Im alb

Thu 30 Aug 2018 11:14 AM by Woodspryte

This is a bad idea. Lowering the group cap would do nothing to help. Group cap is set at 8... I'm willing to wager you have seen more than 8 of 1 realm run together. People will run together if they feel it benefits them regardless of what the group size is. I still remember when TOA launched CTR was basically a +1 to group size at least.

If someone is small manning and they get ran over by an 8, instead of logging off just find a new hunting area.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 12:26 PM by aso

Would bring lot more action in game but as I said
Most Ppl want to outnumber because they fail against same numbers

Thu 30 Aug 2018 12:45 PM by Kaziera

aso wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 12:26 PM
Would bring lot more action in game but as I said
Most Ppl want to outnumber because they fail against same numbers

This is pure provokative nonsense.

In off times it comes down to how many ppl that you want to play with are online. If the enemy outnumber you, invite more ppl. If needed strangers.

At prime time grps are full. No matter zerg or 8man

Thu 30 Aug 2018 2:22 PM by aso

most ppl in this forum are only-8-man-players
its useless to talk with them, the sad thing they are more then the smallman players so smallman opinions get zerged by this only-8man-players the same way as they zerg and outnumber in game
this only 8man players dont understand the pov from a smallman player

i dont have time to build 8mans and care about setups, i got 4 daoc friends, and i just play with them
one of us got a statue in capital city on live, and we also reached the 3rd place on 5v5 live tournament
most of the time we are not online at same time so 8man is not an option

if we get outnumbered all the time, we log off

Thu 30 Aug 2018 2:57 PM by Kaziera

[Removed for personal insult]

Well maybe its in this rare case not the server that needs to change, maybe its you and your playerpool bias. The reasoning "i dont want to change i want evrything else to change" is no reasoning. Its lazyness.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:04 PM by Aincrad

aso wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 2:22 PM
most ppl in this forum are only-8-man-players
its useless to talk with them, the sad thing they are more then the smallman players so smallman opinions get zerged by this only-8man-players the same way as they zerg and outnumber in game
this only 8man players dont understand the pov from a smallman player

i dont have time to build 8mans and care about setups, i got 4 daoc friends, and i just play with them
one of us got a statue in capital city on live, and we also reached the 3rd place on 5v5 live tournament
most of the time we are not online at same time so 8man is not an option

if we get outnumbered all the time, we log off

Not sure how true that is regarding most people on this forum are only 8 man players. That's your assumption. I am not an 8 man player and only small man with my bros (4 of us all together) so I definitely understand the pov from smallman player. We get outnumbered all the time and die a ton, but you know what that's part of the game. We deal with it and still have fun playing.

I think this change would have a HUGE impact on the game and gameplay itself. It would also only get good for people who like to small man. This would be an unnecessary custom change imo and group size limit should stay as it. However, that is not my decision to make.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 6:04 PM by Quik

schreon wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:58 AM
Hey Quik,

I'm feeling slightly offended by your assumption that this suggestion is based on a selfish attitude.

This is about server population, demographics and the behavior of pvp groups. It is also based on observations in the past where server populations died repeatedly from the same fate.

I am a passionate 8man player myself, but I clearly see that people don't return after we steamroll their 5man multiple times. Plus I experience the same from the other perspective, especially when running with smallman PUGs. Especially during off-times. I wonder how that is supposed to be selfish.

Especially as I added a suggestion for establishing a dedicated 8man area, I don't understand that assumption. An 8man area, possibly with an FFA setting so you can also fight groups of your own realm there. I am wondering how that is taking away anything from anybody.

On the contrary, I believe it is rather selfish of people insisting on pure 8man dominance to expect other players to be driven away or being farmed without a chance due to being outnumbered.

Sure, you could also add smallman battlegrounds for level 50s with an adequate group size cap. But that would condradict the importance of not fragmenting the server population. Splitting off the elite 8man game from the rest of the game seems to be the best compromise. At least in my eyes.

It is selfish though. We are talking about beta here. Low numbers will stay here in beta and when it goes to live we will have 2k+ and I am guessing closer to 3k+.

People wanting to limit groups to small man is based on low population at best, and just a desire to be able to only run small mans at worst.

If after the server goes live and drops to 1000 it could be a different argument, but want to kill what the game was originally designed for, and what a LOT of people in the game enjoy the most just so small mans can be bigger, is selfish. It has no valid argument at this point based on what COULD happen.

We should not be talking about killing the 8man, but rather how to help the small man or solo aspects. If you have to kill 1 segment to help another, how exactly is that fair? I understand solo/small mans want to be able to do more, but it is a core part of the game.

I will say this. If you reduce group size to 5man, I will bet you will lose half of your population or more. There are not enough people who WANT to solo or small man to make the server thrive. A good chunk of the population WANTS to be able to 8man because that gives them the best class selection and in their minds the best chance to win.

Aso is not wrong when he says a lot of people roll 8mans just because they hope to be able to win more because they are afraid of running against another small man made up of skilled players. 8Man allows them to add a few people and hopefully balance the playing field. Why do you think zergs were enjoyed by so many? It was their chance to get into a huge group and hope that others could make up for their lack of skill.

You don't see a lot of skilled players trying to get a zerg going except in a few cases. Generally the zerg is made up of maybe a couple skilled putting it together but then filled with people who may not normally go out. Most skilled players will be making their group and doing what they want, whether it is maybe taking on the challenge of trying to derail a zerg or just roaming.

I don't say this as a skilled player, I say this as a middle of the road player in this game who just happens to have more knowledge than a lot, but not nearly as much as some.

Again, any time you want to kill off 1 group of players to help another group of players, that either comes out of necessity (the server will have more than enough people to sustain 8mans when it goes live) or just selfish (someone just doesn't want 8mans).

If you want to truly help the game you would be looking for solutions to help EVERYONE, not alienate the group you don't like to help the group you do.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 6:48 PM by Takii

aso wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 2:22 PM
most ppl in this forum are only-8-man-players
its useless to talk with them, the sad thing they are more then the smallman players so smallman opinions get zerged by this only-8man-players the same way as they zerg and outnumber in game
this only 8man players dont understand the pov from a smallman player

i dont have time to build 8mans and care about setups, i got 4 daoc friends, and i just play with them
one of us got a statue in capital city on live, and we also reached the 3rd place on 5v5 live tournament
most of the time we are not online at same time so 8man is not an option

if we get outnumbered all the time, we log off

Invite 3 more people to your group?

I don't know what to tell you. You're literally complaining that the game is not designed around your group of friends.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 1:48 PM by Woodspryte

aso wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 2:22 PM
most ppl in this forum are only-8-man-players
its useless to talk with them, the sad thing they are more then the smallman players so smallman opinions get zerged by this only-8man-players the same way as they zerg and outnumber in game
this only 8man players dont understand the pov from a smallman player

i dont have time to build 8mans and care about setups, i got 4 daoc friends, and i just play with them
one of us got a statue in capital city on live, and we also reached the 3rd place on 5v5 live tournament
most of the time we are not online at same time so 8man is not an option

if we get outnumbered all the time, we log off

/rant on

The 8manners have just as much right to their playstyle as do the zergers/small manners/zoloers/PvE/griefers etc etc etc.

You don't have time to build 8mans? Just /invite it doesn't take long.
You just play with your friends? That sounds like an issue with you and not with the game.
Most of the time you and your friends aren't on at the same time? So they should lower the group limit to meet what you would need when they are on...

None of these arguments for a smaller group limit bring any valid points, its just a cater to me whine.

One of you got a statue in the city on live... grats? I got my picture on the dartboard at Mythic headquarters.
Grats again on partaking in a Pendragon tourney where majority of the population didn't play.
Talking about how "good" you or your friends are doesn't make your rant any more valid, it makes it worse honestly. If a player is good and knowledgeable at the game/their class they don't have to tell people how good they are, people already know and usually go for their input.

"if we get outnumbered all the time, we log off" - That just screams "We can't compete". If you get outnumbered constantly switch zones, pick better routes to run, or better yet get better as a group and hunt the larger groups.

/rant off

Sat 1 Sep 2018 1:59 PM by Ganaka

I think lowering the max group size to 5 or 6 would benefit the server in the long run.

Side note: What's up with all the insults? I barely made it through the thread. Calling 8-manners holier-than-thou snobs or calling the casuals lazy leeches doesn't help make this server better. Do y'all talk to other people face to face like that in every day life? I bet not...

Sat 1 Sep 2018 2:26 PM by aso

Woodspryte wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Sep 2018 1:48 PM
aso wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 2:22 PM
most ppl in this forum are only-8-man-players
its useless to talk with them, the sad thing they are more then the smallman players so smallman opinions get zerged by this only-8man-players the same way as they zerg and outnumber in game
this only 8man players dont understand the pov from a smallman player

i dont have time to build 8mans and care about setups, i got 4 daoc friends, and i just play with them
one of us got a statue in capital city on live, and we also reached the 3rd place on 5v5 live tournament
most of the time we are not online at same time so 8man is not an option

if we get outnumbered all the time, we log off

/rant on

The 8manners have just as much right to their playstyle as do the zergers/small manners/zoloers/PvE/griefers etc etc etc.

You don't have time to build 8mans? Just /invite it doesn't take long.
You just play with your friends? That sounds like an issue with you and not with the game.
Most of the time you and your friends aren't on at the same time? So they should lower the group limit to meet what you would need when they are on...

None of these arguments for a smaller group limit bring any valid points, its just a cater to me whine.

One of you got a statue in the city on live... grats? I got my picture on the dartboard at Mythic headquarters.
Grats again on partaking in a Pendragon tourney where majority of the population didn't play.
Talking about how "good" you or your friends are doesn't make your rant any more valid, it makes it worse honestly. If a player is good and knowledgeable at the game/their class they don't have to tell people how good they are, people already know and usually go for their input.

"if we get outnumbered all the time, we log off" - That just screams "We can't compete". If you get outnumbered constantly switch zones, pick better routes to run, or better yet get better as a group and hunt the larger groups.

/rant off

Not true.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 2:32 PM by rubaduck

aso wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 2:22 PM
most ppl in this forum are only-8-man-players
its useless to talk with them, the sad thing they are more then the smallman players so smallman opinions get zerged by this only-8man-players the same way as they zerg and outnumber in game
this only 8man players dont understand the pov from a smallman player

i dont have time to build 8mans and care about setups, i got 4 daoc friends, and i just play with them
one of us got a statue in capital city on live, and we also reached the 3rd place on 5v5 live tournament
most of the time we are not online at same time so 8man is not an option

if we get outnumbered all the time, we log off

So much wrong with this comment. It's useless to talk with 8 man players? Why and how exactly. Most of us do smallman, and love smallmanning as well. It seems to me like you have a problem talking with those who are doing 8 man. Looking through your posts, you only advocate for smallman, while most 8 man (that I know of) players absolutely love the best from two worlds. However, you are mostly trying to limit the gameplay of 8 man players, which I can understand infuriates them. We play ball, you don't.

You don't have time to build and care about 8 man setup and you only have 4 daoc friends? Seems like you're the problem here and not everyone else. What about making new friends, playing pugs and team up with more random players. Or are you saying you are too good for that, or above it and that we who make friends with randoms in daoc is beneath you? Your arguments here are so easy to read in to.

Who cares if one has a statue on live, and how does that contribute to the discussion about reducing the group size? I see you're fishing with some bragging rights as the bait but honestly who do you cater to really, appart from yourself? Good for you and your 4 friends who won a 5v5 tournament, really I honestly mean that but how does it add to this discussion, other then again, bragging rights?

Don't get me wrong, I don't try to be salty but you make it hard for me to not be when you're at an egotistical point of view, every time you post about this issue.