Remove endu pots

Started 25 Aug 2018
by Sayuri
in Suggestions
hello, we should remove endu pots for have a real point in having a sham/bard and paladin in rvr actually i m 4L4 and i never see a single paladin in rvr...
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:39 PM by phixion
Nope.

How exactly do you expect stealthers to play without endurance?
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:40 PM by Sayuri
how do they play before when no pots was possible ?
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:47 PM by phixion
Sayuri wrote:
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:40 PM
how do they play before when no pots was possible ?


Painfully. Imagine getting into a fight and running out of end mid fight and having to auto attack. So fun!

This isn't something that can be easily fixed, you can't drastically change classes in the hopes they will become viable for RvR groups.

The Determination changes helped but probably not enough to choose them over other classes. And then there's the attitude of players, elitist attitudes have become the mainstream in many cases and people want the perfect group.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:48 PM by Ganaka
Everyone here thinks that they are elite, yet they want as many free (or cheap) buffs as possible. The question I have is.. If they are so elite, why do they need so many buffs?
Sat 25 Aug 2018 2:24 PM by Sayuri
phixion wrote:
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:47 PM
Sayuri wrote:
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:40 PM
how do they play before when no pots was possible ?


Painfully. Imagine getting into a fight and running out of end mid fight and having to auto attack. So fun!

This isn't something that can be easily fixed, you can't drastically change classes in the hopes they will become viable for RvR groups.

The Determination changes helped but probably not enough to choose them over other classes. And then there's the attitude of players, elitist attitudes have become the mainstream in many cases and people want the perfect group.

and did you see a single time bard switching ? no cause they dont need to do it
Sat 25 Aug 2018 2:30 PM by Zansobar
Ganaka wrote:
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:48 PM
Everyone here thinks that they are elite, yet they want as many free (or cheap) buffs as possible. The question I have is.. If they are so elite, why do they need so many buffs?

I would say because the game was played with buffbots back when 1.65 was live. That is the baseline that everyone is comparing everything to.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 2:35 PM by Zansobar
The only way Paladins are going to be groupable in RvR is to increase the Paladin base damage table (right now Paladins are on a Factor 19 damage table compared to Factor 22 for Armsmen/mercenaries). This means Armsmen and mercs do 16% more base damage than Paladins before even considering weapon styles or spec. Either this or give Paladins some "must have" group chant. Forcing Albion to group a Paladin just so he can be an endo bot doesn't seem like the right answer.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 2:37 PM by relvinian
Paladins, shamans, friars, wardens, none of those classes really need to spend money on invig pots.

That is still a sleight benefit, also when leveling.

At the end of the day the classes which need love that could be considered.

Balance classes, balance realms at the end of beta.

Then buff a couple classes which need love towards the end.

Give love to those who need it.

Don't nerf.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 2:43 PM by Zansobar
Come to think of it...one of the problems in the game IMHO is that there is only one true speed class in each realm and speed is a must have in RvR group...what if some of these underdesired classes were given speed (bard, minstrel, skald speed)? For example, what if Paladin chants got speed? Or perhaps Friar...maybe Champions or Thanes...I don't know but there are a boatload of classes that are not grouped in RvR and being forced to have to have a speed class or get rolled has always been a weak link in my opinion.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 3:06 PM by Takii
This is only a problem for Paladins. Bards and Shamans are absolutely not negatively affected by endurance pots because they bring other very necessary tools to their groups.

The solution isn't to nerf endurance pots but to buff paladins a bit to make them viable. This isn't a new problem.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 3:46 PM by Rabbitstew
Sayuri wrote:
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:26 PM
hello, we should remove endu pots for have a real point in having a sham/bard and paladin in rvr actually i m 4L4 and i never see a single paladin in rvr...

It's simple absurdity or just plain ignorance to place the Shaman, Bard, and Paladin in the same group here. There are plenty of Shamans and Bards out despite there being endo pots. Why? They bring other useful and even unique aspects to the table that other classes cannot replicate. Paladin does not do this, and that's why they're currently extinct.

There are good reasons to get rid of potions (ones valid, though I may not necessarily agree with), but this is not one of them.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 4:32 PM by rubaduck
If the notion is to remove endo pots to make paladins more viable, you have completely missed the point on why a paladin sucks in RVR. Not even Mythic managed to make paladins viable, and it is because the class itself is dreadful designed in the first place.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 4:33 PM by Sayuri
Rabbitstew wrote:
Sat 25 Aug 2018 3:46 PM
Sayuri wrote:
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:26 PM
hello, we should remove endu pots for have a real point in having a sham/bard and paladin in rvr actually i m 4L4 and i never see a single paladin in rvr...

It's simple absurdity or just plain ignorance to place the Shaman, Bard, and Paladin in the same group here. There are plenty of Shamans and Bards out despite there being endo pots. Why? They bring other useful and even unique aspects to the table that other classes cannot replicate. Paladin does not do this, and that's why they're currently extinct.

There are good reasons to get rid of potions (ones valid, though I may not necessarily agree with), but this is not one of them.

i bring them in same spot for one reason actually sham are not spec endu like in time and are more spec in cave, and bard isnt switching chant anymore
Sat 25 Aug 2018 5:46 PM by Takii
A Bard not switching to endu in a fight is a bad bard and removing endu pots isn't gonna solve that problem. Endu pots do not provide enough regen to rely only on them in a real fight.

It's sad but endu pots are necessary to make alb groups viable in RvR at this patch level. The core abilities that every Hib and Mid group has are spread out on more than 8 classes in Alb, and Paladins are the easiest class to cut from the group setup.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 5:54 PM by Weezull
Endurance pots are fine; remove the stat buff potions. As it stands right now, lines like Pathfinding are pretty much useless. You need to spend a lot of points into the line to make it worth getting over the buff pots, and even then you can just go really low PF and put the points into other skills, which combined with buff pots will make you hit way harder. Classes with self-buffs are balanced around those buffs, and removing buffbots doesn't even matter since the buffpots just replace the self-buff lines anyway.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 6:17 PM by Sayuri
Takii wrote:
Sat 25 Aug 2018 5:46 PM
A Bard not switching to endu in a fight is a bad bard and removing endu pots isn't gonna solve that problem. Endu pots do not provide enough regen to rely only on them in a real fight.

It's sad but endu pots are necessary to make alb groups viable in RvR at this patch level. The core abilities that every Hib and Mid group has are spread out on more than 8 classes in Alb, and Paladins are the easiest class to cut from the group setup.

its so easy to have endu pots lvl 4 is pretty enough to rely only on them in a real fight and with tireless 2 and long wind 1 you can stay in sprint and fight so easly with these endu 4 pots and to make the grp alb viable in rvr is pretty easy, actually if the shamy was giving end instead of pots the tank will not rush like they are doing now, only 1k range for end shamy if i m not misstaken so the shamy need to be in center of the grp
Sat 25 Aug 2018 7:31 PM by Takii
Endu range is 2000 for everyone. A shaman brings way more than endu to a group and like I said the existence of pots makes zero difference to how desired they will be in groups. Same for bards. Please try running a Bard-less RvR group and tell me how that goes.

You're arguing for the wrong thing. You should be asking for Paladins to be made viable since they are the only class negatively impacted by endu pots.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 7:44 PM by Bethoc
There needs to be a willingness to move beyond minor changes like the increased ranged endurance chant, as nice as that is. There are a few ways that the paladin's role in a group could be strengthened and better defined, without usurping other classes or forcing a loss of endurance potions (which are a godsend to melees).

Note that some style lines have unique growth rates and prerequisites for different classes. Blademasters and nightshades with Celtic Dual, for instance. The Paladin could have growth rates for 1-handed weapon lines increased, such as slash and crush and thrust. This would be unique to them and could increase their damage enough that they are an actual threat, without quite matching dedicated MDPS classes. Their damage table is already 1.9, which is equal to or higher than all hybrids (1.8 and 1.9) besides Valewalkers (2.1). In my mind, paladins are masters of the blade and shield, defensive warriors of light and faith, and it makes sense for them to excel at S/S. S/S is just naturally low damage.

Also realize that their only hinder for peeling is thrust's 44 Wyvernfang style (2nd in anytime chain) and slash's 12s side positional. Why not give a longer duration option with slash's 39 Back Slash positional and move crush's almost useless 39 Bone Crusher parry reactionary hinder to 25 Divine Hammer back positional? This would improve their peeling. If a back hinder seems too good, put it on something like Blackjack (2nd in crush anytime chain) or Cleave (2nd in slash anytime chain). Those would be no better than other realms, and again, unique to paladins.

Another option is a flat improvement to their non-endurance chants, those being AF, healing, and damage add. The numbers could be tweaked and nerfed in the future if they're too strong. They are supportive abilities that enhance group members, which is exactly the utility muscle they're lacking in relation to other hybrids that do find groups right now despite the irrelevance of endo.

Classes reliant on self-buffs for an advantage could use a look too. Friars, rangers, and hunters come to mind. Possibly champions, reavers. I've heard that the bonedancer was crippled by a pet level limitation. It seems natural and desirable to me that class balance is adjusted on a continual basis as new server-wide customizations are introduced. The dev team hopefully has enough voices to speak for all realms and playstyles, and if not, well, the forum certainly does. I appreciate those vote and discussion threads on balance decisions.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 8:23 PM by Rabbitstew
Sayuri wrote:
Sat 25 Aug 2018 4:33 PM
Rabbitstew wrote:
Sat 25 Aug 2018 3:46 PM
Sayuri wrote:
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:26 PM
hello, we should remove endu pots for have a real point in having a sham/bard and paladin in rvr actually i m 4L4 and i never see a single paladin in rvr...

It's simple absurdity or just plain ignorance to place the Shaman, Bard, and Paladin in the same group here. There are plenty of Shamans and Bards out despite there being endo pots. Why? They bring other useful and even unique aspects to the table that other classes cannot replicate. Paladin does not do this, and that's why they're currently extinct.

There are good reasons to get rid of potions (ones valid, though I may not necessarily agree with), but this is not one of them.

i bring them in same spot for one reason actually sham are not spec endu like in time and are more spec in cave, and bard isnt switching chant anymore

If Shamans aren't going for endo, then they aren't going for all their other spec buffs either, which is a mistake. A group-focus shaman will want those higher spec buffs, because that's a core part of their job in group play. So they'll get endo buff as a bonus, really.

Bards not twisting their endo song is a mistake on the bard's part. Twisting songs can be done on the run, so a good Bard will twist during movement between castings. And you'd be surprised how much endo (even with endo4 pot, tirelss, long wind) a melee will go through in a fight, especially ones throwing Slam around constantly. That endo song stacks with everything, so keeping endo up is important.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 10:25 PM by defiasbandit
If they removed endo pots I am not even sure I'd still play. Running in slow motion on 90% of the heroes is beyond terrible.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 11:43 PM by Bigga
yes, remove endu pots please, also hastener.... its not "real" classic server with that.
Sun 26 Aug 2018 6:15 PM by Takii
You clearly have never even logged into this server if you think this is a "real" classic server...
Sun 26 Aug 2018 6:32 PM by aso
Remove endu pots
Learn to be social and group, build your own 8man
DAoC is not a Team vs team game where ppl pull off if they get add
DAoC is a mmo rvr Game and not a solo or smallman game
Sun 26 Aug 2018 7:14 PM by Ganaka
I don't think there should be buff pots of any kinds. Potions that give an instant recovery would be fine if there is a decent cool down, but I don't like the idea of regen or buff pots at all.

IMHO, One of the best features of old school DAOC was that players could not be Superman. There were no gods running around. In fact, most characters had multiple faults. I'm GONE if this game turns into a 1v1 dick-measuring contest.
Sun 26 Aug 2018 8:22 PM by Takii
Ganaka wrote:
Sun 26 Aug 2018 7:14 PM
I don't think there should be buff pots of any kinds. Potions that give an instant recovery would be fine if there is a decent cool down, but I don't like the idea of regen or buff pots at all.

IMHO, One of the best features of old school DAOC was that players could not be Superman. There were no gods running around. In fact, most characters had multiple faults. I'm GONE if this game turns into a 1v1 dick-measuring contest.

How does endu regen potions make anyone a God?
Sun 26 Aug 2018 8:28 PM by Quik
Ganaka wrote:
Sun 26 Aug 2018 7:14 PM
I don't think there should be buff pots of any kinds. Potions that give an instant recovery would be fine if there is a decent cool down, but I don't like the idea of regen or buff pots at all.

IMHO, One of the best features of old school DAOC was that players could not be Superman. There were no gods running around. In fact, most characters had multiple faults. I'm GONE if this game turns into a 1v1 dick-measuring contest.

This will be the main factor in driving me away.

People keep saying they need pots to be competitive. There is a reason some classes (Rangers/Hunters come to mind) get a SELF BUFFING LINE. Having pots kills the value of self buffs when everyone can get buffs anyway.

I will play through beta, and I will certainly play live for a time, but if everything stays as it is I will quietly move on. I don't see why pots are encouraged here, yet a lot of classes are shoved into the cellar.

Get rid of pots and make ALL classes viable, not just a select few.

I get people want to solo, and they can. I'm not sure why they are entitled to bonuses for it though. Solo all you want and get bonus RP's for it, but why are we giving them easy middle of the road shaman buffs for doing it?

Play small man all you want, but again why are we allowing a group of 3-4 easy free middle of the road shaman buffs? Make them take a buffing class if they want buffs or else make them play as their class was designed.

I understand 8mans are hated in a lot of circles, but why give BONUSES to people who choose to play with only a few people? Play with just 1-2 all you want but stop giving them free buffs for doing it, it takes away from those classes and it hurts the classes that have the self buff lines since they won't be able to use their own buff line as an advantage as much.

And endo pots give perma sprint which again takes away from classes you would normally need for it. Also they give melee all the free styles they want without penalty.
Sun 26 Aug 2018 10:56 PM by Whitecrow
Buff pots and Endo pots all gimp buffing self buffing and Endo classes.

I belive they should not be in game.

But all stealthers should have tireless for free then and long wind .

Considering light takes can charge stealthers and enmys at no cost.
Sun 26 Aug 2018 11:15 PM by phixion
I just don't like the way the game plays without buffs, it's sluggish and boring.

Removing endurance pots won't make Paladins viable, but absolutely necessary in groups.

If pots are removed, there needs to be changes to endurance usage. Fighting without Endurance with auto attack is not fun.
Sun 26 Aug 2018 11:40 PM by Quik
phixion wrote:
Sun 26 Aug 2018 11:15 PM
I just don't like the way the game plays without buffs, it's sluggish and boring.

Removing endurance pots won't make Paladins viable, but absolutely necessary in groups.

If pots are removed, there needs to be changes to endurance usage. Fighting without Endurance with auto attack is not fun.

It isn't, but it is the whole point about needing a group.

The game was designed with group balance in mind. You have a couple melee, a couple nukers, a healer or 2 and a buffer and maybe speed.

I know people hate 8man's, but the game was developed around that exact setup. If you try to rebalance around small mans you will NEVER end up with any type of balance.

Look at it now? People scream and cry because they NEED pots to compete, when in fact if no one had pots they would still compete. Again all this does it reduce classes like rangers or hunters or any class with self buffs because now everyone has them and that eliminates a big part of what should be an advantage.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 12:27 AM by phixion
I’m referring to stealth fights, not visibles.

I stopped participating in 8 mans because it was more trouble than it was worth; too much standing around waiting for certain classes, people quitting after a death and screwing the entire group, back to more standing around waiting.

I wish people would stop saying the game was made for 8 man, it wasn’t at all.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 12:32 AM by Bustermann25
Yeah, remove pots all together. Bring back buffbots or NPC buffs that last until you die. Nobody liked Uthgard, so quit trying to replicate what Uthgard did on this server. Why is this such a difficult thing to comprehend? People like options, buffs give people options, 8 mans will still 8 man. You remove solo, and small man by removing QoL buffs from them and people will quit playing. If you don't like buff pots, or QoL, or more people in the frontier zones, then Uthgard is still available. Oh.. but i think Uthgard might be adding additional charges to their pots also.. ya know cause people loved it so much before.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 12:55 AM by Quik
phixion wrote:
Mon 27 Aug 2018 12:27 AM
I’m referring to stealth fights, not visibles.

I stopped participating in 8 mans because it was more trouble than it was worth; too much standing around waiting for certain classes, people quitting after a death and screwing the entire group, back to more standing around waiting.

I wish people would stop saying the game was made for 8 man, it wasn’t at all.

There is nothing wrong with soloing or small manning, but the game was designed with a full group in mind, they just didn't how far it would go.

When the game first came out, you could barely kill a blue solo. I remember playing in beta asking about why some mobs were too hard and the response I got from Mythic, not EA, this was Mythic, was they wanted people to be social. They wanted people to group and that is how they designed the game.

Now again, it doesn't mean they didn't want people to solo, but when it first came out grouping was their main concern which is why they designed it for up to a group of 8. They had the typical EQ mentality was that a full group could do more and it just naturally ended up in RvR.

It was later that they learned how much money they could earn off buffbots that things really changed drastically.

Can we solo and small man? Yes but plz don't try to say DAoC was designed with them in mind as most of the harder bosses EARLY in the game even before 1.65 were to much for most people. power creep changed all that of course.

I do not think the game should focus on just 8man, but I also do not think we should sacrifice the game JUST so solo and small mans can do more.

now if you want to say the game evolved into solo and small man, well that I have no issues, but it was designed originally around groups.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 1:12 AM by phixion
Mobs were too hard because you got zero gear, everyone was in gray junk and missing armour slots. If you could afford armour it was from the merchant with no stats.

I’m not talking about PvE here, I’m talking RvR.

Not sure how you expect people playing stealthers to play, we all know groups won’t allow them in.

My main concern is, how boring is the game going to become with no buffs and no endurance? I prefer the way the game plays with buff bots, but at the same time understand why they shouldn’t be allowed.

I’d say realm buffers are the better option but then there’s the balancing issues.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 4:22 AM by Quik
How do I expect stealthers to play? Like they did before all the buff bots/pots/whatever. They did still compete back then.

If NO ONE has pots then the classes like rangers and hunters actually gain some ground they lost. Thanes actually have a TINY bit of an advantage.

People will need Paladins more (that's a tough one but maybe)

Exactly how did people play before pots and buff bots? They simply played within their abilities.

No perma sprint without having a shaman/pally/bard, just whatever speed you got if you have it. If not get a hastener to get where you are going, but you lose speed when you attack or attack and now deal with it.

Simple fact is, people want endo regen pots more than anything and close second are stat buffs so they are more powerful, but you aren't really more powerful if everyone has them, you just water down the classes with self buffs that should be able to use them as an advantage.

Pots aren't going away we all know that, but they do take away from the game. Now people have a way to get around grouping with some classes and get decent buffs still. Pots won't replace the shaman in 8mans, but they can certainly replace the shaman for 3mans. Not sure how people see this as fair.

It sucks to be solo and not have buffs or speed. It sucks to be small man and not have buffs and speed. But that was the sacrifice that was made, you picked your few partners with care.

And BTW, anyone who played beta know about the mobs being a hell of a lot tougher, and not just because of lack of armor or weapons. I remember starting in Humberton and trying to kill blue mobs without much success. That was changed a few patches into the game after it went live. Things just got easier for lvling. It wasn't just learning where to go although that helped, it was simply harder. Yes it was PvE, but it was still different.

People adapted without buff pots.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 11:53 AM by Edelherb
An answer to this question is very difficult to give. Pots and endurance pots in particular are only one aspect in a complex interconnected system with feedback loops. The human mind is not able to handle this kind of problems which is why scientist use simulations to "solve -> approximate" them. The aspects touched by the question are at least: value of classes with self-buffs, value of classes with group-buffs, qol and what is perceived as qol over time (changed over the years), vision of the game (something for everyone, 8v8 optimized ...), time players are willing to invest, size of the areas to fight in (BG style, Emain style) and many more.

So I suggest to stop discussing a question like "endo pots yes / no" and discuss what we all want most from Phoenix. This would result in 1-2 pages of text describing what we aim for and allows to derive answers from it.

From the changes made so far (orig. DAoC -> Phonix) I assume the vision is: Make solo play possible but real value comes from a group, do not waste the players time without added benefit, reduce complexity where ever possible, balance towards 8v8, make all classes viable, make all classes wanted (different thing), generate fun with less downtime. But this is obviously only part of it.

I think once we have a good understanding where we all want to go here we can make decisions like "remove endu pots" much better.

Edelherb
Mon 27 Aug 2018 1:43 PM by aso
paladins are useless because of pots
hurts other classes to, so remove everything and make this server same as uthgard
buffpotions make buffclasses useless
we need more 8mans, learn to be social
Mon 27 Aug 2018 2:50 PM by phixion
aso wrote: we need more 8mans, learn to be social


Learn to accept that not everyone wants to 8 man e.g. Stealthers especially. Being social is not always the problem, it's being prepared to log in and stand around for long periods waiting for certain classes to log on. That is not something some of us can or want to do. When I log on, I want to play. I don't want my play time to be determined by other people... ain't gonna happen.


Quik wrote: How do I expect stealthers to play? Like they did before all the buff bots/pots/whatever. They did still compete back then.


The game was very different back then, people had enough of a shock going back to 1.65 on Uthgard.


Quik wrote: If NO ONE has pots then the classes like rangers and hunters actually gain some ground they lost. Thanes actually have a TINY bit of an advantage.


True.


Quik wrote: People will need Paladins more (that's a tough one but maybe)


They will absolutely require a Paladin to compete, 8 man is already plagued by peoples attitudes of "must have" classes, having to rely on 1 class in a game to be able to go out and RvR isn't a good thing.


Quik wrote: And BTW, anyone who played beta know about the mobs being a hell of a lot tougher, and not just because of lack of armor or weapons. I remember starting in Humberton and trying to kill blue mobs without much success. That was changed a few patches into the game after it went live. Things just got easier for lvling. It wasn't just learning where to go although that helped, it was simply harder. Yes it was PvE, but it was still different.


I played US beta before EU release, but I can't say I have vivid memories of things like mob difficulty. All I remember is everyone wearing little to no gear and it taking months to hit 50.

If staff here could make it work without pots, I'm all for it. But I'm not convinced it will make for a fun game. Maybe when i50 is in they can do a test by removing pots and see how people feel?
Mon 27 Aug 2018 4:57 PM by defiasbandit
Removing endurance pots will make the game unplayable for many. Why screw over more than half the classes just to benefit Paladins.

The success of the server is contingent upon creating a welcoming and rewarding environment for players not running 8man guild groups. This server has no chance if RvR is dictated by those types.

This was a huge issue on other shards and on Live back during SI 02-03. Casual players quit PvP games for these reasons: they are unable to get any kills early on, are excluded from groups, forced into long waits to find action, and subjected to toxic elitist players. Phoenix can not be defined by that, especially if the server is to survive beyond a few months.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 6:55 PM by Ganaka
defiasbandit wrote:
Mon 27 Aug 2018 4:57 PM
Removing endurance pots will make the game unplayable for many. Why screw over more than half the classes just to benefit Paladins.

The success of the server is contingent upon creating a welcoming and rewarding environment for players not running 8man guild groups. This server has no chance if RvR is dictated by those types.

This was a huge issue on other shards and on Live back during SI 02-03. Casual players quit PvP games for these reasons: they are unable to get any kills early on, are excluded from groups, forced into long waits to find action, and subjected to toxic elitist players. Phoenix can not be defined by that, especially if the server is to survive beyond a few months.

How will removing potions cause casuals to quit? You lost me here. Are you saying casuals are too lazy to get the pots and will die faster RVR? Don't the elites want their fodder to die fast?
Mon 27 Aug 2018 7:10 PM by rubaduck
Quik wrote:
Mon 27 Aug 2018 4:22 AM
How do I expect stealthers to play? Like they did before all the buff bots/pots/whatever. They did still compete back then.


They played with buffs. Buffbots was in the game throughout vanilla so it was common. The game can be played fine in PVE without buffs, but don't think for a second that no endo pots or no buffs will help pvp one bit because it did not back then either. It will utterly destroy stealthers, solo and some smallman. And to which benefit? To see if a class, who is already utterly doomed and dare I say it: Useless, become viable? Paladins never had a place in the game. It is sub-par as a melee character, and it's support is the only factor that you can leave it in a group, yet it will stump it and make the group totally unviable.

Try to break it down: Who is dependant on endu pots? Melee classes are to be able to use their combat styles, which also includes stealthers like infiltrator, shadowblade and nightshade. Also ranger, hunter and scout. So we remove endu pots, will 8-man RVR be affected? Nope. You now force a Paladin in to all alb groups, making their group setup 100% unviable while midgard can just use the very same shaman they always had in their group, and hibernia can use the very same bard that they are using to play endu song. So who has the benefit? Well hibs and mids, you just pretty much assured that all albion 8v8 groups are fleeing the realm because nobody will ever try to make an 8v8 group with a pally while the ones still left will lose nearly every fight because they are more or less 7 v 8. So by removing endu pots, you're not only removing the capeability to have a stealth war going, but you are tipping over every 8 man group in albion realm. The consequences are huge and will result in unfair pvp all over the board.

Just because you want it to make it more "vanilla"? And keep in mind that alchemist was added in SI, and were available in 1.65. The buffs were not, but that is to give some comensation to small man and solo.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 7:12 PM by heardstheword
Ganaka wrote:
Mon 27 Aug 2018 6:55 PM
How will removing potions cause casuals to quit? You lost me here. Are you saying casuals are too lazy to get the pots and will die faster RVR? Don't the elites want their fodder to die fast?

There's some common delusion amongst the noisy few on these forums that buffpots completely removes any need for any buff class in any group ever.

If I had a dollar for every time people argued against buffpots by stating support classes will no longer needed....
Mon 27 Aug 2018 7:55 PM by Quik
rubaduck wrote:
Mon 27 Aug 2018 7:10 PM
Just because you want it to make it more "vanilla"? And keep in mind that alchemist was added in SI, and were available in 1.65. The buffs were not, but that is to give some comensation to small man and solo.

I am ALL for 99% of the QOL changes on this server.

I am NOT for something that waters down some classes just to make other classes FEEL like they can compete even though they can without the buff pots.

Again, if NO ONE had buff pots then EVERYONE would be on the same footing.

By adding buff pots you are basically taking away from classes with self buff lines and making them not as big of a deal.

And as for the "Buff pots replacing buffing classes?" It most certainly has replaced some. Paladin is replaced basically 100%. Shamans/Druid/Enhance clerics are still much better than buff pots and they will remain around, other healing classes are not as big now since you can do buff pots and their base buffs aren't as big of a deal.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 8:06 PM by heardstheword
Forcing paladins back into groups by removing end buffs is a poor way to make paladin viable again. They just become a lynchpin rather than a welcomed addition.

If a single item can completely negate the usefulness of a class, that's a bad class not an OP item.

Then again, I am of the mindset of buff the single class to be on par rather than nerf everyone down to their level.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 8:21 PM by rubaduck
Quik wrote:
Mon 27 Aug 2018 7:55 PM
rubaduck wrote:
Mon 27 Aug 2018 7:10 PM
Just because you want it to make it more "vanilla"? And keep in mind that alchemist was added in SI, and were available in 1.65. The buffs were not, but that is to give some comensation to small man and solo.

I am ALL for 99% of the QOL changes on this server.

I am NOT for something that waters down some classes just to make other classes FEEL like they can compete even though they can without the buff pots.

Again, if NO ONE had buff pots then EVERYONE would be on the same footing.

By adding buff pots you are basically taking away from classes with self buff lines and making them not as big of a deal.

And as for the "Buff pots replacing buffing classes?" It most certainly has replaced some. Paladin is replaced basically 100%. Shamans/Druid/Enhance clerics are still much better than buff pots and they will remain around, other healing classes are not as big now since you can do buff pots and their base buffs aren't as big of a deal.


Ok I agree on the buff pots, they are not really a problem or a necessity for me, but endu pots... no chance in the black fiery hell will paladin become viable if you remove endu pots, and the paladin --in it's current form, will never become viable!
Mon 27 Aug 2018 9:39 PM by Quik
Oh I agree in that the Paladin needs a lot of help, but blue endo pots are the nail in the coffin for them.

A few classes need a lot of help if they want them used in RvR. If they are only concerned about being classic it really doesn't matter, we'll have the same build setup that Uth and every other server runs.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 11:25 PM by Niix
Quik wrote:
Mon 27 Aug 2018 9:39 PM
Oh I agree in that the Paladin needs a lot of help, but blue endo pots are the nail in the coffin for them.

A few classes need a lot of help if they want them used in RvR. If they are only concerned about being classic it really doesn't matter, we'll have the same build setup that Uth and every other server runs.

Keep in mind groups will always find a way to min max setups for optimal performance, buffing one may nerf another out of group. (May)
Mon 27 Aug 2018 11:48 PM by Quik
Groups will always adapt. Absolutely.

Look, this is a tough subject.

I understand that solo's and smallmans are wanting to compete and I don't want to take that away. I understand 8mans usually dominate and I don't want it to continue that way either.

BUT...sacrificing some classes just so some classes are more competitive seems like the wrong direction. I don't play rangers or hunters or thanes or champions or friars or reavers...if I liked these classes though I would prefer no buff pots because it is taking away 1 of the things that makes me competitive, self buffs. I can still self buff but now so can everyone else. What gave me an advantage doesn't anymore. Friars had a self endo ability which gave them an advantage if they could get the other class to run out of endo. Guess what? Blue endo pots eliminate that advantage, njow everyone had full endo all the time.

I want to figure out a way to help solo/smallmans that doesn't water down the classes. IMHO buff pots do exactly that.
Tue 28 Aug 2018 11:24 PM by Niix
How about the idea that all self buffs stack with regular buffs and tune down the value if needed...
This would do two things:

1. Give back the benefit and original intent of self buffs to balance hybrids
2. Give more benefit and incentive for hybrids to group scene that everyone constantly complaining about

As for end reduction talent, not sure what to do with it... still small benefit of it.


Paladins still need something cuz I don’t think they get self buff just chants... probably just need some budding on chants. Maybe give them end 6 and buffs to other chants... maybe cap end buff to 3 value as well... as a tank group you start considering a pally at that point... still no need in caster but hybrids need to be niche and not main stream
Wed 29 Aug 2018 1:15 AM by Takii
Even with End3 pots (which were the common ones in real classic) and Paladins having End 6, Paladins are still mostly useless in a tank group.

End3 pots + Tireless 2/3 + Longwind 2 + a Friar for resists or another tank/caster > a Paladin.

Giving them Celerity would be too controversial. The only thing that makes sense to me is to buff their damage so it's a little closer to Armsmen, that way they are mostly interchangeable.
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:13 PM by Fiore
To me its simple !
- Leave Tireless at current state !
- Remove Endu and Buffpots at all !!!
- A combination of Tireless and Longwind will give you enough endu even in smallmengrps and 1 vs 1
- more or full endu take a paladin in grp .
- maybe add second wind RA as another custom change
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:15 PM by Niix
Why not just remove all the end/power/health regen pots... leave full end pots avail (the value ones).
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:20 PM by Fiore
Niix wrote:
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:15 PM
Why not just remove all the end/power/health regen pots... leave full end pots avail (the value ones).

Yes why not ? A small change and paladin would have a place in this World :-)
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:30 PM by Niix
Fiore wrote:
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:20 PM
Niix wrote:
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:15 PM
Why not just remove all the end/power/health regen pots... leave full end pots avail (the value ones).

Yes why not ? A small change and paladin would have a place in this World :-)

I like the idea of end regen pots, especially in pve but I do not love how it affects rvr. No bards run end unless you have 2 of them, just seems wrong.

Remove the regen pots, lower end style costs by 15-25% across the board and bring purpose back to paladins.
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:47 PM by faliv
Remove paladins, problem solved.
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:55 PM by Quik
faliv wrote:
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:47 PM
Remove paladins, problem solved.

Actually I think this is a good idea.

Dev's should consider completely revamping pally into something different.

Pally's are screwed at this time and no matter what you do you will have the people who want to stay true to 1.65 (No idea why) complaining it isn't classic.

Just ditch them and start fresh.
Sat 1 Sep 2018 9:10 PM by aso
Niix wrote:
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:15 PM
Why not just remove all the end/power/health regen pots... leave full end pots avail (the value ones).

Created Accounts: 56698
Players: 178
Sat 1 Sep 2018 9:53 PM by Fiore
faliv wrote:
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:47 PM
Remove paladins, problem solved.

Why not delete Albion ?. Albion needs Paladin for PVE. Thats why this whole Discussion started at the first place. No one will invest time in lvling a Paladin when there is no spot in PVP . Sure a few will make a Pala as an altchar to log in when needed for raids and such but in a couple of weeks after server goes live you will have a hard time finding one. All you can do is Powerlevel your Chars with necromancer.
Sat 1 Sep 2018 10:30 PM by faliv
Fiore wrote:
Sat 1 Sep 2018 9:53 PM
faliv wrote:
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:47 PM
Remove paladins, problem solved.

Why not delete Albion ?. Albion needs Paladin for PVE. Thats why this whole Discussion started at the first place. No one will invest time in lvling a Paladin when there is no spot in PVP . Sure a few will make a Pala as an altchar to log in when needed for raids and such but in a couple of weeks after server goes live you will have a hard time finding one. All you can do is Powerlevel your Chars with necromancer.

Oh realy?^^

But seriously, why not give arms endu in the shieldline (red endu at 50 or so) and remove the paladin completly? You have a char for rvr and you have endu while leveling up. Sligthly disadvantage for albion pve by loosing the healchant, but hey, no more endu problems.
Sat 1 Sep 2018 11:49 PM by Falken
I would be fine getting rid of endo regen pots, we made it work just fine on Uthgard. Bring back requiring essential classes in the group if you want the benefit. People are so used to speed 6 perm sprinting everywhere and the endo pots have only encouraged the building of half assed groups and lazy classes in that role.
Sun 2 Sep 2018 12:22 AM by Niix
Give paladins Stoich or a castable heal.

2 Hand pally train baby
Sun 2 Sep 2018 4:12 PM by Skorra
You want to play without pots and cool stuff?

Play Uthgard and be happy!
Sun 2 Sep 2018 4:13 PM by Quik
Fiore wrote:
Sat 1 Sep 2018 9:53 PM
faliv wrote:
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:47 PM
Remove paladins, problem solved.

Why not delete Albion ?. Albion needs Paladin for PVE. Thats why this whole Discussion started at the first place. No one will invest time in lvling a Paladin when there is no spot in PVP . Sure a few will make a Pala as an altchar to log in when needed for raids and such but in a couple of weeks after server goes live you will have a hard time finding one. All you can do is Powerlevel your Chars with necromancer.

Ummm...I have not grouped with a Paladin in weeks on Albion and that includes 1 raid, multiple feather farm groups and multiple RvR groups.

Not sure where you get the idea that Paladins are needed in the current system.
Sun 2 Sep 2018 6:03 PM by Fiore
Quik wrote:
Fiore wrote:
Sat 1 Sep 2018 9:53 PM
faliv wrote:
Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:47 PM
Remove paladins, problem solved.

Why not delete Albion ?. Albion needs Paladin for PVE. Thats why this whole Discussion started at the first place. No one will invest time in lvling a Paladin when there is no spot in PVP . Sure a few will make a Pala as an altchar to log in when needed for raids and such but in a couple of weeks after server goes live you will have a hard time finding one. All you can do is Powerlevel your Chars with necromancer.

Ummm...I have not grouped with a Paladin in weeks on Albion and that includes 1 raid, multiple feather farm groups and multiple RvR groups.

Not sure where you get the idea that Paladins are needed in the current system.

So its all about Enduregen pots now ? Where do you get endurance ? Full Caster necro grp ?
This topic is locked and you can't reply.

Return to Suggestions or the latest topics