[Q2 2020] Style Changes - Phoenix Freeshard

This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=99782

Style Chains:
Style chains will be reduced to a max length of 2, that means there will only be styles with direct follow ups, never follow ups with further follow ups. This is primarily due to our streak avoidance making larger chains even harder than they would be anyways.
The "left over" styles will either become their own chain or be added onto other styles as a follow up.
Iconic attributes of chains will remain, for example the valewalker side stun will have the ae dd style as a follow up.

Style Damage Scaling
There are many nonsensical inconsistencies between the different styles in terms of damage. This will be fixed resulting in a hopefully intuitive damage scale:
reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer
That means that reactive follow ups do more damage than side follow ups which do more damage than reactive opener which do more than back follow ups etc.

Bleeds
This part is still being discussed and it's likely that there could be a couple tests to see how it plays out. Bleeds are utterly pointless in the current game, in the original game their only justification was against epic bosses when doing them in small groups (melee hits hitting for 1 damage and bleed doing 25), however even this niche use case doesn't apply anymore.
Feedback here is welcome, so far a likely test candidate would be this: Bleed value is increased and bleeds will stack.

Some "Fairness" Changes
Still actively discussed on the exact extend of this change, general gist is that there are mirror spec lines in the different realms with differences for the sake of having some difference. Part of it will be that SBs will receive some form of reactive stun that is not a follow up.
This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:00 PM by Sathariel

Better not touch my Leviathan.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:02 PM by Shadowkill

you wanna really kill your serv "classic" becoming "custom" serv...

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:03 PM by inoeth

hopefully there will be some sort of useable ASR for hunters

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:07 PM by majky666

Look at it from the bright side, we can make more free space on our HDDs :-)

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:07 PM by spyderz33

Don't like this.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:14 PM by Ashenspire

There are clear inconsistencies across the realms (CD rear snare being the biggest culprit) as well as some to hit bonuses that are out of whack (Hammer rear snare, DW Flank, etc) that could also use a looking into.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:19 PM by Delegator

Re: Bleed values

How about having them scale with the attack's damage? Having them be an absolute number just doesn't work. Either they are too powerful at low levels or useless at high levels.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:23 PM by MyCatKevin

Sathariel wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:00 PM
Better not touch my Leviathan.

Sure levi is nice, but Cobra is going to become wild with this change if it goes through as currently stated.

It'll likely be the 2nd style of a chain, but it'll hit as hard (if not harder because of resist holes) as levi and give you 100% of that proc damage back as health.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:24 PM by Razur Ur

We dont need changes at styles but only what we need is increase the base dmg from all meeles except VW and Savage!

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:24 PM by Forlornhope

MyCatKevin wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:23 PM
Sathariel wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:00 PM
Better not touch my Leviathan.

Sure levi is nice, but Cobra is going to become wild with this change if it goes through as currently stated.

It'll likely be the 2nd style of a chain, but it'll hit as hard (if not harder because of resist holes) as levi and give you 100% of that proc damage back as health.

Which is ridiculous and really shouldn't be a thing lol

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:25 PM by joy

Looking at what is proposed.

This helps Valewalkers greatly, as landing that third style is so hard right now, but this should lead to greatly reduced damage from the proc!

Your damage scale rating is out of whack for side and back.
On this server with how it is now, landing a side style is 10 times easier then landing a back style !
You should really take that into consideration; the arc for back is dismal compared to side, and you can still 'chaise' someone and only do sidestyles because of it.

Be very careful with adding bleeds to assassins, there was a reason Dual Shadows had to be tuned down !

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:29 PM by Norad

I hope things like the VW ae dd on 2nd style will be lowered delve now. With new changes you have to think of the impact that they will be able to get the style off 2-3 times during a slammed target making their DPS a lot higher. Growth rates will need to be lowered also if it's easier to get those off.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:37 PM by

gruenesschaf

joy wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:25 PM
Looking at what is proposed.

This helps Valewalkers greatly, as landing that third style is so hard right now, but this should lead to greatly reduced damage from the proc!

Your damage scale rating is out of whack for side and back.
On this server with how it is now, landing a side style is 10 times easier then landing a back style !
You should really take that into consideration; the arc for back is dismal compared to side, and you can still 'chaise' someone and only do sidestyles because of it.

Be very careful with adding bleeds to assassins, there was a reason Dual Shadows had to be tuned down !

Making side and back the same for damage purposes is also an option, so is a small arc adjustment. The main driver here are some really wonky styles like follow up styles that have a lower growth rate than some anytimer or reactive styles doing less damage than anytimer.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:50 PM by Ashman

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
general gist is that there are mirror spec lines in the different realms with differences for the sake of having some difference.
This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.

part of the reason i stopped playing live coming to phoenix, nice

dont forget to give shieldspec to savages

also i assume hero/champ get the midgard side and backsnare on 1h and 2h lines?
for the sake of fairness of course

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:53 PM by Isavyr

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:14 PM
There are clear inconsistencies across the realms (CD rear snare being the biggest culprit) as well as some to hit bonuses that are out of whack (Hammer rear snare, DW Flank, etc) that could also use a looking into.

I think the melee snare-style situation is reasonable. Armsman get unique anytime. Albion Twohander gets side and rear snare. Hibernia gets side snares in general weapons. Hibernia DW gets rear snare. Midgard gets a rear snare (best case) in general weaponry, but a hit malus.

If Midgard were to receive a hit bonus to their general weaponry rear-snare, it would make them even more ideal, given that all their melee users would receive it.

I do welcome bleeds being either thrown away or a mixture of being moved to special styles where the added damage warrants the risk to RvR. Or could make them a PVE thing that stacks, too.

I'm a player of all three realms and I like the differences in the realm styles, but there are some minor tweaks that I'd approve of (bleed being removed from CD side chain, bleed removed from zerker back chain, mercenary, etc)

Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:57 PM by Razur Ur

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:37 PM
joy wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:25 PM
Looking at what is proposed.

This helps Valewalkers greatly, as landing that third style is so hard right now, but this should lead to greatly reduced damage from the proc!

Your damage scale rating is out of whack for side and back.
On this server with how it is now, landing a side style is 10 times easier then landing a back style !
You should really take that into consideration; the arc for back is dismal compared to side, and you can still 'chaise' someone and only do sidestyles because of it.

Be very careful with adding bleeds to assassins, there was a reason Dual Shadows had to be tuned down !

Making side and back the same for damage purposes is also an option, so is a small arc adjustment. The main driver here are some really wonky styles like follow up styles that have a lower growth rate than some anytimer or reactive styles doing less damage than anytimer.

You cannot back and side style compare! you have with back style 25% chance to hit and with side style a chance from 50% to hit if the enemy funny strafing.

And why givent at hibernia Large Weapon a side or back snare? only side snare with 10 blade spec is joke!

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:10 PM by exveer

I confess, most of this post makes me nervous. But you've done a good job at balance so far, so I'm willing to put faith there.

However, balance aside, I really hate the idea of trying to make the 3 realms more 'same'. The best thing of DAoC is that the classes are NOT the same, even classes within the same archetype -- BM vs Zerker vs Mercenary -- are different. And if that means that SB's don't have Dragonfang, that's part of the deal of being a Shadowblade.

That said, bold moves and ideas!

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:14 PM by Norad

One thing about bleed is that doing bleed styles is actually a noob trap that many people do, they will use full bm side chain on first target they attack causing the bleed to break up any follow up back snares they are doing to the target. Where the better bms will only do the first side style and hold off on doing the full chain till they think they have a kill threat on a target. Removing bleeds or just making it so they dont break cc could help casuals more.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:14 PM by joy

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:37 PM
Making side and back the same for damage purposes is also an option, so is a small arc adjustment. The main driver here are some really wonky styles like follow up styles that have a lower growth rate than some anytimer or reactive styles doing less damage than anytimer.

I see that.
Reactives have almost no place right now, and that is a shame.
Some positionals also have rather low value because how the GR are right now.
Having back and side weighted equally would lead to a more situational use, not like now for savages, 90% side.

I'm not entirely sure how you want to weigh GR against spec level required for a style, but that should be a thing for sure.
Currently you might find some level 8 positional styles have higher GR then level 39 positionals.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:14 PM by inoeth

im looking forward to all the items i get when the qqers leave

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:37 PM by Tritri

I mean...

What the fuck ?

Who asked for this ?

Who think normalizing damage like "reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer" is actually a good idea ?
Who ??

What the f... ?

What ... ?

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:39 PM by MrWolf

Tritri wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:37 PM
I mean...

What the fuck ?

Who asked for this ?

Who think normalizing damage like "reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer" is actually a good idea ?
Who ??

What the f... ?

What ... ?

anyone with opposing thumb that is capable to push more than one key spamming the high damage anytimer probably

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:41 PM by Jona

Sounds like good ideas for changes. Makes it much more intuitive to figure out which styles to prioritize and gets rid of annoying follow-up chains. As for the people complaining about strong effects on some current styles, I'm pretty sure they will be rebalanced in some way.

Gonna be interesting to see what you come up with concerning bleeds. Currently they pretty much just seem to render some styles unusable in certain situations and I wouldn't really mind seeing them removed entirely. But maybe there's a cool way to change them and make them worthwhile without just being cc breakers.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:49 PM by Tritri

MrWolf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:39 PM
anyone with opposing thumb that is capable to push more than one key spamming the high damage anytimer probably

I don't know if that a sorry attempt for an attack but you clrealy don't know how I play, plus I don't play zerk lol

Anyway, this is not the point

And yeah, Berzerker should have a mindless anytime that deals crap ton of damage... they are berzerker, what do you picture in your mind when you talk about "Berzerker" ?

I understand some tweaks needs to be done to some classes, notably valewalker, but normalizing everything is... well it's just not Dark Age of Camelot...

Asymetrical realm is what makes this game great

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:59 PM by Sepplord

Not really sure about the changes, but if done well and every style individually looked at instead of automating the changes according to a system it can work out and be an improvement

I heavily disagree on the side > back sequence though... sidestyles are so easy to land on phoenix, so easy that some jokingly call them anytimes

Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:02 PM by sylvynyr

So when is the time to stop calling this a DAOC server? Let alone a classic DAOC server? Changing a default mechanic of melee style combat by removing all multipart chains over 2?

Sounds terrible.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:09 PM by Centenario

First Impressions Feedback

Style Chains:
I think to have style chains limited to 2 is good, since 3rd style is never used except maybe for the critical strike chains. It is also too many buttons to have on the bars for low usage. I am not familiar with streak avoidance so I can't comment on that. However, I have noticed that you cannot use more than one reactionary style when your attack speed is quick:
Mob attacks you:
You evade
- Use On-evade Style (Success)
- Use On evade Style (Fail)
Mob attacks you

Is it normal or a bug? I haven't seen any notice even in Miscellaneous about this.

Style Damage Scaling:
I know that some style growth are not correct, but they are exceptions.
I am not sure that "reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer" is correct.
A tank who has a back style should have a higher growth than a dps with a backstyle, since the tank has to face its enemies. That is why they have different weapon lines (dual wield vs two-handed or polearm) it is also why these special lines have higher growth rates overall than basics (thrust/sword/slash). Also mid does not have special lines because they have one line for all (sword for 1H and 2H).
I think all the growth rate have to be studied with a little more details than just "reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer"

Bleeds:
Bleeds are just fillers while leveling, they shouldnt be used in RvR because they will break CCs.
If we compare them to dots they do horrible damage in comparison.
Lets take for example 50 DW style Dual Shadows, which does 25 damage every 4 seconds for 40seconds or around 200 damage in 40 seconds with resists. If we consider that melee fights last maximum 20 seconds thats instead maybe 100 damage due to bleed, which is equivalent to a lvl 7 spec dot. In my opinion all bleeds should be put on a maximum length of 20seconds and should have a maximum of 6 ticks. I would change the Dual Shadows style to do 50 bleed damage every 5 seconds for 20 seconds, with a 20second immune, not-stackable but cummulative with spell dots and poisons but overwritable.
Land style: deal style damage and apply bleed (zero bleed damage at application)
5seconds then deal extra 50 damage (not break snare, or root, only break mezz).
at 20seconds deals the last 50 damage. Each tick should be reduced by body resist. Non-blood mobs are immune to bleed.
At the end of any duel all dot damage is removed.
Overall, I am open to creative changes with bleed, they are way too underdog mechanic.

Some Fairness Changes:
Specific example of SB is a double-edged sword, cause they have other advantages.
The main issue for melee is the snare style:
Midgard:
29 hammer (good for composite) back style (almost an anytime for RvR) for 23seconds!
Albion:
3rd chain crush style for a 21 second snare at 39skill (ok for composite)
Polearm side style at 4 skill
2nd chain thrust style at 44 style (bad for composite)
side style at 21 slash for only 12second snare
side style at 15 2h for 14sec snare
Hibernia:
Side blade at 10 skill for 14sec
2nd chain (of sidestyle) blunt at 21 for 19second snare
side style at 21 pierce for 15 second snare
spear lvl 6 back style 11 second snare
21 large weapon front style for 19 seconds
Overall we can see that there are discrepancies between alb and hib and mid is largely overpowered with melee snares. Havent looked at dualwield styles and flex styles and left-axe styles...
If we go down that road of making fairness changes it will be an endless discussions, even with just styles.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:29 PM by FUINY7

feel like all dev are tank player and probably on hib too

Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:40 PM by MyCatKevin

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:24 PM
MyCatKevin wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:23 PM
Sathariel wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:00 PM
Better not touch my Leviathan.

Sure levi is nice, but Cobra is going to become wild with this change if it goes through as currently stated.

It'll likely be the 2nd style of a chain, but it'll hit as hard (if not harder because of resist holes) as levi and give you 100% of that proc damage back as health.

Which is ridiculous and really shouldn't be a thing lol

Agreed. Although I'd enjoy this for my reaver - I do think the LT could stay at 100% of value, but the proc damage be significantly reduced.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:44 PM by Freedomcall

These looks really dangerous... I'm pretty sure these will cause new balance issues.
But I'll save my breath until there is any precise details regarding these changes.

But one thing i want to mention: Bleeding

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Bleeds
Bleeds are utterly pointless in the current game.

This is not true in terms of 1v1, especially for Infil/merc.
Smart infils/merc has already taken advantage by maximizing bleed effects, and ppl already know how OP it is.
In fact, every bleed effect helps in 1v1.

In grp point of view?
Players still won't used bleed styles even if you double, triple the damage because the reason is so simple: it breaks CC.
If you want players to use bleed effect styles, you should rather change the mechanism so that bleeds won't affect CC.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:58 PM by Drakonal

Add critical %chance or damage multipliers for bleeds. You sacrifice CC capability for a duration of time to increase damage from the user of the bleed or all physical damage sources.

Essentially bleeds could be used as debuff mechanic for melee damage.

Edit: bleeds could be used to close the gap on critical %chance like stoicism closes the gap for determination.

So for example mastery of pain 9 only gives you 30% crit chance. A bleed style ( depending on the style level) further increase critical %hit chance by 25% from all physical damage sources.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:22 PM by jwalker

We will then see a lot of changes to the style lines and that WILL cause buffs to some classes /lines. Is that really a good idea?

Further, the "equalizing" part is the worst idea, as it sounds like the devs want to make LA and DW equally good in style utility as CD. However, looking at the to hit and damage options that both other realms have due to the superior base weapons lines this will be really bad. Or will you also give Hib blademaster, Ns and Ranger an equivalent for the very high to hit bonus Diamond slash, the stun hammer chain of albion, duel shadow (anytimer like in duel), Doublefrost, Provoke, 21% anytime dehaste in Axt or Havok combo?

Will that further buff the friars staff line? Critical strike line? Is it needed?

If anything I'd have a look at some styles too hit bonus. Too many potential useful styles have no oder low to hit bonus. A second in line style with good growth rate but no to hit bonus is basically a very low damage style once you count the 10% miss chance into the average damage. This is even more true for combo styles. Make combo styles have high to hit bonus but otherwise leave them be. Many crappy styles can instantly improved with adding high to hit bonus even if the growth is a bit lower then the "low to hit" anytimer.

@bleeds: I like the %-Idea someone mentioned. Then lower the time for bleeds to work to 12 seconds. Something like 10%, 20%, 30% and 40% of the damage dealth with the main hand is dealth as additional bleed damage over the next 12 seconds (which means if you spam it's a lot less damage)

Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:19 PM by bigne88

LOL LOL LOL

only good thing is change bleed.

make it to dont break CC.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:35 PM by sylvynyr

All this and still....

Creeping Death causes a Stun
Stunning Stab causes a Bleed

o_O

Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:36 PM by thirian24

jwalker wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:22 PM
We will then see a lot of changes to the style lines and that WILL cause buffs to some classes /lines. Is that really a good idea?

Further, the "equalizing" part is the worst idea, as it sounds like the devs want to make LA and DW equally good in style utility as CD. However, looking at the to hit and damage options that both other realms have due to the superior base weapons lines this will be really bad. Or will you also give Hib blademaster, Ns and Ranger an equivalent for the very high to hit bonus Diamond slash, the stun hammer chain of albion, duel shadow (anytimer like in duel), Doublefrost, Provoke, 21% anytime dehaste in Axt or Havok combo?

Will that further buff the friars staff line? Critical strike line? Is it needed?

If anything I'd have a look at some styles too hit bonus. Too many potential useful styles have no oder low to hit bonus. A second in line style with good growth rate but no to hit bonus is basically a very low damage style once you count the 10% miss chance into the average damage. This is even more true for combo styles. Make combo styles have high to hit bonus but otherwise leave them be. Many crappy styles can instantly improved with adding high to hit bonus even if the growth is a bit lower then the "low to hit" anytimer.

This! ^^^

Many many classes have unique styles that do various things. So are we ALL gonna have access to ALL of those styles?? If you're gonna give out CD styles in "fairness" the. Give everyone the same shit. Give me crippling blow on my BM. Give me Dual Shadows. Give me a 1 off anytime ASR debuff.

This fairness crap is wild.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:37 PM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=99782

Style Chains:
Style chains will be reduced to a max length of 2, that means there will only be styles with direct follow ups, never follow ups with further follow ups. This is primarily due to our streak avoidance making larger chains even harder than they would be anyways.
The "left over" styles will either become their own chain or be added onto other styles as a follow up.
Iconic attributes of chains will remain, for example the valewalker side stun will have the ae dd style as a follow up.

Style Damage Scaling
There are many nonsensical inconsistencies between the different styles in terms of damage. This will be fixed resulting in a hopefully intuitive damage scale:
reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer
That means that reactive follow ups do more damage than side follow ups which do more damage than reactive opener which do more than back follow ups etc.

Bleeds
This part is still being discussed and it's likely that there could be a couple tests to see how it plays out. Bleeds are utterly pointless in the current game, in the original game their only justification was against epic bosses when doing them in small groups (melee hits hitting for 1 damage and bleed doing 25), however even this niche use case doesn't apply anymore.
Feedback here is welcome, so far a likely test candidate would be this: Bleed value is increased and bleeds will stack.

Some "Fairness" Changes
Still actively discussed on the exact extend of this change, general gist is that there are mirror spec lines in the different realms with differences for the sake of having some difference. Part of it will be that SBs will receive some form of reactive stun that is not a follow up.
This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.

Stop diddling with the goddamn code dude. Put your hands in your pockets and walk away.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:38 PM by Eckso

Drakonal wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:58 PM
Add critical %chance or damage multipliers for bleeds. You sacrifice CC capability for a duration of time to increase damage from the user of the bleed or all physical damage sources.

Essentially bleeds could be used as debuff mechanic for melee damage.

Edit: bleeds could be used to close the gap on critical %chance like stoicism closes the gap for determination.

So for example mastery of pain 9 only gives you 30% crit chance. A bleed style ( depending on the style level) further increase critical %hit chance by 25% from all physical damage sources.

I agree with this sentiment. I think bleeds are a good thing, though the amounts of damage are negligible at level 50 and could use some tweaking.

A cool idea could be if your target is bleeding, they take X% amount additional damage, and if bleeds stack, the damage bonus should stack.

It would offer at least for Sneaks, a way of defeating tank classes in a duel for example. High rank warriors and paladins are a bitch to kill, even if I blow it all. Purge stuns, Damage add charge or strength con debuff, bleeds, viper, etc

It doesn’t quite get the job done since they get access to mastery of blocking/parrying and we don’t get dodger.

Whatever route they take if changes are made, im all for it.
Though if we make additions, then we should also make concessions. Balance is important.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:38 PM by thirian24

Also, like it was said above, bleeds for 1v1 fights, namely assassins, is HUGE!

If bleeds weren't important to those people, then Dual Shadows bleed wouldn't have been nerfed.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:46 PM by Cadebrennus

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:38 PM
Also, like it was said above, bleeds for 1v1 fights, namely assassins, is HUGE!

If bleeds weren't important to those people, then Dual Shadows bleed wouldn't have been nerfed.

Assassins weren't meant to defeat Tanks. The only time that occurred on live was after (literal) years and years of whining loudly on the forums by Assassin players.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:53 PM by easytoremember

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Style Chains:
Style chains will be reduced to a max length of 2, that means there will only be styles with direct follow ups, never follow ups with further follow ups. This is primarily due to our streak avoidance making larger chains even harder than they would be anyways.
The "left over" styles will either become their own chain or be added onto other styles as a follow up.
Iconic attributes of chains will remain, for example the valewalker side stun will have the ae dd style as a follow up.

Yes please

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Style Damage Scaling
There are many nonsensical inconsistencies between the different styles in terms of damage. This will be fixed resulting in a hopefully intuitive damage scale:
reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer
That means that reactive follow ups do more damage than side follow ups which do more damage than reactive opener which do more than back follow ups etc.

Only in favor of boosting damage where a followup with no additional effect has smaller value, or where higher-level-than-anytimer styles are doing less damage than that anytimer. Sometimes the difference in damage is justified by endurance cost / attack/defense bonus / style effect

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Bleeds
This part is still being discussed and it's likely that there could be a couple tests to see how it plays out. Bleeds are utterly pointless in the current game, in the original game their only justification was against epic bosses when doing them in small groups (melee hits hitting for 1 damage and bleed doing 25), however even this niche use case doesn't apply anymore.
Feedback here is welcome, so far a likely test candidate would be this: Bleed value is increased and bleeds will stack.

Definitely +

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Some "Fairness" Changes
Still actively discussed on the exact extend of this change, general gist is that there are mirror spec lines in the different realms with differences for the sake of having some difference. Part of it will be that SBs will receive some form of reactive stun that is not a follow up.
This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.

Opposed to any degree of mirroring.
If say SB lacks the off-evade stun given at infil 50 thrust boost the damage of a style on SB at/near 50 in either sword or axe, but not both. The differences between realms keeps things fun

Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:53 PM by thirian24

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:46 PM
thirian24 wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:38 PM
Also, like it was said above, bleeds for 1v1 fights, namely assassins, is HUGE!

If bleeds weren't important to those people, then Dual Shadows bleed wouldn't have been nerfed.

Assassins weren't meant to defeat Tanks. The only time that occurred on live was after (literal) years and years of whining loudly on the forums by Assassin players.

Where did I ever mention anything about tanks?

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:23 PM by Eckso

I wish players would stop saying things like Assassins were never meant to kill tanks. We have long since moved from the Rock Paper Scissors idea of daoc, to more approach parity.

Players enjoy more when they win due to skill than built in mechanics, at least that’s my impression.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:52 PM by sylvynyr

Eckso wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:23 PM
I wish players would stop saying things like Assassins were never meant to kill tanks. We have long since moved from the Rock Paper Scissors idea of daoc, to more approach parity.

Players enjoy more when they win due to skill than built in mechanics, at least that’s my impression.

DAOC is/was/will be defined by its Rock Paper Scissors approach to balance and this design approach is one of the main reasons people are still playing it 20 years later.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:57 PM by Razur Ur

Nice change boosted alb caster groups more plz -_- hope the staff reliaze that they crashing the phönix server

Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:41 PM by The Skies Asunder

Changing some of the chains, growth rates, hit bonuses, ans changing bleed mechanics all sound okay to me depending on how they are done. However, fairness changes by simply making all the classes have the same styles across the realms sounds terrible. Why have unique classes at all if they are just going to have all the same things?

Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:42 PM by daytonchambers

I love the idea of bleed damage stacking, even posted an idea for this a while ago.

Just as long as there's another option for group play where you don't want to compromise CC with bleed dots

Wed 25 Mar 2020 11:00 PM by Thorgeirn

Why does everyone constantly whine and complain about stuff? This sounds fine to me. How can anyone look at bleeds and go: "Oh yeah one point of damage that sounds good. Just don't spec axe lol stupid."

Everyone is so riled up about their classic daoc experience, well then go play Uthgard and tell me how you like that. Have fun with your Nintendo 64 classic models and not a single teleporter. What is quality of life again? Sorry if you cant play your Frostalfs. "Muh nostalgia!" is NOT a good excuse for you butt heads to justify mechanics that need tweaking. This game is insanely hard to balance, and if you forgotten, its a FREE GAME. Be happy the devs do anything.

Yall need to chill. Read their posts thoroughly before you make some stupid comment. Styles need something. Why give mids the ability to spec axe or sword when 99% of the time people just go hammer? Doesn't that seem odd to you? Is there a problem with wanting to incentivize other types of gameplay? Give people options. You all cry about killing the server, when people just naturally dissipate because there isn't anything NEW TO DO.

Ooooooh they changed the NF task locations. OOOOOHHH big change, time to stick around for another 5 years with my broken spec and class. Grow up you children. Absolute reprobates.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 11:22 PM by Ele

A style overhaul in some parts sounds reasonable.
I don't have much to say about the chains, as I rarely use anything with more than two parts like hammer after parry stun on skald or the first two styles of VW's after parry chain. Changing this chains might result in more variety of styles available and used by players, and I regard diversity as something really positive and desirable.
Regarding the "fairness changes":
Some melees really lack utility, like zerks having no access to a form of stun, although zerks are in a good position anyway. VW's could really benefit from the tweaks, as their dmg can be pretty random due to low hit bonuses and long chains. The melee I can think of that really could use a new style is the merc, as he has no access to a reliable snare except for going 44 thrust and using detaunt follow up or hoping to land flank or side slicer from a wonky side arc. His counterparts have access to backsnares. Having a backsnare would help the class a lot, as it has no realy spot in the current meta which is relying on stun/snare on the often only tank, and even in tank groups, where a mercs dps is needed, not having a reliable snare style is a problem.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 12:24 AM by sylvynyr

Thorgeirn wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 11:00 PM
Why does everyone constantly whine and complain about stuff? This sounds fine to me. How can anyone look at bleeds and go: "Oh yeah one point of damage that sounds good. Just don't spec axe lol stupid."

Everyone is so riled up about their classic daoc experience, well then go play Uthgard and tell me how you like that. Have fun with your Nintendo 64 classic models and not a single teleporter. What is quality of life again? Sorry if you cant play your Frostalfs. "Muh nostalgia!" is NOT a good excuse for you butt heads to justify mechanics that need tweaking. This game is insanely hard to balance, and if you forgotten, its a FREE GAME. Be happy the devs do anything.

Yall need to chill. Read their posts thoroughly before you make some stupid comment. Styles need something. Why give mids the ability to spec axe or sword when 99% of the time people just go hammer? Doesn't that seem odd to you? Is there a problem with wanting to incentivize other types of gameplay? Give people options. You all cry about killing the server, when people just naturally dissipate because there isn't anything NEW TO DO.

Ooooooh they changed the NF task locations. OOOOOHHH big change, time to stick around for another 5 years with my broken spec and class. Grow up you children. Absolute reprobates.

Useless strawman arguments and while the game may be free to play, it takes investing time and effort into something that could disappear tomorrow with no recourse. Pretty sure most everyone here is appreciative for all the effort the admins have put into this server which is why people have differing opinions on how they would like to see it maintain and/or evolve. We all play this server because we have varying levels of affinity for DAOC. Otherwise, why are you playing a 20 year old game?

Not saying anything is accepting whatever happens. Speaking up at least grants a chance to maintain and/or improve either way it goes.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 1:48 AM by gotwqqd

Get rid of your random “fix” and let it be random.

I agree about bleeds

Thu 26 Mar 2020 7:22 AM by Vendetta

If you go through with this, you will completely break Assassins...

Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:09 AM by Arthoras

The style system is the aspect that is the most fun for me in Daoc, and the point where every other MMO never do the same things. Positionals, reactionals, followups, followups of followups... that is the reason why melee is intresting. i am a bit concerned that a change will break the fun in it... i play the styles for nearly 20 years now and never had the feeling that the need an improvement.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:09 AM by Idra

The thing to do is to remove or hardly reduce stun on dual celtic or scythe style as soon as it is a 1st hit on a positionnal and totally straff abused by all BM/ranger/VW.
Take a look at every hib fight and you will see that they all try to land (and are able) thoses stuns. This is a mechanic abuse !
For example (i would talk about what i know more) Alb got stun on 2nd style after parry for dual wielder, 2nd style after block on slash (5 sec),2nd style after side on 2hd,1st after block (5sec) for flex,2nd after rear for pole...
Only mids savages have a back 1st shot stun, but only 4sec, that's not unbalancing the game as hibs does.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:29 AM by Razur Ur

Idra wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:09 AM
The thing to do is to remove or hardly reduce stun on dual celtic or scythe style as soon as it is a 1st hit on a positionnal and totally straff abused by all BM/ranger/VW.
Take a look at every hib fight and you will see that they all try to land (and are able) thoses stuns. This is a mechanic abuse !
For example (i would talk about what i know more) Alb got stun on 2nd style after parry for dual wielder, 2nd style after block on slash (5 sec),2nd style after side on 2hd,1st after block (5sec) for flex,2nd after rear for pole...
Only mids savages have a back 1st shot stun, but only 4sec, that's not unbalancing the game as hibs does.

Wtf talking you for a bullshit? Take a class in group with shild spec 42 and you have anytimer stun 9 sec! I prefer with my champion a back snare and not this
fucking useless backstun!

Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:35 AM by Taniquetil

The 3 realm style differences give a lot of fun and texture to fights, this feels dangerous to lose, not to mention breaking hamstring chain for stealthers? That’s huge.

Balance at top level sneak play is good RN. Every class and spec has its ups and downs, and everyone can win. These changes will probably turn it in to a landslide. Currently I enjoy playing all 3 sneaks because of their different styles and strengths, making them all the same would be a travesty imo.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:55 AM by Gildar

exveer wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:10 PM
...
However, balance aside, I really hate the idea of trying to make the 3 realms more 'same'. The best thing of DAoC is that the classes are NOT the same, even classes within the same archetype -- BM vs Zerker vs Mercenary -- are different. And if that means that SB's don't have Dragonfang, that's part of the deal of being a Shadowblade.

...

This is the real reason for playing a 20 years old game.

No other games have the lore, mechanics and variety of archetypes and playstyles like DAOC. Pls dont do too many changes.
Most of people (me included) leave live for phoenix becaus here we can playClassic DAOC, not another game.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:02 AM by dearen75

To be more fair, I think is much easier if you erase all this DAOC stuff .. and rebuild everything .. make 1 healer class .. 1 tank class .. 1 melee dps class .. 1 cc class .. 1 magic dps class .. 1 assassin class .. 1 ranged dps class .. give them the same stats .. remove the buff system .. give them the same speed .. and spread this for every realm .. this should be enough FAIR
Talking seriously .. there will be always someone who'll wine about this or this .. it's part of the game .. and it's the funny part .. I appreciate that you keep working on the server and I understand that you think you are doing the right and balanced thing .. but it's not what you'll obtain.
Maybe you, like me and many others, are isolated at home and have much time free to work on the server .. use it to build events or similar things instead of rebuilding the game.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 10:01 AM by Dragonn

I hope it's an April Fool

Thu 26 Mar 2020 10:13 AM by Lollie

dearen75 wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:02 AM
To be more fair, I think is much easier if you erase all this DAOC stuff .. and rebuild everything .. make 1 healer class .. 1 tank class .. 1 melee dps class .. 1 cc class .. 1 magic dps class .. 1 assassin class .. 1 ranged dps class .. give them the same stats .. remove the buff system .. give them the same speed .. and spread this for every realm .. this should be enough FAIR
Talking seriously .. there will be always someone who'll wine about this or this .. it's part of the game .. and it's the funny part .. I appreciate that you keep working on the server and I understand that you think you are doing the right and balanced thing .. but it's not what you'll obtain.
Maybe you, like me and many others, are isolated at home and have much time free to work on the server .. use it to build events or similar things instead of rebuilding the game.

To be honest they could do that and people would still complain that the other realm is still over powered.

Other companies have 20 or so years to try and balance this game and still havent done it, leave it as it is and let people get on with it. They will moan regardless.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 12:58 PM by jwalker

Idra wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:09 AM
The thing to do is to remove or hardly reduce stun on dual celtic or scythe style as soon as it is a 1st hit on a positionnal and totally straff abused by all BM/ranger/VW.
Take a look at every hib fight and you will see that they all try to land (and are able) thoses stuns. This is a mechanic abuse !
For example (i would talk about what i know more) Alb got stun on 2nd style after parry for dual wielder, 2nd style after block on slash (5 sec),2nd style after side on 2hd,1st after block (5sec) for flex,2nd after rear for pole...
Only mids savages have a back 1st shot stun, but only 4sec, that's not unbalancing the game as hibs does.

This is really biased. So a 4 second back stun for Savage is ok but a 4 second side stun from BM is "unbalancing" ?

This leaves 3 classes with a longer stun, both Champ and Hero usually spec for slam, so who cares about backstun? On the flip side, they loose back snare, which is the reason heroes partly go spear. This leaves VW who also doesn't have a backsnare and has a unique style line.

Now what about the styles that ALB and MID have that the typical HIB melee misses?

ALB: superior anytime styles in basic lines: Amnetist - Diamond slash (both with VERY HIGH to hit bonus) , Bludgeous - Contusion (6 second stun! + med to hit), 2-Hand with great positionals snare styles, good growth rate + fantastic follow up stuns! DW has the best "duel" style with Dual shadow (med. to hit, high damage, high damage bleed)
Pole, Staff and flex are all really good but they are unique lines like Scyth, h2h, Spear so lets not compare these

MID: Again superior Anytimer to HIB: anytime dehaste in Axt, low endurance anytimer in Hammer, high to hit taunt in Sword, Havok combo is also great. LW has Double Frost which is far better than any anytimer hib has access to. LA back styles GR is superior to any other dual line styles.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:03 PM by Heini

Fairness Changes...
So what about second ns curer like friar in alb?
so NS cure for warden and schaman?

Fairness changes .....
Reduce the amnesia from bard that he is in insta stun from the pac heal ? fair?

This changes are just stupid in my eyes and i cant see any point why you should do this!

Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:17 PM by Nauglamir

Unification is good if you are overwhelmed with balancing asymetrics. If you are, which is totally understandable, I'd much rather have you leave the balancing to Mythic, they did great til EA bought em and wrecked the game. There is nothing broken about the styles from a macro perspective, which is what matters. I think we love the game as it was and is here, mostly, that's why people play here and not on live.

That this may be boring for an aspiring game designer is understandable as well, tho. But aren't there possibly better areas to focus on than the kickass core mechanics? ^^

Thu 26 Mar 2020 7:04 PM by imweasel

I like most of this idea. However, rather than making styles similar to each other in each realm, I would rather you balance weapon styles in each realm to diversify spec line choice.

Make it a play style/tactical choice to spec in a certain weapon for reasons.

Then try to balance and tweak between the realms.

Just don't try to balance between spec lines and realms at the same time. One at a time. This will allow you to test your idea more systematically and not screw up and make the realms identical.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:07 PM by Centenario

I dont like to be forced to go thrust or hammer for the snare style... I'd rather spec thrust or hammer for the mood.
What we could do is keep all styles as is, but give RvR only styles to all classes, only usable against enemy players, with same growth rate and bonuses :
- 29 in any weapon line will give you a back snare of 20+ seconds (even spear and two-handed).
- 50 in any dual wield weapon style give you that dual shadow
- 50 in weapon line for assassin classes give you On-evade 5sec stun
- 50 heavy weapon (two-handed/spear/large/mid weapons) give you back stun

Leave valewalker/reaver/savage styles to be strange.

It's basically the same as 42shield = slam for all realms.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:14 PM by Vkejai

To many changes here already. Please no more.. please...

Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:01 PM by krisvanhijfte

So the more we go the more it's a custom server and not a classic server anymore...

Thu 26 Mar 2020 11:39 PM by mhenfhis

Get live styles with some changes and i am happy

Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:52 AM by gotwqqd

The “fix” of long streaks of misses created this issue.
How about removing the fix.

Though I’m all for fixing bleeds as my favorite mid weapon line is axe

Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:11 AM by SaintRon

Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:02 PM
you wanna really kill your serv "classic" becoming "custom" serv...

Is this literally because you can't adapt? That's what the "you're making it not classic" sounds like to me. One thing I'll never get is I WANT IT CLASSIC, but I also want terribly imbalanced classes in game so no changes.

It's like you want a permanent meta with 1/3 to 1/2 of your classes being pointless for the sake of "feel". You'll have people scream that the balance is perfect, but then make PVE groups that are just PBAOE with a turret or you'll laugh at someone who wants to 8 man with a non meta class.

I love DAOC, but I think imbalanced stagnation is laughably short sighted.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 3:19 AM by sylvynyr

SaintRon wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:11 AM
Is this literally because you can't adapt? That's what the "you're making it not classic" sounds like to me. One thing I'll never get is I WANT IT CLASSIC, but I also want terribly imbalanced classes in game so no changes.

It's not about adapting; it's about changing the essence of DAOC. 3 and 4 part style chains are meant to be difficult to pull off. Different weapons get different style effects. Different realms get different classes which get different abilities.

What's so terribly imbalanced? The Mids get all the relics, then the Albs get all the relics, then the Hibs get all the relics. Each realm has its moment, then it passes and another picks up. DF is constantly back and forth between all three realms. Yes, certain classes don't fair as well in this patch period and server QOL changes hurt others; Paladins and Wardens come to mind, but then you can level up another character in under 48 hours fully geared and templated and play whatever you want whenever you want. Free respecs for 24 hours per level and then minimal feather cost for more?

I mean holy shit... Thanes?!?!?! Have you seen so many Thanes in your life?!?!? Groups are actually WANTING Thanes?!?!

If anything is imbalanced, it's the HP boost that hurts burst damage classes favoring sustain. It's the plethora of Potions that make some classes less desirable/necessary in 8man/small groups. It's that everyone gets SpecAF and Haste among other Potion buffs that some classes relied upon buff speclines for balance. Changing style chains, style effects, and growth rates isn't going to fix any of those underlying issues; it's just another band-aid on the bandage.

Tweaks are great to play with balance; massive overhauls can and will add yet more issues. Patch 1.65 was what? 3-5 years into the lifecycle where paid employees worked to design and constantly balance this asymmetrical wonderland? It's also the last patch prior to TOA which was a massive overhaul; how did that go? Why was 1.65 chosen again?

Fri 27 Mar 2020 10:37 AM by Gildar

SaintRon wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:11 AM
Shadowkill wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:02 PM
you wanna really kill your serv "classic" becoming "custom" serv...

Is this literally because you can't adapt? That's what the "you're making it not classic" sounds like to me. One thing I'll never get is I WANT IT CLASSIC, but I also want terribly imbalanced classes in game so no changes.

It's like you want a permanent meta with 1/3 to 1/2 of your classes being pointless for the sake of "feel". You'll have people scream that the balance is perfect, but then make PVE groups that are just PBAOE with a turret or you'll laugh at someone who wants to 8 man with a non meta class.

I love DAOC, but I think imbalanced stagnation is laughably short sighted.

Sorry but i dont understand ... me (and most people here i guess) play on Phoenix mostly because it's a CLASSIC DAOC server (with some optimisation QoL) and some little custom .... staff made an excellent work on this and i'm very grateful to each of them .

But the real point is that we dont wanna play a fully custom server ... live mirror all classes (giving trainable shield to warden for example .. lol, what a stupid idea) and constantly loose players ... it is a boredom, u can play in the same manner and with the same playstyle on each realm

U dont like classic patch and the differences between classes (imbalances you call them) that are in this patch ? simply delete your account and go play live, or WoW or whatever other game more "balanced" ... and absolutely more boring .

Sorry but i'm tired te read about class imbalances, sgraved , op classes and so on ... Classic DAOC was that from the beginning in 2001, cannot be a surprise, if someone dont like ... get to another game, why still here ?

Fri 27 Mar 2020 11:12 AM by Ele

From what I can get out of the proposed changes, it does not sound like introducing mirror styles/classes is a point of the changes, comparable to the style-overhaul that happened to live servers years ago. To me it sounds more like getting rid of several design flaws in the style lines, like bleeds following a snare style, which can be seen in various specc lines. Some fairness changes, like maybe buffing alb/hib anytimers, granting access to reactional stuns and removeing inconsistencies in the dmg of some chains, sound reasonable either.
Another thing that I didn't notice until re-reading Schafs initial post is the mathematical reasoning behind the changes to chains:

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Style Chains:
Style chains will be reduced to a max length of 2, that means there will only be styles with direct follow ups, never follow ups with further follow ups. This is primarily due to our streak avoidance making larger chains even harder than they would be anyways.

So apart from any classic/custom/mirror discussion, there are, at least to me, some good reasons to tweaking the style system. Lets wait and see what the staff proposes.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:08 PM by Nunki

Gildar wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 10:37 AM
Sorry but i dont understand ... me (and most people here i guess) play on Phoenix mostly because it's a CLASSIC DAOC server (with some optimisation QoL) and some little custom .... staff made an excellent work on this and i'm very grateful to each of them .

I am quite sure that the major part of the playerbase would play WHATEVER they get for free as long as it is fun. I highly doubt that the majority is gainst a custom server.
A huge part of the playerbase played on this, or a comparable patch for years (Uth 1, Uth 2, Phoenix).
Custom changes (even essential overhauls) are not bad, they bring some variation in the monotony of the last 5+ years.

Gildar wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 10:37 AM
But the real point is that we dont wanna play a fully custom server ... live mirror all classes (giving trainable shield to warden for example .. lol, what a stupid idea) and constantly loose players ... it is a boredom, u can play in the same manner and with the same playstyle on each realm

Read above. Just my point of view.
A constant loss of players is normal for every old game and the core reason for that are not changes, but the complete opposite, monotony and the same content again and again. I am not a fan of making all three realms the same, but I doubt that the final changes will promote anything like that.

Gildar wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 10:37 AM
Sorry but i'm tired te read about class imbalances, sgraved , op classes and so on ... Classic DAOC was that from the beginning in 2001, cannot be a surprise, if someone dont like ... get to another game, why still here ?

From my point of view, the game is quite balanced atm, but I am still open for changes.
I like free DAoC, I disliked post-TOA with overcomplicating everything and in case that you didn't realize it, there is no other DAoC freeshard server left where "custom lovers" or "classic lovers" could go to.

I am curious on what the actual changes might be.
Have a good time.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:28 PM by dougrighteous1

hopefully u make intelligent changes. Left axe fuckin blows and shadowblades are unplayable in thid. 21 LA ,15 sowrd and my styles hit for 18 mainhand 16 offhand, fully temp'd with mp mh/oh, and fully buffed on anyone that's not a cloth wearer. it's a joke

Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:53 PM by gotwqqd

dougrighteous1 wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:28 PM
hopefully u make intelligent changes. Left axe fuckin blows and shadowblades are unplayable in thid. 21 LA ,15 sowrd and my styles hit for 18 mainhand 16 offhand, fully temp'd with mp mh/oh, and fully buffed on anyone that's not a cloth wearer. it's a joke

Get out of thid

Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:28 PM by sylvynyr

I most certainly hope and have faith that the game will continue to NOT be balanced around Thidranki.

DPS = damage per second (damage over time).

(LA = CD = DW) over time. LA gains the benefit of always swinging both weapons, and therefore SBs always landing both poisons. The tradeoff is less damage per hit, but over time it is equal to Celtic Dual and Dual Wield which rely on offhand chance burst damage.

Don't forget BS2 outdamages PA in Thid on Phoenix because the formula is very strange (rewards high CS spec which benefits Infs who get more spec points), so you can and should stop at 18CS if you decide to go that route in Thid.

Assassins are tough to play in Thid; so many (4-5) priority spec lines at such low level.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 2:27 PM by dougrighteous1

so.. because its balanced poorly to the detriment of lower levels, and balanced poorly to the benefit of higher levels.... i should gtfo of thid? I'm sorry, isnt that the entire point of these style changes, and this thread? Balance?

And your only intelligent response is gtfo thid? You do know that's part of the game right? I didn't ask for it to be balance around thid, but maybe make the game more balanced in general, which of course brings it back to the original point. Shadowblades and like the other guy above said, all stealthers suck in thid. I would love to leave thid and go elsewhere but no one plays any other BG.

As for the spec, ive tried every combo. So I just quit playing the character. But i guess most people see that as a proper solution to balance and and lack of enjoyment

Fri 27 Mar 2020 5:31 PM by Centenario

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:07 PM
I dont like to be forced to go thrust or hammer for the snare style... I'd rather spec thrust or hammer for the mood.
What we could do is keep all styles as is, but give RvR only styles to all classes, only usable against enemy players, with same growth rate and bonuses :
- 29 in any weapon line will give you a back snare of 20+ seconds (even spear and two-handed).
- 50 in any dual wield weapon style give you that dual shadow
- 50 in weapon line for assassin classes give you On-evade 5sec stun
- 50 heavy weapon (two-handed/spear/large/mid weapons) give you back stun

Leave valewalker/reaver/savage styles to be strange.

It's basically the same as 42shield = slam for all realms.

Thid is horrible if you are not a caster or a speed class.

I think to have PvP specific styles that would balance things out a bit could be a good solution.

Caster can 3-cast kill in thid.
In thid assassin classes are supposed to almost one-shot when temped. Or kill casters in max 5 styles (in case they are temped).

Sat 28 Mar 2020 8:22 AM by kosen

Please look at axe/sword Line for Skalds, as they are not useable as it is now..
Thanks

Sat 28 Mar 2020 9:12 AM by facekidd

there are far too many styles giving bleed damage and like you say it is low and pointless and only really has negative affect if you plan to mezz or root or snare someone

as such thrust line is really unusable for classes that want too use these root and snare and mezz

wouldnt mind seeing stronger bleed but on way less styles ..

Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:22 PM by Egonek

the changes are great! they bring only balnce to the game and not more.

Dont forget hit chance and endu costs

Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:37 PM by Renork

These are some really good changes. Valewalkers were/are still the least played class on live, but reducing the chains down to two made them way more fun for small-man action (with the addition of pbaoe disease/aoe disease/immolation/frontal root/stun-dd follow up/better rr5). I saw someone complain about this on the first page and I can't help but to laugh, Blizzard Blade is level 29 and gets resisted a shit ton even with MoF, and they ARE the least played class on this server too. If cutting down their LONG useless chains gets you riddled up, maybe you should /uninstall and play checkers.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 4:29 PM by sylvynyr

kosen wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 8:22 AM
Please look at axe/sword Line for Skalds, as they are not useable as it is now..
Thanks

Seems strange to say, but the only things Hammer has going for it are having the absolute slowest 1h (decently) and 2h (minimally) weapons and the rear snare. I could be missing some aspects, but seems like Hammer consistently does less style damage across the board while having equivalent effects beyond the rear snare and worse Parry styles if Revenge was fixed (more below).

Purposefully left out the Axe Front positional styles as they are typically not used in RvR.
Included 44/50 spec styles, but Skalds seem to typically stick to 39/44 for more BattleSong points. In fact 50 weapon is almost a nonstarter for Skalds since 43 Battlesongs is arguably the definitive minimum for Speed 5 and that leaves you with only 2 Parry.
Included Evade and Block chains for comparison, but these styles are typically not used by Skalds in RvR preferring the more likely occurring Parry followups.
Discovered a discrepancy where the Hammer Revenge chain is apparently incorrectly based off Parry instead of Block
https://web.archive.org/web/20031002074004/http://www.camelotherald.com:80/styles/line.php?line=16
Discovered a peculiarity in that Hand Axes (2.4spd) should be capped at 15dps, but ROGs go up to 16.5
Discovered a peculiarity in that Bearded Axe (2.7spd) should be capped at 15.3dps, but ROGs go up to 16.5
This probably extends to all ROGs based on crafted weapons and inherent to the ROG system.
http://motogs.redemptionofdivineharmony.net/mid_weaponcalculator.php

Likely Specs
Weap/BS/Parry
39/50/18
44/46/17
50/43/2

The resist table seems to prefer Slash, although the reduction from 10% to 5% for Vulnerability closes the gap somewhat, but the Resistant aspect stayed at 10%:

Slash Resist
Vulnerable - Champion, Druid, Hero, Warden
Neutral - Armsman, Cleric, Friar, Infiltrator, Mercenary, Minstrel, Necromancer, Paladin, Cabalist, Reaver, Sorcerer, Scout, Theurgist, Wizard, Animist, Eldritch, Enchanter, Mentalist, Valewalker
Resistant - Bard, Blademaster, Nightshade, Ranger

Crush Resist
Vulnerable - Armsman, Friar, Infiltrator, Paladin, Bard, Blademaster, Nightshade, Ranger
Neutral - Cabalist, Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Wizard, Animist, Eldritch, Enchanter, Mentalist, Valewalker
Resistant - Cleric, Mercenary, Minstrel, Reaver, Scout, Champion, Druid, Hero, Warden

Axe
1h spd - 2.9 - 3.2 - 3.4 - 3.7 - 4.2 Crafted AND 2.4 to 4.2 ROG
2h spd - 5.0 - 5.3 - 5.5 Crafted AND 4.7 to 5.5 ROG
Taunt - .60 GR
Anytime - .40 GR Slow 21% -> .65 GR Snare
Side - .79 GR Slow 34%
Rear - .60 GR Bleed6 35sec -> @44 spec .95 GR
Parry - .85 GR Slow 16% -> .90 GR
Block - .90 -> .90 Stun 6sec
Evade - .95 GR Bleed7 40sec

Sword
1h spd - 3.0 - 3.5 - 4.0 Crafted AND 2.3 to 4.1 ROG
2h spd - 4.7 - 5.0 - 5.3 Crafted AND 4.6 to 5.4 ROG
Taunt - .59 GR
Anytime - .62 GR
Anytime - .39 GR -> .66 GR Snare
Side - .63 GR 19% Slow -> .91 GR Snare
Rear - @50 spec .89 GR 30% Slow
Parry - .89 GR Bleed -> .90 GR 21% Slow
Block - .88 Bleed4 25sec -> .92 Stun 7sec
Evade - .93 GR -> @44spec .89 GR Bleed10 40sec

Hammer
1h spd - 3.1 - 3.6 - 4.1 Crafted AND 2.8 to 4.1 ROG
2h spd - 4.9 - 5.2 - 5.4 Crafted AND 4.8 to 5.4 ROG
Taunt - .58 GR
Anytime - .41 GR -> .76 GR
Side - .63 GR Slow 19% -> .66 GR Stun 2sec
Rear - .74 Snare -> @44 spec .94 GR
Parry - .88 GR Stun 2sec -> .88 GR Bleed3 20sec
Parry - .88 GR Bleed9 40sec -> @50 spec .92 GR Slow 34%
Revenge chain is currently based off Parry but should be after Block - https://web.archive.org/web/20031002074004/http://www.camelotherald.com:80/styles/line.php?line=16
Block - .88 GR Slow 21% -> .88 GR Stun 7sec
Evade - None

1h spd - Typically want the fastest for interrupts/taunts
Axe - 2.4 (ROG) to 4.2
Sword - 2.3 (ROG) to 4.3 (Sword of Sorrow)
Hammer - 2.8 (ROG) to 4.6 (Agmundr Foe's Hammer)

2h spd - Typically want the slowest for raw damage
Axe - 4.7 (ROG) to 5.6 (Dragon-shadow Great Axe)
Sword - 4.6 (ROG) to 5.7 (Dragonfury & Agmundr's Foe Slayer)
Hammer - 4.8 (ROG) to 5.8 (Dragonstorm)

Taunt
Axe - .60 GR
Sword - .59 GR
Hammer - .58 GR

Anytime
Axe - .40 GR Slow 21% -> .65 GR Snare
Sword - .62 GR
Sword - .39 GR -> .66 GR Snare
Hammer - .41 GR -> .76 GR

Side
Axe - .79 GR Slow 34%
Sword - .63 GR 19% Slow -> .91 GR Snare
Hammer - .63 GR Slow 19% -> .66 GR Stun 2sec

Rear
Axe - .60 GR Bleed6 35sec -> @44 spec .95 GR
Sword - @50 spec .89 GR 30% Slow
Hammer - .74 Snare -> @44 spec .94 GR

Parry
Axe - .85 GR Slow 16% -> .90 GR
Sword - .89 GR Bleed -> .90 GR 21% Slow
Hammer - .88 GR Stun 2sec -> .88 GR Bleed3 20sec
Hammer - .88 GR Bleed9 40sec -> @50 spec .92 GR Slow 34%

Block
Axe - .90 -> .90 Stun 6sec
Sword - .88 Bleed4 25sec -> .92 Stun 7sec
Hammer - .88 GR Slow 21% -> .88 GR Stun 7sec

Evade
Axe - .95 GR Bleed7 40sec
Sword - .93 GR -> @44spec .89 GR Bleed10 40sec
Hammer - None

Sat 28 Mar 2020 4:57 PM by Cadebrennus

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 4:29 PM
kosen wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 8:22 AM
Please look at axe/sword Line for Skalds, as they are not useable as it is now..
Thanks

Seems strange to say, but the only things Hammer has going for it are having the absolute slowest 1h (decently) and 2h (minimally) weapons and the rear snare. I could be missing some aspects, but seems like Hammer consistently does less style damage across the board while having equivalent effects beyond the rear snare and worse Parry styles if Revenge was fixed (more below).

Purposefully left out the Axe Front positional styles as they are typically not used in RvR.
Included 44/50 spec styles, but Skalds seem to typically stick to 39/44 for more BattleSong points. In fact 50 weapon is almost a nonstarter for Skalds since 43 Battlesongs is arguably the definitive minimum for Speed 5 and that leaves you with only 2 Parry.
Included Evade and Block chains for comparison, but these styles are typically not used by Skalds in RvR preferring the more likely occurring Parry followups.
Discovered a discrepancy where the Hammer Revenge chain is apparently incorrectly based off Parry instead of Block
https://web.archive.org/web/20031002074004/http://www.camelotherald.com:80/styles/line.php?line=16
Discovered a peculiarity in that Hand Axes (2.4spd) should be capped at 15dps, but ROGs go up to 16.5
Discovered a peculiarity in that Bearded Axe (2.7spd) should be capped at 15.3dps, but ROGs go up to 16.5
This probably extends to all ROGs based on crafted weapons and inherent to the ROG system.
http://motogs.redemptionofdivineharmony.net/mid_weaponcalculator.php

Likely Specs
Weap/BS/Parry
39/50/18
44/46/17
50/43/2

Axe
1h spd - 2.9 - 3.2 - 3.4 - 3.7 - 4.2 Crafted AND 2.4 to 4.2 ROG
2h spd - 5.0 - 5.3 - 5.5 Crafted AND 4.7 to 5.5 ROG
Taunt - .60 GR
Anytime - .40 GR Slow 21% -> .65 GR Snare
Side - .79 GR Slow 34%
Rear - .60 GR Bleed6 35sec -> @44 spec .95 GR
Parry - .85 GR Slow 16% -> .90 GR
Block - .90 -> .90 Stun 6sec
Evade - .95 GR Bleed7 40sec

Sword
1h spd - 3.0 - 3.5 - 4.0 Crafted AND 2.3 to 4.1 ROG
2h spd - 4.7 - 5.0 - 5.3 Crafted AND 4.6 to 5.4 ROG
Taunt - .59 GR
Anytime - .62 GR
Anytime - .39 GR -> .66 GR Snare
Side - .63 GR 19% Slow -> .91 GR Snare
Rear - @50 spec .89 GR 30% Slow
Parry - .89 GR Bleed -> .90 GR 21% Slow
Block - .88 Bleed4 25sec -> .92 Stun 7sec
Evade - .93 GR -> @44spec .89 GR Bleed10 40sec

Hammer
1h spd - 3.1 - 3.6 - 4.1 Crafted AND 2.8 to 4.1 ROG
2h spd - 4.9 - 5.2 - 5.4 Crafted AND 4.8 to 5.4 ROG
Taunt - .58 GR
Anytime - .41 GR -> .76 GR
Side - .63 GR Slow 19% -> .66 GR Stun 2sec
Rear - .74 Snare -> @44 spec .94 GR
Parry - .88 GR Stun 2sec -> .88 GR Bleed3 20sec
Parry - .88 GR Bleed9 40sec -> @50 spec .92 GR Slow 34%
Revenge chain is currently based off Parry but should be after Block - https://web.archive.org/web/20031002074004/http://www.camelotherald.com:80/styles/line.php?line=16
Block - .88 GR Slow 21% -> .88 GR Stun 7sec
Evade - None

1h spd - Typically want the fastest for interrupts/taunts
Axe - 2.4 (ROG) to 4.2
Sword - 2.3 (ROG) to 4.3 (Sword of Sorrow)
Hammer - 2.8 (ROG) to 4.6 (Agmundr Foe's Hammer)

2h spd - Typically want the slowest for raw damage
Axe - 4.7 (ROG) to 5.6 (Dragon-shadow Great Axe)
Sword - 4.6 (ROG) to 5.7 (Dragonfury & Agmundr's Foe Slayer)
Hammer - 4.8 (ROG) to 5.8 (Dragonstorm)

Taunt
Axe - .60 GR
Sword - .59 GR
Hammer - .58 GR

Anytime
Axe - .40 GR Slow 21% -> .65 GR Snare
Sword - .62 GR
Sword - .39 GR -> .66 GR Snare
Hammer - .41 GR -> .76 GR

Side
Axe - .79 GR Slow 34%
Sword - .63 GR 19% Slow -> .91 GR Snare
Hammer - .63 GR Slow 19% -> .66 GR Stun 2sec

Rear
Axe - .60 GR Bleed6 35sec -> @44 spec .95 GR
Sword - @50 spec .89 GR 30% Slow
Hammer - .74 Snare -> @44 spec .94 GR noEffect

Parry
Axe - .85 GR Slow 16% -> .90 GR
Sword - .89 GR Bleed -> .90 GR 21% Slow
Hammer - .88 GR Stun 2sec -> .88 GR Bleed3 20sec
Hammer - .88 GR Bleed9 40sec -> @50 spec .92 GR Slow 34%

Block
Axe - .90 -> .90 Stun 6sec
Sword - .88 Bleed4 25sec -> .92 Stun 7sec
Hammer - .88 GR Slow 21% -> .88 GR Stun 7sec

Evade
Axe - .95 GR Bleed7 40sec
Sword - .93 GR -> @44spec .89 GR Bleed10 40sec
Hammer - None

Nothing wrong with 16.5 ROGs that have their crafted versions capping at 15.0ish DPS. It gives us a higher variety of cool weapons to play with. My Merc is super happy to have a Gladius to swing around at 16.5 dps.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 5:30 PM by sylvynyr

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 4:57 PM
Nothing wrong with 16.5 ROGs that have their crafted versions capping at 15.0ish DPS. It gives us a higher variety of cool weapons to play with. My Merc is super happy to have a Gladius to swing around at 16.5 dps.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, just that it was a peculiarity that appears to be unique to this server and how it handles ROGs. It is however a factor to consider when discussing weapon spec lines and style damage since growth rates were balanced based on specific weapon speed ranges.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 6:10 PM by Cadebrennus

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 5:30 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 4:57 PM
Nothing wrong with 16.5 ROGs that have their crafted versions capping at 15.0ish DPS. It gives us a higher variety of cool weapons to play with. My Merc is super happy to have a Gladius to swing around at 16.5 dps.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, just that it was a peculiarity that appears to be unique to this server and how it handles ROGs. It is however a factor to consider when discussing weapon spec lines and style damage since growth rates were balanced based on specific weapon speed ranges.

I understand what you're saying, but I haven't seen anything that would be considered unbalanced. The cool factor is definitely there though.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 6:37 PM by sylvynyr

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 6:10 PM
I understand what you're saying, but I haven't seen anything that would be considered unbalanced. The cool factor is definitely there though.

No doubt, can't speak to balance. However, people are always complaining about Axe/Sword vs Hammer in Midgard so when you consider the weapon choices (spd) are different on Phoenix, and when the Hammer based Revenge chain is set to Parry instead of Block (this was changed for Skalds on February 27, 2008 in patch 1.92 around 5 years after patch 1.65 on which this server is based), then it shows a bit more why Hammer trends so highly regarded and recommended.

After looking over everything, sword looks more and more appealing considering the 5.7spd Dragonfury 2H sword comes with a LT proc vs 5.8spd Dragonstorm 2H hammer's DoT, and there are ROG swords down to 2.3spd when Skalds need ~2.3/2.4spd to cap @ 1.5 swing speed with 1h, vs hammer's 2.8spd

50 base quick
+75 items
+50 combined forces
175 quickness with 14% haste and a 2.3spd weapon = 1.47 capped at 1.5 second swing speed vs hammer's lowest 2.8spd 1.8 second swing
+10 quick at creation gets 1.5 second swing speed with 2.4spd ROG axe vs hammer's lowest 2.8spd 1.75 second swing

IMO:
Sword wins Anytime damage w/ option for anytime 2-pt snare
Axe kinda wins for Side style with the massive Slow and slightly higher GR, but sword gets a 2-pt snare there too and only minimally less damage
Hammer definitely wins Rear style for the high damage and utility chain Snare, especially since most Skalds won't spec 50 sword for Ragnarok
Sword arguably wins Parry style for damage and Slow if Hammer's Revenge chain were to be adjusted to the patch 1.65 standard on block condition

Sat 28 Mar 2020 7:32 PM by gotwqqd

kosen wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 8:22 AM
Please look at axe/sword Line for Skalds, as they are not useable as it is now..
Thanks

Axe lines for most

Sat 28 Mar 2020 7:39 PM by gotwqqd

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 4:29 PM
kosen wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 8:22 AM
Please look at axe/sword Line for Skalds, as they are not useable as it is now..
Thanks

Seems strange to say, but the only things Hammer has going for it are having the absolute slowest 1h (decently) and 2h (minimally) weapons and the rear snare. I could be missing some aspects, but seems like Hammer consistently does less style damage across the board while having equivalent effects beyond the rear snare and worse Parry styles if Revenge was fixed (more below).

Purposefully left out the Axe Front positional styles as they are typically not used in RvR.
Included 44/50 spec styles, but Skalds seem to typically stick to 39/44 for more BattleSong points. In fact 50 weapon is almost a nonstarter for Skalds since 43 Battlesongs is arguably the definitive minimum for Speed 5 and that leaves you with only 2 Parry.
Included Evade and Block chains for comparison, but these styles are typically not used by Skalds in RvR preferring the more likely occurring Parry followups.
Discovered a discrepancy where the Hammer Revenge chain is apparently incorrectly based off Parry instead of Block
https://web.archive.org/web/20031002074004/http://www.camelotherald.com:80/styles/line.php?line=16
Discovered a peculiarity in that Hand Axes (2.4spd) should be capped at 15dps, but ROGs go up to 16.5
Discovered a peculiarity in that Bearded Axe (2.7spd) should be capped at 15.3dps, but ROGs go up to 16.5
This probably extends to all ROGs based on crafted weapons and inherent to the ROG system.
http://motogs.redemptionofdivineharmony.net/mid_weaponcalculator.php

Likely Specs
Weap/BS/Parry
39/50/18
44/46/17
50/43/2

The resist table seems to prefer Slash, although the reduction from 10% to 5% for Vulnerability closes the gap somewhat, but the Resistant aspect stayed at 10%:

Slash Resist
Vulnerable - Champion, Druid, Hero, Warden
Neutral - Armsman, Cleric, Friar, Infiltrator, Mercenary, Minstrel, Necromancer, Paladin, Cabalist, Reaver, Sorcerer, Scout, Theurgist, Wizard, Animist, Eldritch, Enchanter, Mentalist, Valewalker
Resistant - Bard, Blademaster, Nightshade, Ranger

Crush Resist
Vulnerable - Armsman, Friar, Infiltrator, Paladin, Bard, Blademaster, Nightshade, Ranger
Neutral - Cabalist, Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Wizard, Animist, Eldritch, Enchanter, Mentalist, Valewalker
Resistant - Cleric, Mercenary, Minstrel, Reaver, Scout, Champion, Druid, Hero, Warden

Axe
1h spd - 2.9 - 3.2 - 3.4 - 3.7 - 4.2 Crafted AND 2.4 to 4.2 ROG
2h spd - 5.0 - 5.3 - 5.5 Crafted AND 4.7 to 5.5 ROG
Taunt - .60 GR
Anytime - .40 GR Slow 21% -> .65 GR Snare
Side - .79 GR Slow 34%
Rear - .60 GR Bleed6 35sec -> @44 spec .95 GR
Parry - .85 GR Slow 16% -> .90 GR
Block - .90 -> .90 Stun 6sec
Evade - .95 GR Bleed7 40sec

Sword
1h spd - 3.0 - 3.5 - 4.0 Crafted AND 2.3 to 4.1 ROG
2h spd - 4.7 - 5.0 - 5.3 Crafted AND 4.6 to 5.4 ROG
Taunt - .59 GR
Anytime - .62 GR
Anytime - .39 GR -> .66 GR Snare
Side - .63 GR 19% Slow -> .91 GR Snare
Rear - @50 spec .89 GR 30% Slow
Parry - .89 GR Bleed -> .90 GR 21% Slow
Block - .88 Bleed4 25sec -> .92 Stun 7sec
Evade - .93 GR -> @44spec .89 GR Bleed10 40sec

Hammer
1h spd - 3.1 - 3.6 - 4.1 Crafted AND 2.8 to 4.1 ROG
2h spd - 4.9 - 5.2 - 5.4 Crafted AND 4.8 to 5.4 ROG
Taunt - .58 GR
Anytime - .41 GR -> .76 GR
Side - .63 GR Slow 19% -> .66 GR Stun 2sec
Rear - .74 Snare -> @44 spec .94 GR
Parry - .88 GR Stun 2sec -> .88 GR Bleed3 20sec
Parry - .88 GR Bleed9 40sec -> @50 spec .92 GR Slow 34%
Revenge chain is currently based off Parry but should be after Block - https://web.archive.org/web/20031002074004/http://www.camelotherald.com:80/styles/line.php?line=16
Block - .88 GR Slow 21% -> .88 GR Stun 7sec
Evade - None

1h spd - Typically want the fastest for interrupts/taunts
Axe - 2.4 (ROG) to 4.2
Sword - 2.3 (ROG) to 4.3 (Sword of Sorrow)
Hammer - 2.8 (ROG) to 4.6 (Agmundr Foe's Hammer)

2h spd - Typically want the slowest for raw damage
Axe - 4.7 (ROG) to 5.6 (Dragon-shadow Great Axe)
Sword - 4.6 (ROG) to 5.7 (Dragonfury & Agmundr's Foe Slayer)
Hammer - 4.8 (ROG) to 5.8 (Dragonstorm)

Taunt
Axe - .60 GR
Sword - .59 GR
Hammer - .58 GR

Anytime
Axe - .40 GR Slow 21% -> .65 GR Snare
Sword - .62 GR
Sword - .39 GR -> .66 GR Snare
Hammer - .41 GR -> .76 GR

Side
Axe - .79 GR Slow 34%
Sword - .63 GR 19% Slow -> .91 GR Snare
Hammer - .63 GR Slow 19% -> .66 GR Stun 2sec

Rear
Axe - .60 GR Bleed6 35sec -> @44 spec .95 GR
Sword - @50 spec .89 GR 30% Slow
Hammer - .74 Snare -> @44 spec .94 GR

Parry
Axe - .85 GR Slow 16% -> .90 GR
Sword - .89 GR Bleed -> .90 GR 21% Slow
Hammer - .88 GR Stun 2sec -> .88 GR Bleed3 20sec
Hammer - .88 GR Bleed9 40sec -> @50 spec .92 GR Slow 34%

Block
Axe - .90 -> .90 Stun 6sec
Sword - .88 Bleed4 25sec -> .92 Stun 7sec
Hammer - .88 GR Slow 21% -> .88 GR Stun 7sec

Evade
Axe - .95 GR Bleed7 40sec
Sword - .93 GR -> @44spec .89 GR Bleed10 40sec
Hammer - None

I always felt hammer was overhyped
Rear snare
Axe is far better
It just needs a first strike stun(short) or snare

Sun 29 Mar 2020 4:27 AM by Pendalith

Il say it, make ragnarok a rear snare instead of a mele swing speed debuff. would open new spec options and variety of play.

Sun 29 Mar 2020 6:05 AM by gotwqqd

MyCatKevin wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:23 PM
Sathariel wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:00 PM
Better not touch my Leviathan.

Sure levi is nice, but Cobra is going to become wild with this change if it goes through as currently stated.

It'll likely be the 2nd style of a chain, but it'll hit as hard (if not harder because of resist holes) as levi and give you 100% of that proc damage back as health.

What is going to happen two the previous two parts of a four part chain?
It’s pointless if it’s the same reactive( hange one to evade?)
Or increase the speed debuff to make it a worthwhile choice?

Will be interesting what they do

Sun 29 Mar 2020 8:32 AM by SlowMo

I always valued the difference of the realms and classed as the one thing why daoc ist still after all this years such a decent and enjoyable game.

Changing that would pretty much destroys the uniqueness of this game. I don’t say some tweaks might be reasonable, but I won’t go the “same for everyone road“

Sun 29 Mar 2020 8:39 AM by Cadebrennus

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Mar 2020 8:32 AM
I always valued the difference of the realms and classed as the one thing why daoc ist still after all this years such a decent and enjoyable game.

Changing that would pretty much destroys the uniqueness of this game. I don’t say some tweaks might be reasonable, but I won’t go the “same for everyone road“

Exactly. If we wanted to play a game like WoW then we would just play WoW.

Sun 29 Mar 2020 12:51 PM by Taniquetil

I'd suggest maybe best to hold further feedback until we see the full extent of changes. E.g. just giving single stun+side stuns to realms and evening damage would leave things like doublefrost still being OP for 1 realm, or certain lines having access to ASRs that other realms dont, creating new imbalances.

Please, please please dont break the hamstring chain down to just hamstring then leaper ;(

Sun 29 Mar 2020 2:35 PM by bigne88

Dont make classes all the same...

Sun 29 Mar 2020 7:52 PM by Enyore

The proposed changes will not have the desired effect i think. You will start a sliding slope.

Take the VW as an example, if you make the aoe DD style the second follow up it will be much easier to land for a class that is already quite strong. Solution could be either to accept this and make a new meta for the game, or to reduce some of the damage it does.... Then you will have to make adjustments to adjustments and start re-balancing chars.

Same goes for giving CD back/side to DW and LA..... why? .... the biggest failure of mythic and later broadsword was to turn it into blue/green/red team.

Making individual corrections to styles is not a bad idea, some of the damage values for some of the styles are clearly off, but it should be done on an individual class level where specific problems exist.
Making a patch that turns the whole style system up side down is not going to give a positive result.

Sun 29 Mar 2020 10:52 PM by bigne88

Maybe damage table should be reworked. Like hero and arms one. But changing styles...meh

Sun 29 Mar 2020 11:00 PM by gotwqqd

Can we see a preliminary work of what is proposed to maybe give some feedback

Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:46 AM by Kabouik

If I remember correctly, bleeds keep victims in combat (often for a long time), and therefore are pretty useful. At least in solo. I wouldn't touch that nor make them stack, we don't really need people going down faster. But to be fair, I would probably not touch styles anyway.

Mon 30 Mar 2020 2:37 AM by gotwqqd

Kabouik wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:46 AM
If I remember correctly, bleeds keep victims in combat (often for a long time), and therefore are pretty useful. At least in solo. I wouldn't touch that nor make them stack, we don't really need people going down faster. But to be fair, I would probably not touch styles anyway.

But some styles are far to heavy in bleeds and if they don’t stack are redundant

Mon 30 Mar 2020 4:29 AM by sylvynyr

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 2:37 AM
But some styles are far to heavy in bleeds and if they don’t stack are redundant

Bleeds aren't necessarily redundant since they do refresh if a more powerful version is triggered. Stacking bleeds could probably easily get out of hand. If anything, an option could be to just make it so that bleed damage doesn't break CC.

Mon 30 Mar 2020 6:27 AM by gotwqqd

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 4:29 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 2:37 AM
But some styles are far to heavy in bleeds and if they don’t stack are redundant

Bleeds aren't necessarily redundant since they do refresh if a more powerful version is triggered. Stacking bleeds could probably easily get out of hand. If anything, an option could be to just make it so that bleed damage doesn't break CC.

Those with bleeds generally rely on the bleed damage to equal similar straight damage skills. So no stacking is fine.
It allows heals of all types to remedy. I guess you can have some sort of reduction for every bleed. First two 100% then 15% less each additional until some lower limit.

Mon 30 Mar 2020 6:29 AM by Vendetta

I am usually pretty open to changes, but Please - for the love of god, do not mess with style chains - you will break so many classes. Everything (and I do mean everything) will require rebalancing. the game is very balanced as it stands right now damage wise, certain abilities need to be looked at, but please, PLEASE dont break all the classes. This is a very bad idea.

I can say with 100% confidence that the ramifications of these 'balancing' changes will create HUGE changes in the meta, and although that isn;t bad, certain classes will have their damage output drastically increased/reduced.

Once that happens you will need to start tweaking damage tables or growth rates on the styles themselves, and break the classes more.

Mon 30 Mar 2020 7:12 AM by tyrantanic

I'm not a big fan of three+ part style chains but changing those would require tweaking growth rates and reduction of the VW style proc. I think styles that require your opponent to block / parry should be changed to self block / parry reactionaries. I would like to see two part snare chains become single style positionals to increase peeling efficiency for some classes (Flex Reaver for example). Small tweaks to styles would be nice but I don't think there really needs to be an overhaul.

Mon 30 Mar 2020 10:02 AM by Norad

I really hope we go against some of the style changes. In the first part adding every line to be the similar growth rate scaling with "
reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer" it will take the uniqueness out of every line. Right now with LW to do most damage you spam annihialte, so that will change to you need to do side style? Every line will need to do side style? That's a bad change to make everything equal.

Changing some styles from 3 chain to 2 chain is a bad idea also since there are a lot of effects to take into consideration so lots of nerfs to those styles will be needed, a good example is blizzard blade with a 198delve nuke on the end of it, changing it to a 2 style chain means you will hit it A LOT more and be able to hit it multiple times during a slammed target. The delve would need to be changed a lot on something like that.

If you think certain classes need some buffs or QOL stuff then that's understandable(giving mercs a back snare) but changing so much will just have un-intended effects.

Mon 30 Mar 2020 10:35 AM by Cadebrennus

Norad wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 10:02 AM
I really hope we go against some of the style changes. In the first part adding every line to be the similar growth rate scaling with "
reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer" it will take the uniqueness out of every line. Right now with LW to do most damage you spam annihialte, so that will change to you need to do side style? Every line will need to do side style? That's a bad change to make everything equal.

Changing some styles from 3 chain to 2 chain is a bad idea also since there are a lot of effects to take into consideration so lots of nerfs to those styles will be needed, a good example is blizzard blade with a 198delve nuke on the end of it, changing it to a 2 style chain means you will hit it A LOT more and be able to hit it multiple times during a slammed target. The delve would need to be changed a lot on something like that.

If you think certain classes need some buffs or QOL stuff then that's understandable(giving mercs a back snare) but changing so much will just have un-intended effects.

Every realm has something unique to it's light tank class. My Merc has the amazing frontal bleed chain (and runs 44 pierce for the snare) and my BM has side stun and rear snare, but lackluster damage on style chains.

Mon 30 Mar 2020 11:05 AM by Ele

Norad wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 10:02 AM
I really hope we go against some of the style changes. In the first part adding every line to be the similar growth rate scaling with "
reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer" it will take the uniqueness out of every line. Right now with LW to do most damage you spam annihialte, so that will change to you need to do side style? Every line will need to do side style? That's a bad change to make everything equal.
[...]
If you think certain classes need some buffs or QOL stuff then that's understandable(giving mercs a back snare) but changing so much will just have un-intended effects.

Thanks for pointing that out, I was not aware of this consequence. I only thought about removing some design flaws where follow-ups did less dmg than their respective openers with this change. From this point of view I'd vote against this kind of - maybe overseen? - homogenisation of melees.
Apart from that, reworking bleeds and tweaking some mid and alb melee lines sounds good to me.

Mon 30 Mar 2020 11:24 AM by jwalker

I have an Idea that might make solve the "chain" problem"

How about we change systel chain prerequitise to
"used the opener style in the last 5 seconds" ? Now you code that once a follow up style is used the time window is immediatly closed. This way, if your chain style got blocked, you can still try to use the chain style again until you were successful or you 5 second window is gone (so 2-3 attempts can be made)

Example:

1) Valewalker gets side style up (stunning blade) - which allows the use of winter scyth once during the next 5 seconds
2) target purges and blocks the follow up style (winter scyth), VW can now try again to hit with the winter scyth as the 5 second window isn't over. He tries again and hits
3) VW now has 5 seconds to hit with blizzard blade, he attemps and hits which immediately removes the 5 second window and he can't use Blizzard blade anymore until he hits again with winter scyth

Mon 30 Mar 2020 11:54 AM by jwalker

Ele wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 11:05 AM
Thanks for pointing that out, I was not aware of this consequence. I only thought about removing some design flaws where follow-ups did less dmg than their respective openers with this change. From this point of view I'd vote against this kind of - maybe overseen? - homogenisation of melees.
Apart from that, reworking bleeds and tweaking some mid and alb melee lines sounds good to me.

This is what I hate about this idea - that last sentence. So only Mid and Alb have lacklustering styles? Everyone is so biased. If you give berserker a proper rear snare and side stun for example, then he has the better anytimer and better positional DPS styles over BM, same with Merc. So yes CD has great utility but bad growth rates and anytimer compared to the other realms. Hib blade, crush and thrust have just simply inferior anytimer to mid/alb base style lines. Yes LW and Spear is not bad but are they superior to ALB Pole or Two hand? And any buff to mid base weapons buff Berserker, 2-Hand savage and Skald to the same extend - do these classes need help?

The only thing that make sence is to add a low or medium to hit bonus to some styles and either increase bleeds or remove them from some styles. Styles that come into my mid right now is

Mid hammer rear snare: add low to hit bonus
Mid Spear side style: add low to hit
Alb DW side style flank: add med. to hit bonus (a DPS style without a to hit bonus is not a DPS style at all)
Hib anytimer follow up solar flare and spectrum blade: increase to medium to hit (both combo of a low to hit anytimer)
all reactionary styles should have AT LEAST low to hit

Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:20 PM by Centenario

jwalker wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 11:54 AM
The only thing that make sence is to add a low or medium to hit bonus to some styles and either increase bleeds or remove them from some styles. Styles that come into my mid right now is

Mid hammer rear snare: add low to hit bonus
Mid Spear side style: add low to hit
Alb DW side style flank: add med. to hit bonus (a DPS style without a to hit bonus is not a DPS style at all)
Hib anytimer follow up solar flare and spectrum blade: increase to medium to hit (both combo of a low to hit anytimer)
all reactionary styles should have AT LEAST low to hit

Maybe give mid hammer rear snare *buffed* version to all weapon lines...

Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:32 PM by jwalker

Centenario wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:20 PM
jwalker wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 11:54 AM
The only thing that make sence is to add a low or medium to hit bonus to some styles and either increase bleeds or remove them from some styles. Styles that come into my mid right now is

Mid hammer rear snare: add low to hit bonus
Mid Spear side style: add low to hit
Alb DW side style flank: add med. to hit bonus (a DPS style without a to hit bonus is not a DPS style at all)
Hib anytimer follow up solar flare and spectrum blade: increase to medium to hit (both combo of a low to hit anytimer)
all reactionary styles should have AT LEAST low to hit

Maybe give mid hammer rear snare *buffed* version to all weapon lines...

haha I see I wanna by an (N) plz

Mon 30 Mar 2020 6:56 PM by gotwqqd

3part chains should just have 3rd part increased to hit and damage to account for the system
4 parts can be split up

Mon 30 Mar 2020 7:13 PM by sylvynyr

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 6:27 AM
Those with bleeds generally rely on the bleed damage to equal similar straight damage skills. So no stacking is fine.
It allows heals of all types to remedy. I guess you can have some sort of reduction for every bleed. First two 100% then 15% less each additional until some lower limit.

Aren't most bleeds minor damage? There are a few (Merc/BM) that are decently "significant", however more seem more useful for the utility and annoyance factor since they were supposed to block healing regen from starting and to keep you in combat IIRC.

I will say one chain I never understood was the Hamstring chain.
Hamstring (bleed5 30 sec) -> Leaper (bleed7 40 sec) -> Rib Separator snare 27sec -> Ripper (bleed11 40 sec)

While the Bleeds are fine on their own... what purpose does the snare on Rib Separator provide if bleeds break snare? There's no way to avoid the bleeds prior to it. So the 27 sec snare can feasibly only last a few seconds? Decided to look further into it... and I found it pretty interesting.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.12
In Beta patch 1.12, there were no styles in CS over level 29 Leaper.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.18
In Beta patch 1.18, level 29 Leaper was the highest style actually with a Name while 34/39/44/50 styles were generically named Crit 1 (Creeping Death), Crit 2 (Stunning Stab), Crit 3 (Rib Separation), Crit 4 (Ripper).
The evade chain was only Hamstring (bleed) -> level 44 Crit 3 (snare)
There was also a parry chain using Leaper (bleed) -> level 50 Crit 4 (bleed)

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.22
Beta patch 1.22 removed Parry from assassins and increased Evasion.
Shadowblades, Nightshades, and Infiltrators no longer are able to specialize in parry. Instead, they are granted extra levels of evade. This gives them one less skill to specialize in (actually two, since we also removed climb). Their increase in evade more than makes up for the loss of parry.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.39
Release patch 1.39 finally fixed the CS line since Leaper was still triggered off Parry
There was a bug in the Critical Strike combat style Leaper - it only allowed players to perform it after a parry. Since none of the Assassin characters get parry as a skill, then Leaper could never be performed. This has been fixed by changing some of the Critical Strike Styles: Leaper has been changed to work off a successful Hamstring. Rib Separation now works off a successful Leaper, and Ripper now works off a successful Rib Separation. This makes a powerful 4-style chain.

But this still leaves the question open as to why bleeds break snare if there's a prerequisite bleed to land a snare and it has always been that way since Beta.

Mon 30 Mar 2020 7:51 PM by eclipse2k

Honestly, Merc needs a (back)-snare style to be able to compete with BM/Zerk.
Or take the snare away from BM/Zerk :X

Mon 30 Mar 2020 10:30 PM by DarkDavion

Just don't touch the styles... If all classes will become similar the game will become incredibly boring.. Having only opening and follow up is a bad idea, try maybe to increase a bit the hit % of the 3rd or 4th style chain.. In my opinion is almost fine.. Is hard balancing all these things but simplifying all the mechanics isn't the solution

Tue 31 Mar 2020 4:51 AM by Cadebrennus

eclipse2k wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 7:51 PM
Honestly, Merc needs a (back)-snare style to be able to compete with BM/Zerk.
Or take the snare away from BM/Zerk :X

Mercs don't need this. Mine did just fine without it for years, and did just fine on this server too.

Tue 31 Mar 2020 5:58 AM by VonSchneider

Please! Please dont touch styles! Why wanna play Mythic and create an own custom game? Dont want to sound rude, but if a team of professionals couldnt balance styles, you shouldnt even try to. You will break so much and the outcome wont be liked by most players. Especially considering the "fairness" changes. Not cause I dont like sbs, but there is a reason for the difference beyond just having difference and in case of sbs I think they dont have a stun you talk about because they e.g. can use 2h, dont have a Str penalty because they can use a race with good str and so on. Just, please dont!

Tue 31 Mar 2020 7:21 AM by SlowMo

VonSchneider wrote: ↑
Tue 31 Mar 2020 5:58 AM
Especially considering the "fairness" changes. Not cause I dont like sbs, but there is a reason for the difference beyond just having difference and in case of sbs I think they dont have a stun you talk about because they e.g. can use 2h, dont have a Str penalty because they can use a race with good str and so on. Just, please dont!

I 100% agree and I already see the next requested balance change comin then: Inf and NS want to have 100% swing chance for offhand.

See where this is goin?

Tue 31 Mar 2020 8:34 AM by MacPrior

DarkDavion wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 10:30 PM
Just don't touch the styles... If all classes will become similar the game will become incredibly boring.. Having only opening and follow up is a bad idea, try maybe to increase a bit the hit % of the 3rd or 4th style chain.. In my opinion is almost fine.. Is hard balancing all these things but simplifying all the mechanics isn't the solution

Agree, but to simplify the chain of styles is a good idea.

Its just unrealistic to land 3nd or 4th style in the chain in RvR. And even if you qbind everythng, its too difficult to handle. Especially if we assume we all use to play different classes.

Mythic also have had the opinion - everyone will concentrate on only one toon at the beginning. But soon it was just very obviously such long chains are applicable in PvE but not in RvR.
So Mythic changed chains to 2-styles chains as well, which was very good change.

Tue 31 Mar 2020 8:41 AM by gotwqqd

This is ancillary to you fixing streaks of misses for the whiners out there who can’t live with the essence of an rpg.
Just fix or remove your system(that, IMO, wasn’t necessary)

Tue 31 Mar 2020 9:23 AM by Centenario

In the event of a style normalization for melee between realms, here is what I suggest:

DW/CELTICDUAL/LEFTAXE
50 skill = Front Bleed of Mercenary
29/44/50 = 3-style Back Chain of Berzerker (DAMAGE)
21/34 = Anytimer 2-style Chain of Blademaster

Sword/Slash/Blade
39 = Anytimer from Slash (instead of 29)
50 = Back AS debuff from Sword
34/50 = 2 Style back-chain from Blades
29 = Back 23 second snare from Hammer

Axe/Thrust/Pierce
15 = After-Block 6sec stun from Thrust
25 = After-Evade 5sec stun from Pierce
29 = Back 23 second snare from Hammer

Hammer/Crush/Blunt
29 = Back 23 second snare from Hammer

Flex/h2h/Scythe
29 = Side 23 second snare

2-Handed/LargeWeapons (TBD)

Polearm/CelticSpear/Spear (TBD)

Tue 31 Mar 2020 10:20 AM by evincare

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 31 Mar 2020 9:23 AM
In the event of a style normalization for melee between realms, here is what I suggest:

Axe/Thrust/Pierce
15 = After-Block 6sec stun from Thrust
25 = After-Evade 5sec stun from Pierce
29 = Back 23 second snare from Hammer

Would that mean, the only reactionary stuns would be in Axe, Thrust or Pierce (and shield I suppose)? If so, I don't know if I 'd like that. That way you'd pretty much force those onto all sins and lock them out of swords/blades/Slash respectively. AT least keep a reactionary one in LA/DW/CD - or CS if you want to go for sins specifically. I thought, style rework would mean, give any line something considered mandatory like a direct off evade stun or a back snare ( wouldn't consider an off-block stun mandatory, there's plenty of those in Shield). A change along that line I would really like as it would give more choice in weapon lines. Not a big fan of "normalization" across the board...

When reworking styles, would you take a look at CS as well or is the idea to balance realms? From my experience CS is rather strange atm... A PA with a slow twohander should hurt. I'm not necessarily talking oneshots. But there should be at least some incentive to even consider using a twohander as an SB. Trade-off is pretty clear: You only apply one poison with the swing.

Tue 31 Mar 2020 1:29 PM by bigne88

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 7:13 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 6:27 AM
Those with bleeds generally rely on the bleed damage to equal similar straight damage skills. So no stacking is fine.
It allows heals of all types to remedy. I guess you can have some sort of reduction for every bleed. First two 100% then 15% less each additional until some lower limit.

Aren't most bleeds minor damage? There are a few (Merc/BM) that are decently "significant", however more seem more useful for the utility and annoyance factor since they were supposed to block healing regen from starting and to keep you in combat IIRC.

I will say one chain I never understood was the Hamstring chain.
Hamstring (bleed5 30 sec) -> Leaper (bleed7 40 sec) -> Rib Separator snare 27sec -> Ripper (bleed11 40 sec)

While the Bleeds are fine on their own... what purpose does the snare on Rib Separator provide if bleeds break snare? There's no way to avoid the bleeds prior to it. So the 27 sec snare can feasibly only last a few seconds? Decided to look further into it... and I found it pretty interesting.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.12
In Beta patch 1.12, there were no styles in CS over level 29 Leaper.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.18
In Beta patch 1.18, level 29 Leaper was the highest style actually with a Name while 34/39/44/50 styles were generically named Crit 1 (Creeping Death), Crit 2 (Stunning Stab), Crit 3 (Rib Separation), Crit 4 (Ripper).
The evade chain was only Hamstring (bleed) -> level 44 Crit 3 (snare)
There was also a parry chain using Leaper (bleed) -> level 50 Crit 4 (bleed)

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.22
Beta patch 1.22 removed Parry from assassins and increased Evasion.
Shadowblades, Nightshades, and Infiltrators no longer are able to specialize in parry. Instead, they are granted extra levels of evade. This gives them one less skill to specialize in (actually two, since we also removed climb). Their increase in evade more than makes up for the loss of parry.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.39
Release patch 1.39 finally fixed the CS line since Leaper was still triggered off Parry
There was a bug in the Critical Strike combat style Leaper - it only allowed players to perform it after a parry. Since none of the Assassin characters get parry as a skill, then Leaper could never be performed. This has been fixed by changing some of the Critical Strike Styles: Leaper has been changed to work off a successful Hamstring. Rib Separation now works off a successful Leaper, and Ripper now works off a successful Rib Separation. This makes a powerful 4-style chain.

But this still leaves the question open as to why bleeds break snare if there's a prerequisite bleed to land a snare and it has always been that way since Beta.

Bleeds were not breaking cc. If i remember right.

Tue 31 Mar 2020 2:14 PM by Drakonal

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Tue 31 Mar 2020 1:29 PM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 7:13 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 6:27 AM
Those with bleeds generally rely on the bleed damage to equal similar straight damage skills. So no stacking is fine.
It allows heals of all types to remedy. I guess you can have some sort of reduction for every bleed. First two 100% then 15% less each additional until some lower limit.

Aren't most bleeds minor damage? There are a few (Merc/BM) that are decently "significant", however more seem more useful for the utility and annoyance factor since they were supposed to block healing regen from starting and to keep you in combat IIRC.

I will say one chain I never understood was the Hamstring chain.
Hamstring (bleed5 30 sec) -> Leaper (bleed7 40 sec) -> Rib Separator snare 27sec -> Ripper (bleed11 40 sec)

While the Bleeds are fine on their own... what purpose does the snare on Rib Separator provide if bleeds break snare? There's no way to avoid the bleeds prior to it. So the 27 sec snare can feasibly only last a few seconds? Decided to look further into it... and I found it pretty interesting.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.12
In Beta patch 1.12, there were no styles in CS over level 29 Leaper.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.18
In Beta patch 1.18, level 29 Leaper was the highest style actually with a Name while 34/39/44/50 styles were generically named Crit 1 (Creeping Death), Crit 2 (Stunning Stab), Crit 3 (Rib Separation), Crit 4 (Ripper).
The evade chain was only Hamstring (bleed) -> level 44 Crit 3 (snare)
There was also a parry chain using Leaper (bleed) -> level 50 Crit 4 (bleed)

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.22
Beta patch 1.22 removed Parry from assassins and increased Evasion.
Shadowblades, Nightshades, and Infiltrators no longer are able to specialize in parry. Instead, they are granted extra levels of evade. This gives them one less skill to specialize in (actually two, since we also removed climb). Their increase in evade more than makes up for the loss of parry.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.39
Release patch 1.39 finally fixed the CS line since Leaper was still triggered off Parry
There was a bug in the Critical Strike combat style Leaper - it only allowed players to perform it after a parry. Since none of the Assassin characters get parry as a skill, then Leaper could never be performed. This has been fixed by changing some of the Critical Strike Styles: Leaper has been changed to work off a successful Hamstring. Rib Separation now works off a successful Leaper, and Ripper now works off a successful Rib Separation. This makes a powerful 4-style chain.

But this still leaves the question open as to why bleeds break snare if there's a prerequisite bleed to land a snare and it has always been that way since Beta.

Bleeds were not breaking cc. If i remember right.

Bleeds break melee snares, a form of CC. Pretty sure bleeds break all CC. Just like DoTs

Tue 31 Mar 2020 2:19 PM by daytonchambers

Bleeds should stack, and not break snare. If anything, bleeds should amplify snare (Drowsy from blood loss)

As a counter, healing classes with access to cure poison and cure disease should have Cure Bleeding.

Tue 31 Mar 2020 10:37 PM by Cadebrennus

I say just leave it alone. I was against replacing block/parry stuns in certain lines (like Blades for Rangers/NS) with evade stuns because I KNEW back during beta and launch that it would not only become a slippery slope and lead to a metric f**kton of whining, and here we are, with armor tables changed to appease the whiners. Keep in mind I was (and still am) primarily playing a Blades Ranger. Hell, I'm all for changing it back to the original styles including all of the styles that were changed for whiney stealthers. Then we can change the armor tables back because then there will be a sacrifice in certain lines like Blades (no evade stun) to make up for its benefits (better damage to Mid leather/studded and neutral to Alb), while Pierce (for example) will have its benefits (evade stun) to balance out its weakness (armor tables).
.
.

.
.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 10:35 AM by inoeth

VonSchneider wrote: ↑
Tue 31 Mar 2020 5:58 AM
Please! Please dont touch styles! Why wanna play Mythic and create an own custom game? Dont want to sound rude, but if a team of professionals couldnt balance styles, you shouldnt even try to. You will break so much and the outcome wont be liked by most players. Especially considering the "fairness" changes. Not cause I dont like sbs, but there is a reason for the difference beyond just having difference and in case of sbs I think they dont have a stun you talk about because they e.g. can use 2h, dont have a Str penalty because they can use a race with good str and so on. Just, please dont!

the old 2h argument.....
play sb with 2h, get rekt every fight LOL
without the dmg bonus on 2h pa, 2h sb is totally crap

Thu 2 Apr 2020 4:24 PM by joshisanonymous

I don't have a great deal of experience as melee, so my only response here is to please implement these changes slowly and in steps. They sound like they could massively affect the dynamics of melee, which means innumerable possible unexpected consequences.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 11:03 PM by Strikejk

How will the Reaver Flexible Weapon Blockchain be handled?
Its a 4 style combo with 3 effects: stun, hastedebuff and lifedrain, all of them rather vital.
I can only see getting rid of 1 style there that has no effect.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 7:59 PM by

Uthred

I cleaned up the mess a bit. Pls stop the insults and stay on topic. Thank you very much.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 8:00 PM by Aytlan

If you are going to give infs and sb's more of an advantage by giving them the cd utility, can we take away Brit and Norse as a race option? Just to make it equal to the choice that ns's have.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:11 AM by Abattoir

I like this idea.

truthfully, some of the style chains make no sense to use.

Just make them usable or desirable would be nice.

Like fixing lower growth rate follow up styles and removing 3+ chains.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 6:25 AM by Razur Ur

Strikejk wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 11:03 PM
How will the Reaver Flexible Weapon Blockchain be handled?
Its a 4 style combo with 3 effects: stun, hastedebuff and lifedrain, all of them rather vital.
I can only see getting rid of 1 style there that has no effect.

is to strong this combo! look side style with Large Weapon Hibernia is total shitty compare with your reaver combo!!!

Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:47 AM by inoeth

Aytlan wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 8:00 PM
If you are going to give infs and sb's more of an advantage by giving them the cd utility, can we take away Brit and Norse as a race option? Just to make it equal to the choice that ns's have.

ok if rangers/ns dont have side+evade stun+20% dmg advantage anymore

Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:00 AM by gotwqqd

How about an idea or taste of what you devs are contemplating?

I really want axe line to be tweaked
And see what is in store for bleeds.
Most lines need maybe one or two “significant” changes
Most will be slight increases to follow ups or reactionaries

Not sure if breaking up chained over two is warranted.

Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:07 AM by Centenario

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:00 AM
How about an idea or taste of what you devs are contemplating?

I really want axe line to be tweaked
And see what is in store for bleeds.
Most lines need maybe one or two “significant” changes
Most will be slight increases to follow ups or reactionaries

Not sure if breaking up chained over two is warranted.

I think this is what they should do:

In the event of a style normalization for melee between realms, here is what I suggest:

DW/CELTICDUAL/LEFTAXE
50 skill = Front Bleed of Mercenary
29/44/50 = 3-style Back Chain of Berzerker (DAMAGE)
21/34 = Anytimer 2-style Chain of Blademaster

Sword/Slash/Blade
39 = Anytimer from Slash (instead of 29)
50 = Back AS debuff from Sword
34/50 = 2 Style back-chain from Blades
29 = Back 23 second snare from Hammer

Axe/Thrust/Pierce
15 = After-Block 6sec stun from Thrust
25 = After-Evade 5sec stun from Pierce
29 = Back 23 second snare from Hammer

Hammer/Crush/Blunt
29 = Back 23 second snare from Hammer

Flex/h2h/Scythe
29 = Side 23 second snare

2-Handed/LargeWeapons (TBD)

Polearm/CelticSpear/Spear (TBD)

GotWQQD, what do you suggest for axe then?

Tue 7 Apr 2020 9:25 AM by Razur Ur

why givent axt not level 50 style with disease proc and all another styles strong bleeding with different dmg types?

Wed 8 Apr 2020 9:17 AM by El_Momo

Bleeds should reduce HP/END/POWER by the same amount.

ie 9hp, 9end and 9 mana.

IMO Stuns should also consume targets END, ie getting the wind knocked out of you.

Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:13 AM by Sepplord

Considering how the net-neutral intended crit-changes turned into a huge nerf of the RA due to unforseen ciurcumstances, i really hope these style changes will still take a very long time until you push them out. This is a VERY complex topic compared to the quite straight forward critchange and currently i don't see it NOT causing a huge shitstorm and loads of frustration among the classes that get the short end of the stick :/

Sorry for being pessimistic here, but overhauling basically every melee class in the game at the same time with a generic adjustment sounds like a huge risk. If you pull it off half decent, heavy respect. But i fear that even done well it will lead to more frustrated people than happy people, and it being done well is an immense challenge

Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:36 AM by Muse

The only required style change atm is to give side/backsnare to Tanks and sidestun for zerk

Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:42 AM by Cadebrennus

Muse wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:36 AM
The only required style change atm is to give side/backsnare to Tanks and sidestun for zerk

Those already exist in various weapon lines and need only be specced for. If a player chooses not to spec in those lines for something that's the fault of the player, not the game.

Fri 10 Apr 2020 2:41 AM by Aytlan

This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.
If you are really looking at fairness then you can't give all this utility to Alb/Mid assassins, while leaving NS with only -20 strength races. NS has Str based melee dmg and Str/dex based melee dmg, so why only give them the option of caster races? I think it would be fair to give Alb/Mid assassins this utility, only if you fix the unfairness of race selection.

Fri 10 Apr 2020 3:18 AM by Riac

Aytlan wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 2:41 AM
This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.
If you are really looking at fairness then you can't give all this utility to Alb/Mid assassins, while leaving NS with only -20 strength races. NS has Str based melee dmg and Str/dex based melee dmg, so why only give them the option of caster races? I think it would be fair to give Alb/Mid assassins this utility, only if you fix the unfairness of race selection.

no one is making them play blades. they play blades because they get good dmg vs mids and neutral vs albs (i think, i dont remember). go pierce if you dont like having the str disparity.
i think NS is the best sin.

Fri 10 Apr 2020 4:52 AM by Cadebrennus

Aytlan wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 2:41 AM
This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.
If you are really looking at fairness then you can't give all this utility to Alb/Mid assassins, while leaving NS with only -20 strength races. NS has Str based melee dmg and Str/dex based melee dmg, so why only give them the option of caster races? I think it would be fair to give Alb/Mid assassins this utility, only if you fix the unfairness of race selection.

Not to mention the unfairness of weapon selection. Alb has an offhand DA proc weapon that has a nearly 100% uptime, that is not available on the other two realms.

Fri 10 Apr 2020 5:08 AM by Riac

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 4:52 AM
Aytlan wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 2:41 AM
This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.
If you are really looking at fairness then you can't give all this utility to Alb/Mid assassins, while leaving NS with only -20 strength races. NS has Str based melee dmg and Str/dex based melee dmg, so why only give them the option of caster races? I think it would be fair to give Alb/Mid assassins this utility, only if you fix the unfairness of race selection.

Not to mention the unfairness of weapon selection. Alb has an offhand DA proc weapon that has a nearly 100% uptime, that is not available on the other two realms.

are yall honestly saying that nightshade is weak????? yall are crazy.

Fri 10 Apr 2020 10:16 AM by Sepplord

They conveniently forget that bladeNS already got evadestyles they shouldn't have... and when this same favor is about to be given to someone else they scream bloody murder...

I am also sceptical of this announcement but the reasonings and compensation demands already being made are ridiculous

Fri 10 Apr 2020 10:48 AM by Loki

They reduced armor vulnerability to 5% from 10% in November which made all the NSs screech with joy - "It's fair now guise, it's only 15% difference" , and then they add more CC to the realm who had the most (spammable hinder that really didn't do anything to help scouts except make them reset the fight whenever they wanted to or make them viable in stealth zergs) which led to an immediate pop of 5-6 alb stealth zergs that are now considered as a problem thus a subject to nerfs. All while mid sneaks have no response in hard CC other than a 2 style chain (that can be interrupted by a superior instant after-evade) and an easily avoidable hunter back stun (5 sec for a 2hand spear).
And now a year in, you consider adding a reactive single stun , even though it took you days to implement the scout hinder.

Too little, too late .

Maybe get some devs that play Midgard too.

Fri 10 Apr 2020 11:26 AM by Noashakra

The people that says the NS is the best sin have no real argument about why in my opinion. The dps given to the inf, that can make a 47 dual spec at the 5L with a stun 2s and 6s on evade, is well above the NS dd advantage. You add the add dmg proc, and voilà. But I will not say that the NS should cry. The SB is clearly the weakest of the 3. Giving them a direct stun on evade 4s doesn't seem unfair to me.

Fri 10 Apr 2020 6:06 PM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 10:16 AM
They conveniently forget that bladeNS already got evadestyles they shouldn't have... and when this same favor is about to be given to someone else they scream bloody murder...

I am also sceptical of this announcement but the reasonings and compensation demands already being made are ridiculous

Completely understandable. I'm totally against evade stuns in Blades and other styles in all realms that never originally had it. They were given to appease the whiners. Originally, not having evade stuns in Blades and other lines was a form of balance, but that's gone now thanks to the whiners.

Sat 11 Apr 2020 7:25 AM by Noashakra

In term of game desing or background, it makes no sense and it was a horrible choice. Why would you train to have a style on parade when you can't even do that.

Sat 11 Apr 2020 8:17 PM by Aytlan

Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 3:18 AM
Aytlan wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 2:41 AM
This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.
If you are really looking at fairness then you can't give all this utility to Alb/Mid assassins, while leaving NS with only -20 strength races. NS has Str based melee dmg and Str/dex based melee dmg, so why only give them the option of caster races? I think it would be fair to give Alb/Mid assassins this utility, only if you fix the unfairness of race selection.

no one is making them play blades. they play blades because they get good dmg vs mids and neutral vs albs (i think, i dont remember). go pierce if you dont like having the str disparity.
i think NS is the best sin.

Pierce is still 50% strength, so you aren't avoiding the loss by using pierce and it's a worse line, both dmg resists and styles.

Sun 12 Apr 2020 1:34 AM by Riac

Aytlan wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 8:17 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 3:18 AM
Aytlan wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 2:41 AM
This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.
If you are really looking at fairness then you can't give all this utility to Alb/Mid assassins, while leaving NS with only -20 strength races. NS has Str based melee dmg and Str/dex based melee dmg, so why only give them the option of caster races? I think it would be fair to give Alb/Mid assassins this utility, only if you fix the unfairness of race selection.

no one is making them play blades. they play blades because they get good dmg vs mids and neutral vs albs (i think, i dont remember). go pierce if you dont like having the str disparity.
i think NS is the best sin.

Pierce is still 50% strength, so you aren't avoiding the loss by using pierce and it's a worse line, both dmg resists and styles.

are yall honestly saying that NS is weak? i wish yall could see the numbers that pop up in my rr9 sbs dmg log, just makes me laugh so hard when i hear this stuff. yall have no clue....

Sun 12 Apr 2020 10:06 AM by Noashakra

Riac wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 1:34 AM
Aytlan wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 8:17 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 3:18 AM
no one is making them play blades. they play blades because they get good dmg vs mids and neutral vs albs (i think, i dont remember). go pierce if you dont like having the str disparity.
i think NS is the best sin.

Pierce is still 50% strength, so you aren't avoiding the loss by using pierce and it's a worse line, both dmg resists and styles.

are yall honestly saying that NS is weak? i wish yall could see the numbers that pop up in my rr9 sbs dmg log, just makes me laugh so hard when i hear this stuff. yall have no clue....

Nobody says that, he just used a counter point to his argument.
NS is far from weak and is in a good spot.

Sun 12 Apr 2020 10:48 AM by inoeth

when i see NS hitting MH for 190 which is more than a SB does combines MH and OH together, i dont see any argument for celt NS..... imo luri and elf str should be lowered to 10 or even 0

Sun 12 Apr 2020 11:33 AM by Noashakra

inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 10:48 AM
when i see NS hitting MH for 190 which is more than a SB does combines MH and OH together, i dont see any argument for celt NS..... imo luri and elf str should be lowered to 10 or even 0

What should I do when I see an infiltrator hitting at 250 mh then :p?
Also, the SB has 100% hit chance lh, so he can apply all his poisons faster. With the add dmg charge, it's super lethal. A typcal NS template has 18cd, and high RR, it's around 28.

Sun 12 Apr 2020 1:03 PM by inoeth

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 11:33 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 10:48 AM
when i see NS hitting MH for 190 which is more than a SB does combines MH and OH together, i dont see any argument for celt NS..... imo luri and elf str should be lowered to 10 or even 0

What should I do when I see an infiltrator hitting at 250 mh then :p?
Also, the SB has 100% hit chance lh, so he can apply all his poisons faster. With the add dmg charge, it's super lethal. A typcal NS template has 18cd, and high RR, it's around 28.

250? now you trolling

never seen these high numbers on phoenix or maybe get some resists?

Sun 12 Apr 2020 4:29 PM by Oxylon

I agree with all those changes (shorter chain style, bleeds..) but not with trying to make classes more balanced in each realm, giving everyone stun or stuff they dont have...
I see this game as an overall big balance between realms, some advantages or disadvantages.
I think there are other things in that balance that just having a style that stun or not. Trying to balance like that, will lead to balancing everything (casters that dont have stun, casters that dont have root, healers that whatever, then fg that have too much this or that...). Im afraid it will look at the end like any other 2 realms mmo with almost exact mirror classes : fair and boring.
It's not like it was to lift up one class that is so below others (like mercenary before they boost its damages back in time). Its for the sake of trying to "balance" the whole thing that I think will lead to having less savors and identity for each realms. We all know this or that class is like that and we have the opportunity and creativity to balance it our own way : RA's, different spec, grouping with other class that have what you miss. If one class is really left over then lets just patch it a bit but please keep the diversity in the whole thing, because its already balanced in a wider way.

Mon 13 Apr 2020 4:41 PM by Strikejk

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 6:25 AM
Strikejk wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 11:03 PM
How will the Reaver Flexible Weapon Blockchain be handled?
Its a 4 style combo with 3 effects: stun, hastedebuff and lifedrain, all of them rather vital.
I can only see getting rid of 1 style there that has no effect.

is to strong this combo! look side style with Large Weapon Hibernia is total shitty compare with your reaver combo!!!

shows you have no clue as the 4style block combo is considered utterly garbage

Tue 14 Apr 2020 8:28 AM by Centenario

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=99782
Some "Fairness" Changes
Still actively discussed on the exact extend of this change, general gist is that there are mirror spec lines in the different realms with differences for the sake of having some difference. Part of it will be that SBs will receive some form of reactive stun that is not a follow up.
This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.

In the event of a style normalization for melee between realms, here is what I suggest:

DW/CELTICDUAL/LEFTAXE (except SB)
50 skill = Front Bleed of Mercenary
29/44/50 = 3-style Back Chain of Berzerker (DAMAGE)
21/34 = Anytimer 2-style Chain of Blademaster
8 = Back 12sec snare from Celtic Dual
29 = Side 12sec snare from Dual Wield

Sword/Slash/Blade
29 = Anytimer from Slash
39 = Back DPS style from Slash
50 = Back AS debuff from Sword
34/50 = 2 Style back-chain from Blades

Axe/Thrust/Pierce
15 = After-Block 6sec stun from Thrust
25 = After-Evade 5sec stun from Pierce

Hammer/Crush/Blunt
29 = Back 23 second snare from Hammer

Flex/h2h/Scythe
<none> considered giving 44 = back 8sec stun from scythe to flex/h2h

2-Handed/LargeWeapons
15 = Side 14 sec snare from Two-Handed
15 = Any AS debuff from Large Weapons
39 = Back 12 sec snare from Two-Handed
50 = Back 9 sec stun from Large Weapons

Polearm/CelticSpear/Spear
4 = Side 11 sec snare from Polearm
6 = Back 11 sec snare from Celtic Spear
10 = On-Parry AS debuff from Polearm
18 = Any 12sec snare from Polearm
21 = On-Parry 5sec stun from Celtic Spear
21 = Side AS debuff from Spear
39 = Back 5sec Stun from Spear
50 = After-(18style) 31sec snare from Polearm

New changes:
Added 2-handed/LargeWeapons
Added Polearms/CelticSpear/Spear
Removed Hammer back snare from thrust/axe/pierce
Removed Hammer back nsare from slash/blade/sword
Removed side-snare from flex/h2h/scythe
Modified Slash/blade/sword
Modified CelticDual/DW/LeftAxe

Tue 14 Apr 2020 8:40 AM by gotwqqd

Tweaking =/= normalization

Tue 14 Apr 2020 10:11 AM by Centenario

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=99782
Bleeds
This part is still being discussed and it's likely that there could be a couple tests to see how it plays out. Bleeds are utterly pointless in the current game, in the original game their only justification was against epic bosses when doing them in small groups (melee hits hitting for 1 damage and bleed doing 25), however even this niche use case doesn't apply anymore.
Feedback here is welcome, so far a likely test candidate would be this: Bleed value is increased and bleeds will stack.

For Bleeds, has been proposed:
- Increase Bleed Damage Value
- Make Bleeds Stackable
- Bleed become stats drains/dots
- Bleed have lower maximum duration
- Bleed do not break CCs (or none but mezz)
Or a combination of the above

How about giving melee classes a pbaoe dot in form of bleeds, to enable them to do some AoE dot Kitting ^^?
Also I can propose bleeds to last for as long as NS, give cure bleeds to all classes in the form of a craftable bandage (clothworking) and making bleeds tick every 15sec for the duration and interrupting casting, they would become another RvR tool for melee classes like stun and snares.

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Apr 2020 12:35 PM
Create two new PvE style for melee classes PbAoE DoT and PbAoE Damage:

PbAoE DoT for kite farming solo, from melee with sprint with those lines: (Left Axe, Celtic Dual, Dual Wield)
PbAoE Damage like whirlwind style with those lines: (TwoHanded/LargeWeapons/Sword/Polearm/CelticSpear/Spear)
Also make Volley-like archery ability usable like a GtAoE spell for archers.

"If you cannot beat them, join them!"

These things can be tested for 7 days, then feedback, update, test again, feedback update, test, vote, deploy or not.

We have to be careful that if we buff melee dots for PvE suddenly melees will become stronger than archer classes, which are supposed to be highest physical damage dealers in PvE.

Tue 14 Apr 2020 8:06 PM by Guetzli

I think the style changes would be very drastic and will massively change the melee classes.
I do think a changes to bleeds is called for. I never understood why they were even in the game...

Wed 15 Apr 2020 12:12 AM by Tyrlaan

Guetzli wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Apr 2020 8:06 PM
I do think a changes to bleeds is called for. I never understood why they were even in the game...

They stopped health regen (like disease does). They refreshed the combat timer on every damage tick, to prevent speed or re-stealth. Unfortunately, on Phoenix DoTs only set the combat timer on first tick so people can even stealth with a ticking DoT.

Bleeds used to have their place. That said, they should either not break CC or move to styles used for the bleed effect alone, not used in other style chains people might want to use in other scenarios (for damage or other effects).

Wed 15 Apr 2020 8:22 AM by Ashgaroth

I'm against this, I think it would open a can of worms!

Keep it to minor tweaks (damage, effect), don't change everything!
Also if you make things more "fair" and make for instance all the realm dual wield lines the same, it's just plain boring.

Thu 16 Apr 2020 4:02 AM by Pao

Sorry thats Change the Game too much. I DON'T understand the reason. For what and who are this CHANGES? If we want a simple game we would play something else.

Thu 16 Apr 2020 7:47 AM by Razur Ur

why are you all so upset? most player play caster anyway :-D

Thu 16 Apr 2020 1:16 PM by inoeth

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Apr 2020 7:47 AM
why are you all so upset? most player play caster anyway :-D

because midgard is getting a PA like anytimer on all classes with ae bleed

Thu 16 Apr 2020 3:35 PM by necrolove1

I fully welcome all of this, 3 chain Melee styles please get rid of these!

Fri 17 Apr 2020 2:42 AM by gotwqqd

necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Apr 2020 3:35 PM
I fully welcome all of this, 3 chain Melee styles please get rid of these!

No need to get rid of
Make them worth the effort and have each succeeding style larger to hit bonus

Fri 17 Apr 2020 5:39 AM by Forlornhope

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Apr 2020 10:11 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=99782
Bleeds
This part is still being discussed and it's likely that there could be a couple tests to see how it plays out. Bleeds are utterly pointless in the current game, in the original game their only justification was against epic bosses when doing them in small groups (melee hits hitting for 1 damage and bleed doing 25), however even this niche use case doesn't apply anymore.
Feedback here is welcome, so far a likely test candidate would be this: Bleed value is increased and bleeds will stack.

For Bleeds, has been proposed:
- Increase Bleed Damage Value
- Make Bleeds Stackable
- Bleed become stats drains/dots
- Bleed have lower maximum duration
- Bleed do not break CCs (or none but mezz)
Or a combination of the above

How about giving melee classes a pbaoe dot in form of bleeds, to enable them to do some AoE dot Kitting ^^?
Also I can propose bleeds to last for as long as NS, give cure bleeds to all classes in the form of a craftable bandage (clothworking) and making bleeds tick every 15sec for the duration and interrupting casting, they would become another RvR tool for melee classes like stun and snares.
Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Apr 2020 12:35 PM
Create two new PvE style for melee classes PbAoE DoT and PbAoE Damage:

PbAoE DoT for kite farming solo, from melee with sprint with those lines: (Left Axe, Celtic Dual, Dual Wield)
PbAoE Damage like whirlwind style with those lines: (TwoHanded/LargeWeapons/Sword/Polearm/CelticSpear/Spear)
Also make Volley-like archery ability usable like a GtAoE spell for archers.

"If you cannot beat them, join them!"

These things can be tested for 7 days, then feedback, update, test again, feedback update, test, vote, deploy or not.

We have to be careful that if we buff melee dots for PvE suddenly melees will become stronger than archer classes, which are supposed to be highest physical damage dealers in PvE.

I mean, I don't think archer classes are anywhere near the highest physical damage dealers in the game. But either way all this messing with the code is not even needed. They're already going to far with this, no need to make things worse.

Fri 17 Apr 2020 2:20 PM by Kimahri

First the TG heal proc on weapons proposal and now this shit. I can't wait to use dual shadows and aurora borealis on a melee ranger, sounds balanced, amirite? Don't you guys have a filter for shitty ideas amongst the GMs, or is this a Rian Johnson/The Last Jedi situation where everyone is too scared of the guy in charge to criticize their ideas, resulting in the community's loss of confidence in you.

Fri 17 Apr 2020 6:41 PM by Yint

Make bleeds drain endurance on targets. So casters cant perma sprint 100% of the time while the melee loses all endurance sprinting and styling.

Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:06 PM by Cadebrennus

Yint wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 6:41 PM
Make bleeds drain endurance on targets. So casters cant perma sprint 100% of the time while the melee loses all endurance sprinting and styling.

Best idea so far. Make bleeds "bleed" endurance instead of hp, and it will avoid interrupting snares/hinders/etc.

Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:25 PM by necrolove1

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:06 PM
Yint wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 6:41 PM
Make bleeds drain endurance on targets. So casters cant perma sprint 100% of the time while the melee loses all endurance sprinting and styling.

Best idea so far. Make bleeds "bleed" endurance instead of hp, and it will avoid interrupting snares/hinders/etc.

I like this idea, it isn't some crazy idea to try and get more dammage, and it would make END management more important.

in addition to endo drain, maybe some bleed styles can decrease the amount of endo recovery. If your enemy can't perma sprint away with these 10second debuffs on you, this would make using endo chant/song/buff, something more useful.

or even make styles cost more Endurance, either way i think something endurance related adds a nice flare to something a lot of people take for granted, and is the right track.

Sat 18 Apr 2020 5:41 PM by Krakkon

Please don t change styles change. Each realm has his own point of strenght and weakness. Actually it s right that the last style of a chain has a certain % to hit and that it deals a heavy damage. I hope there will be an in game vote for this change.

Sun 19 Apr 2020 2:22 AM by gotwqqd

Krakkon wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Apr 2020 5:41 PM
Please don t change styles change. Each realm has his own point of strenght and weakness. Actually it s right that the last style of a chain has a certain % to hit and that it deals a heavy damage. I hope there will be an in game vote for this change.

Not always true
Hunter has a three part chain where the 2nd and third parts are same or lower damage and both have bleeds
BOTH!! Why? And bleed damage is so low and drawn out it doesn’t matter

Sun 19 Apr 2020 3:17 AM by easytoremember

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Apr 2020 2:22 AM
Not always true
Hunter has a three part chain where the 2nd and third parts are same or lower damage and both have bleeds
BOTH!! Why? And bleed damage is so low and drawn out it doesn’t matter

Lancer-Stab-Raze , right?

Lancer starts with defense penalty and hit bonus
Stab drops the defense penalty while retaining the bonus hit and has half the endurance cost in ezchange for -.03 growthrate
Raze continues hit bonus w/ no penalty and has almost double the growthrate as Stab

Noting the 5 value bleed, supposing the bleed change goes through, this drop in damage is further justified without any tinckering with the styles
Raze upgrades the bleed to 7 value too which would also see some love from the bleed changes

Lancer - .41 - 10 Hit - (-)5 Defense - 10 endu
Stab - .38 - 10 Hit - 0 Defense - 5 endu - 5bleed,30sec
Raze .72 - 10 Hit - 0 Defense - 10 endu - 7bleed,40sec

Sun 19 Apr 2020 5:09 AM by VonSchneider

Im looking forward scared to the day these changes will come. What I hate most is that devs try to build a form of uniform soup where all differences are marginal.
Where is the fun then?
It already started with changes to Crits nobody asked for.

QoL is great.
Having a blast so far and Im really thankful for all the great work the devs did so far mixing up the old daoc with QoL changes for the present.
Im even, to some extent, in line with nerfing some OP classes for more fairness.

However now THIS tends to get totally out of control.
Give SBs reactive stun/Side Stun? Yeah sure.
But: WHY?
Even without there seem to be players who have fun playing SB and manage to be competitive even without these styles. And its not like SBs are totally gimp and dominated.
So again: Why these changes?

Sun 19 Apr 2020 6:26 AM by imweasel

All I can say is if this design follows the same plan applied to crit changes, this could be a disaster.

Change is only good if it's a good change.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 1:02 PM by hefrocko2

Who was complaining about styles? Of anything that needs looked at, styles has never been an issue in 19 years of daoc. You are opening a slippery slope where all spells need to be adjusted, then other things. They are all unique and offer their own pros/cons which is the entire point of realm/class selection that makes this game enjoyable and choices unique. This will open the door to some classes becoming OP all of a sudden with access to similar styles of another realm. You will have an endless headache of trying to re-balance things until you end up being back to the original styles. Can you at least do a poll requiring a 80% in favor before implementing this radical change? I think you'll find people are not in favor. Please please please discard this style change plan.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 1:34 PM by gotwqqd

hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 1:02 PM
Who was complaining about styles? Of anything that needs looked at, styles has never been an issue in 19 years of daoc. You are opening a slippery slope where all spells need to be adjusted, then other things. They are all unique and offer their own pros/cons which is the entire point of realm/class selection that makes this game enjoyable and choices unique. This will open the door to some classes becoming OP all of a sudden with access to similar styles of another realm. You will have an endless headache of trying to re-balance things until you end up being back to the original styles. Can you at least do a poll requiring a 80% in favor before implementing this radical change? I think you'll find people are not in favor. Please please please discard this style change plan.

First don’t compare live to here
They have a different miss/hit setup
Also they have already changed some styles

Biggest example I can give...there is an issue when 95% of the mid melee choose hammer and almost none axe

Tue 21 Apr 2020 10:30 AM by inoeth

hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 1:02 PM
Who was complaining about styles? Of anything that needs looked at, styles has never been an issue in 19 years of daoc. You are opening a slippery slope where all spells need to be adjusted, then other things. They are all unique and offer their own pros/cons which is the entire point of realm/class selection that makes this game enjoyable and choices unique. This will open the door to some classes becoming OP all of a sudden with access to similar styles of another realm. You will have an endless headache of trying to re-balance things until you end up being back to the original styles. Can you at least do a poll requiring a 80% in favor before implementing this radical change? I think you'll find people are not in favor. Please please please discard this style change plan.

styles have been changed several times in the history of daoc...

Tue 21 Apr 2020 10:07 PM by necrolove1

"What if bleeds would no longer deal damage but the first application applies -2 end regen to the target and additional bleeds increase the endurance drain by 1 while also resetting the duration (if the new bleed duration is higher than the remaining duration)?
Example: someone has +4 endurance regen (endurance potions (+3) and tireless (+1)), now a 17 second bleed is applied causing the target to only have +2 end regen for the next 17 seconds. After 10 seconds another 15 second bleed is applied, the target now only has +1 end regen for the next 15 seconds"

^^ was posted in #bleeds on discord I wanted to continue the disscusion

I think this is a very good idea tbh. but would this go into negative endurance regen? i think it should cap at 0 for end recovery if enough bleeds are applied.

I think making END management in RVR important is a very good move, and adds another level of skill to melee, not just mash mash mash mash a few buttons while the green bar doesnt move. this would also help balace the simplification of the reduction of 3 combo styles going to a max of 2.

This would also make END drain procs on weapons extremely saught after, not to mention maybe second wind and Endo restore pots/items.

To add to this, and i'm not sure if it is possible, but it would also be interesting to see Bleed have secondary function in PvE to help classes like INF/SB/NS be more saught after in dungeon groups/leveling groups. Maybe some Critical strike styles with bleed do a lot more dammage to PvE mobs only after 4-5 applications similar to a Dark souls bleed dammage burst. (if you filled up the bleed bar it did like 35% dammage for those of you who never played Darksouls)

Wed 22 Apr 2020 6:27 AM by inoeth

necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Apr 2020 10:07 PM
"What if bleeds would no longer deal damage but the first application applies -2 end regen to the target and additional bleeds increase the endurance drain by 1 while also resetting the duration (if the new bleed duration is higher than the remaining duration)?
Example: someone has +4 endurance regen (endurance potions (+3) and tireless (+1)), now a 17 second bleed is applied causing the target to only have +2 end regen for the next 17 seconds. After 10 seconds another 15 second bleed is applied, the target now only has +1 end regen for the next 15 seconds"

^^ was posted in #bleeds on discord I wanted to continue the disscusion

I think this is a very good idea tbh. but would this go into negative endurance regen? i think it should cap at 0 for end recovery if enough bleeds are applied.

I think making END management in RVR important is a very good move, and adds another level of skill to melee, not just mash mash mash mash a few buttons while the green bar doesnt move. this would also help balace the simplification of the reduction of 3 combo styles going to a max of 2.

This would also make END drain procs on weapons extremely saught after, not to mention maybe second wind and Endo restore pots/items.

To add to this, and i'm not sure if it is possible, but it would also be interesting to see Bleed have secondary function in PvE to help classes like INF/SB/NS be more saught after in dungeon groups/leveling groups. Maybe some Critical strike styles with bleed do a lot more dammage to PvE mobs only after 4-5 applications similar to a Dark souls bleed dammage burst. (if you filled up the bleed bar it did like 35% dammage for those of you who never played Darksouls)

yeah DS bleed

though 35% insta dmg would be too much imo^^

Wed 22 Apr 2020 10:29 AM by necrolove1

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 6:27 AM
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Apr 2020 10:07 PM
"What if bleeds would no longer deal damage but the first application applies -2 end regen to the target and additional bleeds increase the endurance drain by 1 while also resetting the duration (if the new bleed duration is higher than the remaining duration)?
Example: someone has +4 endurance regen (endurance potions (+3) and tireless (+1)), now a 17 second bleed is applied causing the target to only have +2 end regen for the next 17 seconds. After 10 seconds another 15 second bleed is applied, the target now only has +1 end regen for the next 15 seconds"

^^ was posted in #bleeds on discord I wanted to continue the disscusion

I think this is a very good idea tbh. but would this go into negative endurance regen? i think it should cap at 0 for end recovery if enough bleeds are applied.

I think making END management in RVR important is a very good move, and adds another level of skill to melee, not just mash mash mash mash a few buttons while the green bar doesnt move. this would also help balace the simplification of the reduction of 3 combo styles going to a max of 2.

This would also make END drain procs on weapons extremely saught after, not to mention maybe second wind and Endo restore pots/items.

To add to this, and i'm not sure if it is possible, but it would also be interesting to see Bleed have secondary function in PvE to help classes like INF/SB/NS be more saught after in dungeon groups/leveling groups. Maybe some Critical strike styles with bleed do a lot more dammage to PvE mobs only after 4-5 applications similar to a Dark souls bleed dammage burst. (if you filled up the bleed bar it did like 35% dammage for those of you who never played Darksouls)

yeah DS bleed though 35% insta dmg would be too much imo^^

For sure haha

Wed 22 Apr 2020 12:17 PM by SlowMo

I can just speak of a Sin Point of view.

Bleeds are pretty essential, maybe not in first place. But all bleed dmg is stacking up (over a complete fight) to a point where it does matter and can turn the favor.
Thats why Bleed Damage of Dual Shadows was nerfed some time ago, wasn´t it?

If it was utterly useless in the frst place why nerf it then?

So I have to disagree to the statement from gruenesschaaf that Bleeds are utterly useless.

But since devs want to change for the sake of change ( I feel) what about this Mechanic?
Dunno if it was mentioned before, though :

"Target takes more Damage(from all sources) per Bleed"

1 Bleed - Target takes 1% additional Damage
2 Bleeds - Target takes 2% additional Damage
3 Bleeds - Target takes 3% additional Damage
.....
..
..
maybe up to a maximum of 10 Bleed stacks

(Values are just an example)

Cheers

Edit: Or... just to spice it up: Target takes more critical Damage (from all sources) per Bleed :-)

Wed 22 Apr 2020 12:38 PM by Centenario

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 12:17 PM
"Target takes more Damage(from all sources) per Bleed"
maybe up to a maximum of 10 Bleed stacks

I think bleeds should still break mezz, but not break root/snare.
I also think that bleeds need to have an impact in RvR and in PvE. (that's why I did not like the -endo suggestion, it has no impact in PvE.

If you suggest that bleed does a damage debuff for x seconds, stackable (which I also suggested on the discord), I have one complain:
- bleeds style have different level requirement and positional/reactive requirements, so each bleed style should apply Y number of stacks.
- also bleeds from a slow weapon, imagine a polearm, a bleed by polearm should have a lot more impact than a bleed by 1h-slash, (a scratch vs having a limb taken off, lul)

Wed 22 Apr 2020 12:41 PM by SlowMo

Damage debuff in my case is the wrong term, I think - that would mean I do less damage.

I was suggesting that I take more damage the more bleeds stacks are on me

Wed 22 Apr 2020 12:43 PM by Razur Ur

create plz different bleeding for reduce mana and endurance per tick :-)

Wed 22 Apr 2020 12:45 PM by Riac

i think along time ago when mythic was making this game they had bleeds in mind for some physical styles and as the game progressed it became hard to balance around them and get them to act right, so they made a design to decision to just back seat them and put them and negligible values and would deal with them later. they made this game in like 18 months or something absurdly fast, so its not like they had the time to iron out all the kinks and really explore every idea they had. eventually, as time when on there was ever more pressing matters that came up and bleeds just never made it to the front. i think its just something that went by the wayside. at this point i dont even really see them as being a good idea. are we gonna have some sort of bleed counter like in wow? or we just supposed to keep track of how high our bleed stack has become on them? if you wanna do some sort of dmg amp, why not just put it on a style? why do we have to tie it to bleeds? you wanna drain endo? just put an endo tap or drain on a style. this bleed stuff seems much too convoluted at this point. not to mention the balancing can of worms it will open up.
by all means, adjust growth rates and trim chains, but idk about all this bleed stuff.

Wed 22 Apr 2020 12:58 PM by Cadebrennus

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 12:45 PM
i think along time ago when mythic was making this game they had bleeds in mind for some physical styles and as the game progressed it became hard to balance around them and get them to act right, so they made a design to decision to just back seat them and put them and negligible values and would deal with them later. they made this game in like 18 months or something absurdly fast, so its not like they had the time to iron out all the kinks and really explore every idea they had. eventually, as time when on there was ever more pressing matters that came up and bleeds just never made it to the front. i think its just something that went by the wayside. at this point i dont even really see them as being a good idea. are we gonna have some sort of bleed counter like in wow? or we just supposed to keep track of how high our bleed stack has become on them? if you wanna do some sort of dmg amp, why not just put it on a style? why do we have to tie it to bleeds? you wanna drain endo? just put an endo tap or drain on a style. this bleed stuff seems much too convoluted at this point. not to mention the balancing can of worms it will open up.
by all means, adjust growth rates and trim chains, but idk about all this bleed stuff.

Not on topic, but I didn't know their development cycle was so short. Damn. That's impressive for a game going 20 years later that still hasn't been equalled.

Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:00 PM by Riac

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 12:58 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 12:45 PM
i think along time ago when mythic was making this game they had bleeds in mind for some physical styles and as the game progressed it became hard to balance around them and get them to act right, so they made a design to decision to just back seat them and put them and negligible values and would deal with them later. they made this game in like 18 months or something absurdly fast, so its not like they had the time to iron out all the kinks and really explore every idea they had. eventually, as time when on there was ever more pressing matters that came up and bleeds just never made it to the front. i think its just something that went by the wayside. at this point i dont even really see them as being a good idea. are we gonna have some sort of bleed counter like in wow? or we just supposed to keep track of how high our bleed stack has become on them? if you wanna do some sort of dmg amp, why not just put it on a style? why do we have to tie it to bleeds? you wanna drain endo? just put an endo tap or drain on a style. this bleed stuff seems much too convoluted at this point. not to mention the balancing can of worms it will open up.
by all means, adjust growth rates and trim chains, but idk about all this bleed stuff.

Not on topic, but I didn't know their development cycle was so short. Damn. That's impressive for a game going 20 years later that still hasn't been equalled.

yea, pull this from the daoc wiki. its citation #11 on the wiki if you care to look it up.
"Total development costs excluding equipment leases was about $2.5 million[12] and took 18 months with a team of 25 full-time developers"
i always like to bring this up when ppl talk about mythic being master balancers or what their intent was for certain things.

Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:16 PM by necrolove1

After having giving it some thought, and reading through many of the posts here about bleeds. I started to think maybe a 1 solution to all may not be the best option for bleeds. This is a good opportunity to change a very much ignored section in the game ( bleeds) and could even potentially help some classes that aren't considered "META".

So far some of the ideas that i have looked at that don't seem too OP are the following:

- END regen debuff
- END Drain ( possibly better left for existing procs / new future procs for new content)
- Style END requirement increase
- Mana Regen debuff
- small % to ABS reduction
- Small damage burst (after 5 stacks of bleed or so)
- a buffed way of how it is currently (higher DoT w/ faster ticks)
- Secondary PVE only bleeds ( to help ceratin classes not saught out in PvE i.g. sins)

Maybe instead of a 1 solution fix all which could create some imbalances, we could use these ideas all together, by making certain bleeds in certain lines/styles do different things. Thus reemphasizing the fact that choices matter

For example (i am no class balance master these are just examples):

Melee line 1 - styles would get more access to END Regen Debuff bleeds (harder to land styles would potentailly get END requirement increase)

melee line 2 - % ABS reduction / Dammage burst stacks

melee line 3 - Higher DoT/tick rate

melee line 4 - etc etc.

new poisins that add 2 stacks of a certain bleed, possibly

mix and match as you see fit for class balance / playstyles (by playstyles i mean, most people in group fights probably aren't going try and get the evade pre-req bleed style off, while a soloer may)

Though some of this may seem like a nightmare to sort out who gets what.

Just a thought

Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:21 PM by SlowMo

necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:16 PM
After having giving it some thought, and reading through many of the posts here about bleeds. I started to think maybe a 1 solution to all may not be the best option for bleeds. This is a good opportunity to change a very much ignored section in the game ( bleeds) and could even potentially help some classes that aren't considered "META".

So far some of the ideas that i have looked at that don't seem too OP are the following:

- END regen debuff
- END Drain
- Style END requirement increase
- small % to ABS reduction
- Small damage burst (after 5 stacks of bleed or so)
- a buffed way of how it is currently (higher DoT w/ faster ticks)

Maybe instead of a 1 solution fix all which could create some imbalances, we could use these ideas all together, by making certain bleeds in certain lines/styles do different things. Thus reemphasize the fact that choices matter

For example (i am no class balance master these are just examples):

Melee line 1 - styles would get more access to END Regen Debuff bleeds (harder to land styles would potentailly get END requirement increase)

melee line 2 - % ABS reduction / Dammage burst stacks

melee line 3 - Higher DoT/tick rate

melee line 4 - etc etc.

new poisins that add 2 stacks of a certain bleed, possibly

mix and match as you see fit for class balance / playstyles (by playstyles i mean, most people in group fights probably aren't going try and get the evade pre-req bleed style off, while a soloer may)

Though some of this may seem like a nightmare to sort out who gets what.

Just a thought

All valid suggestions, but why for the sake of god are we planning to change a solid system :-)

Just to add some sarcasm to the discussion: I see a first day hotfix comin :-)

Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:28 PM by necrolove1

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:21 PM
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:16 PM
After having giving it some thought, and reading through many of the posts here about bleeds. I started to think maybe a 1 solution to all may not be the best option for bleeds. This is a good opportunity to change a very much ignored section in the game ( bleeds) and could even potentially help some classes that aren't considered "META".

So far some of the ideas that i have looked at that don't seem too OP are the following:

- END regen debuff
- END Drain
- Style END requirement increase
- small % to ABS reduction
- Small damage burst (after 5 stacks of bleed or so)
- a buffed way of how it is currently (higher DoT w/ faster ticks)

Maybe instead of a 1 solution fix all which could create some imbalances, we could use these ideas all together, by making certain bleeds in certain lines/styles do different things. Thus reemphasize the fact that choices matter

For example (i am no class balance master these are just examples):

Melee line 1 - styles would get more access to END Regen Debuff bleeds (harder to land styles would potentailly get END requirement increase)

melee line 2 - % ABS reduction / Dammage burst stacks

melee line 3 - Higher DoT/tick rate

melee line 4 - etc etc.

new poisins that add 2 stacks of a certain bleed, possibly

mix and match as you see fit for class balance / playstyles (by playstyles i mean, most people in group fights probably aren't going try and get the evade pre-req bleed style off, while a soloer may)

Though some of this may seem like a nightmare to sort out who gets what.

Just a thought

All valid suggestions, but why for the sake of god are we planning to change a solid system :-)

Just to add some sarcasm to the discussion: I see a first day hotfix comin :-)

Oh there will be hotfixes haha, but most of the current bleeds are laughable at best, i think before implementing any changes to bleeds, there will need to be massive tests from all walks of life in the community.

Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:30 PM by Centenario

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:21 PM
All valid suggestions, but why for the sake of god are we planning to change a solid system :-)
Just to add some sarcasm to the discussion: I see a first day hotfix comin :-)

It's like saying I dont want fiber optic internet cause my current DSL internet works fine.

Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:34 PM by Riac

Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:30 PM
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:21 PM
All valid suggestions, but why for the sake of god are we planning to change a solid system :-)
Just to add some sarcasm to the discussion: I see a first day hotfix comin :-)

It's like saying I dont want fiber optic internet cause my current DSL internet works fine.

not really. its more a long the lines of lets try this crazy-ass satellite internet that no one has ever heard of and has never been tested. also, lets rip out all the dsl lines so there will be no alternative.
the fiber optic in your scenario is tested and everyone knows is an upgrade. the satellite internet in mine is an unknown and could very well suck hard.

Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:53 PM by Sepplord

Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:30 PM
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:21 PM
All valid suggestions, but why for the sake of god are we planning to change a solid system :-)
Just to add some sarcasm to the discussion: I see a first day hotfix comin :-)

It's like saying I dont want fiber optic internet cause my current DSL internet works fine.

No, it's more like: i don't want someone to try and improve my router by opening the case and changing cables around for the offchance that it will improve the connection, because it's working right now.
The latest history of changes has shown that intent and implementation can seperate really fast...nerfing of crit-RAs heavily across the board instead of not changing average dmg output for example...
Believing that the bleed and stylechanges will lead to the game-mechanic equivalent of fiber optic internet is pretty far fetched imo.

The reason noone uses bleedstyles is because they break CC. Same reason noone but stealthers uses damageshields in RvR. If they want to start utilizing it why not make it not break CC? It's not like the styles themselves are completely lacking and worthless, yet a bunch of people here believe tacking on really strong bonus effects like end-drain on top of what the style already does is somehow a great idea.

Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:57 PM by necrolove1

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:53 PM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:30 PM
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:21 PM
All valid suggestions, but why for the sake of god are we planning to change a solid system :-)
Just to add some sarcasm to the discussion: I see a first day hotfix comin :-)

It's like saying I dont want fiber optic internet cause my current DSL internet works fine.

No, it's more like: i don't want someone to try and improve my router by opening the case and changing cables around for the offchance that it will improve the connection, because it's working right now.
The latest history of changes has shown that intent and implementation can seperate really fast...nerfing of crit-RAs heavily across the board instead of not changing average dmg output for example...
Believing that the bleed and stylechanges will lead to the game-mechanic equivalent of fiber optic internet is pretty far fetched imo.

The reason noone uses bleedstyles is because they break CC. Same reason noone but stealthers uses damageshields in RvR. If they want to start utilizing it why not make it not break CC? It's not like the styles themselves are completely lacking and worthless, yet a bunch of people here believe tacking on really strong bonus effects like end-drain on top of what the style already does is somehow a great idea.

Not making bleeds / dammage sheild break CC could be a great start IMO. As you said the style in itself has dammage on it, its the effect that comes after the bleed that is negative (breaking CC)

Wed 22 Apr 2020 2:39 PM by Centenario

I said multiple times to keep at least one CC (MEZZ) otherwise there will be not enough downside to using those bleed styles.

Wed 22 Apr 2020 2:41 PM by Cadebrennus

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 1:00 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 12:58 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 12:45 PM
i think along time ago when mythic was making this game they had bleeds in mind for some physical styles and as the game progressed it became hard to balance around them and get them to act right, so they made a design to decision to just back seat them and put them and negligible values and would deal with them later. they made this game in like 18 months or something absurdly fast, so its not like they had the time to iron out all the kinks and really explore every idea they had. eventually, as time when on there was ever more pressing matters that came up and bleeds just never made it to the front. i think its just something that went by the wayside. at this point i dont even really see them as being a good idea. are we gonna have some sort of bleed counter like in wow? or we just supposed to keep track of how high our bleed stack has become on them? if you wanna do some sort of dmg amp, why not just put it on a style? why do we have to tie it to bleeds? you wanna drain endo? just put an endo tap or drain on a style. this bleed stuff seems much too convoluted at this point. not to mention the balancing can of worms it will open up.
by all means, adjust growth rates and trim chains, but idk about all this bleed stuff.

Not on topic, but I didn't know their development cycle was so short. Damn. That's impressive for a game going 20 years later that still hasn't been equalled.

yea, pull this from the daoc wiki. its citation #11 on the wiki if you care to look it up.
"Total development costs excluding equipment leases was about $2.5 million[12] and took 18 months with a team of 25 full-time developers"
i always like to bring this up when ppl talk about mythic being master balancers or what their intent was for certain things.

Good point. Sure it was imperfect on release, and has been imperfect with every patch (balance shifting towards and away from being balanced), but it's still better than mirrored classes IMO like WoW and ESO. The important thing to me is that they swung for the fences rather than play it safe.

Wed 22 Apr 2020 4:34 PM by majedorcanie

Valewalker need a snare style on back or on side.
And may be a face chain with a second blow with a proc.

Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:56 AM by gotwqqd

majedorcanie wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 4:34 PM
Valewalker need a snare style on back or on side.
And may be a face chain with a second blow with a proc.

VW need nothing

Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:54 AM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:56 AM
majedorcanie wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 4:34 PM
Valewalker need a snare style on back or on side.
And may be a face chain with a second blow with a proc.

VW need nothing

yes they do, just an anytime that doesn't suck, and it's really easy to do without breaking the meta or anything. But I am sure the ohter message was trolling

Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:57 AM by Razur Ur

Hibernia need with LW specline a backsnare how like on Live Server!!!

Thu 23 Apr 2020 8:33 AM by inoeth

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:54 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:56 AM
majedorcanie wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 4:34 PM
Valewalker need a snare style on back or on side.
And may be a face chain with a second blow with a proc.

VW need nothing

yes they do, just an anytime that doesn't suck, and it's really easy to do without breaking the meta or anything. But I am sure the ohter message was trolling

svg also needs a better anytimer and snare

Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:14 AM by Lail

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 8:33 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:54 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:56 AM
VW need nothing

yes they do, just an anytime that doesn't suck, and it's really easy to do without breaking the meta or anything. But I am sure the ohter message was trolling

svg also needs a better anytimer and snare

What svg needs is a nerf and slightly less SP so they can't go 29 hammer in side spec anymore.

Midgard classic offtanks have always been svg = stun/nopeel/nopf + bursty dmg vs. zerk = peels+pf + constant dmg. I suggest to keep it that way. Be careful with AB when shrinking style chains.

Imo BM is a Hybrid version of svg/zerk with stun and side/backpeels and Merc isnt played much due to the lack of access to any kind of backpeel. Keep BM as it is and put backpeel into DW.

That's about it for offtanks.
cheers.

Thu 23 Apr 2020 11:14 AM by gotwqqd

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:54 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:56 AM
majedorcanie wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 4:34 PM
Valewalker need a snare style on back or on side.
And may be a face chain with a second blow with a proc.

VW need nothing

yes they do, just an anytime that doesn't suck, and it's really easy to do without breaking the meta or anything. But I am sure the ohter message was trolling

No they don’t because their positionals and reactionaries are maybe the best in the game
I’d be okay with the anytime getting one bump on to hit

Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:43 PM by Cadebrennus

Lail wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:14 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 8:33 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:54 AM
yes they do, just an anytime that doesn't suck, and it's really easy to do without breaking the meta or anything. But I am sure the ohter message was trolling

svg also needs a better anytimer and snare

What svg needs is a nerf and slightly less SP so they can't go 29 hammer in side spec anymore.

Midgard classic offtanks have always been svg = stun/nopeel/nopf + bursty dmg vs. zerk = peels+pf + constant dmg. I suggest to keep it that way. Be careful with AB when shrinking style chains.

Imo BM is a Hybrid version of svg/zerk with stun and side/backpeels and Merc isnt played much due to the lack of access to any kind of backpeel. Keep BM as it is and put backpeel into DW.

That's about it for offtanks.
cheers.

44 Thrust. Second in an anytime chain. Snare from any position.

Thu 23 Apr 2020 1:14 PM by Centenario

Good luck landing two hits in a row on the target when you can get CCed and they have guard/360 evade, they block and parry.

2style-anytime snare with no to-hit bonus on the first style.

Its 10-times worse than a back snare with zero to-hit bonus.

example from personal experience:

Switch to target hitting your healer.
Detaunt style = miss
Detaunt style = Evade
Detaunt style = Lands
Snare Style (44) = Blocks
Detaunt Style...
Detaunt Style

Thu 23 Apr 2020 4:02 PM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 11:14 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:54 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:56 AM
VW need nothing

yes they do, just an anytime that doesn't suck, and it's really easy to do without breaking the meta or anything. But I am sure the ohter message was trolling
No they don’t because their positionals and reactionaries are maybe the best in the game
I’d be okay with the anytime getting one bump on to hit

It's all I ask, a nice bonus to hit on the anytime, nothing else.

Sat 25 Apr 2020 2:04 PM by canzian

is fun.. people cry for side combo of vw.. but levia is ok haah

Sat 25 Apr 2020 3:07 PM by Kurbz

I think the three lines DW/LA/CD are pretty balanced right now. While DW and CD have better Styles LA have the Ability to 100% hit offhand. be careful changing stuff in such a fragile and pretty well balanced setup.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 5:40 AM by Dahuun

Kurbz wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Apr 2020 3:07 PM
I think the three lines DW/LA/CD are pretty balanced right now. While DW and CD have better Styles LA have the Ability to 100% hit offhand. be careful changing stuff in such a fragile and pretty well balanced setup.

Nope. The merc is uselees. He need a backsnare with 1h or in the dw line

Mon 27 Apr 2020 6:33 AM by Razur Ur

Dahuun wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 5:40 AM
Kurbz wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Apr 2020 3:07 PM
I think the three lines DW/LA/CD are pretty balanced right now. While DW and CD have better Styles LA have the Ability to 100% hit offhand. be careful changing stuff in such a fragile and pretty well balanced setup.

Nope. The merc is uselees. He need a backsnare with 1h or in the dw line

Plz give Hero/Champ backsnare with Large Weapon :-)

Mon 27 Apr 2020 7:08 AM by inoeth

Kurbz wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Apr 2020 3:07 PM
I think the three lines DW/LA/CD are pretty balanced right now. While DW and CD have better Styles LA have the Ability to 100% hit offhand. be careful changing stuff in such a fragile and pretty well balanced setup.

actually la has best anytimer and best backstyle combo from all the 3 dual wield lines
cd only shines with the side style stun
dw had a really nice frontal bleed style which is now nerfed

Mon 27 Apr 2020 7:32 AM by Noashakra

Give the DW and the VW a good anytime, that's all I ask :p
Really no need to break the chains imho

Mon 27 Apr 2020 7:40 AM by Razur Ur

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 7:32 AM
Give the DW and the VW a good anytime, that's all I ask :p
Really no need to break the chains imho

Yeah plz anytimer snare :-D

Mon 27 Apr 2020 7:51 AM by easytoremember

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 7:08 AM
Kurbz wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Apr 2020 3:07 PM
I think the three lines DW/LA/CD are pretty balanced right now. While DW and CD have better Styles LA have the Ability to 100% hit offhand. be careful changing stuff in such a fragile and pretty well balanced setup.

actually la has best anytimer and best backstyle combo from all the 3 dual wield lines
cd only shines with the side style stun
dw had a really nice frontal bleed style which is now nerfed

well you can bet that bleed style becomes as good or better with the upcoming bleed patch where it was originally ~~ (and then get nerfed by style patch for being front positional LOL)

Mon 27 Apr 2020 8:23 AM by Cadebrennus

Dahuun wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 5:40 AM
Kurbz wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Apr 2020 3:07 PM
I think the three lines DW/LA/CD are pretty balanced right now. While DW and CD have better Styles LA have the Ability to 100% hit offhand. be careful changing stuff in such a fragile and pretty well balanced setup.

Nope. The merc is uselees. He need a backsnare with 1h or in the dw line

There are snares in the other lines on Alb too. I've never had a problem with the Merc not having a back snare. Even using Numb is a good trick to stop someone in their tracks to get another snare off and then DPS them down.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:45 AM by Dahuun

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 8:23 AM
Dahuun wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 5:40 AM
Kurbz wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Apr 2020 3:07 PM
I think the three lines DW/LA/CD are pretty balanced right now. While DW and CD have better Styles LA have the Ability to 100% hit offhand. be careful changing stuff in such a fragile and pretty well balanced setup.

Nope. The merc is uselees. He need a backsnare with 1h or in the dw line

There are snares in the other lines on Alb too. I've never had a problem with the Merc not having a back snare. Even using Numb is a good trick to stop someone in their tracks to get another snare off and then DPS them down.

Thats rly funny!
Merc: Iam on the Xy. Oh wait...iam snared. Have a nice fight guys!

Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:59 AM by FreK

I would gladly make a blood sacrifice to the German god of your choosing if you give alb-DW similar damage and utility to CD/LA.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 10:51 AM by Patron

FreK wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:59 AM
I would gladly make a blood sacrifice to the German god of your choosing if you give alb-DW similar damage and utility to CD/LA.

sure, if you loose chainarmor for this trade...
cmon, you dont have it because of reasons and this is balancing!

Mon 27 Apr 2020 12:33 PM by Cadebrennus

Dahuun wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:45 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 8:23 AM
Dahuun wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 5:40 AM
Nope. The merc is uselees. He need a backsnare with 1h or in the dw line

There are snares in the other lines on Alb too. I've never had a problem with the Merc not having a back snare. Even using Numb is a good trick to stop someone in their tracks to get another snare off and then DPS them down.

Thats rly funny!
Merc: Iam on the Xy. Oh wait...iam snared. Have a nice fight guys!

.
.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 12:53 PM by FreK

Patron wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 10:51 AM
FreK wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:59 AM
I would gladly make a blood sacrifice to the German god of your choosing if you give alb-DW similar damage and utility to CD/LA.

sure, if you loose chainarmor for this trade...
cmon, you dont have it because of reasons and this is balancing!

I had a lengthy post with detailed numbers on snares available for Merc/BM/Bers, but it was lost because the board timed me out and then nuked my wall of text after re-login... so take my word for it or look it up yourself.

(quick and dirty rewrite)

Merc has 3 snares... all with 0% to hit bonus and no access to a rear positional, BM with 4 I think, and Bers with 6. ALL BM and Bers styles had more to hit bonus, and growth rate.

BM and Bers class cooldowns increase their damage while Merc is defensive. I don't think "because chain armor" covers no damage cooldown AND styles that hit for less damage.

The facts show the Merc lines at the minimum should receive attention towards their snares, and "some" attention toward the growth rates.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 1:05 PM by inoeth

FreK wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 12:53 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 10:51 AM
FreK wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:59 AM
I would gladly make a blood sacrifice to the German god of your choosing if you give alb-DW similar damage and utility to CD/LA.

sure, if you loose chainarmor for this trade...
cmon, you dont have it because of reasons and this is balancing!

I had a lengthy post with detailed numbers on snares available for Merc/BM/Bers, but it was lost because the board timed me out and then nuked my wall of text after re-login... so take my word for it or look it up yourself.

(quick and dirty rewrite)

Merc has 3 snares... all with 0% to hit bonus and no access to a rear positional, BM with 4 I think, and Bers with 6. ALL BM and Bers styles had more to hit bonus, and growth rate.

BM and Bers class cooldowns increase their damage while Merc is defensive. I don't think "because chain armor" covers no damage cooldown AND styles that hit for less damage.

The facts show the Merc lines at the minimum should receive attention towards their snares, and "some" attention toward the growth rates.

thrust merc 27s anytime combo snare *cough*

Mon 27 Apr 2020 1:07 PM by FreK

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 1:05 PM
thrust merc 27s anytime combo snare *cough*

that is a two part chain, starting with a 0% to hit bonus style with 0.00 growth rate *cough*

Mon 27 Apr 2020 1:36 PM by inoeth

FreK wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 1:07 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 1:05 PM
thrust merc 27s anytime combo snare *cough*

that is a two part chain, starting with a 0% to hit bonus style with 0.00 growth rate *cough*

yeah and? middie backstyle also has 0 hit bonus and well growth rate is not rly needed here because you want to snare someone and let them crawl for that time.
if you want to stop someone and burst him down you have slam

just get a 2.2 thruster and you can snare enemys rapidly
i mean 27s come on this has to have a down side

Mon 27 Apr 2020 2:05 PM by Razur Ur

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 1:36 PM
yeah and? middie backstyle also has 0 hit bonus and well growth rate is not rly needed here because you want to snare someone and let them crawl for that time.
if you want to stop someone and burst him down you have slam

shit of to hit bonus :-D, nobody need to hit bonus with back snare!

Mon 27 Apr 2020 4:22 PM by Patron

What is the Dunning-Kruger effect?

People bla too much and are so short sighted, its amazing to watch.

A: i want this because B have it to and i have it not
B: You have it
A: Yeah, but i have not the same
B: yeah, but this variance is because of Y
A: Yeah, but ... but... <silence>

This is the neverending story of kiddies of Daoc.
So annoying. Problem is, A change hourwise randomly...

Edit: And staff tend to hear on players feedback... SO ANNOYING

Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:26 PM by FreK

You just pulled out the DK effect, and called me a kid in a single post

. I can see I'm dealing with a superior intellect, and there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:34 PM by Riac

is this really dun-kruger? google says dun kruger is just inept ppl thinking they are good at shit.
this seems more like breaking one of the 10 commandments, coveting your neighbors shit or w/e that one is lol

Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:42 PM by Cadebrennus

Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:34 PM
is this really dun-kruger? google says dun kruger is just inept ppl thinking they are good at shit.
this seems more like breaking one of the 10 commandments, coveting your neighbors shit or w/e that one is lol

More like people blaming the game instead of themselves when they suck at their class, instead of seeing what can be done within the confines of their class. In my opinion that's half the fun; figuring out what can be done with what's given. Unfortunately it's just easier for people to whine.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:50 PM by FreK

Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:34 PM
is this really dun-kruger? google says dun kruger is just inept ppl thinking they are good at shit.
this seems more like breaking one of the 10 commandments, coveting your neighbors shit or w/e that one is lol

It's similar to a mentalist/druid/ns player saying he understands mele dynamics better than a savage/warrior/bm/vw/merc/arms player.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 10:13 PM by Cadebrennus

FreK wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:59 AM
I would gladly make a blood sacrifice to the German god of your choosing if you give alb-DW similar damage and utility to CD/LA.

Just learn to work with what you got.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 10:16 PM by Patron

Whenever i have the feeling people dont know what they say, i answer with: What is the dunning Kruger effect?
When i talk with coronaconspiracyfreaks, reichsbürger, xenophobe people, hippies, FFF-kiddies...
Or quoting Dieter Nuhr: "
if you have no idea, just shut up"

FreK wrote: I don't think

Ill help you.
Lets compare the 3 Offtanks.
Armor:
berzi studded
BM reinforce
merc chain

berzi and bm are same armorclass, same Af, same Absorb.
BM have shield, same as you, berzi not. So this disadvantage comes with better utility, besides midgard is melleerealm.
Merc has better armor, higher AF, higher Absorb.
This big advantage dont come out of nowhere. You have to pay for this.

PAY FOR THIS!

Otherwise mercs would be OP.

Plz read this, read this again. Think about it and say: yes, that makes sense, otherwise Merc would be the next dominator on the battlefield.
SO we can care for the next random "Person A" which comes soon to spread nonsense and beg for classenhancement.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 10:56 PM by FreK

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 10:13 PM
FreK wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:59 AM
I would gladly make a blood sacrifice to the German god of your choosing if you give alb-DW similar damage and utility to CD/LA.

Just learn to work with what you got.

I am, and will continue to do so whether or not anything is changed. This thread is asking for input, so I am giving it.

Patron wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 10:16 PM
Whenever i have the feeling people dont know what they say, i answer with: What is the dunning Kruger effect?
When i talk with coronaconspiracyfreaks, reichsbürger, xenophobe people, hippies, FFF-kiddies...
Or quoting Dieter Nuhr: "
if you have no idea, just shut up"
FreK wrote: I don't think

Ill help you.
Lets compare the 3 Offtanks.
Armor:
berzi studded
BM reinforce
merc chain

berzi and bm are same armorclass, same Af, same Absorb.
BM have shield, same as you, berzi not. So this disadvantage comes with better utility, besides midgard is melleerealm.
Merc has better armor, higher AF, higher Absorb.
This big advantage dont come out of nowhere. You have to pay for this.

PAY FOR THIS!

Otherwise mercs would be OP.

Plz read this, read this again. Think about it and say: yes, that makes sense, otherwise Merc would be the next dominator on the battlefield.
SO we can care for the next random "Person A" which comes soon to spread nonsense and beg for classenhancement.

I can almost taste the condescension, so I'll do my best not to reply with the same... hopefully.

On the topic of chain armor vs studded, in return for their superior armor, mercs fall short in the following areas:

-lower growth rate styles
-lower to hit bonus on all snares and some raw damage styles
-no access to a rear positional snare in any style line
-lack of an offensive class cooldown (dirty tricks vs Triple Wield/Berserk)
-lack of access to celerity on this patch level

Even if given better/equal damage styles and snares, they would still fall short of BMs in dmg simply due to class cooldown, and well short of Berserkers due to class cooldown and celerity. By your own argument... BM should wear leather, and Bers should wear cloth to make up for their damage output advantage. We'll just ignore savages, who make all other light tanks inferior in both damage output and defensive potential... before celerity.

This takes styles as compared to their current Styles1.0 state, before even considering the impact of Styles2.0. The Styles2.0 chains will be shortened to maximum two part chains, which is a large buff to both CD/LA if growth rates and procs remain similar scaling, as their respective side and rear chains greatly outperform anything available to DW.

But please continue, I am interested in what a mentalist/druid who no longer plays "thinks" about Albion mele styles.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 11:03 PM by gotwqqd

Let’s get on with the changes

Tue 28 Apr 2020 4:34 AM by Cadebrennus

FreK wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 10:56 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 10:13 PM
FreK wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:59 AM
I would gladly make a blood sacrifice to the German god of your choosing if you give alb-DW similar damage and utility to CD/LA.

Just learn to work with what you got.

I am, and will continue to do so whether or not anything is changed. This thread is asking for input, so I am giving it.

Patron wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 10:16 PM
Whenever i have the feeling people dont know what they say, i answer with: What is the dunning Kruger effect?
When i talk with coronaconspiracyfreaks, reichsbürger, xenophobe people, hippies, FFF-kiddies...
Or quoting Dieter Nuhr: "
if you have no idea, just shut up"
FreK wrote: I don't think

Ill help you.
Lets compare the 3 Offtanks.
Armor:
berzi studded
BM reinforce
merc chain

berzi and bm are same armorclass, same Af, same Absorb.
BM have shield, same as you, berzi not. So this disadvantage comes with better utility, besides midgard is melleerealm.
Merc has better armor, higher AF, higher Absorb.
This big advantage dont come out of nowhere. You have to pay for this.

PAY FOR THIS!

Otherwise mercs would be OP.

Plz read this, read this again. Think about it and say: yes, that makes sense, otherwise Merc would be the next dominator on the battlefield.
SO we can care for the next random "Person A" which comes soon to spread nonsense and beg for classenhancement.

I can almost taste the condescension, so I'll do my best not to reply with the same... hopefully.

On the topic of chain armor vs studded, in return for their superior armor, mercs fall short in the following areas:

-lower growth rate styles
-lower to hit bonus on all snares and some raw damage styles
-no access to a rear positional snare in any style line
-lack of an offensive class cooldown (dirty tricks vs Triple Wield/Berserk)
-lack of access to celerity on this patch level

Even if given better/equal damage styles and snares, they would still fall short of BMs in dmg simply due to class cooldown, and well short of Berserkers due to class cooldown and celerity. By your own argument... BM should wear leather, and Bers should wear cloth to make up for their damage output advantage. We'll just ignore savages, who make all other light tanks inferior in both damage output and defensive potential... before celerity.

This takes styles as compared to their current Styles1.0 state, before even considering the impact of Styles2.0. The Styles2.0 chains will be shortened to maximum two part chains, which is a large buff to both CD/LA if growth rates and procs remain similar scaling, as their respective side and rear chains greatly outperform anything available to DW.

But please continue, I am interested in what a mentalist/druid who no longer plays "thinks" about Albion mele styles.

I hope you don't think I was being condescending, because that wasn't my intent. Do Mercs have the perfect mix of everything? No, but neither do BMs. They lack good dueling styles, for example, whereas Mercs shine there, and Mercs can simply last longer in a fight regardless of the amount of opponents on them. Chain isn't affected by Dex/Qui debuffs (parry/block/evade are), and isn't affected by the number of opponents or the type of weapon (ie 2h/DW, aside from thrusting type).

I love playing my Merc. The only reason I shelved him is because I ended up hating playing him with shitty players. If I had a good regular group on Alb then I would be back in a heartbeat to play him as is, without any style changes. Again, it's about the players and not the game.

As a matter of fact, I think we should revert the changes we have thus far. For example, I think that changing some weapon lines reactionaries to "after evade" was a huge mistake. This coming from someone who plays a Blades Ranger too. I believe that in order to get something (better damage table vs Mid leather and Neutral to Alb) you should give up something (a 1 part evade stun). Giving people everything they want (evade stuns everywhere) led to a shit ton of whines about Blades/Slash users and now here we are with a 5% bonus to damage on certain armor types rather than 10%. This server is turning into a kindergarten where everyone's feelings are safe (about their classes) and no one can be hurt in the playground. That's bullshit. That's WoW, that's ESO, that's Live.

Tue 28 Apr 2020 6:50 AM by FreK

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 4:34 AM
I hope you don't think I was being condescending, because that wasn't my intent. Do Mercs have the perfect mix of everything? No, but neither do BMs. They lack good dueling styles, for example, whereas Mercs shine there, and Mercs can simply last longer in a fight regardless of the amount of opponents on them. Chain isn't affected by Dex/Qui debuffs (parry/block/evade are), and isn't affected by the number of opponents or the type of weapon (ie 2h/DW, aside from thrusting type).

I love playing my Merc. The only reason I shelved him is because I ended up hating playing him with shitty players. If I had a good regular group on Alb then I would be back in a heartbeat to play him as is, without any style changes. Again, it's about the players and not the game.

As a matter of fact, I think we should revert the changes we have thus far. For example, I think that changing some weapon lines reactionaries to "after evade" was a huge mistake. This coming from someone who plays a Blades Ranger too. I believe that in order to get something (better damage table vs Mid leather and Neutral to Alb) you should give up something (a 1 part evade stun). Giving people everything they want (evade stuns everywhere) led to a shit ton of whines about Blades/Slash users and now here we are with a 5% bonus to damage on certain armor types rather than 10%. This server is turning into a kindergarten where everyone's feelings are safe (about their classes) and no one can be hurt in the playground. That's bullshit. That's WoW, that's ESO, that's Live.

That statement was not in reply to your quoted text, or intended to be.

I understand that multiple people are hung up on "because mercs have chain", but should access to chain equate to being inferior in (almost?) every other metric? I do not agree. There is a reason several of the points I've listed where addressed by Styles2.0.

I'll take your word for their current toolkit being good for dueling, but this game is not balanced around 1v1 viability(outside of stealthers), and I do not ask that it should be.

As for the rest that reads like a different topic I am not invested in, cheers.

Tue 28 Apr 2020 7:27 AM by Patron

Ure right, Albion is casterrealm, so not surpring mellees have lower competences then compareable classes.

this game is not balanced around 1v1

Tue 28 Apr 2020 7:57 AM by Centenario

Can we get on with concrete proposal:
Style1 :
name, lvl, opening, growth, bonuses

The staff have said that it will be mostlf for 2+ style chains, an highly unlikely that they will put in realm balancing styles.

For sure let's take for example the LeftAxe 3-chain back style:
lvl 29 - Snowsquall - Behind target - Medium Attack bonus - 0.95 Growth Rate
lvl 44 - Icy Brillance - AfterSnowsuall - High Attack Bonus - 1.100 Growth Rate - Bleed Damage 9per4for40
lvl 50 - Aurora Borealis - After Icy Brillance - High Attack Bonus - 1.25 Growth rate - ++DD 95 Cold DMG

Very OP chain, hope they not gonna buff it and suddenly make a 2-part chain Snowsquall + Aurora Borealis, without the bleeding style... and keep those huge growth rates.

They said that back should be second lowest growth rate (after anytimer), and back-followup is after reactive.
So I shouldnt find any reactive below 1.100 growth rate, otherwise they'd have to buff all reactives.
Friar After-Evade : 0.9
Reactive follow up: 0.88
I mean there are too many example that this chain (left axe) will be nerfed heavily.
Either they will nerf some classes heavily or they will boost most classes heavily.
Or they will do nothing.

What about the Sword Taunt style with +15 to hit bonus and a growth rate of 0.59 endurance cost 10 and defense -10
Compared to:
Slash taunt style with +0 to hit bonus same malus and growth and endo cost.

Isn't that style a little OP, meaning it will powercreep every other style just for the +hit bonus, with good average growth.
Most taunt style have +to hit bonus, why only slash taunt has none?

jwalker wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 10:28 AM
Viele denken das Doppelfrost ein sehr guter Anytimer ist. Das stimmt aber nicht mal, der beste Anytimer in Mid ist der Schwert Taunt! Wieso? Dies erkennt man, sobald mal die "you miss" Rate mit in den damage einbezieht. Sagen wir mal mit Doppelfrost macht Ihr 100 Waffen Schaden und 75 Style schaden, mit Draw Out 100 Waffe + 59 Style schaden. Nun werdet Ihr aber mit Doppelfrost auch 11% eurer Schläge verfehlen, mit Draw Out nur 1%. Berechnen wir nun also die nicht Treffer Rate mit ein ergibt sich ein Durchschnittsschaden für Doppelfrost von 155 und für Draw Out von 157. Kommt nun Celerity dazu wird Draw Out sogar noch mehr Durchschnittsschaden machen, da der Anteil des Styleschadens sinkt, der to hit aber bleibt.

Translates to:

Many think double frost is a very good Anytimer. But that's not even true, the best Anytimer in Mid is the Taunt sword! How so? This can be seen as soon as the "you miss" rate is included in the damage. Let's say with double frost you do 100 weapons damage and 75 style damage, with Draw Out 100 weapon + 59 style damage. Now you will also miss 11% of your strokes with double frost, with Draw Out only 1%. So if we calculate the non-hit rate, the average damage for double frost is 155 and for draw-out 157. If Celerity is added, draw-out will do even more average damage, since the proportion of style damage decreases, but remains to hit ."

Tue 28 Apr 2020 8:22 AM by Cadebrennus

FreK wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 6:50 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 4:34 AM
I hope you don't think I was being condescending, because that wasn't my intent. Do Mercs have the perfect mix of everything? No, but neither do BMs. They lack good dueling styles, for example, whereas Mercs shine there, and Mercs can simply last longer in a fight regardless of the amount of opponents on them. Chain isn't affected by Dex/Qui debuffs (parry/block/evade are), and isn't affected by the number of opponents or the type of weapon (ie 2h/DW, aside from thrusting type).

I love playing my Merc. The only reason I shelved him is because I ended up hating playing him with shitty players. If I had a good regular group on Alb then I would be back in a heartbeat to play him as is, without any style changes. Again, it's about the players and not the game.

As a matter of fact, I think we should revert the changes we have thus far. For example, I think that changing some weapon lines reactionaries to "after evade" was a huge mistake. This coming from someone who plays a Blades Ranger too. I believe that in order to get something (better damage table vs Mid leather and Neutral to Alb) you should give up something (a 1 part evade stun). Giving people everything they want (evade stuns everywhere) led to a shit ton of whines about Blades/Slash users and now here we are with a 5% bonus to damage on certain armor types rather than 10%. This server is turning into a kindergarten where everyone's feelings are safe (about their classes) and no one can be hurt in the playground. That's bullshit. That's WoW, that's ESO, that's Live.

That statement was not in reply to your quoted text, or intended to be.

I understand that multiple people are hung up on "because mercs have chain", but should access to chain equate to being inferior in (almost?) every other metric? I do not agree. There is a reason several of the points I've listed where addressed by Styles2.0.

I'll take your word for their current toolkit being good for dueling, but this game is not balanced around 1v1 viability(outside of stealthers), and I do not ask that it should be.

As for the rest that reads like a different topic I am not invested in, cheers.

I personally like having chain. I prefer a Merc over a BM in this regard alone. It allows me to take more punishment than a BM or Merc can take, particularly when wall climbing and attacking on the parapets. Mercs are inferior in only one regard: a timed mechanic for more damage. Outside of that timed mechanic Mercs are equal to BMs and Zerks in terms of damage output. As a matter of fact, my thrust Merc puts out more consistent damage thanks to the offhand usable DA proc thrust weapon. No such equivalent exists in Hib or Mid. Disclaimer: I am aware of DA proccing 1h weapons on Hib and Mid, but to my knowledge they are not offhand usable.

As to the rest, yes it was not particular to the Light Tank balance question, but intended to address style balance in general.

Tue 28 Apr 2020 9:22 AM by easytoremember

Ah -------------

Can you add a small growthrate to detaunt styles?
Same with the lv2 styles most weapon lines get. They effectively add 0 damage until around lv10

ofc don't mirror them intra realm or across realms should it get considered. Like Axe/Hammer/Sword all getting .08 growthrate. That's boring

Tue 28 Apr 2020 10:32 AM by inoeth

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 9:22 AM
Ah -------------

Can you add a small growthrate to detaunt styles?
Same with the lv2 styles most weapon lines get. They effectively add 0 damage until around lv10

ofc don't mirror them intra realm or across realms should it get considered. Like Axe/Hammer/Sword all getting .08 growthrate. That's boring

in like 20 min you are lvl6 and can get the taunt...

Tue 28 Apr 2020 11:58 AM by FreK

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 8:22 AM
I personally like having chain. I prefer a Merc over a BM in this regard alone. It allows me to take more punishment than a BM or Merc can take, particularly when wall climbing and attacking on the parapets. Mercs are inferior in only one regard: a timed mechanic for more damage. Outside of that timed mechanic Mercs are equal to BMs and Zerks in terms of damage output. As a matter of fact, my thrust Merc puts out more consistent damage thanks to the offhand usable DA proc thrust weapon. No such equivalent exists in Hib or Mid. Disclaimer: I am aware of DA proccing 1h weapons on Hib and Mid, but to my knowledge they are not offhand usable.

As to the rest, yes it was not particular to the Light Tank balance question, but intended to address style balance in general.

I am glad you enjoy your Merc, but while the subject of "if" you feel certain aspects should be addressed or not "because chain armor" is a perfectly acceptable topic of opinion, there are many short comings other than just the class cooldown. Those are facts with hard numbers behind them, and not opinion.

I am not advocating that all aspects be addressed (celerity to all realms would be nice

). I am just pointing out the extreme snare disparity, and focusing on Merc because the DW line was specifically mentioned in the original post as something that may or may not even be addressed. DW/Alb wasn't the only line to benefit from the Styles2.0 changes. There are some disparities in Hib/Mid that also exist, but not to the same degree as DW/Alb light tank snares(in my opinion, I have not researched all styles with a "complete" comparison as I did with snares).

As Centenario has explained better than I have, to-hit-bonus has a powerful influence on effectiveness and sustained damage that is often overlooked. (sorry, I had a detailed hit bonus comparison for snares in my wall of text that was lost the other night)

Tue 28 Apr 2020 12:00 PM by gotwqqd

IMO
Keep 3 part changes
Fix if needed with poor hit rates or poor damage return

4 part chains can be modified to 3/1 or 2/2

Tue 28 Apr 2020 12:18 PM by flabeldu

FreK wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 10:56 PM
I can almost taste the condescension, so I'll do my best not to reply with the same... hopefully.

On the topic of chain armor vs studded, in return for their superior armor, mercs fall short in the following areas:

-lower growth rate styles
-lower to hit bonus on all snares and some raw damage styles
-no access to a rear positional snare in any style line
-lack of an offensive class cooldown (dirty tricks vs Triple Wield/Berserk)
-lack of access to celerity on this patch level

Even if given better/equal damage styles and snares, they would still fall short of BMs in dmg simply due to class cooldown, and well short of Berserkers due to class cooldown and celerity. By your own argument... BM should wear leather, and Bers should wear cloth to make up for their damage output advantage. We'll just ignore savages, who make all other light tanks inferior in both damage output and defensive potential... before celerity.

This takes styles as compared to their current Styles1.0 state, before even considering the impact of Styles2.0. The Styles2.0 chains will be shortened to maximum two part chains, which is a large buff to both CD/LA if growth rates and procs remain similar scaling, as their respective side and rear chains greatly outperform anything available to DW.

But please continue, I am interested in what a mentalist/druid who no longer plays "thinks" about Albion mele styles.

Growthrates as on https://playphoenix.online/charplan

Celtic Dual side chain: 0.77 ---> 1.00 ---> 1.25
Dual Wield side chain: 0.85 ---> 1.05

Other than the third part of the side stun chain (which Dual Wield lacks), Celtic Dual doesn't have better growth rates. In fact, DW has slightly better growth rates on the parry chain as well as the back chain.

Celtic Dual back chain: 0.66 ---> 0.88/0.88
Dual Wield back chain: 0.69 ---> 0.92/0.93

Celtic Dual parry chain: 0.88 ---> 0.88 ---> 0.88
Dual Wield parry chain: 0.91 ---> 0.90

Also, if you give Dual Wield the utility of Celtic Dual, then you have to give Celtic Dual a frontal style like Dual Shadows and give Blademasters anytimers like Amethyst Slash --> Diamond Slash or Bludgeon --> Contusion.

BTW, a probably often overlooked disadvantage to Blademasters is that Hibernia have a lower availability of good Damage Add and Absorption buffs than both Berserkers and Mercenaries, even if simply because the spec lines that have those are very unpopular in PVP. Wizards get purple damage add in their baseline!

Tue 28 Apr 2020 12:54 PM by Patron

Thanks Flabeldu!
So, can we care for for the next random "Person A"?
Quoting myself:

A: i want this because B have it to and i have it not
B: You have it
A: Yeah, but i have not the same
B: yeah, but this variance is because of Y
A: Yeah, but ... but... <silence>

This is the neverending story of kiddies of Daoc.
So annoying. Problem is, A change hourwise randomly...

Edit: And staff tend to hear on players feedback... SO ANNOYING

Tue 28 Apr 2020 12:55 PM by FreK

flabeldu wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 12:18 PM
Celtic Dual side chain: 0.77 ---> 1.00 ---> 1.25
Dual Wield side chain: 0.85 ---> 1.05

The CD 3 part chain starts with a 10% to-hit style(10-10-15% over chain) and has higher average growth rate, x+x+x/3 vs x+x/2
The DW 2 part chain starts with a 0% to-hit style(0-10% over chain)

I don't have details on the server's style chain penalty, but with a 10% higher chance for DW to simply miss the beginning of the chain and tryign to only compare two of the three part chain... your statement is false.

flabeldu wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 12:18 PM
Celtic Dual back chain: 0.66 ---> 0.88/0.88
Dual Wield back chain: 0.69 ---> 0.92/0.93

This is correct, Hib gets an arguably superior chain with a snare in exchange for what is probably less than a 5damage penalty.(similar to-hit-bonuses)

flabeldu wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 12:18 PM
Celtic Dual parry chain: 0.88 ---> 0.88 ---> 0.88
Dual Wield parry chain: 0.91 ---> 0.90

This is misleading, as the CD line has 15% to-hit vs DW's 5% to-hit on the first style, while again making a minimal trade of ~5dmg for 10% more chance to hit.

flabeldu wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 12:18 PM
Also, if you give Dual Wield the utility of Celtic Dual, then you have to give Celtic Dual a frontal style like Dual Shadows and give Blademasters anytimers like Amethyst Slash --> Diamond Slash or Bludgeon --> Contusion.

BTW, a probably often overlooked disadvantage to Blademasters is that Hibernia have a lower availability of good Damage Add and Absorption buffs than both Berserkers and Mercenaries, even if simply because the spec lines that have those are very unpopular in PVP. Wizards get purple damage add in their baseline!

This part is mostly dealing with styles outside of DW/snares, which was my original focus, but I do appreciate the focus on facts with the previous points.

As for your other opinions, I have stated there are disparities that exist beyond snares. While I agree hib has less access to casted damage add, this veers farther off topic from styles than I care to go.

Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:20 PM by Centenario

flabeldu wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 12:18 PM
Growthrates as on https://playphoenix.online/charplan
Celtic Dual side chain: 0.77 ---> 1.00 ---> 1.25
Dual Wield side chain: 0.85 ---> 1.05
[...]

I would compare instead the back snare to the side snare:

BM:
8 cw: Snow Shower, back snare, +10 hit, +0 def, 0.65 growth, 10endo, 12s snare
15 cw: Thunderstorm: followup, +10 hit, +15 def, 0.88 growth, 5 endo, detaunt
to
Merc:
29 dw: Flank, side snare +0 hit, +10 def, 0.85 growth, 10 endo, 12s snare
39 dw: Shadow rain, followup, +10 hit, +5 def, 1.05 growth, 10 endo, haste debuff 20s 34 value

If we compare them, we can see that the developers felt that changing from back to side is worth 0.20 growth rate, if we follow that logic to the chain, then shadow rain should have 1.08 growth rate instead of 1.05 or, thunderstorm should be 0.85 instead of 0.88.
It all depends on how you alue to have +10def or haste debuff...

Anyway, I don't know BM that much, is that 3-style chain from side used a lot?

If you want to standardize growth rate just do: [DISCLAIMER: just a prototype system, not contractual]
0.45 for anytimer
0.55 for back
0.65 for anytimer follow-up
0.75 for side
0.85 for back follow-up
0.95 for reactive
1.05 for side follow-up
1.15 for reactive follow-up
These are for +0 hit, +0def, no effects, 10 endo cost, basic lines.
For each +10 hit bonus, decrease the growth by 0.10
For each 5 endo cost increase/decrease, increase/decrease the growth by 0.05
For each snare effect, decrease the growth by 0.01 per 1 seconds (max -0.2)
For each 5 def increase or decrease, increase/decrease the growth by 0.025
For spec lines give a bonus growth of 0.1

If we then take the merc 2-style chain:
29dw should have growth of:
0.75-0.12-0.05+0.1=0.68
39dw should have growth of:
1.05-0.1-0.025+0.1=0.1025

and for the BM:
8cw should have growth of:
0.55-0.1-0.12+0.1=0.43
15cw should have growth of:
0.85-0.1-0.075-0.05+0.1=0.725

With such a system we can keep the differences between realms, and the flavor of the classes, but at least balance the growth rates. Frankly I don't have enough RvR experience to know exactly what weight to give to each differences, maybe endo cost has been designed without endo pots in mind. Maybe a 4sec stun is not good, or a bleed is also not good for CC so it increases the growth rate (to balance it).
This system needs a little tweaking, but I believe is how it should be done, just to remove some outliers.

Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:32 PM by Centenario

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:20 PM
If you want to standardize growth rate just do: [DISCLAIMER: just a prototype system, not contractual]
0.45 for anytimer
0.55 for back
0.65 for anytimer follow-up
0.75 for side
0.85 for back follow-up
0.95 for reactive
1.05 for side follow-up
1.15 for reactive follow-up
1.25 for anytimer 3rd chain
1.35 for back 3rd chain
1.45 for side 3rd chain
1.55 for reactive 3rd chain
These are for +0 hit, +0def, no effects, 10 endo cost, basic lines.
For each +10 hit bonus, decrease the growth by 0.10
For each 5 endo cost increase/decrease, increase/decrease the growth by 0.05
For each snare effect, decrease the growth by 0.01 per 1 seconds (max -0.2)
For each 5 def increase or decrease, increase/decrease the growth by 0.025
For spec lines give a bonus growth of 0.1

If I use this system for the 3-style chain of BM:
Icestorm: 0.75-0.1=0.65 instead of 0.77
Tempest: 1.05-0.1 = 0.95 instead of 0.1
Supernova: 1.45-0.15-0.025=1.275 instead of 1.25

Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:35 PM by FreK

Very well thought out post Centenario. Are these the general rules followed by Styles2.0 or a personal idea?

Tue 28 Apr 2020 3:22 PM by flabeldu

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:20 PM
flabeldu wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 12:18 PM
Growthrates as on https://playphoenix.online/charplan
Celtic Dual side chain: 0.77 ---> 1.00 ---> 1.25
Dual Wield side chain: 0.85 ---> 1.05
[...]

I would compare instead the back snare to the side snare:

BM:
8 cw: Snow Shower, back snare, +10 hit, +0 def, 0.65 growth, 10endo, 12s snare
15 cw: Thunderstorm: followup, +10 hit, +15 def, 0.88 growth, 5 endo, detaunt
to
Merc:
29 dw: Flank, side snare +0 hit, +10 def, 0.85 growth, 10 endo, 12s snare
39 dw: Shadow rain, followup, +10 hit, +5 def, 1.05 growth, 10 endo, haste debuff 20s 34 value

If we compare them, we can see that the developers felt that changing from back to side is worth 0.20 growth rate, if we follow that logic to the chain, then shadow rain should have 1.08 growth rate instead of 1.05 or, thunderstorm should be 0.85 instead of 0.88.
It all depends on how you alue to have +10def or haste debuff...

Anyway, I don't know BM that much, is that 3-style chain from side used a lot?

If you want to standardize growth rate just do: [DISCLAIMER: just a prototype system, not contractual]
0.45 for anytimer
0.55 for back
0.65 for anytimer follow-up
0.75 for side
0.85 for back follow-up
0.95 for reactive
1.05 for side follow-up
1.15 for reactive follow-up
These are for +0 hit, +0def, no effects, 10 endo cost, basic lines.
For each +10 hit bonus, decrease the growth by 0.10
For each 5 endo cost increase/decrease, increase/decrease the growth by 0.05
For each snare effect, decrease the growth by 0.01 per 1 seconds (max -0.2)
For each 5 def increase or decrease, increase/decrease the growth by 0.025
For spec lines give a bonus growth of 0.1

If we then take the merc 2-style chain:
29dw should have growth of:
0.75-0.12-0.05+0.1=0.68
39dw should have growth of:
1.05-0.1-0.025+0.1=0.1025

and for the BM:
8cw should have growth of:
0.55-0.1-0.12+0.1=0.43
15cw should have growth of:
0.85-0.1-0.075-0.05+0.1=0.725

With such a system we can keep the differences between realms, and the flavor of the classes, but at least balance the growth rates. Frankly I don't have enough RvR experience to know exactly what weight to give to each differences, maybe endo cost has been designed without endo pots in mind. Maybe a 4sec stun is not good, or a bleed is also not good for CC so it increases the growth rate (to balance it).
This system needs a little tweaking, but I believe is how it should be done, just to remove some outliers.

I don't feel like going into too much detail at the moment, perhaps another time. I merely directly compared growth rates of postionals and reactioneries with each other side by side, one to one, because it looked like it was claimed that CD had superior growth rates to DW, which is false. I don't actually think we should compare side by side like that. Far more goes into balancing (which is, of course, not perfect) than merely one to one, side by side comparison of styles and chains.

Maybe the discrepancy, or shall we say imbalance, that you point out, is there because mythic didn't balance styles side by side, one to one, style for style, but instead tried to balance according to overall picture of the class and the entire realm? Zerkers don't have flurry or shield spec, but they do have Vendo, and LA has superior growth rates to both DW and CD. Differences between ratios of growth rates to + to hit bonus to position, etc. between DW and CD are less obvious than lacking shield spec, but they may not be entirely without reason.

It may be far more complicated than what you show here. One must be very careful with such changes.

Tue 28 Apr 2020 4:24 PM by Centenario

FreK wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:35 PM
Very well thought out post Centenario. Are these the general rules followed by Styles2.0 or a personal idea?

flabeldu wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 3:22 PM
It may be far more complicated than what you show here. One must be very careful with such changes.

This is just some half a**ed brainstorming, i have never tried style 2.0, I left DAoC at around ToA times, never tried catacombs.
I am sure they must have used something similar, as it is a simple design for a system. For sure it would be more complicated.
In my opinion, when the devs would have to think about it (about now) they would be designing something like that to start from.

I am not suggesting to change things, I am against any change to classic DAoC, but in the eventuality that there is a change to be made, I'd rather give my input to attempt to steer things to something reasonable, instead of saying "No" and then not have time to give my opinion when changes are made.

I agree with user PATRON, that each realm should keep its flavor, and that realm should not be mirrors of each other. Its a big thing that differentiates DAoC from the new MMOs. I also think its fun to find the peculiarities of each class and try to take advantage of them. The problem is that I think the devs want us to help them list all those peculiarities to double check that there is not too much of a disadvantage/advantage, such as big 3 style chains that are very unpractical or anytimers with too big bonuses, etc...

I would prefer if users said: I know that BM has a strong back chain, but it is something I think should be kept, as it is class identity. Instead of users saying, no BM have nothing that needs tweaking, please dont change anything.
The first user is giving knowledge that is usable, while the second user is obviously lying and his comment is not usable.

Tue 28 Apr 2020 10:33 PM by Astaa

A solo hero POV;

I logged on to live yesterday to have a look around and the melee styles have been completely gutted. If you don't play slam (hope purge is down) then switch to LW or CS positional, positional, positional then don't bother. Please please please do not turn phoenix into that crap. I'm currently 50CS, 50parry on my hero and loving it, I might switch to LW for more variety once I am high enough RR to roam properly. Back when I played live using styles vs enemy block etc, made for some very varied fights and it felt like playing properly gave results.

I feel styles, especially reactives are just fine as they are. There are far more pressing issues about the game that need looking at. Archer damage, necro abs and LT value (in pvp) stun locking caba pets, mincers, ffs, mincers, they can't kill me, all I can do is kill their pet and watch them disappear over the horizon, boring for them and me I'm sure.

Please lay out what exactly what you want to do, per class and ask for input (and actually listening!) before potentially destroying several classes.

Wed 29 Apr 2020 1:49 PM by flabeldu

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 4:24 PM
This is just some half a**ed brainstorming,

No need for that tone. I definitely didn't give as much effort as you. I wasn't trying to brainstorm. I already admitted as much early in my post. I didn't come here with the intent to get dragged into it too much. I understand you are disappointed. I just decided to add 2 cents when I saw something in a post (not yours) that seemed obviously wrong, and decided to add some overall perspective. I'm probably going to read the replies to this post, but it will be my own last post.

Admittedly, regardless of whether or not some large changes would make the game more "fair", I haven't been on this server for very long and came here first and foremost for DAoC and nostalgia, which live doesn't offer at all, I noticed. I hope that whatever changes will be done don't deviate too far. As of now, they do not. Big style changes could move it into that direction for me, depending on how they are done and how "mirrory" and boring they are.

PS: Little personal anecdote, I got killed by several Skalds yesterday, and it was the same story mostly: I chop them down to low health, they CC me or abuse SOS until they can pop first aid back to almost full health and just cheese me to death. It actually amused me. It's very hard to counter that as a melee. I didn't rage, it amused me. Just like desperately trying to kill Bonedancer pets before you inevitably die. It gives me a bit of a "good old times" feel even when I'm on the receiving end.

Wed 29 Apr 2020 4:33 PM by inoeth

ETA on style changes?

Wed 29 Apr 2020 4:58 PM by ColdHands

Please don't change styles without extensive testing and fully vetting the repercussions.

Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:19 PM by inoeth

ColdHands wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 4:58 PM
Please don't change styles without extensive testing and fully vetting the repercussions.

thank you for saying this, im pretty sure they would have published it without testing if you didnt say it

Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:21 PM by Riac

id also like a rough eta, im putting off respecing and temping till they arrive. should i jsut go ahead and retemp? we talking months or weeks or days?

Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:28 PM by ColdHands

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:19 PM
ColdHands wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 4:58 PM
Please don't change styles without extensive testing and fully vetting the repercussions.

thank you for saying this, im pretty sure they would have published it without testing if you didnt say it

This is bigger than other QOL changes, a style overhaul would make this a completely different game across the board, and It's worth reiterating that something of this magnitude will have very serious implications. I don't recall any combat or class changes after beta that have had any mass testing from the player base. This change is too huge to just have devs hitting each other on the test server without extensive input and testing from the community.

You can paper daoc until you're blue in the face, but until tested for hundreds of hours it means nothing.

Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:53 PM by inoeth

ColdHands wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:28 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:19 PM
ColdHands wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 4:58 PM
Please don't change styles without extensive testing and fully vetting the repercussions.

thank you for saying this, im pretty sure they would have published it without testing if you didnt say it

This is bigger than other QOL changes, a style overhaul would make this a completely different game across the board, and It's worth reiterating that something of this magnitude will have very serious implications. I don't recall any combat or class changes after beta that have had any mass testing from the player base. This change is too huge to just have devs hitting each other on the test server without extensive input and testing from the community.

You can paper daoc until you're blue in the face, but until tested for hundreds of hours it means nothing.

well what i wanted to say ist that i highly doubt that the develoders of this servers will introduce something not well thought through, at least in the past that was not the case.

anyway still i also highly doubt it needs "hundrets of hours" of testing. and i also dont think that the changes will have a huge impact on balance... all ppl who claim that only fear that they get rid off their fkn unbalanced too powerfull styles. after the change you will still be very powerfull but must be aware that some enemys have it too. fair game or?

btw plz remove leviathan

Wed 29 Apr 2020 7:21 PM by ColdHands

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:53 PM
ColdHands wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:28 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:19 PM
thank you for saying this, im pretty sure they would have published it without testing if you didnt say it

This is bigger than other QOL changes, a style overhaul would make this a completely different game across the board, and It's worth reiterating that something of this magnitude will have very serious implications. I don't recall any combat or class changes after beta that have had any mass testing from the player base. This change is too huge to just have devs hitting each other on the test server without extensive input and testing from the community.

You can paper daoc until you're blue in the face, but until tested for hundreds of hours it means nothing.

well what i wanted to say ist that i highly doubt that the develoders of this servers will introduce something not well thought through, at least in the past that was not the case.

anyway still i also highly doubt it needs "hundrets of hours" of testing. and i also dont think that the changes will have a huge impact on balance... all ppl who claim that only fear that they get rid off their fkn unbalanced too powerfull styles. after the change you will still be very powerfull but must be aware that some enemys have it too. fair game or?

btw plz remove leviathan

Hundreds of hours isn't very much time and is easily achievable with higher number of testers. 50 people for 10 hours is 500 hours. I think hundreds of hours is a bare minimum to consider the implications of differences in classes, armor types, group roles, RA synergies, racial resist, other available spec lines etc.

Levi (.82 with 153 dd) is the perfect example, should a class with slam have the same growth rate positional as a class with no anytime stun. i.e. berserker rear chain (1st .95, 2nd 1.1, 3rd 1.25). Imagine Snowsquall and Levi with same growth rate (Rear anytime) It would be absurd. Consider BM who also has slam, their side chain is nasty (1st .77, 2nd 1.0, 3rd 1.25). 2 very important factors are in play here. If an enemy gives a berserker their back they volunteer the high growth rate style, however bm and reaver can force it with slam. Nothing here is mirrored and as such styles and growth rates should not be, and not to mention that these are just some of the easiest examples to point out.

Should not the uniqueness of the class be factored into what their over all damage looks like and not just flattened across the board? There are so many implications to consider with each class that trying to even the playing field would actually grossly skew it in favor of classes that have other synergistic abilities.

I am not by any means saying that styles don't need to be looked at, but maybe its slightly more complicated and requires some real work and thought to get it correct.

Thu 30 Apr 2020 12:52 AM by Cadebrennus

ColdHands wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 7:21 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:53 PM
ColdHands wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:28 PM
This is bigger than other QOL changes, a style overhaul would make this a completely different game across the board, and It's worth reiterating that something of this magnitude will have very serious implications. I don't recall any combat or class changes after beta that have had any mass testing from the player base. This change is too huge to just have devs hitting each other on the test server without extensive input and testing from the community.

You can paper daoc until you're blue in the face, but until tested for hundreds of hours it means nothing.

well what i wanted to say ist that i highly doubt that the develoders of this servers will introduce something not well thought through, at least in the past that was not the case.

anyway still i also highly doubt it needs "hundrets of hours" of testing. and i also dont think that the changes will have a huge impact on balance... all ppl who claim that only fear that they get rid off their fkn unbalanced too powerfull styles. after the change you will still be very powerfull but must be aware that some enemys have it too. fair game or?

btw plz remove leviathan

Hundreds of hours isn't very much time and is easily achievable with higher number of testers. 50 people for 10 hours is 500 hours. I think hundreds of hours is a bare minimum to consider the implications of differences in classes, armor types, group roles, RA synergies, racial resist, other available spec lines etc.

Levi (.82 with 153 dd) is the perfect example, should a class with slam have the same growth rate positional as a class with no anytime stun. i.e. berserker rear chain (1st .95, 2nd 1.1, 3rd 1.25). Imagine Snowsquall and Levi with same growth rate (Rear anytime) It would be absurd. Consider BM who also has slam, their side chain is nasty (1st .77, 2nd 1.0, 3rd 1.25). 2 very important factors are in play here. If an enemy gives a berserker their back they volunteer the high growth rate style, however bm and reaver can force it with slam. Nothing here is mirrored and as such styles and growth rates should not be, and not to mention that these are just some of the easiest examples to point out.

Should not the uniqueness of the class be factored into what their over all damage looks like and not just flattened across the board? There are so many implications to consider with each class that trying to even the playing field would actually grossly skew it in favor of classes that have other synergistic abilities.

I am not by any means saying that styles don't need to be looked at, but maybe its slightly more complicated and requires some real work and thought to get it correct.

Because DAOC isn't a turn-based game, and is somewhat twitch-based game any Light Tank player with even a modicum of skill can pull off any positional style at least some of the time. If they rely on Slam to do it every time then they are completely hosed when that target is stun immune, and again, that is a failing on the part of the player, not the game.

Thu 30 Apr 2020 1:28 AM by ColdHands

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 12:52 AM
ColdHands wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 7:21 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:53 PM
well what i wanted to say ist that i highly doubt that the develoders of this servers will introduce something not well thought through, at least in the past that was not the case.

anyway still i also highly doubt it needs "hundrets of hours" of testing. and i also dont think that the changes will have a huge impact on balance... all ppl who claim that only fear that they get rid off their fkn unbalanced too powerfull styles. after the change you will still be very powerfull but must be aware that some enemys have it too. fair game or?

btw plz remove leviathan

Hundreds of hours isn't very much time and is easily achievable with higher number of testers. 50 people for 10 hours is 500 hours. I think hundreds of hours is a bare minimum to consider the implications of differences in classes, armor types, group roles, RA synergies, racial resist, other available spec lines etc.

Levi (.82 with 153 dd) is the perfect example, should a class with slam have the same growth rate positional as a class with no anytime stun. i.e. berserker rear chain (1st .95, 2nd 1.1, 3rd 1.25). Imagine Snowsquall and Levi with same growth rate (Rear anytime) It would be absurd. Consider BM who also has slam, their side chain is nasty (1st .77, 2nd 1.0, 3rd 1.25). 2 very important factors are in play here. If an enemy gives a berserker their back they volunteer the high growth rate style, however bm and reaver can force it with slam. Nothing here is mirrored and as such styles and growth rates should not be, and not to mention that these are just some of the easiest examples to point out.

Should not the uniqueness of the class be factored into what their over all damage looks like and not just flattened across the board? There are so many implications to consider with each class that trying to even the playing field would actually grossly skew it in favor of classes that have other synergistic abilities.

I am not by any means saying that styles don't need to be looked at, but maybe its slightly more complicated and requires some real work and thought to get it correct.

Because DAOC isn't a turn-based game, and is somewhat twitch-based game any Light Tank player with even a modicum of skill can pull off any positional style at least some of the time. If they rely on Slam to do it every time then they are completely hosed when that target is stun immune, and again, that is a failing on the part of the player, not the game.

You have side stepped the entire point.

Thu 30 Apr 2020 1:35 AM by Cadebrennus

ColdHands wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 1:28 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 12:52 AM
ColdHands wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 7:21 PM
Hundreds of hours isn't very much time and is easily achievable with higher number of testers. 50 people for 10 hours is 500 hours. I think hundreds of hours is a bare minimum to consider the implications of differences in classes, armor types, group roles, RA synergies, racial resist, other available spec lines etc.

Levi (.82 with 153 dd) is the perfect example, should a class with slam have the same growth rate positional as a class with no anytime stun. i.e. berserker rear chain (1st .95, 2nd 1.1, 3rd 1.25). Imagine Snowsquall and Levi with same growth rate (Rear anytime) It would be absurd. Consider BM who also has slam, their side chain is nasty (1st .77, 2nd 1.0, 3rd 1.25). 2 very important factors are in play here. If an enemy gives a berserker their back they volunteer the high growth rate style, however bm and reaver can force it with slam. Nothing here is mirrored and as such styles and growth rates should not be, and not to mention that these are just some of the easiest examples to point out.

Should not the uniqueness of the class be factored into what their over all damage looks like and not just flattened across the board? There are so many implications to consider with each class that trying to even the playing field would actually grossly skew it in favor of classes that have other synergistic abilities.

I am not by any means saying that styles don't need to be looked at, but maybe its slightly more complicated and requires some real work and thought to get it correct.

Because DAOC isn't a turn-based game, and is somewhat twitch-based game any Light Tank player with even a modicum of skill can pull off any positional style at least some of the time. If they rely on Slam to do it every time then they are completely hosed when that target is stun immune, and again, that is a failing on the part of the player, not the game.

You have side stepped the entire point.

lol too easy 😂

Thu 30 Apr 2020 2:57 AM by easytoremember

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 10:32 AM
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 9:22 AM
Can you add a small growthrate to detaunt styles?
Same with the lv2 styles most weapon lines get. They effectively add 0 damage until around lv10

ofc don't mirror them intra realm or across realms should it get considered. Like Axe/Hammer/Sword all getting .08 growthrate. That's boring

in like 20 min you are lvl6 and can get the taunt...

At 2-5 the style just consumes your endurance for no reason
Anyone speccing other lines 6-9 get the taunt style a bit later

Thu 30 Apr 2020 4:20 AM by gotwqqd

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 2:57 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 10:32 AM
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 9:22 AM
Can you add a small growthrate to detaunt styles?
Same with the lv2 styles most weapon lines get. They effectively add 0 damage until around lv10

ofc don't mirror them intra realm or across realms should it get considered. Like Axe/Hammer/Sword all getting .08 growthrate. That's boring

in like 20 min you are lvl6 and can get the taunt...
At 2-5 the style just consumes your endurance for no reason
Anyone speccing other lines 6-9 get the taunt style a bit later

I rarely even train until I’m at least level 5
I just auto attack
If I do train it’s not for the styles or it’s a line with buffs

Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:11 AM by inoeth

ColdHands wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 7:21 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:53 PM
ColdHands wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:28 PM
This is bigger than other QOL changes, a style overhaul would make this a completely different game across the board, and It's worth reiterating that something of this magnitude will have very serious implications. I don't recall any combat or class changes after beta that have had any mass testing from the player base. This change is too huge to just have devs hitting each other on the test server without extensive input and testing from the community.

You can paper daoc until you're blue in the face, but until tested for hundreds of hours it means nothing.

well what i wanted to say ist that i highly doubt that the develoders of this servers will introduce something not well thought through, at least in the past that was not the case.

anyway still i also highly doubt it needs "hundrets of hours" of testing. and i also dont think that the changes will have a huge impact on balance... all ppl who claim that only fear that they get rid off their fkn unbalanced too powerfull styles. after the change you will still be very powerfull but must be aware that some enemys have it too. fair game or?

btw plz remove leviathan

Hundreds of hours isn't very much time and is easily achievable with higher number of testers. 50 people for 10 hours is 500 hours. I think hundreds of hours is a bare minimum to consider the implications of differences in classes, armor types, group roles, RA synergies, racial resist, other available spec lines etc.

Levi (.82 with 153 dd) is the perfect example, should a class with slam have the same growth rate positional as a class with no anytime stun. i.e. berserker rear chain (1st .95, 2nd 1.1, 3rd 1.25). Imagine Snowsquall and Levi with same growth rate (Rear anytime) It would be absurd. Consider BM who also has slam, their side chain is nasty (1st .77, 2nd 1.0, 3rd 1.25). 2 very important factors are in play here. If an enemy gives a berserker their back they volunteer the high growth rate style, however bm and reaver can force it with slam. Nothing here is mirrored and as such styles and growth rates should not be, and not to mention that these are just some of the easiest examples to point out.

Should not the uniqueness of the class be factored into what their over all damage looks like and not just flattened across the board? There are so many implications to consider with each class that trying to even the playing field would actually grossly skew it in favor of classes that have other synergistic abilities.

I am not by any means saying that styles don't need to be looked at, but maybe its slightly more complicated and requires some real work and thought to get it correct.

i dont think its like someone getting bumped from a .4 gr to a 1.2 gr
afaiu gr will be modiefied slightly to match their chains so you have bigger gr the more you get into the chain which is atm not the case
and also maybe some conveniance changes for example attack speed reduce taken from an evade chain into an anytime chain or the other way around

these are all no major changes which turn weak classes into dmg dealers

ppl, have no fear! have faith!

ps: plz remove levi

Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:14 AM by inoeth

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 2:57 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 10:32 AM
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 9:22 AM
Can you add a small growthrate to detaunt styles?
Same with the lv2 styles most weapon lines get. They effectively add 0 damage until around lv10

ofc don't mirror them intra realm or across realms should it get considered. Like Axe/Hammer/Sword all getting .08 growthrate. That's boring

in like 20 min you are lvl6 and can get the taunt...
At 2-5 the style just consumes your endurance for no reason
Anyone speccing other lines 6-9 get the taunt style a bit later

i always spec what brings most dmg and then respec as soon as taunt is available. in migard i usually spec sword at the beginning and later respec to hammer
yeah the first style sucks but only for 20 min then you never have to bother about that again ;D

Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:42 AM by SlowMo

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:11 AM
these are all no major changes which turn weak classes into dmg dealers

I really hope you are being sarcastic here, because otherwise I have a hard time believing that you are an actual breathing human being.

Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:50 AM by inoeth

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:42 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:11 AM
these are all no major changes which turn weak classes into dmg dealers

I really hope you are being sarcastic here, because otherwise I have a hard time believing that you are an actual breathing human being.

100% sarcastic because in fact i know we are all getting PA dmg based anytimers ofc!

dude really? why do some ppl always believe armageddon is coming even though there are no facts about the change out yet?

Thu 30 Apr 2020 7:08 AM by Sepplord

Maybe because the last change that was a quite simple thing (compared to such a huge task as a complete style overhaul) was turned from "no change in average dmg" into a huge nerf?

I love the server, and overall the staff is doing a great job. I am glad they have opened up the possibility to donate and i hope many people took the chance to support their work.
It is completely normal that people are afraid that such a HUGE change could go wrong. Especially since the games balance of classes relies on much more than "same damage". Especially since so many things were announced to be changed at the same time (within the style change, not talking about the other topic that were announced at the same time).

It seems they are taking their time with the style changes, and i still have hope that it will work out well...but being surprised that people voice their fears NOW. Waiting until the "facts" are out, will not work, unless you know you can be online on patchday and pester the staff over discord immediatly

Thu 30 Apr 2020 7:57 AM by Cadebrennus

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:42 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:11 AM
these are all no major changes which turn weak classes into dmg dealers

I really hope you are being sarcastic here, because otherwise I have a hard time believing that you are an actual breathing human being.

Join the crowd. Many of us on this forum feel the same way about him lol

Thu 30 Apr 2020 8:09 AM by Patron

Im curious and chilled about the styleoverhaul.
I guess it is a chance to try something new. And who know, maybe it will get a blast! Would not the first time we get surprised by the staff in a good way.
When the styleoverhaul should be silly, we still can cry and write posts...

Oh and ofc i support this project and every player should doing this imo!
Beside: How about a nice title iG for donors? Would love this

Thu 30 Apr 2020 8:11 AM by inoeth

Patron wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 8:09 AM
Im curious and chilled about the styleoverhaul.
I guess it is a chance to try something new. And who know, maybe it will get a blast! Would not the first time we get surprised by the staff in a good way.
When the styleoverhaul should be silly, we still can cry and write posts...

Oh and ofc i support this project and every player should doing this imo!
Beside: How about a nice title iG for donors? Would love this

this 100%
ppl need to chill alot more about these things

Thu 30 Apr 2020 8:13 AM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 7:57 AM
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:42 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:11 AM
these are all no major changes which turn weak classes into dmg dealers

I really hope you are being sarcastic here, because otherwise I have a hard time believing that you are an actual breathing human being.

Join the crowd. Many of us on this forum feel the same way about him lol

your multiple personalities do not count as "crowd"

Thu 30 Apr 2020 8:20 AM by SlowMo

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:50 AM
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:42 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:11 AM
these are all no major changes which turn weak classes into dmg dealers

I really hope you are being sarcastic here, because otherwise I have a hard time believing that you are an actual breathing human being.

100% sarcastic because in fact i know we are all getting PA dmg based anytimers ofc!

dude really? why do some ppl always believe armageddon is coming even though there are no facts about the change out yet?

Believing style changes (armageddon-like or not) won´t have a major influence to every direct and indirect aspect of the game is just childish silly.

The crit change disaster just perfectly showed that it´s not possible to forsee all consequences of changes. So yes, I´m having a hard time believing this will result in a positive outcome.

Thu 30 Apr 2020 8:24 AM by inoeth

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 8:20 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:50 AM
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:42 AM
I really hope you are being sarcastic here, because otherwise I have a hard time believing that you are an actual breathing human being.

100% sarcastic because in fact i know we are all getting PA dmg based anytimers ofc!

dude really? why do some ppl always believe armageddon is coming even though there are no facts about the change out yet?

Believing style changes (armageddon-like or not) won´t have a major influence to every direct and indirect aspect of the game is just childish silly.

The crit change disaster just perfectly showed that it´s not possible to forsee all consequences of changes. So yes, I´m having a hard time believing this will result in a positive outcome.

why was that a desaster? anyone got absurdly op? i think no... tbh i like the change everybody is doing less dmg now
and why is that childish? do you know whats childish? to think that ppl who spend their time hosting a server, destroy it by doing absurd changes. dont you think these guys have a brain? if i was a gm i would feel offended by you now tbh

Thu 30 Apr 2020 8:52 AM by Patron

Its human nature every change is perceived critically.
It was so at Task-change, NF-change... people need time to acclimate with this changes.
And this psychological effect not get take in view from most freeshardstaffs.
If they change too much in short time, they can make players upset, even the changes was needed and are result in a better gaming experience.

Thu 30 Apr 2020 9:20 AM by Cadebrennus

SlowMo wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 8:20 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:50 AM
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:42 AM
I really hope you are being sarcastic here, because otherwise I have a hard time believing that you are an actual breathing human being.

100% sarcastic because in fact i know we are all getting PA dmg based anytimers ofc!

dude really? why do some ppl always believe armageddon is coming even though there are no facts about the change out yet?

Believing style changes (armageddon-like or not) won´t have a major influence to every direct and indirect aspect of the game is just childish silly.

The crit change disaster just perfectly showed that it´s not possible to forsee all consequences of changes. So yes, I´m having a hard time believing this will result in a positive outcome.

.
.

Thu 30 Apr 2020 9:36 AM by Patron

The crit change disaster just perfectly showed that it´s not possible to forsee all consequences of changes. So yes, I´m having a hard time believing this will result in a positive outcome.

There are 2 messages in this quote right?

Yeah, ofc it is not possible to forsee all consequenes of a change. No matter which area of life, in employmentprogress, in private relationships and even in games ofc.
It is not possible.
But the staff want a healthy attractive server, i just assume that.
So even there are points which need to get redirected, i am curious on the changes, because we can test some things and go on hunt on bugs staff not considered.
I love this and who knows, maybe my class will get the new meta for some time?

Im strongly believe, maybe after some time, this will come to a positive outcome.
And in the badest way, staff demolish everything, it is not bad, because staff still can go back to the current stylesystem.
Everythings gona be allright

Thu 30 Apr 2020 2:49 PM by Ele

I attempt a little summary of what seems to be some kind of consensus regarding the style changes to me, in hoping to push the discussion back to the center of the topic.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Style Chains:
Style chains will be reduced to a max length of 2, that means there will only be styles with direct follow ups, never follow ups with further follow ups. This is primarily due to our streak avoidance making larger chains even harder than they would be anyways.
The "left over" styles will either become their own chain or be added onto other styles as a follow up.
Iconic attributes of chains will remain, for example the valewalker side stun will have the ae dd style as a follow up.

As long as the "Iconic attributes of chains" remain, a change to chains due to mathematical reasons seems reasonable to many players.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Style Damage Scaling
There are many nonsensical inconsistencies between the different styles in terms of damage. This will be fixed resulting in a hopefully intuitive damage scale:
reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer
That means that reactive follow ups do more damage than side follow ups which do more damage than reactive opener which do more than back follow ups etc.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Some "Fairness" Changes
Still actively discussed on the exact extend of this change, general gist is that there are mirror spec lines in the different realms with differences for the sake of having some difference. Part of it will be that SBs will receive some form of reactive stun that is not a follow up.
This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.

I put this two changes together, as they combine what seems to be concerning a lot of players: mirroring of styles/classes. The "flavour" of realms/classes should be kept. The proposed "intuitive damage scale" could e.g. possibly force every melee to use side chains for dps, if it is taken literally. Right now, Hero, Champ and Arms e.g. deal most dmg when at the back of a target. A change in this behaviour does not sound reasonable at all, although it is not completely clear if this scale is really a target of changes, or just the observation that many lines already scale their dmg that way and thus is used for removing a few inconsitencies.
Slight changes, like adding snares/stuns etc. to some lines sound ok, as long as the core of the lines stays untouched.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Bleeds
This part is still being discussed and it's likely that there could be a couple tests to see how it plays out. Bleeds are utterly pointless in the current game, in the original game their only justification was against epic bosses when doing them in small groups (melee hits hitting for 1 damage and bleed doing 25), however even this niche use case doesn't apply anymore.
Feedback here is welcome, so far a likely test candidate would be this: Bleed value is increased and bleeds will stack.

A change to bleeds is appreciated by many players, yet it is uncertain what change might be reasonable. The proposed impact on endurance regen got a mixed feedback on discord. An often heard suggestion is to remove the cc-break from bleeds and leave it at that.

In general, the concern for mirroring lines like the infamous style patch in live is a dominant factor in the discussion. I, personally, don't think that this is what we have to expect, but, ideally, a dev-side statement, maybe with some more input on what to expect, might help calming those fears.
Edit: typos...

Fri 1 May 2020 6:36 AM by Failwalker

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.78

Valewalker

The Conflagration Scythe Style has been changed to chain off of Arboreal Shield. The style itself has the following attribute adjustments: Medium Attack bonus, Medium Defensive Penalty, High Fatigue, High Damage.

old logs of some conflag 2chain-action 10years ago

Damage was alright...

Sat 2 May 2020 10:57 AM by Centenario

What about almost useless styles, for example:

21 DW style Penumbra: Follow-up of Back Style (Shadow Edge) w/ 0.93 growth, 10 endo cost, 15 hit bonus
Is to be used instead of:
12 DW style Eclipse: Follow-up of Back Style (Shadow Edge) w/ 0.92 growth, 10 endo cost, 10 hit bonus, 18% haste debuff for 20s

You get 0.01 increased growth and 5 hit bonus, and you lose the 18% haste debuff, you also have to put another skill on your bars...
Either it was supposed to be a third-style chain or it's missing some kinda proc.
Overall that style @21DW is so bad, it doesn't feel like an upgrade.

If I compare with Celtic Dual Back 3-style chain:
8CD
10CD
15CD at least this is a third-style chain, and it gives a bonus to defense.

It would be great to change Penumbra @21DW, but if you want to get rid of 3-style chains...
In Left-Axe they got a 3-style chain:
29LA: 0.95 growth, 10 hit bonus, (which should be at 0.69 growth if you compare to shadow's edge)
44LA: 1.10 growth, 15 hit bonus, bleeding
50LA: 1.25, 15 hit bonus, 5 endo, 95 cold DD

What I would have done is to put the 50DW style Dual Shadow at lvl 21 and create a new style at 50DW similar to the 50LA one, as a third-style chain to Shadow-Edge + Eclipse + New Style.

Tue 5 May 2020 12:40 PM by Pao

Dont change the game too much....

Tue 5 May 2020 5:03 PM by Cadebrennus

Pao wrote: ↑
Tue 5 May 2020 12:40 PM
Dont change the game too much....

Too late

Fri 8 May 2020 8:30 AM by samuele2723

I think this is a great change to plan @staff.

Definitely current daoc styles have some non-logical and useless styles due to years of patch and patch.

To me, is so nice when i am forced to think if go 39 or 44 because i get or i will not get an important style or chain.

Should be always that feeling, the higher you skill a weapon the better styles you have access too.

In addition, this could balance some unwanted styles (crush alb, axe mid, friar staff missing stun on second chain, etc)
Please keep going with this, very curious into changes.

Fri 8 May 2020 10:26 AM by thirian24

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 5 May 2020 5:03 PM
Pao wrote: ↑
Tue 5 May 2020 12:40 PM
Dont change the game too much....

Too late

rofl

Fri 8 May 2020 11:02 AM by Patron

Staff, be couraged and open to try some new, as the bigger part of the community. Ofc you can build sht, but we still can go back to the current stylesystem. We risk nothing but can win a much

Fri 8 May 2020 1:06 PM by imweasel

Any preview of the style changes you are planning?

Sun 10 May 2020 5:51 AM by Pao

Thats a change nobody needs. It just makes more balance needed and at the end we have a slow version of WOW.

Sun 10 May 2020 6:46 AM by kosen

When is this going live?

Sun 10 May 2020 6:30 PM by jwalker

I think what we see are

Left axt user that want a direct stun + easy snare style (so that berserker doesn't need to spec into hammer)-> while not realizing that a fairness change would need to heavily nerf the back combo and also slightly nerf doublefrost, draw out, provoke

Hand-to-Hand user that want a snare style-> while not realizing that a fairness change would carefully look into the insnare growth rates of h2h and would need to nerf it accordingly

Dual wield user that think they get a snare style -> while not realizing that a fairness change would need to heavily nerf anytimer from crush (6 second stun chain?) and slash (amnetist->diamond slash combo)

Alb two hand, polearm and friar staff user that doesn't realize that their styles are really good and would receive as much of a nerf as buffs

And then we have celtic dual users, that wonders why all the other realms get all their utility now-> while IF this is a real fairness chance they would receive a much better anytimer, and ranger/ns would get higher GR on the side and back combo.

But I have the feeling that for some reason we won't see a fairness change that gives NS a comparable back combo to SB or a comparable anytimer to alb slash. In the end they hand in the utility styles buffing certain classes while others will not get anything which will cause new imbalances and also make a lot of spec lines feel less unique.

Sun 10 May 2020 6:42 PM by thirian24

jwalker wrote: ↑
Sun 10 May 2020 6:30 PM
I think what we see are

Left axt user that want a direct stun + easy snare style (so that berserker doesn't need to spec into hammer)
-> while not realizing that a fairness change would need to heavily nerf the back combo and also slightly nerf doublefrost, draw out, provoke

Hand-to-Hand user that want a snare style
-> while not realizing that a fairness change would carefully look into the insnare growth rates of h2h and would need to nerf it accordingly

Dual wield user that think they get a snare style
-> while not realizing that a fairness change would need to heavily nerf anytimer from crush (6 second stun chain?) and slash (amnetist->diamond slash combo)

Alb two hand, polearm and friar staff user that doesn't realize that their styles are really good and would receive as much of a nerf as buffs

And then we have celtic dual users, that wonders why all the other realms get all their utility now
-> while IF this is a real fairness chance they would receive a much better anytimer, and ranger/ns would get higher GR on the side and back combo.

But I have the feeling that for some reason we won't see a fairness change that gives NS a comparable back combo to SB or a comparable anytimer to alb slash. In the end they hand in the utility styles buffing certain classes while others will not get anything which will cause new imbalances and also make a lot of spec lines feel less unique.

Amen.

Very well said. None of these changes are needed. I wish they'd leave style changes alone.

Sun 10 May 2020 6:54 PM by EscapeArtist

I think better not change too much.

And you can not only set the damage scaling only by the style type (backstyle,reactive). Theres a difference if it is a lvl 12 backstyle or a lvl 50 backstyle.

Sun 10 May 2020 11:57 PM by imweasel

I was hoping the only changes that are going to be made would simply to make each weapon spec line viable in each realm.

Give a reason for a melee in hib to spec blunt. Give a reason for a melee in mid to not choose hammer.

That's all that should come out of this style review.

Mon 11 May 2020 5:11 PM by darkstar00

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 4:20 AM
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 2:57 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 10:32 AM
in like 20 min you are lvl6 and can get the taunt...
At 2-5 the style just consumes your endurance for no reason
Anyone speccing other lines 6-9 get the taunt style a bit later
I rarely even train until I’m at least level 5
I just auto attack
If I do train it’s not for the styles or it’s a line with buffs

Lol I do the same as well for melee chars... i train but just hit attack no styles. Your first few styles are all low damage anyways.

Mon 11 May 2020 6:58 PM by inoeth

darkstar00 wrote: ↑
Mon 11 May 2020 5:11 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 4:20 AM
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 2:57 AM
At 2-5 the style just consumes your endurance for no reason
Anyone speccing other lines 6-9 get the taunt style a bit later
I rarely even train until I’m at least level 5
I just auto attack
If I do train it’s not for the styles or it’s a line with buffs

Lol I do the same as well for melee chars... i train but just hit attack no styles. Your first few styles are all low damage anyways.

i hit like a truck greens are usually one or two hit

Thu 14 May 2020 3:32 PM by Ardri

Is this still happening?

Fri 15 May 2020 6:56 AM by imamo

this is really a bad idea.

Sun 17 May 2020 10:28 AM by Tritri

Ardri wrote: ↑
Thu 14 May 2020 3:32 PM
Is this still happening?

I would really like to know aswell, currently scared of playing my BM

Fri 29 May 2020 11:51 PM by gotwqqd

Well?

Sat 30 May 2020 12:07 AM by Hodge

Would we get a free respec if char already played 1 day?

Sat 30 May 2020 2:24 PM by imweasel

Hodge wrote: ↑
Sat 30 May 2020 12:07 AM
Would we get a free respec if char already played 1 day?

I would imagine all toons that can spec a weapon will get a free skill respec credit, just like the free realm respec toons got if you had spec'ed in mastery of pain when they changed it...

Tue 2 Jun 2020 9:57 AM by Centenario

I was leveling an assassin class recently, and while looking at the CS line, I found a perfect prototype for change: the 4-style chain after-evade.

Level: 12 / 29 / 44 / 50
Effect: Bleed / Bleed / Snare / Bleed
Effect (Plus) : (5dmg,4s,30s) / (7dmg,4s,40s) / 27s / (11dmg,4s,40s)
Growth: 1.13/1.33/1.32/1.40
Off Bonus: 10/15/15/15
Def Bonus: 10/5/0/5
endo: 5/10/5/5

In my opinion to land this 4-style chain should come with the reward of stacking 3 different bleeds on the target, it should be used to fight against tanks.
In total that would be: 37.5+70+110 damage or 217.5 damage over 40seconds.
If we compare this to the lifebane dot (64dmg/4s/20s) or 320 damage over 20seconds or 640damage over 40seconds.
If the bleeds would stack that would still be 3 times less damage than a lifebane dot.
For the diffculty of landing a 4-style chain, and because you need to be attacked to use this chain, it feels like the damage is very undertuned.

However, to increase damage or make it stacking, it would improve the dps of assassins overall.
If we were to increase the damage of bleeds and or make it stackable, then we would need to remove something else (most likely growth rate).

In my opinion, the bleeds/poisons should be favored over weapon damage when fighting tanks, because they are not affected by absorb % of the armor.
So this 4-style chain should have its growth rate reviewed (lowered) and the bleeds should become stackable, and the damage should be improved. I propose:
(10dmg,4s,20s) / (20dmg,4s,20s) / (30dmg,4s,20s)
That would be 300 dmg over 20s or about the equivalent of a lifebane dot.
In exchange the growth rate should be lowered to the similar growth rate of basic lines around 0.9.
I would also reduce this 4-style chain to 3-style and remove the third one with the snare, leave that to garrote.

This would also mean that the CS line doesnt have high growth rate anymore, just high bleed or high stealth attack.
Although the high damage of stealth attack disappeared, and it should come back if this were to happen.

Thu 4 Jun 2020 6:58 PM by inoeth

ETA?

Fri 5 Jun 2020 3:38 AM by

gruenesschaf

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Jun 2020 6:58 PM
ETA?

Q2 2020

Fri 5 Jun 2020 6:01 AM by inoeth

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Jun 2020 3:38 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Jun 2020 6:58 PM
ETA?

Q2 2020

so this month, nice thx

Mon 8 Jun 2020 8:37 AM by Centenario

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:20 PM
If you want to standardize growth rate just do: [DISCLAIMER: just a prototype system, not contractual]
0.45 for anytimer
0.55 for back
0.65 for anytimer follow-up
0.75 for side
0.85 for back follow-up
0.95 for reactive
1.05 for side follow-up
1.15 for reactive follow-up
These are for +0 hit, +0def, no effects, 10 endo cost, basic lines.
For each +10 hit bonus, decrease the growth by 0.10
For each 5 endo cost increase/decrease, increase/decrease the growth by 0.05
For each snare effect, decrease the growth by 0.01 per 1 seconds (max -0.2)
For each 5 def increase or decrease, increase/decrease the growth by 0.025
For spec lines give a bonus growth of 0.1

If we then take the merc 2-style chain:
29dw should have growth of:
0.75-0.12-0.05+0.1=0.68
39dw should have growth of:
1.05-0.1-0.025+0.1=0.1025

and for the BM:
8cw should have growth of:
0.55-0.1-0.12+0.1=0.43
15cw should have growth of:
0.85-0.1-0.075-0.05+0.1=0.725

With such a system we can keep the differences between realms, and the flavor of the classes, but at least balance the growth rates. Frankly I don't have enough RvR experience to know exactly what weight to give to each differences, maybe endo cost has been designed without endo pots in mind. Maybe a 4sec stun is not good, or a bleed is also not good for CC so it increases the growth rate (to balance it).
This system needs a little tweaking, but I believe is how it should be done, just to remove some outliers.

There also needs to be a bonus growth the furthest the style is (50 spec style will have a larger growth than 12 spec style).

Mon 15 Jun 2020 3:07 PM by Blitze

Be careful what you wish for.

Savages massive growth rates would need to take a serious nerf to allow for utility or solo-ability(+to hit on anytime) to be granted...

...And by doing this you’ve gone a step towards homogenisation [make savages play like any other melee].

Mon 15 Jun 2020 3:19 PM by Ele

andreynk257 wrote: 1) Rear Positional Fix:

As in stands the rear positional follow up Clan's Might is pretty useless in group RVR because 1) it has no hit bonus and 2) it breaks CC with the multi enemy hit ability. I would at the very least like to see a medium hit bonus on it to make it viable and the multi-hit function removed or replaced with something useful.

The back follow up is not as useless as you think. Savages can use it vs. theurg pets, useful for stoping ice pets from casting if you couldn't control the theurg. For the cc part: don't get into tunnel vision, and you can use the style. Just don't use it while close (250?range) to a cc'd target.

andreynk257 wrote: 2) Positional Snare Addition:

Currently the 3 light tanks all have a positional snare which the Savage lacks without having to spec into the Hammer line to significantly lower main dps spec.

Going 15 into hammer for getting a side snare isn't too bad. In addition, I remember our peeler bitching about savages (who knew what they are doing) wo peeled them with their after evade snare. In addition, its counterparts (Reaver and VW) don't have peels either, and they perform just fine - as do savages, in fact.

andreynk257 wrote: 3) Weak Anytime Style:

Wild-call (anytime) puts the already weak solo Savage class at an even greater disadvantage because it has no to hit bonus and procs a significant defensive penalty making it easier for the opponent to break through defenses.

Agreed, but svg is already one of the strongest/the strongest melee in this ruleset. Giving him a decent anytimer feels odd. And again, his counterparts have shitty anytimers either, although their reactionaries are way better.

Edit: typo...

Mon 15 Jun 2020 3:44 PM by andreynk257

andreynk257 wrote: 3) Weak Anytime Style:

Wild-call (anytime) puts the already weak solo Savage class at an even greater disadvantage because it has no to hit bonus and procs a significant defensive penalty making it easier for the opponent to break through defenses.

Agreed, but svg is already one of the strongest/the strongest melee in this ruleset. Giving him a decent anytimer feels odd. And again, his counterparts have shitty anytimers either, although their reactionaries are way better.

Edit: typo...
[/quote]

Savage is very weak as a solo 1 vs 1 due to constantly loosing health from buffs and low weapon skill. Fighting against stealthers is almost always a guaranteed loss.

Wed 17 Jun 2020 4:49 AM by jhaerik

Long story short this scale means melee damage against casters would go even further down.... and stealthers become even harder to 1v1?
Lovely...

So live?

Wed 17 Jun 2020 12:07 PM by andreynk257

Blitze wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jun 2020 3:07 PM
Be careful what you wish for.

Savages massive growth rates would need to take a serious nerf to allow for utility or solo-ability(+to hit on anytime) to be granted...

...And by doing this you’ve gone a step towards homogenisation [make savages play like any other melee].

H2H massive growth rates = normal damage in practice due to savage's being on a lower weapon skill/damage table than Berserkers for example. As it stands Savages at the moment are a terrible 1 vs 1 solo class against other melees, they loose at lot of health and don't do enough damage to offset that because of their inherent low weapon skill and H2H having no defense penetration bonuses (like LA) it gets evaded/blocked/parried a lot so the damage savages actually put out does not really offset their rate of health loss. Triples/quads only happen about 15% of the time combined and 50% of the time they do single hits which is terrible dmg and a double hit is 30% of the time which only puts them roughly on par with a Berserker without the higher defense penetration mechanics. So essentially 50% of the time Savages are doing less dps than a Berserker on top of being block/parried/evaded more and while loosing a ton of health in the process.

Bottom line all other melee classes do much better in solo 1 vs 1 and are just as useful in group rvr, so why is the Savage being overlooked? Warrior, Thane, and Berserker all have much better chances of beating stealth class than a Savage. The Savage is only useful for chancing support and that's such a limited play style.

Thu 18 Jun 2020 7:49 AM by HibRanger

Seems like Tolerance got to phoenix. Make all equal for sake of fairness! This game diversity was the most nice thing on live. They gone to equality and look at this mess now. The actual stance of a game is just ok, why change at all.

Next step make only arena fights 1vs1, 2vs2 etc etc. becoiuse it is unfair to farm solos duos etc with 4+man. Ban them adders. Ffs stop it.

Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:45 AM by Noashakra

Yeah savages are the worst melee in solo, so what? It's one of the top melee class in 8vs8 and te buffs costing life is part of the design of the class. Not all classes should be able to perform solo. Some classes are specialized. Should sins and archers start to ask for more tools to be able to group in GvG? Gtae classes are not part of the 8vs8 meta and it's fine too.

Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:22 AM by Cadebrennus

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:45 AM
Should sins and archers start to ask for more tools to be able to group in GvG? Gtae classes are not part of the 8vs8 meta and it's fine too.

I would be 100% for this if there were more restrictions on stealth, such as much much longer cool down to use stealth (but increase stealth walking speed), reduce Assassin 1v1 dominance, etc.

Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:17 PM by Centenario

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:22 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:45 AM
Should sins and archers start to ask for more tools to be able to group in GvG? Gtae classes are not part of the 8vs8 meta and it's fine too.

I would be 100% for this if there were more restrictions on stealth, such as much much longer cool down to use stealth (but increase stealth walking speed), reduce Assassin 1v1 dominance, etc.

People are running 12-16v8 now.

Thu 18 Jun 2020 6:30 PM by Cadebrennus

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jun 2020 1:17 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jun 2020 10:22 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jun 2020 9:45 AM
Should sins and archers start to ask for more tools to be able to group in GvG? Gtae classes are not part of the 8vs8 meta and it's fine too.

I would be 100% for this if there were more restrictions on stealth, such as much much longer cool down to use stealth (but increase stealth walking speed), reduce Assassin 1v1 dominance, etc.

People are running 12-16v8 now.

What do you mean? 4 or 8 stealth + 8 Visis vs 8 Visis?

Thu 18 Jun 2020 7:58 PM by Kaziera

my view as 8v8 nerd

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=99782

Style Chains:
Style chains will be reduced to a max length of 2, that means there will only be styles with direct follow ups, never follow ups with further follow ups. This is primarily due to our streak avoidance making larger chains even harder than they would be anyways.
The "left over" styles will either become their own chain or be added onto other styles as a follow up.
Iconic attributes of chains will remain, for example the valewalker side stun will have the ae dd style as a follow up.
We will see how this pans out. i am fairly optimistic

Style Damage Scaling
There are many nonsensical inconsistencies between the different styles in terms of damage. This will be fixed resulting in a hopefully intuitive damage scale:
reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer
That means that reactive follow ups do more damage than side follow ups which do more damage than reactive opener which do more than back follow ups etc.
looks ok, although there is almost zero oportunity in 8man combat to perfom reactives. so there will be lost potential damage

Bleeds
This part is still being discussed and it's likely that there could be a couple tests to see how it plays out. Bleeds are utterly pointless in the current game, in the original game their only justification was against epic bosses when doing them in small groups (melee hits hitting for 1 damage and bleed doing 25), however even this niche use case doesn't apply anymore.
Feedback here is welcome, so far a likely test candidate would be this: Bleed value is increased and bleeds will stack.
I think bleed stack is the way to go. then ppl have a incentive to decide between a dmg stack or CC potential. value increase is too easy.

Some "Fairness" Changes
Still actively discussed on the exact extend of this change, general gist is that there are mirror spec lines in the different realms with differences for the sake of having some difference. Part of it will be that SBs will receive some form of reactive stun that is not a follow up.
This could include going further and adding the CD side stun / back snare to DW / LA.
i think there should be fairness, but also variance. e.g. one realm asassin gets a sidestun, one a backstun, one a reactive stun

Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:11 PM by gotwqqd

Do they realize on any of the reactive or positional chains that have 2 or three bleeds in them will make it much more difficult to stack them all if they break chains up?

Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:11 PM by Cadebrennus

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:11 PM
Do they realize on any of the reactive or positional chains that have 2 or three bleeds in them will make it much more difficult to stack them all if they break chains up?

Hopefully this bleed change is their way of saying "we will leave the chains the f*** alone (for once)"

Fri 19 Jun 2020 6:55 PM by gotwqqd

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:11 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:11 PM
Do they realize on any of the reactive or positional chains that have 2 or three bleeds in them will make it much more difficult to stack them all if they break chains up?

Hopefully this bleed change is their way of saying "we will leave the chains the f*** alone (for once)"

They already said it’s coming in future patch

Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:18 PM by Cadebrennus

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 6:55 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 2:11 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:11 PM
Do they realize on any of the reactive or positional chains that have 2 or three bleeds in them will make it much more difficult to stack them all if they break chains up?

Hopefully this bleed change is their way of saying "we will leave the chains the f*** alone (for once)"
They already said it’s coming in future patch

I'm trying to be an optimist. If they go the Broadsword route and decide to mess around with the styles as they proposed, they will experience a mass exodus just like Broadsword did.

Wed 24 Jun 2020 9:18 PM by jhaerik

imweasel wrote: ↑
Fri 8 May 2020 1:06 PM
Any preview of the style changes you are planning?

They don't seem to release any info ahead of time anymore... nor do they really do community votes anymore. They just sort of say "we are doing this" it turns out terrible and within an hour to a day they end up reverting most of it back.

<cough cough> Like who seriously thought a bleed cap of 200 was a smart idea....

Mon 29 Jun 2020 8:29 AM by Sepplord

It makes it easier to implement huge buffs/nerfs without many people taking notice.

The Critchange happened in ways so that most people still don't know what actually happened and got changed in total. In the end it was a huge nerf, but if it had just been done like that immediatly, the community would have taken it very different, instead of having discussion going back and forth because 90% of the time is spent arguing and explaining what already was changed again.

Or how to announce a 50% CD-increase on BD lifetap...yet somehow it is at a 7-8second recast now while it should be 6second if everything went according to plan. No reactions on the reports of that though.

Wed 1 Jul 2020 8:40 AM by inoeth

its now Q3 and still no style change

Wed 1 Jul 2020 10:32 AM by labra

I believe Q stands for quadrimester

Wed 1 Jul 2020 12:29 PM by Razur Ur

i guess that was a april joke :-D

Wed 1 Jul 2020 2:05 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Jul 2020 8:40 AM
its now Q3 and still no style change

Thank goodness for that.

Wed 1 Jul 2020 5:02 PM by gromet12

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Jul 2020 2:05 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Jul 2020 8:40 AM
its now Q3 and still no style change

Thank goodness for that.

If they did change them it would work out something like this:

all alb classes get anytime 25+ bleeds, the rest of the realms will have their already pitiful bleed dmg cut in half from 9 to 4.5. That one hib 25 bleed style was a mistake, we fixed that as well. Albs can now stack to 400 dmg while the rest are full of bleeds and cap @ 50.

GR on all alb styles increased by .5
Mids get Free 2hander, so goes down by .25
Hibs increased by .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

Hybrids all increased to Dmg table 25 (new for them), given stoicism, and increased all insta DD's dmg by double
Reduced casting speed of all spells (namely DD's) for cloth casters
Albs lack in disease, so Friar/Reaver/Paladin now have disease proc buff that stacks, procs affect the entire group if the character is grouped
To help Reavers, DD dmg of Levithan upped to 500 (they don't get groups), and given self haste of 40% for 10secs useable every 45secs
Friar given magic ABS group buff (they don't get groups and still need further buffing)
Paladins can run every song at once now, no need to macro or twist (they dont get groups)
**Added blocking to 2hander (its hard they have to spec for 2hand), and celerity
Necro's now have free MOM 9 (they go down too fast against magic dmg and not intent)

Alb shield classes now get the anytime root for all classes
Mid shield classes slam goes to 5secs
Hib shield classes loose slam (you guys still run shield users anymore, your casters and LW has rear stun)

Casters can now insta summon heavy tank classes to fill rams for easier rp farming for them, heavy tanks are stuck standing in the relic towns until needed for ram slots or to act as decoys when needed or pve farming.

**We will evaluate the Mid/Hib abilities, they may still be too powerful and need further adjusting based on alb feedback

Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:46 AM by inoeth

so many bullshit comments, anyone here for serious talk?

Thu 2 Jul 2020 8:27 AM by jhaerik

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:46 AM
so many bullshit comments, anyone here for serious talk?

Personally I just wish they'd do some damn news updates.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 9:24 AM by Centenario

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Style Chains:

Style Damage Scaling

Bleeds

Some "Fairness" Changes

This is from the post on page one by the GM.

They have done the bleed topic and are now working on the style chain topic.
The damage scalin and fairness changes might come a little with the style chains changes.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:42 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:46 AM
so many bullshit comments, anyone here for serious talk?

This is pure comedy gold

Thu 2 Jul 2020 5:13 PM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:42 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:46 AM
so many bullshit comments, anyone here for serious talk?

This is pure comedy gold

good thing your merc alrdy got buffed, time to nerf others!

Thu 2 Jul 2020 8:47 PM by jhaerik

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 5:13 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:42 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 6:46 AM
so many bullshit comments, anyone here for serious talk?

This is pure comedy gold

good thing your merc alrdy got buffed, time to nerf others!

Honestly I only see the style changes buffing VW's and Reavers and no one else really giving a crap.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 10:41 PM by Cadebrennus

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 8:47 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 5:13 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:42 PM
This is pure comedy gold

good thing your merc alrdy got buffed, time to nerf others!

Honestly I only see the style changes buffing VW's and Reavers and no one else really giving a crap.

Weak players like Inoeth are absolutely foaming at the mouth for changes

Fri 3 Jul 2020 8:26 AM by inoeth

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 8:47 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 5:13 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:42 PM
This is pure comedy gold

good thing your merc alrdy got buffed, time to nerf others!

Honestly I only see the style changes buffing VW's and Reavers and no one else really giving a crap.

tbh no one actually knows much about what changes that will be and tbh my classes would benefit from what is already known.

@cade: you are pathetic, tell me the name of your merc and i will duell you... lets see who is bad. are you even playing here, or just shit posting in the forum?

Fri 3 Jul 2020 11:45 AM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 11:37 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 8:26 AM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 8:47 PM
Honestly I only see the style changes buffing VW's and Reavers and no one else really giving a crap.

tbh no one actually knows much about what changes that will be and tbh my classes would benefit from what is already known.

@cade: you are pathetic, tell me the name of your merc and i will duell you... lets see who is bad. are you even playing here, or just shit posting in the forum?

Duels are pathetic. I don't get to play often anymore, so when I do get to play I don't like to waste my time on trash like you.

so you dont play, contionously posting rumors/lies in the forum, insult peaple and refuse to show your massive skillz because you fucking know that you are lying.
you should really go back to the army and free your country from russia, but i bet you got thrown out there for a reason...

Fri 3 Jul 2020 1:19 PM by

Uthred

Please stop the insults. Stay on topic. Thank you.

Sun 5 Jul 2020 7:56 PM by labra

Any hint regarding style chains?
Are you looking at how live has changed styles or looking after your own revamp?

Thu 9 Jul 2020 3:10 PM by Centenario

A self-quote from earlier on this post.

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:20 PM
If you want to standardize growth rate just do: [DISCLAIMER: just a prototype system, not contractual]
0.45 for anytimer
0.55 for back
0.65 for anytimer follow-up
0.75 for side
0.85 for back follow-up
0.95 for reactive
1.05 for side follow-up
1.15 for reactive follow-up
1.25 for anytimer 3rd chain
1.35 for back 3rd chain
1.45 for side 3rd chain
1.55 for reactive 3rd chain
These are for +0 hit, +0def, no effects, 10 endo cost, basic lines.
For each +10 hit bonus, decrease the growth by 0.10
For each 5 endo cost increase/decrease, increase/decrease the growth by 0.05
For each snare effect, decrease the growth by 0.01 per 1 seconds (max -0.2)
For each 5 def increase or decrease, increase/decrease the growth by 0.025
For spec lines give a bonus growth of 0.1

If I use this system for the 3-style chain of BM:
Icestorm: 0.75-0.1=0.65 instead of 0.77
Tempest: 1.05-0.1 = 0.95 instead of 0.1
Supernova: 1.45-0.15-0.025=1.275 instead of 1.25

Would need to define for each special effect the resulting bonus/malus on growth rate, maybe add a bonus the further in the line the style is unlocked in, and also make some exception for some classes.
We can put some failsafes:
- Is this style the best filler?
- Does the class have an overwhelming style (reaver 50 flex)?
- Is this style stronger for one class in particular?
etc...

There was a post about taunt style recently (https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/14612-pve-change-taunt-styles-in-all-realms) and it sometimes feels like its hard to decide what takes priority over the other:
- Is growth rate for this style the priority? or is it the endo cost or the hit bonus or the defense bonus?
If we were to apply the system above for the H2H taunt style:
0.45+0.05 (from defense malus) + 0.1 from special line
So 0.6 instead of the actual 0.9.
But if the savages would argue that they want a +10 to hit bonus on their best filler like all other taunt style, then would the growth rate just go down to 0.5? The main flaw of the savage is that it has low chance to hit when face to face with an opponent with a shield. This sudden face to face filler boost of to-hit chance is worth a lot more to savages than just a 0.1 growth rate decrease.
Which is why each class should have a class-specific growth rate impact to increases/decreases to growth rate for each lever.

We know that mid classes have access to celerity and aoe stun/insta stun so all hit-bonus bonus should have a greater negative impact on growth rate.

We know that mid classes have access to 2-handed bonus on those basic lines, the endo cost decrease is very beneficial.

We know that hib classes have access to 2-hand great positional (stun/snare) so Large weapons will have overall lower anytime growth.

etc...

Fri 10 Jul 2020 5:52 AM by imweasel

So are the style changes going to be implemented?

I thought second quarter? What year though?

Tue 14 Jul 2020 10:26 AM by roope

Well, theyve already delivered most of the changes outlined in the 1st post.

The only problem is that none of those were actual problems. The real problem is that if you play a mid melee, you HAVE TO spec hammer, otherwise you seriously gimp yourself. That cant be right!
Give us the real option to spec Sword or Axe, without sacrificing good any timer, backsnare, parry stun..

Tue 14 Jul 2020 11:10 AM by Blitze

Agree,

Sword and axe need to be buffed in a diverse way to Hammer to give them some appeal and a theme. E.g. add more bleeds to Axe

Tue 14 Jul 2020 1:17 PM by DJ2000

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Style Chains:
Style chains will be reduced to a max length of 2.

This i consider as a must and will make room for some further changes.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Style Damage Scaling
reactive follow up > side follow up > reactive > back follow up > side > anytimer follow up > back > anytimer

Is this a global scale or just a scale for a single weapon line? If lvl 50 is an anytimer, would it be lower than lvl 10 side?
1h and 2h have usually different approaches to posi-styles and effects, not even consideringH2H,Flex,CS,DW etc...
The idea is fine, but i'm not sure if this can be introduced without revamping the current Lines too much, if there is this strict rule of superiority among the styles.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Bleeds

Already live, so i guess the current state is considered fine for RvR ?
Stacking/continuous Damage is rather a "no-go" with epic monsters for obv. Reasons.
Regular high lvl Monsters that u fight as Solo-Grp could be fine, unless u can "cheese" the encounter that way. (....unless that is supposed to happen)

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:56 PM
Some "Fairness" Changes

This is probably the biggest point of possible concerns.
There will be always players demanding/rejecting changes in the name of "fairness"/"balance"/"suppossed-to-be-like-this".

Wed 15 Jul 2020 1:12 PM by roope

Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Jul 2020 11:10 AM
Agree,

Sword and axe need to be buffed in a diverse way to Hammer to give them some appeal and a theme. E.g. add more bleeds to Axe

Exactly.

Axe could be the line with all sorts of bleed.

Sword could be the one with easy stuns, just an example like 5 sec stunner right away from parry opening. Or, alternatively, Sword could have the highest growth rate 'anytimer' style being a frontal required style (similar to armsman, which had a frontal good damage style).

Hammer would still be viable with the backside snare, the longest duration stun, and the weaponskill bonus for thanes.

Wed 15 Jul 2020 7:54 PM by gromet12

roope wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Jul 2020 1:12 PM
Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Jul 2020 11:10 AM
Agree,

Sword and axe need to be buffed in a diverse way to Hammer to give them some appeal and a theme. E.g. add more bleeds to Axe

Exactly.

Axe could be the line with all sorts of bleed.

Sword could be the one with easy stuns, just an example like 5 sec stunner right away from parry opening. Or, alternatively, Sword could have the highest growth rate 'anytimer' style being a frontal required style (similar to armsman, which had a frontal good damage style).

Hammer would still be viable with the backside snare, the longest duration stun, and the weaponskill bonus for thanes.

Why change from axe to sword for that? Axe already has a .75 frontal with a .90 followup

Mon 20 Jul 2020 4:21 PM by Centenario

I was told today by a ranger player that the blade line is too OP now that it has a after-evade reactionary stun style, its a custom change and is not classic-like.
21 in blades style 4sec stun.
You can then place a side snare when the player is stunned.
it's comparable to 25 pierce style and 15 thrust style beartooth (only for infi) or 50 thrust style dragonfang

Also on the mid side the axe line was changed so that valkyrie's shield is triggered off of an evade instead of a block.

This sets a precedent for style homogenization (even though it was changed from block/parry to evade for classes that don't have access to those abilities)

Dragonfang was also changed for armsman and paladin to trigger off of block instead of evade.

It was overall a nerf to infiltrator and scout to the profit of ranger/ns/sb/hunter

Mon 20 Jul 2020 7:44 PM by inoeth

Centenario wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 4:21 PM
I was told today by a ranger player that the blade line is too OP now that it has a after-evade reactionary stun style, its a custom change and is not classic-like.
21 in blades style 4sec stun.
You can then place a side snare when the player is stunned.
it's comparable to 25 pierce style and 15 thrust style beartooth (only for infi) or 50 thrust style dragonfang

Also on the mid side the axe line was changed so that valkyrie's shield is triggered off of an evade instead of a block.

This sets a precedent for style homogenization (even though it was changed from block/parry to evade for classes that don't have access to those abilities)

Dragonfang was also changed for armsman and paladin to trigger off of block instead of evade.

It was overall a nerf to infiltrator and scout to the profit of ranger/ns/sb/hunter

yes because 2/6/9s off evade and anytime stun is fucking OP

Mon 20 Jul 2020 8:26 PM by gotwqqd

Has(or is it planned) to correct the character planner to reflect these changes?

Mon 20 Jul 2020 8:27 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 7:44 PM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 4:21 PM
I was told today by a ranger player that the blade line is too OP now that it has a after-evade reactionary stun style, its a custom change and is not classic-like.
21 in blades style 4sec stun.
You can then place a side snare when the player is stunned.
it's comparable to 25 pierce style and 15 thrust style beartooth (only for infi) or 50 thrust style dragonfang

Also on the mid side the axe line was changed so that valkyrie's shield is triggered off of an evade instead of a block.

This sets a precedent for style homogenization (even though it was changed from block/parry to evade for classes that don't have access to those abilities)

Dragonfang was also changed for armsman and paladin to trigger off of block instead of evade.

It was overall a nerf to infiltrator and scout to the profit of ranger/ns/sb/hunter

yes because 2/6/9s off evade and anytime stun is fucking OP

Isn't it? You seem to be crying about Rangers being OP'ed all the time.

I was against the homogenisation immediately after launch and I'm still against it now. There is no equivalency between Pierce and Blades. If Pierce has the evade stun and Blades did not, then the two style lines would be balanced against each other and there wouldn't be so many whines from Mid, and in particular, Inoeth. The same can be said regarding the homogenisation of the style lines in Alb and Mid. Phoenix Devs should have never changed the reactionary style requirements to off evade. It just unbalanced things and I called it a long time ago, right around launch.

Mon 20 Jul 2020 8:33 PM by ExcretusMaximus

I'm starting to think these changes will never actually be made.

Tue 21 Jul 2020 12:06 PM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 8:27 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 7:44 PM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 4:21 PM
I was told today by a ranger player that the blade line is too OP now that it has a after-evade reactionary stun style, its a custom change and is not classic-like.
21 in blades style 4sec stun.
You can then place a side snare when the player is stunned.
it's comparable to 25 pierce style and 15 thrust style beartooth (only for infi) or 50 thrust style dragonfang

Also on the mid side the axe line was changed so that valkyrie's shield is triggered off of an evade instead of a block.

This sets a precedent for style homogenization (even though it was changed from block/parry to evade for classes that don't have access to those abilities)

Dragonfang was also changed for armsman and paladin to trigger off of block instead of evade.

It was overall a nerf to infiltrator and scout to the profit of ranger/ns/sb/hunter

yes because 2/6/9s off evade and anytime stun is fucking OP

Isn't it? You seem to be crying about Rangers being OP'ed all the time.

I was against the homogenisation immediately after launch and I'm still against it now. There is no equivalency between Pierce and Blades. If Pierce has the evade stun and Blades did not, then the two style lines would be balanced against each other and there wouldn't be so many whines from Mid, and in particular, Inoeth. The same can be said regarding the homogenisation of the style lines in Alb and Mid. Phoenix Devs should have never changed the reactionary style requirements to off evade. It just unbalanced things and I called it a long time ago, right around launch.

god you again. plz learn to read its not about rangers, its about all alb classes have several options to stun. a 4s stun can sometimes be critical but the point is albs can use a 2s stun to force purge and then be able to stun you for 9s.
this has nothing to do with hibernias blyat evade stun.

and plz start to play your ranger again, id love to chainfarm you

Tue 21 Jul 2020 12:47 PM by gotwqqd

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 12:06 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 8:27 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 7:44 PM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 4:21 PM
I was told today by a ranger player that the blade line is too OP now that it has a after-evade reactionary stun style, its a custom change and is not classic-like.
21 in blades style 4sec stun.
You can then place a side snare when the player is stunned.
it's comparable to 25 pierce style and 15 thrust style beartooth (only for infi) or 50 thrust style dragonfang

Also on the mid side the axe line was changed so that valkyrie's shield is triggered off of an evade instead of a block.

This sets a precedent for style homogenization (even though it was changed from block/parry to evade for classes that don't have access to those abilities)

Dragonfang was also changed for armsman and paladin to trigger off of block instead of evade.

It was overall a nerf to infiltrator and scout to the profit of ranger/ns/sb/hunter

yes because 2/6/9s off evade and anytime stun is fucking OP

Isn't it? You seem to be crying about Rangers being OP'ed all the time.

I was against the homogenisation immediately after launch and I'm still against it now. There is no equivalency between Pierce and Blades. If Pierce has the evade stun and Blades did not, then the two style lines would be balanced against each other and there wouldn't be so many whines from Mid, and in particular, Inoeth. The same can be said regarding the homogenisation of the style lines in Alb and Mid. Phoenix Devs should have never changed the reactionary style requirements to off evade. It just unbalanced things and I called it a long time ago, right around launch.

god you again. plz learn to read its not about rangers, its about all alb classes have several options to stun. a 4s stun can sometimes be critical but the point is albs can use a 2s stun to force purge and then be able to stun you for 9s.
this has nothing to do with hibernias blyat evade stun.

and plz start to play your ranger again, id love to chainfarm you

Ummm
Any shield spec class can do

Tue 21 Jul 2020 1:23 PM by inoeth

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 12:47 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 12:06 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 8:27 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 7:44 PM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 4:21 PM
I was told today by a ranger player that the blade line is too OP now that it has a after-evade reactionary stun style, its a custom change and is not classic-like.
21 in blades style 4sec stun.
You can then place a side snare when the player is stunned.
it's comparable to 25 pierce style and 15 thrust style beartooth (only for infi) or 50 thrust style dragonfang

Also on the mid side the axe line was changed so that valkyrie's shield is triggered off of an evade instead of a block.

This sets a precedent for style homogenization (even though it was changed from block/parry to evade for classes that don't have access to those abilities)

Dragonfang was also changed for armsman and paladin to trigger off of block instead of evade.

It was overall a nerf to infiltrator and scout to the profit of ranger/ns/sb/hunter

yes because 2/6/9s off evade and anytime stun is fucking OP

Isn't it? You seem to be crying about Rangers being OP'ed all the time.

I was against the homogenisation immediately after launch and I'm still against it now. There is no equivalency between Pierce and Blades. If Pierce has the evade stun and Blades did not, then the two style lines would be balanced against each other and there wouldn't be so many whines from Mid, and in particular, Inoeth. The same can be said regarding the homogenisation of the style lines in Alb and Mid. Phoenix Devs should have never changed the reactionary style requirements to off evade. It just unbalanced things and I called it a long time ago, right around launch.

god you again. plz learn to read its not about rangers, its about all alb classes have several options to stun. a 4s stun can sometimes be critical but the point is albs can use a 2s stun to force purge and then be able to stun you for 9s.
this has nothing to do with hibernias blyat evade stun.

and plz start to play your ranger again, id love to chainfarm you
Ummm
Any shield spec class can do

thats true but also every alb melee class that has no shield
in hib every melee can spec shield or those who cant have off evade stun, no chain
what does mid get? medium duration chains and only two classes that can spec shield

the point is both alb and hib are able to stun 2x in most fights where most midgard are happy to get off one stun in a fight which gets purged 99%

over all i think the changes to be live like and actually useable for the classes was a good thing though, just some classes fall a bit behind due to that which is not game breaking but there could be some adjustments like side stuns, shorter chains, reactionary stuns and more ASR styles for midgard.

Tue 21 Jul 2020 9:18 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 12:06 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 8:27 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 7:44 PM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Jul 2020 4:21 PM
I was told today by a ranger player that the blade line is too OP now that it has a after-evade reactionary stun style, its a custom change and is not classic-like.
21 in blades style 4sec stun.
You can then place a side snare when the player is stunned.
it's comparable to 25 pierce style and 15 thrust style beartooth (only for infi) or 50 thrust style dragonfang

Also on the mid side the axe line was changed so that valkyrie's shield is triggered off of an evade instead of a block.

This sets a precedent for style homogenization (even though it was changed from block/parry to evade for classes that don't have access to those abilities)

Dragonfang was also changed for armsman and paladin to trigger off of block instead of evade.

It was overall a nerf to infiltrator and scout to the profit of ranger/ns/sb/hunter

yes because 2/6/9s off evade and anytime stun is fucking OP

Isn't it? You seem to be crying about Rangers being OP'ed all the time.

I was against the homogenisation immediately after launch and I'm still against it now. There is no equivalency between Pierce and Blades. If Pierce has the evade stun and Blades did not, then the two style lines would be balanced against each other and there wouldn't be so many whines from Mid, and in particular, Inoeth. The same can be said regarding the homogenisation of the style lines in Alb and Mid. Phoenix Devs should have never changed the reactionary style requirements to off evade. It just unbalanced things and I called it a long time ago, right around launch.

god you again. plz learn to read its not about rangers, its about all alb classes have several options to stun. a 4s stun can sometimes be critical but the point is albs can use a 2s stun to force purge and then be able to stun you for 9s.
this has nothing to do with hibernias blyat evade stun.

and plz start to play your ranger again, id love to chainfarm you

Based on your need and championing to have the game changed so drastically that it would benefit only weaker players it's obvious that you can't even chainfarm a grey character at this point. Keep asking for changes though, it's entertaining to see what you require to become anything close to competitive.

Wed 22 Jul 2020 6:48 AM by labra

Style Chains:
I'm ok with this.
More chains, more choices, more playstyles.

Style Damage Scaling
What about front opener?

Bleeds
I'm for adding playstyles. Today it's mostly about snares or stuns. I understand how usefull it is but it's a bit boring. As I previously said, more playstyle is good.

Some "Fairness" Changes
I'm ok with the fairness idea. Beware not to create copy/paste classes and leave what made some classes unique, like LA for zerk

Thu 30 Jul 2020 9:48 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Are these changes ever going to happen?

Mon 3 Aug 2020 6:55 AM by imweasel

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Jul 2020 9:48 PM
Are these changes ever going to happen?

It's probably been delayed by the plague like everything else.

Some clue would be appreciated in any case...

Mon 3 Aug 2020 7:48 AM by roope

imweasel wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Aug 2020 6:55 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Jul 2020 9:48 PM
Are these changes ever going to happen?

It's probably been delayed by the plague like everything else.

Some clue would be appreciated in any case...

Apparently, the title selection webapp was a higher priority...

I hope they'll come back to this topic sooner or later tho. Its just probably hard, because making the same styles all realms/weapon lines would not be true to daoc, but on the other hand, some realms/weapon lines being clearly superior is also not fair. Some minor balancing is all thats needed. E. G. Buff the sword line of midgard a little bit, perhaps up the growth rate on axe back style and leave hammer as is.

Sun 9 Aug 2020 9:58 AM by inoeth

bump ETA?

Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:35 PM by Cadebrennus

Only weak and unskilled players are eagerly awaiting this change.

Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:39 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:35 PM
Only weak and unskilled players are eagerly awaiting this change.

Or maybe Mids who are tired of being forced into hammer, hammer, and nothing but hammer.

Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:40 PM by gotwqqd

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:39 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:35 PM
Only weak and unskilled players are eagerly awaiting this change.

Or maybe Mids who are tired of being forced into hammer, hammer, and nothing but hammer.

this

Mon 10 Aug 2020 7:13 AM by inoeth

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:40 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:39 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:35 PM
Only weak and unskilled players are eagerly awaiting this change.

Or maybe Mids who are tired of being forced into hammer, hammer, and nothing but hammer.
this

cade just tries to hurt me here, dont bother with him.. he does not play here anyway, just trolling the forums

ot: i recently logged in on live servers and checkt the styles of my characters there.... its so much more usefull and balanced. everyone has a good anytimer, a back snare, a reactionary stun chain, ASR style where you dont have to strafe or hidden in a 3 part chain which you nearly never get off while your opponent has an anytimer..

i really dont see any reason not to have this here, maybe only out of nostalgia reasons which is meh anyway

Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:22 PM by Siouxsie

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:35 PM
Only weak and unskilled players are eagerly awaiting this change.

When Cadebrennus says "weak and unskilled players" he means "Midgard players" because he's clearly never played a Mid on Phoenix.

Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:51 PM by Cadebrennus

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:22 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:35 PM
Only weak and unskilled players are eagerly awaiting this change.

When Cadebrennus says "weak and unskilled players" he means "Midgard players" because he's clearly never played a Mid on Phoenix.

I absolutely loved playing my 50 Sword Hunter during beta. I didn't continue on Mid though because Mid was insanely overpopulated.

I'm currently trying to decide between leveling a Thane or a Hunter now. Honest question, which do you recommend? And no, I won't spec Hammer.

Mon 10 Aug 2020 1:16 PM by gotwqqd

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:51 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:22 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:35 PM
Only weak and unskilled players are eagerly awaiting this change.

When Cadebrennus says "weak and unskilled players" he means "Midgard players" because he's clearly never played a Mid on Phoenix.

I absolutely loved playing my 50 Sword Hunter during beta. I didn't continue on Mid though because Mid was insanely overpopulated.

I'm currently trying to decide between leveling a Thane or a Hunter now. Honest question, which do you recommend? And no, I won't spec Hammer.

Axe rhane

Mon 10 Aug 2020 1:38 PM by Cadebrennus

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 1:16 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:51 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:22 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:35 PM
Only weak and unskilled players are eagerly awaiting this change.

When Cadebrennus says "weak and unskilled players" he means "Midgard players" because he's clearly never played a Mid on Phoenix.

I absolutely loved playing my 50 Sword Hunter during beta. I didn't continue on Mid though because Mid was insanely overpopulated.

I'm currently trying to decide between leveling a Thane or a Hunter now. Honest question, which do you recommend? And no, I won't spec Hammer.
Axe rhane

If I go Thane that's exactly what I would spec

Tue 11 Aug 2020 1:44 AM by Forlornhope

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 1:38 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 1:16 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:51 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:22 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:35 PM
Only weak and unskilled players are eagerly awaiting this change.

When Cadebrennus says "weak and unskilled players" he means "Midgard players" because he's clearly never played a Mid on Phoenix.

I absolutely loved playing my 50 Sword Hunter during beta. I didn't continue on Mid though because Mid was insanely overpopulated.

I'm currently trying to decide between leveling a Thane or a Hunter now. Honest question, which do you recommend? And no, I won't spec Hammer.
Axe rhane

If I go Thane that's exactly what I would spec

It's really a matter of what you want to do, I am enjoying my 44 spear hunter at the moment. You'll have a hard time soloing on a thane regardless of spec though so I wouldn't suggest it if that's what you want to do. Thane's are awesome in small mans though and even in 8mans or zerg situations.

Tue 11 Aug 2020 8:24 AM by Cadebrennus

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 1:44 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 1:38 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 1:16 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:51 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:22 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:35 PM
Only weak and unskilled players are eagerly awaiting this change.

When Cadebrennus says "weak and unskilled players" he means "Midgard players" because he's clearly never played a Mid on Phoenix.

I absolutely loved playing my 50 Sword Hunter during beta. I didn't continue on Mid though because Mid was insanely overpopulated.

I'm currently trying to decide between leveling a Thane or a Hunter now. Honest question, which do you recommend? And no, I won't spec Hammer.
Axe rhane

If I go Thane that's exactly what I would spec

It's really a matter of what you want to do, I am enjoying my 44 spear hunter at the moment. You'll have a hard time soloing on a thane regardless of spec though so I wouldn't suggest it if that's what you want to do. Thane's are awesome in small mans though and even in 8mans or zerg situations.

Thanks for the input. Smallman is my favourite playstyle. I'll have to fix my technical issues first though. I tried RvR'ing last night and it was a total slide show

Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:55 AM by Hodge

I believe thanes are the only class where they are on a higher damage table for one weapon (hammer).

Sat 22 Aug 2020 2:03 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Hodge wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 1:55 AM
I believe thanes are the only class where they are on a higher damage table for one weapon (hammer).

Pretty sure that's not a thing here.

Mon 24 Aug 2020 9:30 AM by Astaa

So is the threat of dumbing down melee classes still a thing or has it been abandoned?

Mon 24 Aug 2020 4:21 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 7:13 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:40 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:39 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Aug 2020 8:35 PM
Only weak and unskilled players are eagerly awaiting this change.

Or maybe Mids who are tired of being forced into hammer, hammer, and nothing but hammer.
this

cade just tries to hurt me here, dont bother with him.. he does not play here anyway, just trolling the forums

ot: i recently logged in on live servers and checkt the styles of my characters there.... its so much more usefull and balanced. everyone has a good anytimer, a back snare, a reactionary stun chain, ASR style where you dont have to strafe or hidden in a 3 part chain which you nearly never get off while your opponent has an anytimer..

i really dont see any reason not to have this here, maybe only out of nostalgia reasons which is meh anyway

It's hilarious that when I talk about "weak and unskilled players" it immediately catches your attention and you assume that I'm talking about you.

Excellent job on calling yourself out.

Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:29 AM by Acu

Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 9:30 AM
So is the threat of dumbing down melee classes still a thing or has it been abandoned?

Is this stopping with the bleeds or more to come?

Tue 8 Sep 2020 1:38 PM by gotwqqd

Acu wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:29 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Aug 2020 9:30 AM
So is the threat of dumbing down melee classes still a thing or has it been abandoned?

Is this stopping with the bleeds or more to come?

If they didn’t put in their custom rng smoother, things may not need to be tweaked

Tue 8 Sep 2020 1:48 PM by necrolove1

One of the things I was looking forward to the most was the reduction of three chain styles. I still think this can be worked in quite well. Hopefully, there is still something in the works.

Tue 8 Sep 2020 2:01 PM by ExcretusMaximus

I understand that the devs are busy with other changes, but if they weren't going to focus on this I wish they had never announced it.

Tue 8 Sep 2020 2:09 PM by imweasel

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Sep 2020 2:01 PM
I understand that the devs are busy with other changes, but if they weren't going to focus on this I wish they had never announced it.

At this point, I would consider this vaporware...

Thu 10 Sep 2020 5:37 PM by DinoTriz

I would love an update on this from a Dev, if possible. I'm looking forward to this one.

Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:45 PM by inoeth

bump!

Thu 24 Sep 2020 1:42 PM by ExcretusMaximus

It's been six months, is there a progress update available?

Fri 25 Sep 2020 12:03 AM by gotwqqd

Yes

When?

Sun 27 Sep 2020 1:38 PM by ExcretusMaximus

UPDATE FROM GRUENESSCHAF REGARDING THE STYLE REWORK IN ANOTHER THREAD!

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Sep 2020 7:55 AM
Chain change will still come, the entire reason for the delay is that I would like to fix more than just that to then consider styles "done", the problem is just the how / how exactly.

Mon 28 Sep 2020 7:34 AM by imweasel

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Sep 2020 1:38 PM
UPDATE FROM GRUENESSCHAF REGARDING THE STYLE REWORK IN ANOTHER THREAD!

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Sep 2020 7:55 AM
Chain change will still come, the entire reason for the delay is that I would like to fix more than just that to then consider styles "done", the problem is just the how / how exactly.

After seeing the rr5 ideas and the "archery revamp", IMHO I'm petrified by the "style rework". Didn't the long chain styles in pvp get borked up due to some coding change they introduced to begin with?

Mon 28 Sep 2020 8:00 AM by gotwqqd

imweasel wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 7:34 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Sep 2020 1:38 PM
UPDATE FROM GRUENESSCHAF REGARDING THE STYLE REWORK IN ANOTHER THREAD!

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Sep 2020 7:55 AM
Chain change will still come, the entire reason for the delay is that I would like to fix more than just that to then consider styles "done", the problem is just the how / how exactly.

After seeing the rr5 ideas and the "archery revamp", IMHO I'm petrified by the "style rework". Didn't the long chain styles in pvp get borked up due to some coding change they introduced to begin with?

Yea
Rng is no random on this server
They changed it so streaks are less likely
I hate it

Mon 28 Sep 2020 9:00 AM by labra

maybe we could help, like on a testing server or event

Mon 28 Sep 2020 2:25 PM by imweasel

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 8:00 AM
imweasel wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 7:34 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Sep 2020 1:38 PM
UPDATE FROM GRUENESSCHAF REGARDING THE STYLE REWORK IN ANOTHER THREAD!

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Sep 2020 7:55 AM
Chain change will still come, the entire reason for the delay is that I would like to fix more than just that to then consider styles "done", the problem is just the how / how exactly.

After seeing the rr5 ideas and the "archery revamp", IMHO I'm petrified by the "style rework". Didn't the long chain styles in pvp get borked up due to some coding change they introduced to begin with?
Yea
Rng is no random on this server
They changed it so streaks are less likely
I hate it

So wouldn't the obvious fix would be to remove that code?

Why do the devs always take a sledgehammer to everything?

Mon 28 Sep 2020 5:03 PM by Delsaer

Sorry if this is well known by everyone, but what is the to-hit change they made on Phoenix that borked the long style chains?

Mon 28 Sep 2020 5:19 PM by Bradekes

Delsaer wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 5:03 PM
Sorry if this is well known by everyone, but what is the to-hit change they made on Phoenix that borked the long style chains?

So let's say you have a 25% evade rate. Everytime you don't evade a hit your chance to evade raises until it hits 100%. It makes it much harder to get off a 4 style chain when the last hit might have a 5% chance to not get evaded in this instance.

Every form of defense follows this design as well as resistance and miss chance.

Mon 28 Sep 2020 6:03 PM by

gruenesschaf

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 5:19 PM
So let's say you have a 25% evade rate. Everytime you don't evade a hit your chance to evade raises until it hits 100%. It makes it much harder to get off a 4 style chain when the last hit might have a 5% chance to not get evaded in this instance.

Every form of defense follows this design as well as resistance and miss chance.

While conceptually correct, there is just a single defensive roll, having multiple individual rolls each covered by this system would lead to rather weird results. It's also not used for spell resists, that's covered by a deterministic system to avoid certain kinds of streaks entirely. Aside from the defensive rolls it's primarily used for pretty much everything positive like crits, procs, mp crafting.

A pretty good explanation would be this: https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Random_distribution

Tue 29 Sep 2020 9:53 AM by labra

What I would like to see is styles working like the back styles in CD .

You have Snow Shower as opener and you can choose either Gale or Thunderstorm as follow-up.

With a style revamp like this, more gameplay is induced (do I want a snare, a bleed, a stun ? )

Tue 29 Sep 2020 10:57 AM by gotwqqd

labra wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Sep 2020 9:53 AM
What I would like to see is styles working like the back styles in CD .

You have Snow Shower as opener and you can choose either Gale or Thunderstorm as follow-up.

With a style revamp like this, more gameplay is induced (do I want a snare, a bleed, a stun ? )

I’m leveling a champion
Why is a second part of chain from reactionary only a 2 sec stun? And it’s even worse considering it’s in LW line and it’s simply to short to move into a positional.

Fri 2 Oct 2020 1:51 PM by labra

the stun duration is low because que skil level is quite low too (12)

you'll have almost same thing in blunt (2s, level 4) and blade (4s, level 21).

Could be tweaked though but it's almost similar in duration than a casted stun from eldritch (3s, level 5 spell)

But that's where it would be great to change style line and letting you choose to either land a stun or the follow-up (Gigantic Blow).
This way you would have a on-parry chain you can use at low level and "boost" later on while getting rid of the 2s stun component.

Fri 2 Oct 2020 2:03 PM by DinoTriz

I also like the choice between follow-ups.

There are some that are clearly easy choices though.

"Do you want the style that bleeds for 4 damage per tick or the one that does a 7 second stun?"

Hmm...tough choice lol

But it would be nice to boost the bleed numbers across the board to make that decision a little harder to make.

Choosing between a stun and positional style of play, or a massive bleed play style, or a debuff play style, etc would make melee way more interesting and diverse.

Fri 2 Oct 2020 2:31 PM by gotwqqd

labra wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 1:51 PM
the stun duration is low because que skil level is quite low too (12)

you'll have almost same thing in blunt (2s, level 4) and blade (4s, level 21).

Could be tweaked though but it's almost similar in duration than a casted stun from eldritch (3s, level 5 spell)

But that's where it would be great to change style line and letting you choose to either land a stun or the follow-up (Gigantic Blow).
This way you would have a on-parry chain you can use at low level and "boost" later on while getting rid of the 2s stun component.

It doesn’t matter...the point is it was I’ll conceived
The follow up should have been placed higher?
But does it really matter where any are placed aside the 38/44/50 styles?
It would be far better to be a medium tick bleed,
The stun length is almost pointless on such a lumbering weapon size.

Isn’t dps extrapolated by weapon speed? So slow weapons lose out in so many ways compared to the other lines.
They should move the second part up to say 44 for the long stun
And give the enemy block/parry whatever it is a bleed or something

Fri 2 Oct 2020 5:56 PM by labra

Ok I misundestrood you post then :p

Agree, low level stuns should be improved (ASR, slow, bleed)

Tue 13 Oct 2020 5:28 PM by Dzzl

So the changes will be more live like? Are you going to add extra affects to the styles similar to live like for friars to heal doing combat?

Tue 13 Oct 2020 6:26 PM by labra

Highly doubt. Would add too much imbalance

Thu 15 Oct 2020 9:30 PM by

gruenesschaf

superseded by https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/26586-style-changes