[Q2 2020] Bard Amnesia

Started 25 Mar 2020
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=99782

Bard amnesia will have the range reduced, the initial test will be at bolt range. Increasing it later to 2000 could happen based on feedback.

The goal is to not really affect the bard gameplay in actual fights but just to make the ability for hib to force fights closer to the other realms. A possible alternative would have been to only make the combat flag happen when the target is below a certain range, however, there would have been no indication for the bard player.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:46 PM by Isavyr
Would it be possible to add more information to the amnesia such that the player would know if it was successful in breaking speed? I like your idea of amnesia breaking speed only within a certain range using the combat flag. This is a really difficult one to change as each change has potential downsides that affect the Bard where it shouldn't.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:49 PM by tyrantanic
The reduced range is fine by me as long as it stays at or above 1875 units.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:49 PM by Razur Ur
Plz nerf Hibernia more that nobody want joining this realm -_-, this is rly a reason for me not to playing on this server in the future :-/.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:50 PM by Kurbsen
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:39 PM
The goal is to not really affect the bard gameplay in actual fights but just to make the ability for hib to force fights closer to the other realms.


ofcourse this will affect bard gameplay? Why would this even be considered without giving bard their other abilities that helped balance out the nerf on live?

example:

2010 - they got mezz dampener, a second DD, and a single target root (I think root/dd was 2010, I couldnt find exact patch notes for it, but seems it was around that time)
2012 - bards confuse got 2 sec cast time and 1500 range

Bards amnesia was nerfed to 2k range but they were given these abilities that cancels out the nerf imo.

Please do not nerf amnesia range without giving bard what they should have then!
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:51 PM by Tubby
I think that the combat thing is better than reducing the range. 1875 is way to short to get a jump on a sorc. 2000 I would understand the change and probably accept it but 1875 way to short and something that has been around for 20 years to cut the range but 20% seems a bit much. I would try the combat approach before this.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:51 PM by jsx
Better Nerf all amnesia range then.

This is so unnecessary - The extra range is used because speed breaks is the only way hib casters can extend alb pets ><
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:52 PM by joy
This is a massive hit to a bards gameplay.

He will now have to put himself a lot closer to 'danger'.

If this goes through, can we have a higher level of the single Amnesia, so it doesn't resist so much?
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:53 PM by Asgoran
healers and sorcs amnesia stays 2300 range?!?! This nerf is silly, how would this not affect fights??
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:55 PM by Nefcait
Are you guys even looking at gvg list ? (which is basically an indicator of how competitive the realms are)
Hib is pretty underpowered since the HP changes, terrible change imo
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:56 PM by shin
from a 8vs8 perspective, quite a massive hit to bards, cant even cancel healers/cleric curing NS now, cause you will have to go deep. idk why you would nerf hib more at this point.

i get that it is annoying for smallmen to get caught by bard amnesia, but then find a different solution, not this one.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:59 PM by Ashman
adding speedtraps > this
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:04 PM by Isavyr
Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:50 PM
ofcourse this will affect bard gameplay? Why would this even be considered without giving bard their other abilities that helped balance out the nerf on live?
example:
2010 - they got mezz dampener, a second DD, and a single target root (I think root/dd was 2010, I couldnt find exact patch notes for it, but seems it was around that time)
2012 - bards confuse got 2 sec cast time and 1500 range

Bards amnesia was nerfed to 2k range but they were given these abilities that cancels out the nerf imo. Please do not nerf amnesia range without giving bard what they should have then!

I agree to an extent. The confuse situation is simply idiotic across the realms and I don't see why. Albion, which has the most RvR pet spam via theurgist, has the cheapest, farthest ranged, fastest-casting, base-line confuse. It's extremely imbalanced.

I think that confusion ought to be standardized to 2.5s, 1500 range, 24 power. I like uniqueness but there's no reason here. I think Hibernia could also use the slight boost to bard, which is a main component to their RvR.

Personally, I would rather the bard get their single DD boosted in range to 1500 than given roots in order to preserve uniqueness and better suit the bard's playstyle.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:08 PM by Tubby
2300 muscle memory range for 20 years...……….. gone. lol
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:14 PM by JimD
please explain @uthred why you are changing this. I don't even play hib atm but this change is pretty dumb, don't listen to the visable soloers crying about getting caught by a bard in a small man please
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:17 PM by Isavyr
JimD wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:14 PM
please explain @uthred why you are changing this. I don't even play hib atm but this change is pretty dumb, don't listen to the visable soloers crying about getting caught by a bard in a small man please

Why don't you suggest your own idea? I don't think anyone wants bards hurt, but the engagement imbalance is just that--an imbalance.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:19 PM by JimD
its been part of the game since launch? you can't fully balance realms without mirroring classes which is kinda what live has become. Learn to play around it simple as that
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:27 PM by Eoril
Mid cry because they get caught by amnesia when they ran away and didn't have an SOS up ?
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:30 PM by Isavyr
JimD wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:19 PM
its been part of the game since launch? you can't fully balance realms without mirroring classes which is kinda what live has become. Learn to play around it simple as that

Bullshit. Games can be very well balanced without being mirrors. Starcraft (1) is excellent model of this.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:43 PM by Tritri
At least make it so that if the bard is considered in combat, it still has access to the 2k3 range...

People are criticizing the fact that you can cut speed for so far away, not interrupt in fight

Don't fool yourselves, reducing the range IS going to affect bard gameplay during fights, of course it will


Maybe you can make it so bard amnesia doesn't break speed, but give them an instant break speed at bolt range ? Would need a lot of coding I guess but maybe ... ?


Not sure this is a good idea, but I understand the pressure from people crying on this 24/7 would finally have an impact on you
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:48 PM by Caemma
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:30 PM
JimD wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:19 PM
its been part of the game since launch? you can't fully balance realms without mirroring classes which is kinda what live has become. Learn to play around it simple as that

Bullshit. Games can be very well balanced without being mirrors. Starcraft (1) is excellent model of this.
Agreed, but this is not Blizzard... saddly
_______
Still doesn't make much sense this change, bard can't spam cast the spell - healers/sorcs can.
So why would you guys dumb down it?
What kind of interests are really behind this?

"Forcing closer fights" - what that is supposed to mean in a serious average gameplay? /ponder

Avoid bards to chase people down? Is this really something that would require such a technical change?
I mean, there are plenty other "unpleasant" things around that "annoy" people, still I guess you would never be able to address all of them..
Also if you keep twisting speed up you wouldn't -almost- even lose speed.. so, again.. whats the real reasons? :

Ps.
I've never heard a complain about that range by who knows how to drive properly, who knows the best routes, who actually use the environment at their advantage.. like.. never.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:50 PM by Isavyr
Blizzard hardly has a monopoly on balance. Any community of reasonable people should be able to create a decently balanced proposal.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:52 PM by Sepplord
Tubby wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:51 PM
I think that the combat thing is better than reducing the range. 1875 is way to short to get a jump on a sorc. 2000 I would understand the change and probably accept it but 1875 way to short and something that has been around for 20 years to cut the range but 20% seems a bit much. I would try the combat approach before this.

How is it too short to get a jump onto sorc? Sorc cannot start casting before that range, so you don,t need to amnesia the sorc before. If a a bard did, they were basically wasting their amnesia because it doesn't interrupt. It stops a cast but target can immediatly cast again

VS sorc you need one amnesia to get from 1850 into your own castrange->start casting yourself->use second amnesia to keep the upper hand

Nothing about THAT particular encounter is changed
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:12 PM by JimD
isavyr remind me who you are ig and when you last did some kind of competitive 8v8s please
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:17 PM by sylvynyr
What about that company called Mythic that worked on balance? But that was such a long time ago...
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:27 PM by Qaewin
The only element that was broken was the ability to pull soloers/small mans out of speed, which, having been on the receiving end umpteen times was, granted, a pain. However, this change is huge - unnecessarily so in my opinion.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:27 PM by Isavyr
Isavyr wrote: Bullshit. Games can be very well balanced without being mirrors. Starcraft (1) is excellent model of this.
JimD wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:12 PM
isavyr remind me who you are ig and when you last did some kind of competitive 8v8s please

Oh I see. Only your opinion matters on all games regarding balance.

Free comedy, thanks Jim. Let me know when you've put an idea of serious consideration down.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:32 PM by Toss
Bard on shelf from now on... This is utterly bullshit to be honest. First nerf Animist and now Bard
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:36 PM by JimD
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:27 PM
Isavyr wrote: Bullshit. Games can be very well balanced without being mirrors. Starcraft (1) is excellent model of this.
JimD wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:12 PM
isavyr remind me who you are ig and when you last did some kind of competitive 8v8s please

Oh I see. Only your opinion matters on all games regarding balance.

Free comedy, thanks Jim. Let me know when you've put an idea of serious consideration down.
you telling me how something should be in daoc is like me telling Cristiano Ronaldo how to take a free kick
Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:14 PM by keen
Good change, small men will be much more fun to play.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:53 PM by Isavyr
JimD wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:36 PM
you telling me how something should be in daoc is like me telling Cristiano Ronaldo how to take a free kick

I'm telling you that other games have succeeded in balancing without perfect mirrors. For your supposedly amazing daoc abilities, it's really hard to believe you cannot read a few lines of text. Still waiting on your suggestion, Mr. Biggus Dickus.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:57 PM by JimD
amnesia doesnt need changing, thats my suggestion
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:15 PM by bigne88
This change is sooo wrong.
Maybe u can fix the speed drop behaving like the sorcerer one...but reducing range....
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:24 PM by Patron
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:49 PM
Plz nerf Hibernia more that nobody want joining this realm -_-, this is rly a reason for me not to playing on this server in the future :-/.

Same here. Its ridicolous how some whiners, which know how daoc works, cry about basemechanics.
This is just stupid! Bad work staff...
Ofc you have the freedom to do what u think is right. But how you ever think this is right? Bard is the very special class, nearly noone play this class and bards are needed in hib.
Bla why i write so much... Staff, im disapointed
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:25 PM by Patron
Asgoran wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:53 PM
healers and sorcs amnesia stays 2300 range?!?! This nerf is silly, how would this not affect fights??
This
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:25 PM by Patron
shin wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:56 PM
from a 8vs8 perspective, quite a massive hit to bards, cant even cancel healers/cleric curing NS now, cause you will have to go deep. idk why you would nerf hib more at this point.

i get that it is annoying for smallmen to get caught by bard amnesia, but then find a different solution, not this one.

This
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:26 PM by Patron
Tubby wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:08 PM
2300 muscle memory range for 20 years...……….. gone. lol
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:29 PM by Patron
Toss wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:32 PM
Bard on shelf from now on... This is utterly bullshit to be honest. First nerf Animist and now Bard

Disapointing staff... Weak performance... Hib nerfed again
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:35 PM by chewchew
JimD wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:36 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:27 PM
Isavyr wrote: Bullshit. Games can be very well balanced without being mirrors. Starcraft (1) is excellent model of this.


Oh I see. Only your opinion matters on all games regarding balance.

Free comedy, thanks Jim. Let me know when you've put an idea of serious consideration down.
you telling me how something should be in daoc is like me telling Cristiano Ronaldo how to take a free kick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qEDfvkJozg
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:51 PM by gromet12
Patron wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:25 PM
Asgoran wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:53 PM
healers and sorcs amnesia stays 2300 range?!?! This nerf is silly, how would this not affect fights??
This

Don’t even act like the insta 2300 range on a casted 2sec is the same as the insta 2300. The problem is the cheese involved in getting small mans into a fight because of the insta, it annoyed me so much I made a duo champ/bard just to cheese everyone as well. It's the issue, keep the range imho but make it castable like the other realms. But wait...you don't want that version do you?
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:53 PM by tomhardly
Isn't the aoe bard amnesia nearly instant or is it instant? I've never seen it interrupted and it cancels all casting unless the bard is somehow CC'd?
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:58 PM by sylvynyr
tomhardly wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:53 PM
Isn't the aoe bard amnesia nearly instant or is it instant? I've never seen it interrupted and it cancels all casting unless the bard is somehow CC'd?

Bard single and aoe Amnesia are both instant and the only versions they get; no casted option.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:07 PM by Voso
I don't understand the issue here? Are mids still having trouble holding W and closing the gap on hib caster groups even after your horrendous HP boost so we need to nerf speed break? Please explain why you continue to favor one realm.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:13 PM by Isavyr
Voso wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:07 PM
I don't understand the issue here? Are mids still having trouble holding W and closing the gap on hib caster groups even after your horrendous HP boost so we need to nerf speed break?

gruenesshaf wrote: The goal is to not really affect the bard gameplay in actual fights but just to make the ability for hib to force fights closer to the other realms

It has nothing to do with combat, but intercepting groups that aren't trying to fight. Everyone else has 1500 range. Hibernia has 2300 range. The problem is that Hibernia's amnesia, while used to fight other groups, is a critically important ability used to fight effectively too. Nerfing it will likely significantly weaken Hibernia. It's hard to nerf one aspect of the bard's amnesia while preserving the other. I hoped there would be more ideas put forward but everyone seems to think it's set in stone.

It's not set in stone (yet). Use this opportunity for discussion.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:15 PM by sylvynyr
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:13 PM
It has nothing to do with combat, but intercepting groups that aren't trying to fight.

Uh... what game do you think this is?

Should they remove all Stealth while they're at it?
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:22 PM by Isavyr
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:15 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:13 PM
It has nothing to do with combat, but intercepting groups that aren't trying to fight.

Uh... what game do you think this is?

Should they remove all Stealth while they're at it?

I was expanding on what gruenes said. And if you're asking me, yes, I would remove all stealthers.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:41 PM by Thisisfubar99
I can't say i don't enjoy seeing Hibs QQ because they won't be able to run after smallmans / solo and chase for a minute or two for free rps. Now i would have been fine with them just removing the speed cutting component instead but i'm sure there would have been just as much whine there aswell.

Maybe the hibs on this server havn't played on the other realms (for awhile) you might wanna try it out see how you like knowing you have 0 chance of escape as soon as an hib group who outnumbers you gets into clipping range, gets pretty fucking tiring after awhile.

Overall : Good change, if i'm gonna try and stay reasonable and if this nerfs bards in fights then by all means, remove the speedcut component instead, would be my suggestion.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 11:02 PM by Alle
No
Wed 25 Mar 2020 11:53 PM by tyrantanic
Having played a Bard for over a decade, I will say that having 2300 range instant amnesia is a crutch. I'd be completely fine with 2000 or 1875 range as that still allows me to prevent Sorcs from winning a mez or support from healing / curing their realm mates. Most Bards I've ran into use instant amnesia to break speed rather than for interrupts allowing themselves to be CC'd without much effort. I'm honestly surprised 2300 instant amnesia wasn't nerfed in range when this server opened. If other Bard players really want compensation for the reduced range, then give them a 2nd instant DD like Skalds and Minstrels. Trust me, you'll hate me more with an extra interrupt than the current 2300 range instant amnesia.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 12:38 AM by whoelse
I disagree with this change, the logic of chasing down solos does not make sense.

there's also no compensation or equal nerf to other amnesia users. amnesia is a key spell to deal with nearsight and creates a power imbalance.

hib already feels like the weakest realm of the 8v8.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:31 AM by Caemma
whoelse wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 12:38 AM
there's also no compensation or equal nerf to other amnesia users. amnesia is a key spell to deal with nearsight and creates a power imbalance.

That is a solid argument, that I've honestly forgot.
Good catch.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 7:36 AM by Forlornhope
tyrantanic wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 11:53 PM
Having played a Bard for over a decade, I will say that having 2300 range instant amnesia is a crutch. I'd be completely fine with 2000 or 1875 range as that still allows me to prevent Sorcs from winning a mez or support from healing / curing their realm mates. Most Bards I've ran into use instant amnesia to break speed rather than for interrupts allowing themselves to be CC'd without much effort. I'm honestly surprised 2300 instant amnesia wasn't nerfed in range when this server opened. If other Bard players really want compensation for the reduced range, then give them a 2nd instant DD like Skalds and Minstrels. Trust me, you'll hate me more with an extra interrupt than the current 2300 range instant amnesia.

Thank you for actually being unbiased <3
Thu 26 Mar 2020 7:49 AM by Leandrys
Pretty bad change, to be honnest.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:42 AM by Gildar
Patron wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:25 PM
Asgoran wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:53 PM
healers and sorcs amnesia stays 2300 range?!?! This nerf is silly, how would this not affect fights??
This

This !

Really a bad idea ... imho.

What is the reason for an so great change of all Hib style of play ? Nerfing bard is like killing one already underplayed class .... look at the stats pls
Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:57 AM by Centenario
Make them Combat only spell (can't use them if not engaged in combat).
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:11 AM by Patron
Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:57 AM
Make them Combat only spell (can't use them if not engaged in combat).

This is not doable Centenario.
What does Amnesia in Combat? Amnesia countering spells, right?
When Group A (Hib) inc Group B (Mid or Alb) and group A Bard use Amnesia to counter the mezz-spell of the healer or sorc, the bard amnesia not working, because its no combat flag, till the mezz is casted. Can you follow me?

And who need, in your idea, the combatflag? The Bard or his target?

I think your idea is totally unpracticable.
And because Amnesia countering spells, and every Speed5 is a spell, Amnesia countering Speedspells.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:13 AM by Patron
I cast a "Cure Hybris" spell on the Phoenixstaff.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:26 AM by Centenario
I agree to leave it as can influence players.
I am okay with keeping the range at 2300.
Just make it not rupt if you are not in combat, so its not unfair advantage to other mezzer classes.

If you want to keep the rupt then make it a 1500-1700 range or give it a 2second cast time.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:32 AM by Patron
Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:26 AM
Just make it not rupt if you are not in combat, so its not unfair advantage to other mezzer classes.
You dont get my point i guess.
The first mezz is not counterable. Thats the logic consequence, when Amnesia only work when Mezz is casted and the target is flagged as combat.

Sorc have quickcast to not get countered with first mezz, so sorc is king of mezz. All Mezzes in the realms are same distance, but sorc cannot countered.
Healer have ae stun and chainarmor.
Bard have... yeah...

Im tired, i hope you get my point now. If not, you´re just... special
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:46 AM by Centenario
Patron wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:32 AM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:26 AM
Just make it not rupt if you are not in combat, so its not unfair advantage to other mezzer classes.
You dont get my point i guess.
The first mezz is not counterable. Thats the logic consequence, when Amnesia only work when Mezz is casted and the target is flagged as combat.

Sorc have quickcast to not get countered with first mezz, so sorc is king of mezz. All Mezzes in the realms are same distance, but sorc cannot countered.
Healer have ae stun and chainarmor.
Bard have... yeah...

Im tired, i hope you get my point now. If not, you´re just... special

My intention is to get first mezz not counterable, meaning the first one to cast it will land it.
Your point is: No bard should always be able to land its mezzes even with 500ms latency
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:55 AM by Patron
Ok you telling nonsense and stand by it. I respect that.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 10:00 AM by Cadebrennus
Patron wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:32 AM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:26 AM
Just make it not rupt if you are not in combat, so its not unfair advantage to other mezzer classes.
You dont get my point i guess.
The first mezz is not counterable. Thats the logic consequence, when Amnesia only work when Mezz is casted and the target is flagged as combat.

Sorc have quickcast to not get countered with first mezz, so sorc is king of mezz. All Mezzes in the realms are same distance, but sorc cannot countered.
Healer have ae stun and chainarmor.
Bard have... yeah...

Im tired, i hope you get my point now. If not, you´re just... special

They should put Bards in scale and Minstrels in leather.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 10:22 AM by canzian
Can u stop nerf hib?
Thu 26 Mar 2020 10:25 AM by Mordenaar
If you nerf the bards amnesia, then please consider giving warden demezz. The hib tank train isn't competing against Alb caster or Mid hybrids because the dps is lacking since they need to drop a dps for 2nd bard (demezz).

This would definitely even things out a bit.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 1:03 PM by Drughen
Hmm the low number of HIB groups in GVG will be even lower if you do this change without giving the bards something else? And the range need to be nerfed on other amnesia as well + shoulöd be 2000 range. This will affect the gameplay alot since if you often are the only demezzer in the group you cant do anything since you will be mezzed/be in the face of tanks if you go in and try to interupt with the amnesia.

Nerf the worst realm in 8v8 isnt the way to go and the Minstrel change is actually a better for the minstrel depending on how demezz thing will work out.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 1:19 PM by Sei
I understand that it s cancer especially for solo small being zerged by hib group, but have to give hib a compensation (sorc Shield on bard for instance) and maybe Just make amnesia not breaking speed under a certain range ?

In addition to that it s seems rather aknowledged by the community that hib is hard mode realm novadays
Thu 26 Mar 2020 1:20 PM by Razur Ur
Nerf amnesia but give bard Mesmerize Duration Buff, i cannot understand why got a sorc this fuck ability? Albion have two demezzer + quick cast mezz ae range 1875
is good like under the mezz chars! what have hib? only bard and menta as second demezzer! alone this is a joke and now you want nerf again the OP Bard ^_^.
I ask me, have anytime the staff played a bard in rvr?
Thu 26 Mar 2020 1:22 PM by Drughen
gromet12 wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:51 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:25 PM
Asgoran wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:53 PM
healers and sorcs amnesia stays 2300 range?!?! This nerf is silly, how would this not affect fights??
This

Don’t even act like the insta 2300 range on a casted 2sec is the same as the insta 2300. The problem is the cheese involved in getting small mans into a fight because of the insta, it annoyed me so much I made a duo champ/bard just to cheese everyone as well. It's the issue, keep the range imho but make it castable like the other realms. But wait...you don't want that version do you?

Impossible to win mezz for bard if its castable. sorc 1850 range mezz with quick cast...... healers 4 instas compared to 2. if you take away the quickcast from all casters and the sorc mezz range make healer lose stun and so on then its fair. If Hib are the most underpowered realm in 8v8 and you take away what some ppl think its the most overpowered thing in that realm what will happen to HIB then? double underpowered but maybe double negative is positive
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:06 PM by bigne88
Hib is already unplayable.
Dont do this stupid amnesia custom fix. Just fix the shrooms casting behind walls.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:12 PM by Expfighter
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:06 PM
Hib is already unplayable.
Dont do this stupid amnesia custom fix. Just fix the shrooms casting behind walls.

unplayable? WTF are you smoking? Hib EVERYDAY forms 100+ PILZ/HERO zergs and destroys EVERYONE! 4 relics ring a bell? Scaith and Ailline are untakeable right now because Hib is SOOOOOOO unplayable!

Bard amnesia is STUPID in it's current form! speed 6 class with speed breaking Amnesia! try playing on the other side of this STUPID GARBAGE and you will see the Stupidity of it!

oh yea healers and Sorcs are NOT speed 6 classes! Argument OVER!
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:19 PM by Caemma
Expfighter wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:12 PM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:06 PM
Hib is already unplayable.
Dont do this stupid amnesia custom fix. Just fix the shrooms casting behind walls.

unplayable? WTF are you smoking? Hib EVERYDAY forms 100+ PILZ/HERO zergs and destroys EVERYONE! 4 relics ring a bell? Scaith and Ailline are untakeable right now because Hib is SOOOOOOO unplayable!

Bard amnesia is STUPID in it's current form! speed 6 class with speed breaking Amnesia! try playing on the other side of this STUPID GARBAGE and you will see the Stupidity of it!

oh yea healers and Sorcs are NOT speed 6 classes! Argument OVER!
What the actual frack zergs and pilzpower bgs has to do with a single class change?
Bards amnesia is what make hibs so great in zergs?
And moreover a spell that most of zergers doesn't even properly use?
And even moreover a less efficent spell for zerg battles compared to the Mid/Alb counterparts (they can spam it on a zerg ball, bards can't)?

Can you please keep your nonsense outside a serious discussion?
Thanks, truly.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:26 PM by Uthred
Pls stop the insults and stay on topic. If you have something reasonable to say, feel free to do so. If not, dont post any comments in here. Thank you.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:40 PM by Azrael
I use amnesia to break speed for the fight. My fear is, even if I am not a keyboardtuner I get the counter insta stun (healer) or flute mezz before I can turn and keep the extra 375 units distance if both parties engage with speed 6.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:58 PM by Nauglamir
So, the reason for this change is that bards, as the inferior primary mezzer compared to sorc and healer, are great at catching up to solos/smaller groupsizes, if they want to? And you don't want them to be? Because...why not, exactly? Don't fully understand why you want this to change
Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:24 PM by Isavyr
Expfighter wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:12 PM
unplayable? WTF are you smoking? Hib EVERYDAY forms 100+ PILZ/HERO zergs and destroys EVERYONE! 4 relics ring a bell? Scaith and Ailline are untakeable right now because Hib is SOOOOOOO unplayable!

Bard amnesia is STUPID in it's current form! speed 6 class with speed breaking Amnesia! try playing on the other side of this STUPID GARBAGE and you will see the Stupidity of it!

I play on both sides of it. Is it lame? Yeah. But it's not entirely avoidable. And I think nerfing it is worse than leaving it alone.

I think if a change is to go through, it needs to be more precise; 2300 range, breaks speed unless target is >1875 range, back-facing, out-of-combat. This would largely resolve both issues.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:29 PM by Patron
Nauglamir wrote: So, the reason for this change is that bards, as the inferior primary mezzer compared to sorc and healer, are great at catching up to solos/smaller groupsizes, if they want to? And you don't want them to be? Because...why not, exactly? Don't fully understand why you want this to change

Because some forumdweller want to bring staff to nerf bard since day 2...

Isavyr wrote: I play on both sides of it. Is it lame? Yeah. But it's not entirely avoidable. And I think nerfing it is worse than leaving it alone.

I think if a change is to go through, it needs to be more precise; 2300 range, breaks speed unless target is >1875 range, back-facing, out-of-combat. This would largely resolve both issues.

I guess this could work.
Additional Point is, Amnesia break every cast. So not only Speed, but NS / Mezz / Root
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:27 PM by Necas
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:49 PM
Plz nerf Hibernia more that nobody want joining this realm -_-, this is rly a reason for me not to playing on this server in the future :-/.

Same opinion!
My main character is Bard - if you nerf my amnesia and does not give a plus like root (bard is worst CC char in game), i will stop playing on this server, and i can tell u, a lot of people will do.

It starts like on live server: a lot of shitty changes, people leave, game dies.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 7:02 PM by Durzo
Great change, hibs being able to force fights due to amnesia felt pretty awful. If it was instant it wouldn’t be a problem, or if it didn’t have the range it did it wouldn’t be a problem. But to have a group behind you knowing full well you can’t get away. Feels bad.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:01 PM by Siouxsie
Bravo. This change is LONG overdue (18 years overdue, actually)
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:16 PM by bigne88
Expfighter wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:12 PM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:06 PM
Hib is already unplayable.
Dont do this stupid amnesia custom fix. Just fix the shrooms casting behind walls.

unplayable? WTF are you smoking? Hib EVERYDAY forms 100+ PILZ/HERO zergs and destroys EVERYONE! 4 relics ring a bell? Scaith and Ailline are untakeable right now because Hib is SOOOOOOO unplayable!

Bard amnesia is STUPID in it's current form! speed 6 class with speed breaking Amnesia! try playing on the other side of this STUPID GARBAGE and you will see the Stupidity of it!

oh yea healers and Sorcs are NOT speed 6 classes! Argument OVER!

Who cares about zerg?
I play on all 3 realms dude.
Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:14 AM by Toss
Tired of the constant bash on Hibs when there are clearly bigger problems. Like Gtaoe and Pets thru walls bu this is what gets focus??
The game is Rock paper scissors. Deal with it. Yes Bards are excellent speed breakers. But some week ago a Healer was standing SPAMMING Amnesia in a keep fight so noone could cast........ basicly. Bards cant do that.

Sick of the constant bashing on Hibs so not even gonna play until Devs get their act right.

Also theese new Tasks. Great idea. But why move it away from the Keep areas? Just look at LIVE. The more spread out the action is, the more dead the zones become.
Add a 3rd PVP Event and i assure you we will have a "dead" game this summer.... Few doing EV Tasks... Few doing 8v8 Action.... Few doing Duel or 3v3 Events.... Few doing keeps... Few raiding..... Few exping.

Imo the Domination stuff worked great in Old frontiers. Just bring that stuff back and we good
Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:27 AM by Hodge
I like to see a castable amnesia at 2300 like other realms, and an insta at 700 or 1000.
Fri 27 Mar 2020 8:50 AM by Patron
"like other realms"
Some player and maybe staffmember dont understand the concept of DAoC.
End of Story...
Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:43 PM by MiNDmaZing
Reduce Range to 2000 or 1850
Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:51 PM by Patron
yeah, while all other amnesia´s stay on 2300 and are spammable!
Sorc Mezzrange ? 1875 with quickcast (not counterable), And sorc have the funny Mezzduration buff, no other class have
Bard Mezzrange? 1500 (no quickcast)

Yeah this seems fair
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:48 PM by gruenesschaf
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 8:50 AM
"like other realms"
Some player and maybe staffmember dont understand the concept of DAoC.
End of Story...

Some players think asymetric balancing means things like the initial warlock existing which are perfectly countered by the initial no los check banshee pulses because each realm having stupid abilities is balance.
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:51 PM by mocozi
joy wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:52 PM
This is a massive hit to a bards gameplay.

He will now have to put himself a lot closer to 'danger'.

If this goes through, can we have a higher level of the single Amnesia, so it doesn't resist so much?

It's even better when it resists as that will interrupt the cast.

But yea, no idea why this 2300 range is nerfed. It is working as intended, like good dev's love to say about things that are op. But hey, what do I know? As soon as new live classic + si comes out, i'll be out of this server.
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:55 PM by MiNDmaZing
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:51 PM
yeah, while all other amnesia´s stay on 2300 and are spammable!
Sorc Mezzrange ? 1875 with quickcast (not counterable), And sorc have the funny Mezzduration buff, no other class have
Bard Mezzrange? 1500 (no quickcast)

Yeah this seems fair

Give him a castable amnesia spell too. How can i counter speedbreak from amnesia when i get chased by a fg as a smalmann / solo ?
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:57 PM by Patron
I dont discuss with persons which destroy the best freeshard since 14 years.
Certainly not with arguments taken out of thin air about Warlocks or Banshes.
The goal is to not really affect the bard gameplay in actual fights but just to make the ability for hib to force fights closer to the other realms.
ridiculousR
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:58 PM by mocozi
MiNDmaZing wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:55 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:51 PM
yeah, while all other amnesia´s stay on 2300 and are spammable!
Sorc Mezzrange ? 1875 with quickcast (not counterable), And sorc have the funny Mezzduration buff, no other class have
Bard Mezzrange? 1500 (no quickcast)

Yeah this seems fair

Give him a castable amnesia spell too. How can i counter speedbreak from amnesia when i get chased by a fg as a smalmann / solo ?

Why do you always have to get away? If you are caught, it's natural that you will die. Dying/killing is the most natural thing in this game. Or let's give everyone Vanish as well?
Fri 27 Mar 2020 2:10 PM by sylvynyr
MiNDmaZing wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:55 PM
Give him a castable amnesia spell too. How can i counter speedbreak from amnesia when i get chased by a fg as a smalmann / solo ?

You're running around in an RvR zone....
Fri 27 Mar 2020 2:28 PM by Caemma
If the whole reason behind this change is to avoid smaller groups to get caught, then there are other (better) way around:

Separate/Add tasks that are size-related in different places, thus:
- Smallman tasks only (1 to 5)
- Groups tasks only (6 to 9)
- Keep the current realm task (Anyone)

This would attract smallman action somewhere away from FG tasks and realm/zerg ones.
This way you don't force anybody to do something specific, but rather give them more reason to do what suits their group/playstyle.

Any other reason beside the one above, to me, it's quite a stretch - cause there are draw backs on having it instant which should balance it with the other amnesias (and the ideal setup compositions).
Fri 27 Mar 2020 3:25 PM by Toss
MiNDmaZing wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:55 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:51 PM
yeah, while all other amnesia´s stay on 2300 and are spammable!
Sorc Mezzrange ? 1875 with quickcast (not counterable), And sorc have the funny Mezzduration buff, no other class have
Bard Mezzrange? 1500 (no quickcast)

Yeah this seems fair

Give him a castable amnesia spell too. How can i counter speedbreak from amnesia when i get chased by a fg as a smalmann / solo ?

How can i counter being backstabbed by 2 stealthers when i try to solo? Equally stupid statement tbh
Sat 28 Mar 2020 9:07 AM by facekidd
its a great idea the worst thing out there for small mans are full groups of hibs catching them easily with silly ranged amnesia.

Hib is such cheesy easy mode. A drop in there power to dominate as such is most welcolme
Sat 28 Mar 2020 11:24 AM by Patron
Scared to die in rvr son?
And which tools solos and duo have to avoid your smallmengroup?
Sat 28 Mar 2020 5:17 PM by yanabulgaria1
I don't think bards needs this nerf It's a great way to stop groups on their tracks. Bards don't have good killing abilities like minis or skalds, but we have this.
Sat 28 Mar 2020 5:24 PM by yanabulgaria1
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 7:36 AM
tyrantanic wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 11:53 PM
Having played a Bard for over a decade, I will say that having 2300 range instant amnesia is a crutch. I'd be completely fine with 2000 or 1875 range as that still allows me to prevent Sorcs from winning a mez or support from healing / curing their realm mates. Most Bards I've ran into use instant amnesia to break speed rather than for interrupts allowing themselves to be CC'd without much effort. I'm honestly surprised 2300 instant amnesia wasn't nerfed in range when this server opened. If other Bard players really want compensation for the reduced range, then give them a 2nd instant DD like Skalds and Minstrels. Trust me, you'll hate me more with an extra interrupt than the current 2300 range instant amnesia.

Thank you for actually being unbiased <3
You know, this is not a bad idea! Bards are somewhat lacking compared to minis and skads! I would completely support this.
Sun 29 Mar 2020 12:17 AM by Cadebrennus
yanabulgaria1 wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 5:24 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 7:36 AM
tyrantanic wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 11:53 PM
Having played a Bard for over a decade, I will say that having 2300 range instant amnesia is a crutch. I'd be completely fine with 2000 or 1875 range as that still allows me to prevent Sorcs from winning a mez or support from healing / curing their realm mates. Most Bards I've ran into use instant amnesia to break speed rather than for interrupts allowing themselves to be CC'd without much effort. I'm honestly surprised 2300 instant amnesia wasn't nerfed in range when this server opened. If other Bard players really want compensation for the reduced range, then give them a 2nd instant DD like Skalds and Minstrels. Trust me, you'll hate me more with an extra interrupt than the current 2300 range instant amnesia.

Thank you for actually being unbiased <3
You know, this is not a bad idea! Bards are somewhat lacking compared to minis and skads! I would completely support this.

Give them scale armor and climb walls too. I'm serious.
Sun 29 Mar 2020 12:39 AM by Hodge
Hey, give them CD 😊. It would be like fighting with two pool noodles instead of one. J/k

When compared to sorc, the sorc does not have insta mez like bard or healer. So my suggestion still allows the insta range that is comparable to any other class in the game. At most an insta is 1500.
Sun 29 Mar 2020 2:13 PM by Azrael
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Mar 2020 12:17 AM
Give them scale armor and climb walls too. I'm serious.

Would take this, and

Hodge wrote: Hey, give them CD 😊. It would be like fighting with two pool noodles instead of one. J/k

and this. Delicious side stun beside the side snare and it would really look badass.
Sun 29 Mar 2020 2:29 PM by bigne88
Just make bard anbesia breaking speed as sorcerer one, if you really have to change anything. Leave as ot is even better. Dont make thia server a custom shitshow.
Sun 29 Mar 2020 3:13 PM by Mainevent
Go on and nerf it thats fine but give me my mez reduction give me a 2nd dd and my root like live then this change I'd more than gladly do that trade because as of now the bard has 2 defenses mez and side weapon snare which drops my speed and endo for the group ...meanwhile sorcs have a pet skalds have a back positional snare and 2 dd's and mini has after anytime what like 29 second snare and 2 dd's plus a red pet yeah
Sun 29 Mar 2020 5:03 PM by Neso
1875 range or 2000 with a 10/15 sec recast timer
Sun 29 Mar 2020 5:20 PM by bigne88
facekidd wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 9:07 AM
its a great idea the worst thing out there for small mans are full groups of hibs catching them easily with silly ranged amnesia.

Hib is such cheesy easy mode. A drop in there power to dominate as such is most welcolme

Boo hooo.
Small men dying to a fg. Boo hooo, how they dare killin you?

Do you let all soloers and smaller small men alive as well?
Sun 29 Mar 2020 7:11 PM by gotwqqd
Some of these class comparisons are inane
Sun 29 Mar 2020 8:01 PM by Enyore
Lets give this change a try...... i'm skeptical but i think it will do some good things too.

This is going to suck in the group v group play, where as for zerg play it will not matter at all.

There is however a general problem with hib groups running down small man groups and you cant do anything unless you see them half a zone away, eventually they will get you. Think this will be a change sent from heaven for many in the small man community.
Sun 29 Mar 2020 8:03 PM by sylvynyr
Enyore wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Mar 2020 8:01 PM
Think this will be a change sent from heaven for many in the small man community.

Why should balance decisions be made around small man play?
Sun 29 Mar 2020 8:09 PM by Enyore
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Mar 2020 8:03 PM
Enyore wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Mar 2020 8:01 PM
Think this will be a change sent from heaven for many in the small man community.

Why should balance decisions be made around small man play?

It shouldn't solely be made for that reason.... just as it shouldn't solely be made for gvg play.... just as it shouldn't solely be made for zerg play.

I am myself skeptical to this change, but i am also generally conservative when it comes to deviating too much from the original path. However it is a minor change that could have a huge impact, but its something that can be tried out at least. Its not the end of the world like the crit chance and style changes.
Sun 29 Mar 2020 8:40 PM by Drughen
Necas wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:27 PM
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:49 PM
Plz nerf Hibernia more that nobody want joining this realm -_-, this is rly a reason for me not to playing on this server in the future :-/.

Same opinion!
My main character is Bard - if you nerf my amnesia and does not give a plus like root (bard is worst CC char in game), i will stop playing on this server, and i can tell u, a lot of people will do.

It starts like on live server: a lot of shitty changes, people leave, game dies.

I feel the same will put my bard on the shelf, will be very hard to play hib caster group in the future due to the lack of speed brake possible for mid tanker groups. thats the only way to manage to stop them from just steamrolling you if its 1850 range with 2 speed 6 the healer will probably be able to come close enough to insta stun the bard and youre dead the speed brake isnt instant either it takes like 5 seconds. Same for alb caster with greater range you need to be able to speed brake them to have a chance against them, often body train win anyway since its op but then you have a chance at least.
Sun 29 Mar 2020 9:24 PM by Riac
this whole thread is a bunch of bards crying about finally getting what they deserve. amnesia w/ that range was op and always has been. bard is still a very good class and you are crazy if you dont agree. you think a healer is better or easier to play, then go roll one and wait till you see the specs you are pigeon-holed into.
Sun 29 Mar 2020 10:21 PM by Asgoran
My memory is not great but correct me if I'm wrong. This is the first bard nerf...ever? Every bard change I can think of in daoc history has been a BUFF. Bards do not need to be nerfed. Pretty clear imo
Sun 29 Mar 2020 11:14 PM by sylvynyr
Enyore wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Mar 2020 8:09 PM
It shouldn't solely be made for that reason.... just as it shouldn't solely be made for gvg play.... just as it shouldn't solely be made for zerg play.

Pretty sure, but could be wrong, that most official balance was based around level 50 GvG within the schema of RvR. There's a reason group size was set to 8; Battlegroups weren't implemented until patch 1.66 when TOA was introduced. If/When you start considering undersized groups for balance, do you also start considering 1v1? 2v2? Where does it end?
Sun 29 Mar 2020 11:53 PM by Fk_
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:57 PM
I dont discuss with persons which destroy the best freeshard since 14 years.
Certainly not with arguments taken out of thin air about Warlocks or Banshes.
The goal is to not really affect the bard gameplay in actual fights but just to make the ability for hib to force fights closer to the other realms.
ridiculousR

You realise he is one of the main devs of phoenix? lul
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:26 AM by yanabulgaria1
Would it be a bad idea to make amnesia the same spell distance as other casters, but give bards more offensive abilities like skalds and minis use?

Just a thought guys!
Mon 30 Mar 2020 5:03 AM by Nauglamir
yanabulgaria1 wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:26 AM
Would it be a bad idea to make amnesia the same spell distance as other casters, but give bards more offensive abilities like skalds and minis use?

Just a thought guys!

They can just specc weapon and have more offensive ability.
Mon 30 Mar 2020 6:24 AM by Patron
Fk_ wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Mar 2020 11:53 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:57 PM
I dont discuss with persons which destroy the best freeshard since 14 years.
Certainly not with arguments taken out of thin air about Warlocks or Banshes.
The goal is to not really affect the bard gameplay in actual fights but just to make the ability for hib to force fights closer to the other realms.
ridiculousR

You realise he is one of the main devs of phoenix? lul
Yes, ofc i know
Do you ever heared from a guy called Blue?
The staff need honest feedback and my feedback is written so the story is done
Mon 30 Mar 2020 8:18 AM by Jib
People complain about Bard amnesia because it is instant and not because of its range.

The solo minstrel or Skald or small group gets run over by the 8 man hib group because they can catch them do to amnesia being instant in hib. The complaints have no basis in 8 v 8 as every other realm has castable amnesia of the same range with no reuse timer a much more powerful spell in group or zerg play than bard amnesia.

All these changes you are making to minstrels and bards as well as the rest you have done seem to be knee jerk reactions to the bad players complaining that they died. They are not for balanced game play and any attempt to justify it that way is obvious.

If you want to balance game play you would get rid of the part of the game where you allow 8 mans to cross realm and encourage them to do so with a bonus system. That hurts every other player on the server, at the expense of the few who think 8 man style is the only playing style that matters.
Mon 30 Mar 2020 2:21 PM by Sepplord
One realm being able to have superior choosing of their fights is not a groupVSsmallmen issue...

And if instant amnesia is the only thing that makes midtankers controllable, i wonder how albion manages (or in general how any groups outside of hib manage against a tankgroup)
Mon 30 Mar 2020 2:33 PM by Kabouik
I'm not sure I understood the alternative with speed broken only when in bolt range. Does that mean the amnesia interrupt would still work at 2300 range? That would be better than just changing the range of the spell to 1850. But to be honest, I see more risks than benefits in changing this spell. I don't even think there are any significant balance benefits to changing it.

Some will disagree and believe Bard's amnesia is a big hit to overall balance of course. Well, I also am shocked that everyone can run with buffs in a game where buffs were originally tied to archetypes and/or specialization lines (support classes, friars, wardens, rangers, hunters) that cost specialization points. There was therefore a trade-off with other lines or other group classes to having buffs. Yet everyone does run with buff pots, which almost suppresses the trade-off and allows spending points elsewhere or grouping non-buff classes instead of promoting diversity in specializations and group metas. It is especially breaking balance in solo and smallman between non-buff and buff classes, but also in larger fights because it alters group compositions. This impairs balance far more than amnesia in my opinion, and it impacts all three realms. So let's face it, we can't all agree, and therefore I'll accept it if devs believe the Bard's amnesia must be changed, but I am not convinced at all.
Mon 30 Mar 2020 5:17 PM by necrolove1
This has to happen, speaking from an alb point of view for example, it is almost impossible to utilize the 1875 bolt range mez ( our advantage) when its negated right off the bat due to a 2300 range spell
Mon 30 Mar 2020 6:59 PM by gotwqqd
Change it so it’s castable anytime
Sort of like archery
So not insta 2 second cast where you can “precast” and hope target comes in range
Mon 30 Mar 2020 11:52 PM by Riac
yanabulgaria1 wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:26 AM
Would it be a bad idea to make amnesia the same spell distance as other casters, but give bards more offensive abilities like skalds and minis use?

Just a thought guys!

o you mean like the side style snares they get to use since everyone has endo pots?
Tue 31 Mar 2020 12:48 AM by Kabouik
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 5:17 PM
This has to happen, speaking from an alb point of view for example, it is almost impossible to utilize the 1875 bolt range mez ( our advantage) when its negated right off the bat due to a 2300 range spell

The other advantage is that the main AEMezz can be combined with quickcast on Albion. Amnesia doesn't trigger the interrupt timer unless resisted if I'm not mistaken, so there is time to cast the mezz during the Amnesia cooldown. While Amnesia is easier to land with a Bard because it's instant, it cannot be spammed as on other realms to suppress a caster, and I think we all appreciate that spells are not 100% mirrored across realms.


Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 11:52 PM
yanabulgaria1 wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:26 AM
Would it be a bad idea to make amnesia the same spell distance as other casters, but give bards more offensive abilities like skalds and minis use?

Just a thought guys!

o you mean like the side style snares they get to use since everyone has endo pots?
Ah, exactly the kind of balance-breaking side effects of potions I was referring to in my previous post, the impacts span from solo to groups.
Tue 31 Mar 2020 1:15 AM by Riac
is bard insta mezz the same range as healers? if so, im really not seeing the problem. bard is still an amazing class. a main CCer that buffs/heals/ and rupts.... whats the problem?
Tue 31 Mar 2020 7:01 PM by Lipsi
Patron wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:25 PM
Asgoran wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:53 PM
healers and sorcs amnesia stays 2300 range?!?! This nerf is silly, how would this not affect fights??
This

This. Keep all amnesias at the same range, not just reduce one. Either all or none
Sat 4 Apr 2020 4:37 PM by Siouxsie
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Mar 2020 5:20 PM
facekidd wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 9:07 AM
its a great idea the worst thing out there for small mans are full groups of hibs catching them easily with silly ranged amnesia.

Hib is such cheesy easy mode. A drop in there power to dominate as such is most welcolme

Boo hooo.
Small men dying to a fg. Boo hooo, how they dare killin you?

Do you let all soloers and smaller small men alive as well?

Funny coming from someone who runs two overpowered speed classes you can't counter.
Sat 4 Apr 2020 10:03 PM by Tritri
Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 11:52 PM
yanabulgaria1 wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:26 AM
Would it be a bad idea to make amnesia the same spell distance as other casters, but give bards more offensive abilities like skalds and minis use?

Just a thought guys!

o you mean like the side style snares they get to use since everyone has endo pots?

I don't see how not having pots would prevent bards from using their peel lol
Sun 5 Apr 2020 1:36 AM by daytonchambers
Tritri wrote: ↑
Sat 4 Apr 2020 10:03 PM
I don't see how not having pots would prevent bards from using their peel lol


Because with everyone in group having endo3 via pots the bard can drop instrument and peel instead of being an endo battery
Sun 5 Apr 2020 2:41 AM by Riac
Tritri wrote: ↑
Sat 4 Apr 2020 10:03 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 11:52 PM
yanabulgaria1 wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:26 AM
Would it be a bad idea to make amnesia the same spell distance as other casters, but give bards more offensive abilities like skalds and minis use?

Just a thought guys!

o you mean like the side style snares they get to use since everyone has endo pots?

I don't see how not having pots would prevent bards from using their peel lol

lol not a bard player obviously
Sun 5 Apr 2020 2:26 PM by Tritri
Riac wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 2:41 AM
Tritri wrote: ↑
Sat 4 Apr 2020 10:03 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 11:52 PM
o you mean like the side style snares they get to use since everyone has endo pots?

I don't see how not having pots would prevent bards from using their peel lol

lol not a bard player obviously

Sorry to say but I was a Bard player, and I see no problem in peeling and switching back to endo song lol

And even with end 3, tanks needs end song
Mon 6 Apr 2020 10:24 AM by chewchew
while i see a reason for this change looking at small-man-action i fear that this change would hurt hib caster grps which are already in a bad spot right now.
it will hurt the speed-breaking and ns-control which both are important points for a hib caster group.
so when lowering the range it should still be 2000+ imho.
the nf map is already better than of for small-man-grps to avoid getting caught. there should still be some skill and attention be involved for these small-man-grps to avoid unfavourable incs.
Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:22 PM by Sepplord
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 5:17 PM
This has to happen, speaking from an alb point of view for example, it is almost impossible to utilize the 1875 bolt range mez ( our advantage) when its negated right off the bat due to a 2300 range spell

The bard VS sorc interaction doesn't change though...
Using instant-amnesia against a sorc at 2000+range does nothing at all (well unless the sorc is casting on someone else...but i am talking about an albgroup engaging a hibgrp

If a bard uses their amnesia at that range they use it on a sorc that hasn't started casting and unless the amnesia gets resisted it will do absolutely nothing. A Bard would always try to use amnesia when the sorc is already casting, so under 1850range, to get into 1500 or less range. Then the bard starts casting and uses his second amnesia to stop the sorc from getting it's second cast through
Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:25 PM by bigne88
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:22 PM
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 5:17 PM
This has to happen, speaking from an alb point of view for example, it is almost impossible to utilize the 1875 bolt range mez ( our advantage) when its negated right off the bat due to a 2300 range spell

The bard VS sorc interaction doesn't change though...
Using instant-amnesia against a sorc at 2000+range does nothing at all (well unless the sorc is casting on someone else...but i am talking about an albgroup engaging a hibgrp

If a bard uses their amnesia at that range they use it on a sorc that hasn't started casting and unless the amnesia gets resisted it will do absolutely nothing. A Bard would always try to use amnesia when the sorc is already casting, so under 1850range, to get into 1500 or less range. Then the bard starts casting and uses his second amnesia to stop the sorc from getting it's second cast through

Bard insta mezz is way more reliable to shut down a casting sorc, especially if you are pushing two mind sorcs. You never know if the sorcs are quickcasting, one of the two is using amnesia on you, or if you two amnesia are gonna resisting or not.
Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:29 PM by Sepplord
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:25 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:22 PM
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 5:17 PM
This has to happen, speaking from an alb point of view for example, it is almost impossible to utilize the 1875 bolt range mez ( our advantage) when its negated right off the bat due to a 2300 range spell

The bard VS sorc interaction doesn't change though...
Using instant-amnesia against a sorc at 2000+range does nothing at all (well unless the sorc is casting on someone else...but i am talking about an albgroup engaging a hibgrp

If a bard uses their amnesia at that range they use it on a sorc that hasn't started casting and unless the amnesia gets resisted it will do absolutely nothing. A Bard would always try to use amnesia when the sorc is already casting, so under 1850range, to get into 1500 or less range. Then the bard starts casting and uses his second amnesia to stop the sorc from getting it's second cast through

Bard insta mezz is way more reliable to shut down a casting sorc.

yes, but only if you have it offcooldown for every inc. Wouldn't really call that reliable. But this thread is about amnesia, and necrolove commented how this change would make it easier for a sorc to utilize it'S boltrange-mezz
Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:30 PM by bigne88
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:29 PM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:25 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:22 PM
The bard VS sorc interaction doesn't change though...
Using instant-amnesia against a sorc at 2000+range does nothing at all (well unless the sorc is casting on someone else...but i am talking about an albgroup engaging a hibgrp

If a bard uses their amnesia at that range they use it on a sorc that hasn't started casting and unless the amnesia gets resisted it will do absolutely nothing. A Bard would always try to use amnesia when the sorc is already casting, so under 1850range, to get into 1500 or less range. Then the bard starts casting and uses his second amnesia to stop the sorc from getting it's second cast through

Bard insta mezz is way more reliable to shut down a casting sorc.

yes, ofcourse. But this thread is about amnesia, and necrolove commented how this change would make it easier for a sorc to utilize it'S boltrange-mezz

Than you are kinda right.
Amnesia change, which for me is not necessary, its all about breaking speed.
I'd give castable amnesia the same breaking speed effect...but that's just me.
Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:48 PM by Sepplord
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:30 PM
I'd give castable amnesia the same breaking speed effect...but that's just me.

Castable Amnesia has the same speedbreaking effect...

but you can't cast it on the run at max-range THAT's the issue
Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:36 PM by Patron
Not rly a issue if you want different realms with different abilities!
Those who want similiar realms with similiar abilities are the coffin nail from Phoenix.
No matter if staff or player
Mon 6 Apr 2020 10:00 PM by Quik
Patron wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:36 PM
Not rly a issue if you want different realms with different abilities!
Those who want similiar realms with similiar abilities are the coffin nail from Phoenix.
No matter if staff or player

I agree with this but ONLY if all 3 realms are balanced and equal.

When 1 realm gets a significant advantage then something needs to be changed and I would rather have 2 abilities to be the same if that is the only way to balance it.

I am not saying if it is needed here, but just saying that all 3 realms need to be different all the time is very disingenuous and ruins the game more than mirroring does.

No realm should have a glaring advantage over another and if 1 class has an ability that is unique to it and affects RvR a lot, it needs to be looked at. Minstrel free CC is one of those abilities, but I will leave the bard amnesia to be argued by people who know more about it than I do.
Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:07 PM by Patron
What is this glaring advantage? Celerity in Mid, mezz on boltrange in alb or instand amnesia in hib? What about mezz reduction from sorc? Or minst charm, or quadrohits from savage?
Thats all abilities which are unique and yes, in some situations, they are a advantage for sure.

But this is daoc and it was this way forever and it working. Every Day, since 19 years
Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:02 AM by bigne88
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:48 PM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:30 PM
I'd give castable amnesia the same breaking speed effect...but that's just me.

Castable Amnesia has the same speedbreaking effect...

but you can't cast it on the run at max-range THAT's the issue

You dont break speed instantly if is casted, no?
Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:38 AM by Riac
Tritri wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 2:26 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 2:41 AM
Tritri wrote: ↑
Sat 4 Apr 2020 10:03 PM
I don't see how not having pots would prevent bards from using their peel lol

lol not a bard player obviously

Sorry to say but I was a Bard player, and I see no problem in peeling and switching back to endo song lol

And even with end 3, tanks needs end song

yea 100%. however, imagine a time when everyone did not have end 3 pots and you put your drum away to try and fuck around on some side styles. you are instantly going to be yelled at in disc. the pots allow you that flexibility that you would otherwise not enjoy on a bard.
Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:44 PM by Tritri
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:38 AM
Tritri wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 2:26 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 2:41 AM
lol not a bard player obviously

Sorry to say but I was a Bard player, and I see no problem in peeling and switching back to endo song lol

And even with end 3, tanks needs end song

yea 100%. however, imagine a time when everyone did not have end 3 pots and you put your drum away to try and fuck around on some side styles. you are instantly going to be yelled at in disc. the pots allow you that flexibility that you would otherwise not enjoy on a bard.


Tbh, it's not really the pot, it's the fact that you can peel and get back to your instrument without losing the song

I have no idea if this is specific to phoenix or not though, I didn't play bard back then and didn't go that deep into learning its gameplay
Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:21 PM by sylvynyr
Tritri wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:44 PM
Tbh, it's not really the pot, it's the fact that you can peel and get back to your instrument without losing the song

I have no idea if this is specific to phoenix or not though, I didn't play bard back then and didn't go that deep into learning its gameplay

Pulses always lasted their full duration; that's the fundamental mechanic that allows twisting. However, songs should stop refreshing the next pulse once an Instrument is put away and weapon pulled out, so when switching back to the Instrument, the song would need to be played/activated again to get the next pulse.

Keeping in mind Songs (require instruments) != Chants (do not require instruments)
Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:51 PM by Tritri
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:21 PM
Tritri wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:44 PM
Tbh, it's not really the pot, it's the fact that you can peel and get back to your instrument without losing the song

I have no idea if this is specific to phoenix or not though, I didn't play bard back then and didn't go that deep into learning its gameplay

Pulses always lasted their full duration; that's the fundamental mechanic that allows twisting. However, songs should stop refreshing the next pulse once an Instrument is put away and weapon pulled out, so when switching back to the Instrument, the song would need to be played/activated again to get the next pulse.


This is not the case one phoenix, if you switch fast enough between weapon and instrument, you don't lose the pulse, no need to recast the song
Tue 7 Apr 2020 5:05 PM by Quik
Tritri wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:51 PM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:21 PM
Tritri wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:44 PM
Tbh, it's not really the pot, it's the fact that you can peel and get back to your instrument without losing the song

I have no idea if this is specific to phoenix or not though, I didn't play bard back then and didn't go that deep into learning its gameplay

Pulses always lasted their full duration; that's the fundamental mechanic that allows twisting. However, songs should stop refreshing the next pulse once an Instrument is put away and weapon pulled out, so when switching back to the Instrument, the song would need to be played/activated again to get the next pulse.


This is not the case one phoenix, if you switch fast enough between weapon and instrument, you don't lose the pulse, no need to recast the song

That is why he said they should...
Sat 11 Apr 2020 12:13 PM by Morann
It‘s a huge nerf to hib 8v8:
In general it will be much harder to rupt stuff like cure nearsight in the back. Bard would have to go in much deeper.

As a hib caster group - which is already one of the weakest set-ups - you will be able to break the pushing mid tank groups speed much later.

If the other spammable amnesias will stay at 2300 range, it will be even harder to castmezz as a bard.

Hope the devs really overthink the idea of reducing the amnesia range. Hib is already lacking 8v8 groups.
Sat 11 Apr 2020 4:22 PM by joshisanonymous
Morann wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 12:13 PM
It‘s a huge nerf to hib 8v8:
In general it will be much harder to rupt stuff like cure nearsight in the back. Bard would have to go in much deeper.

As a hib caster group - which is already one of the weakest set-ups - you will be able to break the pushing mid tank groups speed much later.

If the other spammable amnesias will stay at 2300 range, it will be even harder to castmezz as a bard.

Hope the devs really overthink the idea of reducing the amnesia range. Hib is already lacking 8v8 groups.

Maybe keep the range and make bard amnesia a cast instead of instant?

Also, are there Hib 8mans that aren't caster groups? Just surprised that you're saying they're weak, unless you mean weak relative to other realms only, because it seems like every Hib group has the same exact setup: bard, warden, druid, druid, hero, ment, chanter, eld.
Sat 11 Apr 2020 4:50 PM by Noashakra
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 4:22 PM
Morann wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 12:13 PM
It‘s a huge nerf to hib 8v8:
In general it will be much harder to rupt stuff like cure nearsight in the back. Bard would have to go in much deeper.

As a hib caster group - which is already one of the weakest set-ups - you will be able to break the pushing mid tank groups speed much later.

If the other spammable amnesias will stay at 2300 range, it will be even harder to castmezz as a bard.

Hope the devs really overthink the idea of reducing the amnesia range. Hib is already lacking 8v8 groups.

Maybe keep the range and make bard amnesia a cast instead of instant?

Also, are there Hib 8mans that aren't caster groups? Just surprised that you're saying they're weak, unless you mean weak relative to other realms only, because it seems like every Hib group has the same exact setup: bard, warden, druid, druid, hero, ment, chanter, eld.

The bard has low dex and has to rely on the instant to have the upper hand vs casters. If amnesia has a casting time, what's the point because you already have your ae mez that interupts, when the amenesia does not.
Sat 11 Apr 2020 8:40 PM by joshisanonymous
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 4:50 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 4:22 PM
Maybe keep the range and make bard amnesia a cast instead of instant?

Also, are there Hib 8mans that aren't caster groups? Just surprised that you're saying they're weak, unless you mean weak relative to other realms only, because it seems like every Hib group has the same exact setup: bard, warden, druid, druid, hero, ment, chanter, eld.

The bard has low dex and has to rely on the instant to have the upper hand vs casters. If amnesia has a casting time, what's the point because you already have your ae mez that interupts, when the amenesia does not.

That's the exact situation for healers, isn't it?
Sat 11 Apr 2020 8:46 PM by Noashakra
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 8:40 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 4:50 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 4:22 PM
Maybe keep the range and make bard amnesia a cast instead of instant?

Also, are there Hib 8mans that aren't caster groups? Just surprised that you're saying they're weak, unless you mean weak relative to other realms only, because it seems like every Hib group has the same exact setup: bard, warden, druid, druid, hero, ment, chanter, eld.

The bard has low dex and has to rely on the instant to have the upper hand vs casters. If amnesia has a casting time, what's the point because you already have your ae mez that interupts, when the amenesia does not.

That's the exact situation for healers, isn't it?

True, but I don't see the connection. Healers don't have exactly the same roles, they cc, but they heal so you can also compare them to a nature drood. I am just pointing out that casted amnesia would be useless, because it doesn't rupt so it would be pointless for a bard because he would just use the aemez.
Sun 12 Apr 2020 5:05 AM by joshisanonymous
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 8:46 PM
True, but I don't see the connection. Healers don't have exactly the same roles, they cc, but they heal so you can also compare them to a nature drood. I am just pointing out that casted amnesia would be useless, because it doesn't rupt so it would be pointless for a bard because he would just use the aemez.

My point was that pac healers play a similar role to bards and do it without insta amnesia, so it must be possible.
Sun 12 Apr 2020 6:38 AM by Freedomcall
These whole conversation about comparing different classes in different realms is meaningless.
You guys should look into it as a whole, not as a independent class.

Bard is a mezzer but also a interrupter, so it is actually half pac healer and half skald/shaman.
And pac healer is also half bard and half druid, so these classes doesn't 100% match.

One of the problems hib has with its setup is, it is bard and ment that has demezz spell.
Alb and Mid has almost automatically 2 demezzers in any setup cuz any 8man will include mins/sorc or augH/pacH.
But if you try to maintain 2 demezzers in hib grp, you need to include 2 bard(which pretty sucks) or 1 bard and 1 ment.
And then, if you want to maximize ment's utility, you need heat debuffer which is ench, and this grp is already leaned to caster grp.
Of course there are good hib tank grps as well, but bard needs to be extremely careful in that case cuz he is the only demezzer in grp.

I can't be sure what will happen if bard amnesia range is lowered, but these concerns from bards are relevant.
It's not a simple issue of 'other realm do well without 2300 range insta anmesia, why hibs can't do that?'
Anyway we shall see how devs will decide.
Sun 12 Apr 2020 9:52 AM by Noashakra
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 5:05 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 8:46 PM
True, but I don't see the connection. Healers don't have exactly the same roles, they cc, but they heal so you can also compare them to a nature drood. I am just pointing out that casted amnesia would be useless, because it doesn't rupt so it would be pointless for a bard because he would just use the aemez.

My point was that pac healers play a similar role to bards and do it without insta amnesia, so it must be possible.

They have the skald and the BD that can tank and interupt in the front line without having the problem to be interupted. It makes no sense to compare the two classes, you need to compare the setups as a whole.
Sun 12 Apr 2020 4:52 PM by joshisanonymous
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 9:52 AM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 5:05 AM
My point was that pac healers play a similar role to bards and do it without insta amnesia, so it must be possible.

They have the skald and the BD that can tank and interupt in the front line without having the problem to be interupted. It makes no sense to compare the two classes, you need to compare the setups as a whole.

And Hibs have an eld who can interrupt from a good distance and a druid that can interrupt, along with 4 pets instead of the typical Mid group with 0-1 pet. (Assuming a Hib caster group vs a Mid tank group, since thatès what you find 90% of the time.) And while a BD is a good interrupter, the idea that they can "tank" is definitely an overstatement. BDs in groups run 0-1 healer pets and usually are higher dark than supp, meaning they're still casters with very little self-healing; the only reason they can push better than other casters is because they can interrupt 1-2 people without stopping, but they'll still die very fast if there were others free to focus on them.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be harder for Hib without insta amnesia, but I'm doubtful that it would be much different from or any different from Mid's situation if were a cast instead.
Sun 12 Apr 2020 4:58 PM by joshisanonymous
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 6:38 AM
These whole conversation about comparing different classes in different realms is meaningless.
You guys should look into it as a whole, not as a independent class.

Bard is a mezzer but also a interrupter, so it is actually half pac healer and half skald/shaman.
And pac healer is also half bard and half druid, so these classes doesn't 100% match.

One of the problems hib has with its setup is, it is bard and ment that has demezz spell.
Alb and Mid has almost automatically 2 demezzers in any setup cuz any 8man will include mins/sorc or augH/pacH.
But if you try to maintain 2 demezzers in hib grp, you need to include 2 bard(which pretty sucks) or 1 bard and 1 ment.
And then, if you want to maximize ment's utility, you need heat debuffer which is ench, and this grp is already leaned to caster grp.
Of course there are good hib tank grps as well, but bard needs to be extremely careful in that case cuz he is the only demezzer in grp.

I can't be sure what will happen if bard amnesia range is lowered, but these concerns from bards are relevant.
It's not a simple issue of 'other realm do well without 2300 range insta anmesia, why hibs can't do that?'
Anyway we shall see how devs will decide.

I agree, it's definitely not a simple 1-to-1 comparison, but I also don't think it's obvious that amnesia needs to be insta or that the insta version needs to keep its range.

I'm not particularly concerned, in the long run, that's why I was just throwing out the idea of making it castable non-chalantly and not pushing hard for anything. I hardly ever 8man, and I don't play Hib, so my only real personal experience is 8mans running me down while I'm solo almost immediately after they get within range of being visible. However, they'd still run me down anyway because they have speed 6.
Mon 13 Apr 2020 1:43 AM by umbrellagenorm
one of the dummest idears ever.... it wrly shows what admins still like to play , go and play a bard and u see u have one cc all speedclass have 2, u make amensia weaker then before where i was able to rupt 100% with it ,now its only wrly affective on resist for cast rupt (cause u have 2 spells to rupt for that range cause otherwhise with all the cast cap u just reply casting and amensia doesnt wrly hurt) and you as bard need to rupt against sorch cabbas etc all with that castrange on regular so what the heck u are thinking to put his even for a idear in here- dont waste our time to make more unbalaced shit here pls / bard have still as 3 . status point empathy bonus what is broken since the class came, mabe think about to fix this btw dont you get it ppl playing alb cause of long combat range fight 2 sorch cabba - or ppl playing mid cause of insta stun +2 hand free skills +cele / now tell me about the special in hib anymore - sure lower range for us but then for sorch cabbas and all others to - this toon was once even intresting to play solo and u mess all up with ur life combined borken pet mechanics (non resist) etc but u think about amnesia to degrade what was none crying about before / make this shard balanced or get grilled in hell -greeting cooper
Mon 13 Apr 2020 1:49 AM by Riac
umbrellagenorm wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Apr 2020 1:43 AM
one of the dummest idears ever.... it wrly shows what admins still like to play , go and play a bard and u see u have one cc all speedclass have 2, u make amensia weaker then before where i was able to rupt 100% with it ,now its only wrly affective on resist for cast rupt (cause u have 2 spells to rupt for that range cause otherwhise with all the cast cap u just reply casting and amensia doesnt wrly hurt) and you as bard need to rupt against sorch cabbas etc all with that castrange on regular so what the heck u are thinking to put his even for a idear in here- dont waste our time to make more unbalaced shit here pls / bard have still as 3 . status point empathy bonus what is broken since the class came, mabe think about to fix this btw dont you get it ppl playing alb cause of long combat range fight 2 sorch cabba - or ppl playing mid cause of insta stun +2 hand free skills +cele / now tell me about the special in hib anymore - sure lower range for us but then for sorch cabbas and all others to - this toon was once even intresting to play solo and u mess all up with ur life combined borken pet mechanics (non resist) etc but u think about amnesia to degrade what was none crying about before / make this shard balanced or get grilled in hell -greeting cooper

Cant tell if hes pretending to be retarded or is actually retarded.
Mon 13 Apr 2020 3:52 AM by gotwqqd
Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Apr 2020 1:49 AM
umbrellagenorm wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Apr 2020 1:43 AM
one of the dummest idears ever.... it wrly shows what admins still like to play , go and play a bard and u see u have one cc all speedclass have 2, u make amensia weaker then before where i was able to rupt 100% with it ,now its only wrly affective on resist for cast rupt (cause u have 2 spells to rupt for that range cause otherwhise with all the cast cap u just reply casting and amensia doesnt wrly hurt) and you as bard need to rupt against sorch cabbas etc all with that castrange on regular so what the heck u are thinking to put his even for a idear in here- dont waste our time to make more unbalaced shit here pls / bard have still as 3 . status point empathy bonus what is broken since the class came, mabe think about to fix this btw dont you get it ppl playing alb cause of long combat range fight 2 sorch cabba - or ppl playing mid cause of insta stun +2 hand free skills +cele / now tell me about the special in hib anymore - sure lower range for us but then for sorch cabbas and all others to - this toon was once even intresting to play solo and u mess all up with ur life combined borken pet mechanics (non resist) etc but u think about amnesia to degrade what was none crying about before / make this shard balanced or get grilled in hell -greeting cooper

Cant tell if hes pretending to be retarded or is actually retarded.
Yup
Comparing all the instants he has and a short recast for mezz to a skald two instants on 30 second timer
Mon 13 Apr 2020 4:27 AM by Azrael
Don't understand a word of it, but since I am playing mid mainly at the moment, when does this change come?
Fri 17 Apr 2020 3:40 PM by Caemma
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 6:38 AM
These whole conversation about comparing different classes in different realms is meaningless.
You guys should look into it as a whole, not as a independent class.

Bard is a mezzer but also a interrupter, so it is actually half pac healer and half skald/shaman.
And pac healer is also half bard and half druid, so these classes doesn't 100% match.

One of the problems hib has with its setup is, it is bard and ment that has demezz spell.
Alb and Mid has almost automatically 2 demezzers in any setup cuz any 8man will include mins/sorc or augH/pacH.
But if you try to maintain 2 demezzers in hib grp, you need to include 2 bard(which pretty sucks) or 1 bard and 1 ment.
And then, if you want to maximize ment's utility, you need heat debuffer which is ench, and this grp is already leaned to caster grp.
Of course there are good hib tank grps as well, but bard needs to be extremely careful in that case cuz he is the only demezzer in grp.

I can't be sure what will happen if bard amnesia range is lowered, but these concerns from bards are relevant.
It's not a simple issue of 'other realm do well without 2300 range insta anmesia, why hibs can't do that?'
Anyway we shall see how devs will decide.
Exactly, things needs to be seen from the whole picture not the "single situation".
But it seems they opened this topic to just let ppl fight each other and digest the patch... I've yet to see a comment from a staff member about the actual balance reasons towards all the concerns ppl brought up here.

None.

The only comment was about disliking "asymmetric balance" - which saddly it's the core of this game - cause classes almost never match each other between realms.. but group compositions does (in theory).
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:01 PM by Sagz
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 5:05 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 8:46 PM
True, but I don't see the connection. Healers don't have exactly the same roles, they cc, but they heal so you can also compare them to a nature drood. I am just pointing out that casted amnesia would be useless, because it doesn't rupt so it would be pointless for a bard because he would just use the aemez.

My point was that pac healers play a similar role to bards and do it without insta amnesia, so it must be possible.

You are right, but they have a root, stun both single and aoe, an instant for stun and aoe, that's not a good comparison, give those to the bard.....he wont use insta amnesia either.

As far as the castable amnesia
Yea, go ahead and cast that cure NS while i spam that on you with my 2300 2 sec cast, if you only have the first cure NS there goes a good 10 sec on a fight, so don't tell me it is useless. I don't care about the change, but change them all to 1850. There are SOO many other issues that are more important in my opinion that the instant amnesia.

If you think the bard "relys" on the instant amnesia in a fight your cray, its really only used to break speed reliably. Helps when you have no other form of CC where Sorc, Healer have 2 or 3.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:25 PM by Necas
After the change I have to ask: Do the GM test the change?? I do not think so... feeling like i have perma blue amnesia!

Sorry but your change is too critical for a character which is underplayed - i will stop playing bard now and maybe stop playing on phoenix... sad changes - sad end of a good freeshard!

And for the haters: I played pac healer, sorc and bard, if u are neutral you see that bard is weakest of all 3!
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:36 PM by Jitter
Hi. Jitter 10l8 bard OTP here.
I'm gonna keep this nice and short.
I firmly believe that bards old amnesia was OP and deserved a nerf.
Though, I believe the range change to 1850 guts the ability, class and realm as a whole. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

I would suggest:
Increasing both amnesia ranges to 2000 as a starting point.

Kind regards,
Freshly Retired Bard 4/17/2020
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:44 PM by ColdHands
Sagz wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:01 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 5:05 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Apr 2020 8:46 PM
True, but I don't see the connection. Healers don't have exactly the same roles, they cc, but they heal so you can also compare them to a nature drood. I am just pointing out that casted amnesia would be useless, because it doesn't rupt so it would be pointless for a bard because he would just use the aemez.

My point was that pac healers play a similar role to bards and do it without insta amnesia, so it must be possible.

You are right, but they have a root, stun both single and aoe, an instant for stun and aoe, that's not a good comparison, give those to the bard.....he wont use insta amnesia either.

As far as the castable amnesia
Yea, go ahead and cast that cure NS while i spam that on you with my 2300 2 sec cast, if you only have the first cure NS there goes a good 10 sec on a fight, so don't tell me it is useless. I don't care about the change, but change them all to 1850. There are SOO many other issues that are more important in my opinion that the instant amnesia.

If you think the bard "relys" on the instant amnesia in a fight your cray, its really only used to break speed reliably. Helps when you have no other form of CC where Sorc, Healer have 2 or 3.

Disagree. Bards play a lot of roles but Amnesia is how bard stops enemy heals (2000 Range) mid fight without having to push through the front line. Now a bard has to get past enemy tanks to rupt healers. Now when an assist target is called the bard has to rush into the enemy back line to stop heals or the intended target just gets chain healed. Now an Eld has to plant and NS rupt and risk getting blown up.

In my opinion they should have just made Insta amnesia not break speed, but allow it to prevent a new speed tick if speed is not already up. All of the controversy was around bards being able to choose to engage at 2300 range when alb and mid do not have that ability.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:53 PM by Sagz
ColdHands wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:44 PM
Sagz wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:01 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 5:05 AM
My point was that pac healers play a similar role to bards and do it without insta amnesia, so it must be possible.

You are right, but they have a root, stun both single and aoe, an instant for stun and aoe, that's not a good comparison, give those to the bard.....he wont use insta amnesia either.

As far as the castable amnesia
Yea, go ahead and cast that cure NS while i spam that on you with my 2300 2 sec cast, if you only have the first cure NS there goes a good 10 sec on a fight, so don't tell me it is useless. I don't care about the change, but change them all to 1850. There are SOO many other issues that are more important in my opinion that the instant amnesia.

If you think the bard "relys" on the instant amnesia in a fight your cray, its really only used to break speed reliably. Helps when you have no other form of CC where Sorc, Healer have 2 or 3.

Disagree. Bards play a lot of roles but Amnesia is how bard stops enemy heals (2000 Range) mid fight without having to push through the front line. Now a bard has to get past enemy tanks to rupt healers. Now when an assist target is called the bard has to rush into the enemy back line to stop heals or the intended target just gets chain healed. Now an Eld has to plant and NS rupt and risk getting blown up.

In my opinion they should have just made Insta amnesia not break speed, but allow it to prevent a new speed tick if speed is not already up. All of the controversy was around bards being able to choose to engage at 2300 range when alb and mid do not have that ability.

OK, how is this any different then the healer 2300 or sorc 2300. I said just make them all 1850 then. now they can do it (with more forms of CC) and bards cant, and btw bards is on a timer and cant be spammed.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:59 PM by Noashakra
Good job, my bard is getting an early retirement.
Why nerf the ability to the ground instead of trying thing in a gradual way.
It's the MoP / WP nerf all over again.

I was really happy with your decisions, but since the HP buff, I have the feeling you do things without planning.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 5:44 PM by joshisanonymous
Sagz wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:01 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 5:05 AM
My point was that pac healers play a similar role to bards and do it without insta amnesia, so it must be possible.

You are right, but they have a root, stun both single and aoe, an instant for stun and aoe, that's not a good comparison, give those to the bard.....he wont use insta amnesia either.

As far as the castable amnesia
Yea, go ahead and cast that cure NS while i spam that on you with my 2300 2 sec cast, if you only have the first cure NS there goes a good 10 sec on a fight, so don't tell me it is useless. I don't care about the change, but change them all to 1850. There are SOO many other issues that are more important in my opinion that the instant amnesia.

If you think the bard "relys" on the instant amnesia in a fight your cray, its really only used to break speed reliably. Helps when you have no other form of CC where Sorc, Healer have 2 or 3.

But healers don't have root and they're certainly not using insta stuns to interrupt.

But it also sounds like you're saying you'd prefer to have the same long range but castable amnesia on bards, so whatev.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 5:48 PM by ColdHands
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 5:44 PM
Sagz wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:01 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Apr 2020 5:05 AM
My point was that pac healers play a similar role to bards and do it without insta amnesia, so it must be possible.

You are right, but they have a root, stun both single and aoe, an instant for stun and aoe, that's not a good comparison, give those to the bard.....he wont use insta amnesia either.

As far as the castable amnesia
Yea, go ahead and cast that cure NS while i spam that on you with my 2300 2 sec cast, if you only have the first cure NS there goes a good 10 sec on a fight, so don't tell me it is useless. I don't care about the change, but change them all to 1850. There are SOO many other issues that are more important in my opinion that the instant amnesia.

If you think the bard "relys" on the instant amnesia in a fight your cray, its really only used to break speed reliably. Helps when you have no other form of CC where Sorc, Healer have 2 or 3.

But healers don't have root and they're certainly not using insta stuns to interrupt.

But it also sounds like you're saying you'd prefer to have the same long range but castable amnesia on bards, so whatev.

Healer gets root in PAC spec, and a healer will use an insta stun vs a sorc or bard casting a mez. or maybe a thurg whos going ham. Insta stuns are on a 10 min timer, no good healer holds on to them.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 5:56 PM by joshisanonymous
Necas wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:25 PM
After the change I have to ask: Do the GM test the change?? I do not think so... feeling like i have perma blue amnesia!

Sorry but your change is too critical for a character which is underplayed - i will stop playing bard now and maybe stop playing on phoenix... sad changes - sad end of a good freeshard!

And for the haters: I played pac healer, sorc and bard, if u are neutral you see that bard is weakest of all 3!

/serverinfo 50 makes it look like bards are played quite a bit more than most classes, but maybe there's something deceiving about that result. They could all be in PvE I guess. In any case, I hope people don't decide to quit en masse over this, because I wouldn't be surprised to see things revert, at least partially, if the devs feel it was too heavy-handed of a change. I mean, this thread literally started with them saying they'd increase it to 2000 range later if needed.

Personally, from my admittedly limited experience dealing with CC in group fights, it seems like it would've been more reasonable to make it a castable spell instead of instant. I've never once heard anyone complain about healer amnesia, for instance, and most people seem to be saying they need the amnesia range to safely interrupt back lines whereas the change seems to have come about because of a concern over breaking speed.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 6:53 PM by Caemma
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 5:56 PM
Necas wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:25 PM
After the change I have to ask: Do the GM test the change?? I do not think so... feeling like i have perma blue amnesia!

Sorry but your change is too critical for a character which is underplayed - i will stop playing bard now and maybe stop playing on phoenix... sad changes - sad end of a good freeshard!

And for the haters: I played pac healer, sorc and bard, if u are neutral you see that bard is weakest of all 3!

/serverinfo 50 makes it look like bards are played quite a bit more than most classes, but maybe there's something deceiving about that result. They could all be in PvE I guess. In any case, I hope people don't decide to quit en masse over this, because I wouldn't be surprised to see things revert, at least partially, if the devs feel it was too heavy-handed of a change. I mean, this thread literally started with them saying they'd increase it to 2000 range later if needed.

Personally, from my admittedly limited experience dealing with CC in group fights, it seems like it would've been more reasonable to make it a castable spell instead of instant. I've never once heard anyone complain about healer amnesia, for instance, and most people seem to be saying they need the amnesia range to safely interrupt back lines whereas the change seems to have come about because of a concern over breaking speed.
Frankly,
reading "I've never once heard anyone complain about healer amnesia" from someone that doesn't even knew that healers have root has very little importance for this discussion imho.
Also, healers do use insta stun to interrupt... for what else reason they should use them to rofl? Assist insta-stun? LOL.
The easiest way to defeat an enemy CC'er as a pac healer is exactly throwing an insta stun and then single mez.

To be honest: Here it seems that someone got pissed cause couldn't run away from a bard and decided to nerf it regardless of its effects on the whole panorama.

Prove me wrong pls
Fri 17 Apr 2020 7:10 PM by Mendrik
JUST STOP PLAYING A BARD HIBS.. just stop playing it...
This change is the greatest bullshit i have ever seen. Since 20 years the bard has these skills. To change it now makes this server and group gameplay on HIB absolutly worse. You schould think about all the skills and compare a bit better DEVs... This change (1850) is absoluty bad! It should always be instant and at least 2000 range.
I stopped ...
Fri 17 Apr 2020 7:17 PM by Mordenaar
10 groups in GvG right now, EU PT.

1 of which is a hib group.

Makes total sense to nerf hibs if you want to remove hib groups from 8v8. They're already the weakest realm. The fact everyone plays either mid hybrid or full alb caster is evidence enough.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 7:18 PM by necrolove1
insta Amnesia at the very least should not put people into combat. though I fully agree with ALL the changes, being able to rupt AOE at 2300 range instantly is silly.

also, all the class comparisons i see in this post are ridiculous, you cannot compare bard to minis skalds etc.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 7:32 PM by Noashakra
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 7:18 PM
insta Amnesia at the very least should not put people into combat. though I fully agree with ALL the changes, being able to rupt AOE at 2300 range instantly is silly.

also, all the class comparisons i see in this post are ridiculous, you cannot compare bard to minis skalds etc.

it's NOT a rupt lol... My god...
Fri 17 Apr 2020 7:36 PM by Patron
There are some player here are, so retarded and talking so much crap all the time. No clue about daoc but a opinion for everyshit.
And these people complaining about the unique bard amnesia since the beginning of Phoenix and now the staff listen to them.

Absolutely garbage, but i wrote enough about this.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 7:37 PM by Caemma
"explain what amnesia does then" - quoted from the deleted post that was above here after talking about this change

Here is a perfect example of why not everyone can provide a proper feedback.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 7:47 PM by joshisanonymous
Caemma wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 6:53 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 5:56 PM
/serverinfo 50 makes it look like bards are played quite a bit more than most classes, but maybe there's something deceiving about that result. They could all be in PvE I guess. In any case, I hope people don't decide to quit en masse over this, because I wouldn't be surprised to see things revert, at least partially, if the devs feel it was too heavy-handed of a change. I mean, this thread literally started with them saying they'd increase it to 2000 range later if needed.

Personally, from my admittedly limited experience dealing with CC in group fights, it seems like it would've been more reasonable to make it a castable spell instead of instant. I've never once heard anyone complain about healer amnesia, for instance, and most people seem to be saying they need the amnesia range to safely interrupt back lines whereas the change seems to have come about because of a concern over breaking speed.
Frankly,
reading "I've never once heard anyone complain about healer amnesia" from someone that doesn't even knew that healers have root has very little importance for this discussion imho.
Also, healers do use insta stun to interrupt... for what else reason they should use them to rofl? Assist insta-stun? LOL.
The easiest way to defeat an enemy CC'er as a pac healer is exactly throwing an insta stun and then single mez.

To be honest: Here it seems that someone got pissed cause couldn't run away from a bard and decided to nerf it regardless of its effects on the whole panorama.

Prove me wrong pls

My bad, I guess they do have a root. Yet another thing I've never seen a healer use in any context whatsoever.

But I don't think that makes much of a difference when the subject was "how do we interrupt the back lines without insta 2300 range amnesia". Are healers using a 1500 range insta stun to interrupt a back line? I guess it's possible since Mids are more likely to play groups that push hard, but what about any other context? Do healers in Mid caster groups do better at interrupting back lines because of more forms of 1500 range CC or is it something else?

In any case, I don't know that I was suggesting anything that would've been worse for your bard than what they've actually done, was I? Nor was I trying to overstate how important my view was, as you can see by how I hedged my message.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:06 PM by Morann
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:39 PM
The goal is to not really affect the bard gameplay in actual fights but just to make the ability for hib to force fights closer to the other realms. A possible alternative would have been to only make the combat flag happen when the target is below a certain range, however, there would have been no indication for the bard player.

Not affect the bard gameplay?
This change is an absolute joke!

Can’t amnesia heals / cure near sight / mezzes or whatever in the back anymore..

It’s note like alb grps have few sorcs with quick cast and high dex.

Plus the other realms keep the 2300 spammable amnesia?

This does affect the gameplay a lot! Bard will have to go in much deeper.
As if hib isn’t by far the weakest realm in 8v8. Do devs even look at the gvg list?

Possible solutions would have been either:
Give Bards a compensation like on live: 2nd dd and root.
Or keep the amnesia as it is with 2300 range, just don’t make it break speed above 2000 range..
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:06 PM by Noashakra
Amnesia doesn't interupt, it just loops your cast, so it's totally not the same as an rupt...
If you are at the start of your cast, it will barelly change anything. It never interupts though.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:07 PM by daytonchambers
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:06 PM
Amnesia doesn't interupt, it just loop your cast, so it's totally not the same as an rupt...
If you are at the start of your cast, it will barelly change anything. It never interupts though.


Unless it's resisted
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:07 PM by necrolove1
Caemma wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 7:37 PM
"explain what amnesia does then" - quoted from the deleted post that was above here after talking about this change

Here is a perfect example of why not everyone can provide a proper feedback.

You were right, technically its not a rupt. Meant to edit it and repost later I was about to go into a meeting and decided better to just delete it. The result is the same as a rupt, for lack of a better word, its a rupt. Dont get so upset buddy
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:11 PM by necrolove1
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 7:36 PM
There are some player here are (helle Necrolove), so retarded and talking so much crap all the time. No clue about daoc but a opinion for everyshit.
And these people complaining about the unique bard amnesia since the beginning of Phoenix and now the staff listen to them.

Absolutely garbage, but i wrote enough about this.

If you're gonna call me retarded atleast make sure you write correctly man "There are some player here are (helle Necrolove)" i get it though, English isn't my first language either, i hope it isn't yours. I'm not here for back and fourth, I understood when they nerfed my class and I understood why Minis might get a nerf. There are things that in the minds of the developer sound good on paper but in practice need adjustment, Case in point Bard Amneisia. I like many others have played DAOC for many years, and even have a bard on Pheonix. I still agree with these changes, Please try to be more constructive next time
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:15 PM by Patron
Im sorry dude, i already correct this spike. I beg your apologize.

Its just you seem to have no clue what you are talking about when you
fully agree with ALL the changes, being able to rupt AOE at 2300 range instantly is silly.

Sorcs and healers are able to rupt with amnesia on 2300 range since 20 years. And the instant is a special unique ability which belongs to the bard since 20 years and comes with the downside to not be able to surpress a caster the whole time like sorc n healer.

but im sure you are a nice human but yeah... you have no clue what u are talking about. Its like that in Daoc since ever and you think this should be different.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:19 PM by Drughen
The problem is that you often are the solo demezzer as a bard in an 8 man and if you are the solo demezzer you cant be on 1850 range to interupt becouse you will get mezzed by either a sorc 1850 mezz range or a healerrunning forward and mezzing.

Oh but you can mezz the healer yes but he will get demezzed by the other healer or the sm so its not the 40 sec out of fight scenario when you get mezzed.

So whats the counter either you must go full caster group with a menta for demezz which will be owned by 5 body train setups with longer range on most casters. Or you go 2 nerfed bards in a melee group which cant win against mid tankers with celerity.

Overall the weakest realm gets weaker since the gvg balance right now is lik 10 mid groups, 4 Alb groups 0-1 Hib group. The GVG ppl tend to play the strongest realm....
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:23 PM by Patron
And bard have no quickcast like sorc... but anyway.
sorc wins every mezzduell except bard can reach in 1500 instantmezzrange
Dumb people do dumb things
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:25 PM by necrolove1
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:15 PM
Im sorry dude, i already correct this spike. I beg your apologize.

Its just you seem to have no clue what you are talking about when you
fully agree with ALL the changes, being able to rupt AOE at 2300 range instantly is silly.

Sorcs and healers are able to rupt on 2300 range since 20 years... and the instant is a special unique ability which belongs to the bard since 20 years...
but im sure you are a nice human but yeah... no clue

I forgive you

But sorc/healer is casted, if you wanna give bards casted amnesia I'm on board with you.
Do you really think Hibs are going to start magically losing all 8v8 (that rarley exist outside of Terms of use breaking discords) because amnesia goes to 1875 or 2000??

I mean if you wanna keep bringing up the 20 years statement, Can you compare live bard amnesia to pheonix amnesia for me?

Also how is this an arguement, are you saying that nothing should ever change? Apparently the one who has no clue isn't me... chill out homie its just a game.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:27 PM by necrolove1
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:23 PM
And bard have no quickcast like sorc... but anyway.
sorc wins every mezzduell except bard can reach in 1500 instantmezzrange
Dumb people do dumb things

If a sorc wins a mez duel against a 1875 range instant amnesia that is not because amnesia was nerfed.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:37 PM by necrolove1
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:23 PM
And bard have no quickcast like sorc... but anyway.
sorc wins every mezzduell except bard can reach in 1500 instantmezzrange
Dumb people do dumb things

sorcs dont have heals like bards nor studed armor nor speed 6 nor SoS etc., I'd be TOTALLY on board if bards wore Cloth hell give em 3 quick casts... Apples and oranges stop comparing 1 class to another and look at the big picture.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:05 PM by thirian24
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:37 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:23 PM
And bard have no quickcast like sorc... but anyway.
sorc wins every mezzduell except bard can reach in 1500 instantmezzrange
Dumb people do dumb things

sorcs dont have heals like bards nor studed armor nor speed 6 nor SoS etc., I'd be TOTALLY on board if bards wore Cloth hell give em 3 quick casts... Apples and oranges stop comparing 1 class to another and look at the big picture.

I don't think he is compairing the class as in armor, RAs etc.

But rather he is saying they are both the main CC for each respective realm. So therefore talking about their main role in RvR is what he is doing. So how else would you try to compair them? How else would you compair the main CC for each realm without bringing up what armor type they wear?
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:11 PM by necrolove1
thirian24 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:05 PM
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:37 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:23 PM
And bard have no quickcast like sorc... but anyway.
sorc wins every mezzduell except bard can reach in 1500 instantmezzrange
Dumb people do dumb things

sorcs dont have heals like bards nor studed armor nor speed 6 nor SoS etc., I'd be TOTALLY on board if bards wore Cloth hell give em 3 quick casts... Apples and oranges stop comparing 1 class to another and look at the big picture.

I don't think he is compairing the class as in armor, RAs etc.

But rather he is saying they are both the main CC for each respective realm. So therefore talking about their main role in RvR is what he is doing. So how else would you try to compair them? How else would you compair the main CC for each realm without bringing up what armor type they wear?

You cannot compare them, outside of mez they have COMPLETLEY different roles in a group, me using armor etc, was just and example to show how absurd it is to compare them. Thats the beauty of DAOC there are no Mirrored classes. once again, look at the big picture.

Fact is Amnesia is going to get nerfed, belly aching about it isn't going to help.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:13 PM by necrolove1
IMHO i think the biggest complaint about insta amnesia is the fact that it puts you in combat (smaller groups trying to run from hib 8mans). If it stayed 2300 and didn't do this, i don't think it would as much of an issue.

there is also the issue of no realm being able to have a chance in a mez duel against hibs unless they get the jump, do you really think this is fair gameplay? Being that mez is a huge part of this game.

I think bards should still have their insta amnesia being able to ''make current spell casted useless" but there should be some adjustment.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:32 PM by Cadebrennus
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:37 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:23 PM
And bard have no quickcast like sorc... but anyway.
sorc wins every mezzduell except bard can reach in 1500 instantmezzrange
Dumb people do dumb things

sorcs dont have heals like bards nor studed armor nor speed 6 nor SoS etc., I'd be TOTALLY on board if bards wore Cloth hell give em 3 quick casts... Apples and oranges stop comparing 1 class to another and look at the big picture.

The classes that can push in and CC have chain armor (Minstrel and Skald.) If the Devs are going to force Bards to play the same way, shouldn't they at least have scale armor?
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:38 PM by Mendrik
Drughen wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:19 PM
The problem is that you often are the solo demezzer as a bard in an 8 man and if you are the solo demezzer you cant be on 1850 range to interupt becouse you will get mezzed by either a sorc 1850 mezz range or a healerrunning forward and mezzing.

Oh but you can mezz the healer yes but he will get demezzed by the other healer or the sm so its not the 40 sec out of fight scenario when you get mezzed.

So whats the counter either you must go full caster group with a menta for demezz which will be owned by 5 body train setups with longer range on most casters. Or you go 2 nerfed bards in a melee group which cant win against mid tankers with celerity.

Overall the weakest realm gets weaker since the gvg balance right now is lik 10 mid groups, 4 Alb groups 0-1 Hib group. The GVG ppl tend to play the strongest realm....


Well explained...!!!
These are the main problems now. But there are much more details you can go into regarding group fights against ALB and MId with 1 bard (+Ment), 2bards (melee) or even zerg fights. We have to completly rethink our gameplay which is much worse in every case now.
So i say it again... REMOVE THESE CHANGES.... until this happens ... ALL HIBS - STOP PLAYING BARDS !
i did ...
*damn i only want to post once... but this is sooooooo annoying.. thinking about to stop PHO completly.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:39 PM by necrolove1
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:32 PM
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:37 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:23 PM
And bard have no quickcast like sorc... but anyway.
sorc wins every mezzduell except bard can reach in 1500 instantmezzrange
Dumb people do dumb things

sorcs dont have heals like bards nor studed armor nor speed 6 nor SoS etc., I'd be TOTALLY on board if bards wore Cloth hell give em 3 quick casts... Apples and oranges stop comparing 1 class to another and look at the big picture.

The classes that can push in and CC have chain armor (Minstrel and Skald.) If the Devs are going to force Bards to play the same way, shouldn't they at least have scale armor?

Since you are so keen on comparing classes, lets give bards scale, but amnesia is only 700 range like these classes push and rupt abilities. sounds dumb right? so does comparing these classes.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:42 PM by necrolove1
Mendrik wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:38 PM
Drughen wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:19 PM
The problem is that you often are the solo demezzer as a bard in an 8 man and if you are the solo demezzer you cant be on 1850 range to interupt becouse you will get mezzed by either a sorc 1850 mezz range or a healerrunning forward and mezzing.

Oh but you can mezz the healer yes but he will get demezzed by the other healer or the sm so its not the 40 sec out of fight scenario when you get mezzed.

So whats the counter either you must go full caster group with a menta for demezz which will be owned by 5 body train setups with longer range on most casters. Or you go 2 nerfed bards in a melee group which cant win against mid tankers with celerity.

Overall the weakest realm gets weaker since the gvg balance right now is lik 10 mid groups, 4 Alb groups 0-1 Hib group. The GVG ppl tend to play the strongest realm....


Well explained...!!!
These are the main problems now. But there are much more details you can go into regarding group fights against ALB and MId with 1 bard (+Ment), 2bards (melee) or even zerg fights. We have to completly rethink our gameplay which is much worse in every case now.
So i say it again... REMOVE THESE CHANGES.... until this happens ... ALL HIBS - STOP PLAYING BARDS !
i did ...
*damn i only want to post once... but this is sooooooo annoying.. thinking about to stop PHO completly.

then run a second demezzer? its not like mentalists are garbage, i don't understand your arguement. how does this have anything to do with Amnesia?
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:45 PM by Cadebrennus
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:39 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:32 PM
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:37 PM
sorcs dont have heals like bards nor studed armor nor speed 6 nor SoS etc., I'd be TOTALLY on board if bards wore Cloth hell give em 3 quick casts... Apples and oranges stop comparing 1 class to another and look at the big picture.

The classes that can push in and CC have chain armor (Minstrel and Skald.) If the Devs are going to force Bards to play the same way, shouldn't they at least have scale armor?

Since you are so keen on comparing classes, lets give bards scale, but amnesia is only 700 range like these classes push and rupt abilities. sounds dumb right? so does comparing these classes.

Stealth, climb walls, and pet that allows nonstop free CC clear. Dude, this is far too easy.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:49 PM by necrolove1
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:45 PM
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:39 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:32 PM
The classes that can push in and CC have chain armor (Minstrel and Skald.) If the Devs are going to force Bards to play the same way, shouldn't they at least have scale armor?

Since you are so keen on comparing classes, lets give bards scale, but amnesia is only 700 range like these classes push and rupt abilities. sounds dumb right? so does comparing these classes.

Stealth, climb walls, and pet that allows nonstop free CC clear. Dude, this is far too easy.

okay guy

so bards problems is that they aren't minis? what is your arguement here? i'd be down with bards getting stealth/climb walls if they lost their heals. Also the free CC clear is getting fixed and minis aren't losing thier minds... i'm done with you, move along.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 10:03 PM by thirian24
Sorc mezz is 1875
Bars mezz is 1500

Having insta amnesia at 2300 gave bards the ability, if given the proper opportunity, to be able to push in to land the first mezz.

Bars amnesia is now 1850 according to Uthred in general tab on Phoenix disco.

Theurg pet range is 2000. This gave bards the ability to rupt out that theurg that was fucking forever away rupting out an entire grp.

Sorc has quick cast. So that he still has a viable means to land a mezz if rupted.

Bard is in very bad spot now.

But yeah, Bard needed nerfed for sure.
Fri 17 Apr 2020 10:04 PM by necrolove1
No longer responding to anything that isn't constructive, just gonna post what i think would be a fair idea.

I think a decent idea would be for Amesia to keep 2000-2300 range but with the following adjustments.

1. It does not put you in combat/break speed ( 90% of the time this is only used in this manner to secure an unfair fight no effect on bard's role in a group)

2. it does not affect spells that are quickcasted ( there has to be some counter to the amnesia effect)

3. it does not affect spells under usage of MoC (same as number 2)
Fri 17 Apr 2020 10:12 PM by Drughen
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:11 PM
thirian24 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 9:05 PM
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:37 PM
sorcs dont have heals like bards nor studed armor nor speed 6 nor SoS etc., I'd be TOTALLY on board if bards wore Cloth hell give em 3 quick casts... Apples and oranges stop comparing 1 class to another and look at the big picture.

I don't think he is compairing the class as in armor, RAs etc.

But rather he is saying they are both the main CC for each respective realm. So therefore talking about their main role in RvR is what he is doing. So how else would you try to compair them? How else would you compair the main CC for each realm without bringing up what armor type they wear?

You cannot compare them, outside of mez they have COMPLETLEY different roles in a group, me using armor etc, was just and example to show how absurd it is to compare them. Thats the beauty of DAOC there are no Mirrored classes. once again, look at the big picture.

Fact is Amnesia is going to get nerfed, belly aching about it isn't going to help.

So the peaplo belly aching about amnesia being OP from the beginning have more right to belly aching? your arguments dosent add up, with that argument all should be as it was in old daoc no changes.

I think this is a really bad change at the current meta since there is an imbalance already towards HIB being the worst realm if you look att GVG list every primetime also all streams showing MIDS + ALB groups steamrolling Hibs.
Sat 18 Apr 2020 1:06 AM by funkeytown
Oh man. This is amazing. As a smallmaning minstrel, bards are the scourge of the realm. Anyone whining about minstrels getting wall climbing, stealth, a stun, pets, can just stop. Bards have buffs and heals, they're not remotely the same type of class. They just happen to share a speed buff. Anyone complaining about sorcs and healers having 2300 amnesia can stop. Bards have insta amnesia, not a cast time. Anyone crying on this thread, can continue. Your tears sustain me
Sat 18 Apr 2020 3:33 AM by Failwalker
In the history of daoc, bards amnesia range never was changed ever after patch 1.42 (2002 lul)
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.42
SPELL SYSTEM NOTES

- All spells were gone through and ranges made consistent. No spell was reduced in range, but many were increased, in order to be consistent with spells from other casters, and in some cases with spells from other Realms. The following spells had their ranges increased: Shift Health, Reflect Attack, Inflict Minor Forgetfulness, Wake Senseless, Fungal Dispersion, Grasping Creepers, Fungal Covering, Minor Earthen Power, Minor Shield of Magma, Renew Spirit, Spirit Flow, Hugin's Affliction, Lesser Mind Jolt, Summon Fire, Minor Combustion, Minor Raven Bolt, Misleading Rapture,Minor Lullaby, Detect Flaw, Encourage Aggression, Convert Spirit, Persuade Will.

About time to break the boundaries !

I mean.
Empathy still being the secondary classStat that increases at every levelup while it does nothing for bards.
How about getting a look into that ?
Or get confuse-spells to have some effect against charmed pets like it used to? (excluding necro pets) Also was buggy but live chose the easy way out and just gave all pets immunity against confusion spells at some point.

Oh well.
Sat 18 Apr 2020 7:40 AM by Noashakra
funkeytown wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Apr 2020 1:06 AM
Oh man. This is amazing. As a smallmaning minstrel, bards are the scourge of the realm. Anyone whining about minstrels getting wall climbing, stealth, a stun, pets, can just stop. Bards have buffs and heals, they're not remotely the same type of class. They just happen to share a speed buff. Anyone complaining about sorcs and healers having 2300 amnesia can stop. Bards have insta amnesia, not a cast time. Anyone crying on this thread, can continue. Your tears sustain me

A ministrel complaining bards are too OP. In what world are we living?
Sat 18 Apr 2020 8:51 AM by Patron
Noashakra wrote: A ministrel complaining bards are too OP. In what world are we living?
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:23 PM
Dumb people do dumb things
Sat 18 Apr 2020 11:06 AM by gotwqqd
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Apr 2020 7:40 AM
funkeytown wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Apr 2020 1:06 AM
Oh man. This is amazing. As a smallmaning minstrel, bards are the scourge of the realm. Anyone whining about minstrels getting wall climbing, stealth, a stun, pets, can just stop. Bards have buffs and heals, they're not remotely the same type of class. They just happen to share a speed buff. Anyone complaining about sorcs and healers having 2300 amnesia can stop. Bards have insta amnesia, not a cast time. Anyone crying on this thread, can continue. Your tears sustain me

A ministrel complaining bards are too OP. In what world are we living?

Deflection
Sat 18 Apr 2020 3:54 PM by tyrantanic
I honestly haven't noticed the change other than not being able to catch people Wilsoning. Then again, I never stay at 2k+ range from players I intend to interrupt. I'm all for having a second DD though.
Sat 18 Apr 2020 4:15 PM by Rov
Going to get nearsighted before you can even drop speed on enemy tanks now
Sat 18 Apr 2020 4:33 PM by Fenork
No sense change imo.

srsly, i cant see a positive impact on this change in rvr
Sat 18 Apr 2020 7:33 PM by Sagz
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:25 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:15 PM
Im sorry dude, i already correct this spike. I beg your apologize.

Its just you seem to have no clue what you are talking about when you
fully agree with ALL the changes, being able to rupt AOE at 2300 range instantly is silly.

Sorcs and healers are able to rupt on 2300 range since 20 years... and the instant is a special unique ability which belongs to the bard since 20 years...
but im sure you are a nice human but yeah... no clue

I forgive you

But sorc/healer is casted, if you wanna give bards casted amnesia I'm on board with you.
Do you really think Hibs are going to start magically losing all 8v8 (that rarley exist outside of Terms of use breaking discords) because amnesia goes to 1875 or 2000??

I mean if you wanna keep bringing up the 20 years statement, Can you compare live bard amnesia to pheonix amnesia for me?

Also how is this an arguement, are you saying that nothing should ever change? Apparently the one who has no clue isn't me... chill out homie its just a game.

And if you want to give the bard a secondary CC like healers and sorcs, then I will agree with you. Hib is the only realm where their main CC has only 1 form. So in the instant amnesia (all be it only really used to break speed cause it is on a timer) was their difference.

Again as i said before I don't care about the change, just put all amnesia the same range, 1850, 2300, 2000, 400, 1500, 750 don't care.

The people that were whining are the ones who couldn't "get away" from a fight, not the ohh noooo i got amnesiad once every 10 seconds that's how we lost that fight.

if you try to please everyone, you will only end up pleasing no one.
Sat 18 Apr 2020 8:31 PM by easytoremember
Sagz wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Apr 2020 7:33 PM
Again as i said before I don't care about the change, just put all amnesia the same range, 1850, 2300, 2000, 400, 1500, 750 don't care.
So lets set all DD to 1500 and all mez to 1500
Skalds will love that "balance"
Sun 19 Apr 2020 12:50 AM by Sagz
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Apr 2020 8:31 PM
Sagz wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Apr 2020 7:33 PM
Again as i said before I don't care about the change, just put all amnesia the same range, 1850, 2300, 2000, 400, 1500, 750 don't care.
So lets set all DD to 1500 and all mez to 1500
Skalds will love that "balance"

What are you talking about? bard/skald/minny DD are all 700

I don't think they should have changed anything, just if you are going to change the amnesia spell because it is supposedly so OP, why only change on the toon with 10 recast?

People are saying the amnesia was "OP" because spamming the back line in a fight was the issue, if that was the reason i would take the 2 sec cast spammable over the 10 sec time insta. I think the only people were complaining were the people who couldn't "avoid" or "wilson" from a fight. it is mainly a speed breaker for a bard....who doesn't have root, only 1 DD, no stun,

I am not for "class" balances, the uniqueness is what makes it fun.
Sun 19 Apr 2020 11:55 AM by Toss
Experienced twice now that Albs can cast the Castable Amnesia ON THE RUN... We got our speed ripped off several times while kiting Max speed at great distance.
Feels lovely to main a Bard where our tools get nerfed while others can straight up bugabuse
Sun 19 Apr 2020 12:03 PM by Toss
Did some smallman fighting yesterday... we were 4 vs grps of 3-6. Me playing the Bard got instantly Nearsighted on inc rendered me totally useless, right after our druid was Nearsighted. Then we got rooted. Then we were screwed.

What is the difference in 8-mans Amensia ripping speed of a 5 man group? I dont get it....

It all can be avoided if you play around hills, water, building etc and dont fight open field. So why not just leave Amnesia as it is and let Albs and Mids "Learn to play"?
Midgard f.ex have a huge upper hand if they play correctly around hills getting close up and personal real quick. Savages hitting so hard the poor Lurikeens gets deleted from the game.

We still have other broken things. Pets nuking thru walls, Gtaoe interrupting anyone and everyone in a keep rendering defensing near impossible

This Bard, Healer, Sorc debate has been going on forever.... I can really settle with nerfing Amneisa range on Bard for the sake of ripping speed. BUT!!!!!! Then you have to give Bards something else. Root or 2nd DD for example
Sun 19 Apr 2020 4:31 PM by Killaloth
Smallman fight yesterday vs mid tank grp.

Healer manages to root bard, walks away 3 steps, starts to spam amnesia on bard and supports - fight lost.

For smallman fights and 8vs8 this is not a welcome change, not even by players that have played on all 3 realms.

Zergers and people enjoying pvdoor would not benefit from the change, they play Daoc while half afk anyway.

Reading in /alliance recruitment appeals to reroll on albion was also depressing but hopefully the majority of people is now happier and just a few are silently suffering for the greater good of the server.
Sun 19 Apr 2020 4:46 PM by gotwqqd
Rov wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Apr 2020 4:15 PM
Going to get nearsighted before you can even drop speed on enemy tanks now

How long does ns take to cast?
How many units does someone move in that time?
Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:32 AM by Expfighter
Simple solution to this all, put bard amnesia back to 2300 and make it a 2.5 second castable spell

there fixed!
Mon 20 Apr 2020 7:34 AM by Sepplord
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:23 PM
And bard have no quickcast like sorc... but anyway.
sorc wins every mezzduell except bard can reach in 1500 instantmezzrange
Dumb people do dumb things

Please explain how the mezzinteraction between sorc and bard changes at all, with a reduction of the amnesia range.
Seriously, please describe the step where bard used amnesia on the sorc before being within 1850range.

This bullshit argument gets repeated here again and again, and it is just distracting from the real arguments
Mon 20 Apr 2020 7:37 AM by Sepplord
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 10:04 PM
No longer responding to anything that isn't constructive, just gonna post what i think would be a fair idea.

I think a decent idea would be for Amesia to keep 2000-2300 range but with the following adjustments.

1. It does not put you in combat/break speed ( 90% of the time this is only used in this manner to secure an unfair fight no effect on bard's role in a group)

2. it does not affect spells that are quickcasted ( there has to be some counter to the amnesia effect)

3. it does not affect spells under usage of MoC (same as number 2)

So because you need a counter to amnesia, you want to remove the only counter against quickcasting and even MoC? What the fuck?
Mon 20 Apr 2020 7:42 AM by Taniquetil
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 10:04 PM
No longer responding to anything that isn't constructive, just gonna post what i think would be a fair idea.

I think a decent idea would be for Amesia to keep 2000-2300 range but with the following adjustments.

1. It does not put you in combat/break speed ( 90% of the time this is only used in this manner to secure an unfair fight no effect on bard's role in a group)

2. it does not affect spells that are quickcasted ( there has to be some counter to the amnesia effect)

3. it does not affect spells under usage of MoC (same as number 2)

1. This is a key game mechanic for the bard, especially in a hib caster set up. If you dont have this as a hib caster, then a mid tanker will just run right in too you and wipe you 100% of the time.

2. So sorc run around with QC activated and QC mezz on inc and win every mezz battle. Lol. Come on.

3. Lol. Again, this is a smart counter, and tbh, arguably more doable from Healer/Sorc who can spam it and lock down a moc caster.

Get real
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:13 AM by Patron
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 7:34 AM
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:23 PM
And bard have no quickcast like sorc... but anyway.
sorc wins every mezzduell except bard can reach in 1500 instantmezzrange
Dumb people do dumb things

Please explain how the mezzinteraction between sorc and bard changes at all, with a reduction of the amnesia range.
Seriously, please describe the step where bard used amnesia on the sorc before being within 1850range.

This bullshit argument gets repeated here again and again, and it is just distracting from the real arguments

Here is my bullshit argument:
Scenario with nerfed range of Bardamnesia:
Bard and Sorc see each other, Sorc cast Amnesia in 2300 range, till Bard comes closer. Amnesia hit and Bard get no speed 6 to near the Sorc and he run with sprint in direction of Sorc. In 1850 Sorc start to cast a quickcast mezz, which is not able to counter with Amnesia.
The only option Bard have is to counter with instantmezz in 1500. But he cannot reach the sorc because he is too slow.

Other scenario with 2300 instant Amnesia.
Bard and Sorc see each other. Sorc cast Amnesia in 2300 range, Bard interrupts the Amnesia (i dont think a Sorc would waste a quickcast on Amnesia) and Bard stay in speedchant, till the end of the pulse. Bard near with speed 6 the Sorc. Sorc cast a quickcast mezz in 1850 range, bard permapressed instantmezz while he run with speed 6 to the sorc and is able to reach the Sorc and land the instmezz while Sorc is casting the quickcastmezz.

I hope you are not too dumb to follow my "bullshit".
Feedback and reflections are very welcome
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:17 AM by Sepplord
Patron wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:13 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 7:34 AM
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 8:23 PM
And bard have no quickcast like sorc... but anyway.
sorc wins every mezzduell except bard can reach in 1500 instantmezzrange
Dumb people do dumb things

Please explain how the mezzinteraction between sorc and bard changes at all, with a reduction of the amnesia range.
Seriously, please describe the step where bard used amnesia on the sorc before being within 1850range.

This bullshit argument gets repeated here again and again, and it is just distracting from the real arguments

Here is my bullshit argument:
Scenario with nerfed range of Bardamnesia:
Bard and Sorc see each other, Sorc cast Amnesia in 2300 range, till Bard comes closer. Amnesia hit and Bard get no speed 6 to near the Sorc and he run with sprint in direction of Sorc. In 1850 Sorc start to cast a quickcast mezz, which is not able to counter with Amnesia.
The only option Bard have is to counter with instantmezz in 1500. But he cannot reach the sorc because he is too slow.

Other scenario with 2300 instant Amnesia.
Bard and Sorc see each other. Sorc cast Amnesia in 2300 range, Bard interrupts the Amnesia (i dont think a Sorc would waste a quickcast on Amnesia) and Bard stay in speedchant, till the end of the pulse. Bard near with speed 6 the Sorc. Sorc cast a quickcast mezz in 1850 range, bard permapressed instantmezz while he run with speed 6 to the sorc and is able to reach the Sorc and land the instmezz while Sorc is casting the quickcastmezz.

I hope you are not too dumb to follow my "bullshit".
Feedback and reflections are very welcome

Ok, here's my feedback:
Amnesia stops Quickcast. So there's where your whole scenario stops making sense.
By using quickcast, all the sorc does in the scenario you proposed is increase the casttime and making it easier for the bard to hit the correct timing on their instant-amnesias

PS:
And the casted amnesia from the sorc doesn't instantly break speed either, so when the bard actually loses speed, MOST of the time, he has closed the gap already. That just as side-info though. The Main-problem with your reasoning is that amnesia stops quickcast and MOC.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:20 AM by Razur Ur
after reduce cast range from amnesia why not reduce recast from 10 sec to 5 sec? Sorc can 5 til 6 times cast amnesia in 10 sec and the bard can only 1 time use this?
sounds not rly fair for me ;-).
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:23 AM by Sepplord
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:20 AM
after reduce cast range from amnesia why not reduce recast from 10 sec to 5 sec? Sorc can 5 til 6 times cast amnesia in 10 sec and the bard can only 1 time use this?
sounds not rly fair for me ;-).

Bards have two different Amnesias, and they can cast it while they are doing other things. The sorc has to stop what they are doing and start a cast of amnesia.

I am pretty sure you already knew that, but played stupid to imply an unfairness. So...yeah...someone had to spell it out again
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:27 AM by Razur Ur
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:17 AM
Ok, here's my feedback:
Amnesia stops Quickcast. So there's where your whole scenario stops making sense.

that is not 100% correct in the most cases dont interrupt amnesia the quick cast! this is rly buggy with quick cast and succesful interrupt amnesia.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:31 AM by Sepplord
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:27 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:17 AM
Ok, here's my feedback:
Amnesia stops Quickcast. So there's where your whole scenario stops making sense.

that is not 100% correct in the most cases dont interrupt amnesia the quick cast! this is rly buggy with quick cast and succesful interrupt amnesia.

sounds like some unproven rumor, you surely can link me to your detailed bug report in the tracker, so i can read up on the matter?
AFAIK only the animationcancel isn't working, so it LOOKS like nothing got canceled if you use amnesia very late in the cast.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:34 AM by Razur Ur
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:23 AM
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:20 AM
after reduce cast range from amnesia why not reduce recast from 10 sec to 5 sec? Sorc can 5 til 6 times cast amnesia in 10 sec and the bard can only 1 time use this?
sounds not rly fair for me ;-).

Bards have two different Amnesias, and they can cast it while they are doing other things. The sorc has to stop what they are doing and start a cast of amnesia.

I am pretty sure you already knew that, but played stupid to imply an unfairness. So...yeah...someone had to spell it out again

oh you have right my bad i didnt know that bard have ae amnesia 10sec and single amnesia 5 sec. learned something again.
but i ask me why givent bard cast single amnesia with 2300 range and insta ae amnesia 2k range with 5 sec. recast? and why
cannot the bard twice chant playing how the minstrel now? :-) ask over ask but hey not long then gives only midgard vs lolbion.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:37 AM by Sepplord
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:34 AM
oh you have right my bad i didnt know that bard have ae amnesia 10sec and single amnesia 5 sec. learned something again.
but i ask me why givent bard cast single amnesia with 2300 range and insta ae amnesia 2k range with 5 sec. recast? and why
cannot the bard twice chant playing how the minstrel now? :-) ask over ask but hey not long then gives only midgard vs lolbion.

Now you are just ranting about random things, a bit off topic for this specific thread...

And since you list the recent minstrel changes and somehow believe you want that on bard too....you haven't understood that the change is a minstrel nerf... not a buff You really don't want that happening to bard.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:48 AM by Razur Ur
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:37 AM
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:34 AM
oh you have right my bad i didnt know that bard have ae amnesia 10sec and single amnesia 5 sec. learned something again.
but i ask me why givent bard cast single amnesia with 2300 range and insta ae amnesia 2k range with 5 sec. recast? and why
cannot the bard twice chant playing how the minstrel now? :-) ask over ask but hey not long then gives only midgard vs lolbion.

Now you are just ranting about random things, a bit off topic for this specific thread...

And since you list the recent minstrel changes and somehow believe you want that on bard too....you haven't understood that the change is a minstrel nerf... not a buff You really don't want that happening to bard.

rly a minstrel nerf? i see running last day enough minstrels with orange/red pets and now is easier to hold yellow pets because of second chant! and biggest nerf
is for mentalist he cant hold a orange pet now. thx for this great minstrel nerf :-). now give lesser bard and menta´s and but ok the hibzerg didnt need demezzer ;-).
Mon 20 Apr 2020 9:53 AM by Lillebror
necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 10:04 PM
No longer responding to anything that isn't constructive, just gonna post what i think would be a fair idea.

I think a decent idea would be for Amesia to keep 2000-2300 range but with the following adjustments.

1. It does not put you in combat/break speed ( 90% of the time this is only used in this manner to secure an unfair fight no effect on bard's role in a group)

2. it does not affect spells that are quickcasted ( there has to be some counter to the amnesia effect)

3. it does not affect spells under usage of MoC (same as number 2)


I agree on the speed/combat part, remove that part from instant amnesia and give bards a casted spammenble version too

While at it, another DD and make our Confuse instant.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 11:26 AM by Caemma
Lol, just lol.
I've been skipping the last 2-3 pages since there are quite a single-direction debates between people, I also agree that the bullshits are distracting for the real arguments.. but once again, what's the point of this discussion?
Cause I'm still waiting for a proper reason behind this range change from the devs/staff, cause the initial one was:
The goal is to not really affect the bard gameplay in actual fights but just to make the ability for hib to force fights closer to the other realms.
And the solution to this so called issue was already written in the subsequent phrase:
A possible alternative would have been to only make the combat flag happen when the target is below a certain range

Which would have been the most fitting solution to the "problem" that caused this whole fuss.
So, why would you change the range at all? Technical difficulties on implementing such mechanic maybe?

I'm honestly curious, truly.

______________
On a side note, I've really laughted a bit at this statement.
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 7:34 AM
Please explain how the mezzinteraction between sorc and bard changes at all, with a reduction of the amnesia range.
Seriously, please describe the step where bard used amnesia on the sorc before being within 1850range.

This bullshit argument gets repeated here again and again, and it is just distracting from the real arguments
Playing a bard at some high tier level would have helped you out on this question.
When you play a support class such Bard (yes, a CC class is a support!) your goal is not only to just deny enemies and preserve yourself... but also preserve your team mates.
Therefore YES, you will use amnesia LOT before 1850 range if you want to deny a spellcast (I.E. mezz/root) on your frontline group mates which are in front of you.
Got it now? It wasn't that hard after all!

Also, nerfing the range of amnesia to only one realm is yet another stupid choice.
You can efficently spam amnesia on a rooted bard to prevent him to demez or do anything else (HELLO MOC!?)

Please, re-think about it cause there is a simpler way to solve it and you wrote it in the first post of this thread.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 11:52 AM by Sepplord
Caemma wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 11:26 AM
Lol, just lol.
I've been skipping the last 2-3 pages since there are quite a single-direction debates between people, I also agree that the bullshits are distracting for the real arguments.. but once again, what's the point of this discussion?
Cause I'm still waiting for a proper reason behind this range change from the devs/staff, cause the initial one was:
The goal is to not really affect the bard gameplay in actual fights but just to make the ability for hib to force fights closer to the other realms.
And the solution to this so called issue was already written in the subsequent phrase:
A possible alternative would have been to only make the combat flag happen when the target is below a certain range

Which would have been the most fitting solution to the "problem" that caused this whole fuss.
So, why would you change the range at all? Technical difficulties on implementing such mechanic maybe?

I'm honestly curious, truly.

______________
On a side note, I've really laughted a bit at this statement.
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 7:34 AM
Please explain how the mezzinteraction between sorc and bard changes at all, with a reduction of the amnesia range.
Seriously, please describe the step where bard used amnesia on the sorc before being within 1850range.

This bullshit argument gets repeated here again and again, and it is just distracting from the real arguments
Playing a bard at some high tier level would have helped you out on this question.
When you play a support class such Bard (yes, a CC class is a support!) your goal is not only to just deny enemies and preserve yourself... but also preserve your team mates.
Therefore YES, you will use amnesia LOT before 1850 range if you want to deny a spellcast (I.E. mezz/root) on your frontline group mates which are in front of you.
Got it now? It wasn't that hard after all!

Also, nerfing the range of amnesia to only one realm is yet another stupid choice.
You can efficently spam amnesia on a rooted bard to prevent him to demez or do anything else (HELLO MOC!?)

Please, re-think about it cause there is a simpler way to solve it and you wrote it in the first post of this thread.

Fully agree with the first half....though i doubt that initial intent and what actually happens will be a strong argument... just look at the "intent" of the critchange that suddenly was made into a huge average-dmg nerf


I also never claimed that the change doesn't impact anything in a running fight. I specifically commented on people making the bullshit argument of bardVSsorc frontinc mezzwar. Which is not impacted and therefor a bullshit argument to make.

Why is it so hard to take a posts context into consideration?
Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:25 PM by Caemma
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 11:52 AM
Fully agree with the first half....though i doubt that initial intent and what actually happens will be a strong argument... just look at the "intent" of the critchange that suddenly was made into a huge average-dmg nerf

That's what I would like to understand: what's the point of giving a specific intent ("make the ability for hib to force fights closer to the other realms" if you end up doing the almost the opposite ("The goal is to not really affect the bard gameplay in actual fights"?


Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 11:52 AM
I also never claimed that the change doesn't impact anything in a running fight. I specifically commented on people making the bullshit argument of bardVSsorc frontinc mezzwar. Which is not impacted and therefor a bullshit argument to make.

Why is it so hard to take a posts context into consideration?

Cause it's still related,
nobody forces you to mezz the sorc as the first action of the engage, you can also wait (couple seconds) till your tanks push in and attract attention / force the sorc to take others action (which you will be denying with amnesia) before proceed with mezzing - it's actually more safer considering the range mezz difference (1500 vs 1875) - and here it is where the higher amnesia range importance come into action.
Of course there are tons of bards that doesn't even think about it, just the same as lots of healers don't use roots or sorcs doesn't use amensia at all (gg)

Also, someone before talk about insta mezzing a sorc on inc on normal engage... honestly it's quite a stupid tactic considering the mezz dumpening buff he has.
Lol

Edit:
In caster setup is even more and more important, cause you will need to interrupt clerics that usually are thousands yards away from you.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:42 PM by joshisanonymous
Patron wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:13 AM
Here is my bullshit argument:
Scenario with nerfed range of Bardamnesia:
Bard and Sorc see each other, Sorc cast Amnesia in 2300 range, till Bard comes closer. Amnesia hit and Bard get no speed 6 to near the Sorc and he run with sprint in direction of Sorc. In 1850 Sorc start to cast a quickcast mezz, which is not able to counter with Amnesia.
The only option Bard have is to counter with instantmezz in 1500. But he cannot reach the sorc because he is too slow.

Other scenario with 2300 instant Amnesia.
Bard and Sorc see each other. Sorc cast Amnesia in 2300 range, Bard interrupts the Amnesia (i dont think a Sorc would waste a quickcast on Amnesia) and Bard stay in speedchant, till the end of the pulse. Bard near with speed 6 the Sorc. Sorc cast a quickcast mezz in 1850 range, bard permapressed instantmezz while he run with speed 6 to the sorc and is able to reach the Sorc and land the instmezz while Sorc is casting the quickcastmezz.

I hope you are not too dumb to follow my "bullshit".
Feedback and reflections are very welcome

In all honesty, when do 8v8 fights ever begin with a crucial who-can-mez-first duel anyway? I don't 8man in any real sense, but I've watched plenty of videos, and I can't recall any made since like 2005 where they don't begin with each side spreading out and running back and forth before deciding how to engage.

But also, why aren't these Hib groups using the terrain? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that Albs have a huge advantage in fights that are on flat open land where range and interrupts are the only factors for getting off spells given that they often have two bolt range mezzers and an excellent >bolt range pet spammer. If I were a bard, I'd be hanging on to the edges of hills and cliffs like crazy so that my group always has a way to break LoS. Having a LoS advantage is especially useful when you have a bunch of instas at your disposal and the enemy doesn't.

Edit:
Should've read to the end, because Caemma seems to have confirmed my thought that initial engagement rarely starts with seeing who can get off the first mez before getting into range.

Caemma wrote: Cause it's still related,
nobody forces you to mezz the sorc as the first action of the engage, you can also wait (couple seconds) till your tanks push in and attract attention / force the sorc to take others action (which you will be denying with amnesia) before proceed with mezzing - it's actually more safer considering the range mezz difference (1500 vs 1875) - and here it is where the higher amnesia range importance come into action.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 3:50 PM by Caemma
I would also like to add another disadvantage for Bard amensia, and that with this change it got even more worse: Theurgs

For example a Healer can actually spam amnesia 2300 yards to full-deny a theurg, hib couldn't spam it and therefore couldn't full-deny a theurg (HEY, that's called drawback for being instant - we live with it since almost 20 years).
But now with the reduced range the above drawback gets even more problematic than how already was before.

#ChangeItBack
Mon 20 Apr 2020 6:17 PM by Expfighter
People People People let me say this AGAIN so that you ALL understand the problem here! I will use ONLY 1 word to close this Argument!

"NSTANT"

Make it castable with 2300 range, THERE FIXED AGAIN!

bards STFU before you get it changed to a castable spell
Mon 20 Apr 2020 6:31 PM by Quik
I still think the only change that needs to be made to bard insta amnesia is that it should drop bard speed instantly instead of waiting
Mon 20 Apr 2020 6:32 PM by Deekina
2000 range is still ridiculous. Playing a mini, I'm get whacked out of speed regularly by this even though I'm sprinting at top speed away from a bard and his chanter pet. All instas are powerful and for balance they cannot be ridiculous range. My stun, a powerful spell, is 700 range.

Bard range on amnesia is simple to determine. Assume bard is bolt range from a sorc and sorc begins casting amnesia on the bard. The bard runs to the sorc and tries to insta amnesia. Find the sweet spot where the bard and the sorc get their spells off at the same time. That is the range to set. I can bet it is NOT 2000 units. Otherwise kill the debate by giving all three realms the same CASTABLE amnesia.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:16 PM by Tyrlaan
Deekina wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 6:32 PM
2000 range is still ridiculous. Playing a mini, I'm get whacked out of speed regularly by this even though I'm sprinting at top speed away from a bard and his chanter pet. All instas are powerful and for balance they cannot be ridiculous range. My stun, a powerful spell, is 700 range.

You would flute mezz way before you stun.

Deekina wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 6:32 PM
Bard range on amnesia is simple to determine. Assume bard is bolt range from a sorc and sorc begins casting amnesia on the bard. The bard runs to the sorc and tries to insta amnesia. Find the sweet spot where the bard and the sorc get their spells off at the same time. That is the range to set. I can bet it is NOT 2000 units. Otherwise kill the debate by giving all three realms the same CASTABLE amnesia.

That´s a stupid scenario. If the Bard is bolt range from a Sorc, the Sorc would not cast amnesia but just mezz the Bard while keeping the 2nd demezzer (if there is any) interrupted. And the Sorc vs. Bard on inc argument is only like 10% of the picture.

And giving everybody the same castable amnesia would still leave an imbalance. Bards offer too little to run two (unlike Healers), have to expose themselves to AE mezz (unlike Sorcs) which is also their only form of ranged CC and their only other ranged interrupt (they usually don´t want to be in the 700 range to use the instant DD unless for kill stealing) and might also need to switch between songs (for endo or to pursue) which blocks casting and is the reason they got instants in the first place.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:32 PM by keen
I think the best solution was already posted somewhere here.
Have a range check on Amnesia, if range >1850. no speed dropt. If range <1850 speed drop behaviour. then range could still be 2300.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:45 PM by Tyrlaan
keen wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:32 PM
I think the best solution was already posted somewhere here.
Have a range check on Amnesia, if range >1850. no speed dropt. If range <1850 speed drop behaviour. then range could still be 2300.

While I can see why Mid tankers would love to speed 6 rush into Hib caster groups, that´s not the best solution whatsoever.
Mon 20 Apr 2020 10:34 PM by Sagz
Deekina wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 6:32 PM
2000 range is still ridiculous. Playing a mini, I'm get whacked out of speed regularly by this even though I'm sprinting at top speed away from a bard and his chanter pet. All instas are powerful and for balance they cannot be ridiculous range. My stun, a powerful spell, is 700 range.

Bard range on amnesia is simple to determine. Assume bard is bolt range from a sorc and sorc begins casting amnesia on the bard. The bard runs to the sorc and tries to insta amnesia. Find the sweet spot where the bard and the sorc get their spells off at the same time. That is the range to set. I can bet it is NOT 2000 units. Otherwise kill the debate by giving all three realms the same CASTABLE amnesia.

Umm you 're a minny? a bard is 0 threat to you.....he cannot CC you, WTF are you bitching about, if you cant dominate that group you got issues, you have enough instas and a pet to keep them occupied and go kill the chanter prob solved.

Ill say it again Bard is the ONLY main CC who has only 1 form of CC, no root, no stun, and only 1 DD. At least with a sorc, you have a root and a mezz, and a healer.....you have all 3. On top of that you can cast that 2300 amnesia 5 times for 1 bard instant. It is funny to watch someone try to cast cure NS with amnesia spammed on them from 2300 haha especially when they are rooted....

And you are the person i am speaking about, the only people whining are the ones who want to "avoid" a fight or "wilson" from a fight....
Tue 21 Apr 2020 6:04 AM by Sepplord
in those timer comparisons it is conveniently never mentioned that the healer casting 5 amnesias cans cast anything else though...
while the bard can be casting other spells and decide on the fly if something needs to be amnesiad.
And even without the bard being occupied, timing is much better on an instant, than a castable spell.

Yet, when reading this threads it is protrayed as if amnesia being instant for bards has only downsides besides the fightforcing-component.
Tue 21 Apr 2020 10:21 AM by Caemma
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Apr 2020 6:04 AM
in those timer comparisons it is conveniently never mentioned that the healer casting 5 amnesias cans cast anything else though...
while the bard can be casting other spells and decide on the fly if something needs to be amnesiad.
And even without the bard being occupied, timing is much better on an instant, than a castable spell.

Yet, when reading this threads it is protrayed as if amnesia being instant for bards has only downsides besides the fightforcing-component.
True, being it instant makes it in theory always in the right moment if used correctly (aka skill) cause if you fail you have to wait 5 or 10 seconds (i assure you it's a huge amount of time vs a body train alb group or in general for an enemy CCer free).

Still, not being able to spam it has its obvious downsides, i.e. vs caster groups you can't spam aoe amnesia as much as you want, and they probably switched to instant cause (as someone said already) bards has to switch songs for endurance during combats and dex/art doesn't reduce the chant cast time making the bard almost useless during that moments (and if you try to compare it to minstrel chant, well, bards doesn't have Flute mezz while walking, 2nd DD, an insta stun, an unstoppable pet, infinite purges, insta charm, insta confusion, and lastly chain armor --- EDIT: Now with last patch they don't even need to twist anymore... Lol).
Bloody hell, nobody seems to think about the BD that can interrupt with 2 spells every 4s and 5s while casting DDs/Roots and having a 4man pets rupting healing all around... and how can people complain so much about 2 amnesia that doesn't even rupt and with longer CDs?

Again, the purpose of this change was to avoid this 20 years old mechanic (that was never changed even on live) about "forcing fights"?
Ok, then less impacting solutions have been posted already.
Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:28 PM by Deekina
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:16 PM
That´s a stupid scenario. If the Bard is bolt range from a Sorc, the Sorc would not cast amnesia but just mezz the Bard while keeping the 2nd demezzer (if there is any) interrupted. And the Sorc vs. Bard on inc argument is only like 10% of the picture.

You don't understand. The sorc doesn't have insta mezz so it will be a short time to complete the cast. If the bard stayed at bolt range he will get mezzed, but if he runs close to the sorc he can insta amnesia if he beats the mezz casting. The trick would be to balance the range of amnesia to find the sweet spot where the sorc's spell finishes at the very same time the bard can amnesia. Or think of it another way: if the bard has a bolt range amnesia the sorc can never get the mezz off, whereas if the amnesia was 700 units then the bard always gets mezzed. There has to be a sweet spot in the middle.

Just trying to find a fair solution, so no need to be so disparaging.
Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:42 PM by Deekina
Sagz wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 10:34 PM
Umm you 're a minny? a bard is 0 threat to you.....he cannot CC you, WTF are you bitching about, if you cant dominate that group you got issues, you have enough instas and a pet to keep them occupied and go kill the chanter prob solved.

Ill say it again Bard is the ONLY main CC who has only 1 form of CC, no root, no stun, and only 1 DD. At least with a sorc, you have a root and a mezz, and a healer.....you have all 3. On top of that you can cast that 2300 amnesia 5 times for 1 bard instant. It is funny to watch someone try to cast cure NS with amnesia spammed on them from 2300 haha especially when they are rooted....

And you are the person i am speaking about, the only people whining are the ones who want to "avoid" a fight or "wilson" from a fight....

Go roll a mini and fight a bard and chanter and then report back when you get a real understanding instead of playing paper DAOC. The mini cannot match the range on the bard and once clipped from amnesia they're engaged. A good chanter will get the snare pet on the mini making it hard to close to 700 for the stun, and it doesn't matter who the mini chooses to mezz, the other one can CC the mini and game over. A pet won't help against 2 CCers. I don't mind losing 2v1 fights, but it's annoying to be forced to fight every time. Any sane player will try to avoid unfavourable or overwhelming odds. You're deranged if you are happy to be forced to fight every time.

You forget that bards offer more than CC. They have speed, heals and buffs, as well as their DD. Bards have no god given right to have 2 forms of CC, they have plenty to offer hib groups as it stands.
Thu 23 Apr 2020 7:21 PM by Caemma
Deekina wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:42 PM
Go roll a mini and fight a bard and chanter and then report back when you get a real understanding instead of playing paper DAOC. The mini cannot match the range on the bard and once clipped from amnesia they're engaged. A good chanter will get the snare pet on the mini making it hard to close to 700 for the stun, and it doesn't matter who the mini chooses to mezz, the other one can CC the mini and game over. A pet won't help against 2 CCers. I don't mind losing 2v1 fights, but it's annoying to be forced to fight every time. Any sane player will try to avoid unfavourable or overwhelming odds. You're deranged if you are happy to be forced to fight every time.

Why are we even talking about 2v1? Lol..
Anyway some pets actually would work well vs such duo (root pets, stun pets, healing pets), and you can't run away from a snare pet cause that is what is made for!
Grow you skill and find a way/monet to CC that pet before engage (hey, you can mezz walking..), but I'm sure some more experienced minst can help you out.

And the "forced to fight everytime" is a limited thought, cause it's like saying when u get perf from a stealther or mezzed from a minni that was stealthed you are "forced to fight everytime" since it came from nowhere lol!
Jeez, it's not an arena, there are risks going out in frontier, engaging a bard is one of those, same as any other danger.


Deekina wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:42 PM
You forget that bards offer more than CC. They have speed, heals and buffs, as well as their DD. Bards have no god given right to have 2 forms of CC, they have plenty to offer hib groups as it stands.
Ok(Mark Jacobs), but nobody asked for more CC, just leave as it has been at this patch.. at least on the fight side (which means deny spells to 2300 yard range).
Thu 23 Apr 2020 11:30 PM by bigne88
Deekina wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:28 PM
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:16 PM
That´s a stupid scenario. If the Bard is bolt range from a Sorc, the Sorc would not cast amnesia but just mezz the Bard while keeping the 2nd demezzer (if there is any) interrupted. And the Sorc vs. Bard on inc argument is only like 10% of the picture.

You don't understand. The sorc doesn't have insta mezz so it will be a short time to complete the cast. If the bard stayed at bolt range he will get mezzed, but if he runs close to the sorc he can insta amnesia if he beats the mezz casting. The trick would be to balance the range of amnesia to find the sweet spot where the sorc's spell finishes at the very same time the bard can amnesia. Or think of it another way: if the bard has a bolt range amnesia the sorc can never get the mezz off, whereas if the amnesia was 700 units then the bard always gets mezzed. There has to be a sweet spot in the middle.

Just trying to find a fair solution, so no need to be so disparaging.

Insta mezz a sorc. Lol.
It is like shooting your leg, with a cannon, before a marathon.
Thu 23 Apr 2020 11:31 PM by bigne88
Well, no hib party in gvg list primetyme.
Coincidences? I guess devs got their feedback.
Too early to judge, for sure. Lets see next days
Fri 24 Apr 2020 6:45 AM by Razur Ur
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 11:31 PM
Well, no hib party in gvg list primetyme.
Coincidences? I guess devs got their feedback.
Too early to judge, for sure. Lets see next days

Hibernia is gvg death ;-), another realms doing atm more fun and big
problem is you need high rr chars for competitive gvg list.
Fri 24 Apr 2020 12:29 PM by bigne88
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Apr 2020 6:45 AM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 11:31 PM
Well, no hib party in gvg list primetyme.
Coincidences? I guess devs got their feedback.
Too early to judge, for sure. Lets see next days

Hibernia is gvg death ;-), another realms doing atm more fun and big
problem is you need high rr chars for competitive gvg list.

With hp increase and free rp to pve door smasher, now is even impossibile to kill 30 random, noob, BG keeptakers, because they have loads of HP and loads of RA to dump on yourface.
Fri 24 Apr 2020 1:19 PM by Sagz
Deekina wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 12:42 PM
Sagz wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 10:34 PM
Umm you 're a minny? a bard is 0 threat to you.....he cannot CC you, WTF are you bitching about, if you cant dominate that group you got issues, you have enough instas and a pet to keep them occupied and go kill the chanter prob solved.

Ill say it again Bard is the ONLY main CC who has only 1 form of CC, no root, no stun, and only 1 DD. At least with a sorc, you have a root and a mezz, and a healer.....you have all 3. On top of that you can cast that 2300 amnesia 5 times for 1 bard instant. It is funny to watch someone try to cast cure NS with amnesia spammed on them from 2300 haha especially when they are rooted....

And you are the person i am speaking about, the only people whining are the ones who want to "avoid" a fight or "wilson" from a fight....

Go roll a mini and fight a bard and chanter and then report back when you get a real understanding instead of playing paper DAOC. The mini cannot match the range on the bard and once clipped from amnesia they're engaged. A good chanter will get the snare pet on the mini making it hard to close to 700 for the stun, and it doesn't matter who the mini chooses to mezz, the other one can CC the mini and game over. A pet won't help against 2 CCers. I don't mind losing 2v1 fights, but it's annoying to be forced to fight every time. Any sane player will try to avoid unfavourable or overwhelming odds. You're deranged if you are happy to be forced to fight every time.

You forget that bards offer more than CC. They have speed, heals and buffs, as well as their DD. Bards have no god given right to have 2 forms of CC, they have plenty to offer hib groups as it stands.

OK I will scenario it for you, even you play against 2 higher RR experienced players, it will be tough, you might die, but it wont be easy, unless you are super low RR. However, in your scenario, since you just stood there got got beat down.

after you get mezzed.......break your CC (harder now with the change that's for sure, but still can be done) put your pet on the bard he is essentially out of the fight at low RR, mezz the chanter pet (he cant demezz it), you should be able to take down the caster with your 2 DD stun and snare. Again though, the higher the RR tougher due to MOC1 for the demezz, but then he has no heals unless he cancels it after the demezz, you should still be able to kill the chanter. I do have a minny and I have done it against a bard/caster. RR makes the difference, not the 2 on 1.

Reality, if everyone is the same RR its a closer fight than you think, so obviously you just stood there and complained instead of trying.

Bottom line really is there are sooo many other issues with the game than this. its 20 years old, like it and deal with it or go make your bard/chanter duo.
Fri 24 Apr 2020 2:07 PM by Noashakra
Oh no, my OP 1vs1 class is forced to fight when I cross path with a bard. Man, you force your fight with your cheated class on every other visible soloer except the skald.
QQ more...
Sat 25 Apr 2020 11:03 PM by Bry
Revert bard amnesia nerfs. Dumb change to reduce the range of amnesia for ONLY 1 realm.
Wed 29 Apr 2020 5:47 PM by tyrantanic
2,000 range instant amnesia is fine. I would love a second instant DD though.
Sun 3 May 2020 2:44 PM by Bry
Fix bard amnesia please. Bards can do nothing against nearsight while sorcs and healers have an option. The imbalance is completely unjust. Either nerf all amnesia to 2k units and nerf nearsight range to 2k, or give bards 2300 range back.

If you aren't going to fix amnesia, then give something as compensation:
Root.
Bards still dont have root. Sorcs/healers do.
Mes reduction.
Bards are often the only demez in the group. Sorc/minst and 2 healers are standard. Give bards mez reduction buff like sorcs have.
2 songs.
Minstrels are allowed to have 2 songs (one of which is the pet charm now). Bards can play 1 song.
Skalds are allowed to use any of their chants immediately. Bards have to play a song and risk being interupted and unable to play end/speed for long periods of time.
Tue 19 May 2020 5:31 PM by Caemma
Bry wrote: ↑
Sun 3 May 2020 2:44 PM
Fix bard amnesia please. Bards can do nothing against nearsight while sorcs and healers have an option. The imbalance is completely unjust. Either nerf all amnesia to 2k units and nerf nearsight range to 2k, or give bards 2300 range back.

If you aren't going to fix amnesia, then give something as compensation:
Root.
Bards still dont have root. Sorcs/healers do.
Mes reduction.
Bards are often the only demez in the group. Sorc/minst and 2 healers are standard. Give bards mez reduction buff like sorcs have.
2 songs.
Minstrels are allowed to have 2 songs (one of which is the pet charm now). Bards can play 1 song.
Skalds are allowed to use any of their chants immediately. Bards have to play a song and risk being interupted and unable to play end/speed for long periods of time.
Seems that nobody actually care about those matters so far (or believe us..)
I don't see any discussion from staff regarding this topic saddly.

Rip Page 26
Wed 20 May 2020 6:46 PM by bluefalcon420
Lotta stupid on this forum. Not just in this post either.
Wed 20 May 2020 6:59 PM by gotwqqd
Bry wrote: ↑
Sun 3 May 2020 2:44 PM
Fix bard amnesia please. Bards can do nothing against nearsight while sorcs and healers have an option. The imbalance is completely unjust. Either nerf all amnesia to 2k units and nerf nearsight range to 2k, or give bards 2300 range back.

If you aren't going to fix amnesia, then give something as compensation:
Root.
Bards still dont have root. Sorcs/healers do.
Mes reduction.
Bards are often the only demez in the group. Sorc/minst and 2 healers are standard. Give bards mez reduction buff like sorcs have.
2 songs.
Minstrels are allowed to have 2 songs (one of which is the pet charm now). Bards can play 1 song.
Skalds are allowed to use any of their chants immediately. Bards have to play a song and risk being interupted and unable to play end/speed for long periods of time.

So you cant get inside 300 units with your insta before the perfectly timed cast goes off?
Sun 15 Nov 2020 11:29 AM by gotwqqd
Trying out a bard, just leveling now.
But considering the nerf they received and the ask for two DD as the other realm classes have fall on deaf ears.
Would it be much to ask that Bard DD increased to 1000.
It really just gives some cushion for play and in no way makes it much more potent, simply allows the class to maybe get some more damage in with skilled play.
Sun 15 Nov 2020 11:34 AM by Nando
Bards strong as shit, ask azzteq. No need to buff.
Sun 15 Nov 2020 11:56 AM by Patron
Hib, the nerfed realm!

I dont need any random player to ask, wth u are talking about...
Bards nerfed as shit, weakest CC and hib is overall the weakest realm.

Melee, Caster, CC, Heal, Support... Alb or Mid have in every Archetype stronger classes then hib.
Fact

But its ok
We have Underpopulated Bonus
Sun 15 Nov 2020 3:47 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Patron wrote: ↑
Sun 15 Nov 2020 11:56 AM
hib is overall the weakest realm.

Smoke some more crack.
Sun 15 Nov 2020 5:30 PM by Nando
Patron wrote: ↑
Sun 15 Nov 2020 11:56 AM
Hib, the nerfed realm!

I dont need any random player to ask, wth u are talking about...
Bards nerfed as shit, weakest CC and hib is overall the weakest realm.

Melee, Caster, CC, Heal, Support... Alb or Mid have in every Archetype stronger classes then hib.
Fact

But its ok
We have Underpopulated Bonus


Do u really mean it? The overpowered realm thinking they are the weakest? LOL
Sun 15 Nov 2020 7:48 PM by Patron
Overpowered... lol
Yeah its my opinion for real!

Heal-Class: Nothing beat the healer
Melee-Class: Warrior is the highest Dmg-Table, spec-advantage and Armsman with plate-armor and Polearm
Cast-Class: Wizard (custom love earth spec)
CC: Healer and Sorc
Support: Healer and Theurg
DPS: Reaver, Savage / Bersi
Pet-Class: Necro

Feel free to comment, but Hib is the most nerfed realm on Phoenix, its a fact!
Sun 15 Nov 2020 10:55 PM by Runental
Patron wrote: ↑
Sun 15 Nov 2020 7:48 PM
Overpowered... lol
Yeah its my opinion for real!

Heal-Class: Nothing beat the healer
Melee-Class: Warrior is the highest Dmg-Table, spec-advantage and Armsman with plate-armor and Polearm
Cast-Class: Wizard (custom love earth spec)
CC: Healer and Sorc
Support: Healer and Theurg
DPS: Reaver, Savage / Bersi
Pet-Class: Necro

Feel free to comment, but Hib is the most nerfed realm on Phoenix, its a fact!

What exactly did you smoke?
Sun 15 Nov 2020 11:39 PM by Patron
Any constructive post?
/serverinfo
Why so few bards if they are so op?
And every bard who play in rvr can tell about.

Play a bard seriously, then we can talk. Otherwise its just brabbling rubbish like this one liner which represent the authors mental constitution.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 12:29 AM by Gildar
Runental wrote: ↑
Sun 15 Nov 2020 10:55 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Sun 15 Nov 2020 7:48 PM
Overpowered... lol
Yeah its my opinion for real!

Heal-Class: Nothing beat the healer
Melee-Class: Warrior is the highest Dmg-Table, spec-advantage and Armsman with plate-armor and Polearm
Cast-Class: Wizard (custom love earth spec)
CC: Healer and Sorc
Support: Healer and Theurg
DPS: Reaver, Savage / Bersi
Pet-Class: Necro

Feel free to comment, but Hib is the most nerfed realm on Phoenix, its a fact!

What exactly did you smoke?

He dont smoking anything Runental ...

This evening you have seen what we on Hib have to face every day ... a nightmare of 150 albs with tons of earth wiz, reavers, sorcs and cabbys ...
You simply die by tri dots stacking ... not to mention a million necro pets in walls ... (@ Uthred :you take a screen of power rangers assist .... no screen of abomination merged in walls ?)

Hib is the realm with most nerf, and THE ONLY realm with amnesia nerfed on THE ONLY cc class we have.

I played a bard before nerf ... i use it sometimes to do flags ... with nerf amnesia bard is so underpowered that no point to play more ...

A big mistake dove by devs ... now we can only defend keeps Vs a million of alb .... and many boring only sitting in a keep waiting .... and leave also the game itself.

Bah ... albion is so disgusting with necro - sorc -ministrels-earth wiz and cabby OP or exploiting ... /clap
Mon 16 Nov 2020 4:27 AM by Hedien
I like this change. This will reduce frustration when outnumbered.
Especially for visi solo / smallman gameplay.

Sat/Faturday.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 6:23 AM by Patron
Hedien wrote: ↑
Mon 16 Nov 2020 4:27 AM
I like this change. This will reduce frustration when outnumbered.
Especially for visi solo / smallman gameplay.

Sat/Faturday.

You say, even the hibs are more, they are nerfed under the ground and thats why you feel less frustrated?
If i understand you correct, its honest but selfish.
Hello mid
Mon 16 Nov 2020 7:47 AM by Noashakra
Always funny to see albs thinking hib is OP... People are delusional in this game.
Anyway, I hate the two extremes, the bard is not unplayable, it's still strong but the amensia range 2000 is a big nerf, vs tank groups it make it really hard.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:00 AM by Stoertebecker
Gildar wrote: ↑
Mon 16 Nov 2020 12:29 AM
Runental wrote: ↑
Sun 15 Nov 2020 10:55 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Sun 15 Nov 2020 7:48 PM
Overpowered... lol
Yeah its my opinion for real!

Heal-Class: Nothing beat the healer
Melee-Class: Warrior is the highest Dmg-Table, spec-advantage and Armsman with plate-armor and Polearm
Cast-Class: Wizard (custom love earth spec)
CC: Healer and Sorc
Support: Healer and Theurg
DPS: Reaver, Savage / Bersi
Pet-Class: Necro

Feel free to comment, but Hib is the most nerfed realm on Phoenix, its a fact!

What exactly did you smoke?
Hib is the realm with most nerf, and THE ONLY realm with amnesia nerfed on THE ONLY cc class we have.

lol, i think Midgard was nerfed the most if you go from 1.65 as a base. It was already nerfed before the server started.
Mon 16 Nov 2020 9:58 AM by Nando
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:00 AM
Gildar wrote: ↑
Mon 16 Nov 2020 12:29 AM
Runental wrote: ↑
Sun 15 Nov 2020 10:55 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Sun 15 Nov 2020 7:48 PM
Overpowered... lol
Yeah its my opinion for real!

Heal-Class: Nothing beat the healer
Melee-Class: Warrior is the highest Dmg-Table, spec-advantage and Armsman with plate-armor and Polearm
Cast-Class: Wizard (custom love earth spec)
CC: Healer and Sorc
Support: Healer and Theurg
DPS: Reaver, Savage / Bersi
Pet-Class: Necro

Feel free to comment, but Hib is the most nerfed realm on Phoenix, its a fact!

What exactly did you smoke?
Hib is the realm with most nerf, and THE ONLY realm with amnesia nerfed on THE ONLY cc class we have.

lol, i think Midgard was nerfed the most if you go from 1.65 as a base. It was already nerfed before the server started.

Let them talk Runenthal, they like whinning and sitting in keeps with 20 assisting overpowrered ranger, if they sitting in the wrong keep they cry in disc and here
Tue 17 Nov 2020 4:24 AM by Hedien
Patron wrote: ↑
Mon 16 Nov 2020 6:23 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Mon 16 Nov 2020 4:27 AM
I like this change. This will reduce frustration when outnumbered.
Especially for visi solo / smallman gameplay.

Sat/Faturday.

You say, even the hibs are more, they are nerfed under the ground and thats why you feel less frustrated?
If i understand you correct, its honest but selfish.
Hello mid

Point is about perception.

Per this reply, you like to play hib as the victim while other posters think hib has an advantageous position. Typically: "the grass is greener on the other side".
When you check the poll results, bard is considered OP by most players. This tunedown is noticeable without being game-breaking.
My perception is that on sudden engage, especially with terrain, the original distance will wipe a smallman/solo vs. a fg. This is frustrating for both alb and mid.
Once the fight has started, it is not going to be the guaranteed defeat for either side with equal-ish numbers, reduced distance or not.

If it was in my hands, I would probably adjust the fact that even though you rupt them mid-cast, the spell still lands because of the cast speed / % of incantation went through. And this would see major implications and whine from all casters but reducing the frustration over the semi-broken rupting mechanism.

So all-in-all, this is pretty minor change yet positive.

Sat/Faturday.
Tue 17 Nov 2020 9:14 AM by Runental
From a Mid PoV it's funny to see how the two strongest realms complain each other over months now. Alb vs. Hib and vice versa.
While the underdog mostly just stfu and take it as it is ^^
Sun 22 Nov 2020 6:10 PM by Siouxsie
Gildar wrote: ↑
Mon 16 Nov 2020 12:29 AM
Hib is the realm with most nerf, and THE ONLY realm with amnesia nerfed on THE ONLY cc class we have.

*Laughs at you in Midgardian*
Sun 22 Nov 2020 6:12 PM by Siouxsie
Runental wrote: ↑
Sun 15 Nov 2020 10:55 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Sun 15 Nov 2020 7:48 PM
Overpowered... lol
Yeah its my opinion for real!

Heal-Class: Nothing beat the healer
Melee-Class: Warrior is the highest Dmg-Table, spec-advantage and Armsman with plate-armor and Polearm
Cast-Class: Wizard (custom love earth spec)
CC: Healer and Sorc
Support: Healer and Theurg
DPS: Reaver, Savage / Bersi
Pet-Class: Necro

Feel free to comment, but Hib is the most nerfed realm on Phoenix, its a fact!

What exactly did you smoke?

Think he's been on the Toilet Duck again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eRhWT4fYmk
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