[Q2 2020] Crit Hit Chance and Crit Damage

Started 25 Mar 2020
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12982

Critical Damage:
The critical damage as of right now is random from 10 to 50% (or 1 to 99% when in vendo), this is one of the 2 areas that still use normal rng, this will be changed to a specific amount (e. g. 30% when not in vendo and 50% when in vendo).


Critical Hit Chance:
Using the current live values for wild power and mastery of pain lead to rather non sensical 49% crit rates making crits not really anything special, especially when coupled with the wildly varying critical damage.
Wild Power and Mastery of Pain will be changed, they will see a reduction in the chance they provide but also increase the critical damage %.

The exact numbers here will be posted at a later time once some simming happened, the intention is not to really change the average damage. The general gist of it is that crits will become rarer but each individual crit will be noticable.

EDIT:
After some simming, the default critical damage will be set to 30% extra damage and for the RAs the scaling will follow that of avoidance of magic (2%, 3%, 5%, 7%, 10%, 12%, 15%,17%, 20%), each level will increase the crit chance and the crit damage by the listed percentage.
This will result in the average total damage being about 2% higher at level 9 of these RAs, less than 2% at lower levels and no change without these RAs.
Dual Threat will be reduced to 2, 3, 5, 7 and 10% and also provide an increased critical damage boost.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:49 PM by SlowMo
I didn´t feel that it needs tweaking, considering the intention is to not really change the average damage. Whats the point then?

Whats wrong with the current system?
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:49 PM by Eldoktor
This idea is nonsense either.

You gave more HP pool already

Svg already have BS %quad/triple hit chance....
And still nerf the caster that much ?


Do you plan to kill the server or what ?
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:51 PM by MrWolf
Eldoktor wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:49 PM
This idea is nonsense either.

You gave more HP pool already

Svg already have BS %quad/triple hit chance....
And still nerf the caster that much ?


Do you plan to kill the server or what ?

QQ
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:55 PM by Sathariel
Eldoktor wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:49 PM
This idea is nonsense either.

You gave more HP pool already

Svg already have BS %quad/triple hit chance....
And still nerf the caster that much ?


Do you plan to kill the server or what ?

If you read carefully, you'll understand that the average damage output will not change. Fights will be more volatile though, which I personally like.
Please make sure you understand what is written before you comment on it.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:59 PM by Ashenspire
Another alternative is to keep MoPain/Wild Power as it is, and have another 5 step talent that increases the minimum crit damage.

Ravager: increases minimum crit damage by 3/6/9/14/20%, costs 5/5/5/7/8.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:59 PM by Razur Ur
Why changes with Crit? If you want a change than plz reduce the Debuff Value from Castern and remove str/con and con debuff from castern or
or introduces banelord and CL skills for more rupt vs caster.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:00 PM by kiectred
So without MoPain crits will always be 30% extra damage? This sounds fine, as it just reduces overall variance... but you no longer get spectacular crits and you say you want them to feel more special, so that's a bit odd.

And then MoPain will increase that 30% extra damage at the expense of some of the current % increase in chance to crit? I guess I'd have to see the numbers before really having a strong opinion but this seems mostly unnecessary.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:15 PM by dougrighteous1
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:59 PM
Another alternative is to keep MoPain/Wild Power as it is, and have another 5 step talent that increases the minimum crit damage.

Ravager: increases minimum crit damage by 3/6/9/14/20%, costs 5/5/5/7/8.

o god. what a terrible idea
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:30 PM by Ashenspire
dougrighteous1 wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:15 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:59 PM
Another alternative is to keep MoPain/Wild Power as it is, and have another 5 step talent that increases the minimum crit damage.

Ravager: increases minimum crit damage by 3/6/9/14/20%, costs 5/5/5/7/8.

o god. what a terrible idea

74 RAPs to do ~20% more damage per swing isn't the craziest thing in the world. You get much better RoI on other skills as is.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:35 PM by joy
The more I look at this, the more it makes me wonder.
Isn't this just a big boost to savages, who are already totally over the top?
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:57 PM by Isavyr
Yes, this will make fights potentially more volatile. While I like the idea of special crits in a single-player RPG (I got a special crit and finished this difficult mob), I do not like it in a competitive RvR situation. Crits are a relic from DnD that don't belong in competitive PvP games as it introduces luck, an anti-competitive mechanic, to competition. They could be removed entirely and that would still be OK (zerker would instead just receive flat damage bonus, for example).
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:05 PM by Ashman
brb leveling savage
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:07 PM by Razur Ur
kiectred wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:00 PM
And then MoPain will increase that 30% extra damage at the expense of some of the current % increase in chance to crit? I guess I'd have to see the numbers before really having a strong opinion but this seems mostly unnecessary.

Nice more higher and constant dmg for caster :-/ they doing not enough dmg ^_^
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:15 PM by Sepplord
If i am understanding it right crits will be boring baseline as they are always a fixed dmg

With high MoP not much will change. Before you got loads of crits, but many were low dmg... after you will get less crits, but if you get them they qill be huge
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:59 PM by dougrighteous1
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:30 PM
dougrighteous1 wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:15 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:59 PM
Another alternative is to keep MoPain/Wild Power as it is, and have another 5 step talent that increases the minimum crit damage.

Ravager: increases minimum crit damage by 3/6/9/14/20%, costs 5/5/5/7/8.

o god. what a terrible idea

74 RAPs to do ~20% more damage per swing isn't the craziest thing in the world. You get much better RoI on other skills as is.

20% more crit damage * which equates to how much effective dps?
lets be real here. thats a terrible idea. there's so much more useful shit with actual utility
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:06 PM by sylvynyr
Why even have % chance to crit at all anymore? It's just yet another pesky RNG.

Just give everyone a static damage value for every ability any time? Yeah that's sounds awful.

Isn't a major point of RNG to make it so there's a potential for the underdog to have a chance to win from time to time?
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:19 PM by gruenesschaf
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:06 PM
Why even have % chance to crit at all anymore? It's just yet another pesky RNG.

Just give everyone a static damage value for every ability any time? Yeah that's sounds awful.

Isn't a major point of RNG to make it so there's a potential for the underdog to have a chance to win from time to time?

Which still exists with a crit chance. Some rng is not only acceptable but also desirable, however, compounding rng is something else and that is what this change is about.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:33 PM by Centenario
A few things to look out for:
- CS lines: 2-handed while stealthed crit with full mastery of pain
- Have to compare impact on LA vs DW (100% chance to lunge)
- Have to see if it can make archery feel viable
- Vendo OPness
- Crits on slow weapon balance vs quick weapons.
- What about class damage tables, doing big crits on a warrior is better than on a paladin.
- What about crit and growth rate.
- Most important of all balance between melee/archery/spells/pets/mobs:
If a spell can do 500+ damage and crit at 30% consistently, whereas a melee hit goes between 50-100 and crit between 15 and 30
In my opinion a caster can stack Mastery of Magery and Wild Power for insane DPS. Look at Hib caster groups they just stun and 2 cast any ppl down.
IMO Wild Power should be half of Mastery of Pain at minimum.
Also there should be a crit immunity of 1.5seconds after any crit to make assist focus on CC less of a Tab-1-2-3 game for casters.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:36 PM by sylvynyr
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:19 PM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:06 PM
Why even have % chance to crit at all anymore? It's just yet another pesky RNG.

Just give everyone a static damage value for every ability any time? Yeah that's sounds awful.

Isn't a major point of RNG to make it so there's a potential for the underdog to have a chance to win from time to time?

Which still exists with a crit chance. Some rng is not only acceptable but also desirable, however, compounding rng is something else and that is what this change is about.

What is so bad about compounded RNG? There is already no damage variance in styled hits here and this proposal removes damage variance in crit hits when Original DAOC Specializations were designed around minimizing variance while improving your floor/ceiling which affected both styled and crit damage. RNG damage allows lower level/geared/RR players to have a chance to compete because RNG is fair to everyone over time. This proposed system is even further from being called DAOC; its just static damage with a proc chance giving almost all the benefit to max level, fully geared, high RR players.

I dunno. Maybe I'm in the minority here and that's fine; I can accept that. I came here to play DAOC and I've definitely gotten much fun and entertainment out of it. The QOL adjustments have been great for reducing menial timesinks like crafting and traveling, but fundamental mechanic changes to me are killing the spirit of calling this DAOC.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:08 PM by Killaloth
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:40 PM
Critical Damage:
The critical damage as of right now is random from 10 to 50% (or 1 to 99% when in vendo), this is one of the 2 areas that still use normal rng, this will be changed to a specific amount (e. g. 30% when not in vendo and 50% when in vendo).

30% flat is fine. Right now after 1 billion crits the average crit value is still 30% of base damage anyway.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:40 PM
Wild Power and Mastery of Pain will be changed, they will see a reduction in the chance they provide but also increase the critical damage %.

The exact numbers here will be posted at a later time once some simming happened, the intention is not to really change the average damage. The general gist of it is that crits will become rarer but each individual crit will be noticable.

Seems to contradict the first paragraph.

Crit % value has to be more than 30% to compensate for a lower chance to crit.


Right now, WP9/MoP9 simplified average over 100 hits, base value 100, crit chance 49%, average value 30%:

51 x 100 no crits
49 x (100 + 30) with crit
11470 total damage

New system example, WP9/MoP9 average over 100 hits, base value 100, crit chance 37%, average value 40%:
63 x 100 no crits
37 x (100 + 40) with crit
11480 total damage

Something like this?
Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:32 PM by jwalker
I don't really understand the motivation of this change

In Phoenix we took out the melee varriance and took the average. Currently only the crits add a bit of varriance and I was already wondering why the devs did not decided to just make crits to 30% (average) extra damage all the time. You still have a random chance of when the crits happen, but with higher mop the crits become regular and the varriance is low again.

Now we reinvent the crit system to introduce a HIGH varriance mechanic, in that you will have a low chance to crit but if you do its big.

This to me is a contradiction to the original melee changes. In live daoc you can swing for damage and on the next hit you swing for maximum and crit. Its very random and fights have a high portion of luck involved. Here they took out this luck and made it average. But with the crit mechanic they reintroduce the high luck component again? Is that smart? And if you just do all crits do flat 30% and leave the chances like now, you will still notice the crits, its just these 10-15% crits currently that you barely notice.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:14 PM by Ashenspire
dougrighteous1 wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:59 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:30 PM
dougrighteous1 wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:15 PM
o god. what a terrible idea

74 RAPs to do ~20% more damage per swing isn't the craziest thing in the world. You get much better RoI on other skills as is.

20% more crit damage * which equates to how much effective dps?
lets be real here. thats a terrible idea. there's so much more useful shit with actual utility

No, just an average of 20% more damage per swing.

If crits are 10-50%, then you average 30%. If they're 30-50%, that's 40% per swing.

As it stands, MoP9 is 100% damage, 51% of the time. And 130% damage 49% of the time. So over time it'd equate to ~114.7% damage per swing. If there was a separate RA to increase base crit damage up to 30%, that'd be 100% damage 51% of the time, and 140% damage 49% of the time, which would be 119.6% damage per swing. An extra 5% damage for additional 30 RAPs isn't that big of a deal.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:26 PM by Svekt
RIP Phoenix
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:04 PM by easytoremember
Burst damage potential drops~ you lose chance to kill someone before insta-heal IP LC SF pot etc
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:33 PM by gruenesschaf
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:36 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:19 PM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:06 PM
Why even have % chance to crit at all anymore? It's just yet another pesky RNG.

Just give everyone a static damage value for every ability any time? Yeah that's sounds awful.

Isn't a major point of RNG to make it so there's a potential for the underdog to have a chance to win from time to time?

Which still exists with a crit chance. Some rng is not only acceptable but also desirable, however, compounding rng is something else and that is what this change is about.

What is so bad about compounded RNG? There is already no damage variance in styled hits here and this proposal removes damage variance in crit hits when Original DAOC Specializations were designed around minimizing variance while improving your floor/ceiling which affected both styled and crit damage. RNG damage allows lower level/geared/RR players to have a chance to compete because RNG is fair to everyone over time. This proposed system is even further from being called DAOC; its just static damage with a proc chance giving almost all the benefit to max level, fully geared, high RR players.

I dunno. Maybe I'm in the minority here and that's fine; I can accept that. I came here to play DAOC and I've definitely gotten much fun and entertainment out of it. The QOL adjustments have been great for reducing menial timesinks like crafting and traveling, but fundamental mechanic changes to me are killing the spirit of calling this DAOC.

Spec did not change damage variance, which is a common misconception and why the melee variance makes no sense in the first place. If it did work like you said (and many people assume) that spec influences variance, like it is the case for cast damage, it would have merit but it's literally just a random 50 in the melee formula that is changed by nothing.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:38 PM by sylvynyr
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:33 PM
Spec did not change damage variance, which is a common misconception and why the melee variance makes no sense in the first place. If it did work like you said (and many people assume) that spec influences variance, like it is the case for cast damage, it would have merit but it's literally just a random 50 in the melee formula that is changed by nothing.

So this is not correct?

https://web.archive.org/web/20040608092009/http://www.camelotherald.com/more/474.shtml

I've Got That Grab Bag Feeling
Posted By: Sanya Thomas

2002-08-30 19:22:32

Q: I am level 40. I have Celtic Dual specced to 39, and Blades to 21. I’m seeing seriously conflicting answers as to whether or not I should take the blade spec higher. What is optimal?

A: Well, that depends on what type of character you want to play, but I do understand what you’re getting at. Just as the game assumes that characters past level 30 have gone to the trouble of enchanting their armor and weapons (covered in an old grab bag, that), the PVE game assumes a certain level of proficiency with your weapon.

First, I’m going to answer in a general way, applicable to all classes who can spec in their weapon. This formula doesn’t take styles into account at all (as in, most people only spec up to the style they like best and then stop), it’s simple math that determines the damage you will do.

If you have NO trains in your weapon at all, each swing may do 25% to 125% of X in damage. X is equal to the result of a complex formula, taking into account weapon quality, condition, bonuses, your strength or dex, the opponent’s armor, and some other things.

If you have trained up to 2/3 of your level in your weapon, each swing may do 75% to 125% of X.

If you are trained up to your level, each swing may do 100% to 150% of X.

The optimum level as far as the game is concerned is 2/3 your level.

For YOU, Mr. Blademaster, the game takes an average of Celtic Dual and your weapon spec. And since you are 40th, and your average spec in the two areas is 30, you are currently running better than optimal.
Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:01 PM by gruenesschaf
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:38 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:33 PM
Spec did not change damage variance, which is a common misconception and why the melee variance makes no sense in the first place. If it did work like you said (and many people assume) that spec influences variance, like it is the case for cast damage, it would have merit but it's literally just a random 50 in the melee formula that is changed by nothing.

So this is not correct?


It is mostly correct, however 25 - 125 is wrong and should be 25 to 75 but notice how there is always this 50% variance, that's the variance which is just a random(50) which has been replaced with a fixed 25
Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:04 PM by Daoc_1
I noticed that my Crit damage from shooting my Bow has dropped tremendously. Is it because of this change ? It now takes 3 shots to get through player casted Buffs. Depressing. ;(
Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:26 PM by The Skies Asunder
I preferred the Live random 50 on melee attacks to the fixed values here. I wouldn't have any issue reducing the critical chance, as 49% is just silly, but I don't particularly enjoy this idea.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 12:12 AM by sylvynyr
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:01 PM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:38 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:33 PM
Spec did not change damage variance, which is a common misconception and why the melee variance makes no sense in the first place. If it did work like you said (and many people assume) that spec influences variance, like it is the case for cast damage, it would have merit but it's literally just a random 50 in the melee formula that is changed by nothing.

So this is not correct?


It is mostly correct, however 25 - 125 is wrong and should be 25 to 75 but notice how there is always this 50% variance, that's the variance which is just a random(50) which has been replaced with a fixed 25

Perhaps, but average damage also increases by 25% between 2/3 of level to 1:1 level, so while the variance could very well have stayed with a 50% range, the floor rises to 100% and ceiling to 150% with spec according to that post. Is that being considered here? Initial tests didn't seem to show the 25% increase across spec. Seems like it was a similar implementation to the magic 25% overspec bonus.

Could this possible missing 25% average melee spec damage bonus be attributed the perceived melee damage issues and even archery damage issues since it should also in principle follow the same design?
Thu 26 Mar 2020 12:22 AM by gruenesschaf
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 12:12 AM
Perhaps, but average damage also increases by 25% between 2/3 of level to 1:1 level, so while the variance could very well have stayed with a 50% range, the floor rises to 100% and ceiling to 150% with spec according to that post. Is that being considered here? Initial tests didn't seem to show the 25% increase across spec. Seems like it was a similar implementation to the magic 25% overspec bonus.

Could this possible missing 25% average melee spec damage bonus be attributed the perceived melee damage issues and even archery damage issues since it should also in principle follow the same design?

There is no melee damage issue in terms of the damage being wrong for the given stats. There have been numerous tests on pendragon with thousands of swings of damage which all fall within +-2 min / max damage of what our formula has as output for many class / weapon / spec and target / armor combinations when variance were enabled.
E. g. given that the variance is a random 50 that means there are up to 50 different damage values possible on live for every swing against the same target (assuming the hit is high enough to have such a variance, obviously a hit for 15 - 25 would not have 50 different values and accounting for changing weapon condition by either always repairing or using 70% con weapons). The highest and lowest of those 50 observed values fall within +- 2 damage of what our formula outputs at variance 50 or 0 given the same stats etc.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 12:41 AM by gruenesschaf
Killaloth wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:08 PM
Right now, WP9/MoP9 simplified average over 100 hits, base value 100, crit chance 49%, average value 30%:

51 x 100 no crits
49 x (100 + 30) with crit
11470 total damage

New system example, WP9/MoP9 average over 100 hits, base value 100, crit chance 37%, average value 40%:
63 x 100 no crits
37 x (100 + 40) with crit
11480 total damage

Something like this?

Yep but the 40% average in your example of the new system would not only be the average value but the 40% extra damage is exactly what every single crit would do.

So instead of
100 crit 20
100 crit 10
100 crit 20
100 crit 50
100 crit 50

it would become (assuming 30% crit damage, e. g. no mopain/wp)
100 crit 30
100 crit 30
100 crit 30
100 crit 30
100 crit 30
Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:31 AM by sylvynyr
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 12:22 AM
There is no melee damage issue in terms of the damage being wrong for the given stats. There have been numerous tests on pendragon with thousands of swings of damage which all fall within +-2 min / max damage of what our formula has as output for many class / weapon / spec and target / armor combinations when variance were enabled.
E. g. given that the variance is a random 50 that means there are up to 50 different damage values possible on live for every swing against the same target (assuming the hit is high enough to have such a variance, obviously a hit for 15 - 25 would not have 50 different values and accounting for changing weapon condition by either always repairing or using 70% con weapons). The highest and lowest of those 50 observed values fall within +- 2 damage of what our formula outputs at variance 50 or 0 given the same stats etc.

RNG != Variance

The RNG chooses a value within the variance range that is defined by spec. Phoenix chooses to use a static value instead of RNG for the damage calculation.

Looking back over data from hitting the test dummies here at each level of spec seems to show the actual damage accurately normalizing under the assumption the minimum overall damage variance rises from 25% to 100% as expected, but the max overall variance seems static at 125% on Phoenix instead of rising to 150% starting at 2/3 level composite spec as described in the official Grab Bag.

So its not a 25% discrepancy, but more like 12%.

This of course based on the assumption that Mythic was being forthcoming back in 2002 when they explained how spec affected your actual damage variance range (not to be confused with the specific RNG in the damage formula). With the understanding that the specific variance in the formula is actually an RNG and a value of 25% is used here, but the resulting total damage variance on Phoenix (when averaged) follows the expected trend of rising floor with spec reducing the assumed actual damage variance range; the damage normalization does match on Phoenix up until around 34 composite spec (2/3 level at 50).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JrVFrHWe--XjzIL2WsDve0wTBf6r1plG6IFzMoPWGf0/edit?usp=sharing

Phoenix:
18 composite spec = 51% - 125% = 88% average
33 composite spec = 73% - 125% = 99% average
34 composite spec = 75% - 125% = 100% average
50 composite spec = 100% - 125% = 113% average

Expected:
18 composite spec = 51% - 125% = 88% average
33 composite spec = 73% - 125% = 99% average
34 composite spec = 75% - 126% = 101% average
50 composite spec = 100% - 150% = 125% average

Spec doesn't specifically affect the RNG variable in the damage formula, but spec does affect the overall damage variance even when considering the static 25% in place of RNG used on this server. The melee damage on Phoenix doesn't match the variance expectation that Mythic described; melee (including archery) is experiencing a deficit of up to 12% damage at level 50 with composite spec 50.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 10:44 AM by gruenesschaf
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:31 AM
Spec doesn't specifically affect the RNG variable in the damage formula, but spec does affect the overall damage variance even when considering the static 25% in place of RNG used on this server. The melee damage on Phoenix doesn't match the variance expectation that Mythic described; melee (including archery) is experiencing a deficit of up to 12% damage at level 50 with composite spec 50.

Grab bags are meant to answer player questions in an understandable way, they are mostly somewhat accurate but often simplify things or are just plain wrong, in this case it's mostly correct but due to some simplification it got wrong.
Again, actual damage tests match the formula output.

This here is the part of the damage modifier formula that takes spec and the variance into account, it's a multiplier:
(0.75 + 0.5 * MIN(ENEMY_LEVEL + 1, SPEC - 1) / (ENEMY_LEVEL + 1) + 0.01 * RANDOM(50))

That means the possible values for this multiplier (between comp spec 1 and comp spec 52 against a level 50 opponent) range from 0.75 to 1.75 on pend with each spec having a variance of 0.5, e. g. at spec 1 the actual possible values are 0.75 - 1.25 and at 52 spec it will be 1.25 - 1.75. Here the multiplier ranges from 1 - 1.5 here but at any given spec it always has the average as we don't have the random variance, at spec 1 that means it will always be a multiplier of 1 and at 52 spec it will always be a multiplier of 1.5.
These damage ranges could also be phrased as dealing 75% - 175% damage or 100 - 150%.

In any case, the average damage is the same for all spec levels between pend and here, on live you have low and high swings here you always hit the average.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:30 PM by sylvynyr
Perhaps, but one of the original class developers also confirmed the overall variance ranges.

It still seems like something else is missing since Phoenix damage actually follows the trend mathematically as you increase spec averaging the increasing the floor from 25% to 100%, but maintaining a 125% ceiling which effectively shows an average from 75% at 1 spec up to 100% at 2/3's level spec, but then only reaches 113% at 52 spec instead of the expected 125%.

Albeit testing on the official servers may have shown an effective variance cap of 141% at 51 composite for some reason, but even so, that denotes an average of 121% which is still 8% higher than Phoenix.
Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:48 PM by joshisanonymous
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:40 PM
Critical Hit Chance:
Using the current live values for wild power and mastery of pain lead to rather non sensical 49% crit rates making crits not really anything special, especially when coupled with the wildly varying critical damage.
Wild Power and Mastery of Pain will be changed, they will see a reduction in the chance they provide but also increase the critical damage %.

Couple questions/concerns come to mind:
[list=]
  • Are there really a lot of people spending 34 realm points in WP/MoP? That's quite of a bit to spend in one line that leaves every non-crit more mediocre than it could be.
  • Relatedly, I hope this is about making the diminishing returns on investment even more diminishing. As is, the first couple of points in WP/MoP feel almost wasted for how little they affect your crit chance.
  • How will you account for the fact that you don't normally get 100 hits in a row on a target in a fight? What I mean is, in maybe most cases, for casters at least, you're doing good if you can get off 4 nukes in a row. If your crit chance is lower, then more often than not, those 4 nukes will not be crits, and when they crits, they'll never be as big as they can currently be, even if they'll also never be as small. So if I'm running around with a little RR4 caster that picked up WP3, and I manage to get a good position on a target, I currently have an okay chance to crit, so maybe I'll get off 2 crits and 2 non-crits, and maybe I'm lucky and those 2 crits are 45% extra damage, that means I did a decent amount of damage. On the other hand, after the changes, if my crit rate was a bit lower with WP3, and I got off 1 crit and 3 non-crits, and that one was 30% extra damage because there's no other possibility, then I did much less damage than in the first scenario. Of course, the first scenario could end up being that my crits hit for 5% extra damage, too, but at low RRs, those times when everything aligns can be lifesavers that you would never have with the suggested changes. So, ultimately, what I'm asking is, will this be balanced on the idea that people only get a few attacks in a row on any given target or on some impossible scenario where you can hit someone 100 times in a row?
    • are[/list]
    Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:06 PM by gruenesschaf
    sylvynyr wrote: ↑
    Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:30 PM
    Perhaps, but one of the original class developers also confirmed the overall variance ranges.

    It still seems like something else is missing since Phoenix damage actually follows the trend mathematically as you increase spec averaging the increasing the floor from 25% to 100%, but maintaining a 125% ceiling which effectively shows an average from 75% at 1 spec up to 100% at 2/3's level spec, but then only reaches 113% at 52 spec instead of the expected 125%.

    Albeit testing on the official servers may have shown an effective variance cap of 141% at 51 composite for some reason, but even so, that denotes an average of 121% which is still 8% higher than Phoenix.

    Again, observed values on pendragon match the formula output, which in turn means that the average damage given the same stats / armor values is the same.

    Given something that is testable, I really don't care what they write if it doesn't match the observed values ingame. When it comes to that it's like the proclaimed hard cast cap of 2 seconds which was for the longest somewhere on their official page but was at no point ever in the game.

    And where do you even get the 113%? Are you completely missing the point that it's _always_ "125%" here for 52 spec against level 50 opponents whereas on pend it would be random between 100 and 150. In your spreadsheet you have "AVG variance" for the phoenix side, which is entirely pointless given that there is zero variance here, it's always a fixed value which corresponds to the avg variance on your "daoc expected" side.
    Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:57 PM by sylvynyr
    gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
    Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:06 PM
    And where do you even get the 113%? Are you completely missing the point that it's _always_ "125%" here for 52 spec against level 50 opponents whereas on pend it would be random between 100 and 150. In your spreadsheet you have "AVG variance" for the phoenix side, which is entirely pointless given that there is zero variance here, it's always a fixed value which corresponds to the avg variance on your "daoc expected" side.

    Again, the RNG is not variance; it is a proportional factor to calculate a value within the variance range. Phoenix uses the exact average RNG of the 0-50 range, and since/if this is the only variable in the damage equation, the randomness factor should always results in the average value within any given overall variance range on Phoenix.

    0 RNG = bottom of the variance range
    25 RNG = middle of the variance range
    50 RNG = top of the variance range

    The AVG Variance in the sheet is simply used to calculate a normalized damage value across all spec; normalized value should be the same across the entire spectrum, just like they described in the Grab Bag.

    Spec Min (1) = 25-125% of X
    Spec 2/3 (33-34) = 75-125% of X
    Spec Full (50-52) = 100-150% of X

    The normalized value in the sheet is X.
    X = 100% damage
    The AVG variance is used to figure out X.
    The Min/Max variance is used to figure out the AVG.

    The math trends as expected from spec 1 to 2/3 level spec (33/34) when the actual damage reaches the normalized value indicating the 100% damage value.

    The only way to make X equivalent across all spec values on Phoenix is to limit the Max Variance to 125% which by your own admission should be 150% given a minimum variance of 100% at composite spec 52 to provide the 125% average expected. The average of 100-125% = 113%.

    I added variables to the variance equations to play around with various spec caps (for any level now and up to 52) and variance caps (such as the 141% at 51 compspec as detailed in many historical tests) and the trend stays identical; Phoenix damage doesn't appear to scale as expected over 2/3 spec.

    Given 52 composite spec on Phoenix, damage should be 125%
    So at 2/3 level spec (~34) spec should be 75-125%, giving us 100%.

    At 34 (and 35) spec, I hit for 47 which should equate to 100%
    At 52 spec, I hit for 53 which should be 125%

    But since 47 * 125% = 58, why did I hit for 53 which is ~10% less damage than expected?
    Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:16 PM by gruenesschaf
    sylvynyr wrote: ↑
    Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:57 PM
    gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
    Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:06 PM
    And where do you even get the 113%? Are you completely missing the point that it's _always_ "125%" here for 52 spec against level 50 opponents whereas on pend it would be random between 100 and 150. In your spreadsheet you have "AVG variance" for the phoenix side, which is entirely pointless given that there is zero variance here, it's always a fixed value which corresponds to the avg variance on your "daoc expected" side.

    Again, the RNG is not variance; it is a proportional factor to calculate a value within the variance range. Phoenix uses the exact average RNG of the 0-50 range, and since/if this is the only variable in the damage equation, the randomness factor should always results in the average value within any given overall variance range on Phoenix.

    Which is the case. The variance removal changed random 50 to a fixed value of 25, always. Every single hit you do here under the same conditions does the exact same average damage as it would be the case on pend, just that here you need a single hit to get the average (as every single hit is exactly the average) and on pend you need thousands of hits under the same conditions to have the average, but in the end given the same conditions the average hit would still be the same.

    The grab bag is trying to explain how things work on live servers, anything in a grab bag that doesn't match what actually happens there is just wrong, that could be because of oversimplification or just something lost between pr and dev talk, anyways, given the same conditions our formula matches the values observed on pend for all specs making any kind of claim about missing damage scaling just wrong when citing a grab bag as a grab bag should only be used as a source of truth if it can no longer be tested.
    Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:40 PM by easytoremember
    joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
    Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:48 PM
    Couple questions/concerns come to mind:
    [list=]
  • Are there really a lot of people spending 34 realm points in WP/MoP? That's quite of a bit to spend in one line that leaves every non-crit more mediocre than it could be.
    • When you're only landing a few hits one big crit is more valuable than a bunch of slightly augmented hits
    Are people throwing 34 points into crit? Yes
    Is it worth it? Yes. It's also why it's being nerfed. On paper a garunteed 30 damage roll crit is identical to variable 10-50 crits, but in terms of using it in a fight they are not equal at all.

    Damage potential per swing/cast drops 20% with the proposed change. I'm much happier with the "risk" of 10-29 rolls in exchange for the chance at 31-50
    Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:29 PM by Centenario
    Personally I would prefer to have variance on both hits and crits, I don't like to see constant numbers, it feels bad.
    The only up-side I see is that you can see right away if you do more or less damage on a target and guess why; whereas with the variance you need to give it a few hits before you can make conclusions.

    I think all melee character should get crit of 25% to 50%, Vendo can have flat 75%, archer classes should have 25% to 75%, caster should have flat 25%, maybe a special case for friar who can also get 25% to 75% of damage cause he attacks super fast.

    I could even see wild power being 5 points for 5% crit for casters, but limit it to flat 25%

    I like the idea of variance for crit cause sometimes your hit just go through the armor at the right place, and they can do a lot of damage, they can go through the armor at the wrong place, still do some extra damage but not at the best possible place.

    Another possibility is to say that if it hits the chest or helmet armor the crit will be a max variance, legs or arms are a average variance and boots/gloves are minimum variance, so leaving only 3 possibilities:
    Melee=
    helmet/chest =>60% crit
    arms/legs => 40% crit
    gloves/boots => 20% crit

    Archer/Friar=
    Helmet/chest => 75% crit
    Arms/legs => 50% crit
    gloves/boots => 25% crit

    Vendo = flat 75% crit

    Mage = flat 25% crit

    We already know that chance to hit armor are also % and are not even, would have to do some testing to see the correct crit variance values.

    I didnt do any calculation for these values so they are most likely wrong, but you get the idea!
    Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:03 AM by gotwqqd
    Centenario wrote: ↑
    Thu 26 Mar 2020 8:29 PM
    Personally I would prefer to have variance on both hits and crits, I don't like to see constant numbers, it feels bad.
    The only up-side I see is that you can see right away if you do more or less damage on a target and guess why; whereas with the variance you need to give it a few hits before you can make conclusions.

    I think all melee character should get crit of 25% to 50%, Vendo can have flat 75%, archer classes should have 25% to 75%, caster should have flat 25%, maybe a special case for friar who can also get 25% to 75% of damage cause he attacks super fast.

    I could even see wild power being 5 points for 5% crit for casters, but limit it to flat 25%

    I like the idea of variance for crit cause sometimes your hit just go through the armor at the right place, and they can do a lot of damage, they can go through the armor at the wrong place, still do some extra damage but not at the best possible place.

    Another possibility is to say that if it hits the chest or helmet armor the crit will be a max variance, legs or arms are a average variance and boots/gloves are minimum variance, so leaving only 3 possibilities:
    Melee=
    helmet/chest =>60% crit
    arms/legs => 40% crit
    gloves/boots => 20% crit

    Archer/Friar=
    Helmet/chest => 75% crit
    Arms/legs => 50% crit
    gloves/boots => 25% crit

    Vendo = flat 75% crit

    Mage = flat 25% crit

    We already know that chance to hit armor are also % and are not even, would have to do some testing to see the correct crit variance values.

    I didnt do any calculation for these values so they are most likely wrong, but you get the idea!
    I agree totally
    Problem is the elitist players can’t live with the issue of “played perfectly” yet still losing
    Sun 29 Mar 2020 2:41 PM by bigne88
    Another custom change.

    Where are we going?
    Sun 29 Mar 2020 6:39 PM by Enyore
    I worry that this is change just for the sake of change.... What exactly are you trying to accomplish by this change??? I have read the post but i dont understand it.

    The current system is commonly known by most players, this will just reset the meta tweaking process and we all know who will benefit the most from such.
    Sun 29 Mar 2020 6:51 PM by Quathan
    I do not like the idea of locked crit dmg values... I think it's one of the fun things in roleplaying games.
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 6:34 AM by Patron
    Caster should have critpotential of 150 %...
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 8:36 AM by MrWolf
    Patron wrote: ↑
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 6:34 AM
    Caster should have critpotential of 150 %...

    why not 1500%?
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 8:49 AM by Patron
    Because mages are clothwearer, so easy to kill. They should be glasscannons. But at now, they are just glass without any, or low killpotencial.
    3k hp of mellee and 700 hp healpotential, need a castdmg what is worth to play a caster.
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 9:00 AM by MrWolf
    Patron wrote: ↑
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 8:49 AM
    Because mages are clothwearer, so easy to kill. They should be glasscannons. But at now, they are just glass without any, or low killpotencial.
    3k hp of mellee and 700 hp healpotential, need a castdmg what is worth to play a caster.

    EL O EL

    what game are you playing? sure DAOC?
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 9:14 AM by Patron
    Thanks for your arguments and contribution.
    Why a player should play a casterclass but mellee´s do nearly similiar damage, have much more hp and are better armored?
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:24 PM by Centenario
    Patron wrote: ↑
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 9:14 AM
    Thanks for your arguments and contribution.
    Why a player should play a casterclass but mellee´s do nearly similiar damage, have much more hp and are better armored?

    Caster is ez-mode in DAoC 1.65 they 3shots any player wit 2-3s cast time from range.
    Melee has to come to caster/heals; has to go through mezz and root and snare and then will almost never 3-shot any player with 2-3s swing time.

    Which is why a caster does not need critical strike at all IMO, but i am willing to give concessions and i will suggest a flat 25% critdmg just for caster and max crit chance of 25% as well.
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:31 PM by Patron
    Centenario wrote: ↑
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:24 PM
    Caster is ez-mode in DAoC 1.65 they 3shots any player wit 2-3s cast time from range.
    Melee has to come to caster/heals; has to go through mezz and root and snare and then will neer 3-shot any player with 2-3s swing time.

    Which is why a caster does not need critical strike at all IMO, but i am willing to give concessions and i will suggest a flat 25% rate just for caster and max crit chance of 25% as well.

    Ah 1.65... so you not talking about Phoenix it seems. Dont missunderstand me, i hate patchdogmatic and specially 1.65 is the king of garbage!
    But Phoenix is not compareable with any patchpoints. Phoenix going their own way with courage and i like it very much.
    Im just in doubt and worried about some of the newest changes. But anyway, we´re just blowing bubbles in the wind.

    I dont want to waste my time with this forum full of "victims/Opfer" and other idiots (Centenario not included, because you argueing), which just want to troll and insulting under the eye´s of the staff.
    Peace out
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 2:18 PM by Razur Ur
    Patron wrote: ↑
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:31 PM
    Centenario wrote: ↑
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:24 PM
    Caster is ez-mode in DAoC 1.65 they 3shots any player wit 2-3s cast time from range.
    Melee has to come to caster/heals; has to go through mezz and root and snare and then will neer 3-shot any player with 2-3s swing time.

    Which is why a caster does not need critical strike at all IMO, but i am willing to give concessions and i will suggest a flat 25% rate just for caster and max crit chance of 25% as well.

    Ah 1.65... so you not talking about Phoenix it seems. Dont missunderstand me, i hate patchdogmatic and specially 1.65 is the king of garbage!
    But Phoenix is not compareable with any patchpoints. Phoenix going their own way with courage and i like it very much.
    Im just in doubt and worried about some of the newest changes. But anyway, we´re just blowing bubbles in the wind.

    I dont want to waste my time with this forum full of "victims/Opfer" and other idiots (Centenario not included, because you argueing), which just want to troll and insulting under the eye´s of the staff.
    Peace out

    OP is specially the alb caster groups 4 or 5 times ichor reset root timer, alone this is a rly critical moment for hib tank push groups in hib if you compare with
    hib caster groups have they a biggest disadvantage because of useless caster stun on openfield and only chars where can root is two droods and they need
    now that ichor was used from a caster mate. Most time of fight i get mezz root, ichor, root, mezz, root, ichor, root etc..
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 2:55 PM by Cadebrennus
    Patron wrote: ↑
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 8:49 AM
    Because mages are clothwearer, so easy to kill. They should be glasscannons. But at now, they are just glass without any, or low killpotencial.
    3k hp of mellee and 700 hp healpotential, need a castdmg what is worth to play a caster.

    Real glass cannons wouldn't have PD.

    No.
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 8:53 AM by MacPrior
    gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
    Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:40 PM
    This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12982

    Critical Damage:
    The critical damage as of right now is random from 10 to 50% (or 1 to 99% when in vendo), this is one of the 2 areas that still use normal rng, this will be changed to a specific amount (e. g. 30% when not in vendo and 50% when in vendo).


    Critical Hit Chance:
    Using the current live values for wild power and mastery of pain lead to rather non sensical 49% crit rates making crits not really anything special, especially when coupled with the wildly varying critical damage.
    Wild Power and Mastery of Pain will be changed, they will see a reduction in the chance they provide but also increase the critical damage %.

    The exact numbers here will be posted at a later time once some simming happened, the intention is not to really change the average damage. The general gist of it is that crits will become rarer but each individual crit will be noticable.

    EDIT:
    After some simming, the default critical damage will be set to 30% extra damage and for the RAs the scaling will follow that of avoidance of magic (2%, 3%, 5%, 7%, 10%, 12%, 15%,17%, 20%), each level will increase the crit chance and the crit damage by the listed percentage.
    This will result in the average total damage being about 2% higher at level 9 of these RAs, less than 2% at lower levels and no change without these RAs.
    Dual Threat will be reduced to 2, 3, 5, 7 and 10% and also provide an increased critical damage boost.

    2 % more damage in average and you have to spend 34 Traning Points for that? Really???
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 9:00 AM by gotwqqd
    Talk about ruining dual threat
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 9:28 AM by Razur Ur
    I understand right? that i skill avoid magic than i get higher critical chance with meele? and if a champ/thane skilled dual thread he can get 30+10% = 40% crit dmg?
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 1:36 PM by bigne88
    Centenario wrote: ↑
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:24 PM
    Patron wrote: ↑
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 9:14 AM
    Thanks for your arguments and contribution.
    Why a player should play a casterclass but mellee´s do nearly similiar damage, have much more hp and are better armored?

    Caster is ez-mode in DAoC 1.65 they 3shots any player wit 2-3s cast time from range.
    Melee has to come to caster/heals; has to go through mezz and root and snare and then will almost never 3-shot any player with 2-3s swing time.

    Which is why a caster does not need critical strike at all IMO, but i am willing to give concessions and i will suggest a flat 25% critdmg just for caster and max crit chance of 25% as well.

    Seems to me that you, sir, are pretty uneducated about daoc.

    SoS every 10 minutes and is hard for a melee to reach a caster? Free rps that made every tank a det 9 machine with purge 3.
    Thanks are 3k unbuffed pile of hp that can 2/3 shot a caster.
    This is the reason why most of the 8v8 setups are tank setups.

    I hit for 320 on a 50% debuffed targhet. You do your math. And trust me, with all this bonedancers around, it is hard to freecast for 10 times in a row.
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 2:26 PM by daytonchambers
    Patron wrote: ↑
    Mon 30 Mar 2020 8:49 AM
    Because mages are clothwearer, so easy to kill. They should be glasscannons. But at now, they are just glass without any, or low killpotencial.
    3k hp of mellee and 700 hp healpotential, need a castdmg what is worth to play a caster.



    My Hero specced for raiding doesn't have 3k health even fully buffed, only a couple races in the game can hit that without spending a zillion points on toughness and/or augCon which isnt very common for characters specced to RvR.

    Talkin out yer arse, mate.
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 2:27 PM by Razur Ur
    bigne88 wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 1:36 PM
    SoS every 10 minutes and is hard for a melee to reach a caster? Free rps that made every tank a det 9 machine with purge 3.
    Thanks are 3k unbuffed pile of hp that can 2/3 shot a caster.
    This is the reason why most of the 8v8 setups are tank setups.

    I hit for 320 on a 50% debuffed targhet. You do your math. And trust me, with all this bonedancers around, it is hard to freecast for 10 times in a row.

    You talking bullshit ;-) and sos can use a caster group vs tank group too btw! Caster Group need only kite kite kite and waiting for fading enemy
    immunity timer and then get the tank group again mezz, root! i dont know what you for caster playing that you doing so low dmg with
    debuff nuke. And many guys prefer tank group because is not so easy to playing how a caster group and do it more fun! every noob
    playing easy mode caster look herald how many activ caster gives vs active tanks ;-).
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 5:42 PM by bigne88
    Razur Ur wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 2:27 PM
    bigne88 wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 1:36 PM
    SoS every 10 minutes and is hard for a melee to reach a caster? Free rps that made every tank a det 9 machine with purge 3.
    Thanks are 3k unbuffed pile of hp that can 2/3 shot a caster.
    This is the reason why most of the 8v8 setups are tank setups.

    I hit for 320 on a 50% debuffed targhet. You do your math. And trust me, with all this bonedancers around, it is hard to freecast for 10 times in a row.

    You talking bullshit ;-) and sos can use a caster group vs tank group too btw! Caster Group need only kite kite kite and waiting for fading enemy
    immunity timer and then get the tank group again mezz, root! i dont know what you for caster playing that you doing so low dmg with
    debuff nuke. And many guys prefer tank group because is not so easy to playing how a caster group and do it more fun! every noob
    playing easy mode caster look herald how many activ caster gives vs active tanks ;-).

    Chill razur, torondor here. Im playing alb now, mostly sorc and mincer. No need to be so rude, please have some respect from the pov of a casterset player.
    Why every 8 men is dodging alb for hib or mid?

    Ask tonight to some higrank alb players that are on hib lately.

    Edit: I speak mostly for mid hibrid. Hib 5 natty pugs are still managable, because there are not many good bards/natty druids around, or really hig RR VW, but is a matter of time.
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 7:36 PM by bigne88
    Razur Ur wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 2:27 PM
    bigne88 wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 1:36 PM
    SoS every 10 minutes and is hard for a melee to reach a caster? Free rps that made every tank a det 9 machine with purge 3.
    Thanks are 3k unbuffed pile of hp that can 2/3 shot a caster.
    This is the reason why most of the 8v8 setups are tank setups.

    I hit for 320 on a 50% debuffed targhet. You do your math. And trust me, with all this bonedancers around, it is hard to freecast for 10 times in a row.

    You talking bullshit ;-) and sos can use a caster group vs tank group too btw! Caster Group need only kite kite kite and waiting for fading enemy
    immunity timer and then get the tank group again mezz, root! i dont know what you for caster playing that you doing so low dmg with
    debuff nuke. And many guys prefer tank group because is not so easy to playing how a caster group and do it more fun! every noob
    playing easy mode caster look herald how many activ caster gives vs active tanks ;-).


    you can check the damage i do to you debuffed. I dont talk BS, dude.

    Wed 1 Apr 2020 8:59 AM by Razur Ur
    bigne88 wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 5:42 PM
    Razur Ur wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 2:27 PM
    bigne88 wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 1:36 PM
    SoS every 10 minutes and is hard for a melee to reach a caster? Free rps that made every tank a det 9 machine with purge 3.
    Thanks are 3k unbuffed pile of hp that can 2/3 shot a caster.
    This is the reason why most of the 8v8 setups are tank setups.

    I hit for 320 on a 50% debuffed targhet. You do your math. And trust me, with all this bonedancers around, it is hard to freecast for 10 times in a row.

    Edit: I speak mostly for mid hibrid. Hib 5 natty pugs are still managable, because there are not many good bards/natty druids around, or really hig RR VW, but is a matter of time.

    Yeah sorry i speak only for hib full tank group but you knowing this i think :-) but i cant believe that a full tank mid group have more easier to handle a alb
    caster group how at a hib tank group. and believe me i didnt wont you rude, offend or something.
    Wed 1 Apr 2020 9:18 AM by Razur Ur
    bigne88 wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 7:36 PM
    Razur Ur wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 2:27 PM
    bigne88 wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 1:36 PM
    SoS every 10 minutes and is hard for a melee to reach a caster? Free rps that made every tank a det 9 machine with purge 3.
    Thanks are 3k unbuffed pile of hp that can 2/3 shot a caster.
    This is the reason why most of the 8v8 setups are tank setups.

    I hit for 320 on a 50% debuffed targhet. You do your math. And trust me, with all this bonedancers around, it is hard to freecast for 10 times in a row.

    You talking bullshit ;-) and sos can use a caster group vs tank group too btw! Caster Group need only kite kite kite and waiting for fading enemy
    immunity timer and then get the tank group again mezz, root! i dont know what you for caster playing that you doing so low dmg with
    debuff nuke. And many guys prefer tank group because is not so easy to playing how a caster group and do it more fun! every noob
    playing easy mode caster look herald how many activ caster gives vs active tanks ;-).


    you can check the damage i do to you debuffed. I dont talk BS, dude.

    Hey you talking over 320 dmg with debuff and in your picture i get 360 - 387 (-34) and iam sure your cabby use not red body debuff or? Normal i get dmg
    from cabby for 400-450 dmg ever realm rank and ra specs. which realm rank have your sorc?
    Wed 1 Apr 2020 1:42 PM by bigne88
    Razur Ur wrote: ↑
    Wed 1 Apr 2020 9:18 AM
    bigne88 wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 7:36 PM
    Razur Ur wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 2:27 PM
    You talking bullshit ;-) and sos can use a caster group vs tank group too btw! Caster Group need only kite kite kite and waiting for fading enemy
    immunity timer and then get the tank group again mezz, root! i dont know what you for caster playing that you doing so low dmg with
    debuff nuke. And many guys prefer tank group because is not so easy to playing how a caster group and do it more fun! every noob
    playing easy mode caster look herald how many activ caster gives vs active tanks ;-).


    you can check the damage i do to you debuffed. I dont talk BS, dude.

    Hey you talking over 320 dmg with debuff and in your picture i get 360 - 387 (-34) and iam sure your cabby use not red body debuff or? Normal i get dmg
    from cabby for 400-450 dmg ever realm rank and ra specs. which realm rank have your sorc?

    Ofc he uses red debuff...3 spec cab is optional. Im still rank 4, but with higer ranks, excluding WP, you just get a bit reduced variance and a bit more dmg.
    Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:08 PM by Razur Ur
    bigne88 wrote: ↑
    Wed 1 Apr 2020 1:42 PM
    Razur Ur wrote: ↑
    Wed 1 Apr 2020 9:18 AM
    bigne88 wrote: ↑
    Tue 31 Mar 2020 7:36 PM
    you can check the damage i do to you debuffed. I dont talk BS, dude.

    Hey you talking over 320 dmg with debuff and in your picture i get 360 - 387 (-34) and iam sure your cabby use not red body debuff or? Normal i get dmg
    from cabby for 400-450 dmg ever realm rank and ra specs. which realm rank have your sorc?

    Ofc he uses red debuff...3 spec cab is optional. Im still rank 4, but with higer ranks, excluding WP, you just get a bit reduced variance and a bit more dmg.

    i thought me this, you see with higher rank you have constant with debuff without crit dmg 380 until 400 dmg with sorc and i had red body resist from warden btw.
    and 380 until 400 dmg is far away from your first call only 320 dmg ^_^. I think with next rr up i trying avoidance of magic 7 ^_^. And dont forget your str/con debuff
    value 54? this is so strong too vs tanks is a nuke lesser for you :-).
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 11:42 AM by Uthred
    Changes are in since today:

    - implemented the announced critical chance / critical value change (exact values still subject to change)
    -- without RAs critical damage is now 30% against players and 55% against npcs
    -- Mastery of Pain and Wild Power and Falcon Eye now give a reduced crit chance but also increase the critical damage percent, 20% at level 9, same scaling as aom
    -- Healing crit value starts at 87.5%, Wild Healing also has a reduced crit chance and also increases the crit value, 20% at level 9, same scaling as aom
    -- wild minion is unchanged for now
    -- dual threat increases chance and value by 2, 3, 5, 7, 10%

    As said in the first post, any feedback is welcome and we are testing those changes for some time now.
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 11:46 AM by Xeladrich
    So now Berserks when they use berserk ability they'll do always 30% of damage more?
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 11:49 AM by romulus
    Uthred wrote: ↑
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 11:42 AM
    -- wild minion is unchanged for now

    Was Wild Minion crit chance supposed to be unchanged, or was it only crit value? I can't tell if the value is improved, but the crit % with WM 8 has dropped from 33% to 17% with the patch.
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 11:57 AM by gruenesschaf
    romulus wrote: ↑
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 11:49 AM
    Uthred wrote: ↑
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 11:42 AM
    -- wild minion is unchanged for now

    Was Wild Minion crit chance supposed to be unchanged, or was it only crit value? I can't tell if the value is improved, but the crit % with WM 8 has dropped from 33% to 17% with the patch.

    Looks like the chance change went already in, was supposed to go in tomorrow together with the crit value change after reviewing the interactions especially with necromancers.
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 1:02 PM by Bry
    Suggestion: let the server vote on the crit changes.

    It seems anti-fun to crit "some of the time'' and have a fixed value. Its now boring. Theres no more "ohh, i hit someone for a 200 crit!!"

    This is a change that litterally no one asked for.

    Please let the server vote. Nobody was complaining about the crit system.
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 1:03 PM by MrWolf
    Bry wrote: ↑
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 1:02 PM
    Suggestion: let the server vote on the crit changes.

    It seems anti-fun to crit "some of the time'' and have a fixed value. Its now boring. Theres no more "ohh, i hit someone for a 200 crit!!"

    This is a change that litterally no one asked for.

    Please let the server vote. Nobody was complaining about the crit system.

    read the op plz
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 1:17 PM by hyshash
    after all these changes to improve the tank grps you could have just implemented charge...
    would have made the grp vs grp dynamics at least a bit more interesseting compared to all these dull changes
    the melee bias is kinda obv tbh
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 2:03 PM by Spanker123
    Humm yeah well... as a necromancer, i account on my frequent crits to be able to raise my healing abilities, especially against stealthy disease carriers.

    This change probably cut my dps/healing by more than 20% making my tanking ratio worse than it was pvp side.
    To the people who disagree: remember we have 98 delve anytime wich gives 50% health back... 98 !!
    i know it can be very nice to draw a line between CRIT and pure dps ( without crit ), but remember , if i am right , mobs received up to 100% and players up to 50% more damage, and it sounds good.

    I dont know if juggernaut works for necro but then you rely on a pet to do your damage, and consideering the ease to evade a pet damage with cc.
    It is unfair that a direct nerf to crit CHANCES to improve other classes RAW power detroys the only chances for a class to be usefull in pvp and somewhat not broken.

    Please consideer changing your opinion on this crit chance for necros : 50% extra damage for a crit full spec on a 22% chance ( 32% max ) will never replace a full % crit for classes that heavily rely on shitty delve "anytime short range spell" to even survive anything as others spells are denied by the lack of purgeing other classes are blessed with.

    Thank you for your patience reading me. but i feel violated by those changes.
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 5:11 PM by gotwqqd
    I don’t care for this at all
    Was fine before
    Dual threat is garbage now
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 6:10 PM by genova
    So, it's the end of group melee ...

    Hope, they introduce RA Charge soon ....
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 7:27 PM by Iuppiter
    Uthred wrote: ↑
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 11:42 AM
    Changes are in since today:

    - implemented the announced critical chance / critical value change (exact values still subject to change)
    -- without RAs critical damage is now 30% against players and 55% against npcs
    -- Mastery of Pain and Wild Power and Falcon Eye now give a reduced crit chance but also increase the critical damage percent, 20% at level 9, same scaling as aom
    -- Healing crit value starts at 87.5%, Wild Healing also has a reduced crit chance and also increases the crit value, 20% at level 9, same scaling as aom
    -- wild minion is unchanged for now
    -- dual threat increases chance and value by 2, 3, 5, 7, 10%

    As said in the first post, any feedback is welcome and we are testing those changes for some time now.

    Sorry, but why is wild healing also changing when the OP only mentions crit damage and crit hits with respect to damage? The dynamic for heals is totally different vs. damage as you have to choose between heal values to try to optimize amount healed + power usage against casting times. Not to mention the spec group heal is rarely worthwhile without high crit chances since spreadheal is typically a more effective use of power. I'll have to test with the new changes, but on the surface it feels like wild healing will become less useful.
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 8:38 PM by Valaraukar
    gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 11:57 AM
    romulus wrote: ↑
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 11:49 AM
    Uthred wrote: ↑
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 11:42 AM
    -- wild minion is unchanged for now

    Was Wild Minion crit chance supposed to be unchanged, or was it only crit value? I can't tell if the value is improved, but the crit % with WM 8 has dropped from 33% to 17% with the patch.

    Looks like the chance change went already in, was supposed to go in tomorrow together with the crit value change after reviewing the interactions especially with necromancers.

    The crit damage % is fixed at 55% for pets now, even if I have Wild Minion 8 (17% crit chance).
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 9:02 PM by Tyrlaan
    gotwqqd wrote: ↑
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 5:11 PM
    I don’t care for this at all
    Was fine before
    Dual threat is garbage now

    Yeah dunno who asked for this change? It´s stupid, a waste of time (development, calculating the new effects, reevaluation) , change for the sake of change (as it isn´t supposed to change anything about dps and spike damage substantially?) and makes this server less DAoC (as people know it, look up mechanics on the internet and everything) more custom for the sake of custom.
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 10:32 PM by tech27
    Is there an issue with Crit damage with Bolt?

    With WP9, I can see the crit damage for DD and Dots are 50%.

    But Bolts are not 50%, the crit damage varies,

    it is possible Bolts are still using the old random 1-50% formula?

    Here are the bolt crits from testing today: Screenshots attached.

    Bolts test on a lv 49 Friar:
    Bolt for 405, Crit for 197 (48% crit dmg)
    Bolt for 498, Crit for 242 (48% crit dmg)
    Bolt for 498, Crit for 243 (49% crit dmg)
    Bolt for 235, Crit for 92 (39% crit dmg)
    Bolt for 424, Crit for 164 (38% crit dmg)
    Bolt for 407, Crit for 75 (18% crit dmg)

    Bolt on RR11 Nightshade:
    Bolt for 850 (w/ 50% matter debuff), Crit for 180 (21% crit dmg)





    Sun 5 Apr 2020 12:34 AM by gruenesschaf
    tech27 wrote: ↑
    Sat 4 Apr 2020 10:32 PM
    Is there an issue with Crit damage with Bolt?

    With WP9, I can see the crit damage for DD and Dots are 50%.

    But Bolts are not 50%, the crit damage varies,

    it is possible Bolts are still using the old random 1-50% formula?

    Yup, will be fixed after the restart tomorrow
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 1:32 AM by Shadowkill
    mastery of pain 1: 12% crit, 32% damage
    mastery of pain 2: 13% crit, 34% damage
    mastery of pain 3: 15% crit, 36% damage
    mastery of pain 4: 17% crit, 38% damage
    mastery of pain 5: 20% crit, 40% damage
    mastery of pain 6: 22% crit, 42% damage
    mastery of pain 7: 25% crit, 45% damage
    mastery of pain 8: 27% crit, 47% damage
    mastery of pain 9: 30% crit, 50% damage


    small interrogation, Mop9 give us 30% crit, that's with or without basic 10% ?
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 2:01 AM by sylvynyr
    Shadowkill wrote: ↑
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 1:32 AM
    mastery of pain 1: 12% crit, 32% damage
    mastery of pain 2: 13% crit, 34% damage
    mastery of pain 3: 15% crit, 36% damage
    mastery of pain 4: 17% crit, 38% damage
    mastery of pain 5: 20% crit, 40% damage
    mastery of pain 6: 22% crit, 42% damage
    mastery of pain 7: 25% crit, 45% damage
    mastery of pain 8: 27% crit, 47% damage
    mastery of pain 9: 30% crit, 50% damage


    small interrogation, Mop9 give us 30% crit, that's with or without basic 10% ?

    mastery of pain 0: 10% crit, 30% damage
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 3:29 PM by Valaraukar
    No changes yet with Wild Minion % crit damage. It is still fixed at 55%, shoudn't it change accordingly to Wild Minion level? The servernews notes says "Wild Minion chance reduced and crit damage increased, same scaling as aom". The crit chance is reduced, 17% with WM 8, but the crit damage has not been increased at all, always the basic 55% instead of 72% as it should be. Does it happen also to other pet owner classes? I have a full darkness BD, and using 2 warmages.
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 3:52 PM by Tyrlaan
    Valaraukar wrote: ↑
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 3:29 PM
    No changes yet with Wild Minion % crit damage. It is still fixed at 55%, shoudn't it change accordingly to Wild Minion level? The servernews notes says "Wild Minion chance reduced and crit damage increased, same scaling as aom". The crit chance is reduced, 17% with WM 8, but the crit damage has not been increased at all, always the basic 55% instead of 72% as it should be. Does it happen also to other pet owner classes? I have a full darkness BD, and using 2 warmages.

    Wild Minion affecting pet spells? 17% chance and +55% damage is way more than before this change that wasn´t supposed to change much...
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 4:08 PM by Valaraukar
    Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 3:52 PM
    Valaraukar wrote: ↑
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 3:29 PM
    No changes yet with Wild Minion % crit damage. It is still fixed at 55%, shoudn't it change accordingly to Wild Minion level? The servernews notes says "Wild Minion chance reduced and crit damage increased, same scaling as aom". The crit chance is reduced, 17% with WM 8, but the crit damage has not been increased at all, always the basic 55% instead of 72% as it should be. Does it happen also to other pet owner classes? I have a full darkness BD, and using 2 warmages.

    Wild Minion affecting pet spells? 17% chance and +55% damage is way more than before this change that wasn´t supposed to change much...

    errr..what?
    Wild Minion affects crit % for pets, in the same way Wild Power does for casters and Mastery of Pain for melees. More or less than before, I don't know and I don't care, but anyway it is not affecting the crit damage % as it is stated in the servernews. So I believe there's something wrong with it. That's all
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 4:24 PM by Tyrlaan
    Valaraukar wrote: ↑
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 4:08 PM
    errr..what?

    Let me quote Wild Minion for you:

    Increases chance of pet dealing a critical hit in melee by the listed percentage.
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 4:27 PM by Valaraukar
    Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 4:24 PM
    Valaraukar wrote: ↑
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 4:08 PM
    errr..what?

    Let me quote Wild Minion for you:

    Increases chance of pet dealing a critical hit in melee by the listed percentage.

    errr..... sorry for you but it is a refuse. It affects also spell crit. It is known almost world-wide
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 8:07 PM by gruenesschaf
    While the average damage remained unchanged, the frequency of lethal spikes was higher than expected in practice due to having a too high target value of what would constitute a lethal spike in testing.

    The next update will change the scaling from those crit RAs to that of Mastery of Blocking (ending at 25% at level 9, an increase from the current 20%), however, the critical bonus % will no longer increase, for damage it will remain at 30% or 50% in vendo mode.

    In essence, this is a nerf from NNF +39% crit chance to OF +25% crit chance. As this is a change of even the average gain for those common RAs everyone will receive a RA respec.
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 8:23 PM by Prometheus
    My problem with these changes is that I can't say the static damage/heals justifies such a reduced critical chance, more specifically wild healing, wild healing has such a low chance to critical that unless you max it out at 20% you won't be able to benefit from the realm ability in most combats, you need to go wild healing 5 just to see in theory 1 crit out of 10 heals, it's a lot to invest when you aren't benefiting from it most of the time.
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 10:39 PM by Prometheus
    Well honestly I think these changes may have sounded good on paper but it's just too much, randomness is what makes the game fun (to a certain point of course), let's get a vote after changes have stabilized for a week and let us decide, I have a feeling most of us aren't happy with these changes.
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:16 AM by Valaraukar
    gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 8:07 PM
    While the average damage remained unchanged, the frequency of lethal spikes was higher than expected in practice due to having a too high target value of what would constitute a lethal spike in testing.

    The next update will change the scaling from those crit RAs to that of Mastery of Blocking (ending at 25% at level 9, an increase from the current 20%), however, the critical bonus % will no longer increase, for damage it will remain at 30% or 50% in vendo mode.

    In essence, this is a nerf from NNF +39% crit chance to OF +25% crit chance. As this is a change of even the average gain for those common RAs everyone will receive a RA respec.

    This seems quite a nerf to Wild Minion... 34 Ra points to get a 25% crit chance and a fixed value of 55% crit damage against mobs? Seriously?
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:43 AM by Nunki
    gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
    Sun 5 Apr 2020 8:07 PM
    While the average damage remained unchanged, the frequency of lethal spikes was higher than expected in practice due to having a too high target value of what would constitute a lethal spike in testing.

    The next update will change the scaling from those crit RAs to that of Mastery of Blocking (ending at 25% at level 9, an increase from the current 20%), however, the critical bonus % will no longer increase, for damage it will remain at 30% or 50% in vendo mode.

    In essence, this is a nerf from NNF +39% crit chance to OF +25% crit chance. As this is a change of even the average gain for those common RAs everyone will receive a RA respec.

    A am curious about the average damage difference between the old Crit system and the current system (changes from 6th April).
    Is it still roundabout the same average damage? How does the damage of MoP 0-9 compare between both systems?
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:51 AM by Swymyn
    They nerfed it pretty hard Apr 6. The old benefit from MoPain was 11.7% increase for 34 rsp. The previous change made it 12%. Now on Apr 6 they made it 7.5%

    Seriously, who was whining about crit rates that you had to go monkeying with game mechanics????

    It was fine, now you've just pissed ppl off.
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 12:07 PM by Meandow
    Are there any new sims on how much of a nerf this is percentage wise?
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 12:09 PM by Nunki
    Swymyn wrote: ↑
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:51 AM
    They nerfed it pretty hard Apr 6. The old benefit from MoPain was 11.7% increase for 34 rsp. The previous change made it 12%. Now on Apr 6 they made it 7.5%

    Seriously, who was whining about crit rates that you had to go monkeying with game mechanics????

    It was fine, now you've just pissed ppl off.
    To be honest, they can do what they want or think is good for the server, I can try out other specs no problem.

    But transparent information and proper reasoning is somehow required.
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:06 PM by gotwqqd
    Swymyn wrote: ↑
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:51 AM
    They nerfed it pretty hard Apr 6. The old benefit from MoPain was 11.7% increase for 34 rsp. The previous change made it 12%. Now on Apr 6 they made it 7.5%

    Seriously, who was whining about crit rates that you had to go monkeying with game mechanics????

    It was fine, now you've just pissed ppl off.
    The same people that whines about losing fights after playing “perfectly”
    So they start removing elements of rng and it’s streakiness
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:17 PM by Valaraukar
    gotwqqd wrote: ↑
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 1:06 PM
    Swymyn wrote: ↑
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:51 AM
    They nerfed it pretty hard Apr 6. The old benefit from MoPain was 11.7% increase for 34 rsp. The previous change made it 12%. Now on Apr 6 they made it 7.5%

    Seriously, who was whining about crit rates that you had to go monkeying with game mechanics????

    It was fine, now you've just pissed ppl off.
    The same people that whines about losing fights after playing “perfectly”
    So they start removing elements of rng and it’s streakiness

    This is a good point... never thought about it but this change is a great advantage for higher RR, that can spend so much RA points to increase the crit chance %, against lower RR that cannot do it, and there is no more a random crit damage value. So now if you have higher RA (I repeat... 34 ra points to get a 25% crit chance) you will ALWAYS do more damage against ppl who have lower crit chance % due to lower RA level in the appropriate Ability (MoP, WP or WM).
    Go for the pros! Go for them!!!!!!
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 2:03 PM by Horus
    The crit RA nerf unfairly overly affects archery damage which was already generally believe to be low.

    Falcon Eye was a way of increasing ranged bow DPS. This has been seriously nerfed.

    At least with ranged spell damage you can move those RA points to Mastery of Magery to gain some DPS back.

    There is no flat "increase of bow damage" RA that correlates to that. All you can do is put more points into fire rate but many already fire at cap with Rapid Fire.

    It really does hit bow-spec more that other ranged attacks...
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 2:15 PM by Cadebrennus
    Swymyn wrote: ↑
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:51 AM
    They nerfed it pretty hard Apr 6. The old benefit from MoPain was 11.7% increase for 34 rsp. The previous change made it 12%. Now on Apr 6 they made it 7.5%

    Seriously, who was whining about crit rates that you had to go monkeying with game mechanics????

    It was fine, now you've just pissed ppl off.

    The crit whiners were probably the same people whining about Mid leather vulnerability to slash.
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 2:29 PM by Delegator
    I didn't understand the reason for making the change in the first place, and the fact that it had to be partially backed out means that it wasn't adequately tested or thought through. I shudder to think what will happen with weapon style revamps.
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 2:57 PM by Gudbrand
    Just tested crits on savage today on the training dummy. Here are the results:

    LvL 50 Kobold Savage 50H2H 6L5

    MoP 0
    Crit chance: 10%
    Base Damage: 69
    Crit Damage: 37

    MoP 9
    Crit chance: 35%
    Base Damage: 69
    Crit Damage: 37

    This can't be right.....
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 3:38 PM by Spanker123
    We need more crits not bigger crits !
    or if you wanna do it , i dont mind that you dont raise the crit chance or the spell's number ( ie pure damage ), then rebalance the proximity drains by putting em 80% life leech will put them on par with any class failing combos instead of being the punching bag that cant comeback that they are now due to the change ty !
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 4:40 PM by imweasel
    So do all toons get a realm Respec? This is a significant change to crit mechanics...
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 4:48 PM by joshisanonymous
    Gudbrand wrote: ↑
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 2:57 PM
    Just tested crits on savage today on the training dummy. Here are the results:

    LvL 50 Kobold Savage 50H2H 6L5

    MoP 0
    Crit chance: 10%
    Base Damage: 69
    Crit Damage: 37

    MoP 9
    Crit chance: 35%
    Base Damage: 69
    Crit Damage: 37

    This can't be right.....

    Check today's patch notes. It's right.
    Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:09 PM by Sepplord
    So a change is announced that is supposed to not really change anything, just go from "lots of crits with some lowdmg and some spike dmg" to "not many crits, but spike still possible"
    Feedback is gathered, change is put in.


    Then within 48hours everything gets changed and suddenly spiking is not possible anymore. Whole gameplay is changed and overcoming bigger numbers with surprise inc is taken out of the game...

    I wonder which player group it was that was upset that they can't live forever...


    If that was the goal, why announce it as a change that isnt suppose to change dmg? Feels like a bait and switch
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:17 AM by Kermichil
    Between this and the proposed weapon skill change, I am very concerned for the future of this server. They took something that wasn't broken, and was a major aspect of the game for many years and changed it for the sake of change. It went in with little testing, and has been significantly altered in intention in the 48 hours it has been live.

    The style changes will be an even greater overhaul of a system that again has been stable. I see no indications that it will be more transparent or better tested than these changes. As others have asked, I am interested in who was clamoring for these changes and why.
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:51 AM by Quik
    My guess would be the dev's felt these changes would help the casual player base more, and the casual player base rarely posts on the forums. The dev's must have felt these changes were warranted for something maybe they saw in game or even just felt was necessary.

    I love how people want to have a vote on something on a server they simply play on.

    When the dev's allow a vote it is nice and it must be something they are on the fence about, but if they want to make a change for any reason they certainly do not need to ask for a vote especially if it is something they feel just needs to be implemented.

    I would bet the only people that genuinely feel bad effects from these changes are the ones that really crunch numbers and min max every little detail, and I would also bet those are the last people the dev's are worried about pleasing as the casual player base is most of your population, not the min/maxers.
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 2:00 AM by trawetsnivek
    So basically the value of 34 realm points was cut in half. The old system before April 4 gave a 14.7% increase in damage, the modified system after April 6 gives a 7.5% bonus. Was this move intended to put this RA more line with something like Aug Str? Has anyone done the math on a strength based weapon to see how much Aug Str 9 would increase damage?

    I actually don't mind this change as it nerfs those with higher realm rank who can afford to max out this RA. Evens out the playing field a bit between the lower RR's and high RR's. A low RR player with more skill will now have a better shot at beating a high RR that doesn't play with as much skill at least when it applies to the solo game.
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:56 AM by gotwqqd
    Quik wrote: ↑
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:51 AM
    My guess would be the dev's felt these changes would help the casual player base more, and the casual player base rarely posts on the forums. The dev's must have felt these changes were warranted for something maybe they saw in game or even just felt was necessary.

    I love how people want to have a vote on something on a server they simply play on.

    When the dev's allow a vote it is nice and it must be something they are on the fence about, but if they want to make a change for any reason they certainly do not need to ask for a vote especially if it is something they feel just needs to be implemented.

    I would bet the only people that genuinely feel bad effects from these changes are the ones that really crunch numbers and min max every little detail, and I would also bet those are the last people the dev's are worried about pleasing as the casual player base is most of your population, not the min/maxers.
    My guess is that the “elite pro” hardcore “professional pro” players didn’t like the fact they died when they executed an encounter perfectly. They hate rng. I see it more and more in game development. Crying about losing because of a die
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:19 AM by sylvynyr
    gotwqqd wrote: ↑
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:56 AM
    My guess is that the “elite pro” hardcore “professional pro” players didn’t like the fact they died when they executed an encounter perfectly. They hate rng. I see it more and more in game development. Crying about losing because of a die

    Seriously, do people think they are playing an RPG or something? What are those blue things used for?

    Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:05 AM by Patron
    I dont think votes are a good thing.
    Most player have no clue about the impact and a vote is everytime a poor leadership because player should decide a case, staff dont can or want. Thats stupid.
    A good staff should be able to know what is the best for the server, no matter if the community like or dislike the changes.
    And till the animistnerf i got a feeling, decisions of staff in the past was good.
    But now it got sure for me, that staff make wrong decisions, which are a risk for Phoenix. Amnesia not so much but critsystem and weaponstyleoverhaul are very sensitive for the game and the possibility staff make players end to play is real.

    And ofc, i cannot decide what the staff should do, but what everybody in this community can, is to give feedback, so the staff get a reflection about their decisions.
    Free of insults and based on facts.

    But when i see staffmember which violate the Phoenix Namerules (SAIBABA= religios leader of a sect) or Uthred not delete insulting posts in threads(Opfer???), after the posts got reported, then i ask myself, if the zenit of Phoenix isn´t over?
    Funny thing is, SAIBABA enforce the namerules and ban people for names which are violated the namerules. I reported Uthred the nameviolation, but report got closed and thats it.
    I still have hope. We´ll see what the state of Phoenix is in 2 month.
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 8:58 AM by Valaraukar
    trawetsnivek wrote: ↑
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 2:00 AM
    So basically the value of 34 realm points was cut in half. The old system before April 4 gave a 14.7% increase in damage, the modified system after April 6 gives a 7.5% bonus. Was this move intended to put this RA more line with something like Aug Str? Has anyone done the math on a strength based weapon to see how much Aug Str 9 would increase damage?

    I actually don't mind this change as it nerfs those with higher realm rank who can afford to max out this RA. Evens out the playing field a bit between the lower RR's and high RR's. A low RR player with more skill will now have a better shot at beating a high RR that doesn't play with as much skill at least when it applies to the solo game.

    Actually it nerfs low RR players... High RR player will now always have a more dmg output, because the dmg % is fixed and the only variable is the chance %, by the RA level. So, high RR players, who can spend 34 points in MoP or WP, will have always a 25% chance to crit (with a fixed dmg %), low RR will have at best a 12% chance to crit, with the same dmg %, using 10 RA points, because it is not worth anymore to spend all these RA points if you are below RR7, and have so many other RAs to get.
    Maybe I'm wrong but this is how I see it
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:10 PM by Sepplord
    Quik wrote: ↑
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:51 AM
    My guess would be the dev's felt these changes would help the casual player base more, and the casual player base rarely posts on the forums. The dev's must have felt these changes were warranted for something maybe they saw in game or even just felt was necessary.

    I love how people want to have a vote on something on a server they simply play on.

    When the dev's allow a vote it is nice and it must be something they are on the fence about, but if they want to make a change for any reason they certainly do not need to ask for a vote especially if it is something they feel just needs to be implemented.

    I would bet the only people that genuinely feel bad effects from these changes are the ones that really crunch numbers and min max every little detail, and I would also bet those are the last people the dev's are worried about pleasing as the casual player base is most of your population, not the min/maxers.

    Increasing TTK by heavily nerfing crits doesn't help the casuals....quite the contrary
    Removing high-spike damage helps fotm-elite 8mans that roam and kill for hours without dieing. They control the fight, and they have coordinated healers. The only thing that messes with them from time to time and lets an enemy get a kill in or two is unpredictable spike damage. This change removes that. Might be good for an esports, but for the casual DAoC-Player this just means their chances at getting a kill against a dedicated group went down significantly in an even-numbers fight.
    Heavy spike damage is also the only way for a smaller group of players to kill anything when fighting against a decent fullgroup.


    But in the end, does it even matter WHO benefits or not? What was supposed to be a purely "behind the scenes" change, without impact on fightresults, turned into a BIG Nerf that wasn't intended. Instead of going back until a better solution is found to make crits feel more worthwhile, it is doubled down on and turned into a big nerf of standard offensive RA-choices.
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:41 PM by gotwqqd
    Sepplord wrote: ↑
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:10 PM
    Quik wrote: ↑
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:51 AM
    My guess would be the dev's felt these changes would help the casual player base more, and the casual player base rarely posts on the forums. The dev's must have felt these changes were warranted for something maybe they saw in game or even just felt was necessary.

    I love how people want to have a vote on something on a server they simply play on.

    When the dev's allow a vote it is nice and it must be something they are on the fence about, but if they want to make a change for any reason they certainly do not need to ask for a vote especially if it is something they feel just needs to be implemented.

    I would bet the only people that genuinely feel bad effects from these changes are the ones that really crunch numbers and min max every little detail, and I would also bet those are the last people the dev's are worried about pleasing as the casual player base is most of your population, not the min/maxers.

    Increasing TTK by heavily nerfing crits doesn't help the casuals....quite the contrary
    Removing high-spike damage helps fotm-elite 8mans that roam and kill for hours without dieing. They control the fight, and they have coordinated healers. The only thing that messes with them from time to time and lets an enemy get a kill in or two is unpredictable spike damage. This change removes that. Might be good for an esports, but for the casual DAoC-Player this just means their chances at getting a kill against a dedicated group went down significantly in an even-numbers fight.
    Heavy spike damage is also the only way for a smaller group of players to kill anything when fighting against a decent fullgroup.


    But in the end, does it even matter WHO benefits or not? What was supposed to be a purely "behind the scenes" change, without impact on fightresults, turned into a BIG Nerf that wasn't intended. Instead of going back until a better solution is found to make crits feel more worthwhile, it is doubled down on and turned into a big nerf of standard offensive RA-choices.

    Great synopsis.
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:52 PM by joshisanonymous
    Sepplord wrote: ↑
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:10 PM
    Increasing TTK by heavily nerfing crits doesn't help the casuals....quite the contrary
    Removing high-spike damage helps fotm-elite 8mans that roam and kill for hours without dieing. They control the fight, and they have coordinated healers. The only thing that messes with them from time to time and lets an enemy get a kill in or two is unpredictable spike damage. This change removes that. Might be good for an esports, but for the casual DAoC-Player this just means their chances at getting a kill against a dedicated group went down significantly in an even-numbers fight.
    Heavy spike damage is also the only way for a smaller group of players to kill anything when fighting against a decent fullgroup.


    But in the end, does it even matter WHO benefits or not? What was supposed to be a purely "behind the scenes" change, without impact on fightresults, turned into a BIG Nerf that wasn't intended. Instead of going back until a better solution is found to make crits feel more worthwhile, it is doubled down on and turned into a big nerf of standard offensive RA-choices.

    But crits are rare at low RR, rarer still for low RRs assisting each other to have a string of crits at the same time, and with the old system, rarer still for all of those crits to be high crits. Now, for low RR, the chance to crit is hardly different, but there's no chance of those crits being tiny if they do happen. I'm really not sure either situation gives low RR groups a better chance to get kills in on a high RR group if crits are the only way to get those kills. I'm inclined to think what gives low RR groups a chance is more being very well coordinated than getting lucky crits from time to time, though of course those lucky crits help when they happen.

    Contrary to this post where you're saying this helps high RR groups, your other post seemed to suggest that this change hurts them because they can't take on larger numbers with the crit changes now. Am I misunderstanding or are you contradicting yourself? (Also, I wish I ever saw high RR 8mans try to take on zergs on this server, but I don't think I've ever seen this. They seem far more interested in arranging 8v8 duels than partaking in realm wars.)
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 10:47 PM by easytoremember
    joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:52 PM
    Sepplord wrote: ↑
    Tue 7 Apr 2020 12:10 PM
    Increasing TTK by heavily nerfing crits doesn't help the casuals....quite the contrary
    Removing high-spike damage helps fotm-elite 8mans that roam and kill for hours without dieing. They control the fight, and they have coordinated healers. The only thing that messes with them from time to time and lets an enemy get a kill in or two is unpredictable spike damage. This change removes that. Might be good for an esports, but for the casual DAoC-Player this just means their chances at getting a kill against a dedicated group went down significantly in an even-numbers fight.
    Heavy spike damage is also the only way for a smaller group of players to kill anything when fighting against a decent fullgroup.


    But in the end, does it even matter WHO benefits or not? What was supposed to be a purely "behind the scenes" change, without impact on fightresults, turned into a BIG Nerf that wasn't intended. Instead of going back until a better solution is found to make crits feel more worthwhile, it is doubled down on and turned into a big nerf of standard offensive RA-choices.

    But crits are rare at low RR, rarer still for low RRs assisting each other to have a string of crits at the same time, and with the old system, rarer still for all of those crits to be high crits. Now, for low RR, the chance to crit is hardly different, but there's no chance of those crits being tiny if they do happen. I'm really not sure either situation gives low RR groups a better chance to get kills in on a high RR group if crits are the only way to get those kills. I'm inclined to think what gives low RR groups a chance is more being very well coordinated than getting lucky crits from time to time, though of course those lucky crits help when they happen.

    Contrary to this post where you're saying this helps high RR groups, your other post seemed to suggest that this change hurts them because they can't take on larger numbers with the crit changes now. Am I misunderstanding or are you contradicting yourself? (Also, I wish I ever saw high RR 8mans try to take on zergs on this server, but I don't think I've ever seen this. They seem far more interested in arranging 8v8 duels than partaking in realm wars.)
    spike damage, not dps; you need spike damage to burst them down


    A 20 crit followed by a 40 crit is not the same thing as 2 30% crits. It's a matter of skipping the 'need a big heal' range of health straight to dead
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 2:11 AM by teiloh
    Don't think the change is necessary.
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:13 PM by Taniquetil
    A 95dmg weapon proc is now not only more effective than MoPain, its just outright better.

    95 dmg proc. (variance)+resists = a 70-80dmg spike
    18% proc rate (Someone feel free to correct me, but i think it's around this proc rate?)

    Compared to MoPain4 (to achieve 19%) crit rate

    To crit for 70-80dmg you need to swing for 250dmg a swing.

    Then add in a factor such as a weapon proc being able to be added to an offhand weapon and hit for 75/80 dmg. So MoPain becomes incomparable to the benefit of a weapon proc there.

    Could also consider that ablatives negate melee damage further and account for a further reduced critical hit as well, but then its tricky since counter arguments to that are group resists bringing magic resists to 50% etc, so we'll leave that out of it.

    Summary: MoPain has now become less useful than a weapon proc. oO ?!?!? This feels weird.
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:48 PM by Centenario
    Taniquetil wrote: ↑
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:13 PM
    Summary: MoPain has now become less useful than a weapon proc. oO ?!?!? This feels weird.

    I thought they said that overall the damage has not changed much:
    gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
    Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:40 PM
    This will result in the average total damage being about 2% higher at level 9 of these RAs, less than 2% at lower levels and no change without these RAs.

    So MoPain has always been like that? Maybe you had the wrong idea before.
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 2:53 PM by joshisanonymous
    Taniquetil wrote: ↑
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:13 PM
    A 95dmg weapon proc is now not only more effective than MoPain, its just outright better.

    95 dmg proc. (variance)+resists = a 70-80dmg spike
    18% proc rate (Someone feel free to correct me, but i think it's around this proc rate?)

    Compared to MoPain4 (to achieve 19%) crit rate

    To crit for 70-80dmg you need to swing for 250dmg a swing.

    Then add in a factor such as a weapon proc being able to be added to an offhand weapon and hit for 75/80 dmg. So MoPain becomes incomparable to the benefit of a weapon proc there.

    Could also consider that ablatives negate melee damage further and account for a further reduced critical hit as well, but then its tricky since counter arguments to that are group resists bringing magic resists to 50% etc, so we'll leave that out of it.

    Summary: MoPain has now become less useful than a weapon proc. oO ?!?!? This feels weird.

    This is kind of a weird comparison since it's not a choice of one or the other, but I get that you have to spend RA points to get one and not for the other, so that's something.
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 3:05 PM by Razur Ur
    Better is without mop give not base crit chance vs player and only pvm give basic 10% crit!!!

    so you could better distribute the points:

    mop 1 til 9 = 1%/2%/3%/3%/3%/4%/4%/5%/5%
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 3:54 PM by Taniquetil
    joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 2:53 PM
    This is kind of a weird comparison since it's not a choice of one or the other, but I get that you have to spend RA points to get one and not for the other, so that's something.

    Before, yes you were gambling, right, some fights MoP crits would suck and others you'd hit bangers that could really affect a fight, which Imo was more exciting. Of course sometimes that would average out over a single 10-20 swing fight and amount to about the same, but in reality it could affect things like pushing people to need to use an RA earlier than they planned, or drop a heal pot earlier and react. Now due to this change the fight style feels a lot more predictable, which feels like a bit of a shame.

    Before you could crit for up to 50% so a single swing would only need to be 150dmg in order to make the crit as effective or more effective than a dd proc in certain cases. Because yes you can average it out over 10k swings, but no one fight lasts 10k swings. you're looking for spike damage in certain instances to make fights surprise/delight you.

    Not just notice a slight bump every 10 swings.

    I get that the maths says 'average over time is roughly the same' although they did concede that they did infact nerf MoP more than the original statement, meaning that the nerf has actually now reduced overall damage output more than 2% stated originally.



    *****FYI****** I've pretty much only ever run low MoP setup myself so it doesnt overly affect my playstyle, but I do notice it makes the fights a fair bit mre predictable, which is a shame imo, even if it was sometimes to my own disadvantage, it does make the game less 'colourful'
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:34 PM by Sepplord
    Centenario wrote: ↑
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:48 PM
    Taniquetil wrote: ↑
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:13 PM
    Summary: MoPain has now become less useful than a weapon proc. oO ?!?!? This feels weird.

    I thought they said that overall the damage has not changed much:
    gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
    Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:40 PM
    This will result in the average total damage being about 2% higher at level 9 of these RAs, less than 2% at lower levels and no change without these RAs.

    So MoPain has always been like that? Maybe you had the wrong idea before.

    Taniquetil wrote: ↑
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 3:54 PM
    I get that the maths says 'average over time is roughly the same' although they did concede that they did infact nerf MoP more than the original statement, meaning that the nerf has actually now reduced overall damage output more than 2% stated originally.


    That was only the initial intention of the change. Because the inital change had similar average dmg but too many "lethal-spikes" they couldn't leave it in. Instead of reverting the change, they just removed the critdmg-scaling portion that the change had introduced and increased the critchance from 20 to 25%. But the initial critchance of MoP (and WP/etc...) was 39%.
    The critdamage is now fixed to 30%, the average of the variance (10-50%).
    Critchance is down from 39% to 25%.

    So, in total critchance was nerfed by 14% absolute (about 1/3reduction relatively) and the possibility to have a really hard hitting crit of 45-50% bonusdamage was removed. Kind of the opposite of what this change was supposed (or at least what we were told) to do (aka giving crits a special feeling back).
    Thu 9 Apr 2020 4:22 AM by Arthoras
    when that special feeling should be grief and anger that the crit just executed could have done almost twice as much damage a few days ago and you are now thinking about whether you could have won the fight three days ago... ya then the change totaly works.

    opinions are different... sure... but in my opinion crits were more fun a few days ago, when you can call a crit a crit. now it does the average dmg... but that is nothing special and boring. as far as I'm concerned i dropped the ra... the point invest after the second level of it is not worth anything. the average benefit is that low that every other ra is more rewarding now.
    Thu 9 Apr 2020 5:40 AM by imweasel
    Arthoras wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Apr 2020 4:22 AM
    when that special feeling should be grief and anger that the crit just executed could have done almost twice as much damage a few days ago and you are now thinking about whether you could have won the fight three days ago... ya then the change totaly works.

    opinions are different... sure... but in my opinion crits were more fun a few days ago, when you can call a crit a crit. now it does the average dmg... but that is nothing special and boring. as far as I'm concerned i dropped the ra... the point invest after the second level of it is not worth anything. the average benefit is that low that every other ra is more rewarding now.

    So top out at MoP at 2?
    Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:10 AM by SlowMo
    I am totally confused right now :-)

    What is the actual MoPain setting?

    Could you guys plz update the ingame Info on Mopain aswell.
    Thu 9 Apr 2020 1:43 PM by Sepplord
    Arthoras wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Apr 2020 4:22 AM
    when that special feeling should be grief and anger that the crit just executed could have done almost twice as much damage a few days ago and you are now thinking about whether you could have won the fight three days ago... ya then the change totaly works.

    opinions are different... sure... but in my opinion crits were more fun a few days ago, when you can call a crit a crit. now it does the average dmg... but that is nothing special and boring. as far as I'm concerned i dropped the ra... the point invest after the second level of it is not worth anything. the average benefit is that low that every other ra is more rewarding now.

    At least your char seems to have alternatives (mine also has tons thankfully)

    There are many chars that don't though. They are just stuck with a 14%critchance nerf, out of nowwhere
    Fri 10 Apr 2020 10:20 AM by Valaraukar
    Sepplord wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Apr 2020 1:43 PM
    Arthoras wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Apr 2020 4:22 AM
    when that special feeling should be grief and anger that the crit just executed could have done almost twice as much damage a few days ago and you are now thinking about whether you could have won the fight three days ago... ya then the change totaly works.

    opinions are different... sure... but in my opinion crits were more fun a few days ago, when you can call a crit a crit. now it does the average dmg... but that is nothing special and boring. as far as I'm concerned i dropped the ra... the point invest after the second level of it is not worth anything. the average benefit is that low that every other ra is more rewarding now.

    At least your char seems to have alternatives (mine also has tons thankfully)

    There are many chars that don't though. They are just stuck with a 14%critchance nerf, out of nowwhere

    I totally agree. Dark BD for example suffered a HUGE nerf by this change (after pvp pet dmg nerf, after drop rate nerf... so much love for BDs, eh? ) because with Wild Minion you had TWO pets with 39% crit chance, now they have 25% each, and still you have to spend 34 ra points to get WM at 9. I have it for DS run, to farm orange red mob it is not needed, but now against very high level mobs the damage is ridicously reduced. The same can be told about Supp Sm that used to have WP 9 for bomb groups... what of them now?
    For my BD I think I will lower WM to 6 and get WP at 5 with serenity and MCL 2 so I can use my own dds to add some dmg and see how it works.
    Anyway, I will be glad if any of the staff could keep partecipating at this discussion, or has it been simply forgotten? We are talking about an incredible nerf to some of the most used RA in the game, and it just ended with a mere "we nerfed it at 25% max, good luck and have fun"?
    Sun 12 Apr 2020 9:12 PM by Turano
    every time I get an itch to come back I only have to take a look in the forum and the patchnotes to totaly get rid of it

    thanks for that
    happy easter
    Wed 15 Apr 2020 1:17 PM by Horus
    I don't think the RA Falcon Eye should be affected until other archery changes go in. Bow damage is already sub par and there are no other RAs to get that really do much for bow dps or help the classic archer ranged play type. Master of Archery is almost worthless with the current rules and Rapid FIre implementation. It is OK for those who don't want to spec bow to 35 but that goes against the general idea that bow speccing needs help, not low bow melee spec.
    Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:27 AM by Truen
    I hope crit values stay the way they are..while I like some QoL changes, I'm not eager to see the game's ever onward shifting away from the SI platform it was originally designed to encapsulate.
    Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:59 AM by easytoremember
    I hate that wild minion's values got knocked down as well. You have to dump 10 points into it to achieve 10% base crit chance on a pet (12%)

    I also hate that critblade is deeeeeeeeeeeeadu. Even 70 cs, 2h, on a 50% crit was poor damage, and then you gave everyone more hp, now you throttle damage caps
    Fri 1 May 2020 7:37 PM by SlowMo
    And meanwhile. Damage Shield does more reliable damage then crits.
    I hit myself as Dual Wield for 25-30 dmg when both weapons hit.

    What does crit do? Yeah go figure...
    Fri 1 May 2020 7:48 PM by Riac
    crit is straight garbage now. 9l8 sb and i run pain 2, anything over that jsut isnt worth the points.
    isee some high RRs crit me @ a 10% chance. that means they are running 0 pain lol.
    do you know how shit that has to be for rank9s and 10 to see crit as soooo shit that they dont even spend 2 points for 6%?
    they botched this imo, or maybe this is exactly how they wanted it to be. idk.
    Fri 1 May 2020 8:23 PM by thirian24
    Yeah crit is pure garb now. Everyone I know spec'd out of it.
    Fri 1 May 2020 10:47 PM by paqdizzle
    thirian24 wrote: ↑
    Fri 1 May 2020 8:23 PM
    Yeah crit is pure garb now. Everyone I know spec'd out of it.

    It's only garbage if you're melee, it's nasty on nukes and the debuff for said nuke. Casters with heavy DD nukes are the only ones truly benefiting from crits on Phoenix. If you're melee, you will have to hit for 334 to see a 100 damage crit. which is where crits are to be considered "Critical" imo. Which, how many pure melee classes can do that? like 3? maybe? lol. I hear you though.. I wish crits just had more umph.. The old crit system should be for the casters, and they need to fix this new crit system and make it for melee specific. I would be happier hitting around 220 and still see a 100 damage crit if I specced into MoP9.
    Fri 1 May 2020 11:58 PM by thirian24
    paqdizzle wrote: ↑
    Fri 1 May 2020 10:47 PM
    thirian24 wrote: ↑
    Fri 1 May 2020 8:23 PM
    Yeah crit is pure garb now. Everyone I know spec'd out of it.

    It's only garbage if you're melee, it's nasty on nukes and the debuff for said nuke. Casters with heavy DD nukes are the only ones truly benefiting from crits on Phoenix. If you're melee, you will have to hit for 334 to see a 100 damage crit. which is where crits are to be considered "Critical" imo. Which, how many pure melee classes can do that? like 3? maybe? lol. I hear you though.. I wish crits just had more umph.. The old crit system should be for the casters, and they need to fix this new crit system and make it for melee specific. I would be happier hitting around 220 and still see a 100 damage crit if I specced into MoP9.


    Well they fucked all Melee on this server when they gave everyone access to spec AF.
    Sat 2 May 2020 5:09 AM by Cadebrennus
    thirian24 wrote: ↑
    Fri 1 May 2020 11:58 PM
    paqdizzle wrote: ↑
    Fri 1 May 2020 10:47 PM
    thirian24 wrote: ↑
    Fri 1 May 2020 8:23 PM
    Yeah crit is pure garb now. Everyone I know spec'd out of it.

    It's only garbage if you're melee, it's nasty on nukes and the debuff for said nuke. Casters with heavy DD nukes are the only ones truly benefiting from crits on Phoenix. If you're melee, you will have to hit for 334 to see a 100 damage crit. which is where crits are to be considered "Critical" imo. Which, how many pure melee classes can do that? like 3? maybe? lol. I hear you though.. I wish crits just had more umph.. The old crit system should be for the casters, and they need to fix this new crit system and make it for melee specific. I would be happier hitting around 220 and still see a 100 damage crit if I specced into MoP9.


    Well they fucked all Melee on this server when they gave everyone access to spec AF.

    I couldn't agree more
    Sat 9 May 2020 1:55 PM by l3lumarlin
    Does this mean we can have duelist reflexes back??
    Tue 2 Jun 2020 2:50 AM by Toadster
    Any chance the Charbuilder can be updated to reflect the current values for MoPain and Wild Power?
    Tue 2 Jun 2020 7:49 PM by imamo
    thirian24 wrote: ↑
    Fri 1 May 2020 11:58 PM
    paqdizzle wrote: ↑
    Fri 1 May 2020 10:47 PM
    thirian24 wrote: ↑
    Fri 1 May 2020 8:23 PM
    Yeah crit is pure garb now. Everyone I know spec'd out of it.

    It's only garbage if you're melee, it's nasty on nukes and the debuff for said nuke. Casters with heavy DD nukes are the only ones truly benefiting from crits on Phoenix. If you're melee, you will have to hit for 334 to see a 100 damage crit. which is where crits are to be considered "Critical" imo. Which, how many pure melee classes can do that? like 3? maybe? lol. I hear you though.. I wish crits just had more umph.. The old crit system should be for the casters, and they need to fix this new crit system and make it for melee specific. I would be happier hitting around 220 and still see a 100 damage crit if I specced into MoP9.


    Well they fucked all Melee on this server when they gave everyone access to spec AF.
    this
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 11:04 AM by jhaerik
    Centenario wrote: ↑
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:48 PM
    Taniquetil wrote: ↑
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:13 PM
    Summary: MoPain has now become less useful than a weapon proc. oO ?!?!? This feels weird.

    I thought they said that overall the damage has not changed much:
    gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
    Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:40 PM
    This will result in the average total damage being about 2% higher at level 9 of these RAs, less than 2% at lower levels and no change without these RAs.

    So MoPain has always been like that? Maybe you had the wrong idea before.

    Melee generally only killed targets being healed by either assisting (which hard loses to any caster group) or by spike damage. Consistent melee damage doesn't kill anything. You can't out dps a healers heals. If you look at a savage a a triple/quad with 2-3 crits that ranged on the high side would drop a non full hp caster. With the extra HP and lower crit chances spike damage basically doesn't exist.
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 12:32 PM by inoeth
    jhaerik wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 11:04 AM
    Centenario wrote: ↑
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:48 PM
    Taniquetil wrote: ↑
    Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:13 PM
    Summary: MoPain has now become less useful than a weapon proc. oO ?!?!? This feels weird.

    I thought they said that overall the damage has not changed much:
    gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
    Wed 25 Mar 2020 2:40 PM
    This will result in the average total damage being about 2% higher at level 9 of these RAs, less than 2% at lower levels and no change without these RAs.

    So MoPain has always been like that? Maybe you had the wrong idea before.

    Melee generally only killed targets being healed by either assisting (which hard loses to any caster group) or by spike damage. Consistent melee damage doesn't kill anything. You can't out dps a healers heals. If you look at a savage a a triple/quad with 2-3 crits that ranged on the high side would drop a non full hp caster. With the extra HP and lower crit chances spike damage basically doesn't exist.

    actually on average the spike dmg is higher now, just the number of crits decreased. so in fact crits are more rare but have higher value, before it was alot more consistant.
    btw comparing crits with svg mechanic is like comparing apples with pears...
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 3:30 PM by Sepplord
    inoeth wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 12:32 PM
    actually on average the spike dmg is higher now, just the number of crits decreased. so in fact crits are more rare but have higher value, before it was alot more consistant.
    btw comparing crits with svg mechanic is like comparing apples with pears...

    uhh what?
    the average spike?


    neither do crits on average have more dmg, nor are the spikes higher now

    The maximum possible dmg (aka the spike) was reduced, and the total average dmg was kept the same (initially)
    Then they noticed that "lethal-spikes" as they defined it (how, is unknown to us) happened too often, and nerfed the critrate so these "lethal-spikes" happen as often as before.
    So, when average dmg of crits is the same, but the rate is nerfed...then average dmg is nerfed.

    In 8vs8 the amount of unhealable lethal spikes might be as before, but outside of those lethal spikes healing meleedmg still got easier and less manaintensiv (because on average dmg is lowered, aka less HP have to be healed), and people not fighting in the top-level 8vs8 fights, where consistent melee dmg also leads to kills were simply nerfed with a dmg reduction of the consistent dmg
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 6:30 PM by inoeth
    Sepplord wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 3:30 PM
    inoeth wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 12:32 PM
    actually on average the spike dmg is higher now, just the number of crits decreased. so in fact crits are more rare but have higher value, before it was alot more consistant.
    btw comparing crits with svg mechanic is like comparing apples with pears...

    uhh what?
    the average spike?


    neither do crits on average have more dmg, nor are the spikes higher now

    The maximum possible dmg (aka the spike) was reduced, and the total average dmg was kept the same (initially)
    Then they noticed that "lethal-spikes" as they defined it (how, is unknown to us) happened too often, and nerfed the critrate so these "lethal-spikes" happen as often as before.
    So, when average dmg of crits is the same, but the rate is nerfed...then average dmg is nerfed.

    In 8vs8 the amount of unhealable lethal spikes might be as before, but outside of those lethal spikes healing meleedmg still got easier and less manaintensiv (because on average dmg is lowered, aka less HP have to be healed), and people not fighting in the top-level 8vs8 fights, where consistent melee dmg also leads to kills were simply nerfed with a dmg reduction of the consistent dmg

    crits used to crit for like 10 dmg alot... now they always hit for 30% which feels alot more like a spike
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 11:24 PM by Tyrlaan
    Crit RAs are pretty worthless on this server, I don´t bother with them on any character. Even MoP/WP 9 is +25% crit chance with 30% extra damage or 30/4=7.5% extra damage (for 34 RSPs or 3.5 realm ranks) and very non-spikey compared to what they´re supposed to be. You don´t have to be a math genius to pick MoM or the Aug RAs instead and just settle with the base 10% crit chance.
    Fri 10 Jul 2020 7:58 AM by Sepplord
    inoeth wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 6:30 PM
    crits used to crit for like 10 dmg alot... now they always hit for 30% which feels alot more like a spike

    They also used to crit for 48%-50% bonus dmg "a lot" (well at least just as much as they hit for 10)... and that is a much bigger spike than 30%
    Fri 10 Jul 2020 8:52 AM by gotwqqd
    Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 11:24 PM
    Crit RAs are pretty worthless on this server, I don´t bother with them on any character. Even MoP/WP 9 is +25% crit chance with 30% extra damage or 30/4=7.5% extra damage (for 34 RSPs or 3.5 realm ranks) and very non-spikey compared to what they´re supposed to be. You don´t have to be a math genius to pick MoM or the Aug RAs instead and just settle with the base 10% crit chance.
    This
    Unless you have no other choice to spend your RA points on don’t bother with crit bump
    Fri 10 Jul 2020 10:41 AM by Sepplord
    Casters have a easily comparable RA with MoM...

    Melees "only" have Aug-stats right?
    Which is hard to compare...has anyone done the math on comparing Aug-str (for example) to MoP?

    especially weaponlines that are 50/50 str/dex should still be going MoP don't they?
    Sun 12 Jul 2020 1:51 PM by Tyrlaan
    Sepplord wrote: ↑
    Fri 10 Jul 2020 10:41 AM
    Casters have a easily comparable RA with MoM...

    Melees "only" have Aug-stats right?
    Which is hard to compare...has anyone done the math on comparing Aug-str (for example) to MoP?

    especially weaponlines that are 50/50 str/dex should still be going MoP don't they?

    You´re right that melees don´t have something like MoM. However, even for casters MoM is just part of dps, AugDex/MoArt and AugAcu are as important and have other benefits too (quicker application of effects, power pool). Likewise for melee, Aug RAs not only increase damage but WS too... or defenses... or AugQui/MoArms lets you apply stun/snares/procs more often, even after debuffs. WP/MoP is just damage, and really bad at increasing it (half of what MoM does, that´s ridiculous). Tanks have to spend 22 RSPs just on Determination, and most also have active RAs to spend points on even if very high RR.

    There used to be a few special cases where WP was beneficial:
    - It makes hybrid DDs crit, however the extra damage is still half of what MoM provides (+7.5% at WP9 vs. +15% at MoM9) and MoM is a much better investment not only for its damage on DDs but because it also increases weapon/armor LT proc, DoT proc and poison damage (which don´t gain a crit chance by WP).
    - It makes DoT spells crit, allowing to overwrite somebody else´s DoT when AoE DoTting. However at WP9 in 25% of the cases you would apply your higher crit DoT while in 75% of the cases (or targets affected) somebody with these points put into MoM would have his DoT ticking. If you can spam you might affect more targets after some time.

    For Reavers and VWs, Aug RAs also increase style proc damage by increasing WS. MoP/WP (and Dual Threat with its +14%/+14% instead of their +25% crit chance, as bad as it has always been) does nothing for those.

    TL;DR There are a lot of other RAs with much better ROI before I would actually consider taking crit RAs.
    Sun 12 Jul 2020 2:29 PM by Cadebrennus
    Sepplord wrote: ↑
    Fri 10 Jul 2020 10:41 AM
    Casters have a easily comparable RA with MoM...

    Melees "only" have Aug-stats right?
    Which is hard to compare...has anyone done the math on comparing Aug-str (for example) to MoP?

    especially weaponlines that are 50/50 str/dex should still be going MoP don't they?

    While Aug Dex only has a 50% benefit to a Thrust/Pierce weapon line it also has defensive benefits (as well as benefiting Shield offense/defense) which Aug Str doesn't have.
    Mon 13 Jul 2020 4:31 AM by jhaerik
    inoeth wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 6:30 PM
    Sepplord wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 3:30 PM
    inoeth wrote: ↑
    Thu 9 Jul 2020 12:32 PM
    actually on average the spike dmg is higher now, just the number of crits decreased. so in fact crits are more rare but have higher value, before it was alot more consistant.
    btw comparing crits with svg mechanic is like comparing apples with pears...

    uhh what?
    the average spike?


    neither do crits on average have more dmg, nor are the spikes higher now

    The maximum possible dmg (aka the spike) was reduced, and the total average dmg was kept the same (initially)
    Then they noticed that "lethal-spikes" as they defined it (how, is unknown to us) happened too often, and nerfed the critrate so these "lethal-spikes" happen as often as before.
    So, when average dmg of crits is the same, but the rate is nerfed...then average dmg is nerfed.

    In 8vs8 the amount of unhealable lethal spikes might be as before, but outside of those lethal spikes healing meleedmg still got easier and less manaintensiv (because on average dmg is lowered, aka less HP have to be healed), and people not fighting in the top-level 8vs8 fights, where consistent melee dmg also leads to kills were simply nerfed with a dmg reduction of the consistent dmg

    crits used to crit for like 10 dmg alot... now they always hit for 30% which feels alot more like a spike

    It's the opposite of a "spike." It's a less frequent chance to hit for the same maximun you could already hit for before.

    If you take 4 melee hits for 300 at a 25% crit rate you'll generally see one crit for 450 with max MoP.
    In the same situation with old MoP you'd see two hits do anywhere from 310 to 450.
    One is spikier.
    Mon 13 Jul 2020 8:38 AM by Sepplord
    jhaerik wrote: ↑
    Mon 13 Jul 2020 4:31 AM
    If you take 4 melee hits for 300 at a 25% crit rate you'll generally see one crit for 390 with max MoP.
    In the same situation with old MoP you'd see two hits do anywhere from 310 to 450.
    One is spikier.

    Max crit is now 30%, so only 390 now (aside from zerkstance which is special)
    Mon 13 Jul 2020 10:40 AM by Noashakra
    It's funny how they wanted crit to feel more special, by making them kind of useless and less special.
    I never understood what was the thought process for this.
    I think the dev are doing a really good job overall, but on some points I am like what?
    Thu 23 Jul 2020 2:25 PM by gruenesschaf
    Noashakra wrote: ↑
    Mon 13 Jul 2020 10:40 AM
    It's funny how they wanted crit to feel more special, by making them kind of useless and less special.
    I never understood what was the thought process for this.
    I think the dev are doing a really good job overall, but on some points I am like what?

    The primary driver behind that change was to reduce the chance of crits provided by mopain/wp and to also remove the rng of the damage %, both of those things remained. Initially, after simming with faulty data, it looked like we could keep the average current damage by having mopain / wp raise the crit damage %, however, that was not the case as the lethal spikes observed ingame were a lot more frequent due to the simming error -> crit damage increase was removed from ras and what we have no is the OF mopain/wp gains.
    In the end, this makes wp/mopain worse as a means to increase the consistent dps compared to mom but it is still viable as it is pretty much the only way to increase the spikes / spike frequency. Before this change wp and mopain were no brainer choices as they were just the single best choice to increase both, consistent dps and spikes making ras like mom just filler. In general, there is now a much greater variety in specs as things like aom and pd are picked up a lot more frequently as well now.
    Thu 23 Jul 2020 9:49 PM by Noashakra
    I have the opposite feeling. Now everyone spec in MoArms in the stealth war.
    For mages, everyone goes for acuity and MoM.
    95% of the people don't bother to invest more than MoP/WP 2.

    And crit are not specials anymore, I am not excited to check my logs looking for how much I did. You said it was your goal, and I feel you achieved the opposite.
    Fri 24 Jul 2020 7:42 AM by Sepplord
    And while the explanation makes sense on paper for mages where is a melees equivalent to MoM?
    Fri 24 Jul 2020 8:29 AM by Valaraukar
    Sepplord wrote: ↑
    Fri 24 Jul 2020 7:42 AM
    And while the explanation makes sense on paper for mages where is a melees equivalent to MoM?


    in a Caster-wise server like this it would seem an ironic question
    And again the class that suffered most this change is.... BD (what a surprise eh?) because the only way to add damage to pets (the primary source of damage for a Dark BD) was Wild Minion and now it is totally screwed, making BDs less strong in PvE and completely useless in RvR if not for TWF and Bedazzling

    From what I can read in Grueneschaf words Wild Minion has been completly forgotten, since it is not mentioned at all, therefore they completely forgot an entire class/spec (and remeber it when it takes to be nerfed of course)
    Wed 29 Jul 2020 11:37 AM by Noashakra
    Completly useless in RVR, that's why all mid 8mans have one...
    Stop taking flags with 5fg, it disconnects your from reality.
    Wed 29 Jul 2020 12:05 PM by Valaraukar
    Noashakra wrote: ↑
    Wed 29 Jul 2020 11:37 AM
    Completly useless in RVR, that's why all mid 8mans have one...
    Stop taking flags with 5fg, it disconnects your from reality.

    I swear this is the last time that I waste my time replying to you.... but just have a look at these links:


    https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=last-week&filter=caster

    https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=last-week&filter=midgard

    And tell us, my dear, how many BD do you see in the first 50 server casters chars? I can tell you if you have yet to learn to count to 50: ZERO, the first one for weekly RP in the last week is at number 51. The same guy is at number 49 amongst Mid classes.

    So please,, say again how many BDs are running with Mid groups in RvR?
    Wed 29 Jul 2020 12:43 PM by Ele
    Valaraukar wrote: ↑
    Wed 29 Jul 2020 12:05 PM
    Noashakra wrote: ↑
    Wed 29 Jul 2020 11:37 AM
    Completly useless in RVR, that's why all mid 8mans have one...
    Stop taking flags with 5fg, it disconnects your from reality.

    I swear this is the last time that I waste my time replying to you.... but just have a look at these links:


    https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=last-week&filter=caster

    https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/realmpoints?time-frame=last-week&filter=midgard

    And tell us, my dear, how many BD do you see in the first 50 server casters chars? I can tell you if you have yet to learn to count to 50: ZERO, the first one for weekly RP in the last week is at number 51. The same guy is at number 49 amongst Mid classes.

    So please,, say again how many BDs are running with Mid groups in RvR?

    Good point. Even when you scroll down further the list, into the 150's, you don't see many mid casters, especially bd's. Although I have to say that the numbers of rps/week are really high, to a point that even a player like Soviets, who is bd in Premade, the group with possibly the best win/loss ratio that is running often, shows up at #117. So it's pretty clear that mid casters/bds make less rps, although it is not possible to derive the time investement out of the herald. A lot of players, especially in the top 50 region, are known to play a lot, so time as a factor is missing.
    On the other hand, Noashakra has a point, as most roaming mid groups - regardless of 8mans or not - tend to run with a bd. That being said, the times when bds could rely on their pets as a main source of dmg are gone since the (necassary) nerf, long before the crit changes, and even when they could, you'd take the pets dmg as a bonus, as the main role of a bd was and is interupt and help bursting down targets with nukes by assisting the tanks or another caster.
    Wed 29 Jul 2020 8:54 PM by Noashakra
    lol the herald just show the poeple who play the most. Where are the healers/sham in the top 50?
    Do RM see a lot of 8vs8? Because there are 4 in the top 50... You argument is so dumb.

    Let's check the numbers EU prime time
    https://ibb.co/8B0SPQL
    Ah yeah.... More bd than eld
    You don't have to reply man, you will avoid to be ridiculous this way. I we are roaming right now, and there was 1 BD in each mid group we fought tonight.
    Thu 30 Jul 2020 7:26 AM by Sepplord
    rangers must be the most OP 8vs8 class
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